December 10, 2025 • 58 mins
We bring the border into focus as a lived place, not a line, and confront how wealth disparity, US demand, and policy choices shape human lives. Gil Gillenwater shows why enlightened self interest, housing with dignity, and education beat walls and fear.
• wealth disparity between $18 an hour and $14 a day
• the border as community, not an abstract boundary
• enlightened self interest as a guiding principle
• youth loneliness, consumerism, and loss of purpose
• how US drugs, guns, and corporations fuel violence
• post 9 11 militarization and the Devil’s Highway
• predation and the cost of crossing
• from charity to reciprocity in service work
• Rancho Feliz housing plus education model
• measurable outcomes and middle class mobility
You do not want to miss it. Join us next week for part two with Gil Gillenwater.
Book: Hope on the Border
Rancho Feliz Charitable Organization
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne, where we
dive into real stories, realpeople, and the places where
pain turns into purpose.
I am Anne, and today's episodeopens with one of the most
intense beginnings of a bookthat I think I've ever read.
The book Hope on the Border byGil Gillenwater begins with a
scene from November 14th, 2009,just after sunrise in a
(00:32):
smuggling corridor on the USMexican border.
The brush is shoulder high.
The trucks come roaring towardhim.
Six masked gunmen jump out,rifles raised, shouting things
at him.
Time slows, six fingers on sixtriggers.
He has no idea if this is hislast day alive.
(00:53):
Well, he is obviously here.
And I am very glad that he is.
Today we're going to be talkingabout the border, not in a
political way or in theheadlines, but as a place where
people live, lead, hope, die.
And because of Gil and his team,rebuild their lives.
(01:14):
Gil Gillenwater is a founder ofRancho Feliz Charitable
Foundation, Inc., a cross-borderorganization that has spent
nearly four decades transformingcardboard shelters into real
communities and grantingthousands of scholarships,
building over a thousand homes,and helping families find their
(01:35):
American dream without leavingMexico.
His book is visually stunningand money from every copy
supports this work.
Today we will be exploring whythe border is not a line, it's a
place, and how American money,drugs, and guns drive violence,
(01:56):
what crossing really costs tothe human lives, and why
education, not walls, is thelong-term solution, and how
enlightened self-interest liftsboth sides.
And we're going to find out whatthat is.
This conversation will beintense at times, hopeful at
others, and deeply real andeye-opening.
And I guarantee that you willhear things on this podcast
(02:19):
today that you have never heardabout the border.
Gil, I am very honored to haveyou here today.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
Well, thank you, Ann.
It's wonderful to be with you.
That was one of the most uhcomprehensive introductions that
I've ever had, but I'll tellyou, you're spot on.
You obviously read the book.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
I did.
You are an amazing man.
Your team are just amazingpeople.
Your book reads like adocumentary.
I mean, every picture tells astory.
Let's start with that momentthat I just read about on the
smuggling quarter.
You wrote, Life on the border isconstantly on edge.
(03:00):
It bleeds.
Can you explain the tension onthe border?
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
Well, I can.
And it's so interesting that Ilive in Phoenix, Arizona, a mere
four hours away from the largestwealth disparity on the planet.
You know, if you live in Indiaand you take a step into the
next country, you're inPakistan.
It's not a big deal.
Here, you take a step fromArizona into Mexico, you go from
(03:27):
a minimum wage of about$18 anhour to$14 a day for a good job
in the McLilladora.
$14 a day?
How do you raise a family on$14a day?
And it's that wealth disparitythat creates the suffering that
happens down there.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
Yeah, when you stand at the border, what does the
quote by Paul Farmer state?
It says, some lives matter lessis the root of all that is wrong
with the world.
What does that look like for youin real life when you look at
the people down there and thatarea?
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
You bring up a very good point.
And that's why I have spent somuch time and energy on
recruiting volunteers toactually cross the border and go
into Mexico.
Since inception, we've had over28,000 volunteers cross the line
and see.
You know, it's so easy to sit uphere in Scottsdale in our little
(04:27):
bubble, which by the way, I livein about the top 1% of the
world, and say, well, why don'tthose darn Mexicans stay in
their own country?
Come down with me for a weekendand let me show you the
challenges that these peoplehave to deal with on a daily
basis, and you will never saythat again.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
You know, you just mentioned something that's
really important is that we actas if people in our immediate
circle are the only ones whomatter.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
But you point out that if the community falls
apart, the individual does, itdoesn't survive either.
So why is it dangerous to liveas if anything outside of our
immediate bubble is someoneelse's problem?
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
That's such a good question.
I I don't know that weintrospect as much as we should
as a species.
I mean, let me give you, I cameacross this the other day.
Do you know what Americans spenton pet clothing in the year
2024?
No.
No.
Five billion dollars.
(05:33):
Five billion.
Do you know how many years ofhigh school education I could
purchase with five billiondollars?
17 million years of high schooleducation for students, people
down here that can't afford it.
As a species, we are sounbalanced and we do.
(05:54):
We sit up here in our littlebubble.
I find myself doing it.
If I don't go down, you know, Igo at least once a month, I'll
get really upset when my drycleaning is a day late.
Now, give me a break.
I call those first worldproblems.
It does us all good to crossthat border and see how, you
know, there's eight and aquarter billion people on the
(06:16):
planet.
44% of them live on less than$6a day.
That's a close to 4 billionpeople.
And I'm worried about my drycleaning.
So, yes, that's why I built theplace down there so people can
actually travel and smell it andtaste it and feel what most of
the world wakes up to everymorning.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Yeah, you you uh talked about some numbers there.
You bring numbers into this bookthat are just like a punch in
the gut.
And like you just said aboutluxury items.
I mean, they spent, I think yournumber was something like$387
billion in luxury items.
I mean, the amount of luxuryitems that we spend is
(07:02):
unbelievable.
And you just talked about, youknow, the amount could educate
every child in the Westernhemisphere.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
It's it's sobering if you if you if you know the
facts and the figures.
And uh I tell you what, those ofus that live in the United
States of America have won thelargest lottery ever conducted.
SPEAKER_03 (07:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
We've won the lottery of opportunity, the
lottery of freedom.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Yeah, I mean, and then yet here we are.
I mean, we're surrounded bythings that we don't need,
feeling lonelier and more burnedout than ever.
And when kids cross the borders,you know, they lack clean water,
safe housing, and access toeducation.
And you quote, and I'm not sureif I'm gonna say this right, but
you will know a Harari, unlikeants, humans have no instinct
(07:55):
for mass cooperation.
And it really shows when youtalk about immigration, poverty,
and the border, you draw a clearline between two instincts.
There's cultural survival.
And I mean, you know, my family,me first, my country protect
identity and resources.
And there is truth in that.
I mean, there are there's someimportance to that, that we need
(08:19):
stability, but then there'scollective survival, and we are
connected whether we like it ornot.
And poverty and violence do notstay neatly contained, as you
point out.
Helping others is not charity,it's a strategy.
It is how we ensure long-termstability for everyone.
(08:40):
One side fears losing theirhomeland, the other fears losing
their life.
But both fears are real, and theonly way for our is for our
mindsets to come together tobuild a future.
What I appreciate about RanchoFeliz is that you are not
arguing to open the borders.
You are arguing for opportunitywhere they live, for giving
(09:03):
people a reason not to flee, forcreating conditions where
families can thrive in theplaces that they call home.
So here is the real question: how do we help Americans move (09:12):
undefined
from protect what's ours torecognizing that by helping
them, by lifting others up, thatit's actually protecting us too?
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Absolutely.
You you really cut right to thecore of the book, and I call it
enlightened self-interest.
We are self-interest.
We had to be, we got to the topof a food chain in a very, very
predatory environment.
We had to look out for ourselvesand then our families and then
our communities and then ournation states.
(09:47):
That's just called survival, thefittest.
Well, at some point you realizethat those instincts that got us
to where we are now are notserving us anymore.
We need to have a correction inconsciousness, if you will.
We need to exchange thisindividual uh ego for the
communal ego, because if thecommunity doesn't survive, we're
(10:11):
certainly not as individuals.
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
Yeah.
You state that money has becomea religion in America.
SPEAKER_02 (10:17):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Money is a religion in America.
I see it all the time.
And unfortunately, and this isthis is a long, this is kind of
an in-depth subject, butunfortunately, we look for our
happiness through our fivesenses.
And we will never find it.
(10:39):
We will only find a temporaryhappiness that's kind of indexed
into our sadness.
Our five senses were never meantto provide us sustained,
sustained joy.
They're like a thermostat, okay?
Gil Dillonwater, I'm hungry.
I'm really hungry, okay?
And so I take a cheeseburger andI'm not so hungry, and another
(11:01):
cheeseburger, and I pass throughthat moment, and then I have a
third and I'm stuffed.
So it's this pendulum motion.
I call it the pendulum motion ofrelative duality.
If we look in our five cinchesas a place to bring us happy, a
new car, a new wife, a newhouse, blah, blah, blah, a new
(11:22):
thing to bring us joy, we'renever gonna find it.
And just look around, lookaround in America.
Uh, we are not a happy people.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
No, no, I know I feel it.
I mean, I see it in our youngpeople.
Right.
And it's really scary.
You reference the CDC data thatsuicide is now the leading cause
of deaths at and for 14 to 15year olds.
And these are alarming numbers.
It doesn't surprise me either.
Suicide overdoses and otherforms of violence is rampant
(11:54):
with young people.
Why are American youthspiritually and emotionally
starving?
And how does that relate toloneliness and loss of purpose?
SPEAKER_02 (12:04):
We live in a consumer culture.
Money is our God.
And every message that our youngpeople see on television and on
the internet, it's not to makethem better people, it's to get
them to buy something.
Truly, think about it.
It's to get them to buysomething.
(12:24):
In fact, I would challengepeople, tell me what is the end
game of this technology?
And if you really look at it,the end game is simply more
comfort and convenience.
It's not making us betterpeople, it's not uh instilling
values, it's comfort andconvenience.
And unfortunately, a comfortablelife is not necessarily a good
(12:47):
life.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Yeah.
Everything that we're feedingthem is false, it's fake, it's
not real.
It's they're not ingestingthings that are genuinely love
and care and things like that.
Everything is uh performative,and and I feel bad for them
because when you and I grew up,it was a lot different and it's
getting worse and worse.
SPEAKER_03 (13:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
So I'm glad that the young people are going down to
the border, though, to get adifferent view.
That that exactly that was veryimpressive to me.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
Exactly.
We say we feed their stomachsand they feed our souls.
And Anne, I wish you could seeit.
Uh, first of all, they don'twant to go to begin with because
they've got their friends andthey've got their video games
and everything else.
But parents get them on the busand they get down, they're their
pants are hanging on, and theyget off the bus, and and we get
them across the border, and thenall of a sudden, it's like
(13:42):
looking at a uh a car wreck.
You they don't want to see it,they don't want to acknowledge
that this really goes on andthat they're gonna have to face
it.
And um we take them.
I I love our our fooddistributions because they pack
the food bags and then they handthem to the poor.
And there's that moment of ofshared humanity when their eyes
(14:06):
lock with these people, and allof a sudden, they get this
feeling of purpose.
It's not a selfie, it's not a anew video, it's a sense of
meaning that their lives matter.
Right.
Do you know how important thatis for the human existence, the
human experience to believe thatwe matter?
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
It's everything.
It's everything to have purpose.
It really is.
It is.
Yeah, when you don't feel it,um, you're you're lost.
And that's what I see with a lotof our young people today.
You you set the scene inDouglas, Arizona, and uh uh Agua
Priete, Mexico, if I am sayingthat right.
(14:51):
Um, can you describe the areaand how difficult it is for the
government to protect itscitizens or provide basic job
and jobs and housing?
SPEAKER_02 (15:00):
Well, yes, and it it is.
It's Agua Prieta, whichinterestingly means dirty or
brackish water.
