March 11, 2025 • 44 mins
Trauma often silences us in ways we don't realize until years later. For author Kionna Walker LeMalle, Hurricane Katrina not only destroyed her home but also erased her memories, including her 30th birthday. In this conversation about her debut novel Behind the Waterline, Kionna reflects on how writing the story became an unexpected path to healing.
The book’s protagonist—a grandmother struggling with her past—refused to tell her own story, forcing Kionna to shift the narrative to her grandson. This mirrored Kionna’s own battle with unaddressed trauma. As she relived the storm through her characters, Kionna regained lost memories, revealing that confronting pain is key to healing.
Kionna also explores intergenerational trauma, the dangers of silence, and the power of storytelling. Her novel allows readers to both reflect on their own experiences and connect with others' lives. Whether processing personal trauma or understanding generational impacts, Kionna’s message is clear: healing comes through confronting and remembering our pain. Pre-order Behind the Waterline at writerteacherfriend.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Free audio.
Post production by Alphoniccom.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome and thanks for tuning in to Real People,
real Talk Relevant conversationsthat take you from surviving to
thriving.
This is the podcast that goesthere.
My name is Paul Calcoat and I'myour host.
Now let's talk.
Hello, thriver, and welcome toReal People, real Talk, the
(00:38):
podcast ministry that equips youto thrive spiritually,
relationally and mentally.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
This episode is for those thatmay be weathering the storms of
life right now.
Or maybe you have experience orare experiencing trauma, or
maybe you just need someencouragement.
Keep listening.
Today I have a guest that hasan awesome story that is indeed
(01:00):
worth sharing.
Keanu Walker-Lamale is anexecutive writer by day, a
fiction writer by night andoccasional poet.
She is married to Dr AveryLamalle, the pastor of the
church at Jersey Village, who isa dear friend of mine and
anointed man of God.
Kiana's imagination is fueledby her childhood in the inner
city of New Orleans and morethan 20 years of teaching in the
(01:21):
public schools, and hergreat-grandmother's experience
of a lifespan of 108 years andthe endless adventures of
motherhood and, most recently,grandmotherhood as well.
Lamelle's published writingincludes inspirational academic
and literary work.
Her debut novel, behind theWaterline, which is what we're
discussing today is the winnerof the Lee Smith Novel Prize.
(01:42):
Welcome to the show Kiana.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Thank you so much.
I'm so glad to be here with youtoday.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yes, I'm super excited about this conversation.
We're going to jump right in.
Who is this book for Behind theWaterline?
Talk to us.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
All right.
Well, I'm going to answer itthis way.
You know, I'm a curriculumperson.
I've been in curriculum all ofmy adult life and there's a
concept in curriculum calledwindows and mirrors, and when
we're talking about that, we'retalking about how you look out
of a window to see others' livesthat you may never actually
connect with and you look into amirror to see your own own.
(02:26):
So this phrase started in aboutthe late 80s to understand
what's important in curriculum,but it's become a really big
thing in the world of literacyand teaching kids and I think
it's a really big part of how weread literature in general,
right?
So I say all of that to saywe've got a lot of mirrors in
this book and therefore a lot ofroom for windows as well.
So we've got a young narrator,14-year-old kid, who's feeling
(02:51):
ostracized by his peers.
He's lost his mom, Hisgrandmother, is eccentric and is
paranoid.
So we've got these characterswith these kinds of complexities
.
We've got a pastor who's inlove with a woman who doesn't
seem to love him back, An entireneighborhood of kids that are
featured in the book that havelost everything in Hurricane
(03:13):
Katrina.
Of course we have, you know,there's teachers that are
featured that have losteverything in the storm as well,
storm as well.
And then we have because itcovers more than one time period
we've got the grandmother'shistory and her struggles
throughout the height of thecivil rights movement right.
So that's lots of room for lotsof mirrors, but also lots of
(03:37):
windows.
So I don't think there's not aone answer for me.
It's really a, it's a work ofliterary fiction.
It's not necessarily YA, it'snot plot driven, it's very much
character driven.
So it's really a book foranyone who loves a good story,
but also who would benefit fromlooking into any of those
(03:59):
mirrors, but who would benefitas well to looking in, you know,
looking out of the window intosome other lives that are unlike
their own.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I love that concept windows and mirrors.
I try my best to be a bookwormfrom time to time.
I haven't heard of thatphilosophy, that concept, and I
like that.
And you touched on it just atad, but without giving it all
away, of course, because we wantour dear listeners to go and
buy the book.
But what is Behind theWaterline all about?
Just tell us a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, you know, it's really about one generation's
efforts to hide the past and howthat directly impacts and
distorts the future.
But it's also a story about how, you know, one generation fails
to acknowledge the work of thegeneration before, right?
So it's a cross-generationalpiece.
Again, a reason why it'sdifficult to say that it's just
(04:51):
YA or it's just women's fictionor it's just adult fiction,
because it is anintergenerational story.
And so we are experiencing,along with the characters, we're
experiencing the trauma thatthe young character goes through
because his grandmother isrefusing to tell him her truth,
right?
So there is a danger in notpassing on our stories.
(05:15):
But there's also a failure ofthe younger generation to even
think that the older generationhas a story worth sharing.
So it's really, you know, abook that's navigating that kind
of intergenerational complexity.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And Kiana.
I'm curious to know like whydid you make the decision to
have the grandson voice insteadof the grandmother's in the
story, as it's told?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah.
So here's the thing.
Writer's secret, that wasn't myplan.
Oh, ok, thing.
Writer's secret, that wasn't myplan when I started writing
this.
Initially, I started writing itas a love story and it was the
grandmother's story, but she wasexperiencing a lot of trauma.
(05:59):
In the very first version ofthe book, the grandson was on
his way off to college.
He actually ends up being a lotyounger in the final version
and what happened was, you know,when we create characters as
fiction writers, if we arewriting with integrity, we can't
(06:19):
make the characters do anythingthat they would not in fact do.
Characters do anything thatthey would not in fact do.
Okay, so because my characterwas struggling with her trauma
and refusing to tell her story,I couldn't make her tell her
story Right.
So it was like being at war withthe character I had created.
I was trying to tell her story,but she kept going quiet on me,
(06:40):
she wouldn't say anything.
She would only say a little bit, then she would shut down.
Quiet on me, she wouldn't sayanything, she would only say a
little bit, then she would shutdown.
And so it ended up being thatinitially, I tried to write it
from two points of view.
I tried to alternate between herpoint of view and the
grandson's point of view, and hejust became more and more vocal
as she became more and moresilent.
So there was a point, probablyat nearly a hundred pages in to
(07:06):
the very first draft of the bookthat I reached the, that I had
to kind of surrender that she'snot going to tell this story.
He's, he's the only narratorhere, and so it meant going back
and taking outs a lot andrewriting a lot at that point.
But it was necessary becauseyou know, to really be true to
(07:32):
who the character was, I had toallow her to be silent.
She wasn't ready to talk.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, I love this so much.
And, kiana, I want to take aquick, quick tangent.
But one of the goals of realpeople would talk.
I want to encourage peopleknowledge, you know, thrive
spiritually, thrive mentally andthrive relationally, but I
would encourage people to answergod's call on their lives and
to walk in purpose.
Purpose and, in your own words,like what inspired you to
(07:59):
become like an author and awriter.
What did the inspiration looklike?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
You know what it's less inspiration, I think, and
more compulsion.
It's like, you know, I didn'thave a choice.
I would be.
You know, I've always, I'vealways, I've always been a
writer.
I haven't always been apublished writer, right?
I don't remember a time in mylife that I was not a writer.
(08:25):
In fact, when Hurricane Katrinahit and you know I'm from New
Orleans and you know HurricaneKatrina is part of this story in
Behind the Waterline as well.
The novel is framed aroundHurricane Katrina I lost a
closet full of writing because Iwas a, you know, I was what I
(08:45):
would call a closet writer.
I was writing all the time youcan.
You, you have to do what Godhas created you to do and called
you to do.
So I was always writing, but Iwasn't surrendering to actually
share that writing or go publicwith it.
So I would write all the timeand then I just had like binders
of writing that you know, thatwas shelved.
(09:05):
So I don't, you know, thereisn't a singular moment when I
realized, oh, I should bewriting.
But I do think that part of whatHurricane Katrina did was it
brought me to the point of Ishould be publishing, right, I
(09:26):
should be getting my writing outthere, that it has a bigger
purpose than you know justwriting.
You know, for myself, for myown healing, for my own
processes or just for my, youknow, the sake of like getting
the story out that's on my mindso that I can focus on something
else, because sometimes it'slike I can't.
(09:49):
I can't move forward withsomething else until I pin what
needs to be pinned.
