February 16, 2022 • 48 mins
This episode of ReligionWise features a conversation between Carrie Duncan, Program Specialist for the Institute for Religious and Cultural Understanding and Jill Peterfeso, the Eli Franklin Craven and Minnie Phipps Craven Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Guilford College.
In this conversation, we consider how an element of American popular culture, the Disney corporation and in particular Walt Disney World, can be better understood using the tools of religious studies. Dr. Peterfeso not only teaches on the confluence of Disney and religion, but took a group of students to the Magic Kingdom as part of the “Fantastic Journeys” curriculum at Guilford.
This conversation demonstrates a different way of thinking about religion itself and asks you to consider similarities and differences between traditional religion and broader cultural experiences.
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Episode Transcript
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Chip Gruen (00:09):
Welcome to ReligionWise the podcast where
we feature educators,researchers and other
professionals, discussing topicson religion and their relevance
to the public conversation. Myname is Chip Gruen. I'm the
Director of the Institute forReligious and Cultural
Understanding at MuhlenbergCollege and I will be the host
for this podcast.
Our guest today is Dr. JillPeterfeso. The Eli Franklin
(00:33):
Craven and Minnie Phipps CravenAssociate Professor of Religious
Studies at Guilford College inGreensboro, North Carolina. Dr.
Peterfeso studies Americanreligions, American Catholicism,
Mormon studies, and gender andsexuality in religion. And among
her other interests is the ideaof popular American religion.
(00:54):
This installment of ReligionWiseis a little different from the
previous episodes for a fewreasons. First, we have a guest
host today, Dr. Carrie Duncan,who is the Program Specialist
for the Institute for Religiousand Cultural Understanding. She
is also a Ph.D. in religiousstudies. The other difference is
the topic itself. Dr. Peterfesoand Dr. Duncan are discussing
(01:16):
Disney, which is not necessarilywhat you think of when you think
about religion or religiousstudies. So before we start the
conversation, I wanted to offera few comments on what to listen
for and what to think about aswe listen to the conversation.
If you've ever taken a religiousstudies class before, chances
are you've had a conversation atsome point about defining
(01:40):
religion. What is religion? Andit sounds like a relatively easy
question to answer. But once youstart to do it by giving
criteria, such as belief in God,an ethical system, the building
of a community, you will seethat there will be exceptions to
each one of them. That not everyreligion hinges on, for example,
(02:04):
belief in God, not everyreligion necessitates a
community of believerspracticing together, not every
religion thinks about orconsiders ritual in the same
way. And so when we're guidingstudents through this question,
we will often turn to what iscalled a functional definition
of religion. And in a functionaldefinition, we don't think about
(02:24):
what religion is, but we thinkabout what it does, what does it
do for the people whoparticipate in it? Once you
start doing that, you can startbuilding a set of functions
things that religion does forpeople. So for example, provides
order and meaning for theirlives, provides answers to the
questions of "why am I here?",or "what does it mean to be
human?", or "what is the goodlife?" Building a community or
(02:49):
providing an ethical system-there are a lot of things that
religion does for people that wecan describe as these functions.
Once you build a definitionbased on those functions, you
then realize that there areother things in the world beyond
what we call traditionalreligion that serve those same
functions. There are other waysof building order and meaning in
(03:10):
your life. There are other waysof building ethical systems,
there are other ways of buildingcommunity that don't fall under
that umbrella of traditionalreligion. A lot of religious
studies scholars have recognizedthat Disney is one of them. If
you've watched any Disney film,for example, you'll see that it
gives very clear direction onhow to live in the world, how to
(03:33):
be happy, how to find meaning inthe world. The other
consideration here is that ascertain segments of the United
States population, globalpopulation, become less
traditionally religious, wemight ask ourselves, do these
people who don't identify with aparticular religious tradition
not need to build meaning andorder in their lives, have a
(03:56):
sense of community, have aethical system, all of these
functions that weretraditionally filled by
religious practice? Andobviously the answer to that is
no, they don't just jettisonideas of meaning and order. So
how do they fill them? Where doideas of meaning and order come
(04:16):
from? And again, another answerto this is popular culture,
media, the Disney Corporation,the Disney parks, the Disney
movies is another place that wemight go to think about meaning
and order, or conversationsabout meaning and order in the
world. So without further ado, Igive you the conversation
(04:38):
between Dr. Carrie Duncan andDr. Jill Peterfeso.
Carrie Duncan (04:44):
Welcome to ReligionWise.
Jill Peterfeso (04:45):
Thank you for having me.
Carrie Duncan (04:47):
I'm excited to talk with you today about your
recent adventure taking studentsto Disney World. Can you tell us
a little about the class and thetrip?
Jill Peterfeso (04:54):
It's true. I was at Disney World, and during a
pandemic with 18 students, so ithas been an adventure to say the
least. You realize very early onas a religious studies scholar,
maybe even as a major inreligious studies, I like to
think our students realize thistoo, that defining religion is
almost impossible. And that'sone of the fun projects of
(05:15):
religious studies trying tofigure out okay, what exactly do
we mean by religion? Whatexactly counts as religion? And
with something like Disney, howis religion different from
culture? Those boundaries arereally permeable. When we
started to talk, when studentsand I started to talk through
things in my first Disney class,which was called Discovering
(05:36):
Disney, some themes started topop out. For instance, so Disney
and the way it educates childrenfrom an early age. So for
instance, there's this Marxistcritic of Disney named Henry
Giroux who looks at Disney assort of indoctrinating children
in the way that it introduceschildren not only to certain
versions of fairy tales, butalso like a very capitalist way
(06:00):
of being in the world. And itjust started to strike me and my
students that, oh, this soundslike other things, like
Christianity and going to Sundayschool at an early age, or I had
students who'd grown up in theJewish tradition, who said,
Yeah, this, like just from beinga child, these are the important
traditions, and Disney has someof its own "traditions" or
traditions that families makearound Disney. So there was
(06:21):
that. The issue of Disney andEmpire started to come up a lot
in my classes, I think it'sbecause I had a great creative
student who was taking a classon Empire. And she just kept,
every day in class she's like,Disney's just like an empire,
and she would quote from herreadings in her Empire course.
And you can't not think about aChristian empire as well. I am,
my focus is on Christianity, soI tend to cite things in terms
(06:44):
of Christianity. So Empire wasalso there. You know, some
students would initially pushback and say, well, but Disney
is about making money, andreligion is not about making
money. And I would say, Well,hold on, let's look at the
history of disestablishment inAmerica, without having a
state-church established by theConstitution and our founding
(07:05):
fathers, the religiousmarketplace was opened up by the
late 18th century. And so thisis why you get the Second Great
Awakening starting in 1800sAmerica because all of these
different religions are sort ofvying for attention. So
actually, yes, buying andselling is woven into the
American religious story. Sothose are just a few of the
(07:26):
examples that I started torecognize in conversations with
students. And I think combinedwith that and my own interest in
American culture, Americanreligious culture, we can't
ignore the growing number ofnones, n-o-n-e-s, that are
currently reporting on forms andcensuses and other like Pew
surveys right now. And I thinkthe number is approaching 20%,
(07:49):
which is really a very fastgrowth in the number of people
who say they don't have areligious affiliation. If we
look at some of the definitionsof religion and what religion
does and how religion emerged,we have to think that something
might possibly be replacing theformal organized religions if
the number of nones are, infact, correct. So what what is
(08:12):
religious for people who aren'treligious? Or what might be
serving that function? So thatwas a question we started to ask
sort of as a class, because Iwould have plenty of students
who would say, Well, I don't goto church. I'm not religious.
But they are religious aboutcertain things they would later
admit.
Carrie Duncan (08:28):
So it sounds like you have taught this class
several times, many times now,without this new experiential
component. What do you think itadded? What did your class that
you took to Disney World get outof participation in place? That
being there brings to the class?
Jill Peterfeso (08:49):
Yeah, it's hard to imagine teaching this class
without the the trip componentanymore.
Carrie Duncan (08:54):
Yeah, you can never go back?
Jill Peterfeso (08:56):
I'm like, I can never go back to not going back.
It adds so much for so manyreasons. I think, so before I
address that, I think it'sreally important to name why
Disney is such a helpfuleducational tool. And it's
typically, I've typically taughtFirst Year Seminars. This class
that I just taught was, again,for the honors course, honors
(09:17):
students. So there weresophomores, juniors and seniors
in the group. But even when itcomes to teaching a First Year
Seminar, the thing about Disneyis that everybody has interacted
with Disney at some point intheir life, even if they don't
love it. And if they do love it,they have very strong opinions.
And those are fun to deal withtoo. So Disney is great because
(09:37):
it's not like- I teachMormonism, and I've done work in
Mormon studies, which I lovedoing, but people don't know
what Mormonism is. They havesome, some opinions. Maybe they
know a Mormon who they think isgreat, I should say the members
of the Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter Day Saints. They may know
a member of the Church of JesusChrist of Latter Day Saints, or
they may have like just somecultural inaccurate knowledge
(09:59):
like, Oh, aren't they allpolygamists? Like, Okay no, it's
much more than that. So I sortof get a clean slate. But with
Disney, there's all of thisstuff that comes already; people
know the movies, they know thecharacters. And so it becomes a
great starting point forcritical thinking, because if
critical thinking involvesbreaking, identifying and
breaking down assumptions, thenI have, I have material to work
(10:22):
with. Even if students haven'tdone any reading yet, I already
have material to work with. Sothat's always been really
valuable with the Disney class.
What this experiential versionhas allowed me to do is to use
Disney World The Place as ashared laboratory, as opposed to
Oh, yeah, we've all seen LionKing at some point, and we can
(10:44):
talk about how we felt whenMufasa died, or when you know,
Simba became the king of PrideRock. This is, Together, we are
experiencing something. And evenstudents who'd experienced it
before, had never experienced itlike this with this group of
people at this time. And so wewere able to be together and I
kept referring to it to mystudents as a laboratory. I do
(11:08):
ethnographic research when Ican, my book project is largely
ethnographic. I like hanging outwith people and seeing what
they're doing and talking tothem about it. And being at
Disney World allows that tohappen even during a pandemic.
You may not be able to get up toCinderella, or Minnie Mouse and
just have a real conversation.
