October 8, 2025 • 59 mins
What if the love you learned was never love at all—but performance, peacekeeping, and fear dressed up as care? Ann sits down with Denise Bard to tell the truth about growing up inside conditional love, the survival roles that helped them get through, and the slow, stubborn work of building a love that heals instead of hurts. This is a tender, unsparing, and ultimately hopeful conversation about worthiness, boundaries, and the courage to stop disappearing.
We trace the childhood blueprints that formed our early ideas of public perfection masking private harm, attention mistaken for affection, and approval fused to identity. Denise shares how a shelter caseworker embodied unconditional love and rewired what was possible. Ann reflects on seeking safety in performance, hiding family trauma from partners, and the moment parenting shifted everything: presence over fear, repair over reactivity, and an actual “no matter what” for her kids. Together we explore how to break generational cycles, end contact with unsafe relatives, and create a home where truth doesn’t cost you belonging.
You’ll hear practical ways to rebuild self-worth affirmations that actually land, journaling that tracks progress, and boundaries that protect love rather than punish it. We talk about putting down burdens that were never ours, refusing to apologize for someone else’s harm, and letting “wanted” become part of your identity. If you’ve ever confused peace with people-pleasing or chemistry with chaos, this conversation offers language, tools, and a pledge to love differently: to be seen, to stay whole, and to choose connection without conditions.
If this resonates, tap follow, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help others find Real Talk with Tina and Anne. What’s one belief about love you’re ready to release?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne, and today we'rediving into the one of the most
vulnerable and powerful chaptersof my book, Loving Differently.
Now, it's not out yet.
I am currently working on it,but I shared it with Denise
Bard, and we agreed that thischapter was episode worthy.
So here we are.
(00:21):
And so here is Denise Bard, oneof my favorite people.
This is this is kind of aconversation that I wish that
our younger selves would havehad and would have heard as we
were still trying to figure outwhat love really looks like.
Because if love was absent,conditional, or confusing in
(00:43):
childhood, we often build ouradult dreams on shaky ground.
And like me, maybe you carriedstories about love that was
never really ours to begin with.
So let's talk about lovingdifferently.
What does it really mean to lovedifferently, to unlearn, to
redefine, to rebuild love in away that actually heals instead
(01:08):
of hurts?
There is not one way to love,but I do know that there's ways
not to love.
What are our childhood images oflove?
Denise, do you have uh memoriesof your childhood and when you
were little?
What did you think were thedefinitions of love?
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Well, it's interesting because I first
learned love at 14 from acaseworker at a um a shelter for
runaway abuse and homelessleaves who taught me what
unconditional love was.
So until then, I looked at loveas conditional.
So it was more of um, am Itaking a side?
(01:54):
Because you know, growing up inthe um trauma of uh of abuse, it
was whose side are you taking?
If you take my side, I'm goingto love you.
If you take my side, I'm goingto love you.
So it really kind of came downto um what I can do for someone
else and you know where whatwhere my allegiance lied.
(02:16):
It was never to, you know, thatunconditional, like I love you
no matter what love.
SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's hard because youcan't please both.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
There was no pleasing both.
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
No, your definition or or perception of love is not
really truly love, but youdidn't know any better.
You thought that this was just anorm thing, but I don't even
know that you understand, like,I don't know that you put love
in a definition.
Do you know what I mean?
I don't know if it was just aword.
So it was just a word, not afeeling, not a doing.
(02:52):
Okay.
Just literally a word.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Okay, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:57):
Yeah.
I mean, that's reallyinteresting.
I I don't know if I reallyunderstood what love meant
either, because there was somuch dysfunction in my family.
But where I got definitions oflove for me, where I witnessed
it was on TV a lot of times.
Um, my my favorite shows hadfamilies with dads or moms that
(03:18):
I connected with, and I wouldtake those parents with me to
school and really everywhere.
And I loved, and I'm probablydating myself right now, but I
loved ADEs enough.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
I uh I watched that too.
I like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
Yeah.
I mean, I loved Dick Van Pattenand but Betty Buckley as
parents, and even though she waslike the stepmom that came in,
and you know, because the momhad passed away, she was just
such a great mom.
And I saw Betty Buckley actuallyin person on stage probably a
couple years ago now, and thatparental feeling came back just
(03:56):
watching her up there on stage.
It was just so cool to see herin person, and I also would
learn from my parents' friends.
I was a watcher of people, and Iwould watch everyone, and I
would see family dynamics andand I would copy them.
And I I actually still do thatat times, but I watch the adults
(04:21):
to see what adult love lookedlike because I didn't have a
dad, and the only way that Iwitnessed healthy adult love was
for me to observe families.
What did you think adult lovelooked like as a kid?
You know, like some kids can beat home and they watch their
parents and and their lovelanguage could be, I'm gonna
(04:41):
bring you flowers.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
No, I I think I was similar to you, where you looked
um elsewhere, where it was ofcourse television.
I mean, I, you know, my thoughtsand dreams were, you know, of
these people who I wished weremy parents because of um how
they how they acted towardstheir children.
(05:12):
And I don't know that Iunderstood that as a love
language, but it made me feelgood.
Um, and as far as like looked atagain was probably um TV.
Yeah, those family episodeswhere, yeah, like um you said
eight is enough.
And I think of um, oh my gosh, Iforget the name of it.
Um Kirk Cameron.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
Kirk Cameron was the name of the grilling pains.
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
That's it.
And I loved that.
And and why dynamics.
And you know, the thing aboutthat is there were so many
different dynamics where itwasn't perfect.
And I loved any shows that Icould find that had that
imperfection in them because tome it was like I didn't feel so
um out of place.
I know that kind of soundsweird.
(05:57):
It's like because you know, youtried to decide if you were good
enough, but when you found thoseimperfections in some of those
TV shows, it almost made it thatyou can envision yourself in it.
Do you know?
Yeah.
Because I was a kid who got introuble.
So am I gonna be loved?
So when I found a show on TVwhere the kid gets in trouble
and yet they're still loved,yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
Oh, see, that's so good.
Yes, it's not conditional.
I mean, that's just such abeautiful thing.
I mean, some people would saythat love was yelling.
Oh, yeah, some would sayhitting, some would say absent.
Yeah, how do you take theseexamples into adulthood and
(06:40):
love, truly love your kids andpartner?
Because I mean, it would be sohard.
So many of us associate lovewith the wrong things, and I
mean, let's talk about this.
So many of us associate lovewith earning or pleasing because
love was conditional growing up.
And if we were quiet, helpful,impressive, agreeable, you know,
(07:03):
we were okay, we would be seen.
But if we weren't, love could beintentionally withheld.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yes, and that's that's exactly what um with what
I had, you know.
And you're right, you kind oflike you look at all these
people, and you like for me,honestly, I was kind of scared
to grow up and and know what arelationship was for love
because I didn't see it.
I saw it maybe with friends, Isaw it with their parents.
(07:31):
It was like the outside sources.
I remember being scared, liketrying to figure out am I gonna
know how to love?
Am I gonna know what, you know,if I'm gonna meet somebody and
I'm gonna know, but I don't knowabout you.
But I when my husband and I metand everything, and I I just
knew it was him.
I did a lot of um, I did a lotof apologizing.
(07:54):
And he would always say, Stopapologizing.
Because I was so used to they'regonna walk away, you know.
As a kid, you know, you had tobe this, this, this, if you
wanted to be loved.
And I didn't know how to take itin genuinely, like for somebody
who unconditionally cared foryou.
But I would say this um thecounselor that I had as a kid,
(08:18):
uh, I was 14, that was the firsttime I think that I had some
connection with love.
And I didn't know what it was atfirst, and so it was so when you
feel love for the first time,even though you think you know
it from the shows that you watchand all these things, when you
actually feel it, it's it's it'shard to put into words, and I
(08:43):
think for each of us might bedifferent of like that feeling
of what it is, you know, you'veor whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
I um have you know, I think it's hard for a child to
define love or know what itreally is, and I guess I I think
some adults do too.
I mean, it is a feeling, and itis absolutely something that we
internally feel, and then it'sactually something in the mind.
Sometimes we just we just knowthat we love somebody and it and
(09:12):
it isn't attached to a feeling,but we just genuinely know that
we love somebody.
Yeah, you know, I I think thatthat right word gets thrown
around so much that peoplereally water it down and and
they really don't know what itmeans.
You know, my mom was aperfectionist when it came to
appearance, and it it was thetimes, I think, because you
(09:33):
know, it was that sit upstraight, tuck your shirt in,
appear perfect in public, andappearance was everything back
then, right?
And it's not how it's not how Ilove you in private, it's how I
love you in public.
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (09:49):
Matters.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
And you know that that's really that's a big deal
for me to say that out loudbecause I've said that in
different ways, but I've neverreally said it like that before.
And uh, yeah, it's not how Ilove you at home.
It's I'm gonna love you outthere in public.
(10:13):
And you know what's interestingis how come they were different?
How come they were different?
And that's where I think peoplecould pick up as a child.
And maybe I picked up as a childsaying, wait a second, you don't
yell at me like that in front ofother people.
You don't talk down to me likethat in front of you, don't hit
(10:33):
me the way that you do in frontof other people when we're
homeless like this.
When we're out I loved going tomy aunt's house in New Jersey
because my cousin and I wouldall the abuse was gone, you
know.
Yeah, and I could just be a kidand enjoy.
And my mom was preoccupied withher um aunt or whoever she was,
(10:58):
you know, in the family, andthey just would talk and talk,
and my cousin and I could justbe, and I could just be, and it
was just really great to just beand not have to worry about
those things.
But yeah, I mean, one way inpublic, one way in private.
SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
Yeah, it's funny.
It's funny that you said thatbecause now I'm thinking about
it, and you're right.
If I we were at big familygatherings, it was so different.
It was like a happiness.
There wasn't arguing, therewasn't the like um their
dynamic.
I always said it's like afacade, you know what I mean?
They they portrayed the perfectperson out in public, but you
(11:39):
never knew what was behindclosed doors.
Like it wasn't in my grandmotherwould always say, it's nobody
else's business, it's nobodyelse's business, but she she was
in in public the perfect person.
So that's really interesting.
But yeah, like I think about it,when I would go to, I think my
fondest memories, because yeah,they're crowded by a lot of um
(12:01):
abuse and dysfunction and stuffwithin the house, was those um
holidays where you know, I comefrom an Italian family.
So every holiday it was goingover to a great aunt's house and
everybody came and it was justlike loud, but in a good way,
loud.
Um, like you laughter, just justnot what it was at home.
(12:27):
It was just that feeling of, andI did probably that's what I
looked forward to, because everyholidays or anything, there was
always arguments, there wasalways fights.
Somebody fought, you know, andagain, there comes my sides.
Whose side do you take?
Um, yeah, your family's house.
It was a whole different, um,yeah, because you're right, they
(12:49):
always wanted to show adifferent side of themselves on
the outside.
Um, yeah, yeah.
And so that that is hard to todecide uh, you know what love
is.
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
I I used to think that being lovable meant being
perfect, yeah.
That if I just did enough, if mymom was happy, then I was okay.
If I said the right things, if Idid the right things, and it was
such a temporary thing, youknow, because then the next
moment I'd be trying to do itagain to make her happy or feel
(13:24):
okay again.
So it was 100% based onapproval.
Love and um approval, I think,were so enmeshed with me.
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
Yeah, I think that that's that's what we all kind
of uh look at too, is thatapproval from somebody.
And I think growing up, eveninto an adult, um, you know, it
was trying to to to be thatperfect person, like even as
you're as an adult, and I waslooking at these people from the
(13:54):
adults in my past that I wantedso to see me and hear me.