So you know, it's not, it's nota singular inspiration.
I really would say it's more ofa calling.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I ask you that because, once again, I really
want to encourage the listenersto answer God's call on their
life.
I'm reminded of a quote by LesBrownway.
He said the graveyard is therichest place on earth, because
it's there where you'll find thehopes and the dreams that were
never fulfilled, books that werenever written, songs that were
never sung, inventions that wasnever shared and cures that were
(10:30):
never discovered, all becausesomeone was too afraid to take
the first step, to keep theproblem and you know, or
determined to carry out thedream.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
I mean that's good, and you said that and I just
thought, man, there's a landfillsomewhere that has a bunch of
my unpublished writing and youcan't write the same thing twice
.
I mean I can't.
I don't know, maybe there'ssomeone who can, but it's like
you know it.
(10:56):
Just it's not the same thingtwice the next time you try to
write it.
It's going to be somethingdifferent.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Exactly Because you're a different person.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, Sometimes, sometimes even when I'm in the
moment of teaching, I'll saysomething and then someone in
the class will say, hey, can yousay that again?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And I'm like what did I say?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Can somebody else say what I just said?
Like you know, I can't evennecessarily repeat the same
thing, you know, in twoconsecutive moments much less
write the same thing afterlosing all of that writing.
So, yes, that quote definitelyspeaks to me.
And I was convicted because itwas essentially, you know, an
(11:37):
act of disobedience to not movemy writing forward, to just kind
of hoard it.
Some of that was some fear.
You have to learn how to.
You have to to release yourwriting to the world.
You also have to let it go.
Um, and I'm a perfectionist, soI'll go work and rework and
rework, and rework and reworkthings over and over again and
(11:58):
like never get to the end of it.
So that's part of it.
Um, but that you know it, itreally is like I was convicted
that I was not, I wassurrendering to the writing, but
I wasn't surrendering to thesharing.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
That's good, and could you elaborate more on that
, like, what are some practicaltips to to cross that barrier
from being a writer to being anauthor?
You touched on this, talkingabout getting over over the fear
and then, because when yourelease something, you invite
criticism into it, you inviteother people's opinions into it
and everybody got an opinion.
But once again, could you speakto moving from being a writer
(12:35):
to an author?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Part of getting your work out there is being willing
to share it with others, right,and getting over the fear of
rejection.
So one of the things thathelped me to get over the fear
of rejection and actually pursuetraditional publishing is that
I learned when I was in the MFAprogram at Houston Christian
(13:00):
that the rejection rate for umfrom publishers is about 90%.
Nine zero Right, and so, um, Iwas always an, A student, so
it's like you know, getting acouple of rejection letters is,
you know, it's just that doesn'twork, right.
(13:21):
Right, you're not used to that,and a lot of people, if you were
a good writer in school and Ischool, and right here, I want
to pause and say that there area lot of people who didn't
necessarily do well with writingin school but are phenomenal
authors and that's just becausethey leaned into their
creativity.
You know more than they leanedinto.
You know just surrendering to,you know boxes, right.
(13:43):
But I had to reframe the way Isaw rejection and my friend
Nicole Williams helped with that, so she came up with this idea
that you know, instead of goingafter one acceptance, you go
after 90 rejections.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Because that becomes the new A Right.
If the rejection rate is 90percent in publishing, then,
taking the stance I'm going togo after 90 rejections to get my
A.
It gives it gives you thecourage to put the work out
there, right, and to begin tosubmit.
Now I didn't have 90 rejectionsfor Behind the Waterline, but
(14:27):
because we reframed how, how wesaw, you know, the entry into
publishing.
It opened up the door to justsubmit, submit, submit, submit,
submit, submit, submit, right.
And that's really what it takes,you know to, to cross over from
being, you know, the closetwriter that I was in the past to
(14:51):
being a writer who's nowpushing her work out there.
You really have to just kind ofreframe it and understand that
there's going to be somerejection.
Like, even though I got somerequests for the opening
chapters and requests for thefull.
Like, even though I got somerequests for the opening
chapters and requests for thefull, not all of those landed,
you know, with a contract, right, but they did help me to
network and I've met some greatpeople, you know, along the way,
(15:14):
and even got some pieces thatwere solicited for, you know,
for other works because they'dread this and, you know, maybe
they were putting together ananthology and, you know, reached
out and said hey, we'd reallylike you to write for this
anthology, because you know welike your writing style.
If I hadn't started to put mywork out there, you know, then
the doors wouldn't, you know,have begun to open up.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Kiana, that's so good .
Thank you so much for justbeing honest and transparent and
sharing your story, justcrossing over the fear, getting
over the rejection and goingfrom writer to author.
And I just want to encouragethe listeners.
We took this Holy Spirit ledtangent like don't bear the
talent that God has given youand again I also spoke to this
like walk in obedience.
(15:58):
Don't allow fear or rejectionto deter you from God's will for
your life.
And man delayed obedience isdisobedience.
So whatever God has beencalling you to do, you need to
do it.
One thing that I've learnedabout rejection sometimes that's
really God redirection.
He's redirecting you fromsomething that you may think is
good, but he want to get you towhat is best for your life.
(16:21):
But that's enough of mepreaching, kiana.
I want to jump back into thebook.
Could you speak to the impactof trauma?
I'm sure that many of mylisteners may have experienced
trauma, may be experiencingtrauma right now in their lives.
Could you speak to that?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Sure, sure.
So I mentioned that in thenovel it really is the
grandmother's story unfoldingthrough the grandson right, and
we talked a little bit about howit was necessary for him to
narrate because she refused tospeak right, which is often a
symptom of trauma.
(16:58):
The shutting down and refusingto tell one's story, kind of
know into yourself, can be asymptom of trauma.
Right, there is, there isresearch that shows that trauma
does actually have an impact onthe brain, right?
It changes the brain's activity.
(17:19):
There's a psychiatrist namedBruce D Perry yes, bruce D Perry
that has been researching thisfor years and looking at, like,
the neuroscience behind traumaand how it impacts the brain,
right, and so he studied this alot in children, but also, you
know, in some adult cases with.
(17:40):
You know things like PTSD, youknow how is it that?
You know, when someone hearsfirecrackers, they think that
they're back.
You know, on the lines of a war, right, and he talks about.
You know what happens to thebrain and how the part of the
brain that processes time is.
You know, like the feedbackgets stuck there and like they
(18:03):
can't get to the part of thebrain that's processing time.
And I know that that was thepast.
This is the now, right, sothere are actual physical
changes that happen to the brain.
But then there's behavioralchanges, right, I will say for
me, you know I mentioned Ididn't plan to write this book
from the perspective of thegrandson.
I plan to write it from theperspective of the grandmother.
(18:24):
I planned to write it from theperspective of the grandmother,
but I also did not plan to writea Hurricane Katrina story.
Okay, I was going to write astory that you know, was just
set in the past, but I had beenworking on writing about
Hurricane Katrina for at thetime that I started writing this
(18:47):
probably 15, 16 years I hadbeen, you know, dabbling in
Hurricane Katrina stories.
And so when I committed towriting Behind the Water Lines
and there was a point at which Iwas mapping out the
grandmother's life, I wasmapping out the grandson's life,
I was mapping out just variouscharacters and there's a point
(19:11):
on a big spreadsheet person.
So I created this bigspreadsheet and then there was a
column on that spreadsheet thatwas 2005.
And every character hadexperienced Hurricane Katrina
and I had experienced HurricaneKatrina and it could have been
like just something happened inthe novel and Hurricane Katrina
(19:33):
became the frame for it.
So Hurricane Katrina became the.
This is what is happening, andthe grandmother's past was this
is what happened.
And with the storm, everythingthat she had been trying to hide
(19:58):
because of that silence that wecan end up subjecting ourselves
to, because of trauma,everything that she tried to
hide began to be excavated withthat storm.
Right, but for me, I didn'trealize.
I did realize, but I didn'treally realize.
(20:21):
I think I had.
I did realize, but I didn'treally realize I think I had let
me say it this way I think Ihad resolved that the problems
that I had mentally post-Katrinawere just permanent problems.
And so let me give you a littlemore context.
Post-katrina, I began to have alot of problems with my memory,
(20:45):
right, and I mean I'm talkingthings that don't make sense,
right.
The funniest I laugh about itnow the funniest is like when I
turned 31, I thought I wasturning 30.
And so I, you know I waslamenting like there was, so I
wanted to, you know, to have somuch done by the time I turned
(21:08):
30.
And you know, I kept telling mymom I cannot believe I'm about
to be 30.
And you know, finally my momgoes why do you keep saying that
?
And I say because there's justso much I wanted to do by this
point.
And she said but baby, you'realready 30.
And I just if I was cryingbefore- like.
