March 3, 2025 • 46 mins
Discover the importance of forging meaningful connections and the healing power of friendships, especially after periods of isolation. In today's episode, I chatted with author of The Connection Recession, Rich Woo.
We discuss the following key points:
• Emphasizing connection as essential for mental well-being
• Personal anecdotes highlighting the necessity of nurturing relationships
• Strategies to combat loneliness, especially for new parents
• The value of intentional community engagement in maintaining friendships
• Addressing barriers like fear of rejection and time management
• The need for proactive communication in sustaining bonds
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The relationship recession, the path to building
meaningful connections in adisconnected world, and I think
this is such a relevant topic,especially now as we are in the
aftermath of a pandemic where wewere so isolated Some of us
have felt that that's, you know.
We can continue that.
Why not Like it's simpler,especially for those of us who
(00:21):
are introverts.
But I think that the aspect ofconnection, especially knowing
the research if you look up DrBruce Perry's research or read
his books, the research onconnection reminds us that
there's a healing aspect to it,there is a nurturing of our
mental health and well-beingaspect to it, and so if we've
been through adversity, trauma,or if we're going through stress
(00:41):
right now, connection,friendships, relationships that
we build are an important andintegral part of our wellbeing
as parents, and so I hope youenjoy my conversation with Rich
Wu as much as I did.
I will see you on the otherside and don't forget to take a
moment to click out of thisepisode and leave a rating and
review.
(01:01):
You can do this on ApplePodcasts or on Spotify.
Send me an email at info atcuriousneuroncom and I will send
you Meltdown Mountain, which isour most popular PDF on our
website, and I'll send it to youfor free as a thank you.
You can follow us on Instagramat curious underscore neuron and
grab a freebie below in theshow notes.
And if you are interested inlearning how to regulate your
(01:24):
emotions, build that selfawareness and build stronger
relationships both with yourchild and the adults around you,
grab a chat with me in mycalendar.
I'm no longer just for a littlebit, but no longer allowing
people to directly come into theReflective Parent Club.
I want to take a moment to chatwith you first and get to know
you, and when I get to know thepeople first, I build content
(01:44):
for you specifically inside theReflective Parent Club so that
it feels like you are part ofthis.
I want to make sure that we allfeel connected inside the
Reflective Parent Club and thatyou remember that you matter too
.
All right, enjoy myconversation.
I'll see you on the other side.
Welcome back everyone to theCurious Neuron podcast and I am
(02:04):
here as promised with Rich.
Welcome, rich.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Thanks for having me.
Cindy, Really excited to spendsome time with you.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I'm so excited to see you again.
I've been on your podcast and Iremember such a lovely
conversation and I was excitedto bring you back.
And first, congratulations onyour book.
I read it and really enjoyed it, and I think that we need to
all read this book to have theconversation that needs to be
had, which is around friendships.
You know, I'm always curious toknow where's the idea of like
hmm, I need to write this book.
(02:32):
So what was that like for you?
Yeah, how was that seed plantedin your mind?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
No, I appreciate that .
I think it's a couple differentplaces.
One I've had people say hey,you know why don't you write a
book?
But it's much easier to asksomeone to write a book than
actually write a book yourself.
So you know, there's alwaysbeen some different thoughts and
stirring in my mind too, and Ishared this with you before when
I was, when I was in highschool.
Unfortunately, my, my motherpassed away in an accident.
(02:57):
It was a freak whitewaterrafting accident we ended up
losing her in, and I think thatat a very young age I was 15.
My younger brother was sevenwas very formative, in the way
that I think, aboutrelationships.
I learned at a young age thatlife is not promised.
The next day is not promised.
You might think, oh right, nowI'm 43 years old.
(03:17):
Well, the average person livestill 80.
You're not guaranteed tomorrow.
My mom passed away when she wasin her early 40s and so it made
me realize at a young age thatlife is fragile, that we're not
guaranteed the time, and thetime that we do have, you have
to make the most of it.
So I think I've always kind ofcarried that intentionality and
so when I was thinking aboutwriting the book I was like, oh,
(03:38):
what do I know about?
Well, I know about people and Iknow about business.
So at first I thought I wasgoing to write a networking book
, just a business networking.
And I was like it's not reallyinspiring.
And I just cause I know aboutit doesn't mean I want to write
about it.
And so I was like what's reallyinspiring?
And to me, the idea ofinvesting in relationships,
making them count, not just likeliving life in relationship by
(03:59):
default but by design, thosekinds of like themes seem very
important to me.
And so hence you know the book,the relationship procession.
I actually have a copy right onmy desk.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I have it on my Kindle.
It was so good.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Thank you for sharing our story with you and I'm so
sorry that you had to experiencethat in such a you know, such a
young age as well.
I appreciate that you broughtthat part of the book because it
made me understand the whybehind everything that you do
and everything that you shared.
Right, because I have a friendwho had a similar experience
losing a family member at ayoung age, and what's
interesting is that whathappened to her was it was you
(04:35):
only live one sort of thing,like you need to make sure you
live and experience life,whereas your kind of response to
that was you spoke about likefamily, like bringing your
family, your, your your fatherand your, your brother together
for family dinners.
Right, like it's justinteresting to see how you know
something like that happening toyou at a young age leads to
different people takingdifferent paths.
Right, and your path wasconnection.
(04:57):
So I just I really reallyappreciate that.
And how did you?
After you know you?
You were very intentional aboutcreating these family dinners.
What did that look like?
As you were, you know, in your20s and 30s and you know now
you're working and you have,like, more people around you,
how did you continue thatconnection into your adult life.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, you know, thank you for asking.
There's a couple of thingsthere.
One part of where I got theidea from, like the family
dinners, was, yes, theimportance of attention or
relationships.
But I saw a blog post by do youknow the guy named Tim Urban.
He's done like a big TED Talk.
He has a blog called Wait butwhy?
And there's an article that,like millions of people have
(05:38):
read.
It's called the Tail End andessentially with like pictures,
he's just drawing like how much,so that you can kind of
visualize how much time you haveleft with someone.
So he says something like okay,your parents are 60.
You see them once a year.
Average person lives to like 80.
So and then he kind of drawshis stick figures you got 20
times left.
You eat pizza twice a year.
(05:59):
You know you might eat pizzamaybe for the next 40 years.
You love pizza but you knowshouldn't probably eat a lot of
pizza when you're like 80 yearsold.
You got 40 years left.
You only got 80 pizzas thatyou're going to live left,
really enjoy it.
And so that one post actuallyinspired me at a young age to
say wait, how much time do Ihave Like my mom's not here?
How much time do I have leftwith my dad or even my brother?
(06:21):
I don't know.
But what I do know is thatwe're all busy.
If I just leave it to chanceand just don't schedule
something that you know we mightmeet up once a month, once
every couple months, a coupletimes a year.
But if I say, hey, let's gettogether Sunday afternoon, we're
not no one's really busy, thenOnce a week we don't have to
hang out every day.
Well, that turned into maybe 45times.
(06:45):
You know, you miss a couple ofweeks here and there.
In a year, over 10 years, 450dinners.
To me, I feel like that's amuch better outcome than I don't
know we get together a coupletimes a year, over 10.
I don't know, we met up 20, 30times over a 10-year period.
I just think if you don't havesomething by design,
intentionality and something inyour calendar, it's not going to
(07:08):
happen as much as we think.
So.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Right, and sometimes we're lucky enough to have those
you know nagging parents, as wemight think right, or like,
come over for dinner, I haven'tseen you, I miss you, why don't
you call me Right?
And I think sometimes we takethat for granted in terms of
like, okay, I don't have time,I'm busy, I'm busy, and we use
that as an excuse.
And it's one thing talkingabout family, and we do try to
see them when we can, butfriends is a completely other
(07:34):
thing.
It's so easy to say no to afriend because everything else
is first right Our family, ourpartners, our extended family
you know, extended family,whatever it is and then
ourselves and our friends.
That goes down the list.
But you've been in very, you'vebeen very intentional about
that as well, right?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's interesting becauseI know now folks like, uh, you
know my, my parents' age, folksin their seventies and eighties,
and you look around and somepeople have vibrant
relationships some that you knowmaybe formed those
relationships more recently, butmany because they kept up those
relationships over time.
And then you see folks that youknow our parents aged in their
seventies and eighties and theydon't have anyone around them
(08:12):
and they never bothered to stayin touch with people or just
hone those skills of likedeveloping friendships over time
.
And so maybe your spouse passesaway, maybe your kids are far
away, maybe your spouse passesaway, maybe your kids are far
away, you don't have a communityanymore.
And so I think we sometimes, inefforts to stay in touch with
our family which are importantour spouse, our kids, you know,
(08:38):
near family members we forgetabout a very important part of
life which is the rest of thecommunity, our friends.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, no, I agree.
So this past summer I took timeto speak to 100 parents.
I wanted to make sure that Ican have a really good
understanding of, like whatparents were experiencing.
And besides parents saying that, they really struggle with
emotions, which is what I helpedthem with, the second part that
they mentioned, you know, over90% of the time was loneliness,
(09:02):
and this is why I think yourbook is so relevant.
So you know, especially whenit's it was new moms, let's say,
coming into parenthood for thefirst time, first child
maternity leave, not going towork, feeling disconnected from
colleagues and friends and nothaving the time to do things
because they have a very smallchild at home, they seem to
really struggle with thatloneliness aspect.
(09:22):
To say it's just moms, but theywere the ones that were really
mentioning that.
What sort of advice would yougive to that parent who's like
how can I even go out?
I can barely take a showerright like there's.
No, it's impossible for me tomake connections.
And and some of these parentsand these moms were also in
isolated areas, away from familyor away from cities where they
(09:44):
had made friends before andbecause of work or their
partner's work.
So there's a really bigisolation piece which, we know
through research, impacts ourwellbeing, and so what can we do
if we're a new parent and feelso lonely or isolated?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Wow, that is such.
It's so funny because I wantedto talk about that.
Loneliness is a silent killer.
They say that lonelinesssomeone who's actually, you know
, feeling experiencingloneliness that's the equivalent
to smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
And yet, you know, we thinkabout our health, we think about
, you know, our finances.
No one thinks about theirrelationships and how important
(10:19):
that is to overall well-being.
