February 12, 2025 • 58 mins
What if the person who vowed to love and protect you was the very one orchestrating your pain? Join us on Real Talk with Tina and Ann as Ann sits down with Victoria Ellen, the courageous author of "Painting in the Rain: A True Story of Trickery and Triumph." Victoria shares her chilling journey of surviving domestic abuse at the hands of her former husband, Daryl—a charming facade that masked a controlling and dark nature. Together, we unravel the complex web of deception often hiding behind religious facades and the societal misconceptions that enable it.
Victoria's story is a poignant reminder of the insidious nature of narcissistic grooming and manipulation. We explore how her ex-husband's sociopathic tendencies were adeptly cloaked under the guise of charm and religiosity, creating an environment ripe for control and emotional turmoil. As Victoria recounts her own susceptibility to Daryl's influence, our discussion highlights the critical importance of recognizing red flags and the subtle, often overlooked signs of an abuser who conceals their true intentions.
Through Victoria's testimony, we are inspired by her resilience and strength in escaping such a toxic environment. We delve into the intricacies of mental and emotional control, the pain of realizing abuse extends to one's child, and the crucial role of supportive friends in breaking free from the cycle of abuse. This episode is a powerful testament to the endurance of the human spirit in the face of adversity and the urgent need for awareness and support for victims of abuse.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne and we have a verycourageous guest today.
Victoria Ellen, I've read yourbook and I was so upset for you
and also thrilled with you andyour kids throughout this entire
book.
You are so brave and you dideverything you could to help
(00:30):
your family.
Domestic abuse is often ignored, as we see in your book.
Child abuse is also one that somany look the other way, even
when all the evidence is rightin front of them.
The voiceless become moresilent.
I was a director of a batteredwoman's shelter.
I was abused.
(00:51):
My kids have been abused and Iadopted them and you know there
was a rape crisis centerattached to where I worked.
Also, and your story very muchresonates with me, you will be
heard today on this show, sothank you so much for trusting
us with your story.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, anne, forhaving me Really really happy to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
It's hard to put such a horrific story in writing,
I'm sure, for everyone to see,because you are basically and
even doing this podcast.
I mean it's a reliving and areliving and it has to take an
extra amount of bravery.
I'm sure to do it each andevery time.
You know this should be a movie.
(01:37):
I got to the end and I was likethis is a movie and I found
myself saying one more chapterbecause I wanted to find out
what happened and this story wasso unbelievable.
I just sat there most of thetime just shaking my head saying
are you kidding me?
So we're going to talk aboutdifferent kinds of domestic
abuse and look at child abuseand the system.
(02:00):
So you know, let's start at thebeginning.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah.
So the title is Painting in theRain.
A True Story of Trickery andTrine.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
You were very young when you met Daryl.
I was your future husband.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yes, I was.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And we've all been there.
You know, you look across theroom at somebody and your heart
kind of goes a little flutterand you're like, oh gosh, you
know they're so cute and youlike them and there's a
connection.
And people around you startsaying you know, oh, you know,
this guy isn't good for you.
And your mom actually said thatthere was darkness all around
(02:39):
him.
I mean, what in the world?
What were you thinking when shesaid that?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
It was wild.
My mother has always had justthis innate ability to it's like
the sixth sense, you know, ofher intuition.
God rest her soul.
Oh, your mom passed away.
Okay, she's writing this book.
She died of COVID, so I'mtelling you, like you want to
(03:05):
talk about trauma, I just gotthe gamut, you know, but it was
so powerful, anne, and it wasreally.
That's why I feel like it wassuch a spell that I was under
because about him, but I didn'theed that advice just kind of
(03:29):
shows you that deception isreally strong and it just
overtook me.
And, you know, instead of, like, listening to her and leaning
into people that love me, youknow, I was really really taken
by, like, like I say in the book, like this spell, and ended up
not listening to her adviceabout the darkness that
(03:51):
surrounded him.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, I think most young people do that.
You know our parents warn usand they're like what do they
know?
You know, I mean we all didthat.
And church can be deceivingbecause when you meet someone in
a church and they're likesinging God's praises and he's a
good person because he justseems like such a good godly man
(04:12):
.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So some of the worst people on this- planet are
hiding in the pews and they'reat the altar Praying on people
and it's the different pray.
It's P-R-E-Y, not P?
P-r-a-y.
You know what I mean.
And, um, I look at church kindof like an er right, all these
sick people coming in and tryingto get better, but you have to
remember that like noteverybody's on the same path as
(04:40):
you, you know.
So definitely the worst of theworst and you.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
That's where a lot of people who want to prey on
people can go, because so manypeople are.
They're broken.
You know, I used to be one ofthe chaplain people at the jail
for the women and I can tell you, I mean, they come in.
They're so broken and they'reso vulnerable and when you're in
(05:08):
that kind of a state and you'rein a church setting, somebody
can really take you down veryeasily.
It's scary.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, and you consider the mental health
disorders that we are up againstwith narcissistic personality
disorder, the fact that you knowwe're dealing with sociopaths
here.
I mean, these people are very,very ill and they are extremely
good at what they do, and sothey know how to read people,
and so if they think that you'reweak, if they think that you're
(05:37):
naive, if they think thatyou're a good person, they're
going to take advantage of thatand exploit your kindness and
your compassion and empathy.
They love to target you.
You have this big red target onyour back.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
And you were a young, innocent kid at the time.
I mean you wanted badly to dothe right thing so you weren't
looking for bad.
I mean you were afraid todisappoint and there were so
many changes and tragedies inyour young life, from abrupt
(06:09):
moves city to country, christianschool to public school and
your mom almost died.
I mean that was what happened.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
My mother was in a really horrible Jeep accident.
She had just dropped me off,actually for school, and I was
doing this carpool because itwas so far to get to that
private school and so we wouldcarpool, all these ticks and we
would go.
You know, one of the parentswould take us and she had just
dropped me off and it was asuper foggy morning and she
(06:34):
ended up not seeing a car thatwas stopped for a school bus on
the opposite side of the roadand so the fog was just so bad
and and she ended up flippingher Jeep multiple times and they
found her hanging upside downby her seatbelt, dead, and she
was out of body.
(06:54):
After life experiences and itwas, it was pretty wild and you
know she saw the light, all thethings.
I think that's probably anotherpodcast, another day.
But when she did end up likecoming back and breath, like
came back into her body, therewas a man there that had pulled
(07:15):
her cover down from her seatbeltand was with her and they ended
up care flighting her.
So you know I was really young,saw her in ICU and just you
know it was tragic, Very, verytraumatic.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And your dad almost died.
So after your mom's, you know,a friend asked you how that
affected you and you had noteven thought about how it
affected you.
And in the book you sayregarding all of this, that's
enough to make anyone fearloneliness and abandonment.
And I lost my dad when I was 11years old, so I understand that
(07:53):
fear of loneliness andabandonment and at a young age
it can be so encompassing andcan drain everything out of you.
Do you think that it directedyour life for a long time?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I do, I really do.
It's interesting because youknow, at that moment you're so
young you don't consider it.
Then I ended up being really ayoung adult, meeting Daryl, and
so I hadn't considered it then.
But you know, as I look back onmy life, you know the book was
very cathartic and I do thinkthat it did change me in a lot
(08:26):
of ways.
Oh sure, I mean reallydrastically.
And then, you know, consideringwriting this book when my mom I
actually found both my parentsincapacitated, with COVID and
I'm an only child, so they bothended up going, you know, into
ICU in the hospital and mymother didn't make it.
(08:46):
And so, you know, trying tolike unpack all of this, like
abandonment and being alone andbeing an only child, only
grandchild, I mean, there's justso much there and I think that
was one of the reasons and why Ifelt like God, like I can't
stop now.
I mean the whole reason why Istarted this was so that I could
help other people not feelalone, and now I feel so much
(09:11):
more alone.
So I really want to make sure Itry to bridge this gap with
connection, and thatvulnerability creates connection
.
I mean Brene Brown talks aboutthat in her books.
I truly believe that and I mean, look at you and I, we don't
even know each other.
We're not.
We're getting to know eachother today, but it's amazing
how this trauma and just thealone, abandonment, almost
(09:34):
feeling, does create that, thatbridge with people who don't
have, you know, don't have theconnection previously.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Right, and we weren't meant to be alone.
So you know we were meant forconnection.
Yeah, it's hard when ourparents go.
I mean it really is.
I mean, and you had such aclose relationship with both of
your parents, so you know I'm sosorry for your mom.
As I continue to read your book, I noticed that you had a
(10:03):
natural reaction to all of thisfeeling that in your life was
out of control.
And then you met Daryl in thischurch.
So how would you have describedhim before doubt entered in?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Oh, very charismatic, yeah, larger than life,
personality, easy to like.
You know, there's just somepeople my husband, he's easy to
love, you know, it's just like,he's just a lovable guy.
Daryl was easy to like.
(10:38):
It was like, oh, he's just gotthis big personality and he was
funny and he was very young andbuff and attractive and it was
like, wow, and I'm supersheltered, you know, raised in
the living room there, and hewas like wow, like, oh, this is
a dream, right Out of this world.
(10:59):
So, yeah, and you know,everybody seemed to like him.
I mean when they would meet him.
I mean, obviously, when you tryto, when you look at my family
and my friends and thenconnecting him with me, they
didn't like that.
But I mean when you just pullall those layers off and and you
look at him alone.
Yeah, it was just, you know,attractive, funny and a great
(11:24):
big personality.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, he could work a room.
There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yes, and he did in his 20s and his 30s and even
into his 40s.
I mean he was still working theroom.
I mean under all of the guises,right Under all.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Right, I was so surprised he would even enter in
, you know, to the courtroom.
That we'll talk about way later, but I mean just smiling and
just you know, hey, how's itgoing.
I was just like, oh my gosh,who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It's wild.
You know most people like yourfilter would kick in and you'd
be like I'm not going to actlike that, I've got to.
You know we're here for ahearing and not him I mean he
never.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
he never wore the shame or the blame or anything,
never, ever.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I don't think he even has the capacity to be really
frank with you, and the reason Ithink that is because, like
most of us are not the majorityof population, we're not
sociopaths, right?
We?
Have like empathy andcompassion and we know how to
read a room and you have socialawareness and you know you just
tread softly and he reallydidn't have that ability.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
If he did, he fought it, you know, tooth and nail,
because he wasn't going to showit by any means.
And another part of hispersonality is that he was so
convincing.
I mean, he used God often too,and I thought that that was
horrible.
He said to you that God toldhim that you were supposed to be
his wife.
So here is what seemed likethis wonderful young man who was
.
You know, he seemed like it, atthe same time putting very
subtle clues out there to who hereally was, the same time
(13:07):
putting very subtle clues outthere to who he really was.