Why they name it?
Oh my.
Why they would name a city that,I'm not sure, but that is the
name.
Douglas, Arizona has apopulation of about 13,000, 90%
of which are Border Patrol.
Agua Prieta, on the other hand,has 120,000 people, just right
(15:23):
across the border.
Now, as far as the Mexicangovernment protecting its its
people, there's that's a verycomplicated question, but it's
true.
And a big part of that is on ourbacks.
We don't like to see it.
We don't want to acknowledge itas Americans, but uh let's start
with the drug industry.
(15:43):
Do you think for one minute thatthat 40,000 murders would have
happened a couple of years agoand almost on an annual basis if
the Americans weren't snortingthat stuff up their noses?
We there would not be a supplyif there wasn't a demand.
So we are as uh culpable asMexico and Colombia and
(16:04):
everybody else for this drugsituation that's going on.
Let's start there.
How about the maquiladoras?
How about in 1994, Bill Clintonpassed NAFTA and NAFTA allowed
American companies?
I'm talking about GeneralElectric, I'm talking about
Learjet, I'm talking just aboutevery um company in America can
(16:25):
go right across the border andthey don't have to follow the
insurance.
They can pay these people$14 anhour, which in my mind is
indentured servitude.
It's darn near slavery.
So Gil Gillenwater can strollinto a Costco and buy a flat
screen TV at a deceptively lowprice of$150.
(16:48):
We're fueling that.
That discontent, that suffering,that angst.
Can you imagine Ann not beingable to provide an education for
your child?
Or let's say, God forbid yourchild's got a medical condition.
You're making$14 a day, and youcan't buy food and help that
medical condition.
I see this on a daily basis, andit uh it's not right, and it
(17:13):
doesn't have to happen.
And we're showing people waysthat that it that we can fix
that.
So we are in essentially fundingthat suffering.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
Yeah.
The names that you listed in thebook, the companies, it was so
many of them that we use everysingle day.
A slew of companies.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Yeah.
And there's no line uh line itemfor these people.
Well, you are you taking makingthe world a better place, uh,
Chrysler?
Or I mean, I'm just lookinghere.
I mean, IBM, Motorola, HughesAircraft, Z Rox, Pepsi Code,
General Electric, Samsonite,Fender Guitar.
It goes on and on and on.
Are you making the world abetter place?
(17:59):
No.
You're increasing your bottomline profit because that's the
only indicator you care about.
And that's the world we live in.
Um, I love capitalism, but Ilove capitalism with a
conscience.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Right.
Exactly.
And one of the other things thatyou mentioned was NAFTA in 1994.
Could you talk about whathappened to the farmer?
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
Well, yeah.
I don't know that if if I thinkpeople look at bottom line
profits again and they forgetthe human toll.
They came in and said, okay,NAFTA, you can bring in
genetically altered corn.
There's no tariff, there's noprice, you can sell it in
northern Mexico.
And they did, and they put twomillion campesinos, little
little dirt farmers, out ofbusiness because they can't
(18:47):
compete with Canadian megaagriculture.
They just can't.
Right.
And so there's two millionpeople in northern Mexico.
What are they gonna do?
Well, they're gonna go up andtry to get into the United
States.
If they really only have twooptions they can get involved in
the drug trade, which is verylucrative and has about a
(19:07):
lifespan of about seven months,or or you can try to get up into
the United States illegallybecause there are no, I mean,
part of the problem is there'sno uh real path, and I don't
want to get ahead of ourselvesto asylum, though.
There, there's no real path tocitizenship that's any shorter
than 12 years.
(19:27):
And so what would you do?
Well, you gotta eat.
You would jump the line.
I know I'd be the first climbingover that wall.
I guarantee you.
I know my personality, and thenyou probably would be right next
to me, Anne, just to get to aplace where we could work all
day long and be able to providefor our families and ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
Yeah, and and the only answer that sometimes they
see is to go north because ofall of this.
And Mexico really is losing itsgreatest resources.
Source, which is people.
And you s you say about 16% ofMexico's population lives
illegally in the United States.
(20:08):
And that journey, which by theway, I just could not believe
what they go through on thatjourney.
And many do not make it.
And from your perspective, whatdrives people to risk their
lives?
I mean, they risk everything todo this.
SPEAKER_02 (20:25):
Well, it's uh I mean, it's it's it's pretty
simple logic.
Um, what they're fleeing isworse than the risk they're
taking.
You know, we they all haveinternet down there.
They know how they want my life,they want your life.
They don't want to strugglebuying$14 a day and and and live
what that life they'd rather diethan live the life that that
(20:49):
type of a salary provides them.
And it's quite simple.
It really is.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, what you just saidreally does say everything about
what's going on is that thattreacherous exploitation um is
worse than the actual mission,which is horrible.
(21:14):
I mean, and many don't make it,like we were just talking about.
Yeah, we would be it'sdesperation it it at the
absolute worst.
And um, of course, if we see ourfamily and I see my kids and I
see my kids suffering, I'm gonnado everything I can.
If I'm if I look right over onthe other side of a wall or
through, you know, some holesthrough the fencing or something
(21:36):
like that, and I can see hope.
You know, I'm gonna doeverything I can to get there.
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
Absolutely.
So would everybody.
Come on, let's be real here.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
So would everybody So what you're doing makes so
much sense because you'reactually bringing them, you're
bringing all the hope to them.
I mean, that's what I love.
I mean, it's just oh my gosh, itmakes me want to cry even now.
What you're doing is just anabsolute miracle.
You were a godson that you wereplaced on that border.
Um, I wanted to ask you, what isthe Iron River?
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Well, you know, violence, uh, unfortunately, the
drug violence and the smugglingviolence and things like that is
pretty intense.
Mexico's one of the mostdangerous countries in the
world.
And um and the guns that areused to commit these crimes,
there's 7,000 gun stores on theborder uh in the United States.
On the border, there's one inMexico.
(22:32):
So uh I the number is somethinglike over 90 percent of the
crimes uh and homicides uhperpetrated in Mexico are used
with guns that are eithermanufactured in or smuggled
through the United States ofAmerica.
So we have that's the IronRiver.
It's literally a river ofweapons.
And uh and we we are behindthat.
(22:53):
We have a hand in that.
I think Americans need to see.
It's not why don't those darnMexicans, it's come on, why
don't these why don't these darnAmericans take better care of
the planet?
And um I think we keep circlingback to the bottom line profits
of these large corporations.
Uh suffering is is just not aline item.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Uh and it has to do with keepingpeople less and you know,
certain people growing more inpower and control.
I mean, I see that so much withwith what's going on there.
And how did policies post-1996and post-9-11 change what
(23:34):
actually happens on the groundat the border?
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
Well, though those were very interesting times
because all of a sudden, youknow, when our twin towers came
down, we were being invaded.
Well, the your first thought isto protect your borders, to
protect your sovereignty.
Right.
And that's one of the things,and we'll get into that later.
What happened here in 2023 wasabsolutely appalling.
But at that time, we militarizedthe border.
(23:57):
All of a sudden, our BorderPatrol became the largest police
force in the entire UnitedStates.
And um, and so we we unleash thefull force of our police and
military on people looking for abetter life.
The fact of the matter is, four4.3 million 18-wheeler trucks
(24:19):
cross our border every year.
There are some smugglers thatare human mules, but most of the
drugs coming through arevehicular.
300 million cars a year crossthe border.
That's where your drugs, it'snot some guy carrying them.
But unfortunately, we unleashedthe the power of this police
(24:40):
force onto poor people trying toget a better life.
And um the the the results are abit disastrous, as you can
imagine.
SPEAKER_00 (24:50):
Yeah, you just described the devil's highway.
It is the busiest border in theworld.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
It's the busiest and and it's the most dangerous land
border in the world.
It has both of thosedistinctions.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
And you live pretty close to there.
SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
Yes.
In fact, part of our programdown there is what I call the
Halconus, the spotter, theFalcons.
And we walk the migrant trailson the American side, and we
look for human remains becauseto me, I have a close family.
And if my brother said, Hey, I'mgoing El Norte, you know, and I
(25:27):
don't hear from him for sixmonths, eight months, I can't
find him, it would drive mecrazy.
And the fact of the matter is,in the last 30 years, 65,000
people have died on Americansoil trying to get a better
life.
Unfortunately, the desert heatand the animals and everything,
we only were able to recover13,000.
(25:50):
That means 53,000 bodies justdisintegrated, and nobody's ever
gonna know.
No mother, no father, no, no uhperson in the same church or in
the village.
We don't, you don't understand,or most people don't, the ripple
effect of losing one life,especially in such a horrific
way.
I've spent a lot of my life inthe desert.
(26:12):
Trust me, that is about theworst way you can die that there
is.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Yeah, I mean, I sat looking at those pages for a
very long time and reading yourwords about what they go
through.
Yes.
Uh, and what the smugglerspromise is, you know, they're
promise it's a lie.
And the staging towns I foundvery interesting, preparing
(26:39):
those who are getting ready totravel and what they offer them.
Could you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02 (26:46):
Yes, that's an entire economy because you've
got hundreds of thousands ofpeople coming up looking for a
better life.
And so towns like Altar Sonora,which is about 60 kilometers
from the border, when the peoplecome up on the La Bestia, they
call the train La Bestia, andthey can actually get on top of
it right north of Guatemala.
(27:07):
And it's an extremely dangerousride, but that's how a lot of
them make their way up to theborder.
Then they get to the border,then they have to have a guide
because the smugglers controlthe border.
You can't, as an individual,cross.
Um uh you can, but boy, if youget caught, I promise you, you
don't want to go down that road.
(27:29):
So that's why when I got in in2009, that story of mine, I was
absolutely petrified.
I was afraid we had stumbledacross some smugglers.
And um, but that's what they go,what you had just said.
They're promise, the people thatsign them up, all they get paid
when they sign them up.
And the crossing, if you canimagine, when I first started
(27:50):
down there, it was about$150 toget across the border.
Now it ranges anywhere from10,000 to 20,000 per person to
get across the line.
And um uh the so the recruiterswill tell them, oh, you know,
it's uh yeah, it's about a fouror five hour walk.
You're not gonna have anyproblem.
(28:11):
These people are from Chiap, butthey're from jungles, they're
from Honduras, they don't knowwhat a desert is.
And I'm telling you something,the Devil's Highway wasn't named
that way by mistake.
It is a highway to hell.
And that's where most of thesepeople are forced because of the
funnel effect.
That when we passed the law, Ithink it was also in '94, that
(28:31):
we would fence off the easiestaccess routes and we'd let the
desert be a deterrent to theothers.
Well, all it did, it wasn't adeterrent.
It just funneled people overinto these dangerous places.
And that's what's happeningright now.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny that they thought
that they were preparing themwith this little small
camouflaged backpack with shoecoverings, so people couldn't
track where they were walking,and just a little bit of water,
uh, not enough to sustainanybody, really.
SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
It's a gallon jug, a black plastic jug, so it can't
be seen.
It's made in China.
And you know what, Ann?
They only walk at night.
I have come across people thatlook like teddy bears because
they have so many choya cactusstuck in them, they can't hardly
they I don't know how they doit.
At night, it's it's impossible.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
I looked up the cactus and um I saw pictures of
just them stuck to their skinlike you show like Velcro.
Yes.
And oh my gosh.
I mean, I don't even I mean,their their bodies are covered
in these things and they can'tsee because it is nighttime,
like what you said.
SPEAKER_01 (29:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
And they just keep going because that's the only
hope that they have.
And then there's rattlesnakesand bears and so many other
things that I mean, it'samazing, I think, that anybody
would get out alive.
SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
Uh it's true.
And Anna, this is a difficultsubject for me to talk about.
I talk about it in our missingmigrant museum because I think
people need to know.
