April 9, 2024 • 36 mins
In episode 57 of the "Reclaiming Man" podcast, host Michael Beckwith engages in a profound conversation with Jon Beck, a respected individual known for both his professional achievements and his character. The discussion delves into Jon's personal and professional life, revealing his journey as the founder and CEO of Ursus, a digital staffing firm expanding into the life sciences sector. Jon shares insights on the importance of integrating personal passions with professional work, aiming for a life that doesn't necessitate retirement.
The conversation transitions to deeper themes of vulnerability, self-awareness, and the continuous pursuit of growth, both personally and professionally. Jon emphasizes the importance of embracing challenges and getting out of one's comfort zone as a pathway to growth, reflecting on his own experiences and the culture he fosters within his company.
Michael and Jon explore the impact of societal pressures, the pursuit of truth in a time of information overload, and the significance of mentorship and guidance for younger generations navigating their career paths. The episode touches on the power of vulnerability as a strength, the role of mentorship in personal development, and the journey towards setting and achieving high standards and goals.
This conversation is a testament to the value of resilience, self-improvement, and the pursuit of a fulfilling life, both in and outside the workplace, encouraging listeners to reflect on their own journeys and the power of human potential.
Connect with Jon Beck on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonbeck/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael (00:05):
All right.
Well, let's just dive right in.
So welcome to episode 57 of thereclaiming man podcast.
Michael Beckwith here hostingtoday with an interview guest
Jon Beck.
An individual who I've beengetting to know over the past
couple of years, I reallyrespect both your intellect, who
(00:25):
you are as a person, moreimportantly, and the
accomplishments that you've had,you know, professionally, I'm
interested in diving in morepersonally to to hear about your
life and some of the otherpassions that you have outside
of work where Take care.
Kind of the context of ourrelationship was formed.
But yeah, welcome to the show,Jon.
Jon (00:43):
Michael, it's great to be here and I will reciprocate the
comments and feelings.
I think the first time you and Ichatted, we talked about, The
existence of extraterrestriallife forms, I think.
And I'm like, this is adifferent kind of dude, man.
We're not just talking,, we'reboth in staffing and, you know,
you get tired of talking aboutstaffing and we were going down
(01:04):
a bunch of rabbit holes, whichwas cool and, and appreciate how
it's all evolved and excited tobe here.
So.
Yeah,, my work identity is thefounder and CEO of Ursus.
We're a digital staffing firmthat focuses on technology and
creative.
And spoiler alert, we're aboutto launch a life sciences
practice here in a week or two,which we're excited about.
(01:25):
Business has been around fornine years, loving the journey,
which it is a journey.
Learned more in that time periodthan maybe at any point in my
career.
And yes, interested in talkingabout other things outside of
work as well.
Michael (01:38):
That's great.
And thanks for just sharing alittle bit about the
intersection of the professionalworld in the past couple of
years with my personal passionshas been increasing greatly.
And by design, I've, you know,we've talked a little bit about
on this show, and maybe we'llget to it with you as well, but
designing a life that you don'tneed to retire from.
(02:00):
And finding that integration ofthe work that we do with the
passions that we have.
And I feel that in you feel thatin the way that you talk about
what you do professionally.
And I'm curious to explore thata little bit more in this
conversation.
I know I've shared a little bitabout reclaiming man, but we
really focus on these threepillars of reclaiming our minds,
reclaiming our bodies.
(02:20):
Ultimately to reclaim freedom,and really start to embody the
values that we think are andshould be common across men,
across humanity.
So it's those types of deeperconversations that we've shared
in the past that I know willbuild a great conversation here.
So I think 1 of the 1stquestions that I have for you
as, a leader founder of a largecompany.
(02:44):
I think it's a large companyanyways, based on what you guys
are doing and the impact thatyou're having.
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat the journey was like before
you got to Ursus and,personally, what we're leading
up to some of those types ofdecisions, just the amount of.
Risk that's involved and how youbalance that out with the
(03:05):
opportunity, because I thinkit's a really good parallel into
the reclaiming freedomcomponent.
Jon (03:10):
Sure.
And to get to the first point ofstep off to say not, I want to
start a company.
I'm thinking about starting acompany.
Wouldn't it be cool to start acompany, but actually to start a
company took a lot of reflectionand life experience, both
positive and negative, to get tothat point where I really had at
(03:34):
least enough self confidence andcourage and self awareness to
say, I can do this still reallyscary.
And I, when I think back, youknow, and I, my, one of my
throwaway lines when I, whenpeople ask me about the company
is my only regret is I didn'tstart 10 years sooner, but I
don't know if I would have beenas effective, had I started 10
(03:57):
years sooner, I think, you know,the universe gives you what you
want and when you need it and itwas the right time.
The company that I was with wasacquired.
It was really an acqui hire.
We were lucky to get anacquisition done and I started
to look around for my nextcareer opportunity.
And, those, that, that itch inmy brain and my soul kept coming
(04:17):
back to me, like it's time to dosomething.
And and even with that, I, whenI started the company I, decided
to, go at it with a co founderwho I subsequently bought out.
Which all worked out in the end,but but yeah, no, it was, I had
to get to that point, through alot of self exploration and life
experience.
And I marvel at people thatstart careers when they're much
(04:39):
younger in their life in theirtwenties and after they
graduate.
And I think ignorance is blissfor a lot of those folks.
And there's that just, you know,youthful confidence and courage.
And, I maybe missed that windowand had to wait a little longer,
but it all worked out in theend.
Michael (04:56):
Yeah.
Two couple things that outthere, you know, you mentioned
self awareness is such animportant part of it.
And that's something that I feellike I struggled with, gosh,
until, and I still am strugglingwith in the sense of I'm working
on it and it's a progression anda journey.
But are there any things likespecifically that helped you
become more self aware?
(05:16):
I mean, of course, you're goingthrough experiences, you're
working at other companies andyou're.
Basically building somebodyelse's dream as I like to call
it until you start to dosomething for yourself and
you're, on that journey.
Now, you've gained this, likeexperience wisdom, like, are
there anything that stands outas like this pivotal type of
either a habit or I mean, somepeople talk about meditation,
(05:39):
other things, right?
What are the, some of thecomponents of, building self
awareness and getting to thatrealization of, okay, I want to
start a company and not onlystart a company, I know I'm
going to be successful doing it.
Jon (05:53):
I think first of all, I've been, I was very fortunate
throughout my career to workwith some really outstanding
leaders and mentors and be partof management teams that were
just exceptional, not just in,from the business side, but just
good humans.
There were a few duds on the wayto.
And I think as time carried onand I moved from company to
(06:18):
company, I started to see apattern where, I understood a
lot of the things that werehappening.
I obviously was getting moresavvy just based on experience,
my own accomplishments, but alsorealizing that, a lot of the
people that I was working forwere as vulnerable and.
(06:42):
Maybe exposed and scared andneeding help as I would be if I
took that role myself and nowsitting on the other side of
that.
I think it's really healthy toshow some vulnerability to my
team.
I don't have all the answers.
I do ask for help.
And so I think that was.
There wasn't one epiphany alongthe way, but I think I just
started to realize look, I'mnot, there's never going to be
(07:05):
the right time to start.
So I'm never going to have allthe answers.
I'm never going to have all theskills, but if I start the
journey, I'm going to learn, andI have enough people in my
ecosystem that I can go lean onand ask for help the same way
that I've helped people on theway that I'll be able to figure
it out.
And I, that, that was reallywhat gave me enough confidence
at that point to say I can go dothis.
Michael (07:25):
Yeah.
But that's still
Jon (07:27):
scary.
Michael (07:27):
Right.
Yeah, and that's almost, well,not almost, it's
counterintuitive, you know,borderline paradoxical that
vulnerability and with that selfawareness to say oh, I can't do
everything, I need to have thesupport system around me, but
that vulnerability as a strengthis something that I, also think
is Really important to talkabout as men and to, diverge
(07:51):
from some of the historicalstereotypes of men having the
sort of unbreakable exteriorshell and being the tough
personality or that type ofpersona.
