94: Trying to End an Epidemic

Episode Transcript
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JJ Janflone (00:08):
Hey everybody, this is the legal disclaimer where I
tell you that the views thoughtsand opinions shared on this
podcast blog solely to ourguests and hosts and not
necessarily Brady or Brady'saffiliates. Please note this
podcast contains discussions ofviolence that some people may
find disturbing. It's okay -- wefind it disturbing too.
Hey everybody. Welcome back toanother episode of "Red, Blue

(00:42):
and Brady." Today, Kelly and Iare so excited to bring you
audio from our live event, theBrady book club The Violence
Inside Us. As we covered inEpisode 90, The Violence Inside
Us, is a wonderful book writtenby Senator Chris Murphy. Today
we're getting deeper into thebook, why needed to be written
why it matters and where we gofrom here. Kelly, Senator Murphy
and I are joined by Kris Brown,President Brady and Christian

(01:04):
Heyne Brady's VP of policy andyou know, frequent podcast
guests. Then in our"unbelievable but..." segment,
Kelly and I talk about why gunsdon't belong in children's bags,
seems obvious, I know. And inour news wrap up, I'm
highlighting an increase in gunsales and the latest
developments in micro stamping.
Alright, everybody, thank you somuch for being here today. I'm

(01:26):
going to go ahead and haveeverybody introduce themselves
maybe starting with you, Chris.
And you prefer Chris, right? NotSenator Murphy?

Sen. Chris Murphy (01:34):
I do if you, if you can manage it.

I will, I put a, I put a post it so I will know.

It's a lot fewer syllables than senator.

So okay, so Chris, I'd love to start with an
overview of what prompted you toget involved in gun violence
prevention, and then to spend, Ibelieve it was a little over two
years, putting together, youknow, this fantastic book on gun
violence, and then Americanviolence more broadly.

And first of all, I love that you have a tab.
I don't think I've seen thatmany tabs in a book before.
That's pretty impressive. Wow.

Its a habit leftover from grad school, I
have a tab problem. Everyone atBrady knows.

Well, a thank you everybody for having me on
to, JJ and Kris and Kelly andChristian, really looking
forward to our time togethertonight. And thank you for
giving me the opportunity totalk about this book. You know,
in many ways, this book is anattempt to give people a visual
into what the last seven yearsof my life have been. And I feel

(02:34):
as if I'm desperately trying tomake up for lost time. While,
Brady has been in this fight fordecades, one of the most
successful anti-gun violencemovements in the history of this
country, I wasn't working inthis space prior to 2013. And it
was two events that I detail inthis book, which caused my

(02:55):
awakening. First, obviously, themurder of 20 kids in Sandy Hook,
Connecticut changed my lifeforever. But then, about a month
and a half later, I'm just swornin as senator for all of
Connecticut, I visit the northend of Hartford for the first
time, and I meet with a group ofparents of gun violence victims
in the poorest section ofHartford, the largely

(03:17):
African-American North End, andthey are furious. They are
furious at me, right. They justcannot understand why I have
been in public life for over adecade and I was just showing up
for the first time, that it tookthe murder of white children in
a white suburb of Connecticut,for me to start asking questions
about what was happening inHartford, and I was mortified by

(03:39):
that. And I set out to try toremedy what had been a failing,
by me. And so I've spent thelast seven years trying to, you
know, not just understand whatdrives these mass shootings, but
try to understand the entireepidemic of American violence.
And this book is, you know,first and foremost, that story,
the history of American violencegoing all the way back to our

(04:01):
founding, but also a discussionabout what we've learned and how
we've learned to control it,what policies are impactful. And
then throughout the book is, youknow, my personal journey, I try
to be as, you know, as honest asI can about how I think that
I've measured up, and the timesthat I haven't during this

(04:24):
period of my political career.
And, again, the hope is, by theend, folks who want to become a
little bit more educatedactivists, a little bit more
forceful activists, will find inthis book, the evidence to make
this case for the changes thatwe all support, a little bit
more effectively. So that's sortof how I came to write this book
as a tool, as a as a guide, butalso as a means for me to

(04:49):
compile a lot of what I'velearned.

Kelly Sampson (04:52):
Chris, in the book, you talk about the turning
points of Sandy Hook andParkland as sort of critical
moments in the fight against gunviolence. And yet, we still
haven't seen a massive change onthe national level. So I'm
wondering if you could talk alittle bit about those events,
and what's happened, as well asthe political groups and
lobbying groups are trying toblock that legislation. And I

(05:14):
love to hear from Kris Brown onthat as well.

Yeah, I'll start. You know, I think the one
thing that's really mostfascinating to me about the
research I did in getting readyfor this book, something that I
think I knew a little bit about,but learned more about, is how
impactful changes in gun lawsactually are. And I think that's
just important for us all toknow as we move forward on this
advocacy. So, American violencerates over the last 100 years,

look like this (05:41):
up, suddenly down, back up again, suddenly
down again. And those twomoments where violence rates
start to plummet, notcoincidentally, come after the
two most significant anti-gunviolence measures passed by
Congress in the last 100 years.
The two earliest firearmscontrol acts of the late 1930s,

(06:03):
and then the Brady Bill and theban on assault weapons in the
mid 1990s. And so we have thisevidence that I sort of lay out
in detail in this book, thatwhen we pursue and enact change,
it matters. And it doesn't justmatter for handgun violence, it
sends a moral signal to thenation, that the highest levels
of leadership in this countryare taking the issue of violence

(06:26):
seriously. And that legislation,in the late 30s, in the mid 90s,
helps to reset norms forbehavior. And so I just want
people to understand howimpactful it's going to be when
we finally get this next majoranti-gun violence bill passed.
But as you mentioned, you know,the NRA just built up a
political juggernaut, from thesort of mid 1970s, when these

(06:47):
sort of radical anti-governmentright wingers take over the NRA,
until Sandy Hook. And, you know,for much of that time, Brady had
gotten some big wins, but it wasbasically Brady, and Brady
alone. And we now have all ofthese partners, that working
with Brady, everybody feels alittle bit different lane,

(07:07):
everybody sort of works togetheron big projects, we've now been
able to build a politicalinfrastructure that's just as
powerful, probably more powerfulright now than the gun lobby is,
and that's why we're starting towin in state legislatures. We're
on the precipice of winning atthe congressional level. But we
just had to build up a bigenough political movement, that

(07:28):
we could rival the gun lobby,and we can talk more in depth
about how we all did that. Butwe're, we're at that point, I
think now.

