How to build resilience in children by allowing them to fail with Jessica Lahey

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my dear friend , welcome to another episode of
the Curious Neuron podcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI'm your host.
Today we have a very specialguest New York Times bestselling
author, jessica Leahy.
If you have not heard of thebook the Gift of Failure and you
enjoy reading, I reallyencourage you to get this book.
So it says the Gift of Failurehow the best parents learn to

(00:23):
Let Go so their Child CanSucceed.
So this was an interesting kindof way that I got to know about
this book and how I got to knowabout Jessica's work.
But before we get into it, I dowant to take a moment to thank
the Tannenbaum Open ScienceInstitute as well as the
McConnell Foundation.
Both of these organizationsbelieve in supporting our
podcast.
Without them, this podcastwould not be possible, and so

(00:45):
thank you.
They believe in supporting ourpodcast.
Without them, this podcastwould not be possible, and so
thank you.
They believe in the podcastbecause we share science with
you.
My goal through cares neuron hasalways been to make sure that
you get access to science thatmakes sense for parents,
although there's been a lot ofpivots throughout the years.
First, just I would talk aboutyour child and their development
.
Then we focused on parentalwell-being, and that's what we
do now, and we do it in a waythat you can understand your

(01:06):
triggers, your emotions and whathelps nurture your child's
emotional well-being, and thisbook is one of those things the
ability to fail and come backfrom.
That builds resilience, andthat is very important for a
child's mental health, and thatis why I wanted to talk about
that today.
If you have not done so yet,please take a moment to rate the

(01:31):
podcast or leave a review onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
then send me an email.
Connect with me.
I'd love to hear who'slistening to the podcast and
where you're from.
Send me an email at info atcuriousneuroncom and the link is
in the show notes, and I willsend you a free PDF called
Meltdown Mountain.
And this is my way of sayingthank you, because the more
people that subscribe to thepodcast, the more ratings and

(01:57):
reviews we have, the more thatwe can keep the funding or the
more important this podcastlooks like.
It's making a difference,because they see that there are
downloads and subscriptions andshares and so on, and so that is
what brings us the funding.
The funding we get for thepodcast is not to pay me.
It's to pay the team that ittakes to build a podcast.
This is hard work and a lot ofwork, and so I'm grateful for
people like Sadie, who's helpingme produce and edit the podcast
, and without that kind of work,this podcast would not be

(02:20):
possible.
So let's take a moment to clickout and rate the podcast and
review it, and I trulyappreciate it when you take the
time to do that.
If you are new here at CuriousNeuron, my goal really is to
share the science with you inorder to help you cope with
emotions and triggers that youmight have as a parent.
So we do talk a lot aboutvarious aspects.

(02:41):
It's not just about learninghow to cope with emotions.
There's so much that comes intothat, and so I try to touch on
every single topic that impactshow we cope with emotions, how
we cope with stress and, moreimportantly, the more we can
understand our child's emotionaldevelopment and how we can
support that, the more we canprotect their future mental
health and emotional wellbeing,and so that is the whole point

(03:02):
of Curious Neuron.
If you'd like to join us onInstagram, you can do so at
Curious underscore Neuron.
You can also visitCuriousNeuroncom we have.
Now.
We are redoing the websiteagain, but we've added an added
factor where you can subscribeon the website for free.
Just create your login, but youcan start saving articles, and
so I know there are cliniciansthat listen to Curious Neuron

(03:24):
and you can do this, and thatway it's easier.
You have your little folder onour website and it's easier for
you to find your content.
Speaking of clinicians, curiousNeuron is launching a pilot
project in March and we aretaking a selected few clinics
both in Canada and the UnitedStates, and I could extend this
to another country If you reachout to me.

(03:44):
The United States and I couldextend this to another country
If you reach out to me, we cantalk about it.
But what we are doing is wehighly believe in the importance
of supporting parents and theirwellbeing and giving them high
quality education, which is whatwe've been doing here at
Curious Neuron and now with thefew companies or not companies,
but the clinics that we'vepartnered with Curious Neuron
will be available in theirclinic, there will be access to

(04:06):
content that is only availableto our clinic partners mini
courses for new parents, minicourses about tantrums and
emotional development andparenting, and these parents
that are part of these clinicswill get access to the
Reflective Parent, which is ourprogram three-month program that
allows you to learn how toregulate emotions, getting

(04:27):
support by me every single weekand accessing our evidence-based
program that we built, um.
You will get $20 off, and so ifyou want to bring Kirsten on
into your clinic, send me anemail at info at kirstencom.
I only want to take a fewclinics in March to launch this
pilot project and if it works,then we are going to go hard

(04:47):
into all the clinics and buildrelationships, because there
isn't enough support for parents, and if we are supporting a
child and saying, hey, we are,we believe that you know your
health and your mental health isimportant for us, then we have
to think about the largerpicture, which is the parent and
the caregiver that is aroundthat child and creating the
environment around them, becauseif that parent is not well,

(05:10):
then that child is not well, andso that is what we do here at
Curious Neuron, and if you areinterested in the reflective
parent, you can send me an emailinfo at curiousneuroncom or
click the link below it's mycalendar link and schedule a
meeting with me.
It's 10-15 minutes so that wecan chat to see if it's actually
a good fit.
I've closed the doors now tothe reflective parent so that I

(05:31):
can take a moment to speak withpeople, because I noticed some
people were coming in notjoining the weekly calls, not
accessing the content, and Iwanted to make sure that you get
a tour first and that we have aconversation to see if you have
, if your challenges meet, whatwe have inside the Reflective
Parent Program.
So if you want to chat with me,click the link in the show

(05:52):
notes for my calendar.
All right, let's move on to ourguest today.
Jessica Leahy is the author notonly of the Gift of Failure,
which is a New York Timesbestseller, but also of the
Addiction Inoculation, which Iwill definitely be bringing her
back in for this.
She is an amazing, amazingauthor, and what I loved about

(06:13):
her?
Well, actually, let me startwith the story.
So I gave a talk in Abu Dhabi.
Last was it October, at the endof October, that's it In
October 2024, I was invited togive a talk in Abu Dhabi.
They have the early childhoodauthority, so they're doing
really amazing work over there,and so I was invited to talk

(06:33):
about child development,emotional development
specifically, and I was lookingat the list of speakers and I
saw Jessica Leahy and I lookedup her work and I said, oh wow,
this seems really interesting.
This seems like it aligns verywell with Kirsten Ron, and so I
purchased her book on my Kindle,gone into the plane, read half
her book and I loved it so much.
And then by the time I got there, I had an opportunity not just

(06:55):
to meet her, but I sat close toher at a big dinner gala that
they had and I got to know her alittle bit more.
And she hadn't even given hertalk yet.
But I just loved the energythat she was giving.
She's so brilliant and so downto earth.
And then I was definitely soldon being a big fan of hers after
I heard her talk.
So she gave a talk after theyhad an event for kids, and so

(07:19):
think of an auditorium.
There must've been anywherebetween 800 to a thousand seats
in that auditorium and it waspretty full.
And she was up next and shestarted giving her talk, which
was about the gift of failure,right, about letting children
make mistakes and fail and learnfrom those mistakes to build
resilience.
And as she got up she kind ofscanned the room or the

(07:40):
auditorium and saw that therewere many, many kids, young kids
.
So instead of addressing theadults that were in the room
because that's the talk she hadprepared she addressed the kids
and it was like a talk that Ipersonally will never forget.
That shows just the caliber andthe quality of a speaker that

(08:01):
she is and how quick she canthink on her feet, because
instead of just speaking to us,all the professionals that were
in the audience I mean thisspeaking engagement there were
policymakers in the audience,there were doctors, there were
lawmakers, you know, there wereimportant people from Abu Dhabi
and Dubai.
She addressed the kids.
Being Dubai, she addressed thekids and to me.

(08:24):
That's what sold me on her andso when I saw her, not only had
she brought up her book for me,she chatted with me and I mean
she's just truly amazing.
She shares so much in this bookthat I highly recommend for all
parents.
That's enough talking.
That's my introduction to her.