And it was like, you know, ifthey look at me now, what would
they think of me different?
Like, would they it's theapproval, and I don't know if I
would I would say uh that'slove, you know what I mean?
But at the same time, you know,I don't think when you know what
(14:17):
true love is or or that you yourperception of everything and how
you intake things becomes reallyclouded, and even as an adult, I
think we're still trying tofigure out, at least I am, to
really truly understand who isit that I honestly can say I
love because there's adifference between I care about
someone and I love someone, andso you know, I know the people
(14:44):
that I absolutely love, andthere are the people that I care
about, and you wonder, are you,you know, I wonder, is that
enough?
Like, should I be like lovingthem too?
Or is it okay just to care forsomebody?
Not it doesn't mean I'm on I'mnot a lovable person, it doesn't
mean that I don't know how tolove.
(15:05):
It's just, I don't know, I'mlearning that, or I'm I should
say I'm recognizing more andmore that I have two separate
categories, whether that benormal or just something
associated with me.
Um, it is something that I thinkas adults who grew up without
that, I think it's something wejust really kind of are working
(15:26):
our way through.
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
Yeah.
And uh real love should not feellike a performance, you know.
I mean, I think that that's whatI did most of my childhood was
perform.
I think that that's one of thereasons I think for kids that
are raised in a dysfunctionalhome that it's hard to figure
out who you are because you'retrying so hard to be what
(15:48):
everybody else wants you to be.
So, you know, and the more thatwe do, the the more we do, the
more we feel loved.
That is very toxic.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
And I mean, have you ever loved by doing like
shrinking yourself or stayingsilent just to keep peace?
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Oh, absolutely, especially in a household where
you know there was so muchfighting, there was so much
abuse.
It was like how yeah, you just Imean, and that's the thing, find
like wanting to be thepeacekeeper in such an abusive
situation.
And as kids, I think that wedon't even realize we're doing
(16:31):
it or what we're doing it, it'sjust kind of second nature.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
We're like, okay, that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
You know, can we just yeah, I I absolutely think
stayed silent and played thegame of I love you, even though
I didn't, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (16:47):
I mean, I learned really young to be the invisible
one in the room.
And my sister was given away tothe system, which you know, I've
mentioned that in otherepisodes.
And I was afraid as an adoptedperson that if I didn't conform,
if I didn't do what my momwanted, that you know, I I don't
(17:10):
know what if I really went therein my head, but I was always
afraid and I wanted her to behappy and I wanted to to um not
make her mad at me.
That was it.
I didn't want her to get mad atme, and I was beat on a regular
basis, and I've never sharedthat on the podcast before.
Now, my mom beat my sister andshe beat myself.
(17:31):
Do what you were told, or you'regonna be hit.
Be good, and you are loved.
Now, you should still make goodchoices, but I mean it shouldn't
be based on how somebody's goingto treat you because you know we
all made bad choices as a kid,and it shouldn't be based on,
okay, I'll be good, I'll begood, you know.
(17:53):
No, okay, I'll be good.
I promise.
Just love me.
You know, it it shouldn't bebait, it shouldn't be about
that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
It's funny.
I was I was I guess in middleschool, I became kind of a bad
kid in elementary school.
I was a good kid.
I was that kid who was tryingto, I thought that if I was good
enough, somebody would come andrescue me.
And so I was always going to bewhat other people wanted me to
be, or at least what I perceivedthat they wanted me to be, in
(18:22):
order to be saved.
So I would really go out of myway and observe and say, okay,
that kid looks like a good kid.
Let me be like that.
And that was all throughelementary school.
Now, when I got to middleschool, I kind of, you know, was
bad.
Um, but I have to tell you, Ihad gotten into a couple
physical fights with people, andI recall not getting in trouble
(18:45):
for that.
It was more of, well, did youdominate?
Did you get to, you know what Imean?
It was like if you were, youknow, and it was you got praise.
And praise obviously is is, Ithink, some kind of um way we
think people love us as kids.
Um praising you, you're doingsomething you're doing something
(19:07):
well, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Similar to you, there was a lot of abuse, and on
a daily basis, I had a lot of umpsychological and verbal where
nobody's gonna love you, youknow, and and I would hear that
a lot.
It's like, well, I used to hearI don't love you.
I heard that and I heard I hateyou.
And so you really have a hardtime.
(19:31):
If somebody says I don't loveyou, how do you know, you know,
what's gonna make them love you?
Because it can be I'm doing thesame thing day after day, but
one of those days I'm gonnacatch her off guard and that's
gonna rub her the wrong way, andshe's gonna hate me and not love
me, you know.
And here is my other thing too.
(19:51):
I don't know that I seeked lovefrom my mother.
I didn't seek that, and I didn'tseek love from my grandma.
I I wanted it from the outsideworld that for me was a safe
world.
That's like the craziest thingto say.
(20:13):
But um, so and as far as likenot being bad outside of my
home, but being bad in my home,as a bad kid doing something
that I, you know, that you and Iwould say, Oh, that's a that's
bad.
That kid shouldn't have donethat, that kid's bad.
Um, in a in a nice like, we'relike, oh, that's a bad kid.
(20:33):
That that kid's not doingwhatever.
I could be doing something thatmy kids would do, and I don't
feel that that's bad enough forme to not love them.
Like my daughter used to saythis a lot.
She's 21 now, but she wentthrough that stage, and it was
like I wanted her to always knowthat I loved her.
So I would always go, you knowwhat?
(20:55):
I will always love you, butright now I do not like you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:59):
I love you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Now it's it's one of those where you know that you're
not gonna be, at least, youknow, as an adult.
Now I look back, I'm not alwaysgonna be a good kid.
I'm gonna make mistakes, likeyou've said.
Um, but I should still be loved,even though I made the mistake.
SPEAKER_02 (21:16):
I find it really interesting that you said that
you did not seek out your mom'slove.
No, I oh my gosh, I really neverthought about that, but I know
that, and I'll tell you why.
And that you might have donethis and what I did.
I mean, when you see somebody isunsafe, the child doesn't back
(21:38):
up first.
The child doesn't cut love offfirst.
No, and and so I really thinkthat the adults in your life and
and mine and whoever else hasfelt that way as a child, that
the adults around you wereunsafe and you knew it.
And you knew you were gonna gethurt, and so then eventually
(22:00):
it's the hardening that we do,you know, and then you do
eventually not seek them outbecause you're no, you know,
you're they're not the personthat you can trust to reach out
for love.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Right, right, and that is it, because with and
when I say about not seeking herlove is I knew that anytime I
was with her, there wasn't itwasn't a good time.
There wasn't a good time, and itwas that fear of always being
with somebody, like you said,like you don't know, you know,
you know you're not safe.
(22:34):
So I didn't want, I felt likewhat I saw in the very um
horrible part of the of theabuse that I, you know,
experienced, which was thesexual abuse and things like
that.
I did not want that if that waslove.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
Oh right, and so that puts a whole other dynamic.
SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
Like that's probably why I didn't seek love from her.
Even my grandmother, who didn'tsexually abuse me but still
abuse me, I there was aroughness there.
And I don't know that I I didn'twant love, but I didn't want to
get like we don't want to getabused.
I wasn't looking further love, Iwas looking for the calmness in
the storm.
SPEAKER_02 (23:17):
Okay.
Being an adopted person, and Ihave two moms, you know.
I mean, I had my adoptive momand I had my birth mom, and I
don't really talk about her onthe show very often.
But when you started saying thatyou were told that you were
hated, they said those things toyou.
(23:37):
I mean, I just that's just sohorrific that you went through
that.
I my uh biological mom didn'tsay those words to me, but in
many different ways she couldhave.
She just would, you know, it waslike a punch in the gut.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
And I knew that she didn't want me.
So I mean, that's another layer,right?
When your mom doesn't want you,and you know, that's pretty
difficult.
So I really I I I wanted tounlearn all of this, and I've
done a lot of my own therapyover the years, you know.
(24:19):
I mean I I've become a prettysuccess, pretty I'm the word
isn't successful, it'sproductive, I guess.
I'm not the same person that Iwas when I was hurting that
deeply, and I don't heat hurtthat deeply at all now.
So I've really come a long way.
(24:39):
And so it's talking about howcan we unlearn this?
And when love comes withconditions, we internalize a
dangerous message.
If I'm not useful, I'm notvaluable.
If I don't do what I'm told, I'mbad.
If I speak against, I need tobe, I need to be quiet.
So this is a question are weshowing up in relationships as
(25:02):
our full selves or real selves,or just the parts of us that we
think is lovable with theparticular, with that particular
person?
I know for me that I was very, Iguess you could say, a very
promiscuous gal um growing up inmy high school, college, all the
(25:24):
way up until I ended up gettingmarried at 21.
And I always had a date, always,and I was always on that dance
floor three nights a week, fromthe time I was 15, actually till
I was 30, but up until I gotmarried, I from 15 to 21,
everybody was game.
(25:45):
I mean, you know, it was I am Iwould find somebody every single
night and I would flirt and youknow whatever would happen would
happen.
SPEAKER_00 (25:55):
Do you think it was that you were looking for love
and hoping that that was a wayto find it?
SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
I think I thought that was love.
I think I felt loved by gettingsomebody's attention in that
way, and then of course, alcoholwas involved.
And you know, I just I thoughtit was fun, it was my way of
escape.
I don't know if I really lookedat it as that they loved me
(26:22):
because I mean there was thatescape, there was that
somebody's paying attention tome in my real life at home, or
you know, I'm not getting paidattention to.
I felt important for that littlebit of time.
Somebody's looking at me andthey're thinking, hey, I'm
(26:42):
something.
And uh yeah, I mean, I didn'thate it.
Oh no, I don't know how to saythat, but uh yeah, I mean, I
didn't not like it.
So so, but I mean, that is howwe can get into a bad pattern of
trying to find love in the wrongplaces, really.
(27:05):
And eventually I did find aserious boyfriend, and I really
did think that I was gonna marryhim.
And I think I really, you know,we showed up for each other.
We really showed up for eachother, and I didn't have to fake
it, I didn't have to pretend atall.
We just really were with eachother.
Do you show up to relationshipsas your full self?
SPEAKER_00 (27:28):
Not in the beginning, no, because I was
hiding so much of my family.
I was so afraid that if they sawall of me, they would see that
abuse.
Even with my husband, and we'vebeen married almost 25 years.
I think he saw a lot of it inthe beginning.
But I mean, for the first halfof our marriage, I didn't
(27:50):
really, I don't want to say Iwasn't myself.
I was myself because Iabsolutely loved him.
And I will say I was promiscuousas well.
Um it was the time, it waswhatever.
Um, but you know, with myhusband too, and and with a lot
of them, I think my familyinterrupted that.
And so my family was theinterruption to any kind of a
(28:14):
relationship that would be.
Um, I I dated someone who wouldfind out right away that my
family was abusive and hecouldn't stay.
He just couldn't.
It was too much because hedidn't want to see how I was.
And because of that, when I metmy husband, which was right
after him, I kind of shelteredinto place where I protected
(28:36):
that side of I didn't want himto know about my past.
Um, and I I just wanted him toknow me for who I am, but I'm
still learning who I am still.
Like I said, in the beginning ofthe relationship, you were
trying to people please.
I didn't want him to leavebecause I really did care about
him.
I loved him.
(28:56):
It was like that feeling that Ijust, you know, he was my
person, you know.
And so I um I guess like now asI'm I'm going through therapy
and everything, I am allowingmyself to be me.