Kris Brown (07:36):
I can't say it better than my friend Chris just
answered that question, really.
Except to say that, I think,what happens in the states is,
is equally important, becausethat builds momentum over time.
As a Virginian and I feel thisacutely, because you couldn't
have predicted 5, 6, 7 yearsago, that we would have a

(07:56):
General Assembly elected, thatis a gun violence prevention,
majority General Assembly, andthat you would have a governor
having been elected in 2017,that exit polls show in the
Commonwealth of Virginia, thetop two reasons that he was
elected were health care and gunviolence prevention. That's a

(08:17):
mandate. And indeed, thelegislature reacted with that.
We have seven new bills signedinto law in the Commonwealth of
Virginia around this issue. Andfor those listening, I think the
other thing that is reallyimportant to note, and you talk
about this in your book, Senatoris, a lot of these stories, just

(08:38):
because we don't have theconclusion yet, doesn't mean
they're over. It, it takes awhile, sometimes longer than
we'd like, to make change. Butwe know, without a doubt, we're
on the right side of this issueand this is what the American
people want. It took six yearsand seven votes in Congress to

(09:01):
have the Brady Law enacted. IfJim and Sarah gave up at the
first obstacle, the second, thethird, the fourth, the fifth, we
wouldn't have one of the mostpopular laws in our nation,
enshrined in law, but we do. AndI think that's the spirit that I
see so often when I'm out. Andit breaks my heart, the number

(09:23):
of survivors that I interactwith, who take their time,
still, to raise their voicebecause they're looking for a
better America than the one theyhave right now. And that
inspires me every day. And I dothink we're on the precipice of
some major change with leaderslike Chris Murphy in the Senate
and others, and we have to keepour eyes focused on that.

Well I think, and on that note of interacting and
working with survivors, Kris, asyou so aptly pointed out, I
think that we have to talkabout, that when we're thinking
about the reality of gunviolence. 100 people a day in
the US are lost to us, right. Sothat's the ripple effects too of
100 deaths. That's not evencounting the people who are
injured. So in the book, Chris,you detail two stories which you

(10:12):
made allusions to, but I'd loveif you could go into a little
bit more detail for ourlisteners, Shane Oliver, Dylan
Hockley. And I would love totalk about those two young
people for a little bit, becauseI think, while unfortunately,
people know about Dylan, theydon't know about Shane. And both
of those young men should havetheir lives recognized. And
Christian, as a survivoryourself and as someone who now

(10:33):
interacts with survivors everyday, and fights for policy for
survivors, I would love for sortof your interpretation of what
it's like when someone likeChris kind of comes into this
space, and is ready to fight.

Yeah, and I you know, and listen, I
mentioned this in the book, Imean, I you know, feel like an
interloper, right. Because Ihave not experienced either
personally, or in my closefamily, or friends circle, the
gun violence epidemic. And soI'm sort of viewing this through
the eyes of so many that I'vebecome close to. But you know,

(11:04):
for folks that, sort of, thinkthey're going to pick us up, and
it's going to be a book aboutSandy Hook. It's not, that's
really not my story to tell.
There are obviously snippets ofmy experience, going through
that horror in the book, but itopens with the story of Shane
Oliver, as you mentioned. Andyou know, Shane Oliver grew up,
maybe two miles from me, in thenorth end of Hartford. Shane

(11:27):
dies about a month and a halfbefore Sandy Hook, in a murder
that gets absolutely noattention. And Shane's story, in
so many ways, is emblematic ofboth the inevitability of
violence in a place like thenorth end of Hartford, but also
the randomness of violence. SoShane's entire life is defined
by violence. There's a story inthe book of his 10 year old

(11:49):
summer, in which he's beingrecruited by some drug gangs to
be a lookout, I think, and heknows that that's going to come
with real serious risk tohimself. And so instead, he
invents this small business, asa 10 year old, he decides to
sell bottled water outside achurch all summer, so that he
can tell these guys that hecan't help them. He's got his
own business he needs to attendto, right. That's just not

(12:11):
anything that would even sort ofcome close to the mind of a 10
year old growing up in a suburbof Hartford like I did. But then
Shane dies at age 20, the 20thvictim of gun violence in
Hartford on October 20, killedby another 20 year old, a month
and a half before 20 kids die inSandy Hook. He dies because he

(12:32):
gets in an argument over somethings some kids said about his
girlfriend. And he doesn't likewhat they said, they get into a
scuffle, Shane throws a punch,there happens to be an illegal
weapon sitting in the front seatof one of these other kids'
cars. He goes and gets it and heshoots Shane, and by the
evening, he's dead in thehospital. And so, you know, this
is the reality for kids likeShane, both a life in which

(12:56):
violence is unescapable. Butthen outcomes that just don't
make sense, that would neverhappen in any other country, a
fight over a girl turningdeadly. And so the book starts
there because that death and hislife matter just as much as
Dylan Hockley. Dylan Hockley isone of the kids who dies in

(13:19):
Sandy Hook, his parents startedSandy Hook Promise, and I just
thought it was really importantto sort of, sort of tell Shane's
story so people can see who hewas, to see how important he
was, to see how much pain hisdeath caused, how it just
changed the life of his parentsforever. And to kind of command
us to think about the gunviolence epidemic through that

(13:41):
prism, as much as we do throughthe prism of mass shootings.