One of the studies that I citeand was the basis for my book
was a 1938 Harvard grant studythat followed 700 people over 85
years and the biggest findingthat they found was people with
deep and meaningful connectionsin their lives had higher levels
of satisfaction, happiness andlongevity in their lives.
(10:41):
And yet you contrast that withwhat's going on today in America
.
50% of Americans are saying,hey, I don't feel satisfied with
my relationships.
57% of Americans say, hey, Ifeel I feel lonely some or most
of the time.
And this is the biggest one.
And think, among men you weretalking about women feeling
lonely 20, 20% of men, more than20% of men report not even
(11:03):
having one person that they canconfide in.
I personally I don't know thenumbers and I can't recreate the
study I think the number ismore like double, because when I
talk to just men.
People have fantasy footballleagues that they're in.
They have basketball leaguesthat they're a part of poker
games that they go to.
They don't have real friendsthat they can talk to.
(11:24):
Hey, my marriage is fallingapart, my kids are driving me
crazy and I don't know what todo because I'm yelling all the
time.
Things aren't going well atwork and I'm really stressed out
Most men.
It's really sad when you talkto them and I say, well, who can
you talk to about that?
They don't have a single person.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So that's something interesting, because whenever I
go out with friends not veryoften, but we try our best every
two months to get together.
And it's not a group of friends,it's different friends that I
meet and I met them in differenttimes in my life and so we
stayed connected.
And what's interesting is mostof our partners don't go out,
they don't take the time to meetwith a friend, they don't have
(12:04):
coffee with a friend, there'snobody that they text, and so
their best friend, their partner, is their wife and therapist
and all of that right, becausewe therapy ourselves and when we
meet each other, like, oh, Ihad the worst week and you know,
we talk together and we try togain a new perspective.
So what do you hear?
Like just kind of to go intothis a little bit deeper, right,
(12:25):
like what's the barrier?
On?
On the other side, women seemto be very intentional in terms
of, like, meeting up with peopleand friends and and making sure
we kind of maintain thoserelationships, but we still feel
lonely when we become newparents because we don't have
that connection.
How do we, or how could we,support men a little bit more to
remind them of the importanceof that connection with someone?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, that's a really good.
I'll offer a couple thoughtsand then maybe a strategy.
Well, especially for men, Ithink there's a lot of invisible
forces at work.
I think one just in society.
Right, it's not masculine totalk about your emotions or say,
hey, you know, can we likecatch up over coffee to just
talk about what's going on inlife, right, like, so you have
(13:06):
this like masculinity thing thatyou have to overcome.
Then I think there's just like auniversal fear, fear of
rejection.
I reach out, you know, you know.
Uh, john reaches out to me andI say, hey, man, I'm busy.
He reaches out again.
Hey, I'd love to, but I can't.
Now you don't want to ask thethird time, because it's like
who wants to feel like they'regetting rejected?
And this is not even likeyou're not trying to go on a
(13:28):
date, you're just trying to goout with a guy friend to catch
up, and now you're going toreject me three times.
I don't want to do that again,right, so there's a fear of
rejection.
(13:48):
I think there's an invisiblegetting rejected fear that the
person's going to think that I'mweak.
Because I want to talk, justcatch up and talk.
I could just watch some Netflix.
Maybe I'll just order somethingoff an app.
I have a Spotify playlist thatI could listen.
There's just so many otherthings I can do.
Who cares?
I don't want to do that.
And then you got the old.
You know, hey, yeah, I only seemy best friend once a year on
their birthday syndrome, right.
And so what's?
(14:09):
What are practical strategies?
That's actually I talk a lotabout that in my book, but I
think one thing that I'm reallyreally more and more everyday
convicted about is outside ofyour spouse or your next door
neighbor, who you're just goingto inadvertently bump into every
day on the way to work.
Yeah, I personally have abelief that it's going to be
(14:30):
nearly impossible to develop ameaningful relationship with
anyone else outside of that Ifit is not for a recurring
environment.
What do I mean by that?
Weekly basketball game you canplug into a book club, a dinner
club, something that you enjoy.
That happens without you havingto plan it.
Why?
Because it's easy for everyoneto opt in, so no one's having to
(14:54):
.
Hey, should we do this?
Should we not?
Can you meet at four, three?
No, wednesday doesn't work forme.
My kids forget it.
You get rid of all of that.
It's something that you enjoy,so you want to keep going to.
So either one of two things hasto happen.
You either have to take yourgroup of friends that you like
and find something that'sreoccurring that you don't have
to plan and jump into ittogether.
We all like food.
(15:16):
Let's go out to dinner once amonth, right?
Or, if there's just not thatconvergence among friends, find
something that you like and thenmeet some new friends.
But if it's not for that, Ijust I have this from personal
experience and I'm veryproactive in my friendships.
Even with that, it's hard toget in touch with even my
closest friends.
So that's my main convictionrecurring environment.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Well, I think that that was like the for me, like
the simplest thing that we canstart applying.
That I learned from your book,which was like start with
something that interests you,right?
So you mentioned before a bookclub or exercise or working out
or whatever it is, you knowwhether it's at work and like
connecting with somebody whosays, like I also work out of
the gym, oh, which gym do you goto?
Right?
Like you sort of painted thatpicture of a conversation that
you can have and I really feltlike your book was like this
(16:00):
sort of like recipe book, oflike making friendships as an
adult, which I loved because weforget, and you know what's
funny is, as I was reading yourbook, I was like, wow, we put so
much focus on making sure ourkids make friends right With
young kids were like go see that, go go to the park, go go see
that child, say hi, tell themyour name and make friends.
But then, as adults and I'mspeaking for myself too like now
(16:23):
I'm not in the, I work fromhome, so, and I have my own
company, so I'm not leaving myhouse it's really, really hard
to meet new people, but I do itthrough my online community and
my work, and so thank goodnessfor that, because I need the
connection with new people.
But at work, when I was there, Iwouldn't intentionally try to
meet up with them.
It was too much work.
It was, you know, like afterwork I'm going to go home and,
(16:44):
like you said, I'm going tounwind and I'm an introvert, and
so there's so much work thatgoes into like having this small
talk with the person right,like this is a podcast.
It's very different, but peoplethat have been following my
podcast for a while know that Idon't dig into the like.
So how have you been kind ofit's hard for me to do that.
I'm like, ok, let's get intoyour work.
You know, like that's what I dobest.
So there's so many factors thatI think contribute to making it
(17:07):
really hard for us to pushourselves past that difficulty.
Yet we're doing it, we'retelling our kids to do it, so
you've really helped us.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Intentionality is the key here.
It's so interesting because Ifeel, like you know, in just
everyday life, we're intentionalabout our health, we're
intentional about our work.
We're intentional about ourhealth, we're intentional about
our work, we're intentionalabout our kids, we're
intentional about what we eatand even exercising.
All that is in front of us,like all the social media and
(18:07):
things are built around that,but we're forgetting like the
most important thing arerelationships.
So great, I'm like in greatshape and great Like I, I um get
to sleep early.
You know, matthew Walker, stuffright, and I've got a good
sleep schedule.
Great, my kids are doing wellin school, but I don't have this
relational community that willhelp me grow and build wisdom
(18:29):
and challenge my perspectivesand help me with child rearing
and give me a place where I canbe heard and understood when I'm
going through a tough time.
All these things are extremelyimportant to human development
and living and yet, for somereason, we just all neglect that
.
It's just, you know, I guessthat's not important or I'll
just settle for the default,which is I hope I just bump into
(18:51):
people and develop arelationship.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Right, or not even putting the work into that, or
not even thinking that, justthinking that the loneliness or
not the loneliness, but notthinking that you don't need
somebody.
Right, Like I've had thisdiscussion with my partner, with
my husband, where he's like I'mhappy alone.
Right, We've had this, and he'slike I don't need the problems
of other people, I don't needextra stuff in my.
(19:13):
I have three kids and a wife,so apparently I'm enough.
Now there's just too much goingon.
You know Like he's and a wife,so apparently I'm enough.
Now there's just too much goingon.
He's like that's enough.
And so we have to kind of remindourselves that we don't want
friendships to become a chore orsomething that's like oh, I'm
meeting somebody.
And I think when you focus onyour interests, it makes it much
easier to meet with somebodyand say like, oh, let's talk
(19:33):
about the book you read.
Or it doesn't have to be a sitdown dinner or coffee, right,
Like you talk about.
Like going to the gym withsomebody or playing, you know,
pickle ball or whatever it is,racquetball, who cares?
Just something where you can be, you can spend the time with
that person and just let offsome of that stress that we have
.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think I think there's.
You hit it on the head becauseI think sometimes we think about
like relationships is like Idon't need another person that
I'm just going to sit down andstare at for an hour and just
like about what?
But you're killing likemultiple birds with one stone,
right, like if I I guess kind ofcrude expression but yeah, but
if I'm like going out to to toplay pickleball I enjoy
(20:11):
pickleball, it's exercise.
I get to hang out with a friendwhich is usually a good thing
and laugh and be understood andbuild a relationship.
Maybe I become a better parentbecause I learned a tip.
There's multiple things going onin that interaction that go
beyond I don't need just anotherfriend.
It's much deeper than that andI think sometimes we fail to
appreciate that.
(20:32):
But it's definitely worth itright in the end when we invest
in those relationships.
And to your point, I don'tthink you don't need to join 15
different sports leagues andhave five dinner clubs in a
movie club.
You can do this with a coupleof people, right, and it doesn't
have to be every week, it couldbe once a month.
But I think the point isthere's a lot of value in
disguise, that we're missing,and what we don't want to do is
(20:55):
wake up 20 or 30 years later andsay, do is wake up 20 or 30
years later and say, oh my gosh,all these people have these
incredible relationships.
They've evolved as human beings.
They learn so much along theway, they laugh so much along
the way, they cried with otherpeople along the way.
I didn't have any of that.
You don't want to be thatperson.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
I'm telling you, right, I know I had a similar
experience to yours as well interms of a vacation with a
friend.
I'm 41 and I took the firstvacation with a friend, like
this year, as a 41 year old, andit was amazing and it's we kind
of opened up to each other andit was the same thing in terms
of like, wow, we've known eachother since we were 13, 14.