(21:33):
I was really crying, right, mylife because of that storm.
I truly thought I was 29 yearsold.
I had no memory of turning 30.
I turned 30 the month beforeHurricane Katrina, right.
But there were other things.
Like you know, I couldn'tremember who didn't live through
(21:56):
the storm and who lived throughthe storm, right, and it's the
kind of thing you don't want toask people like, hey, is your
mom still alive?
When you know you should know,right, because we, we talked
about this like I should knowwhether or not you know their,
their moms, are alive.
I should know whether or not helost his twin.
I, I should know, right, and soI was.
(22:18):
I would have like, and I calledthem white spaces, like just
like blank spots in my memorythat I just could not access,
you know.
And so at some point I went toa doctor and I asked the doctor
yeah, I brought this up, I'mthinking, well, I have like
early onset dementia, what ishappening here?
And he said, no, this is, youknow, it's a sign of PTSD and
(22:45):
you should have gottencounseling, you know, after
Hurricane Katrina.
And this was in about 2007, acouple of years after the storm
and he said you know it's, it'snot too late.
You know you could starttherapy now.
Well, paul, I was young anddumb and I didn't, you know.
I, um, you know my kids wereyoung, you know I had four, four
(23:09):
little people to take care of.
I was at the height of mycareer as a professor and I
thought you know who has timefor that, you know.
So I just came up with a bunchof tricks and mnemonic devices
and things like that you knowfrom my memory, like I, you know
, couldn't teach a class withoutdrawing a graphic of where
people sat, and like when theyswitch seats on me, I'm like, oh
(23:30):
my God, I don't know what thiskid's name is, and it's because
I was, you know, dealing withthese memory issues.
On the other side of, you know,hurricane Katrina, right, one of
the effects of the trauma,interestingly enough, after I
erode behind the waterline, Istarted to regain a lot of the
(23:53):
memory capacity, not all of it,but I started to regain memory
capacity that I had not had inyears and it came through
forcing myself to really relivethat storm and to relive the
trauma and the loss and thelooking for people and the not,
you know, having, you know, mystuff at my fingertips.
(24:15):
All of it, like just bringingmyself through that process of
reliving it actually did heal mybrain enough that I now, you
know, I am remembering mystudents names, you know, for
example, and this is the kind ofthing you know I have told
people before, but I think thatthey don't really think that
(24:37):
it's like Avery knows it's thatbad Right.
But you know, I think oftenlike people don't really think
so because I had developed somany ways of coping with it and
so many ways of disguising youknow that issue.
But the writing of the storyactually did set me on a path
(24:59):
toward healing in a way that I'mable to tangibly see because
I'm remembering more now.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Kiana, as you was answering, I was just really
appreciative of just howtransparent and real and raw you
are with your story and I thinkwe need more of that in
Christianity.
We need more of that in thechurch, more of that in media.
You spoke to the impact oftrauma and mental health, and
those are some buzzwords thatoften you know, the Christian
(25:28):
community seem.
Some of us seem not to know howto handle it.
We think two things can coexist.
You can seek healing, of course, from the Lord, and the Lord
also uses ways in the natural tobring about healing, and so,
when it comes to mental health,there's a stigma around that.
You mentioned the wordcounseling in some circles, like
(25:48):
you bring up counseling, oh,they think you're crazy.
No counseling doesn't meanyou're crazy.
Counseling means that you arebold enough, you are vulnerable
enough, you're courageous enoughto seek healing.
And you said something about.
You was at the height of yourcareer and what I got from that
is to encourage my dearlisteners you should make time
(26:10):
for healing.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Don't hide it.
And I also just want toencourage my dear listener don't
be afraid to get the help thatyou need, regardless of whatever
stigma.
The Lord, he is a wonderfulcounselor, he is the ultimate
healer, but sometimes he healsthrough other coping mechanisms.
He can heal through a miracle,because the God that we serve is
the same yesterday, today andforever.
(26:33):
But sometimes God wants to usecounseling or to use therapy,
and so I just want to encourageyou, like, whatever you may be
going through, it's OK not to beOK, but it's not OK not to get
the help that you need.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right, right, I could not agree more.
And if I could go back, you know, and have a conversation with
my somewhere between 30 and 32year old self, you know, get
counseling, um, because I, I'vespent a lot of years not being
(27:08):
able to build memory, and I, youknow, and I, I think it's, I
think it was because, uh, Ithink it was part of you know,
your brain tries to protectitself, right, and when you go
through something like, uh,something like a Hurricane,
katrina, you know, like theCalifornia wildfires that we saw
recently, you know, when you gothrough those kinds of things
(27:30):
and you suddenly have everythingtangible ripped from you, you
know, it's like the brain sortof protects itself by not
building attachments.
Right, and if I can't buildmemory, I still can't really
build attachments, you'd besurprised.
You know what I could forget,you know what I have forgotten
(27:51):
over the years, and so if Ididn't intentionally work on
remembering something, Iwouldn't remember it, right, but
I could have gotten therapy allthe way back when the doctor,
you know, mentioned it to me andsuggested it, and I would have
had years of building memory.
(28:14):
And I will tell you, there areliterally times when my kids
will maybe, you know they'llstart talking about something.
It's not that I forgeteverything, but it's crazy, the
things that I can't forget.
You know they'll start talkingabout something, or they'll ask
me a question about theirchildhood and I'm like yeah yeah
, my brain dumped that one.
Sorry, my brain just dumped it,you know.
(28:35):
So I, you know, I would tell my, I would go back and tell
myself, hey, go and, you know,and get the therapy.
It's not a sign of of weakness.
We, you know, we have toremember that we're human.
There's only one god, right, weare human and we are finite and
limited.
And so so there's, you know, weonly have so much capacity,
(28:57):
right, and sometimes we justneed help to um, to manage, you
know, to, to deal with, like the, the hugeness of life, right,
like the kids say, likesometimes life be lifing and
it's, you know, it's just a lotin going through something like
that where, literally, you loseeverything, um, essentially
(29:19):
overnight.
I was also pregnant with Janae,you know, at the time.
So we were, you know, we losteverything, found out, uh, we
were homeless and then found outwe were pregnant, all within a
matter of, you know, a rollercoaster like absolutely insane.
It's absolutely you know aroller coaster Like absolutely
insane.
It's absolutely, you know,insane time.
But I would definitely.
(29:40):
You know I could go back and wecan't Right, but I would have
gotten the counseling for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Kian, I want to take it a step further and answering
this like what steps can we taketowards healing?
I want you to think about theperson that may have been
impacted by trauma, maybe havinga tough time emotionally and
mentally.
What steps can we take towardshealing?
What does that look like?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, so.
So, first of all, I think itlooks vocal, right.
So one of the things that I,you know, I said this you know
this character, my novel that'sdealing with her trauma.
She's you know, she's doing itby ignoring it, right, and by
remaining silent.
But I think that the first stepis to actually be vocal, you
(30:28):
know, to actually allow yourselfto say out loud this happened
to me, right, and this hurts.
This happened to me and now I'mhaving this issue.
This happened and you know, andnow I'm experiencing this
consequence Like to actuallyallow yourself to put it out
(30:48):
there, right, to speak about it,out there, right, to speak
about it, to tell our stories.
I think that is so important,right, for me.
I've found so much healing inwriting, but there's so much
(31:10):
healing in speaking and insharing and in telling our
stories.
We mentioned seeking counseling.
When we need counseling,seeking therapy, we need therapy
, right, the Bible advises us infavor of wise counsel, right,
um, yes, we have the Holy Spiritliving inside us and, yes, God
speaks to us and, yes, I canattest that God has sustained me
, um, through that storm andafter that storm, sustained me
(31:37):
through that storm and afterthat storm, but this body is
still a physical body that isexperiencing physical reactions
to trauma, right, and God hasgiven us medical care.
God has given us mental healthcare.
God has given us, you know, thestudy of the brain, right, the
ability to determine that, yes,actually trauma does have an
actual physical impact on ourbodies and you know, and on our
(32:00):
minds.
So, seeking counseling, seekingtherapy and I do believe that
you know that's not a singularthing, right?
I think when we're seekingtherapy, there's other things we
(32:21):
have to do as well.
We have to practice otheraspects of healthcare.
We certainly need to be inprayer and in communication with
God.
We certainly need to be inrelationship with others that
you know, that are in line withGod, right, so that we're
getting wise counsel.
We need to also take care ofourselves.
(32:42):
We need to rest.
You know, sometimes traumaleads to a lack of rest insomnia
, not sleeping, increasedanxiety, right, you're anxious,
your blood pressure is raised,you're experiencing generalized
anxiety and that sort of thing.
Right, these are physicalsymptoms, but they're very real.
