What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Quotable

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A 93-year-old powerhouse and her equally remarkable daughter share wisdom gleaned from lives spanning Depression-era hardship, wartime childhood, personal loss, and professional reinvention in this captivating Mother's Day conversation.

Meet Gwen Borden and Amy Goober, co-authors of "My Mother Always Says: 25 Lessons for Finding the Silver Lining"—women whose combined 150+ years of experience offer profound insights on resilience. Gwen's extraordinary journey began when she was born during the Depression, lived through her sister's polio diagnosis,  was just 10 during Pearl Harbor's bombing and spent nights, alone during wartime blackouts, while her dad worked the war and her mom was an air raid warden, and later witnessed the Twin Towers fall during 9/11. Rather than being defined by tragedy, she channeled her experiences into becoming a pioneering social worker who opened the first bereavement center of its kind and counseled many directly affected by the 9/11 tragedy. 

Their central philosophy—"there are no bad experiences in life, just ones we don't learn from"—has guided them through profound challenges. When Gwen's husband received a terminal diagnosis at 49, she transformed grief into purpose by focusing on giving him "a good death" at home. This approach of relabeling negative experiences and finding opportunity in adversity forms the foundation of their shared wisdom.

Amy embodies this resilience in her own journey, having lost her father as a teen before launching multiple successful careers—from a bakery business at 26 to coaching hundreds of women through midlife transitions. Her mantra of "get comfortable being uncomfortable" encourages women to take action rather than remain stuck in comfortable routines. Now through her Wandering Women travel experiences, she helps others build confidence through community adventures.

What makes their perspective so valuable is their commitment to continual reinvention. At 93, Gwen published her first book and remains vibrant and engaged with life. Their intergenerational wisdom reminds us that our later years can be among our most meaningful chapters—and that asking "how will I handle this?" instead of "why me?" transforms our darkest moments into opportunities for growth.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne and today we have aMother's Day special like no
other.
We're joined by the authors ofmy Mother Always Says 25 Lessons
for Finding the Silver Lining avery unique mother-daughter duo
, by the way over 150 years ofexperience.

(00:22):
Yes, I said that right.
150 years of experience.
Yes, I said that right.
150 years plus experience.
Gwen Borden is 93 years old andher daughter, amy Guber, is in
her 60s.
Their book isn't just acollection of sayings.
It's a treasure trove of lifelessons from two strong,

(00:45):
resilient women.
Wen's story alone is incredible.
She was born during thedepression, came home as a
newborn to assist her with polio, living through two pandemics,
and she was just 10 years oldwhen Pearl Harbor was bombed.
Her resilience led her tobecome a social worker and to

(01:07):
open the first bereavementcenter of its kind.
She was in the midst of historyagain when she witnessed the
planes go into the Twin Towersduring 9-11 and has spent
decades counseling individualsand also helping people who were
directly affected by thetragedy of 9-11.
And today, at 93, she's anauthor and speaker and still

(01:32):
making a huge impact.
Amy Guber, gwen's daughter,brought her own incredible
strength to the project.
Though they're different inmany ways, they share the same
spark for leadership and life.
You know, amy lost her dad tobrain cancer as a teen, but she

(01:53):
built a career of reinvention,launching a bakery business at
26, coaching over 700 clientsand starting a thriving business
in her 60s.
She now empowers women to takethe driver's seat in their own
lives and credits much of herspirit to her amazing mom.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Apples don't fall far from the tree.
We come from such a greatorchard.
Oh, the women in our family aresuch innovators and doers and
brave.
So our orchard has fostered allof this in both of us.
We come from people who havegiven us this over the
generations.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Oh, I don't doubt it.
I can see that you guys areliving what you guys have
experienced and you're justpassing it on from generation to
generation, as I also saw inthe book, with your daughter,
jessie Amy.
But first of all, you know, Ijust want to thank you for being
on.
I am so honored to have you onand I've also been so excited to

(02:57):
meet you.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Thank you, we're happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
So, first of all, I really just have to ask this
what made you sit down and sayyou know, let's write a book
together?

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Well, I mean, I found that I was really quoting my
mother a lot more recently.
So I'm 65 now, so I would sayin the last like five to eight
years, you know, even more thanusual.
I was saying just inconversation well, my mother, as
my mother would say, and mymother always says, and I
realized a lot of her wisdom andsayings and mantras are things

(03:33):
that have really helped methrough a lot of things in my
life and I felt like they werevery, very shareable.
And so I just sort of said tomy mother, what if we write this
book?
And she said, well, that'sgreat.
And now, two years later, it'sfinally done.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
So yeah, I like to say I gave birth to Amy, but she
gave birth to this book.
Oh, ok, she did all the labor.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, but, gwen, you spent a lifetime saying these
words.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
You know, I said them because that's just who I am.
I always talk to myself.
And if I didn't talk to myself,I was a teacher talking to
children, or I was doing griefwork, teaching other people how
to live through their losses intheir lives.
Right right, I've been ateacher all my life.
Right right, I'm going to teachher all my life.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
You know that just says, that just really speaks to
me so much that that's howyou've wanted to just constantly
give back to others.
You know you were born duringthe depression and as a newborn,
like I said, your sister wasdiagnosed with polio, but that
led your mom to rely on othersto care for you, which really
set the tone, I think, for therelationship that you two had.

(04:46):
So then, at just 10 years old,you lived through the bombing of
Pearl Harbor.
How did all of theseexperiences in your young life
shape you as a person as yougrew into who you are today?

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Well, there were things that had to be done and
we did them.
In other words, when we moveddown to North Virginia later in
that December that same year, wemoved into a house with no heat
, no water.
It was unfinished, this was thebeginning of wartime and I had
to go to school, so they justmarched me off to the nearest

(05:21):
elementary school, all by myself, and I presented myself at
school was a Francis E Willardschool, where we began every
single day singing OnwardChristian Soldiers.
I was the only Jewish child inthat school, but I learned that
song and I sang it out, eventhough I was called a listener.
So I was just sent off toschool because you had to go.

(05:45):
We lived in the house becauseyou had to live somewhere.
It was simply a question ofthis is the situation, get into
it.
No excuses, no, no, no notessaying please excuse Gwen, you
just went in and did it.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Well, I love your no excuse attitude.
I mean, I've always had thatsame attitude.
It can appear a little tough attimes, I guess, but I mean
there's, I live by that.
So, good for you.
I very much appreciate thatbetween the two of you.
You have faced tremendous griefand loss, yet you never let it

(06:23):
get you down when one of yourcore beliefs really struck with
me.
There were many, by the way,but there are no bad experiences
in life, just the ones we don'tlearn from, and I think that's
where so many people get stuck.
They're focused on the paininstead of the growth.
Life is way too short and it'sall about perspective.

(06:48):
Can you share how this mindsetshaped your journey?
I mean, maybe you were justautomatically built this way,
but you know it helped you moveforward.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Just lucky.
Luckily, I have a core ofoptimism in me, so that when my
husband was diagnosed at 49 anddeath sentence, there was no,
he's going to get well, he wasdefinitely going to die within
months.
And people were saying to me ohyou, poor thing, we feel so
sorry for you and the children.

(07:19):
And I said don't feel sorry forus, we, we are going to be all
right.
And I knew we would be allright.
I feel sorry for that man who'sdying in the prime of his life.
On the other hand, I said youknow, it's not so bad.
He's dying at the top of hislife, the top of his game,
looking great, having hugesuccess.

