October 17, 2024 • 47 mins
In this episode, Joni sits down with Shawn Kemp, the Information Systems Renewal Officer at the Non-GMO Project, to discuss the intersection of technology, regeneration, and community building in transforming the food system. Shawn shares his unique upbringing in an off-grid environment and how it shaped his passion for sustainable food systems. He explains the modernization efforts at the Non-GMO Project to enhance transparency and trust within the food supply chain.
Shawn also introduces the Food Integrity Collective, a new initiative that goes beyond non-GMO verification to address broader issues like nutrient density, packaging, and the treatment of workers in food production. The conversation dives into the importance of decentralization in building trust, technology's role in scaling these efforts, and the challenges of balancing transparency, cost, and accessibility for small producers.
Key Topics Discussed:
- Shawn Kemp's journey from a sustainable upbringing to a career in technology and food systems.
- How the Non-GMO Project is using technology to empower communities with data on food integrity.
- The concept of decentralization and its importance in building trust in food systems.
- Introduction to the Food Integrity Collective and its goals for a more holistic approach to food systems.
- The challenges of balancing transparency, cost, and access, particularly for small producers.
- How technology can help ensure more transparency in the food system without driving up costs.
- The importance of community in validating food practices and building trust at a local level.
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Shawn Kemp:
- LinkedIn: Shawn Kemp
Subscribe & Review:
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. Share this episode with your friends and family to spread the word about the important work happening at the Non-GMO Project and the Food Integrity Collective.
Regenerative by design is hosted by Snacktivist. Snacktivist creates baking mixes and finished products that are allergy-friendly, soil, water, and carbon-focused, all while radically impacting human nutrition by transforming staple foods into something more than just empty calories. Visit snacktivistfoods.com to learn more.
Funding for Regenerative By Design Podcast was made possible by a grant/cooperative agreement from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) Agricultural Marketing Service. Its contents are solely the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official views of the USDA.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Joanne, hello everyone. You arelistening to the regenerative by
(00:04):
design podcast where we will begetting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. Iam your host. Joni quinwell
Moore. Join me on this journeyas we explore the stories of
individuals and organizationswho are working to realign our
food system with both humanhealth and the health of our
planet. Hello, everybody. I amso pleased you're joining us
(00:24):
today. I have Sean Kemp from theNon GMO Project joining us
today. Welcome Sean,
thank you.
Yeah. It's so much fun when youmeet these other collaborators
Out in the great world ofregenerative and better for you,
food systems, and Sean'sdefinitely been one of those
that after the over the lastcouple years, I have come to
(00:45):
really admire and respect, andI'm just really happy you're
joining me today. We're going totalk about technology
regeneration and ecosystembuilding. So yay. I love that
topic, triad. Triad.
Thanks for Thanks for having.Me, it all kind of revolves
around community. Like, for me,it all is the theme of, how do
(01:05):
you build community? That's thetools that that underpin that,
that's the that's the part that,for me, that really is
important. Yeah,
it is because, you know, it'sfunny how, in all these
activities that all of us whowork in this food system
transformation realm experience.It's like, at the end of the
day, it's this need torehumanize our food system and
(01:27):
put community back into theframework of it. So I know that
you and your work, your team, isheavily involved in this and and
I just you've had a fascinatingbackground in general. So Sean,
if you could just take a minuteand let our listeners know,
like, who you are, where'd youcome from? What are you doing
today, and what kind of work?What kind of work is making you
excited to get up every morningand jam?
(01:51):
Yeah, so I'll start with today,and then I'll jump back, like,
all the way back to my earlychildhood, and I'll do it all in
like, 45 cents. At the moment, Iam in the Information Systems
renewal officer at the Non GMOProject, so really making sure
that our technology systemspower the work that that the
project gets. But I mean, I gotmy start in this when I was a
(02:16):
tiny little kid, like I was bornin the back countries of the
Golden Sierra wilderness inCalifornia, I grew up llamas. I
lived in a yurt. I lived in ageodesic dome. I had homemade
yogurt for breakfast when I wasa kid. So I grew up with this
kind of real appreciation forwhere food comes from, the
(02:40):
health aspects of it and itsimpact on the environment and
the communities that are aroundit. And then I also love
technology, so I went that wholeroute too, and spent some time
in big corporate tech. I was atMicrosoft for a number of years,
and then I started reallywanting more kind of meaning
within that. How do you actuallybuild a community, not just to
(03:01):
sell people stuff. I mean, notthat that's not a bad thing, but
like there was something wasdrawing tie it
all back together withintention. I mean, that's one
thing that when I, when I meetkids that grew up with that kind
of intentionality, upbringingaround food, it's, it's not so
much always a healthconversation as it is an
(03:22):
intention and connectionconversation. And I think for
those of us who grew up inhouseholds where, you know, it
could, which I did, we did a lotof subsistence. So like hunting,
gardening, fishing, and then, ofcourse, processing everything
that came out of that, it justgives you a really different
feel for, like, the whole lifecycle of a product and and like
the the hands and time and heartthat goes into actually making
(03:45):
something that you can use oreat. It's a totally different
way of looking at thingscompared to my my friends who
grew up like literally neverhaving that connection, like
food just came out of a box orthe microwave, and that was
pretty much the end of
it so much easier. Like, that'sas a kid, I wish I envied all of
my friends who had that, and Igo over their houses and have,
like, front pockets and whateverelse they had that was but, but
(04:08):
I'm really thankful, because nowI have an appreciation for that,
and it's much more a part of mylife and the work that I do to
support those especially placebased like, how do you how do
you support the local producers,and have that be part of the the
ecosystem that we're that we'reall part of, yeah,
yeah, for sure. Now, what gotyou interested in technology
(04:29):
early on? I mean, I'm thinkingof this little kid out in the
woods in the Sierra Nevadas. Imean, what was it that got you
started that made you pick up acomputer? Because there's some
really cool stories out there ofpeople I've met recently that
literally grew up off grid orcompletely cloistered away from
technology access, and havebecome very brilliant innovators
(04:49):
when it comes to technology. Solike, tell us a little bit about
how that got started.
And this is like, I'm like asecond grader, and I would
first. Second grade time period,and I would come in from machete
out in the in the woods bymyself. I mean, you know, the
stuff that we did as kidsgrowing up now, would, wouldn't
(05:09):
go out, but and my, my grandpaactually was, was into
technology to a certain extent,and he bought me a Commodore. It
was Vic 20 was the name of thecomputer. It was like one of the
early computers. I just wasfascinated with programming,
like it was just this thing. SoI would go from outside fishing
(05:30):
and, you know, being acompletely dirty, muddy kid, to
coming inside and hooking up asolar panel and batteries so
that I could run the computer.The reason wasn't in that
the computer. All that'samazing. That is amazing. You
had to wait for sunny days soyou could, like, juice up the
batteries and get some power.There's, there's a lot of really
(05:51):
fascinating work coming out,just thinking through, like, the
nature design process. And inpeople who spend a lot of time
in nature and have exposure tothat. It's a very different way
of thinking and building andprogramming when you spend a lot
of time in nature compared towhen you're just in front of a
computer all the time. Do youthink that your time outside has
(06:12):
given you a different, like,more holistic view of how
technology can serve us?
Right? I think so. I mean, Ithink that perspective seeing
all that. I also spent some timegrowing up in Hawaii, and the
culture there is one of talkingstory, and so that, that aspect
of being in relation withpeople, and just spending time
(06:32):
talking story, I mean, there'sno other way to explain it other
than that's what you're doing.It's just, it's the time you're
doing that. And so
you're humane for a minute. It'slike, it's sad how some
cultures, and I guess you know,they love it because it's part
of their cultural fabric, butthere's not always the respect
for taking the time to just dothat talking story. It's like
(06:54):
that humaning moment. And I'vealways loved that about about
Hawaii and about Pacific coastalculture in general, from Alaska
to Hawaii down to Mexico. I feellike, as a kid who grew up on
the Oregon coast like that wasreally important and was taking
that time to just talk to yourneighbors. I
love it, yeah, yeah. And justtrade, trade, the stories. And
(07:16):
then I actually went through thefunny part is, is technology has
been a theme through my mycareer and life, but I got a
degree in industrial design, soI'm actually more of a human
centric designer than I am ahardcore engineer or
technologist, and there I cankeep up with them all, but I
(07:36):
appreciate more of the thedesign, The challenge. How do
you weave that tool intosomething that makes us more
human, that allows us to do thethings that we're good at, and
takes away the mechanical sideof things. I am so
glad you just brought that up,because that's a huge deal right
now. It's a huge deal right now.Like, I think there's a tug of
(07:57):
war all the time with humans,where we're like, Oh no,
technology is going to take ourour our talents away, or our,
you know, utility away. But Ithink at the end of the day,
well placed technology canactually free us up to have more
time to do the things we like todo, or like the more creative
side of things, and help tosatisfy some of these mundane
(08:17):
tasks that often take a lot ofour creative time away. Yeah,
but
the important part is that wehave to hold the balance of that
developmental work to allow usto be able to otherwise we just
become, we become part, anextension of the machine, and
then we're just doing themechanical work in a in a
robotic way, as opposed to themachines allowing us to have
(08:41):
that freedom. I mean, too oftenwe become our work, then becomes
just making up for the thingsthat we were too lazy to make
machines do spiritually in likeour information systems and
things like that, there's Yeah.
So how are you putting this allto work today? Sean, like, what
are you currently doing at theNon GMO Project? You guys have
(09:02):
some really cool stuff happeningthere. And it's, I don't think
most customers think oftechnology. When they think of
Non GMO Project, they think ofthe very recognized trademark on
the package. It is the mostwidely recognized trademark of
all that are out there. And I'vealways found it very intriguing
that you guys are a veryinnovative tech forward group of
(09:25):
people like tell us a little bitabout what you do.
