Unlocking the Power of Millets in Regenerative Agriculture with Joanna Kane-Pataka

Episode Summary: In this episode, host Joni dives deep into the world of regenerative agriculture with guest Joanna Kane-Pataka, an expert in sustainable food systems. Together, they explore the incredible potential of millets, an ancient grain gaining attention as a climate-smart and nutritious staple crop. Joanna shares her journey from market research to working in non-profits and her discovery of millets while in India, which led to her advocacy for the crop through the Smart Food initiative.

Joanna and Joni discuss how millets fit into the larger regenerative agriculture framework, focusing on the “triple bottom line” that benefits farmers, the environment, and consumers. The episode touches on the challenges of promoting underutilized crops like millets, the importance of developing appealing food products, and the need for collaborative efforts in both marketing and research.

Joanna shares insights on millet's nutritional advantages, particularly for managing diabetes, and the exciting developments happening globally to push millets into mainstream food systems. The conversation also highlights India's leadership in millet innovation and how new technologies, like AI, can accelerate agricultural research and adoption.

Key Topics Discussed:

• Joanna’s background in non-profits and her passion for regenerative agriculture.
• The importance of millets as a climate-smart, underutilized crop with huge potential.
• The triple bottom line: how millets benefit farmers, the environment, and consumers.
• The Smart Food initiative and how it’s raising awareness for millets and other sustainable crops.
• The challenges of scaling millet production and promoting it in global food systems.
• The role of marketing, product development, and research in making millets more accessible.
• Insights on the nutritional benefits of millets, especially for managing diabetes.
• The global push for millet innovation, with India leading the way.
• The future of millet research, including its role in addressing food security and nutrition.

Guest Information:

• Joanna Kane-Pataka is a global advocate for sustainable food systems and the driving force behind several initiatives aimed at promoting underutilized crops like millets. Connect with Joanna on LinkedIn to learn more about her work in nutrition, agriculture, and market development.
• LinkedIn: Joanna Kane-Pataka

Resources Mentioned:

• Smart Food initiative
• India’s International Year of Millets campaign
• Research on millets and diabetes
• USDA organic market development grants
• Use of AI in agricultural innovation

Connect with Us:

• Follow the Regenerative by Design Podcast on [insert social media links].
• Share this episode with others to spread the word about the importance of regenerative agriculture and the potential of millets in our food systems.
• Leave a review and let us know your thoughts!

Call to Action: If you’re passionate about sustainable agriculture, share this episode with your network! You can also learn more about Joanna Kane-Pataka’s work and stay updated on her latest projects by connecting with her on LinkedIn.

Thank you for tuning in! Please leave a review and stay connected for more inspiring conversations on regenerative agriculture and sustainable food systems.

Regenerative by Design is hosted by Snacktivist. Snacktivist creates baking mixes and finished products that are allergy-friendly, soil, water, and carbon-focused, all while radically impacting human nutrition by transforming staple foods into more than j

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Joanne, hello, everyone. You arelistening to the regenerative by

(00:04):
design podcast where we will begetting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. Iam your host. Joni quinwell
Moore, join me on this journeyas we explore the stories of
individuals and organizationswho are working to realign our
food system with both humanhealth and the health of our
planet. Greetings everybody, andthank you so much for joining me

(00:25):
on the regenerative by designPodcast. Today. We have Joanna
Kane Potaka joining us, ofcourse, to talk about millets.
Because everybody knows that Iam super passionate about
millets. And if you've everfollowed my work out in the wide
open world, you know that I dospend a lot of energy
enthusiastically cheerleadingfor such an incredible

(00:46):
underutilized crops such asmillet plural. So welcome,
Joanna. I'm so excited to talkto you today.
Thanks, Joni. And you know, Ireally want to say it's
absolutely fantastic how you'retaking a personal initiative to
really spread the word onregenerative agriculture and
crops like like millet, whichare paradoxically actually you

(01:08):
you mentioned underutilized, butit was the ancient grain. Now
it's forgotten and future food,right?
It's funny how all things, alldo become new again. And it's
you know that again, it's partof that regenerative
transformation that is comingour way in food systems, where
we start to look to the past forthings that worked for millennia

(01:32):
and that we've conveniently justeliminated from our modern food
systems, to the detriment of ourhealth and to the detriment of
our soils and and planets aswell. So Joanna, to get started,
because you have such afascinating background, and over
the years, it's just been somuch fun learning about your
work, learning about your pastwork. Could you tell our

(01:54):
audience a little bit aboutwhere you came from and what
you've done and how you came tobe where you are today?
I to do that very quickly. Well,actually, I started in research
as a scientist, an economist andmarket research, but I always
had this driving, first to workoverseas, and I got two