I think that I felt leastgrowing up anyways, was a big
part of what the expectation wasfrom society.
Versus, you know, sort of thisinternal standard that I have.
(08:11):
And so those are two differentthings that I was hoping to
actually include in theconversation.
So it's a good, transition.
But how do we take that step ofbecoming vulnerable?
It's feel scary, but in doingso, it, you know, can get
translated to strength but, canshare a little bit more about
that.
Jon (08:30):
I always had it within me.
My mom, Was a psychologist youknow, graduated an amazing
story.
She went back to college and Iwas eight or nine and went back
and got her undergraduate andthen her degree.
And even before she went back toschool, she just has incredible
emotional IQ.
I believe that, you know, we allhave our own superpowers and her
(08:52):
ability to understand people andthe complexities of people and
the inner workings betweenpeople was her superpower.
And I think I got some of thatthrough her DNA.
So I, I always had, I think thatawareness and always was,
vulnerable in my personal life,but in my professional life it,
it didn't seem like that wasacceptable and maybe we've
(09:14):
evolved over the last fewdecades and I think increasing
with increasing velocity where.
Men now, more men in leadershippositions, it's acceptable to do
that.
Certainly the stereotypes of thefifties and sixties and
seventies and even eighties,there, there was no room for
that in a lot of my mentors.
That's how I was mentored.
(09:34):
So, and that's a positive forsure.
So, not everyone identifies withit.
I have plenty of peers of minethat when I share things, Sort
of look askance and and look atit as a weakness and and, that
too, I'm more comfortable inthat.
That's cool.
If that's not your deal, noworries.
(09:55):
That's how I operate.
And that's how I, manage andlook at the world.
And and people are going togravitate that towards that or
not.
And that's okay too.
Michael (10:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I personally am finding myselfgravitating toward it because it
seems to.
Inherently give us the abilityto connect at a deeper level
because more people have thosefeelings and maybe historically
haven't felt that we couldexpress them out loud.
And, you know, sort of justgetting trapped in our I've just
(10:26):
experienced myself gettingtrapped in my mind of having
thoughts around my inadequaciesand my weaknesses.
And, it's hard for somebody toknow how to help you.
If you don't let them know thatyou need help, first of all, and
so it's a big hurdle toovercome.
But I like what you said, youknow, we all have our own
superpowers.
And, we also all on the flipside of that have our
(10:49):
weaknesses.
And, you know, there's, I thinkthere's kind of two different
ways you can look at life.
You can say, I'm going to, youknow, Keep on working on my
weaknesses or I'm going to workon my superpowers.
And I mean, it's not to say thatyou shouldn't always address
some of your weaknesses and tryto shore up some of your moral
deficiencies or things of thatnature.
But there's things that we justaren't inherently as good at,
(11:10):
you know, that we don't have ismaybe our talent or a skill
inherently is a one or a two outof 10.
Maybe you can get it up to afour or five if we try really
hard.
But, is it worth it, you know,or is it better to just find
someone who's already at a sevenor eight and help them grow to
10?
And that's kind of my mindset ishow do I surround myself with
some of these people that, Youknow, they have a greater
(11:31):
propensity towards success withone of these areas that I'm kind
of a failure at, for lack ofbetter words, or have failed
that repeatedly.
And it's not to say, I'm not afan of giving up on something,
but it is like, let's be smarterabout this and start to find
people who can help fill thosegaps.
And then collectively we allstart to level up.
And, I imagine that as a founderof a company, that's one of the
(11:54):
really important things.
And I mean, personally, I knowit's huge for me too, but, you
know, what's the journey beenlike with Ursus and, apologies
for not having looked ahead oftime, but how long ago did you,
found Ursus and what's thegrowth trajectory been like?
And if you don't mind justsharing about, you know, working
through some of these reallyinteresting times that we've had
(12:17):
with pandemic and thing of thatnature.
Jon (12:20):
Yeah let me, I'll answer that, but I want to go back to
your comment around.
We all have weaknesses.
It's part of the human conditionand you become a better, more
well rounded, human being.
If you work to findopportunities to work on some of
those weak areas of who you are,and that can be in who you,
(12:44):
know, I don't know, personalitytraits.
It could be skills.
I mean, I think of as, a man inmy fifties.
You know, thinking about myhealth, my mental health.
I want to find ways to continueto challenge and stretch my
brain.
So I'm doing things like tryingto learn Spanish, even though I
took six years in high schooland none of it really stuck and
dabbling with the piano andfinding ways to get out of my
(13:07):
comfort zone.
Knowing that's how I'm going tostretch.
Because what happens is whenyou, I believe, I don't know if
it's been scientifically proven,I bet it has, but my belief is
when you get out of your comfortzone and do things and that
aren't, you know, second natureand aren't your strengths, it
actually makes your strongerparts that much stronger.
I think the brain does somethingthere where it just, you know
(13:28):
you're creating, you know,whether it's brain cells or
whatever, or connections,there's just something that
happens there.
I, I know in, some of the prenotes that you sent to me, you
were talking about, you know,digital overload and, digital
dementia and that sort of thing.
Like, I know if I consciouslyunplug and say, I'm just going
(13:48):
to read today, it's a Saturdayor Sunday.
I'm just going to read.
I'm not gonna look at it.
I'm not gonna look at the TV.
I'm not gonna look at my read.
My brain just functions better,or if I spend some time on the
keyboards trying to do stuff, mybrain just functions better.
So, there's something to itthere, and I think we're
starting to figure out some ofthose neural patterns and
connections.
But it, anyways, I'm going downa rabbit hole, but for sure and
(14:09):
so that, to dovetail into yourquestion, I try to challenge my
team to get out of their comfortzone too.
That's where the magic happens,right?
If you do things that are hardfor you and that don't come
easy, it's going to make therest of your journey better.
And and that's hard.
It's hard to get it, to bechallenged and to be
uncomfortable.
It goes counterintuitive.
But it's true of
Michael (14:30):
everything.
Jon (14:30):
From the outside, if
Michael (14:32):
you said, Oh, the culture is, you know, we're
always doing hard things.
You know, some people be like,Oh, but are you really, you
know, like it's kind of, I don'tknow.
I almost feel sometimes peoplelook down on the people who are
on, a growth trajectory.
And I know that it's more sothat it's, they actually are
(14:52):
looking at sort of a mirror of,and they're seeing their selves
relative to what you might betrying to do.
You're trying to do somethingthat's hard and you're putting
this sort of culture of, Hey,we're going to be uncomfortable
because everybody else has beengravitating towards comfort.
And it totally reminds me ofMichael Easter, the comfort
(15:13):
crisis.
I'm not sure if that's a bookthat it's on your radar or not,
but, he talks about, you know,our aggressive pursuit of
comfort as one of the criticalfailings of society and, you
know, how we live in climatecontrolled.
You know, 70 degrees, everythingis kind of just like, it's built
around becoming more and morecomfortable.
(15:34):
And as we become more and morecomfortable, the scope of what
we believe is possible continuesto shrink because we're not
exposing ourselves to the outerlimits of what our potential is
and seeing, Hey, what else haspassed it?
Because you know, as much as Italked about, you know, our
shortcomings and not.
Overindexing on, our weaknesses.
I also think that it's not afixed level.
(15:56):
I do believe if you spend enoughtime drawing, even if you're not
a natural artist, you can getbetter at it.
And I think pretty much anythingin life, if you spend more time
and energy on it, you canimprove.
I haven't seen a lot of evidenceto suggest otherwise yet, but,
the, culture of doing hardthings and challenging yourself.
(16:16):
I imagine that's directlycorrelated with the success.
Have you had any sort of thing,you know, any challenges or
anecdotes that.
That stand out, you know,especially going through, you
know, the past few years hereand in such a competitive
industry, literally thousands ofcompetitors.
And, I think it's admirable.
(16:37):
Number one to get into theindustry, but that's yours.
Yeah.