Yeah. So I mean, what we've beendoing for the last I've been
with the project since January,officially, but I've been
working, working with theproject for about two years
prior to that, and I've been,I'm, I'm located here in
Bellingham, Washington, which iswhere the project is, was
(09:45):
founded and still isheadquartered. So I've been
friends with and aligned withthe work that the project's been
doing for, you know, since theirinception, 17 years ago. The
work we're doing now is, is kindof twofold, on the technology
front, more. One. We've beenworking really hard over the
last nine months to completelymodernize our systems, so we
(10:06):
have really good foundationalwork that we've done to be able
to do the next step of things,which is our Food Integrity
work. So we've got our ourcurrent Non GMO Project
verification activities thathappen the standard there and
the incredible work that'shappening. And we want to be
(10:27):
able to make that even moreaccessible and be able to
empower the community with thedata that we have around that
stuff. So we've built theinfrastructure. We've basically
rebuilt the entireinfrastructure so that we can
start exposing that data to anecosystem of partners and
healthcare professionals andnutritionists, and you name it
(10:51):
like, be able to actually startopening that data up and be able
to actually support much moreextensible stuff with Our Food
Integrity initiative that we'reworking on, Food Integrity
Collective is what you can findit at, yeah, most
of our listeners probablyhaven't heard of the Food
Integrity collective because itis so new. And I you know right
(11:13):
now it's more kind of industryinsider type folks are involved,
or have heard or gone to anevent. What can you tell us
about the this, this newmovement that's coming out of
the Non GMO Project? Yeah,
yeah. So first of all, FoodIntegrity, collective.org, if
anybody wants to check it out,yeah. Little plug there for
(11:33):
that. But it's, it's, it's, it'sbasically acknowledging that one
thing isn't enough, like we livein a living system and just non
GMO or just organic or just fairtrade, while great and
necessary, aren't it's thatisn't going to move us forward
(11:54):
within the systems that we livewith. It we
kind of more transactional. Youknow, it's not a systems type of
it's a component of a system,but it is still a component,
yeah, yeah.
And to be healthy, you know,that's something that's in right
relation with us. Culturally, wehave to be thinking about human
health. We have to be thinkingabout planetary health, we have
(12:16):
to be thinking about communityhealth within all of those
things. So stuff like nutrientdensity, biodiversity, the
packaging that goes into things,how animals are cared for and
treated within that system, youknow, regenerative and what does
that look like, the theworkforce and the communities
(12:37):
that till the soil and producethe food and create the thing,
like all of it, all of it goesinto those things and kind of
raising this developmentalmindset, if you will, around
that is an important aspect ofit. So it's very it's very
audacious, it's veryaspirational,
but, but it's also so important.It's so needed, yeah, yeah.
(13:02):
That's, that's why I committedto coming on with the project,
because I think
it's important. Yeah, it isimportant, and it's and it's so
wonderful to see respected marksand organizations that already
have a very strong presence inthe space, just taking it to the
next level, because that iswhere we need to go. I mean, we
(13:22):
just have to get past this kindof more reductionistic paradigm
where everything operates in asilo and independent, totally
independent of the system. Andwe know now, and it's becoming
so common across the board, thatpeople are like, yeah,
everything's interconnected.Like, that's becoming like, more
culturally accepted as aconcept, which seems shocking
(13:44):
that ever wasn't but, I mean,just even think, like 20 years
ago, this was like revolutionarytype conversations to have, like
in a outside of maybe a likelate night after after a potluck
on a college campus orsomething, you know what I mean,
like, and it's really becomingmainstream. And I even, like,
last time I went home, beingfrom rural Oregon, and I'm
(14:07):
sitting and hanging out withsome of my mom's friends and
whatnot, and they were like,hey, you know, we're so
interested in how, you know thethese farming practices you've
been talking about all theseyears are actually making
healthier food. And I was like,Oh, we've arrived. Like, this is
amazing. I mean, this these are,you know, and not with all due
(14:27):
respect, Mom, I love you and Ilove your friends. But it hasn't
been the norm to have those kindof conversations in her cohort.
And this is rural, rural Oregon,and you know, they were so
excited about that because itwas empowering to them, like it
was empowering in a way that wasnew, because I feel like their
generation, as baby boomers, itwas always like, what you didn't
(14:48):
do that would dictate yourhealth. So it was like a diet
driven culture. It was areductionistic, driven kind of
concept of like, Oh, I'm healthybecause I don't do this and I
don't eat that, and now it'slike, oh, I'm. Healthy because
I'm choosing to eat more of thisthat has more of this because of
how it was raised. Like that isa completely new way of looking
at the world.
(15:10):
I love it. I love
it. And so for you guys toreally be jumping in on that,
like higher level conversationis, is a big is a big deal, but
it's a heavy lift. I know youguys have given a lot of time
and thought into how you can getinvolved with that, because it's
not, it's not a simple thing toconvey
to the point of ecosystems. Itrequires an ecosystem like no no
(15:34):
one entity, no one certified, noone no is going to be able to do
this. It does span everything.Have to build ecosystems. We
have to build the capacity, wehave to build the will. We have
to help people along thatjourney. And that requires a
whole network of people andorganizations and working
(15:58):
together and figuring out howthat and acknowledging that it
looks different in differentplaces. It can be size fits all,
type of approach that works 100%everywhere. Yeah.
So how does technology help withthat? Sean? I mean, you really
walk that line between theseworlds of like technology
implementation, design thinking,ecosystem thinking and food
(16:21):
systems like, where are youseeing? The places where
technology can really help levelup this movement and make it
more scalable, more accessibleand more effective?
There's a couple of areas, and Idon't know which ones are the
right one. So it's kind of likelooking at these, all those
different different pedals ordifferent different aspects. One
(16:44):
is really around kind of thetrust. So how do you, how can
you capture evidence, validatethat evidence, maybe in a
distributed fashion, withinthose things, so that people can
have trust, so that you can, Ithink there's an aspect of
shortcut to trust that we haveto acknowledge is is the reality
today, and how do we how do westart there, while giving us an
(17:09):
avenue toward where people canactually go deeper and learn
about the things so I thinktechnology at scale will allow
us to be able to capture what'shappening at a farm, at a
processor, at a manufacturer,maybe even at the store, so that
and validate that, so that wehave more trust in where stuff's
(17:30):
coming from, and then we canopen that up and not have it be
as binary of a validation, likeright now, everything is a
Binary validation.
Yeah, it is that's the systemthat drives our current model.
But you brought up a reallyimportant word, and it's
something that those of us whowork in in blockchain in
particular, are trust baseddigital systems. We use this
(17:54):
word a lot, and I think it'd bereally helpful for us just to
take a second and like, stepaside and just talk about what,
what is distributed mean in thiscontext, and why this is such a
critical point when you thinkabout building trust in a
transaction economy, becauseit's not centralized, it's
distributed like, there's atension point between this,
(18:17):
like, you know, consolidatedmodel, That is, it's, you know,
very colonial. Quite frankly,it's top down. It's highly
regulated, and it's one wheredistributed is like the
opposite. So like, I would lovefor you to just help, help us
educate our our listeners. Andlike, this is a fascinating
(18:37):
thing. And I remember the day itdawned on me when I was
listening to some reallyinteresting like coffee and
concept meetings, and we weredeep diving on blockchain and
why it was important, and thiswas, like in 2016 and it like
Thunderbolt, like hit me when Irealized what it meant for trust
and scaling trust in theeconomy. So riff on that for me
(19:01):
for a minute. Sean, I'm excitedto hear your thoughts. Yeah,
yeah. So it's a big, broadsystem, right? There's like,
millions of farmers, millions ofproducers. I mean, you just, you
add up everything. There'sexponential numbers of these,
and every one of them have aunique essence, or a unique
thing. So imagine, like afarmer. I'll use my I'll use my
brother in law as an example. Hedoes pasture raised eggs, yeah,
(19:27):
and meat as well. But he's gotthings that he does, some of
which he could verify orcertify, and some of which are
more just things that he doesthere, like, he moves the
chicken coops every single day,and they roll around on these
really cool wheels. But thedecentralized aspect is, how can
(19:49):
he capture that? How could hecapture evidence that he moves
it every day? Like, how could hetake a picture? Or, you know,
these super birds that areroaming around that aren't even
in the things you. How can hecapture that level of
information? And then how mighthis neighbors, or the people who
come and visit or or thecustomers who come out and pick
(20:11):
up their eggs from the locationbe able to validate that in a
decentralized manner, so that hedoesn't have to pay someone
$1,000 or $5,000 to come outevery three weeks,
like he's doing it, because heis, like, proud of what he does,
and he wants to validate theactivities and be able to share
(20:33):
it like, that's a very powerfulthing when, when you really
stand and think about it, it'snot because, like, you know,
somebody's telling them, oh, youhave to do this because we have
some, you know, regulatory thingor whatever. It's literally,
like, almost autonomouslydriven. And that's a really cool
concept when you when you startto nerd out about, like, what
(20:55):
that means for things like thefood system and for quality
across the food system, and for,quite frankly, respect, and, you
know, just respect for theproducers of the food system,
like, you know, there'ssomething to be said for pride
and and provenance, and when youcan show proof of what you're
(21:16):
doing, and it comes all the waydown to the farm, and there's
pride in that, And you'resharing it that drives a whole
nother level of quality. Itdrives a whole nother level of
human connection in the foodsystem.
