January 29, 2025 • 31 mins
Join Denise Bard and Ann as we unravel the complexity of what truly lies beneath behaviors labeled as attention-seeking, especially in children dealing with trauma. Trauma and loss can profoundly impact a child’s need for connection. We aim to shift perspectives, advocating for empathy and understanding from adults and educators towards children unfairly labeled as “bad.”
Our conversation extends beyond childhood, exploring how unaddressed needs can manifest into adulthood, often leading to more significant issues, as seen in our work with women in jail. We examine how the absence of connection in formative years can derail lives and emphasize the pivotal role as adults play by simply asking if someone is okay. Through personal stories and professional encounters, we aim to foster a compassionate society that prioritizes genuine connection over superficial labels. Tune in to understand how meaningful connections can change lives and join us next week as we continue this vital discussion.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne and we have DeniseBard back for this episode.
This is an interesting onebecause the first time I heard
the difference betweenattention-seeking versus
connection-seeking, it literallystopped me in my thoughts.
I would have said that I was anattention-seeking individual
(00:29):
after my dad passed away, youknow.
I mean my sister was also givento the system and my adoptive
mom took me on a six-week tripto God knows where, you know,
all over the place, and it wasjust a really crazy time for me
and I started.
I know I was anattention-seeking person, denise
.
You and I talked about how Ifelt like I was an alien in my
(00:53):
own body and I became acompletely different person
after that.
I oftentimes say how you know,time was split.
It was cut in half betweenbefore my dad and after my dad.
I know for a fact that peoplethe adults in the room would
have called me for sure theattention seeker.
(01:14):
I was craving for someone topay attention to me, but back
then there was no term forseeking connection.
You know they just didn't talklike that.
Back then it was if you eitherneeded attention, period.
You are that person.
You're that kid.
Bad behaviors were just thatyou were labeled, you were the
(01:39):
negative term in the classroomand I felt it, I wore it, I did
weird things.
I did not do horrible things, Iwasn't that person, but I did
drink and I snuck alcohol intothe building and I hid it in the
bathroom.
I did things like purposely tryto get the attention of adults,
(01:59):
and you know it wasn't anythinghorrible.
You know, I think I've toldthis story before, but you know,
like I wanted the attention ofthis teacher and she was dating
this guy who was also a teacher,and so I snuck into her room
and I think I was like in 10thgrade and I snuck into her room
(02:22):
when nobody was in there and Ipoured a bunch of condoms on her
desk.
Well, you know, I mean it wasfun and I just like to do kind
of goofy things.
She walked in, we're allsitting there, and she comes.
She's like who did this?
You know it's like you.
(02:44):
I mean I don't even think sheever blamed me for that, I don't
think I got caught, but I meanI just like to have fun Because
I'm an ornery person, I'm not abad person, and so that's kind
of how I sought it out.
But I also did things because Ireally did honestly want
(03:08):
connection.
You know, there was a teacherthat I connected with in seventh
grade and I just liked her.
Like you know, it kind of gaveme this mom vibe and I just
wanted connection with her.
And one day we were talkingabout math and I just I was
weird.
I said that connection with her.
And one day we were talkingabout math and I just I was
weird.
I said that I liked her and Ididn't know how to explain to
(03:32):
her that I liked her.
But it just came across reallyweird and I think she always
thought I was weird after that.
You know, I was an autisticindividual who just couldn't
really put the words togethersometimes to try to say what I
was saying and I would talk inpieces, parts, and people would
have to try to figure it out.
So you know, after that shekind of stayed away from me and
(03:57):
I did I end up, you know,running away to a person's house
and it was a teacher.
I was just looking for help.
I mean, my life was so bad atthe time and I was just looking
for some kind of help.
I think back then we didn'thave all the things that we have
(04:20):
in place now for kids.
I mean, I know that that's true.
Kids who were attention seekerswere just that.
Like I said, they were annoyingand looked down on by adults
and just expected to straightenup.
And the adults in the room knowthat there is more to the story
.
There are so many kids withone-parent homes and recognized
(04:40):
abuse.
You know it's known.
Maybe they're in the fostercare or whatever, but we know
that they've been abused so muchused to be swept under the rug.
No one ever thought these arekids that are hurting and they
are not having their needsfulfilled.
I mean, honestly, I think thatadults just expected kids and I
(05:01):
know that adults just expectedkids to act like the adults
wanted them to.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I love this episode becausethis is a topic that really hits
home.
You know, as you know, like Iwrote the book the 30 Second
Moments and the Women who RaisedMe, the 30 second moments and,
of course, like I speak, I go to, you know, to schools and I
speak to educators and when Iexplain a 30 second moment, I
said a 30 second moment is whena connection is made that goes
(05:30):
unnoticed by them, these adults,these educators, but will be
forever remembered but, mostimportantly, felt by these kids,
and this feeling echoes longafter the moment has passed
because it is those connections.
So, when I look back at my ownlife and you know, going through
the traumas and the abusessimilarly to you, where it was
(05:53):
like you were looking for thisparent, like not to get the
attention of these teachers, itwas more like wanting that
connection with them.
And then you were talking abouthow you were that kid, that bad
kid.
Well, in elementary school Iwasn't a bad kid, like I didn't
get in trouble except fortalking.
And I always say like when I'mspeaking at schools I'm like
(06:16):
just preparing myself for this.
You know what I mean.
But I will say, come middleschool, when I had to move in
with my mother full time when Iwas 12, I was going into the
sixth grade and from sixth toeighth grade it progressively
got worse and it wasn't and Isay this in the speech I wasn't
(06:37):
a bad kid, I was a hurt kid,hiding behind bad decisions, kid
hiding behind bad decisions.