You wouldn't talk to Minnieanyway, but you can't really
(11:29):
talk to the characters as youwould when there isn't a
pandemic and pandemicrestrictions. But you can engage
with cast members, or you canobserve little girls going crazy
as the princess cavalcade goesby, and you can watch people's
faces and you can readexpressions, and you can watch
(11:51):
those same expressions on yourclassmates and then you can have
a conversation. And so reallybeing there shifted the terms of
our conversation from Okay, wehave the shared cultural
understanding what Disney is andwhat Disney does to, we are now
enveloped in it for five days.
Disney World is a city, it's thesize of San Francisco. So you're
in the resort, and it's likethat's the only world. And just
(12:14):
that complete immersiveness,and, you know, at no point, even
when you're like on a bus goingto the Magic Kingdom, you don't
see a billboard for like, youknow, guns or tobacco or an
outlet mall, like, you don't seethat. So you're really just
completely there. And it allowsyou to be transformed and
(12:38):
transported. And, and I will saythey just kept talking about the
experiences as beingtransformative and transportive.
And it wasn't something theycould really articulate when we
were there, but since we've comeback, it's like all these pieces
just sort of falling into placeand constructing something for
(12:58):
them each each one constructingsomething different. But when
you're there, it's so much, butwhen you come back, you're
suddenly able to breathe andsay, oh my gosh, I'm connecting
it to this reading, or to thisguest speaker or to this
conversation. And it starts tomake sense. And it starts to be
something that you can actuallydeal with academically and
intellectually.
Carrie Duncan (13:20):
So when I taught a pilgrimage seminar a couple of
years ago, we read a slightlyolder, but still very
interesting, article aboutDisney World as a pilgrimage
destination in the section ofthe class where we were talking
about sort of pilgrimages thatare outside of what one might
normally conceptualize religioustourism as. And they were really
(13:41):
intrigued by the sort of ideathat Disney seems like a place
where you would performpilgrimage. But the more we
thought and talked about it, themore sense it made. And I wonder
if you invoked that kind oftrope or imagery with your
students when you were there.
Jill Peterfeso (13:57):
There's a chapter in a book called Power
and Paradise in Walt Disney'sWorld by Cher Krause Knight. And
it's all about pilgrimage. Theinteresting thing is she
compares the pilgrimage toDisney World to the pilgrimage
on the El Camino in Spain. So,yeah, we definitely talked about
it as pilgrimage. And with that,we talked about Victor Turner's,
(14:18):
you know, steps of rite ofpassage, and the students now
know what liminality is, and howthey experienced that. You know,
sort of the break, the rupture,the coming back into society,
all of that- we've talked aboutit. We talked about it as sort
of a middle class, Disney Worldas a middle class pilgrimage
site as well. And that allowedthem to tell some of their own
(14:39):
personal family stories, whetherthey were able to go when they
were younger or not. The otherthing we sort of started to play
with, pilgrimage is one idea,but something that I've started
to notice just in parkmerchandise and in some of the
language used at the park, andthe students and I talked about
this as well, is that Disneyalso positions itself not just
(15:01):
as a site of pilgrimage, but asa place for homecoming. So
juxtaposing pilgrimage to homeare two different things with
two very different feelings andreasons for going. So I've
started to see, like Imentioned, a lot of merchandise
that talks about Disney Is Home.
And when DVC, Disney VacationClub, members show up to their
resort hotel, it's welcome home.
(15:24):
So again, this is just a reallyinteresting juxtaposition of
these two rhetorical approachesto Disney. And one of the things
I had students think about is,when we went to Disney, were you
on a pilgrimage or were yougoing home, and why? So...
Carrie Duncan (15:41):
That's fascinating. And I'm sort of
reminded of the speech patternsin the South of being asked
whether you found a church home,and that sort of language being
used also in explicitlyreligious settings where there's
sort of the, yes, maybe you havea house, but your home is here
in the community, in thecongregation.
Jill Peterfeso (16:04):
Yes. And I don't ever want to lose sight of the
fact that I know, and make surestudents remember, this as a
business. This is a corporationthat we're talking about. So we
should never give Disney toomany free passes. Like this
language of Homecoming, as muchas we feel like Disney's
welcoming us with open arms andgiving us a great big bear hug,
(16:25):
they're reaching into our pocketat the same time. Yes, exactly.
Exactly. But sometimes it'slike, go ahead Disney, take my
money. I'll pay for thisexperience.
Carrie Duncan (16:35):
I mean I think that that's a lot of what
marketing does right now, thatyou're not just supposed to have
a phone, you're supposed to havea relationship with your phone,
such that when it breaks or diesor you drop it in the toilet,
you are emotionally upset, thatyou feel that loss, not just for
its convenience, but for itsmeaningfulness to you.
Jill Peterfeso (16:57):
Yeah, um, a couple things on that. A student
did a presentation on Disney andsocial media, and she gave a
quote that I have not been ableto track down yet the origins
of- this was just yesterday- butthat a successful brand is one
that becomes part of a person'ssense of self. So the idea of a
(17:17):
successful, a successful brandis connected to a person's sense
of self, which is just thisreally, very, like how have I
become as a person, a personwith being, you know, in that
deep sense of what "being" isand might be, so connected to my
Apple phone, or my Starbuckscoffee, or my, you know, my
(17:40):
Disney beach towel? I don'tknow. But, you know, these
things happen. And I thinkthat's what a lot of branding is
about. Right now. I'm not anexpert in marketing at all, but
that just really made me think.
It also connects back to, Iwould say, to some deep religion
questions like Who are we? Wheredo we come from? How do we
relate to the world around us?
The other thing I was going tosay is the Disney Parks
(18:02):
experience is credited withcreating the "experience
economy." The fact that we thinkwe need to have an experience
every time we do anything. Itneeds to be an experience that
we can share and inhabit. It'snot just, We're going to watch
this thing and then go home,it's We are going to be
enveloped in it and everything'sgoing to be an experience.
Carrie Duncan (18:22):
Well you have loved Disney for a long time,
way before you ever startedstudying it. I'm guessing way
before you ever thought ofyourself as a religious studies
scholar or student. When did youget started with Disney and what
made that such an important partof your life?
Jill Peterfeso (18:41):
So I'm not inclined to talk about myself
and why I love Disney. But, twothings, one, if emotion is
information, I think we shouldbe asking ourselves these
questions, Why do I have anemotional reaction to this item?
The other thing is, it's sointeresting, when I read
scholarship about Disney,invariably, the scholar
discloses their relationship toDisney if it's anything other
(19:04):
than overtly critical. And Ifind that such an interesting
academic move, and I askedmyself why we need to make it.
Carrie Duncan (19:11):
I was thinking, sometimes, I've been reading
some classes a lot ofparticipant observer
ethnography, I find that thatpeople do more disclosure at the
beginning of that type, butotherwise, yeah, that's just not
a practice that we are taught.
Jill Peterfeso (19:27):
Sure, exactly.
And yeah, and my book that cameout last year is on Roman
Catholic women priests. So thesewomen who have defied the
Catholic Church and have gottenordained, I did feel that I
needed to say in theintroduction to my book, which
was an ethnography, This is myrelationship to Catholicism. But
by and large, I mean evenpractitioners of religions who
(19:48):
are writing academic studiesdon't need to say, I've been
this religious faith for thislong or I had this negative
experience or I've had thispositive experience. But with
Disney, I mean, I'm sitting atmy desk looking at two books
right now, where in the openingpages, the scholar has to say, I
just need to tell you, Iactually really love Disney, but
don't worry, I'm still gonna bereally critical. I'm totally
(20:11):
paraphrasing, but that's what'sgoing on. So I feel like I'm
entering into a good club now asI try to answer your question
about why Disney and how long. Idon't remember anything specific
besides like having those littleDisney books with the records,
the company records as a kid.
And I remember we used to doMickey's Mousersize, which I
(20:36):
still have the music in my head,and I haven't heard that for
decades and decades. I rememberwe had a haunted mansion album,
it was orange, and I used tojust play it and I loved the
scary sounds. And then I went toDisney World for the first time
when I was eight, and there wasjust something about that place
that made total sense to me,without being able to articulate
why. By the time was a teenager,I was able to start to think
(20:59):
about Disney a little more, likeI started to recognize like,
Okay, Disney gives us like threemessages. One is, You can dream
and do anything you want. Two,America is awesome. Three, take
care of nature and animals. So Ito start to distill the big
Disney themes from my time atthe parks. I love Disney, I
(21:19):
respect a lot of what it does,and I'm also very critical of
it. As I tell my students, youknow, as a scholar of
Christianity and Americanhistory, and even like feminist
studies and feminist theology, Ibelieve that when you love
something, you should critiqueit. Like, if you really love
something, challenge it to beits best expression of that
thing. I know, that's notsomething everybody agrees with,
(21:42):
when we look at some debates inthis country about how we can be
better as Americans, how we canbe better citizens of this
planet. I think we should alwaysbe critical while we love
something. And I'm able to holdthat intention, I think, even
though I'm more gushing aboutDisney today. But I definitely
have many critiques aboutDisney. So at this point in my
(22:04):
life, there's so many thingsthat I could say that I really
like and respect about Disney.
But the one that I think sort ofhits it where I am in my life
most is that it's a place,Disney World is a place, which
is connected to Disney, thecorporation, where things work.
Like people put their bestimagination, or creativity, or
customer service, or engineeringskills, or construction skills,
(22:27):
they put that forward, andthey're able to make something
that functions in such acompetent, coherent, and often
life-affirming andlife-energizing way. And I
really respect that. I think, atleast for me, you get to a
certain point in your life whereyou're like, What am I doing
with my life? Where do I spendmy time? And how do I make the
(22:50):
world around me better? And yousee a place that just seems to
do that, and I find that reallyappealing. I also don't want to
dismiss the experience of castmembers who often don't have a
great time working at Disney. Iknow this, that was one of the
things we talked about in mycourse was how the cast members,
for instance, have been treatedaround COVID. So I know my
students went into their parkexperience being much more
(23:13):
sensitive about Okay, these castmembers maybe have had a hard
day, like maybe somebody yelledat them because the cast member
asked them to put a mask on. Ormaybe the cast member is just
really hot or maybe the castmember has the sick relative at
home and they feel the need tokeep smiling because they're at
Disney. So I don't want to eversuggest that we're not thinking
(23:35):
about the human there. But thefact that by and large, you get
a number of humans who step into create, "magic," I really
admire that.
