March 17, 2025 • 57 mins
What can the dying teach us about living? In this transformative conversation, Dr. Kathy Zhang, a palliative care physician, shares profound insights from her work with patients at the end of life that can revolutionize our approach to parenting and emotional wellbeing.
Dr. Zhang reveals how witnessing death daily has paradoxically enhanced her appreciation for life's simple joys. Rather than creating fear, regular exposure to mortality has normalized it, allowing her to find deep gratitude in mundane moments like "just waking up." This perspective shift offers parents a powerful lens through which to view their daily interactions with their children.
The conversation takes an unexpected turn as Dr. Zhang introduces her "bathtub metaphor" to explain the crucial difference between rest and restoration. Many parents mistakenly believe that "doing nothing" on weekends will recharge them, then wonder why they feel just as depleted on Monday. She explains that rest merely "plugs the drain" to prevent further energy loss, while true restoration actively "adds water to the bathtub" through meaningful connection with yourself or others.
About Dr. Zhang:
Dr. Luyi Kathy Zhang is a hospice & palliative care physician, TEDx speaker & hypnotist. She has comforted thousands of dying patients and held space for their deepest secrets, biggest regrets and final wishes. She’s made it her mission to share these life-changing insights so people can benefit from deathbed wisdom while they’re still young and healthy.
Follow Dr. Zhang on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/dr.luyikathyzhang/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, dear friend, welcome to the Reflective Parent
Podcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI am your host.
If you are a parent that istruly struggling with feeling
like you, have the skills toparent your child, or feeling
overwhelmed and stressed becauseyou can't cope with your
emotions and never reallylearned how to regulate your
emotions, then you are at theright place.
I am a mom of three fromMontreal, canada, and I have a
(00:22):
PhD in neuroscience.
I am the founder and CEO ofCurious Neuron, and the goal of
everything that we do here is tohelp you learn how to regulate
your emotions.
That is my own specialty interms of teaching you how to
regulate the self-awarenesspiece and, more importantly, how
to cope with your stress, howto manage the stress and
emotions that come withparenting.
(00:44):
And, more importantly, thereason why we recently changed
the name of this podcast toReflective Parenting is because
of the model that we've beencreating inside Curious Neuron,
where lots of parents that wespeak with are trying their best
to follow positive parenting,but it's not working, and so I
think that the alternative tothis there's nothing wrong with
positive parenting, but I thinkthat we don't have the skills.
(01:07):
We have not learned how to copewith our emotions, yet we're
being told to stay calm andsupport our child through their
own emotions, and so it createsa lot of stress and overwhelm
for a parent, and so if you aresomebody that struggles with
that, then you are at the rightplace.
I'm here to help you learn howto regulate your emotions, and
we touch on all aspects ofwellbeing, because all of these
(01:31):
aspects will support, nurture orimpact or influence in a
negative way your capacity todeal with emotions and stress,
and so today we are taking adifferent angle.
It's maybe a darker side forsome.
Maybe talking about death isuncomfortable, but I think that
we need to kind of do thisthought activity a little bit
and work on this together,because my guest today had such
(01:56):
a positive outlook on life, eventhough she works with people
who are dying, and I thoughtthat it would be an interesting
twist to what we bring here atCurious Neuron as well as this
podcast.
So, before we begin, I'd like tothank the Tannenbaum Open
Science Institute, as well asthe McConnell Foundation, for
supporting the Curious Neuronthe switch has.
(02:18):
It's too fresh for supportingthe Reflective Parenting Podcast
, which used to be called theCurious Neuron Podcast, but I am
so grateful for these twoorganizations as I am grateful
for you.
The downloads, number ofdownloads and weekly downloads
have been increasing, so I hopethat you are sharing this
podcast with many of yourfriends and family members and
(02:38):
coworkers.
I know that when I sent out anemail last week saying that the
title of the email was Goodbye,curious Neuron Podcast, I got a
few emails saying what are youdoing?
Don't stop it.
But you had to click and readthe email to show that I was
saying goodbye to the CuriousNeuron Podcast, but we were
saying hello to ReflectiveParenting Podcast, which is the
(02:58):
same podcast I'm not changing.
However, if we do not continueto grow this podcast, then the
funding will stop it's.
I don't say this as a threat.
I'm saying this because it'sthe reality of it, and so please
, if you have not done so yet,rate the podcast on spotify or
on apple podcasts.
And if you want a freebie andyou're doing this and you want
(03:18):
to leave a review as well, sendme an email at info at curious
neuron dot com.
I will send you MeltdownMountain, which is our most
popular PDF on our website.
You can get the link to all ofthat down below if you would
like, but I would also like toinvite you to follow us on
Instagram, if you are there, atcurious underscore neuron, as
(03:38):
well, as you can follow us atReflective Parenting Podcast.
You can follow us at ReflectiveParenting Podcast, and if
you're somebody listening tothis podcast and you truly
struggle with figuring out whyyou are easily triggered or you
go from zero to 100 with yourchild, or that you just feel so
overwhelmed with trying toimplement positive parenting,
feeling like you're keeping youryou know, staying calm and cool
(04:02):
collected, but your child isn'treally responding well to that
and you're having trouble withdiscipline, then maybe you'd
like to join the ReflectiveParenting Club.
What we do there is I meet withyou every single week.
We are a small group of parentsthat meet.
There's, you know, lots ofpeople that are in the club, but
not everybody joins the weeklycalls, because there are people
from around the world, and so ifyou are somebody that wants to
(04:25):
get support, we have a course.
But, more importantly, I meetwith you every week because I
know that it's not easy and acourse does not suffice.
You need somebody to speak with.
You need to say, hey, this iswhat I did last week, or this is
what I had trouble with.
You need somebody to kind ofbounce that off of, to get, um,
uh, to help you gain, I guess, anew perspective or see
(04:46):
something differently, and sothat's why it didn't feel right
to just put out a course.
I needed to show up every weekand be there with you as you are
working through our programthat covers the four domains of
emotional intelligence, allbacked by science, because
everything here at CuriousNeuron, including this podcast,
is backed by science.
All right, let's move on to ourguest.
I'm really excited to sharethis conversation with you.
(05:08):
Dr Kathy Zhang is somebody thatI came across on social media
and dug into her work.
She is a palliative carephysician and the work that she
does is not easy.
But, more importantly, I feltthat through her content that
she was putting out there there,that we had a lot to learn from
her, specifically around restand restoration, which she's
(05:28):
going to talk about in ourconversation.
I just feel that many of us sitback and say I'm doing
absolutely nothing this weekend,and then Monday comes around
and we still feel tired andexhausted and, like we didn't do
anything that helped us, youknow, regain some of that energy
.
So she has an amazing analogyaround that.
More importantly, I know thatmany of us are struggling right
(05:49):
now, and I think that thisthought activity of picturing
the end allows us to come backinto the present and say, hey,
these are things I need tochange before the end comes, and
it's not to be morbid or dark,but I do think that there's
space for us to have thesethought activities, and so I
personally really enjoyed myconversation with her.
(06:10):
When I came up the stairsbecause I recorded my basement
my husband was like you're,you're, you're.
You have this big smile on yourface and he knew who I was
talking with.
And he's like do you have a newperspective on life?
And he was saying it as a joke,but my response was yeah, I do.
I just felt that theconversation I had with her gave
me a new lens to look atcertain things from, and I hope
that you get the same feeling atthe end of this conversation.
(06:31):
So, without letting you waitany longer, please enjoy my
conversation with Dr Kathy Zhang.
Hello everyone, welcome back tothe Curious Neuron Podcast.
And, as promised in my intro,here I am with Dr Kathy Zhang.
Welcome to the Curious NeuronPodcast Hi, how are you?
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure and I'm reallyexcited about this conversation
because you're bringing in anangle that I've never brought in
(06:53):
before, and so your work isinteresting, I think, to many of
us, and also scary to many ofus, and we wonder, like, how
heavy is that?
And so can you.
I'm always interested to knowhow people ended up where they
are today.
What was your path that broughtyou to the work you do today?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh, such a good question so I'll try to keep it
short.
I am an only child daughter ofChinese immigrants, and growing
up the pinnacle of success inAmerica was to become a doctor.
So I was like, okay, going togo do that.
I did that, trained in internalmedicine, worked for four years
as what we call a hospitalistsomeone who cares for people who
(07:31):
are sick enough to be admittedto the hospital Loved it and
then realized at some point thatit wasn't providing the kind of
meaning that I really wantedand I wasn't having the kind of
interactions I really wanted.
At some point I felt like it waslike a revolving door of
patch-up jobs and I wasn'tgetting deeper.
So I went back into trainingfor hospice and palliative care
(07:53):
and now I do that, which means Itake care of sick and or dying
people in the hospital.
And along that way, when Ifirst got into hospice and
palliative care, no-transcript,no intent on being a coach or a
(08:37):
therapist I'm not a therapistbut a coach or a hypnotist and
now I'm just sharing what I knowto help people be able to live
a little bit easier amongst theday to day.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's an interesting journey that brought you to this
, and a hard one, right Withhardship, and that's what kind
of guided you to where you aretoday.
It's really interesting interms of you know death because
as a parent, I remember aftergiving birth to my firstborn,
the concept of death became moreapparent to me for some reason
(09:09):
after the birth.
My grandfather had passed awaya few months before that and I
had experienced for the firsttime, witnessed death.
I had my hand on his chest whenit happened, but that wasn't.
It didn't make me sad aboutdeath, it made me realize that
that was part of life.
But then witnessing't make mesad about death.
It made me realize that thatwas part of life.
But then witnessing life mademe sad about death.
It was this really weird battlethat I had in the postpartum
(09:31):
phase or interesting battle, Iguess, in my mind of the sadness
but many parents that I speakwith feel the same way in the
sense that this new life bringsup this fear of death.
What has been now that you arein this field and you've been
for a while?
Has it changed your perception,or maybe it's the same as
(09:51):
before?
What is your sort of vision onthat in terms of death?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting, the duality of
it, because cognitively, I thinkwe're all aware that we're all
not going to make it out right,that we're all going to die at
some point.
But just the, I think, thedissociation between like okay,
that's in the future sometime,and then when you have some big
life change, like having a childright, I just adopted a dog a
(10:19):
few days ago and I know it's notlike the same thing at all and
it was like, oh, I'm responsiblefor this life, this being yes,
exactly, right, yeah.
And the associated emotions andthe anxiety that goes along with
that can be really jarring tosomeone's nervous system.
I'll say that being arounddeath so often now has made me
(10:43):
appreciate life just reallybland things.
But two also is that I don'tthink I think most people, if
they're lucky, will probablyhave a handful of experiences
with death in their immediatefamily or friends or that sort
of thing.
But when you do the work everysingle day, you're like everyone
dies every single day, everyminute of every day.
(11:05):
It just desensitizes you to thefear of it and normalizes it in
a way, not saying that it's nottragic or going to have a lot
of negative emotions, becausewith death there's also so much
love and grief that comes withit, but it just makes it like,
(11:25):
oh, it just happens to everyoneand it's a little bit easier to
handle, a little bit Sure.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I get that you mentioned being desensitized, so
I guess, yes, of course you'rearound it, but it seems to be
also that it kind of brings yourawareness a little bit higher
in terms of life.
Right, what are some thingsthat you've changed in your life
, given the experiences thatyou've had with people who are
(11:54):
dying?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah.
So one thing is that, likeevery morning that I wake up,
I'm like, oh, I woke up.
Today.
That I wake up, I'm like, oh, Iwoke up today.
It sounds really silly, butwhen you see as much as I do
with people who are much youngerI'm in my 30s but people who
(12:16):
are teens in their 20s, peoplewho are my age, people who are
much older, who just are walking, they're fine one day and
something happens right, theyget hit by a bus, they have an
accident, or they just getdiagnosed with some terrible
disease.