And then, if you candecentralize it, or that, that
validation of the evidence rightthen, then there's a trust chain
that can go up the people whomay not be able to make it out
(21:40):
there again, but like, when hegoes, he has cameras, and so
when people say, Are you sure?Because they don't, I mean,
like, prove it. That's the livecam. And says, here they are.
People can see it like, that'sjust an example of how he's
doing. That validation of theevidence that's there. But what
can we do that at a biggerscale? How can we allow
(22:03):
producers, the creators ofstuff, to be able to have their
evidence be verified in a reallyunique essence way, so it
doesn't have to just come downto one certification, one
standard, right? That it can be.I mean, like we look at the Food
Integrity Collective, we haveeight petals. There's like,
eight different things. Yeah,that's a lot. Like, there's
(22:28):
probably, you know, how can youdo that? I think that's the
decentral. I think you have tohave some aspects of that and
community. Like, I think that'salso where community comes in,
like, who? Who are those peoplethat are validating we did a lot
of work my I had a companycalled Action sprout that I
(22:48):
founded. We worked with a lot ofnonprofits and political
candidates. About 150,000 usedour platform, and we sat on top
of Facebook. And one of thethings that we did a lot of work
with was political discourserelated to the elections, 2016,
2020, terms in between, and whatwe found was the best kind of
(23:14):
inoculation for trolls and botsand election interference In
these comments was people whoknew each other. So when
somebody would come in and tryand have really disruptive
activities within those systems,the people who were recognized
in the community were able toresolve that really quickly, and
(23:34):
they were able to call it outand say, I live here. Who are
you? You're not part of thisparty or this party. Right?
The authenticity part kickedright in.
They were able to validate the Imean, they didn't have the
evidence, you know, they couldsay, I know you, I know you. Who
are you? Where's our mutual,common thing. So community is a
really important aspect of allof those things. I
(23:56):
think 100% I mean community, bynature, is decentralized. It's
like clusters of independentpeople and families and
communities. And speaking ofthat, my son is walking in the
door. So it's going to be loudhere for a second, and but it is
that whole, like, you know,concept of, you know, where to
(24:17):
me, I think technology is today,when I look at the the
transition into modern societythat we're at where, you know,
we have a very highly populatedworld. We've got, you know,
access to interesting digitalcommunication happening like
globally, which is shocking. Iremember going to North Africa,
really remote parts of NorthAfrica, and Tunisia, back in
(24:40):
2005 I think it was no 2009 andthey would bring in their phones
from remote Bedouin villages andplug them in in town. They would
push all the data from like acommunity Wi Fi base, and they
would take the phones back, likeout into the middle of the
desert. And it was. Amazing,because it was for the first
(25:01):
time in in the history that theycould recall, they now had power
over their own economy, and theyknew if they were getting
cheated when they came in totrade their camels and whatnot.
And I thought, wow, like, thisis actually a really powerful
thing that these very remote,you know, people who are living
in the same way that theirancestors did 2000 years ago,
(25:24):
and that they they value thisconnection to technology because
it allows them to participate inlarger communities that help
them have economic viability,and it makes it fair, like it
actually leveled the playingfield for them. Because before
it was all based on like, Well,this guy told me that we get
this for our for our mutton, andthat's, is what it is. We don't
have any way to compare. Wedon't know. And once they got
(25:46):
those phones, boom, like,suddenly they were like, wait,
you know, this guy's beentotally short changing us this
whole time. We just didn't knowwhere Muhammad, one village
down, he can pay us double. Andthat's, that's a pretty powerful
thing. So I love it.
Just information is, I mean,it's critical, and then making
(26:07):
sense of that is, I mean, one ofthe challenges I think, right
now within the systems thatwe're in is whom are overloaded
with information, and so we dohave to think about like, how do
we, how do we help people makesense of it? There may be some
stuff around AI there that'sthat's going to help with some
of that stuff. And then I think,yeah, so just learning how to
(26:28):
think like we, we as a as asystem, have to make room for
what we at the project calleddevelopmental thinking. So
within that, there's apractitioner called Carol
Sanford. As a she's got a ton ofreally great books. They've been
they were my aha moments like,amazing,
yeah, yeah.
(26:50):
But it's, it's this idea thatreally, in order to kind of be
able to move in a developmental,regenerative way, we need to be
able to have, I gave a talk lastweek, and somebody I had said,
Isn't that just criticalthinking? Yes, it is, yeah, but
it's like holistic critical
thinking, it is. It's slightlydifferent than just critical
(27:13):
thinking,
yeah, yeah. We have to beresourced like and we we have to
do that for the system, like thesystem has to do that and move
toward those things so thatpeople can develop more and more
of that ability to digest theinformation, determine whether
it's right or wrong. Thetechnology has to help take the
(27:36):
evidence and validate it, sothere is stuff there, so that,
and this is where, like, thebeing human part really comes in
for me, so that we can actuallymake those judgments that are
almost based on intuition, asopposed to just having to have
it be based on data. Like,there's a, there's a beautiful
thing there, where we can, wecan know, we know, a lot of
(27:59):
times what's right. We can feelit. Yeah, I'm
glad you're bringing that up,because that's a that's a big
deal. Otherwise, it's very easyto get pulled into, what is it
like? Pygmalion complex? I can'tremember what it's called. It's
like where you worship themodel, not the reality. And I
think sometimes such anobsession with just data driven
systems, and at the blatantdisregard of gut instinct or
(28:23):
common sense can lead us on somevery scary, dark paths.
Like, that's what makes ushuman, living systems like,
that's the mean. I think there'sa phrase predictably irrational
or irrational. You know thatirrationality is, is part of
system, really, and function.Yeah? I mean, it's part of what
(28:48):
makes food great and like, whenit's not, if it's always tastes
exactly the same, looks exactlythe same, is exactly it's not
actually beautiful.
Yeah, I know that we end up likethe Borg from Star Trek, where
they just take, like a littlecapsule, and that's it. There's
no enjoying food. And, you know,I've often been haunted that all
(29:10):
these years later, I was like,that is so second twisted, like
I get it, but, um, it just kindof defeats the purpose of, like,
the the come, like, thecommuning with your food. I
mean, food, food is like, you'rethe one time people really
commune with nature a few timesa day. You know, it's like a
it's a thing, and it's deeplyhuman. It's deeply human. So I
(29:33):
love that. I love the work thatyou guys are doing. It's been so
much fun getting to know yourteam in a more complex, dynamic
way, because you guys are all,like, really outside of the box
thinkers and very compassionateand excessively smart, which is
an awesome combination and andin a position to really help
people rethink this stuff. Like,okay, what? What are we doing?
(29:56):
Like, why are we eating? Is whatwe're choosing to eat. Good for.
US, is it good for the planet?And we need more evangelizers
out there that are bringing thatto light
at scale? To be it wants to bethat unified view, like, if it's
just like, this has been part ofthat, I think the problem is
(30:17):
that we've dilated just aboutour individual health, we need
to be like, when, yeah, bigpunch the system, 100% Yeah,
impact on the climate, which iskind of where some of the more,
like soil health, regenerativestuff is, or we miss, we miss
the community health aspect.Like, how is it impacting the
(30:38):
communities? And if we justfocus on that and it's about
labor and labor conditions, thenwe miss the I mean, it's and
that's why this is because wedon't realize the intersection
of all that 100%
and we can't see it. I mean,it's not visible to us,
especially now that our foodsystems are not consisting of
(30:59):
like person to persontransactions. It's we're always,
like, two to 10,000 stepsremoved from it. And I think
again, this is where technologyis very valuable as a tool to
help us regain some of thatconnection, especially when
things have come from many, manytransactions away. And I always
(31:22):
think I hate to pick onavocados, but I do pick on
avocados a lot. I love avocados,full disclosure. But you know,
avocados are one of those thingsthat you know, for years has
been touted well for I mean, I'mof the age where it was like the
devil back in the 90s, becauseit was like everyone was fat
free and all of that stuff. Andthen suddenly people started
eating avocados again, and nowthey're like the new, you know,
(31:45):
cures everything type food. Butthere's this dark and dirty
secret that remains thatavocados have some pretty
catastrophic environmentalimpacts depending on the
stewardship, and can havedisastrous impacts on
communities, especiallyindigenous communities with
water rights and whatnot. And tome, they kind of epitomize that
perfect blend of understandingwhere your food came from.
(32:08):
Because I live in northernIdaho, there's no way we'll ever
grow an avocado here. Ever,ever, ever, ever. So if I want
an avocado, it has to be grown along ways away and change hands.
And I like to know, like, wheredid this come from? Am I can
contributing to an indigenouscommunity in Chile that's or,
you know, that's being, like,moved off their land because
(32:30):
they lose water rights becauseof avocado farming. Like, those
are things that actually wouldaffect my purchasing if I were
able to know. And the sad thingis, is I'm not able to know even
at a health food store. Andagain, that's why I'm I'm really
pleased that you guys with theFood Integrity, integrity
collaborative and Non GMOProject, are really thinking
(32:51):
through that deep complexity oftransparency. And what that
means for food
transparency is a, it's a toughone, like, I mean, that is, it's
a very tough Yes, at the core ofthe non gay male project. I
mean, what Megan webgate foundedthe whole thing on was informed
choice for people to be able
(33:14):
to get the right to know do
whatever they want with that. Imean, choose this, you're bad,
if you choose this, you're good.You are the right to
you have the right to know soimportant and shocking that you
know it ever got to the pointwhere that wasn't Yeah, just a
(33:34):
normal thing. But here we are.