(07:40):
He's not going to have to faceold age or failure.
Maybe it's not so bad.
And then I was thinking whatcould I do for him?
And I realized I could not savehis life, although I tried.
I realized I could give him agood death, and that was a very
powerful force for me to givehim as good a death as I could,

(08:00):
taking him home from thehospital, having him be in his
own house with his own family,eating food he liked, being as
comfortable as he could be untilthe very end, which is what he
was.
So that was a feeling ofaccomplishment, of what could
you do in the worst ofsituations was do something for
the person who was facing theultimate death moments who is

(08:23):
facing the ultimate deathmoments.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
You always have perspective shifts in how you
handle some of the hardest times, and one of the things that you
said was that you can relabelyour bad experiences, which is
what you just did, and what aperspective shift.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
It's what social workers do all the time.
So when I became a socialworker, I was right at home,
because social workers arechange agents and we're all
labeling the people's lives togive them hope that they can
make their lives better.
So this is the laboratory oflife.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Amy, you said in a book that your mom has the
ability to boil down herinsights into a single phrase or
a sentence that just is somemorable and effective.
I was just curious was she likethat as a kid?
Did she just put out thosezingers?

Speaker 3 (09:16):
I don't.
You know, I don't really, to behonest, I don't really remember
as much of it.
You know, growing up, becauseyou know my tendency was to kind
of I'm very independent in alot of ways.
So my tendency was, you know,growing up, because you know my
tendency was to kind of I'm veryindependent in a lot of ways,
so my tendency was what?
You know what?
What are many young girls do?
Their mother tells themsomething and they say no.
You know they want to do theother thing, or you know, to be
like a little oppositional.

(09:37):
So I don't remember that theywere like little zingers.
I think it was more as I gotolder.
Don't forget, we don't reallyappreciate the parents and the
teaching of our parents whenwe're being parented.
I think we don't.
Even three grown children Idon't know that they appreciate
us as parents while we wereparenting them.
Now they're in their 20s and30s and they will often comment

(10:02):
just the other day my son wastalking to my husband at his
birthday and we were saying youknow what was it like?
You know, and you hear youradult children say now that they
appreciate what we were like asparents.
And I don't know that kids,even young teenagers and adults
appreciate their parents whenthey're parenting.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
I think part of growing up is that pushback.
Part of growing up.
When I was in her early teens Ihad to say no to her.
For example, she couldn't go toa party where there was no
appropriate chaperone.
Some mother's idea of anappropriate chaperone was my
17-year-old daughter and herboyfriend will chaperone them.

(10:42):
And I'd say you can't go tothat party.
And she was very angry and I'mnot going to go.
I said then you don't gobecause I have you cry than me
cry.
And so there were times whenshe pushed back and it didn't do
.
I was a very firm mother aboutkeeping her safe as long as I
could.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
Right, that's what we do as moms.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Right, push back.
Amy was one to say no, and Idon't want to and I I'll die.
You know all those things thatteenage girls.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Well, it sounds like Amy did her job as a kid.
Did you learn from that?
Yeah, yeah, you know.
One of my favorite things to doas a kid, though, was um and
Amy.
I'm a little bit younger thanyou, but I would sit and listen
to my uncle tell stories ofriding the trains and, you know,
I would listen to my aunts andthings like that talk and the

(11:35):
wisdom that they would justshare.
I mean, why do you think thatthis is just so important to
pass down these words from thatgeneration?

Speaker 3 (11:44):
I mean, I really think it's because in the world
today, a lot of what we callinfluencers are young people,
young, young, young, young,young.
They have a different colorhair or you know, they're
influencers.
We don't know how, we don'tknow why.
I'm generalizing.
It's not always based oncontent and you know, inner

(12:04):
truth or anything.
It's a flashy something and Ireally feel that this book is
not geared toward midlife at all.
It's geared toward anyone.
You know, yes, any age, man orwoman.
A lot of my friends have boughtthe book and their husbands have
picked it up and messaged meand said I loved this book.

(12:26):
So, you know, you think you'resort of gearing yourself maybe
toward women, but the men haveloved it as well, but also
younger women, younger women arelooking for direction and this,
this is a very hard world todayfor I think, for many, many
reasons that we don't need to gointo, but I think there's a lot
of people, young people, whoare very much adrift and I think

(12:48):
for them to hear a story of a93 year old and what she faced,
and then what are some of sortof the mantras and the sayings.
So you know, describing thisbook to people and say, well,
what's in the book?
And I'd say, well, it's, youknow, my mother's kind of life
lessons, but it's not.

(13:08):
Don't forget your lipstick,that's not what it is.
It's things that are going tohelp you pass through and make
things easier and things thatyou can tell you.
My kids quote her.
Well, we just did.
I just did a big event onSaturday.
I do women's events.
We had almost a hundred womenin the room.
We spoke and eight other womenspoke on all different topics,
different experts and somewhatmy younger daughter happened to
be there.

(13:28):
My 23-year-old flew in to behere, to be with us, and she was
sort of moderating this booktalk and people were asking her
questions and they said you knowwhat are you going to say?
Are you going to say you know,my mother always says, my Nana
always says like you know whatare you going to say?
And you know, she said she grewup with this, she grew up with
the, with the example, with theillustration of, of, of what we

(13:51):
say and what we do and how we,and that is what she's learned.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
I want to say something about this young woman
.
When she was 15 and her fatherwas dying and we were going,
when he was in the hospitalgetting treatment people in the
room she'd walk in with herhomework always a cheerful word
for people, always a cheerfulword for her father.
Now, where'd she get that from?

(14:15):
My father and mother were stillalive.
She had never seen me do that.
Somehow she knew exactly whatto do.
She was this cheerful ray ofsunshine and cheered up the
people in the hospital.
I mean, that's cheering upeverybody around her at that
time.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah Well, I can tell that you both just have a heart
for that kind of thing.
Both of you do, I mean, it justcomes naturally.
One of the best gifts that myfamily gave me and it has to do
with your generation, gwen isthat you know your, your
generation taught usperseverance and overcoming, and
I think that you know you wentthrough so many hardships but

(14:55):
you showed that there were noexcuses.
You just kept going and youdidn't need.
You know, like the differentcolored hair and the different
crazy things that some of theseinfluencers have to do to get
across to people.
Now, you know, I mean, you justwere, you just did.
There were no excuses and nomatter how hard things got, you

(15:17):
know you just did it.
That's just that simple.
And I remember watching myelders, you know, and I was just
so impressed with who they were, even as a kid.
Thank you for what yourgeneration went through and
showing our generation that itcan be done, and I bet that
generation learned from thegeneration before it too.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Probably, I would think so.
Our parents and our elders allour lives, and they are our
first teachers, sure, bestteachers.
And the best we learn is bywatching what others do, not
what they say.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
You know, Gwen, getting back to your younger
years and what made you who youare, because I think you too are
some of the most incrediblewomen that I've ever met.
I think you two are some of themost incredible women that I've
ever met.
Gwen, you were what you call alatchkey kid and, like that,
Cinderella of the family,because you were expected to

(16:14):
come home with nobody there andyou did all the chores, but yet
you remained so positive.
You were living through wartimeblackouts alone at night
because your mom worked, as Ithink it was an air raid warden,
if I remember.
I couldn't even imagine when Iread that.
I mean, could you share moreabout that season, how you got

(16:37):
through those tough nights?
You know it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
During the war we all had war fever so that we were
all doing things for the wareffort.
I took a first aid course whenI was a Girl Scout and I took a
day.
I just injured my finger badlyand I said I know what to do
with this finger.
I learned that when I was 11years old in first aid class.
So the war caught us up, wewere all part of the war effort

(17:03):
and that helped do what we weredoing.
We weren't left home because wehad mean parents.
We were left home because mymother was doing her work for
the war effort.
My father was down in Texasdoing his work for the war
effort and I was the kid at homeso my job was to stay home and
guard the house.
And you know, I can't evenimagine Make it into something

(17:28):
important and good.
It's positive.
It wasn't like the poor littlegirl was left home all by
herself.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Would you consider that you did parent yourself?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
Absolutely, and it was a great gift my parents gave
me that they taught me how toswim alone, walk alone, be alone
.
It was the greatest gift theycould have given me for my
adulthood to learn to do thingson my own, because I could.
I went away to college bymyself and people were horrified

(18:01):
today to say you went all byyourself on a train out to?

