#34 - Nathalie Grand & Wayne Greenway - Rediscovering Connection: A Journey to Joy Over Christmas

In this special episode of "Rediscovering Connection," host Shelley Doyle explores the heartfelt initiative "Journey to Joy" which is open to everyone this Christmas, with guests Wayne Greenway and Natalie Grand, connecting from the East Coast of Canada to Switzerland.

This episode delves into the essence of combating loneliness during the holiday season, focusing on a unique 10-day online workshop designed to foster resilience and connection.

Wayne Greenway, founder of Career Aviators and a Career Management Consultant with over 25 years of experience in resilience-building, and Nathalie Grand, a therapist and resilience expert with a background in marketing and positive psychology, share insights on how they came together through the Canadian Positive Psychology Association to address loneliness and promote joy this Christmas.

They discuss the importance of resilience, the distinction between solitude and loneliness, and practical strategies like sleep, emotion labeling, gratitude, and mindfulness for personal growth.

This episode not only highlights their innovative approach to community building over Christmas but also touches on personal stories of career pivots and the power of intentionality in shaping one's identity. Whether you're an 18-year-old feeling disconnected at university or an 80-year-old seeking companionship, this conversation offers valuable lessons on finding joy and connection in life's various stages.

Join us to learn how you can be part of their transformative journey, to navigate the holiday season with more joy and less loneliness.

Register for Journey to Joy: https://wodcop.my.canva.site/journey-to-joy

Guest Bios:

Nathalie Grand: A passionate therapist and resilience expert, specialized in positive and organizational psychology. With nearly 20 years in major consumer goods companies, she transitioned to focus on resilience and well-being through her consultancy firm, inspiring positive mindsets and behaviors. She's currently researching emotion regulation in workplaces.
Website: https://www.nathaliegrand.com/

Wayne Greenway: As the founder of Career Aviators, Wayne has dedicated over 25 years to career management and resilience training across various sectors in Ontario. He co-leads the Psychological Resilience Knowledge Exchange Group and empowers participants through programs like "Journey to Joy: Holidays Reimagined."
Website: https://careeraviators.com/team

Timestamps

• 00:00 - Introduction by S

---
I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your personal or professional life.

Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.

Love & sparkles,
✨Shelley

About Your Host

Hello you, I’m Shelley Doyle, founder of The Communiverse.

Through our 90-day program, The Social Wealth Roadmap, we empower remote and relocated leaders, founders, and creators build real-world social wealth—so they feel connected, trusted, and supported, both online and offline, no matter where they are in the world.

We also support hybrid and distributed teams, combining cutting-edge research on social well-being and social wealth with two decades in corporate communications to deliver mind-shifting talks, workshops, and programs around the world.

Find out more at TheCommuniverse.com or find me on LinkedIn.

Global Workshop Tour "Beyond Screens" is in full swing! Booking now for 2025

To hear when new episodes drop, subscribe to my weekly newsletter, or check out

(00:03):
up with your Christmas program,your journey to joy.

Nathalie (00:07):
Let me let me try and give a little overview like
who's gonna come I think anyonelet's be honest because
Marketing we should be targetinga specific person and so on but
let's be let's face it.
We can all be lonely.
We can be 18 year olds be goingAt first year at university
still haven't made some strongconnections of friends from

(00:28):
school might have moved on andwe can still feel lonely and we
can be 80 year old and ourfriends have gone.
Maybe we don't have so manyfamily members.
We might not be so much mobileto go to events.
And maybe an online gathering iswhat we need.
So, generally speaking, whoeverfeels the need for it is invited
to come to our workshop.

Shelley (00:51):
Hello and welcome to Rediscovering Connection.
I am Shelley Doyle.
I'm here today with two guests,which is a new experience for
me.
I'm not sure if these guys havedone a three way podcast
interview before, but let's seehow it rolls.
So I'm here with Wayne Greenwayand Natalie Grand.
We are calling in from the WestCoast and East Coast of Canada

(01:14):
and over in Switzerland today.
Um, since my last podcastinterview, things are moving on
with my corporate researchpartnership.
Um, they've now decided toextend the scope.
So previously I was going to besurveying just 50 of their
remote and hybrid leaders.
Now we're going to be surveying2, 500 of them before taking 12

(01:35):
of their leaders through myprogram.
Big evolution of how this isshaping up.
I'll keep you posted on furtherdevelopments.
But for now, this conversationis really going to be delving
into the connection that Wayneand Natalie have.
I believe it's through apositive psychology association
and what they're doing thisyear.