(02:17):
opportunities at the same time.One was working commercial
marketing and sort of foodindustry in Australia, and the
other was to work overseas fornonprofits. And I must admit, I
chose to work overseas fornonprofits mainly because I
wanted to work overseas. But inthe meantime, I absolutely fell
in love with the work ofnonprofits and this whole

(02:38):
Agriculture and Food space,which is just so critical and
has become even bigger overtime, with the with climate
change and much more awarenessaround like you say, the
regenerative agriculture, theneed for diversity, the
challenges that we have withwater and soil. So, yeah, I just

(02:58):
fell in love with that, and thenI guess I've been really
privileged to work in so manycountries on so many of these
topics, and then I had in aspart of that student I had nine
years in India, and that's whereI'd never heard of millets
before, and that's where I firstheard about them and and really,

(03:22):
just started my very firstresearch on them, and and came
to realize, Wow, this is a goldfield that is wasn't brought up
on global attention. There werea number of people in
organizations pushing it, but itwas really, really under, under,
mis, under understood, yeah, thevalue of it. And so then I

(03:44):
became converted, and bigadvocate for, yeah, yeah,
it's fantastic. Now, you know,you've, you've really balanced
that line between the economics,the education, the nutrition
components. And you know, withsome of your more recent work,

(04:04):
you were really involved withinitiatives to raise awareness
around the role of crops likemillet and others for their for
the nutritional impact. I findthat work to be really great. I
love that it involved the wordsmart and thinking through food
choices, not only through thelens of nutrition, but also for
being climate smart. I'd love tolike for you to share a little

(04:27):
bit about that with our audienceas well.
Well, I'm a huge believer inreally taking more what I call a
triple bottom line, actually, inthe food system. So if you look
at the triple bottom line that acompany, a commercial company,
might take, and if you adaptthat for the food system,

(04:48):
basically what you get theprofit. The profit is a focus on
how the farmers, and especiallyas I've worked in nonprofits,
especially the smallholderfarmers, how it's viable for
them. I. Um, but then the planetis is in the food systems. It's
about climate change, and it'sabout the natural resource
management, the soil, the water,the biodiversity, and then that

(05:10):
people's side is about healthy,nutritious food, and it's about
inclusion as well, because ifyou're not bringing everyone
along in that solution, you'renot going to get to where you
need to go. But and it's aboutmaking sure we have solutions
that take all that into account.So that whole problem, which

(05:31):
makes it so much more complex,but we work in our silos of
disciplines, we're not going toget the best solution. We're not
going to understand the tradeoffs. Now, you're not always
going to achieve everything allat once, but you process and
understand how you what you cando about that and how that

(05:53):
impacts the way you moveforward. Yeah, and I love that
you've, you know, really given alot of attention to the role of
staples. I feel like Stapleshave long been overlooked. You
know, in here in the UnitedStates, where I'm based, like we
get these fad diets, and they'reoften about a superfood

(06:13):
ingredient or a radicalreduction of some entire food
group, but rarely do we reallyhave a focus on the quality and
diversity of our staples, likethe things that drive like 50%
of the average person's caloricintake. And you know, in your
work with a and, and for thoseof you who are listening, that's
the international Crops ResearchInstitute for the semi arid

(06:37):
tropics, there's a huge focus onthese staple crops, staple
grains, and really what it meansto re evaluate the nutritional
integrity of the things thatrepresent the lion's share of
our calories. And you know, andI think that that led a lot to
that smart food initiative aswell. I just feel like it's

(06:58):
something that's oftenoverlooked in contemporary
culture, maybe we just take it,take it for granted, like, you
know, in a place like the UnitedStates, where most of us have
ample access to calories, it'snot it's usually a challenge of
how to eliminate staple foodsbecause, but then, in so much of
the world where there is foodscarcity and every calorie

(07:18):
counts, Things like millets,like, really can make a huge
difference when you're lookingat mass population,
micronutrient deficiencies andthings like that. I would love
to have you just share some ofthe things that you experienced
in that work.
Well, okay, so I am a bigbeliever in impacting the
staples. Actually, I recentlystarted a movement called

(07:39):
Smarter staples. So now thereason for focusing on staples
is because, if you want to havebig impact and quickly, then you
need to do that through staples.But, and there's two, two
dimensions to that that I took.One is making our current
staples smarter and diversifyingour staples with small foods

(08:01):
like millet, and you need to doto do both. And yeah, so the
focus on staples is only becausethat's how you can have big
impact, and especially acrossAsia and Africa, where, as you
sort of mentioned, staples arehuge part of the diet there. And
even as diets are changing,staples are still really

(08:21):
significant part of the diet,right? So particularly important
and can have very big impact,and about the making our current
staples smarter. So it's aboutthat, that triple bottom line,
again, how you make them betterfor the farmer, for you, the
consumer and and for the planet,and then with diversifying the