Carrie Duncan (23:45):
It sounds exhausting to have to make magic
for other people all day, everyday as your job, such that if
you don't make the magic, youhave failed at your job that
day.
Jill Peterfeso (23:58):
It's funny. So one of the ways I treated myself
on this trip, because, you know,I wasn't with the students 24/7.
They wanted free time. Theywanted a lot of free time, and I
was happy to give it to them.
But I went to Oga's Cantina,which is in Galaxy's Edge. And
it's very much supposed to belike the Cantina in Star Wars,
like the the original Star Warstrilogy, that experience where
(24:18):
we first meet Han Solo. So Iwent to Oga's Cantina and I
ended up going by myself. Theother people who were supposed
to come with me, did not end upgoing on the trip because of
COVID. So I went by myself tothis bar at Galaxy's Edge. And
I'm standing at the bar, and Imake friends with this group of
young people next to me who areall graduates of the Disney
(24:41):
College Program. Which was, Imean, these young people just
seemed to love the fact thatthey worked for or continue to
work for Disney. And so I ofcourse was picking their brains,
like, Tell me about this. Howdid you get into this? And I
just remember them, the youngman standing next to me who I
talk to the most, he's justlike, I get to make magic for
(25:03):
people, I get to make somebody'sday. And I get to have close
contact with people and put asmile on their face, and that
means everything to me. And Iwas, you know, I of course
pulled on him, you know, I wantto know more than like, but why,
like, why did you want to dothat? And he goes back to his
childhood, like, I've lovedDisney since I was a kid.
(25:24):
Disney, you know, helped me seewho I am. Disney showed me what
it's like to, you know, be afriend. I just love Disney, and
now I get to be part of it. Soagain, I'm thinking of how his
story sort of maps on in manyways to the stories of people
who are religious and stick withit. Like, this has given me a
sense of identity. This hasgiven me a sense of purpose.
(25:46):
This has shown me how to be inthe world. This has shown me the
way I can be my best self in theworld. And I get to do it, and
I'm so fortunate. So I admirethat, I really admire that. I
wish it could be bottled and Icould consume it. Like just
that, that clarity of purposeand vision and being part of
something bigger than myself.
Carrie Duncan (26:08):
So I want to hear more about stories from the
trip. What kinds of amazingmoments did your students have
and report back to you? What didyou have together? What moments
did you have that really gavethem a sense, not just of, Yay,
we're at Disney World, but thatthat crystallized for them the
ideas that you were trying toget them to think about in your
(26:30):
class that relate Disney, as a,Disney as religion and Disney
World as a religious experience?
Jill Peterfeso (26:38):
I didn't, I'll just be clear that the religious
piece was one that I invitedstudents to think through, and I
had a few religious studiesmajors on the trip, and that was
something I had sideconversations with them about.
By and large, I let studentsdrive their own research
projects at the park. But itwas, I will say it was exciting
to have a student who took myDisney class, I had a couple
students who took my Disneyclass a year ago, which was sort
(26:59):
of a Disney and American culturewith overlap with religion, who,
at the time, they were veryskeptical of this idea that
maybe Disney's like a religion.
Like students don't love thisidea. Let me be very clear.
Anyone who wants to try this athome, it's not going to go over
really well right away. Studentshave their own idea of what
religion is. So they're going topush back. By this point, after
having sat with my material, mycourse last fall, and then
(27:22):
coming into the class, they'rekind of like, yeah, Disney's a
religion. And they're ready togo with it. I don't know exactly
what changed for them, but theywere there with me. So that was
pretty cool.
Some of the big takeaways, Ithink, I mean, it's hard to
distill because so many of themhad their own takeaways based on
the project questions they cameinto the parks with. I set it up
(27:45):
again, ethnographically, wherethey were going to go do their
own thing while they were there.
I was going to help steer andguide them, but they each had
things they were looking for orlistening for. I had a student
doing a project on sound,ambient sound, in the park.
Another on color, how is colorused and deployed in different
ways. A student was doing aproject on gardens and
horticulture, the plant lifethat exists at Disney. So they
(28:07):
had their own stuff coming in. Ithink some of the key things
they take away, they definitelynotice Disney's messaging about
positivity, and progress. Like,life is good. We can make it
good with our actions. And thefuture is a bright place. And
(28:28):
we're moving there. And we'removing in that direction in a
way that's good and we should beexcited about. Some of those
messages, I'd say all of thosemessages, go back to Walt in his
own life. Walt died in 1966.
Walt died five years beforeDisney World opened. But he
still has a lot of his imprint,obviously, on Disneyland and
(28:50):
Disney World and just the ethosof the company. The students
were able to pick up on that. Wetalked about it beforehand, but
for them to be able to sit inthe Carousel of Progress and
talk about Oh, the messages areall over that even in the song,
or to talk about things like,just walking around Tomorrowland
or Future World in Epcot and howthese positive messages about
(29:12):
the future and just about lifeare abounding. Something else
they started to think about,which I thought was really cool,
is about the connection betweenmagic and science. What Is Magic
was the title, was sort of thefocus of our class. Like, How is
magic made, with Disneyproviding a series of answers.
One of my great colleagues, DonSmith, in physics at Guilford,
came and gave like an hour-longtalk about physics and
(29:35):
psychology at the HauntedMansion and all these many ways
that the Haunted Mansion, whichwas designed in the '60s, opened
in the '60s at Disneyland and atDisney World, uses just really
basic theatre tricks and physicstricks. But it continues to be
one of the most beloved popularrides that endures. It's like,
we're going on 50 plus years-oldnow, and that ride works so
(29:59):
well. And students were able tosee, magic is not simply
somebody behind the scenes iswaving a wand, but really smart
people are are deploying thesescientific tricks and innovating
science in order to create anexperience like the Haunted
Mansion or like the Tower ofTerror or like the
(30:22):
fill-in-the-blank with prettymuch any ride. Star Tours was
something else we rode, which isa flight simulator, basically.
It's a ride that opened in the'90s at Disneyland and there was
one at Disney World. It's aflight simulator, and you're
moving, and you feel like you'removing, but it was put to tell a
story about you in the middle ofa Star Wars adventure. So that
storytelling combined withtechnology and innovation in
(30:46):
order to create an experience.
They've also talked a lot, thiswas sort of from day one of the
course, storytelling, and howeverything comes down to story.
I think religion is the sameway. I think religion exists
because humans like to tellstories and we can hold abstract
thoughts in our heads. Studentswere able to recognize how just
walking down Main Street USA, orjust walking down Sunset
(31:08):
Boulevard in Hollywood Studios,or just walking around Animal
Kingdom, you are part of astory, because Disney has made
sure you are part of a worldthat is all detailed and
immersive. We noticed that trashcans are everywhere at Disney
World, because Walt wantedthings to be clean, but those
trash cans are themed to fitwhatever world you are in. The
(31:30):
trash can at Expedition Everestin Animal Kingdom is not the
same as the trash can on MainStreet USA. Why would they be?
Of course. So you notice this,even the way the ground has been
constructed and detailed isdifferent. So everything is
different around you. And sothey think about that, they came
to think about that in terms ofstory, and rides put you in the
(31:51):
middle of a story. Like you'reon this adventure, and you're
there with it. I think the otherbig takeaway that they really
loved, and I get this, got thisfrom the Imagineering
documentary on Disney+, butthere's a formula that
Imagineers think about, and it'ssomething like this, fear minus
death equals fun.
(32:16):
And they love that. They want toput it on a t-shirt. Fear minus
death equals fun. And that allconnects to story, but also that
Disney is about letting youexperience something and come
out okay. And there's something,there's a word that came up in
one of our readings from JohnHench, who was an Imagineer and
(32:36):
a later Disney executive, and hewas talking about that, Disney
is not an, escape Disney isreassurance. And that word
"reassurance" came up a lot,over and over again. We're not
trying to create a place for youto escape, we're trying to
reassure you about the world youinhabit and your place in it.
And so that fear minus death,I'm sorry, yeah, "fear minus
death equals fun", was anotherthing. So many of the
(32:58):
attractions at Disney World areabout Here, you're going,
something's happening. Oh, myGod, something terrible is
happening now. This isunexpected. Are we going to make
it? Oh, yes, we made it. And youfinish. So like three minutes
later, five minutes later,you've defeated death and you've
had fun and you have a smile onyour face. And how so that's
just sort of like a formula forhow things work and how things
(33:21):
work at Disney. So those aresome of the key things that
students took away in terms ofbigger picture intellectual
experiential things.
Carrie Duncan (33:31):
Do you think that having that kind of environment
where sort of the ultimate badis not an option is especially
reassuring in a time like we'reexperiencing now? Was going to
Disney during a pandemic andbeing in this highly
(33:52):
constructed, and ultimately, atleast safe-seeming environment
different because of everythingelse that's happening? I'm
trying to reconcile the ideathat Disney can somehow
guarantee a lack of death asbeing in some ways, I don't
(34:12):
know, it seems like it's a falsenarrative, however, reassuring
it is.
Jill Peterfeso (34:19):
Yeah, I mean, I hear the implied critique and I
think that's fair. For sure. Idon't think Disney thinks it's
in the business of chaplaincy,for instance, they're not trying
to guide you to death. They'retrying to reassure you that
everything is going to be okay.
Like, that's the businessthey're in. So, your question is
really interesting. Part of mewants to say I don't know a time
(34:39):
in the last 60-70 years ofDisney parks that Americans
haven't needed reassurance aboutsomething. 20 years ago it was
9/11. We've had the Vietnam War,we've had, I mean, pick a time
in history and I think Americansare stressed about something,
probably.
Carrie Duncan (34:58):
Fair enough.
Jill Peterfeso (34:59):
But I do think there will probably be some
really interesting researchcoming out in the next couple of
years about Disney during COVID.