It's a tough one. So I mean,like in the technology side of
things, when I talk aboutecosystems and technology,
ecosystems and everythingthere's within the within the
food system that we have, thefood the food supply system,
there are, there are a lot ofreasons to not have transparency
(33:56):
in those systems. There are alot of incentives in place to
obfuscate and hide the stuff inthose systems. I mean for very
good I mean very obvious andgood reasons. For
good reasons, like tradesecrets. You're like, Oh, I
really don't want everybody toknow what my recipe for my
magical winning hot sauces,
(34:20):
and the fact that you know whothey are, that is the trade
secret. I mean, there are a lotof dismiss the like, yeah, yeah,
but they're there in the systems
they are. And it doesn't meanit's wrong or bad or has any
malintent, and it does make itreally complex to have
meaningful transparency, even ifit is kind of like a
(34:43):
transparency, where you may notknow all the detail, but you
have validation that it isindeed, you know, aligning with
some sort of value attributesystem that's meaningful to you
as a consumer,
that. I think that's going to beone of the areas that we as a as
(35:04):
people, just within thesesystems through there. And I
mean, we're seeing it withingovernments. You're seeing it
within like, what Europe's doingwith their regulations around
deforestation, their eudrregulations, yes, trying to get
more of that, and running upagainst a lot of that trans, the
transparency that doesn't wantto be in the system. I think
(35:25):
that's going to be, I think thatwill be one of our big one of
our big challenges is, how do weget into relation with food, and
how much of the system needs tochange and how much other
mechanisms need to be put aroundit so that somebody can be in
relation, like, how do you putsomebody in relation with an
(35:45):
avocado when you can't find outwhere it came from? Yeah, right.
And the thing is, is we could.It's not, it's not that hard to
get it done. But like you said,there's not always a lot of
yearning from the decisionmakers to make that happen, just
(36:06):
because it might, it mightdisclose some things that are
uncomfortable, that they need tofix, that maybe they either
don't know how to fix. In allfairness, that is a thing, and
it doesn't mean they're wrong.Because if they're like, oh
gosh, we don't want to shine alight on this, because we really
don't know how to solve it, andthen they don't want to be
villainized like in the publiceye. I totally understand that,
(36:26):
like, that's actually a verylegitimate concern. But, you
know, I feel like this, theseare just these kind of high
level, sophisticated problemsthat technology can be a tool to
help us solve and still have aenough sophistication in the
solution where we we don't dothe open kimono style of
(36:47):
transparency that some peoplelike the I love the open source
folks, but I'm like, that'snever going to work on food and
agriculture, never in a millionyears. Because you literally
can't just have wide open eyeson everything that you do, and
quite frankly, that couldactually be quite dangerous from
a food system securitystandpoint, from like, a
(37:08):
domestic security even level. Soit is, it is something that we
have to think through the designprocess very, very carefully,
and we probably won't get itright on day one. We're going to
going to have to iterate to makesure that we, like, let it
evolve to being what is best.That's my thought. Anyways,
(37:28):
like I always hold this one is,how do we not add extra costs
into the system? Yeah, because,yeah, like the intent is, is
good, and often we end upintroducing all these extra
things that somebody has to do,which may be good in itself.
They might add significant cost,but it adds
up. Yeah, it adds up, especiallyfor small players. So if it's
(37:52):
expensive, then it becomesprohibitive to small players,
which is a big deal,
where we just become we wecreate more of a divide. The
stuff that is in relation isonly there for the people with
means and affluence to be ableto afford it. And that, for me,
is a big like, I have a badthat's a big deal. But I think
(38:15):
the fact that most people cannotafford the food that is good for
them, their planet and theircommunities is one of the
fundamental breaking points inour in our supply system, like
the fact that most people inthis country, their primary and
closest source of food is DollarGeneral, the food that they're
(38:35):
like. What does it look like tohave those supply chains have
that transparency in a way thatdoesn't, that doesn't put food
scarcity even more there. Like,how do you do that,
or take away from investing invalue in the actual food to
begin with? Like, you know, ifit really comes down to, like,
Oh, I'm going to choose a betterquality ingredient, or, Oh,
(38:58):
whoops, I have to pay for someexpensive side deal. Well, I You
sure don't want it to be at thesacrifice of the quality of the
food or the compensation to theperson who made it high quality
in the first place. So it is avery delicate balance. I agree
with you. I grapple with thatevery day, truly. Um, which is,
(39:20):
which is fascinating. So, youknow, what's next for you guys?
I mean, where, where are you,where are you taking all of this
right now? At, at the, you know,food integrity, collective and
Non GMO Project, and you as aperson, like, what do you think
is next for you guys?
You know, I mean, we're notspeaking too much for the
project as a whole. Yeah. Imean, I think there's, there's
(39:41):
two, there's two things that arethat are there? One is more
actionable insights, so that wecan continue to really make a
difference in the non GMO space.I mean, that there's new
analogies coming online. There'sall kinds of there's a lot of
stuff coming at us there that isvery high. Hard to interpret.
(40:02):
And I'm really glad you guyshave stuck your foot in the
ground and you're like, No, hereis where we draw the line,
because I think it's, it'sconfusing to me, and I have a
degree in science, and I work inthe food system, and I find it
daunting. So I can't evenimagine, you know, for
consumers, like, they need tohave like, a guiding light of
like, okay, I know that theseguys have thought this through,
(40:23):
and where do we draw thoselines? Yeah,
there's new work. There's newwords, new terms coming in,
like, precision, which, I mean,I like beer seems like a great,
I mean, it was great. Like, thatsounds like a really good beer,
but like, that's a that's athat's a GMO. I mean, there's
(40:44):
definite focus there. How do weget better, more actionable
insights through the data wehold on the non GMO verified
products to be able to actuallymake a more meaningful impact on
all the things that are comingonline there, both in the US and
globally. Because food supplysystem, yeah. And then really
starting to bring online thework around the Food Integrity
(41:08):
collective, to figure out whatthat looks like in a way that
can scale meaningfully, to takethe great work that's that's
already happened over the last17 years within GMO space and
the recognition that's there,the relationships and trust with
retailers and consumers andeaters and brands. And how do we
(41:30):
take that and not just let itatrophy over time or like become
the stodgy stewards of thatthing, but actually use that to
move into something that's evenmore regenerative, even more
impactful, and figure that outcollectively, like I mentioned
to them, it's that. I mean, theapproach here isn't just come up
with a new standard, get itwritten up, stand your label on
(41:54):
the path, and we're done. Kindof thing this is, this is
developmental, like, how do weall work to develop the systems,
the ecosystem, technology, waysof tracking this stuff, ways of
defining what's good, what'slike, what should be in there,
yeah,
yeah. And what don't we know?Yeah, I and I love that. You
know, I love the work there. Inall full disclosure, I do work
(42:18):
with the Food Integritycollective, because I really
believe in the work, even thoughI'm not, I'm not personally
working in the branded space asmuch anymore, because we've
really drifted to serving B toB, and value chain development
from seed to plate, and but itjust I I'm so pleased with how
it's coming in that way, whereit is like a very much like, we
(42:40):
want to hear everybody'sopinion. We don't want to come
in and say, Okay, here's the newrules. Everybody like, you know,
show up and shut up. This iswhat we're doing. It's, it's
very iterative, and that's superunique. And I just believe a lot
in the process. I think it's,it's really great. It's truly a
regenerative by design typeapproach, which is fantastic.
We're going to need that movingforward, because there's a lot
(43:02):
of complexity coming at us, andit's, it's great to see good
people working together to getthat done. So yeah,
like, what? We have these eightpedals, from, you know, minimal
processing to packaging to nonGMO pedals. But what? What is it
that people are doing? What isit that they're valuing? What is
(43:25):
it that they think add value forthe system they're closer
connected to the system? Todefine those think about it from
a technology and systemstandpoint, it's like, what
evidence do people do? Peoplelike farmers, ranchers,
producers, brands, eaters,consumers? Yeah, do they want to
have in the system and to havethat verified, what level of
(43:49):
rigor within each and then whatwe need to make sure is online
and but system, I don't meanlike the Non GMO Project,
building the system. We mightbuild pieces, but other players,
like, what are the who are allthe people that are doing that?
What other you know, who else isout there that's doing those
things? Because it's all part ofa system, and nobody's going to
(44:12):
build the one thing that doeseverything right.
100% agree. It's like the heromindset of like one well, like
Ethan, from how good he's like,there's no one ring that will
rule them all when it comes toregen. And I'm like, I have
stolen that line on manyoccasions, because it just, it's
(44:32):
so perfect. And, yeah, it's,it's just really refreshing to
see an organization that hassuch a position of legacy in the
market to push back on that andgo, no, there is going to be no
one ring ruling them all. Thisis a collaborative process, and
we need to work together as agroup. It's very cool. So I know
(44:54):
I would imagine our listenersare going to want to learn more
about these initiatives, becausechances are they might not know.
Know that there's this muchgoing on at Non GMO Project
headquarters, which is supercool. You already did give a
plug on Food Integritycollective and where people can
find out more information. We'llput that in the show notes as
far as you. Sean, if somebody'slike, I want to talk to somebody
(45:15):
who's regen tech, food systems.Guy, like, where can they reach
out and like, follow you, followyour work, maybe have a
conversation.
It's probably the best place tofind me. Yeah,
that's a good one.
John Kemp, on LinkedIn, therewas, it's a little hard to find
me because there was two famousbasketball players in the
Pacific Northwest, both namedSean Kemp, no figure, dominate
(45:39):
the stuff. But yeah, it's like,if somebody wants to get ahold
of me directly or through theinfo, I mean, they can contact,
they can get in touch with methrough just a general info at
the Non GMO Project.
