October 12, 2020 • 52 mins
Recently, the Superior Court of Pennsylvania has held that the federal gun industry protection law, the Protection of the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (“PLCAA”) as unconstitutional in its entirety, the first appeals court to do so. What does it mean, and where do we go from here? This is exactly what hosts Kelly and JJ discuss with Team Enough Fairfax member Aaryan Rawal, Dr. Griffin Dix, father of Kenzo Dix and President, Oakland Brady Chapter, Brady Senior Counsel and Vice President of Legal Jon Lowy, and Brady President Kris Brown.
Mentioned in this podcast:
The awkward question that could assure your child comes home safe (the Mercury News)
Long Battle Against Guns Began With a Son’s Death (New York Times)
Gustafson v. Springfield Armory (Brady)
A victory for gun violence victims (Brady)
Why PLCAA is a Problem (Brady)
For more information on Brady, follow us on social media @Bradybuzz or visit our website at bradyunited.org.
Full transcripts and bibliographies of this episode are available at bradyunited.org/podcast.
Enjoy some treats from Hu's Kitchen, like chocolate free of dairy, gluten, refined sugar, palm oil, and cane sugar!
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255.
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells for their long-standing legal support
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady
For more information on Brady, follow us on social media @Bradybuzz or visit our website at bradyunited.org.
Full transcripts and bibliographies of this episode are available at bradyunited.org/podcast.
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255.
In a crisis? Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a Crisis Counselor 24/7.
Music provided by: David “Drumcrazie” Curby
Special thanks to Hogan Lovells for their long-standing legal support
℗&©2019 Red, Blue, and Brady
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
JJ Janflone (00:08):
Hey everybody, this is the legal disclaimer where I
tell you that the views,thoughts, and opinions shared on
this podcast blog solely to ourguests and hosts, and not
necessarily Brady or Brady'saffiliates. Please note this
podcast contains discussions ofviolence that some people may
find disturbing. It's okay -- wefind it disturbing too.
Hey everybody. Welcome back toanother live episode of Red,
(00:43):
Blue and Brady. Today Kelly andI are joined by Brady president
Kris Brown. Team ENOUGH Fairfaxmember, Aaryan Rawal, survivor
and activist Dr. Griffin Dix andJon Lowy, Chief Counsel and VP
of Legal at Brady. Today yourpanel is together to discuss
news that the Superior Court ofPennsylvania has held the
federal gun industry protectionlaw, the Protection of the
Lawful Commerce and Arms Act,affectionately called PLCAA, is
(01:06):
unconstitutional in its entirety-- the first appeals court to do
so. What does it mean and wheredo we go from here? Don't worry,
our panelists have the answers.
Then in our "unbelievable but"section, Kelly, I talk about how
even a firearms expert can causean unintentional shooting, if
not careful. Finally, in ournews wrap up, we talked about a
AI image used by change the ref,and a call for gun violence
(01:28):
prevention in New York City.
I am so excited to have youpanelists here today. I think
we've got such a range ofexperiences here from
survivorship to legal, what Iwill call "legal eagles," to
(01:50):
just longtime activists. So Iwant to go ahead and hop in and
maybe just one by one, we canhave everybody introduce
themselves?
Jon Lowy (01:56):
Sure. My name is Jon Lowy, I'm Vice President of
Legal and Chief Counsel at Brady
Kelly Sampson (02:01):
Hey everyone. My name is Aaryan, my pronouns are
he/him/his. I am a youthadvocate in Fairfax County,
Virginia, the chapter there forTeam ENOUGH Fairfax.
Kris Brown (02:09):
Hi, everyone. I'm Kris Brown and I'm the president
of Brady.
Griffin Dix (02:14):
Griffin Dix, with the Oakland Brady chapter. I'm
co-chair of the chapter inOakland, California.
JJ Janflone (02:21):
And it's very exciting that we have, it's
weird, it's very rare nowanymore that we have an all
Brady panel. But it's veryexciting to see the mix between
people who work at Bradydirectly and people, well
person, who runs Brady, Kris,and then some of our fantastic
Team ENOUGH members and chaptermembers. So it's just it's
really great to have all of youhere. And I want to start by
(02:42):
turning to Jon Lowy,affectionately normally called
Lowy by those in-the-know, ifyou could explain to our
listeners, you know, why, whywe're here. Why? What is PLCAA,
or the Protection of LawfulCommerce in Arms Act? You know,
what is it? Why does it matter?
Can you give us a law schoolversion of Schoolhouse Rock?
Sure.
Jon Lowy (03:02):
Well, PLCAA is a federal law, that when George W.
Bush was president, it was theNRA's number one agenda item.
They could have picked anythingthey wanted to protect the gun
industry, and what they pickedwas, was PLCAA. And what it does
(03:22):
is, it gives the gun industryunique protection from civil
liability. So basic negligencelaw, which requires all of us to
use reasonable care in what wedo. It applies to all of us, we
can all be liable if we'renegligent, except if you're a
gun company. In many cases, youcan get special protection that,
(03:46):
again, no person or industry inAmerica has. So it's quite
outrageous. It was enacted in2005 and it remains law; it
prevents gun companies frombeing held liable in many cases,
not all cases, we get around atsome, there are some exceptions,
but a lot of cases.
JJ Janflone (04:05):
And I think that that sets up brilliantly why
we've all gathered here todayfor this webinar, which is
specifically to discuss, youknow, the title of this is "A
Major Victory (04:14):
PLCAA found unconstitutional," something
that just happened in the news,a very recent PLCAA decision.
And and, Kris, I'm wondering ifyou could articulate to our
audience, you know, whathappened in that recent
decision?
Kris Brown (04:28):
Well, I think john is in a better position to
articulate what happened in thatdecision, because we've been
looking at various efforts inthe litigation realm since PLCAA
was passed. You know,ostensibly, when you talk to
yeah, members of the NRA peoplelike Wayne LaPierre, what
(04:48):
they'll say is, PLCAA wasnecessary to protect the gun
industry from litigation thatwould have completely bankrupted
the gun industry. That's nottrue. It's one of the only
product immunity, or productliability immunity laws, that
(05:08):
ostensibly, purported byCongress to provide very broad
immunity to the gun industry.
There is no other industry inAmerican life today that has a
law that attempts to shield itfrom liability for basic kinds
of issues related to theirproducts. And the case that Jon
will talk about in just asecond, I think the important
(05:32):
thing because Jon is notsomeone, as we know Lowy very
well, who's going to toot hisown horn. But when you're
looking at litigation, andyou're looking at a law like
PLCAA, that's attempting toprovide such broad immunity to
the industry, you have to thinkabout what kind of case you're
going to bring, and how you canreally attack the underpinnings
(05:55):
of that case to reallydemonstrate to courts the
negative impact on publicpolicy, and American life, and
basic justice, that's renderedas a result of the law. And it
took a long time to figure outwhat kind of case to bring
forward. Ultimately, theGustafson case is that case, and
(06:16):
obviously, we know thatPennsylvania court got it right.
But I'll leave it to Jon to givethe particulars and detail how
it is that we came to bring thatcase, and hopefully some of the
wonderful statements made by thecourt about PLCAA in that case
Jon.
Jon Lowy (06:39):
Sure. So Thanks, Kris.
So as Kris said, you know, we atBrady have tried to challenge
PLCAA for a number of years. Andwhat we decided was a case like
the Gustafson case was a perfectvehicle for that. And that case
involves a tragic, sort of,situation, and Griffin Dix we'll
(07:01):
talk about that in more detail.
But it was a J.R. Gustafson wasa 13 year old boy. He was at a
friend's house, friend was alsoabout the same age. That friend
had a gun which was unloaded, itdid not have a magazine,
(07:23):
ammunition magazine, in the gun.
So he thought it was completelyunloaded, pointed at a J.R. and
pulled the trigger. There wasaround in the chamber which he
did not know about and it killedJR. And there are safety
features such as a magazinedisconnect safety, which has
been around for over 100 years,that would prevent a gun from
firing in that sort ofsituation. Any other industry
(07:44):
would be required to put in thatsort of safety device. The gun
industry is not required,because they are exempt from
product safety oversight, underan exception to the Consumer
Product Safety Act. But theyshould be subject to civil
liability lawsuit. Yet whathappened, we brought a lawsuit
on behalf of Gustafson againstthe gun manufacturer, saying
(08:05):
they should have put in thesafety feature, and it was
dismissed, because the trialjudge said PLCAA provides
immunity to this gun company.
And we appealed it what theappellate court said was, maybe
PLCAA does bar this case butConstitution does not allow
(08:26):
Congress to prevent Pennsylvaniacourts from providing civil
justice to the Gustafson's orpeople like them. And the reason
it's unconstitutional, this getsa little wonky, is the 10th
amendment, which ironically, Imean, 10th Amendment basically
protects states right statesovereignty. Ironically, the
(08:50):
10th amendment was used by gunlobby challenges to the Brady
Law, and also to gun-free zone,Gun-Free School Zones Act. But
in this case, what the courtheld correctly, we believe, is
that what PLCAA does is itbasically says to states like
(09:11):
Pennsylvania, you can't use yourcourts to give civil justice to
victims of gun violence. But ifyou want to you can use your
legislature and provide civiljustice that way. And the
federal, government under ourConstitution, does not have the
authority to tell states whatbranch of government they use to
(09:33):
make laws or to apply theircivil justice system, and
therefore, it'sunconstitutional. So, as the
court said, PLCAA is repugnantto the Constitution of the
United States and is of no forcein effect.
Kelly Sampson (09:48):
I just want to pivot a moment to Dr. Dix or, if
you prefer Griff, just let meknow. Because you lost your son
Kenzo in 1994. And I waswondering, if you're
comfortable, if you could tellus first, what was he like? What
kind of person was he? And thenif you could also share with us
what happened to your son thatyear?
Griffin Dix (10:09):
Okay. Kenzo was fifteen in 1994. He was a
wonderful, joyful kid, freshmanin high school, on the
basketball team and a goodstudent. Lots of fun. It's, it's
very difficult to describe allof the joy he brought to us, you
(10:33):
know, every day. Just, he wasright on track for any, we
discovered, actually, somewriting he had done for an
English class after he died,that said, it was his 10 year
plan. And he said, well, I liketaking care of people. Maybe
(10:55):
I'll be a doctor, but actually,I don't like treating illnesses,
that is a little weird. But andmaybe animals, I like animals a
lot. This and that and theother. He was, he liked writing
poetry and he was just lots offun. So what happened? One
(11:16):
Sunday, he went over to afriend's house. The boy was 14
years old, and they were up inthe boy's bedroom. And without
telling Kenzo, the boy decidedhe would show Kenzo his father's
gun. So the boy went down to hisfather's bedroom to get the gun,
(11:39):
the handgun, semiautomatichandgun that the father kept,
loaded and unlocked next to hisbed, supposedly, for protection.