I'm still the me he knows, butthat now it's it's I'm even
more, you know what I mean?
(29:16):
I'm even more because I thinkum, you know, it's just you're
able to be more authenticallyyourself and to have that
authentic self love someone atthe same time and have them love
you.
And it's a scary thing whenyou've gone through that kind of
abuse, you are still learningabout love to be able to allow
(29:41):
yourself that vulnerability thatthey won't leave you.
And I think that's one of thethings with love is that that's
something that you want is nomatter how broken you are, that
you can still be loved.
And so I can definitely say now.
I'm I'm starting.
And again, I've been married for25 years.
(30:04):
Um, and it's been going well upeven with not showing, at least
when I say showing myself, it'sallowing that vulnerable side of
my background to come out and beokay because that background
doesn't define the love I havetoday.
That that that backgrounddoesn't define what I what I the
love I have for my husband.
SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
I'm cautious.
I think um, you know, I seepeople as outsiders and it takes
a while to let somebody in.
I'm friendly, but most of thetime I keep people at a distance
and I gradually test and see ifI can let them in.
And I think childhood pain, orreally any pain, um, any kind of
(30:45):
a destructive relationship, nomatter how old you are, can keep
people at a distance.
So, but I instantly keep peopleat a distance, and I gradually
see if you're one of thosepeople that I can let into my
circle.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
I was opposite.
I wanted everybody in the circlebecause that's how I thought
acceptance was.
That's how I thought maybe lovewas and everything.
But now at an older age, I amlike you.
I'm I'm I was always guarded,but I wanted my circle to be so
big because that's how I thoughtlove and acceptance was.
(31:21):
But now I can say truly that Iam very guarded.
And I just had, and we've talkedabout it.
I just had two experiences thatI let myself open up and truly
feel love for this other person,not in a relationship wise, but
uh maybe people in a parentallevel.
And um, I got the wind knockedout of me, and that happens, and
(31:45):
then all of a sudden you put upyour wall, and you're like, hell
no, I'm not gonna let anybodycome that close to me.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Yeah, what changed for me with all of that was
being a mom myself, and thatlove surpasses all love here on
earth, and there is nothing butparenting a child, and I really
think that that is where I foundtrue love.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
Oh, absolutely, you know, as we were growing up and
we, you know, talked earlierabout envisioning these these TV
families, things like that.
I wanted to be able to givethat.
I didn't know I could, butthat's I want them to feel the
way I looked at people and felt.
(32:31):
And so um, yeah, becoming mom,oh my gosh, that was it was it's
life-changing, especially forsomeone like us.
It's like, you know, you neverknew you could love somebody so
much until you love your child.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
There's nothing like holding your child, yeah, yeah.
I I don't think that there's anygreater feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
No, and you know, we're both parents of children
or child with autism, and Ithink that brings a whole other
dynamic of love to, you know, itdoes knowing, you know, and and
having and because they teach ustoo.
SPEAKER_02 (33:08):
Oh, absolutely, all of that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
So I feel like I've learned, I think I learned more
and more about how to, you know,unconditionally love someone
just from the way that they arewith everyone, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
Yeah, sometimes maybe, you know, we just want to
be, we just want to love forjust being, and we have to give
ourselves permission to take upspace.
We wake up in the morning andsay to ourselves, you know, I am
lovable because lovable becauseI just exist, because I just am.
I am worthy just because my, youknow, my friend, who is one of
(33:46):
my bestest friends in the wholeworld.
Um, I just absolutely love her.
Um, shard, uh Miss Love Freely,one of my closest friends, she
does this thing as a singer,she's in many, many groups, and
she gets up on stage and shedoes all these positive
affirmations, and she haseveryone in the crowd say these
(34:08):
words after her, and they'rejust so empowering.
And she's done it with my kids,and it's pretty interesting to
watch her do it with them, andshe's done it with me, and
she'll just look right at youand she said, Look, say, I am
loved, I am beautiful, and Iwant you to say it after me.
And do you know that you knowit's hard?
(34:31):
I've tried to do that with mynine-year-old, and he can't say
those things, and I don't knowif it's because he really
doesn't feel those things, it'salmost embarrassing for him to
say those things at this age,but you know, when I really
internalize it when I'm sayingit, it's hard.
(34:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's not somethingthat's easy to replace negative
self-talk with positive.
Now, I I have really grown onthat, but talking inwardly to
yourself, like I love you toyourself, you are beautiful.
Um, you deserve only goodthings, you don't allow any
(35:13):
toxic people in your life, youknow, you don't deserve any
toxic people in your life, thosetypes of things.
I think it's it's hard, but it'sneeded.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
I am an overthinker.
And so as an overthinker, Ialways had a problem.
You know, people would say, Oh,you're doing a great job.
Look at how much you've grown.
Look at how especially you know,I was coming through therapies
and stuff.
You you've come so far, you'vedone this, you are incredible,
like you know, all these things.
(35:42):
And I it was hard to take that,you know, it was really kind of
hard to like really trulybelieve that because you you're
so used to people just, and Isay used to when I was younger,
people would just say something,but not truly mean it.
It was just words that werebeing thrown out there.
Um, but to have people liketruly mean what they say to you.
(36:06):
I I have to say it it's probablybeen within the last month,
really, that I I started.
So I listened to Mel Robbins.
I absolutely love Mel Robins.
A lot of her her thing, um, thisnew thing I'm uh is about
keeping silent, right?
And and taking things in andkeeping silent.
(36:28):
And as I did that, I started tolook within me and seeing that,
you know, um I am enough.
And so um the I had the samething when people would say, oh,
you know, tell me your likerepeat after me.
And I've you know always feltuncomfortable.
So now actually what I'vestarted to do because I've just
(36:50):
been listening to her thing, um,I've written it down.
I'm kind of pulling over mynotebook and like I have things
written down, like, you know, Iam making progress.
I'll write that down.
I am making progress.
And when I say I'm makingprogress, all of a sudden I see
the good in me and I see all thethings that, you know, I am
(37:11):
worthy of.
Like I am worthy of love.
Like I am worthy of this.
I am a lovable.
Kind of different when just Idon't know.
I don't know if there's aspecific time in life that it
clicks.
Um, because I think you and Ihave talked and and we'll say
you're so far ahead of me as faras where you've come to peace
(37:31):
and and understanding differentthings, not the same, whatever.
Um, and I'm like, oh, I want tobe just like you someday because
I'm getting, you know.
But yeah, I think I've juststarted to get into the area of
my life where I'm like, man,yeah, I'm like really, I'm I'm
yeah, I am, you know what Imean?
(37:52):
It's the I am.
And you have to love yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
Yes, self-love.
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:58):
And and being able to internalize that, even if
people, even if people havegiven you many mixed messages,
yeah, really treated youawfully, made you feel like
you're just the least importantperson in the room.
You still have to try to figureit out how to self-love
eventually as you you get out ofthat, and not allow those
(38:19):
people's definitions to beinside of you because right,
correct.
They are wrong.
I mean, every single person isimportant, you matter.
Yeah, and you know, for those ofus who are peacekeepers, for us
not to confuse peacekeeping withlove, because I think that we
can do that.
If everyone's happy, then I'mloved.
(38:42):
I mean, that's that's just sowrong.
If no one's mad, then I'm safe.
If I sacrifice my needs, maybethey'll choose me.
And yeah, right.
And one of my biggest ones forme that got me into the most
abuse before I was healed frommy past trauma is I will do what
(39:04):
you say, just like me.
I will shut down, I will uhwhatever you want, I'll I'll be
this ragdoll for you, uh, andsay uh whatever you want because
fear is taking over my body andI can no longer stand up for
myself.
Just like me, though.
I just want you to like me.
SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
I don't know that I said I would do what you say or
whatever.
Again, not that you like me.
If we're talking about myyounger years, I I'll go back to
I wasn't seeking love from mygrandmother or my mother, but I
didn't want to be the ragdoll,and I knew that.
I knew that so instead ofanything else, I just kept
(39:44):
quiet.
But you're right, fear.
I mean, fear control, it's aprison, you know.
Fear is a prison because itencompasses so many different
things, so many differentlayers, and each of us has a
different, I don't know, shiftseverything.
SPEAKER_02 (40:02):
I was the reason why I believe I got that way.
Well, for one thing, beingautistic, but another reason was
because um fear overtook me.
I was held captive by my past.
And and the the fear thatconsumed me, took me into my 20s
were my worst time of my life.
(40:25):
I allowed it to happen becauseof who I was, because I was
being held captive by my past.
And I couldn't figure out a wayout, I couldn't find my voice,
and it really did shape me.
I did find a way out though.
Um, one of the things that savedme from that was I met my kids
(40:45):
and I adopted my two older ones,and I learned as time went on to
parent with presence instead ofto parent with fear.
And the day that I got them, andI was so afraid to be that
parent because you know, ofwhere I'd come from, and here I
am with my um, I had a girl thatused to live with us, and we
(41:06):
were really close.
Well, not live with us, she usedto stay with us all the time and
uh weekends and spend the nightall the time.
We were very, very close.
And at this time when I got mygirls, they she was about a
teenager age, and oh my gosh, Iwas she could see the panic in
my eyes the first night that Ihad the kids.
I mean, I had no kids, and now Ihave two kids.
(41:28):
Um and she saw the panic in myeyes, and she pulled me into the
bathroom, and she was just like,You got this, you got this.
Yeah, and I will never forgetthat.
And I realized that I had achoice and I was going to break
that generational cycle.
And I think that that was partof the fear.
You know, what was your firstsign that you knew you were
(41:50):
breaking the your mom'spatterns?
SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
The patterns in my family were a very cycle of
abuse, so they were alreadythere even before I came in.
So when I had my kids, I wasfortunate enough not to live in
the state that they were becausemy husband was military and we
moved.
So it was just really my husbandand myself, and you know, my
daughter first, my son.
And I think because I hadfriends around me that didn't
(42:17):
know my past, not at all.
But I think once I was startingto watch how they were with
their children and I was tryingto do the same at home, I
noticed that I was still livingon pins and needles anytime my
family would call me.
Like I was, you know, I hatedwhen the phone rang because I
lived this separate world.
I always kept my world separate,even growing up, because like my
(42:39):
school world and my home world,right?
SPEAKER_02 (42:42):
Oh, me too.
SPEAKER_00 (42:43):
I don't want to say that I was living in this
storybook with my kids, youknow, because I I wanted the
depictions of what I had when Iwas growing up, what I wanted,
and I didn't understand this.
As I'm telling you this rightnow, I didn't understand until
the last five years, to beperfectly honest, or maybe even
(43:04):
a little bit like eight, tenyears.
I wanted what I imagined I hadalways wanted when I was a kid.
And as I'm not living in thesame state as them and we're
just living separately, um, Idid different things with my
kids.
It wasn't there wasn't thatextended family around me.
When you ask me when did I knowthat I broke the cycle, is when
(43:28):
I ended contact with my motherin 2014.
Because even though I wasdifferent as a parent than she
was, than my grandmother was,even up until that time, it
wasn't until 2014 when I endedcontact with them, because
everybody, you know, left mebecause I ended that contact,
(43:52):
um, was my first sign ofchanging the pattern because I
no longer allowed that cycle tocontinue.
So it was me, you know, cuttingthem off and saying, nope, this
is what we're gonna build rightnow.
This is our family, this is whatwe're going to do.
But my fear of turning into myfamily was constant.
(44:15):
And again, I'm gonna go up untillike even today, I question some
things, you know, here andthere, because I never want to
be like, but it's weird becauseyeah, I did know that I was
being different, but it wasn'tuntil really 2014 that that
break from my family allowed meto just be the parent that I was
(44:36):
going to be, not the influenceof what I was going to be.