Well, that's perfect. Okay,great. That's awesome. It's
amazing. How many conversationsget spurned from these podcasts,
(46:00):
like, you know, and whatnot. Soit's always wonderful when
people actually can reach outand follow up and ask questions
or contribute to theconversation. So for all of you
who are out there listening,thank you for joining us, and we
are going to wrap it up, butplease take a minute to share
this with your friends. Let yourfriends and community know that
Non GMO Project is stepping upto a whole nother level of
(46:23):
community engagement, and Iwould imagine that your friends
and family will be excited tohear that and and just make sure
to give us a rating if you havea second too. So thanks so much
for tuning in. Sean, thanks forjoining me and letting us know
what you're up to. And it's beenreally fun. I've enjoyed it. I
(46:44):
you. Thank you. All right. Well,now you've got one of your own
super fun All right, so we'llsee you next time everybody this
episode
of the regenerative by designpodcast is brought to you by
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regenerative supply chainsthrough innovative products and
(47:04):
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Thank you for joining me on theregenerative by design podcast.
Please take a moment to reviewour channel on your favorite
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(47:29):
You.
Joanne, hello everyone. You arelistening to the regenerative by
(00:04):
design podcast where we will begetting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. Iam your host. Joni quinwell
Moore. Join me on this journeyas we explore the stories of
individuals and organizationswho are working to realign our
food system with both humanhealth and the health of our
planet. Hello, everybody. I amso pleased you're joining us
(00:24):
today. I have Sean Kemp from theNon GMO Project joining us
today. Welcome Sean,
thank you.
Yeah. It's so much fun when youmeet these other collaborators
Out in the great world ofregenerative and better for you,
food systems, and Sean'sdefinitely been one of those
that after the over the lastcouple years, I have come to
(00:45):
really admire and respect, andI'm just really happy you're
joining me today. We're going totalk about technology
regeneration and ecosystembuilding. So yay. I love that
topic, triad. Triad.
Thanks for Thanks for having.Me, it all kind of revolves
around community. Like, for me,it all is the theme of, how do
(01:05):
you build community? That's thetools that that underpin that,
that's the that's the part that,for me, that really is
important. Yeah,
it is because, you know, it'sfunny how, in all these
activities that all of us whowork in this food system
transformation realm experience.It's like, at the end of the
day, it's this need torehumanize our food system and
(01:27):
put community back into theframework of it. So I know that
you and your work, your team, isheavily involved in this and and
I just you've had a fascinatingbackground in general. So Sean,
if you could just take a minuteand let our listeners know,
like, who you are, where'd youcome from? What are you doing
today, and what kind of work?What kind of work is making you
excited to get up every morningand jam?
(01:51):
Yeah, so I'll start with today,and then I'll jump back, like,
all the way back to my earlychildhood, and I'll do it all in
like, 45 cents. At the moment, Iam in the Information Systems
renewal officer at the Non GMOProject, so really making sure
that our technology systemspower the work that that the
project gets. But I mean, I gotmy start in this when I was a
(02:16):
tiny little kid, like I was bornin the back countries of the
Golden Sierra wilderness inCalifornia, I grew up llamas. I
lived in a yurt. I lived in ageodesic dome. I had homemade
yogurt for breakfast when I wasa kid. So I grew up with this
kind of real appreciation forwhere food comes from, the
(02:40):
health aspects of it and itsimpact on the environment and
the communities that are aroundit. And then I also love
technology, so I went that wholeroute too, and spent some time
in big corporate tech. I was atMicrosoft for a number of years,
and then I started reallywanting more kind of meaning
within that. How do you actuallybuild a community, not just to
(03:01):
sell people stuff. I mean, notthat that's not a bad thing, but
like there was something wasdrawing tie it
all back together withintention. I mean, that's one
thing that when I, when I meetkids that grew up with that kind
of intentionality, upbringingaround food, it's, it's not so
much always a healthconversation as it is an
(03:22):
intention and connectionconversation. And I think for
those of us who grew up inhouseholds where, you know, it
could, which I did, we did a lotof subsistence. So like hunting,
gardening, fishing, and then, ofcourse, processing everything
that came out of that, it justgives you a really different
feel for, like, the whole lifecycle of a product and and like
the the hands and time and heartthat goes into actually making
(03:45):
something that you can use oreat. It's a totally different
way of looking at thingscompared to my my friends who
grew up like literally neverhaving that connection, like
food just came out of a box orthe microwave, and that was
pretty much the end of
it so much easier. Like, that'sas a kid, I wish I envied all of
my friends who had that, and Igo over their houses and have,
like, front pockets and whateverelse they had that was but, but
(04:08):
I'm really thankful, because nowI have an appreciation for that,
and it's much more a part of mylife and the work that I do to
support those especially placebased like, how do you how do
you support the local producers,and have that be part of the the
ecosystem that we're that we'reall part of, yeah,
yeah, for sure. Now, what gotyou interested in technology
(04:29):
early on? I mean, I'm thinkingof this little kid out in the
woods in the Sierra Nevadas. Imean, what was it that got you
started that made you pick up acomputer? Because there's some
really cool stories out there ofpeople I've met recently that
literally grew up off grid orcompletely cloistered away from
technology access, and havebecome very brilliant innovators
(04:49):
when it comes to technology. Solike, tell us a little bit about
how that got started.
And this is like, I'm like asecond grader, and I would
first. Second grade time period,and I would come in from machete
out in the in the woods bymyself. I mean, you know, the
stuff that we did as kidsgrowing up now, would, wouldn't
(05:09):
go out, but and my, my grandpaactually was, was into
technology to a certain extent,and he bought me a Commodore. It
was Vic 20 was the name of thecomputer. It was like one of the
early computers. I just wasfascinated with programming,
like it was just this thing. SoI would go from outside fishing
(05:30):
and, you know, being acompletely dirty, muddy kid, to
coming inside and hooking up asolar panel and batteries so
that I could run the computer.The reason wasn't in that
the computer. All that'samazing. That is amazing. You
had to wait for sunny days soyou could, like, juice up the
batteries and get some power.There's, there's a lot of really
(05:51):
fascinating work coming out,just thinking through, like, the
nature design process. And inpeople who spend a lot of time
in nature and have exposure tothat. It's a very different way
of thinking and building andprogramming when you spend a lot
of time in nature compared towhen you're just in front of a
computer all the time. Do youthink that your time outside has
(06:12):
given you a different, like,more holistic view of how
technology can serve us?
Right? I think so. I mean, Ithink that perspective seeing
all that. I also spent some timegrowing up in Hawaii, and the
culture there is one of talkingstory, and so that, that aspect
of being in relation withpeople, and just spending time
(06:32):
talking story, I mean, there'sno other way to explain it other
than that's what you're doing.It's just, it's the time you're
doing that. And so
you're humane for a minute. It'slike, it's sad how some
cultures, and I guess you know,they love it because it's part
of their cultural fabric, butthere's not always the respect
for taking the time to just dothat talking story. It's like
(06:54):
that humaning moment. And I'vealways loved that about about
Hawaii and about Pacific coastalculture in general, from Alaska
to Hawaii down to Mexico. I feellike, as a kid who grew up on
the Oregon coast like that wasreally important and was taking
that time to just talk to yourneighbors. I
love it, yeah, yeah. And justtrade, trade, the stories. And
(07:16):
then I actually went through thefunny part is, is technology has
been a theme through my mycareer and life, but I got a
degree in industrial design, soI'm actually more of a human
centric designer than I am ahardcore engineer or
technologist, and there I cankeep up with them all, but I
(07:36):
appreciate more of the thedesign, The challenge. How do
you weave that tool intosomething that makes us more
human, that allows us to do thethings that we're good at, and
takes away the mechanical sideof things. I am so
glad you just brought that up,because that's a huge deal right
now. It's a huge deal right now.Like, I think there's a tug of
(07:57):
war all the time with humans,where we're like, Oh no,
technology is going to take ourour our talents away, or our,
you know, utility away. But Ithink at the end of the day,
well placed technology canactually free us up to have more
time to do the things we like todo, or like the more creative
side of things, and help tosatisfy some of these mundane
(08:17):
tasks that often take a lot ofour creative time away. Yeah,
but
the important part is that wehave to hold the balance of that
developmental work to allow usto be able to otherwise we just
become, we become part, anextension of the machine, and
then we're just doing themechanical work in a in a
robotic way, as opposed to themachines allowing us to have
(08:41):
that freedom. I mean, too oftenwe become our work, then becomes
just making up for the thingsthat we were too lazy to make
machines do spiritually in likeour information systems and
things like that, there's Yeah.
So how are you putting this allto work today? Sean, like, what
are you currently doing at theNon GMO Project? You guys have
(09:02):
some really cool stuff happeningthere. And it's, I don't think
most customers think oftechnology. When they think of
Non GMO Project, they think ofthe very recognized trademark on
the package. It is the mostwidely recognized trademark of
all that are out there. And I'vealways found it very intriguing
that you guys are a veryinnovative tech forward group of
(09:25):
people like tell us a little bitabout what you do.