So you know, he and his family.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
They were a little off.
Absolutely, they absolutelywere.
And my mom was calling theseshots.
It was wild.
She was like, oh, this ishappening, this is happening and
I'm like no, I'm like in La LaLand, I don't see any of it.
When you think about your ownmental health and you are in
your own emotional well-being,it's funny I say this in the
(13:32):
book and I often repeat it thatI can tell where I was at
mentally and emotionally in mywell-being by the people that I
was dating and so I wouldattract, you could attract
people you know it was like amagnet that were also like not
well, you know, masking it orcovering it up and using God, no
(13:54):
less, which I mean.
I just feel like there's aspecial place for people that
want to use God to prey onpeople.
I can't believe that he wasdoing this for so long under the
radar.
And, to your point, utilizingGod, I mean God will not be
mocked.
That's all I can say.
(14:15):
So you know what I mean.
His vengeance, he will have hisvengeance.
But for me personally, I was sonaive and I was so emotionally
just stunted that if and whensomeone like him says to me oh
my God, you're supposed to be mywife.
God told me, but you'resupposed to be my wife.
I mean, wow, like I was justlike oh, this is wonderful,
(14:39):
because I didn't.
I I didn't know if anybodywould ever love me because I had
so many issues.
You know what I mean.
So I'm not good enough foranything.
And this.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Well, you thought that he would be hiding
something.
I mean, you know, when you'regetting to know people, you're
talking about your siblings,your parents, you're you know,
you're telling all the thingsabout your life, and he wasn't
telling you those things.
I mean, as you were asking himquestions and he just kept
denying and deflecting aboutdifferent things that you would
(15:12):
ask him about.
So that said a lot about hispersonality too.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Absolutely, and that's something that I would
give as just kind of a just alittle nugget for people if they
have a takeaway from today'sshow.
You know, if you feel likethere are red flags or people
are hiding things, I mean thereis no reason to hide birthdates,
there's no reason to hideanniversaries, there's no reason
(15:37):
to hide where you work.
I mean these are normal thingsthat, unless you're hiding
something, it's normalconversation.
Oh, what's your birthday?
Oh, mine's June.
Oh, my gosh, that's awesome.
Mine's a June too.
What day?
Like you know, where'd yougraduate?
These types of things, thoseare normal questions and if
people are hiding things, thenthere's a reason why they're
hiding it.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean we'll get into it, buthe was a master at this.
A master, you know.
I always say that if there's anabuser in the room and there's
somebody that's vulnerable,there could be a thousand people
in there they will find thatperson.
(16:18):
And you said that the liondoesn't go after the strongest
gazelle, he goes after the onewith the broken leg.
That was me, you said.
And you said you didn't realizethat evil will seek you out and
will set up a trap to destroyyour life.
I mean, what was happening?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
It's wild.
I mean, I never thought that Iwas.
I never thought much of myself,okay.
So there's that.
Yeah, we just all can savespace for that, and we just all
(17:02):
can save space for that.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
I mean, I know a lot of people feel that way, but I
feel like you have to believe ingood and evil or my story just
doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Oh my gosh, it's all through your book, yeah, and so.
And it's very real.
I think it is, I truly believethat it is.
But I believe that you know theevil was waiting and there was
a plan, just like I feel likeyou know God has a plan for all
of our lives when we're born.
I feel like there's a plan anda purpose for all of us and you
can choose good or you canchoose evil, but I feel like
(17:29):
evil was very present.
And now that I'm a strongerperson, I know that my calling
is really great and that I'msupposed to really be kind of
networking and using my voice ina really, really big way.
And so now it makes sense torealize like, oh, back then
there was a plan to silence me,there was a plan to try to stop
(17:52):
me and basically to abort mymission, silence me, there was a
plan to try to stop me andbasically to abort my mission.
And that's really how I feel.
Nobody ever changed my mind,just simply because I've been
through 20 plus years of hell onearth with this man and now,
like being able to see from theother side what was going on,
really, you can't really denythat there was something at play
(18:16):
here to destroy me.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
One of my favorite ways that he was described in
the book was a narcissistic wordsalad and I was just like, oh
my gosh, that is perfect.
I actually wrote it down thatis perfect.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I actually wrote it down.
You can't make sense of it.
You're like what did they justsay?
You know?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, the more you talked about him in the book, I
put one word down on a piece ofpaper grooming.
(19:08):
He was a master groomer.
I went to Rainn's website,R-A-I-N-N.
Grooming is a tool that abusersuse to gain access to a
potential victim, coerce them toagree to the abuse and reduce
the risk of being caught.
I've been groomed.
I have been groomed by someoneand you don't see it coming, and
it's an absolute horrible thingto have happen to you.
They're making you think thatyou are special, but they're
gradually luring you into thisworld of horror 100%.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
That definition nailed it, anne.
I mean I can't echo mysentiments more about how
accurate that really is.
And I was being groomed.
As a matter of fact, all of hisvictims were being groomed.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Absolutely, oh yeah, in a really scary way.
So here you are with this manand it's like you're in a
tornado, and then, all of asudden, your relationship takes
a much deeper turn because youguys are now permanently
connected.
So what happens?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah.
So I ended up getting pregnantwith my son and in my mind I
needed to make it right and Iwasn't convinced that I should
marry him.
So over the course of thosethree trimesters, while I was
pregnant, it was like I was withDaryl.
(20:29):
I'd broken up with Daryl secondtrimester and then I was back
with Daryl in the thirdtrimester.
So I'm starting to be able tosee things and see clearly.
But then he started all of thelove bombing, sending me flowers
and sending me gifts and howmuch he loved me and he wanted
to be an amazing father and awonderful husband.
(20:51):
And all of the empty promisesand the love bombing just
overwhelmed me and I ended upgetting married just a few short
days before I was due moving toa new city, a new home, being
married and a new mom all withina nice whirlwind of about 10
days.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was 10 days.
Oh my gosh, that's so much.
I mean, you just described thecycle of violence and we used to
talk I used to do trainings atthe Battered Woman's Shelter for
volunteers and we would put upthe cycle of violence and that's
(21:32):
exactly what would happen.
I mean, they would be sowonderful, they would lure you
in, and then all these thingswould start happening and maybe
some abuse would happen.
That was like wait what is,wait a second, and then they
would come with all these oh Ilove you's and the roses and
everything, and the honeymoonphase would last for a period of
(21:52):
time and then it would all goagain.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
That's it.
And you know it's funny becausein the moment it feels
chivalrous, like, oh, wow, likeyou want me to quit my job
because you want to take care ofme so I don't have to work.
Oh, that's so kind of you.
No, it's so he can control you,so he can do everything you do
control your money, controlwhere you spend money, control
(22:17):
when you leave the house,control every single moment of
your life.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, the control and manipulation were two words
that you used often in the book.
And here is this man that is soamazing to the world, but you
are seeing him as someone who isquite scary old.
But you are seeing him assomeone who is quite scary so
they can act so innocent, likewhat?
What did I do and make you feellike you're crazy?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, that's the gaslighting.
So anytime you startquestioning, then they
completely flip the script anduse what you just said the
manipulation.
What is wrong with you?
Why are you acting like this?
After all, I've done for you, Iworked so you can stay at home
with our baby, like you know,and it's gosh unbelievable
(23:06):
really it really is, and his momand dad were thrilled that you
guys were getting married.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I mean they belong together.
I mean that family.
They were really something else.
But one of the things that Isaw was that you were hoping
constantly well, maybe when thebaby is born this will happen.
You know he'll finally be therefor me and be there for us, and
you know that type of thing.
(23:32):
But it just kept getting worseand worse.
And you gave an example.
I could not believe this.
It was your birthday, you hadjust had a C-section and what?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
He schedules a birthday trip I'm using air
quotes for those of you who arelistening For me and schedules a
birthday weekend away.
Now, mind you, my son was bornthe fourth day of January and my
birthday is in February.
Okay, I had a C-section afterlaboring for 18 hours, so I mean
(24:08):
, it was just like horrendous.
And he schedules a birthdaytrip at a ski lodge, away from
my newborn and at a ski lodge.
I mean, how much more selfishcan you be, ann?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I just read that and I just could not believe that he
did that.
I mean, I had to have ahysterectomy years ago and so it
was kind of like a C-section, Iwould say back then, that's how
they used to do it.
And oh my gosh, there is no way.
There's just no way.
I can't believe that he did.
He never thought of you guys.
(24:45):
He never thought of anybody buthimself.
So, yeah, yeah, Well, hecontrolled every move of you
guys and you had to stay at yourparents' house where you
basically were monitored 24-7.
He was in control of where youwent and he wouldn't let you go
anywhere without him.
Were you allowed to have arelationship with your family?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, so I just want to make sure I clarify that I
would have to stay at hisparents' house.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, I thought I said that I'm sorry have to stay at
his parents' house.
Yes, I thought I said that I'msorry that you stayed at his
parents' house.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
His parents' house, and he did.
He monitored my every move.
I wasn't allowed to open thecurtains.
The blinds, I mean, had to beshut at all times.
I wasn't allowed to leave thehouse without permission.
Where do you need to go anyway?
I mean, you don't have a joband you're supposed to be taking
care of our newborn, so wheredo you need to go?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
You know if.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I wanted to go to the grocery, it was like absolutely
not.
And that just continued toratchet up over time.
And then it's just, you know,the taking of my keys, hiding my
not letting me go.
It's just, I mean, so muchcontrol, oh my God, it was
unbelievable.
(26:00):
You're right.
Yeah, every move, every singlemove, was controlled.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
You know, when a woman and I think he was
starting to think, you know,suspect that you were going to
leave and that was why he wasdoing that.
And when somebody gets to thepoint where they're thinking
that the men or you know,whoever is abusing the other
person, is starting to up theirgame too.
So I mean the moving of thekeys and just starting to ask
(26:30):
you you know, he always wantedto know where you were going and
then he would be like, oh no,I'll go to the store instead of
you.
Or he would go away, say he wasgoing away for two hours and
come back in 15 minutes.
I mean that always had to keepyou on your toes.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
It does.
It's like your nervous systemis constantly on high alert
because for one second you'relike, oh my God, thank God he's
leaving, I've got two hours ofpeace and I can just sit here
and like, just try to breatheand like get myself together,
you know, and try to make senseof like this crazy life that I'm
(27:07):
living.
And then him coming back in 15minutes after he said he'd be
gone two hours, it was like oh.
Back in 15 minutes after hesaid he'd be gone two hours, it
was like oh.
So just to let you know, you'renot in control of your life.
You don't get to play in thenext two hours.
I say when you can rest.
I say if you can rest, I sayhow long you'll rest.