(08:45):
She's just amazing and I knowyou're going to enjoy and love
this interview.
I know these moments becausewhen I send it to the editor and
producer of the podcast, sadie,when she writes back to me and
says thank you so much forletting me edit these episodes.
I know that it's a good episodeto share with you guys, so she

(09:05):
was excited after she edited theepisode, and so let's get
moving.
And here is my conversation withJessica Leahy, author of the
Gift of Failure.
Her book will be in the shownotes so that you can purchase
it.
I'll see you on the other side.
Hello everyone, welcome back toanother episode of the Curious
Drown podcast.
My name is Cindy and I am yourhost.

(09:26):
I am so happy that we haveJessica Leahy here today.
Author of the Gift of Failure.
I had the absolute pleasure ofmeeting her a couple of months
ago in Abu Dhabi, very far away,even though we live not too far
away.
We met on the other side and Iwas first blown away by your
talk, jessica, and then, trulyafter reading your book, you

(09:46):
shifted the way that I'm seeingso many things in my home, and
so I'm really excited to diginto this.
Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
Thank you so much.
That's like all I could everask for, you know, and
especially when we're talkingabout gift to failure stuff,
which is that we do the best wecan with the information that we
have and then, if we find outhow to do better or do
differently, we say you knowwhat?
I apologize, I'm going to moveforward now with better
information, and that's likewhat we try to model for our
kids, so it's great.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
And that was one thing I really appreciated.
We got a bit of anunderstanding of how you kind of
came together with your husbandand said, like we need to talk
about this, right?
Yeah, I'd love for ourlisteners to understand a little
bit more about how did the ideafor the book come from?
You are a teacher and you speakabout the classroom, and then
how did you kind of bring thisinto your home?

Speaker 2 (10:30):
So I have taught every grade from sixth grade to
12th grade.
I happen to love middle schooljust that's where my heart lies
and have two kids myself they'refive years apart and when I was
teaching middle school andstarting to get irritated with
the parents of my students fordoing too much for their kids

(10:51):
and making it so that like therewere no consequences for things
that the kids did wrong, orlearning moments were getting
sort of stolen right out fromunder them because the parents
would rescue them, and I wasgetting irritated with those
parents, which is a nightmare.
I mean, teachers know that theresearch is pretty clear that
when the homeschool relationshipis good, that more learning

(11:12):
happens.
So my being peeved at theparents of my students, that's a
bad place to be.
Then, just about the pointwhere I was like really getting
upset, I found out that mynine-year-old daughter could not
tie her own shoes and that wasa moment where I was like, oh
wait, a second, I'm implicatedin this too, and all sorts of

(11:34):
things started to pop up for meand I have a lot of questions.
Some research there's been lotsof research done on human
motivation and there's been someresearch done on sort of how,
extrinsic motivators and versusintrinsic motivators work in
schools, but I hadn't seen itsort of all in one place and I
was really worried that, likeover parenting and using too

(11:55):
many carrot and sticks extrinsicmotivators for kids was not
just messing with theirmotivation but it was actually
messing with their learning.
So I got to spend a couple ofyears researching this and I was
just so grateful to have theopportunity to like go deep into
the research and then produce abook that really looks at all

(12:17):
angles of that problem.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
It really does.
I mean you talk about fromyoung kids and teenagers, and I
think that it really is abeautiful guide for a parent to
keep coming back to Something assimple as rethinking when we're
at the park and you talk aboutthis and kind of stepping in.
I've done it.
I've been in that situationwhere it's, like you know, and
it's okay, like you said at thebeginning, we're going to catch
yourself in these moments and Ithink what you're doing is just

(12:40):
bringing awareness to how we'reinteracting and parenting with
your child.
And sort of the question thatI've been asking myself now in
my home is am I taking away alearning opportunity or am I
taking away a moment that theycan do something on their own?
So I just keep asking myselfthat and it's really, like I
said, giving me a different lensfor what I'm doing with my kids
.
It comes from a good place.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, I think I do a couple things now that I didn't
used to do.
Number one is the question I'mconstantly asking and keep in
mind my kids were 9 and 14 whenI wrote this book.
They're now 21 and 26.
And one's in college, one's ingraduate school.
And I still have to stop andsay wait, wait, wait, wait.
Do I want my kid to do itperfectly now?

(13:24):
Or and by perfectly I have tofull disclosure.
Sometimes I just mean, like,the way I want it done, or do I
want them to be able to do itthemselves next time?
And that the answer to thatquestion is, of course I want
them to.
You know, especially since Idon't have time left to be, you
know, hoping and praying thatI'm getting them ready for

(13:45):
adulthood because they're adults.
But um, and then the other thingis that, you know, when we are
constantly conveying the messagethat it's not okay for them to
screw things up what we're thenthey don't believe us when we
tell them that, oh, you know,sweetie, it's okay if you make a
mistake or you fail at thisthing, because what I care about
is that you learn from thisexperience, because right now

(14:06):
they do not believe us and Ispend most of my time in schools
.
I just came back yesterday fromtalking to a bunch of middle
schoolers.
They do not believe us when wesay that what we care about is
that you learn from this mistake, and they do not believe us
when we say that you know, thepoint is the learning.
They know that what we reallymean is yeah, but I really need

(14:27):
for you to get A's and there aresome other things going on as
well but that's really where thecrux of the problem lies at the
moment.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
With the grades and also with the sports.
So I posted about one of yourquotes in your book.
It was a title for a sectionand I think it really resonated
with people, because I've justbeen hearing so much about
parents talking about howintense sports are becoming and
the question you had raised inyour book is are you doing this
for?
Well?
I forgot how you worded it, butit's not for you, it's.
You're doing it for yourself.

(14:55):
Maybe it's because you know youdidn't get to a level that you
wanted and you're pushing yourchild.
But whether it's sports orgrades, I really do think that
we're saying mistakes are good,but we're not really showing
them that and they feel it.
They see the difference.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
I actually have the best book recommendation for
that and I sort of wish thisbook had.
The book that I'm going torecommend is called Raising
Empowered Athletes and it's by awoman named Kirsten Jones and
she came to one of my earlyevents for the gift of failure
and said she's an NCAA hall offame athlete herself and parent
and a parent of athletes.

(15:34):
And she's like I really want towrite this book, except for
parents of athletes.
And I was said, oh my gosh, yes, please write that book,
because we need it so badly,because we need kids who are
empowered, who can speak up forthemselves, who can make
decisions about whether or notthis is something that they want
to do long-term or if this issomething they're just trying
out.
You know I have friends rightnow whose kids are deciding
whether or not their collegechoices are going to include

(15:54):
trying to play in college or not, and you know these are really
hard questions and our wants andneeds and desires and hopes and
dreams tend to get reallywrapped up with our kids, as do
our assessments of how we'redoing as parents, and I think
that's the biggest trap that wetend to fall into is looking to
our kids for some sort of anykind of feedback or validation

(16:18):
on how we're doing as parentsand I certainly fall into that
trap all the time.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
And I certainly fall into that trap all the time

(16:45):
no-transcript independent andlook at their room and they're
not.
They're, they're not packingtheir school bags on their own.
I posted about this today justto kind of warm up to our
conversation, and I think it wasat 46% of parents said that
they pack their kids school bags.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Well, and they have all kinds of great reasons.
I'll pack more healthy food.
You know there's all kinds.
We can pull all kinds ofreasons out.
But the other problem is notjust that we're not giving them
the ability to build the skillsthat we need them to build,
we're also inadvertently tellingthem that we don't think
they're competent enough forthem to do it.
We're not letting them do it,that we don't think they're
competent enough for them to doit.
We're not letting them do itbecause we don't think they can

(17:27):
handle it, even if we're notsaying it that way.
The other big problem and toweave in sort of a whole
separate discussion is this ideaof competence, of giving kids
skills allowing them to achievemastery over things, allowing
them to achieve what we call inthe biz a sense of self-efficacy
.
That's one of the biggest, mostprotective elements against

(17:50):
substance use disorder.
And my second book is aboutpreventing substance use in kids
.
I'm in recovery myself.
I'm an alcoholic and I have twokids who are genetically
predisposed for substance usedisorder.
So this middle part, this likemaking sure that kids have
actual skills and competencemoving into adulthood, is like.
That is one of it's one of thethings I spend most of my time