SPEAKER_02 (44:41):
There were lots of things that I did that I knew I
needed to be different.
First of all, I I wanted my thechoices that affected our family
to be a family choice.
No, okay.
And I did not want to be theperson making decisions for my
kids when I knew that it couldaffect them deeply.
(45:03):
And so um I would talk to them,I kept open communication, I
made sure that we um knew whereeach other stood with different
things, and um I wanted them tofeel the same way with me, you
know, and I wanted them to beable to come to me with
anything.
I was afraid of my mom.
I didn't feel like I could go toher for anything, and I never
(45:26):
wanted to throw uh this is hardto say, I never wanted to throw
a family member away.
And I knew that I was differentwhen I chose and I have worked
very hard to um love my kids,even though things uh are hard.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
For whatever reason, my mom made the choices that she
did, and I'll never ever everunderstand why she did what she
did with my sister and things,but I knew that no matter what,
with my kids, that I would lovethem no matter what.
Because that's what we all want.
(46:06):
I just wanted everything to bedifferent.
Healing feels so unnaturalbecause it's not what we're used
to, but when you begin to walkdown the aisle of healing, it
eventually becomes a habit andit becomes who we are.
SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
Um, I have to go back to this with the um the the
love.
As I talked about my Michelle,she was my caseworker and and
counselor when I was 14 at anonprofit shelter in Trenton,
New Jersey called Anchor House.
I learned from her that I coulddo no wrong and be thrown away.
(46:40):
Like she's still in my lifesince I was 14.
I have done so many stupidthings that she could have
walked out of my life.
Yeah, she could have easilywalked out, but she never has,
even on the times where I'mlike, oh my god, why didn't you
run?
And she's like, mm-mm, because Ilove you.
See, and that is what I wantedmy kids to feel.
SPEAKER_02 (47:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
And so um I was learning, and as I was learning,
I was giving.
So as I continue to learn whatlove is or how really true love
is, I'm learning it, but I'malso giving it at the same time.
Like I said before with mydaughter, she with you know,
those teenage years, and and Iwould say, I love you, but I
(47:26):
don't like you right now.
And I made sure of it, like,listen, I love you no matter
what.
Something that I did when my mydaughter came out um as being
part of the LGBTQ community, itwas okay, I love you no matter
what.
When I tell you you are my childand I love you no matter what,
(47:50):
that means that there is nocondition to who you have to be
in order for me to love you.
I want you to be you, it becomeswho we are.
Is again, I feel like I'm stilllearning through this process.
As I've had Michelle, you know,teach me this unconditional
love, as I've reconnected withteachers that I've had that were
(48:13):
really influential in my lifewhere I saw, like my one
teacher, there was a simplemoment in eighth grade where um
I had been in the shelter andsomething happened at school.
So I was, you know, goingthrough really the difficult
times of abuse at home and I gotaway from it.
And a simple, simple sentencekind of helped like reshape
things as far as like I'velearned to bring with me.
(48:35):
And I feel like this part of thewhole love language was she's
like she introduced me tosomeone as this is my Denise.
It was just a sentence, right?
Was it a literal thing from her?
No, however, that sentencefilled me with I was wanted, and
I think that being wanted helpsyou to become loved or helps you
(49:00):
to know that you are lovedbecause you know, loved and
being wanted are are you know,they're in fine, and so um that
is something that I want my kidsto continue to feel.
SPEAKER_02 (49:14):
Yeah, I want my kids to know that they're wanted,
yeah, yeah, really important tome.
SPEAKER_00 (49:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:19):
Now reversing that again to you know, another one
big one is to put down whatisn't ours because I think that
we can carry, and I know that Icarry things that were not mine
forever.
And I I felt I was the one thatdid the sins of my mom, and I
and I really did blame myselffor what happened with my
(49:43):
sister.
I don't know why, because Iguess I didn't speak up when she
was walking out the door, but Iwas told not to.
So I don't know.
I mean, I know, but I've ownedthat forever, and I felt like it
was my fault when my dad died,and I don't know why.
I don't know why I feelresponsible to I don't know why
I felt responsible to make mymom feel happy all the time.
(50:05):
And I had to put those thingsdown, and I still once in a
while I will pick them back upagain, but my mind really does
know that it's not my fault.
I have to still, I'm like Isaid, I have to convince myself
at times.
Do you have things that youcarry or or have carried that
are not yours to carry?
SPEAKER_00 (50:25):
I think the generational abuse, I keep, you
know, it's a hard thing to putinto words what I, you know,
what you carry.
I think I'm the same way where Itook responsibility for
everything.
Well, it's my fault that thathappened.
You know, when you areconditioned, my mother all the
time would say, it's your faultthat I don't have.
(50:47):
It's your fault that I don'tthis.
She was 16 when she had me.
And so when we talk about likethe not wanting, I've heard
that.
I never wanted you, I neverthis, I never that.
Um, and then you know, as shewas, you know, a teenager
growing up, it was my fault thatshe didn't have these things
(51:10):
because I was the the addedweight to things, if that makes
sense.
And so I think that that is it'smy therapist will will tell me
sometimes too, she's like, youknow, that's not your fault for
that.
And it's hard because that'swhat you were conditioned to
feel like, especially when theytell you it's your fault
(51:33):
because, and even though we knowthat that's not the truth, like
we know we're adults, we'relike, you know, we're uh smart
individuals and and you know,logical that we know it's not
our fault.
But I think when you'reconditioned with it so much that
you do take the blame for it,you do think, well, their misery
(51:54):
or the reason their life didn'tturn out like my life is because
you know, that I did something.
And I I did spend a lot of mychildhood questioning everything
because I was told it was myfault.
I believed everything, the abusewas my fault.
You you know, if you weren'tbad, you wouldn't be hit.
Well, if you weren't this, thiswouldn't happen to you.
(52:16):
So I thought that all the thingsthat happened to me were because
I did something wrong.
It in fact it wasn't, it was thethings that had happened to her.
SPEAKER_02 (52:26):
Yeah, I don't know why we do that.
I've always done, and I I don'tthink it comes from they really
blamed us, you know.
And when somebody's and you'reyoung, you really internalize
what they're saying.
And so then when you're oldenough to even believe, like I'm
not the one that did that, theydid that.
Why am I owning it?
(52:46):
Right.
I I just think it's just soingrained in who we are because
they said it so many times, orthey really did make you feel
like that.
And so it's really hard toshake.
I have no trouble shaking the,you know, I I know I've done
something wrong, I own it, Iwork through it, I talk to the
person I've wronged, orwhatever, you know.
(53:08):
I mean, but the things that Icarry that were somebody else's,
I don't think that we can reallywork through that process, that
same process.
We just can't work through itthe way that we can when it is
legit something that we did.
Yeah, so it's just somethingthat still continues to try to
live with us, it would livewithin us when and we can't
(53:29):
shake it the same way.
We can't because it's not it, wecan't go through that process.
There's no way you can you Ican't go to anybody and
apologize and try to workthrough with them with something
that I didn't even do, right?
SPEAKER_00 (53:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (53:43):
So why do I keep owning it?
SPEAKER_00 (53:44):
And why are um, you know, and that's the thing.
Like, I'm not gonna apologizefor the abuse you you gave me.
I'm not gonna apologize for whyyou didn't love me.
I'm not gonna be sorry aboutthat.
I didn't do anything for you notto, and then you know, because
mine was generational, there's alot of people who would say,
(54:08):
Well, I had this happen, and I'mI'm just gonna throw him under
the bush.
My my father recently, and youknow, we've reconnected my he
had read my book and he hadsaid, you know, I had a lot to
think about.
I was like, Well, what the heckdoes that mean?
And then we were talking, andhe's like, Well, you, you know,
because I talk about the abuse,I talk about all the things I'd
(54:30):
gone through.
And he was like, Well, can youimagine what it was like for
your mother and what she wentthrough?
Why is that my fault?
Right?
So it was almost as if I'm tofeel sorry for her.
Yeah, and I have why is that my?
I mean, why is it my fault thatshe went through that?
(54:51):
It's not my fault.
I didn't I didn't go throughthat, but I had a lot of guilt
too, I will say.
I was so fortunate to have theteachers that I had in my life
that I learned from, um, that Itook a little bit here and there
from that um, so I'm fortunatethat I have a lot of these
teachers who have that are stillin my life that were in my life
(55:13):
as a teenager going up andwhatever, who saw the other side
of me.
Um, because I had my two sides,I had my school side and my you
know, home side or whatever.
They saw, they didn't see theweight, they didn't see that
dysfunction or that, or that um,you know, the cycle.
SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
I think, and I want to add this, and this is another
thing that I really never talkabout on this podcast.
I think I've met I havementioned it in an episode, but
it's been a really long time, isthat I was a product of rape.
SPEAKER_00 (55:44):
Okay.
So I was told that too.
So yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (55:48):
I I thought so.
And so that's an instant like uma negative feeling about who you
are.
I mean, you in negatively wereconsummated in this really awful
way, and you know, it was anangry, awful thing, and then you
came out of it.
(56:09):
So I don't know, and and it wasused against me.
It was said to me, and I won'tsay who said this to me, but it
was a family member who saidthat my biological mom didn't
want me there.
Um, because after all, I wasjust a rape to her.
SPEAKER_00 (56:24):
I uh yeah, and you know what?
My mother used to just tell thatto me.
She was like, you know what, Ionly have you because I was
raped.
And I remember hearing that forthe very first time when I was
four.
When I was four, and I didn'tknow what it meant.
I didn't know what it meant, butit was something that stuck with
me because you know, a lot ofpeople go, Oh, how can you
remember that?
Well, I will say this when youwere a child that was um raised
(56:48):
in trauma and abuse, two thingsthat happened to you.
Either you repress everything toprotect yourself, or you're like
me, and you remember thingsalmost down to the detail.
And I never understood what thatmeant until I got obviously a
lot older and understood whatthat was.
Obviously, my father, because Idid connect with him, there's
(57:09):
two different stories.
I don't know whose is true.
I really don't, and I'm not hereto say I know because I wasn't
there, and I'll never tellsomeone that you weren't raped
because I wasn't there, and I'mnot gonna ever shame you or do
that, even to my own mother.
But yeah, I same thing.
It was like you and that takesaway from love too.
(57:30):
You weren't you weren't chosen,you know, and I don't I'm not an
adoptive parent, but in my mind,I wasn't loved from the get-go,
and I think that in the youknow, I it I wasn't built out of
love.
SPEAKER_02 (57:44):
Yeah, well, I mean, lots of kids that they know that
their parents love each other somuch, and they were a product of
their love.
Correct.
I mean, that's a beautifulthing, yeah.
And um, but when you don't havethat, it does really put a
different definition on love.
And I just want to put a pledgeout, you know, I to make a
(58:06):
pledge to love differently, todo whatever it takes, to be
different than today was tough.
We talked about a lot of reallytough things and we laid some
heavy things down.
I just don't want to pick themback up.
If you're if you're listeningand realizing that maybe that
you have been carrying love uhin all the wrong ways or in the
(58:30):
hard ways, and you don't reallyknow the definition of love.
Please know that you're notalone.
You can rewrite what love means,you can rebuild it, and you
deserve a version of love thatdoesn't ask you to disappear to
receive it, that you don't haveto be someone else's puppet.
Thank you, Denise, for beinghere.
(58:52):
I really appreciate you beinghere and talking about this.
I I was, you know, I was rightaway, I was like, Well, uh, I
know the perfect person to haveon for this topic.
