November 15, 2024 • 46 mins
On this episode of ReligionWise, scholar Lilianne Lugo Herrera guides us through the vibrant world of Afro-Caribbean religious practice, with a special focus on Cuban traditions. From the intimate spaces of home altars to the dramatic possibilities of theatrical performance, we explore how these sacred traditions continue to pulse through Caribbean cultural life, shaping art, identity, and community across generations.
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Chip Gruen (00:04):
Today's episode features Lilianne Lugo Herrera,
Muhlenberg College who is aprofessor of Spanish in the
cultures department. Her work isparticularly interested in Afro
like Oshun and Santeria, though,the details of this belief and
(00:24):
well known in public discourseabout religion, they are
changing demographic patternsand the way that information
example, you might be familiarwith Santeria from a Supreme
Florida. Likewise, you might befamiliar with the confluence or
(00:48):
Virgin Mary in in veneration andpractice of South Florida
Religious and CulturalUnderstanding, which produces
goals, or two main objectives inits mission statement, one of
of this podcast, that is that weare interested in enhancing the
(01:10):
we think about religion inpublic life. The other objective
enhancing religious literacy. Ithink this conversation today
simultaneously. There is a need,particularly as these traditions
might see about them in mediaoutlets, in popular culture, in
(01:36):
diaspora Caribbean populationsbecome larger and larger, I
important to understand thebelief and practice of these
least traditionally been as wellrepresented in our world. We're
somebody like Dr. Lugo Herrerawith us here at Muhlenberg to
(01:59):
to expose our students to areally rich and complicated and
how these religions developedfrom Africa across the Middle
Caribbean and then becamesyncretized and blended with
(02:20):
the beliefs and practices thatwe can see today. The other
work that we should payattention to is that she is also
are translated in literature,and in particular in the
work as a teacher and a scholar,she also is active in the
(02:43):
produced, directed plays thatfocus on or center these
highlighting the stories fromthese traditions. So I hope you
excited to have thisconversation, to learn more
more about her interest in them,and how she came to study this
here. So without further ado,here's our conversation.
(03:10):
for coming on ReligionWise.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (03:12):
Thanks for having me.
Chip Gruen (03:13):
So I did a little introduction in the beginning
heard, and I'm going to give youan opportunity to introduce
second. But I want to start offwith just getting a taste of
a taste of the subject matter,and get you to talk about that,
little bit of the biography. Sothere are a lot of layers to the
(03:37):
have. So I want to sort of startgenerally, and then we can drill
religious communities thatyou're interested in as Afro
is a potentially contestedcategory as well. On the
fairly self explanatory, but themore you look at it, the more
(03:59):
talk about that term, how it'suseful, how it's not useful, how
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (04:03):
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So the
the work that I do is focus onthe Caribbean and its diasporas
prefer to use the term, forinstance, like use the Black
religions, since they involvecountries that are in the
(04:27):
any other country that have alsothis influence from slaves that
slave trade, and they develop anew set of religions, oftentimes
or with Catholic saints, and wehave this sort of Afro,
throughout the Americas. But nowalso, we live in a world and a
(04:53):
practitioners of Santeria, forinstance, and they may live in
world. So we can also talk aboutAfro diasporic religions in a
religions even. But I still useAfro Caribbean to make this
origin and the traditions thatthis religions still have their
(05:19):
to base the geographic regionthat I'm also interested in, so
diasporas.
Chip Gruen (05:27):
So I want to chase down a couple of those strands
But before we get there, I'mgoing to give you your
biography. How did you come tobe interested in these
training inform the way that youstudy these materials? I always
college professors, you know, wehave an arc. We have an origin
(05:51):
not always so innocently, butthrough a complicated history.
about about the arc that led youto where you are today?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (05:57):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was born in
long ago, 10 years ago, and Idid my my bachelor, I did a BFA
was born in Santa Clara, whichis a city in the middle of the
up, Cuba to practice ofreligion, and Cuba was not, was
(06:22):
accepted. So I grew up in ahouse where there was no
whatsoever. And even if myparents had been baptized as
practice Catholicism at all. Iremember that the first time
after 1998 when Pope John Paulthe second visit Cuba, and it
(06:46):
Christmas was allowed. Andsuddenly there was it was
considered even a holiday. Butwe didn't celebrate it as a
caught a branch of a pine treeand we decorated with some
and that was it. So I didn'tgrew up with with with any sort
(07:08):
background, but then I gotfascinated by an artist. Her
Black Cuban print maker. Shedied in 1999 she was very young,
world that, for me, wasfascinating, but I hadn't heard
(07:29):
Abakua world. So the SociedadSecreta Abakua, the religious,
kind of a Free Masonry society,all male. It's secret. No women
society. And then you have thisartist that is trying to get
(07:50):
of visual representation for aworld that doesn't have one, but
view of an outsider. So she reada lot, this artist, Belkis Ayon,
and the literature that existedat the time, and she created
centered the character, acharacter named Sikan, which in
(08:11):
actually founds the secret. Itwas a fish she was fishing in in
catches this fish called Tanze,that is the representation or
God, and the fish speaks to her,and it gives her the secret. And
Sikan belongs to, they becomemore powerful because they have
(08:36):
the secret to be disseminated.
But according to some versionssecret because she tells a story
to her husband when she'sHer skin is used to make drum,
but the drum doesn't work. Theydrum resonate with the voice of
the secret of Tanze. She'sthey eventually make, managed to
(09:00):
make the drum sound with a skindrums work, right with in this
many of these religions, butall of this, and the position of
this founding character of theany sort of representation, and
(09:22):
women are not allowed in societyme, that world that she created
was fascinating. I startedabout it. And also, at the time
I was in the in the university,someone that it was that came to
be initiated in Santeria, so Iexperience firsthand what their
(09:44):
religion was, and to learn sopassionate about it, but it was
always from a point of view ofwith these representations,
because I was studying theaterBelkis Ayon. So. I was always
interested in seeing thatbetween how something exists in
the world and is practiced bythat it's brought to the stage
(10:09):
and has a second life in a way.
for for some time, I've beendoing other things too, but I've
many works that incorporatereligious Africa, Afro religious
Chip Gruen (10:31):
So I want to sort of drill down. And I'm not sure if
question or if this is sort of abroader cultural question, but
these, some of your firstinteractions with, you know,
through the visit of Pope JohnPaul, and then the celebration
(10:54):
heels of that sort of exposureto this esoteric, right, secret
follow this one down. But I'mthinking about, right, whether
your, you know, developing mindabout these ideas, rather,
between sort of a mainstreamreligious practice and that
(11:19):
the one hand, that that's aninteresting dichotomy to me. On
thing that I want us to thinkabout is all of these strands
you mentioned. So there's theCatholic strand, there's the
comes by way of the slave trade.