Christian Heyne (13:46):
Well, I just think it's so important, right.
That framing is, it's vital tothis discussion. You know, as as
I think everybody here knows,but and probably a lot of the
folks who are watching in, Icome to this movement as a
survivor. In 2005 my parents hadjust been returning from a
holiday vacation, where theyspent the weekend getting

(14:07):
sunburned and eating barbecue,right. You know, we have two
golden retrievers at the time,they just had an amazing couple
of days. And when they came backto return the boat that they had
used that weekend, to my dad'sbest friend a man was laying in
wait. And he turned the gun onthem, because my parents were
there. He shot both of them, inaddition to my dad's best
friend. My dad was shot threetimes, and my mom was shot and

(14:28):
killed with a single bullet tothe back. When we picked up the
pieces this gunman went on toterrorize our community. He shot
him into a police officer, hekilled another mother in front
of her two kids and put boththose kids in the ICU. And when
we picked up the pieces, my daddid survive, and we tried to
figure out how exactly this hadhappened. I think what we were
shocked to find is, you know,what you are laying out so well,

(14:52):
Senator Murphy, right, that theway that our gun laws are
patched together and the waythat our loopholes have been
intentionally designed and putin there by an industry that
profits off of the gun violencethat we see in this country.
There is no community that canbe safe or feel safe from gun
violence, because we just don'tdo enough to make sure that

(15:14):
we're protecting Americans fromit.
And even more so, what isremarkable about my story, and
the stories that you're layingout is how unremarkable they
are. This is happening everysingle day in this country over
and over and over. You know, 100people are going to be shot and

(15:34):
killed today -- today. And stillthe, that is the price of
inaction. And I just think thatthe way that you framed it is so
important, the way, it's the waywe need to talk about gun
violence, because there's notgoing to be a single solution
that is going to solve thiscomplex problem that we have. It
will require a comprehensiveapproach and the only way we're

(15:55):
going to make that happen is ifpeople understand what it is
like to be a survivor in thiscountry, because there's too
many of us and it doesn't goaway when the cameras go away.
It's something we have to livewith every single day. And, and
regardless of if people aretelling our stories or told them
in the first place, there arecommunities that are
experiencing gun violence everysingle day, disproportionately

(16:17):
than other communities, thatit's just a part of life. And we
are allowing our electedlegislators and members of
Congress and, and leaders to donothing. And I think what Sandy
Hook did really is it shook thenation awake that we just can't

(16:37):
do that anymore. We've beenstacking up those wins in the
States, because people arereally, have seen
front-and-center what theproblem of gun violence looks
like. And that ripple effect,the fact that my mom's not just
one person, she represents anentire community of people who
will never be the same. And so Ijust think that that framing and
that perspective, it's the wholeballgame. It's why we know that

(17:00):
that inaction, it truly is, youknow, life and death. You know
what we're talking about, it'speople like my mom, it's people
who just can't come back fromthis. So I just can't thank you
enough for for sharing thatperspective Senator because it's
vitally important.

Thank you.

Christian, thanks for sharing your story. I had a
chance to hear you tell itbefore, but every time you do, I
just want to thank you for allyou're doing. And Chris, when
you were talking about ShaneOliver story, and Dylan
Hockley's story, one thing thatwas sort of underneath the
surface was the ways in whichgun violence, though it
threatens all of us, it can lookdifferent ways in different

(17:38):
communities. So I'm justwondering, in the time that we
have, if you could talk aboutsome of the different forms of
gun violence that you talkedabout in the book. And also, if
you could kind of start off withtalking about racialized gun
violence, which you alluded to,in the beginning, when you
talked about the impetus towardswriting this book in the first
place.

Yeah, I mean, the structure of the book is,
the beginning of the book reallysort of sets a foundation. It
talks about the biology ofviolence, it talks about, sort
of, a global history ofviolence, and then it talks
about America's unique historyof violence. Then we sort of go
through the different kinds ofAmerican violence, right, the
the gun homicides, the suicides,the mass shootings. And then by

(18:17):
the end, we're ready to talkabout what we know works, what
we know can make this allbetter, and also what we know
about American violence thatprobably will lead us to be a
more inevitably violent place nomatter what we do. But as you
mentioned, if you set out towrite a book about American
violence, you end up writing abook about race, because there

(18:37):
is really no way to explainAmerican violence than through
the prism of violence as amechanism for white Americans to
subjugate and oppress BlackAmericans, and now broader
communities of color. And, youknow, the maybe the most
interesting historical momentthat I cover in the book is this
moment in the mid 1800s, whereviolence for the first time in

(19:01):
America starts to depart fromEuropean norms of numbers. So
right around 1840, violencenumbers in United States start
to really peak, start to reallyshoot up, and we never come back
down to earth. We have been aglobal outlier on violence
rates, homicide rates, assaultrates, ever since the 1840s. And
there's a handful of things thathappen there. The invention of

(19:22):
the handgun is one. Americandecides not to regulate firearms
in the way that other countriesdo and there's a mass
distribution of firearms to theAmerican populace. There's also
this sort of incoming massivewave of immigration in the mid
1800s and, sort of, these newimmigrants vying for space lead

(19:43):
to instances of violence. Butreally what happens during the
sort of mid 1800s is the massiveexpansion of slavery in the
United States. Because of theinvention of cotton gin,
hundreds of thousands morepeople are brought to the United
States and enslaved and Americarequires this epidemic level of
violence, at like,minute-by-minute, hourly

(20:04):
violence in order to keep thatnumber of people in chains. And
because of that, becauseviolence is, sort of, the
mechanism by which we order ourentire economy, the country
becomes numb to it. You see, allkinds of violence start to
spike, you know, white on whiteviolence starts to spike during
this time, because we just kindof become anesthetized to the

(20:24):
use of violence in order to gainadvantage, or sort of keep a lid
on unrest. And while violencesort of changes its form over
time, it goes from slavery tolynchings and vigilante justice
to mass incarceration, it neverleaves as the primary way by
which, what I call in this book,"in groups" used to keep

(20:47):
supremacy over "out groups." Andby the end, the sort of point of
the book is that listen, you canpass all the gun laws you want,
and it will get you some prettysignificant returns. But you
aren't going to end America'soutlier status with respect to
violence, unless you have aracial reckoning as well in this
country, unless you address allof the systemic ways in which we

(21:10):
continue to sort of keepcommunities of color,
economically disadvantaged, andthe ways in which we continue to
use violence as people arewatching, unfortunately, on TV
regularly this summer, tosubjugate those communities as
well.