(18:13):
trying to convince people to do,to let their kids develop
skills and not just feeloptimistic about the idea that
they might be able to dosomething Right, that optimism
is great, but that they haveactual skills that can't be
taken away from them.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
And that's what I've had so many of these
conversations with parents.
So my specialty is emotionregulation skills, and I tell
parents they are skills, and sowhen parents are really
frustrated with their childbecause they're having really
big emotions and they don't knowhow to cope with anger, or they
don't know how to cope withfrustration and they get mad,
right, they get disciplined fordoing whatever they did or
saying whatever they said.
I tell them but this is a skillthey need to develop and they

(18:50):
need to practice it, just likeany other skill.
And so you want to see thosemoments when they lose control,
because that's when, as a parent, you step in and say well, the
next time this happens, youcould you know, I could see that
you were frustrated, and so on.
Right, so it's the same thingwith what you're saying.
I think that we get reallyeasily frustrated as parents,
but we forget to step back andsay, okay, what is it that my

(19:11):
child is trying to do?
They're trying to learn how topack their school bag.
Maybe they don't have theexecutive function skills and
you allude to that as well.
You talk about the cognitiveskills.
The executive functions are soimportant for many of these
things, and whenever I tell,tell parents like did you train,
help them with executivefunction skills, they're like no
, what is that?
So I think there's still a lotfor us to learn about as parents

(19:34):
in terms of what we can giveour children as skills or help
them.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
That thing that surprised.
One of the things thatsurprised me the most was Wendy
Grolnick's research.
She's at Clark University andshe did this really cool
research that sort of underpinsthe sort of the ideas you were
just discussing, and part ofthat has to do with her.
She did this research around.
You know.
She gave kids a somewhatchallenging task a mother child
pairs, a somewhat challengingtask for the kids and then coded

(20:02):
the behavior to see.
You know how the parentshandled it.
And some of the parents werewhat we call autonomy supportive
parents, where they allowed thekid to do the task the way they
wanted to do it and you know inwhat order and how.
You know all that sort of stuff.
And then some of the parentswere highly controlling or
directive around the task.
And the key takeaway is thatwhen she re-ran this, when she

(20:25):
had the parents come back to thelab, she separated the kids
from the parents because,knowing what type of parent they
were, she wanted to see howcapable kids were of being able
to complete challenging tasks,tasks that were intended to
frustrate them a little bit,because she wanted to see how
the kids would manage thatfeeling of frustration.
And what was fascinating isthat the kids who had the

(20:49):
autonomy supportive parents,almost all of them completed the
task successfully, whereas thekids who had the really
directive or controlling parents, they didn't complete, they
were not able to complete thetask.
And I say over and over and overagain as a teacher, this scares
me to death because some of themost powerful teaching tools I

(21:09):
have.
One of them is called desirabledifficulties, and desirable
difficulties are tasks that aresomewhat difficult to parse in
the short term, like on thefront end, and yet if a kid can
stick with it, if the kid canstick with the task, they will
learn more deeply in the shortterm and more durably over the

(21:31):
long term.
So let's think about this whocan benefit from this incredibly
powerful teaching tool?
It's not kids who are going togive up because they don't know
how to feel that frustration andbe OK with it.
And you know, in my classroomit looks like you know the kid
who I hand something out andthey're like hand shoots up in
the air and they're like Mrs.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Lay.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Mrs Lay.
Mrs Lay, help, help, help, helphelp.
Before they've even read theinstructions or thought about it
or you know, given themselves amoment to sort of say, okay, no
, I can, I can do this.
And when you talked about ournatural desire to do for our
kids and make them happy, partof what we're doing, to be
honest, is just wanting toalleviate that frustration.

(22:12):
We hate seeing our kids going Ican't, I can't do it, it's too
hard, I'm so stupid.
I don't want to see that in mykids or in my students, so I
just want to fix it.
I just want to fix it, and so Ido it for them and thereby
remove the learning opportunityand underline this sort of and
that's okay.
I don't think you're capable ofdoing it yourself.

(22:34):
So it's a whole bunch of stuffthat gets all tangled up and, in
the end, just messes withlearning.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Speaking of wanting to keep our child kind of happy,
I posted also, I asked in mystories how many parents like if
a child had forgotten about aproject or they're doing it at
the last minute and it's thenight before, two hours past
their bedtime, would the parentjust do it for them and let them
go to bed?
Would the parent help them sothat it's done more quickly?
Would they just let them not doit or complete it and the

(23:02):
consequences degrade there andyou know, you, the consequences,
the grade.
There were some that said thatI forget the percentage, but
again it was over 40% that saidthey would do it with the child
to make sure that it gets done,and about 10 or 15% said they
would do it for them, tell themto go to bed and then do it for
them so that it's complete andthey get their grades.
And I was thinking about yourexample in the book that it was

(23:22):
just a wonderful example whenyour child forgot their
assignment at home or their.
And I really put myself in yourshoes and I was like what is
she going to do?

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, the context is so important there because
people hear about this and thinkthat my point of view is that
you should never, ever take yourkid anything that they've ever
forgotten or left at home.
And that's it's not quitecomplete.
So my daughter was specificallyhaving problems remembering to
put her homework in her backpackand take it to school.

(23:55):
At first we thought she wasn'tdoing her homework, but we had a
conversation and found out no,no, no, she was doing her
homework, she just wasn'tturning it in.
So I have a kid that I know hasa specific problem with putting
her homework in her backpackand taking it to school.
And then I find out that she'sleft it on the table and the bus
.
She's outside of the bus stopand the bus is coming and the

(24:15):
school is like right down thestreet from my house and I had
to go there anyway later in theday and I knew I couldn't take
it to her because I mean, yes,it would have saved her, yes,
the teacher wouldn't have gottenmad at her.
She was starting to get teasedfor being like, oh, that kid
that forgets everything, like Iwant to fix all of that and I
didn't take it.

(24:36):
And you know, someonechallenged me online about it, I
put something about Facebook onit and I talk about that in the
book.
But in the end, the way thatthat ended up playing out, which
isn't fully in the book becauseit took lots of time.
Sometimes these aren't thingsthat you can find an answer to

(24:56):
really, really quickly.
Sometimes you see the resultsway down the road.
So that day the teacher kepther in and I have thanked the
teacher for this many times forfinally saying you know, like
look, this is a problem.
You've got to come up with asolution.
You've got to come up with asolution today.
What's your solution going tobe?
And that day my daughter, as ifshe had invented the concept of

(25:17):
the checklist, was like achecklist, this is it.
It's magic.
I've invented this.
Clearly, it's my thing.
And what was fascinating aboutit is she continues to this day
Actually, I can't say it's tothis day because I don't know
what she's doing in her dormroom but until two years ago
continued to make checklistsFrom fourth grade all the way

(25:38):
through the end of high school,used a checklist every single
morning and it started like thevery first ones were like get
dressed.
You know little things like that.
But they always finish withbrush teeth and, you know, go
out to bus or car or whatever.
And I watched her brush herteeth while looking at the
checklist that was on ourrefrigerator every day.
And if, if I had taken thehomework, if the teacher hadn't

(26:00):
taken her to task that day, ifthe teacher hadn't done some
problem solving with her, thatproblem would have gone on for
much longer until you know,those neurons started talking to
each other in the upper part ofher brain and her executive
function skills, you know.
But in the meantime it's ourjob to help them come up with
strategies to support them untilthose, that part of the brain,

(26:22):
comes online.
It's just it wasn't online forher yet, but that doesn't mean
she's excused from it.
It just means she's got to comeup with better strategies.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
I still.
I just think it's such a goodexample for us to kind of again,
like you said, it's not everytime and it's not like right, I
guess just that one story peoplecan take it out of context.
But I think it's a goodreminder of thinking about every
moment.
Is this a good teaching moment?
Is this a moment that willsupport my child and get them
get the point across?
You know, yesterday I wasgiving a workshop to some

(26:52):
teachers and I was.
I was speaking with them andthey said that the biggest
problem they have with thesehigh school students is that
they come in after lunch it's athing apparently I don't know
after lunch with no books, nopencil, nothing in their hands,
knowing that they have a class,and then they start asking oh, I
need to go get my pencil, Ineed to go get my book.
Oh, I didn't bring this, Ididn't bring that.
And teachers were telling mehow frustrated they were, and so

(27:13):
I told the teachers to readyour book.
Because I just said can we letthem fail?
Like, how do you strategicallysay like, well, today you don't
learn?