And I'm here just being like, ohokay, I woke up today, check
(12:37):
okay, body's okay, I'm stillbreathing, I'm still walking, I
have a home, all these thingsand it just makes you really
grateful for the little things.
And it sounds so cliche, and Iknow it does, and from
experience from people who have,let's say, had near death
experiences, they're just like,oh my God, I see life so
(12:58):
differently.
You know, I try to make a pointto tell my husband or people
that I love, that I care aboutthem, and tell them to their
face while they're still alive,instead of saving it for, let's
say, their eulogy, or you know aspecial occasion, because you
know every day is a specialoccasion.
(13:19):
if you're like, oh man, I couldhave been dead, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
It's true, you're like, oh man, I could have been
dead.
It's true.
I find, when it comes tohappiness and wellbeing, this is
something that I focus on somuch with parents here at
Curious Neuron, and sometimes weget stuck in this sort of cycle
of I'll be happy when I getthat home, I'll be happy when I
can bring my family on this trip, or whatever it is, and then we
get stuck in that like livingin that future, possible future.
(13:44):
You talked about gratitude andjust waking up and saying like,
whew, okay, thank you, whateverit is, I'm just happy to be here
in that gratitude.
What are some changes that wecould make?
Because many people are stuck inthe I'll be happy when sort of
mindset and I feel that we missthe little things that are in
front of us, even moments of joy.
(14:05):
I tell parents to sit in amoment of mindset and I feel
that we miss the little thingsthat are in front of us, even
moments of joy.
I tell parents to sit in amoment of joy.
And a moment of joy could beyou just finished cleaning your
kitchen and like, oh yeah,that's a nice kitchen, it's nice
and clean.
Like, sit with it.
We forget that and so we missthose opportunities because
we're still waiting for the whenI get that or when this happens
.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, so and and again, I just want to normalize
that, because it's in oursociety and that sort of thing,
especially if we're achieversand we're go-getters, it's just
like okay, that's just what wedo, right?
You, you have the goalpostshere, you make the goal and then
you just move it farther awayso that you know it, it gives
(14:43):
you drive and that sort of thing, but it also, like you said,
makes you miss out on what'sactually happening around us,
right?
So some of the things that I dois I'll ask myself a question,
and these questions can be alittle bit morbid, but they
really do reframe us, becausethat's exactly what something
like death does, right, reframeus, because that's exactly what
(15:08):
something like death does, right?
It's just a big perspectiveshift for us and it's so tied
with emotions that thecombination of those two really
jolts us and we're like, oh man,okay, maybe let me not think
about like the future and maybesit in the present a little bit.
So one of the things I say isjust ask yourself, what if this
is the last time I get to dosomething or experience
(15:30):
something, right?
So what if this is the lasttime you get to watch your child
eat, right.
How different is thatexperience going to be?
How are you going to savor thatdifferently?
Are you going to be thinkingabout all the things that you
have to do?
You're going to be like, no,I'm watching you eat every
single little thing that comesinto that tiny little mouth of
yours right, or throw the peasto the ground Right or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
It is like chocolate sauce everywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
So just that question can really help center us in
the present moment, because mostof us are so distracted, our
brains are so hyperactive thatit's hard to be in the present
moment because we're alwaysprocessing information and that
sort of thing.
So that's one simple thing tojust ground ourselves in this
(16:21):
moment and try to bring it alittle bit more sensory and see
if that helps us feel like, ohokay, yeah, I feel a little
better about being where I amright now.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So what would be the other two that we can kind of
ask ourselves, because I thinkthese are like the one that you
just mentioned, I think they'rereally important in kind of
reminding us about that momentand like living in that moment.
So what else can you kind ofask yourselves for that?
Or the mindset shift?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So the couple of others that in my head it's kind
of just like bringing death alittle bit closer because it's
just thinking about it that wayand I talked about these kind of
in my TEDx talk.
So basically one would be whatwould I do or what would I think
or how would I feel if I wereon my deathbed?
(17:10):
What would be important to meif I knew that I was dying or if
I knew that this person had sixmonths to live?
You know, because I think a lotof times again, death feels so
far away.
So if we bring it a little bitcloser, it clarifies things for
a lot of people.
And people are like, oh, youknow what, if that person had
(17:34):
six months to live, maybe I'llreach out to them, maybe I'll
reconnect with them, maybe Iwill, maybe we'll just kind of
forgive each other, or somethinglike that.
Because that's what happenswhen people do realize they're
dying, they're like, oh my God,I need to fix this relationship
that I've abandoned for 20 years, and a lot of times at that
point it can be a little late.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, if you don't mind me going a little bit
deeper on that, I know there wasone of your posts that talked
about either you moved closer toyour parents or you see them
more often, and I know thatcould be really complicated for
some people because of therelationship right.
And so they'll say things likewell, I'm not close with my
family, or many parents feellonely, they don't have a lot of
friends and they feel that theyhaven't put enough time into
(18:17):
sort of nurturing therelationships that they have in
their lives or their friendships.
Is this something you've heardabout?
You know, thinking about thosemoments on our deathbed, one of
my grandfathers, when he was onhis deathbed, he said he
regretted working too hard, andnot because of the working too
hard when his kids were young,he didn't get to see them grow
(18:40):
up.
And he said that those were histwo regrets.
And it just makes me think hehad that regret, but he was not
close to them at all, he reallydidn't know them.
Yeah, and so I understand thatthat's what kind of shifted my
life a little bit, because Ididn't have children at that
time and then I had three and Isaid I'm not going to have that
regret, and so I left academiato stay home with the kids.
(19:02):
I took a really dramatic shiftto that, but I didn't want to
have that regret.
So is the connecting withpeople something you hear often
when somebody is under deathbed?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yes, you really nailed that one with that word
connection, right, if you thinkabout all of the regrets that
people say at the end of life.
Some people probably have heardBronnie Ware with her book the
Five Regrets of the Dying, and Isee that all the time.
But if you really boil it down,it's all about connection.
(19:36):
It's either connection to selfI wish I had been more true to
myself, I wish I had, you know,been more authentic, I wish I
hadn't let other people'sjudgment kind of make me not be
myself or it's connection toothers.
I wish I hadn't worked so hard,I wish I'd been there with my
kids more often, I wish I hadn'tlet these relationships,
(19:57):
friendships kind of go sour orjust fade away.
And so when we really boil itdown, it's all about how we're
relating to ourselves and toother people and that's what
everyone really wants and weknow through research and
everything that connection iswhat helps us regulate our
emotions better.
(20:18):
It helps mitigate trauma.
All of these things are sorelated and in our modern day
society it's so easy to beisolated or to feel isolated.
And technology is wonderful andsometimes it makes it harder to
have those real connections.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Right and we get so stuck in the social media.
It's not really social, it'snot allowing us to kind of get
out there and, do you know,speak to people.
And this past summer I took thetime to interview 100 parents
to see like what's going on inparents' lives, and the number
one thing that came out was thatthey felt lonely, that they
didn't feel connected tosomebody, that they didn't feel
(20:58):
that they had a support systemand people to reach out to.
And so this idea of having thatregret later on I love the idea
that you have of this sort ofthought, activity, right, of
putting ourselves a littlecloser to that death and saying
like, what would I change?
What regret would I have?
And if you do feel lonely, Ifeel that we have to take
(21:19):
initiative, right, and say like,well, I don't want to have that
regret.
How can I change things so thatI could, yeah, not have it one
day when I'm dying?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, and I think that's what you do really well
too is that you have thismembership for parents right.
And again back to a couple ofdays ago, I literally was
freaking out when I got my dog.
I understand, and I had atraumatic experience in the past
when I had adopted one.
I was much younger and I was avery tumultuous time in my life
(21:50):
and we know that the body holdson to emotions, right and trauma
, and so I did not expect for meto freak out the way that I did
and I used a lot of tools tohelp emotionally regulate myself
.
And what really got me throughit was connection.
It was talking to other dogowners, it was reading Reddit
(22:11):
posts and forums about peoplewho have gone through similar
things and realizing like, ohokay, I'm not alone, I'm not,
you know, freaking out overnothing, and I think having that
bond with other parents andknowing that it's just part of
this life cycle of being aparent and it's supposed to be
(22:32):
hard and it is really difficult,I think really helps people be
able to work through challengesa little bit easier.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Right, let's talk about that a little bit more.
That was the post that reallybrought me to you and made me
say I need to chat with her.
You said that you wish in your20s, you wish you knew the
importance of recognizing andregulating emotions.
It is the core of what I do aswork, and just hearing you say
that you wish you would have hadthese skills before really
resonated with me.
So what do you mean when yousay that and what led to that?
(23:00):
You wish you would have hadthese skills before really
resonated with me.
So what do you mean when yousay that and what led to that
awareness for you?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
So yeah, and again, I say a lot of things about
things I'd wish I'd known my 20s, but that is literally the
number one thing, because I feellike, had I known that, it
would have saved me so manydifferent heartaches, so much
pain and suffering.
To be honest, the example, whatreally brought that about, was
(23:31):
COVID and the trauma of havingto take care of a huge number of
acutely dying ill people andthe emotions associated with
that for the patients and theirfamilies.
Right, so you know, our, ourlist quadrupled in like a week
and I was like, oh, you know, Isigned up for this because I
(23:54):
wanted to work with sick anddying people.
And then the the universe waslike oh yeah, you want to do
that?
Okay, hold my beer, here's aglobal pandemic for you.
And so my coping mechanisms upuntil then had really been
denial, shoving all my emotionsdown, intellectualization, right
(24:15):
or other what I call unhealthyhabits, which was like shopping,
addiction or other things.
For some people that could beovereating or whatever it is,
and for me I realized it wasproblematic because my emotions
(24:35):
were everywhere.
I couldn't go a day withoutcrying like nine.
I couldn't go a day withoutcrying like nine, 10 times a day
(24:59):
I became suicidal, you know,and luckily again, and I
recommend therapy to everyone,whether you are in that place or
not.
Because she taught me aboutthings like the window of
tolerance for our nervoussystems, right, what a hyper
aroused nervous system lookslike, how to get ourselves calm
when we're anxious,overstimulated, overwhelmed.
(25:20):
She taught me abouthypo-aroused nervous systems,
right, when we're just, we can'tget out of bed and we feel just
so numb and doom and gloom, andhow to get ourselves out of
that into our kind of normalquote unquote window where we're
able to handle the ups anddowns of life.
And through that I got to getmyself back to a point where I'm
(25:45):
like, okay, I feel kind of likemyself, I feel a little bit
more normal compared to the deepdark hole that I was in
previously.
And then after that I got somecoaching, I took other courses
and learned from other people,and that's what got me to see
that, oh, there's more that Ican do, there's possibility here
.
But it's hard to go from deepdark hole to like, oh, I can do
(26:09):
things without gettingyourselves back to quote unquote
, what normal is.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
I want to understand that a little bit more, because
I do think that sometimes,parents or non-parents, it
doesn't matter who but we tendto think like if my life changes
, then I'll be happy, if my lifechanges, then things would be
easier for me and I'd feel lessstress.
But what you kind of alluded toright now is your surrounding
and environment didn't change.
You were still surrounded bythis pandemic and the death that
(26:39):
was around it.
And it wasn't just mindset.
It wasn't about looking at thepositive and I think you've
posted about this because thereare these misconceptions around
positive mindset and gratitudethat we can go into but it
wasn't about that.
It was truly about learning howto cope with those
uncomfortable emotions whichmany of us have not learned.
(27:00):
Our parents, you know, did thebest they could with the tools
that they had.
They were not taught to copewith emotions themselves and
then they passed that on to us.
And so now, as adults, we thinkthat you know suppressing it,
pretending everything is okay or, like you said, the you know
like this, talking to yourselfin the sense like well, this is
hard, okay, but you're still notcoping with it, trying to look
(27:23):
at the positive in a way.