Jon (16:42):
So there's my last count, 25, 000 staffing companies in
the U S alone, which is hard tobelieve
Michael (16:49):
when
Jon (16:49):
I started the business, I had so many of my friends and
colleagues cause I've been intechnology for, you know, almost
30 years now, and I was on theplumbing side of the internet.
And it was some great companies.
And then, you know, people gotwind that I was starting a
staffing company and I hadpeople come out and say like,
what are you doing?
Like, you might as well gobecome a lawyer.
(17:09):
Like people hate recruiters.
You know it's such acommoditized business and
there's so many out there andmost of them are terrible and
there's some truth to that.
But I, you know, so funny story,just to back up when I graduated
college, I was a psychology premed major and I decided I didn't
want to pursue medicine andpsychology seems too far out
(17:31):
there for me.
And I took 1 of these aptitudetests and the top job profession
that came back way back when Igraduated in 1992 was to be an
executive recruiter.
And I didn't really know whatback then and here I am fast
forward all these years and I'min the space to answer your
question about some of thestruggles.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, first of all,just starting a company and
(17:52):
surviving for the first coupleof years is really hard.
I had a co founder.
We, you know, had differentideas of what the business
should be.
You know, fortunately we partedamicably and are still friends.
But at the time that I wasbuying him out, You know, I had
to sell my house.
We were trying to get fundingfor the business and I laugh
because, you know, people willstill say to me like, Oh, you
started a lifestyle business.
(18:13):
How fun.
Then I'm like, well, what aboutthe part where I had to sell my
house or every two weeks I wasgoing to withdraw money from the
ATM to make payroll and drainingmy 401k and so, you know, but
all of that made, And COVID wascertainly a challenge.
I will never forget theconversations with my management
team and my CFO modeling thewhat if scenarios you know, what
(18:36):
if it completely goes away, youknow, what if it's sort of bad,
but not that bad last year hadits own set of challenges, the
market was tough, but throughall that, when you get to the
other side and through it.
And, you know, when we startedthis year, we went back to the
company, reminded them and said,look, We earned the scars of
last year.
It was a tough year and you sawa lot of people getting out of
the business.
(18:56):
A lot of people feeling sorryfor themselves.
We took it upon ourselves to, tothe, to take the challenge and
to get better.
And if we got better in adifficult environment, when
things are better, we're goingto be better.
Which kind of goes to what wewere talking about earlier.
If you stretch and get out ofyour comfort zone you're going
to grow.
And, so we've done that.
And and it's important to lookback and celebrate that too
(19:19):
because there was pain along theway.
It was not an easy thing to do,but we did it and and it was
worth it.
Michael (19:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
When you were talking aboutgetting better in a difficult
environment.
Jon (19:31):
Audio.
Now I can't hear you weird.
Michael (19:33):
Oh, you lost me.
Hey, check gone.
It's gone.
Let's see what happened here.
Now.
Can you hear me?
Nothing.
Jon (19:53):
Right now.
Michael (19:55):
Check, one, two.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, it's all right.
A little, bit there.
Jon (20:01):
My thing, for some reason, it tried to default to something
else, but no
Michael (20:05):
No big deal.
Well, Get her squared away.
But yeah, so getting better in adifficult environment, you
mentioned getting better in adifficult environment.
And lately I, think I've beenreally in my head trying to,
Delineate the difference betweenpositive pressure and sort of
negative stress because theoften answer I find myself in my
(20:30):
head or whether I'm talking topeople about, you know, let's
say, oh man, that sounds verystressful and, or you, sound
like you're stressed out.
And so then I have started to inmy head, think, oh, man, am I
stressed out?
Am I stressing?
Am I like anxious about this?
Or.
Alternatively, is there just amore challenging set of
(20:51):
circumstances, so externalpressure that forces me to
choose how I execute and, maybeforces me to do more with less,
which are words I hate to hear,but seems to be going around
and, have you found yourself atall and, Or do you, I guess,
agree that there's thisdifference between just how we
(21:13):
perceive it as this is pressure,but it has a positive impact on,
like, in your case, you said,we're going to get better
circumstantially, no matterwhat's happening here, or maybe
in spite of it, despite the,circumstances, you know, are, is
that something that you feellike has come from more personal
experiences, professionalexperiences?
(21:33):
Starts professional goes topersonal because one of the
things I mean, I'd like totransition some to some kind of
more like personally in yourlife.
What are you focused on andpassionate about and how is, how
does this all support it?
Jon (21:45):
I think they're all questions.
Michael (21:46):
I
Jon (21:47):
think they're all fine for better or for worse.
I'm chuckling because thatpressure versus stress is really
how you choose to interpret anddefine what's happening to you
and what you're going through.
It's a very much a double edgedsword because Pressure and
stress can be really greatmotivators, incredible
(22:08):
motivators, but they can also beincredibly destructive and
detrimental.
And there is such a fine linethat separates those two.
And I fall on either side oftenand sometimes, you know, in the
course of a day, if not an hourwhere it feels really stressful
or it feels really great becauseI love to compete and I love the
(22:29):
pressure.
It's, But I do believe it comes,some of it is from your
external, you know, if a clientis putting pressure on you or
your team is putting pressure onyour manager, that's part of it.
But most of it I think comesfrom internally.
And it also it, the way I liketo rationalize in my head, if I
(22:51):
start to go down the track thatI don't like is.
That there are the expectationsthat I set for myself and the
expectations that those that aredependent upon me have.
And those are two differentthings.
And and then the third one.
Michael (23:04):
Actually, that's so yeah, that, that was one of the
Inky Jonson.
I heard him in an interview talkabout it and he says
expectations.
He would say, those are theexternal forces on you.
And then he differentiates itand says a standard is what we
internally hold ourselves to.
And sometimes there's a glaringdifference.
And I think that's one thingthat I've found is.
(23:24):
My internal standards aresometimes much higher than the
expectations, but I am operatingunder the assumption that
sometimes the expectation is thestandard.
That's not accurate.
It's not
Jon (23:37):
accurate.
It does drive you to succeedbecause unfortunately a lot of
people haven't taken the time toreally identify or be aware of
what their own standards are.
Michael (23:48):
So
Jon (23:48):
they just kind of go and make it up.
And I, and we can talk aboutthat.
Cause I think that's also a byproduct of where you choose to
gravitate towards.
A lot of it is in yourupbringing, right?
There's the nature and nurtureconversation that goes around
that.
But you're right.
And I, think about that as amanager, my standards are not
going to be the same as myemployees.
That's not fair to them.
(24:08):
I have to set standards for thecompany in terms of what we
expect, but also appreciatethat.
And my standard is I'm going toget back to somebody here, you
know, and within five minutesand somebody else on the team
gets back in 15.
That's okay.
Like that's, you know, that's asimple example, but there's many
throughout the course of anygiven day.
And it's also, it's fluid, itchanges right?
(24:32):
Those standards and expectationsare not static they're
constantly changing andevolving, based on so many
factors.
So yeah, there's some push pullthere for sure.
Michael (24:43):
Yeah, so where does the path take you in these next,
these coming years?
You know, personally, what arethe things, the goals, the
ideals, that are the motivationsfor, you Running the company and
doing those things.
Like what's, what makes it allworth it for you?
Jon (25:00):
Well, Michael, I have high expectations.
Let me start there.
Michael (25:04):
Yeah.
Jon (25:05):
You want to go?
Michael (25:06):
I love it.
First of all, I love it.
Jon (25:10):
And I hopefully that translates and rolls out to the
rest of the company that theycan get you know, excited about
that.
Cause it's fun.
It's fun to have a challenge andit's fun to set high goals for
yourself.
So, you know, of the 25, 000staffing companies that are out
there last year in the U S therewere 262 that achieved over a
(25:31):
hundred million dollars inrevenue or more.
So it's a pretty small numberyou know, less than a
percentage.
And our goal is to be on thatlist.
And that's important for a fewreasons.
One is it sounds cool and it's anice number and it looks good on
paper, but more importantly,Yeah.
There's some validation to it.