So yeah, you're constantly in astate of fight or flight.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
You know let's talk about this credit cards and the
money and where this story goeswith his need to impress.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
So Daryl was very consumed with anything that was
materialistic, so he wanted andalso perception.
Let me just say that Rightright could portray that he was
(28:03):
successful and he drove anexpensive car and we lived in a
nice home and we had expensiveclothing or whatever it was then
it was.
People would perceive me assuccessful and if people
perceive you a certain way, thenhe could basically create this
(28:25):
formula where if I looksuccessful and I play the part
of a successful person, thenI'll attract more money and more
relationships of people whohave money and then I'll be at
my disposal, have more access tofunds so that I can utilize
that to fund my lifestyle.
And so he would drive ourfriends' cars, because he was
really close with these peopleand he was young and, like I
(28:47):
said, you know he just had this.
You know forked tongue.
You know he just could.
He was so manipulative and hecould just sway people into
doing whatever he wanted.
So he's driving Dodge Vipersand he's driving Hummers and
he's driving these expensivelike racing BMWs and all these
cars that just cost anexorbitant amount of money.
Meanwhile we can't even affordto buy our groceries, and so he
(29:12):
would take my credit cards andbuy groceries and pay the
electric bill, and pay the waterbill and buy clothing and
whatever he wanted, and put itall on the credit cards.
Because I actually had credit,because my mom taught me how to
manage money when I was growingup and I had a savings account
and a checkbook, and so he justwanted his name on everything.
(29:35):
And of course we're married.
I have to be submitted to myhusband, and aren't you going to
be a good wife?
And don't you know what God'sWord says about?
A wife should submit to herhusband.
And so then he used the word tojust beat me over the head and
it was like well, this is whatthe Bible says, and if you're
not a good Christian, you're notgoing to obey the Bible.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And it's like oh, you know, in the battered women's
shelter that was the word andthe Christian women would come
in and they felt so awful.
They really believed that theywere going against God and it
was beat into them not just bythe husband but also by the
(30:14):
church, because they needed tolisten to him and do what the
husband said.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
That's exactly right, and you got to think about how
we program our minds right.
Repetition over and over, and,over and, over and over again.
You're being told that you aregoing against God, not going
against man, because this personis supposed to be like,
(30:40):
operating like with the, youknow, with God as his head.
So if he's submitted to God andyou're submitted to him, then,
oh my gosh, you don't want to goagainst God.
And it's such a manipulation ofwhat the Bible even is.
So if you don't know anythingabout the Bible, then you would
be like who would want to haveanything to do with God anyway,
(31:01):
because this is like a horriblelife.
But the problem is none of itwas actually used correctly.
It was all manipulation andcontrol for selfish gains so
that they can get what they want, which is more control and
being able to just have peopleas pawns, and so it was a sick
vicious cycle that I was stuckin and then finally being able
(31:23):
to come out of that and youstart to slowly come out of that
fog.
You are under the spell and youcan't even think clearly
because you have beenbrainwashed.
It's a cult.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, it really is.
And plus, he was beating youdown all the time.
So I mean your mental andemotional state was so low.
He wouldn't even let you leavethe house without sweats, and I
mean with sweats on or somethinglike that.
I mean you had to look perfectat all times, and if you didn't,
he would put you down, and thenhe wouldn't even let you cry.
(31:56):
So you had this thing where, Imean, he said that you were
actually pitiful and he put youdown if you had emotion.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Correct, and that's the other thing.
They want to completelydesensitize you and then berate
you when you are down.
And you're exactly right.
When you're constantly beingtold you know that you're not
good enough and you're notskinny enough and you're not
pretty enough.
And you know, if you don't haveon makeup, then you're not
pretty, and if your hair's upyou don't really look great
(32:29):
because you don't really have avery strong jawline to be able
to wear your hair up.
You should always wear yourhair down and just like those
little digs constantly over andover.
And then you know, if you readthe book, you'll understand he
was really big intoweightlifting and so it was all
about the physique and so itwasn't just the money, it was
(32:50):
like the strong presence of himbeing like I'm strong, I'm
powerful, I've got this buffbody.
Look how put together I am andeverybody wants me.
You know it's just constant andyou can't even come up for air.
You're literally drowning allthe time.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
And he also you kind of mentioned this a little bit
ago.
I mean, he kept you literallyin the dark, literally, and you
even got in trouble for likelifting up the blinds.
You know, I don't know whatthat was.
Even at his parents' house theywere that way.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
What are you doing in your house that you can't open
the blinds, that you can't havethe drapes open on the windows
or that you can't have thewindows open?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Right, right right.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
What are you doing in there?
I mean, it's the wildest thing.
It's so funny.
We just built a house.
It's a year ago this month.
I don't have any drapes on.
I mean, this is my office.
There aren't drapes.
Even in here, in our livingroom, there are no drapes.
There are no blinds.
Front door big big door.
I'm like let the light in nomore darkness.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Exactly, and along with that, we touched on this,
too, a little bit.
But the crazy making that heput into you with this
narcissism.
This really hit me.
When, for anybody who's beenabused, you say how scary it is
to realize that you are livingwith someone you don't even know
and how they were able to lieto everyone and have this secret
(34:24):
life which you still didn'tknow at this time.
But the gaslighting and livingwith a stranger who you were
married to, that you don't evenknow at all and you say Daryl
would be gaslighting you, andthen you talk about how Daryl
would be physically restrainingyou.
He physically restrained youand I found it interesting that
(34:49):
he turned it around on you andhe's like I'm trying to protect
you from hurting yourself.
That is terrifying how someonecan mess with your mind so much
and be like wait, I'm helpingyou, but I'll tell you I loved
how you said you're notprotecting me, you're
controlling me.
I was like, yeah, you go, youknow, but he comes back with
(35:15):
this is I mean?
This was just crazy.
There is this thing that hesaid.
He turned it back on you andsaid that he was worried about
your mental state.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Absolutely, and this is just another play in the
playbook of the narcissist.
They try to make you thinkyou're crazy.
They switch everything up onyou constantly and then they do
question your mental health.
Maybe you should, you know,really examine your heart and
(35:45):
your mind, because a goodChristian woman would never act
like this.
She would never question.
And you know, I was alreadyprogrammed for the good girl,
right.
I was already like all I everwanted to do was to honor God
with my life.
I just wanted to be a goodperson.
I just wanted to be a goodperson.
I just wanted to be a good girl.
(36:06):
So when you've already got thatin your mind, as a good girl
submits, a good girl does whatshe's told.
A good girl is a people pleaser.
A good girl doesn't go againsther husband, she honors her
husband and she submits.
I mean you've already got allthis programming and so you do
(36:28):
feel like you're going crazy.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
And you wore the shame.
I mean, you really felt likeyou were standing before God
with all this shame.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You know it's interesting.
Shame beat the hell out of me.
I say that all the time.
It really did.
And if you don't know whatshame is, it's basically like
this feeling where you reallycan't even lift your head.
You walk where you feel likethis heaviness is on you.
(37:04):
It's like this heavy cape andyou're carrying this burden and
your head is just constantlydown because you don't feel like
you're good enough and youdon't feel like you're smart
enough and you don't feel likeyou qualify for anything because
of all these things that youhaven't done right, and that's
your track record, and yourtrack record sucks.
And so what are you going to donow?
You've left your entire familyto run off with this man who
(37:26):
ends up being a loser and anabuser, and so now what are you
going to do?
You can't go back, so shame isjust eating me alive.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Right Gosh, I felt so bad for you.
I just wanted to come intothose pages and be like you're
fine.
I mean, I just wanted to likegive you a hug.
I felt so awful for all theshame and he felt none, by the
way.
So there was that.
So I want to touch a little bitmore.
(37:56):
I mean, this is harder.
The abuse continued and thehardest thing in our lives as a
parent is to realize that nowyour child is being hurt.
You started suspecting thatyour son at this time was being
hurt.
You started seeing behaviorswith your child that made you
(38:18):
really believe this.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yes, I did.
And you know, all through beingmarried to Daryl, like I said,
the Bible was the be-all andend-all, and so in his mind,
that scripture that says sparethe rod, spoil the child, was
constant.
(38:42):
And so, you know, ryland was soyoung and at that time I didn't
know what was going on withRyland, but Ryland was
constantly crying, constantlyscreaming, inconsolable at all
times and could not regulateever, and so he, just he was a
(39:03):
mess all the time and I didn'tknow what I didn't know.
Now, looking back, I know thathe was being abused sexually and
physically, emotionally,mentally, everything he endured,
but we didn't know what waswrong with him and he was
constantly crying.
And so Daryl's response to thatis well, you know, you've got
to whip him.
And so he would leave bruiseson him because he had whipped
(39:29):
him so hard.
And I mean we're talking abouta one-year-old, he was still in
diapers.
I mean there's no reason why hewould have needed to be, you
know, no, no, no.
But you can't try to use logicor reason with the narcissist
because you're going to losethat game every single day.
And then the constant, with megetting in the middle of him and
(39:52):
Ryland and trying to stop thatand, of course, creating a
horrible son and my son'sgrowing up in this horrible,
violent life and me just tryingat that point to just be like,
hey, don't you have somewhere togo?
Like, yeah, go, that's fine,we're here.
And then just really justtrying at that point to just be
like, hey, don't you havesomewhere to go?
Like, yeah, go, that's fine,we're here.
And then just really justtrying to make him continue to
be gone because I didn't wanthim around, because I didn't
(40:13):
want him to abuse us while hewas there.
So, yeah, it was horrific, butthe behavior that he was
displaying ultimately startedleading me to believe that he
was also being sexually abused.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
His mom made a reference that gave me the
chills.
She said that you could hidethe abuse, that things could be
happening and nobody see it.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yep'll tell you, looking back on all of that
writing this book, it was one ofthe farthest chapters I had to
get through and, to be reallyhonest with you, oh I I bet um,
and janice heisel is myco-author.
I actually hired her initially.
It was like as a ghost writer,um, but we ended up.
(41:06):
Can you imagine telling yourlife story to someone over the
course of a year and a half?
I mean, you become really closeand we became very good friends
and I tasked her with somethings like this stuff, because
I couldn't go through all of thefiles again and again and again
and again to pull up, like allthe documentation for Asian
(41:27):
children's services, a lot ofthose things, and even this
question about his mother, evenyou know, basically forewarning
me, and it was like she wassaying like, oh, this could
happen, so you have to be socareful.
That's why we don't let anybodyelse watch our kids.
No, the reason why you don'tlet other people watch your kids
is because you're abusing them,and then if other people were
(41:49):
to see them, then they wouldknow that they were being abused
.
So very sick, very sick, and Imean total, total perpetrator.
So what do?
Speaker 1 (41:59):
you do?
Do you believe that she hadknowledge of everything that was
happening?
Speaker 2 (42:04):
I do.
