October 10, 2025 • 31 mins
Exploring Emotional Literacy and Attachment Styles
In this episode of Real Men Feel, host Andy Grant delves into the crucial topic of emotional literacy with guest Alexandra Velez, creator of Secure School. They discuss the importance of recognizing, naming, and navigating emotions as a foundation for emotional intelligence, and how these skills significantly impact personal and relational well-being. Alexandra provides insights into how early life experiences and societal norms shape emotional development, particularly for men.
The conversation also touches on attachment styles, their origins, and how individuals can transform their attachment patterns to foster healthier relationships. Practical tools like the emotion wheel are suggested for better emotional management. Alexandra highlights the need for emotional education from an early age to prevent future relational and emotional challenges.
00:00 Introduction to Real Men Feel
00:40 Meet Alexandra Velez: Emotional Literacy Expert
01:18 Understanding Emotional Literacy vs. Emotional Intelligence
02:06 The Importance of Emotional Literacy in Daily Life
04:46 Overcoming Emotional Illiteracy
08:40 Practical Tools for Emotional Literacy
12:24 Attachment Styles Explained
17:57 The Role of Technology in Emotional Literacy
19:45 The Vision for Emotional Literacy Education
23:26 Challenges Men Face in Developing Emotional Literacy
25:53 The Availability Awards: Recognizing Emotional Unavailability
29:49 Final Thoughts and Where to Learn More
Connect with Alexandra
Alexandra Velez → http://www.mysecureera.com/Love Pattern Report → https://www.mysecureera.com/lovepattern
Instagram → https://www.instagram.com/alexandravelezofficial/
YouTube → https://www.youtube.com/@AlexandraVelezOfficial
Resources
The Availability Awards by Alexandra Velez — https://amzn.to/4nUVqSg
Connect with Andy and the Real Men Feel Podcast:
Join me and connect with other like-minded men in the
Authentic AF Community | http://realmenfeel.org/group
Instagram | @realmenfeelshow & @theandygrant
Andy Grant Website | https://theandygrant.com for coaching, healing, and book info!
Real Men Feel Website | http://realmenfeel.org
YouTube | https://youtube.com/realmenfeel
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
That's part of the human experience.
Men should totally allow themselves to experience the
more vulnerable rages of those emotions without change, without
inner criticism and supporting each other with with kindness.
Because I think a lot of times here is reinforced ideas around
what's allowed and what's even allowed.
(00:20):
Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel.
I'm your host, author, coach andhealer Andy Grant.
Visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me.
On this show, we have conversations that most men are
not having, but that all men andthe women who love them can
benefit from. Today we're delving into
emotional literacy, the essential skill of recognizing,
naming, and navigating your emotions.
(00:40):
My guest is Alexandra Velez, creator of Secure School, a
neuroscience backed program thathelps people shift towards a
more secure attachment style, one skill at a time.
She's here to share how emotional literacy is the
foundation for emotional intelligence and why no one
should have to silently strugglewith mental health.
And if you're craving more real connection with other men, check
(01:02):
out Authentic AF, my free onlinecommunity at
realmenfeel.org/group. There is no need to suffer in
silence. Let's do it.
Hello Alexandra, and welcome to Real Men Feel.
Thank you so much, Andy. I'm so happy to be here today.
You describe emotional literacy as a prerequisite for emotional
(01:23):
intelligence. Can you explain the difference
between the two? So emotional literacy focuses on
the ability to be able to identify emotion, expressed
emotion. And emotional intelligence feels
like it leads on that other foundation because it takes it
(01:44):
to the next level by helping people to apply emotional
literacy in a variety of different contexts and
environment. So it's to move with greater
skill and precision with emotions.
Yeah, this is what it makes sense.
So do do some people try to justjump into intelligence without
being able to know what emotionsare to begin with?
(02:05):
Absolutely. You know, sometimes, you know,
people, I feel like they're justgoing through the motion of what
normal life is. And sometimes after going
through these interactions, theymight think themselves, oh, that
didn't go as I had planned. And, you know, they may lack the
certain language around their emotions.
Like, oh, I was feeling anxious at the time or actually I was
(02:26):
still under the weight of something heavier earlier today.
That to be able to connect the thoughts between how they're
feeling and how they show up in the context of relationships.
And so they may lack language around what they're feeling or
lack the the vulnerability and safety particulate how they're
feeling because they might be self censoring so that they
(02:49):
manage perception during an interaction.
So ultimately people might not feel fully vulnerable and safe
enough to express themselves andthey may bypass emotional
literacy and just go straight into judgment or conclusion.
So it's like that didn't go as planned or or make judgments
(03:10):
about the other person of like oh they're XYZ type of person if
they did this to me. So it's already more in the
conclusion phase than the self reflection phase.
Got it, you. So yeah.
So if if I'm not aware of what'sgoing on within me, I could
easily just start labeling and blaming everybody around me.
(03:30):
Exactly. So what first drew drew you into
studying emotional and relational intelligence?
I feel like so much of this comes from the score of life and
learning through painful trial and error.
And ultimately, I feel like the human experience is so vast and
(03:52):
complex. It's a topic where there's
infinite possibilities with learning and understanding it.
And so, you know, this just cameout of my personal passion.
Over the course of ten years, I read over more than 400 books on
the topic of psychology and personal development.
And to say obsessed is probably an understatement because I just
(04:15):
find this topic so interesting. But I think I was going on my
own journey of figuring out, youknow, what have my life
experiences been and how have that they have to turn to just
observing other relationship dynamics unfold.
So ultimately, I feel very anxious about helping people
shorten their learning curves because I'm overreached.
(04:35):
It's taken decades of 1000 yearsto get to where I'm at today.
And I'd love to help before shorten their learning curve.
The left they could beat are beard and wider as result.
Why do you think so many people grow up without any sort of
education around emotional literacy?
Well, for one thing, we don't see it sometimes modeled in our
(04:56):
home environments. So some of us have inherited
emotionally unintelligent parents or and mostly immature
parents. So we don't have that
psychological privilege built into our household where we grew
up need to be behaviors modeled for us.