And as we get closer to thatgoal, it'll allow us to continue
(25:53):
to invest and expand thebusiness into other areas,
either geographically orvertically, and we've already
done some of these things, inthe last few years, but it'll,
it hopefully continues toaccelerate that growth.
But.
As important as the growth is,it doesn't, and I say this to
the team constantly because Idon't want them to be misguided
(26:16):
in terms of where our prioritiesare.
The growth is a byproduct of thequality and the culture that we
have.
If we're doing the right things,the way that we believe they
should be done and buildingrelationships internally and
externally with our stakeholdersand and continuing to get
better.
And, you know, building trustand collaborating, communicating
(26:38):
and all those things, which iswhat our culture is about.
And it takes a lot of work, thegrowth and the results will
happen.
And that is a really hard thingto do sometimes.
And to put your trust into that,because a lot of times it takes
longer than you want it to.
A lot of times there areexternal factors that get in the
way of that, like a COVIDpandemic or, you know, a
challenging macro economicenvironment.
(26:59):
But if you stay true to that.
It's just going to happen.
And and I have to remind myselfof that constantly.
And I definitely have to remindmy employees, especially those
that haven't been through badeconomic environments to say,
like trust the process, and goodthings will happen.
It's really true.
It's true in business.
It's true in life.
Michael (27:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, in the throes of it, so tospeak of, building that trust
and in the process and tryingto.
On or D wire D program theimpatience and the instant
gratification that society seemsto feed us.
And, you know, I'm right on thethreshold generationally of you
(27:38):
know, very thankful that I'm notactually in the sort of newest
generation of the standardbeing.
You know, the Instagram ticktock, like, sort of, you know,
just these fast feet, what'sthe, it's like, it's just like
force fed comparisons and forcefed stimulus that it's
(28:01):
overwhelming to the brain, youknow, even if you're mature.
And that's a question.
I'm still questionable formyself, but like, even if you're
grown and you know, it's hardnot to be impacted negatively by
that stuff.
But, I would say, thankfully,over these past few years, I've
departed pretty heavily fromsocial media and some of those
(28:21):
types of platforms because I'vecome to realize that they have a
really negative impact.
And the, what you're justtalking about is like being
comfortable in the process andnot necessarily being
comfortable in the sense thatyou're not putting yourself
through very hard, challengingthings, but, you know, just
being okay with the fact thatthis is going to take time as
(28:43):
long as we persist and continueto do what we know is the right
activities.
I feel like that's, yeah, youknow, outside of, The
professional world, I would saymore importantly for my personal
than anything else it's, hard tochange as a person.
It's also hard to change as acompany sometimes and there's
those goals, whether it's ahundred million dollars or a
marathon or a marriage, youknow, all the things then in
(29:07):
life that I think, You know, areworth going after they take a
lot of time and persistence andpatience, you know, perspiration
to some extent
Jon (29:18):
in our society, not this generation, but our society has
become so impatient because of,you know, all the ways that we
have instant gratifications andI'm speaking about the Western
world, obviously.
And I agree with you.
I've taken a lot.
I've learned a lot.
In my discussions with, I callthem kids but young adults that
(29:39):
have graduated college and doingthe workforce.
And I, you know, my kids are ofthat age and you know just,
started working a couple ofyears ago.
And I've, coached a lot of kidsand a lot of family friends.
And so I talked to a lot ofthese kids.
And one of the things that Ikept hearing over and over again
is like, I'm a failure or I'm, Ishould know what I want to do,
(29:59):
but I don't.
And my counsel to them is like,look, you're the Instagram
highlight reel and everybodypuffing their chest out saying,
I'm going to become a doctor andI've always known or I'm going
to become a lawyer and I'm goingto become a banker.
Like, Nobody really knows atyour age what they really want
to do or at least a very fewpeople do the odds of those
(30:21):
people that, you know, trot offto law school or become invested
bankers, a high percentage ofthose going to go do something
else and you can pick anyprofession that's going to be
the case.
And it's a good reminder formyself, because when you, get
through that and you start tothink that's what reality is.
You've got to, you've got todetach and go back to what you
(30:41):
believe is truth.
And I think for younger peoplewho maybe don't have as much
life experience to draw on, it'sas important as ever before to
have good mentorship and peoplearound them that can help guide
them and give them somedirection about what reality
actually is.
And it's true for all of us,right?
In all aspects of our life.
(31:01):
I mean, the news, what do youwhat news do we trust today?
Michael (31:06):
Yeah, I mean, this is why I know it was great.
I knew I wanted you to come onthis show, but like this
conversation is like, you'retouching on so many things that
I know are just absolutely apart of what our ethos is, what
my beliefs are, but what we'retouching on right now, I think
is one of the most importantthings to be communicating is
just the pursuit of truth.
(31:27):
And how hard that is right nowbecause of such a variety of
quote unquote news and I have todo quote unquote because we just
know that a lot of it isn'ttruth and the, journalistic.
That's the right way to do it,not the pedigree the, just the
quality of journalism, I feellike has really diminished based
(31:47):
on the agenda of, you know,various political parties and
various sources being so just.
I hate to use the word corrupt,but I feel like that's the
accurate word where they're notreally compelled or incentivized
or you know, motivated to, toshare what is the truth.
It's there's so much differing,you know, confirmation bias that
(32:14):
exists out there withalgorithms, especially where
it's just.
Deepening the divide betweenpeople instead of finding the
common ground and the thingsthat we need to be focused on.
So the way it's
Jon (32:28):
the same discussion as we had earlier, it takes work and
you have to get out of yourcomfort zone to determine what
the truth is.
It's not an easy exercise.
And.
And too many of us want the easyway out and to not put in the
cycles to really understand whatthat looks like.
And that's a dangerous place tobe in.
So really important to havepeople that, you know, can help
(32:49):
guide, the thought process, notthe decision, but the thought
process about how to figure outwhat truth is and and what
values are and what struggles.
I mean, you asked me thequestion.
I don't think I answered it towhen you think about, you know,
Various generations and thestruggles that they've had and
whatnot.
I mean, there's a reason why thegreatest generation is called
(33:10):
the greatest generation.
They had to go fight a war andfortunately for the most part.
But that gives you a differentperspective and lens to look
through the world in your lifethan if you didn't have, and
everything you think is anentitlement it's, really hard.
So Yeah, I
Michael (33:30):
don't know exactly who says it, but the, you know, hard
times create great people,create easy times, create weak
people, create hard times andthat cycle, that pattern.
I don't know who would say, Imean, I know I've heard it
Robbins amongst other people,but it's, it is really good and
it's important to see andrecognize that, you know, I
(33:51):
think we have some of those hardtimes in front of us because on
the backs of the Greatestgeneration.
And, you know, a lot of themomentum, to borrow from the,
investment and, sort of,technical analysis world, like a
lot of the momentum has beengoing in the right direction for
a long time.
(34:11):
And I don't think it's like thistipping point as much as a
gradual decay, perhaps over thenext several years, but we're in
for I think an interesting nextfive to 10 years I'm.
All aboard for it.
And to your point earlier, it'slike in the face of these hard
times, let's commit to beingbetter.
Let's commit to the pursuit oftruth and the sharing of what is
(34:34):
important.
And I love your story.
I'm really interested incontinuing it.
So I'm hopeful that we'll get tohave you back on for another
episode and get some of mycolleagues, my peers on from the
show, because I was like, I'mdoing it on a Friday afternoon
because.
That, that's when it's going tobe the best time to do it.
But usually we'll record them inthe evenings, but I will commit.
(34:57):
I would love to get you back onthe show with them just to have
a little bit more, you know,different perspective than just
my stuff.
But man, we touched on so manygood things today.
You know, vulnerability andsupport systems.
And there's just the modeling,learning from great people that
are around you, and howimportant it is and.
My favorite quote is we all haveour own superpowers.
(35:19):
I think that's so important forus to focus on.
And any, things in closingthoughts that you have before we
wrap,
Jon (35:28):
first of all, thank you for having me on.
And I would love to meet yourcohost as well, too.