That's my belief.
There's no way to prove thatRight.
I do believe she did.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It almost felt in those statements that she said
that she was a part of it.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Oh, I believe.
Oh, she was, she was, shewasn't, yeah, she wasn't yeah.
And you know what's interesting, I was scared to death because
I had an attorney that I hiredto go through the book, because
when you are involved with thismany court cases and for this
extended period of time, it'shard, because I mean, you know
(42:39):
this Anne having the batteredwomen's shelter, but you really
have to be careful what you saybecause of you know a
declamation lawsuit or what hebrought against you.
She is deceased, so I don'thave to worry about any of that,
but she was absolutely one ofthe named abusers and so you
(43:01):
know it's very difficult becausethis person that's saying, hey,
you need to keep your kids safe, is actually the person that's
preying on your child.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Oh my gosh, that's so scary.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
So scary.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And it's the people who are close to your child who
is hurting them.
So how messed up is that, as akid, who's hurting them?
So how messed up is that, as akid?
The people that are supposed tobe protecting you when they're
you know, when they're watchinghim are the ones who are
actually hurting him.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Well, and I've learned through therapy over the
years, and this is an excellentpoint.
I was so confused because Icouldn't understand why my son
would say that he missed his job, like when he wasn't around.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I was so completely confused because I thought you
know that you're being abused byhim and all of these people in
this family and you miss them.
But it's in our DNA, right,it's in our person to want to be
connected to our parents.
We want to be loved by ourparents.
(44:09):
We miss our parents.
I mean, there's things thatpeople have endured from their
parents that are justunspeakable, but they still miss
them because they miss whatthey want to have with that
person.
And that's what's so perverseabout all of it, because he did
miss his dad, even though hisdad was a perpetrator and an
(44:32):
abuser.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah, I mean, it's a real thing that happens to a lot
of people.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'm not sure why that happens, but I think when
people hurt us, it hurts us sodeeply in our emotions are so
connected and it like, ifthere's hate, there's love, if
there's, you know, and I thinkthat it just kind of triggers
all of that within us and itcreates some kind of a
(45:14):
connection that's definitelyunhealthy 100%.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
There's soul ties there, for sure.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Now, in a point in your book you start talking
about friends who started to seethings.
What did you feel about?
I think it was Meredith whonoticed the bruises, and then
you also had somebody thatoffered to marry you.
I mean, they wanted to rescueyou.
So you had friends who reallywanted to help.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I really did.
I had a great group of friendsthat I don't know.
I still feel like, wow, I'm soblessed to have people like that
in my life that loved me enoughto.
I mean, when I was pregnantwith Ryland and I was going
through that phase of I don'tknow if I should marry him or
(46:03):
not, and my friend was like ohmy gosh, like I would love to
marry you, like I would takecare of you and this baby, like
absolutely.
And Meredith, she was so closeto me.
When I did finally go back towork she was helping with Ryland
when I was gone and she did seethe bruises on Ryland and
(46:24):
questioned me about it.
So then it was like it's almostlike I don't know how to say
this but when you are the personwho is living such a secret and
a lie and you're trying tocontrol what other people know
about you and your, or oncesomeone knows, it's almost like
a relief.
(46:45):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
No sure.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Pressure cooker and you know, the top or the steam
starts letting the steam off.
It's kind of like it's startingto release some of that,
because you don't have to bottleall that up inside of me.
We're like, oh my God, somebodyelse knows.
And they think it's crazy too,and they know it's wrong too,
and I'm not losing my mind, I'mnot the crazy one.
(47:09):
There's somebody crazy here,but it's not me, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, it starts validating what you're seeing,
because you really do feel crazyat that point because
everything that's happeningyou're feeling isn't really
happening, because they'retelling you.
He's telling you it's notreally happening really
happening because they'retelling you.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
he's telling you it's not really happening.
So that's his own narrative.
He's writing the story, youknow, writing what he wants you
to believe.
Do you think he believed hislies?
I think he got to a point wherehe did I do.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Okay, I really wondered that because he got to
so convincing I mean, he wasalways convincing, but he
included so many differentpeople in this like web of lies
I started wondering if heactually believed him.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
I think he did.
I mean, nobody will ever know,but I believe that he started
just going down that trail ofthis really is reality, even
though he was creating it as hewent of this really is reality,
even though he was creating itas he went.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I mean, even his hairdresser was involved in a
way, because I mean he even liedthat his hair was straight.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Don't even think you'd need to lie about Anne,
like it's so wild.
That's why he would lie, evenif it served him better to tell
the truth, I mean yeah, that'swhat a narcissist is, for sure.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah, so I started looking at one of the worst
times under his control with youno electricity, no water.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Nope and electric.
The garage door won't go upbecause they can't get in.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
We don't have electric oh my gosh, you
couldn't even bathe your sonnope, I had to go to his parents
house again.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Convenient, because no one else could know that we
didn't have electric or waterright, right.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
I just don't understand.
I mean, he would do somethingso outlandish too, and one of
the things that he would get youfor is because you would say a
swear word.
You know, I mean he didsomething so crazy and then turn
it on you and say, but look atyou.
You swore.
I mean you're a horrible person, because you said hell.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah, that's right, because you said hell.
Yeah, that's right.
It's the self-righteousness ofthe narcissist that really is so
unreal, like I feel like that'sjust part of.
They have to keep this up, keepthis going, and they have to
find anything and everythingthat you do to try to make you
look, look bad, becauseotherwise you're going to be on
(49:46):
to them and so they have to beatyou down.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Okay.
It reaches a point in the storywhere your son comes over and
hugs you, and I think thatsomething happened inside of you
when that happened.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, I was at that time, I believe, pregnant with
Mercedes, my daughter.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
It was just this moment where I couldn't believe
that I'm a two-year-old who'sconsoling me because I'm so
emotional and I didn't want himto grow up with such dysfunction
Right and in my mind.
I had no idea how I was goingto escape, couldn't even begin
to put the pieces together of astrategy or a plan.
(50:31):
I just knew I'm going to getout of here and I'm not going to
make him endure this anymore.
This was prior.
I just want to clarify this isprior to knowing about the
sexual abuse and I did not know.
You know what?
Oh, absolutely.
So when that started coming out, then, you know, it kind of
(50:54):
ratcheted up the time, thetimeframe for me to be able to
escape.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Yeah, I mean from the beginning of the story all the
way through to the end.
It was a completely differentstory.
I mean watching you grow andthe strength and the ability to
really fight for yourself andyour family was such a beautiful
woven story within the story.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
One of the things that happened is you ended up
with a book in your hand.
If I remember right Dr Wagner,I think it was and what happened
there?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
the book to read and it was called Murdered Heiress
Living Witness, and he enduredsuch abuse.
People were trying to kill her.
She was very, very, verywealthy and those that were
closest to her.
They tried to murder her andshe escaped.
And it's a crazy story, almostlike mine.
You know, fact is stranger thanfiction.
Hollywood can't write stufflike this.
(52:09):
And I felt like, oh my God, thiswoman who was electrocuted,
left for dead, I mean jumped outof a hospital, you know window,
and I mean it was the wildeststory I'd ever read.
And I thought, oh my God, ifshe could get through that, I
can get through this, I am goingthrough this.
(52:31):
And it was literally a turningpoint.
So I'm glad you brought that up, ann, because for me I almost
felt like I was living the lifethat he was living.
He wasn't who he said he was,who he was portraying to be.
(52:52):
He was the first one of me tobelieve he was did not exist.
That person was just acharacter in one of his plays,
like he really was a differentperson.
And so I had this like innerstruggle, because I was
pretending to him that I wasstill all in, but in the back of
(53:15):
my mind.
I was plotting my escape for myson and I and my unborn baby.
I was pregnant at the time, soit was like I'm living a
duplicitous life, like I'mpretending, like I'm all in, but
I'm really, I'm checked out,I'm leaving, I just don't know
how or when, but I'm getting outof here.
So I started, and I started,you know, vacillating, because
(53:35):
it was like is this wrong of me?
Am I being deceptive?
Am I being you know um untrue?
Or you know untrue, or, youknow, am I lying somehow?
And then I thought, no, I'mprotecting myself and my child
and my unborn child.
So I had this inner struggle,this battle, and I started
(53:57):
gaining strength.
I started really getting alittle bit stronger every single
day, and that was reading thatbook helped me get to that point
.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
You could feel your strength and it was really
empowering.
You had a meeting.
You set up a meeting with apastor because you guys needed
money, and that I loved it.
If you could talk a little bitabout that.
I mean, I'm sure he didn't evenwant to go, if you could talk a
little bit about that.
I mean, I'm sure he didn't evenwant to go, but you scheduled
the meeting.
He ends up going and thispastor lady puts him in his
(54:29):
place a little bit, and so doyou.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
It was actually really liberating, ann, I bet,
because, for you know, almostlike two years, two and a half
years, I had been living, youknow, alive, like everything's
fine, and now this stack ofcards, this house of cards, is
starting to slowly fall apart.
And so when I went to her, Iknew that she was a no-nonsense
(54:55):
lady and I knew that he was,yeah, and I knew that he was so
worried about what she thoughtthat if he didn't show up for
the meeting, that it was goingto make him look bad.
And remember it's all aboutappearances, so he doesn't want
to look bad so he's so up forthe meeting and yeah, basically
(55:17):
she just called him out, shecalled him on the carpet, on
everything.
She's like you know, you're notbeing a good husband, you're
not being a good father, you'renot even paying the bills,
You're not taking care of yourhousehold.
Like, yeah, you're supposed tobe doing all of these things,
you're not doing any of it.
Like you need to get ittogether.
And I mean it was for me.
I was just like yes, like I'vebeen saying this.
(55:38):
He's not listening.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
And you used I think it was you who used the
scripture against him.
Yeah, Is that?
Speaker 2 (55:47):
correct.
Yeah, I did.
I mean, you know it's funny,because I knew what the Bible
said too, even though it hadbeen used to manipulate me.
I know what truth is, and it'slike well, you're supposed to be
the head of your house and thepriest of your home.
That's what the Bible says.
So why aren't you taking careof your family and why aren't
you you?
Speaker 1 (56:05):
know what I mean.
The husband is supposed to lovehis wife the way Christ loved
the church.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
That's exactly right and I did, and that's what the
scripture says.
I mean it doesn't mean you'rewife, like Christ, loved the
church.
But well, hello, god gave thislife for the church, so it's
like you're not giving upanything.
Everything's about you.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
It really was.
It really was.
And he was so good aboutkeeping everything under the
radar too.
I mean, that was another partof it.
You say at one point in thebook that he never threatened
you, he never struck you and hewas doing everything to make you
look like you were the crazyone.