And I think one of the ways too that that's really
been demonstrated is in,unfortunately, which sort of
we're gonna be going almostchronologically through your
book, Chris, the the way thatmass shootings get a lot of
attention in the media. But thatat the same time, very few
Americans are aware of just howmany mass shootings there are.
So going off of what the gunviolence archive would define as

(21:48):
a "mass shooting," which is fouror more people who have been
shot, you know, that almostevery single day in the US, one
occurs. And I'm wondering if youknow, Christian, as someone who
I know, is into the data, if youcan talk about why it is that
you think that is. But I didwant to want to thank you,
Chris, for highlighting that.
Because again, I think that goesback to a lot of times that

(22:09):
racialized difference, but alsojust the difference of what gets
reported what doesn't.

Yeah, I mean, it's such a important point,
right. And part of it is thatit's incumbent on us to frame
gun violence much in the waythat the Senator just did,
right. I mean, we need to, wecan't decouple systemic racism
in this country from gunviolence, because it frankly, is
a root cause of gun violence inthe way that our systems have
been built, right. For whateverreason, for far too long

(22:37):
Americans, the way that we havecovered gun violence, has only
left room to capture thenational attention when we see
something that's out of place,as opposed to sort of what we've
become accustomed to, which isthe daily plague of gun
violence, and, frankly, thedisproportionate impact of gun
violence in communities ofcolor. And I think that, you

(22:59):
know, the gun violenceprevention movement has come a
long way, in this regard. Iwill, you know, I'd be remiss
not to mention that there havebeen groups in communities
across the country that havebeen Black-led organizations,
that have been fighting on theseissues for a really long time.
So it's not like there weren'tpeople throughout the country
talking about it, we need to doa much better job of lifting up

(23:20):
those voices, and, and reallyshowing what gun violence looks
like in America.
We don't talk enough aboutfirearm suicide, right? Like
three out of five gun deathsthat happen in this country
every day, are firearm suicides,that are completely preventable.
Guns are by far the most lethalmeans available for individuals

(23:42):
who attempt suicide. And, and weknow that if we can intervene,
if somebody survives a suicideattempt that they go on to live
lives, where they don't die bysuicide. We can, we can make a
huge difference if we follow theevidence, if we talk about what
the daily plague of gun violencelooks like in this country. And

(24:03):
that doesn't mean that we ignorethe horrific tragedies that, and
the uniqueness, of mass-casualtygun violence in America as well.
It's all a part of a similarconversation. But it goes back
to this idea that gun violencehas gotten so bad in this
country, it really requires usto look at each individual type

(24:28):
of gun violence and addressthose head on. And we can't have
cookie-cutter solutions becausetoo often, and we're just going
to say this as well, right. Toooften, our "solutions" have
exacerbated cycles of gunviolence in communities that are
already disproportionatelyimpacted by gun violence. You
know, solutions that that relytoo heavily on the incarceration

(24:51):
of young black men, who arealready more likely to be
victims of gun violence thanthan any other demographic in
this country, right. The samecommunities that are being
plagued by by gun violence arealso being over policed and over
incarcerated. And we have to, weneed to address these systems if
we want to have a real impact onwhat gun violence looks like. So
the only way we're going to moveforward meaningfully, and to

(25:14):
create real national change isif we, is if we follow the
evidence and really tackle eachtype of gun violence, so that we
can have the best tailor-madesolutions possible to protect
communities, to strengthencommunities, and, and to
hopefully try to get closer tothe lived experience of every
other industrialized country inthe free world, right.

Let me just build, if I can, just for two
seconds on a couple of importantthings, Christian said, because
it is true. When I'm sort oftelling these stories in the
book of the different kinds ofgun violence, you will see lots
of differences, right. Inparticular, you know, there are
very different demographics thatbear the brunt of different
kinds of gun violence. Whereashomicides in this nation, are

(25:58):
far too often in Blackcommunities, in urban
communities, suicides in thiscountry are driven largely by
white, rural, male populations.
So there are a lot of importantdifferences. That being said,
there are some really importantconnecting threads. What we know

(26:19):
is that in states that make itjust a little bit harder to get
your hands on a gun, right,require you to go through a
background check, require you toget a permit from your local
police department -- there arelower rates of homicide, there
are lower rates of suicide,there are lower rates of
accidental shooting. So anyplace where you're just making
it a little bit harder for folksto get their hands on a gun
really quickly, then you'regoing to get a return across the

(26:43):
board. Similarly, povertyfactors into all of these rates,
right? If you are poor, you aremore likely to commit suicide,
you are more likely to be thevictim of a homicide, you are
more likely to be the victim ofdomestic violence crime. Poverty
tracks exposure to violence. Andso if you're investing in

(27:04):
stronger gun laws, and you'reattacking the sort of crisis of
wage stagnation and poverty inthis country, then you're going
to get gains all across the lothere. So really important to
understand the differences, butalso important to understand how
there are solutions that get yougains everywhere.

You just mentioned domestic violence. So
I'd love to drill down on that alittle bit more to ask both
Chris's. You know, if we couldtalk a little bit about
gender-based violence anddomestic violence, because we've
actually seen both of those riseduring COVID-19. And some of
that most likely has to do withpeople being in their homes and
having access to firearms, asyou just mentioned. So I'm just

(27:45):
wondering, if we can talk aboutthat specific type of gun
violence, especially as itrelates to the pandemic era that
we're in right now.