I've, listened to a few episodesand You guys have some good
banter and certainly somechemistry along the way.
So, and we could probably pick acouple of these threads and
continue to unravel them aswell, too.
So I appreciate being on and theperspective.
(35:48):
I think it's really important tohave these conversations and, to
share them with peers andespecially with people that are
starting their careers andentering into the, to the world
really important.
So.
Kudos and well done.
Michael (36:01):
Oh, great.
Jon Beck, everybody.
Thank you again so much forbeing on the show.
My, my esteem for you has risen.
I feel like I respect you evenmore after this conversation and
I'm sure it will continue in thefuture.
So thanks everybody forlistening and have a great week.
All right.
Well, let's just dive right in.
So welcome to episode 57 of thereclaiming man podcast.
Michael Beckwith here hostingtoday with an interview guest
Jon Beck.
An individual who I've beengetting to know over the past
couple of years, I reallyrespect both your intellect, who
(00:25):
you are as a person, moreimportantly, and the
accomplishments that you've had,you know, professionally, I'm
interested in diving in morepersonally to to hear about your
life and some of the otherpassions that you have outside
of work where Take care.
Kind of the context of ourrelationship was formed.
But yeah, welcome to the show,Jon.
Jon (00:43):
Michael, it's great to be here and I will reciprocate the
comments and feelings.
I think the first time you and Ichatted, we talked about, The
existence of extraterrestriallife forms, I think.
And I'm like, this is adifferent kind of dude, man.
We're not just talking,, we'reboth in staffing and, you know,
you get tired of talking aboutstaffing and we were going down
(01:04):
a bunch of rabbit holes, whichwas cool and, and appreciate how
it's all evolved and excited tobe here.
So.
Yeah,, my work identity is thefounder and CEO of Ursus.
We're a digital staffing firmthat focuses on technology and
creative.
And spoiler alert, we're aboutto launch a life sciences
practice here in a week or two,which we're excited about.
(01:25):
Business has been around fornine years, loving the journey,
which it is a journey.
Learned more in that time periodthan maybe at any point in my
career.
And yes, interested in talkingabout other things outside of
work as well.
Michael (01:38):
That's great.
And thanks for just sharing alittle bit about the
intersection of the professionalworld in the past couple of
years with my personal passionshas been increasing greatly.
And by design, I've, you know,we've talked a little bit about
on this show, and maybe we'llget to it with you as well, but
designing a life that you don'tneed to retire from.
(02:00):
And finding that integration ofthe work that we do with the
passions that we have.
And I feel that in you feel thatin the way that you talk about
what you do professionally.
And I'm curious to explore thata little bit more in this
conversation.
I know I've shared a little bitabout reclaiming man, but we
really focus on these threepillars of reclaiming our minds,
reclaiming our bodies.
(02:20):
Ultimately to reclaim freedom,and really start to embody the
values that we think are andshould be common across men,
across humanity.
So it's those types of deeperconversations that we've shared
in the past that I know willbuild a great conversation here.
So I think 1 of the 1stquestions that I have for you
as, a leader founder of a largecompany.
(02:44):
I think it's a large companyanyways, based on what you guys
are doing and the impact thatyou're having.
Can you share a little bit aboutwhat the journey was like before
you got to Ursus and,personally, what we're leading
up to some of those types ofdecisions, just the amount of.
Risk that's involved and how youbalance that out with the
(03:05):
opportunity, because I thinkit's a really good parallel into
the reclaiming freedomcomponent.
Jon (03:10):
Sure.
And to get to the first point ofstep off to say not, I want to
start a company.
I'm thinking about starting acompany.
Wouldn't it be cool to start acompany, but actually to start a
company took a lot of reflectionand life experience, both
positive and negative, to get tothat point where I really had at
(03:34):
least enough self confidence andcourage and self awareness to
say, I can do this still reallyscary.
And I, when I think back, youknow, and I, my, one of my
throwaway lines when I, whenpeople ask me about the company
is my only regret is I didn'tstart 10 years sooner, but I
don't know if I would have beenas effective, had I started 10
(03:57):
years sooner, I think, you know,the universe gives you what you
want and when you need it and itwas the right time.
The company that I was with wasacquired.
It was really an acqui hire.
We were lucky to get anacquisition done and I started
to look around for my nextcareer opportunity.
And, those, that, that itch inmy brain and my soul kept coming
(04:17):
back to me, like it's time to dosomething.
And and even with that, I, whenI started the company I, decided
to, go at it with a co founderwho I subsequently bought out.
Which all worked out in the end,but but yeah, no, it was, I had
to get to that point, through alot of self exploration and life
experience.
And I marvel at people thatstart careers when they're much
(04:39):
younger in their life in theirtwenties and after they
graduate.
And I think ignorance is blissfor a lot of those folks.
And there's that just, you know,youthful confidence and courage.
And, I maybe missed that windowand had to wait a little longer,
but it all worked out in theend.
Michael (04:56):
Yeah.
Two couple things that outthere, you know, you mentioned
self awareness is such animportant part of it.
And that's something that I feellike I struggled with, gosh,
until, and I still am strugglingwith in the sense of I'm working
on it and it's a progression anda journey.
But are there any things likespecifically that helped you
become more self aware?
(05:16):
I mean, of course, you're goingthrough experiences, you're
working at other companies andyou're.
Basically building somebodyelse's dream as I like to call
it until you start to dosomething for yourself and
you're, on that journey.
Now, you've gained this, likeexperience wisdom, like, are
there anything that stands outas like this pivotal type of
either a habit or I mean, somepeople talk about meditation,
(05:39):
other things, right?
What are the, some of thecomponents of, building self
awareness and getting to thatrealization of, okay, I want to
start a company and not onlystart a company, I know I'm
going to be successful doing it.
Jon (05:53):
I think first of all, I've been, I was very fortunate
throughout my career to workwith some really outstanding
leaders and mentors and be partof management teams that were
just exceptional, not just in,from the business side, but just
good humans.
There were a few duds on the wayto.
And I think as time carried onand I moved from company to
(06:18):
company, I started to see apattern where, I understood a
lot of the things that werehappening.
I obviously was getting moresavvy just based on experience,
my own accomplishments, but alsorealizing that, a lot of the
people that I was working forwere as vulnerable and.
(06:42):
Maybe exposed and scared andneeding help as I would be if I
took that role myself and nowsitting on the other side of
that.
I think it's really healthy toshow some vulnerability to my
team.
I don't have all the answers.
I do ask for help.
And so I think that was.
There wasn't one epiphany alongthe way, but I think I just
started to realize look, I'mnot, there's never going to be
(07:05):
the right time to start.
So I'm never going to have allthe answers.
I'm never going to have all theskills, but if I start the
journey, I'm going to learn, andI have enough people in my
ecosystem that I can go lean onand ask for help the same way
that I've helped people on theway that I'll be able to figure
it out.
And I, that, that was reallywhat gave me enough confidence
at that point to say I can go dothis.
Michael (07:25):
Yeah.
But that's still
Jon (07:27):
scary.
Michael (07:27):
Right.
Yeah, and that's almost, well,not almost, it's
counterintuitive, you know,borderline paradoxical that
vulnerability and with that selfawareness to say oh, I can't do
everything, I need to have thesupport system around me, but
that vulnerability as a strengthis something that I, also think
is Really important to talkabout as men and to, diverge
(07:51):
from some of the historicalstereotypes of men having the
sort of unbreakable exteriorshell and being the tough
personality or that type ofpersona.
I think that I felt leastgrowing up anyways, was a big
part of what the expectation wasfrom society.
Versus, you know, sort of thisinternal standard that I have.
(08:11):
And so those are two differentthings that I was hoping to
actually include in theconversation.
So it's a good, transition.
But how do we take that step ofbecoming vulnerable?
It's feel scary, but in doingso, it, you know, can get
translated to strength but, canshare a little bit more about
that.
Jon (08:30):
I always had it within me.
My mom, Was a psychologist youknow, graduated an amazing
story.
She went back to college and Iwas eight or nine and went back
and got her undergraduate andthen her degree.