He picked up this Beretta 92Compact L, took out a magazine
that was loaded with bullets,and picked up an empty magazine
(12:01):
and walked back up to thebedroom where Kenzo was, walked
in the door and slipped in themagazine that had, that was
empty, and pulled the triggerexpecting, he thought he'd
unloaded it and expected the gunto just go "click." And the
(12:22):
bullet still hidden in thechamber killed Kenzo. So in our
case, a magazine disconnectsafety device would not have
saved Kenzo's life, reallybecause he had put an empty
magazine back in. But we learnedlater that this boy had been to
the shooting range with hisfather and had fired that
(12:44):
particular Beretta, learned alittle bit about it, but not
enough. So obviously, the boyhad made horrible mistakes, but
they couldn't hit him. If theyhad had a prominent chamber
loaded indicator, he would haveseen it on the day that he
(13:05):
walked back up to the bedroom,and he would have seen that
there was something sticking upright on the top of their gun,
telling him that there was stilla bullet in the chamber.
So Jon Lowy argued our case, andultimately, there were three
trials. There was jurymisconduct, there was a hung
(13:27):
jury. But ultimately, we lostthe case, but we came very close
to winning. And this is beforePLCAA was passed. And actually
in California, we passed lawssetting safety standards for
handguns, including a lawrequiring prominent chamber
(13:48):
loading indicators, and magazinedisconnect safety devices,
thanks to the Brady chapters inCalifornia, wonderful volunteer
leaders. And the rate ofunintentional gun deaths in
California and dropped by twothirds -- 66%. So the laws that
(14:10):
we're talking about save lots oflives. But we were devastated
when we began, when we learnedabout Kenzo death. And then we
began learning about theloopholes in our gun laws, that
guns are exempt from ConsumerProduct Safety, from regulation
(14:31):
by the Consumer Product SafetyCommission, first of all, and,
and that this gun had beendesigned for military and law
enforcement, not for civilians.
It didn't have the safetyfeatures that civilians need.
But it had been sold to civilianhouseholds that have kids. And
(14:52):
actually the gun industry andhad people, "You really need to
have your gun stored where it'sinstantly available." And they
kept playing up the need toprotect yourself with a gun
that's immediately available --very irresponsible. So it really
(15:13):
should have, I mean, you know,lawsuits, civil lawsuits have
been used for years to giveincentive to manufacturers of
products to make their productssafer.
Kelly Sampson (15:35):
I just wanted to thank you for sharing your son's
life with us and sharing yourstory and also for the courage
that you had to work with us inlight of that.
Griffin Dix (15:47):
Thank you.
JJ Janflone (15:48):
I think, Griff, one of the reasons why your words
are so powerful is that I thinka lot of people hear something
like PLCAA, it sounds like awonky word, right? Or they hear
a legal case, or they hear thatBrady was involved in a legal
case, and it was in a statecourt or, and especially for
someone who's not familiar withthe law, it seems like a you
(16:09):
know, like a lot of highfalutinnonsense, to be honest. That
it's stuff that people arevoting on, that it's stuff, it's
a court case that went on, asyou said, court cases take a
long time, there were threeversions of them. This PLCAA
case seems like it, it might bethis really difficult thing for
people to grasp. But at the endof the day, these cases exist
because people have to go homewithout their loved ones. These
(16:32):
these cases exist because a gunmanufacturer didn't do their job
correctly or didn't followsafety standards that if, say
they were selling dog food, theywould have to follow. And as a
result, people aren't safe,people aren't able to come home,
you lost your son. So I reallywant to thank you for being here
and for being present because Ithink it really demonstrates
(16:53):
that the names in these storiesaren't just names or statistics,
they're people. So thank you,and thank you so much for
sharing Kenzo.
Unknown (17:01):
Over the years, I've seen so many cases that that Jon
Lowy has brought, and the Bradylegal team has brought, of cases
like mine. It's just, they're,they're amazing. To see over and
over again, these similar casesbrought up and where there's
(17:21):
this need to make, you know,especially semiautomatic
handguns safer, especially forgun owners, and for anyone else.
JJ Janflone (17:32):
Well, on that note, Jon, as someone who, as Griffin
said, represented the Dix's, buthas represented other families
in very similar situationsbecause Brady has represented
other families in very similarsituations. I'm wondering if you
could tell our audience a littlebit about what that's like
specifically with these PLCAAdevoted cases, because I assume
that it must be incredibly, insome ways rewarding
(17:55):
understandably, because you getto, you work with really great
people, but at the same time, sofrustrating.
Jon Lowy (18:00):
So first of all, I should say that just recently, I
celebrated my 23rd anniversarywith Brady. And I was hired 23
years ago to represent Griff,and his ex wife, Lynn, Kenzo's
parents. That was my first case.
And, you know, it's frustrating,sure, but it's, it's mostly just
(18:21):
extremely inspiring andsatisfying to represent people
like, like Griff. I mean, I'lluse Griff as an example. The
only reason he wanted to bring alawsuit was because he didn't
want other families to sufferthe way his did. That's the only
(18:43):
reason. He said at many times,that even if he could, if
Beretta was going to award orgive millions of dollars, he
would exchange that for them tochange the way they make guns,
and take nothing, if they justmade their guns safer. So it's
just extremely gratifying andinspiring to represent Griff and
(19:09):
other people like him, like theGustafson's. And I will say
that, you know, these cases,when they go forward, when
they're not blocked by law likePLCAA, they can make a huge
difference. I mean, Griffmentioned that, that this case,
even though we lost ultimatelyin the court, it changed
California law. It also changedthe way some guns are made. And
(19:32):
what happened in that case isone of the the theories was, in
addition to the chamber loaderindicator that Griff talked
about, was we argued that thisgun could have been made with a
built-in lock. Which would, soyou'd have to sort of open the
the or unlock the gun with a keyor a combination in order to
(19:53):
fire it. And if the gun had beenmade with that, this boy would
not have been able to fire it.
And during the trial, we had anexpert show the gun that he
made. And it's basically andit's just his office, with the
internal lock. And Beretta,which is a very highfalutin gun
(20:14):
Company, sort of made fun of us,and poked holes in it. Well,
after the suit, Beretta beganputting out some guns with
internal locks. And a bunch ofother manufacturers began doing
the same thing. And the onlyreason was they knew, even
though they they won in thiscourt case, they might not win
(20:34):
the next one, or the one afterthat. It made sense financially
for them to start, you know,cleaning up their act. They
haven't done it nearly enough,because of PLCAA. They've sort
of backtracked, I think, butthat shows, you know, the sort
of public good that this sort ofcase can do.
Kelly Sampson (20:54):
And kind of underlying all the things we
talked about here, as youmentioned, Jon, that PLCAA was
on the gun lobby's wish list.
And you know, in the face of thelawsuit, on one hand, they were
acting skeptical, but then theygot their act together. So
really want to turn to Aaryanhere, because you and Team
ENOUGH more broadly, have reallybeen working to undermine the
gun lobby for a while now. Andso I'm wondering if you could
(21:15):
talk a little bit about whatit's like to be fighting against
the gun lobby?
Aaryan Rawal (21:21):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's first important toemphasize that many of us aren't
in this fight because of the gunlobby. Most of us are in this
fight, because we have eitherbeen personally affected by gun
violence, or communities havebeen targeted by gun violence,
because gun violence, doesdisproportionately affect
marginalized communities. And Ithink there is sometimes this
impression that people get thatthe NRA is our enemy. And that's
(21:41):
not what my philosophy is andthat's not what our philosophy
is within Team ENOUGH. Webelieve that systemic racism is
our enemy and we believe that atthe end of the day, gun violence
comes from thisinstitutionalized racism. And so
our advocacy isn't just aboutcombating the gun lobby, it's
about removing these underlyingroot causes towards gun
violence, which really, reallyjust worsen this crisis, and
(22:05):
ensure that gun violence is anattack against minority
communities across this country.
With that said, we do recognizethat the gun lobby is complicit
in these systemic injustices andthat they back many of these
horrific policies which lead tothe death of Black and Brown
people across this country. Whenwe look at the gun lobbies work
(22:25):
towards militarizing the police,for example, they have
vigorously pursued militarizinga police force, which really
should protect us, intosomething that isn't protecting
us and that they've reallyoutsized their weapons and
ensured that they are killingmany of us. And so our advocacy
is really about understandinghow the gun lobby can uphold
(22:47):
those systems of racism, whichunfortunately, dominate the gun
violence conversation inAmerica. And it's really about
finding ways that we candismantle those systems. And I
think that PLCAA and morespecifically, repealing and
ruling that PLCAA isunconstitutional, is a critical
step towards that. Because atthe end of the day, we cannot
keep the gun industryaccountable for the dangerous
and frankly, racist policies, ifwe cannot pursue civil
(23:10):
litigation against them. And soI know that is really a
roundabout way of answering thequestion, we really are focused
on that intersection of gunviolence and hate, and keeping
gun, keeping the gun lobbyaccountable for that, is
incredibly important to actuallycombating that intersection.
JJ Janflone (23:26):
I mean, I think that that's so important to
point out. I think that, one Iagree with everything you've
said. And one of the things thatI think is so great is pointing
out, I think, to individualsthat things are complicated.
Things are intersectional, thereis not an easy, two second,
quick, Twitter answers,anything, I think is really
important, especially toremember in the world's
(23:48):
political climate, that it isnow that these having these
conversations like this, even onthis panel are really important
to breaking down. Because Idon't think I can tweet in 140
characters or less what PLCAAis, and why it's important, let
alone why rules that particularlobbies want, are allowed to
have in the US, over the will ofthe American.
And with that I'm wondering ifif we could talk a little bit,
(24:13):
to stay with you, about thisthread that I'm getting here
too, of people getting involvedin activism. So for example,
Griff, you've been in gunviolence prevention since your
son was taken. And I was justwondering what it's been like
for you to see a decision likethis now, after years of
fighting to help protect otheryoung people. And then also for
(24:37):
you Aaryan what it's like, Imean, because you're not much
older than Kenzo was. I mean, Ihate to put you on the spot as
the youth voice. But as our teamENOUGH member, I'm going to do
that to you. So maybe we canstart with you, Griff.