(08:45):
staples. Well, that's where Iwork with millets, because I I
termed what I called a foodsystem divide, and this is what
was the biggest challenge fordiversifying our staples, just
like you have an educationdivide or a digital divide. So
what happened with the staplesis there was a huge emphasis on

(09:08):
investment and attention to justa very, very small diversity of
guides. And of course, what Icall the Big Three, the wheat,
maize and race, received most ofthe attention. It was the
research. It was the governmentpolicy support, private
industry, investment, productdevelopment, even the
development aid, the vastmajority went to the big three.
Now, when you invest insomething, you develop it, and

(09:31):
it does well, and the bettersomething does, the more it
attracts further investment, andthen it does and so on. So of
course, they have really welldeveloped value chains, really
well developed consumerawareness and products, etc, and
they're on big scale. So when welooked at how can we diversify

(09:51):
the staples, we realized that,okay, we really need to focus on
just one or two staples at atime and try to bring them back.
Into mainstream. Because if youtried to do it with 50 different
statements, overwhelming, yeah,and it's hard enough, and
there's, like you said, theinfrastructure gap is

(10:13):
significant. And so to, youknow, approach a value chain and
suddenly say, okay, not only dowe need to have more access to
like, the proper dehulling orspecialized
processing capacities, you know,like one or two at a time or
clusters that need the similarkind of access to value chain

(10:38):
processing makes a lot moresense. It's just a lot more
doable, especially in areas thatdon't have a lot of access to
capital. I mean, even here inthe US, our processing sector is
grossly undercapitalized, andUSDA recognized that recently
and set aside investmentspecifically to really take on

(10:58):
that messy middle like, whereare the gaps. And the gaps that
were revealed were we had verylimited access to processing of
small cereals and specialtycrops, very limited processing
for things that need, likespecialized segregation, like
organic, allergen free, etc, andalso just in certain areas that
just were underrepresented, asfar as having access to

(11:20):
processing in their geographicalareas. So I'm grateful to the
USDA for responding to that herein the United States, but I know
that that's something that isexperienced globally, because
we've really lost a lot of smallscale processing in the last 50
years, and I know you've seenthat firsthand in other
countries as well.
Yeah, well, I did a lot of workwith SMEs and these sort of

(11:42):
startup processing companies inMillet and the reason was that
what we saw with the millets is,and this is back a while ago
now, the very first gap wasdriving the awareness and the
demand side. We really saw thatyou needed to do that with
modern products and make it moreavailable and accessible on the

(12:03):
market. And of course, the SMEs,like yourself, are really the
pioneers. I have so so muchregard, high regard, to the
really tough challenge. And Ialways used to say, these SMEs
struggle just as much as thefarmers struggle. It's really
100%
Yeah, it is really tough, yeah,and marketing is so such a huge

(12:24):
part of that, and you've spent alot of your life in that
marketing communication role,and you know, honestly, no like,
you can have something that isthe most incredible superfood,
Prop, economical value chainseverything, and it will still
fall flat without the rightaccess to marketing and
communication channels. And whathave you found to be effective

(12:48):
in raising awareness forunderutilized crops like
millets?
Okay, there's no magic bullet.Of course, you and you know
yourself, you just keep ploddingaway. But you Yeah, so will the
approach that I took with thesmart food sort of global
movement make turning it into aglobal movement, turning it into
something that could be owned byothers, it wasn't just owned by

(13:10):
the organization that I workedfor, and that's why we branded
it separately, and we created aambassador program with it, a
council of from peopleorganizations across Africa and
Asia. We then use that to drivethe message. But the aim, for me
was because we couldn'tinfluence consumers. We weren't

(13:32):
that sort of organization, oryou'd need a huge budget if
you're talking consumers. Yeah,aim was to influence everyone
along that value chain andinfluencers, so whether all the
way through to the farmers, thefood processors, the
researchers, the developmentagencies, the NGOs, making

(13:54):
everybody aware of the value ofmillets and the potential. And
now we have to be careful,because we were all talking
about potential back then, andwe ran a lot of really, really
fun activities as well, like wedid a reality TV show in Kenya
that we ran where with sort ofcelebrities and chefs, and it

(14:18):
attacked a lot of young people,and They had to cook with
millets and legumes and productsI've never cooked with before.
And even the judges judging ithad never cooked with a lot of
these products before. It wasreally fun. And we've got some
countries to start their ownannual millet fair. We did. And
of course, the the ultimate inthe end, which I think was a

(14:40):
good turning point forawareness. It wasn't turning
point for the whole industry.Was we initiated getting that
international year of milletgoing. So it got a minister of
agriculture from India come withus. We went to FAO. We did all
the rounds. Because when you'vegot a minister, all the doors
open and. Ah, right. And we'vetried to find out, how do you