So we also see that all too often we're handed gender norms
(05:19):
and scripts around work acceptable or unacceptable.
It's just kind of like the earlystages of where emotional
literacy starts to lag. You know, I mean early age, many
boys are ought to be silent or suppress their emotion or to not
really know that they're impacted by the how they start
(05:41):
to learn how to armor out into how much manage when they feel
hurt or stammered. And there's a moment that I I
distinctly remember it started as something as like as ordinary
as they have the grocery store. I were in the checkout line
about to pay for my persons. And there was this, you know,
(06:01):
father and son, in fact, the lion also waiting to check out.
And the little boy, he's been like 3 or 4 years old, sweet and
instant and tender. And at the same time he's
carried at the grocery store. And, you know, he, he's kind of
looking towards his father for comfort, but his father, he's
(06:21):
kind of feeling angry and patient like his son is an
inconvenience in that moment. And I saw him grab him by his
little arm and drag him to this little register stand because
the little boy was just being uncooperative.
And it's that little moment where I thought it's
(06:41):
heartbreaking to see this scene unfold.
But at the on the flip side, we see that that little boy was
starting to internalize certain messages like his father, the
person he loves and starts, but also be the very person who
beats him or is not a safe person or actually penalize him
(07:02):
for buying in public. And it just shows that little
boys, sometimes as early as three or four years old, are
already being handed stretch around.
You know, boys don't cry or, youknow, if you cry in public,
you'll get whooped or stanked. And it's kind of heartbreaking
because, you know, there's so many ways he could have handled
(07:24):
that dynamic. But in that moment, anger,
impatience was kind of leading the momentum of that specific
scenario. And you know, it just starts to
cement ideas around concept of what it means to be a fan that's
ultimately stunt emotional literacy later on.
(07:46):
Ideally, what what would that have farther done to really
support his his son? One of the things they could
have done was just approach him more on his level and attempt to
explain to him in that moment that even though he was upset
about something, that they wouldn't even walk together
(08:08):
towards the register together because they needed to check
out. And in just having a little bit
of a moment of connection while showing patience and talking to
him in a soothing, reassuring fashion.
But have reversed the tears in the 1st place by allowing him to
feel pained, understood and appreciated by his father just
(08:31):
enough to suit him so that he could cooperate willingly and
not have to be dragged to the register in a rather full
fashion. So for someone who's listening
now as an adult and struggles toname or express their own
emotions, what are some practical steps to move towards
(08:52):
literacy? One of the tools that I find to
be so helpful is to have something like an emotion reel.
It's basically like a pie chart and it has all of these
different emotions. It starts off with basic ones
like beers, fat it's and other emotions.
And then it breaks it down into secondary emotions and tertiary
(09:13):
emotions. And sometimes just having a
visual reference helps you to godeeper and then need your
reactions like I'm really angry.Well, if you if you drill down
to a secondary level, that angermight actually be something
else. And if you drill down to a third
level, it might be something else different.
And so the more specific you are, the more clear the problem
(09:36):
and solution become. And sometimes anger is just the
primary motion. It's a cover or a front.
And if you peel back the layer, you see, actually anger is the
acceptable outward expression and math badness.
Sometimes being the four wheel helps you see, OK, my primary
(09:58):
motion might be this, but actually I'm also doing this.
And funny enough, I, I think that's why I love the movie
Inside Out and 1:00 and 2:00 because it, it just shows how so
much of our human experience caneasily be a fusion of emotions.
Or having a tool like an emotionwheel can just help you to take
(10:20):
it out of your head and put it in visual format so you could
start to label a name. And that gives you clarity.
And sometimes just validating your alleged experience is a
form of self soothing and it it helps you to have a different
degree of clarity of which to solve problems.
Yeah, I see the lot in a lot of the the men that I coach that
(10:42):
they're quick to name an emotion.
And it's like the one or two emotions that were allowable as
children. So again, often for a minute
it's anger. But then, yeah, underneath that
anger, what, what else are you feeling?
Or if if you could explore deeper than that, or if you
could imagine which started the anger, what was there?
And yeah, so that idea that there's, there's the primary
emotion, there's the emotion we're able or willing to show,
(11:03):
and then there's the truth. Absolutely.
How do you see a healthy emotional literacy impacting
people in their day-to-day lives?
Like where? Where does it show up most?
Well, because some of it, it's kind of like a dual topic where
on one level the emotional literacy is happening
(11:23):
internally, but it's also happening externally.
So it's twofold. And internally it's just
noticing your own feelings. Like you go through the day,
like let's say in the morning routine, you feel like you're
rushing through the actions because you're just like
furrying to get out the door to make it on time to work.
But then it could be all the little interaction like meeting
(11:44):
your Co worker in the morning and just kind of like summing up
your perception of how they're doing.
Like are they tired? Are they angry?
Are they feeling stressed and just observing their emotions
from the external perception? It's a way of intern, you know,
managing how you relate to that that morning, you know, if
they're sad, you might face, youmight check in.
(12:06):
If they're feeling stressed, youmight ask them about what's
going on. And sometimes that just relates
to how the interaction itself ison full range.
So it's it's internal and it's external and it's infarcting the
the emotions we're able to name and express as we interact with
others. Now you do a lot of work with
(12:26):
attachment styles. Can you kind of unpack what
attachment styles are and why they're so important?
Star basically, the vast majority of us have basically
been imprinted with how we relate to others.
And attachment theory basically establishes that there are 4
categories in which people usually fall into.
(12:50):
About 50% of the population is under the umbrella of secure
attachment. This typically represents
someone, if you're had grown up with a lot of emotional
intelligence in their household.So they've seen this modelled
through parents, caregivers and other influential people and
(13:10):
they've internalized these ideas.
So as they go forth into the world, they're able to kind of
like intuitively create healthy relationships.
They know how to express their emotions.
So they get checked boxes for emotional literacy, emotional
intelligence, and they're just naturally able to not only have
relationships but have successful relationships, the
kind that are happy, healthy, and last many years.