You know, I've had all of, youknow, all of those things
(33:09):
professional care when, um,certainly when we're aware that
we cannot get it under controlon our own right, like in my
case, like I could not get thatmemory capacity back on my own.
I needed to go through, youknow, something more intrusive.
(33:29):
To do that, I could putband-aids on it, which is what
I've done over the years.
Just, you know, learningdifferent little mnemonics and
ways to sort of trick peoplewhen thinking that I actually
remember what I don't.
You know in fact remember,right.
But I think another thing is,you know, to look to our past as
well as to look to the past ofothers.
(33:50):
So, really, you know, becausewhen we go through something
traumatic, sometimes we fail toremember when we went through
and overcame something traumaticbefore, right, and so the
looking back at the past andwhat we overcome and Katrina has
(34:10):
been a gift to me in that way,because it was such a huge
crisis that every crisis afterthat crisis has been more
manageable because of thatexperience I've always been able
to look back at that crisis andknow that the same God who got
me through that is going to getme through this, right.
(34:31):
But maybe you're going throughsomething and it's like this is,
you know, the biggest crisis ofyour life.
Now, sometimes that'sperspective.
We have forgotten, you know,some of the bigger crises.
Sometimes that's perspective,but sometimes maybe it is
Certainly.
When we lost everything inKatrina, that was the biggest
thing that I had been through.
(34:51):
It is probably one of thebiggest things I've been through
, you know, in my entire life.
Right, but maybe at that pointwhen we are going through
something that is bigger thananything else we've ever been
through and we feel like wecan't go back to another moment
in our past and find anythingthat gives us the courage to go
(35:14):
on in that moment, that's whenwe need to be sitting at the
feet of the elders, that's whenwe need to, we need to hear
their stories and we need toknow how they made it over, how
did they survive, how did theygo through that and really allow
the older generation to pourinto us and tell us their
stories?
Right, I think that is a hugepart of our healing, a huge part
(35:41):
of our building the capacity tothrive in this life is sitting
at the feet of the elders andlistening to them impart their
wisdom and their experiences.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
You hit on something that's so good.
I'm reading through the Biblein a year and I'm currently in
the life of Moses, and he sayssomething about remembering the
past, and I wish you rememberGod's faithfulness, because if
we look back and see that if Goddelivered me, then he can
deliver me now, because he's thesame God yesterday, today and
forever, and depending on whatsituation that the people of god
(36:16):
was delivered from.
Moses would instruct him likeset up these 12 stones that
reference the 12 tribes ofisrael.
So that way, when your kids ortheir kids kids encounter
something, they can look back atthese songs and say you
remember that time when godparted the red sea?
Remember that time when godgave us water from a rock?
All of them to say just tobasically amen, what Kiana has
(36:37):
already said.
Sometimes, what we're goingthrough right now, we need to
look back and say, well, if Godkept me, then if God delivered,
then if God healed, then he canheal right now.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Right, right, right.
And if not me, if God kept mygrandma, then if God kept my
grandpa, then, if God kept mymama, then if God kept my
grandpa, then if God kept mymama then if God kept my daddy,
then right, if God kept right.
So it's like not even just usright, and that's why it's so
important and why it's just it'sso traumatic.
(37:09):
And this, this novel, was soimportant for me, and this, this
novel, was so important for me,like I really wanted to do this
intergenerational thing,because I think there's so much
power in remembering not onlyhow God God did it for us, yeah
but it's so important to beaware of what God did for them,
(37:36):
right.
And so you know, like no matterwhat's happening in our
individual lives, in our country, in our schools, like, looking
back at the past and seeing whatwe have overcome before should
give us all hope and confidencethat all is well.
God is sovereign, he has this,too, under control, and it's up
to us to be obedient.
Right, be obedient.
(37:57):
And when we survive trauma,right, remember to gather that
stone and add it to our arsenalof remembrance so that the next
time we go through something,we're able to look back and know
that this too, is going to pass.
(38:18):
Come on now, and not only isthis, too, going to pass, but
we're going to come out of itstronger.
We're going to come out of itbetter we're going to come out
of it.
If we go through it the rightway, we're going to come out of
it closer to God and in a moreintimate relationship with Him,
as well as with other believers.
So I just I cannot emphasizeenough and it's so funny because
(38:39):
I actually had, I actually hadJoshua 4 on my mind, right when,
you know, god told him gatherup, you know, the 12 stones,
right, and he didn't say, gatherup the 12 stones you know, just
to like keep them, you know, toyourself.
And you know, and those stones,they weren't.
(39:09):
I haven't we moved recently andI don't have.
I used to have a little, youknow, rock on.
Were not these little rocksthat you could hold in your hand
, right, because they had tolike lift them up and put them
on their shoulder and it waslike a big burden, it was like
really, really heavyrepresentation of what they had
been through but, moreimportantly, what they had
overcome right.
(39:30):
And he tells them, when yourchildren ask their fathers in
times to come, what do thesestones mean?
Tell them right, tell them thatthis is a sign of when God, you
know, dried up the Jordan,right, and so we have to be able
to do that right.
Go back and tell our stories tothe younger generation.
(39:53):
But the younger generation alsoneeds to come to the older
generation and say tell me yourstory, because right now I feel
like I'm not going to make itthrough this.
I'm about to break.
Okay, there's no way I'm goingto be able.
Let's face it.
We saw that in is it Elisha,who you know?
When he went to go wrestleunder the broom bush and he's
(40:14):
his.
His prayer to God was like justtake me out, I want to die
right now, right.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Poor Elijah he was, he was going through it.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
He was, but we've got to be able to be that raw and
that transparent.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
This guy can handle it.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yes, like I.
He was like just just just take, just take me, just take me.
I can't, I don't even, I don'teven want to try to take another
step, and sometimes we feelthat way.
Right, but God, if we can't getback to our own past and know
that we're going to be OK, wecan get back to the past of an
elder and know that, if they areOK, we are going to be just
(40:52):
fine.
We just have to go through theprocess.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Amen, and with the way that you speak words, that
should encourage my dearlisteners to make sure you go
pick up a writing, pick up abook Behind the Waterline.
I just want to recap some ofthe keys, man, because God's
been faithful in this episode.
As we've, of course, talkedabout the novel Behind the
Waterline, I want to encourageyou to grab your copy.
(41:16):
We also talked about walking inobedience and answering God's
call, and then I love how sheput it like God wants to use
your story.
So don't let the devil shut youup because God wants to use
your story.
We even hit on mental health andhow some coping mechanisms and
how God would use healing.
We need to stay connected tohim in the word, in prayer, then
, on a natural, practical side,get your rest, and also the
(41:40):
importance of community andcounseling.
And then even talked about howimportant it is to count and
recount the blessings and thefaithfulness that God has done
in our lives.
So many good nuggets Iencourage you to grab onto.
And, speaking of grabbing, makesure you grab your copy of
Behind the Waterline by, ofcourse, kiana Walker-Lameo, by
(42:00):
Blake Publishing Company.
That's the company that isputting it out on March 25th.
All right, but it's availableright now for pre-order wherever
books are sold.
Now, kiana, tell the people howcan they connect with you.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
The quickest way to find everything is to go to my
website, which is actuallywwwwriterteacherfriendcom.
Yeah, so I decided we're notgoing to deal with the people
misspelling LaMelle all the time.
It is wwwwriterteacherfriendcom.
You can also find there how toconnect with my writing group.
(42:38):
I have a writing group calledWriter Teacher Friend.
We are going to gear up duringcritique sessions, again weekly
sometimes, soon.
Sometimes we do writing sprintswhere we get together and we'll
write for like four hours at atime, like straight, with no
interruption, just to kind of,you know, push ourselves over
that hurdle.
I'm going to be adding littlewriting mini lessons this year,
(43:01):
little craft lessons before youknow we go into critique
sessions or before we go intosprint sessions.
So there's a link there.
There's a for writers tab andso there's a link to that
writers group.
There there's a link to buyBehind the Waterline.
I'm going to be adding someother links there to other works
soon as well and I'll be addinga book club guide soon, a
(43:25):
teacher's guide soon.
So that's the best.
That's sort of the one stockshop, www.
Wwwwriterteacherfriendcom.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Love it, love it and, kiana, thank you so much for
telling your story, writing yourstory, vocalizing your story
and then publishing your story,and also congratulations on the
book launch.
Y'all be sure to check the shownotes for the link so you can
order your copy today.
So, kiana, once again, thankyou so much for joining the show
.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Thank you so much.
It was great chatting your copytoday.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
So, kiana, once again thank you so much for joining
the show.
Thank you so much.
It was great chatting with youtoday.
Now allow me just to close thisepisode out with God's word.
Psalms 107, verses 28 through31 says Then they cried to the
Lord in their trouble and hedelivered them from their
distress.