That's not healthy, and justsaying like, oh well, this will
be fine, it'll pass, but you'restill not dealing with it.
And so what do those steps looklike for you?
Because, again, it's not anovernight thing, it's not a one
session, and tomorrow everythingwill be okay.
What sort of things did youhave to start becoming more
aware of, or did you have tostart noticing?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, so I basically had to notice when I was
starting to feel anxious.
What does that look like in mybody?
For me, I start to get a littletight in the sternum, the chest
area.
I noticed that my heart rategets a little fast and I'm not
(28:03):
breathing the way that I shouldbe.
They're very short, shallowbreaths and then I go, okay,
what's happening here?
And so I think that's the firststep for everyone, because
everyone's nervous systemmanifests a little bit
differently in different states.
And so you know, that's thefirst thing is to notice like,
okay, what's happening here, andit's usually from the neck down
(28:25):
, we're so neck up, we're sojust like, okay, up here I'm
thinking or whatever, and weforget that we have a whole body
that is really driving the buswhen it comes to our experiences
.
And so that's the first thing.
And then the second thing is tobe like okay, what can I do to
(28:46):
get myself regulated?
I think of it almost like ifthe brain is going down a
pathway, then it's akin to kindof driving down a highway, and
the more that we do something,think something, the more that
highway becomes bigger andbigger and bigger, because
that's how our brains work right.
(29:07):
And then what we need to do tokind of divert ourselves off of
that if we don't want that tocontinue, is to put up a
roadblock.
And a lot of times that couldbe something like tapping EFT
emotional freedom techniques.
A lot of times that could begetting like tapping EFT
emotional freedom techniques.
A lot of times that could begetting up, going for a walk,
that could be taking a deepbreath, calming yourself down,
(29:29):
therapeutic touch, just kind ofrubbing your shoulders or
whatever feels calming.
So those are a couple of things.
And then also what I had torealize over time like you said,
it doesn't happen overnight wasthat every time I thought I'm
going to be happy when thispandemic is over, I'm going to
be happy when blah, blah, blahis over, I'm going to be happy
(29:51):
when I get that bag that I'vebeen wanting, was that I was
trying to control my externalenvironment, right.
I literally was just like oncethese pieces in my life are the
way that I want them, then Iwill be happy.
And it's like I was kind ofgiving my power away to
(30:15):
something that I couldn't quitecontrol, right, and as a type A
person I'm a, you know, I'm abit of a control freak, that
sort of thing and I think manypeople are.
I realized that the only thingthat I could truly actually
control was myself, my ownemotions, what I thought, how I
(30:36):
felt, how I reacted to things.
And I think it's so importantfor parents to realize that too,
because you have this beingthat you can't control right, no
matter how hard you try.
You can influence them, you canteach them, you can try to
correct them, but we can'tcontrol anything.
(30:57):
That's not us.
And so once I had thatrealization, I was like, oh okay
, well then, if I can't actuallycontrol that, then I'm going to
redirect what I can control.
And that was so freeing and itmade me feel so powerful.
And I talked to clients,patients, and teach them that
(31:18):
they're like oh my God, this isamazing.
Like I wish I'd known thisearlier.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I agree.
I really do think that weshould all have known this
earlier.
It should be a course you knowin high school at some point,
because it would help many of uslearn how to cope with very
difficult emotions.
We wouldn't go towards theseunhealthy coping mechanisms
which so many parents still haveand struggle with.
We do it because there'snothing else that we can do.
We don't know.
We don't know how to sit withthe emotion, and we hear it all
(31:45):
the time.
But what does it mean to sitwith the emotion?
We don't know.
It's hard, many of us don'tknow what that is, and so I I
appreciate that you went throughthat journey and that you saw
the impact of that.
You know.
One thing that kind of comes tomind is you spoke about
understanding our body right,and that it's in our body and
it's below our heads.
It makes sense to me, and Ithink that one thing I try to
(32:08):
talk to parents about is yournervous system, regulation and
dysregulation right.
I feel that you've approachedthis in a way that makes so much
sense.
You've talked about rest versusrecharge, and I think that it's
important for us to talk aboutthat, because we're stuck on
this sort of autopilot function.
Sometimes in society it's likewake up, go to work, come back,
(32:30):
get things done at home, withkids or without you.
Come, you leave, you finish,you go to bed, wake up.
Next day starts.
It's sort of this groundhog dayand we don't stop and pause.
And if we were to actually bemore connected to ourselves, we
would notice that we need torest or recharge.
So what does that mean to you?
Why did you want to distinguishbetween both?
I always wonder where the seedcame, the idea.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, I have ADHD and I think part of it was just
like my brain was going andmaking metaphors out of.
You can give me any metaphor.
I can create a life lesson outof it for you.
So you know the I think thereal that you were referring to
was that I was alluding to thefact that I wish I'd known the
difference between rest andrelaxation, recharging,
(33:17):
restoration when I was younger.
And the metaphor that I madewas like, if you think about the
energy that you have to dodaily things or to live as the
level of water in a bathtub,right, and then you know, if you
want to replenish the energywith the level of water in a
(33:38):
bathtub, you've either got to dotwo things.
One is you got to stop thewater from leaving, which
usually means plug the drain,right?
So if you plug the drain, thatis the equivalent of resting.
That is just chilling, netflix,staying on the couch all
weekend.
You know just kind of beinglike I'm not expending energy,
(33:58):
I'm not going to work, I'm notwhatever it is.
And then the issue is is that alot of people think that that
is the same as restoring ourenergy?
We think that that rest,plugging the drain is going to
add more water to the bathtubwhen it's really not.
It's literally just preventingthe water or the energy from
(34:19):
leaving.
And so then it's like, okay,what do we need to do to add
more water to the bathtub, tofill our cup in a sense?
And so that could be things.
That again.
Going back to connection whathelps you feel more connected to
yourself?
For some people it's journaling, right?
For some people it's meditation.
For some people, people it'sjournaling, right?
(34:41):
For some people it's meditation.
For some people it's going fora walk.
Whatever it is.
For some people it's creatingart, connecting with your
friends.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe something that expends a lot
of energy, but it always getsdown to connection to either
self or others.
And so then it's like, okay,what can we do to refill our
(35:04):
bathtub water, our energy levels?
And once I realized that it wasso mind-blowing, because in
hospice and palliative care wetalk about the fact that
Self-care is the best way thatwe treat our patients, because
our work is so heavy and if wecan't pour from an overflowing
(35:25):
cup, if we're not okay ourselves, our patients aren't getting
the treatment and the care thatthey deserve.
Their families are not gettingthe compassion and the empathy
that they really need, and sothat was something that had
never really been taught to mein other disciplines of medicine
.
But because of the work withthe dying, it's so important,
(35:47):
and that's why I'm such a bigfan of emotional regulation, of
tending to our own well-being,because when you're caring for
another being, if you don't haveit together, how can you expect
to really properly care forthis being to the highest level,
right?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
What you're talking about kind of makes me think of
different careers, that peopleare nurturing others and again,
they don't take the time here.
I'm based in Montreal andteachers here are struggling so
much.
We've never seen this rate ofburnout in teachers before.
We are missing teachers to thepoint that we're getting young
students that haven't done anytraining to come teach because
(36:30):
of that.
And when I give well-beingworkshops in schools and with
teachers, they just talk aboutnot being able to fill that cup,
not knowing how, not havingbeen taught how, not knowing to
recognize it and not knowingwhat to do with that.
So it's a really big struggle.
You know anybody who's aclinician and a parent we are
all giving to our kids, and whatyou just said is just so
(36:53):
powerful because, regardless ofthe career you might have or
being a parent, if you don'tnurture yourself first, I know
again, it's one of those cliches, right, with the mask and the
on the plane, and I get that.
I get that it sounds like acliche, but it's true If you
don't do that, you in a qualityformat, right, because I think
that the biggest problem andthis is why I wanted to bring up
(37:15):
that bath analogy that you had.
I do think that people justplug and they say like, okay,
I'm not doing anything thisweekend.
They come out of those weekendsor even just going out for
dinner, but they're notmindfully doing it in a way
that's filling up the bathtub,right.
They're just kind of likeplugging it and saying like I'm
not doing anything.
And then they say why don't Ifeel great, why don't I feel
(37:38):
recharged?
I'm starting Monday feeling thesame way I did Friday, but I
didn't do anything, and now Ihave the guilt that I didn't
clean my house, and now I havethe guilt of other things.
And so this is the conversationthat I hear from parents.
But I think it's because wehaven't really understood what
the difference is and that weneed to come back to that and
understand what fills our cup.
(37:58):
The problem I think that someparents have is they don't know
anymore what fills their cup.
Right, they've lost connection,they're out of, we're not
attuned anymore to our needs.
We have this misconception thatonce we have a child, our needs
don't matter anymore, and ifyou were to do that in your work
, you would struggle.
As you said, the wellbeing partis so important.
(38:18):
So what has I mean when Iexperienced palliative care
through my grandfather.
There was the most beautiful,special people I've ever met in
my life that I still remembertheir faces and this is like 10
years ago.
It's just people who attendedto his needs so beautifully that
I was in awe, and so I am inawe of the work that you do.
(38:41):
What does self-care look likefor somebody doing your work?
It's not just taking a break,right.
What does filling that cup looklike?
Speaker 2 (38:50):
And you've mentioned so many good things just now
because, in response to thatreel, I had a lot of people be
like I don't know what restoresme anymore.
I literally don't know.
I believe it and it makes somuch sense because, like you
said, we're all neck up, we'renot attuned to our bodies
anymore, and so one of thethings that I say to people is
(39:11):
like okay, well, start with whatdid you love as a kid?
Go back to that, because whenwe're young our brainwaves are
very different than when we'reolder.
So our brain waves from zero totwo are like delta waves, when
we're in deep sleep,predominantly two to seven.
Theta, light sleep, seven to 12, kind of alpha brain waves,
(39:34):
where we're a little bit more,you know, chill.
And then 12 and up is the brainwaves that we're in now, right,
beta, we're thinking, or, youknow, or if we're a little bit
more chill, and then 12 and upis the brainwaves that we're in
now, right, beta, we're thinking.
Or if we're really overthinkingand anxious, that could be like
much higher levels of beta whenit comes to what we did as kids
.
That is all unconsciousprogramming.
Our brains are 2% of our bodymass but require 20% of our
(39:59):
oxygen consumption.
So the autopilot that we do,it's just our brains conserving
energy, because it's just likeit's easier to do this than to
really be present.
And so if you think about itthat way, then you're like, oh,
it's just a supercomputerexecuting a program.
We can rewrite programs, we can, you know, code things
(40:21):
differently, and that is reallywhat all of these things are.
It's just kind of interruptingwhat program is already running.
And so, okay, go back to whatyou did as a kid.
What could be fun, or whatwould you do if you weren't
worried about someone else'sjudgment or expectations of you?
That, I think, is a hugebarrier, because I think
(40:43):
everyone knows, when I work withclients, I'm like you already
have the answers, we just needto dig it out of you a little
bit, right?
And so I would start with thosetwo questions.
And then self-care looksdifferent for everyone.
For me, it literally is justlike okay, what do I need to do
to feel better in this moment?
(41:03):
Or how do I need to decompressfrom this day?
Sometimes I need to take areally long cry.
Right During COVID, we haddifferent levels of crying to
signify to my colleagues and Ihow stressed we were.
So if you're just like aregular cry, okay, it's normal.
If it was a shower cry, it'slike, all right, that was a bad
day.
(41:23):
If you can't even stand in theshower, if it was like a
kneeling or sitting shower cry,we're like, okay, let's talk
about it.
I mean, we would talk about itanyway, but still so.
Sometimes we all need thatemotional release, and I think
not enough of us are tuned toour own emotions to be like, oh,
maybe this energy, thisstuckness has to go somewhere.
(41:46):
And when we shove it down anddeny it, it doesn't go anywhere.