(01:55):
This Christmas to help peoplefeel connected, feel a little
bit less lonely.
Um, and I believe this is thesecond year that, uh, you two
have been working on thiscollaboration together.
So, um, Natalie, why don't youkick us off and let us know kind
of how you've come together and,and what you're, what you're
doing this Christmas that peoplemight be interested to join you

(02:17):
on.

Nathalie (02:18):
Sure.
Well, first of all, thank you somuch for hosting us on your
podcast.
I think we're both verydelighted.
I've known Wayne now, I thinkfor three or four years, and we
did meet through the CanadianPositive Psychology Association,
which we're both a member of.
And there was, um, an initiativeto create some mastermind groups

(02:39):
and that's how we connected.
We're in the same mastermindgroup and we meet once a month
virtually.
And that was our connection.
And then we've decided to, um,bring together our interests.
So we both have differentinterests in positive psychology
and therapy, in resilience, andto put it together to bring
forward and bring to life, um,an online workshop to really

(03:03):
help people who feel lonely overthe Christmas period.

Shelley (03:08):
Thanks, Natalie.
Wayne, do you want to tell us alittle bit more about how, how
it went last year?
So last year was your, your, Iguess your first, first attempt
at this program.
Uh, how was it received andyeah, what kind of feedback did
you get that inspired you tosay, yes, we want to do this
again.
Like we know that we are addingvalue to people's lives over
this period that can beparticularly challenging for

(03:30):
some people.

Wayne (03:31):
Mm hmm.
Well, last year, what we did iswe did a lot of research on the
topic, and the more research wedid, the more we uncovered.
There's several studies that Idon't have the data in front of
me, but that show that, uh,quite a large percentage of
people have this difficulty overChristmas and, uh, and, you

(03:52):
know, we discovered things like,like people who, uh, who may be
Uh, surrounded by family, butfeel lonelier than they are when
they're on their own.
Or people who go to a Christmas,uh, activities or stay with
family and it turns into, uh, ahuge conflict or different

(04:13):
members of the family are, or,or people who, who don't have
anybody to, to spend Christmaswith and, and they feel very
alone.
Um, so those are just a few So,um, so we, we did a lot of
research on, on that and wetalked to a lot of people about

(04:35):
what we were doing.
And we had tremendous feedbackfrom people in positive
psychology.
And from therapists andcounselors, and so we didn't
have, uh, we, we started quitelate.
So we didn't have an audiencefor the one last year, but we
decided that because the,feedback was so powerful from

(04:57):
people around us and people who,who, uh, had run into people in
their daily lives who have thissame response.
We decided to offer it again andstart much earlier with the Mark
thing.

Shelley (05:11):
Beautiful.
And Natalie, I was reading a bitabout your, your history and
you've come in from a verydifferent direction.
Um, I, I have kind of come intothis in a similar way, working
with big brands and PR andcommunications.
So I would love to just know alittle bit about that journey of
kind of changing from careernumber one, uh, to really

(05:34):
delving into a different kind ofpurpose led career.

Nathalie (05:39):
Sure.
It's a good question, a bit, abit different from loneliness,
but it's a good question.
And maybe I can find a segueinto loneliness.
Um, as you mentioned, uh, my, myfirst career was or is in
marketing, in sales, in fastmoving consumer goods.
And I always loved thecreativity behind it.

(05:59):
I loved being able to bring myideas to life.
And I was not so muchinterested, I would say, with
psychology or resilience.
But then throughout my career, Idid see a lot of my colleagues
suffer and also the stresscreeping up and always having to
deliver more and being exhaustedalso by the end of the week.

(06:20):
So I always had those questionsin myself.
Why are some colleagues actuallygoing through a burnout and
others are more resilient.
And I was always interested intophysical health, into nutrition,
and also neurobiology.
And when COVID hit, we were allat home and didn't have much to

(06:43):
do, and the situation kind ofrepeated itself.
So I was Quite comfortable athome because for once it was, it
was me time that I had, um,whereas as opposed to people
taking my time in a company,always, you know, putting
meeting and having a lot ofemails to respond to, I was able
to have this extra time.

(07:03):
But my friends were not seeingthe situation the same way.
They were more like desperate,all the bars or the restaurants
are closed.
We're really bored.
And that led me to, okay, sosome people seem to be more
resilient than others.
And can you teach that?
And then I completely dived ininto positive psychology and I
opened my business aroundresilience.

(07:24):
And the aim was first to, to beable to teach.
resilience skills and evidencebased resilient skills to people
in workplace settings.
Um, when, you know, you don'thave control over everything
that is happening to you,whether your boss, the demands
and so on.
So that was, that was one of thefirst, um, I would say entry
point into positive psychology.