But when I go to places likeAltar and I go into the
pharmacy, the pharmacia, and Iask, what is the number one
selling item in your store?
And you would think it would bean electrolyte drink, you would
(30:29):
think it would be band-aids, youbeen gay.
No, it's short-term birthcontrol.
Because 80%, this is a UNfigure, 80% of the females who
attempt that are going to getraped.
Can you even imagine that we asa species are allowing that to
take place?
It's happening right now whileyou and I are talking on the
(30:50):
internet.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
I mean, that is just so sad.
I I read that number in yourbook, and I couldn't believe how
high it is in that the women goon this journey, knowing that
that could happen.
And they're willing to just takethat birth control pill in order
to get to the other side.
I mean, the trauma that you arewitnessing, you must carry this,
(31:14):
like you just said.
I mean, it's really hard for youto even talk about what you're
carrying, I think, is um is sodeep.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Yes, and I've thought about that a lot because
it does.
I have to decompress when I comeback to Scottsdale because the
disparity is just almost, it'sit's overwhelming.
I almost feel guilty um forliving in my house.
But my saving grace is that youknow, I've got a ton of
volunteer people with me.
This I this is my work, but uhit would none of it would happen
(31:46):
without our volunteers.
And I see firsthand the impactthat we're making.
And it's huge.
That's good.
When you educate a woman, thatthat goes on the those every
generation thereon is going tobe educated.
SPEAKER_03 (32:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
And I see they've got jobs, they're doctors.
The beauty of being in businessfor 40 years is we can see what
works and what doesn't.
And let me tell you, education,wow, it changes everything.
And and so the thecounterbalance to the horror and
the suffering is gratitudenumber one.
Thank you, thank you, thank youthat I was born on this side of
(32:23):
a fence.
And knowing that me and myvolunteers are making a
tremendous difference in a in alot of people's lives.
SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
How how do you uh help the people that on this
side that just went through ahorrific trauma?
Because leaving would be a majortrauma.
Going through that journey wouldbe a major trauma.
And now they reach the otherside.
I mean, you did, and I loved thestory.
It was difficult, the story ofJose.
(32:56):
Um could you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Yes, and I think it's important to say we don't
really, that's not what we do,help the people on once they get
across the border.
That's really not um what RanchoFelice is about.
Rancho Felice is about providingopportunity so people can live
with dignity in their homecountry, not here.
But uh Jose's story was socompelling to me.
(33:19):
I would I take our volunteergroups, and a lot of them are
high school uh kids becausethey're they're they're still
impressionable.
And I'll take them to thedeportation uh shelters and have
them hear these storiesfirsthand.
And Jose's, as you as you Ithink he was out there for eight
days or something.
Interestingly enough, I do keepin touch with him.
(33:41):
He's in Chihuahua, he can't getback across.
He has a wife of 22 years, helived in New York for 22 years.
He has a wife, he has a stepson,and he's got an eight-year-old
daughter who he hasn't seen nowin almost a year.
Uh, they do keep in touch bytelephone and by internet.
He's trying, I you know, I tellhim, don't, because if you get
(34:05):
caught this time, you're gonnago into federal penitentiary.
But how do you tell a man to notsee his daughter?
So what I've been incommunication with both sides,
and um we have offered to we areour uh dormitory complex, we
have rooms where we'll get hisuh family out, and then he can
come up from Chihuahua becausesee he he won't have to cross
(34:27):
the line.
So he could see his family, hishis family, his wife, and two
children are American citizens,so they can go into Mexico.
And so what I what I'm workingon is staging a reunion there in
Agua Prieta where the family canspend four or five days
together.
Um but I have a feeling thefinal chapter of that story is
gonna be Jose in in prisonbecause um he's doesn't have his
(34:51):
odds now of crossingsuccessfully are very slim.
But his drive to see hisdaughter and his wife and his
son, um, that almost overpowerseverything.
So it's it's just it's anuntenable situation.
It's a situation that futuregenerations are gonna look back.
You know, and like we look atthe Martin Luther King days, and
there were white water fountainsand black water fountains.
(35:14):
What were those people thinking?
You had separated families?
You could what were you youdidn't have a path for him?
What were you thinking?
History's not gonna judge uswell right now.
SPEAKER_00 (35:25):
Yeah.
I mean, and that's so d sad.
I mean, if I remember right, heneeded to get to his dad before
he passed away.
And yes, you know, that cost himeverything.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
Yes.
But he wasn't Mexico, theMexican people are so
family-oriented.
There's no way he could allowhis father to pass away without
saying one last goodbye.
Just he wouldn't he didn't carewhat the cost was, he could not
do that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, that really comes clearin in your book, um, the love
and the passion that they allhave for their families.
You uh quote Bill Clinton in thebook.
We are a nation of immigrants,but we are also a nation of
laws.
How do we balance compassion andsovereignty?
How can we dangle the Americandream and then slam doors?
(36:16):
And and how can both truths beuh true at the same time?
SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
Yeah, and they can't.
You know, it's just I'm notgonna get into politics.
I'm gonna tell you in 2021, itwas called La Invitation.
You could talk to any of themcome across.
They got the invitation to comedeclare asylum, and they did by
the thousands.
In fact, 13 million crossed intothe United States of America
(36:41):
illegally.
And I was right in the middle ofit, right?
SmackDab in the middle.
Craziest thing I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_00 (36:48):
You had no idea what you would come across.
No, and and you actually, Ithink, are the one that revealed
it.
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
My brother Troy and I, it was the oddest thing
because we were hiking themigrant trails and we were down
there and we found this almostbrand new backpack.
We find backpacks all the time.
And we we we we looked throughit, which is always kind of
strange.
You feel kind of like a voyeurbecause you've got these items
that these people have broughtso far for their new life.
(37:18):
I mean, it's hard, hard to lookat.
But this was a brand new one,and there were this like origami
folded thick paper.
And I opened them up, and I'llbe darned if they weren't Arabic
prayers, since Adam translated,and they were praying to Allah
for safe passage, so on and soforth.
We saw that, put it in the backof the truck, drove to the
(37:39):
border, and all of a sudden wesaw people, usually they're
going north.
These people, and they were theywere um Nigerian, I believe.
They were walking along theborder, going with it, and they
were as happy as they can be.
And I was looking at them,they're waving at me.
(37:59):
I've never seen like it becausethey typically run the second
they see, and they're going,We're in America, we're in
America.
And I said, Yeah, you're inAmerica, all right.
And and we got up and there wasa crowd.
There had to be 2,000 of themfrom Senegal.
And I talked to these people.
I felt a little bit exposedbecause had they wanted to turn
(38:22):
against me and my brother, wewouldn't have had a chance.
There were so many of them.
But they were coming up, shakingour hands, wanting to hug us.
We're in America, we're inAmerica.
Yeah, you're in America, allright.
And then we could see where thebollards had been cut, the
smugglers cut the uh the fence,and they were just pouring
through by the literalthousands.
(38:43):
And again, I I'm this is whatI've saw with my own eyes.
I've got photographs of it inthe book.
Um, I'm not saying right, wrong.
Well, I'm just not, I don't wantto get hung up on a political
position because this this isn'tthis isn't about left or right.
This is about how we treat ourfellow human beings.
Yeah, right.
It's about invited them in.
(39:04):
They came, they went through theDarien Gap at a tremendous risk,
the women at risk, and we getthem up here, and then we say,
Oh, we've changed our minds.
Now you're gonna be deportedback.
Shame on us.
Good gosh.
I don't care what your politicalaffiliation is, that's wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
Right.
Yeah, I mean, it would have beenso confusing to them.
SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
Their whole lives.
These are their lives.
This isn't something fun theydid on the weekend.
They sold everything.
Going through that Darien Gap, Iknow that country down there.
That's the most dangerous thing.
They're exploited every timethey turn around because the
poor always are.
It's a human thing, I suppose.
But and then to get up here, dowhat they were invited to do,
(39:51):
and the vast majority of mytalk, they weren't they weren't
running for fear of this orthat.
They wanted a better life.
Unfortunately, that doesn't.
Qualify for asylum.
Poverty doesn't, because like wesaid earlier, you know, four
billion people live in dire ppoverty.
The United States just can'ttake care of everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (40:14):
So what does qualify?
SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
You know, it's it's fear uh for gender, it's fear
for religious beliefs, it's it'sfear that your life is in
danger.
If your life is in danger andyou can prove that, then you're
eligible for uh asylum.
Interestingly, Ann, I've gotprobably 300 passports from all
over the world because as soonas they get across the border,
(40:39):
they throw their passports away.
They don't want to be identifiedand they throw their money.
I got money from all over theworld, you know, not a lot, but
coins and bills, but all thesepassports, because if they could
be identified, then it can beproven that perhaps they weren't
at risk.
It's this is a highlycoordinated thing through social
media.
Every single one of them Italked to knew exactly where to
(41:02):
cross.
They knew exactly where to turnright, they knew exactly what to
say when they saw Border Patrol.
This was all choreographed andcoordinated on social media.
And it I will I will bethrilled.
Someday we will find out who wasbehind that.
Uh I don't even want tospeculate or even speculate why.
(41:22):
There's several theories, right?
Improving a voter base, thingslike that.
I don't know.
I don't know all of those I saw.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Well, because it was it was hidden.
Right.
People didn't even know it washappening.
SPEAKER_02 (41:34):
No, and and here's the weird thing.
You're right.
I would go to the Border Patrol,I go, dude, aren't you gonna do
something?
No, we've been told to standdown.
And what they would do, theywould take them to a processing
center.
Was the processing center on themain highway?
No, it was tucked back about amile down in a valley.
You couldn't see it.
Everything had chain link withcanvas.
(41:56):
So nobody uh and the publiccould see what was going on.
Then they put them in unmarkedbuses.
This is really important.
Unmarked buses, bus them up toTucson, bus them to Phoenix.
I followed one of the buses andit went to the An Ott School, an
old school that the governmenthad bought.
And again, it had canvas allaround it, and it was loaded
(42:18):
with uh illegal immigrants whowould they were then put on
planes and flew them to uh NewYork, to Chicago.
They flew them all all over theplace.
But and I tried to, I, I, I, Itried to get in, they wouldn't
let me in.
And I said, well, what's what'sgoing on?
So then I came back and I said,you know, I'm the the founder of
the Rancho Felice CharitableFoundation and I'd like to
(42:40):
volunteer uh at the facility.
Well, then they did let me in,and I got to see what it was
about.
And it it was just a stagingstation.
I mean, but somebody hadcoordinated that, and why
they're hiding it from me as thetaxpayer who's funding it, um,
I'd be interested in knowingwhy.
And I know why, because whatthey were doing was illegal.
SPEAKER_00 (43:01):
Your your book is that there's just so much trauma
there that you just talkedabout.
It but there's also hope.
And one of the things that Ijust love about your program is
that it's about solution, real,measurable, replicable
solutions.
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
In 1987, you and your brother again, um, Troy,
left Scottsdale for aThanksgiving road trip, and you
took a wrong turn and you endedup in Agua Prieta.
Explain what you saw when youfirst arrived, when you're
you're first finding out abouthow these people are living.
SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Yes, well, thank you, because that we've intended
to go to Nogales.
I had traveled in Mexico, I knewthe poverty down there.
Uh, to some degree, I knew aboutit.
I hadn't delved into it.
We did to my brother's a funnyguy.
He telling, I missed the turn.
We ended up in Aguapier andsaid, this is an important
thing.
Spirit or God, or whatever youwant to call it, reveals itself
(44:04):
to those with a higher purpose.
I believe that.
I'm not a religious guy at all,but I have seen it over and over
and over.
And it wasn't a mistake that Iended up on a dirt road inside
of Aguaprian saw.
My Spanish is terrible, but Icould make out orphanatario.
And here's a 23-year-old girltaking care of eight children,
(44:26):
cooking tamales over a burningtire, no indoor plumbing, uh, no
heat.