It just gets stuck in our bodyand it comes out at inopportune
times.
We yell at a spouse, we freakout on our kids right.
We become irritable and we'relike oh no, that's not what I
(42:08):
wanted to do and that persondidn't deserve that.
But that's what happens if Idon't know what's going on in my
own body.
And so that's why I always comeback to emotional regulation.
Emotional regulation because itaffects everyone around you,
and so that's why it's so, soimportant for parents, for
anyone, whether you have a childor not.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
I'm really happy that you brought up the sort of the
childhood piece, because I dothink that's a great question to
start with, and we forget evenjust being outdoors.
Maybe you don't take enoughtime to be outdoors and you
think about your childhood andyou're like I was outdoors all
the time.
I loved being outdoors.
Sometimes some parents say thatthey happen to start coloring
(42:47):
with their kid and they just doit one day, and when they're
doing it, when they're coloring,they're like, oh my gosh, this
is amazing.
I forgot how fun coloring was.
And then I've seen it with myhusband too.
We'll print out some stuff forthe kids, like these superhero
pictures, and then he grabs oneand he's like, oh yeah, I'm
going to color this.
And he's like look at how nicemy drawing is.
And we have a lot of fun withthat.
(43:08):
So I think that there areaspects of our childhood and
again, our kids are in front ofus.
We're busy, sometimes yellingat them all day, it feels like,
and if we could just step backand learn from them.
They are finding ways to bringjoy and happiness.
But think about your ownchildhood, right.
Use that as a starter, and Ithink it's a beautiful way to
begin to realize or come back towhat makes you feel joy and
(43:31):
what fills your cup.
I'm excited to kind of do thisexperiment on myself as well, to
see what comes out of that.
I want to come back to a momentof that gratitude and mindset
again, because I think thatsometimes we get stuck in these
moments of I just need to begrateful.
Everything is going wrongaround me, but I'm going to say
that I'm grateful for somethingand it'll pass.
(43:52):
And whatever it is, thesepositive aspects, these twists
that I don't think arenecessarily supporting our
wellbeing You've mentioned thisas well.
What has been your experience,I'm assuming, especially with
dealing with death and familymembers?
Is there something that you sawthat made you realize like I
don't think we're going aboutthis the right way?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yeah.
So I love talking about thistopic because I did it myself,
right?
So when I was in the midst ofmy trauma and everything that
was happening, I would be like,okay, I should be grateful for
things.
But then I would say thingslike, okay, I'm grateful I'm
alive, which was true, but I wasusing that almost to gaslight
(44:34):
myself into not feeling thediscomfort of what was actually
happening.
And so I want to make thedistinction that I love
gratitude.
Gratitude is amazing.
Please continue to use it, andit should be used at certain
times.
So if you're feeling okay,you're feeling normal, and you
want to feel gratitude and youwant to think about that and it
(44:57):
helps you get to an even betterplace, wonderful, right.
And gratitude can be used whenwe're feeling really crummy and
that sort of thing, and it canhelp shift our perspective.
What I don't want people to relyon is when they're feeling
really challenged, they'refeeling really emotional,
they're feeling reallyoverwhelmed, anxious, freaking
(45:17):
out, whatever, and then to saylike, okay, well, you know
that's happening, but I'mgrateful that I have, you know,
my health and my life, and thatsort of thing.
The again metaphor that I useis if someone comes up to you
and they chop your arm off rightand you're bleeding and your
(45:38):
arm is just, you know, on theground, whatever.
Are you going to be like oh,you know, I'm so grateful that I
have another arm.
It sounds so ridiculous, right?
You're bleeding out and you'relike oh, you know, I'm like I
still have three limbs, it'sfine, I'm going to be calling
you for metaphors and I have abad day.
I'm ready, I'm ready, but itsounds so ridiculous and it's
(46:02):
meant to be.
But that's what we're doing toourselves, when we're not
addressing what's actuallyhappening and just saying like,
okay, I'm grateful for this.
I've had clients who are justtelling me all these things, the
terrible experiences, and thenthey just pause and go.
But you know, I'm stillgrateful.
I'm like let's address howyou're feeling first.
(46:23):
We can get to the gratitude.
Well, that'll always be there.
But let's calm you down firstand then do that, because
that'll be the extra cherry ontop, because then, if you just
go straight to gratitude, it'salmost like you're just being
like oh, I'm disregarding that.
It's toxic positivity, in asense.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, exactly, and that's why I thought it was so
important to talk about thispart, because I do think it's a
way of us not dealing withwhat's happening, and we have so
many great ways to do that as asociety.
We just don't deal with theemotions and, like you said
before, it piles up.
This is not just disappearingIf we ignore something that is
bothering us.
If we ignore that uncomfortableemotion.
(47:05):
It's not going away.
It's waiting for that, like yousaid, that opportune time to
come back out, and we cannotcontinue to do that.
And so we have to, as a society, start addressing those
uncomfortable emotions.
But many of us are just notready for it.
Many of us are not not readyfor it, but don't have the
skills and tools yet because wehaven't learned that which makes
(47:25):
it really hard, which makes iteasier to suppress or easier to
use unhealthy coping mechanisms.
You know there are so many thatparents use and talk to me
about, even if it's just likescrolling right, like I don't
want to deal with my marriageright now and so the kids are
screaming and so I'm going toscroll on my phone and ignore.
I don't want to have aconversation or an argument with
my partner or parents saying,like I need that glass of wine,
(47:48):
that is my joy.
So how do we get out?
We have to get out of thosethings as a society, but that
means we have to deal with theuncomfortable emotions, which is
hard yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
And it's hard because , too, so many of these coping
mechanisms if we think about thebrain as a supercomputer were
developed in childhood, when wedidn't have the kind of frontal
cortex maturity and the growth,and so if those things are
happening in childhood I waslistening to your episode with
Dr Bruce Perry and I love thatbook.
(48:20):
What Happened to you?
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Oh my God, life-changing.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
And so if those things are happening to us, I'll
give you an example.
When I was a kid, I've alwaysbeen this way.
Anytime I had an emotion,whether it was joy, frustration,
fear, panic, pain, I'd cry,didn't matter.
And my dad, being kind of youknow, stern immigrant Chinese
dad, be like stop crying.
(48:49):
What's wrong with you?
You're always crying, stop it.
And so, for me, I learned froma young age that expressing my
emotions was not desirable to mycaretakers, the people who were
supposed to care for me, andthat sort of thing.
(49:19):
And then you can see, as I gotolder, that of course, my coping
mechanism was to own childhood.
You'll probably see what comesup and how it's linked to how
you're dealing with, or notdealing with, dissociating from,
separating yourself from theuncomfortable emotions.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Uncomfortable emotions and culture definitely
plays a part in that.
There are so many people thatI've spoken with that say it
wasn't part of it.
They never saw their fatherexpress any emotions, even their
moms, who would just beuncomfortable with it.
They were very nurturing moms,but when it came to those
emotions, those uncomfortableemotions, it was like just stop
it, just don't be happy.
Be happy with what you have,stop being sad or stop being mad
.
And so I know that that'ssomething that many of our
(50:02):
listeners can relate to, giventhe cultural aspect of that.
So I appreciate that you sharedthat.
I'm struggling so much to stopthis because I'm really having a
good conversation with you.
I truly appreciate you and yourwork.
What would you say to kind ofsum everything up?
You know, given the experiencesyou've had, the conversations
you've had, what are things weshould be doing more or less of?
(50:23):
You know, in general that wouldnurture our well-being and come
from the learnings andconversations you've had with
the dying, hmm, so, the firstthing I would say is really just
bringing awareness to what youand your body is doing right.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
So and sometimes that can be really difficult and
basically just being like, okay,what is happening right now?
Just to step away.
Bring your awareness to yourbody.
Figure out something that inthe moment so when we're talking
about emotions, if we reallyactually address the emotion in
the moment, it's kind of gone inless than a couple minutes.
(51:04):
If we actually do it in themoment there have been studies
on this but if we let it fester,that's when it becomes
problematic, maladaptive and itspirals.
That's just how our brains work.
So, noticing that and coming upwith what works for you in terms
of regulating yourself Is itdeep breaths, is it nature, is
(51:28):
it connection, whatever it is,find what works for you.
And if you don't know, thentalk to somebody or hire a
therapist, a coach, a counselor,whatever it is that can help
you if you're struggling tofigure that out for yourself.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is connection right.
(51:49):
Find your tribe.
Find people with similarinterests who are going through
similar life cycles that you are.
We all think that whatever we'redealing with, whatever
challenge we have, is.
We're the only person that'sever gone through it in the
history of the world.
Meanwhile, there's 8 billionpeople in the world and I
guarantee you someone knowsexactly what you're going
(52:12):
through, and so share your ownstories.
You know, be part of membershipcommunities.
Be part of you know, your localchapter, of whatever it is
that's important to you.
That's what's going to helppeople feel more connected to
themselves, to each other, andalso help them be better parents
(52:34):
, better caretakers, betterspouses, better partners,
children that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Where can we learn more from?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
you.
So I'm pretty active onInstagram.
My handle is drdrlouiecathysang.
I'll add that in the show notesand then, if anyone is
interested, I've got kind oflike this free video that I
share three top somatictechniques that are really easy
to do that you can use in themoment when you're feeling
(53:05):
anxious, overwhelmed, to justkind of bring that nervous
system down a little bit.
Calm yourself down so that youcan think clearly and figure out
what your next steps are.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Thank you for sharing that, and I know somebody who's
listening is probably askinghow did Sydney not ask questions
about hypnosis?
Because I just feel that thatwould be an entire conversation
on its own, but just a very peak, a small peek into that.
Is this something you do withpatients, with clients that you
work with?
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I'm just curious started doing it in the hospital
because it works so well and Ihave so many patients who are in
pain and have anxiety andsometimes they have medication
side effects.
Then they can't tolerate abenzo or anything that'll help
them calm down or they getconfused on pain meds.
(53:53):
So I've done it with them and Ido it with clients over Zoom.
But hypnosis, very quickly, isjust like you know how we talked
about the brainwaves when we'reyounger.
Hypnosis helps people, justlike deep meditation, get into
those lower brainwave states andthat just blurs the boundary
between our unconscious mindswhich probably is 95% of our
(54:16):
awareness and our consciousminds and it helps us access
things that have been repressed,things that started when we
were in childhood and we didn'treally notice.
And it just is the fastest waythat I experienced change in my
own body for myself, because wehad to practice on each other
(54:38):
and I was like this is amazingfor myself, because we had to
practice on each other and I waslike this is amazing what?
And so I was just like, allright, well then, I'm going to
give it to everyone.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
I've got to share this.
So it's funny the idea of that.
You mentioned meditation.
I had the idea that's in movieswhere you're like you make
somebody do something else, likeyou control their mind.
But it's not that.
It's coming to that.
I'm saying this to kind ofbring it like make it in the
funny end, but it's truly aboutthat meditative state, right,
that you're bringing them into.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
Yeah, that's what we see in the movies select
outliers, people who are reallyreally really super suggestible.
They're very good at figuringout who those people are, and so
when you see them go on stageand be like quack, like a duck,
and they're making a fool out ofthemselves, it scares people
(55:29):
into feeling like, oh, I'm goingto lose control.
You never lose control.
It's just that those people arevery suggestible and that's all
it is.
Most people are kind of in themiddle of suggestibility and
it's really just being superrelaxed and that's about it.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
I could understand why your feeling was like
everybody needs this.
Thank you again for being hereand for sharing everything.
I will put the links to all ofyour ways to reach you and your
freebie in the show notes, and Iappreciate that you're here
today, so thanks again.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for all the work thatyou're doing for parents and
their families.
It is so important, so thankyou.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation as much as I did
with Dr Kathy Zhang.
If you don't have a notebook, Iencourage you to listen to this
podcast as you are walking ordoing something, so that it's
relaxing.