(07:46):
And then if you, if we make apoint or a segue into
loneliness, I think sometimes,and also from the research, you
can be surrounded by a lot ofpeople and also colleagues, but
not all connections.
Transcripts are positive.
They can actually suck up theenergy from you and leave you
more depleted.
So, you know, you can besurrounded with hundred of your

(08:08):
colleagues every day, but feelvery lonely because maybe you
don't share their values, or youdon't actually have a
connection, a positiveconnection and share the values,
share common values which uniteyou.
And that could be common to, um,workers, colleagues, but it
could also be, you might be in acircle of friends and realize
you've grown in a certain wayand maybe your values have

(08:30):
changed.
And you don't actually feelmaybe understood by those
friends and then relationshipscan actually become negative,
even though they were oncepositive.
So that's a long segue from youroriginal question, but yeah,
that's a little bit more aboutmy, myself.

Shelley (08:48):
No, that's beautiful.
And honestly, Natalie, I'mseeing, um, at this stage in my
life.
So many brands kind of feelinglike they're at a crossroads,
like they've had one career andactually that isn't serving them
anymore and they're feeling likethey want to change direction
and I myself have been on thisjourney for the last kind of

(09:11):
three and a half years.
It isn't easy and I think justthat example of Uh, figuring out
what you're interested in, theresilience and bringing that
into your workplace.
You don't need to jump shipimmediately.
It's like, how can you lean intoa new career direction that is
going to be more purpose led andthinking, you know, we've got

(09:32):
still got quite a few years leftto work.
So thinking about doingsomething that's going to be a
bit more nourishing.
Thank you.
And Wayne, you're a careers,careers advisor, is that
correct?
And how does, how does this workinto, does this, are you helping
kind of, um, people pivot theircareers going into a different

(09:54):
direction?
I'd love to know more.

Wayne (09:56):
Yeah, I help people like and just like you were
describing people who want totransition into another career
or maybe they didn't have achoice and they were asked to
leave or downsized or outplacedor whatever you want to call it.
And, and the thing is, is thatonce you determine the role,

(10:16):
which is really important incareer transition is to really
determine.
Who you want to be in your nextsteps and once that's
determined, then you have to gothrough a job search process and
most of the steps in job searchare all things that people have
never done before.

(10:38):
Um, you know, how often do youwrite a resume when you're in
the middle of your career?
You know and resumes havechanged since people were 20
years ago or even 10 years agoAnd then and then the only way
you can really find a newposition is through networking
And many people are veryfrightened of networking and uh,

(11:00):
and so people have these areaswhere I I say I I say that
they're stuck, but it's oftenprocrastination.
And, what I realized is that inmy previous careers, I helped
people to become resilientthrough difficult situations.

(11:21):
And I started to think, youknow, I can do the same thing
here, because, um, if peoplehave some practices that will
help them to be more resilient,it means that when they get
that, message saying they'rerejected, you know, I had one
person went for nine interviewsfor the same company and got
rejected, when you get thatnotice, uh, if you have some

(11:45):
practices you're doing that.
Help to build resilience.
You can, you can bounce back andyou can keep going.
And in order to land, uh,without taking even longer, uh,
you need to have thatresilience.
And the same thing withinterviews.
I mean, interviews for somepeople are just so, so, um,

(12:08):
frightening is not the rightword, but, And, so I started to
do more research on, on researchof psychological resilience and
for about the last two or threeyears.
And then, um, I put togethersome, uh, uh, some training
segments.
that I included in my sessionswith clients.

(12:31):
But last year, over Christmas, Idid some reflection and I
realized it wasn't working.
And so what I did is I built acourse, um, it's like a course
that teaches people thesepractices in resilience.
And now when people work withme, they take 10 sessions.
And so their first 10 weeks,they do 10 weeks of the, of the,

(12:52):
regular career discernment andjob search process.
And then they do 10 weeks oflearning different practices to
build resilience.
And it seems to be working.
My hope is, is that, is that ifthey keep doing those practices
during their job search, ithelps them, To get through the

(13:13):
process a little faster and tobe less stressed.
And the other part of it is theisolation and loneliness that
Natalie was talking about.
That when you're in a jobsearch, you feel incredibly
lonely.
And what I've noticed is in thisgroup, I hadn't really planned
it for this purpose, but peopleseem to like to come together to

(13:36):
To, uh, in that sense ofconnection, I think it's another
method of building resilienceand they look forward to it.