I'm not sure if there arecomes together. So can you talk
about the sort of the collisionit be personally right or or
(11:44):
sort of more generically, forpractice?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (11:50):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's so complicated,
about specific deities, and I'mgoing to put an example with the
this is a saint that it haschurches built around her,
(12:12):
representation that pretty muchties with with any other
Mary. But then for Cubans, whenwe see the Virgin of Charity,
which is a goddess from theYoruba tradition. And according
(12:34):
was a great scholar of Caribbeanstudies, he mentioned that in
Charity deity. There's also someelements, especially in the
Taino deities call onoho. So wedefinitely have those different
(12:58):
today, I think it's hard toseparate them in a way, in the
raised as Catholic all theirlife could because the slaves
19th century, as they couldn'tpractice their religions, they
Catholicism that would allowthem to venerate their own gods
(13:25):
images. So Oshun is usuallydepicted as having yellow
so we have this virgin that isalso dressing yellow clothes. So
thing. So for someone that wasthat grew up being just
(13:47):
that other elements of thereligion, but certainly today in
would say there is much morepeople practicing Afro Santeria.
Chip Gruen (14:00):
So as I think, our listeners will recognize that
the belief and practice aroundthis category Afro Caribbean.
know, you mentioning Santeria,and Oshun, and I'm going to
right, that that's a part ofthis world. So one what is the
(14:24):
things? If we go to to Cuba, forexample, that we can imagine
strands or various syncretisms,where these things are mixed
ways. So is this one thing, oris this many things? How do you
how do people who practice thesetraditions think about that
(14:44):
know, in their own neighborhood,in their own context?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (14:46):
Yeah, it really depends on, on how, on
has, right if, if someone grewup being strict Catholic, then
just see the depictions of ofspecific saints in the walls,
light a candle as a way ofoffering, but there, there might
(15:10):
religion, even if they are notcompletely initiated. So we call
have made Ocha. But some otherpeople might have an inclination
saints, on those in thatreligion, even if they are not
people that have faith in, say,Oshun and Chango, all of these
(15:33):
Yoruba and Yemoja Pantheon, theymight go to the church and give
necessarily just a candle. Theymight bring, say, specific
case, our sunflower, that's theflower that she prefers. They
(15:54):
instance, using the depiction ofthe Virgin of Charity, they
offering, like sweets. Forinstance, she likes, she pretty
some anything sweet, honey, etc.
So they might use the Catholicoffering to Oshun. So someone
visiting the island, forare initiators, that are
(16:17):
santeros. They are completelyyear of their religion, and they
go to the Catholic Church.
they complete in theirinitiation. So there is so much
religions that it's very hard tosay, Okay, well, this is, this
just pure Santeria, because theyare very much ingrained.
Chip Gruen (16:38):
Okay, so I'm sort of playing this out in my head,
that, that traveler and I go toHavana, I'm thinking about
church, like I could go to aCatholic Church in Havana, and
(16:58):
the Virgin Mary, I might see litcandles that doesn't that
also see sweets right in thatCatholic Church.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (17:07):
So it really depends on the churches.
churches won't like to see likefood in the in the church, but
flowers.
Chip Gruen (17:16):
Okay. Definitely the flowers.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (17:18):
Yeah, the sun flowers.
Chip Gruen (17:19):
And so any space that is, and I know I'm trying
boundaries here, but if we wereto imagine worship space that
would be domestic space, right?
That would you we have thisin the church. But there might
(17:40):
be domestic space that is morea part of these Afro Caribbean
practice?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (17:47):
Yes. So usually the santeros, they they
a material form. It's what youcall a sopera, like a soup bowl
sayings, the representations aremostly stones. But these stones
(18:10):
so they need to be covered andand it depending on some people
like flowers and sometimesartificial or sometimes natural.
other things, even like curtainsof the color of the saint, etc.
(18:36):
where people keep their saints,those that they received during
and most of the time when theyhave their Saint birthday on the
will do like a great party,inviting their religious
(18:58):
on The celebration. And youwould have great amounts of
and definitely some some otherreligious practices, yeah.
Chip Gruen (19:12):
So to be clear, there's no if you landed in
you know the the church ofOshun, right? Or take me to the
is not, there's not ever like apublic representation of that,
(19:34):
it would be private. The thingsthat are public are are more
Catholic, more officialreligious identity, is that
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (19:44):
So it really depends, because, for
for for Oshun, the Virgin ofCharity in Cuba, is going to be
It's the eastern part of thecountry, and I haven't been
have like a second floor wherethey have all sorts of gifts
(20:12):
Virgin of Charity. I believethat there is, there is even the
and donated to Cuba, and I thinkit's there. But don't quote me
prizes and pictures and manygifts, and in many of those
(20:34):
blurry, right? It's blurry.
What, what kind of gifts are foror for Oshun, you know what I
mean. In Havana, there is theand that that virgin is
syncretized with Yemaya orthe sea. And this church is in
(20:55):
the Bay of Havana. And you willchurch, many people like
fulfilling promises that theyalso the sanctuary of Saint San
Lazaro. Saint Lazarus was wasyou would see as well, people
(21:17):
fulfilling their promises to thesome santeros around the area or
so there's definitely in someinteraction, but in terms of the
offering, sometimes, as I said,working in the church would be
(21:40):
more hesitant to allow for
Chip Gruen (21:44):
Yeah. I mean, the reason I'm chasing this down,
this is because it seems likethere is a dichotomy going on
private, between official andunofficial, between I would
gender distinction here,hierarchy, marginality, right?