He made the storm be still andthe waves of the sea were hushed
.
Then they were glad that thewaters were quiet and he brought
(44:17):
them to their desired haven.
Let them thank the Lord for hissteadfast love or his wondrous
works to the children of man.
Amen to the word of God.
Please know that I'm prayingfor you and I'm rooting for you.
Thank you so much for tuning intoday and until next time go be
all that God has called you tobe.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Free audio.
Post production by alphoniccom.
Free audio.
Post production by Alphoniccom.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome and thanks for tuning in to Real People,
real Talk Relevant conversationsthat take you from surviving to
thriving.
This is the podcast that goesthere.
My name is Paul Calcoat and I'myour host.
Now let's talk.
Hello, thriver, and welcome toReal People, real Talk, the
(00:38):
podcast ministry that equips youto thrive spiritually,
relationally and mentally.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
This episode is for those thatmay be weathering the storms of
life right now.
Or maybe you have experience orare experiencing trauma, or
maybe you just need someencouragement.
Keep listening.
Today I have a guest that hasan awesome story that is indeed
(01:00):
worth sharing.
Keanu Walker-Lamale is anexecutive writer by day, a
fiction writer by night andoccasional poet.
She is married to Dr AveryLamalle, the pastor of the
church at Jersey Village, who isa dear friend of mine and
anointed man of God.
Kiana's imagination is fueledby her childhood in the inner
city of New Orleans and morethan 20 years of teaching in the
(01:21):
public schools, and hergreat-grandmother's experience
of a lifespan of 108 years andthe endless adventures of
motherhood and, most recently,grandmotherhood as well.
Lamelle's published writingincludes inspirational academic
and literary work.
Her debut novel, behind theWaterline, which is what we're
discussing today is the winnerof the Lee Smith Novel Prize.
(01:42):
Welcome to the show Kiana.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Thank you so much.
I'm so glad to be here with youtoday.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yes, I'm super excited about this conversation.
We're going to jump right in.
Who is this book for Behind theWaterline?
Talk to us.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
All right.
Well, I'm going to answer itthis way.
You know, I'm a curriculumperson.
I've been in curriculum all ofmy adult life and there's a
concept in curriculum calledwindows and mirrors, and when
we're talking about that, we'retalking about how you look out
of a window to see others' livesthat you may never actually
connect with and you look into amirror to see your own own.
(02:26):
So this phrase started in aboutthe late 80s to understand
what's important in curriculum,but it's become a really big
thing in the world of literacyand teaching kids and I think
it's a really big part of how weread literature in general,
right?
So I say all of that to saywe've got a lot of mirrors in
this book and therefore a lot ofroom for windows as well.
So we've got a young narrator,14-year-old kid, who's feeling
(02:51):
ostracized by his peers.
He's lost his mom, Hisgrandmother, is eccentric and is
paranoid.
So we've got these characterswith these kinds of complexities
.
We've got a pastor who's inlove with a woman who doesn't
seem to love him back, An entireneighborhood of kids that are
featured in the book that havelost everything in Hurricane
(03:13):
Katrina.
Of course we have, you know,there's teachers that are
featured that have losteverything in the storm as well,
storm as well.
And then we have because itcovers more than one time period
we've got the grandmother'shistory and her struggles
throughout the height of thecivil rights movement right.
So that's lots of room for lotsof mirrors, but also lots of
(03:37):
windows.
So I don't think there's not aone answer for me.
It's really a, it's a work ofliterary fiction.
It's not necessarily YA, it'snot plot driven, it's very much
character driven.
So it's really a book foranyone who loves a good story,
but also who would benefit fromlooking into any of those
(03:59):
mirrors, but who would benefitas well to looking in, you know,
looking out of the window intosome other lives that are unlike
their own.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I love that concept windows and mirrors.
I try my best to be a bookwormfrom time to time.
I haven't heard of thatphilosophy, that concept, and I
like that.
And you touched on it just atad, but without giving it all
away, of course, because we wantour dear listeners to go and
buy the book.
But what is Behind theWaterline all about?
Just tell us a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, you know, it's really about one generation's
efforts to hide the past and howthat directly impacts and
distorts the future.
But it's also a story about how, you know, one generation fails
to acknowledge the work of thegeneration before, right?
So it's a cross-generationalpiece.
Again, a reason why it'sdifficult to say that it's just
(04:51):
YA or it's just women's fictionor it's just adult fiction,
because it is anintergenerational story.
And so we are experiencing,along with the characters, we're
experiencing the trauma thatthe young character goes through
because his grandmother isrefusing to tell him her truth,
right?
So there is a danger in notpassing on our stories.
(05:15):
But there's also a failure ofthe younger generation to even
think that the older generationhas a story worth sharing.
So it's really, you know, abook that's navigating that kind
of intergenerational complexity.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And Kiana.
I'm curious to know like whydid you make the decision to
have the grandson voice insteadof the grandmother's in the
story, as it's told?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah.
So here's the thing.
Writer's secret, that wasn't myplan.
Oh, ok, thing.
Writer's secret, that wasn't myplan when I started writing
this.
Initially, I started writing itas a love story and it was the
grandmother's story, but she wasexperiencing a lot of trauma.
(05:59):
In the very first version ofthe book, the grandson was on
his way off to college.
He actually ends up being a lotyounger in the final version
and what happened was, you know,when we create characters as
fiction writers, if we arewriting with integrity, we can't
(06:19):
make the characters do anythingthat they would not in fact do.
Characters do anything thatthey would not in fact do.
Okay, so because my characterwas struggling with her trauma
and refusing to tell her story,I couldn't make her tell her
story Right.
So it was like being at war withthe character I had created.
I was trying to tell her story,but she kept going quiet on me,
(06:40):
she wouldn't say anything.
She would only say a little bit, then she would shut down.
Quiet on me, she wouldn't sayanything, she would only say a
little bit, then she would shutdown.
And so it ended up being thatinitially, I tried to write it
from two points of view.
I tried to alternate between herpoint of view and the
grandson's point of view, and hejust became more and more vocal
as she became more and moresilent.
So there was a point, probablyat nearly a hundred pages in to
(07:06):
the very first draft of the bookthat I reached the, that I had
to kind of surrender that she'snot going to tell this story.
He's, he's the only narratorhere, and so it meant going back
and taking outs a lot andrewriting a lot at that point.
But it was necessary becauseyou know, to really be true to
(07:32):
who the character was, I had toallow her to be silent.
She wasn't ready to talk.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, I love this so much.
And, kiana, I want to take aquick, quick tangent.
But one of the goals of realpeople would talk.
I want to encourage peopleknowledge, you know, thrive
spiritually, thrive mentally andthrive relationally, but I
would encourage people to answergod's call on their lives and
to walk in purpose.
Purpose and, in your own words,like what inspired you to
(07:59):
become like an author and awriter.
What did the inspiration looklike?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
You know what it's less inspiration, I think, and
more compulsion.
It's like, you know, I didn'thave a choice.
I would be.
You know, I've always, I'vealways, I've always been a
writer.
I haven't always been apublished writer, right?
I don't remember a time in mylife that I was not a writer.
(08:25):
In fact, when Hurricane Katrinahit and you know I'm from New
Orleans and you know HurricaneKatrina is part of this story in
Behind the Waterline as well.
The novel is framed aroundHurricane Katrina I lost a
closet full of writing because Iwas a, you know, I was what I
(08:45):
would call a closet writer.
I was writing all the time youcan.
You, you have to do what Godhas created you to do and called
you to do.
So I was always writing, but Iwasn't surrendering to actually
share that writing or go publicwith it.
So I would write all the timeand then I just had like binders
of writing that you know, thatwas shelved.
(09:05):
So I don't, you know, thereisn't a singular moment when I
realized, oh, I should bewriting.
But I do think that part of whatHurricane Katrina did was it
brought me to the point of Ishould be publishing, right, I
(09:26):
should be getting my writing outthere, that it has a bigger
purpose than you know justwriting.
You know, for myself, for myown healing, for my own
processes or just for my, youknow, the sake of like getting
the story out that's on my mindso that I can focus on something
else, because sometimes it'slike I can't.
(09:49):
I can't move forward withsomething else until I pin what
needs to be pinned.
So you know, it's not, it's nota singular inspiration.
I really would say it's more ofa calling.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I ask you that because, once again, I really
want to encourage the listenersto answer God's call on their
life.
I'm reminded of a quote by LesBrownway.
He said the graveyard is therichest place on earth, because
it's there where you'll find thehopes and the dreams that were
never fulfilled, books that werenever written, songs that were
never sung, inventions that wasnever shared and cures that were
(10:30):
never discovered, all becausesomeone was too afraid to take
the first step, to keep theproblem and you know, or
determined to carry out thedream.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
I mean that's good, and you said that and I just
thought, man, there's a landfillsomewhere that has a bunch of
my unpublished writing and youcan't write the same thing twice
.