Shelley (13:44):
Mmm, and I love that you've both really delved deep
into the the topic of resiliencehere And I wonder if there's
just a few nuggets that youcould give away to us Here that
that you found have reallyhelped your own journey to

(14:04):
building your own personalresilience and maybe what really
speaks to clients that you workwith that people might be able
to take away and start actingupon right away.

Nathalie (14:15):
It's a great question.
Um, I think we could talk twohours on resilience.
Resilience is, is, is a skillfirst of all, so that's the good
news is that everyone can learnit.
But you need to practice it.
And it's multifaceted, meaningthat what works for me might not
work for you.
And there are differentcomponents in it.

(14:36):
Could be behavioral tools, couldbe cognitive tools.
To me, because you asked aboutme, um, and it's going to sound
very easy and simple, but I,it's the foundation.
And when I work with, um,clients on, on, in therapy, I
usually probe about sleepbecause sleep to me is a

(14:56):
behavioral tool.
If you don't sleep well, you'renot going to be resilient.
You're not going to be able toface all your emotions or to
face what is coming your way andstress and so on.
And it sounds.
Easy.
It sounds like, you know, ourparents used to tell us you
should just sleep more.
And it's not easy when you, whenyou go into the details, it's

(15:17):
not easy to sleep half an hourmore, or, you know, somebody who
wakes up very often during thenight.
It's not very easy because we'reinto habits and breaking habits
takes a lot of time and also alot of energy.
But usually, when I have clientswho sleep more, they're also
much more able to regulate theiremotions.
And that, that's a big, bigbuzzword at the moment, emotions

(15:41):
and so on.
And it's true that, you know,we're not taught at school, what
do we do with our emotions?
How do we deal when we haveanxiety?
What does it mean?
How does it feel like?
Is it normal, not normal?
And to be able to start doingthis work of, Labeling the
emotions we're feeling and thenhave a strategy.
What do we do with it?
Do we try to suppress it, whichwe're not supposed to do?

(16:03):
Because usually it comes backeven stronger.
Do we reappraise it?
Do we change the situation?
And so on.
We need to have some, what Iwould call mental energy.
And for that, we need to haverestful sleep, um, which is long
enough and which is, um, goingto give us the energy to deal
with everything coming our way.
So.
I would say sleep really helpedme a lot.

(16:27):
And then also, um, emotionlabeling and learning how to
deal with the different emotionscoming my way.

Shelley (16:35):
And allowing the emotions to come, because
sometimes we, if we're feelingdown, then we might want to have
a drink or something else to tryand suppress that feeling.
So it's like, no, like honoringthe feeling.
And letting it, letting it likechannel through us.

(16:56):
Yeah.
And what came through to me whenyou, when you mentioned about,
we're not taught these things atschool, like here in, uh, in
Canada.
And I don't know if this is thesame over the world, but my
children are now taught thesethings at school.
Amazing.
From a very, very early age.
And I mean, there's movies likeInside Out as well, which are

(17:16):
naming with characters linked toemotion.
So.
This feels like a hugedevelopment that our children
are going to be much moreconnected with what emotions
mean.
I think I definitely can stillteach my daughter resilience.
Um, yeah, she gets upset veryeasily and will take herself

(17:38):
away.
So, yeah.
Um, yeah, sleep, really goodtip.
Thank you.
Wayne, anything from you, um, onresilience that's really worked
for you or worked for yourclients?

Wayne (17:51):
Yeah, I, I think that, uh, it is, all the, all the
exercises or practices are, arevery simple.
Um, and so like, like Nathaliewas saying, it, it, it, they
seem so simple.
So how can they be?
beneficial, but they are.
And one of the ones that I findhelpful for myself is, is, uh,

(18:14):
gratitude.
And, and that's where you, uh,there's all kinds of different
ways you can do it.
But one of the things that Ilike to do is to, is to every
morning to list Three thingsthat I'm grateful for and why
I'm grateful.
And so I do a little mindfulnessexercise, and then I identify

(18:34):
those three things.
And then what I usually do afterthat is set, uh, I set three
intentions for the day.
Doesn't, may not even beconnected to the gratitudes, but
it, it's, it's.
It's positive thing ways I wantto be in my life during that day
and um, and I find clients findthat too, that once they start

(18:57):
listing gratitudes, that it justgives them a little bit of a, an
edge on, on being able to, um,uh, well it gives them a, I
guess it gives them a space.
that allows them to choose howthey want to react to different
situations.
And, um, and, uh, and then theother thing that I find is that

(19:20):
is, is very well known is, isjust, uh, doing mindfulness
exercises.
There's all kinds of differentones that you can do and
whatever ones you like.
I encourage clients to, to, todo something every day and maybe
even more than once a day ifthey want.
And, um, and once they it'slike, um, resilience is kind of