And I had I had been at theSun's game, you know, two nights
before in a Coliseum in Phoenix.
I'm going, how can how can thisbe going on on the same planet?
And it was so close to four-hourdrive from my home.
(44:49):
And uh, and then and there Isaid, you know, I I have an
innate sense of just socialjustice.
This just isn't right.
It's just not right.
And so um my brother and I wentback and we got uh and I I I
made a a vow at that point.
Well, I'll do this as long asit's fun.
I've got a mantra, and that ishe who dies having had the most
(45:10):
fun wins.
I I think that's what life isabout.
So we went to Phelps Dodge andwe got them to open the haunted
hospital in Jerome, and we had aHalloween party that beat all
Halloween parties.
We raised$15,000 and went downand funded indoor plumbing.
And what what struck me then wasyou can make such a huge
(45:30):
difference in people's liveswith relatively small amounts of
money.
Fifteen thousand dollars.
All of a sudden, these kids cantake a shower.
They can they can eat foodcooked in an oven, not over a
burning tire.
It's not a lot of money, but itmakes a tremendous difference.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
Yeah, they had no electricity, no running water.
SPEAKER_02 (45:54):
God bless her.
You know, I was workingattractive, gal, and I thought,
you know, she's not worriedabout what party, what bar she's
gonna go to next.
She has devoted her life tocollecting these abandoned
little souls and seeing thatthey had food at night and
seeing they were safe.
It was remarkable.
Uh it made what I do look likenothing.
(46:15):
I mean, that's commitment there.
That's a 24-7 job she had.
SPEAKER_00 (46:20):
Well, yeah, but you saw a need and you acted on it.
You went from just dropping foodand clothes off to an entire
foundation.
So talk about seeing a need andknowing that you are the one to
make a difference and puttingyour heart into action.
Because that's what you did.
SPEAKER_02 (46:40):
Because there are two real kinds of poverty.
The easy one is the the kidswith not enough to eat, no roof
overhead.
But the the other one that'sjust as as debilitating in my
mind is that poverty of purpose,poverty of meaning.
So, what I saw when I would comedown, we would bring clothes and
we'd hand the clothes out andstuff.
But the the groups, thevolunteer groups, kept getting
(47:02):
larger and larger and larger.
And I'm thinking, well, what'sgoing on?
Well, they're obviously gettingsomething out of this.
So what we did then with thistwo-pronged approach, and as we
came up with this idea ofenlightened self-interest, it's
it's in your best interest.
It's paradoxical.
The the more you give, the moreyou receive.
(47:23):
You know, I've heard thesestatements before, but when
you're in service work, I'mjust, I could go give you
example after example afterexample how there is a divine
guidance.
When you're in service toothers, your life opens up.
Uh, one of the things that Isay, and it's kind of crude, and
(47:43):
I don't mean to be crude, butdon't volunteer.
So you've got a wonderful groupof people.
It's a vetting process.
People who volunteer who have alarger vision of the world and
their responsibility to it,they're fun to hang out with.
And we've traveled all over theworld together and we've got
difference together.
And the most important thing tome, Ann, is when I'm laying on
(48:05):
my deathbed, I can say, you knowwhat?
I'm leaving this place a littlebetter than I found it.
SPEAKER_00 (48:12):
A lot better, I would say.
And you'd have traveled all overthe world.
You even uh were took a vow fromthe Dalai Lama to remove
suffering.
And you you took that seriouslyand that enlightened
self-interest that you talkabout.
You you teach volunteers thatthe surest way to abundance is
(48:36):
through service, and you arehonest that humans are greedy,
you can call them what you want,like you just did, but they're
greedy, and but we need toharness that and use it
differently.
Yes.
How has that philosophy changedboth the people that you serve
and the volunteers who show up?
SPEAKER_02 (48:58):
Well, let me give a real quick example.
Um, when I first started this,I'd I'd get my friends, I'd say,
hey, we found this place downthere and they don't have
anything, and we're gonna get agood, we're gonna go volunteer.
Volunteer is such a weak word.
I don't even like it, I don'tbelieve in altruism, number one.
I volunteer, we're gonna govolunteer.
Uh, it's been portrayed as asacrifice.
(49:20):
I always think of a group ofguys sitting around watching a
football game, drinking beer,and the game's over, and one
says, Well, what do you want todo now?
The guy says, Well, I got anidea.
Let's go sacrifice.
Who's gonna do that?
Nobody.
So, what I did, I said, Okay,let's let's change this.
We're not volunteers, we'reguardian warriors, okay?
I'd love to we got on our HarleyDavidson's, and I got to go
(49:44):
around and say, We're gonna do aride down to Mexico, we're
guardian warriors, here's yourbadge, we're gonna kick some
poverty.
All of a sudden, everybody andtheir brother wanted to come.
And we've had huge, huge Harleyrides down.
And I would always pick thealpha.
There's always one big alphamale typically, and I'd get him,
and his name was Chuck.
(50:04):
And Chuck, come here.
And I gave him a gift, and Isaid, This would be they were
always around Christmas time.
I said, See that little girlthere?
I want you to go give her thatperson.
All right.
So he'd go over there, he'd getdown on knee and look at the
little girl, and he'd come backto me and he'd be crying.
I get choked up, think about it.
He said, Gil, she was my littlegirl.
(50:27):
We I we can't leave her here.
We we've got to do something.
I said, I know, I know, Chuck,and we will, and we will.
And his life was foreverchanged.
This big macho tough guy saw hisown daughter in that little
girl.
And so my contention is why Iwant to get everybody down
there.
Mine's a little bit differentapproach.
(50:48):
Mine is not love thy neighbor asthyself.
That's two-party, that's atwo-party system.
I don't believe in that.
Mine is I love the me I see inyou.
When we can get people tobelieve, I love the me I see in
you, because this last weekendwhen I was handing out those
foods, I saw myself.
(51:10):
I saw myself and every humanbeing.
They have the same wants, thesame dreams, they look at the
same moon.
We're all in this together.
And the most selfish thing I cando is make sure your journey is
easier.
And uh, and that's worked.
And I think once we can do that,once we can turn that greed from
(51:32):
um not enough to go around lackinto an abundance, there's more
than enough.
Here's some of mine, becausewhenever I do that, I get more
back.
When we get that chance,flipping consciousness, when
it's in our own best interest,that's when things are gonna
change.
If we continue to present it asa sacrifice, you know, six
(51:54):
thousand years of sermonshaven't done any good.
SPEAKER_00 (51:57):
And you don't believe in welfare.
SPEAKER_02 (52:00):
You say welfare.
Welfare is debilitating.
SPEAKER_00 (52:03):
Yeah, you well, yeah, I was just gonna say that
it robs people of dignity andyou believe in reciprocal
giving.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (52:11):
And what I love about this so much, both sides
contribute.
Absolutely.
Both sides are empowered.
unknown (52:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (52:18):
And I have always said that if we could take the
Bible and, you know, unravel theBible and just put it out there,
um, that's what it would looklike.
What you're talking about.
Yeah.
I really believe that that washow the Bible intended this and
what we and how we are supposedto live.
(52:39):
Can you walk us through how theworthy neighbors rent-to-owned
housing model works for atypical family?
SPEAKER_02 (52:46):
Yes.
Well, again, um, the the borderproblem is not a problem on the
border, and it's not a problemwith uh with a border patrol.
The problem is the host country.
That's the problem.
And if we let people comethrough the border, we're taking
the pressure off of what needsto change.
This country needs to change.
(53:07):
Mexico needs to change, yeah,Venezuela needs to change.
So what we do is createsituations where people can live
with dignity.
And we did that with our vecinosdinos sinfranteras subdivision.
That means worthy neighborswithout borders.
It's two and a half acres, 42duplex-style homes.
(53:29):
I get wonderful volunteers.
Ron Crater, JBZ architects, landplanner, did this wonderful land
plan where the houses are inhorseshoe shape.
So you have to look at yourneighbor.
You can't run hide in yourgarage like I do here and have a
neighbor uh to my left who Ihaven't met and been here for
nine years.
(53:50):
You have to look at yourneighbor.
We're we're common, we'recommon-minded people.
And um, so to do that, we had toraise$26,000 per home.
And then we built a 10,000square foot uh child care center
and a 5,000 square foot learningcenter.
But we had Anne a thousandapplications, over a thousand
(54:11):
applications for every singlehome.
And that was the hardest.
They'd been vetted, they'd beenthrough like six interviews by
the time Jim Armstrong and I gotto them.
We built a home four familieswith these adorable children,
and you had to pick one.
Oh, it just ripped your heart.
SPEAKER_00 (54:30):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (54:31):
Had to do that 42 times.
SPEAKER_00 (54:33):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_02 (54:33):
And um, inherent in qualifying for a home, your
children are eligible for a$33,000 a year uh private school
bilingual school scholarship.
So a lot like with the Zagastefamily, there's three kids,
that's$9,000.
That's more than the family'sincome that they would get in
(54:54):
scholarships.
Why Ann, I'm here to tell you.
One of his daughters is now adoctor, practicing doctor.
The other one is um an attorneyin Ensenada, and the third, the
young man, believe it or not,works for Rolls-Royce in Berlin,
Germany.
These are kids that were born inthe shack because education.
(55:17):
They got education.
They are gonna raise theirchildren educated.
It's just boom, it just goes onfrom there.
So that's why our the educationand housing to me kind of go
hand in hand.
But these people, they're proudof their homes.
Uh Reyes Zagassi says, you knowwhat, Gil, I found my American
dream right here in Mexicobecause it's a beautiful home
(55:38):
and they've their CC and Rs.
He can't paint it purple, hecan't put a uh a nail salon on
the third floor, and they foughtall that stuff for a long time,
but then they realize theirvalue is there.
Out of 42 homes, we havetransferred deeds to 33.
So 33 families now own their ownhomes.
We've transferred about amillion and a half in equity.
(56:00):
They have become firm members ofthe Mexican middle class.
It's just wonderful.
And it should be replicated alldown the border.
SPEAKER_00 (56:08):
It should be why it's not.
It really should be.
I uh this is a model programthat really it should be the
program.
It should be the program.
Because when you think about it,I mean, they uh contributed to
their own self, really.
And and they just had to, it wasuh interest-free housing,
(56:30):
correct?
SPEAKER_02 (56:30):
And they had to you bring up a really good point
though, Ann.
It's not welfare, just what yousaid.
They had to make payments, butthey were principal-only
payments.
They had to do 200 hours ofcommunity service work every
year.
Most important thing, theparents, if they didn't have a
high school scholarship, had togo get a GED equivalent.
(56:50):
And lastly, if their kid droppedout of school before he got or
she got their high schooldiploma, they were in default on
their lease and could beevicted.
That's how important education.
Now, would we have evicted any?
Probably not, but they don'tknow that.
I want them to know they need tokeep those kids in school.
SPEAKER_00 (57:13):
But what you asked them, they all did.
And see, it's that's how badlythey really want to contribute
to their own success.
They don't want handouts.
So I found that very umimportant.
And you are very clear that itis harder for girls.
Gil, this first hour has beenincredible.
You took us right into thedesert with you.
(57:35):
You helped us feel the dust, thefear, the urgency, and the
humanity behind every story thatyou share.
And what I keep coming back tois a simple truth that you carry
so well.
When we stop long enough to seeeach other, really see each
other.
Compassion has no borders.
You have given us so much to sitwith, the bravery, the
(57:56):
heartbreak, the humor, themoments that changed you
forever.
And honestly, we are justgetting started because there is
so much more beneath the surfaceof this work that you do.
So we're going to pause here forpart one, take a breath, think
about the impact that one lifecan make, and meet us right back
here next week.
We talk about the mission behindRancho Felice, the lives saved,
(58:18):
the lives transformed, and theuncomfortable questions that
challenge all of us to rethinkwhat responsibility and
compassion look like and a worldthat feels divided.