So awesome.
Yeah, so thank you so much forbeing on.
And thank you to our listenersfor showing up for yourself
today.
Because if you listen to this,you showed up for yourself.
(59:14):
And remember that, as we alwayssay, that there is purpose in
the pain and there is hope inthe journey.
Subscribe to Real Talk with Tinaand Ann.
And until next time, keep lovingdifferently, where the best kind
of love allows you to finally beseen.
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne, and today we'rediving into the one of the most
vulnerable and powerful chaptersof my book, Loving Differently.
Now, it's not out yet.
I am currently working on it,but I shared it with Denise
Bard, and we agreed that thischapter was episode worthy.
So here we are.
(00:21):
And so here is Denise Bard, oneof my favorite people.
This is this is kind of aconversation that I wish that
our younger selves would havehad and would have heard as we
were still trying to figure outwhat love really looks like.
Because if love was absent,conditional, or confusing in
(00:43):
childhood, we often build ouradult dreams on shaky ground.
And like me, maybe you carriedstories about love that was
never really ours to begin with.
So let's talk about lovingdifferently.
What does it really mean to lovedifferently, to unlearn, to
redefine, to rebuild love in away that actually heals instead
(01:08):
of hurts?
There is not one way to love,but I do know that there's ways
not to love.
What are our childhood images oflove?
Denise, do you have uh memoriesof your childhood and when you
were little?
What did you think were thedefinitions of love?
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Well, it's interesting because I first
learned love at 14 from acaseworker at a um a shelter for
runaway abuse and homelessleaves who taught me what
unconditional love was.
So until then, I looked at loveas conditional.
So it was more of um, am Itaking a side?
(01:54):
Because you know, growing up inthe um trauma of uh of abuse, it
was whose side are you taking?
If you take my side, I'm goingto love you.
If you take my side, I'm goingto love you.
So it really kind of came downto um what I can do for someone
else and you know where whatwhere my allegiance lied.
(02:16):
It was never to, you know, thatunconditional, like I love you
no matter what love.
SPEAKER_02 (02:23):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's hard because youcan't please both.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
There was no pleasing both.
SPEAKER_00 (02:30):
No, your definition or or perception of love is not
really truly love, but youdidn't know any better.
You thought that this was just anorm thing, but I don't even
know that you understand, like,I don't know that you put love
in a definition.
Do you know what I mean?
I don't know if it was just aword.
So it was just a word, not afeeling, not a doing.
(02:52):
Okay.
Just literally a word.
SPEAKER_02 (02:55):
Okay, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (02:57):
Yeah.
I mean, that's reallyinteresting.
I I don't know if I reallyunderstood what love meant
either, because there was somuch dysfunction in my family.
But where I got definitions oflove for me, where I witnessed
it was on TV a lot of times.
Um, my my favorite shows hadfamilies with dads or moms that
(03:18):
I connected with, and I wouldtake those parents with me to
school and really everywhere.
And I loved, and I'm probablydating myself right now, but I
loved ADEs enough.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
I uh I watched that too.
I like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
Yeah.
I mean, I loved Dick Van Pattenand but Betty Buckley as
parents, and even though she waslike the stepmom that came in,
and you know, because the momhad passed away, she was just
such a great mom.
And I saw Betty Buckley actuallyin person on stage probably a
couple years ago now, and thatparental feeling came back just
(03:56):
watching her up there on stage.
It was just so cool to see herin person, and I also would
learn from my parents' friends.
I was a watcher of people, and Iwould watch everyone, and I
would see family dynamics andand I would copy them.
And I I actually still do thatat times, but I watch the adults
(04:21):
to see what adult love lookedlike because I didn't have a
dad, and the only way that Iwitnessed healthy adult love was
for me to observe families.
What did you think adult lovelooked like as a kid?
You know, like some kids can beat home and they watch their
parents and and their lovelanguage could be, I'm gonna
(04:41):
bring you flowers.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
No, I I think I was similar to you, where you looked
um elsewhere, where it was ofcourse television.
I mean, I, you know, my thoughtsand dreams were, you know, of
these people who I wished weremy parents because of um how
they how they acted towardstheir children.
(05:12):
And I don't know that Iunderstood that as a love
language, but it made me feelgood.
Um, and as far as like looked atagain was probably um TV.
Yeah, those family episodeswhere, yeah, like um you said
eight is enough.
And I think of um, oh my gosh, Iforget the name of it.
Um Kirk Cameron.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
Kirk Cameron was the name of the grilling pains.
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
That's it.
And I loved that.
And and why dynamics.
And you know, the thing aboutthat is there were so many
different dynamics where itwasn't perfect.
And I loved any shows that Icould find that had that
imperfection in them because tome it was like I didn't feel so
um out of place.
I know that kind of soundsweird.
(05:57):
It's like because you know, youtried to decide if you were good
enough, but when you found thoseimperfections in some of those
TV shows, it almost made it thatyou can envision yourself in it.
Do you know?
Yeah.
Because I was a kid who got introuble.
So am I gonna be loved?
So when I found a show on TVwhere the kid gets in trouble
and yet they're still loved,yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
Oh, see, that's so good.
Yes, it's not conditional.
I mean, that's just such abeautiful thing.
I mean, some people would saythat love was yelling.
Oh, yeah, some would sayhitting, some would say absent.
Yeah, how do you take theseexamples into adulthood and
(06:40):
love, truly love your kids andpartner?
Because I mean, it would be sohard.
So many of us associate lovewith the wrong things, and I
mean, let's talk about this.
So many of us associate lovewith earning or pleasing because
love was conditional growing up.
And if we were quiet, helpful,impressive, agreeable, you know,
(07:03):
we were okay, we would be seen.
But if we weren't, love could beintentionally withheld.
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Yes, and that's that's exactly what um with what
I had, you know.
And you're right, you kind oflike you look at all these
people, and you like for me,honestly, I was kind of scared
to grow up and and know what arelationship was for love
because I didn't see it.
I saw it maybe with friends, Isaw it with their parents.
(07:31):
It was like the outside sources.
I remember being scared, liketrying to figure out am I gonna
know how to love?
Am I gonna know what, you know,if I'm gonna meet somebody and
I'm gonna know, but I don't knowabout you.
But I when my husband and I metand everything, and I I just
knew it was him.
I did a lot of um, I did a lotof apologizing.
(07:54):
And he would always say, Stopapologizing.
Because I was so used to they'regonna walk away, you know.
As a kid, you know, you had tobe this, this, this, if you
wanted to be loved.
And I didn't know how to take itin genuinely, like for somebody
who unconditionally cared foryou.
But I would say this um thecounselor that I had as a kid,
(08:18):
uh, I was 14, that was the firsttime I think that I had some
connection with love.
And I didn't know what it was atfirst, and so it was so when you
feel love for the first time,even though you think you know
it from the shows that you watchand all these things, when you
actually feel it, it's it's it'shard to put into words, and I
(08:43):
think for each of us might bedifferent of like that feeling
of what it is, you know, you'veor whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
I um have you know, I think it's hard for a child to
define love or know what itreally is, and I guess I I think
some adults do too.
I mean, it is a feeling, and itis absolutely something that we
internally feel, and then it'sactually something in the mind.
Sometimes we just we just knowthat we love somebody and it and
(09:12):
it isn't attached to a feeling,but we just genuinely know that
we love somebody.
Yeah, you know, I I think thatthat right word gets thrown
around so much that peoplereally water it down and and
they really don't know what itmeans.
You know, my mom was aperfectionist when it came to
appearance, and it it was thetimes, I think, because you
(09:33):
know, it was that sit upstraight, tuck your shirt in,
appear perfect in public, andappearance was everything back
then, right?
And it's not how it's not how Ilove you in private, it's how I
love you in public.
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (09:49):
Matters.
SPEAKER_00 (09:51):
Wow.
SPEAKER_02 (09:52):
And you know that that's really that's a big deal
for me to say that out loudbecause I've said that in
different ways, but I've neverreally said it like that before.
And uh, yeah, it's not how Ilove you at home.
It's I'm gonna love you outthere in public.
(10:13):
And you know what's interestingis how come they were different?
How come they were different?
And that's where I think peoplecould pick up as a child.
And maybe I picked up as a childsaying, wait a second, you don't
yell at me like that in front ofother people.
You don't talk down to me likethat in front of you, don't hit
(10:33):
me the way that you do in frontof other people when we're
homeless like this.
When we're out I loved going tomy aunt's house in New Jersey
because my cousin and I wouldall the abuse was gone, you
know.
Yeah, and I could just be a kidand enjoy.
And my mom was preoccupied withher um aunt or whoever she was,
(10:58):
you know, in the family, andthey just would talk and talk,
and my cousin and I could justbe, and I could just be, and it
was just really great to just beand not have to worry about
those things.
But yeah, I mean, one way inpublic, one way in private.
SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
Yeah, it's funny.
It's funny that you said thatbecause now I'm thinking about
it, and you're right.
If I we were at big familygatherings, it was so different.
It was like a happiness.
There wasn't arguing, therewasn't the like um their
dynamic.
I always said it's like afacade, you know what I mean?
They they portrayed the perfectperson out in public, but you
(11:39):
never knew what was behindclosed doors.
Like it wasn't in my grandmotherwould always say, it's nobody
else's business, it's nobodyelse's business, but she she was
in in public the perfect person.
So that's really interesting.
But yeah, like I think about it,when I would go to, I think my
fondest memories, because yeah,they're crowded by a lot of um
(12:01):
abuse and dysfunction and stuffwithin the house, was those um
holidays where you know, I comefrom an Italian family.
So every holiday it was goingover to a great aunt's house and
everybody came and it was justlike loud, but in a good way,
loud.
Um, like you laughter, just justnot what it was at home.
(12:27):
It was just that feeling of, andI did probably that's what I
looked forward to, because everyholidays or anything, there was
always arguments, there wasalways fights.
Somebody fought, you know, andagain, there comes my sides.
Whose side do you take?
Um, yeah, your family's house.
It was a whole different, um,yeah, because you're right, they
(12:49):
always wanted to show adifferent side of themselves on
the outside.
Um, yeah, yeah.
And so that that is hard to todecide uh, you know what love
is.
SPEAKER_02 (13:03):
I I used to think that being lovable meant being
perfect, yeah.
That if I just did enough, if mymom was happy, then I was okay.
If I said the right things, if Idid the right things, and it was
such a temporary thing, youknow, because then the next
moment I'd be trying to do itagain to make her happy or feel
(13:24):
okay again.
So it was 100% based onapproval.
Love and um approval, I think,were so enmeshed with me.
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
Yeah, I think that that's that's what we all kind
of uh look at too, is thatapproval from somebody.
And I think growing up, eveninto an adult, um, you know, it
was trying to to to be thatperfect person, like even as
you're as an adult, and I waslooking at these people from the
(13:54):
adults in my past that I wantedso to see me and hear me.
And it was like, you know, ifthey look at me now, what would
they think of me different?
Like, would they it's theapproval, and I don't know if I
would I would say uh that'slove, you know what I mean?
But at the same time, you know,I don't think when you know what
(14:17):
true love is or or that you yourperception of everything and how
you intake things becomes reallyclouded, and even as an adult, I
think we're still trying tofigure out, at least I am, to
really truly understand who isit that I honestly can say I
love because there's adifference between I care about
someone and I love someone, andso you know, I know the people
(14:44):
that I absolutely love, andthere are the people that I care
about, and you wonder, are you,you know, I wonder, is that
enough?
Like, should I be like lovingthem too?