And even before she went back toschool, she just has incredible
emotional IQ.
I believe that, you know, we allhave our own superpowers and her
(08:52):
ability to understand people andthe complexities of people and
the inner workings betweenpeople was her superpower.
And I think I got some of thatthrough her DNA.
So I, I always had, I think thatawareness and always was,
vulnerable in my personal life,but in my professional life it,
it didn't seem like that wasacceptable and maybe we've
(09:14):
evolved over the last fewdecades and I think increasing
with increasing velocity where.
Men now, more men in leadershippositions, it's acceptable to do
that.
Certainly the stereotypes of thefifties and sixties and
seventies and even eighties,there, there was no room for
that in a lot of my mentors.
That's how I was mentored.
(09:34):
So, and that's a positive forsure.
So, not everyone identifies withit.
I have plenty of peers of minethat when I share things, Sort
of look askance and and look atit as a weakness and and, that
too, I'm more comfortable inthat.
That's cool.
If that's not your deal, noworries.
(09:55):
That's how I operate.
And that's how I, manage andlook at the world.
And and people are going togravitate that towards that or
not.
And that's okay too.
Michael (10:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I personally am finding myselfgravitating toward it because it
seems to.
Inherently give us the abilityto connect at a deeper level
because more people have thosefeelings and maybe historically
haven't felt that we couldexpress them out loud.
And, you know, sort of justgetting trapped in our I've just
(10:26):
experienced myself gettingtrapped in my mind of having
thoughts around my inadequaciesand my weaknesses.
And, it's hard for somebody toknow how to help you.
If you don't let them know thatyou need help, first of all, and
so it's a big hurdle toovercome.
But I like what you said, youknow, we all have our own
superpowers.
And, we also all on the flipside of that have our
(10:49):
weaknesses.
And, you know, there's, I thinkthere's kind of two different
ways you can look at life.
You can say, I'm going to, youknow, Keep on working on my
weaknesses or I'm going to workon my superpowers.
And I mean, it's not to say thatyou shouldn't always address
some of your weaknesses and tryto shore up some of your moral
deficiencies or things of thatnature.
But there's things that we justaren't inherently as good at,
(11:10):
you know, that we don't have ismaybe our talent or a skill
inherently is a one or a two outof 10.
Maybe you can get it up to afour or five if we try really
hard.
But, is it worth it, you know,or is it better to just find
someone who's already at a sevenor eight and help them grow to
10?
And that's kind of my mindset ishow do I surround myself with
some of these people that, Youknow, they have a greater
(11:31):
propensity towards success withone of these areas that I'm kind
of a failure at, for lack ofbetter words, or have failed
that repeatedly.
And it's not to say, I'm not afan of giving up on something,
but it is like, let's be smarterabout this and start to find
people who can help fill thosegaps.
And then collectively we allstart to level up.
And, I imagine that as a founderof a company, that's one of the
(11:54):
really important things.
And I mean, personally, I knowit's huge for me too, but, you
know, what's the journey beenlike with Ursus and, apologies
for not having looked ahead oftime, but how long ago did you,
found Ursus and what's thegrowth trajectory been like?
And if you don't mind justsharing about, you know, working
through some of these reallyinteresting times that we've had
(12:17):
with pandemic and thing of thatnature.
Jon (12:20):
Yeah let me, I'll answer that, but I want to go back to
your comment around.
We all have weaknesses.
It's part of the human conditionand you become a better, more
well rounded, human being.
If you work to findopportunities to work on some of
those weak areas of who you are,and that can be in who you,
(12:44):
know, I don't know, personalitytraits.
It could be skills.
I mean, I think of as, a man inmy fifties.
You know, thinking about myhealth, my mental health.
I want to find ways to continueto challenge and stretch my
brain.
So I'm doing things like tryingto learn Spanish, even though I
took six years in high schooland none of it really stuck and
dabbling with the piano andfinding ways to get out of my
(13:07):
comfort zone.
Knowing that's how I'm going tostretch.
Because what happens is whenyou, I believe, I don't know if
it's been scientifically proven,I bet it has, but my belief is
when you get out of your comfortzone and do things and that
aren't, you know, second natureand aren't your strengths, it
actually makes your strongerparts that much stronger.
I think the brain does somethingthere where it just, you know
(13:28):
you're creating, you know,whether it's brain cells or
whatever, or connections,there's just something that
happens there.
I, I know in, some of the prenotes that you sent to me, you
were talking about, you know,digital overload and, digital
dementia and that sort of thing.
Like, I know if I consciouslyunplug and say, I'm just going
(13:48):
to read today, it's a Saturdayor Sunday.
I'm just going to read.
I'm not gonna look at it.
I'm not gonna look at the TV.
I'm not gonna look at my read.
My brain just functions better,or if I spend some time on the
keyboards trying to do stuff, mybrain just functions better.
So, there's something to itthere, and I think we're
starting to figure out some ofthose neural patterns and
connections.
But it, anyways, I'm going downa rabbit hole, but for sure and
(14:09):
so that, to dovetail into yourquestion, I try to challenge my
team to get out of their comfortzone too.
That's where the magic happens,right?
If you do things that are hardfor you and that don't come
easy, it's going to make therest of your journey better.
And and that's hard.
It's hard to get it, to bechallenged and to be
uncomfortable.
It goes counterintuitive.
But it's true of
Michael (14:30):
everything.
Jon (14:30):
From the outside, if
Michael (14:32):
you said, Oh, the culture is, you know, we're
always doing hard things.
You know, some people be like,Oh, but are you really, you
know, like it's kind of, I don'tknow.
I almost feel sometimes peoplelook down on the people who are
on, a growth trajectory.
And I know that it's more sothat it's, they actually are
(14:52):
looking at sort of a mirror of,and they're seeing their selves
relative to what you might betrying to do.
You're trying to do somethingthat's hard and you're putting
this sort of culture of, Hey,we're going to be uncomfortable
because everybody else has beengravitating towards comfort.
And it totally reminds me ofMichael Easter, the comfort
(15:13):
crisis.
I'm not sure if that's a bookthat it's on your radar or not,
but, he talks about, you know,our aggressive pursuit of
comfort as one of the criticalfailings of society and, you
know, how we live in climatecontrolled.
You know, 70 degrees, everythingis kind of just like, it's built
around becoming more and morecomfortable.
(15:34):
And as we become more and morecomfortable, the scope of what
we believe is possible continuesto shrink because we're not
exposing ourselves to the outerlimits of what our potential is
and seeing, Hey, what else haspassed it?
Because you know, as much as Italked about, you know, our
shortcomings and not.
Overindexing on, our weaknesses.
I also think that it's not afixed level.
(15:56):
I do believe if you spend enoughtime drawing, even if you're not
a natural artist, you can getbetter at it.
And I think pretty much anythingin life, if you spend more time
and energy on it, you canimprove.
I haven't seen a lot of evidenceto suggest otherwise yet, but,
the, culture of doing hardthings and challenging yourself.
(16:16):
I imagine that's directlycorrelated with the success.
Have you had any sort of thing,you know, any challenges or
anecdotes that.
That stand out, you know,especially going through, you
know, the past few years hereand in such a competitive
industry, literally thousands ofcompetitors.
And, I think it's admirable.
(16:37):
Number one to get into theindustry, but that's yours.
Yeah.
Jon (16:42):
So there's my last count, 25, 000 staffing companies in
the U S alone, which is hard tobelieve
Michael (16:49):
when
Jon (16:49):
I started the business, I had so many of my friends and
colleagues cause I've been intechnology for, you know, almost
30 years now, and I was on theplumbing side of the internet.
And it was some great companies.
And then, you know, people gotwind that I was starting a
staffing company and I hadpeople come out and say like,
what are you doing?
Like, you might as well gobecome a lawyer.
(17:09):
Like people hate recruiters.
You know it's such acommoditized business and
there's so many out there andmost of them are terrible and
there's some truth to that.