You do not want to miss it.
Join us next week for part twowith Gil Gillumwater.
We will see you next time.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne, where we
dive into real stories, realpeople, and the places where
pain turns into purpose.
I am Anne, and today's episodeopens with one of the most
intense beginnings of a bookthat I think I've ever read.
The book Hope on the Border byGil Gillenwater begins with a
scene from November 14th, 2009,just after sunrise in a
(00:32):
smuggling corridor on the USMexican border.
The brush is shoulder high.
The trucks come roaring towardhim.
Six masked gunmen jump out,rifles raised, shouting things
at him.
Time slows, six fingers on sixtriggers.
He has no idea if this is hislast day alive.
(00:53):
Well, he is obviously here.
And I am very glad that he is.
Today we're going to be talkingabout the border, not in a
political way or in theheadlines, but as a place where
people live, lead, hope, die.
And because of Gil and his team,rebuild their lives.
(01:14):
Gil Gillenwater is a founder ofRancho Feliz Charitable
Foundation, Inc., a cross-borderorganization that has spent
nearly four decades transformingcardboard shelters into real
communities and grantingthousands of scholarships,
building over a thousand homes,and helping families find their
(01:35):
American dream without leavingMexico.
His book is visually stunningand money from every copy
supports this work.
Today we will be exploring whythe border is not a line, it's a
place, and how American money,drugs, and guns drive violence,
(01:56):
what crossing really costs tothe human lives, and why
education, not walls, is thelong-term solution, and how
enlightened self-interest liftsboth sides.
And we're going to find out whatthat is.
This conversation will beintense at times, hopeful at
others, and deeply real andeye-opening.
And I guarantee that you willhear things on this podcast
(02:19):
today that you have never heardabout the border.
Gil, I am very honored to haveyou here today.
SPEAKER_02 (02:26):
Well, thank you, Ann.
It's wonderful to be with you.
That was one of the most uhcomprehensive introductions that
I've ever had, but I'll tellyou, you're spot on.
You obviously read the book.
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
I did.
You are an amazing man.
Your team are just amazingpeople.
Your book reads like adocumentary.
I mean, every picture tells astory.
Let's start with that momentthat I just read about on the
smuggling quarter.
You wrote, Life on the border isconstantly on edge.
(03:00):
It bleeds.
Can you explain the tension onthe border?
SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
Well, I can.
And it's so interesting that Ilive in Phoenix, Arizona, a mere
four hours away from the largestwealth disparity on the planet.
You know, if you live in Indiaand you take a step into the
next country, you're inPakistan.
It's not a big deal.
Here, you take a step fromArizona into Mexico, you go from
(03:27):
a minimum wage of about$18 anhour to$14 a day for a good job
in the McLilladora.
$14 a day?
How do you raise a family on$14a day?
And it's that wealth disparitythat creates the suffering that
happens down there.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
Yeah, when you stand at the border, what does the
quote by Paul Farmer state?
It says, some lives matter lessis the root of all that is wrong
with the world.
What does that look like for youin real life when you look at
the people down there and thatarea?
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
You bring up a very good point.
And that's why I have spent somuch time and energy on
recruiting volunteers toactually cross the border and go
into Mexico.
Since inception, we've had over28,000 volunteers cross the line
and see.
You know, it's so easy to sit uphere in Scottsdale in our little
(04:27):
bubble, which by the way, I livein about the top 1% of the
world, and say, well, why don'tthose darn Mexicans stay in
their own country?
Come down with me for a weekendand let me show you the
challenges that these peoplehave to deal with on a daily
basis, and you will never saythat again.
SPEAKER_00 (04:48):
You know, you just mentioned something that's
really important is that we actas if people in our immediate
circle are the only ones whomatter.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
But you point out that if the community falls
apart, the individual does, itdoesn't survive either.
So why is it dangerous to liveas if anything outside of our
immediate bubble is someoneelse's problem?
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
That's such a good question.
I I don't know that weintrospect as much as we should
as a species.
I mean, let me give you, I cameacross this the other day.
Do you know what Americans spenton pet clothing in the year
2024?
No.
No.
Five billion dollars.
(05:33):
Five billion.
Do you know how many years ofhigh school education I could
purchase with five billiondollars?
17 million years of high schooleducation for students, people
down here that can't afford it.
As a species, we are sounbalanced and we do.
(05:54):
We sit up here in our littlebubble.
I find myself doing it.
If I don't go down, you know, Igo at least once a month, I'll
get really upset when my drycleaning is a day late.
Now, give me a break.
I call those first worldproblems.
It does us all good to crossthat border and see how, you
know, there's eight and aquarter billion people on the
(06:16):
planet.
44% of them live on less than$6a day.
That's a close to 4 billionpeople.
And I'm worried about my drycleaning.
So, yes, that's why I built theplace down there so people can
actually travel and smell it andtaste it and feel what most of
the world wakes up to everymorning.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Yeah, you you uh talked about some numbers there.
You bring numbers into this bookthat are just like a punch in
the gut.
And like you just said aboutluxury items.
I mean, they spent, I think yournumber was something like$387
billion in luxury items.
I mean, the amount of luxuryitems that we spend is
(07:02):
unbelievable.
And you just talked about, youknow, the amount could educate
every child in the Westernhemisphere.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
It's it's sobering if you if you if you know the
facts and the figures.
And uh I tell you what, those ofus that live in the United
States of America have won thelargest lottery ever conducted.
SPEAKER_03 (07:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (07:26):
We've won the lottery of opportunity, the
lottery of freedom.
SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Yeah, I mean, and then yet here we are.
I mean, we're surrounded bythings that we don't need,
feeling lonelier and more burnedout than ever.
And when kids cross the borders,you know, they lack clean water,
safe housing, and access toeducation.
And you quote, and I'm not sureif I'm gonna say this right, but
you will know a Harari, unlikeants, humans have no instinct
(07:55):
for mass cooperation.
And it really shows when youtalk about immigration, poverty,
and the border, you draw a clearline between two instincts.
There's cultural survival.
And I mean, you know, my family,me first, my country protect
identity and resources.
And there is truth in that.
I mean, there are there's someimportance to that, that we need
(08:19):
stability, but then there'scollective survival, and we are
connected whether we like it ornot.
And poverty and violence do notstay neatly contained, as you
point out.
Helping others is not charity,it's a strategy.
It is how we ensure long-termstability for everyone.
(08:40):
One side fears losing theirhomeland, the other fears losing
their life.
But both fears are real, and theonly way for our is for our
mindsets to come together tobuild a future.
What I appreciate about RanchoFeliz is that you are not
arguing to open the borders.
You are arguing for opportunitywhere they live, for giving
(09:03):
people a reason not to flee, forcreating conditions where
families can thrive in theplaces that they call home.
So here is the real question: how do we help Americans move (09:12):
undefined
from protect what's ours torecognizing that by helping
them, by lifting others up, thatit's actually protecting us too?
SPEAKER_02 (09:27):
Absolutely.
You you really cut right to thecore of the book, and I call it
enlightened self-interest.
We are self-interest.
We had to be, we got to the topof a food chain in a very, very
predatory environment.
We had to look out for ourselvesand then our families and then
our communities and then ournation states.
(09:47):
That's just called survival, thefittest.
Well, at some point you realizethat those instincts that got us
to where we are now are notserving us anymore.
We need to have a correction inconsciousness, if you will.
We need to exchange thisindividual uh ego for the
communal ego, because if thecommunity doesn't survive, we're
(10:11):
certainly not as individuals.
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
Yeah.
You state that money has becomea religion in America.
SPEAKER_02 (10:17):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Money is a religion in America.
I see it all the time.
And unfortunately, and this isthis is a long, this is kind of
an in-depth subject, butunfortunately, we look for our
happiness through our fivesenses.
And we will never find it.
(10:39):
We will only find a temporaryhappiness that's kind of indexed
into our sadness.
Our five senses were never meantto provide us sustained,
sustained joy.
They're like a thermostat, okay?
Gil Dillonwater, I'm hungry.
I'm really hungry, okay?
And so I take a cheeseburger andI'm not so hungry, and another
(11:01):
cheeseburger, and I pass throughthat moment, and then I have a
third and I'm stuffed.
So it's this pendulum motion.
I call it the pendulum motion ofrelative duality.
If we look in our five cinchesas a place to bring us happy, a
new car, a new wife, a newhouse, blah, blah, blah, a new
(11:22):
thing to bring us joy, we'renever gonna find it.
And just look around, lookaround in America.
Uh, we are not a happy people.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
No, no, I know I feel it.
I mean, I see it in our youngpeople.
Right.
And it's really scary.
You reference the CDC data thatsuicide is now the leading cause
of deaths at and for 14 to 15year olds.
And these are alarming numbers.
It doesn't surprise me either.
Suicide overdoses and otherforms of violence is rampant
(11:54):
with young people.
Why are American youthspiritually and emotionally
starving?
And how does that relate toloneliness and loss of purpose?
SPEAKER_02 (12:04):
We live in a consumer culture.
Money is our God.
And every message that our youngpeople see on television and on
the internet, it's not to makethem better people, it's to get
them to buy something.
Truly, think about it.
It's to get them to buysomething.
(12:24):
In fact, I would challengepeople, tell me what is the end
game of this technology?
And if you really look at it,the end game is simply more
comfort and convenience.
It's not making us betterpeople, it's not uh instilling
values, it's comfort andconvenience.
And unfortunately, a comfortablelife is not necessarily a good
(12:47):
life.
SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Yeah.
Everything that we're feedingthem is false, it's fake, it's
not real.
It's they're not ingestingthings that are genuinely love
and care and things like that.
Everything is uh performative,and and I feel bad for them
because when you and I grew up,it was a lot different and it's
getting worse and worse.
SPEAKER_03 (13:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
So I'm glad that the young people are going down to
the border, though, to get adifferent view.
That that exactly that was veryimpressive to me.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
Exactly.
We say we feed their stomachsand they feed our souls.
And Anne, I wish you could seeit.
Uh, first of all, they don'twant to go to begin with because
they've got their friends andthey've got their video games
and everything else.
But parents get them on the busand they get down, they're their
pants are hanging on, and theyget off the bus, and and we get
them across the border, and thenall of a sudden, it's like
(13:42):
looking at a uh a car wreck.
You they don't want to see it,they don't want to acknowledge
that this really goes on andthat they're gonna have to face
it.
And um we take them.
I I love our our fooddistributions because they pack
the food bags and then they handthem to the poor.
And there's that moment of ofshared humanity when their eyes
(14:06):
lock with these people, and allof a sudden, they get this
feeling of purpose.
It's not a selfie, it's not a anew video, it's a sense of
meaning that their lives matter.
Right.
Do you know how important thatis for the human existence, the
human experience to believe thatwe matter?
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
It's everything.
It's everything to have purpose.
It really is.
It is.
Yeah, when you don't feel it,um, you're you're lost.
And that's what I see with a lotof our young people today.
You you set the scene inDouglas, Arizona, and uh uh Agua
Priete, Mexico, if I am sayingthat right.
(14:51):
Um, can you describe the areaand how difficult it is for the
government to protect itscitizens or provide basic job
and jobs and housing?
SPEAKER_02 (15:00):
Well, yes, and it it is.
It's Agua Prieta, whichinterestingly means dirty or
brackish water.
Why they name it?
Oh my.
Why they would name a city that,I'm not sure, but that is the
name.
Douglas, Arizona has apopulation of about 13,000, 90%
of which are Border Patrol.
Agua Prieta, on the other hand,has 120,000 people, just right
(15:23):
across the border.
Now, as far as the Mexicangovernment protecting its its
people, there's that's a verycomplicated question, but it's
true.
And a big part of that is on ourbacks.
We don't like to see it.
We don't want to acknowledge itas Americans, but uh let's start
with the drug industry.
