October 20, 2021 • 41 mins
This episode of ReligionWise features a conversation with Simran Jeet Singh, a highly sought out speaker on diversity, equity, inclusion, justice and anti-racism. His thought leadership extends across corporate, university and government settings, and his work has been featured in various outlets including NPR, CNN, BBC, Time, The Washington Post and The New York Times. Simran is especially passionate about creating more cohesion, equity, and joy for all stakeholders.
The conversation includes his experiences growing up a Sikh in South Texas, his role as an activist working for change and for a more just and more equitable society, and his role as a scholar whose job is to describe and help other people understand the belief and practice of religious communities.
Show Notes
- Simran Jeet Singh (https://www.simranjeetsingh.org/)
- Fauja Singh Keeps Going: The True Story of the Oldest Person to Ever Run a Marathon (https://www.simranjeetsingh.org/fauja)
- Religion News Service: Articles of Faith (https://religionnews.com/category/opinion/columns/simran-jeet-singh/)
- The Light We Give: The Power of Sikh Wisdom to Transform Your Life (Riverhead/Penguin Random House, 2022)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chip Gruen (00:09):
Welcome to ReligionWise, the podcast where
we feature educators,researchers and other
professionals discussing topicson religion and their relevance
to the public conversation. Myname is Chip Gruen. I'm the
Director of the Institute forReligious and Cultural
Understanding at MuhlenbergCollege, and I will be the host
for this podcast.
(00:30):
Today's episode of ReligionWisefeatures my conversation with
Simran Jeet Singh. Simran is ahighly sought out speaker on
diversity, equity, inclusion,justice and anti-racism. His
thought leadership extendsacross corporate, university and
government settings, and hiswork has been featured in
various outlets including NPR,CNN, BBC, Time, The Washington
Post and The New York Times.
Simran is especially passionateabout creating more cohesion,
(00:52):
equity, and joy for allstakeholders. I'm pleased to say
that Dr. Singh will also givethe Wallenberg Tribute lecture
on November 7th, on the campusof Muhlenberg College. You can
get more details about thatevent at religionandculture.com.
In our conversation, we talkabout his experiences of growing
up a Sikh in South Texas, hisrole as an activist who is
(01:13):
actively working for change andworking for a more just and more
equitable society, as well ashis role as a scholar whose job
is to describe and help otherpeople understand the belief and
practice of religiouscommunities. It's my pleasure to
welcome Dr. Singh toReligionWise.
(01:36):
So first, I just wanted to thankyou very much for agreeing to
participate in, in a number ofactivities at Muhlenberg this
semester, the Wallenberg Lectureand this podcast, we're super
happy to have you included inthe program.
Simran Jeet Singh (01:49):
Of course, no it's my pleasure, I'm looking
forward to it.
Chip Gruen (01:52):
I'm interested, you know, that obviously, your your
PhD is from one of the bestuniversities in the world,
you're trained in religiousstudies. And you do teach, but
you've really chosen a careerpath that is more about public
engagement. And I'm interestedin that and how you see the
relationship between that publicengagement and scholarship and
(02:15):
also between sort of personalidentity and sometimes the
distance that comes withacademic training.
Simran Jeet Singh (02:21):
Yeah, it's a great question. And actually, I
couldn't really talk about myacademic identity, without
talking about my personalidentity, that for me, they,
they come very close together.
And that's very much because of,of my own experience in this
world, and how I've, how I'vegrown up, and how I've
experienced racism, and, andreally, what motivated me to
(02:43):
even get into academic study inthe first place is, is very much
tied to to those experiences,you know, I was a senior in high
school when the terroristattacks of 9/11 happened. And
after those attacks, my lifechanged drastically in terms of
the intensity of the hate, thatI experienced as a Sikh, and
(03:06):
that my community experienced.
And that's what really propelledme onto the path of academic
study. I wanted to know what washappening, why it was happening,
and how I could fix it. And allthree of those questions were
really important to me. Andwhile the academic study of
religion helped me answer thefirst two, the the what and the
(03:28):
why it didn't really prepare mesufficiently to think about how
to fix it, how to support mycommunities, how to ensure our
survival, and our safety and ourcomfort in this country. And so
that's where I really startedlearning about justice
organizations efforts, publicengagement, and made that a
(03:49):
critical part of my work in thisworld.
Chip Gruen (03:52):
So there are a couple things I'd like to follow
up on I mean, one you talkedabout, you know, your life
changing dramatically in 2001and though obviously, Sikh
culture and religious heritageis deeply tied to India, you
grew up in South Texas. So canyou talk a little bit about your
your upbringing and about, aboutgrowing up as a Sikh in South
(04:15):
Texas? I mean, maybe pre 2001and then we can talk about the
changes?
Simran Jeet Singh (04:19):
Yes, sure. So my parents are both from they're
both Punjabi Sikhs bybackground. My my father grew up
in outside of Punjab, in UttarPradesh in a different state in
India, and my mother also grewup in a state outside of Punjab
called Haryana. So, so they're,they're sort of diasporic in a
(04:39):
sense. But still within India,my my grandparents on both sides
lived in Western Punjab, whichbefore the split in 1947, that
was Pakistan. And so they theymoved in that mass migration,
which is one of the largest inhuman history. They moved amid
(05:00):
that violence and survived butessentially landed in India with
nothing. And then my parentsagain left India and moved to
the US with essentially nothingand so it's it's kind of a story
of our family's life and formany Sikhs, this this experience
of double belonging or maybeeven more like not belonging
(05:24):
anywhere. And that that feltreally true for me growing up in
Texas right I was I was born andraised there, I have three
brothers, we're all really closein age, five and a half years
from top to bottom. So my mypoor mom, having having to raise
four rambunctious, mischievousboys in the middle of, in the
(05:46):
middle of Texas where we grewup, and, and on the one hand,
our lives felt very normal. Youknow, we had friends and
teammates, and classmates andteachers who we who we loved,
and who we hung out with, andwho we considered close friends
and still do. But at the sametime, we were under no illusion
that we actually fit inanywhere. We stood out
(06:08):
everywhere we went, peoplealways commented on our turbans,
usually not maliciously, theywould just ask, you know, what's
that about? What's on your head?
Why do you wear that? And, youknow, we learn to answer that.
Sometimes it would be a littlebit more malicious, a little bit
uglier, you know, we would getinto arguments and fights
sometimes depending on howthings played out. So it's not
(06:31):
like it was this, you know,idyllic, harmonious upbringing
that there were some challengestoo. But, you know, as part of
that, I would say, we had tolearn from a really young age,
because of the way we stood outwhere we were growing up. And
because people were constantlyasking us questions about who we
were including our friends andour classmates, we had to
(06:54):
understand our heritage, and ourparents took a lot of care, to
communicate and transmit ourtraditions to us, we grew up
speaking only Punjabi, until westarted daycare, which is
something that I've done with myown daughters now so that they
(07:14):
can retain the language. We hadtons of books at home, we would
learn to read and write at home,we learned musical traditions at
home. So it was it was anisolated upbringing in that
sense, where it's not like wehad other Sikhs around us who we
could learn with in a Sundayschool type of setting. But that
(07:36):
is, you know, a lot of that is atestament to my parents, that we
were able to feel connected withthis tradition that was very
much not part of the of the ofthe South Texas fabric. And it
was only because of their effortat home.
Chip Gruen (07:55):
So when they moved to South Texas, it wasn't that
they were moving into adiasporic Sikh community that
was already there. It was yourfamily and that was it.