Kris Brown (27:53):
I'm happy to lead off, Kelly. Obviously, we have
seen a big increase and reportsof domestic violence since the
COVID pandemic hit. And we alsosaw, at the same time, a huge
surge in gun sales all acrossthis country. In fact, between
February and roughly late May ofthis year, 2 million more guns

(28:18):
were sold than were sold in theprior year. And so we know
already that the presence of agun, in a situation where
there's intimate partnerviolence substantially increases
the likelihood of injury anddeath of, usually women, but not
exclusively women, in thesesituations. The pandemic makes

(28:40):
it a horrible choice. Because weknow that often the cousel for
individuals who are sufferingintimate partner violence is to
leave the home. Of course, thecounsel in the pandemic, is to
stay at home. And so I know somany organizations right now

(29:01):
really trying to promoteoutreach, ensure people who are
victims of domestic violence areseeking treatment for that.
That's the system that we havein the United States, of course,
to ensure that we're documentingthese incidents and understand
them. And it cries out foradditional funding to provide

(29:23):
outreach and protection forindividuals who are victims of
intimate partner violence. AndI'll leave to the Senator to
talk about the real relationshiphere that we know in any more
detail, as he does in his book,about the United States and our
experience of domestic violencecompared to other countries and
the role of the gun in that,which cannot be understated.

Yeah, I mean, Kris covers it really well. What
we know is that home is not asafe place for everyone. And so
stay-at-home orders canultimately lead to more
violence. And Kris, you talkabout the enormous resources
we're going to need, part of thereason many of us are begging
our Republican colleagues topass a COVID funding package is

(30:08):
because our schools needadditional funding. Many of
these kids who are coming backto school are coming from homes
in which they were not safe.
They went through traumas athome that need to now be
addressed and identified inschool. So this is, this is a
broader crisis.
But yes, you are, you're right.
We know that there are somereally popular common sense

(30:30):
interventions on gun laws thatcan keep domestic partners safe.
And, you know, one of them isthis really simple idea that if
you're subject to a restrainingorder, that you shouldn't have
guns in the house. I tell thisawful story in the book about
Lori Gellatly, who dideverything you would have asked.

(30:53):
She had an abusive spouse, shemoved out, she reported him she
got a restraining order, butbecause we couldn't take his
guns, and he still had them, hemarched into his in-laws home
and shot her to death and shothis mother-in-law as well. And,
you know, this is a piece oflegislation that enjoys 90%

(31:16):
support, and we still can't getit passed. We will, we could get
a pass through the House we'llsoon have a president who will
sign it, and we'll soon have amajority in the Senate who will
get it done. But the tragedyhere is that, you know, it's not
like some of these otherproblems in America today, in
which we're still searching forthe solutions, right? We have
them. Now it's not going toerase all domestic crime. In

(31:37):
fact, what what studies show isthat as you do public policy
interventions, the "stickiest"kind of violence is domestic
violence The hardest kind ofviolence to move the numbers on
is domestic violence. But theymove, they still move. And that
boyfriend loophole that wetalked about, or the domestic

(32:01):
violence restraining orderloophole that we talked about,
are really, really important toclose.

Actually, for that, I would like to open this up to
Chris, Kris and Christian. SoI'm sorry that my mom went for a
J name I feel a little left out.

We assure everybody this was unplanned.

Kelly, you at least have a similar consonant sound
starting. Anyway, I think I wantto open this up to all of you,
to talk about the the scaryreality that, Chris, you even in
detail in the book too, which isthings like the gun show
loophole. You know, things likegun trafficking, things like
crime guns, and how groups likethe ATF, because of things that

(32:44):
have happened are largelyhamstrung from acting on aspects
of these crimes. Because I wouldlike to hear all of your takes
on this, since that's one of thethings that often comes out of
these conversations, too, is howdo we solve some of these
issues?And I think as as youdetail in the book, Chris, there
are some things that could behappening right now. And there
are things that, in fact,happened in the past, but we

(33:05):
have sort of allowedunfortunately, to go by the
wayside.

You know, one of the sort of favorite refrains
of my colleagues who don't wantto pass any new laws is that "we
should just enforce the lawsthat are on the books." They
sort of forget to mention thatthey have passed all sorts of
small provisions attached tobudgets that, that get stuck on
the budget year after year, thatdon't allow for these for these

(33:33):
laws to be to be enforced. Andthe ATF has more restrictions on
them than any other agency inthe federal government. In fact
the, if you total up all thewords, in the riders that have
been attached to budgets, thatrestrict the powers of the ATF,
they are actually morevoluminous than the statutory

(33:54):
powers of the ATF. And so forinstance, one of the things the
ATF can't do is go check a gunstore more than once a year. And
so, you have most gun storeowners doing all the right
things, right, only selling gunsto the right people, doing
background checks, not engagingthe traffickers. But you got a

(34:15):
handful of bad apples, some ofthem sitting right outside of
major cities, that are regularlyselling guns to people who
shouldn't be buying them andviolating laws. And yet you
can't get into these placesbecause we have passed all these
restrictions. So yes, part ofthis is low-hanging fruit. And
we've had a little bit ofsuccess with Republican

(34:37):
colleagues in beginning to, tounlock some of these avenues,
grabbing some of that fruit, butit is sort of stunning, the
hypocrisy of those that say,"Hey, just just enforce the laws
you've got." The ATF is notallowed to do that.

Kris Brown (34:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think Chris got it, obviously,
exactly right. And if you askthe average American about this,
honestly, they really areshocked. Because, of course, we
do hear over and over again,it's all about enforcement, from
a particular set of individuals.
But they know that the agencythat is charged with that

(35:20):
enforcement has, over time, beenliterally handcuffed, for lack
of a better analogy, in itsability to actually enforce
those laws in a meaningful way.
So much so, that the data thatwe have, which is admittedly
old, but it's the best we have,because we stopped being able to

(35:42):
access this data from ATF saysthat about 5% of the nation's
gun dealers, and I think it'simportant for listeners to know
we have more gun dealers inAmerica than we have Starbucks
and McDonald's combined, thereare a lot of gun dealers in this
country. About 5% of them,though, are responsible for the

(36:03):
sale of 90, nine-zero, 90% ofcrime guns. And the problem that
Senator Murphy noted, istherefore very substantial. When
you have that universe ofpotential gun dealers that
you're supposed to enforce andyou're not pinpointing, with
precise information, which ofthose gun dealers is likely the

(36:26):
responsible gun dealerassociated with the sale of
those crime guns, you areallowing many communities across
this country, and these arepredominantly minority
communities that are impacted bythis kind of violence, to be
flooded with crime guns. That isan eminently fixable problem,

(36:46):
and one that is essentially anenforcement issue. So when I
hear people saying that, as youall know, it drives me bananas,
because it is the ultimate inhypocrisy. And it can so easily
be fixed, and live saved.