My own very limited observationhas been that social media
engagement with Disney, writlarge movies, parks, merchandise
has really ticked up a lotduring the pandemic, that people
(35:21):
have turned to social media toconnect them with that which
they love at Disney, just anexample, using Disney as an
example here. So I think you'reprobably right, that being at
Disney World was reassuring insome narrative way for my
students. I will alsoacknowledge and honor that many
(35:43):
of them were very nervous attimes throughout the trip. I
want to brag about our group,that we did not get COVID. My
students wore masks almost theentire trip. Even when it was
not required outdoors at Disney,many of them just kept their
masks on. They were verycautious and careful. So, but I
know that that anxiety wasthere, for me, for sure, and
(36:05):
definitely for many of them, notif not all of them, but a lot of
them just had a lot of veryoutward anxiety about the COVID
thing. So I don't know how muchthe Disney Magic of reassurance
allowed them to not experiencethe fear of contracting and
passing on COVID. I do thinkthere is a moment at Disney for
(36:25):
everyone where you're just sortof swept up. And you don't
necessarily have to be thinkingabout that which scares you
most, and I do think thathappened for all my students at
some point, if not, if not manypoints on the trip.
Carrie Duncan (36:41):
That's just so interesting. When I was thinking
about sort of Disney andreligion, I kept coming back to
the idea of Utopia, and the waysin which Disney functions as a
utopian community. And I thinkthat a lot of the themes that
you've brought up here resonatein that way. But I also then
felt like most utopiancommunities don't make it for
(37:05):
the long haul. What do youthink? I mean, first of all, do
you think that that I am rightto make that connection? And do
you think that Disney has foundsort of a formula to be a
successful, utopian community?
Jill Peterfeso (37:22):
I think when I think of the utopian attempts in
American religious history,often the problem is they were
too highly principled. And thatgets you into trouble when you
run into trouble. I don't thinkDisney has the same, they don't
have the same masters. Utopiancommunities are often trying to
serve God and community in a waythat was gonna to be hard
(37:45):
because people are messy. Disneyis sort of unapologetic about it
being a corporate. likemonolith. But yes, I mean, to
your point about Disney andutopia, yeah, I mean, this is
something I think a lot ofpeople who are interested in
Disney have looked into. Theidea of Utopia- Walt himself was
an urban planner. He did a lotof urban planning. Disney World,
(38:07):
what we know now as Walt DisneyWorld was initially really
supposed to be like a city thatfunctioned in a futuristic, for
the time, for the 1960s, way.
And Epcot itself was reallysupposed to be a place where
people could live and work andhave recreation all in one
place. A lot changed when Waltdied. Walt died five years
(38:29):
before Walt Disney World opened.
So things had to change, changein terms of that vision. And
what you end up with in Floridais sort of like a Disneyland but
with a lot more space to grow.
So yes, urban planning, andDisney is absolutely there. The
other thing that I think aboutin terms of, I wouldn't, I am
careful to juxtapose utopia withthe next term I'm going to
(38:50):
introduce, which is "City on aHill", but I think those two
things can go together. So theCity on a Hill idea, of course,
comes from the the Puritans inNew England, you know, 1630s
arriving in order to create theperfect Christian town. And they
wanted to be a city on a hill,and they wanted the people back
(39:11):
in England, who basically wereso annoyed with them that the
Puritans left, they wanted themto look at what they created in
New England and be like, Okay,they had it right. Look at how
great that is. Like, We are thecity on the hill. We are going
to live together in community,and we are going to make God so
proud. And we're gonna live outthis Christian vision. I think
in many ways, you could thinkabout Disney as sort of an
(39:35):
American, a 20th centuryAmerican city on a hill in that
there's no question that Disneyis a beacon to the rest of the
world, or at least insofar as itis an American export that has
traveled globally. And there areparks in Asia, there's a park in
Paris, outside Paris. So yeah,there's some appeal here in the
(40:01):
park environment that Disney hascreated that is, again, utopian
or city on a hill, or someaspect of urban planning that
has really worked and beenreplicated and sent around the
world.
Carrie Duncan (40:20):
So I want to ask whether you've encountered
skepticism. I know you said thatyou had some students who took a
little while of digesting beforethey came around to, to a
willingness to think aboutDisney from a religious studies
kind of perspective. Whatpushback, if any, have you
gotten from administrators orparents or colleagues about the
(40:43):
idea that you can teach arigorous and academically
stimulating religious studies,or college course of any
discipline about Disney? Do youhave a way of explaining sort of
your objectives that helps themmake sense of that? And and what
would you say why? Why does thismatter? What is important about,
(41:04):
what what can we learn aboutourselves and about society?
From this particular topic?
Jill Peterfeso (41:11):
I think, I think the challenges I have with
students around this topic, arethe are the arguments I use for
why it matters. So students, asI said earlier, everybody, every
even like international studentsknow know what Disney is, they
may know it to differentdegrees, they may have different
(41:31):
emotional relationships toDisney. This thing that produces
movies and TV shows and musicand theme parks and also owns
ESPN and ABC and is reallygrowing in its size. People know
Disney in some degree. So askingstudents to think critically
about Disney can be verychallenging, because they think
they already know all they needto know. And there is definite
(41:53):
resistance to thinking deeplycritically. And when I say
critically, I don't meanharshly. But that sometimes gets
involved in it too. Right? Okay,is Disney doing something
problematic with this messaging?
What is Disney saying aboutrace? What is Disney saying
about heteronormativity, and howdoes that limit cultural ideas
about LGBTQIA people? What isDisney saying about how you
(42:15):
achieve success in the Americandream? If I'm not, "winning" as
a person, is it because I'm notvirtuous as so many Disney
heroes and heroines are. Sothinking critically, can be
really a barrier that studentseventually get through. When I
get some skepticism fromparents. I mean, I don't talk to
(42:35):
a lot of parents as a collegeprofessor, but I certainly hear
it, you know, from other friendsI have who have kids and just
parents in general, like there'salways like that single eyebrow,
like, really, you're going toteach a college class on Disney.
That sounds like fun. And I'mlike, Yeah, see, that's the
thing, students sign up thinkingit's going to be fun. They think
they're going to watch movies.
(42:56):
And instead, we go so deeplyinto something they thought they
already knew. And they realizethey didn't know it at all. And
now they have an opportunity tosee it a new and that. If that's
not like a crash course incritical thinking, and
reassessing how you think aboutthe world and see the world, I
don't know what is. So one ofthe things I love about what I
(43:19):
get to teach Christianity inAmerica, by and large is that I
get to make the familiar,unfamiliar. I get to take
something that people think theyknow, and I turn it into
something they realize theydidn't know. And that is a new
form of empowerment and a newway of seeing and thinking. So I
really have not found anyone whocould respond to my claim that
(43:41):
teaching Disney, especially tofirst year students and newer
students to college is reallyone of the best ways to get them
to critically think for thereasons that I've laid out. So
yeah, students sometimes don'twant to think critically about
Disney. And I've had studentswhen I taught my three
iterations of this course, theDisney course to first year
students, every time I taughtit, there's some time and I
(44:04):
taught it in the fall, sometimearound like late September,
early October, I would come intoclass and the vibe was weird. I
finally recognized it after likea year or two, but I was like,
What's wrong, y'all? And they'relike, You are ruining our
childhood. I got some version ofthat every timeYou are ruining
our childhood. And then we hadto stop and have a conversation
(44:26):
about what it meant to doschool, and what it meant to
think deeply. And is there a waythat we can love something,
think deeply about it and comeback to it? And I think this is
something that teachingreligious studies prepared me
for really well, because again,teaching Christianity for the
past 10 years plus, longer thanthat 15, you get students who
(44:49):
suddenly start to seeChristianity critically like
they actually read the Bible ina historical context, or they
learn that the history ofChristian traditions is very
different than what theythought. And that can be
jarring, it can knock them outof their, their comfortable
orbit. But I've been used tohaving conversations with those
students, as they're sort oflike trying to pick up the
(45:11):
pieces. And it's very possibleto reconstruct those pieces into
something stronger and moremeaningful. And, well I know I
stand ready to do that withstudents and Disney, if that's
where they want to go, if that'ssomething that means that much
to them. So credit to religiousstudies for helping us to have
hard conversations that might bea little earth and identity
(45:31):
shattering, but we canreconstruct ultimately.
Carrie Duncan (45:35):
So for our listeners who have now learned a
lot about Disney and a lot aboutthinking about it in new and
different ways, what should theytake away? What would what would
you like, folks who havelistened to this conversation to
take away to reflect on abouttheir own life about sort of
things that maybe they hadn'tthought about?
Jill Peterfeso (45:54):
I think the big takeaway is one, I would just
invite anybody who's listeningto think about how religion may
not just be something inchurches or synagogues or
temples, like where actually dowe see and make religion in our,
in our world. My guess is, we'llsee that it's a lot more places
than we thought. But if you dowant to start to think deeply
(46:14):
about Disney, I would start byjust looking at where Disney has
popped up in your life, becauseit's probably in a lot more
places than you realize. Andit's probably given you messages
and memories that you areunaware of until you stop to
sort of piece them all together.
And I think those are two prettysimple ways to begin to think
more deeply about this. It's notunlike the ways I've started
(46:37):
some of my classes. One of myfavorite things that there's a
story that is credited to DavidFoster Wallace. And I use it a
lot in my own thinking about myteaching. But you probably know
this, Carrie, but it's the storyof like, there are two fish that
are just swimming in the in theocean do-do-do, hanging out
chatting, and another fish swimsby them and says, Hi, guys, the
(46:58):
water is lovely today, isn't it?
And then he keeps on goingdo-do-do and the fish keep
going, the two, and one stopsand turns to the other and says,
Wait, what's water? And I lovethat because I feel like it's
the perfect analogy for culture.
Like we're immersed in thisstuff, but we never stop and
think about what exactly it isand how it is literally giving
us oxygen, and how it isliterally sort of dictating how
(47:22):
we move in the world. So if wecan just stop and start to ask
ourselves, wait, what is thewater? What is that which is
around us that we haven't evenrecognized? I think we'll find
some really cool things aboutthe world and ourselves. For me
right now, that's Disney. Andit's also religion and religious
culture and I just invitestudents and others to
participate in that discoverywith me.
Carrie Duncan (47:45):
Thank you so much. This has been such a
fabulous conversation.
Jill Peterfeso (47:48):
Thank you for having me.