Simran Jeet Singh (08:04):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, there were a
handful of other Punjabi's, someSikhs, a few South Asians, you
know, very, very, I mean, verymuch the makeup of South Texas
at the time was Hispanic, Black,and White, I mean, that that's
what my school's makeup looklike. That's what our
neighborhood looked like. That'swhat my friends circle look
like. That's my soccer teamslook like. So that was very much
(08:27):
the experience. Now it's changeda bit. But it really wasn't a
place. And you know, you sort ofsee this in immigration
patterns, you know, you you seecommunities come and create
pockets, where they sort of livetogether in ethnic enclaves and
find comfort that way. And then,as time goes on, people start
venturing out. And so my fatherwas one of those adventurers who
(08:52):
thought South Texas was a goodplace for him and a good place
for a Sikh family. And in manyways, I think he was right, I
see the wisdom in his decisionthere. And like any, like any
decision there, there are prosand cons. And one of the one of
the cons, I think, was that wedidn't really have a strong
(09:12):
community, and we didn't reallyhave people around us who we
felt like could understand ourexperiences growing up, you
know, the kinds of challengesthat I faced, it felt really
isolating. But at the same time,I think there was a lot of
growth and strength that camethrough learning how to navigate
these challenges. And I'mgrateful for all of that.
Chip Gruen (09:34):
So you also mentioned, you know, you're a
senior in high school and in2001, that your situation
changes because of the September11 terrorist attacks. And one of
the I mean, one of theinteresting things about this,
one of the things that I want topush on a little bit, is how it
is on the one hand American,sort of just sort of the public
(09:58):
conversation about religiousdiversity in America is so
impoverished that you know thatthat the populace sees a Sikh
male in particular, andmisidentifies religious
tradition, right? That there'sthis confusion about just
because of the lack of literacyaround Sikhs and people of the
(10:19):
Muslim faith on the one hand,but on the other hand, I've also
seen, you know, Sikh commentaryon this saying, it's on the one
hand, we want to say, no, no,that's not us. But on the other
hand, not wanting to throwanother minority group, you
know, to the wolves, right, bysaying, you know, go ahead, hate
(10:39):
them don't hate us, right, thatthere's something really
difficult about this situation,it seems to me, someone from
your community identity would,is put in?
Simran Jeet Singh (10:49):
Yeah, it's an incredibly difficult situation.
I mean, I, one of the thingsthat I've learned is that in
situations of racism or otherforms of oppression, there's
there's no perfect answer. Youknow, the, the conditions are
set up for people to loseregardless. And so it's, it's
(11:12):
often a matter of what's theworst? What's the worst loss and
trying to avoid that and findingout what's, what's the best loss
and aiming for that. And soit's, it's really difficult. And
I would say, you know, evenwithin the Sikh community,
there's no consensus in terms ofthe best way to handle a
question like this. But one ofthe things that I observed, you
(11:33):
know, as a high school student,after 9/11, was Sikh
communities. You know, we wouldget on conference calls in the
evenings immediately after 9/11,led by community leaders all
over the country. And on thesecalls, people would share their
reports on the hate attacks thatwere happening in their
communities, what they weredoing about it, and eventually
we would get to this question,Well, what do we do
(11:55):
collectively? What's ourmessaging? What's our plan? And
this is where that conversationreally came to a head where you
would I mean, I would hearpeople who I admired and
respected, give really strongarguments for different
approaches. And they all makesense, right? They all have
their merit. The place whereI've landed personally, over
time, is essentially a threepart approach that says,
(12:20):
hey, I'm not Muslim, I'm a Sikh.
And even if you were, even if Iwasn't Muslim, you know, your
bigotry is wrong. And soessentially, what what that
method does, and I use that sortof three part structure to
triangulate all of my responses,and they differ in different
contexts, depending on whatfeels appropriate. But
(12:42):
essentially, in the first two,I'm trying to educate somebody
and say, let me give you acouple of facts. And so it's,
it's super simple, but as you'resaying, and as you've said,
cultural and religious literacyis so impoverished in this
country, that those basic factsthat you would expect, or want
somebody to know, like, thoseactually do work. So there is
(13:03):
some important thing there butbut to leave it there, and this
is what we were finding in thoseearly moments after 9/11. To
leave it at those two factualstatements and say, I'm not
Muslim, I'm a Sikh is toimplicitly send the message,
that you got the wrong person,go get there, go get the quote,
unquote, right person. And that,while it wasn't our intention,
(13:26):
and it wasn't my intention, thatwas the impact. And we recognize
that pretty quickly. And sothat's, that's not within our
value system. And so then thequestion becomes, what do you
do? How do you how do youactually live into your values?
And, you know, to put it intopractical terms, I would say the
(13:48):
easiest response is the firstone, right? Like, I'm not
Muslim, I'm a s Sikh, it'sfactually true, and it creates
more safety for you immediately.
But I don't think it createsmore safety in the long run,
because it doesn't actuallyaddress hate at its core. And so
there's, there's a realstrategic principle here, which
(14:12):
is to say, if you really want tocreate safety for your
communities, then you have toaddress the problem rather than
pushing it aside or deflectingit to another group. And so
that's one. And then the otheranimating principle for me here
is around the ethical response,what's the right thing to do?
And you know, a lot of times in,in in difficult situations, and
(14:35):
especially when your family'ssafety is involved. Doing the
right thing isn't always asimportant as doing the safest
thing. But in this case, when wehave a chance to help shape the
narrative. To me, I thinkfocusing on what is ethical from
the perspective of the traditionis really important, and so I
(14:56):
had to dig a little bit deeperand think about, what does our
tradition teach us aboutstanding up for others? And one
of the things that's very clearto me and we learn this as kids,
you know, all Sikh kids learnthis early is the teaching that
it is our responsibility asSikhs, to stand up for the
(15:18):
rights of others, no matter whatconsequences that may have for
us. And one of the very, I mean,that's, that's a teaching that
we learned early and one of theways that comes through, is in
this really popular, what wecall a Sakhi. An account of the
ninth gurus' life, Guru TeghBahadur who was approached by
(15:42):
Kashmiri Brahmins who are beingpersecuted under Aurangzeb's
rule. And they come to Guru TeghBahadur and they say, hey, we
know you're not of the samereligion as us, we know that
you're not being persecuted. Butwe need help. And we know that
you are somebody who says thatyou're here to help. And Guru
(16:03):
Tegh Bahadur stands by that, andalthough his community wasn't
being troubled, by by thepersecution of Aurangzeb's
Empire, Guru Tegh Bahadur goesto Delhi, and he's arrested. And
he's tortured. And he's executedfor doing that. And to me, it is
the ultimate example of whatsolidarity looks like what ally
(16:26):
ship looks like, like in thiscountry, we talk about these
ideas, day in and day out. Butwe don't really see it in action
in ways where people areactually taking and making
sacrifices, showing up forpeople and taking risk in order
to ensure their safety. And soto me, when when I reflected on
(16:48):
that particular account, it feltreally clear that the right
thing to do, and the strategicthing to do was to ensure that
we weren't throwing anothercommunity under the bus.
Chip Gruen (17:00):
So connected to that, I've been looking one of
the outlets that you write foris Religion, News Service, you
have the Articles of Faith isthe the name of the column that
you write. And the topics thatyou deal with are relatively far
ranging right, between questionsabout various religious
minorities, for example, both inthe US and abroad. And I
(17:24):
wondered if you could justaddress for a minute, what you
what you see your beat as,right, what is the through line?
What is the thing that holdstogether your work? You know,
when you're when you're writingand thinking about these types
of issues?
Simran Jeet Singh (17:38):
Yeah, it's a it's a great question. And I
think I think, you know, I'llexplain first how I got to it.