So I mean, even the police gotinvolved and his friends show up
(56:48):
and I just was like what?
And every time everybodybelieved him and it made you out
to be crazy.
And he actually said that hedidn't feel safe, handing your
son over to you.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
That's exactly what he said.
It's wild.
I mean you feel like you'reliving in the twilight zone.
I mean you really do.
You're like is anybody here?
Like?
Is everybody in my world?
Like against me?
Like what is happening?
I mean police show up and it'shis friends that are the police
officers that show up, you know.
(57:26):
So you can't even call thepolice and get help.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
I didn't know.
I was just like what?
So how did you finally leavehim?
Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.
I am Anne and we have a verycourageous guest today.
Victoria Ellen, I've read yourbook and I was so upset for you
and also thrilled with you andyour kids throughout this entire
book.
You are so brave and you dideverything you could to help
(00:30):
your family.
Domestic abuse is often ignored, as we see in your book.
Child abuse is also one that somany look the other way, even
when all the evidence is rightin front of them.
The voiceless become moresilent.
I was a director of a batteredwoman's shelter.
I was abused.
(00:51):
My kids have been abused and Iadopted them and you know there
was a rape crisis centerattached to where I worked.
Also, and your story very muchresonates with me, you will be
heard today on this show, sothank you so much for trusting
us with your story.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, anne, forhaving me Really really happy to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
It's hard to put such a horrific story in writing,
I'm sure, for everyone to see,because you are basically and
even doing this podcast.
I mean it's a reliving and areliving and it has to take an
extra amount of bravery.
I'm sure to do it each andevery time.
You know this should be a movie.
(01:37):
I got to the end and I was likethis is a movie and I found
myself saying one more chapterbecause I wanted to find out
what happened and this story wasso unbelievable.
I just sat there most of thetime just shaking my head saying
are you kidding me?
So we're going to talk aboutdifferent kinds of domestic
abuse and look at child abuseand the system.
(02:00):
So you know, let's start at thebeginning.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah.
So the title is Painting in theRain.
A True Story of Trickery andTrine.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
You were very young when you met Daryl.
I was your future husband.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yes, I was.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And we've all been there.
You know, you look across theroom at somebody and your heart
kind of goes a little flutterand you're like, oh gosh, you
know they're so cute and youlike them and there's a
connection.
And people around you startsaying you know, oh, you know,
this guy isn't good for you.
And your mom actually said thatthere was darkness all around
(02:39):
him.
I mean, what in the world?
What were you thinking when shesaid that?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
It was wild.
My mother has always had justthis innate ability to it's like
the sixth sense, you know, ofher intuition.
God rest her soul.
Oh, your mom passed away.
Okay, she's writing this book.
She died of COVID, so I'mtelling you, like you want to
(03:05):
talk about trauma, I just gotthe gamut, you know, but it was
so powerful, anne, and it wasreally.
That's why I feel like it wassuch a spell that I was under
because about him, but I didn'theed that advice just kind of
(03:29):
shows you that deception isreally strong and it just
overtook me.
And, you know, instead of, like, listening to her and leaning
into people that love me, youknow, I was really really taken
by, like, like I say in the book, like this spell, and ended up
not listening to her adviceabout the darkness that
(03:51):
surrounded him.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, I think most young people do that.
You know our parents warn usand they're like what do they
know?
You know, I mean we all didthat.
And church can be deceivingbecause when you meet someone in
a church and they're likesinging God's praises and he's a
good person because he justseems like such a good godly man
(04:12):
.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So some of the worst people on this- planet are
hiding in the pews and they'reat the altar Praying on people
and it's the different pray.
It's P-R-E-Y, not P?
P-r-a-y.
You know what I mean.
And, um, I look at church kindof like an er right, all these
sick people coming in and tryingto get better, but you have to
remember that like noteverybody's on the same path as
(04:40):
you, you know.
So definitely the worst of theworst and you.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
That's where a lot of people who want to prey on
people can go, because so manypeople are.
They're broken.
You know, I used to be one ofthe chaplain people at the jail
for the women and I can tell you, I mean, they come in.
They're so broken and they'reso vulnerable and when you're in
(05:08):
that kind of a state and you'rein a church setting, somebody
can really take you down veryeasily.
It's scary.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, and you consider the mental health
disorders that we are up againstwith narcissistic personality
disorder, the fact that you knowwe're dealing with sociopaths
here.
I mean, these people are very,very ill and they are extremely
good at what they do, and sothey know how to read people,
and so if they think that you'reweak, if they think that you're
(05:37):
naive, if they think thatyou're a good person, they're
going to take advantage of thatand exploit your kindness and
your compassion and empathy.
They love to target you.
You have this big red target onyour back.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
And you were a young, innocent kid at the time.
I mean you wanted badly to dothe right thing so you weren't
looking for bad.
I mean you were afraid todisappoint and there were so
many changes and tragedies inyour young life, from abrupt
(06:09):
moves city to country, christianschool to public school and
your mom almost died.
I mean that was what happened.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
My mother was in a really horrible Jeep accident.
She had just dropped me off,actually for school, and I was
doing this carpool because itwas so far to get to that
private school and so we wouldcarpool, all these ticks and we
would go.
You know, one of the parentswould take us and she had just
dropped me off and it was asuper foggy morning and she
(06:34):
ended up not seeing a car thatwas stopped for a school bus on
the opposite side of the roadand so the fog was just so bad
and and she ended up flippingher Jeep multiple times and they
found her hanging upside downby her seatbelt, dead, and she
was out of body.
(06:54):
After life experiences and itwas, it was pretty wild and you
know she saw the light, all thethings.
I think that's probably anotherpodcast, another day.
But when she did end up likecoming back and breath, like
came back into her body, therewas a man there that had pulled
(07:15):
her cover down from her seatbeltand was with her and they ended
up care flighting her.
So you know I was really young,saw her in ICU and just you
know it was tragic, Very, verytraumatic.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
And your dad almost died.
So after your mom's, you know,a friend asked you how that
affected you and you had noteven thought about how it
affected you.
And in the book you sayregarding all of this, that's
enough to make anyone fearloneliness and abandonment.
And I lost my dad when I was 11years old, so I understand that
(07:53):
fear of loneliness andabandonment and at a young age
it can be so encompassing andcan drain everything out of you.
Do you think that it directedyour life for a long time?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I do, I really do.
It's interesting because youknow, at that moment you're so
young you don't consider it.
Then I ended up being really ayoung adult, meeting Daryl, and
so I hadn't considered it then.
But you know, as I look back onmy life, you know the book was
very cathartic and I do thinkthat it did change me in a lot
(08:26):
of ways.
Oh sure, I mean reallydrastically.
And then, you know, consideringwriting this book when my mom I
actually found both my parentsincapacitated, with COVID and
I'm an only child, so they bothended up going, you know, into
ICU in the hospital and mymother didn't make it.
(08:46):
And so, you know, trying tolike unpack all of this, like
abandonment and being alone andbeing an only child, only
grandchild, I mean, there's justso much there and I think that
was one of the reasons and why Ifelt like God, like I can't
stop now.
I mean the whole reason why Istarted this was so that I could
help other people not feelalone, and now I feel so much
(09:11):
more alone.
So I really want to make sure Itry to bridge this gap with
connection, and thatvulnerability creates connection
.
I mean Brene Brown talks aboutthat in her books.
I truly believe that and I mean, look at you and I, we don't
even know each other.
We're not.
We're getting to know eachother today, but it's amazing
how this trauma and just thealone, abandonment, almost
(09:34):
feeling, does create that, thatbridge with people who don't
have, you know, don't have theconnection previously.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Right, and we weren't meant to be alone.
So you know we were meant forconnection.
Yeah, it's hard when ourparents go.
I mean it really is.
I mean, and you had such aclose relationship with both of
your parents, so you know I'm sosorry for your mom.
As I continue to read your book, I noticed that you had a
(10:03):
natural reaction to all of thisfeeling that in your life was
out of control.
And then you met Daryl in thischurch.
So how would you have describedhim before doubt entered in?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Oh, very charismatic, yeah, larger than life,
personality, easy to like.
You know, there's just somepeople my husband, he's easy to
love, you know, it's just like,he's just a lovable guy.
Daryl was easy to like.
(10:38):
It was like, oh, he's just gotthis big personality and he was
funny and he was very young andbuff and attractive and it was
like, wow, and I'm supersheltered, you know, raised in
the living room there, and hewas like wow, like, oh, this is
a dream, right Out of this world.
(10:59):
So, yeah, and you know,everybody seemed to like him.
I mean when they would meet him.
I mean, obviously, when you tryto, when you look at my family
and my friends and thenconnecting him with me, they
didn't like that.
But I mean when you just pullall those layers off and and you
look at him alone.
Yeah, it was just, you know,attractive, funny and a great
(11:24):
big personality.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yeah, he could work a room.
There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yes, and he did in his 20s and his 30s and even
into his 40s.
I mean he was still working theroom.
I mean under all of the guises,right Under all.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Right, I was so surprised he would even enter in
, you know, to the courtroom.
That we'll talk about way later, but I mean just smiling and
just you know, hey, how's itgoing.
I was just like, oh my gosh,who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It's wild.
You know most people like yourfilter would kick in and you'd
be like I'm not going to actlike that, I've got to.
You know we're here for ahearing and not him I mean he
never.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
he never wore the shame or the blame or anything,
never, ever.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I don't think he even has the capacity to be really
frank with you, and the reason Ithink that is because, like
most of us are not the majorityof population, we're not
sociopaths, right?
We?
Have like empathy andcompassion and we know how to
read a room and you have socialawareness and you know you just
tread softly and he reallydidn't have that ability.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
If he did, he fought it, you know, tooth and nail,
because he wasn't going to showit by any means.
And another part of hispersonality is that he was so
convincing.
I mean, he used God often too,and I thought that that was
horrible.
He said to you that God toldhim that you were supposed to be
his wife.
So here is what seemed likethis wonderful young man who was
.
You know, he seemed like it, atthe same time putting very
subtle clues out there to who hereally was, the same time
(13:07):
putting very subtle clues outthere to who he really was.
So you know, he and his family.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
They were a little off.
Absolutely, they absolutelywere.
And my mom was calling theseshots.
It was wild.
She was like, oh, this ishappening, this is happening and
I'm like no, I'm like in La LaLand, I don't see any of it.
When you think about your ownmental health and you are in
your own emotional well-being,it's funny I say this in the
(13:32):
book and I often repeat it thatI can tell where I was at
mentally and emotionally in mywell-being by the people that I
was dating and so I wouldattract, you could attract
people you know it was like amagnet that were also like not
well, you know, masking it orcovering it up and using God, no
(13:54):
less, which I mean.
I just feel like there's aspecial place for people that
want to use God to prey onpeople.