And it took a trip in ourforties to like really get to
(21:31):
know each other, like werealized like we hadn't really
connected before, that, right,and so I really think it's
important to kind of come out ofyour comfort zone sometimes too
, and just like, dude, I neverwould have thought I would have
taken a trip with a friend, liketo me it was just like it's
family trips and somebodydoesn't have to take a trip with
a friend.
But just put yourself a littlebit out of that comfort zone
which you talk about.
You allude to that too, youknow, in terms of we've at work
(21:58):
and somebody says they playpickleball, why not say like,
hey, do you want to want to meetup?
You know, like, but it feels sovulnerable and that's hard for
us too, right.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
I think one of the things thatI think about with regards to
the relationships.
I often get this you know kindof statement I'm just too busy,
I've got work, I've got a coupleof kids at home, that enough is
like way too much, I don't.
How could I possibly meet upwith anyone?
I think what they're saying islike if I want to do a good job
at my, at my work which isimportant and I want to be a
(22:29):
good family person, there can'tpossibly be any time for
anything else.
And I I would disagree, I wouldsay and I encourage my wife all
the time, because in thebeginning she was like this.
She's like no, I've got stuff todo at home, I cannot be outside
, I cannot meet up with anyfriends.
And I would say, okay, first ofall, going out once a week for
a coffee with your friend, whichI think you should do, is going
(22:50):
to help you feel rested,energized, excited.
Everybody needs to take alittle bit of a break so that
you can come back and be abetter wife, a better mom, a
better taking care of all thethings that are important in the
household and are about to blowup, and I just think that if
that argument was true that hey,you don't have time for it,
then why even sleep?
We all know sleep and recoveryis so important, right, and we
(23:15):
give attention to that.
I also think reprieve from someof our responsibilities and
things at home and at work forsmaller pockets of time doesn't
have to be five hours a day, anhour a week, two hours a week, I
think actually makes you abetter parent, a better worker,
a better business person, so onand so forth.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, I'm glad that you brought in your wife,
because that's my next questionthat I'm going into.
Like, I was really curious toknow, like, what that looked
like for you and your wife interms of friendships and the
frequencies.
So what would you say for bothof you, like, what does that
look like?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Our cadence is, you know, once every other week,
because usually so many thingscome up.
We try to go on a date night,so whether it's like with
another couple or whether it'sjust us two.
And I also find like duringthere's different pockets of
time too.
Even on the ride to a like adinner date with another couple,
we get time to talk with eachother and I think that's really
important.
(24:06):
So we'd like to be at once aweek.
But you know, right now, with Ihave three kids under five,
there's just a lot of doctor'sappointments, and going to thing
Every other week is a reallygood cadence for us.
Also, on the week I usually amprobably have like one dinner
out.
Sometimes.
That's business.
I try to also do that withrelationships and friends, so I
do get some reprieve.
Also the same for her.
(24:27):
She's got a lot of high schoolcollege friends, friends.
You know she's a part of bookclubs, so she tries to go out
once a week and it's great Cause, like I'll stay home.
You know when she goes out thekids are already about to go to
sleep.
Anyway, I'll watch the kids andthen the flip like when I have
to go out to dinner again.
I'm there most of the night andthen, right before they go to
sleep, they just know okay,dad's going to go out for dinner
, mom's going to be home,they'll put, she'll put them
(24:48):
down, and and it's working.
We got three kids under five.
It's working well.
We feel energized and excitedand the kids are fine.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
See, and that's why I wanted to know, because I think
it's very easy for us to saythere's no time, but we have to
be more intentional.
That word's going to keepcoming back, I know, in our
conversation, because we're notdoing that.
We're just saying there's notime.
And I have a membership, andwhat I've helped parents do is
you kind of put everything thatyou don't have control over into
your schedule right.
Whatever meetings work,whatever you know that you have
(25:18):
to say yes to it's.
You know you put it in first,but then I don't care about
everything else.
I want you to put in time foryourself.
You are next right, and sowhere are you going to schedule
you know that 20 minute walkthat you want.
Where are you going to schedule?
You know your workouts if youhave to, or just even 10 minutes
of saying, wow, I'm going tohave a big day and then I'm
coming back home and we havesports and there's a lot to do,
(25:40):
and so I'm going to sit for 15minutes in my car with that
coffee and really be intentionalabout that time.
We try to do that a little bitmore, and what comes after, and
what we struggle with, ormembers sometimes struggle with
is now where do I put the friendstuff right?
But it could be that's yourpersonal time too.
If there's somebody that sortof regulates you and you feel
good after you've spoken to them, you can call them on your way
(26:03):
home from work.
You can be more intentionalabout making that connection.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Absolutely.
I'm going to say something alittle bit bold, could possibly
offend some people, but I thinkif it's for the good, then I'm
okay with it.
Everybody has time.
It's just it's already assigned.
It's already assigned.
It's already assigned.
And you know how?
How?
I know because there was and Iwrote about this in the book um
(26:29):
years ago.
I remember, looking at my phone,it just had like a little
diagnostic that came up on myiPhone and it said you spent, on
average, eight hours per day onyour phone.
Eight hours, eight hours and 34minutes.
Eight hours and 34 minutes.
I was like I'm busy, I wake upearly in the morning, I get a
workout in, I'm at work all day,I'm doing stuff with my family.
There's no possible way andyeah, some of that was for work,
(26:51):
right, I'm like picking it up,writing, emailing, but not all
of it.
And if I have even four hours,four hours, I mean I can't even
go to a four hour dinner.
So if I have four hours a dayextra, you certainly have an
hour a day.
And so I think this whole notionthat, oh, I don't have time, go
look on your phone, see howmuch time you spend on it we all
have time.
(27:12):
It just leaks out in differentways and, to your point, if you
don't schedule it, it's going tobe assigned to other things
that we don't want.
Oh, just kind of random scrollhere, 30 minutes random looking
in the fridge.
There, 45 minutes random, justkind of fumbling around on TV.
And then all the time that youcould have used to build
incredible relationships withyour family, your friends, it's
been given to stuff that youdon't really care about, of
(27:33):
stuff that you don't really careabout.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Literally, you're getting nothing in return.
Right, and most parents thatare scrolling we've spoken about
this again inside themembership but we feel there's
guilt after it.
It's like, oh, it feels crappya bit, you know, like, oh, why
did I do that?
I should, I could have beendoing this, I could have been
doing that, I was bored and nowI'm like I just with you and,
(27:58):
yes, sure, maybe it's bold, butI think we all know it deep
inside that we do have time, we,you know we.
We just have to be morestrategic in how we plan our
time, and sometimes I've evensaid this, I think, online, but
I think that we don't respectour time.
And that's my bold statement,you know, in terms of like I
don't think that we respect ourtime enough and we're very
(28:19):
careful how we spend our money,but we don't think twice about
wasting three hours on our phone.
We don't think twice about, youknow, saying yes to all the
birthday parties when our kiddoesn't even care in the end,
and so we can say yes to one andno to the other three and
actually have a weekend togetheras a family.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
We don't respect our time and so I would add that to
what you said.
No, I think that's a reallyimportant insight, because money
, it's very visible.
It's like okay, if I spent $100on something, oh, it's not in
my bank economy.
Time is not such because peopledon't think in those terms.
They don't think, oh wait, Ijust gave three hours of my time
to this, why would I do that?
(28:55):
Right?
And then you think, oh my gosh,like, oh, whatever, it's fine.
And then the same thing happensthe next day, the next day, the
next day.
Imagine if time was a bankaccount like, you probably
wouldn't want to see that thingbeing wasted, right?
But most people don't think inthose terms and I think it's
really important to startthinking about.
Your time is very valuable.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Right.
So I'm curious about a skillthat I know.
Many parents struggle withboundaries.
You spoke about this in yourbook and I think that sometimes
that's something hard for us todo in life in general, and so
when it comes to friends, wedon't set the right boundaries
and then we feel like this isnot working right, like they're
taking up a lot of our time orthere's no boundary in terms of
(29:34):
they're calling us during dinner, maybe I don't know, I'm just
throwing it out there, butthere's there's a lack of that
boundary which makes it feellike it's not healthy for us or
it's not working out.
What have you had any of theseexperiences and how did you kind
of navigate that?
Or was boundaries or boundariessomething you were always good
at setting?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, I think a couple of things.
No, not necessarily.
And actually I would say firstand foremost, I was probably the
.
I was probably the culpritbecause a lot of my friends got
married before me.
I got married at 39.
A lot of my friends weremarried in their late twenties,
even early thirties, and Iremember calling them up and I
shouldn't have, but I remembercalling them up and saying like,
yeah, let's go out, let's let'sgo out to eat, let's go hang
(30:13):
out.
Like yeah, let's go out, let'sgo out to eat, let's go hang out
, let's go watch a movie, let'sgo play some basketball at like
seven, eight o'clock at night.
And they would tell me over andover hey, man, like I can't,
just I've got like kids at home,I got to get up early tomorrow,
you don't have to do any ofthat, you're single.
(30:33):
And I remember used to otherend of that where people are
like what's the big deal?
Move something around, youdon't have to be at home.
And I'm thinking like do younot understand, right?
And so a couple of thingsaround boundaries.
One, I think just like beingvery upfront and honest about
things instead of just likehaving to kind of reject people
and saying, ah, you know, Ican't today, just being like,
look, I'm just in the season oflife and this part is hard and I
(30:56):
just I can't go out at nineo'clock at night, nor do I want
to, because I have to wake up atfive to watch these kids.
And being clear and open inyour communication from the
start, especially with otherfriends.
I think that's important.
I think secondly is just beingproactive.
Going back to scheduling things.
So if I want to maintain thisrelationship but I can't go on
the like one off, like nine 9pm,let's go hang out and go out to
(31:23):
eat or go to a bar, well, great.
Well, what if I schedulesomething in advance, like a
zoom call?
Or hey, why don't we get lunch?
Because I can, you know, I cando a one hour lunch, like once a
month.
Why don't we do that in advance?
So you're proactively investingand feeding the relationship,
versus having to reject theperson who's like making an
effort.