And then and then talk about thethrough line, but but I think
the how is very much myexperience of being on the
margins in this country, and,and really having to constantly
find a way to feel like my voiceand our community's voices being
(18:00):
heard. And that experience, Imean, it shows up over and over
again, as a theme, right? So Ihave a children's book that just
came out. And when I was a kid,and even when I was writing this
book now, people had beensaying, well, there's no market
for that, those stories aren'trelatable, no one has interest
in people like you essentially,what was the message. And that's
(18:22):
happened, you know, in alldifferent contexts. When I, when
I started my graduate studies,and I got to Harvard Divinity
School, you know, it's it's themost resourced university in the
world. And I get there, and theysay, well, we don't really do
Sikhism, but you can study Islamand Hinduism instead, and then
figure it out from there. And soI did, and that's kind of what
(18:42):
I've had to do. But that's thestory, not just of me, but also
so many people on the margins.
And I think it's that experienceof knowing what it's what it
feels like to be left out andoverlooked. That's really
animated my passion for helpingvarious communities be seen. And
so within my beat, the throughline really feels like bringing
(19:07):
visibility to underrepresentedstories to marginalized groups.
And to do so with the angle ofjustice, right? I'm not just
interested in describing whatpeople's experiences are like, I
also want people to think aboutwhat does equity look like for
them? What does fairness looklike for them? Where did they
want to be? And where do we wantthem to be? And essentially,
(19:30):
where do we all want to be?
Right? That to me is the throughline that shows up in different
ways, because we have so muchdiversity in this world, and we
have a diversity of problemstoo. And so trying to sort of
lift up those problems so thatwe are able to better see them,
(19:50):
and then also to startindicating, or at least pointing
towards opportunities forgrowth. And I think that to me,
Feels like. I mean, I'll justsay one more thing about that
this is what I do in my writing.
But it's you know, I teach rightnow I'm teaching a course on
global Buddhist histories. I'vetaught Islamic studies before.
I've taught Hinduism I've taughtSikhism. So in many ways, it's
(20:13):
almost like, there's thisfeeling that I have that
although I have my ownparticular identity and
convictions as a Sikh, myinterest is not limited to that.
It's very much oriented aroundthis idea that none of us will
have freedom until all of us hasfreedom. And that's and that's a
(20:35):
very progressive liberal value.
But it's also something that'srooted in my in my faith as
well.
Chip Gruen (20:42):
So the picture book you mentioned is Fauja Singh
Keeps Going.
Simran Jeet Singh (20:47):
That's right.
Yeah.
Chip Gruen (20:48):
The True Story of the Oldest Person to Ever Run a
Marathon. And I'll just have,you know, my wife is actually
elementary school teacher. Andas soon as I am done with this,
this is going right into herinto her library. So there's
another group of people who willbe exposed to these lessons. And
and I'll just say, I wouldencourage people to pick this up
whether you have little kids inyour life or not, because it's
(21:11):
not only dealing with the ideaof religious and cultural
minority and being on theoutside, but it also considers
disability and other types ofways that people are
marginalized, you know, in ourworld, I think it's super
edifying. And and I reallyenjoyed looking at that. And I
think you've addressed thisalready, but the children's
(21:32):
book, right, so this has to dowith representation. I mean, how
much did you write this foryoung Sikh kids who don't see
themselves in books? And howmuch did you write this for
everybody else who don't seeSikhs in books?
Simran Jeet Singh (21:45):
Oh, it's such, it's such a good question.
Because I think when I startedwriting, the answer was one
thing. And then that at the endof it, it was something else.
And what I mean by that is, youknow, growing up as a Sikh in
Texas, not seeing Sikhs in anysort of media, and real and
really wishing my friends couldjust see it so that they would
see us as more normal. It was mydream from childhood, that I
(22:10):
would that I would start writingchildren's books, right, so so
that, to me, was very much this.
This is something for the kidsin my community. And for my
younger self, too. But as Istarted writing it, so I'll say
I made that promise to myself,when I was a kid, kind of forgot
about it. I mean, it was alwaysin the back of my mind. But then
(22:33):
when my older daughter was justabout to be born, that memory,
that commitment took took a lifeof its own again. And so that's
when I really started writing.
But at first, I was just writingstories about Sikhs, right?
Like, it took me a while to landon this story. And I think what
I was struggling with was, Ivery much wanted a story in
(22:57):
which kids of my community couldsee themselves. But I also
started to recognize thatthrough my work in racial
justice circles, especially myvision of what I wanted to do in
this world had changed a bit.
And it wasn't just about liftingup my community was also about
opening up doors, or at leastwindows as we talk about them in
(23:17):
the in the children's bookworld. Windows through which
people could see who we are. Andyou know, in the children's
world, you talk about windowsand mirrors, children's books
are windows and mirrors we canthink about all education as
windows and mirrors right? Inour conversations around
representation. Part of thevalue is to say, you can see
(23:38):
yourself and imagine yourself asa hero. And that's really
important to me, as a father, asI'm looking at my two girls, who
watched me be racially profiledwhen I walked through airport
security, and they're gettingthese messages that, and I know
this is going to happen, they'llbe ashamed and embarrassed that
their dad wears a turban andlooks different. And so to have
some sense of pride, somepositive messaging around that
(24:03):
feels really important to me asa parent, but also the kids in
my daughter's class are notSikh. And they're not even South
Asian, most of them. And so whatdoes it mean for them to get a
positive message through awindow, you know, using this
book, I mean, that, to me, hasbecome equally important. And so
initially, while it was it wasvery much a mirror proposition.
(24:25):
Over time, it's become a balanceof both things. And I see equal
value in both because, you know,as much as as much as it's about
instilling pride in our own kidsand making them feel proud of
who they are. It's also aboutensuring that others around us
are recognizing not just thechallenges that we endure, but
(24:46):
also our underlying humanity.
And I think I think that'ssomething that we don't do
enough with our young kids andit's become increasingly
important for me.
Chip Gruen (24:57):
So one of the pieces of vocabulary in other writing
that you do, that I wanted tojust kind of highlight and drill
down on a little bit is thecharacteristic or the habit of
mind of empathy, and empathytowards others and you use that
a fair amount. What, whatexactly do you mean by that? And
(25:20):
how do you think it'sparticularly important to sort
of the contemporary discoursearound religious diversity,
cultural diversity, racialdiversity, you know, all the
sort of issues that we face inour world?
Simran Jeet Singh (25:33):
Yeah, I appreciate that question a ton
because, you know, it's not,it's not often something that
comes up in conversations withacademics, especially, you know,
we're, we're trained to believe,and I believe this growing up
too, and I still think there'ssome truth to it, but it's not
the entire truth. We're trainedto believe that knowledge is our
(25:55):
salvation, that if we know aboutone another, then we'll be
kinder to one another. And themore we know, the better off we
are, which, to some extent istrue. But it's also true that we
are the most knowledgeablecivilization in human history,
(26:15):
that we have more access toinformation than any other group
of people at any other time inthe world. And look at where we
are, right? Like, we're not,we're not I wouldn't say we're
actually at the peak of humancivilization. I mean, in many
ways, it feels like we'reregressing. And so it can't be
(26:37):
that knowledge is going to solvethe kinds of problems that we
have today. It is it is ourinability to connect with one
another, to see one another totreat each other with dignity.