(13:33):
On the flip side, the other for 50% of the population have an
insecure attachment style and they usually fall into one of
three buckets. One could be anxious attachment,
the other is fearful avoidance and your next one is dismissive
avoided. So the anxious person typically
has a lot of self limiting beliefs around child.
(13:54):
They relate to others that are all stemming from anxiety from a
lot of times they're carrying fears and securities wounds that
make them more anxious in the context of relationships than
when we look at fearful avoidance.
They're like a hybrid of the dismissive type and the anxious
type. And usually these people have
had a lot of altered adversity and maybe so common in their
(14:17):
history that make them a mixtureor fusion of anxious and
dismissive with dismissive avoidance.
What we often see in that there's a fear around being in
relationships because they associate it with having to be
vulnerable or you know, they don't feel comfortable
expressing their emotion and it's making avoidance often
(14:39):
struggle to have long term healthy relationships because
you know, their emotional conditioning are taught them
that casual relationships or transactional relationships are
easier and better. So these types typically
struggle with having successful long term relationships because
(14:59):
of how they've been faked and molded many times because of
their early life experiences. So is the attachment style that
we create used the most growing up?
Is that our style for the rest of our lives?
No, it's not. All too often, like so many
things in life, you know, we canimprove for the better through
(15:22):
intentional information change and fix and fee.
And so much of what we can become ultimately is the
byproduct of intentional efforts.
So once you have clarity on yourattachment style, you can start
to see, OK, here are the insecurities that are kind of
driving my perception and how I interact with others and then
(15:43):
start to intentionally have corrective experiences where you
can begin to upscale and close those gaps.
So, and let's imagine someone should have three or four major
insecurities that get in the wayof those healthy relationships.
They can start to unpack that and peel back the layers to see,
OK, this is a series of experiences that have influenced
(16:06):
this insecurity. Let's start to systematically
and methodically work through them so that both insecurities
no longer define identity or self perception.
And once those insecurities havedialed down substantially, they
don't have the same power and grip as they need.
Chennai. And then that in turn makes room
(16:26):
for healthier perception, healthier behaviors which are
conducive for long term healthy copy relationships.
So is that in an essence what you're secure school is doing?
Oh, absolutely. It's very much a process of
helping people to learn to that are often missing because a lot
(16:48):
of us don't learn relational intelligence growing up, right?
I think one of my my passions isI would love to see emotional
intelligence and relational intelligence taught K through 12
and and college, because all we relate to others is an essential
part of our happiness. And it's just one of those
(17:08):
topics that gets, you know, undercharged and it just
produces natural output. You know, if, if we applied the
logic to any other topic like math or science or English, you
didn't have that in your experience for 1520 years of
your life, you know, that creates a, a natural gap.
But because emotional intelligence, relational
(17:29):
intelligence are, are learnable topics and skills that can be
formed. It's just a matter of closing
the gap between what we don't know and what we do know.
And by going through a structured falsess, we're able
to not only learn, but apply andthen iterate and prove and so
that it's integrated into our identity and not just a
(17:51):
fascinating fact. We want to take that fun.
Alexandra, I know you have a background in high tech.
I wonder how do you see technology currently helping or
harming our collective emotionalliteracy?
That is that a fascinating topicbecause I have long felt that
psychology and technology overlap and we we're trying to
(18:12):
see this in healthy and unhealthy directions, right?
Like for for many of our our cell phone, it's always prevent
arm's reach or there's always that insatiable little bitch to
check our phones, whether it's notifications or going back and
forth between acts we love to years or on some level that
could be disruptive. You know, or like so many things
(18:35):
in life, it's not a spectrum. The overuse of technology is
harmful. You know, it could impact self
esteem. It could in progress through
absorbing vicarious experiences because you know, all of this
information and sometimes be hurtful just to Russian it.
It creates the important a need to really know about like media
(18:58):
literacy to kind of monitor and regulate what you watch and what
you don't watch. So I think this most plays out,
I guess, for us in the context of, you know, dating apps where
people are using dating apps in hopes for finding a romantic
partner and these experiences from death, crazy, a big stag
where some people experience good results and some people
(19:20):
don't. At the same time, when you look
at how dating apps are built, they're definitely fine to
optimize for things that aren't necessarily aligned with a
healthy relationship. Naturally become a matter of how
we use the tool and also how theperson navigates those
(19:42):
experiences so that they're moreconstructive and helpful.
So you shared that your grand vision and hope for the world
was all of us being taught emotional literacy in in
elementary school. What would the world look like
if humans were taught, along with reading and writing,
emotional literacy? My hope is that it would
(20:04):
ultimately lead and less heartbreak, less dysfunction,
healthy relationships in general.
Because, you know, I think sometimes after kids hit
puberty, they get curious and they Start learning from their
peers and asking questions. And sometimes they don't want to
ask their parents, but they're asking their peers.
And it's kind of like the blind reading the blind.
(20:25):
Not necessarily good information, but what I envision
is people would just be healthier and happier and they
would have to wait until their mid 20s, mid 30s, mid 40s to
figure out, oh, here are the thesadly avoidable heartbreak I
could have avoided had I just known these things, what it
(20:47):
takes to create a healthy relationship.
And because they just didn't know any better.
They're they're just kind of learning as they go through
trial and error. You know, I think ultimately so
many of these we just read heartbreak and suffering
selected ways. You know, sometimes with certain
topics like math or science, youcan just objectively see, you
(21:07):
know, you know, 1 + 1 is true. But what if we had the
equivalent of of emotional intelligence in our curriculum
and classes so that people wouldjust fundamentally de
personalize some of the things required?
You know, they can understand things with depth and nuance.
And I think people will be kinder to each other and wiser
(21:29):
too. It's it's fascinating when you
look outside of the United States, like in countries like
Denmark, sometimes kids get multiple years of education
around empathy and surprise survive.
The rate of bullying goes down, too.