So I just spoke at a school acouple of weeks ago, and it was
a middle school, where I hadthis counselor, mrs Kessler.
She's now Ms Boyd.
Now she actually came to hearme speak and it was first time
(07:00):
she really heard everything.
But when I think back to her,and when I was discussing this
in the, when I talk about this,I always said you know, when I
was doing these activities, likegetting in trouble for arguing,
then I was fighting and thenall this other stuff, I would
end up doing that so that Iwould be called down to her
(07:21):
office and it wasn't because Iyeah, I wasn't looking for that
attention.
I, every time I was with her, Ifelt a connection with her,
like it was this connection of Ialways felt safe in her
presence.
In my mind she saw the hurtingkid that was always meant to be
(07:41):
hidden inside.
That was what was in my mind.
And so you go in there lookingfor that kind of connection, and
it's the same thing.
It was like these teachers forme were these temporary moms,
and so when you're looking forthat kind of relationship, it
isn't an intention, it is allabout that connection, because
that's the desire at least, thatI had Connection is a basic
(08:04):
need.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
We don't really even talk about that connection
because that's the desire, atleast, that I had.
You know Connection is a basicneed.
Right, you know we don't reallyeven talk about that, but you
know you need the food, thewater, the shelter, but
connection is one of those basicneeds that we have to have to
reach our full potential.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, and especially, I think, especially for those
of us who have experiencedtrauma you know as kids.
When you're in thatdevelopmental stage, oh my God,
you know we need that.
And when you don't get it, youget to the adult age.
And you were so like.
(08:42):
Now what so like um, now what?
Yeah, and it's like you knowwhat and and I think we've had
this conversation before too,where even as adults, we were
looking for that connection aswell like it doesn't you know
and healed or whatever.
And I'm in therapy right nowfor all of this because I'm, I
realize I'm like, yeah, gosh,it's like you're even.
It doesn't matter how old youare.
(09:04):
I like truly, truly believe inthis.
It doesn't matter how old youare, you still have that craving
for a connection with, we'llsay, in a parent role.
You know I have to talk about,you know, my own like feelings.
It's like you just crave that,and when you don't have it, you
know you're going throughmourning.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I, you know, I honestly just think that we're
all built for connection.
That's what we're built for.
I mean, you know, that was theway that we were wired and you
know, even God is three in oneand that was about relationship
and he wanted connection with us.
So we're all built forrelationship, right?
(09:47):
You know, when I used to workat the jail, the women every
Christmas would turn in theirlist of kids who would not have
a Christmas and we would helpfulfill those lists.
We would go to Toys for Totsand we would fill up our cars
and you know, it was just one ofthe most joyful things that I
(10:09):
love doing at Christmas.
Giving is I love giving morethan receiving.
But you know, it was such along list of kids who would not
have anything for Christmas andthey were so grateful.
And the other side of that wasthat there were no cards that
(10:32):
would come in for dads.
Isn't that interesting that is.
You know, there are so manywomen that are out there that
are just doing it, and the menjust and I'm not gonna, you know
, because there's a lot of menout there that are pulling their
weight and they're maybe thesingle parent yeah but I'm just
(10:55):
telling you my you know what Isaw when I was involved in the
jails and there are just so manyone-parent households where
either side are doing it,working many jobs or just not
there for whatever reason.
I was that kid whose mom had towork after my dad died and I was
(11:18):
12 years old.
I was letting myself in everyday after school.
I was by myself all day fromthe time that I got home and
even Saturdays I made my owndinner, which was an old school
TV dinner, and I would do myhomework and I would not even
call my friends because I hadstrict instructions not to do it
(11:38):
and I was too afraid of my momto not listen.
So I didn't even make a phonecall and I can't tell you how
lonely I felt.
I was that 12-year-old who didnot have my rock, who was my dad
anymore.
My sister was gone and it wasjust a nightmare that I was
(12:04):
living in this house.
The only thing that was thesame was my house, my bedroom,
you know that kind of stuff, andmy mom worked like 12 hour
shifts because she owned her ownbusiness and did very well,
actually very successful, and onSaturdays as well, like I said.
(12:25):
So you know, it would be verylate when she would get home,
sometimes six days a week.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So you know, it would be very late when she would get
home.
Sometimes six days a week, yeah, I go, so, my, I guess we.
It's funny because I've been inmy house right now, this house,
since 2017.
And it is the longest that I'veever lived in one house my
entire life, and I'm 49.
This is the first time.
And so there was, you know,growing up until I was 12, I was
(12:57):
in kinship care and then backand forth with my mother, so
there was no stability.
You lose connection with peoplebecause you're coming and going
.
You know, I was lucky andfortunate that I did from the
time I was in kindergarten tofifth grade, except for one
little episode.
(13:18):
I stayed in my school andthat's where my connections were
made is because that was theonly the only constant thing
that I had.
Do you know what I mean?
And so, um, yeah, I'm kind ofsimilar.
Where you would come home and um, well, I lived with my
(13:39):
grandmother.
So, you know, for most part,and um, she was kind of there,
but you know, when they weren't,it was you.
You let yourself in, you letyou rid of her.
There was a lack of everythingat at my.
You know it was.
It was just lacking, um, exceptfor, like I said, school at
school for me is where, um, youknow, was the only like thing
(14:02):
that I constantly had every day.
Outside of that, it was, youknow, the uncertainties of
everything around you.
Do you know what I mean?
Right?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
We talk about uncertainty.
I was 12 years old and I canremember I was sick one day and
I was in bed my mom's bed,actually, because she had the
better room with the better TVand our neighbors came in and
started just cleaning all mydad's stuff out, just taking all
(14:34):
of it, and I said that's mydad's.