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Well, yeah, because your dad said if you wouldn't,
then you weren't going.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Well, no, what he said was if you're not ready to
do this, you're not ready forcollege.
Right, right, he was absolutelyright.
Yes, he was absolutely right.
The first time I had to flyalone, I said I don't know, dad,
about flying.
He said if you can't fly homefor Easter, then don't come home
.
Well, that was the choice youeither were going to do it or
you were going to miss that.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
I love that and it is a choice, you're right.
But so many times just peopleautomatically think I can't and
they don't see the choice.
But I love that you see thechoice.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well then, if you don't see the choice, you feel
like a victim, and that is not agood thing to be in life.
Amen, absolutely.
And I've been made to do thisand I can't do this.
The more you do, the strongeryou get, the more capable you
are, and so the growth reallycontinues.
It's like exercise If you don'tuse your body, it's going to
fall to rot.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
You know, my dad died when I was 11.
And my mom went out and shecreated a very successful tax
business, but she wasn't home.
You know, I mean I too wouldcome in and make my TV, dinner
and do all the things in thehouse without her being there,
at 11, 12 years old.
And you know, you just do it,you just figure it out.

(19:29):
You know, you just do it, youjust figure it out.
And I mean, what other choicedo you have?
And I had an imaginary familyliving in my head and we did.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
We did just fine, exactly.
But you see, if you took theroad that said I can't do it and
played the victim, you end upbeing a victim the rest of your
life.
You're always saying, but Ican't, would try it, but I can't
do it, I don't know how to doit.
So your mother gave you a greatgift when she said you can do

(19:58):
it.
And you did do it.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, you know you said also that be grateful for
the people who did show up.
You know that's such a powerfulperspective.
It's easy to focus on the oneswho didn't.
You know if our parents weren'table to be there for whatever
reason, and that can leave a bighole in your heart.
But if we shift our focus tothose who did show up, we can
start to heal and fill thatspace.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
So much of.
It is a case of seeing theglass half full or the glass
half empty.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Well, the two of you really do point out in this book
that it is critical how we talkto ourselves, so could you talk
more about that, amy?

Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think that well, I say this often,
which isn't a complete answer tothis question but I always
wanted a sister.
I have one brother a year olderand I always wanted a sister my
whole life right, that's tryingto have more children.
You know, I always wanted asister.
I have one brother a year olderand I always wanted a sister my
whole life right, that's tryingto have more children.
You know, I always wanted asister, and so what ended up
happening over time was now Irun women's events and women's

(21:00):
travel, and I just spoke to 90people two days ago.
I couldn't what can you controland what can't you control?
I couldn't control whether Ihad a biological sister right,
that was not in my control, butI've created like a sisterhood.
So you take what you're givenand then you decide what you're
going to do with it, and I thinkthat is.
I think that many women don'ttake the reins, don't get in the

(21:23):
driver's seat.
They don't have a lot ofconfidence or they feel
victimized or they just kind ofyou know, they're like they
shudder, they're meek, and soit's really important for me for
women to know what they haveinside, what their value is and
what they can do and it doesn't.
It can be small, medium orlarge.
It can be big.

(21:44):
They don't have to go start abusiness.
I mean that's too big for somepeople, that's not for everybody
, but it could be medium, itcould be.
I'm going to go take that class, you know, I'm going to go talk
to the neighbor.
I've never I'm going to knockon the neighbor's door.
That's medium for a lot ofpeople, right.
Or it can be small and I thinkthat we forget what we do have
control over and that's thepositivity I think that you're

(22:07):
talking about.
It's just said in a differentway and I just these women the
other day at this event, and Ibasically said that life is like
a game board, it's luck andstrategy, and most of these
women are midlife women, ish,you know, that's sort of a group
somewhere younger.
But you know, I just said tothem you know, roll the dice

(22:30):
like go do it, go do something,go do anything.
That's so comfortable in whatwe're doing.
Right, we have the same routine, we do the same things, we talk
to the same people, we eat thesame seven foods, we, you know,
we do the same of the same, ofthe same and that's very
comfortable.
But then don't complain thatyou have kind of a humdrum life

(22:51):
or that you're missing out,right?
How many women do you hear sayoh you know the parade's passing
, I'm missing out on so manythings.
I think it's because they'renervous or uncomfortable.
And so I say get comfortablebeing uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
They were afraid to fail too Right, being afraid,
unafraid to fail.
Say so, if I fall on my face,what's the worst thing that's
going to happen?
I'm going to get up.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
You may there you go, he knows, but I am going to
keep walking right and and even,and just to piggyback on that,
even when writing this book, youknow, and I do what I call
scary things, you know, I, I doscary.
Writing this book was a scarything, you know.
It's a lot of sort ofresponsibility, and I felt that
I was representing my mother.

(23:34):
So I felt even moreresponsibility.
And at one point, in the middleof all of this, with the
publisher and that, you know, Isaid to my husband I couldn't, I
can't sleep, I couldn't sleeplast night, didn't sleep last
night, you know.
And I went to this whole thingabout how, what if it comes out?
What about the reviews?

(23:54):
You know, right, all of asudden, I wasn't anywhere near
publishing, I was in the middleof it and I said what if, what
if?
All these bad reviews?
I'm going to feel horrible, I'mgoing to feel terrible.
And he just said to me thisisn't the scariest thing you've
done.
You've done so many scarierthings than this, so just keep
going.
And so that's the key, thoughit's exactly what you said.
And we're so fortunate, we havebeautiful reviews and, you know
, so far, so good, like a lot ofpositivity.

(24:14):
But you know, you, you can'twrite the script.
Moving forward on everythingyou do.
I'm sure you starting thispodcast right.
Was that something for you thatyou said, oh my God, I can't
start it, but you know you didit and look at, look at you now.
So we all have to kind of takea chance.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
Oh, absolutely, and everything is a stepping stone
to where we're going.
Even if we do fail, you know it, it really does teach us what
we need to do in order to justdo something else open up
another door or a window orwhatever, and go through, and it
leads us to where we'resupposed to be.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
I totally agree and I think we're some of our
experiences.
So if you stop having newexperiences, you're really
stunting your own growth, atwhatever age you're at.
She just published her firstbook, at 93.
I know I mean.
So what a good role model forthat right.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Besides, if you don't fail, you're missing a big
chunk of life's experiences, oflearning some humility.
What you can't do well isbetter sometimes than knowing
what you can do well, becauseyou put it into a dry
perspective.
I'm never going to be six feettall, I'm never going to have
curly hair, I'm never going tohave dimples.

(25:25):
Oh, poor me At five.
You know, shirley Temple wasthe big hero in everybody's life
.
And there I was, this kid withstraight hair, no dimples, fat,
couldn't dance, couldn't sing.
Woe is me.
And look what happened.
I still don't have curly hair,but that's okay.
But you're here at 93.
You know something I am notonly here.

(25:47):
I'm happy to be here, I'm happy.
I'm in very good health, I feelgood, I jump around, I walk, I
cook, I cook every day, allthose things.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
You know, one of my heroes who is in his 90s is Dick
Van Dyke, and what I love isthat he just says you know, when
they asked him, you know howare you doing this.
And he's like well, you justkeep moving.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
That's what you do Well.
He also married a younger woman, so I give him credit for being
smart enough to do that.
Yeah, I am married to a man for44 years, my second husband,
who's 98.
Yes, and he's doing well.
He's doing as well as any98-year-old man I ever knew.
How many 98-year-old men do youknow?