Unknown (24:48):
Okay. It seems to me it's a very important step
forward to realize PLCAA isunconstitutional. There are many
types of arguments you can makeit, it's unconstitutional in
many ways. And I, you know, I'mnot qualified to go into all of
them. But one of the ways is itjust singles out people who are
(25:13):
victims of unsafe firearms orand says "No, you don't get
equal rights under the law."Everybody else is supposed to,
but you don't. Yeah. That's,that's one problem. And so the
(25:34):
federal government is steppingin and saying, wait, you states
can't allow state laws or youcan't bring lawsuits, you know,
civil lawsuits. So, it's veryimportant. And we'll see what
happens. Yeah.
Aaryan Rawal (25:53):
I really want to echo that. But it is so
important to say that PLCAAcan't be enforced, and to see
that we can actually keep thegun lobby accountable. And to
me, I'm, I'm really still shookover it, to be honest. Because I
remember, a year ago, we TeamENOUGH was lobbying for the
repeal of PLCAA. And inCongress, we were literally told
by Republican staffers that thisis common sense, that we
shouldn't be repealing PLCAA, itdoesn't make any sense. But
(26:16):
unfortunately, wasn't going tohappen because of the political
reality around PLCAA and aroundthe gun debate in America. And
so it is so heartening to seethat we are making progress, but
at the same time, I think it isreally important to acknowledge
that this is just one step ofmany that we have to take to
ending the epidemic in America.
Because at the end of the day,PLCAA isn't the cause of combats
in America, systemic racism is.
(26:38):
And until we actually go in andchange our approach to justice
in this country, we aren't goingto end gun violence. And I, it's
really heartening to me to seethat made, we've come one step
closer there. But the fightcertainly isn't finished. And we
have a lot more to do,specifically towards racial
justice.
JJ Janflone (26:56):
Yeah, unfortunately, that's why this
was the name of this podcast,particular podcast was just "a"
victory, not all of thevictories, but I have faith. I
have faith we can get there.
Kelly Sampson (27:05):
I want to turn to Griff and Kris for a moment,
because we talked a lot aboutthe implications of PLCAA. But I
was wondering if you could talka little bit about why the gun
industry isn't pushed, likeother industries, to improve
their products. I mean, if a carcomes out, and it's faulty, and
people sue, they're all, they'realways competing to be safer,
(27:25):
right. And it sounds like whenit comes to guns, there's just
stagnation. So I'm wondering ifyou could talk a little bit
about why gun manufacturers areable to just continue to make
unsafe products.
Unknown (27:37):
It's, it's a mystery, really. I mean, there's another
part of our own lawsuit, whichhad to do with a manual that
came with this Beretta. And itwould have been extremely easy
for Beretta to indicate muchmore clearly the dangers of
(27:57):
unsafe storage. And to indicatethat this gun had a little tiny
thing, they call it the chamberloaded indicator, that was
really designed for police tofeel in the dark. And It didn't
work. It's the, the extractor isthe little thing that pulls out
(28:17):
a empty cartridge casing afterthe bullet has been fired. And,
you know, it didn't work, evenfor highly trained police, to
feel that there was still abullet in the chamber when this
thing stuck out just slightlymore. We don't need to go into
that. But even that was notclearly mentioned in this
(28:39):
manual. And you could put a tagon the trigger of the gun saying
"this is dangerous," you know,"store it safely," this and that
and the other, lots of thingsthey could do. And when gun
makers started building the kindof chamber loaded indicator that
(29:00):
we had had a person design toshow in as a prototype in our
trials. And the gun industry hasexperts, that said "Oh, no,
that'll blow up." They, theywork just fine. And then they
had a little engraving on it.
They said "loaded when up" and alittle red flag showed whenever
(29:21):
there was a bullet in thechamber and save lots of lives.
It's so simple. I mean, it's nota difficult design. So why
didn't they do that moreearlier? It's very mysterious.
Jon Lowy (29:39):
Yeah. If I could jump in, Griff, there was something
that I think shows why theydon't make their product safer.
And it was actually came out, inthe trial of your case, where
Beretta did not put certainsafety features like magazine
disconnect safety into theirguns. And then they once got a
contract from the CanadianMounted Police, right and the
(30:02):
Canadian Mounties said, we wantthis safety device in our guns.
And I forgot how much thecontract was, a million dollars
or more, and they put in thesafety device. And if, when they
knew that children were dyingbecause they didn't put the
safety device in, that didn'tmove them an inch it still was
cheaper to sell the gun withoutsafety feature. When they made
(30:25):
money from the CanadianMounties, they put the safety
feature on a dime, they put itin. So is this all about money
and that's the danger of PLCAAbecause PLCAA insulates them
from accountability. And thewhole one of the major points of
civil litigation is that it putsa price on socially dangerous
(30:46):
conduct. And it's, so when youengage in conduct like don't put
in safety features, and theGriffin Dix's and the Kenzo
Dix's and the J.R. Gustafson'sof the world, pay for that
decision. If you make thecompany begin to pay for that
decision, and pay money to theDix's or the Gustafson's, then
(31:07):
they'll change their behavior.
And that's why civil litigationis so important. And that's why
PLCAA shielding fromaccountability, the gun
industry, enables them to getaway with this extremely
destructive conduct.
Kris Brown (31:20):
I think what Jon and Griff are both saying is so
important. If I could justamplify a few of these points, I
think it's important foreveryone to understand what Jon
is describing, in terms of atleast the gun dealer or the gun
manufacturer conduct here. Andthe Royal Canadian Police and
being able to put these kinds ofsafety features in. Any
(31:43):
manufacturer of any product inthe United States, acting today,
has to make these same kinds ofchoices. What Jon is describing,
in terms of the litigationlandscape, is often the reason
they do, right. When you're inlaw school, you study case,
after case, after case, of tortactions, right? These are civil
liability suits that are broughton behalf of consumers against
(32:07):
major companies, in order toseek remedy for some kind of
harm that has happened. That isthe essence of our entire
litigation system. And whatCongress said, at the behest of
the NRA, years ago with PLCAA,is we're going to except the gun
industry, from basically allcivil litigation. What Jon and
(32:29):
his team have done, since then,is poke major holes in that
immunity. But it still exists.
And what it stops is the kind ofinnovation that Jon and Griff
are talking about. That's whymost of the companies have not
done that. Even though wealready know outside of the
United States, there are gunsfor sale, there are actually
(32:49):
even smart guns, those are gunsthat have certain trigger
identification mechanisms, whereonly the rightful owner of that
gun is able to shoot the gun.
And if you look at the historyof smart gun technology and the
consumer market for smart guns,there's a huge potential
consumer market. What's nothappening is the sale of smart
(33:12):
guns in the United States,because in the few examples
where that has happened, the gunmanufacturers have successfully
shut that down. And it's becausethey don't want to invest more
in these kinds of features. Theywould rather sell more product,
with less investment. And that'swhy the gun industry has put
almost 0 dollars into researchand development, R&D. For most
(33:39):
companies out there operating inthe United States of America,
their R&D budget is big. Why isthat? Because they need to
innovate. They understand that'sthe essence of survival. What
Congress has done with PLCAA iscreate a disincentive for the
gun industry, on that side ofthe equation. And at the same
(34:00):
time, they have precluded otherkinds of basic regulation of
this industry, for example,through the Consumer Product
Safety Commission. So on bothsides of the coin, the National
Rifle Association hashistorically, successfully
blocked the ability of consumersto change this industry to
(34:22):
protect the public safety. Thatis un-American, and that is what
we think should be changed.
Unknown (34:28):
One thing we haven't mentioned is sort of the scope
of the problem, several problemshere. One is that there are
between 450 and 500unintentional gun deaths every
year now. And since the CDCbegan counting them there have
(34:51):
been more unintentional gundeaths than Americans died in
wars. So those deaths mount up.
But, many of the, when whensomeone dies, or when someone is
shot, you know, unintentionally,often, the gun is not named.
Many of those people don't die.
(35:12):
They are, they're non fatallyinjured, huge numbers of those
people. And they sufferenormously, their medical bills
are enormous. And we should notforget them, so
Kris Brown (35:28):
I think that's a really important point Griff.
And I'm so glad that you raisedthat. You know, 8 kids are
unintentionally killed orinjured every single day, by
"family fire," that's theimproper storage of gun and in
the home. And of those eight,seven of them are injured, but
(35:50):
live with the consequences ofthose injuries for the rest of
their lives. I think that's areally important point as we
consider the overall costs, notjust to families, to
individuals, to families, butour society, of treating
individuals who have lifelongsometimes grevious injuries that
(36:12):
impact them for the rest oftheir lives as a result of those
injuries. And I just have to putin a plug for one thing, because
we did a report on this a Bradyseveral years ago, the shooting
costs report. Without theAffordable Care Act, and the
additional coverage thatprovides, nearly two thirds of
all individuals today, who arevictims of gun violence receive
(36:36):
their medical care as a resultof the Affordable Care Act. So
any efforts to undermine that orremove the protections of the
ACA mean not that thoseindividuals won't be treated in
an emergency setting, becausethey will. It's just taxpayers
will pay for that, becauseultimately, we do. But those
(36:57):
people who are shot and injuredthrough no fault of their own
will have no additional coveragefor the kinds of treatment that
allow them to live somesemblance of a normal life, that
is not a benefit to them. It'snot an individual benefit to
their communities. And it'scertainly not a societal
benefit. We need to internalizethat when we're thinking about
(37:20):
both the impact on individualsof these kinds of shootings,
their families, and theavailability of affordable and
meaningful health insurance tocover those victims.
JJ Janflone (37:30):
And so I think as we start to wrap up, I just want
to really sort of address anaudience question that I get
every time we discuss PLCAA,which, surprisingly, is actually
quite a lot, which is, is thissomething where, you know, is
this essentially saying that ifI use a shampoo, and it makes my
hair fall out, I'm entitled tosue, but if I use a gun, and it
(37:54):
misfires and, you know, blows upin my hand, I can't sue the gun
manufacturing, you the gunmanufacturer, you know, like,
how did that happen?
Jon Lowy (38:03):
Literally, a gun dealer, if he sold a tuna fish
sandwich to his customer, and itwas spoiled, and it caused food
poisoning, there's no questionthat gun dealer could be sued.
There are many cases I couldtell you about where a gun
dealer would negligently sell orsupply a gun to someone, to a
(38:25):
gun trafficker, or just someoneelse who's dangerous. In some of
those cases they would haveimmunity. Exact same person. And
it happened because the gunindustry had enough clout in the
US Senate to get it passed. I donot think they have that clout
today. And so I'm very hopefulabout you know, Team ENOUGH and
Brady and others lobbying to, torepeal PLCAA if it's not
(38:50):
completely struck down in thecourts, but that's, it certainly
did have that clout in 2005.