And when you think about how so much of mental health is
impacted because peers are boring or criticizing, you know,
(21:53):
that in itself can be helpful tothose middle school students or
high school students where kids being mean to each other is
just, you know, kids being kids.But naturally if they knew
better and generally had different beliefs and values, I
think they would just behave better and it would just be of a
(22:14):
more natural outcome. Because cause of the fact if if
you understand emotional intelligence, it might
constantly be affected, you do better.
And if you do better, we'll add cascading benefit to the
individual, but offer their their sphere of influence.
Yeah, so it's really uneducated kids being uneducated kids.
Absolutely. And I kind of remember years
(22:35):
ago, I was a mentor at a middle school, and I was walking down
the hallway, you know, from the time I checked in to like, the
library where I was going to meet the students.
And of course, the school walls were plastered with like, those
little chirotypical posters bully people.
And I was walking down the hallway.
I could hear the kid, you know, just like being mean to each
other, taunting and teaching. I'm like, there's such a gap
(22:58):
right now between that inspirational poster on the wall
and what's unfolding right now in a period break as the kids
are just, you know, surging downthis hallway to make it to their
next clash. And part of me is like,
motivational posters only go so far.
And it's it's not until like this kind of content is
(23:18):
mainstream and embedded into core curriculum that I think
meaningful change can actually be seen because a poster low,
low cut. What do you see as the biggest
barrier that men face in developing emotional illiteracy?
No, they they have emotional illiteracy.
What do you see is a barrier developing emotional literacy
(23:38):
and what can be done to overcomethat?
If we look at the barriers on, on some level, it's it's it's
stomach and, and multifaceted for sure.
And if we start to take it layerby layer, it it's first allowing
oneself to be more comfortable with the range of emotions and,
(23:59):
you know, challenging for the limiting script and outdated
narratives that say, you know, men should only do these kinds
of things and just broaden it because it's a human experience.
And kind of what makes me laugh is the idea that when you look
at emojis on a keyboard, there are many emojis that express
different feelings. And I think that's part of the
(24:20):
human experience. Men should totally allow
themselves to experience the more vulnerable rages of those
emotions without change, withoutinner criticism and and
supporting each other with with kindness.
Because I think a lot of times here is reinforced ideas around
what's allowed and what's even allowed, though, you know, I
(24:42):
think of imagery like, you know,let's imagine kids are playing
baseball and one kid flies and he's right for himself and his
peers were gone to see his reaction.
And if he even tries to like silence, a little silent tear or
they might be on looking once it's just being unfolding and
(25:04):
just kind of ridicule him. Like, did you see that?
I think he's crying. And then cue the collected
laughter. So we have the shame, the blame,
the ridiculing. It's kind of like, no, no, no,
no. You know, we we need to
acknowledge that sometimes painful things are and it's OK
to express emotion. And so I see it as giving
permission to oneself, but also giving other other men an
(25:27):
opportunity to be vulnerable andnot have it ridicilized or
ridiculed because sometimes those scripts are still
unfolding. So making it days internally,
but also one-on-one and also eventually in another larger
spaces because we need to model it, but also give space for
(25:49):
other people to be authentic with their human experience.
Golfer. Tell me about the availability
awards. Oh yeah, this, this is the fun
project that I recently wrapped up, and it's basically inspired
by dating experiences that are so common inside of the context
of dating apps. So whether it's Bumble or Tinder
(26:11):
or any other the major dating apps, all too often when people
enter these realms, they're bound to find people who are not
relationship ready. And we put them under the
category of emotionally unavailable.
So when someone is emotionally unavailable, they ultimately are
(26:31):
lacking emotional literacy, emotional intelligence and
relational intelligence. So they're unable to sustain a
healthy relationship. And what this book does is it
basically explains the many varieties of emotional
unavailability and then what makes them attractive, what
makes them hurtful and start to pivot towards not using these
(26:54):
types of individuals. Because as you can imagine, you
know, when people pick their ownpartner, it seems frailing too,
heartbreak, but also turn lost wish the wrong person.
And sometimes it's just a matterof strengthening art and
recognition and certain values. So that's being used very Army
(27:16):
type. Just he'll get to move forward
into one's heart. And Chad and just it are like a
framework for understanding who's relationship writing,
who's not. Alexandra, what's one thing that
you wish more men knew? I think I want more men to know
(27:36):
that they will be loved and cherished and accepted for their
full health by women who appreciate them for their whole
humanity. I I think sometimes so much of
self management and self preservation, I don't steal
(27:57):
armor and layer and not showing vulnerability leads to gap and
understanding and compassion. Sometimes just having that safe
space inside of a relationship can just feel hard and be so
restored, and it's just a matterof having those healthy
(28:18):
relationships where feeling and really charged louder because
it's a psychologically safe environment.
Being emotionally unavailable isnormally something get gets
assigned to men. Do you see women in that same
position? Absolutely.
You know, one of the things thatthat always comes to mind to me
is that our partner is a mirror of ourselves.
(28:41):
When we look at a mirror, it, itechoes back exactly what's in
its reflection, right. So when a woman picks an emotion
unavailable partner, it reflectson her own emotional unavailable
too. So all too often when people
share their stories, they're blaming, right?
They're pointing the figure out the other person.
They did this, they did that. And if you had seen how they
(29:03):
treated me there. And so they're crafting this
narrative that's very one sided,right?
But if we look out the other side of the coin, when someone
over functions, overworks, over gives, it's coming from an
insecurity, a wound of fear and insecure parchment style.
So in their own way they are unlike equal and opposites or
(29:26):
yin Yang like they're both emotionally unavailable, but
it's just playing out in different ways.
One might one partner might be pulling away and the other one
is chasing. And so they're both insecure,
but the outward presentation of their emotional unavailability
is presenting differently. But at the core, they're both
(29:47):
emotionally unavailable. So Alexandra, where can people
go to learn more about your workand connect with you?
But you'd like to learn more about my upcoming work, you're
welcome to follow me on YouTube.My handle is my secure era.
I have a collection of our interactive sessions that are
coming up where I will be using Sigma and Miro and on dissect
(30:13):
different topics in the world ofpeople still on charges that
will be like short form videos, maybe 5 to 15 minutes.