(15:04):
run an international How do youget an international year
approved? Got all the insidesort of help on how to do it.
And then we had to put throughthe the recommendation through
the Indian government. And thenwe had so many people helping,
so many people that really gotexcited by this. As you know,
the Indian government would justamazing. I've never seen an

(15:26):
international year with suchstrong support from the
government right up to the PrimeMinister. I mean, India was
edible. It would beunbelievable. Yeah,
that's incredible. I think sotoo. Yeah, it is a case study,
and you know, I was watching itfrom afar, you know, unfold, and

(15:46):
just seeing this massivemobilization that was well
executed because it seemed tohit so many different verticals
that are needed to be activatedsimultaneously to raise
awareness. And then, lo andbehold, here we are not quite a
year after the UN year ofmillets has, you know, finished,

(16:07):
and we have McDonald's launchinga millet based bun at Indian
McDonald's, which I'm not thebiggest fan of McDonald's, and
I'm and I not, you know,whatever, to each their own, but
it's not a place that I chooseto eat. But I was absolutely
flabbergasted when I saw thepromotional materials come out
around the millet hamburger bun.And I thought, this is, this is

(16:30):
like proof that that was so wellexecuted that we even got the
attention of a massivemultinational, you know, like,
like, top of the pile entitylike McDonald's. I mean, when it
comes to large internationalentities, I mean, it's about as
big as it gets, and that theyare responding and taking
action, you know, we'll see howit goes as far as consumer

(16:51):
adoption, but the fact that theyeven did that at all, I just
found I was so tickled when Isaw that. I couldn't believe it.
Yeah,
no, I was really impressed. Andyou've got to think, so, what's
behind that? You know, just thestrong Indian government support
for millets right up to thePrime Minister, they made a
difference in the Indiangovernment, the cftri, iimr, all

(17:13):
the big research organizationsin India would have really been
behind that as well. It's areally good example how advocacy
has led to some big change.Yeah, yeah. And, you know,
I agree, yeah. And in speakingwith innovators in India and

(17:34):
talking to some of the women ledinitiatives that they've created
brands that are doing all kindsof product innovation. And as
someone who's been here doingMilla innovation, I was a little
jealous when I learned about theresources that were available
like to Milla innovators, as faras loans to create new products

(17:55):
and to get product design,packaging, r, d to the finish
line, and processing, microscaleprocessing, we definitely don't
have anything like that here.It's been minimal support, and I
think that that's really helpedignite a grassroots movement
that allows them to actually getthings like millets into

(18:16):
popularized products likecrackers and cookies and you
name it. I mean, I was blownaway at the degree of like
diversity in the different foodinnovations that are coming out
of India, and with all of themillets. And,
you know, India definitely is aleader now in that sort of
startup space, being one of thepillars there. Actually, April

(18:39):
said it was probably 15 or moreyears ago, started up the very
first food incubator in India.And then the Indian government
got excited by that, and so theyasked ikrasat to help them set
up, I think they set up about 13or more around India. And of
course, it's just blossomedafter that. India really got the

(19:00):
government really got behindunderstanding how important
startups and SMEs are. But whatI what I found is, okay, there's
fantastic support now forsomeone to start up, the
challenge becomes to scale, andI've seen so many of these SMEs

(19:21):
really struggle, and I don'tthink we have the right support
mechanisms in place for scaling.And I don't leave always just
leave SMEs alone. Sure, if theyget the big investment, they can
scale, but it's always relianton that huge investment, and
it's a really challenging timein between. And I think,
absolutely, I think there'ssolutions of doing more in what

(19:44):
I call collective marketing. Soyou bring it together, you have
umbrella brand, umbrella tocriteria that you've got to be
part of. It's almost like youcertification to it, to being
part of that. So it's not justrandom products.
Yeah. Right? There's a cohesivepurpose. Yeah,
so I really think that's a wayof the future to support more

(20:08):
SMEs.
I agree, especially when you'recreating a category essentially
around like a rediscoveredingredient or something that is
new and different. Because weknow that if one brand comes in
and tries to champion like abrand new ingredient. That's a
really tough road. It'sexpensive, your tip of the
spear. People can bedistrustful, but if suddenly

(20:29):
they see it from five differententities at the same time,
they're like, Wait a minute.Maybe this is a thing. Maybe we
should try this. Maybe we shouldbe a little more receptive to
the marketing materials. And soI think that aggregative
approach is really important forbuilding long term acceptance
and and shift in cultural normsthat adopt these underutilized

(20:52):
or opportunity crops.
And if you use a parallel, eventhough there's quite a few
differences in India, they'vebeen very successful with pharma
producer organizations. There'sno branding to that. It's just
aggregation. But if you could dosomething with SMEs, and it's