Yeah, I mean, I won't add a ton, I think that
you both captured it reallywell. I, I think what we're
really describing here, too, is,you know, like we were saying
earlier, there's there's acomplex problem here that
requires comprehensivesolutions. And, and a lot of
what we talked about as, in theway of an approach to solving
gun violence, is focusing on howwe how we can prevent the demand

(37:25):
side, right. How do we prohibitindividuals who would be at risk
of dangerous behavior? How do wemake sure that we are investing
in communities, so that theydon't feel the need to pick up
the gun in the first place? Howdo we sort of build up those
communities and strengthen themso that there are other
opportunities provided, that'sall a really important focus on

(37:47):
the demand side, we also need tofocus on the supply side. Guns
don't grow on trees, they'remanufactured and sold, and
oftentimes the gatekeepers toensure that these firearms are
not diverted to the criminalmarket, they're gun dealers. And
we need to do more to hold themaccountable, we need to do more
to hold the industryaccountable. We need to prevent

(38:08):
things like theft andtrafficking, a lot of this can
be done at a federal level.
There's a lot that states can dotoo, right, and we can empower
states to be able to issuestronger licenses, you know, for
gun dealers. Same thing withbeing able to empower local law
enforcement to, to do what theATF, frankly, just can't do, for
the reasons that the senatorlaid out. To inspect gun dealers

(38:29):
to make sure that they're not apart of that 5% that are that
are diverting 90% of guns in thecriminal market. I mean, let's
be real. In so many communitiesaround the country, it is easier
to find firearms, to buy a gun,than it is to find fresh
produce. That, that is a reallysad state of affairs in this
country. We need to, when wetalk about gun violence, just

(38:51):
like we've been saying all alonghere, we need to think about
solutions holistically.
Enforcement is a big part of itand focusing on the supply side
is something that we can allproactively push towards, that
doesn't lean on communities in away that can perpetuate cycles
of violence as well.

So there are a small group of people who are
profiting off of gun violence inthis country, we should hold
them more accountable. And weneed to.

Remember, remember, it's not just an
American problem, right? Thereare no gun stores in Mexico,
right? Every gun that's used ina crime in Mexico is an illegal
gun from the United States. Andso I spend one chapter in this
book just sort of explaining howwe export American violence, all
around the world, largelythrough an illegal firearms
trade that starts with legalweapons in the United States.

(39:41):
The stories of gun traffickerswho, you know, come up from
Central America, South America,they spend a weekend going
around to gun stores, excuse megoing around to gun shows in the
South, buying up weapons, inwhich they never have to present
their credentials, never have toprove who they are, never have
to show that they're a legalpurchaser. And then they traffic

(40:04):
those guns right back to superdangerous places. And so, you
know, this inability to policegun sales, to just make sure
that the right people are buyingthem, not to stop gun sales,
just to make sure that only theright people are buying them. It
leads not just to an Americanepidemic, but it leads to a
Mexican epidemic into a Honduranepidemic into a Guatemalan
epidemic. Because thosecountries don't sell guns, the

(40:27):
only way they get them isbecause of the loose laws here
in the United States.

Kris Brown (40:31):
And I might add, on top of that, violence that
causes many in those communitiesto want to flee.

Right.

Kris Brown (40:39):
We're perpetuating all of that, with these. The
lack of enforcement is at theroot of this, if the gun dealers
who are turning the other cheek,were forced to actually comply
with the laws, because none ofthat is legal sales, then we
would not have this problem. Ittakes investment in the ATF

(41:01):
oversight from that agency, anda different approach than we
have today to that criticallyimportant job.

I'm gonna make a slight departure, but it still
connects to the overallconversation we're having about
the easy availability of gunsand our country being flush with
them. Because one of the thingsthe book does really beautifully
is Chris goes into detail abouthow we need to be more informed
about suicide, especiallyfirearm suicide. And so I'm
wondering, Kris Brown, if youcould talk a little bit about

(41:31):
firearm suicide, especiallygiven our End Family Fire
campaign?

Kris Brown (41:35):
Yes. Well, we touched on this briefly before,
I mean, for Brady's perspective,obviously, we're looking to make
a difference and reduce gunviolence in this country, across
the board. And while there aremany connections with different
kinds of gun violence, there arecertain different driving
factors, as well, that need tobe considered. And so several

(41:57):
years ago, Brady, looked at theproblem of lack of safe storage
in the home. This is a pervasiveproblem. We have more guns than
human beings in this country, wehave 4.6 million children who
live in homes with unsecuredguns. And that's older data, by
the way. It's certainly morethan that, given the spike in

(42:18):
gun sales that we've seen overthe last year. We also have an
epidemic of suicide. 60% of the,on average, from last year,
40,000 Americans died from gunviolence. 60% of those are
suicides, and the critical thingthat we learned after 15 months

(42:38):
of research. It didn't take 15months, but we had public health
groups, incredible experts whohelped us in suicide prevention,
individuals from the vetscommunity who experience huge,
record numbers, these days, ofsuicide. 20 vets a day, on
average, are ending their lifeby suicide and the majority of
those are with guns. The issueis access. Means matter. But we

(43:02):
have a pervasive myth inAmerican society that is hugely
problematic. And that is someoneintent on completing a suicide
will do so no matter what. It'sjust not true. It's absolutely
not true. Nine out of 10 peoplewho attempt suicide, and do not

(43:22):
complete that suicide, go on todie of natural causes. They
don't attempt suicide again. Andso if you can control the means,
and guns are the deadliest,right, 9 times out of 10,
someone using a gun is going tocomplete a suicide. On average
compared to all other means ofsuicide, they have a 3% success

(43:47):
rate. So imagine that 90% of thetime, attempting suicide with a
gun is going to be successful,completed, not successful,
completed, about 3% on average,for all other means. So the End
Family Fire campaign and oursuicide prevention component
that we're so proud that welaunched last week, focuses on

(44:10):
safe storage. And that meansguns, unloaded, locked, ammo
separate. And that can make allof the difference. We want
people to be talking about that.
And also understanding thatending family fire in your
household could also mean remotestorage. And you have to

(44:32):
carefully analyze the riskfactors in your home, depending
on the life cycle of your home.
What that looks like, if you'reliving alone, versus having
children in the home versushaving older parents in the
home. That's something that youhave to constantly assess. And
so this campaign is our versionof designated driver and

(44:54):
secondhand smoke. It's thatcampaign that we hope will drive
the behavior change that willmake a serious reduction, both
in unintentional injury of kidsin the home, but also on the
epidemic of suicide that we facein this country.