Unknown (38:57):
You know, a gun dealer, sold assault weapons,
advertising that they werefingerprint resistant, to the
the guy who murdered many peoplein the 101 California street
shooting of a law firm that hethought he had been, you know,
(39:20):
done wrong by, which led to thewhat's now the Giffords Law
Kelly Sampson (39:26):
I'm just going to chime in on that last question,
Center.
too, about being able to sue theshampoo manufacturer but not the
gun manufacturer. And one thingthat's kind of been implicit in
this conversation, but I justwant to make explicit, is that
there are exceptions to PLCAA.
So it's not that it wouldprevent you from bringing any
case ever, and that's why wehave the record of cases that we
have. It's just that it makes itso much harder, and puts a
(39:49):
barrier in your way. And as weall sort of talked about,
litigation can be veryexpensive. It can be very
emotional. It can be verytaxing, and so what PLCAA has
been able to do isdisincentivize attorneys and
clients from wanting to takethat risk and bring those cases.
And that has an overall effect.
(40:11):
Because there are industrieslike the automobile industry,
the tobacco industry, wherethere's people all over because
the roads a little bit smoother.
And Jon has been really goodabout knocking down those
barriers all over, but theystill exist. And so it still is,
it is a barrier, but it's not acomplete, it's not a complete
bar. And that's why Jon's beenworking so hard to find those
(40:31):
places and attack it.
And in the time that we have, Iwant to ask a question to
everybody on the panel, whichis, where do we go from here? So
obviously, the case that we'retalking about said that PLCAA
was unconstitutional, butthere's a possibility that will
be appealed. So what do we do tocontinue to push towards getting
(40:55):
PLCAA ultimately repealed? Andwhat can listeners who are
really concerned about all thethings that we talked about
today, do to get involved?
Kris Brown (41:02):
I'll chime in first, and then everyone else can can
chime in as well. So obviously,please support Brady, Jon and
his legal team have beenfighting in the courts for 30
years. And one of our chiefobjectives is to have PLCAA
overturned. Obviously, the casewe're talking about is a
(41:24):
significant victory in thatjourney. But we could not do
that without support of folkslike you. So please go to our
website, amplify the importanceof this, support our work, and
also understand that, you know,the courts are a really
important component for us. Ithink Kelly, really well said,
we've poked a lot of holes inPLCAA. So we're continuing to do
(41:45):
that. We also want it ruledunconstitutional. That's one
front. The other is legislative.
And that's why this election isreally important, who sits on
our Supreme Court is veryimportant. We're very concerned
about the process that's takingplace right now. We don't think
that it's a fair process. Andultimately, regardless of who's
(42:06):
put on, but certainly, if it is,Amy Comey Barrett, based on what
we see of her, we're veryconcerned about how a court,
ultimately, might rule on manycases. And so we want to be
very, very clear with you thatthere is a path forward, both in
the courts, and we're advancingthat, but also legislatively
(42:27):
with through the work of TeamENOUGH and Bradym to overturn
PLCAA is a major priority in thenext Congress. And so you can
find out more information aboutwhat we're doing on all of these
things at our website,BradyUnited org.
Griffin Dix (42:43):
I would second that completely. Jon Lowy has put
together a whole network oflawyers who work pro bono for
victims of gun violence whenthey can find a lawsuit that
they can bring, despite PLCAA.
And it's very helpful to pushthe boundaries and that lawsuit
(43:03):
is an example of pushing theboundaries and being successful.
And Adam, Representative AdamSchiff has a law, a bill, a
federal bill to overturn PLCAAat the federal level. So yeah,
we should all support him.
Jon Lowy (43:25):
And I'd add to that for one, reach out to us at
Brady if you think there's apotential lawsuit against the
gun industry and we will givefree advice and consider taking
the case or finding a lawyer whowho would. If you, whether it's
an unintentional shooting or acriminal shooting, where you
(43:47):
wonder "how did this shooter gethis hands on a gun?" Often it's
because someone in the gunindustry did something wrong,
and there may be a lawsuitthere. And then, you know, get
involved like you know, Griffhas for decades, but you don't
have to be personally affected.
I mean, somebody great said andI'm forgetting who it was that
that you know, we we can't have,we won't, can't have a true
(44:11):
change until those who are notaffected care as much as those
who are affected. And I thinkthat's true for all of us. So
everyone should just step up,and a good way to start is to
connect with Brady, connect withTeam ENOUGB and get to work.
JJ Janflone (44:30):
And as always, all of those resources will be
linked to in the descriptor ofthe, of the podcasts and of this
live. We always do that. But Ido, if I can highlight really
quickly since, if we can maybejust give like little snaps for
for for Lowy and Kelly, and therest of the legal team. Because
I am, the amount of work thatlegal does and puts forth, the
number of people that theyrepresent, and I'm still -- it's
(44:53):
floors me. And I'm still shockedthat more people don't realize
the immense amount of pro bonowork that Brady Legal does for
survivors of gun violence. So Iwant to, I want to recognize
that and I also want to thankyou again, Griff, for coming on
and telling us about your son,particularly on your birthday.
Jon Lowy (45:11):
Can I can I say briefly a story which tells you
who Griff Dix is, is the dayafter Kenzo was killed, the
first thing that Griff did withLynn, was to go to the house of
the boy who shot and killedKenzo. To ask him, how is he
doing? Was he okay? That tellsyou all you need to know about
(45:34):
Griff.
Unknown (45:35):
That poor boy, you can't imagine what he went
through. He made a horriblemistake, but it was the design
of a gun, as well as hismistake. You know, 14 year old
boys make mistakes sometimes.
It's up to adults to see thatthey don't end in someone's
death. So we all have to stepup, as you say.
Kris Brown (45:59):
Well Griff, thank you for everything that you've
done, not only in working withJon to try to bring about
reform, but in all of the workthat you've done, and Brady,
leading the charge inCalifornia, you and several
others, who unfortunately, likeyou, are joined by having lost
(46:20):
children and loved ones to gunviolence. It's still just an
incredible inspiration that youhave dedicated your lives to
ensure that that never happensto anyone else. And I think
John's remarks about you arejust so moving. There are almost
no words for it. But we owe youa huge debt of gratitude. And
(46:41):
thank you so much for your workto save lives. You've made a
real, real difference.
Griffin Dix (46:46):
Thank you. And now we're joined by many young
people who are doing great work.
Kris Brown (46:53):
True inspiration, the torch has been passed.
JJ Janflone (46:57):
Well, I want to thank you all for coming on. I
want to thank our audience forbeing here with us. And if
you're listening to this afterit was live, and you have any
additional questions for ourfantastic panel, Kelly, Jon,
Kris, Griffin, Aaryan, let meknow and I will forward those
questions along. But again,thank you all so much for being
here.
(47:22):
So Kelly for this week's story,not to not to focus too much on
Florida anymore. We're going toNew York, upstate New York. Are
you excited?
Kelly Sampson (47:29):
I am.
JJ Janflone (47:30):
Well, an upstate New York's police deputy's gun
accidentally discharged in arestaurant and injured two
people.
Kelly Sampson (47:36):
Oh that sucks.
JJ Janflone (47:37):
Right. They were about 20 miles north of Syracuse
and a restaurant called TheGrape and Grog which by the way,
I will say, I love that name.
Kelly Sampson (47:44):
Mm hmm.
JJ Janflone (47:45):
The officer was an off duty deputy. The handgun
went off while he was seated ata table and then the bullet went
through the bottom of his pants.
It ricocheted off the floor, itstruck a 38 year old woman and a
10 year old girl.
Kelly Sampson (47:58):
Oh no.
JJ Janflone (48:00):
Yeah, so the woman suffered a minor injury to her
right foot. The girl was treatedfor a laceration to her right
thigh and elbow.
Kelly Sampson (48:05):
Thank God, I mean, I'm saying not thank God
that happened. But I'm glad itwas not
JJ Janflone (48:09):
Yeah, no one was seriously injured. They
actually, no one even needed togo to the hospital.
Kelly Sampson (48:14):
Oh, good, good.
JJ Janflone (48:15):
Very minor injuries, police are
investigating but evidence doesindicate that the discharge was
accidental. My question is, isthat I want to know it was this
a flaw, was this something wherethe gun sort of went off on its
own, did he jostle it? Was itimproperly stored? You know,
what, what made this quoteunquote accidental?
Kelly Sampson (48:34):
Yeah. Ah, that's not. Oh, man. You're just trying
to have a nice meal with yourkid.
JJ Janflone (48:42):
Right?
Kelly Sampson (48:44):
Y'all I always get to the end of these. And I'm
just like, well, what are words?
What can I really say?
Unknown (48:52):
I think that's a good way to end "unbelievable but."
What are words?
JJ Janflone (48:59):
I begin this week's news wrap up by celebrating the
work of parents and survivorsPatricia and Manuel Oliver their
nonprofit, Change the Ref,created an AI image of their
son, Joaquin Oliver. Joaquin waskilled in the mass shooting at
Marjory Stoneman Douglas HighSchool in Parkland, Florida.
"It's very hard to look at this"Patricia acknowledged in the
video before the clip gives wayto an impassioned plea from
Joaq, Joaquin, nickname, toreplace my vote and support,
(49:22):
"politicians who care more aboutpeople's lives than the gun
lobby's money." "People arestill getting killed by guns."
The reanimated team says in thevideo, "everyone knows but they
don't do anything. I'm tired ofwaiting for someone to fix it."
While pointing out thatNovember's election would have
been his first opportunity tovote, the AI version of Joaquin
urges viewers to vote with himin mind insisting "we've got to
keep on fighting, and we've gotto end this."
(49:44):
Meanwhile, in New York, AnthonyJefferson, 39, is also calling
for gun violence prevention.
Jefferson made national newswhen a video went viral of him
being shot in the thigh whileshielding his children, ages
six, five, and two, from gunfireat a car dealership. The
dramatic surveillance video fromSeptember shows Jefferson
scooping up his three youngestchildren, then diving on top of
them as three gunman fired shotsinside On the Road Automotive, a
(50:04):
car dealership in New York City.
Jefferson his children werethere trying to buy his wife a
car for her birthday. As herecovers from the gunshot,
Jefferson can't walk. But hisbiggest concern is how the
shooting has affected hischildren. "My kids they are my
heroes. You know, they call me ahero but they are my heroes" he
said. More important, he had amessage from those who may be
(50:24):
encouraged to pick up a gunsaying, "Y'all gotta be mindful.
Stop the shootings. Just putdown the guns. That's it."
Are you interested in sharingwith the podcast? Listeners can
get in touch with us here atRed, Blue and Brady via phone or
text message. Simply call ortext us at 480-744-3452 with
(50:44):
your thoughts, questions,concerns, ideas, whatever!