So you're curious to learn more about emotional literacy,
emotional intelligence, relational intelligence.
We'll have a wonderful theories there to chill into to learn
more about these topics are free.
(30:33):
Awesome. Well, thanks for all the work
that you're doing and exploring yourself, sharing all that and
therefore helping everyone to explore and strengthen their
emotional health. And yeah, it's it's it's so true
in so many areas that when each of us are willing to do that
inner work, it just radiates outand changes our relationship,
(30:53):
then changes our community, and eventually we can really change
the world. Absolutely.
But being that is perfectly sad.So many of us can reach the
single point of change that has cascading benefits in multiple
areas of life and in multiple relationships.
And when we collectively work together, we can make the world
a better place. And it just parts are changing
(31:15):
one part at a time. Thanks for listening to Real Men
Feel Big thank you to my guest, Alexandra Velez.
You can learn more about her work at my secureera.com.
If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe,
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(31:35):
connection in the authentic AF community at
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yourself.
That's part of the human experience.
Men should totally allow themselves to experience the
more vulnerable rages of those emotions without change, without
inner criticism and supporting each other with with kindness.
Because I think a lot of times here is reinforced ideas around
what's allowed and what's even allowed.
(00:20):
Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel.
I'm your host, author, coach andhealer Andy Grant.
Visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me.
On this show, we have conversations that most men are
not having, but that all men andthe women who love them can
benefit from. Today we're delving into
emotional literacy, the essential skill of recognizing,
naming, and navigating your emotions.
(00:40):
My guest is Alexandra Velez, creator of Secure School, a
neuroscience backed program thathelps people shift towards a
more secure attachment style, one skill at a time.
She's here to share how emotional literacy is the
foundation for emotional intelligence and why no one
should have to silently strugglewith mental health.
And if you're craving more real connection with other men, check
(01:02):
out Authentic AF, my free onlinecommunity at
realmenfeel.org/group. There is no need to suffer in
silence. Let's do it.
Hello Alexandra, and welcome to Real Men Feel.
Thank you so much, Andy. I'm so happy to be here today.
You describe emotional literacy as a prerequisite for emotional
(01:23):
intelligence. Can you explain the difference
between the two? So emotional literacy focuses on
the ability to be able to identify emotion, expressed
emotion. And emotional intelligence feels
like it leads on that other foundation because it takes it
(01:44):
to the next level by helping people to apply emotional
literacy in a variety of different contexts and
environment. So it's to move with greater
skill and precision with emotions.
Yeah, this is what it makes sense.
So do do some people try to justjump into intelligence without
being able to know what emotionsare to begin with?
(02:05):
Absolutely. You know, sometimes, you know,
people, I feel like they're justgoing through the motion of what
normal life is. And sometimes after going
through these interactions, theymight think themselves, oh, that
didn't go as I had planned. And, you know, they may lack the
certain language around their emotions.
Like, oh, I was feeling anxious at the time or actually I was
(02:26):
still under the weight of something heavier earlier today.
That to be able to connect the thoughts between how they're
feeling and how they show up in the context of relationships.
And so they may lack language around what they're feeling or
lack the the vulnerability and safety particulate how they're
feeling because they might be self censoring so that they
(02:49):
manage perception during an interaction.
So ultimately people might not feel fully vulnerable and safe
enough to express themselves andthey may bypass emotional
literacy and just go straight into judgment or conclusion.
So it's like that didn't go as planned or or make judgments
(03:10):
about the other person of like oh they're XYZ type of person if
they did this to me. So it's already more in the
conclusion phase than the self reflection phase.
Got it, you. So yeah.
So if if I'm not aware of what'sgoing on within me, I could
easily just start labeling and blaming everybody around me.
(03:30):
Exactly. So what first drew drew you into
studying emotional and relational intelligence?
I feel like so much of this comes from the score of life and
learning through painful trial and error.
And ultimately, I feel like the human experience is so vast and
(03:52):
complex. It's a topic where there's
infinite possibilities with learning and understanding it.
And so, you know, this just cameout of my personal passion.
Over the course of ten years, I read over more than 400 books on
the topic of psychology and personal development.
And to say obsessed is probably an understatement because I just
(04:15):
find this topic so interesting. But I think I was going on my
own journey of figuring out, youknow, what have my life
experiences been and how have that they have to turn to just
observing other relationship dynamics unfold.
So ultimately, I feel very anxious about helping people
shorten their learning curves because I'm overreached.
(04:35):
It's taken decades of 1000 yearsto get to where I'm at today.
And I'd love to help before shorten their learning curve.
The left they could beat are beard and wider as result.
Why do you think so many people grow up without any sort of
education around emotional literacy?
Well, for one thing, we don't see it sometimes modeled in our
(04:56):
home environments. So some of us have inherited
emotionally unintelligent parents or and mostly immature
parents. So we don't have that
psychological privilege built into our household where we grew
up need to be behaviors modeled for us.
So we also see that all too often we're handed gender norms
(05:19):
and scripts around work acceptable or unacceptable.
It's just kind of like the earlystages of where emotional
literacy starts to lag. You know, I mean early age, many
boys are ought to be silent or suppress their emotion or to not
really know that they're impacted by the how they start
(05:41):
to learn how to armor out into how much manage when they feel
hurt or stammered. And there's a moment that I I
distinctly remember it started as something as like as ordinary
as they have the grocery store. I were in the checkout line
about to pay for my persons. And there was this, you know,
(06:01):
father and son, in fact, the lion also waiting to check out.
And the little boy, he's been like 3 or 4 years old, sweet and
instant and tender. And at the same time he's
carried at the grocery store. And, you know, he, he's kind of
looking towards his father for comfort, but his father, he's
(06:21):
kind of feeling angry and patient like his son is an
inconvenience in that moment. And I saw him grab him by his
little arm and drag him to this little register stand because
the little boy was just being uncooperative.
And it's that little moment where I thought it's
(06:41):
heartbreaking to see this scene unfold.