(19:43):
like a muscle and, and, and,and, you know, it's a lot like
doing exercise at the gym.
If, if you do it once, like if Iteach my clients a particular
practice and they do it once itand they don't do it again,
it'll do about as much good asgoing to the gym once.
And then expecting to bephysically fit, you know, you

(20:04):
have to go and you have to do itday after day and you have to
practice it or playing thepiano.
You know, if you, you take alesson in the piano, you're
certainly not going to be up onthe stage, you know, doing a
performance.
So it takes, it takes practice.
And, but, but, uh, I haven't hada chance.
client who has said that itisn't helpful, uh, and most

(20:28):
clients say that it's incrediblyhelpful if they do these
different practices, uh, and,and that it helps them to just
keep going and persist in theirjob search.

Shelley (20:41):
So much there.
Thank you so much, Wayne.
A few things that are coming upfor me, you said a couple of
times now.
About who you want to be.
And this is quite different to,to kind of how I think of it.
And I'm, I, I think we do loseourselves somewhat.

(21:01):
And particularly, um, When weare spending maybe three and a
half hours every day on socialmedia, we are, we're almost a
slave, a voyeur, we are, we arelosing peace of ourself.
So, in, in my world, I'm, theterminology I would typically
use is who, who are you?

(21:23):
Or who am I?
But I really felt this was aninteresting nuance, like who do
I want to be?
Yeah, like not necessarilysearching, but it's like
intentional.
Let's like lean into who I wantto be,

Wayne (21:36):
right?
For, for the work I do, that's,that's absolutely critical.
Um, because the, the, whenthey're, when they're trying to
determine their new direction.
If they can, if they candetermine what matters most to
them, and they can determinewhat, uh, they're, they're

(21:59):
naturally drawn to, and they candetermine what they're good at,
and find the intersection ofthose things.
It'll give them some choices ofwho they choose to be, and the
more they can Take that powerand choose the career that they
want to be and know why theywant to do it, the more

(22:21):
successful they'll be, and themore likely they will be to land
in a role that they find theyenjoy doing every day.

Nathalie (22:30):
And I also think that generally, we can be aligned so
we can be who we are is who wewant to be, and then things are
well, but it could also be thatwho we are is not the person.
we are aligned with in ourfuture self because we might
have evolved or our values mighthave changed.
So we might be in a current jobsituation, but actually it's not

(22:53):
fulfilling.
So that's when we ask ourselves,who do I want to be?
But if we're in a situation,cause I just want to put it out
there that we're comfortable,we're fulfilled and we're
flourishing, then who we are iswho we want to be.
And that's okay.
So there's no need to, there'sno need to always try to search
to be a different person ifwe're already fulfilled.

(23:13):
If that makes sense,

Shelley (23:15):
totally.
Yes.
Thank you.
So let's delve a little bitdeeper into what is coming up
with your Christmas program,your journey to joy.
So I guess who, who do youexpect would want to come to
this and, and maybe just give mea little bit of a glimpse into

(23:36):
what the, what the offer is andhow many touch points people
will get if they come on thisjourney to joy with you this
Christmas?
So many questions

Nathalie (23:49):
Um, okay.
Let me let me try and give alittle overview like who's gonna
come I think anyone let's behonest because Marketing we
should be targeting a specificperson and so on but let's be
let's face it.
We can all be lonely.
We can be 18 year olds be goingAt first year at university
still haven't made some strongconnections of friends from

(24:11):
school might have moved on andwe can still feel lonely and we
can be 80 year old and ourfriends have gone.
Maybe we don't have so manyfamily members.
We might not be so much mobileto go to events.
And maybe an online gathering iswhat we need.
So, generally speaking, whoeverfeels the need for it is invited
to come to our workshop.

(24:32):
And, I, I don't, you can besick, you can be not sick, you
might want to learn new skillsas well, you might want to
change your current, um,connections and relationships,
and want to see, um, how, how isthat possible, and learn new
skills.
So that's about, you know, whois this for?
And I don't know, Wayne, youwant to explain a little bit

(24:53):
more, um, the actual workshop,what we are going to do over
the, um, 10 days or more thatwe're going to meet?