I mean I can't.
I don't know, maybe there'ssomeone who can, but it's like
you know it.
(10:56):
Just it's not the same thingtwice the next time you try to
write it.
It's going to be somethingdifferent.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Exactly Because you're a different person.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, Sometimes, sometimes even when I'm in the
moment of teaching, I'll saysomething and then someone in
the class will say, hey, can yousay that again?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And I'm like what did I say?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Can somebody else say what I just said?
Like you know, I can't evennecessarily repeat the same
thing, you know, in twoconsecutive moments much less
write the same thing afterlosing all of that writing.
So, yes, that quote definitelyspeaks to me.
And I was convicted because itwas essentially, you know, an
(11:37):
act of disobedience to not movemy writing forward, to just kind
of hoard it.
Some of that was some fear.
You have to learn how to.
You have to to release yourwriting to the world.
You also have to let it go.
Um, and I'm a perfectionist, soI'll go work and rework and
rework, and rework and reworkthings over and over again and
(11:58):
like never get to the end of it.
So that's part of it.
Um, but that you know it, itreally is like I was convicted
that I was not, I wassurrendering to the writing, but
I wasn't surrendering to thesharing.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
That's good, and could you elaborate more on that
, like, what are some practicaltips to to cross that barrier
from being a writer to being anauthor?
You touched on this, talkingabout getting over over the fear
and then, because when yourelease something, you invite
criticism into it, you inviteother people's opinions into it
and everybody got an opinion.
But once again, could you speakto moving from being a writer
(12:35):
to an author?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Part of getting your work out there is being willing
to share it with others, right,and getting over the fear of
rejection.
So one of the things thathelped me to get over the fear
of rejection and actually pursuetraditional publishing is that
I learned when I was in the MFAprogram at Houston Christian
(13:00):
that the rejection rate for umfrom publishers is about 90%.
Nine zero Right, and so, um, Iwas always an, A student, so
it's like you know, getting acouple of rejection letters is,
you know, it's just that doesn'twork, right.
(13:21):
Right, you're not used to that,and a lot of people, if you were
a good writer in school and Ischool, and right here, I want
to pause and say that there area lot of people who didn't
necessarily do well with writingin school but are phenomenal
authors and that's just becausethey leaned into their
creativity.
You know more than they leanedinto.
You know just surrendering to,you know boxes, right.
(13:43):
But I had to reframe the way Isaw rejection and my friend
Nicole Williams helped with that, so she came up with this idea
that you know, instead of goingafter one acceptance, you go
after 90 rejections.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Because that becomes the new A Right.
If the rejection rate is 90percent in publishing, then,
taking the stance I'm going togo after 90 rejections to get my
A.
It gives it gives you thecourage to put the work out
there, right, and to begin tosubmit.
Now I didn't have 90 rejectionsfor Behind the Waterline, but
(14:27):
because we reframed how, how wesaw, you know, the entry into
publishing.
It opened up the door to justsubmit, submit, submit, submit,
submit, submit, submit, right.
And that's really what it takes,you know to, to cross over from
being, you know, the closetwriter that I was in the past to
(14:51):
being a writer who's nowpushing her work out there.
You really have to just kind ofreframe it and understand that
there's going to be somerejection.
Like, even though I got somerequests for the opening
chapters and requests for thefull.
Like, even though I got somerequests for the opening
chapters and requests for thefull, not all of those landed,
you know, with a contract, right, but they did help me to
network and I've met some greatpeople, you know, along the way,
(15:14):
and even got some pieces thatwere solicited for, you know,
for other works because they'dread this and, you know, maybe
they were putting together ananthology and, you know, reached
out and said hey, we'd reallylike you to write for this
anthology, because you know welike your writing style.
If I hadn't started to put mywork out there, you know, then
the doors wouldn't, you know,have begun to open up.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Kiana, that's so good .
Thank you so much for justbeing honest and transparent and
sharing your story, justcrossing over the fear, getting
over the rejection and goingfrom writer to author.
And I just want to encouragethe listeners.
We took this Holy Spirit ledtangent like don't bear the
talent that God has given youand again I also spoke to this
like walk in obedience.
(15:58):
Don't allow fear or rejectionto deter you from God's will for
your life.
And man delayed obedience isdisobedience.
So whatever God has beencalling you to do, you need to
do it.
One thing that I've learnedabout rejection sometimes that's
really God redirection.
He's redirecting you fromsomething that you may think is
good, but he want to get you towhat is best for your life.
(16:21):
But that's enough of mepreaching, kiana.
I want to jump back into thebook.
Could you speak to the impactof trauma?
I'm sure that many of mylisteners may have experienced
trauma, may be experiencingtrauma right now in their lives.
Could you speak to that?
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Sure, sure.
So I mentioned that in thenovel it really is the
grandmother's story unfoldingthrough the grandson right, and
we talked a little bit about howit was necessary for him to
narrate because she refused tospeak right, which is often a
symptom of trauma.
(16:58):
The shutting down and refusingto tell one's story, kind of
know into yourself, can be asymptom of trauma.
Right, there is, there isresearch that shows that trauma
does actually have an impact onthe brain, right?
It changes the brain's activity.
(17:19):
There's a psychiatrist namedBruce D Perry yes, bruce D Perry
that has been researching thisfor years and looking at, like,
the neuroscience behind traumaand how it impacts the brain,
right, and so he studied this alot in children, but also, you
know, in some adult cases with.
(17:40):
You know things like PTSD, youknow how is it that?
You know, when someone hearsfirecrackers, they think that
they're back.
You know, on the lines of a war, right, and he talks about.
You know what happens to thebrain and how the part of the
brain that processes time is.
You know, like the feedbackgets stuck there and like they
(18:03):
can't get to the part of thebrain that's processing time.
And I know that that was thepast.
This is the now, right, sothere are actual physical
changes that happen to the brain.
But then there's behavioralchanges, right, I will say for
me, you know I mentioned Ididn't plan to write this book
from the perspective of thegrandson.
I plan to write it from theperspective of the grandmother.
(18:24):
I planned to write it from theperspective of the grandmother,
but I also did not plan to writea Hurricane Katrina story.
Okay, I was going to write astory that you know, was just
set in the past, but I had beenworking on writing about
Hurricane Katrina for at thetime that I started writing this
(18:47):
probably 15, 16 years I hadbeen, you know, dabbling in
Hurricane Katrina stories.
And so when I committed towriting Behind the Water Lines
and there was a point at which Iwas mapping out the
grandmother's life, I wasmapping out the grandson's life,
I was mapping out just variouscharacters and there's a point
(19:11):
on a big spreadsheet person.
So I created this bigspreadsheet and then there was a
column on that spreadsheet thatwas 2005.
And every character hadexperienced Hurricane Katrina
and I had experienced HurricaneKatrina and it could have been
like just something happened inthe novel and Hurricane Katrina
(19:33):
became the frame for it.
So Hurricane Katrina became the.
This is what is happening, andthe grandmother's past was this
is what happened.
And with the storm, everythingthat she had been trying to hide
(19:58):
because of that silence that wecan end up subjecting ourselves
to, because of trauma,everything that she tried to
hide began to be excavated withthat storm.
Right, but for me, I didn'trealize.
I did realize, but I didn'treally realize.
(20:21):
I think I had.
I did realize, but I didn'treally realize I think I had let
me say it this way I think Ihad resolved that the problems
that I had mentally post-Katrinawere just permanent problems.
And so let me give you a littlemore context.
Post-katrina, I began to have alot of problems with my memory,
(20:45):
right, and I mean I'm talkingthings that don't make sense,
right.
The funniest I laugh about itnow the funniest is like when I
turned 31, I thought I wasturning 30.
And so I, you know I waslamenting like there was, so I
wanted to, you know, to have somuch done by the time I turned
(21:08):
30.
And you know, I kept telling mymom I cannot believe I'm about
to be 30.
And you know, finally my momgoes why do you keep saying that
?
And I say because there's justso much I wanted to do by this
point.
And she said but baby, you'realready 30.
And I just if I was cryingbefore- like.
(21:33):
I was really crying, right, mylife because of that storm.
I truly thought I was 29 yearsold.
I had no memory of turning 30.
I turned 30 the month beforeHurricane Katrina, right.
But there were other things.
Like you know, I couldn'tremember who didn't live through
(21:56):
the storm and who lived throughthe storm, right, and it's the
kind of thing you don't want toask people like, hey, is your
mom still alive?
When you know you should know,right, because we, we talked
about this like I should knowwhether or not you know their,
their moms, are alive.