And you know what else you canshare? Chocolate. Come join me
in eating your 2020 feelings byshopping Hu's Kitchen Chocolate
which is free of dairy, gluten,refined sugar, palm oil and cane
sugar. My personal favorite arethe dark gems. It's a bag
bursting with 70% dark chocolate-- paleo style. Click on the
link in the description of ourepisode to help support the show
(51:06):
and to buy you or your lovedones some tasty treats.
Thanks for listening. As always,Brady's life saving work in
Congress, the courts andcommunities across the country
is made possible thanks to you.
For more information on Brady orhow to get involved in the fight
against gun violence, pleaselike and subscribe to the
podcast. Get in touch with us atBradyunited.org or on social
@Bradybuzz. Be brave andremember, take action not sides.
Hey everybody, this is the legal disclaimer where I
tell you that the views,thoughts, and opinions shared on
this podcast blog solely to ourguests and hosts, and not
necessarily Brady or Brady'saffiliates. Please note this
podcast contains discussions ofviolence that some people may
find disturbing. It's okay -- wefind it disturbing too.
Hey everybody. Welcome back toanother live episode of Red,
(00:43):
Blue and Brady. Today Kelly andI are joined by Brady president
Kris Brown. Team ENOUGH Fairfaxmember, Aaryan Rawal, survivor
and activist Dr. Griffin Dix andJon Lowy, Chief Counsel and VP
of Legal at Brady. Today yourpanel is together to discuss
news that the Superior Court ofPennsylvania has held the
federal gun industry protectionlaw, the Protection of the
Lawful Commerce and Arms Act,affectionately called PLCAA, is
(01:06):
unconstitutional in its entirety-- the first appeals court to do
so. What does it mean and wheredo we go from here? Don't worry,
our panelists have the answers.
Then in our "unbelievable but"section, Kelly, I talk about how
even a firearms expert can causean unintentional shooting, if
not careful. Finally, in ournews wrap up, we talked about a
AI image used by change the ref,and a call for gun violence
(01:28):
prevention in New York City.
I am so excited to have youpanelists here today. I think
we've got such a range ofexperiences here from
survivorship to legal, what Iwill call "legal eagles," to
(01:50):
just longtime activists. So Iwant to go ahead and hop in and
maybe just one by one, we canhave everybody introduce
themselves?
Jon Lowy (01:56):
Sure. My name is Jon Lowy, I'm Vice President of
Legal and Chief Counsel at Brady
Kelly Sampson (02:01):
Hey everyone. My name is Aaryan, my pronouns are
he/him/his. I am a youthadvocate in Fairfax County,
Virginia, the chapter there forTeam ENOUGH Fairfax.
Kris Brown (02:09):
Hi, everyone. I'm Kris Brown and I'm the president
of Brady.
Griffin Dix (02:14):
Griffin Dix, with the Oakland Brady chapter. I'm
co-chair of the chapter inOakland, California.
JJ Janflone (02:21):
And it's very exciting that we have, it's
weird, it's very rare nowanymore that we have an all
Brady panel. But it's veryexciting to see the mix between
people who work at Bradydirectly and people, well
person, who runs Brady, Kris,and then some of our fantastic
Team ENOUGH members and chaptermembers. So it's just it's
really great to have all of youhere. And I want to start by
(02:42):
turning to Jon Lowy,affectionately normally called
Lowy by those in-the-know, ifyou could explain to our
listeners, you know, why, whywe're here. Why? What is PLCAA,
or the Protection of LawfulCommerce in Arms Act? You know,
what is it? Why does it matter?
Can you give us a law schoolversion of Schoolhouse Rock?
Sure.
Jon Lowy (03:02):
Well, PLCAA is a federal law, that when George W.
Bush was president, it was theNRA's number one agenda item.
They could have picked anythingthey wanted to protect the gun
industry, and what they pickedwas, was PLCAA. And what it does
(03:22):
is, it gives the gun industryunique protection from civil
liability. So basic negligencelaw, which requires all of us to
use reasonable care in what wedo. It applies to all of us, we
can all be liable if we'renegligent, except if you're a
gun company. In many cases, youcan get special protection that,
(03:46):
again, no person or industry inAmerica has. So it's quite
outrageous. It was enacted in2005 and it remains law; it
prevents gun companies frombeing held liable in many cases,
not all cases, we get around atsome, there are some exceptions,
but a lot of cases.
JJ Janflone (04:05):
And I think that that sets up brilliantly why
we've all gathered here todayfor this webinar, which is
specifically to discuss, youknow, the title of this is "A
Major Victory (04:14):
PLCAA found unconstitutional," something
that just happened in the news,a very recent PLCAA decision.
And and, Kris, I'm wondering ifyou could articulate to our
audience, you know, whathappened in that recent
decision?
Kris Brown (04:28):
Well, I think john is in a better position to
articulate what happened in thatdecision, because we've been
looking at various efforts inthe litigation realm since PLCAA
was passed. You know,ostensibly, when you talk to
yeah, members of the NRA peoplelike Wayne LaPierre, what
(04:48):
they'll say is, PLCAA wasnecessary to protect the gun
industry from litigation thatwould have completely bankrupted
the gun industry. That's nottrue. It's one of the only
product immunity, or productliability immunity laws, that
(05:08):
ostensibly, purported byCongress to provide very broad
immunity to the gun industry.
There is no other industry inAmerican life today that has a
law that attempts to shield itfrom liability for basic kinds
of issues related to theirproducts. And the case that Jon
will talk about in just asecond, I think the important
(05:32):
thing because Jon is notsomeone, as we know Lowy very
well, who's going to toot hisown horn. But when you're
looking at litigation, andyou're looking at a law like
PLCAA, that's attempting toprovide such broad immunity to
the industry, you have to thinkabout what kind of case you're
going to bring, and how you canreally attack the underpinnings
(05:55):
of that case to reallydemonstrate to courts the
negative impact on publicpolicy, and American life, and
basic justice, that's renderedas a result of the law. And it
took a long time to figure outwhat kind of case to bring
forward. Ultimately, theGustafson case is that case, and
(06:16):
obviously, we know thatPennsylvania court got it right.
But I'll leave it to Jon to givethe particulars and detail how
it is that we came to bring thatcase, and hopefully some of the
wonderful statements made by thecourt about PLCAA in that case
Jon.
Jon Lowy (06:39):
Sure. So Thanks, Kris.
So as Kris said, you know, we atBrady have tried to challenge
PLCAA for a number of years. Andwhat we decided was a case like
the Gustafson case was a perfectvehicle for that. And that case
involves a tragic, sort of,situation, and Griffin Dix we'll
(07:01):
talk about that in more detail.
But it was a J.R. Gustafson wasa 13 year old boy. He was at a
friend's house, friend was alsoabout the same age. That friend
had a gun which was unloaded, itdid not have a magazine,
(07:23):
ammunition magazine, in the gun.
So he thought it was completelyunloaded, pointed at a J.R. and
pulled the trigger. There wasaround in the chamber which he
did not know about and it killedJR. And there are safety
features such as a magazinedisconnect safety, which has
been around for over 100 years,that would prevent a gun from
firing in that sort ofsituation. Any other industry
(07:44):
would be required to put in thatsort of safety device. The gun
industry is not required,because they are exempt from
product safety oversight, underan exception to the Consumer
Product Safety Act. But theyshould be subject to civil
liability lawsuit. Yet whathappened, we brought a lawsuit
on behalf of Gustafson againstthe gun manufacturer, saying
(08:05):
they should have put in thesafety feature, and it was
dismissed, because the trialjudge said PLCAA provides
immunity to this gun company.
And we appealed it what theappellate court said was, maybe
PLCAA does bar this case butConstitution does not allow
(08:26):
Congress to prevent Pennsylvaniacourts from providing civil
justice to the Gustafson's orpeople like them. And the reason
it's unconstitutional, this getsa little wonky, is the 10th
amendment, which ironically, Imean, 10th Amendment basically
protects states right statesovereignty. Ironically, the
(08:50):
10th amendment was used by gunlobby challenges to the Brady
Law, and also to gun-free zone,Gun-Free School Zones Act. But
in this case, what the courtheld correctly, we believe, is
that what PLCAA does is itbasically says to states like
(09:11):
Pennsylvania, you can't use yourcourts to give civil justice to
victims of gun violence. But ifyou want to you can use your
legislature and provide civiljustice that way. And the
federal, government under ourConstitution, does not have the
authority to tell states whatbranch of government they use to
(09:33):
make laws or to apply theircivil justice system, and
therefore, it'sunconstitutional. So, as the
court said, PLCAA is repugnantto the Constitution of the
United States and is of no forcein effect.
Kelly Sampson (09:48):
I just want to pivot a moment to Dr. Dix or, if
you prefer Griff, just let meknow. Because you lost your son
Kenzo in 1994. And I waswondering, if you're
comfortable, if you could tellus first, what was he like? What
kind of person was he? And thenif you could also share with us
what happened to your son thatyear?
Griffin Dix (10:09):
Okay. Kenzo was fifteen in 1994. He was a
wonderful, joyful kid, freshmanin high school, on the
basketball team and a goodstudent. Lots of fun. It's, it's
very difficult to describe allof the joy he brought to us, you
(10:33):
know, every day. Just, he wasright on track for any, we
discovered, actually, somewriting he had done for an
English class after he died,that said, it was his 10 year
plan. And he said, well, I liketaking care of people. Maybe
(10:55):
I'll be a doctor, but actually,I don't like treating illnesses,
that is a little weird. But andmaybe animals, I like animals a
lot. This and that and theother. He was, he liked writing
poetry and he was just lots offun. So what happened? One
(11:16):
Sunday, he went over to afriend's house. The boy was 14
years old, and they were up inthe boy's bedroom. And without
telling Kenzo, the boy decidedhe would show Kenzo his father's
gun. So the boy went down to hisfather's bedroom to get the gun,
(11:39):
the handgun, semiautomatichandgun that the father kept,
loaded and unlocked next to hisbed, supposedly, for protection.
He picked up this Beretta 92Compact L, took out a magazine
that was loaded with bullets,and picked up an empty magazine
(12:01):
and walked back up to thebedroom where Kenzo was, walked
in the door and slipped in themagazine that had, that was
empty, and pulled the triggerexpecting, he thought he'd
unloaded it and expected the gunto just go "click." And the
(12:22):
bullet still hidden in thechamber killed Kenzo. So in our
case, a magazine disconnectsafety device would not have
saved Kenzo's life, reallybecause he had put an empty
magazine back in. But we learnedlater that this boy had been to
the shooting range with hisfather and had fired that
(12:44):
particular Beretta, learned alittle bit about it, but not
enough. So obviously, the boyhad made horrible mistakes, but
they couldn't hit him. If theyhad had a prominent chamber
loaded indicator, he would haveseen it on the day that he
(13:05):
walked back up to the bedroom,and he would have seen that
there was something sticking upright on the top of their gun,
telling him that there was stilla bullet in the chamber.