Chip Gruen (47:52):
This has been ReligionWise a podcast produced
by the Institute for Religiousand Cultural Understanding of
Muhlenberg College. For moreinformation and additional
programming, please visit ourwebsite at
religionandculture.com. There,you'll find our contact
information, links to otherprogramming and have the
opportunity to support the workof the Institute. ReligionWise
(48:15):
is produced by the staff of theInstitute for Religious and
Cultural Understanding ofMuhlenberg College, including
Christine Flicker and CarrieDuncan. Please subscribe to
ReligionWise wherever you getyour podcasts. We look forward
to seeing you next time.
Welcome to ReligionWise the podcast where
we feature educators,researchers and other
professionals, discussing topicson religion and their relevance
to the public conversation. Myname is Chip Gruen. I'm the
Director of the Institute forReligious and Cultural
Understanding at MuhlenbergCollege and I will be the host
for this podcast.
Our guest today is Dr. JillPeterfeso. The Eli Franklin
(00:33):
Craven and Minnie Phipps CravenAssociate Professor of Religious
Studies at Guilford College inGreensboro, North Carolina. Dr.
Peterfeso studies Americanreligions, American Catholicism,
Mormon studies, and gender andsexuality in religion. And among
her other interests is the ideaof popular American religion.
(00:54):
This installment of ReligionWiseis a little different from the
previous episodes for a fewreasons. First, we have a guest
host today, Dr. Carrie Duncan,who is the Program Specialist
for the Institute for Religiousand Cultural Understanding. She
is also a Ph.D. in religiousstudies. The other difference is
the topic itself. Dr. Peterfesoand Dr. Duncan are discussing
(01:16):
Disney, which is not necessarilywhat you think of when you think
about religion or religiousstudies. So before we start the
conversation, I wanted to offera few comments on what to listen
for and what to think about aswe listen to the conversation.
If you've ever taken a religiousstudies class before, chances
are you've had a conversation atsome point about defining
(01:40):
religion. What is religion? Andit sounds like a relatively easy
question to answer. But once youstart to do it by giving
criteria, such as belief in God,an ethical system, the building
of a community, you will seethat there will be exceptions to
each one of them. That not everyreligion hinges on, for example,
(02:04):
belief in God, not everyreligion necessitates a
community of believerspracticing together, not every
religion thinks about orconsiders ritual in the same
way. And so when we're guidingstudents through this question,
we will often turn to what iscalled a functional definition
of religion. And in a functionaldefinition, we don't think about
(02:24):
what religion is, but we thinkabout what it does, what does it
do for the people whoparticipate in it? Once you
start doing that, you can startbuilding a set of functions
things that religion does forpeople. So for example, provides
order and meaning for theirlives, provides answers to the
questions of "why am I here?",or "what does it mean to be
human?", or "what is the goodlife?" Building a community or
(02:49):
providing an ethical system-there are a lot of things that
religion does for people that wecan describe as these functions.
Once you build a definitionbased on those functions, you
then realize that there areother things in the world beyond
what we call traditionalreligion that serve those same
functions. There are other waysof building order and meaning in
(03:10):
your life. There are other waysof building ethical systems,
there are other ways of buildingcommunity that don't fall under
that umbrella of traditionalreligion. A lot of religious
studies scholars have recognizedthat Disney is one of them. If
you've watched any Disney film,for example, you'll see that it
gives very clear direction onhow to live in the world, how to
(03:33):
be happy, how to find meaning inthe world. The other
consideration here is that ascertain segments of the United
States population, globalpopulation, become less
traditionally religious, wemight ask ourselves, do these
people who don't identify with aparticular religious tradition
not need to build meaning andorder in their lives, have a
(03:56):
sense of community, have aethical system, all of these
functions that weretraditionally filled by
religious practice? Andobviously the answer to that is
no, they don't just jettisonideas of meaning and order. So
how do they fill them? Where doideas of meaning and order come
(04:16):
from? And again, another answerto this is popular culture,
media, the Disney Corporation,the Disney parks, the Disney
movies is another place that wemight go to think about meaning
and order, or conversationsabout meaning and order in the
world. So without further ado, Igive you the conversation
(04:38):
between Dr. Carrie Duncan andDr. Jill Peterfeso.
Carrie Duncan (04:44):
Welcome to ReligionWise.
Jill Peterfeso (04:45):
Thank you for having me.
Carrie Duncan (04:47):
I'm excited to talk with you today about your
recent adventure taking studentsto Disney World. Can you tell us
a little about the class and thetrip?
Jill Peterfeso (04:54):
It's true. I was at Disney World, and during a
pandemic with 18 students, so ithas been an adventure to say the
least. You realize very early onas a religious studies scholar,
maybe even as a major inreligious studies, I like to
think our students realize thistoo, that defining religion is
almost impossible. And that'sone of the fun projects of
(05:15):
religious studies trying tofigure out okay, what exactly do
we mean by religion? Whatexactly counts as religion? And
with something like Disney, howis religion different from
culture? Those boundaries arereally permeable. When we
started to talk, when studentsand I started to talk through
things in my first Disney class,which was called Discovering
(05:36):
Disney, some themes started topop out. For instance, so Disney
and the way it educates childrenfrom an early age. So for
instance, there's this Marxistcritic of Disney named Henry
Giroux who looks at Disney assort of indoctrinating children
in the way that it introduceschildren not only to certain
versions of fairy tales, butalso like a very capitalist way
(06:00):
of being in the world. And itjust started to strike me and my
students that, oh, this soundslike other things, like
Christianity and going to Sundayschool at an early age, or I had
students who'd grown up in theJewish tradition, who said,
Yeah, this, like just from beinga child, these are the important
traditions, and Disney has someof its own "traditions" or
traditions that families makearound Disney. So there was
(06:21):
that. The issue of Disney andEmpire started to come up a lot
in my classes, I think it'sbecause I had a great creative
student who was taking a classon Empire. And she just kept,
every day in class she's like,Disney's just like an empire,
and she would quote from herreadings in her Empire course.
And you can't not think about aChristian empire as well. I am,
my focus is on Christianity, soI tend to cite things in terms
(06:44):
of Christianity. So Empire wasalso there. You know, some
students would initially pushback and say, well, but Disney
is about making money, andreligion is not about making
money. And I would say, Well,hold on, let's look at the
history of disestablishment inAmerica, without having a
state-church established by theConstitution and our founding
(07:05):
fathers, the religiousmarketplace was opened up by the
late 18th century. And so thisis why you get the Second Great
Awakening starting in 1800sAmerica because all of these
different religions are sort ofvying for attention. So
actually, yes, buying andselling is woven into the
American religious story. Sothose are just a few of the
(07:26):
examples that I started torecognize in conversations with
students. And I think combinedwith that and my own interest in
American culture, Americanreligious culture, we can't
ignore the growing number ofnones, n-o-n-e-s, that are
currently reporting on forms andcensuses and other like Pew
surveys right now. And I thinkthe number is approaching 20%,
(07:49):
which is really a very fastgrowth in the number of people
who say they don't have areligious affiliation. If we
look at some of the definitionsof religion and what religion
does and how religion emerged,we have to think that something
might possibly be replacing theformal organized religions if
the number of nones are, infact, correct. So what what is
(08:12):
religious for people who aren'treligious? Or what might be
serving that function? So thatwas a question we started to ask
sort of as a class, because Iwould have plenty of students
who would say, Well, I don't goto church. I'm not religious.
But they are religious aboutcertain things they would later
admit.
Carrie Duncan (08:28):
So it sounds like you have taught this class
several times, many times now,without this new experiential
component. What do you think itadded? What did your class that
you took to Disney World get outof participation in place? That
being there brings to the class?
Jill Peterfeso (08:49):
Yeah, it's hard to imagine teaching this class
without the the trip componentanymore.
Carrie Duncan (08:54):
Yeah, you can never go back?
Jill Peterfeso (08:56):
I'm like, I can never go back to not going back.
It adds so much for so manyreasons. I think, so before I
address that, I think it'sreally important to name why
Disney is such a helpfuleducational tool. And it's
typically, I've typically taughtFirst Year Seminars. This class
that I just taught was, again,for the honors course, honors
(09:17):
students. So there weresophomores, juniors and seniors
in the group. But even when itcomes to teaching a First Year
Seminar, the thing about Disneyis that everybody has interacted
with Disney at some point intheir life, even if they don't
love it. And if they do love it,they have very strong opinions.
And those are fun to deal withtoo. So Disney is great because
(09:37):
it's not like- I teachMormonism, and I've done work in
Mormon studies, which I lovedoing, but people don't know
what Mormonism is. They havesome, some opinions. Maybe they
know a Mormon who they think isgreat, I should say the members
of the Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter Day Saints. They may know
a member of the Church of JesusChrist of Latter Day Saints, or
they may have like just somecultural inaccurate knowledge
(09:59):
like, Oh, aren't they allpolygamists? Like, Okay no, it's
much more than that. So I sortof get a clean slate. But with
Disney, there's all of thisstuff that comes already; people
know the movies, they know thecharacters. And so it becomes a
great starting point forcritical thinking, because if
critical thinking involvesbreaking, identifying and
breaking down assumptions, thenI have, I have material to work
(10:22):
with. Even if students haven'tdone any reading yet, I already
have material to work with. Sothat's always been really
valuable with the Disney class.
What this experiential versionhas allowed me to do is to use
Disney World The Place as ashared laboratory, as opposed to
Oh, yeah, we've all seen LionKing at some point, and we can
(10:44):
talk about how we felt whenMufasa died, or when you know,
Simba became the king of PrideRock. This is, Together, we are
experiencing something. And evenstudents who'd experienced it
before, had never experienced itlike this with this group of
people at this time. And so wewere able to be together and I
kept referring to it to mystudents as a laboratory. I do
(11:08):
ethnographic research when Ican, my book project is largely
ethnographic. I like hanging outwith people and seeing what
they're doing and talking tothem about it. And being at
Disney World allows that tohappen even during a pandemic.
You may not be able to get up toCinderella, or Minnie Mouse and
just have a real conversation.
You wouldn't talk to Minnieanyway, but you can't really
(11:29):
talk to the characters as youwould when there isn't a
pandemic and pandemicrestrictions. But you can engage
with cast members, or you canobserve little girls going crazy
as the princess cavalcade goesby, and you can watch people's
faces and you can readexpressions, and you can watch
(11:51):
those same expressions on yourclassmates and then you can have
a conversation. And so reallybeing there shifted the terms of
our conversation from Okay, wehave the shared cultural
understanding what Disney is andwhat Disney does to, we are now
enveloped in it for five days.