I should know whether or not helost his twin.
I, I should know, right, and soI was.
(22:18):
I would have like, and I calledthem white spaces, like just
like blank spots in my memorythat I just could not access,
you know.
And so at some point I went toa doctor and I asked the doctor
yeah, I brought this up, I'mthinking, well, I have like
early onset dementia, what ishappening here?
And he said, no, this is, youknow, it's a sign of PTSD and
(22:45):
you should have gottencounseling, you know, after
Hurricane Katrina.
And this was in about 2007, acouple of years after the storm
and he said you know it's, it'snot too late.
You know you could starttherapy now.
Well, paul, I was young anddumb and I didn't, you know.
I, um, you know my kids wereyoung, you know I had four, four
(23:09):
little people to take care of.
I was at the height of mycareer as a professor and I
thought you know who has timefor that, you know.
So I just came up with a bunchof tricks and mnemonic devices
and things like that you knowfrom my memory, like I, you know
, couldn't teach a class withoutdrawing a graphic of where
people sat, and like when theyswitch seats on me, I'm like, oh
(23:30):
my God, I don't know what thiskid's name is, and it's because
I was, you know, dealing withthese memory issues.
On the other side of, you know,hurricane Katrina, right, one of
the effects of the trauma,interestingly enough, after I
erode behind the waterline, Istarted to regain a lot of the
(23:53):
memory capacity, not all of it,but I started to regain memory
capacity that I had not had inyears and it came through
forcing myself to really relivethat storm and to relive the
trauma and the loss and thelooking for people and the not,
you know, having, you know, mystuff at my fingertips.
(24:15):
All of it, like just bringingmyself through that process of
reliving it actually did heal mybrain enough that I now, you
know, I am remembering mystudents names, you know, for
example, and this is the kind ofthing you know I have told
people before, but I think thatthey don't really think that
(24:37):
it's like Avery knows it's thatbad Right.
But you know, I think oftenlike people don't really think
so because I had developed somany ways of coping with it and
so many ways of disguising youknow that issue.
But the writing of the storyactually did set me on a path
(24:59):
toward healing in a way that I'mable to tangibly see because
I'm remembering more now.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Kiana, as you was answering, I was just really
appreciative of just howtransparent and real and raw you
are with your story and I thinkwe need more of that in
Christianity.
We need more of that in thechurch, more of that in media.
You spoke to the impact oftrauma and mental health, and
those are some buzzwords thatoften you know, the Christian
(25:28):
community seem.
Some of us seem not to know howto handle it.
We think two things can coexist.
You can seek healing, of course, from the Lord, and the Lord
also uses ways in the natural tobring about healing, and so,
when it comes to mental health,there's a stigma around that.
You mentioned the wordcounseling in some circles, like
(25:48):
you bring up counseling, oh,they think you're crazy.
No counseling doesn't meanyou're crazy.
Counseling means that you arebold enough, you are vulnerable
enough, you're courageous enoughto seek healing.
And you said something about.
You was at the height of yourcareer and what I got from that
is to encourage my dearlisteners you should make time
(26:10):
for healing.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Don't hide it.
And I also just want toencourage my dear listener don't
be afraid to get the help thatyou need, regardless of whatever
stigma.
The Lord, he is a wonderfulcounselor, he is the ultimate
healer, but sometimes he healsthrough other coping mechanisms.
He can heal through a miracle,because the God that we serve is
the same yesterday, today andforever.
(26:33):
But sometimes God wants to usecounseling or to use therapy,
and so I just want to encourageyou, like, whatever you may be
going through, it's OK not to beOK, but it's not OK not to get
the help that you need.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right, right, I could not agree more.
And if I could go back, you know, and have a conversation with
my somewhere between 30 and 32year old self, you know, get
counseling, um, because I, I'vespent a lot of years not being
(27:08):
able to build memory, and I, youknow, and I, I think it's, I
think it was because, uh, Ithink it was part of you know,
your brain tries to protectitself, right, and when you go
through something like, uh,something like a Hurricane,
katrina, you know, like theCalifornia wildfires that we saw
recently, you know, when you gothrough those kinds of things
(27:30):
and you suddenly have everythingtangible ripped from you, you
know, it's like the brain sortof protects itself by not
building attachments.
Right, and if I can't buildmemory, I still can't really
build attachments, you'd besurprised.
You know what I could forget,you know what I have forgotten
(27:51):
over the years, and so if Ididn't intentionally work on
remembering something, Iwouldn't remember it, right, but
I could have gotten therapy allthe way back when the doctor,
you know, mentioned it to me andsuggested it, and I would have
had years of building memory.
(28:14):
And I will tell you, there areliterally times when my kids
will maybe, you know they'llstart talking about something.
It's not that I forgeteverything, but it's crazy, the
things that I can't forget.
You know they'll start talkingabout something, or they'll ask
me a question about theirchildhood and I'm like yeah yeah
, my brain dumped that one.
Sorry, my brain just dumped it,you know.
(28:35):
So I, you know, I would tell my, I would go back and tell
myself, hey, go and, you know,and get the therapy.
It's not a sign of of weakness.
We, you know, we have toremember that we're human.
There's only one god, right, weare human and we are finite and
limited.
And so so there's, you know, weonly have so much capacity,
(28:57):
right, and sometimes we justneed help to um, to manage, you
know, to, to deal with, like the, the hugeness of life, right,
like the kids say, likesometimes life be lifing and
it's, you know, it's just a lotin going through something like
that where, literally, you loseeverything, um, essentially
(29:19):
overnight.
I was also pregnant with Janae,you know, at the time.
So we were, you know, we losteverything, found out, uh, we
were homeless and then found outwe were pregnant, all within a
matter of, you know, a rollercoaster like absolutely insane.
It's absolutely you know aroller coaster Like absolutely
insane.
It's absolutely, you know,insane time.
But I would definitely.
(29:40):
You know I could go back and wecan't Right, but I would have
gotten the counseling for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Kian, I want to take it a step further and answering
this like what steps can we taketowards healing?
I want you to think about theperson that may have been
impacted by trauma, maybe havinga tough time emotionally and
mentally.
What steps can we take towardshealing?
What does that look like?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, so.
So, first of all, I think itlooks vocal, right.
So one of the things that I,you know, I said this you know
this character, my novel that'sdealing with her trauma.
She's you know, she's doing itby ignoring it, right, and by
remaining silent.
But I think that the first stepis to actually be vocal, you
(30:28):
know, to actually allow yourselfto say out loud this happened
to me, right, and this hurts.
This happened to me and now I'mhaving this issue.
This happened and you know, andnow I'm experiencing this
consequence Like to actuallyallow yourself to put it out
(30:48):
there, right, to speak about it,out there, right, to speak
about it, to tell our stories.
I think that is so important,right, for me.
I've found so much healing inwriting, but there's so much
(31:10):
healing in speaking and insharing and in telling our
stories.
We mentioned seeking counseling.
When we need counseling,seeking therapy, we need therapy
, right, the Bible advises us infavor of wise counsel, right,
um, yes, we have the Holy Spiritliving inside us and, yes, God
speaks to us and, yes, I canattest that God has sustained me
, um, through that storm andafter that storm, sustained me
(31:37):
through that storm and afterthat storm, but this body is
still a physical body that isexperiencing physical reactions
to trauma, right, and God hasgiven us medical care.
God has given us mental healthcare.
God has given us, you know, thestudy of the brain, right, the
ability to determine that, yes,actually trauma does have an
actual physical impact on ourbodies and you know, and on our
(32:00):
minds.
So, seeking counseling, seekingtherapy and I do believe that
you know that's not a singularthing, right?
I think when we're seekingtherapy, there's other things we
(32:21):
have to do as well.
We have to practice otheraspects of healthcare.
We certainly need to be inprayer and in communication with
God.
We certainly need to be inrelationship with others that
you know, that are in line withGod, right, so that we're
getting wise counsel.
We need to also take care ofourselves.
(32:42):
We need to rest.
You know, sometimes traumaleads to a lack of rest insomnia
, not sleeping, increasedanxiety, right, you're anxious,
your blood pressure is raised,you're experiencing generalized
anxiety and that sort of thing.
Right, these are physicalsymptoms, but they're very real.
You know, I've had all of, youknow, all of those things
(33:09):
professional care when, um,certainly when we're aware that
we cannot get it under controlon our own right, like in my
case, like I could not get thatmemory capacity back on my own.
I needed to go through, youknow, something more intrusive.
(33:29):
To do that, I could putband-aids on it, which is what
I've done over the years.
Just, you know, learningdifferent little mnemonics and
ways to sort of trick peoplewhen thinking that I actually
remember what I don't.
You know in fact remember,right.