But at the on the flip side, we see that that little boy was
starting to internalize certain messages like his father, the
person he loves and starts, but also be the very person who
beats him or is not a safe person or actually penalize him
(07:02):
for buying in public. And it just shows that little
boys, sometimes as early as three or four years old, are
already being handed stretch around.
You know, boys don't cry or, youknow, if you cry in public,
you'll get whooped or stanked. And it's kind of heartbreaking
because, you know, there's so many ways he could have handled
(07:24):
that dynamic. But in that moment, anger,
impatience was kind of leading the momentum of that specific
scenario. And you know, it just starts to
cement ideas around concept of what it means to be a fan that's
ultimately stunt emotional literacy later on.
(07:46):
Ideally, what what would that have farther done to really
support his his son? One of the things they could
have done was just approach him more on his level and attempt to
explain to him in that moment that even though he was upset
about something, that they wouldn't even walk together
(08:08):
towards the register together because they needed to check
out. And in just having a little bit
of a moment of connection while showing patience and talking to
him in a soothing, reassuring fashion.
But have reversed the tears in the 1st place by allowing him to
feel pained, understood and appreciated by his father just
(08:31):
enough to suit him so that he could cooperate willingly and
not have to be dragged to the register in a rather full
fashion. So for someone who's listening
now as an adult and struggles toname or express their own
emotions, what are some practical steps to move towards
(08:52):
literacy? One of the tools that I find to
be so helpful is to have something like an emotion reel.
It's basically like a pie chart and it has all of these
different emotions. It starts off with basic ones
like beers, fat it's and other emotions.
And then it breaks it down into secondary emotions and tertiary
(09:13):
emotions. And sometimes just having a
visual reference helps you to godeeper and then need your
reactions like I'm really angry.Well, if you if you drill down
to a secondary level, that angermight actually be something
else. And if you drill down to a third
level, it might be something else different.
And so the more specific you are, the more clear the problem
(09:36):
and solution become. And sometimes anger is just the
primary motion. It's a cover or a front.
And if you peel back the layer, you see, actually anger is the
acceptable outward expression and math badness.
Sometimes being the four wheel helps you see, OK, my primary
(09:58):
motion might be this, but actually I'm also doing this.
And funny enough, I, I think that's why I love the movie
Inside Out and 1:00 and 2:00 because it, it just shows how so
much of our human experience caneasily be a fusion of emotions.
Or having a tool like an emotionwheel can just help you to take
(10:20):
it out of your head and put it in visual format so you could
start to label a name. And that gives you clarity.
And sometimes just validating your alleged experience is a
form of self soothing and it it helps you to have a different
degree of clarity of which to solve problems.
Yeah, I see the lot in a lot of the the men that I coach that
(10:42):
they're quick to name an emotion.
And it's like the one or two emotions that were allowable as
children. So again, often for a minute
it's anger. But then, yeah, underneath that
anger, what, what else are you feeling?
Or if if you could explore deeper than that, or if you
could imagine which started the anger, what was there?
And yeah, so that idea that there's, there's the primary
emotion, there's the emotion we're able or willing to show,
(11:03):
and then there's the truth. Absolutely.
How do you see a healthy emotional literacy impacting
people in their day-to-day lives?
Like where? Where does it show up most?
Well, because some of it, it's kind of like a dual topic where
on one level the emotional literacy is happening
(11:23):
internally, but it's also happening externally.
So it's twofold. And internally it's just
noticing your own feelings. Like you go through the day,
like let's say in the morning routine, you feel like you're
rushing through the actions because you're just like
furrying to get out the door to make it on time to work.
But then it could be all the little interaction like meeting
(11:44):
your Co worker in the morning and just kind of like summing up
your perception of how they're doing.
Like are they tired? Are they angry?
Are they feeling stressed and just observing their emotions
from the external perception? It's a way of intern, you know,
managing how you relate to that that morning, you know, if
they're sad, you might face, youmight check in.
(12:06):
If they're feeling stressed, youmight ask them about what's
going on. And sometimes that just relates
to how the interaction itself ison full range.
So it's it's internal and it's external and it's infarcting the
the emotions we're able to name and express as we interact with
others. Now you do a lot of work with
(12:26):
attachment styles. Can you kind of unpack what
attachment styles are and why they're so important?
Star basically, the vast majority of us have basically
been imprinted with how we relate to others.
And attachment theory basically establishes that there are 4
categories in which people usually fall into.
(12:50):
About 50% of the population is under the umbrella of secure
attachment. This typically represents
someone, if you're had grown up with a lot of emotional
intelligence in their household.So they've seen this modelled
through parents, caregivers and other influential people and
(13:10):
they've internalized these ideas.
So as they go forth into the world, they're able to kind of
like intuitively create healthy relationships.
They know how to express their emotions.
So they get checked boxes for emotional literacy, emotional
intelligence, and they're just naturally able to not only have
relationships but have successful relationships, the
kind that are happy, healthy, and last many years.
(13:33):
On the flip side, the other for 50% of the population have an
insecure attachment style and they usually fall into one of
three buckets. One could be anxious attachment,
the other is fearful avoidance and your next one is dismissive
avoided. So the anxious person typically
has a lot of self limiting beliefs around child.
(13:54):
They relate to others that are all stemming from anxiety from a
lot of times they're carrying fears and securities wounds that
make them more anxious in the context of relationships than
when we look at fearful avoidance.
They're like a hybrid of the dismissive type and the anxious
type. And usually these people have
had a lot of altered adversity and maybe so common in their
(14:17):
history that make them a mixtureor fusion of anxious and
dismissive with dismissive avoidance.
What we often see in that there's a fear around being in
relationships because they associate it with having to be
vulnerable or you know, they don't feel comfortable
expressing their emotion and it's making avoidance often
(14:39):
struggle to have long term healthy relationships because
you know, their emotional conditioning are taught them
that casual relationships or transactional relationships are
easier and better. So these types typically
struggle with having successful long term relationships because
(14:59):
of how they've been faked and molded many times because of
their early life experiences. So is the attachment style that
we create used the most growing up?