And they just said, well, yourmom wanted us to take these out
of here.
You know, I mean that was thething.
You know, I mean that was thething.
(15:14):
Nobody would stop to reallyjust think that I was a person,
a child, who had just lost herfather.
And let's have a conversation,let's see, if you're okay.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
My mom never talked to me about my dad.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I know I would have been difficult to have that
conversation, so it would havebeen easier for her not to do it
.
But maybe someone else yeah, Ithink that there were people
that I probably would have lethave that conversation.
Or even if you're the neighborwho's coming in to you know,
maybe not do that in front of me, Maybe if I'm homesick and I'm
in the room, maybe not do it.
But it was done so cold, as ifit was just so matter of fact.
(15:45):
It was, I don't know.
Those kind of things were justso strange to me because I am so
careful with my kids and lossand how we handle it, and
probably because of how it washandled with me, but I want I
(16:06):
like I'm so cautious about howthey experience it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I've had things done where you're questioned like do
they see you?
You're almost invisible.
So then that brings again whenyou feel this and you're
invisible.
You See that's a great word.
We go back to this attentionseeking and, um, yeah, dealing.
You know you're looking for, um, that connection.
(16:34):
I think it always.
I wish people would talk to youabout it because I think these
adults would talk to you.
They can understand or at leastyou know, have an idea of
what's behind your actions,what's behind or what's making
you do this or feel this way.
(16:56):
You know what I mean.
You're like you.
I mean, when you're younger youmight not open up as much, but
you hope the adults you knowkind of can see through, like I
speaking recently and thatcounselor came.
We had time to talk about thisprior where she knew something
(17:17):
wasn't right and at that timethe only thing she can do is you
know, she did call socialservices, but you know she knew
something wasn't right, right,and so I felt like again, there
was some kind of a connection tome that I felt with her.
Come out and say it, but it wasalmost like she understood why
(17:40):
I might have been choosing thethings that I have done, but it
was really apparent when I gotto speak recently and she heard
you know exactly what I wasdoing and why I was doing it, to
be able to share with thatperson Like what an amazing
experience it's.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
it's just an incredible thing to have your
teacher be able to sit out thereand hear what you were doing.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Oh yeah, I and and I've been fortunate so far the
last two schools that I'd goneto and I'm trying to these were
back in my district.
So I was traveling up to NewJersey to speak to the to the
two of the schools that I was at.
Of course, everybody's tired,but some of them actually had
these teachers that I had too,but both schools I had one
(18:28):
person come that you know Iwrite in my book about these
teachers and specific teachers,and those teachers actually came
back to listen and so I thinkwhen people don't understand the
whole topic of attention versusconnection, you do
automatically say that's the kidwho gets in trouble, that's the
kid who's driving this person.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Well, I didn't know how to seek for the connection.
So it came out in behaviors, inweird ways, you know.
So like I was so quiet,especially after my dad died,
and I would act out withbehaviors and look at a teacher
for help in, like I said, thestrangest ways it was just
(19:13):
negative.
It just came across negativeand all I wanted was connection
with someone, anyone to say canI help you, Are you okay?
I mean, are you okay?
Would have been a great threewords.
Are?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
you.
Okay, less than 30 seconds.
Yep, less than 30 seconds.
Yeah, less than 30 seconds,that's it too.
It's like, you know, when a kidhas somebody, even an adult,
you know, even today, as we, youknow, are the age we are, I
know there are some times whereit's like I just want a
(19:49):
connection with someone, adifferent thing.
Your husband, I mean well, forme, my husband, I think we have
connections with differentpeople, but when you're lacking
in certain areas, like you didwith the uh, with the person or
the teacher that you, you know,we're looking at as a mom, oh my
God, I have man.
(20:11):
I have this one teacher that Ithink, like I think she doesn't
want to be near me or come outof the woodwork, has not come to
the school, has not, you know,addressed.
She read the book but she'snever responded.
And I think it was based uponthis communication of me not
being able to express to her inmy mind, like how do I get her
(20:34):
to understand it was connection,not a, not a, attention seeking
.
I wasn't seeking her attention,I was seeking this, but, like
you said, like I think she kindof I don't know she disappeared
and I know a lot of people weretelling her about because I've
been to these schools.
Oh, we can't wait to tell her.
I'm like, no, I think I'vecommunicated in not so dire, you
(20:59):
know, you just don't know howto do it.
You know, even as adults wedon't know necessarily how to
make the connections, at least Idon't think.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Well, one of the things that I did was ran away
to a teacher's house oh, and itwas quite a ways from my house
and police neighbors, you knowthey were all involved, they
were all looking for me and Ican remember being dropped off
(21:29):
in the driveway by the policeand again I you know it's really
interesting to think this buthe didn't ask me why did you run
away?
Isn't that interesting?
I mean, today they would havedone that, they would have tried
to get down to the meat of whythis child is on the run, but
(21:51):
they didn't ask me.
They just dropped me off andleft and I don't even remember
them walking me up to the door.
Maybe he made sure I got in.
I just think that's theweirdest thing that nobody was
asking me if I was okay.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
That kid who needed attention.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
You know what Another thing happened was many years
later, one of the teachers thatwas.
He was my science teacher inseventh grade during the same
time period and I ran into himat a reunion and he said to me I
was like, oh hi, you know.
And he's like oh, I rememberyou, you had a lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, I mean, can you believe that that's what he
said?
Like how many decades later, somany years, and he still didn't
say something like yeah, wethought you were having a hard
time.
You know how did things goafter middle school?