(22:06):
of the Catholic, hierarchical,male, empowered, right, sort of
dichotomy, whereas the moreinformal or more, I mean, again,
happening on the other side isthat, is that a decent read?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (22:21):
Yes, absolutely. And I mean, in the
Cuba with public space iscomplicated as well, because of,
did not allow for, I mean, topractice any religion or sort of
so many people that would openlypractice any sort of religion
(22:42):
universities, or they would losetheir jobs, etc. So it wasn't
actually practice that you couldconduct in public. So even if
Afro Cuban religion, theywouldn't be able to dress in
instance, like initiatives inSanteria, they dress in white
(23:05):
couldn't do that, because theneverybody would notice that
religion. But in the last twodecades or so, there's been much
street, because there has beenmore there's, it's actually been
(23:25):
in terms of gender, there'scertainly many tensions in
like the one that I wasmentioned before, the Sociedad
male society. And some other forinstance, in Cuba, the Regla de
level than that would be to be aBabalaw, who's someone that can
(23:50):
for this religion. Women cannotbe initiated in Ifa, but
more Santeria is much morepermissible, so both women and
also tensions inside each of thereligions regarding gender.
Chip Gruen (24:08):
So I want to zoom out a little bit, right? We've
conversation on Cuban practice.
But when we zoom out a littleCaribbean generally, obviously
there's a really complicatedSpanish and Portuguese and
French. And I want to get in athese things, how we make
(24:34):
categories, and we think,past can affect who's interested
and for what reason. So, forpeople who are who study French
and Francophone diasporainterested there, whereas, of
course, in Cuba, the Spanishcan you talk a little bit about
(24:57):
how the category of Afrolinguistic and and the
distinctions made in theaffects, you know, going to
school to study these thingswith silos, right, because of
the differences in linguistic
Lilianne Lugo Herre (25:17):
Absolutely, yeah, it's, it's a question of
definitely the need in order tostudy something fully. Most of
understand the language in whichthis practices are performed.
(25:37):
And so I think that now more andmore people are even producing
the US, and I can mention acouple of examples, but for a
studies existed only in thelanguage of each specific area,
(25:59):
scholarship around Afro Cubanreligions, was produced in
scholar in that area, LydiaCabrera. She came to the US
donated all her papers to, forinstance, University of Miami,
They have their collectionthere, and now her work has been
(26:24):
work "El Monte". It's now fullyavailable in English, but for
So there's definitely that lack.
So people that wanted to study,and talk to the people there in
Spanish as well, in terms ofthe US. I learned French, for
instance, but I did not learnsomething that has limited my
(26:48):
own understanding of Vodou. IVodou, so I am much more versed
in the Hispanic area that and ininstance, yeah, I but, but
again, there are some scholarstransdisciplinary and across
(27:13):
languages to to these practices.
Portuguese, so there'sdefinitely a crossings of
hopefully will be moreaccessible.
Chip Gruen (27:30):
Another one of those kind of 20,000 foot questions
African of the Afro Caribbean, Ithink, I mean, I'm no, no
even from an outsider'sperspective, looking, you know,
thinking about culturalproductions and so forth, that
(27:51):
ethnicity just seem, I mean,those categories are defined
encounter those categories, youknow, in the in the States. Can
that? And is that a, you know,so even hearing you talk about,
like, if you look at a snapshotof a neighborhood in Cuba, like
(28:12):
a great diversity. Can you helpus understand the way that about
I mean, you can take Cuba as anexample and how that might be
what we might be used to in theUnited States.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (28:25):
Yeah, it's a huge difference in Cuba
appearance. So people that lookwhite, they would be defined as
grandparents are were Black,because it's very much about
(28:50):
skin tone, skin, skin tone. Andthere, there is such a such a
in this in the Cuban society.
And to be mulatto or mixed race,in Cuba are, right there is
there's so much, yeah, so muchmixture of the white and the
(29:17):
Black, that and I don't see thathere in the US, there's this
difference of ethnicity andCuban, but here in the US, I'm a
Latino. So there's that, there'sare in terms of race in a
(29:39):
culture and what you are and howrace and ethnicity in a do in a
different country, that is verygoing back to the religions, one
thing that I do love about this,diasporic religionis that once
you get into one of thesedoesn't matter. You are part of
(30:06):
the clan, and of course, thea white person, doing, you know,
brujeria, witchcraft and as adoesn't mean that you are not
accepted into that clan. AndUS, Aiesha Beliso-De Jesus, that
actually she argues thatthrough initiation,
(30:33):
practitioners adopt a BlackThey are not impersonating a
race. They are not Black, right?
that Black epistemology. And Ithink that's really interesting
these religions create their ownsort of acceptance and community
(30:59):
Black or being white or beingmulatto.
Chip Gruen (31:02):
So I want to go back to something else that you
because you come to this as youhad have described, through the
productions. So I say othercultural productions, because
something that people do, right?
It's a cultural production, butthings that people do, and so
these things bump up against onemean, you've mentioned a little
(31:25):
bit about the theater here, butabout your work and
representation of thesemaybe, maybe even both
representation andgot to think that that's a
that's a big part of it as well.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (31:45):
Yeah, the work that I analyze is usually
that is decent, and I prefer tofocus on that there are many,
misrepresentation of all sortsof Afro diasporic religions in
try to analyze the sort ofrepresentation that allow us not
(32:11):
practice, but also to thinkthrough societal, societal
diversity and many differentissues, and also that many of
more visibility towards wideraudiences for these practices,
(32:31):
playwrights that I studied, andCuban playwrights, Eugenio
Fernandez Santana, they try tobring the myths that the origin
and tell stories through them,which is something that we have
Greek myths. And they are nowthese pillars of society. But
(32:58):
come from the oral tradition ofthese religions that people do
really interesting, and they cantell us a lot about human
people, as people in a society,in a couple and and, and they
strategies of telling this, themyths, Black diasporic religions
(33:23):
has been present in dance intheater, and they have great
emotional states. And also,there's so much in the rhythm of
(33:46):
There's also the anotherreligious trend that I didn't
which is practiced in theHispanic Caribbean and Cuba. And
connect us to the dead, and andthat it's very powerful too,
think through the invisible,right, or through what it's
(34:11):
we interact with this, withpresences that we that were with
anymore, where they went, whathappened with that spirituality
So in the theater, we also getto to process our grief in some
ways of thinking through throughpain and death.