Is that our style for the rest of our lives?
No, it's not. All too often, like so many
things in life, you know, we canimprove for the better through
(15:22):
intentional information change and fix and fee.
And so much of what we can become ultimately is the
byproduct of intentional efforts.
So once you have clarity on yourattachment style, you can start
to see, OK, here are the insecurities that are kind of
driving my perception and how I interact with others and then
(15:43):
start to intentionally have corrective experiences where you
can begin to upscale and close those gaps.
So, and let's imagine someone should have three or four major
insecurities that get in the wayof those healthy relationships.
They can start to unpack that and peel back the layers to see,
OK, this is a series of experiences that have influenced
(16:06):
this insecurity. Let's start to systematically
and methodically work through them so that both insecurities
no longer define identity or self perception.
And once those insecurities havedialed down substantially, they
don't have the same power and grip as they need.
Chennai. And then that in turn makes room
(16:26):
for healthier perception, healthier behaviors which are
conducive for long term healthy copy relationships.
So is that in an essence what you're secure school is doing?
Oh, absolutely. It's very much a process of
helping people to learn to that are often missing because a lot
(16:48):
of us don't learn relational intelligence growing up, right?
I think one of my my passions isI would love to see emotional
intelligence and relational intelligence taught K through 12
and and college, because all we relate to others is an essential
part of our happiness. And it's just one of those
(17:08):
topics that gets, you know, undercharged and it just
produces natural output. You know, if, if we applied the
logic to any other topic like math or science or English, you
didn't have that in your experience for 1520 years of
your life, you know, that creates a, a natural gap.
But because emotional intelligence, relational
(17:29):
intelligence are, are learnable topics and skills that can be
formed. It's just a matter of closing
the gap between what we don't know and what we do know.
And by going through a structured falsess, we're able
to not only learn, but apply andthen iterate and prove and so
that it's integrated into our identity and not just a
(17:51):
fascinating fact. We want to take that fun.
Alexandra, I know you have a background in high tech.
I wonder how do you see technology currently helping or
harming our collective emotionalliteracy?
That is that a fascinating topicbecause I have long felt that
psychology and technology overlap and we we're trying to
(18:12):
see this in healthy and unhealthy directions, right?
Like for for many of our our cell phone, it's always prevent
arm's reach or there's always that insatiable little bitch to
check our phones, whether it's notifications or going back and
forth between acts we love to years or on some level that
could be disruptive. You know, or like so many things
(18:35):
in life, it's not a spectrum. The overuse of technology is
harmful. You know, it could impact self
esteem. It could in progress through
absorbing vicarious experiences because you know, all of this
information and sometimes be hurtful just to Russian it.
It creates the important a need to really know about like media
(18:58):
literacy to kind of monitor and regulate what you watch and what
you don't watch. So I think this most plays out,
I guess, for us in the context of, you know, dating apps where
people are using dating apps in hopes for finding a romantic
partner and these experiences from death, crazy, a big stag
where some people experience good results and some people
(19:20):
don't. At the same time, when you look
at how dating apps are built, they're definitely fine to
optimize for things that aren't necessarily aligned with a
healthy relationship. Naturally become a matter of how
we use the tool and also how theperson navigates those
(19:42):
experiences so that they're moreconstructive and helpful.
So you shared that your grand vision and hope for the world
was all of us being taught emotional literacy in in
elementary school. What would the world look like
if humans were taught, along with reading and writing,
emotional literacy? My hope is that it would
(20:04):
ultimately lead and less heartbreak, less dysfunction,
healthy relationships in general.
Because, you know, I think sometimes after kids hit
puberty, they get curious and they Start learning from their
peers and asking questions. And sometimes they don't want to
ask their parents, but they're asking their peers.
And it's kind of like the blind reading the blind.
(20:25):
Not necessarily good information, but what I envision
is people would just be healthier and happier and they
would have to wait until their mid 20s, mid 30s, mid 40s to
figure out, oh, here are the thesadly avoidable heartbreak I
could have avoided had I just known these things, what it
(20:47):
takes to create a healthy relationship.
And because they just didn't know any better.
They're they're just kind of learning as they go through
trial and error. You know, I think ultimately so
many of these we just read heartbreak and suffering
selected ways. You know, sometimes with certain
topics like math or science, youcan just objectively see, you
(21:07):
know, you know, 1 + 1 is true. But what if we had the
equivalent of of emotional intelligence in our curriculum
and classes so that people wouldjust fundamentally de
personalize some of the things required?
You know, they can understand things with depth and nuance.
And I think people will be kinder to each other and wiser
(21:29):
too. It's it's fascinating when you
look outside of the United States, like in countries like
Denmark, sometimes kids get multiple years of education
around empathy and surprise survive.
The rate of bullying goes down, too.
And when you think about how so much of mental health is
impacted because peers are boring or criticizing, you know,
(21:53):
that in itself can be helpful tothose middle school students or
high school students where kids being mean to each other is
just, you know, kids being kids.But naturally if they knew
better and generally had different beliefs and values, I
think they would just behave better and it would just be of a
(22:14):
more natural outcome. Because cause of the fact if if
you understand emotional intelligence, it might
constantly be affected, you do better.
And if you do better, we'll add cascading benefit to the
individual, but offer their their sphere of influence.
Yeah, so it's really uneducated kids being uneducated kids.
Absolutely. And I kind of remember years
(22:35):
ago, I was a mentor at a middle school, and I was walking down
the hallway, you know, from the time I checked in to like, the
library where I was going to meet the students.
And of course, the school walls were plastered with like, those
little chirotypical posters bully people.
And I was walking down the hallway.
I could hear the kid, you know, just like being mean to each
other, taunting and teaching. I'm like, there's such a gap
(22:58):
right now between that inspirational poster on the wall
and what's unfolding right now in a period break as the kids
are just, you know, surging downthis hallway to make it to their
next clash. And part of me is like,
motivational posters only go so far.
And it's it's not until like this kind of content is
(23:18):
mainstream and embedded into core curriculum that I think
meaningful change can actually be seen because a poster low,
low cut. What do you see as the biggest
barrier that men face in developing emotional illiteracy?