Wayne (24:59):
Yeah, we, well, we'll be, we'll be meeting with people
several times over the holidayseason.
And we specifically chose to dothat because, um, there are
other programs around where,where people can learn these
skills, but, but it's not duringthe holiday season and And it's
a mixture of both practice andlearning, so it's gonna be, uh,

(25:24):
both.
Yeah, learning and experiential.
And, uh, and so each sessionwe'll be talking about a
different, uh, approach or adifferent practice, um, uh,
that, that people can use and,and we'll have a chance to be,
uh, for people to connect.
Uh, one of the things about theway we want to lead it is we

(25:46):
want to be strong in content andlight and spirit.
And so that people will, uh,enjoy, enjoy, uh, meeting with
each other.
And so even just the sense ofconnection they get from being
with each other will be huge inbuilding a sense of resilience
in addition to the practicesthat they learn while they're

(26:07):
there.
And it, I think it will alsogive people a sense of You know,
they can look forward from onesession to the other session to
coming together and meeting andthat will help them as well.
But then they'll also leave withsome skills that they can take,
not just for Christmas, butThrough other aspects of their
lives that will be reallyvaluable.

Shelley (26:26):
I'm a Girl Guide leader.
And one of the leaders said, um,yesterday, Oh yeah, it's coming
up to the really busy time ofyear.
Like there's so much going on.
And, um, like I've got two youngchildren.
So I agree.
There's going to be lots ofthings that just happen to be
happening without me activelyseeking what's going on.
But for a lot of people, That'snot.

(26:46):
The reality, and they'll seelots of busy people and see lots
and then events maybe go likeclubs might close down for a few
weeks over the Christmasholiday.
So I think this is just such abeautiful offering to say, this
is literally over the Christmasperiod when you might not have a
lot going on, and something thatyou can start to get to know

(27:08):
people and I don't know how manyevents there are but yeah over
you know, Over even just one ortwo events, you can start to
build those connections andexpect to see each other.
And maybe if somebody doesn'tturn up to one of the sessions,
the following one, you mightinquire as to why they weren't
there.
And then they can feel missed.

(27:29):
Like people were actually.
like wondering about them andwhat a beautiful thing that is.

Nathalie (27:36):
We'll have four sessions.
So we'll have four live sessionsaround one hour, 60 minutes
each, where we will actually bedoing this mixture of
experiential exercise and alsocreating a safe space for people
to meet and exchange and talkabout what's going on.
And To go into a bit of detailsof the exercise, we'll have some

(27:56):
classical positive psychologyexercises, you know, knowing
your strength and so on.
But what's important to say isconnection is also a two way
street, but it starts withourselves.
So we also have to know whatbrings me joy.
What are my values?
You know, what am I looking for?
Because we can be in a group ofpeople that are, like we said at
the beginning, they're notactually bringing us something.

(28:18):
So We also have to do the workthat inner work to decide, you
know, not who's the person Iwant to be.
That's another question.
But like, what brings me joytomorrow?
What's going to bring me joytomorrow?
And sometimes, like youmentioned, we're so much on
social media and every day, youknow, like circle and everything
is spinning around us, we don'ttake time to sit down and just

(28:42):
reflect five minutes.
How did the day go?
And what was good in the day?
What was not so good?
And actually those littlemoments of self reflection is
what is going to help us tobuild those connections and
those meaningful connections.
So the exercise are going to bea mixture of, um, psychology and

(29:02):
positive psychology exercise toget to know what brings us joy,
but also to help and facilitateconnections with one another and
to have a safe, safe space to beable to exchange.

Shelley (29:17):
It sounds like a beautiful thing.
I'm so happy to have this on myradar and just the more I hear
about initiatives that peopleare feeling cool to launch, um,
when they're seeing a need insociety for it.
I just wanna just congratulateyou guys for, for moving
forward.
You know, a lot of people have alot of ideas and they don't

(29:37):
always execute on them.
I'm hands up by one of thosepeople.
I do a lot of things, butthere's also a lot that I don't
do that I write down and itsound.
Brilliant, but don't come tofruition.
So well done for, for doing thisand for putting, you know,
yourself out there during thistime, um, when a lot of people
do take a bit of time off workand you're going to be working
through it.
So well done.

Nathalie (29:59):
It's a joy.
It's a joy.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

Shelley (30:02):
Me too.
Great.
And is there anything that we,that we haven't touched on today
that you think I'd really loveto be able to share this while I
have this platform and space?
Um, whether it's about your, youknow, you personally, your
project together, or justsomething else that's coming to
you that you feel called toshare.