(15:43):
Do you think for one minute thatthat 40,000 murders would have
happened a couple of years agoand almost on an annual basis if
the Americans weren't snortingthat stuff up their noses?
We there would not be a supplyif there wasn't a demand.
So we are as uh culpable asMexico and Colombia and
(16:04):
everybody else for this drugsituation that's going on.
Let's start there.
How about the maquiladoras?
How about in 1994, Bill Clintonpassed NAFTA and NAFTA allowed
American companies?
I'm talking about GeneralElectric, I'm talking about
Learjet, I'm talking just aboutevery um company in America can
(16:25):
go right across the border andthey don't have to follow the
insurance.
They can pay these people$14 anhour, which in my mind is
indentured servitude.
It's darn near slavery.
So Gil Gillenwater can strollinto a Costco and buy a flat
screen TV at a deceptively lowprice of$150.
(16:48):
We're fueling that.
That discontent, that suffering,that angst.
Can you imagine Ann not beingable to provide an education for
your child?
Or let's say, God forbid yourchild's got a medical condition.
You're making$14 a day, and youcan't buy food and help that
medical condition.
I see this on a daily basis, andit uh it's not right, and it
(17:13):
doesn't have to happen.
And we're showing people waysthat that it that we can fix
that.
So we are in essentially fundingthat suffering.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
Yeah.
The names that you listed in thebook, the companies, it was so
many of them that we use everysingle day.
A slew of companies.
SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Yeah.
And there's no line uh line itemfor these people.
Well, you are you taking makingthe world a better place, uh,
Chrysler?
Or I mean, I'm just lookinghere.
I mean, IBM, Motorola, HughesAircraft, Z Rox, Pepsi Code,
General Electric, Samsonite,Fender Guitar.
It goes on and on and on.
Are you making the world abetter place?
(17:59):
No.
You're increasing your bottomline profit because that's the
only indicator you care about.
And that's the world we live in.
Um, I love capitalism, but Ilove capitalism with a
conscience.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Right.
Exactly.
And one of the other things thatyou mentioned was NAFTA in 1994.
Could you talk about whathappened to the farmer?
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
Well, yeah.
I don't know that if if I thinkpeople look at bottom line
profits again and they forgetthe human toll.
They came in and said, okay,NAFTA, you can bring in
genetically altered corn.
There's no tariff, there's noprice, you can sell it in
northern Mexico.
And they did, and they put twomillion campesinos, little
little dirt farmers, out ofbusiness because they can't
(18:47):
compete with Canadian megaagriculture.
They just can't.
Right.
And so there's two millionpeople in northern Mexico.
What are they gonna do?
Well, they're gonna go up andtry to get into the United
States.
If they really only have twooptions they can get involved in
the drug trade, which is verylucrative and has about a
(19:07):
lifespan of about seven months,or or you can try to get up into
the United States illegallybecause there are no, I mean,
part of the problem is there'sno uh real path, and I don't
want to get ahead of ourselvesto asylum, though.
There, there's no real path tocitizenship that's any shorter
than 12 years.
(19:27):
And so what would you do?
Well, you gotta eat.
You would jump the line.
I know I'd be the first climbingover that wall.
I guarantee you.
I know my personality, and thenyou probably would be right next
to me, Anne, just to get to aplace where we could work all
day long and be able to providefor our families and ourselves.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
Yeah, and and the only answer that sometimes they
see is to go north because ofall of this.
And Mexico really is losing itsgreatest resources.
Source, which is people.
And you s you say about 16% ofMexico's population lives
illegally in the United States.
(20:08):
And that journey, which by theway, I just could not believe
what they go through on thatjourney.
And many do not make it.
And from your perspective, whatdrives people to risk their
lives?
I mean, they risk everything todo this.
SPEAKER_02 (20:25):
Well, it's uh I mean, it's it's it's pretty
simple logic.
Um, what they're fleeing isworse than the risk they're
taking.
You know, we they all haveinternet down there.
They know how they want my life,they want your life.
They don't want to strugglebuying$14 a day and and and live
what that life they'd rather diethan live the life that that
(20:49):
type of a salary provides them.
And it's quite simple.
It really is.
SPEAKER_00 (20:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, what you just saidreally does say everything about
what's going on is that thattreacherous exploitation um is
worse than the actual mission,which is horrible.
(21:14):
I mean, and many don't make it,like we were just talking about.
Yeah, we would be it'sdesperation it it at the
absolute worst.
And um, of course, if we see ourfamily and I see my kids and I
see my kids suffering, I'm gonnado everything I can.
If I'm if I look right over onthe other side of a wall or
through, you know, some holesthrough the fencing or something
(21:36):
like that, and I can see hope.
You know, I'm gonna doeverything I can to get there.
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
Absolutely.
So would everybody.
Come on, let's be real here.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
So would everybody So what you're doing makes so
much sense because you'reactually bringing them, you're
bringing all the hope to them.
I mean, that's what I love.
I mean, it's just oh my gosh, itmakes me want to cry even now.
What you're doing is just anabsolute miracle.
You were a godson that you wereplaced on that border.
Um, I wanted to ask you, what isthe Iron River?
SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
Well, you know, violence, uh, unfortunately, the
drug violence and the smugglingviolence and things like that is
pretty intense.
Mexico's one of the mostdangerous countries in the
world.
And um and the guns that areused to commit these crimes,
there's 7,000 gun stores on theborder uh in the United States.
On the border, there's one inMexico.
(22:32):
So uh I the number is somethinglike over 90 percent of the
crimes uh and homicides uhperpetrated in Mexico are used
with guns that are eithermanufactured in or smuggled
through the United States ofAmerica.
So we have that's the IronRiver.
It's literally a river ofweapons.
And uh and we we are behindthat.
(22:53):
We have a hand in that.
I think Americans need to see.
It's not why don't those darnMexicans, it's come on, why
don't these why don't these darnAmericans take better care of
the planet?
And um I think we keep circlingback to the bottom line profits
of these large corporations.
Uh suffering is is just not aline item.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Uh and it has to do with keepingpeople less and you know,
certain people growing more inpower and control.
I mean, I see that so much withwith what's going on there.
And how did policies post-1996and post-9-11 change what
(23:34):
actually happens on the groundat the border?
SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
Well, though those were very interesting times
because all of a sudden, youknow, when our twin towers came
down, we were being invaded.
Well, the your first thought isto protect your borders, to
protect your sovereignty.
Right.
And that's one of the things,and we'll get into that later.
What happened here in 2023 wasabsolutely appalling.
But at that time, we militarizedthe border.
(23:57):
All of a sudden, our BorderPatrol became the largest police
force in the entire UnitedStates.
And um, and so we we unleash thefull force of our police and
military on people looking for abetter life.
The fact of the matter is, four4.3 million 18-wheeler trucks
(24:19):
cross our border every year.
There are some smugglers thatare human mules, but most of the
drugs coming through arevehicular.
300 million cars a year crossthe border.
That's where your drugs, it'snot some guy carrying them.
But unfortunately, we unleashedthe the power of this police
(24:40):
force onto poor people trying toget a better life.
And um the the the results are abit disastrous, as you can
imagine.
SPEAKER_00 (24:50):
Yeah, you just described the devil's highway.
It is the busiest border in theworld.
SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
It's the busiest and and it's the most dangerous land
border in the world.
It has both of thosedistinctions.
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
And you live pretty close to there.
SPEAKER_02 (25:06):
Yes.
In fact, part of our programdown there is what I call the
Halconus, the spotter, theFalcons.
And we walk the migrant trailson the American side, and we
look for human remains becauseto me, I have a close family.
And if my brother said, Hey, I'mgoing El Norte, you know, and I
(25:27):
don't hear from him for sixmonths, eight months, I can't
find him, it would drive mecrazy.
And the fact of the matter is,in the last 30 years, 65,000
people have died on Americansoil trying to get a better
life.
Unfortunately, the desert heatand the animals and everything,
we only were able to recover13,000.
(25:50):
That means 53,000 bodies justdisintegrated, and nobody's ever
gonna know.
No mother, no father, no, no uhperson in the same church or in
the village.
We don't, you don't understand,or most people don't, the ripple
effect of losing one life,especially in such a horrific
way.
I've spent a lot of my life inthe desert.
(26:12):
Trust me, that is about theworst way you can die that there
is.
SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
Yeah, I mean, I sat looking at those pages for a
very long time and reading yourwords about what they go
through.
Yes.
Uh, and what the smugglerspromise is, you know, they're
promise it's a lie.
And the staging towns I foundvery interesting, preparing
(26:39):
those who are getting ready totravel and what they offer them.
Could you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02 (26:46):
Yes, that's an entire economy because you've
got hundreds of thousands ofpeople coming up looking for a
better life.
And so towns like Altar Sonora,which is about 60 kilometers
from the border, when the peoplecome up on the La Bestia, they
call the train La Bestia, andthey can actually get on top of
it right north of Guatemala.
(27:07):
And it's an extremely dangerousride, but that's how a lot of
them make their way up to theborder.
Then they get to the border,then they have to have a guide
because the smugglers controlthe border.
You can't, as an individual,cross.
Um uh you can, but boy, if youget caught, I promise you, you
don't want to go down that road.
(27:29):
So that's why when I got in in2009, that story of mine, I was
absolutely petrified.
I was afraid we had stumbledacross some smugglers.
And um, but that's what they go,what you had just said.
They're promise, the people thatsign them up, all they get paid
when they sign them up.
And the crossing, if you canimagine, when I first started
(27:50):
down there, it was about$150 toget across the border.
Now it ranges anywhere from10,000 to 20,000 per person to
get across the line.
And um uh the so the recruiterswill tell them, oh, you know,
it's uh yeah, it's about a fouror five hour walk.
You're not gonna have anyproblem.
(28:11):
These people are from Chiap, butthey're from jungles, they're
from Honduras, they don't knowwhat a desert is.
And I'm telling you something,the Devil's Highway wasn't named
that way by mistake.
It is a highway to hell.
And that's where most of thesepeople are forced because of the
funnel effect.
That when we passed the law, Ithink it was also in '94, that
(28:31):
we would fence off the easiestaccess routes and we'd let the
desert be a deterrent to theothers.
Well, all it did, it wasn't adeterrent.
It just funneled people overinto these dangerous places.
And that's what's happeningright now.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny that they thought
that they were preparing themwith this little small
camouflaged backpack with shoecoverings, so people couldn't
track where they were walking,and just a little bit of water,
uh, not enough to sustainanybody, really.
SPEAKER_02 (29:09):
It's a gallon jug, a black plastic jug, so it can't
be seen.
It's made in China.
And you know what, Ann?
They only walk at night.
I have come across people thatlook like teddy bears because
they have so many choya cactusstuck in them, they can't hardly
they I don't know how they doit.
At night, it's it's impossible.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
I looked up the cactus and um I saw pictures of
just them stuck to their skinlike you show like Velcro.
Yes.
And oh my gosh.
I mean, I don't even I mean,their their bodies are covered
in these things and they can'tsee because it is nighttime,
like what you said.
SPEAKER_01 (29:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
And they just keep going because that's the only
hope that they have.
And then there's rattlesnakesand bears and so many other
things that I mean, it'samazing, I think, that anybody
would get out alive.
SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
Uh it's true.
And Anna, this is a difficultsubject for me to talk about.
I talk about it in our missingmigrant museum because I think
people need to know.
But when I go to places likeAltar and I go into the
pharmacy, the pharmacia, and Iask, what is the number one
selling item in your store?
And you would think it would bean electrolyte drink, you would
(30:29):
think it would be band-aids, youbeen gay.
No, it's short-term birthcontrol.
Because 80%, this is a UNfigure, 80% of the females who
attempt that are going to getraped.
Can you even imagine that we asa species are allowing that to
take place?
It's happening right now whileyou and I are talking on the
(30:50):
internet.