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, I don't know Well, actually, what school
administrator, the principal orsuperintendent will say okay,
how do we support parents goingforward If, if we're saying to
them that we care about you know, we care about more than just
your kid's grades.
We care that your kid, you know, can problem solve and come up

(27:42):
with strategies, and we'll behere to help them do that, I say
great, that sounds fantastic.
What you do is you send out anemail to that, to your school
community, saying that we caremore about your kids' grades, we
care that they learn how toproblem solve and become
competent and manage their lifeand their resources and all
these things.
So, to that end, startingtomorrow, there will be no more

(28:06):
delivering items, forgottenitems, to school after first
bell.
And what's nice about that isthat it's not like the parent
saying no, I won't bring it toyou, and it's not you know.
So the kid can't get mad at theparent, but it also and then the
school, usually the like thesecretary usually has to deal
with, like these tables full ofstuff accumulating in the front

(28:27):
lobby.
But also, let's think about itfrom an equity perspective who
can deliver stuff to school,like in the middle of the
morning?
It's certainly not someone whouses public transportation or
does shift work.
So if you're thinking aboutyour whole community and what's
equitable for your wholecommunity and showing the kids
and the parents that you reallydo care about the kids and will

(28:49):
be there to help problem solvewith them and you'll help them
work through the issues no, youcan't bring forgotten things to
school anymore and we'll helpthem.
If it's their lunch, if it's ahomework, whatever, we will help
them problem solve around that.
But but this is a wholecommunity thing now Of course,
but the students are not even.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
It's not even about a parent bringing it in.
It's that they're leavingeverything in their lockers.
So I think even more of anopportunity.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Right, but same sort of message.
I mean, if that's the messageof the school community, then
the teacher can say you knowthat thing we said.
And by the way, the other nicething is as an advisor it was
sort of my job to help kids, youknow, problem solve, how to use
their plan book to figure outwhich things to take, Like, oh
okay, if you go to your lockerat this point in the day, you
need to get your things for yournext three classes so that you

(29:36):
don't have to go back.
All that sort of stuff.
That's what teachers andadministrators like, that's what
we do.
We're not just there to teachthe Krebs cycle, we're there to
like, help them with all of thatother stuff too.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, I want to get back to that because I want to
ask you at some point about howa parent can go about
scaffolding this, because it'snot just that it's magically
going to happen.
But before we get there, I'mcurious to know during your
research for your book thisover-parenting thing that is
happening so much right now thatwe hear about all the time did
you see like a growth of it, anappearance of it, at some point

(30:09):
through your research?
What do you think is thedifference between I mean, I'm
thinking about how I was raisedand there wasn't that much over
parenting, and where you kind ofleft a little bit on your own.
There were strict rules, notthe same as today.
What happened?

Speaker 2 (30:24):
So there's a whole I love doing the history part.
So, like in the addictioninoculation, I got to do a great
like history of, you know,addictive substances and the you
know that kind of stuff.
Um, in this book, you know,really came down to like we're
having fewer children, we'rehaving them later, after having
been in the workforce longer,having gotten more education,
we're using the tools that weacquired for work or whatever.

(30:47):
And if that's a spreadsheet orwhatever that thing is, we're
also used to getting reportcards or short-term you know
reports on our performance.
And you know I joke in the bookthat for a while I wasn't
working.
When I had my, when I had myfirst kid, I was lucky enough to
get some time off.
I was in graduate school at thetime and I wanted grades.

(31:07):
I wanted someone to give mefeedback on how my parenting was
doing, because it was like abig vacuum of information.
And I get these little growthcharts and I'm like, woohoo, the
head is at whatever percent.
You know all that stuff.
But after that, you know wejust don't get a lot of feedback
and we tend to default to ourkids and their performance as

(31:30):
our feedback.
And you know I and I did it alot when my kids were really
little but by the time you know,I'd done the research for this
book and I'd done some personalgrowth by the time they went off
to look at colleges.
I told my oldest kid I wantedsome small symbolic act that
would convey a lot ofinformation, a lot of meaning

(31:51):
around that.
And I said you know the onething I will not do I will not
put a sticker indicating whereyou're going to college.
It's a common thing in the USfor people to put stickers of
where their kids are in college,like parent of a whatever
student, or just the collegelogo.
I said you know, this decisionthat you make about where you're
going to become an adult is tooimportant for me to get to brag

(32:15):
about it in a park in the highschool parking lot.
This is about you and whereyou're going to become an adult.
So it was just a dumb littlesymbolic act for me to say that
you know this isn't about me,this is about you and I don't
get to, like you know, take myfeedback on my parenting based
on your SAT scores and where yougot into a college, that kind
of thing.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
I love that you did that, because I do think that
again, I, the parents, I'maround friends and family.
It's like the better the gradesare, that's what people are
talking about my child's thebest at this and we forget about
just the regular conversation.
We don't have to talk aboutachievements, you know like it's
okay and it puts pressure onthe child too.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Well, and they hear it Of course.
And they're hearing it and whatthey get from that is,
unfortunately, what studentstell me all the time is that
they are fairly sure that theirparents love them more when they
get high grades and less whenthey get low grades.
Because what they're seeing usdo is heap the praise on only
when they're getting it rightthe first time, and not when

(33:13):
they work through a challengeand maybe get it right the third
time.
That's not.
We don't tend to really focuson the process.
We tend to really focus on theend product, and that's
unfortunate because then againthey don't believe us when we
say you know that's OK if youscrew this up.
What I care about is thatyou're learning from the
experience.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Right, I really appreciate that part of your
research kind of brought that tolight, because I do think that
I think I would add, with theparents that I've been working
with, we have a scale insideCureSneuron where we have them
do the parental competence scaleand it's really interesting
because 40% of parents usuallyscore low and so perhaps there's

(33:53):
also a link to that in terms ofbut it's a feeling of
competence I don't think I havethe skills to parent my child.
There's a big emphasis onemotions right now and many
parents are not raised learninghow to regulate emotions.
So part of my theory is, youknow that perhaps they don't
know how to show up with warmthand sensitivity, knowing that
that's important, but they neverreceived that and so it's

(34:13):
difficult.
But it makes a lot of sensethat the achievements are
somewhere or a space when theycan say I'm succeeding at
parenting.
I don't know how to show upwith warmth and sensitivity, but
my kids doing well in school.
So it would kind of make sense,right, because we, it's again
that confidence piece and that'snot easy.
So I it makes sense.
Well, I think also sometimeswe're doing praise.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
That is sort of a double edged thing where we're
like giving them praise but it'sfor the things that we want
from them and not necessarilyfor the things they want for
themselves or things that arebased on bigger goals.
Or you know, they're watchingwhat we do too, that's.
The other thing is, you know,and then if we're not showing
them that we we make mistakesand we screw up, and oh my God,
like I talk about this a lotthat the dinner table is such a

(35:01):
great place to talk about wherewe screwed up during our day and
how we plan to rectify thesituation, or you know, an
apology we have to make tosomeone, or discussing what it
means to have a good friend.
Like you know, all of thesethings, that we just sort of
expect them to get life skillsstuff, that we just expect them
to pick up somewhere.
That doesn't just magicallyhappen.
You know having to when I wastalking to my kid recently about

(35:24):
a difficult conversation I hadwith a friend of mine and I
wasn't being a great friend, inresponse to the fact that I felt
like she hadn't been a goodfriend, and that's really
important part of learning howto manage relationships and it
just doesn't occur to us to haveconversations about these
reward, because I do think it'ssomething that parents struggle
with.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
You know how to praise, how to give you know,
should I give rewards?
I was talking to a teacher andshe said that in their classroom
and their school there's lotsof charts and so you do

(36:03):
something great, you get asticker or you get a reward.
Those don't work.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
They don't work.
Extrinsic motivators do notwork over the long term to boost
motivation to do the thingsthat we want kids to do, Not
just kids anybody.
And actually I have to saywhile I, while we're talking
about them, there is oneexception it appears to the
sticker chart not working thing,and that's with diaper training
, because we think that pottytraining, because we think that

(36:28):
there's something about likegetting out of diapers, being a
big girl, big boy, underpants,is like its own sort of internal
motivation.
But sticker charts, money forgrades, the grades themselves,
points, scores, honors, and thenlike coercions, like monitoring
them on their phones, checkingthe school portal constantly.