(21:14):
bringing them together, butthere is branding. They have
their individual brand, but youhave the this umbrella brand,
and and then you do thecollective marketing, because
individually, they can't affordthe level of marketing that's
needed, right,
right? Yeah, marketing isn't, isan extremely big expense. And,
you know, there's a, there's,there's grassroots marketing

(21:35):
that can be really effective,but marketing strategy is a
science and an art, both. And Ihave to say, you know, I've
learned the hard way of like,how hard it is to try to grow
something without access toquality marketing, and without
access to the capital, to higherquality marketing. It's like
you're just banging your headagainst a wall all day long

(21:57):
because you have to just kind ofcobble things together and, you
know, hope for the best, andthen you're just, it's like,
literally based on luck, not onscience, and not setting
yourself up for success. And,you know, a lot of a lot of
people, especially innovatorsand under, you know,
underrepresented groups,socially and racially, but also
in underrepresented commodities.It's like a double whammy, you

(22:20):
know, you're just, it's likepeople are scared to invest the
money to drive discovery ofsomething new. You know,
talking marketing, the otherarea I see that's challenging
the SMEs, is the productdevelopment side. Now the big
companies have a team of goodtechnologies, yeah, and I've

(22:41):
found it's variable product,millet products on the market,
and it's really, really hard toget it right, and that's really
going to make the difference tothe industry taking off on it.
And at the end of the day,people are just going to like
the product. They have to wantto eat it. And actually, for the
bit of time that I worked in therice industry, that was

(23:03):
something that really hit hometo me. When I'm in Asia and
people just want to eat rice. Itdoesn't feel like a meal if they
don't have rice, they love rice,and they always say rice is
live. They just want to eat it.And I always used to think,
okay, how can we get there withmillet that they're not saying

(23:24):
I'm going to eat it because Ihave a health problem, or
because I have diabetes, orbecause I want to lose weight,
or because of any other reason.I'm going to eat it because I
really, really want to eat it. Ilove enjoying it, like I've been
creating.
I love a whole cooked sorghum,and I love eating it. And, like,
honestly, like, I I haven't hadit. I've been really busy the

(23:44):
last few days and working verylong hours, like, for the last,
well, for the last few years,but like, especially, like, the
last week, um, and I was like,Man, I'm actually craving it.
Like, There's something I'mcraving in that, and that's a
cool thing. And my kids now,even, like, my daughter's in
college, and she's like, Mom,I'm just actually craving, like,

(24:05):
just plain cooked sorghum with,like, you know, like a home
cooked meal. And I was like,Okay, that's interesting,
because, you know, we've beeneating that in our family for
years, and kids come over thathave never had it, and they're
like, What is this? And it takesthem some time to warm up to it,
but then once you do, suddenly,you crave it. It becomes part of
that fabric. And I think alsoyour gut microbiome, it starts

(24:28):
to crave those things as well,because it does create a shift
in in all of those things. And,you know, honestly, in in trying
to figure out what those earlylittle catch points are for
people like you said, you know,eating for diabetes or eating
for health like I feel like thenutritional story that's
associated with millets isprobably the best way to lead,

(24:50):
at least in the United Statesand in these markets, to try to
get people to step out of theircomfort zone and try millet for
the first
time. What do you think? Yeah,no, I absolutely agree it would
be crazy not to leverage thatamazing advantage that it has,
but you can't do it without agreat delicious, yeah, but it

(25:12):
gives it a competitiveadvantage. And of course, there
is less known. Of course, thereare fewer studies done on
millets compared to otherproducts. So we were really
privileged to lead what Ibelieve is the world's largest
nutrition studies on millet,including sorghum as well. So we

(25:36):
did, yeah, so we did systematicreviews, meta analyzes, which is
basically studying the studies.If you just do one more study,
you've just got another lot ofdata, which is courses needed,
badly needed. But this wassaying, well, let's study
everything that's out there andsee what we can actually claim
and what you can't claim, andwhere are the gaps. And so we

(25:58):
had, we had a big team globally.So I've got a shout out, because
I can't claim it myself. We hada lead nutritionist, Dr Anita.
We had the Indian NationalInstitute of nutrition with us.
We had Ian Gibbons, who was fromReading University in the UK. We
had a medical doctor on the teamwho was also a pediatrician, Raj
pandari. We had a statisticianfrom Japan. We had a couple of

(26:23):
other nutritionists, Rosie fromfrom Africa, and we had sweater,
who'd been UNICEF, and others.So we had a really amazing which
is important to have, thatdiversity really
is. I mean, it's like acelebrity team in the scheme of
things, when it comes to likeglobal nutrition expertise,
like, those are well known namesin in that community, you know?