I can't believe that he wasdoing this for so long under the
radar.
And, to your point, utilizingGod, I mean God will not be
mocked.
That's all I can say.
(14:15):
So you know what I mean.
His vengeance, he will have hisvengeance.
But for me personally, I was sonaive and I was so emotionally
just stunted that if and whensomeone like him says to me oh
my God, you're supposed to be mywife.
God told me, but you'resupposed to be my wife.
I mean, wow, like I was justlike oh, this is wonderful,
(14:39):
because I didn't.
I I didn't know if anybodywould ever love me because I had
so many issues.
You know what I mean.
So I'm not good enough foranything.
And this.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Well, you thought that he would be hiding
something.
I mean, you know, when you'regetting to know people, you're
talking about your siblings,your parents, you're you know,
you're telling all the thingsabout your life, and he wasn't
telling you those things.
I mean, as you were asking himquestions and he just kept
denying and deflecting aboutdifferent things that you would
(15:12):
ask him about.
So that said a lot about hispersonality too.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Absolutely, and that's something that I would
give as just kind of a just alittle nugget for people if they
have a takeaway from today'sshow.
You know, if you feel likethere are red flags or people
are hiding things, I mean thereis no reason to hide birthdates,
there's no reason to hideanniversaries, there's no reason
(15:37):
to hide where you work.
I mean these are normal thingsthat, unless you're hiding
something, it's normalconversation.
Oh, what's your birthday?
Oh, mine's June.
Oh, my gosh, that's awesome.
Mine's a June too.
What day?
Like you know, where'd yougraduate?
These types of things, thoseare normal questions and if
people are hiding things, thenthere's a reason why they're
hiding it.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean we'll get into it, buthe was a master at this.
A master, you know.
I always say that if there's anabuser in the room and there's
somebody that's vulnerable,there could be a thousand people
in there they will find thatperson.
(16:18):
And you said that the liondoesn't go after the strongest
gazelle, he goes after the onewith the broken leg.
That was me, you said.
And you said you didn't realizethat evil will seek you out and
will set up a trap to destroyyour life.
I mean, what was happening?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
It's wild.
I mean, I never thought that Iwas.
I never thought much of myself,okay.
So there's that.
Yeah, we just all can savespace for that, and we just all
(17:02):
can save space for that.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
I mean, I know a lot of people feel that way, but I
feel like you have to believe ingood and evil or my story just
doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Oh my gosh, it's all through your book, yeah, and so.
And it's very real.
I think it is, I truly believethat it is.
But I believe that you know theevil was waiting and there was
a plan, just like I feel likeyou know God has a plan for all
of our lives when we're born.
I feel like there's a plan anda purpose for all of us and you
can choose good or you canchoose evil, but I feel like
(17:29):
evil was very present.
And now that I'm a strongerperson, I know that my calling
is really great and that I'msupposed to really be kind of
networking and using my voice ina really, really big way.
And so now it makes sense torealize like, oh, back then
there was a plan to silence me,there was a plan to try to stop
(17:52):
me and basically to abort mymission, silence me, there was a
plan to try to stop me andbasically to abort my mission.
And that's really how I feel.
Nobody ever changed my mind,just simply because I've been
through 20 plus years of hell onearth with this man and now,
like being able to see from theother side what was going on,
really, you can't really denythat there was something at play
(18:16):
here to destroy me.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
One of my favorite ways that he was described in
the book was a narcissistic wordsalad and I was just like, oh
my gosh, that is perfect.
I actually wrote it down thatis perfect.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I actually wrote it down.
You can't make sense of it.
You're like what did they justsay?
You know?
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, the more you talked about him in the book, I
put one word down on a piece ofpaper grooming.
(19:08):
He was a master groomer.
I went to Rainn's website,R-A-I-N-N.
Grooming is a tool that abusersuse to gain access to a
potential victim, coerce them toagree to the abuse and reduce
the risk of being caught.
I've been groomed.
I have been groomed by someoneand you don't see it coming, and
it's an absolute horrible thingto have happen to you.
They're making you think thatyou are special, but they're
gradually luring you into thisworld of horror 100%.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
That definition nailed it, anne.
I mean I can't echo mysentiments more about how
accurate that really is.
And I was being groomed.
As a matter of fact, all of hisvictims were being groomed.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Absolutely, oh yeah, in a really scary way.
So here you are with this manand it's like you're in a
tornado, and then, all of asudden, your relationship takes
a much deeper turn because youguys are now permanently
connected.
So what happens?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah.
So I ended up getting pregnantwith my son and in my mind I
needed to make it right and Iwasn't convinced that I should
marry him.
So over the course of thosethree trimesters, while I was
pregnant, it was like I was withDaryl.
(20:29):
I'd broken up with Daryl secondtrimester and then I was back
with Daryl in the thirdtrimester.
So I'm starting to be able tosee things and see clearly.
But then he started all of thelove bombing, sending me flowers
and sending me gifts and howmuch he loved me and he wanted
to be an amazing father and awonderful husband.
(20:51):
And all of the empty promisesand the love bombing just
overwhelmed me and I ended upgetting married just a few short
days before I was due moving toa new city, a new home, being
married and a new mom all withina nice whirlwind of about 10
days.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was 10 days.
Oh my gosh, that's so much.
I mean, you just described thecycle of violence and we used to
talk I used to do trainings atthe Battered Woman's Shelter for
volunteers and we would put upthe cycle of violence and that's
(21:32):
exactly what would happen.
I mean, they would be sowonderful, they would lure you
in, and then all these thingswould start happening and maybe
some abuse would happen.
That was like wait what is,wait a second, and then they
would come with all these oh Ilove you's and the roses and
everything, and the honeymoonphase would last for a period of
(21:52):
time and then it would all goagain.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
That's it.
And you know it's funny becausein the moment it feels
chivalrous, like, oh, wow, likeyou want me to quit my job
because you want to take care ofme so I don't have to work.
Oh, that's so kind of you.
No, it's so he can control you,so he can do everything you do
control your money, controlwhere you spend money, control
(22:17):
when you leave the house,control every single moment of
your life.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, the control and manipulation were two words
that you used often in the book.
And here is this man that is soamazing to the world, but you
are seeing him as someone who isquite scary old.
But you are seeing him assomeone who is quite scary so
they can act so innocent, likewhat?
What did I do and make you feellike you're crazy?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Well, that's the gaslighting.
So anytime you startquestioning, then they
completely flip the script anduse what you just said the
manipulation.
What is wrong with you?
Why are you acting like this?
After all, I've done for you, Iworked so you can stay at home
with our baby, like you know,and it's gosh unbelievable
(23:06):
really it really is, and his momand dad were thrilled that you
guys were getting married.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I mean they belong together.
I mean that family.
They were really something else.
But one of the things that Isaw was that you were hoping
constantly well, maybe when thebaby is born this will happen.
You know he'll finally be therefor me and be there for us, and
you know that type of thing.
(23:32):
But it just kept getting worseand worse.
And you gave an example.
I could not believe this.
It was your birthday, you hadjust had a C-section and what?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
He schedules a birthday trip I'm using air
quotes for those of you who arelistening For me and schedules a
birthday weekend away.
Now, mind you, my son was bornthe fourth day of January and my
birthday is in February.
Okay, I had a C-section afterlaboring for 18 hours, so I mean
(24:08):
, it was just like horrendous.
And he schedules a birthdaytrip at a ski lodge, away from
my newborn and at a ski lodge.
I mean, how much more selfishcan you be, ann?
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I just read that and I just could not believe that he
did that.
I mean, I had to have ahysterectomy years ago and so it
was kind of like a C-section, Iwould say back then, that's how
they used to do it.
And oh my gosh, there is no way.
There's just no way.
I can't believe that he did.
He never thought of you guys.
(24:45):
He never thought of anybody buthimself.
So, yeah, yeah, Well, hecontrolled every move of you
guys and you had to stay at yourparents' house where you
basically were monitored 24-7.
He was in control of where youwent and he wouldn't let you go
anywhere without him.
Were you allowed to have arelationship with your family?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, so I just want to make sure I clarify that I
would have to stay at hisparents' house.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yes, I thought I said that I'm sorry have to stay at
his parents' house.
Yes, I thought I said that I'msorry that you stayed at his
parents' house.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
His parents' house, and he did.
He monitored my every move.
I wasn't allowed to open thecurtains.
The blinds, I mean, had to beshut at all times.
I wasn't allowed to leave thehouse without permission.
Where do you need to go anyway?
I mean, you don't have a joband you're supposed to be taking
care of our newborn, so wheredo you need to go?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
You know if.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I wanted to go to the grocery, it was like absolutely
not.
And that just continued toratchet up over time.
And then it's just, you know,the taking of my keys, hiding my
not letting me go.
It's just, I mean, so muchcontrol, oh my God, it was
unbelievable.
(26:00):
You're right.
Yeah, every move, every singlemove, was controlled.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
You know, when a woman and I think he was
starting to think, you know,suspect that you were going to
leave and that was why he wasdoing that.
And when somebody gets to thepoint where they're thinking
that the men or you know,whoever is abusing the other
person, is starting to up theirgame too.
So I mean the moving of thekeys and just starting to ask
(26:30):
you you know, he always wantedto know where you were going and
then he would be like, oh no,I'll go to the store instead of
you.
Or he would go away, say he wasgoing away for two hours and
come back in 15 minutes.
I mean that always had to keepyou on your toes.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
It does.
It's like your nervous systemis constantly on high alert
because for one second you'relike, oh my God, thank God he's
leaving, I've got two hours ofpeace and I can just sit here
and like, just try to breatheand like get myself together,
you know, and try to make senseof like this crazy life that I'm
(27:07):
living.
And then him coming back in 15minutes after he said he'd be
gone two hours, it was like oh.
Back in 15 minutes after hesaid he'd be gone two hours, it
was like oh.
So just to let you know, you'renot in control of your life.
You don't get to play in thenext two hours.
I say when you can rest.
I say if you can rest, I sayhow long you'll rest.
So yeah, you're constantly in astate of fight or flight.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
You know let's talk about this credit cards and the
money and where this story goeswith his need to impress.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
So Daryl was very consumed with anything that was
materialistic, so he wanted andalso perception.
Let me just say that Rightright could portray that he was
(28:03):
successful and he drove anexpensive car and we lived in a
nice home and we had expensiveclothing or whatever it was then
it was.
People would perceive me assuccessful and if people
perceive you a certain way, thenhe could basically create this
(28:25):
formula where if I looksuccessful and I play the part
of a successful person, thenI'll attract more money and more
relationships of people whohave money and then I'll be at
my disposal, have more access tofunds so that I can utilize
that to fund my lifestyle.