(36:49):
I am never in a million yearssaying we can't use these things
, but we have to think aboutthem as what they are, which is
extrinsic motivators, and theydo not work to boost motivation
over the long term.
They undermine motivation overthe long term.
And I say this in the book ifyou want your kids to not want
to learn math, pay them fortheir math grades.
It's really clear.

(37:09):
This is not me.
This is 60 years of really goodresearch and if you want to
know more about it, read EdwardDC's why we Do what we Do.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Ah, thank you.
So then, what's the option?
Because I know somebody who'slistening to this now is saying
okay, maybe they're a teacher wehave lots of teachers that
listen, Maybe they're a parentand they're like well then,
Jessica, what should I do in myhome or my classroom?
Because nobody listens to meand nobody does what they have
to do.
What do I do?

Speaker 2 (37:35):
You see, the problem is with extrinsic motivators,
with things like sticker chartsor things like we even have here
in the US I don't know if theyuse them in Canada, but there's
these rewards for behaviorprograms and I won't name them
by, I'd love to not get sued,but they, they, it's essentially
like trinkets or stars andwhatever in in return for

(37:56):
behavior, and those don't workeither.
Like, essentially, not only dothey not work, but what we're
doing is we're teaching kids todo the right thing only when
someone's watching.
Like, essentially, if you lookat, like, for example, schools
of character that are reallyworking hard on their character
education programs, the theultimate goal is for kids to
know the right, do the right,and then do the right.

(38:17):
When do the right thing?
When no one is watching?
And for a lot of kids they'd belike well, why would I do the
right thing when no one'swatching?
I don't get stars for that, Idon't get a reward for that, so
that bugs me.
So yeah, essentially what weneed to do and again, this is
not my research, this is EdwardDeasy's research that if we want

(38:38):
to boost intrinsic motivation,like motivation to actually do
things for the sake of the thingitself, whether it's learning,
practicing piano, behavioralstuff, whatever.
We've got to do three things,which is give them more autonomy
and which is choice and control.
Number two help them feel morecompetent and not just confident

(38:58):
.
I love myself a confident kid.
It's part of the formula, foryou know, we talk about the seas
of resilience and confidence isone, but competence is really
important, having actual skillsand mastery so that you have
this feeling of self-efficacyand that kind of stuff and
connection.
And you know when, if I'mhaving this conversation with

(39:20):
teachers, it looked it soundsone way.
If I'm having this conversationwith parents, it's really just
about are you feeling seen,heard, known, loved for who you
are and regardless of yourperformance, right, and those,
the autonomy, the competence andthe connection.
I would have to have a reallyspecific example of like how do

(39:41):
I get a kid to do this thing?
Because you need to know whatmotivates the kid, what their
goals are, what's the, what arethe pressure points for that kid
, what are what leverage?
Can I use what else if it'sabout getting them to do their
math homework, like, are theyinterested in space?
And can you talk to them aboutthe fact that, in order to be an
astronaut.
Astronauts have to do a lot ofmath, and someday we'll watch

(40:04):
this movie, like you know,apollo 13, where they had to.
When they didn't have anyinstruments, they had to do all
this math to figure out just howmuch to turn this vehicle so
that they could adjust theirtrajectory to not skip off the
atmosphere.
All of these kinds of thingsare all about knowing who your
kid is, what their interests are, what their goals are, what
really motivates them, givingthem more choice, helping them

(40:27):
feel competent and then makingsure they know that you support
them, no matter what theirperformance level is.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
So you described the self-determination theory which
I talk a lot about, the threeTrying so hard not to use jargon
.
Come on.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
But it's a good one.
Our audience knows it.
It's fine we're science-based,Okay good.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Excellent Good.
But, yeah, I think that we cando this within our home.
I think it might be harder inthe classroom.
So you know, when I was talkingto this teacher, she said what
else can we possibly do when wehave so many kids in the
classroom?

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Well, and think about it this way when I'm teaching,
I have to use points, I have touse scores.
They're going to get grades.
There's going to be an honorroll, maybe there's going to be,
maybe even a class rank.
They're going to have to taketests in order to go to college.
Extrinsic motors, motivators,are everywhere, right, yeah, so
the way we do this, the way wesort of at least try to shift a

(41:23):
little bit over, is to focusmore on the process than on the
end product.
Right.
So if a kid comes to you andthey're like freaking out over
the difference between an Aminus and a B plus, if you can
drag that conversation back overto yes, but what?
What did you understand andwhat did you not understand?
What are you going to ask forextra help around?
Did you get a good night'ssleep the night before that test

(41:44):
?
Or did you stay up an extrahour to review, because the
sleep is more effective formemory consolidation?
How about, you know?
Did you have a good breakfast,you know?
Oh, you say your friend got anA and you got an F.
Well, what did your friend dothat you didn't do?
What did you do that yourfriend didn't do?
What are you going to?
What exactly happened here,what worked that we're going to

(42:06):
bring forward with us and whatdidn't work that we're going to
leave behind?
That focus on process is notonly important for, like getting
them to believe us when we say,yeah, what I really care about
is you learn from this.
It also reduces anxiety,because what you're doing is
bringing the locus of controlback to the kid.
When we talk about praise, thisis a really important aspect of

(42:27):
that, which is we try to makeour praise as general as
possible and our criticisms asspecific as possible.
So when a kid comes home andthey're like my teacher hates me
, and you can say, well, okay,well, let's get a little, let's
talk about this a little bit.
Like why is your teacher, whydo you think your teacher hates

(42:48):
you?
And it usually comes down tolike your kid did this thing
that the teacher didn't like,and so you make it as specific
as possible, because now you'rekidding and you can say what,
what is it that you could maybedo in the future?
That around this thing that youdid that made your teacher
upset with you, that maybe wouldprevent that in the future.
Now you're bringing the locusof control back to the kid.

(43:10):
But if they do something, ifthey come home and they're like
my teacher really loves me today, and you say, well, what is it
specifically that your teacherwas really loving today?
And your kid is like, well, Iwas quiet and didn't speak out
of turn and raised my hand andyou say you see that when you
are listening, you're using yourlistening years and you're all

(43:33):
that sort of stuff and make itas general as possible so that
they can see, oh, I was able tocontrol this thing and it's
applicable to all thesedifferent other areas of my
world.
So anytime we can give somelocus of control back to the
kids, it's going to lower theiranxiety and it's going to help
them feel like they have thatself-efficacy to use those

(43:53):
skills moving forward and inother contexts.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
That makes a lot of sense and I think it's very
attainable for a teacher.
Right now You're not looking at, like, the needs and the
interests in each child, but theenvironment that you're
building, and that's theenvironment that's not focusing
on that one little thing, I'msure it's.
So this would probably be aconversation for another time.
But you know the changes thatwould need to be done in the
system itself, right?
Because no matter how much thatteacher is working to say it's

(44:18):
not the grade.
I really do want you, I'mseeing progress, I'm seeing that
you're improving and I'm happywith that.
And the child says but I'mstill at a B minus and that's
not good enough.
How you know, it must be sohard to kind of get them to
disconnect from the grade.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Interesting.
You say that because when I,you know, when I speak at
schools and give kids my emailaddress so that they can tell me
what it is they want theirparents to know, the biggest one
I get.
Number one is I'm not mybrother, I'm not my sister, I'm
not my parents when they were myage, I'm not their do-over,
that kind of thing.
But another big one I get is Ireally am doing my best and my

(44:55):
parents don't believe me.
And what is a kid supposed todo with that?
Number one they're not feelingtrusted.
Number two if a kid really andtruly believes that they're
doing their best, then whatthey're missing is skills.
Right, so teaching them skills.
And again, that brings locus ofcontrol back, which is great.
But one of the things that'sbeen really fascinating in

(45:16):
talking to kids about this stuffand in getting their actual
thoughts on how we need tochange these things, a lot of
them, you know, don't see usmodeling the behavior that
they're expecting.
So, whether it's you know, Idon't understand why I can't
have my phone and yet all theadults around me are using their
phones constantly.