Chip Gruen (34:36):
So when we're thinking about these playwrights
intended audience for theseworks? Is it meant to translate
linguistically, but translatethese experiences, these, this,
outside audience, or is itintended to be a mirror to the
(34:57):
recognize? And it's sort ofmaking something, you know,
the raw material of theirtraditions that they're proud
that affects the productiongreatly, thinking about, you
Lilianne Lugo Herre (35:14):
Absolutely, and it really depends. I am
article on three playwrightsthat depict in different ways
their works. And one productionwas the playwright is called
(35:34):
is called "Mare Nostrum", "OurSea" though it was translated as
years ago here in the US, um.
And in that play, for instance,the middle of the sea. They are
trying to escape a country thatmight be Cuba, and they might be
(35:55):
trying to get to the US. Butthat could be relatable to many
people, and there are many.
Virgin appears and talks tothem. And some people that know
Charity and Oshun, they willrecognize some signposts there
(36:21):
recognized. But some otherpeople might watch this
these are three women that arelost in the sea and they are
to return to go ahead, and howto survive with the little food
decision of what to do, there'sanother play that I studied by
(36:43):
maker here in the US of Cubanorigin. But she has, she has
of her life, CarmelitaTropicana, that's her stage
which we have an apparition ofthe Virgin that is actually
language. So it's, it's, it'sdoing, it's, it's playful, it's
(37:07):
It's not going to be interpretedas only one saying from one
interpreted as a powerfulreligious personification of
intervening in that specificmoment of the action. So and
beauty of theater, that onething can be many things for
(37:31):
the and the way that theplaywrights, directors, actors
make a point about religionitself, but to use religion as
the lives of the characters.
Chip Gruen (37:45):
So we've been talking a little bit about, you
diaspora communities in the US.
I mean, obviously the Cubanthe Cuban American community,
excuse me, in South Florida isone, and that's not the only
place. And I'm thinking aboutof religious diversity and how
(38:08):
these Afro Caribbean religiousexample, if people know of
Santeria at all, they might knowin a Hialeah, Florida, for
example, or I don't know, Ihow do you see the integration
(38:29):
of this rich tapestry ofmore and more visible in
American life, how do you seedifferent than it was 10 years
ago? Where do you see it going?
(38:50):
you know, how do you see thesetraditions sort of being
a part of the larger religiouslife of the country?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (39:01):
That's a really interesting question. I
I've been living here in theNortheast for my second year. So
know about the US yet. And Ithink that even though there is,
diversity and more more publicconversation about diversity. At
(39:27):
the last years, there's also abig push back towards
ideas of or a more polarizedview about what is right and
religions, they have ideas ofwhat is right or is wrong that
(39:51):
black and white. They are theythere are many shades in there.
am not sure that. That more andmore people will understand what
there is much more publicconversation about what these
(40:15):
practicants look like and what'swhat's their worldview, there's
these things, these topics.
Yeah, but, but, and I wanted toattempts to give more visibility
to to these religions and todiversity do exist already, even
(40:38):
if it's not entirely visiblecertain areas of the political
discourse. And this is a bookTsang. It's called, "Spirited
Diasporas, Personal NarrativesAfro-Atlantic Religions". And it
has first person testimonies ofworld, but here in the US, I was
(41:06):
very surprised to know aboutin Boston and Regla de Ocha
Santeria communities in Chicago,in the US, and many of the
people that do these testimoniesgeographical region. Say
they're, they have, do not haveThey are Americans, or they are
(41:31):
British, or, you know, they're,the world that do not have a
personal ethnical or origin tothey are attracted to them
because of their because ofterms of gender and sexuality
and how many of these religionsbeing that it's not tied to this
(41:55):
heteronormative paradigm oflong, long answer, short, I do
think there is, there is hopethese religions. And I think
this, many of these communitiestime, we need, we need to do
more.
Chip Gruen (42:16):
Yeah, so I'm something that you and I in the
going to do a little commercialhere, because we do on campus.
and we do on campus theWorldViews program, which
about their own religiousexperiences, to to enhance
And if you're out there andyou're within shouting distance
(42:38):
want to come and talk aboutSanteria or or Oshun, or any of
always looking for a Rastafarianto come on, or somebody from
whatever. I absolutely agree,like this is something that
it's hard for somebody like meto tap into those communities
(43:01):
know, trusting enough right tohave to have their worldview
but I think it's, it's good foreverybody, it's good for the
better level of acceptance. Andit's and it's good for us,
understand our world better so,so reach out to us at our at our
religionandculture.com and findthe information where you can
(43:25):
get you on WorldViews. So thequestion I always like to finish
try to be really aware of my ownmyopia, that I come up with
about, but I'm always reallyaware that there might be
talking about that, that youwould leave today and you would
that he didn't ask about X,right? So what is the thing that
(43:48):
think you know our listenersreally need to know about? When,
when thinking about these AfroCaribbean traditions?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (43:55):
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I
offered two times a class onthis topics. And the first time
Witchcraft". And here forbecause the amount of characters
it to "Brujeria and LatinAmerican Cultures". There is
(44:19):
depiction of many of thesereligions, or the
religions in the media, theretends to be this notion that
that there's some sort of evilrelated to these practices. And
witchcraft processes that manywomen were subjected to through
(44:46):
diasporic practices, and howmany times they have been
and tied to ideas ofobscurantism and the devil, and
religions. They are religionsthat center in the well being of
(45:08):
they care about love and andthey have a great wisdom that
to generations through oralstories. And those are
that that hopefully more peoplewould would get interested in.
questions about this religions.
The people that practice themthey just want a better life for
(45:32):
themselves and for their
Chip Gruen (45:36):
All right. Well, I think that's a great place to
thank you so much for being onReligionWise.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (45:42):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you Chip.