That really creates a lot of ourproblems, right? Like one of the
major discussions we're havingin our country right now is
around supremacy, differentkinds of supremacy, right? So
(26:57):
you can call it white supremacy,you can look at gender
supremacy, you can look atnationalistic supremacy, I mean,
all of them require this logicthat make us see ourselves as
superior and other people asinferior. And the only way you
can do that is if you dehumanizepeople and say they are less
than or subhuman. And and thatis I mean, that is that is the
(27:22):
underlying problem of so much ofour pain today. So if that's the
problem, then what's theantidote? Maybe there was a time
when I believe that knowledgewas the antidote. And that that
would correct all of theseissues. But now as I look
around, that doesn't seem to bethe case, there has to be
something else. And so to me,it's really become almost so
(27:46):
clear that it's obvious. And Ithink once we think about it, it
makes sense that ifdehumanization is the problem
than learning how to humanizeone another, learning how to see
the humanity in one another, toconnect, to feel with one
another, and for one another, Ithink that's the solution. And
so that's, that's what I mean byempathy. And it's why I've
(28:09):
started to make so much effortaround, around building that
because I think it's somethingwe desperately need in our world
today.
Chip Gruen (28:17):
Yeah, so the mission statement for the Institute for
Religious and CulturalUnderstanding, I wonder if it
gets at this because we have twogoals. One, I think is that
information piece that theliteracy piece, right, people
need to know, you know, who thepeople in their neighborhood
are, right, who the people theysee on the street. The other
part, and maybe it is sort of myacademic-ness sort of coming
(28:40):
out. But I talk about modelingas sophisticated discourse,
modeling conversation. And and Iguess I would hope that what is
being modeled there is, youknow, is humanizing and
imagining somebody, you know,everybody else to have, you
know, their own value aside fromyou, or their utility to you.
(29:01):
That's at least my hope.
Simran Jeet Singh (29:02):
Yeah. And I think I think that makes good
sense. I think, especially in acontext where we don't have
models for disagreement, anddifferent opinions in ways that
allows for those differences toexist, but also for our humanity
to remain intact. And so yeah,absolutely. I think I think
(29:24):
modeling is a critical componentof how we can build up empathy.
And really, I think showstudents, community members,
other stakeholders, like thereis a way to do this. And I think
I think it's a really importantfirst step that educators can
consider. I mean, it's somethingwe know how to do. It's
something we've been trained todo. But it's not something we
(29:46):
necessarily do publicly. Andit's not something we do around
them or difficult conversationsthat are on people's minds. And
so creating spaces for that,where people can see, oh, I
understand not just that this ispossible, but I can I can learn
some techniques and some skillsaround having these kinds of
(30:07):
conversations and stayingconnected to people. I think
that's critically important. SoI yeah, I'm right on the same
page with you there.
Chip Gruen (30:14):
You also have a forthcoming book that is not a
children's book, a forthcomingbook, The Light We Give: The
Power of Sikh Wisdom toTransform Your Life. And from my
admittedly limited interactionwith the Sikh community, and I'm
not a scholar of Sikhism, I'm ascholar of Ancient Christianity,
primarily. But from my limitedexposure, it seems like there
(30:37):
are a lot of places where thingsthat we might call civic
engagement or socialresponsibility are dealt with
head on, in Sikh tradition, atleast from from what I've seen
about the pre publication thingsabout this book that seems to be
what you're what you'reinterested in, what you're going
going for, is that sound aboutright?
Simran Jeet Singh (30:56):
Yeah, it's, it's part of my hope of this
book, that it's not just anintroduction to Sikhism, which
which it also is, right, like,I'm hoping that people will
learn about a faith, you know,the world's fifth largest that
they haven't yet encountered,probably. And so it is
introductory in that way. But tome, the value of religion and
(31:20):
Sikhism in particular is notlimited to its history. And to
its influence, it's also whatare and and this is why I value
it so much, and why I cherishit, there are some real gems
that can help make our livesbetter. And there are some
people who have lived in thisworld of various traditions who
(31:40):
have figured out things that weare having a very difficult
thing figuring out. And so youknow, some of these questions
that I've struggled with in myown life, some of which have to
do with the kinds of racism I'veexperienced, and learning how to
deal with that, right? Like, howdo you? How do you love someone
who hates you? How do yourespond to hate with love? but
(32:03):
also things that are, you know,more, I would say, everyday
experiences too. Including, youknow, what does it look like to
see someone around you, as partof yourself? What does it look
like to deal with, with the theego and the greed and those
(32:27):
kinds of challenges that come inlife? And I don't, I don't think
I don't see many young people,or people in our world
generally, finding good answersto those questions. I feel like
I've found good answers throughmy tradition. And so it's, it's
just a matter of, for me takingthose ideas and, and trying to
(32:49):
share them with the worldbecause I think it could make
people's lives better and makeour society better.
Chip Gruen (32:56):
So it occurs to me that that some of the language
that you use, describing yourwork around justice, and equity,
and so forth, that thatconversation, the way that we
have that conversation haschanged a little bit over the
past five to 10 years, and maybeeven more recently than that,
(33:17):
you know, that the language ofallyship, for example, is not
something when I was in highschool, right, or college or
even graduate school was wasvery common at all. I mean, how,
how have you found thatconversation? And I would guess,
a more of a notion ofsolidarity. You know, how have
you seen that change? And howhave you seen your work,
(33:40):
particularly around anti-Asianhate and acceptance and
recognition of Sikh traditionsfitting in into that and the
shifting conversation?
Simran Jeet Singh (33:51):
Yeah, it's, it's, you're right, that it's
changing quite a bit havechanged a lot since I was in
school. It feels like it'schanging by the hour still. And
so you know, something that wasappropriate and acceptable
yesterday may not be appropriateand acceptable today. And
that's, that's really scary fora lot of people. And I think
(34:11):
what's even more scary. And thisis something that I see as a gap
in the way that this discourseis developing. What's even more
scary, is that there's verylittle space being left for
mistakes and missteps. And and Ithink that's, that's something
that is incredibly dangerous tothese really important movements
(34:36):
and to these really importantconversations, because when you
scare people away from trying,because they know that, that a
wrong move could result in theircancellation, as we're calling
it now. I mean, that keepspeople from trying even when
they want to, and it doesn'taccount for the reality of our
(34:58):
lives, which is you know, we'reall starting from a different
place, and everything is ajourney. And so, yes, I think
these conversations arecritical. And the progress I
mean, it is incredible. And I'mreally excited about it and
where things are headed. But I'mhoping, and this goes back to
our point around empathy. I'mhoping that there's a little bit
(35:18):
more space or maybe a lot morespace created for people to
learn for people to not beperfect because that's that's
who we are. And the longer wecontinue to go this way of
shutting people down rather thanopening them up, I think we were
only going to be selfdestructive I that's that's my
(35:42):
concern. The other the otherthing that I'll say here, and
this might be a little bit more,well, it's a little bit more
optimistic, I should say, I'mreally excited about the opening
up of conversations that I'vebeen wanting to have, for a long
time based on my ownexperiences. But now it's okay
(36:04):
to have them right. So what Imean by that is 20 years ago, 10
years ago, I was working onwhite supremacy, but I wouldn't
ever say it in public, I mightsay it in an academic setting.
But there was no way you wouldget me to talk about whiteness,
or white supremacy, or evenChristian nationalism, because
of the consequences of thatpeople wouldn't get it first of
all, but second of all, youwould be skewered. That's
(36:26):
changed entirely. I feelcomfortable talking about those
things. And I'm hoping that asthese conversations continue to
open up, as people continue topush the envelope, there's more
on the table for us to considerand discuss openly and honestly,
so that we can actually startdealing with some of the ills of
our societies, I think that's areally exciting part of the
(36:49):
proposition that, that I'mobserving and feeling like this
is this is a really cool time tobe working on these issues.