Nathalie (30:22):
I want to share or build on something that we did
not talk about is that I don'twant to throw out the idea that
somebody needs to have 50 peoplearound them to be happy and to
feel connected.
And there's also a differencebetween solitude and loneliness.
So solitude is a chosen, chosenway to be alone, and it's

(30:45):
actually needed.
It's like when we're practicingmindfulness, We have to be alone
or when we're going into flow.
We choose to be alone.
It's something chosen And it'snot because we spend a friday
night at home alone that there'ssomething wrong with us So I we
talk a lot about loneliness.
It's not so good for health.
It's not good for physicalhealth mental health and so on

(31:06):
But loneliness is when weactually feel that we're not
connected with one person So wecan just have one person in the
world and that's sufficient andwe don't need to have You 20
people around us.
And I think it's important toknow the distinction because
it's not, it doesn't mean thatit's not normal.
So that was, that was importantfor me to put it out there as
well for your audience.

Shelley (31:28):
Thanks, Natalie.
And I think from you, Wayne.

Wayne (31:32):
I think, Natalie said, very well.
I guess what I, I hear more thananything is, uh, amongst people
that I know is, um, is that I'm.
With a group of people and Ifeel very alone and, and, uh,
being on your own.
It's just what Natalie wassaying.
Being on your own doesn't meanthat you are feeling alone.

(31:56):
I think, I'm hoping that whenpeople leave this session,
they'll, they'll start torealize that they can be
comfortable, um, on their own.

Shelley (32:10):
And, and just as a build to that, I think that
piece about getting to knowyourself can mean that when you
are in company, you are Moreable to be that version of you
that you feel that you areinside.
And sometimes you might leave aninteraction with an individual
or a group of people feelingunsatisfied because you weren't

(32:35):
yourself.
And that's not necessarily onthem.
It's kind of, we do need to dothat inner work to figure out
who we are and who we want tobe.
And the kind of conversationsthat we want to be leading or.
contributing to that does kindof speak to our own curiosity
and maybe just that wordcuriosity, like, uh, I'm just

(33:00):
about to tomorrow start a twoweek social media disconnection,
um, which I've toyed with, uh,often I haven't done two weeks
before.
And for me, this is going to bea big time saver.
I've got a keyboard here that Iplay a little bit that I'm
hoping to delve into a bitdeeper.

(33:20):
I've got sewing that needs to bedone and just spending a bit of
time reconnecting with myselfand also sending more personal
emails, personal messages topeople that I have in my.
Like wider spheres of my lifethat I don't tend to connect
with on a one to one basis.

(33:41):
Maybe it's just more of amessage, um, or a comment on, on
a social media platform.
So yeah, so this is my, this ismy kind of going deep,
disconnecting to reconnect, um,watch this space.
Have either of you ever tried adisconnect or do you, are you
active on social media?

Wayne (33:59):
I, I, I, I had digital detox Saturdays.
And I put my phone and I put mylaptop in a drawer and I close
it.
It doesn't come out until thenext morning.
And it is the best change I evermade in my life.
I feel so refreshed on Monday,or on Sunday.
And, um, and it just gives me achance to do just what you're

(34:22):
saying.
You know, just to, just to havetime, uh, solitude.
Some time to myself and to, andto reflect on what I want and
where I'm going.
Amen.
Those kinds of things.
Go for a walk, enjoy nature, andI don't have to carry the phone
and feel like I'm a prisoner tomy phone.

(34:43):
I know it's a dream, but

Shelley (34:46):
Do you feel like the day lasts longer?

Wayne (34:50):
No, you know what?
Strangely enough, I sometimesfeel like it goes by very fast.
I don't know why.
I think it's because I'm doingthings that I really love doing
and I become immersed in themand time just is gone.
You know, I think, oh my gosh,where did Saturday go?

Shelley (35:11):
Amazing.
Oh, good for you, Wayne.
And how long have you been doingthat ritual?

Wayne (35:15):
I guess, um, I started it in the middle of COVID and, uh,
yeah.
So a

Shelley (35:22):
good few years.
Yeah.
It's

Wayne (35:24):
just a great feeling.
When I first started it, Ihonestly felt like I was giving
up a limb.

Shelley (35:30):
Yes.

Wayne (35:32):
Because, you know, the phone, you keep looking at it.
Did I get any messages today?
And so the first few times itwas really hard.
I, I, I said, well, I'll take itwith me and I won't look at it.
Didn't work, had to, had to putit in a drawer and close the
drawer and uh, but now I can'twait.
I can't wait.
I love working with my clients.

(35:53):
I love doing the work I do, butI can't wait for Saturday to put
those devices away and close thedrawer.

Shelley (36:02):
Love it.
How about you Natalie?
Have you toyed with digitaldetoxes yourself?