Chip Gruen (45:46):
This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced
and Cultural Understanding ofMuhlenberg College. ReligionWise
Christine Flicker. For moreinformation about additional
inquiry about a speakingengagement, please visit our
religionandculture.com There,you'll find our contact
(46:08):
programming and have theopportunity to support the work
subscribe to ReligionWisewherever you get your podcasts.
next time.
Today's episode features Lilianne Lugo Herrera,
Muhlenberg College who is aprofessor of Spanish in the
cultures department. Her work isparticularly interested in Afro
like Oshun and Santeria, though,the details of this belief and
(00:24):
well known in public discourseabout religion, they are
changing demographic patternsand the way that information
example, you might be familiarwith Santeria from a Supreme
Florida. Likewise, you might befamiliar with the confluence or
(00:48):
Virgin Mary in in veneration andpractice of South Florida
Religious and CulturalUnderstanding, which produces
goals, or two main objectives inits mission statement, one of
of this podcast, that is that weare interested in enhancing the
(01:10):
we think about religion inpublic life. The other objective
enhancing religious literacy. Ithink this conversation today
simultaneously. There is a need,particularly as these traditions
might see about them in mediaoutlets, in popular culture, in
(01:36):
diaspora Caribbean populationsbecome larger and larger, I
important to understand thebelief and practice of these
least traditionally been as wellrepresented in our world. We're
somebody like Dr. Lugo Herrerawith us here at Muhlenberg to
(01:59):
to expose our students to areally rich and complicated and
how these religions developedfrom Africa across the Middle
Caribbean and then becamesyncretized and blended with
(02:20):
the beliefs and practices thatwe can see today. The other
work that we should payattention to is that she is also
are translated in literature,and in particular in the
work as a teacher and a scholar,she also is active in the
(02:43):
produced, directed plays thatfocus on or center these
highlighting the stories fromthese traditions. So I hope you
excited to have thisconversation, to learn more
more about her interest in them,and how she came to study this
here. So without further ado,here's our conversation.
(03:10):
for coming on ReligionWise.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (03:12):
Thanks for having me.
Chip Gruen (03:13):
So I did a little introduction in the beginning
heard, and I'm going to give youan opportunity to introduce
second. But I want to start offwith just getting a taste of
a taste of the subject matter,and get you to talk about that,
little bit of the biography. Sothere are a lot of layers to the
(03:37):
have. So I want to sort of startgenerally, and then we can drill
religious communities thatyou're interested in as Afro
is a potentially contestedcategory as well. On the
fairly self explanatory, but themore you look at it, the more
(03:59):
talk about that term, how it'suseful, how it's not useful, how
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (04:03):
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So the
the work that I do is focus onthe Caribbean and its diasporas
prefer to use the term, forinstance, like use the Black
religions, since they involvecountries that are in the
(04:27):
any other country that have alsothis influence from slaves that
slave trade, and they develop anew set of religions, oftentimes
or with Catholic saints, and wehave this sort of Afro,
throughout the Americas. But nowalso, we live in a world and a
(04:53):
practitioners of Santeria, forinstance, and they may live in
world. So we can also talk aboutAfro diasporic religions in a
religions even. But I still useAfro Caribbean to make this
origin and the traditions thatthis religions still have their
(05:19):
to base the geographic regionthat I'm also interested in, so
diasporas.
Chip Gruen (05:27):
So I want to chase down a couple of those strands
But before we get there, I'mgoing to give you your
biography. How did you come tobe interested in these
training inform the way that youstudy these materials? I always
college professors, you know, wehave an arc. We have an origin
(05:51):
not always so innocently, butthrough a complicated history.
about about the arc that led youto where you are today?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (05:57):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I was born in
long ago, 10 years ago, and Idid my my bachelor, I did a BFA
was born in Santa Clara, whichis a city in the middle of the
up, Cuba to practice ofreligion, and Cuba was not, was
(06:22):
accepted. So I grew up in ahouse where there was no
whatsoever. And even if myparents had been baptized as
practice Catholicism at all. Iremember that the first time
after 1998 when Pope John Paulthe second visit Cuba, and it
(06:46):
Christmas was allowed. Andsuddenly there was it was
considered even a holiday. Butwe didn't celebrate it as a
caught a branch of a pine treeand we decorated with some
and that was it. So I didn'tgrew up with with with any sort
(07:08):
background, but then I gotfascinated by an artist. Her
Black Cuban print maker. Shedied in 1999 she was very young,
world that, for me, wasfascinating, but I hadn't heard
(07:29):
Abakua world. So the SociedadSecreta Abakua, the religious,
kind of a Free Masonry society,all male. It's secret. No women
society. And then you have thisartist that is trying to get
(07:50):
of visual representation for aworld that doesn't have one, but
view of an outsider. So she reada lot, this artist, Belkis Ayon,
and the literature that existedat the time, and she created
centered the character, acharacter named Sikan, which in
(08:11):
actually founds the secret. Itwas a fish she was fishing in in
catches this fish called Tanze,that is the representation or
God, and the fish speaks to her,and it gives her the secret. And
Sikan belongs to, they becomemore powerful because they have
(08:36):
the secret to be disseminated.
But according to some versionssecret because she tells a story
to her husband when she'sHer skin is used to make drum,
but the drum doesn't work. Theydrum resonate with the voice of
the secret of Tanze. She'sthey eventually make, managed to
(09:00):
make the drum sound with a skindrums work, right with in this
many of these religions, butall of this, and the position of
this founding character of theany sort of representation, and
(09:22):
women are not allowed in societyme, that world that she created
was fascinating. I startedabout it. And also, at the time
I was in the in the university,someone that it was that came to
be initiated in Santeria, so Iexperience firsthand what their
(09:44):
religion was, and to learn sopassionate about it, but it was
always from a point of view ofwith these representations,
because I was studying theaterBelkis Ayon. So. I was always
interested in seeing thatbetween how something exists in
the world and is practiced bythat it's brought to the stage
(10:09):
and has a second life in a way.
for for some time, I've beendoing other things too, but I've
many works that incorporatereligious Africa, Afro religious
Chip Gruen (10:31):
So I want to sort of drill down. And I'm not sure if
question or if this is sort of abroader cultural question, but
these, some of your firstinteractions with, you know,
through the visit of Pope JohnPaul, and then the celebration
(10:54):
heels of that sort of exposureto this esoteric, right, secret
follow this one down. But I'mthinking about, right, whether
your, you know, developing mindabout these ideas, rather,
between sort of a mainstreamreligious practice and that
(11:19):
the one hand, that that's aninteresting dichotomy to me. On
thing that I want us to thinkabout is all of these strands
you mentioned. So there's theCatholic strand, there's the
comes by way of the slave trade.