Yeah. So I mean, what we've beendoing for the last I've been
with the project since January,officially, but I've been
working, working with theproject for about two years
prior to that, and I've been,I'm, I'm located here in
Bellingham, Washington, which iswhere the project is, was
(09:45):
founded and still isheadquartered. So I've been
friends with and aligned withthe work that the project's been
doing for, you know, since theirinception, 17 years ago. The
work we're doing now is, is kindof twofold, on the technology
front, more. One. We've beenworking really hard over the
last nine months to completelymodernize our systems, so we
(10:06):
have really good foundationalwork that we've done to be able
to do the next step of things,which is our Food Integrity
work. So we've got our ourcurrent Non GMO Project
verification activities thathappen the standard there and
the incredible work that'shappening. And we want to be
(10:27):
able to make that even moreaccessible and be able to
empower the community with thedata that we have around that
stuff. So we've built theinfrastructure. We've basically
rebuilt the entireinfrastructure so that we can
start exposing that data to anecosystem of partners and
healthcare professionals andnutritionists, and you name it
(10:51):
like, be able to actually startopening that data up and be able
to actually support much moreextensible stuff with Our Food
Integrity initiative that we'reworking on, Food Integrity
Collective is what you can findit at, yeah, most
of our listeners probablyhaven't heard of the Food
Integrity collective because itis so new. And I you know right
(11:13):
now it's more kind of industryinsider type folks are involved,
or have heard or gone to anevent. What can you tell us
about the this, this newmovement that's coming out of
the Non GMO Project? Yeah,
yeah. So first of all, FoodIntegrity, collective.org, if
anybody wants to check it out,yeah. Little plug there for
(11:33):
that. But it's, it's, it's, it'sbasically acknowledging that one
thing isn't enough, like we livein a living system and just non
GMO or just organic or just fairtrade, while great and
necessary, aren't it's thatisn't going to move us forward
(11:54):
within the systems that we livewith. It we
kind of more transactional. Youknow, it's not a systems type of
it's a component of a system,but it is still a component,
yeah, yeah.
And to be healthy, you know,that's something that's in right
relation with us. Culturally, wehave to be thinking about human
health. We have to be thinkingabout planetary health, we have
(12:16):
to be thinking about communityhealth within all of those
things. So stuff like nutrientdensity, biodiversity, the
packaging that goes into things,how animals are cared for and
treated within that system, youknow, regenerative and what does
that look like, the theworkforce and the communities
(12:37):
that till the soil and producethe food and create the thing,
like all of it, all of it goesinto those things and kind of
raising this developmentalmindset, if you will, around
that is an important aspect ofit. So it's very it's very
audacious, it's veryaspirational,
but, but it's also so important.It's so needed, yeah, yeah.
(13:02):
That's, that's why I committedto coming on with the project,
because I think
it's important. Yeah, it isimportant, and it's and it's so
wonderful to see respected marksand organizations that already
have a very strong presence inthe space, just taking it to the
next level, because that iswhere we need to go. I mean, we
(13:22):
just have to get past this kindof more reductionistic paradigm
where everything operates in asilo and independent, totally
independent of the system. Andwe know now, and it's becoming
so common across the board, thatpeople are like, yeah,
everything's interconnected.Like, that's becoming like, more
culturally accepted as aconcept, which seems shocking
(13:44):
that ever wasn't but, I mean,just even think, like 20 years
ago, this was like revolutionarytype conversations to have, like
in a outside of maybe a likelate night after after a potluck
on a college campus orsomething, you know what I mean,
like, and it's really becomingmainstream. And I even, like,
last time I went home, beingfrom rural Oregon, and I'm
(14:07):
sitting and hanging out withsome of my mom's friends and
whatnot, and they were like,hey, you know, we're so
interested in how, you know thethese farming practices you've
been talking about all theseyears are actually making
healthier food. And I was like,Oh, we've arrived. Like, this is
amazing. I mean, this these are,you know, and not with all due
(14:27):
respect, Mom, I love you and Ilove your friends. But it hasn't
been the norm to have those kindof conversations in her cohort.
And this is rural, rural Oregon,and you know, they were so
excited about that because itwas empowering to them, like it
was empowering in a way that wasnew, because I feel like their
generation, as baby boomers, itwas always like, what you didn't
(14:48):
do that would dictate yourhealth. So it was like a diet
driven culture. It was areductionistic, driven kind of
concept of like, Oh, I'm healthybecause I don't do this and I
don't eat that, and now it'slike, oh, I'm. Healthy because
I'm choosing to eat more of thisthat has more of this because of
how it was raised. Like that isa completely new way of looking
at the world.
(15:10):
I love it. I love
it. And so for you guys toreally be jumping in on that,
like higher level conversationis, is a big is a big deal, but
it's a heavy lift. I know youguys have given a lot of time
and thought into how you can getinvolved with that, because it's
not, it's not a simple thing toconvey
to the point of ecosystems. Itrequires an ecosystem like no no
(15:34):
one entity, no one certified, noone no is going to be able to do
this. It does span everything.Have to build ecosystems. We
have to build the capacity, wehave to build the will. We have
to help people along thatjourney. And that requires a
whole network of people andorganizations and working
(15:58):
together and figuring out howthat and acknowledging that it
looks different in differentplaces. It can be size fits all,
type of approach that works 100%everywhere. Yeah.
So how does technology help withthat? Sean? I mean, you really
walk that line between theseworlds of like technology
implementation, design thinking,ecosystem thinking and food
(16:21):
systems like, where are youseeing? The places where
technology can really help levelup this movement and make it
more scalable, more accessibleand more effective?
There's a couple of areas, and Idon't know which ones are the
right one. So it's kind of likelooking at these, all those
different different pedals ordifferent different aspects. One
(16:44):
is really around kind of thetrust. So how do you, how can
you capture evidence, validatethat evidence, maybe in a
distributed fashion, withinthose things, so that people can
have trust, so that you can, Ithink there's an aspect of
shortcut to trust that we haveto acknowledge is is the reality
today, and how do we how do westart there, while giving us an
(17:09):
avenue toward where people canactually go deeper and learn
about the things so I thinktechnology at scale will allow
us to be able to capture what'shappening at a farm, at a
processor, at a manufacturer,maybe even at the store, so that
and validate that, so that wehave more trust in where stuff's
(17:30):
coming from, and then we canopen that up and not have it be
as binary of a validation, likeright now, everything is a
Binary validation.
Yeah, it is that's the systemthat drives our current model.
But you brought up a reallyimportant word, and it's
something that those of us whowork in in blockchain in
particular, are trust baseddigital systems. We use this
(17:54):
word a lot, and I think it'd bereally helpful for us just to
take a second and like, stepaside and just talk about what,
what is distributed mean in thiscontext, and why this is such a
critical point when you thinkabout building trust in a
transaction economy, becauseit's not centralized, it's
distributed like, there's atension point between this,
(18:17):
like, you know, consolidatedmodel, That is, it's, you know,
very colonial. Quite frankly,it's top down. It's highly
regulated, and it's one wheredistributed is like the
opposite. So like, I would lovefor you to just help, help us
educate our our listeners. Andlike, this is a fascinating
(18:37):
thing. And I remember the day itdawned on me when I was
listening to some reallyinteresting like coffee and
concept meetings, and we weredeep diving on blockchain and
why it was important, and thiswas, like in 2016 and it like
Thunderbolt, like hit me when Irealized what it meant for trust
and scaling trust in theeconomy. So riff on that for me
(19:01):
for a minute. Sean, I'm excitedto hear your thoughts. Yeah,
yeah. So it's a big, broadsystem, right? There's like,
millions of farmers, millions ofproducers. I mean, you just, you
add up everything. There'sexponential numbers of these,
and every one of them have aunique essence, or a unique
thing. So imagine, like afarmer. I'll use my I'll use my
brother in law as an example. Hedoes pasture raised eggs, yeah,
(19:27):
and meat as well. But he's gotthings that he does, some of
which he could verify orcertify, and some of which are
more just things that he doesthere, like, he moves the
chicken coops every single day,and they roll around on these
really cool wheels. But thedecentralized aspect is, how can
(19:49):
he capture that? How could hecapture evidence that he moves
it every day? Like, how could hetake a picture? Or, you know,
these super birds that areroaming around that aren't even
in the things you. How can hecapture that level of
information? And then how mighthis neighbors, or the people who
come and visit or or thecustomers who come out and pick
(20:11):
up their eggs from the locationbe able to validate that in a
decentralized manner, so that hedoesn't have to pay someone
$1,000 or $5,000 to come outevery three weeks,
like he's doing it, because heis, like, proud of what he does,
and he wants to validate theactivities and be able to share
(20:33):
it like, that's a very powerfulthing when, when you really
stand and think about it, it'snot because, like, you know,
somebody's telling them, oh, youhave to do this because we have
some, you know, regulatory thingor whatever. It's literally,
like, almost autonomouslydriven. And that's a really cool
concept when you when you startto nerd out about, like, what
(20:55):
that means for things like thefood system and for quality
across the food system, and for,quite frankly, respect, and, you
know, just respect for theproducers of the food system,
like, you know, there'ssomething to be said for pride
and and provenance, and when youcan show proof of what you're
(21:16):
doing, and it comes all the waydown to the farm, and there's
pride in that, And you'resharing it that drives a whole
nother level of quality. Itdrives a whole nother level of
human connection in the foodsystem.
And then, if you candecentralize it, or that, that
validation of the evidence rightthen, then there's a trust chain
that can go up the people whomay not be able to make it out
(21:40):
there again, but like, when hegoes, he has cameras, and so
when people say, Are you sure?Because they don't, I mean,
like, prove it. That's the livecam. And says, here they are.
People can see it like, that'sjust an example of how he's
doing. That validation of theevidence that's there. But what
can we do that at a biggerscale? How can we allow
(22:03):
producers, the creators ofstuff, to be able to have their
evidence be verified in a reallyunique essence way, so it
doesn't have to just come downto one certification, one
standard, right? That it can be.I mean, like we look at the Food
Integrity Collective, we haveeight petals. There's like,
eight different things. Yeah,that's a lot. Like, there's
(22:28):
probably, you know, how can youdo that? I think that's the
decentral. I think you have tohave some aspects of that and
community. Like, I think that'salso where community comes in,
like, who? Who are those peoplethat are validating we did a lot
of work my I had a companycalled Action sprout that I
(22:48):
founded. We worked with a lot ofnonprofits and political
candidates. About 150,000 usedour platform, and we sat on top
of Facebook. And one of thethings that we did a lot of work
with was political discourserelated to the elections, 2016,
2020, terms in between, and whatwe found was the best kind of
(23:14):
inoculation for trolls and botsand election interference In
these comments was people whoknew each other. So when
somebody would come in and tryand have really disruptive
activities within those systems,the people who were recognized
in the community were able toresolve that really quickly, and
(23:34):
they were able to call it outand say, I live here. Who are
you? You're not part of thisparty or this party. Right?