But I, you know, so funny story,just to back up when I graduated
college, I was a psychology premed major and I decided I didn't
want to pursue medicine andpsychology seems too far out
(17:31):
there for me.
And I took 1 of these aptitudetests and the top job profession
that came back way back when Igraduated in 1992 was to be an
executive recruiter.
And I didn't really know whatback then and here I am fast
forward all these years and I'min the space to answer your
question about some of thestruggles.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, first of all,just starting a company and
(17:52):
surviving for the first coupleof years is really hard.
I had a co founder.
We, you know, had differentideas of what the business
should be.
You know, fortunately we partedamicably and are still friends.
But at the time that I wasbuying him out, You know, I had
to sell my house.
We were trying to get fundingfor the business and I laugh
because, you know, people willstill say to me like, Oh, you
started a lifestyle business.
(18:13):
How fun.
Then I'm like, well, what aboutthe part where I had to sell my
house or every two weeks I wasgoing to withdraw money from the
ATM to make payroll and drainingmy 401k and so, you know, but
all of that made, And COVID wascertainly a challenge.
I will never forget theconversations with my management
team and my CFO modeling thewhat if scenarios you know, what
(18:36):
if it completely goes away, youknow, what if it's sort of bad,
but not that bad last year hadits own set of challenges, the
market was tough, but throughall that, when you get to the
other side and through it.
And, you know, when we startedthis year, we went back to the
company, reminded them and said,look, We earned the scars of
last year.
It was a tough year and you sawa lot of people getting out of
the business.
(18:56):
A lot of people feeling sorryfor themselves.
We took it upon ourselves to, tothe, to take the challenge and
to get better.
And if we got better in adifficult environment, when
things are better, we're goingto be better.
Which kind of goes to what wewere talking about earlier.
If you stretch and get out ofyour comfort zone you're going
to grow.
And, so we've done that.
And and it's important to lookback and celebrate that too
(19:19):
because there was pain along theway.
It was not an easy thing to do,but we did it and and it was
worth it.
Michael (19:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
When you were talking aboutgetting better in a difficult
environment.
Jon (19:31):
Audio.
Now I can't hear you weird.
Michael (19:33):
Oh, you lost me.
Hey, check gone.
It's gone.
Let's see what happened here.
Now.
Can you hear me?
Nothing.
Jon (19:53):
Right now.
Michael (19:55):
Check, one, two.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, it's all right.
A little, bit there.
Jon (20:01):
My thing, for some reason, it tried to default to something
else, but no
Michael (20:05):
No big deal.
Well, Get her squared away.
But yeah, so getting better in adifficult environment, you
mentioned getting better in adifficult environment.
And lately I, think I've beenreally in my head trying to,
Delineate the difference betweenpositive pressure and sort of
negative stress because theoften answer I find myself in my
(20:30):
head or whether I'm talking topeople about, you know, let's
say, oh man, that sounds verystressful and, or you, sound
like you're stressed out.
And so then I have started to inmy head, think, oh, man, am I
stressed out?
Am I stressing?
Am I like anxious about this?
Or.
Alternatively, is there just amore challenging set of
(20:51):
circumstances, so externalpressure that forces me to
choose how I execute and, maybeforces me to do more with less,
which are words I hate to hear,but seems to be going around
and, have you found yourself atall and, Or do you, I guess,
agree that there's thisdifference between just how we
(21:13):
perceive it as this is pressure,but it has a positive impact on,
like, in your case, you said,we're going to get better
circumstantially, no matterwhat's happening here, or maybe
in spite of it, despite the,circumstances, you know, are, is
that something that you feellike has come from more personal
experiences, professionalexperiences?
(21:33):
Starts professional goes topersonal because one of the
things I mean, I'd like totransition some to some kind of
more like personally in yourlife.
What are you focused on andpassionate about and how is, how
does this all support it?
Jon (21:45):
I think they're all questions.
Michael (21:46):
I
Jon (21:47):
think they're all fine for better or for worse.
I'm chuckling because thatpressure versus stress is really
how you choose to interpret anddefine what's happening to you
and what you're going through.
It's a very much a double edgedsword because Pressure and
stress can be really greatmotivators, incredible
(22:08):
motivators, but they can also beincredibly destructive and
detrimental.
And there is such a fine linethat separates those two.
And I fall on either side oftenand sometimes, you know, in the
course of a day, if not an hourwhere it feels really stressful
or it feels really great becauseI love to compete and I love the
(22:29):
pressure.
It's, But I do believe it comes,some of it is from your
external, you know, if a clientis putting pressure on you or
your team is putting pressure onyour manager, that's part of it.
But most of it I think comesfrom internally.
And it also it, the way I liketo rationalize in my head, if I
(22:51):
start to go down the track thatI don't like is.
That there are the expectationsthat I set for myself and the
expectations that those that aredependent upon me have.
And those are two differentthings.
And and then the third one.
Michael (23:04):
Actually, that's so yeah, that, that was one of the
Inky Jonson.
I heard him in an interview talkabout it and he says
expectations.
He would say, those are theexternal forces on you.
And then he differentiates itand says a standard is what we
internally hold ourselves to.
And sometimes there's a glaringdifference.
And I think that's one thingthat I've found is.
(23:24):
My internal standards aresometimes much higher than the
expectations, but I am operatingunder the assumption that
sometimes the expectation is thestandard.
That's not accurate.
It's not
Jon (23:37):
accurate.
It does drive you to succeedbecause unfortunately a lot of
people haven't taken the time toreally identify or be aware of
what their own standards are.
Michael (23:48):
So
Jon (23:48):
they just kind of go and make it up.
And I, and we can talk aboutthat.
Cause I think that's also a byproduct of where you choose to
gravitate towards.
A lot of it is in yourupbringing, right?
There's the nature and nurtureconversation that goes around
that.
But you're right.
And I, think about that as amanager, my standards are not
going to be the same as myemployees.
That's not fair to them.
(24:08):
I have to set standards for thecompany in terms of what we
expect, but also appreciatethat.
And my standard is I'm going toget back to somebody here, you
know, and within five minutesand somebody else on the team
gets back in 15.
That's okay.
Like that's, you know, that's asimple example, but there's many
throughout the course of anygiven day.
And it's also, it's fluid, itchanges right?
(24:32):
Those standards and expectationsare not static they're
constantly changing andevolving, based on so many
factors.
So yeah, there's some push pullthere for sure.
Michael (24:43):
Yeah, so where does the path take you in these next,
these coming years?
You know, personally, what arethe things, the goals, the
ideals, that are the motivationsfor, you Running the company and
doing those things.
Like what's, what makes it allworth it for you?
Jon (25:00):
Well, Michael, I have high expectations.
Let me start there.
Michael (25:04):
Yeah.
Jon (25:05):
You want to go?
Michael (25:06):
I love it.
First of all, I love it.
Jon (25:10):
And I hopefully that translates and rolls out to the
rest of the company that theycan get you know, excited about
that.
Cause it's fun.
It's fun to have a challenge andit's fun to set high goals for
yourself.
So, you know, of the 25, 000staffing companies that are out
there last year in the U S therewere 262 that achieved over a
(25:31):
hundred million dollars inrevenue or more.
So it's a pretty small numberyou know, less than a
percentage.
And our goal is to be on thatlist.
And that's important for a fewreasons.
One is it sounds cool and it's anice number and it looks good on
paper, but more importantly,Yeah.
There's some validation to it.
And as we get closer to thatgoal, it'll allow us to continue
(25:53):
to invest and expand thebusiness into other areas,
either geographically orvertically, and we've already
done some of these things, inthe last few years, but it'll,
it hopefully continues toaccelerate that growth.
But.
As important as the growth is,it doesn't, and I say this to
the team constantly because Idon't want them to be misguided
(26:16):
in terms of where our prioritiesare.
The growth is a byproduct of thequality and the culture that we
have.
If we're doing the right things,the way that we believe they
should be done and buildingrelationships internally and
externally with our stakeholdersand and continuing to get
better.
And, you know, building trustand collaborating, communicating
(26:38):
and all those things, which iswhat our culture is about.