You know something more likethat, instead of like, oh yeah,
you, you were the one, yeah youknow, yeah, yeah, I feel the
(23:05):
same way.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I feel, you know, you , you do like I ran away as well
and yeah, they don't ask you,they're like no, I mean, it was
like you know there, aren't yousee that we're crying out for
help yeah, crying out for helpyeah and no and right and nobody
, like, nobody asked.
They think that you know I, Iknow my mother had portrayed to
(23:31):
everybody that I just didn't getmy way, so that's why I was
running away.
And I think that's sad becausethere are a lot of times where
you're right.
People don't run just to run.
There's always a reason behind,there's something going on.
(23:55):
I was brought to a shelter forrunaway, abused and homeless
youth and it wasn't attentionseeking and my mother made it
out to be that I was onlylooking for attention, and she
did that several times when Iran away.
That was exactly the same thing.
(24:15):
It's just for attention.
Where it's like that's not true, it's you for attention.
Where it's like that's not true, it's, it's you're screaming
out.
But again, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be this
heavy thing for us when we'relooking for these, these
connections.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
It's, it's, yeah, I want to be really small, Like
you always say with your 32ndmoment, and when issues aren't
resolved as a kid, it leads tobigger issues as a young adult,
which can lead to bigger issuesas an adult, which could lead to
more abuse.
And you know I drink a lotbecause I just kept trying to
(24:52):
numb.
I mean, they thought that I hada drinking problem, but I really
didn't.
Well, I did, but it was anumbing problem.
That was my problem.
Was I an alcoholic?
I thought so because it ran inmy biological family.
I really just wanted thatfeeling all the time.
(25:13):
But after I grew up and I grewout of that, I realized that I
could have a drink and it notreally take me under.
I didn't have to keep doingafter that.
But it was just interestingthat it was seen again as if it
(25:33):
was my thing.
I was the big problem, what Ineeded, versus some people
around me.
It could have really benefitedif all of us work together.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I did a little bit about that too.
You know the numbing ofeverything and you know
currently, right now, I startedtherapy again because I wanted
to figure out what was like, whyI'm so stuck on again, because
I don't think that there's anage limit on these things where
you're seeking connection, andso I am like trying desperately
(26:09):
to.
I mean, I have my own thoughtsof why I look for the
connections, because when youdidn't have them and these
certain different categories ofconnection Like you don't have
the mother connection, you don'thave a father connection, or
you don't have, you know, aspouse, I have a spouse, but
you're still trying to figureout why you need this, why you
(26:31):
need this, especially, like asan adult.
I was trying to figure out whyam I so obsessed with trying to
find a connection to have?
And I think a lot of peopledon't talk about that because
you know, you figure, oh, whenyou're an adult, you can stop
seeking that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Well, the people that don't understand that are the
people that always had theconnections.
And I think that I almost seeourselves like with all these
holes in us, and here's the momhole, here's the dad hole,
here's, you know, whatever holesyou want to fulfill along the
way, from birth all the way upthrough you know, the nurturing
(27:11):
part and all that other stuffand to me I just see like a ton
of gaps where the air was justgoing through me and we're still
trying to find those things tofill those gaps you don't have
the things that for for me, whenI think about the, the, the gap
, the holes, I wondered how itwould, um, how it'd be handed
(27:33):
down to my kids.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
You know you don't have that connection as your own
self.
How do you make that connectionwith somebody else?
Especially, how do you makethat connection?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Well, I know there were people that didn't think
that I would be able to be aparent.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I know that yeah, but .
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I am a kick a parent.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I am.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I am and I put my kids first.
Yeah, I did with my first twoand I do with my three littles
now and I swore everything thatI do is for them and I swore
that I would never be like theparent I had.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
Well, you don't want, like Idon't want my kids to to seek my
attention.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You know, I feel like if we have the connection, then
they don't need that attentionfrom somebody else.
You know I don't want them toRight, I don't want them to seek
for that mom outside Correctand you know I've been.
I'm very familiar with reactiveattachment disorder.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I'm very familiar with reactive attachment
disorder and it is a thing itends up as an adult.
If it's not really taken careof and the attachment isn't
taken care of as a young child,it can turn into borderline
personality disorder and allthese other disorders when
they're older yeah, come out inall kinds of different ways.
(29:06):
It is critical that attachmentis formed as a child and I do
know people that continuallyseek and seek and seek, you know
, for that connection.
I really feel for anybody whohas never had those when I
(29:28):
worked in the group home forabused kids.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I had one.
I had one of them when he agedout.
He aged out.
What are you going to do?
You got nowhere to go.
You literally have your stuffon the front porch and it's bye.
Yeah, there was nobody on theother side to pick him up.
He ended up on my door becauseI had had him and a couple of
(29:54):
the other kids that were in theshelter at my house for
Christmas before, and it was,you know, approved and
everything.
We were allowed to do, that, infact, other staff.
We took some of the kids homebecause they had nowhere to go
and so he knew where I livedApparently.
He remembered and I opened thedoor and there he was.
(30:17):
So he's 18.
He has nowhere else to live andhe's sleeping on my couch, you
know, for a couple of months,and so we helped figure it out
for him.
But you know, I mean, it's justso critical.
What do you do with these kidsthat are like this, that become
(30:39):
adults, and it doesn't end justbecause you turn 18.
This is the end of this part ofattention seeking versus
connection seeking.
I find it really interestingbecause, you know, I'm so
thankful that we have moved pastthe times of if a child is
acting out, that it is just ablanket attention-seeking
(31:02):
behavior or that we move pastthat to the point where we've
moved to.
What is this connection-seekingbehavior that we are looking at
and how can we help resolve itwithin this child or this adult?