(26:32):
I don't, I don't, he's the only.
He's still in our bridge group.
He's the oldest man.
He's still the best looking,the best dressed.
I mean he, you know, he's, inhis own way, amazing because we
have lived so long.
He's a world veteran.
I mean we have lived so longthat by now we have become the

(26:53):
amazing folk.
Everything we do is amazing,that we walk, we talk, we
breathe, we do anything.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Well, you know, you guys have the stories and and
like, my dad died and when hewas 55 years old and he was in
World War II and I was only 11.
You know I didn't get to reallyask those questions and get
those answers from what his lifewas like, but I mean it's such

(27:21):
a blessing to be able to sitdown and talk and listen to you
who also lived during that time,and you have the wisdom and the
knowledge of what happened backthen, that so many people don't
get to hear it from maybe theirparents because they're no
longer here, you know.
One more question about thisbecause I really am curious when

(27:41):
you've shown how even thehardest negative experiences can
become positive teachers foryou, you chose to be the
opposite of your mom, like whenyou paused your PhD to support
your son's needs.
You know that kind ofselflessness seemed to come so
naturally for you.

(28:02):
So when your mom dropped youoff at the hospital before you
had your first child and waslike you know, I just want to go
shopping, Did you ever wonderwhy?
I know blame probably wasn'tever in your vocabulary, but did
you ever wonder why thatinstinct didn't come naturally
to her?

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Well, I knew why, and the longer my mother's dead,
the more I understand her life.
She was the youngest of sixgirls who, at eighth grade, was
forced to leave school to workat her father's butcher shop.
This was a woman of greatintellectual capacity who never
had an education, but maybe herdaughters did so.

(28:42):
Everything my mother did didn'thave a negative piece.
Some of the fact that she didnot know how to be a mother I
chalk up to the fact she didn'thave much mothering herself.
A woman with a children who waspoor did not have much time for
mothering either.
So learning from whence shecame, what made her the way she

(29:05):
was, really helped me understandthat she could have been no
other way than she was, andluckily she had so many good
qualities that she passed on tome, not the least of which was
insisting that I have a goodeducation and all provided for
that.
That's a gift a lot of peopledidn't have from their parents.

(29:26):
Both my parents, my father,also had to leave school.
He was the oldest son of sixchildren.
You know, in those days peoplewere just poor and there wasn't
much in the way of advantagethey could have from their
parents, and they didn't haveparenting the way we know
parenting, I assure you.
You know, my father 98, willsay his father never said I love

(29:48):
you to him.
Well, in those days parentsdidn't say I love you to their
children.
They were busy enough justsupporting them and keeping them
healthy, but they didn't say Ilove you or you're wonderful.
He didn't have any of that kindof softness and supportiveness.
That was not considered goodparenting, really, really.

(30:09):
That was not considered goodparenting.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Really.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
Really it was not considered good parenting.
My mother always said I neverpraise my children, let others
praise them.
So she never praised us.
She never had a good word tosay about any of us because that
was the way she was raised.
Let others talk about you, wedon't brag.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
How about that?
You were so different with yourkids.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
It's called the power of negative modeling.
There was such a thing to besaid, but saying I'm not going
to be that way when I grow up.
I said it a thousand timesgrowing up.
So the negative modeling has apositive effect too.
It does.
It absolutely does Something tobounce off of to say, well, I
know, I'm not going to be thatway.
So you see, there were no badexperiences, as she said.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, and I live the same way.
Okay, good for you.
So I believe in that 100%.
Amy, you often talk about howdifferent you are from your mom,
but I really saw so manysimilarities in the book.
Neither of you do anythinghalfway, by the way successful
cake business and you've keptpivoting and following your

(31:21):
heart ever since.
Whether it was helping women ontheir health journey, supporting
women through menopause orbecoming a health coach, every
chapter of your life becamesomething that you like.

(31:41):
Invited people into your worldand you wanted to help them as
well.
You may have had different jobsthan your mom, but you both
kept growing and givingyourselves permission to evolve.
What would you say to someonewho feels stuck or scared to
make a change?
How do we trust that even thewrong turns are still leading us

(32:02):
to where we're meant to go?

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Yeah, you know, I think it's a little bit of what
we said before about gettingcomfortable, being uncomfortable
.
And so I run women's travel andthese women sign up,
potentially alone, usually aloneon these trips.
So they don't know me, theydon't know the other women,
right, they're nervous.
And so I say to them it's okayto be uncomfortable, you know,

(32:27):
to need like a little nudge,right?
I never push women to doanything, but what is the
alternative?
And that's the answer to yourquestion.
So I say to these women comealong with us, even if you're a
little bit nervous, try it.
What's the worst thing that canhappen?
You come home and you say, well, I'm not going to do that again
, or well, I didn't really lovethat, but what's the alternative
?
What's the alternative?

(32:50):
You're home.
How many days are you home?
How many days in the year areyou home?
Do you want to be home thosefour days, more, more?
Or do you want to come with usfor four days?
And we have all kinds of videotestimonials and written
testimonials of these women,every one of them saying I
wasn't really sure if I wantedto go.
It seemed kind of nervous.
I'm not with my friends.

(33:10):
I'm so glad I went.
I'm so glad I tried, I'm soglad I did it.
And so there's something aboutthe power of taking a risk, even
if it didn't turn out well.
There's something great aboutsaying I did that, I did that, I
went there, I tried that.
So, again, it could be small,medium or large.
I think that when people feelstuck, it may be because what
they're trying to do is too big.
It's too big, so maybe they'renot going to go join some

(33:33):
pickleball club because theydon't know pickleball and
they're nervous, or whatever.
Maybe they're not going to gojoin some bridge group.
You know, maybe that's too bigfor them, but maybe what they
can do is is make a list of 20people they know that they
haven't spoken to in a year ortwo, and they're just going to
once, a one person a week.
You know you have to start verysmall.
They're going to reach out tosomebody that they haven't

(33:56):
spoken to, just that.
Those are people they alreadyknow, and so I do encourage them
to start small and stack up thewins.
You know, I love that Stack upthe wins.
Little doesn't really matterwhat it is, and I think that the
other thing about midlife womenis a lot of them may still be
married or may not be marriedand may be divorced or whatever,

(34:17):
and their children feel veryresponsible for them, the women,
and so the more that they doit's like a gift to their
children, like saying I'm OK butactually doing things.
A gift to their children, likesaying I'm okay but actually
doing things.
One of the women that came to adinner that I ran said you know
her daughter who was livingwith her, who was in her
twenties, you know, finally, youknow.
The mother said what are wegoing to do this weekend,

(34:39):
daughter?
said mom like I love you, butyou need to get your own life.
And she started doing all thesethings and now she travels with
us.
She does all these things.
Now she goes to other groups,she does other things because
she thought she could do itRight.
Right, she thought that herchildren were relieved.
Okay, yeah, I could see thatFor her own happiness.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
The success of separating from your parents,
the success of learning to walkalone, the success of learning
to feed yourself, the success ofknowing you can make it in this
world on your own, thatsuccessful separation is
successful parenting.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
It can be hard sometimes to let those things go
as a parent, but it's also, youknow, it's thrilling at the
same time.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
But where is it written that any of this is
meant to be easy?

Speaker 1 (35:28):
It's not.
I just love how you just say itthe way it is this is just the
way it is.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
That's the people who have.
No, those are the people who,when they reach a great age,
have a long list of regrets intheir lives, of things they did
not do.
People do not regret the thingsthey do do.
They regret what they didn't do.
Yes, and if so, you thinkeverything had to be easy and
you took the easy road.

(35:55):
Remember Robert Frost the roadnot taken is the hard road.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
And you guys have absolutely taken the hard roads.
Gwen, I'd really love to pauseon one of the moments that
changed everything for you andwe kind of you talked a little
bit about it with your husbandwho he was so healthy and he was
so full of life and he wassuddenly diagnosed with brain

(36:21):
cancer and it was unexpected andone of those life shattering
moments that's hard to make anysense of.
And in the book you talk aboutnot getting lost and asking why
you know.
One of the lines that stuckwith me is, instead of asking
why, ask how am I going to dealwith it.

(36:42):
You can explain how that shiftgives you know.
You back a sense of strengthand purpose in your book.
You were so good at that.
Get past the why Get to the howSee?