But take some notes, take sometime to reflect on something
that marked you, take some timeto write down one little thought
(56:28):
that crossed your mind whileyou were listening and then
build on that through theReflective Parenting Podcast and
the content that we share hereat Curious Neuron, whether it's
a blog post or social media postor the newsletter that I send
out every single week.
Take a moment to do that,because that's how you will see
growth and change in behaviorand lowering of your stress and
feelings of overwhelm andbuilding of your confidence as
(56:49):
well, and so I hope that you cansee that growth with us.
Thank you for listening.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast and that you
leave a rating and review.
I will see you next Monday.
Bye.
Hello, dear friend, welcome to the Reflective Parent
Podcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI am your host.
If you are a parent that istruly struggling with feeling
like you, have the skills toparent your child, or feeling
overwhelmed and stressed becauseyou can't cope with your
emotions and never reallylearned how to regulate your
emotions, then you are at theright place.
I am a mom of three fromMontreal, canada, and I have a
(00:22):
PhD in neuroscience.
I am the founder and CEO ofCurious Neuron, and the goal of
everything that we do here is tohelp you learn how to regulate
your emotions.
That is my own specialty interms of teaching you how to
regulate the self-awarenesspiece and, more importantly, how
to cope with your stress, howto manage the stress and
emotions that come withparenting.
(00:44):
And, more importantly, thereason why we recently changed
the name of this podcast toReflective Parenting is because
of the model that we've beencreating inside Curious Neuron,
where lots of parents that wespeak with are trying their best
to follow positive parenting,but it's not working, and so I
think that the alternative tothis there's nothing wrong with
positive parenting, but I thinkthat we don't have the skills.
(01:07):
We have not learned how to copewith our emotions, yet we're
being told to stay calm andsupport our child through their
own emotions, and so it createsa lot of stress and overwhelm
for a parent, and so if you aresomebody that struggles with
that, then you are at the rightplace.
I'm here to help you learn howto regulate your emotions, and
we touch on all aspects ofwellbeing, because all of these
(01:31):
aspects will support, nurture orimpact or influence in a
negative way your capacity todeal with emotions and stress,
and so today we are taking adifferent angle.
It's maybe a darker side forsome.
Maybe talking about death isuncomfortable, but I think that
we need to kind of do thisthought activity a little bit
and work on this together,because my guest today had such
(01:56):
a positive outlook on life, eventhough she works with people
who are dying, and I thoughtthat it would be an interesting
twist to what we bring here atCurious Neuron as well as this
podcast.
So, before we begin, I'd like tothank the Tannenbaum Open
Science Institute, as well asthe McConnell Foundation, for
supporting the Curious Neuronthe switch has.
(02:18):
It's too fresh for supportingthe Reflective Parenting Podcast
, which used to be called theCurious Neuron Podcast, but I am
so grateful for these twoorganizations as I am grateful
for you.
The downloads, number ofdownloads and weekly downloads
have been increasing, so I hopethat you are sharing this
podcast with many of yourfriends and family members and
(02:38):
coworkers.
I know that when I sent out anemail last week saying that the
title of the email was Goodbye,curious Neuron Podcast, I got a
few emails saying what are youdoing?
Don't stop it.
But you had to click and readthe email to show that I was
saying goodbye to the CuriousNeuron Podcast, but we were
saying hello to ReflectiveParenting Podcast, which is the
(02:58):
same podcast I'm not changing.
However, if we do not continueto grow this podcast, then the
funding will stop it's.
I don't say this as a threat.
I'm saying this because it'sthe reality of it, and so please
, if you have not done so yet,rate the podcast on spotify or
on apple podcasts.
And if you want a freebie andyou're doing this and you want
(03:18):
to leave a review as well, sendme an email at info at curious
neuron dot com.
I will send you MeltdownMountain, which is our most
popular PDF on our website.
You can get the link to all ofthat down below if you would
like, but I would also like toinvite you to follow us on
Instagram, if you are there, atcurious underscore neuron, as
(03:38):
well, as you can follow us atReflective Parenting Podcast.
You can follow us at ReflectiveParenting Podcast, and if
you're somebody listening tothis podcast and you truly
struggle with figuring out whyyou are easily triggered or you
go from zero to 100 with yourchild, or that you just feel so
overwhelmed with trying toimplement positive parenting,
feeling like you're keeping youryou know, staying calm and cool
(04:02):
collected, but your child isn'treally responding well to that
and you're having trouble withdiscipline, then maybe you'd
like to join the ReflectiveParenting Club.
What we do there is I meet withyou every single week.
We are a small group of parentsthat meet.
There's, you know, lots ofpeople that are in the club, but
not everybody joins the weeklycalls, because there are people
from around the world, and so ifyou are somebody that wants to
(04:25):
get support, we have a course.
But, more importantly, I meetwith you every week because I
know that it's not easy and acourse does not suffice.
You need somebody to speak with.
You need to say, hey, this iswhat I did last week, or this is
what I had trouble with.
You need somebody to kind ofbounce that off of, to get, um,
uh, to help you gain, I guess, anew perspective or see
(04:46):
something differently, and sothat's why it didn't feel right
to just put out a course.
I needed to show up every weekand be there with you as you are
working through our programthat covers the four domains of
emotional intelligence, allbacked by science, because
everything here at CuriousNeuron, including this podcast,
is backed by science.
All right, let's move on to ourguest.
I'm really excited to sharethis conversation with you.
(05:08):
Dr Kathy Zhang is somebody thatI came across on social media
and dug into her work.
She is a palliative carephysician and the work that she
does is not easy.
But, more importantly, I feltthat through her content that
she was putting out there there,that we had a lot to learn from
her, specifically around restand restoration, which she's
(05:28):
going to talk about in ourconversation.
I just feel that many of us sitback and say I'm doing
absolutely nothing this weekend,and then Monday comes around
and we still feel tired andexhausted and, like we didn't do
anything that helped us, youknow, regain some of that energy
.
So she has an amazing analogyaround that.
More importantly, I know thatmany of us are struggling right
(05:49):
now, and I think that thisthought activity of picturing
the end allows us to come backinto the present and say, hey,
these are things I need tochange before the end comes, and
it's not to be morbid or dark,but I do think that there's
space for us to have thesethought activities, and so I
personally really enjoyed myconversation with her.
(06:10):
When I came up the stairsbecause I recorded my basement
my husband was like you're,you're, you're.
You have this big smile on yourface and he knew who I was
talking with.
And he's like do you have a newperspective on life?
And he was saying it as a joke,but my response was yeah, I do.
I just felt that theconversation I had with her gave
me a new lens to look atcertain things from, and I hope
that you get the same feeling atthe end of this conversation.
(06:31):
So, without letting you waitany longer, please enjoy my
conversation with Dr Kathy Zhang.
Hello everyone, welcome back tothe Curious Neuron Podcast.
And, as promised in my intro,here I am with Dr Kathy Zhang.
Welcome to the Curious NeuronPodcast Hi, how are you?
Thank you for having me.
It's a pleasure and I'm reallyexcited about this conversation
because you're bringing in anangle that I've never brought in
(06:53):
before, and so your work isinteresting, I think, to many of
us, and also scary to many ofus, and we wonder, like, how
heavy is that?
And so can you.
I'm always interested to knowhow people ended up where they
are today.
What was your path that broughtyou to the work you do today?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Oh, such a good question so I'll try to keep it
short.
I am an only child daughter ofChinese immigrants, and growing
up the pinnacle of success inAmerica was to become a doctor.
So I was like, okay, going togo do that.
I did that, trained in internalmedicine, worked for four years
as what we call a hospitalistsomeone who cares for people who
(07:31):
are sick enough to be admittedto the hospital Loved it and
then realized at some point thatit wasn't providing the kind of
meaning that I really wantedand I wasn't having the kind of
interactions I really wanted.
At some point I felt like it waslike a revolving door of
patch-up jobs and I wasn'tgetting deeper.
So I went back into trainingfor hospice and palliative care
(07:53):
and now I do that, which means Itake care of sick and or dying
people in the hospital.
And along that way, when Ifirst got into hospice and
palliative care, no-transcript,no intent on being a coach or a
(08:37):
therapist I'm not a therapistbut a coach or a hypnotist and
now I'm just sharing what I knowto help people be able to live
a little bit easier amongst theday to day.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's an interesting journey that brought you to this
, and a hard one, right Withhardship, and that's what kind
of guided you to where you aretoday.
It's really interesting interms of you know death because
as a parent, I remember aftergiving birth to my firstborn,
the concept of death became moreapparent to me for some reason
(09:09):
after the birth.
My grandfather had passed awaya few months before that and I
had experienced for the firsttime, witnessed death.
I had my hand on his chest whenit happened, but that wasn't.
It didn't make me sad aboutdeath, it made me realize that
that was part of life.
But then witnessing't make mesad about death.
It made me realize that thatwas part of life.
But then witnessing life mademe sad about death.
It was this really weird battlethat I had in the postpartum
(09:31):
phase or interesting battle, Iguess, in my mind of the sadness
but many parents that I speakwith feel the same way in the
sense that this new life bringsup this fear of death.
What has been now that you arein this field and you've been
for a while?
Has it changed your perception,or maybe it's the same as
(09:51):
before?
What is your sort of vision onthat in terms of death?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting, the duality of
it, because cognitively, I thinkwe're all aware that we're all
not going to make it out right,that we're all going to die at
some point.
But just the, I think, thedissociation between like okay,
that's in the future sometime,and then when you have some big
life change, like having a childright, I just adopted a dog a
(10:19):
few days ago and I know it's notlike the same thing at all and
it was like, oh, I'm responsiblefor this life, this being yes,
exactly, right, yeah.
And the associated emotions andthe anxiety that goes along with
that can be really jarring tosomeone's nervous system.
I'll say that being arounddeath so often now has made me
(10:43):
appreciate life just reallybland things.
But two also is that I don'tthink I think most people, if
they're lucky, will probablyhave a handful of experiences
with death in their immediatefamily or friends or that sort
of thing.
But when you do the work everysingle day, you're like everyone
dies every single day, everyminute of every day.
(11:05):
It just desensitizes you to thefear of it and normalizes it in
a way, not saying that it's nottragic or going to have a lot
of negative emotions, becausewith death there's also so much
love and grief that comes withit, but it just makes it like,
(11:25):
oh, it just happens to everyoneand it's a little bit easier to
handle, a little bit Sure.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I get that you mentioned being desensitized, so
I guess, yes, of course you'rearound it, but it seems to be
also that it kind of brings yourawareness a little bit higher
in terms of life.
Right, what are some thingsthat you've changed in your life
, given the experiences thatyou've had with people who are
(11:54):
dying?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah.
So one thing is that, likeevery morning that I wake up,
I'm like, oh, I woke up.
Today.
That I wake up, I'm like, oh, Iwoke up today.
It sounds really silly, butwhen you see as much as I do
with people who are much youngerI'm in my 30s but people who
(12:16):
are teens in their 20s, peoplewho are my age, people who are
much older, who just are walking, they're fine one day and
something happens right, theyget hit by a bus, they have an
accident, or they just getdiagnosed with some terrible
disease.
And I'm here just being like, ohokay, I woke up today, check
(12:37):
okay, body's okay, I'm stillbreathing, I'm still walking, I
have a home, all these thingsand it just makes you really
grateful for the little things.
And it sounds so cliche, and Iknow it does, and from
experience from people who have,let's say, had near death
experiences, they're just like,oh my God, I see life so
(12:58):
differently.
You know, I try to make a pointto tell my husband or people
that I love, that I care aboutthem, and tell them to their
face while they're still alive,instead of saving it for, let's
say, their eulogy, or you know aspecial occasion, because you
know every day is a specialoccasion.
(13:19):
if you're like, oh man, I couldhave been dead, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
It's true, you're like, oh man, I could have been
dead.
It's true.