Resolve it within this child orthis adult?
Because when I worked at thejail with the women, they were
(31:27):
all adults, but one of thecommon denominators was that
they did not have connection asa child and it turned into
bigger problems as an adult.
So let's continue thisconversation and you will hear
more next week.
Thank you for listening to partone and we will see more next
week.
Thank you for listening to partone and we will see you next
time.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne and we have DeniseBard back for this episode.
This is an interesting onebecause the first time I heard
the difference betweenattention-seeking versus
connection-seeking, it literallystopped me in my thoughts.
I would have said that I was anattention-seeking individual
(00:29):
after my dad passed away, youknow.
I mean my sister was also givento the system and my adoptive
mom took me on a six-week tripto God knows where, you know,
all over the place, and it wasjust a really crazy time for me
and I started.
I know I was anattention-seeking person, denise
.
You and I talked about how Ifelt like I was an alien in my
(00:53):
own body and I became acompletely different person
after that.
I oftentimes say how you know,time was split.
It was cut in half betweenbefore my dad and after my dad.
I know for a fact that peoplethe adults in the room would
have called me for sure theattention seeker.
(01:14):
I was craving for someone topay attention to me, but back
then there was no term forseeking connection.
You know they just didn't talklike that.
Back then it was if you eitherneeded attention, period.
You are that person.
You're that kid.
Bad behaviors were just thatyou were labeled, you were the
(01:39):
negative term in the classroomand I felt it, I wore it, I did
weird things.
I did not do horrible things, Iwasn't that person, but I did
drink and I snuck alcohol intothe building and I hid it in the
bathroom.
I did things like purposely tryto get the attention of adults,
(01:59):
and you know it wasn't anythinghorrible.
You know, I think I've toldthis story before, but you know,
like I wanted the attention ofthis teacher and she was dating
this guy who was also a teacher,and so I snuck into her room
and I think I was like in 10thgrade and I snuck into her room
(02:22):
when nobody was in there and Ipoured a bunch of condoms on her
desk.
Well, you know, I mean it wasfun and I just like to do kind
of goofy things.
She walked in, we're allsitting there, and she comes.
She's like who did this?
You know it's like you.
(02:44):
I mean I don't even think sheever blamed me for that, I don't
think I got caught, but I meanI just like to have fun Because
I'm an ornery person, I'm not abad person, and so that's kind
of how I sought it out.
But I also did things because Ireally did honestly want
(03:08):
connection.
You know, there was a teacherthat I connected with in seventh
grade and I just liked her.
Like you know, it kind of gaveme this mom vibe and I just
wanted connection with her.
And one day we were talkingabout math and I just I was
weird.
I said that connection with her.
And one day we were talkingabout math and I just I was
weird.
I said that I liked her and Ididn't know how to explain to
(03:32):
her that I liked her.
But it just came across reallyweird and I think she always
thought I was weird after that.
You know, I was an autisticindividual who just couldn't
really put the words togethersometimes to try to say what I
was saying and I would talk inpieces, parts, and people would
have to try to figure it out.
So you know, after that shekind of stayed away from me and
(03:57):
I did I end up, you know,running away to a person's house
and it was a teacher.
I was just looking for help.
I mean, my life was so bad atthe time and I was just looking
for some kind of help.
I think back then we didn'thave all the things that we have
(04:20):
in place now for kids.
I mean, I know that that's true.
Kids who were attention seekerswere just that.
Like I said, they were annoyingand looked down on by adults
and just expected to straightenup.
And the adults in the room knowthat there is more to the story
.
There are so many kids withone-parent homes and recognized
(04:40):
abuse.
You know it's known.
Maybe they're in the fostercare or whatever, but we know
that they've been abused so muchused to be swept under the rug.
No one ever thought these arekids that are hurting and they
are not having their needsfulfilled.
I mean, honestly, I think thatadults just expected kids and I
(05:01):
know that adults just expectedkids to act like the adults
wanted them to.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I love this episode becausethis is a topic that really hits
home.
You know, as you know, like Iwrote the book the 30 Second
Moments and the Women who RaisedMe, the 30 second moments and,
of course, like I speak, I go to, you know, to schools and I
speak to educators and when Iexplain a 30 second moment, I
said a 30 second moment is whena connection is made that goes
(05:30):
unnoticed by them, these adults,these educators, but will be
forever remembered but, mostimportantly, felt by these kids,
and this feeling echoes longafter the moment has passed
because it is those connections.
So, when I look back at my ownlife and you know, going through
the traumas and the abusessimilarly to you, where it was
(05:53):
like you were looking for thisparent, like not to get the
attention of these teachers, itwas more like wanting that
connection with them.
And then you were talking abouthow you were that kid, that bad
kid.
Well, in elementary school Iwasn't a bad kid, like I didn't
get in trouble except fortalking.
And I always say like when I'mspeaking at schools I'm like
(06:16):
just preparing myself for this.
You know what I mean.
But I will say, come middleschool, when I had to move in
with my mother full time when Iwas 12, I was going into the
sixth grade and from sixth toeighth grade it progressively
got worse and it wasn't and Isay this in the speech I wasn't
(06:37):
a bad kid, I was a hurt kid,hiding behind bad decisions, kid
hiding behind bad decisions.
So I just spoke at a school acouple of weeks ago, and it was
a middle school, where I hadthis counselor, mrs Kessler.
She's now Ms Boyd.
Now she actually came to hearme speak and it was first time
(07:00):
she really heard everything.