Nathalie (36:08):
No, I have a different relationship.
I'm really good.
Um, and I really enjoy, um,Social media, I think I would
call it social media.
I make a distinction between myphone, emails, and social media.
I learn a lot personally onsocial media and I think I also
choose what I want to see.
I feel in control, let's put itthis way, and I, it's, it's

(36:31):
bringing me joy, but then I alsohave to say one of my strengths
is self regulation.
So it's, it's quite easy for meto stop and not stop.
And then there's, there's ahabit I have.
My phone is always on mute, soyou can never reach me, but I
choose when I want to bereached.
So I will put it on, on mute foran hour or two during the day.

(36:53):
And that's when I'll get to mycalls.
And so I think.
Yeah, I, I don't need to havethe detox.
It's more about Netflix in mycase.
I have to maybe stop watchingNetflix, but no social media.
I think I'm quite good with it.
And I really enjoy when I'mlearning because I'm learning
through it.
I see different pieces ofresearch.
I see, I can listen to podcasts.

(37:14):
I learn new things.
It actually gets me into flow alittle bit because then I'm
searching some topics, learningnew things for my clients.
So no, I, maybe I, but I don't,I don't actually answer even
private calls on weekends.
So, but that's kind of my detox.
I know it's very,

Shelley (37:32):
very nice.
You've got some really healthyboundaries.
And that's, that's where I thinka lot of these digital detoxes
try to get to.
So it's like, you're almost onthe other side of what this
process is designed to help usget to.

Wayne (37:47):
I'm heading in that direction.

Nathalie (37:52):
But it goes to a point that I get text messages from my
parents, like, We haven't heardfrom you in four days.
And I'm like, Oh yeah, it'sbecause, you know, at the end of
the day, I see the 10 missedcalls and I'm like, no, I'm not
going to answer any of those.
And then I forget about it.
And then the days goes and then,you know, I just forget about
it.
I'm like, if it's important,people will ring back and it's
just, you know, yeah, it's mything.

(38:14):
I don't know if it's really goodbecause you know, if friends
needs you, then you're notavailable.
But if you text me SOS, Iusually call back within a few
hours.
So I think my friends.

Shelley (38:24):
Okay, so that piece, I guess, maybe family members of
the don't know that already knowthey will after they see this
and something that I'm toyingwith, um, is there's a fantastic
platform called spatial chat.
And it's just, it's different tozoom because it's just got a
different backdrop you're muchsmaller, kind of on the screen
I've hosted small kind offriendship.

(38:47):
Group events there for a while.
What I'm testing at the momentis connection hours.
So just putting a couple ofhours in my diary, um, each week
and letting people know thatthat's where I'll be.
Almost like thinking in the realworld, oh, there's a local cafe
that I'm going to be at on aMonday and Wednesday morning.

(39:09):
And if you want to see me likedrop in and like, that's where
you can connect with me.
The, I guess the only thing thatmight be putting some people off
is the idea that there might beother people in the space, which
that's real life, you know, it'skind of like the old days when
you used to drop in on yourfriend and just knock on the
front door and maybe there wassomebody else there and they'd

(39:30):
be like, Oh, hey.
So I'm, I'm testing this in myown life at the moment to see
how it feels.
And I wonder if that might be aneat test for you, Natalie, if
you've got people, they want toconnect in with you.
And it's like just saying likeallocating an hour here or
there.
So you can have that.
I like that.

Nathalie (39:48):
Yeah.
I like that very much.
It's like when we used to haveoffices, like back in the days
when there were no open space,if we were, you know, a leader.
We could close the door and thatmeant we're not available.
And then we could open the doorand then anyone who had a
question could come in.
So that's kind of similar theway you're explaining.
So that's intriguing.
I'll check it out.

Shelley (40:06):
Yeah.
And actually you can havemultiple rooms.
You could have a room for one toone.
So if somebody came and you'relike, actually, this is a
sensitive conversation.
Let's go to another room, whichI haven't invited other people
to come to.
So, yeah.
Interesting, right?
Yeah.
We have to try it

Nathalie (40:23):
out.

Shelley (40:26):
Well, Wayne and Natalie, it's been a delight,
uh, thank you for your patiencewith my three way interview
style, as this is brand new tome.
Um, it's been really wonderfulto get to know a bit, a bit
about you and a bit about thisbeautiful, uh, initiative that
you've got going on.
I look forward to following itand sharing this with the people

(40:47):
that I know and love, um, to seeif, you know, somebody within
our wider connections might wantto join you on this journey at
Christmas.

Wayne (40:55):
Thanks very much.
Pleasure to be here.

Nathalie (40:58):
Yeah, it was lovely and it's very lively to do an
interview three way.
And we're very grateful thatwe're able to talk about our
workshop journey to joy and tobe able also to share with your
followers.
So thank you so much for theinvitation, Shelly.