(26:46):
Yeah, yeah, no, no. And we werereally lucky. And actually a lot
of these people put their owntime voluntarily into this,
because we all believed in it.We got some funding, thankfully,
to the Odisha government inIndia. And he said, Okay, let's
get this done and finished. AndMarie, who's like an Asian
network supported us through it,so we had a fantastic team. So

(27:06):
all these systematic reviews, sowe looked at diabetes that
actually had the largest numberof studies, and it did show that
consuming millet did reduce therisk of type two diabetes, and
it did reduce the blood glucoselevels. So that was fantastic

(27:27):
news, and it definitely is oneof the big drivers why some
people move to millet.
I mean, especially in the dayand age where the vast majority
of adults are at risk ofdeveloping or have already
developed type two diabeteseverywhere in the world. Like,
it's a, it's a thing.
It's huge. And every region inthe world is increasing with the

(27:51):
it
is, yeah, it's a it's becomingevident that it's very few
populations are immune. And whenI, when you first sent me the
meta analysis, like I had, I hadread a few of the studies that
were listed in there and butalways in isolation, and so I
was that's partly what got meexcited about millets in the

(28:12):
first place, when I was workingin the ICU, like, you know, this
is intensive care unit. A lot ofpeople are there for
complications of diabetes. And Iwas a diabetic educator, and I
thought, Why in the world are wenot recommending this as a
replacement staple to ourpatients that are managing a,
you know, a diabe, a diabeticfriendly diet, and managing

(28:35):
their condition? And it's whatled me to it. So when I saw that
you guys had taken a large bodyof that and indeed, able to
validate that it wasn't just aone off study, it was literally
consistent. And I think thatthat is so important, and we
need to talk about that more.I've been I've need to
evangelize it more too, but froma brand positioning, you had to

(28:56):
be really careful, because ifyou're sharing information about
something having, you know,effect on something like
diabetes, you can get in a lotof trouble in the United States,
like, you know, like, it'salmost like you need to have it,
like, two steps removed, so thatway you're not making false
claims, right? Yeah, but I willsay, I mean, there's lots more

(29:16):
things that we looked at, notjust diabetes, but for diabetes,
and for all of them, wedefinitely need more studies
at the length of other foods andthe variations, like, how is it
going to impact different ethnicgroups, different types of
millets, the different varietiesof millets. I mean, no, no.

(29:39):
Study started to go down to thevariety of millet. And one thing
that we did identify, and we dida whole study on it, is how much
the nutrition value of milletsvary based on just the variety,
not just the type. So a type ofmillet is proto millet, dull
millet, etc, but then withinthat you've got lots of

(29:59):
varieties. Yeah, and so what wedid is actually we, as part of
all these studies, we then alsoput together a nutrition table
for millet, but showing thevariation. So we collected as
many different varieties fromdifferent countries in the
world, and looked at thenutrition levels, and then sort

(30:20):
of created a range. So we don'tthink we should use any of these
other nutrition tables thatexist, where they put one one
piece of data. They say, this ishow much iron millet. You cannot
do that, and it varies, as youknow, even how you grow it. It
varies. Again, we couldn't go tothat diff in our studies, but

(30:42):
that's where more and morestudies are needed.
I agree 100% and it's sointeresting now in our work with
the Montana project that I'minvolved in, it's a USDA Organic
markets development grant, andwe're developing a pro Sam
millet program there. And youknow, my goal is that it will

(31:05):
become like a culinary breedingprogram where we're selecting
and identifying for the firsttime in North America, what
varieties of millet actuallyperform best for culinary
application and have the bestnutrient profile. You know, for
for our desired markets, it'sliterally like the wild west out
there, like, you know, you've,you've uncovered some materials,

(31:28):
Dr Deepak Santra in Universityof Nebraska, Lincoln has done
some, some preliminaryevaluation there as well, just
looking at the differences. Butit's really still the Wild West,
and I think that that is one ofthe reasons why it's had a lot
of trouble with adoption inmainstream food systems and
manufacturing just there, theflavor profiles are all over the

(31:50):
place, the performance profilesare all over the place. And so
we're really excited that we'llbe one of the very first
programs here in North Americathat's like really looking at
nutrition and culinaryperformance, in addition to all
the awesome things that prosomillet, this is a proso millet
project brings to the tablelike, as far as drought
resiliency and playing a role inorganic crop rotations in the

(32:14):
regions that we've targeted,
it's like a science. It is. I'mreally pleased to hear that
because, yeah, the industry, themillet industry, is very
immature in that regard, wheat.I mean, every big company will
know exactly which variety, ifthey're making which master or
which bread or everything.Whereas we don't have any of

(32:35):
that in millet, we're so farbehind in the investment in
research, which actually was akey part behind when I was
trying to drive demand, it wasabout also getting more research
funding into that, because wecan't develop the industry
without that. And even if youlook at the gene banks, I mean,

(32:55):
there is a gold mine there stillthat is not explored for the
military. Profile, you can goand what's really there. It's so
funny, and which is exciting.It's only gotten very blossom
and get more amazing, amazingthings come out.
I agree. And, you know, and thenyou start thinking about the,