The authenticity part kickedright in.
They were able to validate the Imean, they didn't have the
evidence, you know, they couldsay, I know you, I know you. Who
are you? Where's our mutual,common thing. So community is a
really important aspect of allof those things. I
(23:56):
think 100% I mean community, bynature, is decentralized. It's
like clusters of independentpeople and families and
communities. And speaking ofthat, my son is walking in the
door. So it's going to be loudhere for a second, and but it is
that whole, like, you know,concept of, you know, where to
(24:17):
me, I think technology is today,when I look at the the
transition into modern societythat we're at where, you know,
we have a very highly populatedworld. We've got, you know,
access to interesting digitalcommunication happening like
globally, which is shocking. Iremember going to North Africa,
really remote parts of NorthAfrica, and Tunisia, back in
(24:40):
2005 I think it was no 2009 andthey would bring in their phones
from remote Bedouin villages andplug them in in town. They would
push all the data from like acommunity Wi Fi base, and they
would take the phones back, likeout into the middle of the
desert. And it was. Amazing,because it was for the first
(25:01):
time in in the history that theycould recall, they now had power
over their own economy, and theyknew if they were getting
cheated when they came in totrade their camels and whatnot.
And I thought, wow, like, thisis actually a really powerful
thing that these very remote,you know, people who are living
in the same way that theirancestors did 2000 years ago,
(25:24):
and that they they value thisconnection to technology because
it allows them to participate inlarger communities that help
them have economic viability,and it makes it fair, like it
actually leveled the playingfield for them. Because before
it was all based on like, Well,this guy told me that we get
this for our for our mutton, andthat's, is what it is. We don't
have any way to compare. Wedon't know. And once they got
(25:46):
those phones, boom, like,suddenly they were like, wait,
you know, this guy's beentotally short changing us this
whole time. We just didn't knowwhere Muhammad, one village
down, he can pay us double. Andthat's, that's a pretty powerful
thing. So I love it.
Just information is, I mean,it's critical, and then making
(26:07):
sense of that is, I mean, one ofthe challenges I think, right
now within the systems thatwe're in is whom are overloaded
with information, and so we dohave to think about like, how do
we, how do we help people makesense of it? There may be some
stuff around AI there that'sthat's going to help with some
of that stuff. And then I think,yeah, so just learning how to
(26:28):
think like we, we as a as asystem, have to make room for
what we at the project calleddevelopmental thinking. So
within that, there's apractitioner called Carol
Sanford. As a she's got a ton ofreally great books. They've been
they were my aha moments like,amazing,
yeah, yeah.
(26:50):
But it's, it's this idea thatreally, in order to kind of be
able to move in a developmental,regenerative way, we need to be
able to have, I gave a talk lastweek, and somebody I had said,
Isn't that just criticalthinking? Yes, it is, yeah, but
it's like holistic critical
thinking, it is. It's slightlydifferent than just critical
(27:13):
thinking,
yeah, yeah. We have to beresourced like and we we have to
do that for the system, like thesystem has to do that and move
toward those things so thatpeople can develop more and more
of that ability to digest theinformation, determine whether
it's right or wrong. Thetechnology has to help take the
(27:36):
evidence and validate it, sothere is stuff there, so that,
and this is where, like, thebeing human part really comes in
for me, so that we can actuallymake those judgments that are
almost based on intuition, asopposed to just having to have
it be based on data. Like,there's a, there's a beautiful
thing there, where we can, wecan know, we know, a lot of
(27:59):
times what's right. We can feelit. Yeah, I'm
glad you're bringing that up,because that's a that's a big
deal. Otherwise, it's very easyto get pulled into, what is it
like? Pygmalion complex? I can'tremember what it's called. It's
like where you worship themodel, not the reality. And I
think sometimes such anobsession with just data driven
systems, and at the blatantdisregard of gut instinct or
(28:23):
common sense can lead us on somevery scary, dark paths.
Like, that's what makes ushuman, living systems like,
that's the mean. I think there'sa phrase predictably irrational
or irrational. You know thatirrationality is, is part of
system, really, and function.Yeah? I mean, it's part of what
(28:48):
makes food great and like, whenit's not, if it's always tastes
exactly the same, looks exactlythe same, is exactly it's not
actually beautiful.
Yeah, I know that we end up likethe Borg from Star Trek, where
they just take, like a littlecapsule, and that's it. There's
no enjoying food. And, you know,I've often been haunted that all
(29:10):
these years later, I was like,that is so second twisted, like
I get it, but, um, it just kindof defeats the purpose of, like,
the the come, like, thecommuning with your food. I
mean, food, food is like, you'rethe one time people really
commune with nature a few timesa day. You know, it's like a
it's a thing, and it's deeplyhuman. It's deeply human. So I
(29:33):
love that. I love the work thatyou guys are doing. It's been so
much fun getting to know yourteam in a more complex, dynamic
way, because you guys are all,like, really outside of the box
thinkers and very compassionateand excessively smart, which is
an awesome combination and andin a position to really help
people rethink this stuff. Like,okay, what? What are we doing?
(29:56):
Like, why are we eating? Is whatwe're choosing to eat. Good for.
US, is it good for the planet?And we need more evangelizers
out there that are bringing thatto light
at scale? To be it wants to bethat unified view, like, if it's
just like, this has been part ofthat, I think the problem is
(30:17):
that we've dilated just aboutour individual health, we need
to be like, when, yeah, bigpunch the system, 100% Yeah,
impact on the climate, which iskind of where some of the more,
like soil health, regenerativestuff is, or we miss, we miss
the community health aspect.Like, how is it impacting the
(30:38):
communities? And if we justfocus on that and it's about
labor and labor conditions, thenwe miss the I mean, it's and
that's why this is because wedon't realize the intersection
of all that 100%
and we can't see it. I mean,it's not visible to us,
especially now that our foodsystems are not consisting of
(30:59):
like person to persontransactions. It's we're always,
like, two to 10,000 stepsremoved from it. And I think
again, this is where technologyis very valuable as a tool to
help us regain some of thatconnection, especially when
things have come from many, manytransactions away. And I always
(31:22):
think I hate to pick onavocados, but I do pick on
avocados a lot. I love avocados,full disclosure. But you know,
avocados are one of those thingsthat you know, for years has
been touted well for I mean, I'mof the age where it was like the
devil back in the 90s, becauseit was like everyone was fat
free and all of that stuff. Andthen suddenly people started
eating avocados again, and nowthey're like the new, you know,
(31:45):
cures everything type food. Butthere's this dark and dirty
secret that remains thatavocados have some pretty
catastrophic environmentalimpacts depending on the
stewardship, and can havedisastrous impacts on
communities, especiallyindigenous communities with
water rights and whatnot. And tome, they kind of epitomize that
perfect blend of understandingwhere your food came from.
(32:08):
Because I live in northernIdaho, there's no way we'll ever
grow an avocado here. Ever,ever, ever, ever. So if I want
an avocado, it has to be grown along ways away and change hands.
And I like to know, like, wheredid this come from? Am I can
contributing to an indigenouscommunity in Chile that's or,
you know, that's being, like,moved off their land because
(32:30):
they lose water rights becauseof avocado farming. Like, those
are things that actually wouldaffect my purchasing if I were
able to know. And the sad thingis, is I'm not able to know even
at a health food store. Andagain, that's why I'm I'm really
pleased that you guys with theFood Integrity, integrity
collaborative and Non GMOProject, are really thinking
(32:51):
through that deep complexity oftransparency. And what that
means for food
transparency is a, it's a toughone, like, I mean, that is, it's
a very tough Yes, at the core ofthe non gay male project. I
mean, what Megan webgate foundedthe whole thing on was informed
choice for people to be able
(33:14):
to get the right to know do
whatever they want with that. Imean, choose this, you're bad,
if you choose this, you're good.You are the right to
you have the right to know soimportant and shocking that you
know it ever got to the pointwhere that wasn't Yeah, just a
(33:34):
normal thing. But here we are.
It's a tough one. So I mean,like in the technology side of
things, when I talk aboutecosystems and technology,
ecosystems and everythingthere's within the within the
food system that we have, thefood the food supply system,
there are, there are a lot ofreasons to not have transparency
(33:56):
in those systems. There are alot of incentives in place to
obfuscate and hide the stuff inthose systems. I mean for very
good I mean very obvious andgood reasons. For
good reasons, like tradesecrets. You're like, Oh, I
really don't want everybody toknow what my recipe for my
magical winning hot sauces,
(34:20):
and the fact that you know whothey are, that is the trade
secret. I mean, there are a lotof dismiss the like, yeah, yeah,
but they're there in the systems
they are. And it doesn't meanit's wrong or bad or has any
malintent, and it does make itreally complex to have
meaningful transparency, even ifit is kind of like a
(34:43):
transparency, where you may notknow all the detail, but you
have validation that it isindeed, you know, aligning with
some sort of value attributesystem that's meaningful to you
as a consumer,
that. I think that's going to beone of the areas that we as a as
(35:04):
people, just within thesesystems through there. And I
mean, we're seeing it withingovernments. You're seeing it
within like, what Europe's doingwith their regulations around
deforestation, their eudrregulations, yes, trying to get
more of that, and running upagainst a lot of that trans, the
transparency that doesn't wantto be in the system. I think
(35:25):
that's going to be, I think thatwill be one of our big one of
our big challenges is, how do weget into relation with food, and
how much of the system needs tochange and how much other
mechanisms need to be put aroundit so that somebody can be in
relation, like, how do you putsomebody in relation with an
(35:45):
avocado when you can't find outwhere it came from? Yeah, right.