So Jon Lowy argued our case, andultimately, there were three
trials. There was jurymisconduct, there was a hung
(13:27):
jury. But ultimately, we lostthe case, but we came very close
to winning. And this is beforePLCAA was passed. And actually
in California, we passed lawssetting safety standards for
handguns, including a lawrequiring prominent chamber
(13:48):
loading indicators, and magazinedisconnect safety devices,
thanks to the Brady chapters inCalifornia, wonderful volunteer
leaders. And the rate ofunintentional gun deaths in
California and dropped by twothirds -- 66%. So the laws that
(14:10):
we're talking about save lots oflives. But we were devastated
when we began, when we learnedabout Kenzo death. And then we
began learning about theloopholes in our gun laws, that
guns are exempt from ConsumerProduct Safety, from regulation
(14:31):
by the Consumer Product SafetyCommission, first of all, and,
and that this gun had beendesigned for military and law
enforcement, not for civilians.
It didn't have the safetyfeatures that civilians need.
But it had been sold to civilianhouseholds that have kids. And
(14:52):
actually the gun industry andhad people, "You really need to
have your gun stored where it'sinstantly available." And they
kept playing up the need toprotect yourself with a gun
that's immediately available --very irresponsible. So it really
(15:13):
should have, I mean, you know,lawsuits, civil lawsuits have
been used for years to giveincentive to manufacturers of
products to make their productssafer.
Kelly Sampson (15:35):
I just wanted to thank you for sharing your son's
life with us and sharing yourstory and also for the courage
that you had to work with us inlight of that.
Griffin Dix (15:47):
Thank you.
JJ Janflone (15:48):
I think, Griff, one of the reasons why your words
are so powerful is that I thinka lot of people hear something
like PLCAA, it sounds like awonky word, right? Or they hear
a legal case, or they hear thatBrady was involved in a legal
case, and it was in a statecourt or, and especially for
someone who's not familiar withthe law, it seems like a you
(16:09):
know, like a lot of highfalutinnonsense, to be honest. That
it's stuff that people arevoting on, that it's stuff, it's
a court case that went on, asyou said, court cases take a
long time, there were threeversions of them. This PLCAA
case seems like it, it might bethis really difficult thing for
people to grasp. But at the endof the day, these cases exist
because people have to go homewithout their loved ones. These
(16:32):
these cases exist because a gunmanufacturer didn't do their job
correctly or didn't followsafety standards that if, say
they were selling dog food, theywould have to follow. And as a
result, people aren't safe,people aren't able to come home,
you lost your son. So I reallywant to thank you for being here
and for being present because Ithink it really demonstrates
(16:53):
that the names in these storiesaren't just names or statistics,
they're people. So thank you,and thank you so much for
sharing Kenzo.
Unknown (17:01):
Over the years, I've seen so many cases that that Jon
Lowy has brought, and the Bradylegal team has brought, of cases
like mine. It's just, they're,they're amazing. To see over and
over again, these similar casesbrought up and where there's
(17:21):
this need to make, you know,especially semiautomatic
handguns safer, especially forgun owners, and for anyone else.
JJ Janflone (17:32):
Well, on that note, Jon, as someone who, as Griffin
said, represented the Dix's, buthas represented other families
in very similar situationsbecause Brady has represented
other families in very similarsituations. I'm wondering if you
could tell our audience a littlebit about what that's like
specifically with these PLCAAdevoted cases, because I assume
that it must be incredibly, insome ways rewarding
(17:55):
understandably, because you getto, you work with really great
people, but at the same time, sofrustrating.
Jon Lowy (18:00):
So first of all, I should say that just recently, I
celebrated my 23rd anniversarywith Brady. And I was hired 23
years ago to represent Griff,and his ex wife, Lynn, Kenzo's
parents. That was my first case.
And, you know, it's frustrating,sure, but it's, it's mostly just
(18:21):
extremely inspiring andsatisfying to represent people
like, like Griff. I mean, I'lluse Griff as an example. The
only reason he wanted to bring alawsuit was because he didn't
want other families to sufferthe way his did. That's the only
(18:43):
reason. He said at many times,that even if he could, if
Beretta was going to award orgive millions of dollars, he
would exchange that for them tochange the way they make guns,
and take nothing, if they justmade their guns safer. So it's
just extremely gratifying andinspiring to represent Griff and
(19:09):
other people like him, like theGustafson's. And I will say
that, you know, these cases,when they go forward, when
they're not blocked by law likePLCAA, they can make a huge
difference. I mean, Griffmentioned that, that this case,
even though we lost ultimatelyin the court, it changed
California law. It also changedthe way some guns are made. And
(19:32):
what happened in that case isone of the the theories was, in
addition to the chamber loaderindicator that Griff talked
about, was we argued that thisgun could have been made with a
built-in lock. Which would, soyou'd have to sort of open the
the or unlock the gun with a keyor a combination in order to
(19:53):
fire it. And if the gun had beenmade with that, this boy would
not have been able to fire it.
And during the trial, we had anexpert show the gun that he
made. And it's basically andit's just his office, with the
internal lock. And Beretta,which is a very highfalutin gun
(20:14):
Company, sort of made fun of us,and poked holes in it. Well,
after the suit, Beretta beganputting out some guns with
internal locks. And a bunch ofother manufacturers began doing
the same thing. And the onlyreason was they knew, even
though they they won in thiscourt case, they might not win
(20:34):
the next one, or the one afterthat. It made sense financially
for them to start, you know,cleaning up their act. They
haven't done it nearly enough,because of PLCAA. They've sort
of backtracked, I think, butthat shows, you know, the sort
of public good that this sort ofcase can do.
Kelly Sampson (20:54):
And kind of underlying all the things we
talked about here, as youmentioned, Jon, that PLCAA was
on the gun lobby's wish list.
And you know, in the face of thelawsuit, on one hand, they were
acting skeptical, but then theygot their act together. So
really want to turn to Aaryanhere, because you and Team
ENOUGH more broadly, have reallybeen working to undermine the
gun lobby for a while now. Andso I'm wondering if you could
(21:15):
talk a little bit about whatit's like to be fighting against
the gun lobby?
Aaryan Rawal (21:21):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's first important toemphasize that many of us aren't
in this fight because of the gunlobby. Most of us are in this
fight, because we have eitherbeen personally affected by gun
violence, or communities havebeen targeted by gun violence,
because gun violence, doesdisproportionately affect
marginalized communities. And Ithink there is sometimes this
impression that people get thatthe NRA is our enemy. And that's
(21:41):
not what my philosophy is andthat's not what our philosophy
is within Team ENOUGH. Webelieve that systemic racism is
our enemy and we believe that atthe end of the day, gun violence
comes from thisinstitutionalized racism. And so
our advocacy isn't just aboutcombating the gun lobby, it's
about removing these underlyingroot causes towards gun
violence, which really, reallyjust worsen this crisis, and
(22:05):
ensure that gun violence is anattack against minority
communities across this country.
With that said, we do recognizethat the gun lobby is complicit
in these systemic injustices andthat they back many of these
horrific policies which lead tothe death of Black and Brown
people across this country. Whenwe look at the gun lobbies work
(22:25):
towards militarizing the police,for example, they have
vigorously pursued militarizinga police force, which really
should protect us, intosomething that isn't protecting
us and that they've reallyoutsized their weapons and
ensured that they are killingmany of us. And so our advocacy
is really about understandinghow the gun lobby can uphold
(22:47):
those systems of racism, whichunfortunately, dominate the gun
violence conversation inAmerica. And it's really about
finding ways that we candismantle those systems. And I
think that PLCAA and morespecifically, repealing and
ruling that PLCAA isunconstitutional, is a critical
step towards that. Because atthe end of the day, we cannot
keep the gun industryaccountable for the dangerous
and frankly, racist policies, ifwe cannot pursue civil
(23:10):
litigation against them. And soI know that is really a
roundabout way of answering thequestion, we really are focused
on that intersection of gunviolence and hate, and keeping
gun, keeping the gun lobbyaccountable for that, is
incredibly important to actuallycombating that intersection.
JJ Janflone (23:26):
I mean, I think that that's so important to
point out. I think that, one Iagree with everything you've
said. And one of the things thatI think is so great is pointing
out, I think, to individualsthat things are complicated.
Things are intersectional, thereis not an easy, two second,
quick, Twitter answers,anything, I think is really
important, especially toremember in the world's
(23:48):
political climate, that it isnow that these having these
conversations like this, even onthis panel are really important
to breaking down. Because Idon't think I can tweet in 140
characters or less what PLCAAis, and why it's important, let
alone why rules that particularlobbies want, are allowed to
have in the US, over the will ofthe American.
And with that I'm wondering ifif we could talk a little bit,
(24:13):
to stay with you, about thisthread that I'm getting here
too, of people getting involvedin activism. So for example,
Griff, you've been in gunviolence prevention since your
son was taken. And I was justwondering what it's been like
for you to see a decision likethis now, after years of
fighting to help protect otheryoung people. And then also for
(24:37):
you Aaryan what it's like, Imean, because you're not much
older than Kenzo was. I mean, Ihate to put you on the spot as
the youth voice. But as our teamENOUGH member, I'm going to do
that to you. So maybe we canstart with you, Griff.
Unknown (24:48):
Okay. It seems to me it's a very important step
forward to realize PLCAA isunconstitutional. There are many
types of arguments you can makeit, it's unconstitutional in
many ways. And I, you know, I'mnot qualified to go into all of
them. But one of the ways is itjust singles out people who are
(25:13):
victims of unsafe firearms orand says "No, you don't get
equal rights under the law."Everybody else is supposed to,
but you don't. Yeah. That's,that's one problem. And so the
(25:34):
federal government is steppingin and saying, wait, you states
can't allow state laws or youcan't bring lawsuits, you know,
civil lawsuits. So, it's veryimportant. And we'll see what
happens. Yeah.