And so he would drive ourfriends' cars, because he was
really close with these peopleand he was young and, like I
(28:47):
said, you know he just had this.
You know forked tongue.
You know he just could.
He was so manipulative and hecould just sway people into
doing whatever he wanted.
So he's driving Dodge Vipersand he's driving Hummers and
he's driving these expensivelike racing BMWs and all these
cars that just cost anexorbitant amount of money.
Meanwhile we can't even affordto buy our groceries, and so he
(29:12):
would take my credit cards andbuy groceries and pay the
electric bill, and pay the waterbill and buy clothing and
whatever he wanted, and put itall on the credit cards.
Because I actually had credit,because my mom taught me how to
manage money when I was growingup and I had a savings account
and a checkbook, and so he justwanted his name on everything.
(29:35):
And of course we're married.
I have to be submitted to myhusband, and aren't you going to
be a good wife?
And don't you know what God'sWord says about?
A wife should submit to herhusband.
And so then he used the word tojust beat me over the head and
it was like well, this is whatthe Bible says, and if you're
not a good Christian, you're notgoing to obey the Bible.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And it's like oh, you know, in the battered women's
shelter that was the word andthe Christian women would come
in and they felt so awful.
They really believed that theywere going against God and it
was beat into them not just bythe husband but also by the
(30:14):
church, because they needed tolisten to him and do what the
husband said.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
That's exactly right, and you got to think about how
we program our minds right.
Repetition over and over, and,over and, over and over again.
You're being told that you aregoing against God, not going
against man, because this personis supposed to be like,
(30:40):
operating like with the, youknow, with God as his head.
So if he's submitted to God andyou're submitted to him, then,
oh my gosh, you don't want to goagainst God.
And it's such a manipulation ofwhat the Bible even is.
So if you don't know anythingabout the Bible, then you would
be like who would want to haveanything to do with God anyway,
(31:01):
because this is like a horriblelife.
But the problem is none of itwas actually used correctly.
It was all manipulation andcontrol for selfish gains so
that they can get what they want, which is more control and
being able to just have peopleas pawns, and so it was a sick
vicious cycle that I was stuckin and then finally being able
(31:23):
to come out of that and youstart to slowly come out of that
fog.
You are under the spell and youcan't even think clearly
because you have beenbrainwashed.
It's a cult.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, it really is.
And plus, he was beating youdown all the time.
So I mean your mental andemotional state was so low.
He wouldn't even let you leavethe house without sweats, and I
mean with sweats on or somethinglike that.
I mean you had to look perfectat all times, and if you didn't,
he would put you down, and thenhe wouldn't even let you cry.
(31:56):
So you had this thing where, Imean, he said that you were
actually pitiful and he put youdown if you had emotion.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Correct, and that's the other thing.
They want to completelydesensitize you and then berate
you when you are down.
And you're exactly right.
When you're constantly beingtold you know that you're not
good enough and you're notskinny enough and you're not
pretty enough.
And you know, if you don't haveon makeup, then you're not
pretty, and if your hair's upyou don't really look great
(32:29):
because you don't really have avery strong jawline to be able
to wear your hair up.
You should always wear yourhair down and just like those
little digs constantly over andover.
And then you know, if you readthe book, you'll understand he
was really big intoweightlifting and so it was all
about the physique and so itwasn't just the money, it was
(32:50):
like the strong presence of himbeing like I'm strong, I'm
powerful, I've got this buffbody.
Look how put together I am andeverybody wants me.
You know it's just constant andyou can't even come up for air.
You're literally drowning allthe time.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
And he also you kind of mentioned this a little bit
ago.
I mean, he kept you literallyin the dark, literally, and you
even got in trouble for likelifting up the blinds.
You know, I don't know whatthat was.
Even at his parents' house theywere that way.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
What are you doing in your house that you can't open
the blinds, that you can't havethe drapes open on the windows
or that you can't have thewindows open?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Right, right right.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
What are you doing in there?
I mean, it's the wildest thing.
It's so funny.
We just built a house.
It's a year ago this month.
I don't have any drapes on.
I mean, this is my office.
There aren't drapes.
Even in here, in our livingroom, there are no drapes.
There are no blinds.
Front door big big door.
I'm like let the light in nomore darkness.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Exactly, and along with that, we touched on this,
too, a little bit.
But the crazy making that heput into you with this
narcissism.
This really hit me.
When, for anybody who's beenabused, you say how scary it is
to realize that you are livingwith someone you don't even know
and how they were able to lieto everyone and have this secret
(34:24):
life which you still didn'tknow at this time.
But the gaslighting and livingwith a stranger who you were
married to, that you don't evenknow at all and you say Daryl
would be gaslighting you, andthen you talk about how Daryl
would be physically restrainingyou.
He physically restrained youand I found it interesting that
(34:49):
he turned it around on you andhe's like I'm trying to protect
you from hurting yourself.
That is terrifying how someonecan mess with your mind so much
and be like wait, I'm helpingyou, but I'll tell you I loved
how you said you're notprotecting me, you're
controlling me.
I was like, yeah, you go, youknow, but he comes back with
(35:15):
this is I mean?
This was just crazy.
There is this thing that hesaid.
He turned it back on you andsaid that he was worried about
your mental state.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Absolutely, and this is just another play in the
playbook of the narcissist.
They try to make you thinkyou're crazy.
They switch everything up onyou constantly and then they do
question your mental health.
Maybe you should, you know,really examine your heart and
(35:45):
your mind, because a goodChristian woman would never act
like this.
She would never question.
And you know, I was alreadyprogrammed for the good girl,
right.
I was already like all I everwanted to do was to honor God
with my life.
I just wanted to be a goodperson.
I just wanted to be a goodperson.
I just wanted to be a good girl.
(36:06):
So when you've already got thatin your mind, as a good girl
submits, a good girl does whatshe's told.
A good girl is a people pleaser.
A good girl doesn't go againsther husband, she honors her
husband and she submits.
I mean you've already got allthis programming and so you do
(36:28):
feel like you're going crazy.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
And you wore the shame.
I mean, you really felt likeyou were standing before God
with all this shame.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You know it's interesting.
Shame beat the hell out of me.
I say that all the time.
It really did.
And if you don't know whatshame is, it's basically like
this feeling where you reallycan't even lift your head.
You walk where you feel likethis heaviness is on you.
(37:04):
It's like this heavy cape andyou're carrying this burden and
your head is just constantlydown because you don't feel like
you're good enough and youdon't feel like you're smart
enough and you don't feel likeyou qualify for anything because
of all these things that youhaven't done right, and that's
your track record, and yourtrack record sucks.
And so what are you going to donow?
You've left your entire familyto run off with this man who
(37:26):
ends up being a loser and anabuser, and so now what are you
going to do?
You can't go back, so shame isjust eating me alive.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Right Gosh, I felt so bad for you.
I just wanted to come intothose pages and be like you're
fine.
I mean, I just wanted to likegive you a hug.
I felt so awful for all theshame and he felt none, by the
way.
So there was that.
So I want to touch a little bitmore.
(37:56):
I mean, this is harder.
The abuse continued and thehardest thing in our lives as a
parent is to realize that nowyour child is being hurt.
You started suspecting thatyour son at this time was being
hurt.
You started seeing behaviorswith your child that made you
(38:18):
really believe this.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yes, I did.
And you know, all through beingmarried to Daryl, like I said,
the Bible was the be-all andend-all, and so in his mind,
that scripture that says sparethe rod, spoil the child, was
constant.
(38:42):
And so, you know, ryland was soyoung and at that time I didn't
know what was going on withRyland, but Ryland was
constantly crying, constantlyscreaming, inconsolable at all
times and could not regulateever, and so he, just he was a
(39:03):
mess all the time and I didn'tknow what I didn't know.
Now, looking back, I know thathe was being abused sexually and
physically, emotionally,mentally, everything he endured,
but we didn't know what waswrong with him and he was
constantly crying.
And so Daryl's response to thatis well, you know, you've got
to whip him.
And so he would leave bruiseson him because he had whipped
(39:29):
him so hard.
And I mean we're talking abouta one-year-old, he was still in
diapers.
I mean there's no reason why hewould have needed to be, you
know, no, no, no.
But you can't try to use logicor reason with the narcissist
because you're going to losethat game every single day.
And then the constant, with megetting in the middle of him and
(39:52):
Ryland and trying to stop thatand, of course, creating a
horrible son and my son'sgrowing up in this horrible,
violent life and me just tryingat that point to just be like,
hey, don't you have somewhere togo?
Like, yeah, go, that's fine,we're here.
And then just really justtrying at that point to just be
like, hey, don't you havesomewhere to go?
Like, yeah, go, that's fine,we're here.
And then just really justtrying to make him continue to
be gone because I didn't wanthim around, because I didn't
(40:13):
want him to abuse us while hewas there.
So, yeah, it was horrific, butthe behavior that he was
displaying ultimately startedleading me to believe that he
was also being sexually abused.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
His mom made a reference that gave me the
chills.
She said that you could hidethe abuse, that things could be
happening and nobody see it.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yep'll tell you, looking back on all of that
writing this book, it was one ofthe farthest chapters I had to
get through and, to be reallyhonest with you, oh I I bet um,
and janice heisel is myco-author.
I actually hired her initially.
It was like as a ghost writer,um, but we ended up.
(41:06):
Can you imagine telling yourlife story to someone over the
course of a year and a half?
I mean, you become really closeand we became very good friends
and I tasked her with somethings like this stuff, because
I couldn't go through all of thefiles again and again and again
and again to pull up, like allthe documentation for Asian
(41:27):
children's services, a lot ofthose things, and even this
question about his mother, evenyou know, basically forewarning
me, and it was like she wassaying like, oh, this could
happen, so you have to be socareful.
That's why we don't let anybodyelse watch our kids.
No, the reason why you don'tlet other people watch your kids
is because you're abusing them,and then if other people were
(41:49):
to see them, then they wouldknow that they were being abused
.
So very sick, very sick, and Imean total, total perpetrator.
So what do?
Speaker 1 (41:59):
you do?
Do you believe that she hadknowledge of everything that was
happening?
Speaker 2 (42:04):
I do.
That's my belief.
There's no way to prove thatRight.
I do believe she did.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
It almost felt in those statements that she said
that she was a part of it.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Oh, I believe.
Oh, she was, she was, shewasn't, yeah, she wasn't yeah.
And you know what's interesting, I was scared to death because
I had an attorney that I hiredto go through the book, because
when you are involved with thismany court cases and for this
extended period of time, it'shard, because I mean, you know
(42:39):
this Anne having the batteredwomen's shelter, but you really
have to be careful what you saybecause of you know a
declamation lawsuit or what hebrought against you.