No, they they have emotional illiteracy.
What do you see is a barrier developing emotional literacy
(23:38):
and what can be done to overcomethat?
If we look at the barriers on, on some level, it's it's it's
stomach and, and multifaceted for sure.
And if we start to take it layerby layer, it it's first allowing
oneself to be more comfortable with the range of emotions and,
(23:59):
you know, challenging for the limiting script and outdated
narratives that say, you know, men should only do these kinds
of things and just broaden it because it's a human experience.
And kind of what makes me laugh is the idea that when you look
at emojis on a keyboard, there are many emojis that express
different feelings. And I think that's part of the
(24:20):
human experience. Men should totally allow
themselves to experience the more vulnerable rages of those
emotions without change, withoutinner criticism and and
supporting each other with with kindness.
Because I think a lot of times here is reinforced ideas around
what's allowed and what's even allowed, though, you know, I
(24:42):
think of imagery like, you know,let's imagine kids are playing
baseball and one kid flies and he's right for himself and his
peers were gone to see his reaction.
And if he even tries to like silence, a little silent tear or
they might be on looking once it's just being unfolding and
(25:04):
just kind of ridicule him. Like, did you see that?
I think he's crying. And then cue the collected
laughter. So we have the shame, the blame,
the ridiculing. It's kind of like, no, no, no,
no. You know, we we need to
acknowledge that sometimes painful things are and it's OK
to express emotion. And so I see it as giving
permission to oneself, but also giving other other men an
(25:27):
opportunity to be vulnerable andnot have it ridicilized or
ridiculed because sometimes those scripts are still
unfolding. So making it days internally,
but also one-on-one and also eventually in another larger
spaces because we need to model it, but also give space for
(25:49):
other people to be authentic with their human experience.
Golfer. Tell me about the availability
awards. Oh yeah, this, this is the fun
project that I recently wrapped up, and it's basically inspired
by dating experiences that are so common inside of the context
of dating apps. So whether it's Bumble or Tinder
(26:11):
or any other the major dating apps, all too often when people
enter these realms, they're bound to find people who are not
relationship ready. And we put them under the
category of emotionally unavailable.
So when someone is emotionally unavailable, they ultimately are
(26:31):
lacking emotional literacy, emotional intelligence and
relational intelligence. So they're unable to sustain a
healthy relationship. And what this book does is it
basically explains the many varieties of emotional
unavailability and then what makes them attractive, what
makes them hurtful and start to pivot towards not using these
(26:54):
types of individuals. Because as you can imagine, you
know, when people pick their ownpartner, it seems frailing too,
heartbreak, but also turn lost wish the wrong person.
And sometimes it's just a matterof strengthening art and
recognition and certain values. So that's being used very Army
(27:16):
type. Just he'll get to move forward
into one's heart. And Chad and just it are like a
framework for understanding who's relationship writing,
who's not. Alexandra, what's one thing that
you wish more men knew? I think I want more men to know
(27:36):
that they will be loved and cherished and accepted for their
full health by women who appreciate them for their whole
humanity. I I think sometimes so much of
self management and self preservation, I don't steal
(27:57):
armor and layer and not showing vulnerability leads to gap and
understanding and compassion. Sometimes just having that safe
space inside of a relationship can just feel hard and be so
restored, and it's just a matterof having those healthy
(28:18):
relationships where feeling and really charged louder because
it's a psychologically safe environment.
Being emotionally unavailable isnormally something get gets
assigned to men. Do you see women in that same
position? Absolutely.
You know, one of the things thatthat always comes to mind to me
is that our partner is a mirror of ourselves.
(28:41):
When we look at a mirror, it, itechoes back exactly what's in
its reflection, right. So when a woman picks an emotion
unavailable partner, it reflectson her own emotional unavailable
too. So all too often when people
share their stories, they're blaming, right?
They're pointing the figure out the other person.
They did this, they did that. And if you had seen how they
(29:03):
treated me there. And so they're crafting this
narrative that's very one sided,right?
But if we look out the other side of the coin, when someone
over functions, overworks, over gives, it's coming from an
insecurity, a wound of fear and insecure parchment style.
So in their own way they are unlike equal and opposites or
(29:26):
yin Yang like they're both emotionally unavailable, but
it's just playing out in different ways.
One might one partner might be pulling away and the other one
is chasing. And so they're both insecure,
but the outward presentation of their emotional unavailability
is presenting differently. But at the core, they're both
(29:47):
emotionally unavailable. So Alexandra, where can people
go to learn more about your workand connect with you?
But you'd like to learn more about my upcoming work, you're
welcome to follow me on YouTube.My handle is my secure era.
I have a collection of our interactive sessions that are
coming up where I will be using Sigma and Miro and on dissect
(30:13):
different topics in the world ofpeople still on charges that
will be like short form videos, maybe 5 to 15 minutes.
So you're curious to learn more about emotional literacy,
emotional intelligence, relational intelligence.
We'll have a wonderful theories there to chill into to learn
more about these topics are free.
(30:33):
Awesome. Well, thanks for all the work
that you're doing and exploring yourself, sharing all that and
therefore helping everyone to explore and strengthen their
emotional health. And yeah, it's it's it's so true
in so many areas that when each of us are willing to do that
inner work, it just radiates outand changes our relationship,
(30:53):
then changes our community, and eventually we can really change
the world. Absolutely.
But being that is perfectly sad.So many of us can reach the
single point of change that has cascading benefits in multiple
areas of life and in multiple relationships.
And when we collectively work together, we can make the world
a better place. And it just parts are changing
(31:15):
one part at a time. Thanks for listening to Real Men
Feel Big thank you to my guest, Alexandra Velez.
You can learn more about her work at my secureera.com.
If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe,
leave a review, share this episode with someone who could
use it, and remember, you don't have to figure out life alone.
Join me and other men exploring authenticity, growth, and
(31:35):
connection in the authentic AF community at
realmenfeel.org/group. And until next time, be good to
yourself.
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