But I think another thing is,you know, to look to our past as
well as to look to the past ofothers.
(33:50):
So, really, you know, becausewhen we go through something
traumatic, sometimes we fail toremember when we went through
and overcame something traumaticbefore, right, and so the
looking back at the past andwhat we overcome and Katrina has
(34:10):
been a gift to me in that way,because it was such a huge
crisis that every crisis afterthat crisis has been more
manageable because of thatexperience I've always been able
to look back at that crisis andknow that the same God who got
me through that is going to getme through this, right.
(34:31):
But maybe you're going throughsomething and it's like this is,
you know, the biggest crisis ofyour life.
Now, sometimes that'sperspective.
We have forgotten, you know,some of the bigger crises.
Sometimes that's perspective,but sometimes maybe it is
Certainly.
When we lost everything inKatrina, that was the biggest
thing that I had been through.
(34:51):
It is probably one of thebiggest things I've been through
, you know, in my entire life.
Right, but maybe at that pointwhen we are going through
something that is bigger thananything else we've ever been
through and we feel like wecan't go back to another moment
in our past and find anythingthat gives us the courage to go
(35:14):
on in that moment, that's whenwe need to be sitting at the
feet of the elders, that's whenwe need to, we need to hear
their stories and we need toknow how they made it over, how
did they survive, how did theygo through that and really allow
the older generation to pourinto us and tell us their
stories?
Right, I think that is a hugepart of our healing, a huge part
(35:41):
of our building the capacity tothrive in this life is sitting
at the feet of the elders andlistening to them impart their
wisdom and their experiences.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
You hit on something that's so good.
I'm reading through the Biblein a year and I'm currently in
the life of Moses, and he sayssomething about remembering the
past, and I wish you rememberGod's faithfulness, because if
we look back and see that if Goddelivered me, then he can
deliver me now, because he's thesame God yesterday, today and
forever, and depending on whatsituation that the people of god
(36:16):
was delivered from.
Moses would instruct him likeset up these 12 stones that
reference the 12 tribes ofisrael.
So that way, when your kids ortheir kids kids encounter
something, they can look back atthese songs and say you
remember that time when godparted the red sea?
Remember that time when godgave us water from a rock?
All of them to say just tobasically amen, what Kiana has
(36:37):
already said.
Sometimes, what we're goingthrough right now, we need to
look back and say, well, if Godkept me, then if God delivered,
then if God healed, then he canheal right now.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Right, right, right.
And if not me, if God kept mygrandma, then if God kept my
grandpa, then, if God kept mymama, then if God kept my
grandpa, then if God kept mymama then if God kept my daddy,
then right, if God kept right.
So it's like not even just usright, and that's why it's so
important and why it's just it'sso traumatic.
(37:09):
And this, this novel, was soimportant for me, and this, this
novel, was so important for me,like I really wanted to do this
intergenerational thing,because I think there's so much
power in remembering not onlyhow God God did it for us, yeah
but it's so important to beaware of what God did for them,
(37:36):
right.
And so you know, like no matterwhat's happening in our
individual lives, in our country, in our schools, like, looking
back at the past and seeing whatwe have overcome before should
give us all hope and confidencethat all is well.
God is sovereign, he has this,too, under control, and it's up
to us to be obedient.
Right, be obedient.
(37:57):
And when we survive trauma,right, remember to gather that
stone and add it to our arsenalof remembrance so that the next
time we go through something,we're able to look back and know
that this too, is going to pass.
(38:18):
Come on now, and not only isthis, too, going to pass, but
we're going to come out of itstronger.
We're going to come out of itbetter we're going to come out
of it.
If we go through it the rightway, we're going to come out of
it closer to God and in a moreintimate relationship with Him,
as well as with other believers.
So I just I cannot emphasizeenough and it's so funny because
(38:39):
I actually had, I actually hadJoshua 4 on my mind, right when,
you know, god told him gatherup, you know, the 12 stones,
right, and he didn't say, gatherup the 12 stones you know, just
to like keep them, you know, toyourself.
And you know, and those stones,they weren't.
(39:09):
I haven't we moved recently andI don't have.
I used to have a little, youknow, rock on.
Were not these little rocksthat you could hold in your hand
, right, because they had tolike lift them up and put them
on their shoulder and it waslike a big burden, it was like
really, really heavyrepresentation of what they had
been through but, moreimportantly, what they had
overcome right.
(39:30):
And he tells them, when yourchildren ask their fathers in
times to come, what do thesestones mean?
Tell them right, tell them thatthis is a sign of when God, you
know, dried up the Jordan,right, and so we have to be able
to do that right.
Go back and tell our stories tothe younger generation.
(39:53):
But the younger generation alsoneeds to come to the older
generation and say tell me yourstory, because right now I feel
like I'm not going to make itthrough this.
I'm about to break.
Okay, there's no way I'm goingto be able.
Let's face it.
We saw that in is it Elisha,who you know?
When he went to go wrestleunder the broom bush and he's
(40:14):
his.
His prayer to God was like justtake me out, I want to die
right now, right.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Poor Elijah he was, he was going through it.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
He was, but we've got to be able to be that raw and
that transparent.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
This guy can handle it.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Yes, like I.
He was like just just just take, just take me, just take me.
I can't, I don't even, I don'teven want to try to take another
step, and sometimes we feelthat way.
Right, but God, if we can't getback to our own past and know
that we're going to be OK, wecan get back to the past of an
elder and know that, if they areOK, we are going to be just
(40:52):
fine.
We just have to go through theprocess.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Amen, and with the way that you speak words, that
should encourage my dearlisteners to make sure you go
pick up a writing, pick up abook Behind the Waterline.
I just want to recap some ofthe keys, man, because God's
been faithful in this episode.
As we've, of course, talkedabout the novel Behind the
Waterline, I want to encourageyou to grab your copy.
(41:16):
We also talked about walking inobedience and answering God's
call, and then I love how sheput it like God wants to use
your story.
So don't let the devil shut youup because God wants to use
your story.
We even hit on mental health andhow some coping mechanisms and
how God would use healing.
We need to stay connected tohim in the word, in prayer, then
, on a natural, practical side,get your rest, and also the
(41:40):
importance of community andcounseling.
And then even talked about howimportant it is to count and
recount the blessings and thefaithfulness that God has done
in our lives.
So many good nuggets Iencourage you to grab onto.
And, speaking of grabbing, makesure you grab your copy of
Behind the Waterline by, ofcourse, kiana Walker-Lameo, by
(42:00):
Blake Publishing Company.
That's the company that isputting it out on March 25th.
All right, but it's availableright now for pre-order wherever
books are sold.
Now, kiana, tell the people howcan they connect with you.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
The quickest way to find everything is to go to my
website, which is actuallywwwwriterteacherfriendcom.
Yeah, so I decided we're notgoing to deal with the people
misspelling LaMelle all the time.
It is wwwwriterteacherfriendcom.
You can also find there how toconnect with my writing group.
(42:38):
I have a writing group calledWriter Teacher Friend.
We are going to gear up duringcritique sessions, again weekly
sometimes, soon.
Sometimes we do writing sprintswhere we get together and we'll
write for like four hours at atime, like straight, with no
interruption, just to kind of,you know, push ourselves over
that hurdle.
I'm going to be adding littlewriting mini lessons this year,
(43:01):
little craft lessons before youknow we go into critique
sessions or before we go intosprint sessions.
So there's a link there.
There's a for writers tab andso there's a link to that
writers group.
There there's a link to buyBehind the Waterline.
I'm going to be adding someother links there to other works
soon as well and I'll be addinga book club guide soon, a
(43:25):
teacher's guide soon.
So that's the best.
That's sort of the one stockshop, www.
Wwwwriterteacherfriendcom.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Love it, love it and, kiana, thank you so much for
telling your story, writing yourstory, vocalizing your story
and then publishing your story,and also congratulations on the
book launch.
Y'all be sure to check the shownotes for the link so you can
order your copy today.
So, kiana, once again, thankyou so much for joining the show
.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Thank you so much.
It was great chatting your copytoday.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
So, kiana, once again thank you so much for joining
the show.
Thank you so much.
It was great chatting with youtoday.
Now allow me just to close thisepisode out with God's word.
Psalms 107, verses 28 through31 says Then they cried to the
Lord in their trouble and hedelivered them from their
distress.
He made the storm be still andthe waves of the sea were hushed
.
Then they were glad that thewaters were quiet and he brought
(44:17):
them to their desired haven.
Let them thank the Lord for hissteadfast love or his wondrous
works to the children of man.
Amen to the word of God.
Please know that I'm prayingfor you and I'm rooting for you.
Thank you so much for tuning intoday and until next time go be
all that God has called you tobe.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Free audio.
Post production by alphoniccom.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!