SPEAKER_00 (30:51):
I mean, that is just so sad.
I I read that number in yourbook, and I couldn't believe how
high it is in that the women goon this journey, knowing that
that could happen.
And they're willing to just takethat birth control pill in order
to get to the other side.
I mean, the trauma that you arewitnessing, you must carry this,
(31:14):
like you just said.
I mean, it's really hard for youto even talk about what you're
carrying, I think, is um is sodeep.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Yes, and I've thought about that a lot because
it does.
I have to decompress when I comeback to Scottsdale because the
disparity is just almost, it'sit's overwhelming.
I almost feel guilty um forliving in my house.
But my saving grace is that youknow, I've got a ton of
volunteer people with me.
This I this is my work, but uhit would none of it would happen
(31:46):
without our volunteers.
And I see firsthand the impactthat we're making.
And it's huge.
That's good.
When you educate a woman, thatthat goes on the those every
generation thereon is going tobe educated.
SPEAKER_03 (32:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (32:02):
And I see they've got jobs, they're doctors.
The beauty of being in businessfor 40 years is we can see what
works and what doesn't.
And let me tell you, education,wow, it changes everything.
And and so the thecounterbalance to the horror and
the suffering is gratitudenumber one.
Thank you, thank you, thank youthat I was born on this side of
(32:23):
a fence.
And knowing that me and myvolunteers are making a
tremendous difference in a in alot of people's lives.
SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
How how do you uh help the people that on this
side that just went through ahorrific trauma?
Because leaving would be a majortrauma.
Going through that journey wouldbe a major trauma.
And now they reach the otherside.
I mean, you did, and I loved thestory.
It was difficult, the story ofJose.
(32:56):
Um could you talk about that?
SPEAKER_02 (32:58):
Yes, and I think it's important to say we don't
really, that's not what we do,help the people on once they get
across the border.
That's really not um what RanchoFelice is about.
Rancho Felice is about providingopportunity so people can live
with dignity in their homecountry, not here.
But uh Jose's story was socompelling to me.
(33:19):
I would I take our volunteergroups, and a lot of them are
high school uh kids becausethey're they're they're still
impressionable.
And I'll take them to thedeportation uh shelters and have
them hear these storiesfirsthand.
And Jose's, as you as you Ithink he was out there for eight
days or something.
Interestingly enough, I do keepin touch with him.
(33:41):
He's in Chihuahua, he can't getback across.
He has a wife of 22 years, helived in New York for 22 years.
He has a wife, he has a stepson,and he's got an eight-year-old
daughter who he hasn't seen nowin almost a year.
Uh, they do keep in touch bytelephone and by internet.
He's trying, I you know, I tellhim, don't, because if you get
(34:05):
caught this time, you're gonnago into federal penitentiary.
But how do you tell a man to notsee his daughter?
So what I've been incommunication with both sides,
and um we have offered to we areour uh dormitory complex, we
have rooms where we'll get hisuh family out, and then he can
come up from Chihuahua becausesee he he won't have to cross
(34:27):
the line.
So he could see his family, hishis family, his wife, and two
children are American citizens,so they can go into Mexico.
And so what I what I'm workingon is staging a reunion there in
Agua Prieta where the family canspend four or five days
together.
Um but I have a feeling thefinal chapter of that story is
gonna be Jose in in prisonbecause um he's doesn't have his
(34:51):
odds now of crossingsuccessfully are very slim.
But his drive to see hisdaughter and his wife and his
son, um, that almost overpowerseverything.
So it's it's just it's anuntenable situation.
It's a situation that futuregenerations are gonna look back.
You know, and like we look atthe Martin Luther King days, and
there were white water fountainsand black water fountains.
(35:14):
What were those people thinking?
You had separated families?
You could what were you youdidn't have a path for him?
What were you thinking?
History's not gonna judge uswell right now.
SPEAKER_00 (35:25):
Yeah.
I mean, and that's so d sad.
I mean, if I remember right, heneeded to get to his dad before
he passed away.
And yes, you know, that cost himeverything.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
Yes.
But he wasn't Mexico, theMexican people are so
family-oriented.
There's no way he could allowhis father to pass away without
saying one last goodbye.
Just he wouldn't he didn't carewhat the cost was, he could not
do that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, that really comes clearin in your book, um, the love
and the passion that they allhave for their families.
You uh quote Bill Clinton in thebook.
We are a nation of immigrants,but we are also a nation of
laws.
How do we balance compassion andsovereignty?
How can we dangle the Americandream and then slam doors?
(36:16):
And and how can both truths beuh true at the same time?
SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
Yeah, and they can't.
You know, it's just I'm notgonna get into politics.
I'm gonna tell you in 2021, itwas called La Invitation.
You could talk to any of themcome across.
They got the invitation to comedeclare asylum, and they did by
the thousands.
In fact, 13 million crossed intothe United States of America
(36:41):
illegally.
And I was right in the middle ofit, right?
SmackDab in the middle.
Craziest thing I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_00 (36:48):
You had no idea what you would come across.
No, and and you actually, Ithink, are the one that revealed
it.
SPEAKER_02 (36:58):
My brother Troy and I, it was the oddest thing
because we were hiking themigrant trails and we were down
there and we found this almostbrand new backpack.
We find backpacks all the time.
And we we we we looked throughit, which is always kind of
strange.
You feel kind of like a voyeurbecause you've got these items
that these people have broughtso far for their new life.
(37:18):
I mean, it's hard, hard to lookat.
But this was a brand new one,and there were this like origami
folded thick paper.
And I opened them up, and I'llbe darned if they weren't Arabic
prayers, since Adam translated,and they were praying to Allah
for safe passage, so on and soforth.
We saw that, put it in the backof the truck, drove to the
(37:39):
border, and all of a sudden wesaw people, usually they're
going north.
These people, and they were theywere um Nigerian, I believe.
They were walking along theborder, going with it, and they
were as happy as they can be.
And I was looking at them,they're waving at me.
(37:59):
I've never seen like it becausethey typically run the second
they see, and they're going,We're in America, we're in
America.
And I said, Yeah, you're inAmerica, all right.
And and we got up and there wasa crowd.
There had to be 2,000 of themfrom Senegal.
And I talked to these people.
I felt a little bit exposedbecause had they wanted to turn
(38:22):
against me and my brother, wewouldn't have had a chance.
There were so many of them.
But they were coming up, shakingour hands, wanting to hug us.
We're in America, we're inAmerica.
Yeah, you're in America, allright.
And then we could see where thebollards had been cut, the
smugglers cut the uh the fence,and they were just pouring
through by the literalthousands.
(38:43):
And again, I I'm this is whatI've saw with my own eyes.
I've got photographs of it inthe book.
Um, I'm not saying right, wrong.
Well, I'm just not, I don't wantto get hung up on a political
position because this this isn'tthis isn't about left or right.
This is about how we treat ourfellow human beings.
Yeah, right.
It's about invited them in.
(39:04):
They came, they went through theDarien Gap at a tremendous risk,
the women at risk, and we getthem up here, and then we say,
Oh, we've changed our minds.
Now you're gonna be deportedback.
Shame on us.
Good gosh.
I don't care what your politicalaffiliation is, that's wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (39:24):
Right.
Yeah, I mean, it would have beenso confusing to them.
SPEAKER_02 (39:29):
Their whole lives.
These are their lives.
This isn't something fun theydid on the weekend.
They sold everything.
Going through that Darien Gap, Iknow that country down there.
That's the most dangerous thing.
They're exploited every timethey turn around because the
poor always are.
It's a human thing, I suppose.
But and then to get up here, dowhat they were invited to do,
(39:51):
and the vast majority of mytalk, they weren't they weren't
running for fear of this orthat.
They wanted a better life.
Unfortunately, that doesn't.
Qualify for asylum.
Poverty doesn't, because like wesaid earlier, you know, four
billion people live in dire ppoverty.
The United States just can'ttake care of everybody.
SPEAKER_00 (40:14):
So what does qualify?
SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
You know, it's it's fear uh for gender, it's fear
for religious beliefs, it's it'sfear that your life is in
danger.
If your life is in danger andyou can prove that, then you're
eligible for uh asylum.
Interestingly, Ann, I've gotprobably 300 passports from all
over the world because as soonas they get across the border,
(40:39):
they throw their passports away.
They don't want to be identifiedand they throw their money.
I got money from all over theworld, you know, not a lot, but
coins and bills, but all thesepassports, because if they could
be identified, then it can beproven that perhaps they weren't
at risk.
It's this is a highlycoordinated thing through social
media.
Every single one of them Italked to knew exactly where to
(41:02):
cross.
They knew exactly where to turnright, they knew exactly what to
say when they saw Border Patrol.
This was all choreographed andcoordinated on social media.
And it I will I will bethrilled.
Someday we will find out who wasbehind that.
Uh I don't even want tospeculate or even speculate why.
(41:22):
There's several theories, right?
Improving a voter base, thingslike that.
I don't know.
I don't know all of those I saw.
SPEAKER_00 (41:29):
Well, because it was it was hidden.
Right.
People didn't even know it washappening.
SPEAKER_02 (41:34):
No, and and here's the weird thing.
You're right.
I would go to the Border Patrol,I go, dude, aren't you gonna do
something?
No, we've been told to standdown.
And what they would do, theywould take them to a processing
center.
Was the processing center on themain highway?
No, it was tucked back about amile down in a valley.
You couldn't see it.
Everything had chain link withcanvas.
(41:56):
So nobody uh and the publiccould see what was going on.
Then they put them in unmarkedbuses.
This is really important.
Unmarked buses, bus them up toTucson, bus them to Phoenix.
I followed one of the buses andit went to the An Ott School, an
old school that the governmenthad bought.
And again, it had canvas allaround it, and it was loaded
(42:18):
with uh illegal immigrants whowould they were then put on
planes and flew them to uh NewYork, to Chicago.
They flew them all all over theplace.
But and I tried to, I, I, I, Itried to get in, they wouldn't
let me in.
And I said, well, what's what'sgoing on?
So then I came back and I said,you know, I'm the the founder of
the Rancho Felice CharitableFoundation and I'd like to
(42:40):
volunteer uh at the facility.
Well, then they did let me in,and I got to see what it was
about.
And it it was just a stagingstation.
I mean, but somebody hadcoordinated that, and why
they're hiding it from me as thetaxpayer who's funding it, um,
I'd be interested in knowingwhy.
And I know why, because whatthey were doing was illegal.
SPEAKER_00 (43:01):
Your your book is that there's just so much trauma
there that you just talkedabout.
It but there's also hope.
And one of the things that Ijust love about your program is
that it's about solution, real,measurable, replicable
solutions.
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
In 1987, you and your brother again, um, Troy,
left Scottsdale for aThanksgiving road trip, and you
took a wrong turn and you endedup in Agua Prieta.
Explain what you saw when youfirst arrived, when you're
you're first finding out abouthow these people are living.
SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Yes, well, thank you, because that we've intended
to go to Nogales.
I had traveled in Mexico, I knewthe poverty down there.
Uh, to some degree, I knew aboutit.
I hadn't delved into it.
We did to my brother's a funnyguy.
He telling, I missed the turn.
We ended up in Aguapier andsaid, this is an important
thing.
Spirit or God, or whatever youwant to call it, reveals itself
(44:04):
to those with a higher purpose.
I believe that.
I'm not a religious guy at all,but I have seen it over and over
and over.
And it wasn't a mistake that Iended up on a dirt road inside
of Aguaprian saw.
My Spanish is terrible, but Icould make out orphanatario.
And here's a 23-year-old girltaking care of eight children,
(44:26):
cooking tamales over a burningtire, no indoor plumbing, uh, no
heat.
And I had I had been at theSun's game, you know, two nights
before in a Coliseum in Phoenix.
I'm going, how can how can thisbe going on on the same planet?