Aaryan Rawal (25:53):
I really want to echo that. But it is so
important to say that PLCAAcan't be enforced, and to see
that we can actually keep thegun lobby accountable. And to
me, I'm, I'm really still shookover it, to be honest. Because I
remember, a year ago, we TeamENOUGH was lobbying for the
repeal of PLCAA. And inCongress, we were literally told
by Republican staffers that thisis common sense, that we
shouldn't be repealing PLCAA, itdoesn't make any sense. But
(26:16):
unfortunately, wasn't going tohappen because of the political
reality around PLCAA and aroundthe gun debate in America. And
so it is so heartening to seethat we are making progress, but
at the same time, I think it isreally important to acknowledge
that this is just one step ofmany that we have to take to
ending the epidemic in America.
Because at the end of the day,PLCAA isn't the cause of combats
in America, systemic racism is.
(26:38):
And until we actually go in andchange our approach to justice
in this country, we aren't goingto end gun violence. And I, it's
really heartening to me to seethat made, we've come one step
closer there. But the fightcertainly isn't finished. And we
have a lot more to do,specifically towards racial
justice.
JJ Janflone (26:56):
Yeah, unfortunately, that's why this
was the name of this podcast,particular podcast was just "a"
victory, not all of thevictories, but I have faith. I
have faith we can get there.
Kelly Sampson (27:05):
I want to turn to Griff and Kris for a moment,
because we talked a lot aboutthe implications of PLCAA. But I
was wondering if you could talka little bit about why the gun
industry isn't pushed, likeother industries, to improve
their products. I mean, if a carcomes out, and it's faulty, and
people sue, they're all, they'realways competing to be safer,
(27:25):
right. And it sounds like whenit comes to guns, there's just
stagnation. So I'm wondering ifyou could talk a little bit
about why gun manufacturers areable to just continue to make
unsafe products.
Unknown (27:37):
It's, it's a mystery, really. I mean, there's another
part of our own lawsuit, whichhad to do with a manual that
came with this Beretta. And itwould have been extremely easy
for Beretta to indicate muchmore clearly the dangers of
(27:57):
unsafe storage. And to indicatethat this gun had a little tiny
thing, they call it the chamberloaded indicator, that was
really designed for police tofeel in the dark. And It didn't
work. It's the, the extractor isthe little thing that pulls out
(28:17):
a empty cartridge casing afterthe bullet has been fired. And,
you know, it didn't work, evenfor highly trained police, to
feel that there was still abullet in the chamber when this
thing stuck out just slightlymore. We don't need to go into
that. But even that was notclearly mentioned in this
(28:39):
manual. And you could put a tagon the trigger of the gun saying
"this is dangerous," you know,"store it safely," this and that
and the other, lots of thingsthey could do. And when gun
makers started building the kindof chamber loaded indicator that
(29:00):
we had had a person design toshow in as a prototype in our
trials. And the gun industry hasexperts, that said "Oh, no,
that'll blow up." They, theywork just fine. And then they
had a little engraving on it.
They said "loaded when up" and alittle red flag showed whenever
(29:21):
there was a bullet in thechamber and save lots of lives.
It's so simple. I mean, it's nota difficult design. So why
didn't they do that moreearlier? It's very mysterious.
Jon Lowy (29:39):
Yeah. If I could jump in, Griff, there was something
that I think shows why theydon't make their product safer.
And it was actually came out, inthe trial of your case, where
Beretta did not put certainsafety features like magazine
disconnect safety into theirguns. And then they once got a
contract from the CanadianMounted Police, right and the
(30:02):
Canadian Mounties said, we wantthis safety device in our guns.
And I forgot how much thecontract was, a million dollars
or more, and they put in thesafety device. And if, when they
knew that children were dyingbecause they didn't put the
safety device in, that didn'tmove them an inch it still was
cheaper to sell the gun withoutsafety feature. When they made
(30:25):
money from the CanadianMounties, they put the safety
feature on a dime, they put itin. So is this all about money
and that's the danger of PLCAAbecause PLCAA insulates them
from accountability. And thewhole one of the major points of
civil litigation is that it putsa price on socially dangerous
(30:46):
conduct. And it's, so when youengage in conduct like don't put
in safety features, and theGriffin Dix's and the Kenzo
Dix's and the J.R. Gustafson'sof the world, pay for that
decision. If you make thecompany begin to pay for that
decision, and pay money to theDix's or the Gustafson's, then
(31:07):
they'll change their behavior.
And that's why civil litigationis so important. And that's why
PLCAA shielding fromaccountability, the gun
industry, enables them to getaway with this extremely
destructive conduct.
Kris Brown (31:20):
I think what Jon and Griff are both saying is so
important. If I could justamplify a few of these points, I
think it's important foreveryone to understand what Jon
is describing, in terms of atleast the gun dealer or the gun
manufacturer conduct here. Andthe Royal Canadian Police and
being able to put these kinds ofsafety features in. Any
(31:43):
manufacturer of any product inthe United States, acting today,
has to make these same kinds ofchoices. What Jon is describing,
in terms of the litigationlandscape, is often the reason
they do, right. When you're inlaw school, you study case,
after case, after case, of tortactions, right? These are civil
liability suits that are broughton behalf of consumers against
(32:07):
major companies, in order toseek remedy for some kind of
harm that has happened. That isthe essence of our entire
litigation system. And whatCongress said, at the behest of
the NRA, years ago with PLCAA,is we're going to except the gun
industry, from basically allcivil litigation. What Jon and
(32:29):
his team have done, since then,is poke major holes in that
immunity. But it still exists.
And what it stops is the kind ofinnovation that Jon and Griff
are talking about. That's whymost of the companies have not
done that. Even though wealready know outside of the
United States, there are gunsfor sale, there are actually
(32:49):
even smart guns, those are gunsthat have certain trigger
identification mechanisms, whereonly the rightful owner of that
gun is able to shoot the gun.
And if you look at the historyof smart gun technology and the
consumer market for smart guns,there's a huge potential
consumer market. What's nothappening is the sale of smart
(33:12):
guns in the United States,because in the few examples
where that has happened, the gunmanufacturers have successfully
shut that down. And it's becausethey don't want to invest more
in these kinds of features. Theywould rather sell more product,
with less investment. And that'swhy the gun industry has put
almost 0 dollars into researchand development, R&D. For most
(33:39):
companies out there operating inthe United States of America,
their R&D budget is big. Why isthat? Because they need to
innovate. They understand that'sthe essence of survival. What
Congress has done with PLCAA iscreate a disincentive for the
gun industry, on that side ofthe equation. And at the same
(34:00):
time, they have precluded otherkinds of basic regulation of
this industry, for example,through the Consumer Product
Safety Commission. So on bothsides of the coin, the National
Rifle Association hashistorically, successfully
blocked the ability of consumersto change this industry to
(34:22):
protect the public safety. Thatis un-American, and that is what
we think should be changed.
Unknown (34:28):
One thing we haven't mentioned is sort of the scope
of the problem, several problemshere. One is that there are
between 450 and 500unintentional gun deaths every
year now. And since the CDCbegan counting them there have
(34:51):
been more unintentional gundeaths than Americans died in
wars. So those deaths mount up.
But, many of the, when whensomeone dies, or when someone is
shot, you know, unintentionally,often, the gun is not named.
Many of those people don't die.
(35:12):
They are, they're non fatallyinjured, huge numbers of those
people. And they sufferenormously, their medical bills
are enormous. And we should notforget them, so
Kris Brown (35:28):
I think that's a really important point Griff.
And I'm so glad that you raisedthat. You know, 8 kids are
unintentionally killed orinjured every single day, by
"family fire," that's theimproper storage of gun and in
the home. And of those eight,seven of them are injured, but
(35:50):
live with the consequences ofthose injuries for the rest of
their lives. I think that's areally important point as we
consider the overall costs, notjust to families, to
individuals, to families, butour society, of treating
individuals who have lifelongsometimes grevious injuries that
(36:12):
impact them for the rest oftheir lives as a result of those
injuries. And I just have to putin a plug for one thing, because
we did a report on this a Bradyseveral years ago, the shooting
costs report. Without theAffordable Care Act, and the
additional coverage thatprovides, nearly two thirds of
all individuals today, who arevictims of gun violence receive
(36:36):
their medical care as a resultof the Affordable Care Act. So
any efforts to undermine that orremove the protections of the
ACA mean not that thoseindividuals won't be treated in
an emergency setting, becausethey will. It's just taxpayers
will pay for that, becauseultimately, we do. But those
(36:57):
people who are shot and injuredthrough no fault of their own
will have no additional coveragefor the kinds of treatment that
allow them to live somesemblance of a normal life, that
is not a benefit to them. It'snot an individual benefit to
their communities. And it'scertainly not a societal
benefit. We need to internalizethat when we're thinking about
(37:20):
both the impact on individualsof these kinds of shootings,
their families, and theavailability of affordable and
meaningful health insurance tocover those victims.
JJ Janflone (37:30):
And so I think as we start to wrap up, I just want
to really sort of address anaudience question that I get
every time we discuss PLCAA,which, surprisingly, is actually
quite a lot, which is, is thissomething where, you know, is
this essentially saying that ifI use a shampoo, and it makes my
hair fall out, I'm entitled tosue, but if I use a gun, and it
(37:54):
misfires and, you know, blows upin my hand, I can't sue the gun
manufacturing, you the gunmanufacturer, you know, like,
how did that happen?
Jon Lowy (38:03):
Literally, a gun dealer, if he sold a tuna fish
sandwich to his customer, and itwas spoiled, and it caused food
poisoning, there's no questionthat gun dealer could be sued.
There are many cases I couldtell you about where a gun
dealer would negligently sell orsupply a gun to someone, to a
(38:25):
gun trafficker, or just someoneelse who's dangerous. In some of
those cases they would haveimmunity. Exact same person. And
it happened because the gunindustry had enough clout in the
US Senate to get it passed. I donot think they have that clout
today. And so I'm very hopefulabout you know, Team ENOUGH and
Brady and others lobbying to, torepeal PLCAA if it's not
(38:50):
completely struck down in thecourts, but that's, it certainly
did have that clout in 2005.
Unknown (38:57):
You know, a gun dealer, sold assault weapons,
advertising that they werefingerprint resistant, to the
the guy who murdered many peoplein the 101 California street
shooting of a law firm that hethought he had been, you know,
(39:20):
done wrong by, which led to thewhat's now the Giffords Law
Kelly Sampson (39:26):
I'm just going to chime in on that last question,
Center.
too, about being able to sue theshampoo manufacturer but not the
gun manufacturer. And one thingthat's kind of been implicit in
this conversation, but I justwant to make explicit, is that
there are exceptions to PLCAA.
So it's not that it wouldprevent you from bringing any
case ever, and that's why wehave the record of cases that we
have. It's just that it makes itso much harder, and puts a
(39:49):
barrier in your way. And as weall sort of talked about,
litigation can be veryexpensive. It can be very
emotional. It can be verytaxing, and so what PLCAA has
been able to do isdisincentivize attorneys and
clients from wanting to takethat risk and bring those cases.