I'm not sure if there arecomes together. So can you talk
about the sort of the collisionit be personally right or or
(11:44):
sort of more generically, forpractice?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (11:50):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's so complicated,
about specific deities, and I'mgoing to put an example with the
this is a saint that it haschurches built around her,
(12:12):
representation that pretty muchties with with any other
Mary. But then for Cubans, whenwe see the Virgin of Charity,
which is a goddess from theYoruba tradition. And according
(12:34):
was a great scholar of Caribbeanstudies, he mentioned that in
Charity deity. There's also someelements, especially in the
Taino deities call onoho. So wedefinitely have those different
(12:58):
today, I think it's hard toseparate them in a way, in the
raised as Catholic all theirlife could because the slaves
19th century, as they couldn'tpractice their religions, they
Catholicism that would allowthem to venerate their own gods
(13:25):
images. So Oshun is usuallydepicted as having yellow
so we have this virgin that isalso dressing yellow clothes. So
thing. So for someone that wasthat grew up being just
(13:47):
that other elements of thereligion, but certainly today in
would say there is much morepeople practicing Afro Santeria.
Chip Gruen (14:00):
So as I think, our listeners will recognize that
the belief and practice aroundthis category Afro Caribbean.
know, you mentioning Santeria,and Oshun, and I'm going to
right, that that's a part ofthis world. So one what is the
(14:24):
things? If we go to to Cuba, forexample, that we can imagine
strands or various syncretisms,where these things are mixed
ways. So is this one thing, oris this many things? How do you
how do people who practice thesetraditions think about that
(14:44):
know, in their own neighborhood,in their own context?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (14:46):
Yeah, it really depends on, on how, on
has, right if, if someone grewup being strict Catholic, then
just see the depictions of ofspecific saints in the walls,
light a candle as a way ofoffering, but there, there might
(15:10):
religion, even if they are notcompletely initiated. So we call
have made Ocha. But some otherpeople might have an inclination
saints, on those in thatreligion, even if they are not
people that have faith in, say,Oshun and Chango, all of these
(15:33):
Yoruba and Yemoja Pantheon, theymight go to the church and give
necessarily just a candle. Theymight bring, say, specific
case, our sunflower, that's theflower that she prefers. They
(15:54):
instance, using the depiction ofthe Virgin of Charity, they
offering, like sweets. Forinstance, she likes, she pretty
some anything sweet, honey, etc.
So they might use the Catholicoffering to Oshun. So someone
visiting the island, forare initiators, that are
(16:17):
santeros. They are completelyyear of their religion, and they
go to the Catholic Church.
they complete in theirinitiation. So there is so much
religions that it's very hard tosay, Okay, well, this is, this
just pure Santeria, because theyare very much ingrained.
Chip Gruen (16:38):
Okay, so I'm sort of playing this out in my head,
that, that traveler and I go toHavana, I'm thinking about
church, like I could go to aCatholic Church in Havana, and
(16:58):
the Virgin Mary, I might see litcandles that doesn't that
also see sweets right in thatCatholic Church.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (17:07):
So it really depends on the churches.
churches won't like to see likefood in the in the church, but
flowers.
Chip Gruen (17:16):
Okay. Definitely the flowers.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (17:18):
Yeah, the sun flowers.
Chip Gruen (17:19):
And so any space that is, and I know I'm trying
boundaries here, but if we wereto imagine worship space that
would be domestic space, right?
That would you we have thisin the church. But there might
(17:40):
be domestic space that is morea part of these Afro Caribbean
practice?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (17:47):
Yes. So usually the santeros, they they
a material form. It's what youcall a sopera, like a soup bowl
sayings, the representations aremostly stones. But these stones
(18:10):
so they need to be covered andand it depending on some people
like flowers and sometimesartificial or sometimes natural.
other things, even like curtainsof the color of the saint, etc.
(18:36):
where people keep their saints,those that they received during
and most of the time when theyhave their Saint birthday on the
will do like a great party,inviting their religious
(18:58):
on The celebration. And youwould have great amounts of
and definitely some some otherreligious practices, yeah.
Chip Gruen (19:12):
So to be clear, there's no if you landed in
you know the the church ofOshun, right? Or take me to the
is not, there's not ever like apublic representation of that,
(19:34):
it would be private. The thingsthat are public are are more
Catholic, more officialreligious identity, is that
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (19:44):
So it really depends, because, for
for for Oshun, the Virgin ofCharity in Cuba, is going to be
It's the eastern part of thecountry, and I haven't been
have like a second floor wherethey have all sorts of gifts
(20:12):
Virgin of Charity. I believethat there is, there is even the
and donated to Cuba, and I thinkit's there. But don't quote me
prizes and pictures and manygifts, and in many of those
(20:34):
blurry, right? It's blurry.
What, what kind of gifts are foror for Oshun, you know what I
mean. In Havana, there is theand that that virgin is
syncretized with Yemaya orthe sea. And this church is in
(20:55):
the Bay of Havana. And you willchurch, many people like
fulfilling promises that theyalso the sanctuary of Saint San
Lazaro. Saint Lazarus was wasyou would see as well, people
(21:17):
fulfilling their promises to thesome santeros around the area or
so there's definitely in someinteraction, but in terms of the
offering, sometimes, as I said,working in the church would be
(21:40):
more hesitant to allow for
Chip Gruen (21:44):
Yeah. I mean, the reason I'm chasing this down,
this is because it seems likethere is a dichotomy going on
private, between official andunofficial, between I would
gender distinction here,hierarchy, marginality, right?