(33:17):
you know, sophistication in themarket. And we're now, you know,
we are having this sudden trendin really paying attention in
the US markets, at least, youknow, with the nutrient density
conversations like, Can we, canwe start having medically
tailored meals that really canproduce the effects that we want
from a medical evaluationstandpoint, and then create

(33:39):
systems that deliver consistentmeals to people on, you know, so
that it's a kind of a morecontrolled environment. And this
is where I think millets willeventually really hit their
stride in North America. Butit's been, it's been very, very
difficult. I mean, I've spenteight years trying to build
markets for millets. And, youknow, recently, kind of, we
narrowed our focus to what itseemed like the industry was

(34:02):
open to discussing, but I thinkthat we've just been too early.
So it's great that we have theopportunity now to back up a
little bit and focus on thatgermplasm, agronomy, farming
system and end use case from anutritional standpoint or
culinary application standpoint.And I'm really enjoying it like
it's actually a lot of fun.

(34:25):
Actually, the good news is, eventhough millets are further
behind from those big staples,with the research level, we can
leapfrog a bit, because there'sso much new technology, like, if
you can use the eye for thebetter faster, sort of rolling
through the gene banks, all thenew gene editing, the speed
breeding, all the genomics, allthe work that you can do that

(34:47):
will make the breeding so muchfaster. We do have the advantage
of taking being able to use thatto go a little faster than
others, 100%
and again. Think that that's whyhaving more collaborative
process is also super important.Because, you know, you look at

(35:07):
farming in the far north or farsouth, and it's seasonal, you
get one shot a year to figure itout. But then if you have
breeding programs, and you'reworking with people on, you
know, both sides of the planet,and then also in, you know, semi
tropical environments, wherethey have a longer growing
season, suddenly we can expeditevariety trials in different

(35:30):
regions of the world and never,like, lose that winter, like
that seasonal gap that reallyslows down a lot of our regional
breeding programs that arespecific to our regions. I mean,
if we're wanting to go forspecies that are adaptive for
this specific climate, we'rekind of stuck with a seasonal
problem. But if we're breedingfor nutrition and culinary
application, I mean, we can, wecan really step that forward

(35:53):
with a collaborative effort.
So the different geographicareas and ecosystems. Then if
India is a brilliant example,and it would be a gold mine too,
because you've got millets thatgrow right down south in, say,
telonado, where it's thetropics, you've got it growing
in the center of the dry land.You've got it growing in

(36:14):
Rajasthan, which is a desert.And then you've got up in
Uttarakhand, where it's it's themountains, way higher, higher
geographically than, you know,Nepal and so, wow, amazing
variation. So it just goes toshow there's so much exciting to

(36:34):
explore for millet. Yeah,
absolutely. I think that'salways a good push back, like
when I'm, you know, havinglively discussions with
colleagues about, you know, wehave to do genetic modification
in order to advance foodoptions. And I'm like, Wait,
what about the other 90% ofplants and crops that we've not
even explored from a germ plasmstandpoint? And, you know, and

(36:58):
you know, people often, too,also say, Oh, well, they're less
efficient. You know, they'reless productive. And I'm like,
Have you ever evaluatedproductivity of sorghum as a
commodity against othercommodities like rice and wheat?
In our neck of the woods outhere, we've had some really
successful sorghum trials wherethe sorghum has outperformed

(37:19):
wheat in yield, and so it reallystarts to push that paradigm.
But sorghum has a lot morebreeding um than than proso
millet has that foxtail is andPearl. I mean, they're all
lagging behind, but to me, thatis a really great example of
like, what lays ahead as wedrive that innovation and and
develop the varieties that havethe yield and have the

(37:39):
efficiency, have the culinaryapplication. And you know what
the potential is? It's literallylike the to me, it's very
provocative, and I'm surprisedthat not more, you know,
breeders are getting involvedwith it. Yeah. Well, we
need the science, but I think ifwe can marry that science with
also working with tradition andcountries and areas where

(38:00):
they've been growing, growingthe millets, they have the
traditional varieties. Knowledgehow we can leverage both, I
think, is it's going to be goodwe move the industry forward.
How we move forward? Becausebefore, when I talked about that
food system divide and big threethat are well supported, we also
have to learn from the bigthree, the weak maize, and learn

(38:24):
from their successes, and learnfrom where things weren't done
right, to make sure we get itright for millets, you know, we
still could end up with milletthat are mono cropped, that are
destroying the soil, that areoverusing the chemicals, not
Using the regenerativeagriculture. And we can end up
with millet that are polishedand refined, like rice as well.