Speaker 2 (36:56):
the point is that's a very childish idea to believe
that there's a reason foreverything.
It's a little kid saying whyDon't ask?
Why questions?
Okay, the things you might sayto yourself is why not?
Why not?
The sudden death comes in myfamily, comes in other families,
why not?

(37:17):
Bad luck comes in my family andthen deal with it as you must
to live through it.
But asking why?
You know people sometimes.
I found this very true with the9-11 families who were suddenly
catastrophically thrown intoanother planet of life with
their experience.
It was unbelievable.

(37:38):
You had to be there to knowwhat I'm saying.
It was a life-alteringexperience to stop asking why me
?
Why not me?
These men all went to work thatday saying I'll see you tonight
, honey, and not one of thefirefighter widows and I've
worked with hundreds of themever said to me I never worried

(38:00):
about my husband's work.
I never worried about his workbeing dangerous.
He was well-trained, he lovedhis work.
So maybe we all worry about thewrong things.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
Well, that's one of the lessons also.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Maybe we worry about all the wrong things in life.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Maybe we shouldn't worry at all you know, worrying
takes up too much time.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
It's counterproductive.
It doesn't do a thing for you.
It doesn't do a thing for you,but fill up a lot of space.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
It makes you lose sleep.
You know it really does rob youof other things in life.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
It's counterproductive, it's like
jealousy, it's like envyingother people's lives, some
things we do that do nothinggood for us.
What we do that are good for usis the doing of them.
You said something interestingway back.
You said you had a family inyour head that you imagined.
You did something about thefact that you didn't have a

(38:56):
father and your mother wasworking.
You helped keep yourself goingwith an imaginary family.
That was a good copingmechanism.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, it helped me through my imaginary family,
helped me through a lot.
Any family you're going to havenothing wrong with that.
It was absolutely true.
You know, like we said, I mean,even the hardest things in life
become what leads us to thenext chapter in our lives, and
those kinds of things reallymade me who I am today, as they
did you.

(39:25):
You know, gwen, you had degrees, you already had been a teacher
and had many life's experiences, but you happen to be in a
school again and you wrote apaper on a bereavement center.
And you wrote a paper on abereavement center and, of
course, of course, yourprofessor liked it.
And you got a phone call sayingnot only do we want you to open

(39:47):
the first one of the of itskind bereavement center, but we
want you to be the director.
You know to take such a hugeloss things that you've gone
through and dedicate yourself tohelping others who are grieving
.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
Well, that's not the way it works out.
The way it works out is thesethings fall into your path as
you're walking through life.
And this thing came out of myhead there were no courses in
social work school at that timeabout bereavement or grieving.
Trust me, there were no classesabout this, luckily.

(40:22):
Luckily, I had a creative partof me which I always had as a
kid, and I dreamed this thing up.
And then I had a director, salAmbrosino, who said I love the
idea, let's do it.
And I said why not?
So we did it and luckily, itcame out to be this huge.
It was such a need that it fellin your lap.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
But you know you did the work and that's why you were
in the right place at the righttime, because you were working
hard.
You wrote this paper.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
I had been widowed two years when I went to social
work school and part of myinternship.
The second year was you had tolead a group.
So I decided to do a group ofwidows because I had just been
widowed.
It was interesting to me andthe people who taught me how to
be a widow were the widowsthemselves.
I learned from those women howto be widowed.

(41:31):
I learned from men how to bewidowers.
I learned from mothers andfathers how to be a parent who
has a child die, because thosepeople were my teachers.
So I really feel it wasn't allmy hard work.
It was that I was in a placeand open to learning from other
people's experiences.
They were my teachers.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah.
I've often said if you want toheal yourself, help others.
But you put pain into purpose.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
I believe you have to make friends with pain.
There is no life without pain.
So if you're going to belimping, you might as well know
why you're limping, what causedthe pain that made your leg hurt
you, and get on with it.
You can walk with a limp.
You can walk with only one leg.
You know there are people whoski with only one leg.
You know there are people whoski with only one leg, people

(42:21):
who do remarkable things becausethey adapt to what they cannot
change.
Well, we might limp, but we'restill walking, that's right and
dancing there you go.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
you know what?
Nobody.
Nobody wants a crisis in theirlife, but, as you, it opens up
opportunities, and I guess thatthere is a time for being shut
down and allowing ourselves tofeel the depths of the loss at
times, but then there is a timefor us to get back up and use
what we are doing and goingthrough to help others.
Like you said, any action, anyaction almost always feels

(42:57):
better than standing still.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Now, if I might say, grieving is a lifelong process.
You don't get over the death ofa significant person.
You wouldn't get it into yourlife, so that, even though your
father died when you were 11,some part of your father was
still in your head.
There were things that youstill know.
I had a father.
It's not like you never had afather.

(43:21):
So that grief is something welive with all our lives because
we're having losses as we age.
I can't think of a worse lossthan losing your good looks and
your waist.
It's the body we have.
You have no place else to live.
When you think of it that way,if you can't have back your

(43:42):
26-year-old body, where are yougoing to go live?
Right, so make friends withthis new body.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Right.
One of the things I really loveabout both of you is that you
didn't wait until you had it allfigured out.
When you did things in life,when you didn't know exactly how
to to start a bereavementcenter and, amy, you didn't know
how to launch a cake business,like we talked a little bit
about earlier, or any othercoaching careers that you went
on to build, but you did itanyway, and it just shows that,

(44:10):
first, you're never too old tostart something.
Second, you have to giveyourself permission to pivot and
, third, you have to be willingto take that leap, even if you
don't know how, because that'show you learn and if you stay
open to learning while you'rebuilding success, you know it's
not just possible, it's probable.

(44:32):
So please talk more abouttaking that jump, even if we
doubt ourselves and don't have aclue what we're going to be
doing.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
Well, I mean, I'm a, I'm very much of a open the
parachute on the way down, kindof person.
So you know, I had the idea formy drive, your life program.
It was during COVID, so it wasvirtual.
I had the idea, I wrote theprogram and then I just found
the first eight women and I Ijust did it.
And then after the five youknow it was a six week program
and I thought after six weeksthat was the end of it.

(45:02):
But I realized that wasn't theend of it, that there was more.
So I just kept adding on to itas I was going and they knew
they were kind of the beta group.
You know what I mean?
I was very hopeful.
This is the first time I'mrunning it.
So I mean I, before you'regoing to start, forget it,
you'll never do anything.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
And speaking of COVID now, during COVID, our bridge
group, the whole senior centerclosed down, everything closed
down, schools closed down, and Isaid, being me, I'm too old to
die young, I'm not going to dothis, I'm not giving up bridge
and companionship.
So I had bridge people cominginto my apartment.

(45:40):
We all played bridge, we allhad a good time, nobody got sick
, nobody wore a mask and we'reall here to tell the tale of how
we got through COVID withoutlosing our cognitive ability,
our social skills, because wejust did it.
Nobody gave us permission to doit.
I said I'm going, just did it.
They're not going to give uspermission to do it.
I said I'm going to do it.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
Well, you didn't live afraid.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
If you're afraid, you're cowering in the closet
waiting for the bad guys to comeand get you.
More children die hiding underthe bed in the fire than those
who try to leap out a window.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Wow, you do have zingers, you do like.
You just come out with thesethings.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
I also.
I disagree with you to thepoint that I think you have it's
okay to be afraid and do itanyway.
I don't think it's.
Either you don't do it oryou're not afraid and you do it.
You can be afraid and you cantry to do it anyway.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Oh, so many things I do afraid.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
What I encourage women to do is you know what
have you got to lose?
And if not now, when?
I mean I started a business at60 because I thought what am I
waiting for?
Well, I'm 60.
Like, what am I waiting for?
And I think that that's reallyimportant that you know you can
start things.
You can try things.
If it doesn't work out, whocares?