She is deceased, so I don'thave to worry about any of that,
but she was absolutely one ofthe named abusers and so you
(43:01):
know it's very difficult becausethis person that's saying, hey,
you need to keep your kids safe, is actually the person that's
preying on your child.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Oh my gosh, that's so scary.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
So scary.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
And it's the people who are close to your child who
is hurting them.
So how messed up is that, as akid, who's hurting them?
So how messed up is that, as akid?
The people that are supposed tobe protecting you when they're
you know, when they're watchinghim are the ones who are
actually hurting him.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Well, and I've learned through therapy over the
years, and this is an excellentpoint.
I was so confused because Icouldn't understand why my son
would say that he missed his job, like when he wasn't around.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
I was so completely confused because I thought you
know that you're being abused byhim and all of these people in
this family and you miss them.
But it's in our DNA, right,it's in our person to want to be
connected to our parents.
We want to be loved by ourparents.
(44:09):
We miss our parents.
I mean, there's things thatpeople have endured from their
parents that are justunspeakable, but they still miss
them because they miss whatthey want to have with that
person.
And that's what's so perverseabout all of it, because he did
miss his dad, even though hisdad was a perpetrator and an
(44:32):
abuser.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah, I mean, it's a real thing that happens to a lot
of people.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I'm not sure why that happens, but I think when
people hurt us, it hurts us sodeeply in our emotions are so
connected and it like, ifthere's hate, there's love, if
there's, you know, and I thinkthat it just kind of triggers
all of that within us and itcreates some kind of a
(45:14):
connection that's definitelyunhealthy 100%.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
There's soul ties there, for sure.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Now, in a point in your book you start talking
about friends who started to seethings.
What did you feel about?
I think it was Meredith whonoticed the bruises, and then
you also had somebody thatoffered to marry you.
I mean, they wanted to rescueyou.
So you had friends who reallywanted to help.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
I really did.
I had a great group of friendsthat I don't know.
I still feel like, wow, I'm soblessed to have people like that
in my life that loved me enoughto.
I mean, when I was pregnantwith Ryland and I was going
through that phase of I don'tknow if I should marry him or
(46:03):
not, and my friend was like ohmy gosh, like I would love to
marry you, like I would takecare of you and this baby, like
absolutely.
And Meredith, she was so closeto me.
When I did finally go back towork she was helping with Ryland
when I was gone and she did seethe bruises on Ryland and
(46:24):
questioned me about it.
So then it was like it's almostlike I don't know how to say
this but when you are the personwho is living such a secret and
a lie and you're trying tocontrol what other people know
about you and your, or oncesomeone knows, it's almost like
a relief.
(46:45):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (46:47):
No sure.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Pressure cooker and you know, the top or the steam
starts letting the steam off.
It's kind of like it's startingto release some of that,
because you don't have to bottleall that up inside of me.
We're like, oh my God, somebodyelse knows.
And they think it's crazy too,and they know it's wrong too,
and I'm not losing my mind, I'mnot the crazy one.
(47:09):
There's somebody crazy here,but it's not me, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, it starts validating what you're seeing,
because you really do feel crazyat that point because
everything that's happeningyou're feeling isn't really
happening, because they'retelling you.
He's telling you it's notreally happening really
happening because they'retelling you.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
he's telling you it's not really happening.
So that's his own narrative.
He's writing the story, youknow, writing what he wants you
to believe.
Do you think he believed hislies?
I think he got to a point wherehe did I do.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Okay, I really wondered that because he got to
so convincing I mean, he wasalways convincing, but he
included so many differentpeople in this like web of lies
I started wondering if heactually believed him.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
I think he did.
I mean, nobody will ever know,but I believe that he started
just going down that trail ofthis really is reality, even
though he was creating it as hewent of this really is reality,
even though he was creating itas he went.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
I mean, even his hairdresser was involved in a
way, because I mean he even liedthat his hair was straight.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Don't even think you'd need to lie about Anne,
like it's so wild.
That's why he would lie, evenif it served him better to tell
the truth, I mean yeah, that'swhat a narcissist is, for sure.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah, so I started looking at one of the worst
times under his control with youno electricity, no water.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Nope and electric.
The garage door won't go upbecause they can't get in.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
We don't have electric oh my gosh, you
couldn't even bathe your sonnope, I had to go to his parents
house again.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Convenient, because no one else could know that we
didn't have electric or waterright, right.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
I just don't understand.
I mean, he would do somethingso outlandish too, and one of
the things that he would get youfor is because you would say a
swear word.
You know, I mean he didsomething so crazy and then turn
it on you and say, but look atyou.
You swore.
I mean you're a horrible person, because you said hell.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah, that's right, because you said hell.
Yeah, that's right.
It's the self-righteousness ofthe narcissist that really is so
unreal, like I feel like that'sjust part of.
They have to keep this up, keepthis going, and they have to
find anything and everythingthat you do to try to make you
look, look bad, becauseotherwise you're going to be on
(49:46):
to them and so they have to beatyou down.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Okay.
It reaches a point in the storywhere your son comes over and
hugs you, and I think thatsomething happened inside of you
when that happened.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
Yeah, I was at that time, I believe, pregnant with
Mercedes, my daughter.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
It was just this moment where I couldn't believe
that I'm a two-year-old who'sconsoling me because I'm so
emotional and I didn't want himto grow up with such dysfunction
Right and in my mind.
I had no idea how I was goingto escape, couldn't even begin
to put the pieces together of astrategy or a plan.
(50:31):
I just knew I'm going to getout of here and I'm not going to
make him endure this anymore.
This was prior.
I just want to clarify this isprior to knowing about the
sexual abuse and I did not know.
You know what?
Oh, absolutely.
So when that started coming out, then, you know, it kind of
(50:54):
ratcheted up the time, thetimeframe for me to be able to
escape.
Speaker 1 (50:59):
Yeah, I mean from the beginning of the story all the
way through to the end.
It was a completely differentstory.
I mean watching you grow andthe strength and the ability to
really fight for yourself andyour family was such a beautiful
woven story within the story.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
One of the things that happened is you ended up
with a book in your hand.
If I remember right Dr Wagner,I think it was and what happened
there?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
the book to read and it was called Murdered Heiress
Living Witness, and he enduredsuch abuse.
People were trying to kill her.
She was very, very, verywealthy and those that were
closest to her.
They tried to murder her andshe escaped.
And it's a crazy story, almostlike mine.
You know, fact is stranger thanfiction.
Hollywood can't write stufflike this.
(52:09):
And I felt like, oh my God, thiswoman who was electrocuted,
left for dead, I mean jumped outof a hospital, you know window,
and I mean it was the wildeststory I'd ever read.
And I thought, oh my God, ifshe could get through that, I
can get through this, I am goingthrough this.
(52:31):
And it was literally a turningpoint.
So I'm glad you brought that up, ann, because for me I almost
felt like I was living the lifethat he was living.
He wasn't who he said he was,who he was portraying to be.
(52:52):
He was the first one of me tobelieve he was did not exist.
That person was just acharacter in one of his plays,
like he really was a differentperson.
And so I had this like innerstruggle, because I was
pretending to him that I wasstill all in, but in the back of
(53:15):
my mind.
I was plotting my escape for myson and I and my unborn baby.
I was pregnant at the time, soit was like I'm living a
duplicitous life, like I'mpretending, like I'm all in, but
I'm really, I'm checked out,I'm leaving, I just don't know
how or when, but I'm getting outof here.
So I started, and I started,you know, vacillating, because
(53:35):
it was like is this wrong of me?
Am I being deceptive?
Am I being you know um untrue?
Or you know untrue, or, youknow, am I lying somehow?
And then I thought, no, I'mprotecting myself and my child
and my unborn child.
So I had this inner struggle,this battle, and I started
(53:57):
gaining strength.
I started really getting alittle bit stronger every single
day, and that was reading thatbook helped me get to that point
.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
You could feel your strength and it was really
empowering.
You had a meeting.
You set up a meeting with apastor because you guys needed
money, and that I loved it.
If you could talk a little bitabout that.
I mean, I'm sure he didn't evenwant to go, if you could talk a
little bit about that.
I mean, I'm sure he didn't evenwant to go, but you scheduled
the meeting.
He ends up going and thispastor lady puts him in his
(54:29):
place a little bit, and so doyou.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
It was actually really liberating, ann, I bet,
because, for you know, almostlike two years, two and a half
years, I had been living, youknow, alive, like everything's
fine, and now this stack ofcards, this house of cards, is
starting to slowly fall apart.
And so when I went to her, Iknew that she was a no-nonsense
(54:55):
lady and I knew that he was,yeah, and I knew that he was so
worried about what she thoughtthat if he didn't show up for
the meeting, that it was goingto make him look bad.
And remember it's all aboutappearances, so he doesn't want
to look bad so he's so up forthe meeting and yeah, basically
(55:17):
she just called him out, shecalled him on the carpet, on
everything.
She's like you know, you're notbeing a good husband, you're
not being a good father, you'renot even paying the bills,
You're not taking care of yourhousehold.
Like, yeah, you're supposed tobe doing all of these things,
you're not doing any of it.
Like you need to get ittogether.
And I mean it was for me.
I was just like yes, like I'vebeen saying this.
(55:38):
He's not listening.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
And you used I think it was you who used the
scripture against him.
Yeah, Is that?
Speaker 2 (55:47):
correct.
Yeah, I did.
I mean, you know it's funny,because I knew what the Bible
said too, even though it hadbeen used to manipulate me.
I know what truth is, and it'slike well, you're supposed to be
the head of your house and thepriest of your home.
That's what the Bible says.
So why aren't you taking careof your family and why aren't
you you?
Speaker 1 (56:05):
know what I mean.
The husband is supposed to lovehis wife the way Christ loved
the church.
Speaker 2 (56:10):
That's exactly right and I did, and that's what the
scripture says.
I mean it doesn't mean you'rewife, like Christ, loved the
church.
But well, hello, god gave thislife for the church, so it's
like you're not giving upanything.
Everything's about you.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
It really was.
It really was.
And he was so good aboutkeeping everything under the
radar too.
I mean, that was another partof it.
You say at one point in thebook that he never threatened
you, he never struck you and hewas doing everything to make you
look like you were the crazyone.
So I mean, even the police gotinvolved and his friends show up
(56:48):
and I just was like what?
And every time everybodybelieved him and it made you out
to be crazy.
And he actually said that hedidn't feel safe, handing your
son over to you.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
That's exactly what he said.
It's wild.
I mean you feel like you'reliving in the twilight zone.
I mean you really do.
You're like is anybody here?
Like?
Is everybody in my world?
Like against me?
Like what is happening?
I mean police show up and it'shis friends that are the police
officers that show up, you know.
(57:26):
So you can't even call thepolice and get help.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
I didn't know.
I was just like what?
So how did you finally leavehim?
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