Chip Gruen (36:58):
So one of the sort of the taglines, the hallmarks,
the things that we really liketo do on ReligionWise, on this
podcast, is to consider what ourlisteners can do. Right? That
is, this is not just an esotericconversation between us, but
instead, to some extent, we wantpeople to be able to sort of
take something away, you know,to get homework to figure out
(37:21):
what it is that that they can doto not only be accepting of
people around them, but alsolive their own best, you know,
form of themself as well. Sowhat would be some things that
you know, somebody not inacademia, somebody not knee deep
in these issues, necessarily,should take away from this
conversation?
Simran Jeet Singh (37:43):
It's a great question, you know, the thing
about life is that there arecountless things that all of us
can do. And so it's, it's hardto boil it down into one. And
even within those countlessthings, there are categories,
right, like, educate yourself,you know, help connect, all that
stuff is important. Maybe maybethe thing I'm thinking about
today has less to do withexternal contributions and more
(38:08):
getting into this empathy piece.
And I'll share one idea that canhelp open people up to that if
they're interested. And that is,you know, one of the challenges
around bias is that we typicallydon't know it exists, until
until we're slapped in the facewith it. And we're like, oh, my
God, I can't believe I thoughtthat way, or I didn't realize
that I thought that way, orwhatever it was, right. And we
(38:29):
all have these areas where we'renot aware. And so the practice I
think, is, every day when youare going about your work, or
you're in social interactions,or whatever, try at least once
to pause and reflect on when youfelt judgment. Was there a
(38:50):
moment today where I was judgingsomeone? It's really hard to do
in the moment, because becausewe're all busy judging. But if
you can go back and say, oh,that was a place where I thought
something was messed up becauseof the way I am biased about
that particular identity orbehavior or whatever. I think
that is a way it's worked reallywell for me. Just a way to start
(39:12):
undercutting some of the biasesyou have. And when you can do
that you open yourself up toconnecting with people better
and more and building thatempathy muscle. So that's,
that's maybe something thatpeople can take away from our
conversation today.
Chip Gruen (39:28):
Yeah, that's an interesting one of the you know,
one of the things in the lastfive years or so I've started
using the word metacognitivewith my students all the time
about thinking about the waythat we're thinking, and this is
maybe metacognition, but but notnecessarily about cognition, but
about judgment and bias. I don'tknow that we have a name for
that, but being reflexive aboutthe way that we, that we
(39:49):
perceive and emotionally mightreact to situations.
Simran Jeet Singh (39:54):
Exactly. I mean, it's it's one of those
things. I mean, as an educator,one of one of the most rewarding
things about educating is notdumping information on people,
but realizing that you've helpedpeople learn how to think. And
one of the ways you do that isyou help people step away from
themselves and observe their ownthinking. And so this is just
another approach of that. We'veall done it in some form or
(40:16):
another. But we typically don'tdo it about this. So yeah, I
think it's, I think it's areally powerful exercise that
can help us do somethingdifferent than than we've
probably done before. Thank you.
Chip Gruen (40:29):
This has been really great. I really appreciate the
chance to get to know you alittle bit and to have this
conversation.
Simran Jeet Singh (40:34):
Yeah, same.
Thank you.
Chip Gruen (40:38):
This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced
by the Institute for Religiousand Cultural Understanding of
Muhlenberg College. For moreinformation and additional
programming, please visit ourwebsite at
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(41:01):
is produced by the staff of theInstitute for Religious and
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Christine Flicker, and CarrieDuncan. Please subscribe to
ReligionWise wherever you getyour podcasts. We look forward
to seeing you next time.
Welcome to ReligionWise, the podcast where
we feature educators,researchers and other
professionals discussing topicson religion and their relevance
to the public conversation. Myname is Chip Gruen. I'm the
Director of the Institute forReligious and Cultural
Understanding at MuhlenbergCollege, and I will be the host
for this podcast.
(00:30):
Today's episode of ReligionWisefeatures my conversation with
Simran Jeet Singh. Simran is ahighly sought out speaker on
diversity, equity, inclusion,justice and anti-racism. His
thought leadership extendsacross corporate, university and
government settings, and hiswork has been featured in
various outlets including NPR,CNN, BBC, Time, The Washington
Post and The New York Times.
Simran is especially passionateabout creating more cohesion,
(00:52):
equity, and joy for allstakeholders. I'm pleased to say
that Dr. Singh will also givethe Wallenberg Tribute lecture
on November 7th, on the campusof Muhlenberg College. You can
get more details about thatevent at religionandculture.com.
In our conversation, we talkabout his experiences of growing
up a Sikh in South Texas, hisrole as an activist who is
(01:13):
actively working for change andworking for a more just and more
equitable society, as well ashis role as a scholar whose job
is to describe and help otherpeople understand the belief and
practice of religiouscommunities. It's my pleasure to
welcome Dr. Singh toReligionWise.
(01:36):
So first, I just wanted to thankyou very much for agreeing to
participate in, in a number ofactivities at Muhlenberg this
semester, the Wallenberg Lectureand this podcast, we're super
happy to have you included inthe program.
Simran Jeet Singh (01:49):
Of course, no it's my pleasure, I'm looking
forward to it.
Chip Gruen (01:52):
I'm interested, you know, that obviously, your your
PhD is from one of the bestuniversities in the world,
you're trained in religiousstudies. And you do teach, but
you've really chosen a careerpath that is more about public
engagement. And I'm interestedin that and how you see the
relationship between that publicengagement and scholarship and
(02:15):
also between sort of personalidentity and sometimes the
distance that comes withacademic training.
Simran Jeet Singh (02:21):
Yeah, it's a great question. And actually, I
couldn't really talk about myacademic identity, without
talking about my personalidentity, that for me, they,
they come very close together.
And that's very much because of,of my own experience in this
world, and how I've, how I'vegrown up, and how I've
experienced racism, and, andreally, what motivated me to
(02:43):
even get into academic study inthe first place is, is very much
tied to to those experiences,you know, I was a senior in high
school when the terroristattacks of 9/11 happened. And
after those attacks, my lifechanged drastically in terms of
the intensity of the hate, thatI experienced as a Sikh, and
(03:06):
that my community experienced.
And that's what really propelledme onto the path of academic
study. I wanted to know what washappening, why it was happening,
and how I could fix it. And allthree of those questions were
really important to me. Andwhile the academic study of
religion helped me answer thefirst two, the the what and the
(03:28):
why it didn't really prepare mesufficiently to think about how
to fix it, how to support mycommunities, how to ensure our
survival, and our safety and ourcomfort in this country. And so
that's where I really startedlearning about justice
organizations efforts, publicengagement, and made that a
(03:49):
critical part of my work in thisworld.
Chip Gruen (03:52):
So there are a couple things I'd like to follow
up on I mean, one you talkedabout, you know, your life
changing dramatically in 2001and though obviously, Sikh
culture and religious heritageis deeply tied to India, you
grew up in South Texas. So canyou talk a little bit about your
your upbringing and about, aboutgrowing up as a Sikh in South
(04:15):
Texas? I mean, maybe pre 2001and then we can talk about the
changes?
Simran Jeet Singh (04:19):
Yes, sure. So my parents are both from they're
both Punjabi Sikhs bybackground. My my father grew up
in outside of Punjab, in UttarPradesh in a different state in
India, and my mother also grewup in a state outside of Punjab
called Haryana. So, so they're,they're sort of diasporic in a
(04:39):
sense. But still within India,my my grandparents on both sides
lived in Western Punjab, whichbefore the split in 1947, that
was Pakistan. And so they theymoved in that mass migration,
which is one of the largest inhuman history. They moved amid
(05:00):
that violence and survived butessentially landed in India with
nothing. And then my parentsagain left India and moved to
the US with essentially nothingand so it's it's kind of a story
of our family's life and formany Sikhs, this this experience
of double belonging or maybeeven more like not belonging
(05:24):
anywhere. And that that feltreally true for me growing up in
Texas right I was I was born andraised there, I have three
brothers, we're all really closein age, five and a half years
from top to bottom. So my mypoor mom, having having to raise
four rambunctious, mischievousboys in the middle of, in the
(05:46):
middle of Texas where we grewup, and, and on the one hand,
our lives felt very normal. Youknow, we had friends and
teammates, and classmates andteachers who we who we loved,
and who we hung out with, andwho we considered close friends
and still do. But at the sametime, we were under no illusion
that we actually fit inanywhere. We stood out
(06:08):
everywhere we went, peoplealways commented on our turbans,
usually not maliciously, theywould just ask, you know, what's
that about? What's on your head?