And it was so close to four-hourdrive from my home.
(44:49):
And uh, and then and there Isaid, you know, I I have an
innate sense of just socialjustice.
This just isn't right.
It's just not right.
And so um my brother and I wentback and we got uh and I I I
made a a vow at that point.
Well, I'll do this as long asit's fun.
I've got a mantra, and that ishe who dies having had the most
(45:10):
fun wins.
I I think that's what life isabout.
So we went to Phelps Dodge andwe got them to open the haunted
hospital in Jerome, and we had aHalloween party that beat all
Halloween parties.
We raised$15,000 and went downand funded indoor plumbing.
And what what struck me then wasyou can make such a huge
(45:30):
difference in people's liveswith relatively small amounts of
money.
Fifteen thousand dollars.
All of a sudden, these kids cantake a shower.
They can they can eat foodcooked in an oven, not over a
burning tire.
It's not a lot of money, but itmakes a tremendous difference.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
Yeah, they had no electricity, no running water.
SPEAKER_02 (45:54):
God bless her.
You know, I was workingattractive, gal, and I thought,
you know, she's not worriedabout what party, what bar she's
gonna go to next.
She has devoted her life tocollecting these abandoned
little souls and seeing thatthey had food at night and
seeing they were safe.
It was remarkable.
Uh it made what I do look likenothing.
(46:15):
I mean, that's commitment there.
That's a 24-7 job she had.
SPEAKER_00 (46:20):
Well, yeah, but you saw a need and you acted on it.
You went from just dropping foodand clothes off to an entire
foundation.
So talk about seeing a need andknowing that you are the one to
make a difference and puttingyour heart into action.
Because that's what you did.
SPEAKER_02 (46:40):
Because there are two real kinds of poverty.
The easy one is the the kidswith not enough to eat, no roof
overhead.
But the the other one that'sjust as as debilitating in my
mind is that poverty of purpose,poverty of meaning.
So, what I saw when I would comedown, we would bring clothes and
we'd hand the clothes out andstuff.
But the the groups, thevolunteer groups, kept getting
(47:02):
larger and larger and larger.
And I'm thinking, well, what'sgoing on?
Well, they're obviously gettingsomething out of this.
So what we did then with thistwo-pronged approach, and as we
came up with this idea ofenlightened self-interest, it's
it's in your best interest.
It's paradoxical.
The the more you give, the moreyou receive.
(47:23):
You know, I've heard thesestatements before, but when
you're in service work, I'mjust, I could go give you
example after example afterexample how there is a divine
guidance.
When you're in service toothers, your life opens up.
Uh, one of the things that Isay, and it's kind of crude, and
(47:43):
I don't mean to be crude, butdon't volunteer.
So you've got a wonderful groupof people.
It's a vetting process.
People who volunteer who have alarger vision of the world and
their responsibility to it,they're fun to hang out with.
And we've traveled all over theworld together and we've got
difference together.
And the most important thing tome, Ann, is when I'm laying on
(48:05):
my deathbed, I can say, you knowwhat?
I'm leaving this place a littlebetter than I found it.
SPEAKER_00 (48:12):
A lot better, I would say.
And you'd have traveled all overthe world.
You even uh were took a vow fromthe Dalai Lama to remove
suffering.
And you you took that seriouslyand that enlightened
self-interest that you talkabout.
You you teach volunteers thatthe surest way to abundance is
(48:36):
through service, and you arehonest that humans are greedy,
you can call them what you want,like you just did, but they're
greedy, and but we need toharness that and use it
differently.
Yes.
How has that philosophy changedboth the people that you serve
and the volunteers who show up?
SPEAKER_02 (48:58):
Well, let me give a real quick example.
Um, when I first started this,I'd I'd get my friends, I'd say,
hey, we found this place downthere and they don't have
anything, and we're gonna get agood, we're gonna go volunteer.
Volunteer is such a weak word.
I don't even like it, I don'tbelieve in altruism, number one.
I volunteer, we're gonna govolunteer.
Uh, it's been portrayed as asacrifice.
(49:20):
I always think of a group ofguys sitting around watching a
football game, drinking beer,and the game's over, and one
says, Well, what do you want todo now?
The guy says, Well, I got anidea.
Let's go sacrifice.
Who's gonna do that?
Nobody.
So, what I did, I said, Okay,let's let's change this.
We're not volunteers, we'reguardian warriors, okay?
I'd love to we got on our HarleyDavidson's, and I got to go
(49:44):
around and say, We're gonna do aride down to Mexico, we're
guardian warriors, here's yourbadge, we're gonna kick some
poverty.
All of a sudden, everybody andtheir brother wanted to come.
And we've had huge, huge Harleyrides down.
And I would always pick thealpha.
There's always one big alphamale typically, and I'd get him,
and his name was Chuck.
(50:04):
And Chuck, come here.
And I gave him a gift, and Isaid, This would be they were
always around Christmas time.
I said, See that little girlthere?
I want you to go give her thatperson.
All right.
So he'd go over there, he'd getdown on knee and look at the
little girl, and he'd come backto me and he'd be crying.
I get choked up, think about it.
He said, Gil, she was my littlegirl.
(50:27):
We I we can't leave her here.
We we've got to do something.
I said, I know, I know, Chuck,and we will, and we will.
And his life was foreverchanged.
This big macho tough guy saw hisown daughter in that little
girl.
And so my contention is why Iwant to get everybody down
there.
Mine's a little bit differentapproach.
(50:48):
Mine is not love thy neighbor asthyself.
That's two-party, that's atwo-party system.
I don't believe in that.
Mine is I love the me I see inyou.
When we can get people tobelieve, I love the me I see in
you, because this last weekendwhen I was handing out those
foods, I saw myself.
(51:10):
I saw myself and every humanbeing.
They have the same wants, thesame dreams, they look at the
same moon.
We're all in this together.
And the most selfish thing I cando is make sure your journey is
easier.
And uh, and that's worked.
And I think once we can do that,once we can turn that greed from
(51:32):
um not enough to go around lackinto an abundance, there's more
than enough.
Here's some of mine, becausewhenever I do that, I get more
back.
When we get that chance,flipping consciousness, when
it's in our own best interest,that's when things are gonna
change.
If we continue to present it asa sacrifice, you know, six
(51:54):
thousand years of sermonshaven't done any good.
SPEAKER_00 (51:57):
And you don't believe in welfare.
SPEAKER_02 (52:00):
You say welfare.
Welfare is debilitating.
SPEAKER_00 (52:03):
Yeah, you well, yeah, I was just gonna say that
it robs people of dignity andyou believe in reciprocal
giving.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (52:11):
And what I love about this so much, both sides
contribute.
Absolutely.
Both sides are empowered.
unknown (52:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (52:18):
And I have always said that if we could take the
Bible and, you know, unravel theBible and just put it out there,
um, that's what it would looklike.
What you're talking about.
Yeah.
I really believe that that washow the Bible intended this and
what we and how we are supposedto live.
(52:39):
Can you walk us through how theworthy neighbors rent-to-owned
housing model works for atypical family?
SPEAKER_02 (52:46):
Yes.
Well, again, um, the the borderproblem is not a problem on the
border, and it's not a problemwith uh with a border patrol.
The problem is the host country.
That's the problem.
And if we let people comethrough the border, we're taking
the pressure off of what needsto change.
This country needs to change.
(53:07):
Mexico needs to change, yeah,Venezuela needs to change.
So what we do is createsituations where people can live
with dignity.
And we did that with our vecinosdinos sinfranteras subdivision.
That means worthy neighborswithout borders.
It's two and a half acres, 42duplex-style homes.
(53:29):
I get wonderful volunteers.
Ron Crater, JBZ architects, landplanner, did this wonderful land
plan where the houses are inhorseshoe shape.
So you have to look at yourneighbor.
You can't run hide in yourgarage like I do here and have a
neighbor uh to my left who Ihaven't met and been here for
nine years.
(53:50):
You have to look at yourneighbor.
We're we're common, we'recommon-minded people.
And um, so to do that, we had toraise$26,000 per home.
And then we built a 10,000square foot uh child care center
and a 5,000 square foot learningcenter.
But we had Anne a thousandapplications, over a thousand
(54:11):
applications for every singlehome.
And that was the hardest.
They'd been vetted, they'd beenthrough like six interviews by
the time Jim Armstrong and I gotto them.
We built a home four familieswith these adorable children,
and you had to pick one.
Oh, it just ripped your heart.
SPEAKER_00 (54:30):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (54:31):
Had to do that 42 times.
SPEAKER_00 (54:33):
Oh no.
SPEAKER_02 (54:33):
And um, inherent in qualifying for a home, your
children are eligible for a$33,000 a year uh private school
bilingual school scholarship.
So a lot like with the Zagastefamily, there's three kids,
that's$9,000.
That's more than the family'sincome that they would get in
(54:54):
scholarships.
Why Ann, I'm here to tell you.
One of his daughters is now adoctor, practicing doctor.
The other one is um an attorneyin Ensenada, and the third, the
young man, believe it or not,works for Rolls-Royce in Berlin,
Germany.
These are kids that were born inthe shack because education.
(55:17):
They got education.
They are gonna raise theirchildren educated.
It's just boom, it just goes onfrom there.
So that's why our the educationand housing to me kind of go
hand in hand.
But these people, they're proudof their homes.
Uh Reyes Zagassi says, you knowwhat, Gil, I found my American
dream right here in Mexicobecause it's a beautiful home
(55:38):
and they've their CC and Rs.
He can't paint it purple, hecan't put a uh a nail salon on
the third floor, and they foughtall that stuff for a long time,
but then they realize theirvalue is there.
Out of 42 homes, we havetransferred deeds to 33.
So 33 families now own their ownhomes.
We've transferred about amillion and a half in equity.
(56:00):
They have become firm members ofthe Mexican middle class.
It's just wonderful.
And it should be replicated alldown the border.
SPEAKER_00 (56:08):
It should be why it's not.
It really should be.
I uh this is a model programthat really it should be the
program.
It should be the program.
Because when you think about it,I mean, they uh contributed to
their own self, really.
And and they just had to, it wasuh interest-free housing,
(56:30):
correct?
SPEAKER_02 (56:30):
And they had to you bring up a really good point
though, Ann.
It's not welfare, just what yousaid.
They had to make payments, butthey were principal-only
payments.
They had to do 200 hours ofcommunity service work every
year.
Most important thing, theparents, if they didn't have a
high school scholarship, had togo get a GED equivalent.
(56:50):
And lastly, if their kid droppedout of school before he got or
she got their high schooldiploma, they were in default on
their lease and could beevicted.
That's how important education.
Now, would we have evicted any?
Probably not, but they don'tknow that.
I want them to know they need tokeep those kids in school.
SPEAKER_00 (57:13):
But what you asked them, they all did.
And see, it's that's how badlythey really want to contribute
to their own success.
They don't want handouts.
So I found that very umimportant.
And you are very clear that itis harder for girls.
Gil, this first hour has beenincredible.
You took us right into thedesert with you.
(57:35):
You helped us feel the dust, thefear, the urgency, and the
humanity behind every story thatyou share.
And what I keep coming back tois a simple truth that you carry
so well.
When we stop long enough to seeeach other, really see each
other.
Compassion has no borders.
You have given us so much to sitwith, the bravery, the
(57:56):
heartbreak, the humor, themoments that changed you
forever.
And honestly, we are justgetting started because there is
so much more beneath the surfaceof this work that you do.
So we're going to pause here forpart one, take a breath, think
about the impact that one lifecan make, and meet us right back
here next week.
We talk about the mission behindRancho Felice, the lives saved,
(58:18):
the lives transformed, and theuncomfortable questions that
challenge all of us to rethinkwhat responsibility and
compassion look like and a worldthat feels divided.
You do not want to miss it.
Join us next week for part twowith Gil Gillumwater.
We will see you next time.
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