But when I think back to her,and when I was discussing this
in the, when I talk about this,I always said you know, when I
was doing these activities, likegetting in trouble for arguing,
then I was fighting and thenall this other stuff, I would
end up doing that so that Iwould be called down to her
(07:21):
office and it wasn't because Iyeah, I wasn't looking for that
attention.
I, every time I was with her, Ifelt a connection with her,
like it was this connection of Ialways felt safe in her
presence.
In my mind she saw the hurtingkid that was always meant to be
(07:41):
hidden inside.
That was what was in my mind.
And so you go in there lookingfor that kind of connection, and
it's the same thing.
It was like these teachers forme were these temporary moms,
and so when you're looking forthat kind of relationship, it
isn't an intention, it is allabout that connection, because
that's the desire at least, thatI had Connection is a basic
(08:04):
need.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
We don't really even talk about that connection
because that's the desire, atleast, that I had.
You know Connection is a basicneed.
Right, you know we don't reallyeven talk about that, but you
know you need the food, thewater, the shelter, but
connection is one of those basicneeds that we have to have to
reach our full potential.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, and especially, I think, especially for those
of us who have experiencedtrauma you know as kids.
When you're in thatdevelopmental stage, oh my God,
you know we need that.
And when you don't get it, youget to the adult age.
And you were so like.
(08:42):
Now what so like um, now what?
Yeah, and it's like you knowwhat and and I think we've had
this conversation before too,where even as adults, we were
looking for that connection aswell like it doesn't you know
and healed or whatever.
And I'm in therapy right nowfor all of this because I'm, I
realize I'm like, yeah, gosh,it's like you're even.
It doesn't matter how old youare.
(09:04):
I like truly, truly believe inthis.
It doesn't matter how old youare, you still have that craving
for a connection with, we'llsay, in a parent role.
You know I have to talk about,you know, my own like feelings.
It's like you just crave that,and when you don't have it, you
know you're going throughmourning.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I, you know, I honestly just think that we're
all built for connection.
That's what we're built for.
I mean, you know, that was theway that we were wired and you
know, even God is three in oneand that was about relationship
and he wanted connection with us.
So we're all built forrelationship, right?
(09:47):
You know, when I used to workat the jail, the women every
Christmas would turn in theirlist of kids who would not have
a Christmas and we would helpfulfill those lists.
We would go to Toys for Totsand we would fill up our cars
and you know, it was just one ofthe most joyful things that I
(10:09):
love doing at Christmas.
Giving is I love giving morethan receiving.
But you know, it was such along list of kids who would not
have anything for Christmas andthey were so grateful.
And the other side of that wasthat there were no cards that
(10:32):
would come in for dads.
Isn't that interesting that is.
You know, there are so manywomen that are out there that
are just doing it, and the menjust and I'm not gonna, you know
, because there's a lot of menout there that are pulling their
weight and they're maybe thesingle parent yeah but I'm just
(10:55):
telling you my you know what Isaw when I was involved in the
jails and there are just so manyone-parent households where
either side are doing it,working many jobs or just not
there for whatever reason.
I was that kid whose mom had towork after my dad died and I was
(11:18):
12 years old.
I was letting myself in everyday after school.
I was by myself all day fromthe time that I got home and
even Saturdays I made my owndinner, which was an old school
TV dinner, and I would do myhomework and I would not even
call my friends because I hadstrict instructions not to do it
(11:38):
and I was too afraid of my momto not listen.
So I didn't even make a phonecall and I can't tell you how
lonely I felt.
I was that 12-year-old who didnot have my rock, who was my dad
anymore.
My sister was gone and it wasjust a nightmare that I was
(12:04):
living in this house.
The only thing that was thesame was my house, my bedroom,
you know that kind of stuff, andmy mom worked like 12 hour
shifts because she owned her ownbusiness and did very well,
actually very successful, and onSaturdays as well, like I said.
(12:25):
So you know, it would be verylate when she would get home,
sometimes six days a week.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So you know, it would be very late when she would get
home.
Sometimes six days a week, yeah, I go, so, my, I guess we.
It's funny because I've been inmy house right now, this house,
since 2017.
And it is the longest that I'veever lived in one house my
entire life, and I'm 49.
This is the first time.
And so there was, you know,growing up until I was 12, I was
(12:57):
in kinship care and then backand forth with my mother, so
there was no stability.
You lose connection with peoplebecause you're coming and going
.
You know, I was lucky andfortunate that I did from the
time I was in kindergarten tofifth grade, except for one
little episode.
(13:18):
I stayed in my school andthat's where my connections were
made is because that was theonly the only constant thing
that I had.
Do you know what I mean?
And so, um, yeah, I'm kind ofsimilar.
Where you would come home and um, well, I lived with my
(13:39):
grandmother.
So, you know, for most part,and um, she was kind of there,
but you know, when they weren't,it was you.
You let yourself in, you letyou rid of her.
There was a lack of everythingat at my.
You know it was.
It was just lacking, um, exceptfor, like I said, school at
school for me is where, um, youknow, was the only like thing
(14:02):
that I constantly had every day.
Outside of that, it was, youknow, the uncertainties of
everything around you.
Do you know what I mean?
Right?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
We talk about uncertainty.
I was 12 years old and I canremember I was sick one day and
I was in bed my mom's bed,actually, because she had the
better room with the better TVand our neighbors came in and
started just cleaning all mydad's stuff out, just taking all
(14:34):
of it, and I said that's mydad's.
And they just said, well, yourmom wanted us to take these out
of here.
You know, I mean that was thething.
You know, I mean that was thething.
(15:14):
Nobody would stop to reallyjust think that I was a person,
a child, who had just lost herfather.
And let's have a conversation,let's see, if you're okay.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
My mom never talked to me about my dad.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I know I would have been difficult to have that
conversation, so it would havebeen easier for her not to do it
.