Disney World is a city, it's thesize of San Francisco. So you're
in the resort, and it's likethat's the only world. And just
(12:14):
that complete immersiveness,and, you know, at no point, even
when you're like on a bus goingto the Magic Kingdom, you don't
see a billboard for like, youknow, guns or tobacco or an
outlet mall, like, you don't seethat. So you're really just
completely there. And it allowsyou to be transformed and
(12:38):
transported. And, and I will saythey just kept talking about the
experiences as beingtransformative and transportive.
And it wasn't something theycould really articulate when we
were there, but since we've comeback, it's like all these pieces
just sort of falling into placeand constructing something for
(12:58):
them each each one constructingsomething different. But when
you're there, it's so much, butwhen you come back, you're
suddenly able to breathe andsay, oh my gosh, I'm connecting
it to this reading, or to thisguest speaker or to this
conversation. And it starts tomake sense. And it starts to be
something that you can actuallydeal with academically and
intellectually.
Carrie Duncan (13:20):
So when I taught a pilgrimage seminar a couple of
years ago, we read a slightlyolder, but still very
interesting, article aboutDisney World as a pilgrimage
destination in the section ofthe class where we were talking
about sort of pilgrimages thatare outside of what one might
normally conceptualize religioustourism as. And they were really
(13:41):
intrigued by the sort of ideathat Disney seems like a place
where you would performpilgrimage. But the more we
thought and talked about it, themore sense it made. And I wonder
if you invoked that kind oftrope or imagery with your
students when you were there.
Jill Peterfeso (13:57):
There's a chapter in a book called Power
and Paradise in Walt Disney'sWorld by Cher Krause Knight. And
it's all about pilgrimage. Theinteresting thing is she
compares the pilgrimage toDisney World to the pilgrimage
on the El Camino in Spain. So,yeah, we definitely talked about
it as pilgrimage. And with that,we talked about Victor Turner's,
(14:18):
you know, steps of rite ofpassage, and the students now
know what liminality is, and howthey experienced that. You know,
sort of the break, the rupture,the coming back into society,
all of that- we've talked aboutit. We talked about it as sort
of a middle class, Disney Worldas a middle class pilgrimage
site as well. And that allowedthem to tell some of their own
(14:39):
personal family stories, whetherthey were able to go when they
were younger or not. The otherthing we sort of started to play
with, pilgrimage is one idea,but something that I've started
to notice just in parkmerchandise and in some of the
language used at the park, andthe students and I talked about
this as well, is that Disneyalso positions itself not just
(15:01):
as a site of pilgrimage, but asa place for homecoming. So
juxtaposing pilgrimage to homeare two different things with
two very different feelings andreasons for going. So I've
started to see, like Imentioned, a lot of merchandise
that talks about Disney Is Home.
And when DVC, Disney VacationClub, members show up to their
resort hotel, it's welcome home.
(15:24):
So again, this is just a reallyinteresting juxtaposition of
these two rhetorical approachesto Disney. And one of the things
I had students think about is,when we went to Disney, were you
on a pilgrimage or were yougoing home, and why? So...
Carrie Duncan (15:41):
That's fascinating. And I'm sort of
reminded of the speech patternsin the South of being asked
whether you found a church home,and that sort of language being
used also in explicitlyreligious settings where there's
sort of the, yes, maybe you havea house, but your home is here
in the community, in thecongregation.
Jill Peterfeso (16:04):
Yes. And I don't ever want to lose sight of the
fact that I know, and make surestudents remember, this as a
business. This is a corporationthat we're talking about. So we
should never give Disney toomany free passes. Like this
language of Homecoming, as muchas we feel like Disney's
welcoming us with open arms andgiving us a great big bear hug,
(16:25):
they're reaching into our pocketat the same time. Yes, exactly.
Exactly. But sometimes it'slike, go ahead Disney, take my
money. I'll pay for thisexperience.
Carrie Duncan (16:35):
I mean I think that that's a lot of what
marketing does right now, thatyou're not just supposed to have
a phone, you're supposed to havea relationship with your phone,
such that when it breaks or diesor you drop it in the toilet,
you are emotionally upset, thatyou feel that loss, not just for
its convenience, but for itsmeaningfulness to you.
Jill Peterfeso (16:57):
Yeah, um, a couple things on that. A student
did a presentation on Disney andsocial media, and she gave a
quote that I have not been ableto track down yet the origins
of- this was just yesterday- butthat a successful brand is one
that becomes part of a person'ssense of self. So the idea of a
(17:17):
successful, a successful brandis connected to a person's sense
of self, which is just thisreally, very, like how have I
become as a person, a personwith being, you know, in that
deep sense of what "being" isand might be, so connected to my
Apple phone, or my Starbuckscoffee, or my, you know, my
(17:40):
Disney beach towel? I don'tknow. But, you know, these
things happen. And I thinkthat's what a lot of branding is
about. Right now. I'm not anexpert in marketing at all, but
that just really made me think.
It also connects back to, Iwould say, to some deep religion
questions like Who are we? Wheredo we come from? How do we
relate to the world around us?
The other thing I was going tosay is the Disney Parks
(18:02):
experience is credited withcreating the "experience
economy." The fact that we thinkwe need to have an experience
every time we do anything. Itneeds to be an experience that
we can share and inhabit. It'snot just, We're going to watch
this thing and then go home,it's We are going to be
enveloped in it and everything'sgoing to be an experience.
Carrie Duncan (18:22):
Well you have loved Disney for a long time,
way before you ever startedstudying it. I'm guessing way
before you ever thought ofyourself as a religious studies
scholar or student. When did youget started with Disney and what
made that such an important partof your life?
Jill Peterfeso (18:41):
So I'm not inclined to talk about myself
and why I love Disney. But, twothings, one, if emotion is
information, I think we shouldbe asking ourselves these
questions, Why do I have anemotional reaction to this item?
The other thing is, it's sointeresting, when I read
scholarship about Disney,invariably, the scholar
discloses their relationship toDisney if it's anything other
(19:04):
than overtly critical. And Ifind that such an interesting
academic move, and I askedmyself why we need to make it.
Carrie Duncan (19:11):
I was thinking, sometimes, I've been reading
some classes a lot ofparticipant observer
ethnography, I find that thatpeople do more disclosure at the
beginning of that type, butotherwise, yeah, that's just not
a practice that we are taught.
Jill Peterfeso (19:27):
Sure, exactly.
And yeah, and my book that cameout last year is on Roman
Catholic women priests. So thesewomen who have defied the
Catholic Church and have gottenordained, I did feel that I
needed to say in theintroduction to my book, which
was an ethnography, This is myrelationship to Catholicism. But
by and large, I mean evenpractitioners of religions who
(19:48):
are writing academic studiesdon't need to say, I've been
this religious faith for thislong or I had this negative
experience or I've had thispositive experience. But with
Disney, I mean, I'm sitting atmy desk looking at two books
right now, where in the openingpages, the scholar has to say, I
just need to tell you, Iactually really love Disney, but
don't worry, I'm still gonna bereally critical. I'm totally
(20:11):
paraphrasing, but that's what'sgoing on. So I feel like I'm
entering into a good club now asI try to answer your question
about why Disney and how long. Idon't remember anything specific
besides like having those littleDisney books with the records,
the company records as a kid.
And I remember we used to doMickey's Mousersize, which I
(20:36):
still have the music in my head,and I haven't heard that for
decades and decades. I rememberwe had a haunted mansion album,
it was orange, and I used tojust play it and I loved the
scary sounds. And then I went toDisney World for the first time
when I was eight, and there wasjust something about that place
that made total sense to me,without being able to articulate
why. By the time was a teenager,I was able to start to think
(20:59):
about Disney a little more, likeI started to recognize like,
Okay, Disney gives us like threemessages. One is, You can dream
and do anything you want. Two,America is awesome. Three, take
care of nature and animals. So Ito start to distill the big
Disney themes from my time atthe parks. I love Disney, I
(21:19):
respect a lot of what it does,and I'm also very critical of
it. As I tell my students, youknow, as a scholar of
Christianity and Americanhistory, and even like feminist
studies and feminist theology, Ibelieve that when you love
something, you should critiqueit. Like, if you really love
something, challenge it to beits best expression of that
thing. I know, that's notsomething everybody agrees with,
(21:42):
when we look at some debates inthis country about how we can be
better as Americans, how we canbe better citizens of this
planet. I think we should alwaysbe critical while we love
something. And I'm able to holdthat intention, I think, even
though I'm more gushing aboutDisney today. But I definitely
have many critiques aboutDisney. So at this point in my
(22:04):
life, there's so many thingsthat I could say that I really
like and respect about Disney.
But the one that I think sort ofhits it where I am in my life
most is that it's a place,Disney World is a place, which
is connected to Disney, thecorporation, where things work.
Like people put their bestimagination, or creativity, or
customer service, or engineeringskills, or construction skills,
(22:27):
they put that forward, andthey're able to make something
that functions in such acompetent, coherent, and often
life-affirming andlife-energizing way. And I
really respect that. I think, atleast for me, you get to a
certain point in your life whereyou're like, What am I doing
with my life? Where do I spendmy time? And how do I make the
(22:50):
world around me better? And yousee a place that just seems to
do that, and I find that reallyappealing. I also don't want to
dismiss the experience of castmembers who often don't have a
great time working at Disney. Iknow this, that was one of the
things we talked about in mycourse was how the cast members,
for instance, have been treatedaround COVID. So I know my
students went into their parkexperience being much more
(23:13):
sensitive about Okay, these castmembers maybe have had a hard
day, like maybe somebody yelledat them because the cast member
asked them to put a mask on. Ormaybe the cast member is just
really hot or maybe the castmember has the sick relative at
home and they feel the need tokeep smiling because they're at
Disney. So I don't want to eversuggest that we're not thinking
(23:35):
about the human there. But thefact that by and large, you get
a number of humans who step into create, "magic," I really
admire that.
Carrie Duncan (23:45):
It sounds exhausting to have to make magic
for other people all day, everyday as your job, such that if
you don't make the magic, youhave failed at your job that
day.
Jill Peterfeso (23:58):
It's funny. So one of the ways I treated myself
on this trip, because, you know,I wasn't with the students 24/7.