You got to value the effort andsaying, well, I can't, I can't,
I can't, and then the personeventually giving up and then
(31:43):
the relationship starting todwindle you know right, yeah the
communication and and settingthings up in advance to be
proactive.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
I think those two things that I've done so the
other thing that comes to mind,which I was hoping there wasn't
there wasn't a chapter on thisand I was maybe the next book.
So what happens when, let's say, you, you befriend somebody at
work, things are great, and thenyou start meeting them and then
you're like, oh, I'm getting toknow them and it's not working
(32:10):
really well.
I haven't been in the datingworld since I was 16, but how in
the world do you break up withthat friend?
What would you do?
How do you, kind of, do youjust let it go?
You start saying no until theyget the point.
Because this has to be.
I think we have to have thisconversation right, because you
will meet friends and maybethat's something that's stopping
(32:30):
somebody saying, like, well,what if in the end, I don't get
along with them?
Then what do I do?
Like, well, what if in the end,I don't get along with them?
Then what do I do?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I'm stuck with them Like what does that look like?
Exactly, exactly Well, I thinkthere's an appropriate time to
to have a very honest, frankconversation.
That might not feel fun.
I think there's also a timethat you don't.
It doesn't necessarily deservethat.
If let's say, for example, youknow me and another person we
just met up at work.
We're building a like, buildinga friendship.
First time we hung out it waskind of cool, but then, the more
(32:56):
I get to know them, I'm like ah, maybe our values don't align
At that point.
If we've hung out one or twotimes, I don't owe it to them to
sit down and be like well, thisis kind of what I value and
this is what you value, and Idon't really like that.
So here's why I'm not going tohang out with you anymore.
I don't think it needs all ofthat.
I think people get the pointlike oh okay, we hung out once,
it was fine, we're not going tobe best friends, that's okay.
(33:17):
I think we both as adultsgiving and receiving that kind
of implicit message, I think weshould be okay with that.
I think if it's someone thatyou grew up with and maybe, over
time, grew apart because ofyour values, I think that's
where, if you're going to be amature adult, I think, out of
respect for the history of therelationship, it's better to do
(33:37):
it.
I'm not saying that I've donethis perfectly.
To be honest with you.
There's times that I regret inthe past that I knew someone.
We had a longstandingfriendship.
Over time we kind of driftedapart based on values or stages
in life and I just kind of fadedaway and I think they were
maybe owed that conversation,but at the time I just wasn't
mature enough to give it.
But I think the people wouldreally value that.
(33:59):
One, people know where you standafter that conversation and two
, it's a growth opportunity forthem.
Like, how amazing would it beif someone gave me that
conversation and just said hey,rich, I really like you, I have
a lot of fun, but there's somethings that you do that I just I
don't agree with.
And again, I'm not saying thatyou're a bad person, I'm not
saying that like I hate you, I'mjust saying that that's not
something that I want to alignwith.
(34:20):
I would be like wow, that'sincredible.
The person is willing to putthemselves in an uncomfortable
situation to help give mepositive feedback.
Really that could help me withmy life If I'm the right person
I'm actually taking.
I might not feel good in themoment, but I'm the right person
(34:40):
I'm actually taking.
I might not feel good in themoment, but I'm taking that
feedback and say, wow, this isan incredible human being and I
actually want to change so thatI can stay in touch with a
person like this.
So, again, easier said thandone, I have not executed on
this perfectly, but I have doneit for people that I've cared
about and at the time it's noteasy, but it's like short-term
pain for longer term gain inrelationship.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I just find that, you know, you have to be respectful
of that long-term relationshipand I've also, you know, many
years ago, kind of doing like,especially when you become a
parent.
I think that's when you see ashift, maybe the first, maybe
not the first, maybe that's thesecond shift.
I think finishing university,there was a shift in friendships
.
Then, getting married andhaving kids, there was another
shift in friendships.
Than getting married and havingkids, there was another shift
(35:16):
in friendships in the sense that, like, some didn't have kids
yet and so they were off ontheir own and I couldn't, like
keep up with their lifestyle andso things.
You know, it wasn't aligned.
So I think it's reallyimportant for us to kind of
acknowledge that there will beshifts.
You know, and that's okay.
Being honest, that you're notin the same place, in the same
place in your life is somethingthat you can, you know, also
(35:36):
have a conversation around.
Yeah, I just wanted to bringthat up because I know that
sometimes it's uncomfortable andyou're like, oh, you know, even
becoming a parent, you're likethat person's parenting this way
.
Maybe my values have changednow that I'm a parent and I
don't align with their values,and so it doesn't feel right
anymore.
You know to be with them.
We have to acknowledge that wedon't.
What I don't like, what weshouldn't do.
(35:57):
Maybe that's a rule, I don'tknow, but when you see somebody
and you haven't seen them in awhile and you say let's grab
coffee, but you don't mean it,don't, don't do that, right, it
doesn't feel good Because youcan tell, because you're
following them on Facebook oryou know whatever it is social
media, nobody's taken the theeffort or tried to kind of
connect.
But then you see each other inperson, you're like, oh, I feel
(36:17):
bad, I haven't written to them.
We should have coffee.
Let's not do that.
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Right, I totally agree.
Words are really important.
Words are really important.
You have to follow through onwhat you say or just don't say
it.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, Just don't Exactly.
Okay.
So let's say, somebody islistening to this, there are
moms and dads that listen tothis podcast, and so maybe
there's somebody out there whostill is not convinced that it's
important to have relationships, because they're maybe feeling
content and satisfied withwhat's around them.
Like, how would you convincesomebody or at least kind of
like, start plant the littleseed of we should?
(36:52):
We need connections.
Connections truly are importantfor wellbeing.
We know that from the research.
But now how can we sort ofconvince this person to take the
baby steps that they need to dothat?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, I saw somewhere , I think on social media, like
this reel about you know, 30years from now, you would give
everything that you have to comeback to this point in your life
.
So if I'm 43, 73, yeah, I wouldprobably give up any extra
money that I had and you know,you know bigger house to be able
(37:23):
to be back with my little kids.
So I think that was emphasizingthe importance of like, don't
waste.
Don't waste these moments withyour young children.
But I think the same thingcould be true um, you know, in
the future, you, 30 years withyour relationships, 30 years
from now, you would come backand give these opportunities
while you're still young, whileyou're still healthy, while
you're still energetic, whileyou still have friends that are
(37:46):
still alive, to come back andactually rekindle those
friendships.
And you gotta, you gottaenvision yourself in the future.
You're 80 years old and eitherone of two things happen neither
, which is good.
Like you, you wake up andyou're like, wow, again, my
partner's you're my partner'snot here anymore, my kids are
(38:07):
far away.
I didn't invest in any of thoserelationships.
So, like, I'm going back tothese people now and they're
like I don't really know who youare man.
We, last 30 years we've beengoing on the golf trip and
hanging out and going out to eat.
Like you're showing up, we'redifferent people.
You're a different person.
You can't just pick up Like Iknow.
It's like you have thosefriends that you're like, oh,
I'm just going to pick up whereI left off.
Yeah, but not after 30 years.
Right, like I'm not justbecause I was best friends with
(38:29):
someone in first grade, I'm notgoing to be like, oh my God, we
like did everything together.
You're the same person.
Now let's just pick up Likethey don't even know who I am
anymore, right, and so I thinkyou know either A who knows if
they're going to be around B youdon't want to wake up and then
have invested in everything elseexcept for relationships.
So you got a really nice house.
(38:50):
You got a big, you know you gota big investment account.
You got a big, you know you gota big investment account and
then you have no one to sharethat with.
Right, like I just don't knowif people want to be there.
So I think sometimes you haveto put yourself in the future
and think backwards to like if Idon't want that to be true that
.
What are the small steps andhabits and and reoccurring
events and relationships that Ineed to start sowing into now so
(39:14):
that I don't end up there 30years from?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
now, right, yeah, and if one-on-one is intimidating,
community is important, right,like it's, you're getting the
same sort of you.
Know you, maybe you don't wantto have the one-on-one
conversation, but being withpeople it's so important and I
think about.
We visited Italy my husband'sItalian and so we went to these
little cities and I was blownaway by at these little coffee
shops, like how many smallgroups of men were together, you
(39:38):
know, like having a coffeetogether, and they were really
really old, but like they wouldmake their way and I know they
walk everywhere, so there's anadded factor to their health,
but they're walking from theirhouse with their cane to go
visit their friend at the coffeeshop, right, and at the cafes.
And so there's this feeling oflike I'm going to go see Pepito
whatever his name is right, likejust to go.
(40:00):
There's something that feels sogood.
An example is today, actually,my friend called me and said I
happen to, I'm going to bedowntown tomorrow.
Do you want to meet up tomorrow?
But we just saw each other lastweek but I was like I can't,
I'm working, I just saw you lastweek, but now I'm like itching.
Tonight is going to be reallyhard to focus because I'm going
to try to think, like, how can Isee her?
I need to make sure I can seeher.
(40:20):
There's this feeling ofexcitement right Of going to see
somebody, and so I think that,whether it's that one person or
that community that we reallyhave to push ourselves because,
again, I think you paint thatgreat picture of in the future,
it's not a given who's going tobe around us.
Our kids are going to be older.
Yes, they like to be with usnow, but they're young.
There's going to be a momentwhere they have their own lives
(40:41):
and their own family and theirown friends, and we have to have
that go-to person.
Again, it doesn't have to be 30friends, it could be that one
person that we can reach out to,or that community, and and that
could be anything spiritual,religious, right, anything that
just feels good for you, thatyou feel um seen and you're not
wearing your armor and you canbe yourself I think is important
(41:01):
that's right, that's right yeahyeah, I love that.
Thank you for the book thatyou've written um.
I really encourage everybody toread it.
We will put the link in theshow notes and and the link to
your instagram as well.
Is there anything elsehappening that we can know about
um or any other way that we canlearn from you?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, check out my podcast, the Power of
Connections.
Check out Cindy's episode.
It was awesome, cindy, you wereso great on it and I would love
to engage with you.
Feel free to reach out.
My email and contactinformation will be in the show
notes.
So, yeah, I would love toconnect with anybody.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Thank you again.
Thanks everyone for listening.
Please make sure you take amoment to rate the podcast and
subscribe to it and leave areview, and we'll see you next
Monday.
Bye, sure that you catch that.
(41:56):
I'll try to remember to mentionit in the next podcast episode.