But maybe someone else yeah, Ithink that there were people
that I probably would have lethave that conversation.
Or even if you're the neighborwho's coming in to you know,
maybe not do that in front of me, Maybe if I'm homesick and I'm
in the room, maybe not do it.
But it was done so cold, as ifit was just so matter of fact.
(15:45):
It was, I don't know.
Those kind of things were justso strange to me because I am so
careful with my kids and lossand how we handle it, and
probably because of how it washandled with me, but I want I
(16:06):
like I'm so cautious about howthey experience it.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I've had things done where you're questioned like do
they see you?
You're almost invisible.
So then that brings again whenyou feel this and you're
invisible.
You See that's a great word.
We go back to this attentionseeking and, um, yeah, dealing.
You know you're looking for, um, that connection.
(16:34):
I think it always.
I wish people would talk to youabout it because I think these
adults would talk to you.
They can understand or at leastyou know, have an idea of
what's behind your actions,what's behind or what's making
you do this or feel this way.
(16:56):
You know what I mean.
You're like you.
I mean, when you're younger youmight not open up as much, but
you hope the adults you knowkind of can see through, like I
speaking recently and thatcounselor came.
We had time to talk about thisprior where she knew something
(17:17):
wasn't right and at that timethe only thing she can do is you
know, she did call socialservices, but you know she knew
something wasn't right, right,and so I felt like again, there
was some kind of a connection tome that I felt with her.
Come out and say it, but it wasalmost like she understood why
(17:40):
I might have been choosing thethings that I have done, but it
was really apparent when I gotto speak recently and she heard
you know exactly what I wasdoing and why I was doing it, to
be able to share with thatperson Like what an amazing
experience it's.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
it's just an incredible thing to have your
teacher be able to sit out thereand hear what you were doing.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Oh yeah, I and and I've been fortunate so far the
last two schools that I'd goneto and I'm trying to these were
back in my district.
So I was traveling up to NewJersey to speak to the to the
two of the schools that I was at.
Of course, everybody's tired,but some of them actually had
these teachers that I had too,but both schools I had one
(18:28):
person come that you know Iwrite in my book about these
teachers and specific teachers,and those teachers actually came
back to listen and so I thinkwhen people don't understand the
whole topic of attention versusconnection, you do
automatically say that's the kidwho gets in trouble, that's the
kid who's driving this person.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Well, I didn't know how to seek for the connection.
So it came out in behaviors, inweird ways, you know.
So like I was so quiet,especially after my dad died,
and I would act out withbehaviors and look at a teacher
for help in, like I said, thestrangest ways it was just
(19:13):
negative.
It just came across negativeand all I wanted was connection
with someone, anyone to say canI help you, Are you okay?
I mean, are you okay?
Would have been a great threewords.
Are?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
you.
Okay, less than 30 seconds.
Yep, less than 30 seconds.
Yeah, less than 30 seconds,that's it too.
It's like, you know, when a kidhas somebody, even an adult,
you know, even today, as we, youknow, are the age we are, I
know there are some times whereit's like I just want a
(19:49):
connection with someone, adifferent thing.
Your husband, I mean well, forme, my husband, I think we have
connections with differentpeople, but when you're lacking
in certain areas, like you didwith the uh, with the person or
the teacher that you, you know,we're looking at as a mom, oh my
God, I have man.
(20:11):
I have this one teacher that Ithink, like I think she doesn't
want to be near me or come outof the woodwork, has not come to
the school, has not, you know,addressed.
She read the book but she'snever responded.
And I think it was based uponthis communication of me not
being able to express to her inmy mind, like how do I get her
(20:34):
to understand it was connection,not a, not a, attention seeking
.
I wasn't seeking her attention,I was seeking this, but, like
you said, like I think she kindof I don't know she disappeared
and I know a lot of people weretelling her about because I've
been to these schools.
Oh, we can't wait to tell her.
I'm like, no, I think I'vecommunicated in not so dire, you
(20:59):
know, you just don't know howto do it.
You know, even as adults wedon't know necessarily how to
make the connections, at least Idon't think.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Well, one of the things that I did was ran away
to a teacher's house oh, and itwas quite a ways from my house
and police neighbors, you knowthey were all involved, they
were all looking for me and Ican remember being dropped off
(21:29):
in the driveway by the policeand again I you know it's really
interesting to think this buthe didn't ask me why did you run
away?
Isn't that interesting?
I mean, today they would havedone that, they would have tried
to get down to the meat of whythis child is on the run, but
(21:51):
they didn't ask me.
They just dropped me off andleft and I don't even remember
them walking me up to the door.
Maybe he made sure I got in.
I just think that's theweirdest thing that nobody was
asking me if I was okay.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
That kid who needed attention.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
You know what Another thing happened was many years
later, one of the teachers thatwas.
He was my science teacher inseventh grade during the same
time period and I ran into himat a reunion and he said to me I
was like, oh hi, you know.
And he's like oh, I rememberyou, you had a lot of problems.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, I mean, can you believe that that's what he
said?
Like how many decades later, somany years, and he still didn't
say something like yeah, wethought you were having a hard
time.
You know how did things goafter middle school?
You know something more likethat, instead of like, oh yeah,
you, you were the one, yeah youknow, yeah, yeah, I feel the
(23:05):
same way.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I feel, you know, you , you do like I ran away as well
and yeah, they don't ask you,they're like no, I mean, it was
like you know there, aren't yousee that we're crying out for
help yeah, crying out for helpyeah and no and right and nobody
, like, nobody asked.