(22:06):
of the Catholic, hierarchical,male, empowered, right, sort of
dichotomy, whereas the moreinformal or more, I mean, again,
happening on the other side isthat, is that a decent read?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (22:21):
Yes, absolutely. And I mean, in the
Cuba with public space iscomplicated as well, because of,
did not allow for, I mean, topractice any religion or sort of
so many people that would openlypractice any sort of religion
(22:42):
universities, or they would losetheir jobs, etc. So it wasn't
actually practice that you couldconduct in public. So even if
Afro Cuban religion, theywouldn't be able to dress in
instance, like initiatives inSanteria, they dress in white
(23:05):
couldn't do that, because theneverybody would notice that
religion. But in the last twodecades or so, there's been much
street, because there has beenmore there's, it's actually been
(23:25):
in terms of gender, there'scertainly many tensions in
like the one that I wasmentioned before, the Sociedad
male society. And some other forinstance, in Cuba, the Regla de
level than that would be to be aBabalaw, who's someone that can
(23:50):
for this religion. Women cannotbe initiated in Ifa, but
more Santeria is much morepermissible, so both women and
also tensions inside each of thereligions regarding gender.
Chip Gruen (24:08):
So I want to zoom out a little bit, right? We've
conversation on Cuban practice.
But when we zoom out a littleCaribbean generally, obviously
there's a really complicatedSpanish and Portuguese and
French. And I want to get in athese things, how we make
(24:34):
categories, and we think,past can affect who's interested
and for what reason. So, forpeople who are who study French
and Francophone diasporainterested there, whereas, of
course, in Cuba, the Spanishcan you talk a little bit about
(24:57):
how the category of Afrolinguistic and and the
distinctions made in theaffects, you know, going to
school to study these thingswith silos, right, because of
the differences in linguistic
Lilianne Lugo Herre (25:17):
Absolutely, yeah, it's, it's a question of
definitely the need in order tostudy something fully. Most of
understand the language in whichthis practices are performed.
(25:37):
And so I think that now more andmore people are even producing
the US, and I can mention acouple of examples, but for a
studies existed only in thelanguage of each specific area,
(25:59):
scholarship around Afro Cubanreligions, was produced in
scholar in that area, LydiaCabrera. She came to the US
donated all her papers to, forinstance, University of Miami,
They have their collectionthere, and now her work has been
(26:24):
work "El Monte". It's now fullyavailable in English, but for
So there's definitely that lack.
So people that wanted to study,and talk to the people there in
Spanish as well, in terms ofthe US. I learned French, for
instance, but I did not learnsomething that has limited my
(26:48):
own understanding of Vodou. IVodou, so I am much more versed
in the Hispanic area that and ininstance, yeah, I but, but
again, there are some scholarstransdisciplinary and across
(27:13):
languages to to these practices.
Portuguese, so there'sdefinitely a crossings of
hopefully will be moreaccessible.
Chip Gruen (27:30):
Another one of those kind of 20,000 foot questions
African of the Afro Caribbean, Ithink, I mean, I'm no, no
even from an outsider'sperspective, looking, you know,
thinking about culturalproductions and so forth, that
(27:51):
ethnicity just seem, I mean,those categories are defined
encounter those categories, youknow, in the in the States. Can
that? And is that a, you know,so even hearing you talk about,
like, if you look at a snapshotof a neighborhood in Cuba, like
(28:12):
a great diversity. Can you helpus understand the way that about
I mean, you can take Cuba as anexample and how that might be
what we might be used to in theUnited States.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (28:25):
Yeah, it's a huge difference in Cuba
appearance. So people that lookwhite, they would be defined as
grandparents are were Black,because it's very much about
(28:50):
skin tone, skin, skin tone. Andthere, there is such a such a
in this in the Cuban society.
And to be mulatto or mixed race,in Cuba are, right there is
there's so much, yeah, so muchmixture of the white and the
(29:17):
Black, that and I don't see thathere in the US, there's this
difference of ethnicity andCuban, but here in the US, I'm a
Latino. So there's that, there'sare in terms of race in a
(29:39):
culture and what you are and howrace and ethnicity in a do in a
different country, that is verygoing back to the religions, one
thing that I do love about this,diasporic religionis that once
you get into one of thesedoesn't matter. You are part of
(30:06):
the clan, and of course, thea white person, doing, you know,
brujeria, witchcraft and as adoesn't mean that you are not
accepted into that clan. AndUS, Aiesha Beliso-De Jesus, that
actually she argues thatthrough initiation,
(30:33):
practitioners adopt a BlackThey are not impersonating a
race. They are not Black, right?
that Black epistemology. And Ithink that's really interesting
these religions create their ownsort of acceptance and community
(30:59):
Black or being white or beingmulatto.
Chip Gruen (31:02):
So I want to go back to something else that you
because you come to this as youhad have described, through the
productions. So I say othercultural productions, because
something that people do, right?
It's a cultural production, butthings that people do, and so
these things bump up against onemean, you've mentioned a little
(31:25):
bit about the theater here, butabout your work and
representation of thesemaybe, maybe even both
representation andgot to think that that's a
that's a big part of it as well.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (31:45):
Yeah, the work that I analyze is usually
that is decent, and I prefer tofocus on that there are many,
misrepresentation of all sortsof Afro diasporic religions in
try to analyze the sort ofrepresentation that allow us not
(32:11):
practice, but also to thinkthrough societal, societal
diversity and many differentissues, and also that many of
more visibility towards wideraudiences for these practices,
(32:31):
playwrights that I studied, andCuban playwrights, Eugenio
Fernandez Santana, they try tobring the myths that the origin
and tell stories through them,which is something that we have
Greek myths. And they are nowthese pillars of society. But
(32:58):
come from the oral tradition ofthese religions that people do
really interesting, and they cantell us a lot about human
people, as people in a society,in a couple and and, and they
strategies of telling this, themyths, Black diasporic religions
(33:23):
has been present in dance intheater, and they have great
emotional states. And also,there's so much in the rhythm of
(33:46):
There's also the anotherreligious trend that I didn't
which is practiced in theHispanic Caribbean and Cuba. And
connect us to the dead, and andthat it's very powerful too,
think through the invisible,right, or through what it's
(34:11):
we interact with this, withpresences that we that were with
anymore, where they went, whathappened with that spirituality
So in the theater, we also getto to process our grief in some
ways of thinking through throughpain and death.