We don't have a date yet, butwe are working on that, and so
take a moment to sign up to ournewsletter, follow us on
Instagram, Facebook and I willsee you next Monday.
Make sure you're subscribed tothe podcast.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.
The relationship recession, the path to building
meaningful connections in adisconnected world, and I think
this is such a relevant topic,especially now as we are in the
aftermath of a pandemic where wewere so isolated Some of us
have felt that that's, you know.
We can continue that.
Why not Like it's simpler,especially for those of us who
(00:21):
are introverts.
But I think that the aspect ofconnection, especially knowing
the research if you look up DrBruce Perry's research or read
his books, the research onconnection reminds us that
there's a healing aspect to it,there is a nurturing of our
mental health and well-beingaspect to it, and so if we've
been through adversity, trauma,or if we're going through stress
(00:41):
right now, connection,friendships, relationships that
we build are an important andintegral part of our wellbeing
as parents, and so I hope youenjoy my conversation with Rich
Wu as much as I did.
I will see you on the otherside and don't forget to take a
moment to click out of thisepisode and leave a rating and
review.
(01:01):
You can do this on ApplePodcasts or on Spotify.
Send me an email at info atcuriousneuroncom and I will send
you Meltdown Mountain, which isour most popular PDF on our
website, and I'll send it to youfor free as a thank you.
You can follow us on Instagramat curious underscore neuron and
grab a freebie below in theshow notes.
And if you are interested inlearning how to regulate your
(01:24):
emotions, build that selfawareness and build stronger
relationships both with yourchild and the adults around you,
grab a chat with me in mycalendar.
I'm no longer just for a littlebit, but no longer allowing
people to directly come into theReflective Parent Club.
I want to take a moment to chatwith you first and get to know
you, and when I get to know thepeople first, I build content
(01:44):
for you specifically inside theReflective Parent Club so that
it feels like you are part ofthis.
I want to make sure that we allfeel connected inside the
Reflective Parent Club and thatyou remember that you matter too
.
All right, enjoy myconversation.
I'll see you on the other side.
Welcome back everyone to theCurious Neuron podcast and I am
(02:04):
here as promised with Rich.
Welcome, rich.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Thanks for having me.
Cindy, Really excited to spendsome time with you.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I'm so excited to see you again.
I've been on your podcast and Iremember such a lovely
conversation and I was excitedto bring you back.
And first, congratulations onyour book.
I read it and really enjoyed it, and I think that we need to
all read this book to have theconversation that needs to be
had, which is around friendships.
You know, I'm always curious toknow where's the idea of like
hmm, I need to write this book.
(02:32):
So what was that like for you?
Yeah, how was that seed plantedin your mind?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
No, I appreciate that .
I think it's a couple differentplaces.
One I've had people say hey,you know why don't you write a
book?
But it's much easier to asksomeone to write a book than
actually write a book yourself.
So you know, there's alwaysbeen some different thoughts and
stirring in my mind too, and Ishared this with you before when
I was, when I was in highschool.
Unfortunately, my, my motherpassed away in an accident.
(02:57):
It was a freak whitewaterrafting accident we ended up
losing her in, and I think thatat a very young age I was 15.
My younger brother was sevenwas very formative, in the way
that I think, aboutrelationships.
I learned at a young age thatlife is not promised.
The next day is not promised.
You might think, oh right, nowI'm 43 years old.
(03:17):
Well, the average person livestill 80.
You're not guaranteed tomorrow.
My mom passed away when she wasin her early 40s and so it made
me realize at a young age thatlife is fragile, that we're not
guaranteed the time, and thetime that we do have, you have
to make the most of it.
So I think I've always kind ofcarried that intentionality and
so when I was thinking aboutwriting the book I was like, oh,
(03:38):
what do I know about?
Well, I know about people and Iknow about business.
So at first I thought I wasgoing to write a networking book
, just a business networking.
And I was like it's not reallyinspiring.
And I just cause I know aboutit doesn't mean I want to write
about it.
And so I was like what's reallyinspiring?
And to me, the idea ofinvesting in relationships,
making them count, not just likeliving life in relationship by
(03:59):
default but by design, thosekinds of like themes seem very
important to me.
And so hence you know the book,the relationship procession.
I actually have a copy right onmy desk.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I have it on my Kindle.
It was so good.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Thank you for sharing our story with you and I'm so
sorry that you had to experiencethat in such a you know, such a
young age as well.
I appreciate that you broughtthat part of the book because it
made me understand the whybehind everything that you do
and everything that you shared.
Right, because I have a friendwho had a similar experience
losing a family member at ayoung age, and what's
interesting is that whathappened to her was it was you
(04:35):
only live one sort of thing,like you need to make sure you
live and experience life,whereas your kind of response to
that was you spoke about likefamily, like bringing your
family, your, your your fatherand your, your brother together
for family dinners.
Right, like it's justinteresting to see how you know
something like that happening toyou at a young age leads to
different people takingdifferent paths.
Right, and your path wasconnection.
(04:57):
So I just I really reallyappreciate that.
And how did you?
After you know you?
You were very intentional aboutcreating these family dinners.
What did that look like?
As you were, you know, in your20s and 30s and you know now
you're working and you have,like, more people around you,
how did you continue thatconnection into your adult life.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, you know, thank you for asking.
There's a couple of thingsthere.
One part of where I got theidea from, like the family
dinners, was, yes, theimportance of attention or
relationships.
But I saw a blog post by do youknow the guy named Tim Urban.
He's done like a big TED Talk.
He has a blog called Wait butwhy?
And there's an article that,like millions of people have
(05:38):
read.
It's called the Tail End andessentially with like pictures,
he's just drawing like how much,so that you can kind of
visualize how much time you haveleft with someone.
So he says something like okay,your parents are 60.
You see them once a year.
Average person lives to like 80.
So and then he kind of drawshis stick figures you got 20
times left.
You eat pizza twice a year.
(05:59):
You know you might eat pizzamaybe for the next 40 years.
You love pizza but you knowshouldn't probably eat a lot of
pizza when you're like 80 yearsold.
You got 40 years left.
You only got 80 pizzas thatyou're going to live left,
really enjoy it.
And so that one post actuallyinspired me at a young age to
say wait, how much time do Ihave Like my mom's not here?
How much time do I have leftwith my dad or even my brother?
(06:21):
I don't know.
But what I do know is thatwe're all busy.
If I just leave it to chanceand just don't schedule
something that you know we mightmeet up once a month, once
every couple months, a coupletimes a year.
But if I say, hey, let's gettogether Sunday afternoon, we're
not no one's really busy, thenOnce a week we don't have to
hang out every day.
Well, that turned into maybe 45times.
(06:45):
You know, you miss a couple ofweeks here and there.
In a year, over 10 years, 450dinners.
To me, I feel like that's amuch better outcome than I don't
know we get together a coupletimes a year, over 10.
I don't know, we met up 20, 30times over a 10-year period.
I just think if you don't havesomething by design,
intentionality and something inyour calendar, it's not going to
(07:08):
happen as much as we think.
So.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Right, and sometimes we're lucky enough to have those
you know nagging parents, as wemight think right, or like,
come over for dinner, I haven'tseen you, I miss you, why don't
you call me Right?
And I think sometimes we takethat for granted in terms of
like, okay, I don't have time,I'm busy, I'm busy, and we use
that as an excuse.
And it's one thing talkingabout family, and we do try to
see them when we can, butfriends is a completely other
(07:34):
thing.
It's so easy to say no to afriend because everything else
is first right Our family, ourpartners, our extended family
you know, extended family,whatever it is and then
ourselves and our friends.
That goes down the list.
But you've been in very, you'vebeen very intentional about
that as well, right?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, it's interesting becauseI know now folks like, uh, you
know my, my parents' age, folksin their seventies and eighties,
and you look around and somepeople have vibrant
relationships some that you knowmaybe formed those
relationships more recently, butmany because they kept up those
relationships over time.
And then you see folks that youknow our parents aged in their
seventies and eighties and theydon't have anyone around them
(08:12):
and they never bothered to stayin touch with people or just
hone those skills of likedeveloping friendships over time
.
And so maybe your spouse passesaway, maybe your kids are far
away, maybe your spouse passesaway, maybe your kids are far
away, you don't have a communityanymore.
And so I think we sometimes, inefforts to stay in touch with
our family which are importantour spouse, our kids, you know,
(08:38):
near family members we forgetabout a very important part of
life which is the rest of thecommunity, our friends.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, no, I agree.
So this past summer I took timeto speak to 100 parents.
I wanted to make sure that Ican have a really good
understanding of, like whatparents were experiencing.
And besides parents saying that, they really struggle with
emotions, which is what I helpedthem with, the second part that
they mentioned, you know, over90% of the time was loneliness,
(09:02):
and this is why I think yourbook is so relevant.
So you know, especially whenit's it was new moms, let's say,
coming into parenthood for thefirst time, first child
maternity leave, not going towork, feeling disconnected from
colleagues and friends and nothaving the time to do things
because they have a very smallchild at home, they seem to
really struggle with thatloneliness aspect.
(09:22):
To say it's just moms, but theywere the ones that were really
mentioning that.
What sort of advice would yougive to that parent who's like
how can I even go out?
I can barely take a showerright like there's.
No, it's impossible for me tomake connections.
And and some of these parentsand these moms were also in
isolated areas, away from familyor away from cities where they
(09:44):
had made friends before andbecause of work or their
partner's work.
So there's a really bigisolation piece which, we know
through research, impacts ourwellbeing, and so what can we do
if we're a new parent and feelso lonely or isolated?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Wow, that is such.
It's so funny because I wantedto talk about that.
Loneliness is a silent killer.
They say that lonelinesssomeone who's actually, you know
, feeling experiencingloneliness that's the equivalent
to smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
And yet, you know, we thinkabout our health, we think about
, you know, our finances.
No one thinks about theirrelationships and how important
(10:19):
that is to overall well-being.
One of the studies that I citeand was the basis for my book
was a 1938 Harvard grant studythat followed 700 people over 85
years and the biggest findingthat they found was people with
deep and meaningful connectionsin their lives had higher levels
of satisfaction, happiness andlongevity in their lives.