Or is it okay just to care forsomebody?
Not it doesn't mean I'm on I'mnot a lovable person, it doesn't
mean that I don't know how tolove.
(15:05):
It's just, I don't know, I'mlearning that, or I'm I should
say I'm recognizing more andmore that I have two separate
categories, whether that benormal or just something
associated with me.
Um, it is something that I thinkas adults who grew up without
that, I think it's something wejust really kind of are working
(15:26):
our way through.
SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
Yeah.
And uh real love should not feellike a performance, you know.
I mean, I think that that's whatI did most of my childhood was
perform.
I think that that's one of thereasons I think for kids that
are raised in a dysfunctionalhome that it's hard to figure
out who you are because you'retrying so hard to be what
(15:48):
everybody else wants you to be.
So, you know, and the more thatwe do, the the more we do, the
more we feel loved.
That is very toxic.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
And I mean, have you ever loved by doing like
shrinking yourself or stayingsilent just to keep peace?
SPEAKER_00 (16:09):
Oh, absolutely, especially in a household where
you know there was so muchfighting, there was so much
abuse.
It was like how yeah, you just Imean, and that's the thing, find
like wanting to be thepeacekeeper in such an abusive
situation.
And as kids, I think that wedon't even realize we're doing
(16:31):
it or what we're doing it, it'sjust kind of second nature.
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
We're like, okay, that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
You know, can we just yeah, I I absolutely think
stayed silent and played thegame of I love you, even though
I didn't, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (16:47):
I mean, I learned really young to be the invisible
one in the room.
And my sister was given away tothe system, which you know, I've
mentioned that in otherepisodes.
And I was afraid as an adoptedperson that if I didn't conform,
if I didn't do what my momwanted, that you know, I I don't
(17:10):
know what if I really went therein my head, but I was always
afraid and I wanted her to behappy and I wanted to to um not
make her mad at me.
That was it.
I didn't want her to get mad atme, and I was beat on a regular
basis, and I've never sharedthat on the podcast before.
Now, my mom beat my sister andshe beat myself.
(17:31):
Do what you were told, or you'regonna be hit.
Be good, and you are loved.
Now, you should still make goodchoices, but I mean it shouldn't
be based on how somebody's goingto treat you because you know we
all made bad choices as a kid,and it shouldn't be based on,
okay, I'll be good, I'll begood, you know.
(17:53):
No, okay, I'll be good.
I promise.
Just love me.
You know, it it shouldn't bebait, it shouldn't be about
that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
It's funny.
I was I was I guess in middleschool, I became kind of a bad
kid in elementary school.
I was a good kid.
I was that kid who was tryingto, I thought that if I was good
enough, somebody would come andrescue me.
And so I was always going to bewhat other people wanted me to
be, or at least what I perceivedthat they wanted me to be, in
(18:22):
order to be saved.
So I would really go out of myway and observe and say, okay,
that kid looks like a good kid.
Let me be like that.
And that was all throughelementary school.
Now, when I got to middleschool, I kind of, you know, was
bad.
Um, but I have to tell you, Ihad gotten into a couple
physical fights with people, andI recall not getting in trouble
(18:45):
for that.
It was more of, well, did youdominate?
Did you get to, you know what Imean?
It was like if you were, youknow, and it was you got praise.
And praise obviously is is, Ithink, some kind of um way we
think people love us as kids.
Um praising you, you're doingsomething you're doing something
(19:07):
well, right?
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:08):
Similar to you, there was a lot of abuse, and on
a daily basis, I had a lot of umpsychological and verbal where
nobody's gonna love you, youknow, and and I would hear that
a lot.
It's like, well, I used to hearI don't love you.
I heard that and I heard I hateyou.
And so you really have a hardtime.
(19:31):
If somebody says I don't loveyou, how do you know, you know,
what's gonna make them love you?
Because it can be I'm doing thesame thing day after day, but
one of those days I'm gonnacatch her off guard and that's
gonna rub her the wrong way, andshe's gonna hate me and not love
me, you know.
And here is my other thing too.
(19:51):
I don't know that I seeked lovefrom my mother.
I didn't seek that, and I didn'tseek love from my grandma.
I I wanted it from the outsideworld that for me was a safe
world.
That's like the craziest thingto say.
(20:13):
But um, so and as far as likenot being bad outside of my
home, but being bad in my home,as a bad kid doing something
that I, you know, that you and Iwould say, Oh, that's a that's
bad.
That kid shouldn't have donethat, that kid's bad.
Um, in a in a nice like, we'relike, oh, that's a bad kid.
(20:33):
That that kid's not doingwhatever.
I could be doing something thatmy kids would do, and I don't
feel that that's bad enough forme to not love them.
Like my daughter used to saythis a lot.
She's 21 now, but she wentthrough that stage, and it was
like I wanted her to always knowthat I loved her.
So I would always go, you knowwhat?
(20:55):
I will always love you, butright now I do not like you.
SPEAKER_01 (20:59):
I love you.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Now it's it's one of those where you know that you're
not gonna be, at least, youknow, as an adult.
Now I look back, I'm not alwaysgonna be a good kid.
I'm gonna make mistakes, likeyou've said.
Um, but I should still be loved,even though I made the mistake.
SPEAKER_02 (21:16):
I find it really interesting that you said that
you did not seek out your mom'slove.
No, I oh my gosh, I really neverthought about that, but I know
that, and I'll tell you why.
And that you might have donethis and what I did.
I mean, when you see somebody isunsafe, the child doesn't back
(21:38):
up first.
The child doesn't cut love offfirst.
No, and and so I really thinkthat the adults in your life and
and mine and whoever else hasfelt that way as a child, that
the adults around you wereunsafe and you knew it.
And you knew you were gonna gethurt, and so then eventually
(22:00):
it's the hardening that we do,you know, and then you do
eventually not seek them outbecause you're no, you know,
you're they're not the personthat you can trust to reach out
for love.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Right, right, and that is it, because with and
when I say about not seeking herlove is I knew that anytime I
was with her, there wasn't itwasn't a good time.
There wasn't a good time, and itwas that fear of always being
with somebody, like you said,like you don't know, you know,
you know you're not safe.
(22:34):
So I didn't want, I felt likewhat I saw in the very um
horrible part of the of theabuse that I, you know,
experienced, which was thesexual abuse and things like
that.
I did not want that if that waslove.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
Oh right, and so that puts a whole other dynamic.
SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
Like that's probably why I didn't seek love from her.
Even my grandmother, who didn'tsexually abuse me but still
abuse me, I there was aroughness there.
And I don't know that I I didn'twant love, but I didn't want to
get like we don't want to getabused.
I wasn't looking further love, Iwas looking for the calmness in
the storm.
SPEAKER_02 (23:17):
Okay.
Being an adopted person, and Ihave two moms, you know.
I mean, I had my adoptive momand I had my birth mom, and I
don't really talk about her onthe show very often.
But when you started saying thatyou were told that you were
hated, they said those things toyou.
(23:37):
I mean, I just that's just sohorrific that you went through
that.
I my uh biological mom didn'tsay those words to me, but in
many different ways she couldhave.
She just would, you know, it waslike a punch in the gut.
SPEAKER_01 (23:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
And I knew that she didn't want me.
So I mean, that's another layer,right?
When your mom doesn't want you,and you know, that's pretty
difficult.
So I really I I I wanted tounlearn all of this, and I've
done a lot of my own therapyover the years, you know.
(24:19):
I mean I I've become a prettysuccess, pretty I'm the word
isn't successful, it'sproductive, I guess.
I'm not the same person that Iwas when I was hurting that
deeply, and I don't heat hurtthat deeply at all now.
So I've really come a long way.
(24:39):
And so it's talking about howcan we unlearn this?
And when love comes withconditions, we internalize a
dangerous message.
If I'm not useful, I'm notvaluable.
If I don't do what I'm told, I'mbad.
If I speak against, I need tobe, I need to be quiet.
So this is a question are weshowing up in relationships as
(25:02):
our full selves or real selves,or just the parts of us that we
think is lovable with theparticular, with that particular
person?
I know for me that I was very, Iguess you could say, a very
promiscuous gal um growing up inmy high school, college, all the
(25:24):
way up until I ended up gettingmarried at 21.
And I always had a date, always,and I was always on that dance
floor three nights a week, fromthe time I was 15, actually till
I was 30, but up until I gotmarried, I from 15 to 21,
everybody was game.
(25:45):
I mean, you know, it was I am Iwould find somebody every single
night and I would flirt and youknow whatever would happen would
happen.
SPEAKER_00 (25:55):
Do you think it was that you were looking for love
and hoping that that was a wayto find it?
SPEAKER_02 (26:01):
I think I thought that was love.
I think I felt loved by gettingsomebody's attention in that
way, and then of course, alcoholwas involved.
And you know, I just I thoughtit was fun, it was my way of
escape.
I don't know if I really lookedat it as that they loved me
(26:22):
because I mean there was thatescape, there was that
somebody's paying attention tome in my real life at home, or
you know, I'm not getting paidattention to.
I felt important for that littlebit of time.
Somebody's looking at me andthey're thinking, hey, I'm
(26:42):
something.
And uh yeah, I mean, I didn'thate it.
Oh no, I don't know how to saythat, but uh yeah, I mean, I
didn't not like it.
So so, but I mean, that is howwe can get into a bad pattern of
trying to find love in the wrongplaces, really.
(27:05):
And eventually I did find aserious boyfriend, and I really
did think that I was gonna marryhim.
And I think I really, you know,we showed up for each other.
We really showed up for eachother, and I didn't have to fake
it, I didn't have to pretend atall.
We just really were with eachother.
Do you show up to relationshipsas your full self?
SPEAKER_00 (27:28):
Not in the beginning, no, because I was
hiding so much of my family.
I was so afraid that if they sawall of me, they would see that
abuse.
Even with my husband, and we'vebeen married almost 25 years.
I think he saw a lot of it inthe beginning.
But I mean, for the first halfof our marriage, I didn't
(27:50):
really, I don't want to say Iwasn't myself.
I was myself because Iabsolutely loved him.
And I will say I was promiscuousas well.
Um it was the time, it waswhatever.
Um, but you know, with myhusband too, and and with a lot
of them, I think my familyinterrupted that.
And so my family was theinterruption to any kind of a
(28:14):
relationship that would be.
Um, I I dated someone who wouldfind out right away that my
family was abusive and hecouldn't stay.
He just couldn't.
It was too much because hedidn't want to see how I was.
And because of that, when I metmy husband, which was right
after him, I kind of shelteredinto place where I protected
(28:36):
that side of I didn't want himto know about my past.
Um, and I I just wanted him toknow me for who I am, but I'm
still learning who I am still.
Like I said, in the beginning ofthe relationship, you were
trying to people please.
I didn't want him to leavebecause I really did care about
him.
I loved him.
(28:56):
It was like that feeling that Ijust, you know, he was my
person, you know.
And so I um I guess like now asI'm I'm going through therapy
and everything, I am allowingmyself to be me.
I'm still the me he knows, butthat now it's it's I'm even
more, you know what I mean?
(29:16):
I'm even more because I thinkum, you know, it's just you're
able to be more authenticallyyourself and to have that
authentic self love someone atthe same time and have them love
you.
And it's a scary thing whenyou've gone through that kind of
abuse, you are still learningabout love to be able to allow
(29:41):
yourself that vulnerability thatthey won't leave you.
And I think that's one of thethings with love is that that's
something that you want is nomatter how broken you are, that
you can still be loved.
And so I can definitely say now.
I'm I'm starting.
And again, I've been married for25 years.