Chip Gruen (34:36):
So when we're thinking about these playwrights
intended audience for theseworks? Is it meant to translate
linguistically, but translatethese experiences, these, this,
outside audience, or is itintended to be a mirror to the
(34:57):
recognize? And it's sort ofmaking something, you know,
the raw material of theirtraditions that they're proud
that affects the productiongreatly, thinking about, you
Lilianne Lugo Herre (35:14):
Absolutely, and it really depends. I am
article on three playwrightsthat depict in different ways
their works. And one productionwas the playwright is called
(35:34):
is called "Mare Nostrum", "OurSea" though it was translated as
years ago here in the US, um.
And in that play, for instance,the middle of the sea. They are
trying to escape a country thatmight be Cuba, and they might be
(35:55):
trying to get to the US. Butthat could be relatable to many
people, and there are many.
Virgin appears and talks tothem. And some people that know
Charity and Oshun, they willrecognize some signposts there
(36:21):
recognized. But some otherpeople might watch this
these are three women that arelost in the sea and they are
to return to go ahead, and howto survive with the little food
decision of what to do, there'sanother play that I studied by
(36:43):
maker here in the US of Cubanorigin. But she has, she has
of her life, CarmelitaTropicana, that's her stage
which we have an apparition ofthe Virgin that is actually
language. So it's, it's, it'sdoing, it's, it's playful, it's
(37:07):
It's not going to be interpretedas only one saying from one
interpreted as a powerfulreligious personification of
intervening in that specificmoment of the action. So and
beauty of theater, that onething can be many things for
(37:31):
the and the way that theplaywrights, directors, actors
make a point about religionitself, but to use religion as
the lives of the characters.
Chip Gruen (37:45):
So we've been talking a little bit about, you
diaspora communities in the US.
I mean, obviously the Cubanthe Cuban American community,
excuse me, in South Florida isone, and that's not the only
place. And I'm thinking aboutof religious diversity and how
(38:08):
these Afro Caribbean religiousexample, if people know of
Santeria at all, they might knowin a Hialeah, Florida, for
example, or I don't know, Ihow do you see the integration
(38:29):
of this rich tapestry ofmore and more visible in
American life, how do you seedifferent than it was 10 years
ago? Where do you see it going?
(38:50):
you know, how do you see thesetraditions sort of being
a part of the larger religiouslife of the country?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (39:01):
That's a really interesting question. I
I've been living here in theNortheast for my second year. So
know about the US yet. And Ithink that even though there is,
diversity and more more publicconversation about diversity. At
(39:27):
the last years, there's also abig push back towards
ideas of or a more polarizedview about what is right and
religions, they have ideas ofwhat is right or is wrong that
(39:51):
black and white. They are theythere are many shades in there.
am not sure that. That more andmore people will understand what
there is much more publicconversation about what these
(40:15):
practicants look like and what'swhat's their worldview, there's
these things, these topics.
Yeah, but, but, and I wanted toattempts to give more visibility
to to these religions and todiversity do exist already, even
(40:38):
if it's not entirely visiblecertain areas of the political
discourse. And this is a bookTsang. It's called, "Spirited
Diasporas, Personal NarrativesAfro-Atlantic Religions". And it
has first person testimonies ofworld, but here in the US, I was
(41:06):
very surprised to know aboutin Boston and Regla de Ocha
Santeria communities in Chicago,in the US, and many of the
people that do these testimoniesgeographical region. Say
they're, they have, do not haveThey are Americans, or they are
(41:31):
British, or, you know, they're,the world that do not have a
personal ethnical or origin tothey are attracted to them
because of their because ofterms of gender and sexuality
and how many of these religionsbeing that it's not tied to this
(41:55):
heteronormative paradigm oflong, long answer, short, I do
think there is, there is hopethese religions. And I think
this, many of these communitiestime, we need, we need to do
more.
Chip Gruen (42:16):
Yeah, so I'm something that you and I in the
going to do a little commercialhere, because we do on campus.
and we do on campus theWorldViews program, which
about their own religiousexperiences, to to enhance
And if you're out there andyou're within shouting distance
(42:38):
want to come and talk aboutSanteria or or Oshun, or any of
always looking for a Rastafarianto come on, or somebody from
whatever. I absolutely agree,like this is something that
it's hard for somebody like meto tap into those communities
(43:01):
know, trusting enough right tohave to have their worldview
but I think it's, it's good foreverybody, it's good for the
better level of acceptance. Andit's and it's good for us,
understand our world better so,so reach out to us at our at our
religionandculture.com and findthe information where you can
(43:25):
get you on WorldViews. So thequestion I always like to finish
try to be really aware of my ownmyopia, that I come up with
about, but I'm always reallyaware that there might be
talking about that, that youwould leave today and you would
that he didn't ask about X,right? So what is the thing that
(43:48):
think you know our listenersreally need to know about? When,
when thinking about these AfroCaribbean traditions?
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (43:55):
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I
offered two times a class onthis topics. And the first time
Witchcraft". And here forbecause the amount of characters
it to "Brujeria and LatinAmerican Cultures". There is
(44:19):
depiction of many of thesereligions, or the
religions in the media, theretends to be this notion that
that there's some sort of evilrelated to these practices. And
witchcraft processes that manywomen were subjected to through
(44:46):
diasporic practices, and howmany times they have been
and tied to ideas ofobscurantism and the devil, and
religions. They are religionsthat center in the well being of
(45:08):
they care about love and andthey have a great wisdom that
to generations through oralstories. And those are
that that hopefully more peoplewould would get interested in.
questions about this religions.
The people that practice themthey just want a better life for
(45:32):
themselves and for their
Chip Gruen (45:36):
All right. Well, I think that's a great place to
thank you so much for being onReligionWise.
Lilianne Lugo Herrera (45:42):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you Chip.
Chip Gruen (45:46):
This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced
and Cultural Understanding ofMuhlenberg College. ReligionWise
Christine Flicker. For moreinformation about additional
inquiry about a speakingengagement, please visit our
religionandculture.com There,you'll find our contact
(46:08):
programming and have theopportunity to support the work
subscribe to ReligionWisewherever you get your podcasts.
next time.
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