They wanted free time. Theywanted a lot of free time, and I
was happy to give it to them.
But I went to Oga's Cantina,which is in Galaxy's Edge. And
it's very much supposed to belike the Cantina in Star Wars,
like the the original Star Warstrilogy, that experience where
(24:18):
we first meet Han Solo. So Iwent to Oga's Cantina and I
ended up going by myself. Theother people who were supposed
to come with me, did not end upgoing on the trip because of
COVID. So I went by myself tothis bar at Galaxy's Edge. And
I'm standing at the bar, and Imake friends with this group of
young people next to me who areall graduates of the Disney
(24:41):
College Program. Which was, Imean, these young people just
seemed to love the fact thatthey worked for or continue to
work for Disney. And so I ofcourse was picking their brains,
like, Tell me about this. Howdid you get into this? And I
just remember them, the youngman standing next to me who I
talk to the most, he's justlike, I get to make magic for
(25:03):
people, I get to make somebody'sday. And I get to have close
contact with people and put asmile on their face, and that
means everything to me. And Iwas, you know, I of course
pulled on him, you know, I wantto know more than like, but why,
like, why did you want to dothat? And he goes back to his
childhood, like, I've lovedDisney since I was a kid.
(25:24):
Disney, you know, helped me seewho I am. Disney showed me what
it's like to, you know, be afriend. I just love Disney, and
now I get to be part of it. Soagain, I'm thinking of how his
story sort of maps on in manyways to the stories of people
who are religious and stick withit. Like, this has given me a
sense of identity. This hasgiven me a sense of purpose.
(25:46):
This has shown me how to be inthe world. This has shown me the
way I can be my best self in theworld. And I get to do it, and
I'm so fortunate. So I admirethat, I really admire that. I
wish it could be bottled and Icould consume it. Like just
that, that clarity of purposeand vision and being part of
something bigger than myself.
Carrie Duncan (26:08):
So I want to hear more about stories from the
trip. What kinds of amazingmoments did your students have
and report back to you? What didyou have together? What moments
did you have that really gavethem a sense, not just of, Yay,
we're at Disney World, but thatthat crystallized for them the
ideas that you were trying toget them to think about in your
(26:30):
class that relate Disney, as a,Disney as religion and Disney
World as a religious experience?
Jill Peterfeso (26:38):
I didn't, I'll just be clear that the religious
piece was one that I invitedstudents to think through, and I
had a few religious studiesmajors on the trip, and that was
something I had sideconversations with them about.
By and large, I let studentsdrive their own research
projects at the park. But itwas, I will say it was exciting
to have a student who took myDisney class, I had a couple
students who took my Disneyclass a year ago, which was sort
(26:59):
of a Disney and American culturewith overlap with religion, who,
at the time, they were veryskeptical of this idea that
maybe Disney's like a religion.
Like students don't love thisidea. Let me be very clear.
Anyone who wants to try this athome, it's not going to go over
really well right away. Studentshave their own idea of what
religion is. So they're going topush back. By this point, after
having sat with my material, mycourse last fall, and then
(27:22):
coming into the class, they'rekind of like, yeah, Disney's a
religion. And they're ready togo with it. I don't know exactly
what changed for them, but theywere there with me. So that was
pretty cool.
Some of the big takeaways, Ithink, I mean, it's hard to
distill because so many of themhad their own takeaways based on
the project questions they cameinto the parks with. I set it up
(27:45):
again, ethnographically, wherethey were going to go do their
own thing while they were there.
I was going to help steer andguide them, but they each had
things they were looking for orlistening for. I had a student
doing a project on sound,ambient sound, in the park.
Another on color, how is colorused and deployed in different
ways. A student was doing aproject on gardens and
horticulture, the plant lifethat exists at Disney. So they
(28:07):
had their own stuff coming in. Ithink some of the key things
they take away, they definitelynotice Disney's messaging about
positivity, and progress. Like,life is good. We can make it
good with our actions. And thefuture is a bright place. And
(28:28):
we're moving there. And we'removing in that direction in a
way that's good and we should beexcited about. Some of those
messages, I'd say all of thosemessages, go back to Walt in his
own life. Walt died in 1966.
Walt died five years beforeDisney World opened. But he
still has a lot of his imprint,obviously, on Disneyland and
(28:50):
Disney World and just the ethosof the company. The students
were able to pick up on that. Wetalked about it beforehand, but
for them to be able to sit inthe Carousel of Progress and
talk about Oh, the messages areall over that even in the song,
or to talk about things like,just walking around Tomorrowland
or Future World in Epcot and howthese positive messages about
(29:12):
the future and just about lifeare abounding. Something else
they started to think about,which I thought was really cool,
is about the connection betweenmagic and science. What Is Magic
was the title, was sort of thefocus of our class. Like, How is
magic made, with Disneyproviding a series of answers.
One of my great colleagues, DonSmith, in physics at Guilford,
came and gave like an hour-longtalk about physics and
(29:35):
psychology at the HauntedMansion and all these many ways
that the Haunted Mansion, whichwas designed in the '60s, opened
in the '60s at Disneyland and atDisney World, uses just really
basic theatre tricks and physicstricks. But it continues to be
one of the most beloved popularrides that endures. It's like,
we're going on 50 plus years-oldnow, and that ride works so
(29:59):
well. And students were able tosee, magic is not simply
somebody behind the scenes iswaving a wand, but really smart
people are are deploying thesescientific tricks and innovating
science in order to create anexperience like the Haunted
Mansion or like the Tower ofTerror or like the
(30:22):
fill-in-the-blank with prettymuch any ride. Star Tours was
something else we rode, which isa flight simulator, basically.
It's a ride that opened in the'90s at Disneyland and there was
one at Disney World. It's aflight simulator, and you're
moving, and you feel like you'removing, but it was put to tell a
story about you in the middle ofa Star Wars adventure. So that
storytelling combined withtechnology and innovation in
(30:46):
order to create an experience.
They've also talked a lot, thiswas sort of from day one of the
course, storytelling, and howeverything comes down to story.
I think religion is the sameway. I think religion exists
because humans like to tellstories and we can hold abstract
thoughts in our heads. Studentswere able to recognize how just
walking down Main Street USA, orjust walking down Sunset
(31:08):
Boulevard in Hollywood Studios,or just walking around Animal
Kingdom, you are part of astory, because Disney has made
sure you are part of a worldthat is all detailed and
immersive. We noticed that trashcans are everywhere at Disney
World, because Walt wantedthings to be clean, but those
trash cans are themed to fitwhatever world you are in. The
(31:30):
trash can at Expedition Everestin Animal Kingdom is not the
same as the trash can on MainStreet USA. Why would they be?
Of course. So you notice this,even the way the ground has been
constructed and detailed isdifferent. So everything is
different around you. And sothey think about that, they came
to think about that in terms ofstory, and rides put you in the
(31:51):
middle of a story. Like you'reon this adventure, and you're
there with it. I think the otherbig takeaway that they really
loved, and I get this, got thisfrom the Imagineering
documentary on Disney+, butthere's a formula that
Imagineers think about, and it'ssomething like this, fear minus
death equals fun.
(32:16):
And they love that. They want toput it on a t-shirt. Fear minus
death equals fun. And that allconnects to story, but also that
Disney is about letting youexperience something and come
out okay. And there's something,there's a word that came up in
one of our readings from JohnHench, who was an Imagineer and
(32:36):
a later Disney executive, and hewas talking about that, Disney
is not an, escape Disney isreassurance. And that word
"reassurance" came up a lot,over and over again. We're not
trying to create a place for youto escape, we're trying to
reassure you about the world youinhabit and your place in it.
And so that fear minus death,I'm sorry, yeah, "fear minus
death equals fun", was anotherthing. So many of the
(32:58):
attractions at Disney World areabout Here, you're going,
something's happening. Oh, myGod, something terrible is
happening now. This isunexpected. Are we going to make
it? Oh, yes, we made it. And youfinish. So like three minutes
later, five minutes later,you've defeated death and you've
had fun and you have a smile onyour face. And how so that's
just sort of like a formula forhow things work and how things
(33:21):
work at Disney. So those aresome of the key things that
students took away in terms ofbigger picture intellectual
experiential things.
Carrie Duncan (33:31):
Do you think that having that kind of environment
where sort of the ultimate badis not an option is especially
reassuring in a time like we'reexperiencing now? Was going to
Disney during a pandemic andbeing in this highly
(33:52):
constructed, and ultimately, atleast safe-seeming environment
different because of everythingelse that's happening? I'm
trying to reconcile the ideathat Disney can somehow
guarantee a lack of death asbeing in some ways, I don't
(34:12):
know, it seems like it's a falsenarrative, however, reassuring
it is.
Jill Peterfeso (34:19):
Yeah, I mean, I hear the implied critique and I
think that's fair. For sure. Idon't think Disney thinks it's
in the business of chaplaincy,for instance, they're not trying
to guide you to death. They'retrying to reassure you that
everything is going to be okay.
Like, that's the businessthey're in. So, your question is
really interesting. Part of mewants to say I don't know a time
(34:39):
in the last 60-70 years ofDisney parks that Americans
haven't needed reassurance aboutsomething. 20 years ago it was
9/11. We've had the Vietnam War,we've had, I mean, pick a time
in history and I think Americansare stressed about something,
probably.
Carrie Duncan (34:58):
Fair enough.
Jill Peterfeso (34:59):
But I do think there will probably be some
really interesting researchcoming out in the next couple of
years about Disney during COVID.
My own very limited observationhas been that social media
engagement with Disney, writlarge movies, parks, merchandise
has really ticked up a lotduring the pandemic, that people
(35:21):
have turned to social media toconnect them with that which
they love at Disney, just anexample, using Disney as an
example here. So I think you'reprobably right, that being at
Disney World was reassuring insome narrative way for my
students. I will alsoacknowledge and honor that many
(35:43):
of them were very nervous attimes throughout the trip. I
want to brag about our group,that we did not get COVID. My
students wore masks almost theentire trip. Even when it was
not required outdoors at Disney,many of them just kept their
masks on. They were verycautious and careful. So, but I
know that that anxiety wasthere, for me, for sure, and
(36:05):
definitely for many of them, notif not all of them, but a lot of
them just had a lot of veryoutward anxiety about the COVID
thing. So I don't know how muchthe Disney Magic of reassurance
allowed them to not experiencethe fear of contracting and
passing on COVID. I do thinkthere is a moment at Disney for
(36:25):
everyone where you're just sortof swept up. And you don't
necessarily have to be thinkingabout that which scares you
most, and I do think thathappened for all my students at
some point, if not, if not manypoints on the trip.