(10:41):
And yet you contrast that withwhat's going on today in America
.
50% of Americans are saying,hey, I don't feel satisfied with
my relationships.
57% of Americans say, hey, Ifeel I feel lonely some or most
of the time.
And this is the biggest one.
And think, among men you weretalking about women feeling
lonely 20, 20% of men, more than20% of men report not even
(11:03):
having one person that they canconfide in.
I personally I don't know thenumbers and I can't recreate the
study I think the number ismore like double, because when I
talk to just men.
People have fantasy footballleagues that they're in.
They have basketball leaguesthat they're a part of poker
games that they go to.
They don't have real friendsthat they can talk to.
(11:24):
Hey, my marriage is fallingapart, my kids are driving me
crazy and I don't know what todo because I'm yelling all the
time.
Things aren't going well atwork and I'm really stressed out
Most men.
It's really sad when you talkto them and I say, well, who can
you talk to about that?
They don't have a single person.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
So that's something interesting, because whenever I
go out with friends not veryoften, but we try our best every
two months to get together.
And it's not a group of friends,it's different friends that I
meet and I met them in differenttimes in my life and so we
stayed connected.
And what's interesting is mostof our partners don't go out,
they don't take the time to meetwith a friend, they don't have
(12:04):
coffee with a friend, there'snobody that they text, and so
their best friend, their partner, is their wife and therapist
and all of that right, becausewe therapy ourselves and when we
meet each other, like, oh, Ihad the worst week and you know,
we talk together and we try togain a new perspective.
So what do you hear?
Like just kind of to go intothis a little bit deeper, right,
(12:25):
like what's the barrier?
On?
On the other side, women seemto be very intentional in terms
of, like, meeting up with peopleand friends and and making sure
we kind of maintain thoserelationships, but we still feel
lonely when we become newparents because we don't have
that connection.
How do we, or how could we,support men a little bit more to
remind them of the importanceof that connection with someone?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, that's a really good.
I'll offer a couple thoughtsand then maybe a strategy.
Well, especially for men, Ithink there's a lot of invisible
forces at work.
I think one just in society.
Right, it's not masculine totalk about your emotions or say,
hey, you know, can we likecatch up over coffee to just
talk about what's going on inlife, right, like, so you have
(13:06):
this like masculinity thing thatyou have to overcome.
Then I think there's just like auniversal fear, fear of
rejection.
I reach out, you know, you know.
Uh, john reaches out to me andI say, hey, man, I'm busy.
He reaches out again.
Hey, I'd love to, but I can't.
Now you don't want to ask thethird time, because it's like
who wants to feel like they'regetting rejected?
And this is not even likeyou're not trying to go on a
(13:28):
date, you're just trying to goout with a guy friend to catch
up, and now you're going toreject me three times.
I don't want to do that again,right, so there's a fear of
rejection.
(13:48):
I think there's an invisiblegetting rejected fear that the
person's going to think that I'mweak.
Because I want to talk, justcatch up and talk.
I could just watch some Netflix.
Maybe I'll just order somethingoff an app.
I have a Spotify playlist thatI could listen.
There's just so many otherthings I can do.
Who cares?
I don't want to do that.
And then you got the old.
You know, hey, yeah, I only seemy best friend once a year on
their birthday syndrome, right.
And so what's?
(14:09):
What are practical strategies?
That's actually I talk a lotabout that in my book, but I
think one thing that I'm reallyreally more and more everyday
convicted about is outside ofyour spouse or your next door
neighbor, who you're just goingto inadvertently bump into every
day on the way to work.
Yeah, I personally have abelief that it's going to be
(14:30):
nearly impossible to develop ameaningful relationship with
anyone else outside of that Ifit is not for a recurring
environment.
What do I mean by that?
Weekly basketball game you canplug into a book club, a dinner
club, something that you enjoy.
That happens without you havingto plan it.
Why?
Because it's easy for everyoneto opt in, so no one's having to
(14:54):
.
Hey, should we do this?
Should we not?
Can you meet at four, three?
No, wednesday doesn't work forme.
My kids forget it.
You get rid of all of that.
It's something that you enjoy,so you want to keep going to.
So either one of two things hasto happen.
You either have to take yourgroup of friends that you like
and find something that'sreoccurring that you don't have
to plan and jump into ittogether.
We all like food.
(15:16):
Let's go out to dinner once amonth, right?
Or, if there's just not thatconvergence among friends, find
something that you like and thenmeet some new friends.
But if it's not for that, Ijust I have this from personal
experience and I'm veryproactive in my friendships.
Even with that, it's hard toget in touch with even my
closest friends.
So that's my main convictionrecurring environment.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Well, I think that that was like the for me, like
the simplest thing that we canstart applying.
That I learned from your book,which was like start with
something that interests you,right?
So you mentioned before a bookclub or exercise or working out
or whatever it is, you knowwhether it's at work and like
connecting with somebody whosays, like I also work out of
the gym, oh, which gym do you goto?
Right?
Like you sort of painted thatpicture of a conversation that
you can have and I really feltlike your book was like this
(16:00):
sort of like recipe book, oflike making friendships as an
adult, which I loved because weforget, and you know what's
funny is, as I was reading yourbook, I was like, wow, we put so
much focus on making sure ourkids make friends right With
young kids were like go see that, go go to the park, go go see
that child, say hi, tell themyour name and make friends.
But then, as adults and I'mspeaking for myself too like now
(16:23):
I'm not in the, I work fromhome, so, and I have my own
company, so I'm not leaving myhouse it's really, really hard
to meet new people, but I do itthrough my online community and
my work, and so thank goodnessfor that, because I need the
connection with new people.
But at work, when I was there, Iwouldn't intentionally try to
meet up with them.
It was too much work.
It was, you know, like afterwork I'm going to go home and,
(16:44):
like you said, I'm going tounwind and I'm an introvert, and
so there's so much work thatgoes into like having this small
talk with the person right,like this is a podcast.
It's very different, but peoplethat have been following my
podcast for a while know that Idon't dig into the like.
So how have you been kind ofit's hard for me to do that.
I'm like, ok, let's get intoyour work.
You know, like that's what I dobest.
So there's so many factors thatI think contribute to making it
(17:07):
really hard for us to pushourselves past that difficulty.
Yet we're doing it, we'retelling our kids to do it, so
you've really helped us.
No-transcript.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Intentionality is the key here.
It's so interesting because Ifeel, like you know, in just
everyday life, we're intentionalabout our health, we're
intentional about our work.
We're intentional about ourhealth, we're intentional about
our work, we're intentionalabout our kids, we're
intentional about what we eatand even exercising.
All that is in front of us,like all the social media and
(18:07):
things are built around that,but we're forgetting like the
most important thing arerelationships.
So great, I'm like in greatshape and great Like I, I um get
to sleep early.
You know, matthew Walker, stuffright, and I've got a good
sleep schedule.
Great, my kids are doing wellin school, but I don't have this
relational community that willhelp me grow and build wisdom
(18:29):
and challenge my perspectivesand help me with child rearing
and give me a place where I canbe heard and understood when I'm
going through a tough time.
All these things are extremelyimportant to human development
and living and yet, for somereason, we just all neglect that
.
It's just, you know, I guessthat's not important or I'll
just settle for the default,which is I hope I just bump into
(18:51):
people and develop arelationship.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Right, or not even putting the work into that, or
not even thinking that, justthinking that the loneliness or
not the loneliness, but notthinking that you don't need
somebody.
Right, Like I've had thisdiscussion with my partner, with
my husband, where he's like I'mhappy alone.
Right, We've had this, and he'slike I don't need the problems
of other people, I don't needextra stuff in my.
(19:13):
I have three kids and a wife,so apparently I'm enough.
Now there's just too much goingon.
You know Like he's and a wife,so apparently I'm enough.
Now there's just too much goingon.
He's like that's enough.
And so we have to kind of remindourselves that we don't want
friendships to become a chore orsomething that's like oh, I'm
meeting somebody.
And I think when you focus onyour interests, it makes it much
easier to meet with somebodyand say like, oh, let's talk
(19:33):
about the book you read.
Or it doesn't have to be a sitdown dinner or coffee, right,
Like you talk about.
Like going to the gym withsomebody or playing, you know,
pickle ball or whatever it is,racquetball, who cares?
Just something where you can be, you can spend the time with
that person and just let offsome of that stress that we have
.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think I think there's.
You hit it on the head becauseI think sometimes we think about
like relationships is like Idon't need another person that
I'm just going to sit down andstare at for an hour and just
like about what?
But you're killing likemultiple birds with one stone,
right, like if I I guess kind ofcrude expression but yeah, but
if I'm like going out to to toplay pickleball I enjoy
(20:11):
pickleball, it's exercise.
I get to hang out with a friendwhich is usually a good thing
and laugh and be understood andbuild a relationship.
Maybe I become a better parentbecause I learned a tip.
There's multiple things going onin that interaction that go
beyond I don't need just anotherfriend.
It's much deeper than that andI think sometimes we fail to
appreciate that.
(20:32):
But it's definitely worth itright in the end when we invest
in those relationships.
And to your point, I don'tthink you don't need to join 15
different sports leagues andhave five dinner clubs in a
movie club.
You can do this with a coupleof people, right, and it doesn't
have to be every week, it couldbe once a month.
But I think the point isthere's a lot of value in
disguise, that we're missing,and what we don't want to do is
(20:55):
wake up 20 or 30 years later andsay, do is wake up 20 or 30
years later and say, oh my gosh,all these people have these
incredible relationships.
They've evolved as human beings.
They learn so much along theway, they laugh so much along
the way, they cried with otherpeople along the way.
I didn't have any of that.
You don't want to be thatperson.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
I'm telling you, right, I know I had a similar
experience to yours as well interms of a vacation with a
friend.
I'm 41 and I took the firstvacation with a friend, like
this year, as a 41 year old, andit was amazing and it's we kind
of opened up to each other andit was the same thing in terms
of like, wow, we've known eachother since we were 13, 14.
And it took a trip in ourforties to like really get to
(21:31):
know each other, like werealized like we hadn't really
connected before, that, right,and so I really think it's
important to kind of come out ofyour comfort zone sometimes too
, and just like, dude, I neverwould have thought I would have
taken a trip with a friend, liketo me it was just like it's
family trips and somebodydoesn't have to take a trip with
a friend.