Speaker 2 (46:58):
The thing we have to fear, said Franklin D Roosevelt,
is fear itself.
If we make fear bigger than itneeds to be, it cripples us.
It's okay to be afraid.
I'm not saying I haven't beenafraid and had clammy hands, but
I didn't and you didn't let itown us to the point where it
cripples us.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Because a lot of people feel if they're nervous
or anxious or fearful, theydon't do it.
And I'm saying recognize it.
Okay, I'm kind of nervous, I'ma little afraid of this, but do
it anyway.
And I think that a lot of usare raised to believe like, well
then, you know that's yourintuition and you know you got
to follow your gut.
You do have to follow your gut,but not if it's holding you
back, don't use it as an excuse.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Amy, I just want to talk a little bit about your.
You were 15 when your dadpassed away, and you know I had
lost mine when I was 11, as Isaid, and so I really understand

(48:03):
that sudden life altering lossas a kid and you mentioned that
you didn't realize how young 15was until your own kids reached
that age, and I, too, have donethe same thing with my kids when
they turned 11.
I was like, wow, I was reallyjust a kid, and it's amazing how
our minds freeze us in thosemoments in time and we think
differently of ourselves untilyou know we're older.
I also, too, had a difficulttime in that I had lost some

(48:25):
friendships at school because Ididn't know anyone else who had
lost a parent.
And that made it reallydifficult for my friends to
relate with me and me with them,and you described that time as
being very lonely.
How did you handle it and howdo you think that that
experience shaped your journey?

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Well, I mean, there wasn't a lot of options of how
to handle it.
If you're in a group of friendsand they just start doing
things without you, what are yougoing to do?
But what ended up happening wasthat I did develop two really
close friendships in high schoolthat I probably wouldn't have
sought out and who are stillfriends of mine today.

(49:06):
Okay, I do think that it's theold.
You know, when one door closes,a window opens, but you have to
be open to it.
So it's sort of like what mymother was saying.
I always say you know,opportunity is everywhere.
Are you going to take advantage?
So it's sort of like what mymother was saying.
I always say you know,opportunity is everywhere.
Are you going to take advantageof it?
But I knew that I neededfriends and I veered toward
these two.

(49:26):
You know high school girls thatI probably wouldn't have really
made the effort toward.
So it to me it just kind ofcomes back to what you can
control and what you can'tcontrol.
Right, you have to get throughthings, but you don't have to
get through it alone.
And so you know, I think we'rejust on the side.

(49:47):
I think groups of girls andgroup friendships are very
challenging for a lot of people.
It's definitely for me, and Idid better in high school with
what I call individual friends.
I didn't do well in a group.
It just wasn't.
It's just I didn't realize ittill I realized it, you know.
But I think the idea of beingwhat I say in the book and I
think it's what you're referringto is I say I was 15, but it

(50:11):
was the oldest I had ever been.
So I didn't know it was young,right, I was 15.
Like that's how old I had everbeen.
I think you don't realize howyoung you are until you get
older and look back.
That was when, right, and thatwas when, when each of my
children turned 15 and theirfather, my husband, was still
alive.

(50:31):
I would think, imagine what aloss like that would have done
to this child and look how youngthis child is at 15.
You can't always see it inyourself.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
It gives you a different perspective of who you
were.
Correct, right, yeah.
And you also talk about yourweight and you started.
You know why?
Why do you think that people goto food oftentimes after a
tragedy?

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Well, I think there's a lot of things out there that
you could go to.
So again, when I look back Isay, well, it, it food wasn't
the worst of the things I couldhave been going for, absolutely
Right.
But I think for me it's anumbing agent, right it's.
So you know, it's, I don't, Idon't, I don't.
I did a lot of reading when Iwas in college about this
because I was like still sort ofin it but a little bit past it.

(51:21):
But I think it's a comfort,like other people go toward
other things and it's readilyavailable.
And again, you don't evenrealize that you're doing it
till you've done it and you're40 pounds heavier and you're
like, oh my God, what have Idone?
And now it's just, it's veryhard to undo those habits it
makes you feel good?

(51:41):
Right, it's a feel good thing.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
I was a chubby kid because I was alone so much.
I am the thinnest I have everbeen.
Since I was maybe nine yearsold since I've become a real
grown up but my adolescent yearsI went to graduate school.
I weighed 150 pounds pounds.
I was square, not fat, buteating was a comfort, as Amy

(52:04):
said.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Very well, there were a lot worse things you could be
doing yeah, we, when somethinghappens, we try to find
something to comfort us.
So but again, you know youbecame a health coach, so you,
you turned what you went throughand you went into helping
others.
Tell me a little bit aboutwandering women.
You've talked, you've touchedon it, but what I really like

(52:27):
about that is because you know Ihave three.
Well, I have five kids, butthree of my kids have autism.
They're very special needs andthey have difficulty learning.
So last summer we went to 16states and I just believe in
exposure and even the schoolsays you know they're learning

(52:49):
and doing things because of thethings that you guys have done
and exposed them to.
So I mean, I think that that'sso important.
How important do you think itis to take our passions, like
you have done, and use them tobring people together to heal,
to strengthen and to help eachother grow?

Speaker 3 (53:07):
I mean, I'm a big fan of connections and community
for women and I think it'sreally important.
So I, because I had this Driveyour Life program and I was
doing it virtually somebody saidwould you do an in-person
retreat?
And I said okay, and I figuredout how to do it and that's how
the travel started.
And so then I was doing sort ofretreats that had a whole

(53:27):
coaching program woven throughit.
That's how it all started.
Could you just do women'stravel?
And you know, and I said Okay,and you know, then I started
doing that and I think that manywomen want to travel.
They don't have anyone totravel with or they don't want
to plan the trip or they'reafraid to do it, or they just
don't do it.

(53:47):
And then they hear about we dosmall group travel 15 women, 18
women.
I plan the trip, I go on thetrip for the most part.
So it's it's not some big, youknow, getting on a Greyhound bus
, it's all very small group.
We stay together, we all eatbreakfast, we do everything
together.
So cause women think how am Igoing to travel?
Who am I going to eat with?
Who am I going to sit with?

(54:08):
Right, so you have to you.
I try to look for the need andthere's a big need.
And women it's just crazy.
Women want to travel and they,they, they love having it
planned.
The women on my trip say welove this because we don't have
to worry about it.
And Amy does.
Amy will tell us where to go,amy knows what to do and I'm

(54:31):
like I should travel with Amy,like that's just so great for
them.
They love that.
They just that.
You know, women are usually theplanners in the family, so they
love that they don't have to doanything.
They literally show up.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
I just love that concept.
I just want to tell you areally funny quick story and
then I'll ask a few morequestions.
But when I was 12, and you talkabout this in your book,
because when you took a trip tothe Rockies and it hit me so
much because right after my dadpassed away, my mom said we're

(55:03):
going on this six week tripacross the country, we're going
to go West and we ended up inthe Rockies on Loveland Pass.
Oh my gosh, I don't remember aton about that trip, but I will
never forget that my mom's whiteknuckled grip, the drop to the

(55:29):
right of us with just like treesand no guardrail and cars going
faster than they should have.
And when I read that in yourbook I was just like, oh my gosh
, I did that too.
I mean, I just thought that wasso cool.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
You had a great mother that she did that and
didn't drive in herself.
You know we needed to get away.
We needed to Courage to do that.
That took a lot of guts for awoman at that time to get behind
the wheel of a car and crossthe Rockies just the two of us.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
My hat's off to your mother, yeah, and I also.
She kept saying look at this,look at this.
I'll tell you what I was doneat that age with all the trees,
all the mountains and everythingI would.
I had already seen it all and Iwas just like you in the book
and you kind of mentioned that Iwas reading my Nancy Drew books
and I was just had my head down.