Why do you wear that? And, youknow, we learn to answer that.
Sometimes it would be a littlebit more malicious, a little bit
uglier, you know, we would getinto arguments and fights
sometimes depending on howthings played out. So it's not
(06:31):
like it was this, you know,idyllic, harmonious upbringing
that there were some challengestoo. But, you know, as part of
that, I would say, we had tolearn from a really young age,
because of the way we stood outwhere we were growing up. And
because people were constantlyasking us questions about who we
were including our friends andour classmates, we had to
(06:54):
understand our heritage, and ourparents took a lot of care, to
communicate and transmit ourtraditions to us, we grew up
speaking only Punjabi, until westarted daycare, which is
something that I've done with myown daughters now so that they
(07:14):
can retain the language. We hadtons of books at home, we would
learn to read and write at home,we learned musical traditions at
home. So it was it was anisolated upbringing in that
sense, where it's not like wehad other Sikhs around us who we
could learn with in a Sundayschool type of setting. But that
(07:36):
is, you know, a lot of that is atestament to my parents, that we
were able to feel connected withthis tradition that was very
much not part of the of the ofthe South Texas fabric. And it
was only because of their effortat home.
Chip Gruen (07:55):
So when they moved to South Texas, it wasn't that
they were moving into adiasporic Sikh community that
was already there. It was yourfamily and that was it.
Simran Jeet Singh (08:04):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, there were a
handful of other Punjabi's, someSikhs, a few South Asians, you
know, very, very, I mean, verymuch the makeup of South Texas
at the time was Hispanic, Black,and White, I mean, that that's
what my school's makeup looklike. That's what our
neighborhood looked like. That'swhat my friends circle look
like. That's my soccer teamslook like. So that was very much
(08:27):
the experience. Now it's changeda bit. But it really wasn't a
place. And you know, you sort ofsee this in immigration
patterns, you know, you you seecommunities come and create
pockets, where they sort of livetogether in ethnic enclaves and
find comfort that way. And then,as time goes on, people start
venturing out. And so my fatherwas one of those adventurers who
(08:52):
thought South Texas was a goodplace for him and a good place
for a Sikh family. And in manyways, I think he was right, I
see the wisdom in his decisionthere. And like any, like any
decision there, there are prosand cons. And one of the one of
the cons, I think, was that wedidn't really have a strong
(09:12):
community, and we didn't reallyhave people around us who we
felt like could understand ourexperiences growing up, you
know, the kinds of challengesthat I faced, it felt really
isolating. But at the same time,I think there was a lot of
growth and strength that camethrough learning how to navigate
these challenges. And I'mgrateful for all of that.
Chip Gruen (09:34):
So you also mentioned, you know, you're a
senior in high school and in2001, that your situation
changes because of the September11 terrorist attacks. And one of
the I mean, one of theinteresting things about this,
one of the things that I want topush on a little bit, is how it
is on the one hand American,sort of just sort of the public
(09:58):
conversation about religiousdiversity in America is so
impoverished that you know thatthat the populace sees a Sikh
male in particular, andmisidentifies religious
tradition, right? That there'sthis confusion about just
because of the lack of literacyaround Sikhs and people of the
(10:19):
Muslim faith on the one hand,but on the other hand, I've also
seen, you know, Sikh commentaryon this saying, it's on the one
hand, we want to say, no, no,that's not us. But on the other
hand, not wanting to throwanother minority group, you
know, to the wolves, right, bysaying, you know, go ahead, hate
(10:39):
them don't hate us, right, thatthere's something really
difficult about this situation,it seems to me, someone from
your community identity would,is put in?
Simran Jeet Singh (10:49):
Yeah, it's an incredibly difficult situation.
I mean, I, one of the thingsthat I've learned is that in
situations of racism or otherforms of oppression, there's
there's no perfect answer. Youknow, the, the conditions are
set up for people to loseregardless. And so it's, it's
(11:12):
often a matter of what's theworst? What's the worst loss and
trying to avoid that and findingout what's, what's the best loss
and aiming for that. And soit's, it's really difficult. And
I would say, you know, evenwithin the Sikh community,
there's no consensus in terms ofthe best way to handle a
question like this. But one ofthe things that I observed, you
(11:33):
know, as a high school student,after 9/11, was Sikh
communities. You know, we wouldget on conference calls in the
evenings immediately after 9/11,led by community leaders all
over the country. And on thesecalls, people would share their
reports on the hate attacks thatwere happening in their
communities, what they weredoing about it, and eventually
we would get to this question,Well, what do we do
(11:55):
collectively? What's ourmessaging? What's our plan? And
this is where that conversationreally came to a head where you
would I mean, I would hearpeople who I admired and
respected, give really strongarguments for different
approaches. And they all makesense, right? They all have
their merit. The place whereI've landed personally, over
time, is essentially a threepart approach that says,
(12:20):
hey, I'm not Muslim, I'm a Sikh.
And even if you were, even if Iwasn't Muslim, you know, your
bigotry is wrong. And soessentially, what what that
method does, and I use that sortof three part structure to
triangulate all of my responses,and they differ in different
contexts, depending on whatfeels appropriate. But
(12:42):
essentially, in the first two,I'm trying to educate somebody
and say, let me give you acouple of facts. And so it's,
it's super simple, but as you'resaying, and as you've said,
cultural and religious literacyis so impoverished in this
country, that those basic factsthat you would expect, or want
somebody to know, like, thoseactually do work. So there is
(13:03):
some important thing there butbut to leave it there, and this
is what we were finding in thoseearly moments after 9/11. To
leave it at those two factualstatements and say, I'm not
Muslim, I'm a Sikh is toimplicitly send the message,
that you got the wrong person,go get there, go get the quote,
unquote, right person. And that,while it wasn't our intention,
(13:26):
and it wasn't my intention, thatwas the impact. And we recognize
that pretty quickly. And sothat's, that's not within our
value system. And so then thequestion becomes, what do you
do? How do you how do youactually live into your values?
And, you know, to put it intopractical terms, I would say the
(13:48):
easiest response is the firstone, right? Like, I'm not
Muslim, I'm a s Sikh, it'sfactually true, and it creates
more safety for you immediately.
But I don't think it createsmore safety in the long run,
because it doesn't actuallyaddress hate at its core. And so
there's, there's a realstrategic principle here, which
(14:12):
is to say, if you really want tocreate safety for your
communities, then you have toaddress the problem rather than
pushing it aside or deflectingit to another group. And so
that's one. And then the otheranimating principle for me here
is around the ethical response,what's the right thing to do?