(45:37):
Or I don't understand why it'sso important for me to, you know
, do X when the, when the andand taking emotional risks,
taking risks around intellectualrisks.
I had a parent once asked me tocome up with a list of really
difficult books to read for herkid because her kids weren't

(45:57):
reading for pleasure.
And I was like, well, that'skind of a magic list, but I will
try to help you with that.
But in the meantime, do yourchildren see you read for
pleasure?
And she had to admit that.
You know, I work really longhours and sometimes I read on my
iPad and I had to say, well,from your kid's perspective that
doesn't really count becausethey can't tell what you're

(46:18):
doing on your iPad.
And also, there's no magic wand.
In fact I have magic wands onmy board behind me because I say
this so often.
There's no magic wand I canwave.
That will make your kidinterested in reading.
If they don't see that it's apriority for you, you know they
will watch what we do and dothat.
They're not just going to dowhat we say.
So we have to be thinking aboutour modeling all the time.

(46:40):
If you know, parents come to meand say my kid just will not
take any, she won't take thechallenge problems, she won't
admit when she doesn't knowsomething she won't stay after
to get extra help.
I just don't know what to doand she's so afraid that she's
going to fail at something shewon't even try.
I it's hard, but I have to sayso.

(47:01):
So what kind of patterns is sheseeing from you, like, does she
see you try things that arehard for you, for you know?
Does she see you?
So one of the things that I dowith my kids and continue to do
with my kids is, every quarteror so, we make three goals for
ourselves our goals they can'tbe my goals imposed on them our

(47:21):
goals, and one of them has to bea little scary.
And then, three months later,we check in and we sort of ask
how things went and talk aboutwhat went well and what didn't,
because that's a safe place.
To screw up is within your owngoals and they have to see us.
You know taking someintellectual and emotional risks
as well.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
I love that.
It's such a good um thing tostart implementing in our homes
too, and simple right, showingour kids that we have goals, and
also the disappointment ofmaybe I didn't reach the goal
and that's okay.
How do you model that?
I think that's a good segueinto kind of having the
conversation of where to start,because maybe a parent is
listening and they have athree-year-old and they say,
well, it's not the right time,whereas after reading your book,

(48:01):
I think there's always a righttime.
You said you're never too young, right?
And so when you said youstarted when your kids were a
little bit older, but what didthose initial steps look like in
your home and how can parentsstart, I would say that I would
think the first step is noticingwhen you're stepping in.
But so what would that looklike for a parent?

Speaker 2 (48:17):
For really little kids.
I mean never, ever, rip the rugout from kids and like, just
stop doing stuff for them.
I mean that's confusing anddisturbing and yeah.
So the nice thing about olderkids is you can say you know
what I?
I?
I realized I've been reallylooking at what I've been doing
and I've been nagging a lot.
I've been doing a lot for you.
I've been undermining yourcompetence, undermining your

(48:39):
ability to develop new skills,and that stops now.
And let's start not witheverything all at one time.
You know you don't want toagain rip the rug out from
underneath them but say like,for example, around homework,
I'm constantly nagging youaround homework and that needs
to stop you.
Homework, I'm constantlynagging you around homework and

(49:00):
that needs to stop.
You're in high school now, likeI won't even be there in a
couple of years when you need toremember all your stuff.
So here are expectations, arereally clear expectations, and
here are very clear logicalconsequences.
Not like you don't do yourhomework and you lose your
digital device or whatever it's.
Some sort of logicalconsequence has to do with the
homework.
For us it was you have to havea conference with the teacher
and with the parent where youlead it, we help you come up

(49:24):
with strategies.
But for littler kids it's greatbecause you can just say
something as simple as you knowwhat mommy does a lot for you
and I think you can do a lot ofstuff that I didn't even realize
.
You do no-transcript thereactually taking a little video

(49:59):
for me.
And the kid had figured outwhat he would do is he would
sort of jump up and reach in andget the laundry and he would
hand it to his little toddlersister and if he slipped and
felt and couldn't get out, itwas her job to grab his feet and
pull on his feet.
And I watched this toddler andthis like five-year-old
essentially get the laundry fromthe washer into the dryer and

(50:22):
the five-year-old even pretendedthat he slipped in so that the
little sister could sort of pullon his feet to pull him down.
It was the cutest thing I'veever seen.
I have another video of youknow of a toddler loading some
plastic dishes in the dishwasherand the mom was like yeah, I
had no idea this was somethingshe was capable of.
So let them at least try tosurprise you, try to show you,

(50:45):
because you know little thingsstart small.
Take a look, if you want toGoogle Montessori kid kitchens
and watch some videos of whatthe theory behind Montessori
kitchens and you know kitchenskills are.
Watch those kids prepare.
You know, sometimes at firstpretend food and you know later

(51:06):
on they're real snacks in theselittle you know.
Let kids try.
Let them at least try and don'ttake over.
You know, give them support andguidance and redirection, but
don't take over for them.
I want to support and guidanceand redirection, but don't take
over for them.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
I want to if you weren't going to say it.
I was going to say it Don'ttake over, because I know that
it's hard.
Maybe the dish won't be loadedin the way that you're used to
doing it.
Maybe if you ask them to maketheir bed, and they make it and
everything is crooked, let it go.
We have to let it go becauseI've seen it with my kids as
well.
The more we let it go and themore proud they feel, the more
they'll do it on their own,because that's the intrinsic

(51:38):
motivation coming in.
But we have to let them do itin their way and really have the
conversation in our mind tolike step back what's?

Speaker 2 (51:45):
fascinating is the response I get often which is
like, oh, I'm just notcomfortable with things being
out of order.
I'm not comfortable with likethat.
And in fact, the most popularblog post I have ever put up
still remains something I wrotefor fun, just for me.
My youngest sort of all out ofthe blue, just sort of kind of
started pretending like shedidn't know how to do laundry,

(52:06):
even though I knew full well sheknew how to do laundry.
So it turns out that if youhave a washing machine, that if
you have laundry machines thatare enameled like especially if
they're white you can use dryerase marker and put
instructions like all over themachine with arrows and
instructions on things.
So I did it really in a fun way, like stop, before you put

(52:27):
those jeans in there, check tosee if the socks are still
wadded up up with the underwear,you know, and that kind of
stuff, and it's a.
It's a if you Google JessicaLeahy or just Leahy and special
care instructions.
It was so much fun.
Actually an appliancemanufacturer wanted to use it
for a campaign because it wasjust.
It's just as really fun way ofsaying to your kids I know you

(52:55):
can do this and if you forgetsomething, here's the support
you need to make sure that youcan do it.
But you got this.
Here's everything, all thetools you need to be able to do
it and I have confidence in you.
You can make it.
It doesn't have to be a naggingmean thing all the time.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Well, that's what I was going to say, right, like I
think that a parent that startsthis tomorrow, there's going to
be a learning process for theparent.
There's going to be a learningprocess for the child.
It's not going to naturallyjust happen because you're like,
hey, you want to load thedishwasher, and they're like, no
, you know, I've never done itbefore, they might, but they
might not, and so I thinkthere's going to be a buildup to
that.
What if a parent is reallystruggling?

Speaker 2 (53:27):
There's also a honeymoon period where things
will go well for a short periodof time.
Then they won't.
There's a book called how to Bea Happier Parent where KJ Del
Antonio talks very specificallyabout the fact that habit
formation for this kind of stuffreally works best if it's for
an entire season.
So like rotating chore chartsare less effective in creating
new habits in kids because itreally does take a full season,

(53:49):
like three months, to develophabits.
So instead of rotating, haveyou know, for an entire season,
certain jobs be their jobs,because it just we.
The more we understand abouthabit formation, the more we get
that.
It's sort of a longer termprocess than we're used to, but
sorry.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
That's a good reminder?
No, not at all.
I think that's a really goodreminder that it's going to take
time and some work as a familyand a unit.
So I may be a parent.
Now is questioning the chartsor the checklist.
Does that fall within, likesomething you're okay, that's
okay Not that you're okay with,but that that works and supports
them.
Or is it like a reward of somesort right, like maybe they're
questioning that?