(56:24):
And you know now when I take myvacations with my kids and
everything I'm doing, that I'mlike look, look, look.
Yeah, I very much felt thatpart of the book it brought.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
It took me back it never left you memories like
that.
Do not leave you they.
They become part of who?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
you are Now.
One of the lessons from yourbook that really touched me was
your very first one.
You can be parented by othersand, I'll be honest, I didn't
expect that to be your firstlesson and it stopped me in my
tracks because I was adopted.
All five of my kids are adopted, so it was incredibly personal

(57:01):
to me, and thank you for puttingwords to something that so many
of us carry quietly.
You shared that you reached apoint where you simply accepted
your mom for who she was, evenwith the hurt she caused.
Could you talk about what itmeant to truly just accept
people for where they are andwho they are, and if it helps

(57:24):
you in the healing process?

Speaker 2 (57:26):
There's no other way.
It's like not liking your bodyand I say well, where else are
you going to live If you're achild and you're living your
life?
And maybe you don't have themother or the father that you
saw in the movies or you saw insomebody else's house, but
they're the parents.
And then learning, looking backand learning about the lives

(57:49):
they live helps illuminate whatcreated in them even the fact
that they had the hope to haveother children, because they
didn't get much loving and theydidn't get much support and it
made them who they were.
Dr Frankel says after theHolocaust and the concentration
camps what doesn't kill youmakes you stronger, and I think

(58:13):
that is a profound saying If itdidn't kill us, it's going to
make us strong.
I guess there are people whocollapsed under the weight of
having poor parenting or noparenting or having a father die
when you're 11.
But the weight of that need notkill you, it can make you
stronger.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
I used to work in the jail system and help women who
had been through these similarthings.
I mean, you know, the Father'sDay cards just weren't going out
, the hurts that I would hearacross from me, you know, when I
was counseling with the womenand my heart really did go out
to them.
But I can remember one womansaying you know, I'm praying and

(58:54):
praying and nothing ishappening.
And I'm like, what are youdoing?
And nothing is happening.
And I'm like what are you doing?
You know we all have theability, no matter what happens
to us, to continue on and it'sgoing to hurt and sometimes it's
just one step at a time andit's only the step that you can
see right in front of you.
But you just have to do it Likeany true love land pass.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Like getting through.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Loveland Pass.
It is, it really is.
Oh my gosh, it really is.
How did you guys land on these25 lessons?
That's all, amy.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Yeah, so we started with a lot more and we reached
out to family and friends andpeople that know my mom, some of
our friends.
What are some of the lessonsthat you remember saying that?
You remember her saying so wehad a lot more, we had double
and we just sort of whittled itdown.
And then, you know, she talkedabout the lessons and then I did
, and we thought we were done.
I thought we were done with thebook and we were then moving
forward and my mother said youknow what?

(59:52):
I really think we need the storyto tie it together, cause
originally it was just thelessons and she was right.
So now, for those that don'tknow the book, there's 12
chapters and the beginning ofeach chapter is the memoir, is
in first person, is her tellingher story from when she was born
until now and what are thelessons that were learned during
that time, as we look backright.

(01:00:13):
So she gives her take on thelesson and then I give my take
on it, so it ended up where itreally needed to be and that was
actually her idea, and maybeyou'll have a second book now
because you've got more lessons.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
I don't know that we'll do a book.
We might do something else.
Maybe we'll do a movie.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
There you go, and the structure of the book is so
well done and it's so short thatI love each chapter where Gwen,
you have your words, whichtells your story, and then Amy,
your words, that tells yours,that you know goes along with
hers, and then the lessons after.
I mean it couldn't be better.
It's so well put together.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Thank you.
I wanted it to be an easy read.
I didn't want people to be like, oh, I've got to read this book
.
You know, I wanted there to bea story, which there is, and
people want to keep going to seewhat happens.
I wanted there to be content.
I also just created a wholecard deck to go with it.
That is yeah, I didn't bring itwith me, but it's beautiful

(01:01:17):
cards and each card has thelesson on one side and an action
step on the other side how toput that lesson into your life.
And then there's blanks at theend for you to add the lessons
that you grew up with.
So, you know, I think it's so,so important that it not be
onerous.
You know that people pick thebook up and they read it and

(01:01:38):
they put it down or whatever itmight be, and I love that.
You, in the email to us, saidthat you took notes.
I mean everything you said Ilove because we want people to
be able to incorporate some ofthese just a few, you know, of
these lessons into their lives,and that was the whole purpose
of writing it and why we'remarketing it is so we can get
into people's hands.
I mean, that's the whole pointof all that we're doing.

(01:01:58):
Why are we doing podcasts?
Why are we doing all thesethings?
Is so that more women and moremen and more kids can get this
book in their hands.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Well, I think I underlined just about almost
every sentence.
I love that and I've alreadyread it twice, so I mean that's
how good it is, and I don'tnormally do that, gwen.

(01:02:26):
I just want to ask you.
I mean, this is this was veryhard for me.
You know, living back in the9-11 times, I we watched it over
and over.
It did affect my brother in lawwho was in the Pentagon at the
time, but I can't imagine whatit was to see it.
What was that like for you?

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
You know, the interesting thing is I became
her youngest child, jessie.
I was 70, but I became agrandmother for the third time.
It was during 9-11 that I was70 years old and I drove back
from the Boston area to LongIsland, into this middle of this
horrific, catastrophic event,and I remember saying to myself

(01:03:04):
if I see one more beautifulyoung woman come into my office
who has four or five childrenwho she has to now raise by
herself, losing the man who wasthe love of her life, I am going
to scream.
And I said you're going toscream how about these women and
what they're going through?

(01:03:24):
So what we did, I did with themwas to work one situation at a
time, get to know each family asit was, and it was a remarkable
learning experience.
I am still in touch with so manyof the people I work with.
I used to call these women mynew daughters.
I had all these beautifuldaughters, all these

(01:03:48):
grandchildren, because being thegood parent was the best way to
deal with getting them throughthis.
There were just so many peoplewho were so affected by this
horrible, horrible event.
So the way you do it is youjust do it.
I kept one hours.
I worked seven days a week.
I stopped saying you're 70years old, you should be retired

(01:04:12):
.
I just kept going because itwas so urgent the need to see
these beautiful young lives thathad been so upended so suddenly
.
And so there you are.
They became the greatlaboratory of my learning.
I learned more from thosepeople than those families that
I could have ever learned fromall the courses and all the PhDs

(01:04:36):
in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Is happiness possible again with tragic loss like
that?
Do you think Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
You know, one of the things that most of these young
women and men learned was youcan love more than one person in
your life.
That's a fallacy.
After all, if any of you havemore than one child, you know
you love the first one.
You think you can't loveanother.
You have a second.
Guess what?
You love that one too.
And if you have a third, youlove that one too.

(01:05:01):
So our capacity to love peopleis infinite.
We go on and on loving more andmore people, and so most of
these people did learn that theycould love more than one person
, just as they did more than oneset of parents in their life.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Yeah, yeah.
When you're sitting across fromsomebody that is hurting that
deeply, from something thattragic, work is to walk along
and to see where is the personin this journey and people came

(01:05:44):
in various places.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
There were some women who came in who had no family
support whatsoever.
Hard as it is to believe.
There were some women who hadlots of family support.
So you went where they were,saw what they had, what was
holding them together, and youwalk alongside and let them know
you can share their pain, youcan cry with them, you can laugh

(01:06:09):
with them.
You just go on the journey withthem and so they're not alone.
Again, it's that old businessof we will be all right, we will
get through this.
Not a great deal of learninggoes into that, it's just being
on the journey with people.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
And one of the hardest things, I think, for a
lot of us to admit is that weneed help to bring someone in
from the outside, and it's asurrendering of so much.
What words can you say topeople who might feel like they
feel like a failure if they needhelp or that there are other
reasons why they don't want tolet others in to?