They think that you know I, Iknow my mother had portrayed to
(23:31):
everybody that I just didn't getmy way, so that's why I was
running away.
And I think that's sad becausethere are a lot of times where
you're right.
People don't run just to run.
There's always a reason behind,there's something going on.
(23:55):
I was brought to a shelter forrunaway, abused and homeless
youth and it wasn't attentionseeking and my mother made it
out to be that I was onlylooking for attention, and she
did that several times when Iran away.
That was exactly the same thing.
(24:15):
It's just for attention.
Where it's like that's not true, it's you for attention.
Where it's like that's not true, it's, it's you're screaming
out.
But again, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be this
heavy thing for us when we'relooking for these, these
connections.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
It's, it's, yeah, I want to be really small, Like
you always say with your 32ndmoment, and when issues aren't
resolved as a kid, it leads tobigger issues as a young adult,
which can lead to bigger issuesas an adult, which could lead to
more abuse.
And you know I drink a lotbecause I just kept trying to
(24:52):
numb.
I mean, they thought that I hada drinking problem, but I really
didn't.
Well, I did, but it was anumbing problem.
That was my problem.
Was I an alcoholic?
I thought so because it ran inmy biological family.
I really just wanted thatfeeling all the time.
(25:13):
But after I grew up and I grewout of that, I realized that I
could have a drink and it notreally take me under.
I didn't have to keep doingafter that.
But it was just interestingthat it was seen again as if it
(25:33):
was my thing.
I was the big problem, what Ineeded, versus some people
around me.
It could have really benefitedif all of us work together.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I did a little bit about that too.
You know the numbing ofeverything and you know
currently, right now, I startedtherapy again because I wanted
to figure out what was like, whyI'm so stuck on again, because
I don't think that there's anage limit on these things where
you're seeking connection, andso I am like trying desperately
(26:09):
to.
I mean, I have my own thoughtsof why I look for the
connections, because when youdidn't have them and these
certain different categories ofconnection Like you don't have
the mother connection, you don'thave a father connection, or
you don't have, you know, aspouse, I have a spouse, but
you're still trying to figureout why you need this, why you
(26:31):
need this, especially, like asan adult.
I was trying to figure out whyam I so obsessed with trying to
find a connection to have?
And I think a lot of peopledon't talk about that because
you know, you figure, oh, whenyou're an adult, you can stop
seeking that.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Well, the people that don't understand that are the
people that always had theconnections.
And I think that I almost seeourselves like with all these
holes in us, and here's the momhole, here's the dad hole,
here's, you know, whatever holesyou want to fulfill along the
way, from birth all the way upthrough you know, the nurturing
(27:11):
part and all that other stuffand to me I just see like a ton
of gaps where the air was justgoing through me and we're still
trying to find those things tofill those gaps you don't have
the things that for for me, whenI think about the, the, the gap
, the holes, I wondered how itwould, um, how it'd be handed
(27:33):
down to my kids.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
You know you don't have that connection as your own
self.
How do you make that connectionwith somebody else?
Especially, how do you makethat connection?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Well, I know there were people that didn't think
that I would be able to be aparent.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I know that yeah, but .
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I am a kick a parent.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I am.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
I am and I put my kids first.
Yeah, I did with my first twoand I do with my three littles
now and I swore everything thatI do is for them and I swore
that I would never be like theparent I had.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
Well, you don't want, like Idon't want my kids to to seek my
attention.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You know, I feel like if we have the connection, then
they don't need that attentionfrom somebody else.
You know I don't want them toRight, I don't want them to seek
for that mom outside Correctand you know I've been.
I'm very familiar with reactiveattachment disorder.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I'm very familiar with reactive attachment
disorder and it is a thing itends up as an adult.
If it's not really taken careof and the attachment isn't
taken care of as a young child,it can turn into borderline
personality disorder and allthese other disorders when
they're older yeah, come out inall kinds of different ways.
(29:06):
It is critical that attachmentis formed as a child and I do
know people that continuallyseek and seek and seek, you know
, for that connection.
I really feel for anybody whohas never had those when I
(29:28):
worked in the group home forabused kids.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
I had one.
I had one of them when he agedout.
He aged out.
What are you going to do?
You got nowhere to go.
You literally have your stuffon the front porch and it's bye.
Yeah, there was nobody on theother side to pick him up.
He ended up on my door becauseI had had him and a couple of
(29:54):
the other kids that were in theshelter at my house for
Christmas before, and it was,you know, approved and
everything.
We were allowed to do, that, infact, other staff.
We took some of the kids homebecause they had nowhere to go
and so he knew where I livedApparently.
He remembered and I opened thedoor and there he was.
(30:17):
So he's 18.
He has nowhere else to live andhe's sleeping on my couch, you
know, for a couple of months,and so we helped figure it out
for him.
But you know, I mean, it's justso critical.
What do you do with these kidsthat are like this, that become
(30:39):
adults, and it doesn't end justbecause you turn 18.
This is the end of this part ofattention seeking versus
connection seeking.
I find it really interestingbecause, you know, I'm so
thankful that we have moved pastthe times of if a child is
acting out, that it is just ablanket attention-seeking
(31:02):
behavior or that we move pastthat to the point where we've
moved to.
What is this connection-seekingbehavior that we are looking at
and how can we help resolve itwithin this child or this adult?
Resolve it within this child orthis adult?
Because when I worked at thejail with the women, they were
(31:27):
all adults, but one of thecommon denominators was that
they did not have connection asa child and it turned into
bigger problems as an adult.
So let's continue thisconversation and you will hear
more next week.
Thank you for listening to partone and we will see more next
week.
Thank you for listening to partone and we will see you next
time.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!