(30:04):
Um, and it's been going well upeven with not showing, at least
when I say showing myself, it'sallowing that vulnerable side of
my background to come out and beokay because that background
doesn't define the love I havetoday.
That that that backgrounddoesn't define what I what I the
love I have for my husband.
SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
I'm cautious.
I think um, you know, I seepeople as outsiders and it takes
a while to let somebody in.
I'm friendly, but most of thetime I keep people at a distance
and I gradually test and see ifI can let them in.
And I think childhood pain, orreally any pain, um, any kind of
(30:45):
a destructive relationship, nomatter how old you are, can keep
people at a distance.
So, but I instantly keep peopleat a distance, and I gradually
see if you're one of thosepeople that I can let into my
circle.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
I was opposite.
I wanted everybody in the circlebecause that's how I thought
acceptance was.
That's how I thought maybe lovewas and everything.
But now at an older age, I amlike you.
I'm I'm I was always guarded,but I wanted my circle to be so
big because that's how I thoughtlove and acceptance was.
(31:21):
But now I can say truly that Iam very guarded.
And I just had, and we've talkedabout it.
I just had two experiences thatI let myself open up and truly
feel love for this other person,not in a relationship wise, but
uh maybe people in a parentallevel.
And um, I got the wind knockedout of me, and that happens, and
(31:45):
then all of a sudden you put upyour wall, and you're like, hell
no, I'm not gonna let anybodycome that close to me.
SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
Yeah, what changed for me with all of that was
being a mom myself, and thatlove surpasses all love here on
earth, and there is nothing butparenting a child, and I really
think that that is where I foundtrue love.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
Oh, absolutely, you know, as we were growing up and
we, you know, talked earlierabout envisioning these these TV
families, things like that.
I wanted to be able to givethat.
I didn't know I could, butthat's I want them to feel the
way I looked at people and felt.
(32:31):
And so um, yeah, becoming mom,oh my gosh, that was it was it's
life-changing, especially forsomeone like us.
It's like, you know, you neverknew you could love somebody so
much until you love your child.
SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
There's nothing like holding your child, yeah, yeah.
I I don't think that there's anygreater feeling.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
No, and you know, we're both parents of children
or child with autism, and Ithink that brings a whole other
dynamic of love to, you know, itdoes knowing, you know, and and
having and because they teach ustoo.
SPEAKER_02 (33:08):
Oh, absolutely, all of that.
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
So I feel like I've learned, I think I learned more
and more about how to, you know,unconditionally love someone
just from the way that they arewith everyone, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
Yeah, sometimes maybe, you know, we just want to
be, we just want to love forjust being, and we have to give
ourselves permission to take upspace.
We wake up in the morning andsay to ourselves, you know, I am
lovable because lovable becauseI just exist, because I just am.
I am worthy just because my, youknow, my friend, who is one of
(33:46):
my bestest friends in the wholeworld.
Um, I just absolutely love her.
Um, shard, uh Miss Love Freely,one of my closest friends, she
does this thing as a singer,she's in many, many groups, and
she gets up on stage and shedoes all these positive
affirmations, and she haseveryone in the crowd say these
(34:08):
words after her, and they'rejust so empowering.
And she's done it with my kids,and it's pretty interesting to
watch her do it with them, andshe's done it with me, and
she'll just look right at youand she said, Look, say, I am
loved, I am beautiful, and Iwant you to say it after me.
And do you know that you knowit's hard?
(34:31):
I've tried to do that with mynine-year-old, and he can't say
those things, and I don't knowif it's because he really
doesn't feel those things, it'salmost embarrassing for him to
say those things at this age,but you know, when I really
internalize it when I'm sayingit, it's hard.
(34:52):
Yeah, yeah, it's not somethingthat's easy to replace negative
self-talk with positive.
Now, I I have really grown onthat, but talking inwardly to
yourself, like I love you toyourself, you are beautiful.
Um, you deserve only goodthings, you don't allow any
(35:13):
toxic people in your life, youknow, you don't deserve any
toxic people in your life, thosetypes of things.
I think it's it's hard, but it'sneeded.
SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
I am an overthinker.
And so as an overthinker, Ialways had a problem.
You know, people would say, Oh,you're doing a great job.
Look at how much you've grown.
Look at how especially you know,I was coming through therapies
and stuff.
You you've come so far, you'vedone this, you are incredible,
like you know, all these things.
(35:42):
And I it was hard to take that,you know, it was really kind of
hard to like really trulybelieve that because you you're
so used to people just, and Isay used to when I was younger,
people would just say something,but not truly mean it.
It was just words that werebeing thrown out there.
Um, but to have people liketruly mean what they say to you.
(36:06):
I I have to say it it's probablybeen within the last month,
really, that I I started.
So I listened to Mel Robbins.
I absolutely love Mel Robins.
A lot of her her thing, um, thisnew thing I'm uh is about
keeping silent, right?
And and taking things in andkeeping silent.
(36:28):
And as I did that, I started tolook within me and seeing that,
you know, um I am enough.
And so um the I had the samething when people would say, oh,
you know, tell me your likerepeat after me.
And I've you know always feltuncomfortable.
So now actually what I'vestarted to do because I've just
(36:50):
been listening to her thing, um,I've written it down.
I'm kind of pulling over mynotebook and like I have things
written down, like, you know, Iam making progress.
I'll write that down.
I am making progress.
And when I say I'm makingprogress, all of a sudden I see
the good in me and I see all thethings that, you know, I am
(37:11):
worthy of.
Like I am worthy of love.
Like I am worthy of this.
I am a lovable.
Kind of different when just Idon't know.
I don't know if there's aspecific time in life that it
clicks.
Um, because I think you and Ihave talked and and we'll say
you're so far ahead of me as faras where you've come to peace
(37:31):
and and understanding differentthings, not the same, whatever.
Um, and I'm like, oh, I want tobe just like you someday because
I'm getting, you know.
But yeah, I think I've juststarted to get into the area of
my life where I'm like, man,yeah, I'm like really, I'm I'm
yeah, I am, you know what Imean?
(37:52):
It's the I am.
And you have to love yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
Yes, self-love.
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:58):
And and being able to internalize that, even if
people, even if people havegiven you many mixed messages,
yeah, really treated youawfully, made you feel like
you're just the least importantperson in the room.
You still have to try to figureit out how to self-love
eventually as you you get out ofthat, and not allow those
(38:19):
people's definitions to beinside of you because right,
correct.
They are wrong.
I mean, every single person isimportant, you matter.
Yeah, and you know, for those ofus who are peacekeepers, for us
not to confuse peacekeeping withlove, because I think that we
can do that.
If everyone's happy, then I'mloved.
(38:42):
I mean, that's that's just sowrong.
If no one's mad, then I'm safe.
If I sacrifice my needs, maybethey'll choose me.
And yeah, right.
And one of my biggest ones forme that got me into the most
abuse before I was healed frommy past trauma is I will do what
(39:04):
you say, just like me.
I will shut down, I will uhwhatever you want, I'll I'll be
this ragdoll for you, uh, andsay uh whatever you want because
fear is taking over my body andI can no longer stand up for
myself.
Just like me, though.
I just want you to like me.
SPEAKER_00 (39:22):
I don't know that I said I would do what you say or
whatever.
Again, not that you like me.
If we're talking about myyounger years, I I'll go back to
I wasn't seeking love from mygrandmother or my mother, but I
didn't want to be the ragdoll,and I knew that.
I knew that so instead ofanything else, I just kept
(39:44):
quiet.
But you're right, fear.
I mean, fear control, it's aprison, you know.
Fear is a prison because itencompasses so many different
things, so many differentlayers, and each of us has a
different, I don't know, shiftseverything.
SPEAKER_02 (40:02):
I was the reason why I believe I got that way.
Well, for one thing, beingautistic, but another reason was
because um fear overtook me.
I was held captive by my past.
And and the the fear thatconsumed me, took me into my 20s
were my worst time of my life.
(40:25):
I allowed it to happen becauseof who I was, because I was
being held captive by my past.
And I couldn't figure out a wayout, I couldn't find my voice,
and it really did shape me.
I did find a way out though.
Um, one of the things that savedme from that was I met my kids
(40:45):
and I adopted my two older ones,and I learned as time went on to
parent with presence instead ofto parent with fear.
And the day that I got them, andI was so afraid to be that
parent because you know, ofwhere I'd come from, and here I
am with my um, I had a girl thatused to live with us, and we
(41:06):
were really close.
Well, not live with us, she usedto stay with us all the time and
uh weekends and spend the nightall the time.
We were very, very close.
And at this time when I got mygirls, they she was about a
teenager age, and oh my gosh, Iwas she could see the panic in
my eyes the first night that Ihad the kids.
I mean, I had no kids, and now Ihave two kids.
(41:28):
Um and she saw the panic in myeyes, and she pulled me into the
bathroom, and she was just like,You got this, you got this.
Yeah, and I will never forgetthat.
And I realized that I had achoice and I was going to break
that generational cycle.
And I think that that was partof the fear.
You know, what was your firstsign that you knew you were
(41:50):
breaking the your mom'spatterns?
SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
The patterns in my family were a very cycle of
abuse, so they were alreadythere even before I came in.
So when I had my kids, I wasfortunate enough not to live in
the state that they were becausemy husband was military and we
moved.
So it was just really my husbandand myself, and you know, my
daughter first, my son.
And I think because I hadfriends around me that didn't
(42:17):
know my past, not at all.
But I think once I was startingto watch how they were with
their children and I was tryingto do the same at home, I
noticed that I was still livingon pins and needles anytime my
family would call me.
Like I was, you know, I hatedwhen the phone rang because I
lived this separate world.
I always kept my world separate,even growing up, because like my
(42:39):
school world and my home world,right?
SPEAKER_02 (42:42):
Oh, me too.
SPEAKER_00 (42:43):
I don't want to say that I was living in this
storybook with my kids, youknow, because I I wanted the
depictions of what I had when Iwas growing up, what I wanted,
and I didn't understand this.
As I'm telling you this rightnow, I didn't understand until
the last five years, to beperfectly honest, or maybe even
(43:04):
a little bit like eight, tenyears.
I wanted what I imagined I hadalways wanted when I was a kid.
And as I'm not living in thesame state as them and we're
just living separately, um, Idid different things with my
kids.
It wasn't there wasn't thatextended family around me.
When you ask me when did I knowthat I broke the cycle, is when
(43:28):
I ended contact with my motherin 2014.
Because even though I wasdifferent as a parent than she
was, than my grandmother was,even up until that time, it
wasn't until 2014 when I endedcontact with them, because
everybody, you know, left mebecause I ended that contact,
(43:52):
um, was my first sign ofchanging the pattern because I
no longer allowed that cycle tocontinue.
So it was me, you know, cuttingthem off and saying, nope, this
is what we're gonna build rightnow.
This is our family, this is whatwe're going to do.
But my fear of turning into myfamily was constant.
(44:15):
And again, I'm gonna go up untillike even today, I question some
things, you know, here andthere, because I never want to
be like, but it's weird becauseyeah, I did know that I was
being different, but it wasn'tuntil really 2014 that that
break from my family allowed meto just be the parent that I was
(44:36):
going to be, not the influenceof what I was going to be.
SPEAKER_02 (44:41):
There were lots of things that I did that I knew I
needed to be different.
First of all, I I wanted my thechoices that affected our family
to be a family choice.
No, okay.
And I did not want to be theperson making decisions for my
kids when I knew that it couldaffect them deeply.