And it takes a lot of work, thegrowth and the results will
happen.
And that is a really hard thingto do sometimes.
And to put your trust into that,because a lot of times it takes
longer than you want it to.
A lot of times there areexternal factors that get in the
way of that, like a COVIDpandemic or, you know, a
challenging macro economicenvironment.
(26:59):
But if you stay true to that.
It's just going to happen.
And and I have to remind myselfof that constantly.
And I definitely have to remindmy employees, especially those
that haven't been through badeconomic environments to say,
like trust the process, and goodthings will happen.
It's really true.
It's true in business.
It's true in life.
Michael (27:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, in the throes of it, so tospeak of, building that trust
and in the process and tryingto.
On or D wire D program theimpatience and the instant
gratification that society seemsto feed us.
And, you know, I'm right on thethreshold generationally of you
(27:38):
know, very thankful that I'm notactually in the sort of newest
generation of the standardbeing.
You know, the Instagram ticktock, like, sort of, you know,
just these fast feet, what'sthe, it's like, it's just like
force fed comparisons and forcefed stimulus that it's
(28:01):
overwhelming to the brain, youknow, even if you're mature.
And that's a question.
I'm still questionable formyself, but like, even if you're
grown and you know, it's hardnot to be impacted negatively by
that stuff.
But, I would say, thankfully,over these past few years, I've
departed pretty heavily fromsocial media and some of those
(28:21):
types of platforms because I'vecome to realize that they have a
really negative impact.
And the, what you're justtalking about is like being
comfortable in the process andnot necessarily being
comfortable in the sense thatyou're not putting yourself
through very hard, challengingthings, but, you know, just
being okay with the fact thatthis is going to take time as
(28:43):
long as we persist and continueto do what we know is the right
activities.
I feel like that's, yeah, youknow, outside of, The
professional world, I would saymore importantly for my personal
than anything else it's, hard tochange as a person.
It's also hard to change as acompany sometimes and there's
those goals, whether it's ahundred million dollars or a
marathon or a marriage, youknow, all the things then in
(29:07):
life that I think, You know, areworth going after they take a
lot of time and persistence andpatience, you know, perspiration
to some extent
Jon (29:18):
in our society, not this generation, but our society has
become so impatient because of,you know, all the ways that we
have instant gratifications andI'm speaking about the Western
world, obviously.
And I agree with you.
I've taken a lot.
I've learned a lot.
In my discussions with, I callthem kids but young adults that
(29:39):
have graduated college and doingthe workforce.
And I, you know, my kids are ofthat age and you know just,
started working a couple ofyears ago.
And I've, coached a lot of kidsand a lot of family friends.
And so I talked to a lot ofthese kids.
And one of the things that Ikept hearing over and over again
is like, I'm a failure or I'm, Ishould know what I want to do,
(29:59):
but I don't.
And my counsel to them is like,look, you're the Instagram
highlight reel and everybodypuffing their chest out saying,
I'm going to become a doctor andI've always known or I'm going
to become a lawyer and I'm goingto become a banker.
Like, Nobody really knows atyour age what they really want
to do or at least a very fewpeople do the odds of those
(30:21):
people that, you know, trot offto law school or become invested
bankers, a high percentage ofthose going to go do something
else and you can pick anyprofession that's going to be
the case.
And it's a good reminder formyself, because when you, get
through that and you start tothink that's what reality is.
You've got to, you've got todetach and go back to what you
(30:41):
believe is truth.
And I think for younger peoplewho maybe don't have as much
life experience to draw on, it'sas important as ever before to
have good mentorship and peoplearound them that can help guide
them and give them somedirection about what reality
actually is.
And it's true for all of us,right?
In all aspects of our life.
(31:01):
I mean, the news, what do youwhat news do we trust today?
Michael (31:06):
Yeah, I mean, this is why I know it was great.
I knew I wanted you to come onthis show, but like this
conversation is like, you'retouching on so many things that
I know are just absolutely apart of what our ethos is, what
my beliefs are, but what we'retouching on right now, I think
is one of the most importantthings to be communicating is
just the pursuit of truth.
(31:27):
And how hard that is right nowbecause of such a variety of
quote unquote news and I have todo quote unquote because we just
know that a lot of it isn'ttruth and the, journalistic.
That's the right way to do it,not the pedigree the, just the
quality of journalism, I feellike has really diminished based
(31:47):
on the agenda of, you know,various political parties and
various sources being so just.
I hate to use the word corrupt,but I feel like that's the
accurate word where they're notreally compelled or incentivized
or you know, motivated to, toshare what is the truth.
It's there's so much differing,you know, confirmation bias that
(32:14):
exists out there withalgorithms, especially where
it's just.
Deepening the divide betweenpeople instead of finding the
common ground and the thingsthat we need to be focused on.
So the way it's
Jon (32:28):
the same discussion as we had earlier, it takes work and
you have to get out of yourcomfort zone to determine what
the truth is.
It's not an easy exercise.
And.
And too many of us want the easyway out and to not put in the
cycles to really understand whatthat looks like.
And that's a dangerous place tobe in.
So really important to havepeople that, you know, can help
(32:49):
guide, the thought process, notthe decision, but the thought
process about how to figure outwhat truth is and and what
values are and what struggles.
I mean, you asked me thequestion.
I don't think I answered it towhen you think about, you know,
Various generations and thestruggles that they've had and
whatnot.
I mean, there's a reason why thegreatest generation is called
(33:10):
the greatest generation.
They had to go fight a war andfortunately for the most part.
But that gives you a differentperspective and lens to look
through the world in your lifethan if you didn't have, and
everything you think is anentitlement it's, really hard.
So Yeah, I
Michael (33:30):
don't know exactly who says it, but the, you know, hard
times create great people,create easy times, create weak
people, create hard times andthat cycle, that pattern.
I don't know who would say, Imean, I know I've heard it
Robbins amongst other people,but it's, it is really good and
it's important to see andrecognize that, you know, I
(33:51):
think we have some of those hardtimes in front of us because on
the backs of the Greatestgeneration.
And, you know, a lot of themomentum, to borrow from the,
investment and, sort of,technical analysis world, like a
lot of the momentum has beengoing in the right direction for
a long time.
(34:11):
And I don't think it's like thistipping point as much as a
gradual decay, perhaps over thenext several years, but we're in
for I think an interesting nextfive to 10 years I'm.
All aboard for it.
And to your point earlier, it'slike in the face of these hard
times, let's commit to beingbetter.
Let's commit to the pursuit oftruth and the sharing of what is
(34:34):
important.
And I love your story.
I'm really interested incontinuing it.
So I'm hopeful that we'll get tohave you back on for another
episode and get some of mycolleagues, my peers on from the
show, because I was like, I'mdoing it on a Friday afternoon
because.
That, that's when it's going tobe the best time to do it.
But usually we'll record them inthe evenings, but I will commit.
(34:57):
I would love to get you back onthe show with them just to have
a little bit more, you know,different perspective than just
my stuff.
But man, we touched on so manygood things today.
You know, vulnerability andsupport systems.
And there's just the modeling,learning from great people that
are around you, and howimportant it is and.
My favorite quote is we all haveour own superpowers.
(35:19):
I think that's so important forus to focus on.
And any, things in closingthoughts that you have before we
wrap,
Jon (35:28):
first of all, thank you for having me on.
And I would love to meet yourcohost as well, too.
I've, listened to a few episodesand You guys have some good
banter and certainly somechemistry along the way.
So, and we could probably pick acouple of these threads and
continue to unravel them aswell, too.
So I appreciate being on and theperspective.
(35:48):
I think it's really important tohave these conversations and, to
share them with peers andespecially with people that are
starting their careers andentering into the, to the world
really important.
So.
Kudos and well done.
Michael (36:01):
Oh, great.
Jon Beck, everybody.
Thank you again so much forbeing on the show.
My, my esteem for you has risen.
I feel like I respect you evenmore after this conversation and
I'm sure it will continue in thefuture.
So thanks everybody forlistening and have a great week.
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