Kris Brown, I want to thank you for for those
comments. Cuz I think that's agreat highlight of what people
have been working on. But also,Senator Chris, I want to, I want
to thank you, too, for theportions of your book, where you
do go into talking aboutsuicide, and you go into talking
about, sort of, the peculiar wayin which Americans are
accustomed to violence, butstill are not comfortable
talking about suicide. And so Ireally do, I think that we've

(45:35):
articulated how great this bookis, but I really want to take a
moment to sort of nonshamelessly plug how absolutely
fantastic The Violence Inside Usis, and how everyone should go
out, either on Kindle orphysically, you know, pick up
the book, and give it a read.

If I can jump in real quick, too. I just want
to give a quick shout outSenator Murphy, to you while, I
get the moment to take theprivilege to do so. I, you know,
I can recall working on the Hillin January 2013. And you calling
all of our groups and bringingus in. You were a lame duck

(46:13):
senator in a, you were in thebellows of one of the Senate
buildings, in a basement whereyou were kind of all crammed in.
And you did the work. I mean,you asked for as many resources
as you could possibly get. Youwere reading books that we were
giving you, which is, you know,let alone It's hard to get the
sitting Senators to readpamphlets, let alone books, and

(46:37):
you were you were a sponge. Andreally, it was an incredible
moment. I mean, it's horrific.
It's always horrific what ittakes to shake the nation awake.
But you were, kind of, thisexample of what we were seeing
happen in the rest of the world,right, of "What is it that we
can do? This can't be normalEnough is enough. Let's get to

(46:58):
work." And Americans at thetime, I think had the same
switch, and we have beenstacking up wins since then. And
we have been doing it, and Ijust want to thank you so much
for your steadfast leadership onthis, to do the work, to stick
to it. I can also attest thatthe morning after the
filibuster, I had to run on tothe Hill to try to get there as

(47:18):
quick as possible to do somework, and you had been on I
think it was a 15 hourfilibuster. You were at the
Senate before I was, drinkingcoffee and looked a lot better
than I did.

There was a lot of adrenaline that next
morning. As I remember. What Iremember is that the next
morning, I had committed to, itwas the last day of school, and
so I had committed to makesomething for the like end of
school celebration. So I had toget up the next morning and make
like a big fruit salad at like,four in the morning or something

(47:54):
like that to bring to school. SoI was up way earlier than that,
getting ready for the last dayof school celebrations at the
elementary school up the street.

It was incredibly impressive, I got a
picture where somehow my bagsunder my eyes are bigger than
yours. So I just I'm verythankful for that, for your
dedication to push it forward,and to move this issue forward,
to just find ways to continuethat forward progress. And I
think what has been so excitingis to see that the press, the
country, everybody has beenwaiting for so long to write

(48:23):
that story of 'people are goingback to their normal lives.'
They never have, and I thinkthat Americans are so hungry
across this country to have realchange. And you've been such a
huge part of leading that. So Ijust wanted to take the moment
to thank you so much for allthat.

Well, I mean, this, you know, you mentioned
sort of that education that I'veundergone. And I appreciate the
nice words. I mean, this book isan attempt to sort of put it all
into 300 pages. And you alsomention that this is a really
tough issue to spend your lifeworking on, right. And these are
sometimes tough books to read.
And so I will assure folks whohaven't read it, that I knew
that going in. And so whilethere are some emotional stories

(49:01):
in here, there are also justsome really interesting,
compelling stories, right. Thestory of the NRA, and how it
starts, and how it gets takenover, that's a fascinating
story. The story of theinvention of the repeating
revolver in Hartford,Connecticut, that's just a
really interesting story. Andthen there's some, you know,
just inspirational stories inthe middle of our movement, that
gets told in this book. So it isa tough, it's a tough issue to

(49:21):
order your life around. It's atough issue to decide to spend
two weeks reading about. ButI've tried to structure it in a
way in this book that you know,you can leave a night of reading
this book and feel sort oflifted up, or feel just, you
know, educated by a compellingstory, rather than depressed by
the sheer weight of theepidemic.

Kris Brown (49:45):
Well, I for one was really pleased and had a smile
on my face with the littlenugget that you included on the
history of the Colt and themanufacturing plant, of course,
and the world coming full circlewith you having your office
there, as a leader of the gunviolence prevention movement in

(50:06):
the U.S. Senate., so.

The place that the Colt 45, the original
repeating revolver was invented,that exact building is where my
Senate office is today, whichis, you know, it is it's a
strange world. It's a strangeworld we live in.

Kris Brown (50:23):
Yeah, yes, exactly.
But a good one.

Well, and people can listen to some of those
stories. And I think we did muchmore like NRA and gun lobby
focused, we did a podcast withthe Senator that is out too on
the books. So check that out, itis Episode 91, I believe. Maybe
Episode 90? There's so manyepisodes, but we'll link to it
and this will also be posted onthe podcast. But yeah, as Kelly
knows, Christian knows, andlisteners of "Red, Blue and

(50:50):
Brady" know, I probably read aGVP book about a week now, just
generally as as part of my work.
And there's there's thishandful, that I immediately go
on Goodreads and suggest toeveryone and this was definitely
one of them. So thank you somuch Senator it was great, so.

Thank you.
Thanks.