But just put yourself a littlebit out of that comfort zone
which you talk about.
You allude to that too, youknow, in terms of we've at work
(21:58):
and somebody says they playpickleball, why not say like,
hey, do you want to want to meetup?
You know, like, but it feels sovulnerable and that's hard for
us too, right.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
I think one of the things thatI think about with regards to
the relationships.
I often get this you know kindof statement I'm just too busy,
I've got work, I've got a coupleof kids at home, that enough is
like way too much, I don't.
How could I possibly meet upwith anyone?
I think what they're saying islike if I want to do a good job
at my, at my work which isimportant and I want to be a
(22:29):
good family person, there can'tpossibly be any time for
anything else.
And I I would disagree, I wouldsay and I encourage my wife all
the time, because in thebeginning she was like this.
She's like no, I've got stuff todo at home, I cannot be outside
, I cannot meet up with anyfriends.
And I would say, okay, first ofall, going out once a week for
a coffee with your friend, whichI think you should do, is going
(22:50):
to help you feel rested,energized, excited.
Everybody needs to take alittle bit of a break so that
you can come back and be abetter wife, a better mom, a
better taking care of all thethings that are important in the
household and are about to blowup, and I just think that if
that argument was true that hey,you don't have time for it,
then why even sleep?
We all know sleep and recoveryis so important, right, and we
(23:15):
give attention to that.
I also think reprieve from someof our responsibilities and
things at home and at work forsmaller pockets of time doesn't
have to be five hours a day, anhour a week, two hours a week, I
think actually makes you abetter parent, a better worker,
a better business person, so onand so forth.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, I'm glad that you brought in your wife,
because that's my next questionthat I'm going into.
Like, I was really curious toknow, like, what that looked
like for you and your wife interms of friendships and the
frequencies.
So what would you say for bothof you, like, what does that
look like?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Our cadence is, you know, once every other week,
because usually so many thingscome up.
We try to go on a date night,so whether it's like with
another couple or whether it'sjust us two.
And I also find like duringthere's different pockets of
time too.
Even on the ride to a like adinner date with another couple,
we get time to talk with eachother and I think that's really
important.
(24:06):
So we'd like to be at once aweek.
But you know, right now, with Ihave three kids under five,
there's just a lot of doctor'sappointments, and going to thing
Every other week is a reallygood cadence for us.
Also, on the week I usually amprobably have like one dinner
out.
Sometimes.
That's business.
I try to also do that withrelationships and friends, so I
do get some reprieve.
Also the same for her.
(24:27):
She's got a lot of high schoolcollege friends, friends.
You know she's a part of bookclubs, so she tries to go out
once a week and it's great Cause, like I'll stay home.
You know when she goes out thekids are already about to go to
sleep.
Anyway, I'll watch the kids andthen the flip like when I have
to go out to dinner again.
I'm there most of the night andthen, right before they go to
sleep, they just know okay,dad's going to go out for dinner
, mom's going to be home,they'll put, she'll put them
(24:48):
down, and and it's working.
We got three kids under five.
It's working well.
We feel energized and excitedand the kids are fine.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
See, and that's why I wanted to know, because I think
it's very easy for us to saythere's no time, but we have to
be more intentional.
That word's going to keepcoming back, I know, in our
conversation, because we're notdoing that.
We're just saying there's notime.
And I have a membership, andwhat I've helped parents do is
you kind of put everything thatyou don't have control over into
your schedule right.
Whatever meetings work,whatever you know that you have
(25:18):
to say yes to it's.
You know you put it in first,but then I don't care about
everything else.
I want you to put in time foryourself.
You are next right, and sowhere are you going to schedule
you know that 20 minute walkthat you want.
Where are you going to schedule?
You know your workouts if youhave to, or just even 10 minutes
of saying, wow, I'm going tohave a big day and then I'm
coming back home and we havesports and there's a lot to do,
(25:40):
and so I'm going to sit for 15minutes in my car with that
coffee and really be intentionalabout that time.
We try to do that a little bitmore, and what comes after, and
what we struggle with, ormembers sometimes struggle with
is now where do I put the friendstuff right?
But it could be that's yourpersonal time too.
If there's somebody that sortof regulates you and you feel
good after you've spoken to them, you can call them on your way
(26:03):
home from work.
You can be more intentionalabout making that connection.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Absolutely.
I'm going to say something alittle bit bold, could possibly
offend some people, but I thinkif it's for the good, then I'm
okay with it.
Everybody has time.
It's just it's already assigned.
It's already assigned.
It's already assigned.
And you know how?
How?
I know because there was and Iwrote about this in the book um
(26:29):
years ago.
I remember, looking at my phone,it just had like a little
diagnostic that came up on myiPhone and it said you spent, on
average, eight hours per day onyour phone.
Eight hours, eight hours and 34minutes.
Eight hours and 34 minutes.
I was like I'm busy, I wake upearly in the morning, I get a
workout in, I'm at work all day,I'm doing stuff with my family.
There's no possible way andyeah, some of that was for work,
(26:51):
right, I'm like picking it up,writing, emailing, but not all
of it.
And if I have even four hours,four hours, I mean I can't even
go to a four hour dinner.
So if I have four hours a dayextra, you certainly have an
hour a day.
And so I think this whole notionthat, oh, I don't have time, go
look on your phone, see howmuch time you spend on it we all
have time.
(27:12):
It just leaks out in differentways and, to your point, if you
don't schedule it, it's going tobe assigned to other things
that we don't want.
Oh, just kind of random scrollhere, 30 minutes random looking
in the fridge.
There, 45 minutes random, justkind of fumbling around on TV.
And then all the time that youcould have used to build
incredible relationships withyour family, your friends, it's
been given to stuff that youdon't really care about, of
(27:33):
stuff that you don't really careabout.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Literally, you're getting nothing in return.
Right, and most parents thatare scrolling we've spoken about
this again inside themembership but we feel there's
guilt after it.
It's like, oh, it feels crappya bit, you know, like, oh, why
did I do that?
I should, I could have beendoing this, I could have been
doing that, I was bored and nowI'm like I just with you and,
(27:58):
yes, sure, maybe it's bold, butI think we all know it deep
inside that we do have time, we,you know we.
We just have to be morestrategic in how we plan our
time, and sometimes I've evensaid this, I think, online, but
I think that we don't respectour time.
And that's my bold statement,you know, in terms of like I
don't think that we respect ourtime enough and we're very
(28:19):
careful how we spend our money,but we don't think twice about
wasting three hours on our phone.
We don't think twice about, youknow, saying yes to all the
birthday parties when our kiddoesn't even care in the end,
and so we can say yes to one andno to the other three and
actually have a weekend togetheras a family.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
We don't respect our time and so I would add that to
what you said.
No, I think that's a reallyimportant insight, because money
, it's very visible.
It's like okay, if I spent $100on something, oh, it's not in
my bank economy.
Time is not such because peopledon't think in those terms.
They don't think, oh wait, Ijust gave three hours of my time
to this, why would I do that?
(28:55):
Right?
And then you think, oh my gosh,like, oh, whatever, it's fine.
And then the same thing happensthe next day, the next day, the
next day.
Imagine if time was a bankaccount like, you probably
wouldn't want to see that thingbeing wasted, right?
But most people don't think inthose terms and I think it's
really important to startthinking about.
Your time is very valuable.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Right.
So I'm curious about a skillthat I know.
Many parents struggle withboundaries.
You spoke about this in yourbook and I think that sometimes
that's something hard for us todo in life in general, and so
when it comes to friends, wedon't set the right boundaries
and then we feel like this isnot working right, like they're
taking up a lot of our time orthere's no boundary in terms of
(29:34):
they're calling us during dinner, maybe I don't know, I'm just
throwing it out there, butthere's there's a lack of that
boundary which makes it feellike it's not healthy for us or
it's not working out.
What have you had any of theseexperiences and how did you kind
of navigate that?
Or was boundaries or boundariessomething you were always good
at setting?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, I think a couple of things.
No, not necessarily.
And actually I would say firstand foremost, I was probably the
.
I was probably the culpritbecause a lot of my friends got
married before me.
I got married at 39.
A lot of my friends weremarried in their late twenties,
even early thirties, and Iremember calling them up and I
shouldn't have, but I remembercalling them up and saying like,
yeah, let's go out, let's let'sgo out to eat, let's go hang
(30:13):
out.
Like yeah, let's go out, let'sgo out to eat, let's go hang out
, let's go watch a movie, let'sgo play some basketball at like
seven, eight o'clock at night.
And they would tell me over andover hey, man, like I can't,
just I've got like kids at home,I got to get up early tomorrow,
you don't have to do any ofthat, you're single.
(30:33):
And I remember used to otherend of that where people are
like what's the big deal?
Move something around, youdon't have to be at home.
And I'm thinking like do younot understand, right?
And so a couple of thingsaround boundaries.
One, I think just like beingvery upfront and honest about
things instead of just likehaving to kind of reject people
and saying, ah, you know, Ican't today, just being like,
look, I'm just in the season oflife and this part is hard and I
(30:56):
just I can't go out at nineo'clock at night, nor do I want
to, because I have to wake up atfive to watch these kids.
And being clear and open inyour communication from the
start, especially with otherfriends.
I think that's important.
I think secondly is just beingproactive.
Going back to scheduling things.
So if I want to maintain thisrelationship but I can't go on
the like one off, like nine 9pm,let's go hang out and go out to
(31:23):
eat or go to a bar, well, great.
Well, what if I schedulesomething in advance, like a
zoom call?
Or hey, why don't we get lunch?
Because I can, you know, I cando a one hour lunch, like once a
month.
Why don't we do that in advance?
So you're proactively investingand feeding the relationship,
versus having to reject theperson who's like making an
effort.
You got to value the effort andsaying, well, I can't, I can't,
I can't, and then the personeventually giving up and then
(31:43):
the relationship starting todwindle you know right, yeah the
communication and and settingthings up in advance to be
proactive.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
I think those two things that I've done so the
other thing that comes to mind,which I was hoping there wasn't
there wasn't a chapter on thisand I was maybe the next book.