And that has an overall effect.
(40:11):
Because there are industrieslike the automobile industry,
the tobacco industry, wherethere's people all over because
the roads a little bit smoother.
And Jon has been really goodabout knocking down those
barriers all over, but theystill exist. And so it still is,
it is a barrier, but it's not acomplete, it's not a complete
bar. And that's why Jon's beenworking so hard to find those
(40:31):
places and attack it.
And in the time that we have, Iwant to ask a question to
everybody on the panel, whichis, where do we go from here? So
obviously, the case that we'retalking about said that PLCAA
was unconstitutional, butthere's a possibility that will
be appealed. So what do we do tocontinue to push towards getting
(40:55):
PLCAA ultimately repealed? Andwhat can listeners who are
really concerned about all thethings that we talked about
today, do to get involved?
Kris Brown (41:02):
I'll chime in first, and then everyone else can can
chime in as well. So obviously,please support Brady, Jon and
his legal team have beenfighting in the courts for 30
years. And one of our chiefobjectives is to have PLCAA
overturned. Obviously, the casewe're talking about is a
(41:24):
significant victory in thatjourney. But we could not do
that without support of folkslike you. So please go to our
website, amplify the importanceof this, support our work, and
also understand that, you know,the courts are a really
important component for us. Ithink Kelly, really well said,
we've poked a lot of holes inPLCAA. So we're continuing to do
(41:45):
that. We also want it ruledunconstitutional. That's one
front. The other is legislative.
And that's why this election isreally important, who sits on
our Supreme Court is veryimportant. We're very concerned
about the process that's takingplace right now. We don't think
that it's a fair process. Andultimately, regardless of who's
(42:06):
put on, but certainly, if it is,Amy Comey Barrett, based on what
we see of her, we're veryconcerned about how a court,
ultimately, might rule on manycases. And so we want to be
very, very clear with you thatthere is a path forward, both in
the courts, and we're advancingthat, but also legislatively
(42:27):
with through the work of TeamENOUGH and Bradym to overturn
PLCAA is a major priority in thenext Congress. And so you can
find out more information aboutwhat we're doing on all of these
things at our website,BradyUnited org.
Griffin Dix (42:43):
I would second that completely. Jon Lowy has put
together a whole network oflawyers who work pro bono for
victims of gun violence whenthey can find a lawsuit that
they can bring, despite PLCAA.
And it's very helpful to pushthe boundaries and that lawsuit
(43:03):
is an example of pushing theboundaries and being successful.
And Adam, Representative AdamSchiff has a law, a bill, a
federal bill to overturn PLCAAat the federal level. So yeah,
we should all support him.
Jon Lowy (43:25):
And I'd add to that for one, reach out to us at
Brady if you think there's apotential lawsuit against the
gun industry and we will givefree advice and consider taking
the case or finding a lawyer whowho would. If you, whether it's
an unintentional shooting or acriminal shooting, where you
(43:47):
wonder "how did this shooter gethis hands on a gun?" Often it's
because someone in the gunindustry did something wrong,
and there may be a lawsuitthere. And then, you know, get
involved like you know, Griffhas for decades, but you don't
have to be personally affected.
I mean, somebody great said andI'm forgetting who it was that
that you know, we we can't have,we won't, can't have a true
(44:11):
change until those who are notaffected care as much as those
who are affected. And I thinkthat's true for all of us. So
everyone should just step up,and a good way to start is to
connect with Brady, connect withTeam ENOUGB and get to work.
JJ Janflone (44:30):
And as always, all of those resources will be
linked to in the descriptor ofthe, of the podcasts and of this
live. We always do that. But Ido, if I can highlight really
quickly since, if we can maybejust give like little snaps for
for for Lowy and Kelly, and therest of the legal team. Because
I am, the amount of work thatlegal does and puts forth, the
number of people that theyrepresent, and I'm still -- it's
(44:53):
floors me. And I'm still shockedthat more people don't realize
the immense amount of pro bonowork that Brady Legal does for
survivors of gun violence. So Iwant to, I want to recognize
that and I also want to thankyou again, Griff, for coming on
and telling us about your son,particularly on your birthday.
Jon Lowy (45:11):
Can I can I say briefly a story which tells you
who Griff Dix is, is the dayafter Kenzo was killed, the
first thing that Griff did withLynn, was to go to the house of
the boy who shot and killedKenzo. To ask him, how is he
doing? Was he okay? That tellsyou all you need to know about
(45:34):
Griff.
Unknown (45:35):
That poor boy, you can't imagine what he went
through. He made a horriblemistake, but it was the design
of a gun, as well as hismistake. You know, 14 year old
boys make mistakes sometimes.
It's up to adults to see thatthey don't end in someone's
death. So we all have to stepup, as you say.
Kris Brown (45:59):
Well Griff, thank you for everything that you've
done, not only in working withJon to try to bring about
reform, but in all of the workthat you've done, and Brady,
leading the charge inCalifornia, you and several
others, who unfortunately, likeyou, are joined by having lost
(46:20):
children and loved ones to gunviolence. It's still just an
incredible inspiration that youhave dedicated your lives to
ensure that that never happensto anyone else. And I think
John's remarks about you arejust so moving. There are almost
no words for it. But we owe youa huge debt of gratitude. And
(46:41):
thank you so much for your workto save lives. You've made a
real, real difference.
Griffin Dix (46:46):
Thank you. And now we're joined by many young
people who are doing great work.
Kris Brown (46:53):
True inspiration, the torch has been passed.
JJ Janflone (46:57):
Well, I want to thank you all for coming on. I
want to thank our audience forbeing here with us. And if
you're listening to this afterit was live, and you have any
additional questions for ourfantastic panel, Kelly, Jon,
Kris, Griffin, Aaryan, let meknow and I will forward those
questions along. But again,thank you all so much for being
here.
(47:22):
So Kelly for this week's story,not to not to focus too much on
Florida anymore. We're going toNew York, upstate New York. Are
you excited?
Kelly Sampson (47:29):
I am.
JJ Janflone (47:30):
Well, an upstate New York's police deputy's gun
accidentally discharged in arestaurant and injured two
people.
Kelly Sampson (47:36):
Oh that sucks.
JJ Janflone (47:37):
Right. They were about 20 miles north of Syracuse
and a restaurant called TheGrape and Grog which by the way,
I will say, I love that name.
Kelly Sampson (47:44):
Mm hmm.
JJ Janflone (47:45):
The officer was an off duty deputy. The handgun
went off while he was seated ata table and then the bullet went
through the bottom of his pants.
It ricocheted off the floor, itstruck a 38 year old woman and a
10 year old girl.
Kelly Sampson (47:58):
Oh no.
JJ Janflone (48:00):
Yeah, so the woman suffered a minor injury to her
right foot. The girl was treatedfor a laceration to her right
thigh and elbow.
Kelly Sampson (48:05):
Thank God, I mean, I'm saying not thank God
that happened. But I'm glad itwas not
JJ Janflone (48:09):
Yeah, no one was seriously injured. They
actually, no one even needed togo to the hospital.
Kelly Sampson (48:14):
Oh, good, good.
JJ Janflone (48:15):
Very minor injuries, police are
investigating but evidence doesindicate that the discharge was
accidental. My question is, isthat I want to know it was this
a flaw, was this something wherethe gun sort of went off on its
own, did he jostle it? Was itimproperly stored? You know,
what, what made this quoteunquote accidental?
Kelly Sampson (48:34):
Yeah. Ah, that's not. Oh, man. You're just trying
to have a nice meal with yourkid.
JJ Janflone (48:42):
Right?
Kelly Sampson (48:44):
Y'all I always get to the end of these. And I'm
just like, well, what are words?
What can I really say?
Unknown (48:52):
I think that's a good way to end "unbelievable but."
What are words?
JJ Janflone (48:59):
I begin this week's news wrap up by celebrating the
work of parents and survivorsPatricia and Manuel Oliver their
nonprofit, Change the Ref,created an AI image of their
son, Joaquin Oliver. Joaquin waskilled in the mass shooting at
Marjory Stoneman Douglas HighSchool in Parkland, Florida.
"It's very hard to look at this"Patricia acknowledged in the
video before the clip gives wayto an impassioned plea from
Joaq, Joaquin, nickname, toreplace my vote and support,
(49:22):
"politicians who care more aboutpeople's lives than the gun
lobby's money." "People arestill getting killed by guns."
The reanimated team says in thevideo, "everyone knows but they
don't do anything. I'm tired ofwaiting for someone to fix it."
While pointing out thatNovember's election would have
been his first opportunity tovote, the AI version of Joaquin
urges viewers to vote with himin mind insisting "we've got to
keep on fighting, and we've gotto end this."
(49:44):
Meanwhile, in New York, AnthonyJefferson, 39, is also calling
for gun violence prevention.
Jefferson made national newswhen a video went viral of him
being shot in the thigh whileshielding his children, ages
six, five, and two, from gunfireat a car dealership. The
dramatic surveillance video fromSeptember shows Jefferson
scooping up his three youngestchildren, then diving on top of
them as three gunman fired shotsinside On the Road Automotive, a
(50:04):
car dealership in New York City.
Jefferson his children werethere trying to buy his wife a
car for her birthday. As herecovers from the gunshot,
Jefferson can't walk. But hisbiggest concern is how the
shooting has affected hischildren. "My kids they are my
heroes. You know, they call me ahero but they are my heroes" he
said. More important, he had amessage from those who may be
(50:24):
encouraged to pick up a gunsaying, "Y'all gotta be mindful.
Stop the shootings. Just putdown the guns. That's it."
Are you interested in sharingwith the podcast? Listeners can
get in touch with us here atRed, Blue and Brady via phone or
text message. Simply call ortext us at 480-744-3452 with
(50:44):
your thoughts, questions,concerns, ideas, whatever!
And you know what else you canshare? Chocolate. Come join me
in eating your 2020 feelings byshopping Hu's Kitchen Chocolate
which is free of dairy, gluten,refined sugar, palm oil and cane
sugar. My personal favorite arethe dark gems. It's a bag
bursting with 70% dark chocolate-- paleo style. Click on the
link in the description of ourepisode to help support the show
(51:06):
and to buy you or your lovedones some tasty treats.
Thanks for listening. As always,Brady's life saving work in
Congress, the courts andcommunities across the country
is made possible thanks to you.
For more information on Brady orhow to get involved in the fight
against gun violence, pleaselike and subscribe to the
podcast. Get in touch with us atBradyunited.org or on social
@Bradybuzz. Be brave andremember, take action not sides.
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