Definitely gets the Red, Blue and Brady stamp of
approval. So we have to make astamp. But

That is a fantastic note to close out our
time, because I wish we couldtalk more, but obviously, we
don't have endless time here,which is why everyone should buy
the wonderful book and get moreinvolved. So this question is to
everyone, which is where canpeople go to get the book? Where
can people go to learn moreabout gun violence? And what can
people do to get involved rightnow in saving people's lives?

Well, I'll take the book question. And then
you can take the sort ofresource question. The book's
everywhere, so. Obviously, I'dprefer you buy from your local
bookstore. If it's not open inperson, you can do it online. I
have sort of pushed folks to dothat in Connecticut, and but

(51:59):
it's available, it's availableeverywhere.

Kris Brown (52:02):
And as someone who just finished the book, I have
to also say I have read a lot ofbooks myself on the topic,
obviously, over the years. And Iwould just say for those people
who may not be as steeped inreading like JJ, a book a week
on gun violence prevention, butwant a good overview that's

(52:23):
digestible, I highly recommendSenator Murphy's book. It was I
wouldn't say it's an easy read.
But it really provides anincredibly thorough overview
about the history of violence,about guns in America, and about
what we can do next. If you wantmore information, obviously,
with a shameless plug, on anyissue, facts, research policy,

(52:44):
our End Family Fire campaign,please go to BradyUnited.org,
and you will find a treasuretrove of information about the
issue of gun violenceprevention, and how you can get
involved and make a difference.

Thank you again, so much, Senator. Thank you to all
of the Chris/Kris's present,including Christian, and also to
Kelly. This has been great.
Thank you all so much.
This first story comes from oneof your favorite sources,
Florida Man.

Oh, it's really sad that that, yup.
Yeah.

And it's not Florida's fault. It's just that
So this isn't us hating onFlorida. This is us thanking
actually they have really open,because they have sunshine laws,
them for being so open. However,they do have some pretty lax gun
they have really open reportingstandards.
laws, which is concerning. SoKelly, a Florida man has been
taken to jail after he went tohis son's school to retrieve a

(53:48):
handgun that he had forgotteninto son's backpack.

Oh, why was it in the backpack?

See, that is a question that the Miami Herald
Journal article that I founddoes not answer.

Like I mean, I need to know like, what? Why? I
mean, it's good that youremembered that you forgot it,
but also, I have questions.

Yeah he, the gentleman arrived to his eight
year old's elementary school. Heasked to see his son, along with
his backpack. He then took thepistol out of it, and placed it
in his waistband. Thereapparently was another parent in
the room who witnessed theincident. He then notified
police, who were then called andhe told the cops that he had he
had forgotten that he placed hispistol in his son's backpack.

Mm hmm.

The man was charged with possessing a weapon on
school grounds, improperexhibition of a weapon, and
possession of a concealedfirearm. It does not, I could
not find any reports whether itwas loaded or not.

Yeah, I just why?
Like clearly, if it was inthere, then clearly he knew it
was in there and like probablyplaced it in there. So I'm just
like, what were you thinking?

The only thing I can think of is, and I was
guilty of this when I was ananny is that sometimes if
you're getting the kids out thedoor like, any bag will do.
Right. Like I definitely took toplay dates before with like, a
grocery bag stuffed with alltheir stuff, right. So maybe had
to put it in the bag. But no, agun should not be loose in a bag
at any time.

Yeah, especially a kid's bag. Like, you know what
I mean? I

Yes.

That's a very specific like I imagine it was
a, how old was the kid?

Eight.

Okay yeah so its like

Too young.

Yeah. I, I just have questions.

I begin this week's news wrap up with another report
on how gun and ammunition saleshave skyrocketed this year.
According to the FBI there havebeen more than 25,934,334
background checks throughAugust, which provides a window
into understanding the number ofgun sales this year. It's not
uncommon for gun sales to riseduring an election year. But so
far there's been a 95% increasein gun sales, compared to this

(55:54):
time last year, and 139%increase for ammunition.
Meanwhile, in California, afteryears of tireless advocacy by
Brady California, Governor GavinNewsom signed into law a bill
that requires newer modelhandguns in California to be
microstamped. Microstamping is atechnology that imprints a
unique marking known as amicrostamp, on the bullet casing
of a firearm. This allows lawenforcement to connect bullet

(56:16):
casings found at crime scenesdirectly to the gun that fired
them. Kind of similar in the waythat, you know, law enforcement
can use your license plate toidentify your car's, make,
model, VIN and owner. Californiaoriginally adopted a
microstamping requirement in2007 but gun manufacturers have
effectively boycotted the law bysaying they were unable to
comply. This recently passedbill A.B. 2847, authored by

(56:39):
Assemblymember David Chiu, willend the gun industry boycott by
requiring the microstampmarkings in just one place in
the firearm instead of two,which the gun industry has
publicly said they are able todo. If this seems super
interesting to you, don't worry,we're gonna have another podcast
episode down the line devotedjust to this. This law also then
mandates that for every new gunintroduced to California, three

(57:01):
guns without micro stampingtechnology has to be removed
from the inventory of guns soldin state.
Are you interested in sharingwith the podcast? Listeners can
get in touch with us here at RedBlue, and Brady via phone or
text message. Simply call ortext us at 480-744-3452 with
your thoughts, questions,concerns, ideas, whatever!

(57:22):
And you know what else you canshare? Chocolate. Come join me
in eating your 2020 feelings byshopping Hu's Kitchen Chocolate
which is free of dairy, gluten,refined sugar, palm oil, and
cane sugar. My personal favoriteare the dark gems. It's a bag
bursting with 70% dark chocolate-- paleo style. Click on the
link in the description of ourepisode to help support the
show, and to buy you, or yourloved ones, some tasty treats.

(57:46):
Thanks for listening. As always,Brady's life saving work in
Congress, the courts andcommunities across the country
is made possible thanks to you.
For more information on Brady orhow to get involved in the fight
against gun violence, pleaselike and subscribe to the
podcast, get in touch with us atBradyunited.org, or on social
@Bradybuzz. Be brave andremember -- take action not
sides.

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