(45:03):
And so um I would talk to them,I kept open communication, I
made sure that we um knew whereeach other stood with different
things, and um I wanted them tofeel the same way with me, you
know, and I wanted them to beable to come to me with
anything.
I was afraid of my mom.
I didn't feel like I could go toher for anything, and I never
(45:26):
wanted to throw uh this is hardto say, I never wanted to throw
a family member away.
And I knew that I was differentwhen I chose and I have worked
very hard to um love my kids,even though things uh are hard.
SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:46):
For whatever reason, my mom made the choices that she
did, and I'll never ever everunderstand why she did what she
did with my sister and things,but I knew that no matter what,
with my kids, that I would lovethem no matter what.
Because that's what we all want.
(46:06):
I just wanted everything to bedifferent.
Healing feels so unnaturalbecause it's not what we're used
to, but when you begin to walkdown the aisle of healing, it
eventually becomes a habit andit becomes who we are.
SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
Um, I have to go back to this with the um the the
love.
As I talked about my Michelle,she was my caseworker and and
counselor when I was 14 at anonprofit shelter in Trenton,
New Jersey called Anchor House.
I learned from her that I coulddo no wrong and be thrown away.
(46:40):
Like she's still in my lifesince I was 14.
I have done so many stupidthings that she could have
walked out of my life.
Yeah, she could have easilywalked out, but she never has,
even on the times where I'mlike, oh my god, why didn't you
run?
And she's like, mm-mm, because Ilove you.
See, and that is what I wantedmy kids to feel.
SPEAKER_02 (47:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
And so um I was learning, and as I was learning,
I was giving.
So as I continue to learn whatlove is or how really true love
is, I'm learning it, but I'malso giving it at the same time.
Like I said before with mydaughter, she with you know,
those teenage years, and and Iwould say, I love you, but I
(47:26):
don't like you right now.
And I made sure of it, like,listen, I love you no matter
what.
Something that I did when my mydaughter came out um as being
part of the LGBTQ community, itwas okay, I love you no matter
what.
When I tell you you are my childand I love you no matter what,
(47:50):
that means that there is nocondition to who you have to be
in order for me to love you.
I want you to be you, it becomeswho we are.
Is again, I feel like I'm stilllearning through this process.
As I've had Michelle, you know,teach me this unconditional
love, as I've reconnected withteachers that I've had that were
(48:13):
really influential in my lifewhere I saw, like my one
teacher, there was a simplemoment in eighth grade where um
I had been in the shelter andsomething happened at school.
So I was, you know, goingthrough really the difficult
times of abuse at home and I gotaway from it.
And a simple, simple sentencekind of helped like reshape
things as far as like I'velearned to bring with me.
(48:35):
And I feel like this part of thewhole love language was she's
like she introduced me tosomeone as this is my Denise.
It was just a sentence, right?
Was it a literal thing from her?
No, however, that sentencefilled me with I was wanted, and
I think that being wanted helpsyou to become loved or helps you
(49:00):
to know that you are lovedbecause you know, loved and
being wanted are are you know,they're in fine, and so um that
is something that I want my kidsto continue to feel.
SPEAKER_02 (49:14):
Yeah, I want my kids to know that they're wanted,
yeah, yeah, really important tome.
SPEAKER_00 (49:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (49:19):
Now reversing that again to you know, another one
big one is to put down whatisn't ours because I think that
we can carry, and I know that Icarry things that were not mine
forever.
And I I felt I was the one thatdid the sins of my mom, and I
and I really did blame myselffor what happened with my
(49:43):
sister.
I don't know why, because Iguess I didn't speak up when she
was walking out the door, but Iwas told not to.
So I don't know.
I mean, I know, but I've ownedthat forever, and I felt like it
was my fault when my dad died,and I don't know why.
I don't know why I feelresponsible to I don't know why
I felt responsible to make mymom feel happy all the time.
(50:05):
And I had to put those thingsdown, and I still once in a
while I will pick them back upagain, but my mind really does
know that it's not my fault.
I have to still, I'm like Isaid, I have to convince myself
at times.
Do you have things that youcarry or or have carried that
are not yours to carry?
SPEAKER_00 (50:25):
I think the generational abuse, I keep, you
know, it's a hard thing to putinto words what I, you know,
what you carry.
I think I'm the same way where Itook responsibility for
everything.
Well, it's my fault that thathappened.
You know, when you areconditioned, my mother all the
time would say, it's your faultthat I don't have.
(50:47):
It's your fault that I don'tthis.
She was 16 when she had me.
And so when we talk about likethe not wanting, I've heard
that.
I never wanted you, I neverthis, I never that.
Um, and then you know, as shewas, you know, a teenager
growing up, it was my fault thatshe didn't have these things
(51:10):
because I was the the addedweight to things, if that makes
sense.
And so I think that that is it'smy therapist will will tell me
sometimes too, she's like, youknow, that's not your fault for
that.
And it's hard because that'swhat you were conditioned to
feel like, especially when theytell you it's your fault
(51:33):
because, and even though we knowthat that's not the truth, like
we know we're adults, we'relike, you know, we're uh smart
individuals and and you know,logical that we know it's not
our fault.
But I think when you'reconditioned with it so much that
you do take the blame for it,you do think, well, their misery
(51:54):
or the reason their life didn'tturn out like my life is because
you know, that I did something.
And I I did spend a lot of mychildhood questioning everything
because I was told it was myfault.
I believed everything, the abusewas my fault.
You you know, if you weren'tbad, you wouldn't be hit.
Well, if you weren't this, thiswouldn't happen to you.
(52:16):
So I thought that all the thingsthat happened to me were because
I did something wrong.
It in fact it wasn't, it was thethings that had happened to her.
SPEAKER_02 (52:26):
Yeah, I don't know why we do that.
I've always done, and I I don'tthink it comes from they really
blamed us, you know.
And when somebody's and you'reyoung, you really internalize
what they're saying.
And so then when you're oldenough to even believe, like I'm
not the one that did that, theydid that.
Why am I owning it?
(52:46):
Right.
I I just think it's just soingrained in who we are because
they said it so many times, orthey really did make you feel
like that.
And so it's really hard toshake.
I have no trouble shaking the,you know, I I know I've done
something wrong, I own it, Iwork through it, I talk to the
person I've wronged, orwhatever, you know.
(53:08):
I mean, but the things that Icarry that were somebody else's,
I don't think that we can reallywork through that process, that
same process.
We just can't work through itthe way that we can when it is
legit something that we did.
Yeah, so it's just somethingthat still continues to try to
live with us, it would livewithin us when and we can't
(53:29):
shake it the same way.
We can't because it's not it, wecan't go through that process.
There's no way you can you Ican't go to anybody and
apologize and try to workthrough with them with something
that I didn't even do, right?
SPEAKER_00 (53:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (53:43):
So why do I keep owning it?
SPEAKER_00 (53:44):
And why are um, you know, and that's the thing.
Like, I'm not gonna apologizefor the abuse you you gave me.
I'm not gonna apologize for whyyou didn't love me.
I'm not gonna be sorry aboutthat.
I didn't do anything for you notto, and then you know, because
mine was generational, there's alot of people who would say,
(54:08):
Well, I had this happen, and I'mI'm just gonna throw him under
the bush.
My my father recently, and youknow, we've reconnected my he
had read my book and he hadsaid, you know, I had a lot to
think about.
I was like, Well, what the heckdoes that mean?
And then we were talking, andhe's like, Well, you, you know,
because I talk about the abuse,I talk about all the things I'd
(54:30):
gone through.
And he was like, Well, can youimagine what it was like for
your mother and what she wentthrough?
Why is that my fault?
Right?
So it was almost as if I'm tofeel sorry for her.
Yeah, and I have why is that my?
I mean, why is it my fault thatshe went through that?
(54:51):
It's not my fault.
I didn't I didn't go throughthat, but I had a lot of guilt
too, I will say.
I was so fortunate to have theteachers that I had in my life
that I learned from, um, that Itook a little bit here and there
from that um, so I'm fortunatethat I have a lot of these
teachers who have that are stillin my life that were in my life
(55:13):
as a teenager going up andwhatever, who saw the other side
of me.
Um, because I had my two sides,I had my school side and my you
know, home side or whatever.
They saw, they didn't see theweight, they didn't see that
dysfunction or that, or that um,you know, the cycle.
SPEAKER_02 (55:29):
I think, and I want to add this, and this is another
thing that I really never talkabout on this podcast.
I think I've met I havementioned it in an episode, but
it's been a really long time, isthat I was a product of rape.
SPEAKER_00 (55:44):
Okay.
So I was told that too.
So yeah, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (55:48):
I I thought so.
And so that's an instant like uma negative feeling about who you
are.
I mean, you in negatively wereconsummated in this really awful
way, and you know, it was anangry, awful thing, and then you
came out of it.
(56:09):
So I don't know, and and it wasused against me.
It was said to me, and I won'tsay who said this to me, but it
was a family member who saidthat my biological mom didn't
want me there.
Um, because after all, I wasjust a rape to her.
SPEAKER_00 (56:24):
I uh yeah, and you know what?
My mother used to just tell thatto me.
She was like, you know what, Ionly have you because I was
raped.
And I remember hearing that forthe very first time when I was
four.
When I was four, and I didn'tknow what it meant.
I didn't know what it meant, butit was something that stuck with
me because you know, a lot ofpeople go, Oh, how can you
remember that?
Well, I will say this when youwere a child that was um raised
(56:48):
in trauma and abuse, two thingsthat happened to you.
Either you repress everything toprotect yourself, or you're like
me, and you remember thingsalmost down to the detail.
And I never understood what thatmeant until I got obviously a
lot older and understood whatthat was.
Obviously, my father, because Idid connect with him, there's
(57:09):
two different stories.
I don't know whose is true.
I really don't, and I'm not hereto say I know because I wasn't
there, and I'll never tellsomeone that you weren't raped
because I wasn't there, and I'mnot gonna ever shame you or do
that, even to my own mother.
But yeah, I same thing.
It was like you and that takesaway from love too.
(57:30):
You weren't you weren't chosen,you know, and I don't I'm not an
adoptive parent, but in my mind,I wasn't loved from the get-go,
and I think that in the youknow, I it I wasn't built out of
love.
SPEAKER_02 (57:44):
Yeah, well, I mean, lots of kids that they know that
their parents love each other somuch, and they were a product of
their love.
Correct.
I mean, that's a beautifulthing, yeah.
And um, but when you don't havethat, it does really put a
different definition on love.
And I just want to put a pledgeout, you know, I to make a
(58:06):
pledge to love differently, todo whatever it takes, to be
different than today was tough.
We talked about a lot of reallytough things and we laid some
heavy things down.
I just don't want to pick themback up.
If you're if you're listeningand realizing that maybe that
you have been carrying love uhin all the wrong ways or in the
(58:30):
hard ways, and you don't reallyknow the definition of love.
Please know that you're notalone.
You can rewrite what love means,you can rebuild it, and you
deserve a version of love thatdoesn't ask you to disappear to
receive it, that you don't haveto be someone else's puppet.
Thank you, Denise, for beinghere.
(58:52):
I really appreciate you beinghere and talking about this.
I I was, you know, I was rightaway, I was like, Well, uh, I
know the perfect person to haveon for this topic.
So awesome.
Yeah, so thank you so much forbeing on.
And thank you to our listenersfor showing up for yourself
today.
Because if you listen to this,you showed up for yourself.
(59:14):
And remember that, as we alwayssay, that there is purpose in
the pain and there is hope inthe journey.
Subscribe to Real Talk with Tinaand Ann.
And until next time, keep lovingdifferently, where the best kind
of love allows you to finally beseen.
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