Speaker 2 (54:26):
You know the chart thing.
What I'm talking aboutspecifically is like kids
getting a star, kids gettingmoney, kids getting a penny kids
, whatever in exchange for athing that they need to do.
First of all, speaking ofchores, since we were on that,
it's really important that we'renot paying kids to do stuff
around the house.
Ron Lieber also talks aboutthis in his book the Opposite of

(54:46):
Spoiled, a book I love becauseyou know we do stuff around the
house, we do household dutiesbecause we're part of a family.
There's research that shows,actually, that when kids have a
hand in keeping the householdrunning, that when bad stuff
happens if someone gets sick orif there's a death in the family
or whatever that those kidsactually suffer fewer or less

(55:07):
sort of emotional distressbecause they feel like again
we're back to locus of control,because they feel like they have
a part in keeping things going.
So we don't pay kids to dochores or household duties
around the house.
That's part of being a family.
Kids get money or allowance tolearn how to deal with money,
but there's no problem withhaving lists of things like

(55:29):
here's a reminder, here's who'son duty for dishwasher duty, all
that kind of stuff.
But when it comes down to it.
Here's the problem withextrinsic motivators is they
work great in the short term.
They really work great in theshort term I'm speaking of
honeymoon phase but over thelong term they don't work.
That's just like I said.

(55:51):
The research is really clear 60years of really good research
studies that have been studied.
We have metadata, we have allthis stuff.
We know that extrinsicmotivators do not work over the
long-term to boost motivationand they undermine motivation.
They undermine creativity.
That's a nightmare situation,especially for a teacher.
You know education should be along-term creative endeavor and

(56:14):
it's a shame that grades andpoints and scores and grades and
all that sort of stuff areworking at odds.
Think about what it's like forart and music teachers who have
to assess and give a grade forcreative output, when we know
that grades in exchange forcreative output undermine
creative output and make thingsless creative and result in kids
spending less time and lesspersonal investment in the

(56:35):
creative endeavor.
It's a catch-22.
I get that.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
So if I'm a parent and I listen to this and then I
come back to this podcastepisode and I say, well, it's
been two weeks and my10-year-old I had this talk, my
husband and I sat at the tableand we said you know what?
We're going to give you somemore responsibility.
And now two weeks have passedand they come back to the
podcast to make sure they goteverything right, because it's
been two weeks and that child isnot.

(57:00):
Let's say, the responsibilitywe decided was going to be
washing the dishes and dishesaren't getting done, they're
piling up.
And here I am nagging andgetting frustrated every day.
What happens?
What do I do next?

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Yeah, I mean you've got to, for you've got to get a
little bit creative about and alittle bit have more discussions
about.
You know why you're doing someof this stuff and you know
putting down the blanketstatement okay, your job is now
dishes and that's just how it'sgoing to go from here on out.
You set some really clearexpectations.
You explained that this is whatwe do to help each other out,
like if they don't do the dishes, then someone else is going to

(57:36):
have to do the dishes, and if itmeans I have to do the dishes,
then I can't.
I won't have time to bake thosecupcakes that you need for that
school thing tomorrow, and soit's all a.
You know there's a push and apull in a family and we love
each other and we support eachother and that's why we do this
persistence and follow through.
I know it's just, it sounds sohard and it is hard over in the

(58:00):
front end, but then over thelongterm it really does pay off.
And if a kid really and trulyis not doing something that you
need for them to do, the problemis and actually it was funny I
just saw Mel Robbins has thisnew book out called let them.
And she I just saw her on apodcast like yesterday, and she
was talking about the fact thatthe minute you try to control

(58:20):
someone else this is not herresearch.
This is a lot of people'sresearch that went into this
that the minute someone doessomething like nag or try to
control that, our immediateresponse is not oh yeah, I'm
sorry, let me do that thing.
It's no, no, is not.
Oh yeah, I'm sorry, let me dothat thing.
It's no, no, it's like.
The reason I don't belong to abook club is that if a book gets
assigned to me, it'simmediately the last book I want

(58:41):
to read, like there are 20other books I want to read now
because you've just told me Ihave to read that book.
So the more we can sort ofsupport them in ways of thinking
that it's their idea, givingthem more autonomy around when
they do it, like when they dotheir homework, or helping them
give them any kind of locus ofcontrol around it.

(59:02):
I think of it like you know, ifit's cold outside and your
toddler needs to wear a hat, youdon't say, hey, toddler, do you
want to wear a hat.
You say, do you want to wearthe red hat or the blue hat,
because it gets you get somebuy-in If the kids aren't doing
it.
Sit all the kids down togetherand say you know, here's the
problem in this family, and somepeople are doing their jobs and
some people are not doing theirjobs.

(59:23):
So how do you think we couldhelp each other?
Don't ever underestimate thepower of peer peer pressure and
sibling pressure to help sort ofkeep things moving.
But yeah, and constantlyremember, this is, parenting is
a long-term thing.
It's not a linear slope.

(59:43):
It doesn't get a little bitbetter every single day,
especially when you're talkingabout things like executive
function skills.
It's up and down, and up anddown, and up and down, and that
this is all about process andless about end product.
Like, is this really aboutdoing the dishes right this very
second, or is this about takingon responsibility, pitching in
as a family, making it clearthat we all have work to do in

(01:00:06):
order to support each other, andit makes it a little less
frustrating.
And then my very last piece ofadvice is this the more you know
about adolescent braindevelopment and I'm going to go
with adolescents here because ofthat explosive period of growth
the more you know about how theadolescent brain works, the
easier it is to take a breathand look right between their

(01:00:27):
eyes and remember that this isthe part of the brain that's not
hooked up yet.
Right, all that stuff we wantthem to be able to do, like
remember to do their homeworkand manage their time and their
resources and keep a schedule.
That's adulting stuff and thatstuff isn't fully hooked up
until the early to mid-20s.
And so this whole time we havewith kids is all about process.

(01:00:51):
Very little of what we do asparents is about end product.
Almost everything we do isprocess oriented.
So, you know, is it frustrating?
Yeah, yeah, am I did?
I just have a conversation withmy 21 year old earlier today
about dishes in the sink?
Yeah, but has she come?
And and to answer your earlierquestion about, you know, not

(01:01:15):
being able to rely on extrinsicmotivators and praise, let's
look at progress.
Let's look at incrementalprogress.
As a writing teacher, you knowwriting doesn't get better Like
all at once.
It happens over a very longperiod of time.
So that's why I keep writingsamples for my students so that
I can say, yeah, I know it'sfrustrating, but let's look at
where you were a year ago.

(01:01:35):
Let's look at where you weresix months ago.
If, for fun, let's look atwhere you were in second grade.
Now that you're in sixth grade,um, showing them process,
saying things like you know what, sweetie, I'm really proud of
you with sticking with that mathhomework because, like six
months ago, you would have onlylasted two or three minutes and
you've been going at it for 10minutes now.
And I'm really proud of you forthat Pointing out incremental

(01:01:57):
progress to them, because theydon't even with us.
We don't have a great sense of,we just get used to things as
they are.
We don't think a lot about howfar we've come, which is why
it's really great to look backat stuff you've done in the past
and realize, oh, I have gottenbetter at that, I am better at
that.

(01:02:17):
Look at where my kid is now.
It's really frustrating and Ijust want to whack them.
But let's look at where theywere six months ago or a year
ago.
Could they have done the thingsthey're doing today?
Six months ago?
No?
So yay us, we're doing a greatjob.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
We forget that we just were so focused on getting
the better grade and gettingbetter at whatever we're doing,
that we forget that they've comea long way and I love that
you're saying that we need tokind of not celebrate it but
mention it and bring it up andkeep reminding them that there
is progress and the failure too,right.
So I think about that childthat you said like sometimes my
kids would be like I don't wantto wear a hat.

(01:02:50):
Okay, then don't wear one.
And then guess what?
Ten minutes later they'd comein and be like it's cold, give
me my hat.
And I'm like okay, andsometimes it's really hard as a
parent.
It's like just put your hat on,or you need to wear boots,
don't put your running shoes on.
And you argue with them andargue and they're like I want to
wear my shoes.
You know what?
Go outside with your shoes andthen they get the snow inside

(01:03:10):
and then they cry and then it'scold and guess what?

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
they don't during yeah, during the period, during
the period that we decided itwas time to stop packing for our
kids, we went on a weekend tripto Montreal and it was below
zero and our youngest did nothave a coat, and that sucked
yeah, it was awful she was cold,she was really cold and it

(01:03:32):
limited some of the things thatwe could do.
But have we talked about that3000 times since then and did
that change her ability to plan?