And you know, a lot of times in,in in difficult situations, and
(14:35):
especially when your family'ssafety is involved. Doing the
right thing isn't always asimportant as doing the safest
thing. But in this case, when wehave a chance to help shape the
narrative. To me, I thinkfocusing on what is ethical from
the perspective of the traditionis really important, and so I
(14:56):
had to dig a little bit deeperand think about, what does our
tradition teach us aboutstanding up for others? And one
of the things that's very clearto me and we learn this as kids,
you know, all Sikh kids learnthis early is the teaching that
it is our responsibility asSikhs, to stand up for the
(15:18):
rights of others, no matter whatconsequences that may have for
us. And one of the very, I mean,that's, that's a teaching that
we learned early and one of theways that comes through, is in
this really popular, what wecall a Sakhi. An account of the
ninth gurus' life, Guru TeghBahadur who was approached by
(15:42):
Kashmiri Brahmins who are beingpersecuted under Aurangzeb's
rule. And they come to Guru TeghBahadur and they say, hey, we
know you're not of the samereligion as us, we know that
you're not being persecuted. Butwe need help. And we know that
you are somebody who says thatyou're here to help. And Guru
(16:03):
Tegh Bahadur stands by that, andalthough his community wasn't
being troubled, by by thepersecution of Aurangzeb's
Empire, Guru Tegh Bahadur goesto Delhi, and he's arrested. And
he's tortured. And he's executedfor doing that. And to me, it is
the ultimate example of whatsolidarity looks like what ally
(16:26):
ship looks like, like in thiscountry, we talk about these
ideas, day in and day out. Butwe don't really see it in action
in ways where people areactually taking and making
sacrifices, showing up forpeople and taking risk in order
to ensure their safety. And soto me, when when I reflected on
(16:48):
that particular account, it feltreally clear that the right
thing to do, and the strategicthing to do was to ensure that
we weren't throwing anothercommunity under the bus.
Chip Gruen (17:00):
So connected to that, I've been looking one of
the outlets that you write foris Religion, News Service, you
have the Articles of Faith isthe the name of the column that
you write. And the topics thatyou deal with are relatively far
ranging right, between questionsabout various religious
minorities, for example, both inthe US and abroad. And I
(17:24):
wondered if you could justaddress for a minute, what you
what you see your beat as,right, what is the through line?
What is the thing that holdstogether your work? You know,
when you're when you're writingand thinking about these types
of issues?
Simran Jeet Singh (17:38):
Yeah, it's a it's a great question. And I
think I think, you know, I'llexplain first how I got to it.
And then and then talk about thethrough line, but but I think
the how is very much myexperience of being on the
margins in this country, and,and really having to constantly
find a way to feel like my voiceand our community's voices being
(18:00):
heard. And that experience, Imean, it shows up over and over
again, as a theme, right? So Ihave a children's book that just
came out. And when I was a kid,and even when I was writing this
book now, people had beensaying, well, there's no market
for that, those stories aren'trelatable, no one has interest
in people like you essentially,what was the message. And that's
(18:22):
happened, you know, in alldifferent contexts. When I, when
I started my graduate studies,and I got to Harvard Divinity
School, you know, it's it's themost resourced university in the
world. And I get there, and theysay, well, we don't really do
Sikhism, but you can study Islamand Hinduism instead, and then
figure it out from there. And soI did, and that's kind of what
(18:42):
I've had to do. But that's thestory, not just of me, but also
so many people on the margins.
And I think it's that experienceof knowing what it's what it
feels like to be left out andoverlooked. That's really
animated my passion for helpingvarious communities be seen. And
so within my beat, the throughline really feels like bringing
(19:07):
visibility to underrepresentedstories to marginalized groups.
And to do so with the angle ofjustice, right? I'm not just
interested in describing whatpeople's experiences are like, I
also want people to think aboutwhat does equity look like for
them? What does fairness looklike for them? Where did they
want to be? And where do we wantthem to be? And essentially,
(19:30):
where do we all want to be?
Right? That to me is the throughline that shows up in different
ways, because we have so muchdiversity in this world, and we
have a diversity of problemstoo. And so trying to sort of
lift up those problems so thatwe are able to better see them,
(19:50):
and then also to startindicating, or at least pointing
towards opportunities forgrowth. And I think that to me,
Feels like. I mean, I'll justsay one more thing about that
this is what I do in my writing.
But it's you know, I teach rightnow I'm teaching a course on
global Buddhist histories. I'vetaught Islamic studies before.
I've taught Hinduism I've taughtSikhism. So in many ways, it's
(20:13):
almost like, there's thisfeeling that I have that
although I have my ownparticular identity and
convictions as a Sikh, myinterest is not limited to that.
It's very much oriented aroundthis idea that none of us will
have freedom until all of us hasfreedom. And that's and that's a
(20:35):
very progressive liberal value.
But it's also something that'srooted in my in my faith as
well.
Chip Gruen (20:42):
So the picture book you mentioned is Fauja Singh
Keeps Going.
Simran Jeet Singh (20:47):
That's right.
Yeah.
Chip Gruen (20:48):
The True Story of the Oldest Person to Ever Run a
Marathon. And I'll just have,you know, my wife is actually
elementary school teacher. Andas soon as I am done with this,
this is going right into herinto her library. So there's
another group of people who willbe exposed to these lessons. And
and I'll just say, I wouldencourage people to pick this up
whether you have little kids inyour life or not, because it's
(21:11):
not only dealing with the ideaof religious and cultural
minority and being on theoutside, but it also considers
disability and other types ofways that people are
marginalized, you know, in ourworld, I think it's super
edifying. And and I reallyenjoyed looking at that. And I
think you've addressed thisalready, but the children's
(21:32):
book, right, so this has to dowith representation. I mean, how
much did you write this foryoung Sikh kids who don't see
themselves in books? And howmuch did you write this for
everybody else who don't seeSikhs in books?
Simran Jeet Singh (21:45):
Oh, it's such, it's such a good question.
Because I think when I startedwriting, the answer was one
thing. And then that at the endof it, it was something else.
And what I mean by that is, youknow, growing up as a Sikh in
Texas, not seeing Sikhs in anysort of media, and real and
really wishing my friends couldjust see it so that they would
see us as more normal. It was mydream from childhood, that I
(22:10):
would that I would start writingchildren's books, right, so so
that, to me, was very much this.
This is something for the kidsin my community. And for my
younger self, too. But as Istarted writing it, so I'll say
I made that promise to myself,when I was a kid, kind of forgot
about it. I mean, it was alwaysin the back of my mind. But then
(22:33):
when my older daughter was justabout to be born, that memory,
that commitment took took a lifeof its own again. And so that's
when I really started writing.
But at first, I was just writingstories about Sikhs, right?
Like, it took me a while to landon this story. And I think what
I was struggling with was, Ivery much wanted a story in
(22:57):
which kids of my community couldsee themselves. But I also
started to recognize thatthrough my work in racial
justice circles, especially myvision of what I wanted to do in
this world had changed a bit.
And it wasn't just about liftingup my community was also about
opening up doors, or at leastwindows as we talk about them in
(23:17):
the in the children's bookworld. Windows through which
people could see who we are. Andyou know, in the children's
world, you talk about windowsand mirrors, children's books
are windows and mirrors we canthink about all education as
windows and mirrors right? Inour conversations around
representation. Part of thevalue is to say, you can see
(23:38):
yourself and imagine yourself asa hero. And that's really
important to me, as a father, asI'm looking at my two girls, who
watched me be racially profiledwhen I walked through airport
security, and they're gettingthese messages that, and I know
this is going to happen, they'llbe ashamed and embarrassed that
their dad wears a turban andlooks different. And so to have
some sense of pride, somepositive messaging around that
(24:03):
feels really important to me asa parent, but also the kids in
my daughter's class are notSikh. And they're not even South
Asian, most of them. And so whatdoes it mean for them to get a
positive message through awindow, you know, using this
book, I mean, that, to me, hasbecome equally important. And so
initially, while it was it wasvery much a mirror proposition.