I find, when it comes tohappiness and wellbeing, this is
something that I focus on somuch with parents here at
Curious Neuron, and sometimes weget stuck in this sort of cycle
of I'll be happy when I getthat home, I'll be happy when I
can bring my family on this trip, or whatever it is, and then we
get stuck in that like livingin that future, possible future.
(13:44):
You talked about gratitude andjust waking up and saying like,
whew, okay, thank you, whateverit is, I'm just happy to be here
in that gratitude.
What are some changes that wecould make?
Because many people are stuck inthe I'll be happy when sort of
mindset and I feel that we missthe little things that are in
front of us, even moments of joy.
(14:05):
I tell parents to sit in amoment of mindset and I feel
that we miss the little thingsthat are in front of us, even
moments of joy.
I tell parents to sit in amoment of joy.
And a moment of joy could beyou just finished cleaning your
kitchen and like, oh yeah,that's a nice kitchen, it's nice
and clean.
Like, sit with it.
We forget that and so we missthose opportunities because
we're still waiting for the whenI get that or when this happens
.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yeah, so and and again, I just want to normalize
that, because it's in oursociety and that sort of thing,
especially if we're achieversand we're go-getters, it's just
like okay, that's just what wedo, right?
You, you have the goalpostshere, you make the goal and then
you just move it farther awayso that you know it, it gives
(14:43):
you drive and that sort of thing, but it also, like you said,
makes you miss out on what'sactually happening around us,
right?
So some of the things that I dois I'll ask myself a question,
and these questions can be alittle bit morbid, but they
really do reframe us, becausethat's exactly what something
like death does, right, reframeus, because that's exactly what
(15:08):
something like death does, right?
It's just a big perspectiveshift for us and it's so tied
with emotions that thecombination of those two really
jolts us and we're like, oh man,okay, maybe let me not think
about like the future and maybesit in the present a little bit.
So one of the things I say isjust ask yourself, what if this
is the last time I get to dosomething or experience
(15:30):
something, right?
So what if this is the lasttime you get to watch your child
eat, right.
How different is thatexperience going to be?
How are you going to savor thatdifferently?
Are you going to be thinkingabout all the things that you
have to do?
You're going to be like, no,I'm watching you eat every
single little thing that comesinto that tiny little mouth of
yours right, or throw the peasto the ground Right or whatever.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
It is like chocolate sauce everywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
So just that question can really help center us in
the present moment, because mostof us are so distracted, our
brains are so hyperactive thatit's hard to be in the present
moment because we're alwaysprocessing information and that
sort of thing.
So that's one simple thing tojust ground ourselves in this
(16:21):
moment and try to bring it alittle bit more sensory and see
if that helps us feel like, ohokay, yeah, I feel a little
better about being where I amright now.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So what would be the other two that we can kind of
ask ourselves, because I thinkthese are like the one that you
just mentioned, I think they'rereally important in kind of
reminding us about that momentand like living in that moment.
So what else can you kind ofask yourselves for that?
Or the mindset shift?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So the couple of others that in my head it's kind
of just like bringing death alittle bit closer because it's
just thinking about it that wayand I talked about these kind of
in my TEDx talk.
So basically one would be whatwould I do or what would I think
or how would I feel if I wereon my deathbed?
(17:10):
What would be important to meif I knew that I was dying or if
I knew that this person had sixmonths to live?
You know, because I think a lotof times again, death feels so
far away.
So if we bring it a little bitcloser, it clarifies things for
a lot of people.
And people are like, oh, youknow what, if that person had
(17:34):
six months to live, maybe I'llreach out to them, maybe I'll
reconnect with them, maybe Iwill, maybe we'll just kind of
forgive each other, or somethinglike that.
Because that's what happenswhen people do realize they're
dying, they're like, oh my God,I need to fix this relationship
that I've abandoned for 20 years, and a lot of times at that
point it can be a little late.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, if you don't mind me going a little bit
deeper on that, I know there wasone of your posts that talked
about either you moved closer toyour parents or you see them
more often, and I know thatcould be really complicated for
some people because of therelationship right.
And so they'll say things likewell, I'm not close with my
family, or many parents feellonely, they don't have a lot of
friends and they feel that theyhaven't put enough time into
(18:17):
sort of nurturing therelationships that they have in
their lives or their friendships.
Is this something you've heardabout?
You know, thinking about thosemoments on our deathbed, one of
my grandfathers, when he was onhis deathbed, he said he
regretted working too hard, andnot because of the working too
hard when his kids were young,he didn't get to see them grow
(18:40):
up.
And he said that those were histwo regrets.
And it just makes me think hehad that regret, but he was not
close to them at all, he reallydidn't know them.
Yeah, and so I understand thatthat's what kind of shifted my
life a little bit, because Ididn't have children at that
time and then I had three and Isaid I'm not going to have that
regret, and so I left academiato stay home with the kids.
(19:02):
I took a really dramatic shiftto that, but I didn't want to
have that regret.
So is the connecting withpeople something you hear often
when somebody is under deathbed?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yes, you really nailed that one with that word
connection, right, if you thinkabout all of the regrets that
people say at the end of life.
Some people probably have heardBronnie Ware with her book the
Five Regrets of the Dying, and Isee that all the time.
But if you really boil it down,it's all about connection.
(19:36):
It's either connection to selfI wish I had been more true to
myself, I wish I had, you know,been more authentic, I wish I
hadn't let other people'sjudgment kind of make me not be
myself or it's connection toothers.
I wish I hadn't worked so hard,I wish I'd been there with my
kids more often, I wish I hadn'tlet these relationships,
(19:57):
friendships kind of go sour orjust fade away.
And so when we really boil itdown, it's all about how we're
relating to ourselves and toother people and that's what
everyone really wants and weknow through research and
everything that connection iswhat helps us regulate our
emotions better.
(20:18):
It helps mitigate trauma.
All of these things are sorelated and in our modern day
society it's so easy to beisolated or to feel isolated.
And technology is wonderful andsometimes it makes it harder to
have those real connections.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Right and we get so stuck in the social media.
It's not really social, it'snot allowing us to kind of get
out there and, do you know,speak to people.
And this past summer I took thetime to interview 100 parents
to see like what's going on inparents' lives, and the number
one thing that came out was thatthey felt lonely, that they
didn't feel connected tosomebody, that they didn't feel
(20:58):
that they had a support systemand people to reach out to.
And so this idea of having thatregret later on I love the idea
that you have of this sort ofthought, activity, right, of
putting ourselves a littlecloser to that death and saying
like, what would I change?
What regret would I have?
And if you do feel lonely, Ifeel that we have to take
(21:19):
initiative, right, and say like,well, I don't want to have that
regret.
How can I change things so thatI could, yeah, not have it one
day when I'm dying?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, and I think that's what you do really well
too is that you have thismembership for parents right.
And again back to a couple ofdays ago, I literally was
freaking out when I got my dog.
I understand, and I had atraumatic experience in the past
when I had adopted one.
I was much younger and I was avery tumultuous time in my life
(21:50):
and we know that the body holdson to emotions, right and trauma
, and so I did not expect for meto freak out the way that I did
and I used a lot of tools tohelp emotionally regulate myself
.
And what really got me throughit was connection.
It was talking to other dogowners, it was reading Reddit
(22:11):
posts and forums about peoplewho have gone through similar
things and realizing like, ohokay, I'm not alone, I'm not,
you know, freaking out overnothing, and I think having that
bond with other parents andknowing that it's just part of
this life cycle of being aparent and it's supposed to be
(22:32):
hard and it is really difficult,I think really helps people be
able to work through challengesa little bit easier.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Right, let's talk about that a little bit more.
That was the post that reallybrought me to you and made me
say I need to chat with her.
You said that you wish in your20s, you wish you knew the
importance of recognizing andregulating emotions.
It is the core of what I do aswork, and just hearing you say
that you wish you would have hadthese skills before really
resonated with me.
So what do you mean when yousay that and what led to that?
(23:00):
You wish you would have hadthese skills before really
resonated with me.
So what do you mean when yousay that and what led to that
awareness for you?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
So yeah, and again, I say a lot of things about
things I'd wish I'd known my 20s, but that is literally the
number one thing, because I feellike, had I known that, it
would have saved me so manydifferent heartaches, so much
pain and suffering.
To be honest, the example, whatreally brought that about, was
(23:31):
COVID and the trauma of havingto take care of a huge number of
acutely dying ill people andthe emotions associated with
that for the patients and theirfamilies.
Right, so you know, our, ourlist quadrupled in like a week
and I was like, oh, you know, Isigned up for this because I
(23:54):
wanted to work with sick anddying people.
And then the the universe waslike oh yeah, you want to do
that?
Okay, hold my beer, here's aglobal pandemic for you.
And so my coping mechanisms upuntil then had really been
denial, shoving all my emotionsdown, intellectualization, right
(24:15):
or other what I call unhealthyhabits, which was like shopping,
addiction or other things.
For some people that could beovereating or whatever it is,
and for me I realized it wasproblematic because my emotions
(24:35):
were everywhere.
I couldn't go a day withoutcrying like nine.
I couldn't go a day withoutcrying like nine, 10 times a day
(24:59):
I became suicidal, you know,and luckily again, and I
recommend therapy to everyone,whether you are in that place or
not.
Because she taught me aboutthings like the window of
tolerance for our nervoussystems, right, what a hyper
aroused nervous system lookslike, how to get ourselves calm
when we're anxious,overstimulated, overwhelmed.
(25:20):
She taught me abouthypo-aroused nervous systems,
right, when we're just, we can'tget out of bed and we feel just
so numb and doom and gloom, andhow to get ourselves out of
that into our kind of normalquote unquote window where we're
able to handle the ups anddowns of life.
And through that I got to getmyself back to a point where I'm
(25:45):
like, okay, I feel kind of likemyself, I feel a little bit
more normal compared to the deepdark hole that I was in
previously.
And then after that I got somecoaching, I took other courses
and learned from other people,and that's what got me to see
that, oh, there's more that Ican do, there's possibility here
.
But it's hard to go from deepdark hole to like, oh, I can do
(26:09):
things without gettingyourselves back to quote unquote
, what normal is.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
I want to understand that a little bit more, because
I do think that sometimes,parents or non-parents, it
doesn't matter who but we tendto think like if my life changes
, then I'll be happy, if my lifechanges, then things would be
easier for me and I'd feel lessstress.
But what you kind of alluded toright now is your surrounding
and environment didn't change.
You were still surrounded bythis pandemic and the death that
(26:39):
was around it.
And it wasn't just mindset.
It wasn't about looking at thepositive and I think you've
posted about this because thereare these misconceptions around
positive mindset and gratitudethat we can go into but it
wasn't about that.
It was truly about learning howto cope with those
uncomfortable emotions whichmany of us have not learned.
(27:00):
Our parents, you know, did thebest they could with the tools
that they had.
They were not taught to copewith emotions themselves and
then they passed that on to us.
And so now, as adults, we thinkthat you know suppressing it,
pretending everything is okay or, like you said, the you know
like this, talking to yourselfin the sense like well, this is
hard, okay, but you're still notcoping with it, trying to look
(27:23):
at the positive in a way.
That's not healthy, and justsaying like, oh well, this will
be fine, it'll pass, but you'restill not dealing with it.
And so what do those steps looklike for you?
Because, again, it's not anovernight thing, it's not a one
session, and tomorrow everythingwill be okay.
What sort of things did youhave to start becoming more
aware of, or did you have tostart noticing?
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Yeah, so I basically had to notice when I was
starting to feel anxious.
What does that look like in mybody?
For me, I start to get a littletight in the sternum, the chest
area.
I noticed that my heart rategets a little fast and I'm not
(28:03):
breathing the way that I shouldbe.
They're very short, shallowbreaths and then I go, okay,
what's happening here?
And so I think that's the firststep for everyone, because
everyone's nervous systemmanifests a little bit
differently in different states.