So what happens when, let's say, you, you befriend somebody at
work, things are great, and thenyou start meeting them and then
you're like, oh, I'm getting toknow them and it's not working
(32:10):
really well.
I haven't been in the datingworld since I was 16, but how in
the world do you break up withthat friend?
What would you do?
How do you, kind of, do youjust let it go?
You start saying no until theyget the point.
Because this has to be.
I think we have to have thisconversation right, because you
will meet friends and maybethat's something that's stopping
(32:30):
somebody saying, like, well,what if in the end, I don't get
along with them?
Then what do I do?
Like, well, what if in the end,I don't get along with them?
Then what do I do?
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I'm stuck with them Like what does that look like?
Exactly, exactly Well, I thinkthere's an appropriate time to
to have a very honest, frankconversation.
That might not feel fun.
I think there's also a timethat you don't.
It doesn't necessarily deservethat.
If let's say, for example, youknow me and another person we
just met up at work.
We're building a like, buildinga friendship.
First time we hung out it waskind of cool, but then, the more
(32:56):
I get to know them, I'm like ah, maybe our values don't align
At that point.
If we've hung out one or twotimes, I don't owe it to them to
sit down and be like well, thisis kind of what I value and
this is what you value, and Idon't really like that.
So here's why I'm not going tohang out with you anymore.
I don't think it needs all ofthat.
I think people get the pointlike oh okay, we hung out once,
it was fine, we're not going tobe best friends, that's okay.
(33:17):
I think we both as adultsgiving and receiving that kind
of implicit message, I think weshould be okay with that.
I think if it's someone thatyou grew up with and maybe, over
time, grew apart because ofyour values, I think that's
where, if you're going to be amature adult, I think, out of
respect for the history of therelationship, it's better to do
(33:37):
it.
I'm not saying that I've donethis perfectly.
To be honest with you.
There's times that I regret inthe past that I knew someone.
We had a longstandingfriendship.
Over time we kind of driftedapart based on values or stages
in life and I just kind of fadedaway and I think they were
maybe owed that conversation,but at the time I just wasn't
mature enough to give it.
But I think the people wouldreally value that.
(33:59):
One, people know where you standafter that conversation and two
, it's a growth opportunity forthem.
Like, how amazing would it beif someone gave me that
conversation and just said hey,rich, I really like you, I have
a lot of fun, but there's somethings that you do that I just I
don't agree with.
And again, I'm not saying thatyou're a bad person, I'm not
saying that like I hate you, I'mjust saying that that's not
something that I want to alignwith.
(34:20):
I would be like wow, that'sincredible.
The person is willing to putthemselves in an uncomfortable
situation to help give mepositive feedback.
Really that could help me withmy life If I'm the right person
I'm actually taking.
I might not feel good in themoment, but I'm the right person
(34:40):
I'm actually taking.
I might not feel good in themoment, but I'm taking that
feedback and say, wow, this isan incredible human being and I
actually want to change so thatI can stay in touch with a
person like this.
So, again, easier said thandone, I have not executed on
this perfectly, but I have doneit for people that I've cared
about and at the time it's noteasy, but it's like short-term
pain for longer term gain inrelationship.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I just find that, you know, you have to be respectful
of that long-term relationshipand I've also, you know, many
years ago, kind of doing like,especially when you become a
parent.
I think that's when you see ashift, maybe the first, maybe
not the first, maybe that's thesecond shift.
I think finishing university,there was a shift in friendships
.
Then, getting married andhaving kids, there was another
shift in friendships.
Than getting married and havingkids, there was another shift
(35:16):
in friendships in the sense that, like, some didn't have kids
yet and so they were off ontheir own and I couldn't, like
keep up with their lifestyle andso things.
You know, it wasn't aligned.
So I think it's reallyimportant for us to kind of
acknowledge that there will beshifts.
You know, and that's okay.
Being honest, that you're notin the same place, in the same
place in your life is somethingthat you can, you know, also
(35:36):
have a conversation around.
Yeah, I just wanted to bringthat up because I know that
sometimes it's uncomfortable andyou're like, oh, you know, even
becoming a parent, you're likethat person's parenting this way
.
Maybe my values have changednow that I'm a parent and I
don't align with their values,and so it doesn't feel right
anymore.
You know to be with them.
We have to acknowledge that wedon't.
What I don't like, what weshouldn't do.
(35:57):
Maybe that's a rule, I don'tknow, but when you see somebody
and you haven't seen them in awhile and you say let's grab
coffee, but you don't mean it,don't, don't do that, right, it
doesn't feel good Because youcan tell, because you're
following them on Facebook oryou know whatever it is social
media, nobody's taken the theeffort or tried to kind of
connect.
But then you see each other inperson, you're like, oh, I feel
(36:17):
bad, I haven't written to them.
We should have coffee.
Let's not do that.
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Right, I totally agree.
Words are really important.
Words are really important.
You have to follow through onwhat you say or just don't say
it.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, Just don't Exactly.
Okay.
So let's say, somebody islistening to this, there are
moms and dads that listen tothis podcast, and so maybe
there's somebody out there whostill is not convinced that it's
important to have relationships, because they're maybe feeling
content and satisfied withwhat's around them.
Like, how would you convincesomebody or at least kind of
like, start plant the littleseed of we should?
(36:52):
We need connections.
Connections truly are importantfor wellbeing.
We know that from the research.
But now how can we sort ofconvince this person to take the
baby steps that they need to dothat?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, I saw somewhere , I think on social media, like
this reel about you know, 30years from now, you would give
everything that you have to comeback to this point in your life
.
So if I'm 43, 73, yeah, I wouldprobably give up any extra
money that I had and you know,you know bigger house to be able
(37:23):
to be back with my little kids.
So I think that was emphasizingthe importance of like, don't
waste.
Don't waste these moments withyour young children.
But I think the same thingcould be true um, you know, in
the future, you, 30 years withyour relationships, 30 years
from now, you would come backand give these opportunities
while you're still young, whileyou're still healthy, while
you're still energetic, whileyou still have friends that are
(37:46):
still alive, to come back andactually rekindle those
friendships.
And you gotta, you gottaenvision yourself in the future.
You're 80 years old and eitherone of two things happen neither
, which is good.
Like you, you wake up andyou're like, wow, again, my
partner's you're my partner'snot here anymore, my kids are
(38:07):
far away.
I didn't invest in any of thoserelationships.
So, like, I'm going back tothese people now and they're
like I don't really know who youare man.
We, last 30 years we've beengoing on the golf trip and
hanging out and going out to eat.
Like you're showing up, we'redifferent people.
You're a different person.
You can't just pick up Like Iknow.
It's like you have thosefriends that you're like, oh,
I'm just going to pick up whereI left off.
Yeah, but not after 30 years.
Right, like I'm not justbecause I was best friends with
(38:29):
someone in first grade, I'm notgoing to be like, oh my God, we
like did everything together.
You're the same person.
Now let's just pick up Likethey don't even know who I am
anymore, right, and so I thinkyou know either A who knows if
they're going to be around B youdon't want to wake up and then
have invested in everything elseexcept for relationships.
So you got a really nice house.
(38:50):
You got a big, you know you gota big investment account.
You got a big, you know you gota big investment account and
then you have no one to sharethat with.
Right, like I just don't knowif people want to be there.
So I think sometimes you haveto put yourself in the future
and think backwards to like if Idon't want that to be true that
.
What are the small steps andhabits and and reoccurring
events and relationships that Ineed to start sowing into now so
(39:14):
that I don't end up there 30years from?
Speaker 1 (39:16):
now, right, yeah, and if one-on-one is intimidating,
community is important, right,like it's, you're getting the
same sort of you.
Know you, maybe you don't wantto have the one-on-one
conversation, but being withpeople it's so important and I
think about.
We visited Italy my husband'sItalian and so we went to these
little cities and I was blownaway by at these little coffee
shops, like how many smallgroups of men were together, you
(39:38):
know, like having a coffeetogether, and they were really
really old, but like they wouldmake their way and I know they
walk everywhere, so there's anadded factor to their health,
but they're walking from theirhouse with their cane to go
visit their friend at the coffeeshop, right, and at the cafes.
And so there's this feeling oflike I'm going to go see Pepito
whatever his name is right, likejust to go.
(40:00):
There's something that feels sogood.
An example is today, actually,my friend called me and said I
happen to, I'm going to bedowntown tomorrow.
Do you want to meet up tomorrow?
But we just saw each other lastweek but I was like I can't,
I'm working, I just saw you lastweek, but now I'm like itching.
Tonight is going to be reallyhard to focus because I'm going
to try to think, like, how can Isee her?
I need to make sure I can seeher.
(40:20):
There's this feeling ofexcitement right Of going to see
somebody, and so I think that,whether it's that one person or
that community that we reallyhave to push ourselves because,
again, I think you paint thatgreat picture of in the future,
it's not a given who's going tobe around us.
Our kids are going to be older.
Yes, they like to be with usnow, but they're young.
There's going to be a momentwhere they have their own lives
(40:41):
and their own family and theirown friends, and we have to have
that go-to person.
Again, it doesn't have to be 30friends, it could be that one
person that we can reach out to,or that community, and and that
could be anything spiritual,religious, right, anything that
just feels good for you, thatyou feel um seen and you're not
wearing your armor and you canbe yourself I think is important
(41:01):
that's right, that's right yeahyeah, I love that.
Thank you for the book thatyou've written um.
I really encourage everybody toread it.
We will put the link in theshow notes and and the link to
your instagram as well.
Is there anything elsehappening that we can know about
um or any other way that we canlearn from you?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, check out my podcast, the Power of
Connections.
Check out Cindy's episode.
It was awesome, cindy, you wereso great on it and I would love
to engage with you.
Feel free to reach out.
My email and contactinformation will be in the show
notes.
So, yeah, I would love toconnect with anybody.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Thank you again.
Thanks everyone for listening.
Please make sure you take amoment to rate the podcast and
subscribe to it and leave areview, and we'll see you next
Monday.
Bye, sure that you catch that.
(41:56):
I'll try to remember to mentionit in the next podcast episode.
We don't have a date yet, butwe are working on that, and so
take a moment to sign up to ournewsletter, follow us on
Instagram, Facebook and I willsee you next Monday.
Make sure you're subscribed tothe podcast.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.
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