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
help.
Nobody has ever come into myoffice who was a happy person.
Believe me, nobody who's happycomes into an office like mine.
You have to be hurting enoughto say I need help.
It's a very painful thing.
Believe me, a person who's alltogether and has no problems

(01:07:03):
living their lives is notlooking for me.
I mean, I used to say aboutRose Kennedy I said Rose Kennedy
never went for grief counselingbecause her religion was so
strong.
It got her through the deathsof all her children.
She'd never be looking forsomeone like me because her
faith got her through.

(01:07:23):
Faith is not an everyday thing.
If you have that faith, youwouldn't need grief counseling,
except that it's part of theburden of life.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Do you have any words for those who are in the thick
of it, I mean the middle of loss?
I read that part of your bookwhen you're not just grieving
but also handling the logisticsof it all.
You know the paperwork, thesignatures, the legal steps.
It's always stuck with me how,in the final chapter of
someone's life, everythingbecomes so clinical.
How, in the final chapter ofsomeone's life, everything

(01:07:55):
becomes so clinical.
It's about declaring someoneincompetent, sorting out wills,
dnrs, making sure every I isdotted and every T is crossed,
and honestly, that part justbreaks my heart because it feels
so impersonal, like grief hasto wear a suit and carry a
clipboard.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
That is the death business.
There is a business about dying.
Death is very public and thereis a business with dying, with
property, with allocation, withcaring.
But the thing to understand isthat grief is the price we pay
for loving.
If you didn't love anybody, youwould not be sad and grieving
them.
So if you accept the fact thatyou were lucky enough to have

(01:08:33):
this wonderful marriage withthese wonderful children and
this wonderful life, then saythere was a price to be had for
having that and it's the priceyou pay for.
Loving is to experience loss.
It's part of life.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
I mean you do say that things just are.
I mean you just can't put thetoothpaste back in the tube.
You say you know, and some ofthese things just are.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
It humbles us.
We have to learn humility, thatwe are not in control very much
in our lives.
Learn to accept what comes yourway, the good and the bad you
know.
Very few people will say, oh,I'm so lucky, I have this
wonderful husband, I have thesewonderful children, but should
there be a loss?
They say, well, why me?
I say why are you in the firstplace?

(01:09:21):
Why do you have this wonderfulhusband and wonderful children?
Where'd you get off?
Thinking that that was yourentitlement in life.
So it's really a humilityaccepting that life is this way
it is.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
It is, it is it's all part of it it is.
All of your family is so strong,and even Amy, your daughter we
mentioned her earlier Jesse youdidn't even realize how much she
was struggling with dyslexiauntil her ACT scores came back,
and that just speaks again toyour family and the resiliency

(01:09:54):
that you guys have.
And you just swallow hard, youdig in, you just kept moving
forward.
You didn't sit in the struggleand you acted.
You got Jessie the help thatshe needed and now she's also.
She's dedicated her career toworking with people with
disabilities.
I just love how you guys giveback to where you are in life

(01:10:14):
that full circle moment for youguys.
How is Jessie doing right now?
What is she doing?

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
Boy, she would have loved to be on this podcast.
She actually, I told you wejust did a big event and she
flew up from Charlotte to Bostonto be there with us for this
book launch and she had neverseen any of these events and she
was the moderator and theaudience was asking her
questions and so she was sharingher perspective on all these

(01:10:41):
things, on resilience and movingforward and all this.
So she's doing great.
I mean she.
It was hard for her to acceptthat kind of a diagnosis, so
what was considered late and shedidn't want any help from the
school, but she did.
She needed extra time becauseshe had slow processing and that
, to her, wasn't who she was, sothat was really difficult.

(01:11:01):
She went to a very challengingschool and she did great there
and they didn't have a lot ofhelp for students with
disabilities and she started astudent run group for for
students with disabilities,because they didn't have it then
.
So you know, she is an activistof of her own creation.
Um, she works for two differentnonprofits.

(01:11:22):
She does bake sale.
She's, she's, she'sunbelievable because she, she
has seen action and she knowswhat you said before quoting us,
which is, you know, actionalways feels better, almost
always, than inaction.
But I think that you know shehas the biggest heart of the
three of us.
She is the most loving andgiving of you know, even

(01:11:45):
compared to us, and so you know.
Thank you for asking about her.
She's amazing.
She's the one that offered tobe in the book because when I'm
looking for examples, she saidare you going to talk about the
dyslexia diagnosis?
I don't know if you would wantthat.
You know I didn't feel aboutthat.
She said well, if it can helpsomebody else, if it can, you
know, if it can make likeanother parent saying huh, I

(01:12:07):
wonder why my kid is complainingabout reading when they never
had that problem before.
Or whatever yeah.
So, um, yeah, she is, uh, she'sa force, that, uh, that young
woman, she really is she's,she's a doer, and that's what we
think I said to you I was 70when she was born.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
So when she was about four or five, I took her out
for lunch and she said nana, youare wicked old, she's right, I
am wicked old, she's right, I amwicked old to be a grandmother
of a baby.
So she's always said it like itis.
She is a joy in a lot, and whathas made her who she is are the

(01:12:45):
pain she has suffered.
I really believe that that iswhat molds us, smooths over our
edges, makes us have a sense ofhumor.
When sometimes we want to beangry, it helps us to be humble
that we are not perfect beingseither.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
I say that all the time that I learn from the
harder times in my life morethan I do from the easy times.
I mean that's just what we do.
And the learning disabilities Ihave some, my kids have some,
and it's made us stronger.

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
I still can't add.
I have three degrees.
I'm going to spell or add yeah,how did you get where you are?
I say I have a phenomenalmemory.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
You know I wanted to go back to you for a minute
because you had something happento you at almost 90 when you
could have died.
Did that change you at allafter you got your cancer scare?

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
I would say this If you smoke for 70 years, you're
not surprised when the thoracicsurgeon says Mrs Borden, you
have lung cancer and you betterdo it right away because that
thing is red hot.
I went in there saying, well, Ismoked for 70 years, what can I
expect?
Then I walked out of there withhim saying you can count your

(01:14:06):
blessings.
You have the best immune systemin the world.
You have stage one.
It has never metastasized andI'm still alive.
I never was afraid.
I kind of thought that comeswith the territory.
You know I'm going to have lungcancer because I smoked all my
life.
But I got lucky and I walkedaway from it and it made me move
up here to be nearer to myfamily and my grandchildren.

(01:14:27):
So I see it again.
No bad experiences.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
I did learn that I did stop smoking at 86.
Real quick.
And you know what my aunt did?
My aunt, she did the same thing.
She quit too, but she alwayscarried a cigarette with her but
she never would smoke it.
Anyway, really quick, I promise.
I love that.
You say that life slows down at60s, 70s and you were getting
started now in your 90s.
Look at what you're doing.
I mean, that's just soincredible that you have not

(01:14:59):
stopped in your 90s.
I needed to say that to you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Thank you so much.
I'll only stop when I stop,when it's over.
It's going to be over.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
Amy, do you have a message to your mom on Mother's
Day?

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
for Mother's Day Well yeah, I mean, I say it in the
book.
I'm grateful that I have themother that I have, and she's
taught me a lot about the kindof mother that I wanted to be
and that I am.
And we were just saying that wethink that Mother's Day should
be every day, instead of onekind of a holiday.
Okay, our mothers every day.

(01:15:33):
If you're a mother, you're amother every day.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
And who's true mother is having a wonderful daughter
and son, our children.
You know the student makes theteacher look good.
So if your children turn out tobe wonderful human beings who
are high, achieving highaccomplishment, loving good
people, it makes you look like awonderful mother.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
Well, I think that you have been a wonderful mother
.
Just listening to you guys andwhat you guys have done, I just
think it's just beautiful whoyou are.
You guys are beautiful humans,and your daughter too.
Now the next generation, and Ijust want to thank you both so
much for being on Real Talk withTina and Anne.
It just meant so much to me toget to know you a little bit
more and to our listeners.

(01:16:18):
As usual, we will see you nexttime.