And so you know, that's thefirst thing is to notice like,
okay, what's happening here, andit's usually from the neck down
(28:25):
, we're so neck up, we're sojust like, okay, up here I'm
thinking or whatever, and weforget that we have a whole body
that is really driving the buswhen it comes to our experiences
.
And so that's the first thing.
And then the second thing is tobe like okay, what can I do to
(28:46):
get myself regulated?
I think of it almost like ifthe brain is going down a
pathway, then it's akin to kindof driving down a highway, and
the more that we do something,think something, the more that
highway becomes bigger andbigger and bigger, because
that's how our brains work right.
(29:07):
And then what we need to do tokind of divert ourselves off of
that if we don't want that tocontinue, is to put up a
roadblock.
And a lot of times that couldbe something like tapping EFT
emotional freedom techniques.
A lot of times that could begetting like tapping EFT
emotional freedom techniques.
A lot of times that could begetting up, going for a walk,
that could be taking a deepbreath, calming yourself down,
(29:29):
therapeutic touch, just kind ofrubbing your shoulders or
whatever feels calming.
So those are a couple of things.
And then also what I had torealize over time like you said,
it doesn't happen overnight wasthat every time I thought I'm
going to be happy when thispandemic is over, I'm going to
be happy when blah, blah, blahis over, I'm going to be happy
(29:51):
when I get that bag that I'vebeen wanting, was that I was
trying to control my externalenvironment, right.
I literally was just like oncethese pieces in my life are the
way that I want them, then Iwill be happy.
And it's like I was kind ofgiving my power away to
(30:15):
something that I couldn't quitecontrol, right, and as a type A
person I'm a, you know, I'm abit of a control freak, that
sort of thing and I think manypeople are.
I realized that the only thingthat I could truly actually
control was myself, my ownemotions, what I thought, how I
(30:36):
felt, how I reacted to things.
And I think it's so importantfor parents to realize that too,
because you have this beingthat you can't control right, no
matter how hard you try.
You can influence them, you canteach them, you can try to
correct them, but we can'tcontrol anything.
(30:57):
That's not us.
And so once I had thatrealization, I was like, oh okay
, well then, if I can't actuallycontrol that, then I'm going to
redirect what I can control.
And that was so freeing and itmade me feel so powerful.
And I talked to clients,patients, and teach them that
(31:18):
they're like oh my God, this isamazing.
Like I wish I'd known thisearlier.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I agree.
I really do think that weshould all have known this
earlier.
It should be a course you knowin high school at some point,
because it would help many of uslearn how to cope with very
difficult emotions.
We wouldn't go towards theseunhealthy coping mechanisms
which so many parents still haveand struggle with.
We do it because there'snothing else that we can do.
We don't know.
We don't know how to sit withthe emotion, and we hear it all
(31:45):
the time.
But what does it mean to sitwith the emotion?
We don't know.
It's hard, many of us don'tknow what that is, and so I I
appreciate that you went throughthat journey and that you saw
the impact of that.
You know.
One thing that kind of comes tomind is you spoke about
understanding our body right,and that it's in our body and
it's below our heads.
It makes sense to me, and Ithink that one thing I try to
(32:08):
talk to parents about is yournervous system, regulation and
dysregulation right.
I feel that you've approachedthis in a way that makes so much
sense.
You've talked about rest versusrecharge, and I think that it's
important for us to talk aboutthat, because we're stuck on
this sort of autopilot function.
Sometimes in society it's likewake up, go to work, come back,
(32:30):
get things done at home, withkids or without you.
Come, you leave, you finish,you go to bed, wake up.
Next day starts.
It's sort of this groundhog dayand we don't stop and pause.
And if we were to actually bemore connected to ourselves, we
would notice that we need torest or recharge.
So what does that mean to you?
Why did you want to distinguishbetween both?
I always wonder where the seedcame, the idea.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, I have ADHD and I think part of it was just
like my brain was going andmaking metaphors out of.
You can give me any metaphor.
I can create a life lesson outof it for you.
So you know the I think thereal that you were referring to
was that I was alluding to thefact that I wish I'd known the
difference between rest andrelaxation, recharging,
(33:17):
restoration when I was younger.
And the metaphor that I madewas like, if you think about the
energy that you have to dodaily things or to live as the
level of water in a bathtub,right, and then you know, if you
want to replenish the energywith the level of water in a
(33:38):
bathtub, you've either got to dotwo things.
One is you got to stop thewater from leaving, which
usually means plug the drain,right?
So if you plug the drain, thatis the equivalent of resting.
That is just chilling, netflix,staying on the couch all
weekend.
You know just kind of beinglike I'm not expending energy,
(33:58):
I'm not going to work, I'm notwhatever it is.
And then the issue is is that alot of people think that that
is the same as restoring ourenergy?
We think that that rest,plugging the drain is going to
add more water to the bathtubwhen it's really not.
It's literally just preventingthe water or the energy from
(34:19):
leaving.
And so then it's like, okay,what do we need to do to add
more water to the bathtub, tofill our cup in a sense?
And so that could be things.
That again.
Going back to connection whathelps you feel more connected to
yourself?
For some people it's journaling, right?
For some people it's meditation.
For some people, people it'sjournaling, right?
(34:41):
For some people it's meditation.
For some people it's going fora walk.
Whatever it is.
For some people it's creatingart, connecting with your
friends.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe something that expends a lot
of energy, but it always getsdown to connection to either
self or others.
And so then it's like, okay,what can we do to refill our
(35:04):
bathtub water, our energy levels?
And once I realized that it wasso mind-blowing, because in
hospice and palliative care wetalk about the fact that
Self-care is the best way thatwe treat our patients, because
our work is so heavy and if wecan't pour from an overflowing
(35:25):
cup, if we're not okay ourselves, our patients aren't getting
the treatment and the care thatthey deserve.
Their families are not gettingthe compassion and the empathy
that they really need, and sothat was something that had
never really been taught to mein other disciplines of medicine
.
But because of the work withthe dying, it's so important,
(35:47):
and that's why I'm such a bigfan of emotional regulation, of
tending to our own well-being,because when you're caring for
another being, if you don't haveit together, how can you expect
to really properly care forthis being to the highest level,
right?
Speaker 1 (36:08):
What you're talking about kind of makes me think of
different careers, that peopleare nurturing others and again,
they don't take the time here.
I'm based in Montreal andteachers here are struggling so
much.
We've never seen this rate ofburnout in teachers before.
We are missing teachers to thepoint that we're getting young
students that haven't done anytraining to come teach because
(36:30):
of that.
And when I give well-beingworkshops in schools and with
teachers, they just talk aboutnot being able to fill that cup,
not knowing how, not havingbeen taught how, not knowing to
recognize it and not knowingwhat to do with that.
So it's a really big struggle.
You know anybody who's aclinician and a parent we are
all giving to our kids, and whatyou just said is just so
(36:53):
powerful because, regardless ofthe career you might have or
being a parent, if you don'tnurture yourself first, I know
again, it's one of those cliches, right, with the mask and the
on the plane, and I get that.
I get that it sounds like acliche, but it's true If you
don't do that, you in a qualityformat, right, because I think
that the biggest problem andthis is why I wanted to bring up
(37:15):
that bath analogy that you had.
I do think that people justplug and they say like, okay,
I'm not doing anything thisweekend.
They come out of those weekendsor even just going out for
dinner, but they're notmindfully doing it in a way
that's filling up the bathtub,right.
They're just kind of likeplugging it and saying like I'm
not doing anything.
And then they say why don't Ifeel great, why don't I feel
(37:38):
recharged?
I'm starting Monday feeling thesame way I did Friday, but I
didn't do anything, and now Ihave the guilt that I didn't
clean my house, and now I havethe guilt of other things.
And so this is the conversationthat I hear from parents.
But I think it's because wehaven't really understood what
the difference is and that weneed to come back to that and
understand what fills our cup.
(37:58):
The problem I think that someparents have is they don't know
anymore what fills their cup.
Right, they've lost connection,they're out of, we're not
attuned anymore to our needs.
We have this misconception thatonce we have a child, our needs
don't matter anymore, and ifyou were to do that in your work
, you would struggle.
As you said, the wellbeing partis so important.
(38:18):
So what has I mean when Iexperienced palliative care
through my grandfather.
There was the most beautiful,special people I've ever met in
my life that I still remembertheir faces and this is like 10
years ago.
It's just people who attendedto his needs so beautifully that
I was in awe, and so I am inawe of the work that you do.
(38:41):
What does self-care look likefor somebody doing your work?
It's not just taking a break,right.
What does filling that cup looklike?
Speaker 2 (38:50):
And you've mentioned so many good things just now
because, in response to thatreel, I had a lot of people be
like I don't know what restoresme anymore.
I literally don't know.
I believe it and it makes somuch sense because, like you
said, we're all neck up, we'renot attuned to our bodies
anymore, and so one of thethings that I say to people is
(39:11):
like okay, well, start with whatdid you love as a kid?
Go back to that, because whenwe're young our brainwaves are
very different than when we'reolder.
So our brain waves from zero totwo are like delta waves, when
we're in deep sleep,predominantly two to seven.
Theta, light sleep, seven to 12, kind of alpha brain waves,
(39:34):
where we're a little bit more,you know, chill.
And then 12 and up is the brainwaves that we're in now, right,
beta, we're thinking, or, youknow, or if we're a little bit
more chill, and then 12 and upis the brainwaves that we're in
now, right, beta, we're thinking.
Or if we're really overthinkingand anxious, that could be like
much higher levels of beta whenit comes to what we did as kids
.
That is all unconsciousprogramming.
Our brains are 2% of our bodymass but require 20% of our
(39:59):
oxygen consumption.
So the autopilot that we do,it's just our brains conserving
energy, because it's just likeit's easier to do this than to
really be present.
And so if you think about itthat way, then you're like, oh,
it's just a supercomputerexecuting a program.
We can rewrite programs, we can, you know, code things
(40:21):
differently, and that is reallywhat all of these things are.
It's just kind of interruptingwhat program is already running.
And so, okay, go back to whatyou did as a kid.
What could be fun, or whatwould you do if you weren't
worried about someone else'sjudgment or expectations of you?
That, I think, is a hugebarrier, because I think
(40:43):
everyone knows, when I work withclients, I'm like you already
have the answers, we just needto dig it out of you a little
bit, right?
And so I would start with thosetwo questions.
And then self-care looksdifferent for everyone.
For me, it literally is justlike okay, what do I need to do
to feel better in this moment?
(41:03):
Or how do I need to decompressfrom this day?
Sometimes I need to take areally long cry.
Right During COVID, we haddifferent levels of crying to
signify to my colleagues and Ihow stressed we were.
So if you're just like aregular cry, okay, it's normal.
If it was a shower cry, it'slike, all right, that was a bad
day.
(41:23):
If you can't even stand in theshower, if it was like a
kneeling or sitting shower cry,we're like, okay, let's talk
about it.
I mean, we would talk about itanyway, but still so.
Sometimes we all need thatemotional release, and I think
not enough of us are tuned toour own emotions to be like, oh,
maybe this energy, thisstuckness has to go somewhere.
(41:46):
And when we shove it down anddeny it, it doesn't go anywhere.
It just gets stuck in our bodyand it comes out at inopportune
times.
We yell at a spouse, we freakout on our kids right.
We become irritable and we'relike oh no, that's not what I
(42:08):
wanted to do and that persondidn't deserve that.
But that's what happens if Idon't know what's going on in my
own body.
And so that's why I always comeback to emotional regulation.
Emotional regulation because itaffects everyone around you,
and so that's why it's so, soimportant for parents, for
anyone, whether you have a childor not.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
I'm really happy that you brought up the sort of the
childhood piece, because I dothink that's a great question to
start with, and we forget evenjust being outdoors.
Maybe you don't take enoughtime to be outdoors and you
think about your childhood andyou're like I was outdoors all
the time.