Carrie Duncan (36:41):
That's just so interesting. When I was thinking
about sort of Disney andreligion, I kept coming back to
the idea of Utopia, and the waysin which Disney functions as a
utopian community. And I thinkthat a lot of the themes that
you've brought up here resonatein that way. But I also then
felt like most utopiancommunities don't make it for
(37:05):
the long haul. What do youthink? I mean, first of all, do
you think that that I am rightto make that connection? And do
you think that Disney has foundsort of a formula to be a
successful, utopian community?
Jill Peterfeso (37:22):
I think when I think of the utopian attempts in
American religious history,often the problem is they were
too highly principled. And thatgets you into trouble when you
run into trouble. I don't thinkDisney has the same, they don't
have the same masters. Utopiancommunities are often trying to
serve God and community in a waythat was gonna to be hard
(37:45):
because people are messy. Disneyis sort of unapologetic about it
being a corporate. likemonolith. But yes, I mean, to
your point about Disney andutopia, yeah, I mean, this is
something I think a lot ofpeople who are interested in
Disney have looked into. Theidea of Utopia- Walt himself was
an urban planner. He did a lotof urban planning. Disney World,
(38:07):
what we know now as Walt DisneyWorld was initially really
supposed to be like a city thatfunctioned in a futuristic, for
the time, for the 1960s, way.
And Epcot itself was reallysupposed to be a place where
people could live and work andhave recreation all in one
place. A lot changed when Waltdied. Walt died five years
(38:29):
before Walt Disney World opened.
So things had to change, changein terms of that vision. And
what you end up with in Floridais sort of like a Disneyland but
with a lot more space to grow.
So yes, urban planning, andDisney is absolutely there. The
other thing that I think aboutin terms of, I wouldn't, I am
careful to juxtapose utopia withthe next term I'm going to
(38:50):
introduce, which is "City on aHill", but I think those two
things can go together. So theCity on a Hill idea, of course,
comes from the the Puritans inNew England, you know, 1630s
arriving in order to create theperfect Christian town. And they
wanted to be a city on a hill,and they wanted the people back
(39:11):
in England, who basically wereso annoyed with them that the
Puritans left, they wanted themto look at what they created in
New England and be like, Okay,they had it right. Look at how
great that is. Like, We are thecity on the hill. We are going
to live together in community,and we are going to make God so
proud. And we're gonna live outthis Christian vision. I think
in many ways, you could thinkabout Disney as sort of an
(39:35):
American, a 20th centuryAmerican city on a hill in that
there's no question that Disneyis a beacon to the rest of the
world, or at least insofar as itis an American export that has
traveled globally. And there areparks in Asia, there's a park in
Paris, outside Paris. So yeah,there's some appeal here in the
(40:01):
park environment that Disney hascreated that is, again, utopian
or city on a hill, or someaspect of urban planning that
has really worked and beenreplicated and sent around the
world.
Carrie Duncan (40:20):
So I want to ask whether you've encountered
skepticism. I know you said thatyou had some students who took a
little while of digesting beforethey came around to, to a
willingness to think aboutDisney from a religious studies
kind of perspective. Whatpushback, if any, have you
gotten from administrators orparents or colleagues about the
(40:43):
idea that you can teach arigorous and academically
stimulating religious studies,or college course of any
discipline about Disney? Do youhave a way of explaining sort of
your objectives that helps themmake sense of that? And and what
would you say why? Why does thismatter? What is important about,
(41:04):
what what can we learn aboutourselves and about society?
From this particular topic?
Jill Peterfeso (41:11):
I think, I think the challenges I have with
students around this topic, arethe are the arguments I use for
why it matters. So students, asI said earlier, everybody, every
even like international studentsknow know what Disney is, they
may know it to differentdegrees, they may have different
(41:31):
emotional relationships toDisney. This thing that produces
movies and TV shows and musicand theme parks and also owns
ESPN and ABC and is reallygrowing in its size. People know
Disney in some degree. So askingstudents to think critically
about Disney can be verychallenging, because they think
they already know all they needto know. And there is definite
(41:53):
resistance to thinking deeplycritically. And when I say
critically, I don't meanharshly. But that sometimes gets
involved in it too. Right? Okay,is Disney doing something
problematic with this messaging?
What is Disney saying aboutrace? What is Disney saying
about heteronormativity, and howdoes that limit cultural ideas
about LGBTQIA people? What isDisney saying about how you
(42:15):
achieve success in the Americandream? If I'm not, "winning" as
a person, is it because I'm notvirtuous as so many Disney
heroes and heroines are. Sothinking critically, can be
really a barrier that studentseventually get through. When I
get some skepticism fromparents. I mean, I don't talk to
(42:35):
a lot of parents as a collegeprofessor, but I certainly hear
it, you know, from other friendsI have who have kids and just
parents in general, like there'salways like that single eyebrow,
like, really, you're going toteach a college class on Disney.
That sounds like fun. And I'mlike, Yeah, see, that's the
thing, students sign up thinkingit's going to be fun. They think
they're going to watch movies.
(42:56):
And instead, we go so deeplyinto something they thought they
already knew. And they realizethey didn't know it at all. And
now they have an opportunity tosee it a new and that. If that's
not like a crash course incritical thinking, and
reassessing how you think aboutthe world and see the world, I
don't know what is. So one ofthe things I love about what I
(43:19):
get to teach Christianity inAmerica, by and large is that I
get to make the familiar,unfamiliar. I get to take
something that people think theyknow, and I turn it into
something they realize theydidn't know. And that is a new
form of empowerment and a newway of seeing and thinking. So I
really have not found anyone whocould respond to my claim that
(43:41):
teaching Disney, especially tofirst year students and newer
students to college is reallyone of the best ways to get them
to critically think for thereasons that I've laid out. So
yeah, students sometimes don'twant to think critically about
Disney. And I've had studentswhen I taught my three
iterations of this course, theDisney course to first year
students, every time I taughtit, there's some time and I
(44:04):
taught it in the fall, sometimearound like late September,
early October, I would come intoclass and the vibe was weird. I
finally recognized it after likea year or two, but I was like,
What's wrong, y'all? And they'relike, You are ruining our
childhood. I got some version ofthat every timeYou are ruining
our childhood. And then we hadto stop and have a conversation
(44:26):
about what it meant to doschool, and what it meant to
think deeply. And is there a waythat we can love something,
think deeply about it and comeback to it? And I think this is
something that teachingreligious studies prepared me
for really well, because again,teaching Christianity for the
past 10 years plus, longer thanthat 15, you get students who
(44:49):
suddenly start to seeChristianity critically like
they actually read the Bible ina historical context, or they
learn that the history ofChristian traditions is very
different than what theythought. And that can be
jarring, it can knock them outof their, their comfortable
orbit. But I've been used tohaving conversations with those
students, as they're sort oflike trying to pick up the
(45:11):
pieces. And it's very possibleto reconstruct those pieces into
something stronger and moremeaningful. And, well I know I
stand ready to do that withstudents and Disney, if that's
where they want to go, if that'ssomething that means that much
to them. So credit to religiousstudies for helping us to have
hard conversations that might bea little earth and identity
(45:31):
shattering, but we canreconstruct ultimately.
Carrie Duncan (45:35):
So for our listeners who have now learned a
lot about Disney and a lot aboutthinking about it in new and
different ways, what should theytake away? What would what would
you like, folks who havelistened to this conversation to
take away to reflect on abouttheir own life about sort of
things that maybe they hadn'tthought about?
Jill Peterfeso (45:54):
I think the big takeaway is one, I would just
invite anybody who's listeningto think about how religion may
not just be something inchurches or synagogues or
temples, like where actually dowe see and make religion in our,
in our world. My guess is, we'llsee that it's a lot more places
than we thought. But if you dowant to start to think deeply
(46:14):
about Disney, I would start byjust looking at where Disney has
popped up in your life, becauseit's probably in a lot more
places than you realize. Andit's probably given you messages
and memories that you areunaware of until you stop to
sort of piece them all together.
And I think those are two prettysimple ways to begin to think
more deeply about this. It's notunlike the ways I've started
(46:37):
some of my classes. One of myfavorite things that there's a
story that is credited to DavidFoster Wallace. And I use it a
lot in my own thinking about myteaching. But you probably know
this, Carrie, but it's the storyof like, there are two fish that
are just swimming in the in theocean do-do-do, hanging out
chatting, and another fish swimsby them and says, Hi, guys, the
(46:58):
water is lovely today, isn't it?
And then he keeps on goingdo-do-do and the fish keep
going, the two, and one stopsand turns to the other and says,
Wait, what's water? And I lovethat because I feel like it's
the perfect analogy for culture.
Like we're immersed in thisstuff, but we never stop and
think about what exactly it isand how it is literally giving
us oxygen, and how it isliterally sort of dictating how
(47:22):
we move in the world. So if wecan just stop and start to ask
ourselves, wait, what is thewater? What is that which is
around us that we haven't evenrecognized? I think we'll find
some really cool things aboutthe world and ourselves. For me
right now, that's Disney. Andit's also religion and religious
culture and I just invitestudents and others to
participate in that discoverywith me.
Carrie Duncan (47:45):
Thank you so much. This has been such a
fabulous conversation.
Jill Peterfeso (47:48):
Thank you for having me.
Chip Gruen (47:52):
This has been ReligionWise a podcast produced
by the Institute for Religiousand Cultural Understanding of
Muhlenberg College. For moreinformation and additional
programming, please visit ourwebsite at
religionandculture.com. There,you'll find our contact
information, links to otherprogramming and have the
opportunity to support the workof the Institute. ReligionWise
(48:15):
is produced by the staff of theInstitute for Religious and
Cultural Understanding ofMuhlenberg College, including
Christine Flicker and CarrieDuncan. Please subscribe to
ReligionWise wherever you getyour podcasts. We look forward
to seeing you next time.
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