And the thing is, is we could.It's not, it's not that hard to
get it done. But like you said,there's not always a lot of
yearning from the decisionmakers to make that happen, just
(36:06):
because it might, it mightdisclose some things that are
uncomfortable, that they need tofix, that maybe they either
don't know how to fix. In allfairness, that is a thing, and
it doesn't mean they're wrong.Because if they're like, oh
gosh, we don't want to shine alight on this, because we really
don't know how to solve it, andthen they don't want to be
villainized like in the publiceye. I totally understand that,
(36:26):
like, that's actually a verylegitimate concern. But, you
know, I feel like this, theseare just these kind of high
level, sophisticated problemsthat technology can be a tool to
help us solve and still have aenough sophistication in the
solution where we we don't dothe open kimono style of
(36:47):
transparency that some peoplelike the I love the open source
folks, but I'm like, that'snever going to work on food and
agriculture, never in a millionyears. Because you literally
can't just have wide open eyeson everything that you do, and
quite frankly, that couldactually be quite dangerous from
a food system securitystandpoint, from like, a
(37:08):
domestic security even level. Soit is, it is something that we
have to think through the designprocess very, very carefully,
and we probably won't get itright on day one. We're going to
going to have to iterate to makesure that we, like, let it
evolve to being what is best.That's my thought. Anyways,
(37:28):
like I always hold this one is,how do we not add extra costs
into the system? Yeah, because,yeah, like the intent is, is
good, and often we end upintroducing all these extra
things that somebody has to do,which may be good in itself.
They might add significant cost,but it adds
up. Yeah, it adds up, especiallyfor small players. So if it's
(37:52):
expensive, then it becomesprohibitive to small players,
which is a big deal,
where we just become we wecreate more of a divide. The
stuff that is in relation isonly there for the people with
means and affluence to be ableto afford it. And that, for me,
is a big like, I have a badthat's a big deal. But I think
(38:15):
the fact that most people cannotafford the food that is good for
them, their planet and theircommunities is one of the
fundamental breaking points inour in our supply system, like
the fact that most people inthis country, their primary and
closest source of food is DollarGeneral, the food that they're
(38:35):
like. What does it look like tohave those supply chains have
that transparency in a way thatdoesn't, that doesn't put food
scarcity even more there. Like,how do you do that,
or take away from investing invalue in the actual food to
begin with? Like, you know, ifit really comes down to, like,
Oh, I'm going to choose a betterquality ingredient, or, Oh,
(38:58):
whoops, I have to pay for someexpensive side deal. Well, I You
sure don't want it to be at thesacrifice of the quality of the
food or the compensation to theperson who made it high quality
in the first place. So it is avery delicate balance. I agree
with you. I grapple with thatevery day, truly. Um, which is,
(39:20):
which is fascinating. So, youknow, what's next for you guys?
I mean, where, where are you,where are you taking all of this
right now? At, at the, you know,food integrity, collective and
Non GMO Project, and you as aperson, like, what do you think
is next for you guys?
You know, I mean, we're notspeaking too much for the
project as a whole. Yeah. Imean, I think there's, there's
(39:41):
two, there's two things that arethat are there? One is more
actionable insights, so that wecan continue to really make a
difference in the non GMO space.I mean, that there's new
analogies coming online. There'sall kinds of there's a lot of
stuff coming at us there that isvery high. Hard to interpret.
(40:02):
And I'm really glad you guyshave stuck your foot in the
ground and you're like, No, hereis where we draw the line,
because I think it's, it'sconfusing to me, and I have a
degree in science, and I work inthe food system, and I find it
daunting. So I can't evenimagine, you know, for
consumers, like, they need tohave like, a guiding light of
like, okay, I know that theseguys have thought this through,
(40:23):
and where do we draw thoselines? Yeah,
there's new work. There's newwords, new terms coming in,
like, precision, which, I mean,I like beer seems like a great,
I mean, it was great. Like, thatsounds like a really good beer,
but like, that's a that's athat's a GMO. I mean, there's
(40:44):
definite focus there. How do weget better, more actionable
insights through the data wehold on the non GMO verified
products to be able to actuallymake a more meaningful impact on
all the things that are comingonline there, both in the US and
globally. Because food supplysystem, yeah. And then really
starting to bring online thework around the Food Integrity
(41:08):
collective, to figure out whatthat looks like in a way that
can scale meaningfully, to takethe great work that's that's
already happened over the last17 years within GMO space and
the recognition that's there,the relationships and trust with
retailers and consumers andeaters and brands. And how do we
(41:30):
take that and not just let itatrophy over time or like become
the stodgy stewards of thatthing, but actually use that to
move into something that's evenmore regenerative, even more
impactful, and figure that outcollectively, like I mentioned
to them, it's that. I mean, theapproach here isn't just come up
with a new standard, get itwritten up, stand your label on
(41:54):
the path, and we're done. Kindof thing this is, this is
developmental, like, how do weall work to develop the systems,
the ecosystem, technology, waysof tracking this stuff, ways of
defining what's good, what'slike, what should be in there,
yeah,
yeah. And what don't we know?Yeah, I and I love that. You
know, I love the work there. Inall full disclosure, I do work
(42:18):
with the Food Integritycollective, because I really
believe in the work, even thoughI'm not, I'm not personally
working in the branded space asmuch anymore, because we've
really drifted to serving B toB, and value chain development
from seed to plate, and but itjust I I'm so pleased with how
it's coming in that way, whereit is like a very much like, we
(42:40):
want to hear everybody'sopinion. We don't want to come
in and say, Okay, here's the newrules. Everybody like, you know,
show up and shut up. This iswhat we're doing. It's, it's
very iterative, and that's superunique. And I just believe a lot
in the process. I think it's,it's really great. It's truly a
regenerative by design typeapproach, which is fantastic.
We're going to need that movingforward, because there's a lot
(43:02):
of complexity coming at us, andit's, it's great to see good
people working together to getthat done. So yeah,
like, what? We have these eightpedals, from, you know, minimal
processing to packaging to nonGMO pedals. But what? What is it
that people are doing? What isit that they're valuing? What is
(43:25):
it that they think add value forthe system they're closer
connected to the system? Todefine those think about it from
a technology and systemstandpoint, it's like, what
evidence do people do? Peoplelike farmers, ranchers,
producers, brands, eaters,consumers? Yeah, do they want to
have in the system and to havethat verified, what level of
(43:49):
rigor within each and then whatwe need to make sure is online
and but system, I don't meanlike the Non GMO Project,
building the system. We mightbuild pieces, but other players,
like, what are the who are allthe people that are doing that?
What other you know, who else isout there that's doing those
things? Because it's all part ofa system, and nobody's going to
(44:12):
build the one thing that doeseverything right.
100% agree. It's like the heromindset of like one well, like
Ethan, from how good he's like,there's no one ring that will
rule them all when it comes toregen. And I'm like, I have
stolen that line on manyoccasions, because it just, it's
(44:32):
so perfect. And, yeah, it's,it's just really refreshing to
see an organization that hassuch a position of legacy in the
market to push back on that andgo, no, there is going to be no
one ring ruling them all. Thisis a collaborative process, and
we need to work together as agroup. It's very cool. So I know
(44:54):
I would imagine our listenersare going to want to learn more
about these initiatives, becausechances are they might not know.
Know that there's this muchgoing on at Non GMO Project
headquarters, which is supercool. You already did give a
plug on Food Integritycollective and where people can
find out more information. We'llput that in the show notes as
far as you. Sean, if somebody'slike, I want to talk to somebody
(45:15):
who's regen tech, food systems.Guy, like, where can they reach
out and like, follow you, followyour work, maybe have a
conversation.
It's probably the best place tofind me. Yeah,
that's a good one.
John Kemp, on LinkedIn, therewas, it's a little hard to find
me because there was two famousbasketball players in the
Pacific Northwest, both namedSean Kemp, no figure, dominate
(45:39):
the stuff. But yeah, it's like,if somebody wants to get ahold
of me directly or through theinfo, I mean, they can contact,
they can get in touch with methrough just a general info at
the Non GMO Project.
Well, that's perfect. Okay,great. That's awesome. It's
amazing. How many conversationsget spurned from these podcasts,
(46:00):
like, you know, and whatnot. Soit's always wonderful when
people actually can reach outand follow up and ask questions
or contribute to theconversation. So for all of you
who are out there listening,thank you for joining us, and we
are going to wrap it up, butplease take a minute to share
this with your friends. Let yourfriends and community know that
Non GMO Project is stepping upto a whole nother level of
(46:23):
community engagement, and Iwould imagine that your friends
and family will be excited tohear that and and just make sure
to give us a rating if you havea second too. So thanks so much
for tuning in. Sean, thanks forjoining me and letting us know
what you're up to. And it's beenreally fun. I've enjoyed it. I
(46:44):
you. Thank you. All right. Well,now you've got one of your own
super fun All right, so we'llsee you next time everybody this
episode
of the regenerative by designpodcast is brought to you by
snack device nation elevatingclimate smart crops and
regenerative supply chainsthrough innovative products and
(47:04):
transparent market development.
Thank you for joining me on theregenerative by design podcast.
Please take a moment to reviewour channel on your favorite
podcasting service and sharethis session with your friends
and colleagues via LinkedIn,Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or
wherever you connect with yourcommunity.
(47:29):
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