I loved being outdoors.
Sometimes some parents say thatthey happen to start coloring
(42:47):
with their kid and they just doit one day, and when they're
doing it, when they're coloring,they're like, oh my gosh, this
is amazing.
I forgot how fun coloring was.
And then I've seen it with myhusband too.
We'll print out some stuff forthe kids, like these superhero
pictures, and then he grabs oneand he's like, oh yeah, I'm
going to color this.
And he's like look at how nicemy drawing is.
And we have a lot of fun withthat.
(43:08):
So I think that there areaspects of our childhood and
again, our kids are in front ofus.
We're busy, sometimes yellingat them all day, it feels like,
and if we could just step backand learn from them.
They are finding ways to bringjoy and happiness.
But think about your ownchildhood, right.
Use that as a starter, and Ithink it's a beautiful way to
begin to realize or come back towhat makes you feel joy and
(43:31):
what fills your cup.
I'm excited to kind of do thisexperiment on myself as well, to
see what comes out of that.
I want to come back to a momentof that gratitude and mindset
again, because I think thatsometimes we get stuck in these
moments of I just need to begrateful.
Everything is going wrongaround me, but I'm going to say
that I'm grateful for somethingand it'll pass.
(43:52):
And whatever it is, thesepositive aspects, these twists
that I don't think arenecessarily supporting our
wellbeing You've mentioned thisas well.
What has been your experience,I'm assuming, especially with
dealing with death and familymembers?
Is there something that you sawthat made you realize like I
don't think we're going aboutthis the right way?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yeah.
So I love talking about thistopic because I did it myself,
right?
So when I was in the midst ofmy trauma and everything that
was happening, I would be like,okay, I should be grateful for
things.
But then I would say thingslike, okay, I'm grateful I'm
alive, which was true, but I wasusing that almost to gaslight
(44:34):
myself into not feeling thediscomfort of what was actually
happening.
And so I want to make thedistinction that I love
gratitude.
Gratitude is amazing.
Please continue to use it, andit should be used at certain
times.
So if you're feeling okay,you're feeling normal, and you
want to feel gratitude and youwant to think about that and it
(44:57):
helps you get to an even betterplace, wonderful, right.
And gratitude can be used whenwe're feeling really crummy and
that sort of thing, and it canhelp shift our perspective.
What I don't want people to relyon is when they're feeling
really challenged, they'refeeling really emotional,
they're feeling reallyoverwhelmed, anxious, freaking
(45:17):
out, whatever, and then to saylike, okay, well, you know
that's happening, but I'mgrateful that I have, you know,
my health and my life, and thatsort of thing.
The again metaphor that I useis if someone comes up to you
and they chop your arm off rightand you're bleeding and your
(45:38):
arm is just, you know, on theground, whatever.
Are you going to be like oh,you know, I'm so grateful that I
have another arm.
It sounds so ridiculous, right?
You're bleeding out and you'relike oh, you know, I'm like I
still have three limbs, it'sfine, I'm going to be calling
you for metaphors and I have abad day.
I'm ready, I'm ready, but itsounds so ridiculous and it's
(46:02):
meant to be.
But that's what we're doing toourselves, when we're not
addressing what's actuallyhappening and just saying like,
okay, I'm grateful for this.
I've had clients who are justtelling me all these things, the
terrible experiences, and thenthey just pause and go.
But you know, I'm stillgrateful.
I'm like let's address howyou're feeling first.
(46:23):
We can get to the gratitude.
Well, that'll always be there.
But let's calm you down firstand then do that, because
that'll be the extra cherry ontop, because then, if you just
go straight to gratitude, it'salmost like you're just being
like oh, I'm disregarding that.
It's toxic positivity, in asense.
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, exactly, and that's why I thought it was so
important to talk about thispart, because I do think it's a
way of us not dealing withwhat's happening, and we have so
many great ways to do that as asociety.
We just don't deal with theemotions and, like you said
before, it piles up.
This is not just disappearingIf we ignore something that is
bothering us.
If we ignore that uncomfortableemotion.
(47:05):
It's not going away.
It's waiting for that, like yousaid, that opportune time to
come back out, and we cannotcontinue to do that.
And so we have to, as a society, start addressing those
uncomfortable emotions.
But many of us are just notready for it.
Many of us are not not readyfor it, but don't have the
skills and tools yet because wehaven't learned that which makes
(47:25):
it really hard, which makes iteasier to suppress or easier to
use unhealthy coping mechanisms.
You know there are so many thatparents use and talk to me
about, even if it's just likescrolling right, like I don't
want to deal with my marriageright now and so the kids are
screaming and so I'm going toscroll on my phone and ignore.
I don't want to have aconversation or an argument with
my partner or parents saying,like I need that glass of wine,
(47:48):
that is my joy.
So how do we get out?
We have to get out of thosethings as a society, but that
means we have to deal with theuncomfortable emotions, which is
hard yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
And it's hard because , too, so many of these coping
mechanisms if we think about thebrain as a supercomputer were
developed in childhood, when wedidn't have the kind of frontal
cortex maturity and the growth,and so if those things are
happening in childhood I waslistening to your episode with
Dr Bruce Perry and I love thatbook.
(48:20):
What Happened to you?
Speaker 1 (48:22):
Oh my God, life-changing.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
And so if those things are happening to us, I'll
give you an example.
When I was a kid, I've alwaysbeen this way.
Anytime I had an emotion,whether it was joy, frustration,
fear, panic, pain, I'd cry,didn't matter.
And my dad, being kind of youknow, stern immigrant Chinese
dad, be like stop crying.
(48:49):
What's wrong with you?
You're always crying, stop it.
And so, for me, I learned froma young age that expressing my
emotions was not desirable to mycaretakers, the people who were
supposed to care for me, andthat sort of thing.
(49:19):
And then you can see, as I gotolder, that of course, my coping
mechanism was to own childhood.
You'll probably see what comesup and how it's linked to how
you're dealing with, or notdealing with, dissociating from,
separating yourself from theuncomfortable emotions.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
Uncomfortable emotions and culture definitely
plays a part in that.
There are so many people thatI've spoken with that say it
wasn't part of it.
They never saw their fatherexpress any emotions, even their
moms, who would just beuncomfortable with it.
They were very nurturing moms,but when it came to those
emotions, those uncomfortableemotions, it was like just stop
it, just don't be happy.
Be happy with what you have,stop being sad or stop being mad
.
And so I know that that'ssomething that many of our
(50:02):
listeners can relate to, giventhe cultural aspect of that.
So I appreciate that you sharedthat.
I'm struggling so much to stopthis because I'm really having a
good conversation with you.
I truly appreciate you and yourwork.
What would you say to kind ofsum everything up?
You know, given the experiencesyou've had, the conversations
you've had, what are things weshould be doing more or less of?
(50:23):
You know, in general that wouldnurture our well-being and come
from the learnings andconversations you've had with
the dying, hmm, so, the firstthing I would say is really just
bringing awareness to what youand your body is doing right.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
So and sometimes that can be really difficult and
basically just being like, okay,what is happening right now?
Just to step away.
Bring your awareness to yourbody.
Figure out something that inthe moment so when we're talking
about emotions, if we reallyactually address the emotion in
the moment, it's kind of gone inless than a couple minutes.
(51:04):
If we actually do it in themoment there have been studies
on this but if we let it fester,that's when it becomes
problematic, maladaptive and itspirals.
That's just how our brains work.
So, noticing that and coming upwith what works for you in terms
of regulating yourself Is itdeep breaths, is it nature, is
(51:28):
it connection, whatever it is,find what works for you.
And if you don't know, thentalk to somebody or hire a
therapist, a coach, a counselor,whatever it is that can help
you if you're struggling tofigure that out for yourself.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is connection right.
(51:49):
Find your tribe.
Find people with similarinterests who are going through
similar life cycles that you are.
We all think that whatever we'redealing with, whatever
challenge we have, is.
We're the only person that'sever gone through it in the
history of the world.
Meanwhile, there's 8 billionpeople in the world and I
guarantee you someone knowsexactly what you're going
(52:12):
through, and so share your ownstories.
You know, be part of membershipcommunities.
Be part of you know, your localchapter, of whatever it is
that's important to you.
That's what's going to helppeople feel more connected to
themselves, to each other, andalso help them be better parents
(52:34):
, better caretakers, betterspouses, better partners,
children that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
Where can we learn more from?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
you.
So I'm pretty active onInstagram.
My handle is drdrlouiecathysang.
I'll add that in the show notesand then, if anyone is
interested, I've got kind oflike this free video that I
share three top somatictechniques that are really easy
to do that you can use in themoment when you're feeling
(53:05):
anxious, overwhelmed, to justkind of bring that nervous
system down a little bit.
Calm yourself down so that youcan think clearly and figure out
what your next steps are.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Thank you for sharing that, and I know somebody who's
listening is probably askinghow did Sydney not ask questions
about hypnosis?
Because I just feel that thatwould be an entire conversation
on its own, but just a very peak, a small peek into that.
Is this something you do withpatients, with clients that you
work with?
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I'm just curious started doing it in the hospital
because it works so well and Ihave so many patients who are in
pain and have anxiety andsometimes they have medication
side effects.
Then they can't tolerate abenzo or anything that'll help
them calm down or they getconfused on pain meds.
(53:53):
So I've done it with them and Ido it with clients over Zoom.
But hypnosis, very quickly, isjust like you know how we talked
about the brainwaves when we'reyounger.
Hypnosis helps people, justlike deep meditation, get into
those lower brainwave states andthat just blurs the boundary
between our unconscious mindswhich probably is 95% of our
(54:16):
awareness and our consciousminds and it helps us access
things that have been repressed,things that started when we
were in childhood and we didn'treally notice.
And it just is the fastest waythat I experienced change in my
own body for myself, because wehad to practice on each other
(54:38):
and I was like this is amazingfor myself, because we had to
practice on each other and I waslike this is amazing what?
And so I was just like, allright, well then, I'm going to
give it to everyone.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
I've got to share this.
So it's funny the idea of that.
You mentioned meditation.
I had the idea that's in movieswhere you're like you make
somebody do something else, likeyou control their mind.
But it's not that.
It's coming to that.
I'm saying this to kind ofbring it like make it in the
funny end, but it's truly aboutthat meditative state, right,
that you're bringing them into.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
Yeah, that's what we see in the movies select
outliers, people who are reallyreally really super suggestible.
They're very good at figuringout who those people are, and so
when you see them go on stageand be like quack, like a duck,
and they're making a fool out ofthemselves, it scares people
(55:29):
into feeling like, oh, I'm goingto lose control.
You never lose control.
It's just that those people arevery suggestible and that's all
it is.
Most people are kind of in themiddle of suggestibility and
it's really just being superrelaxed and that's about it.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
I could understand why your feeling was like
everybody needs this.
Thank you again for being hereand for sharing everything.
I will put the links to all ofyour ways to reach you and your
freebie in the show notes, and Iappreciate that you're here
today, so thanks again.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for all the work thatyou're doing for parents and
their families.
It is so important, so thankyou.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
Thank you.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation as much as I did
with Dr Kathy Zhang.
If you don't have a notebook, Iencourage you to listen to this
podcast as you are walking ordoing something, so that it's
relaxing.
But take some notes, take sometime to reflect on something
that marked you, take some timeto write down one little thought
(56:28):
that crossed your mind whileyou were listening and then
build on that through theReflective Parenting Podcast and
the content that we share hereat Curious Neuron, whether it's
a blog post or social media postor the newsletter that I send
out every single week.
Take a moment to do that,because that's how you will see
growth and change in behaviorand lowering of your stress and
feelings of overwhelm andbuilding of your confidence as
(56:49):
well, and so I hope that you cansee that growth with us.
Thank you for listening.
Please make sure you subscribeto the podcast and that you
leave a rating and review.
I will see you next Monday.
Bye.
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