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Yeah, most of the conversations I've had with
people always come back to theparent doing the work on
themselves first.
Would you see it that way aswell?
Because I'm thinking about theconversation I had with teachers
yesterday and they said thatyou know, when I told them, like
, how do you let them, how canyou let them fail, given that
locker problem?

(01:04:08):
And they said, even if therewere 60 teachers in front of me,
they said, even if we would dothat, we would probably hear
from the parents in front of me.
And they said, even if we woulddo that, we would probably hear
from the parents, we wouldprobably get in trouble somehow
or they'd be disappointed thatwe let their child not be able
to take notes during the classbecause they didn't bring their
pencil for the 400th time thatthey didn't bring a pencil in
class.
So I feel like we do have tokind of end this conversation

(01:04:30):
with the reflections we need tothink of as parents and in terms
of how we think of failure,because I've met so many parents
that themselves whether it'swork, parenting, just looking
like everything is perfect intheir home they don't want to
fail.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Yeah, there's also an issue of mutual respect.
I used to have this conversationeven in middle school with my
students where I say you're, youknow, I get very little time
with you during the day and Ihave a lesson plan and there's a
certain amount of learning thatwe all get to do together and
when you have to go away, you'retaking away from that time.
I come to our class prepared,I'm ready to start the minute

(01:05:04):
everyone walks in the door, andso it's a matter of mutual
respect.
If you're not prepared when youwalk in the door, then you're
telling me that you don'trespect my time.
Telling me that you don'trespect my time If I were to not
show up to class on time, or ifI were to not be ready when you
guys walk in, then what I'msaying is I don't respect you
enough to be prepared.
So having these kind of youknow back we're back to
pro-social skills and socialemotional learning and all that

(01:05:27):
kind of stuff Having the abilityto like, flip the perspective
can often be really helpful whenwe're talking to kids about
things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Yeah, I get that there's a lot of work for us to
do, but again, I appreciatedyour book so much.
I just loved the idea of kindof looking at it from a
different perspective in termsof what am I doing with my kids
and am I taking a little momentof an opportunity of learning
away from them without evenrealizing?
And now they make a mess, theyhave to clean it up themselves,

(01:05:56):
and even if they spread the milkall over the wooden floor, then
it's.
I have to step back and justtell them well, do you think
it's sticky?
What else can we do?
My kids are young, they're five, seven and nine.
But the five-year-old nowcleans his own mess, and it's.
I mean, I read your book rightbefore the holidays and it's
just been a few weeks and hecleans.
He doesn't say like oops, dropmy milk and then just waits

(01:06:18):
there, He'll clean it up, and soit's made a big difference.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
Yeah, there have been a few moments, it's.
We don't, like I said before,we don't often get the rewards
for the efforts that we'remaking right in that moment.
But I remember I was.
I took my eldest to get hisdriver's license and we got
there and he was sitting downand filling out all the forms
and next to us was a mother andher daughter and the daughter
was on her phone and the motherwas filling out the forms,

(01:06:43):
asking the daughter some detailsthat she needed to fill out the
forms, and my kid looked at melike what is going on there and
you end up in a situation wherea kid doesn't even know how to
fill forms, doesn't know basicinformation about themselves.
I run across kids all the timewho don't know their zip code or
don't know where they live ordon't know the name of their

(01:07:05):
doctor and that kind of stuff,and we can't wait until they.
I think a lot of parents thinkthey'll magically just sort of
get it at 18.
And that's just not how thatworks and sometimes we have to
plan for it.
A very favorite one that I'veever done I realized I take my

(01:07:25):
kids on workshops with me a lotjust because it's great
opportunities to do stuff withthem and I realized at a certain
point that I was dragging themthrough airports and that not
explaining sort of why we'redoing all these weird things.
Like you need ID here but notthere, and then you need your
boarding pass but not.
So what you can do is you canfudge the time you need to get
at the airport and get therejust a whole hour early, just

(01:07:45):
plan for like a whole hour early, and walk in through the doors
and say, okay, what do we do?
And give your kid theopportunity, like you're going
to, you're there to help them.
You haven't run away, youhaven't abandoned them, but like
do you want their first timefiguring out how to get through
an airport by themselves, whenthey're actually by themselves,

(01:08:06):
or would you prefer that theyfigure it out while they have
you there to support them andnot like give them the answers
but say, well, let's think itthrough.
What things might you need ateach stop of the way going
through this?
And man, I'm glad I did thatbecause I have kids who you know
now obviously travel bythemselves and I don't know when

(01:08:27):
I assumed they were going tolearn that, if not in an actual
opportunity to learn that I'mgoing to confess as an adult.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
I just learned it like three, four years ago.
I never traveled and when Iwalked in the first time I was
like wait a second.
I've always followed my husbandbecause I like being the person
that just I didn't have tothink, and so I confess I was
one of those people.
All of us want our kids to beresilient and we all want our
kids to be autonomous, but if wecontinue on this path of doing

(01:08:54):
it all for them, they will notbe autonomous.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Oh, we're already hearing that from like.
I hear from college professors,I hear from bosses, I hear from
people who employ youngerpeople constantly how
unbelievably horrified they arewith the lack of communication
skills, the lack of, you know,just general life competence.
And, yeah, I'm really worriedfor those kids.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
Yeah, so we need to reevaluate how we're doing that
in our home and I think thatthis conversation is going to
help a lot of parents kind oftake some notes and see where
they can, where there's room forimprovement in their house.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Can I, can I give you resources?
If they want more specifics,yes, please.
So, um, I was told.
So gift of failure talks peopletend to come to.
It's like, yeah, it was abestselling book, all that sort
of stuff, but it was hard for meto get people to come to my
substance use prevention talksCause that's, it's a scary topic
.
So a friend of mine recommendedwell, since you don't mind
making videos, why don't youmake bite-sized chunks of go

(01:09:54):
through both books?
So there are 400 videos on mywebsite.
If you go to JessicaLaheycom,under videos, there's like 200
addiction, over 200 addictioninoculation videos.
They're 90 seconds long,they're Instagram real length.
And then for gift of failure,there's about there's about 200

(01:10:15):
or so, a little under 200.
And it gets really granular inall of these topics.
So if you have more questionsabout any of these topics,
there's a bajillion videos overthere that you can go to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
Thank you.
And where else can people learnfrom you?
I know you have an Instagramaccount.
Is that your personal one orbusiness?

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
Yeah, so I have Jessica Leahycom Everything is
always there and my newsletteris jesslaheysubstackcom and
that's where I write about sortof the stuff I'm currently
researching speaking eventswhere I'll be, that kind of
stuff.
And for the writers in youraudience, I also happen to host
a podcast called the Hashtwriting podcast with three other

(01:10:55):
authors, all bestsellingauthors.
So if you're interested inwriting and interested in you
know the publishing industry andstuff like that, you can go.
And that's at Substack as well.
It's actually anywhere you getpodcasts.
Hashtag am writing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
I will put the links to all of those in the show
notes, because I want everybodyto learn more from you and to
connect with you and, if you'reokay with it, your next book is
my next book to read, and somaybe we can have you back later
this season or this year.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
I would love that.
I would absolutely love that Iwas just debaking some videos,
for I was at a school this pastweek and kids asked me questions
.
It was a substance useprevention talk and kids asked
me the best questions.
They asked me amazing questions, and so I'm currently today
actually making a bunch ofvideos to answer their questions
as well.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
I absolutely love that.
Thank you for everything thatyou do and for the research that
you put into your books.
The quality is outstanding.
Such a good read and animportant resource.
So thanks again, Jessica.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I
did.
Please take a moment to sharethis podcast interview.
You can even use the link onYouTube.
The full episode is up onYouTube as well.
Share it with friends, withfamily, with coworkers.
If you are a teacher, if youare a clinician, this book is
amazing and Jessica Leahy's workis just outstanding.
And take a moment to rate thepodcast, leave a review and

(01:12:16):
follow us on Instagram atCurious underscore Neuron.
I will see you next Monday.
I hope you all have a beautifuland wonderful week.
Bye.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to build resilience in children by allowing them to fail with Jessica Lahey