(38:46):
At the moment, they're reallyhealthy because majority are
sold as a whole grain, andthat's another big thing I like,
pushes a whole grain and thevalue of that, yeah. So we have
to be careful how we develop theindustry and guide it, and learn
from, you know, the lessons thathave from the past. Now, that's

(39:08):
a really good point, you know,it's, it's interesting, because
in this process where we are,you know, really just beginning
this pro so millet value chaindevelopment and and we've been
targeting organic farmers in thenorthern Great Plains and Inland
Northwest. And you know, it'sthey're so hungry for crop

(39:28):
rotations because they know thattheir soil is becoming depleted
because the market is onlydemanding a couple of crops. And
you know, they have to growthose crops because that's
what's paying the bills. And soit's been really neat talking to
farmers across a very largegeographical area about their
needs and and in the role thatthese diverse grains like

(39:50):
millets. I mean, proso millet isthe subject of that
conversation. But of course, wetalk about Pearl and foxtail
under you know, underrepresentedwe. Groups like flax, legumes,
like all that diversity, andreally that's whenever I'm
talking to farmers, that is thetakeaway. Story is like, bring
me a market that rewards me fordiversity, and we will be more

(40:13):
effective as farmers. That's thetakeaway. And I think, I think
millets play a huge role inthat,
absolutely. Because even when wetalk about diversifying the
staples, it's not with justanything. And that was the value
of millets that was good for youthe planet, and the farmer
vantages to it that it's a goodone to bring in for

(40:38):
diversification. But you know,we've talked a lot about driving
the demand in the markets, whichis where I had focused on with a
lot of my work under the smartfood movement. But we've really
come to now feeling like we needto also spend a huge amount of
time making sure it's thenreally, really viable for the
farmer, which isn't just themarket, it's that whole

(40:59):
productivity. Because, like, weare saying, the science and the
research is behind with thelevel that we've been able to do
on it, and we really need somebreakthroughs to take it to that
next level. Absolutely,
you know, one of the things I'vediscovered in this, you know,
kind of preliminary research andinto these, you know, the

(41:19):
questionnaires with the farmersis they don't have access to
agronomy, and agronomists thatthat are knowledgeable about
growing crops, like prosoMiller, and so that's a gap that
we've identified. And you know,because they're in very remote
parts the United States wherethere's really low populations,
in general, we're exploring waysthat we can develop like chat

(41:41):
GPT model modules that aretrained in um agronomy for that
crop that are like, as close toas as you know, close to soil
type and as close to region aspossible, and then working with
extension and stuff, so that wecan provide them with tools,
like, so that they're out in thefarm, and they're like, I don't
know what to do about This. Idon't have an agronomist to

(42:02):
call. They can actually use atechnical service provider chat
and at least have something tokind of walk them through. Like,
is this ready? Do I plant ityet? What do I need to do? And,
you know, again, like technologyfor this technology sake, can be
a big waste of time and money,but technology, when it creates
democratized access to educationand resources that will up the

(42:25):
odds of them succeeding and derisk them. You know, adding that
diversity and planting that newcrop, to me, that's a game
changer.
I love that idea, and using theAI, we have to do that to move
ahead. So that's
needed access. So yeah, I loveit. Joanna, you and I, whenever

(42:46):
we get on a call together, Ithink we could just talk for
hours. So I know I need to go toAustralia or wherever you're
located, because you do getaround quite a bit, and either
that or you can come to Idahoand visit sometime. It's
beautiful, but, um, but where,you know, I have a feeling our
listeners would love to learnmore, and, you know, follow your

(43:09):
work, maybe reach out to youwith questions. How should they
do that? What's the best placeto read more about your work?
LinkedIn is the best. Um, no oneelse has a surname the same as
mine in the world. Yeah,
you and I both, keeps us honest,right?
Yeah. So, no, okay, use the bestand connect and chat anytime.

(43:33):
Very happy,
yeah. And honestly, justGoogling you is amazing. Like,
you're one of those people thatif you Google, like, there's
reams of interesting stuff thatcomes up, really, in that whole
realm of nutrition, humanhealth, Marketing, Economics and
agriculture, which is just a,thank goodness, becoming a more
popular topic all the time. SoI'm happy that Google is

(43:56):
representing your work well inthat regard. So we'll make sure,
we'll put, we'll put some linksin the in the show notes, so
that people can reach out to youand follow your work. And you
know, for those of you who arelistening, passionate millet
enthusiasts and more, pleasetake a minute to share this
podcast so other people canlearn about it and learn about
the extraordinary work thatJoanna has done with her career.

(44:20):
And thank you so much forlistening. Make sure to leave a
review as well. And thank you,Joanna, so great to see you.
Thanks, Joanie,
this episode of the regenerativeby design podcast is brought to
you by snacktiv nation,elevating climate smart crops
and regenerative supply chainsthrough innovative products and
transparent market development.Thank

(44:40):
you for joining me on theregenerative by design podcast.
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