(24:25):
Over time, it's become a balanceof both things. And I see equal
value in both because, you know,as much as as much as it's about
instilling pride in our own kidsand making them feel proud of
who they are. It's also aboutensuring that others around us
are recognizing not just thechallenges that we endure, but
(24:46):
also our underlying humanity.
And I think I think that'ssomething that we don't do
enough with our young kids andit's become increasingly
important for me.
Chip Gruen (24:57):
So one of the pieces of vocabulary in other writing
that you do, that I wanted tojust kind of highlight and drill
down on a little bit is thecharacteristic or the habit of
mind of empathy, and empathytowards others and you use that
a fair amount. What, whatexactly do you mean by that? And
(25:20):
how do you think it'sparticularly important to sort
of the contemporary discoursearound religious diversity,
cultural diversity, racialdiversity, you know, all the
sort of issues that we face inour world?
Simran Jeet Singh (25:33):
Yeah, I appreciate that question a ton
because, you know, it's not,it's not often something that
comes up in conversations withacademics, especially, you know,
we're, we're trained to believe,and I believe this growing up
too, and I still think there'ssome truth to it, but it's not
the entire truth. We're trainedto believe that knowledge is our
(25:55):
salvation, that if we know aboutone another, then we'll be
kinder to one another. And themore we know, the better off we
are, which, to some extent istrue. But it's also true that we
are the most knowledgeablecivilization in human history,
(26:15):
that we have more access toinformation than any other group
of people at any other time inthe world. And look at where we
are, right? Like, we're not,we're not I wouldn't say we're
actually at the peak of humancivilization. I mean, in many
ways, it feels like we'reregressing. And so it can't be
(26:37):
that knowledge is going to solvethe kinds of problems that we
have today. It is it is ourinability to connect with one
another, to see one another totreat each other with dignity.
That really creates a lot of ourproblems, right? Like one of the
major discussions we're havingin our country right now is
around supremacy, differentkinds of supremacy, right? So
(26:57):
you can call it white supremacy,you can look at gender
supremacy, you can look atnationalistic supremacy, I mean,
all of them require this logicthat make us see ourselves as
superior and other people asinferior. And the only way you
can do that is if you dehumanizepeople and say they are less
than or subhuman. And and thatis I mean, that is that is the
(27:22):
underlying problem of so much ofour pain today. So if that's the
problem, then what's theantidote? Maybe there was a time
when I believe that knowledgewas the antidote. And that that
would correct all of theseissues. But now as I look
around, that doesn't seem to bethe case, there has to be
something else. And so to me,it's really become almost so
(27:46):
clear that it's obvious. And Ithink once we think about it, it
makes sense that ifdehumanization is the problem
than learning how to humanizeone another, learning how to see
the humanity in one another, toconnect, to feel with one
another, and for one another, Ithink that's the solution. And
so that's, that's what I mean byempathy. And it's why I've
(28:09):
started to make so much effortaround, around building that
because I think it's somethingwe desperately need in our world
today.
Chip Gruen (28:17):
Yeah, so the mission statement for the Institute for
Religious and CulturalUnderstanding, I wonder if it
gets at this because we have twogoals. One, I think is that
information piece that theliteracy piece, right, people
need to know, you know, who thepeople in their neighborhood
are, right, who the people theysee on the street. The other
part, and maybe it is sort of myacademic-ness sort of coming
(28:40):
out. But I talk about modelingas sophisticated discourse,
modeling conversation. And and Iguess I would hope that what is
being modeled there is, youknow, is humanizing and
imagining somebody, you know,everybody else to have, you
know, their own value aside fromyou, or their utility to you.
(29:01):
That's at least my hope.
Simran Jeet Singh (29:02):
Yeah. And I think I think that makes good
sense. I think, especially in acontext where we don't have
models for disagreement, anddifferent opinions in ways that
allows for those differences toexist, but also for our humanity
to remain intact. And so yeah,absolutely. I think I think
(29:24):
modeling is a critical componentof how we can build up empathy.
And really, I think showstudents, community members,
other stakeholders, like thereis a way to do this. And I think
I think it's a really importantfirst step that educators can
consider. I mean, it's somethingwe know how to do. It's
something we've been trained todo. But it's not something we
(29:46):
necessarily do publicly. Andit's not something we do around
them or difficult conversationsthat are on people's minds. And
so creating spaces for that,where people can see, oh, I
understand not just that this ispossible, but I can I can learn
some techniques and some skillsaround having these kinds of
(30:07):
conversations and stayingconnected to people. I think
that's critically important. SoI yeah, I'm right on the same
page with you there.
Chip Gruen (30:14):
You also have a forthcoming book that is not a
children's book, a forthcomingbook, The Light We Give: The
Power of Sikh Wisdom toTransform Your Life. And from my
admittedly limited interactionwith the Sikh community, and I'm
not a scholar of Sikhism, I'm ascholar of Ancient Christianity,
primarily. But from my limitedexposure, it seems like there
(30:37):
are a lot of places where thingsthat we might call civic
engagement or socialresponsibility are dealt with
head on, in Sikh tradition, atleast from from what I've seen
about the pre publication thingsabout this book that seems to be
what you're what you'reinterested in, what you're going
going for, is that sound aboutright?
Simran Jeet Singh (30:56):
Yeah, it's, it's part of my hope of this
book, that it's not just anintroduction to Sikhism, which
which it also is, right, like,I'm hoping that people will
learn about a faith, you know,the world's fifth largest that
they haven't yet encountered,probably. And so it is
introductory in that way. But tome, the value of religion and
(31:20):
Sikhism in particular is notlimited to its history. And to
its influence, it's also whatare and and this is why I value
it so much, and why I cherishit, there are some real gems
that can help make our livesbetter. And there are some
people who have lived in thisworld of various traditions who
(31:40):
have figured out things that weare having a very difficult
thing figuring out. And so youknow, some of these questions
that I've struggled with in myown life, some of which have to
do with the kinds of racism I'veexperienced, and learning how to
deal with that, right? Like, howdo you? How do you love someone
who hates you? How do yourespond to hate with love? but
(32:03):
also things that are, you know,more, I would say, everyday
experiences too. Including, youknow, what does it look like to
see someone around you, as partof yourself? What does it look
like to deal with, with the theego and the greed and those
(32:27):
kinds of challenges that come inlife? And I don't, I don't think
I don't see many young people,or people in our world
generally, finding good answersto those questions. I feel like
I've found good answers throughmy tradition. And so it's, it's
just a matter of, for me takingthose ideas and, and trying to
(32:49):
share them with the worldbecause I think it could make
people's lives better and makeour society better.
Chip Gruen (32:56):
So it occurs to me that that some of the language
that you use, describing yourwork around justice, and equity,
and so forth, that thatconversation, the way that we
have that conversation haschanged a little bit over the
past five to 10 years, and maybeeven more recently than that,
(33:17):
you know, that the language ofallyship, for example, is not
something when I was in highschool, right, or college or
even graduate school was wasvery common at all. I mean, how,
how have you found thatconversation? And I would guess,
a more of a notion ofsolidarity. You know, how have
you seen that change? And howhave you seen your work,
(33:40):
particularly around anti-Asianhate and acceptance and
recognition of Sikh traditionsfitting in into that and the
shifting conversation?
Simran Jeet Singh (33:51):
Yeah, it's, it's, you're right, that it's
changing quite a bit havechanged a lot since I was in
school. It feels like it'schanging by the hour still. And
so you know, something that wasappropriate and acceptable
yesterday may not be appropriateand acceptable today. And
that's, that's really scary fora lot of people. And I think
(34:11):
what's even more scary. And thisis something that I see as a gap
in the way that this discourseis developing. What's even more
scary, is that there's verylittle space being left for
mistakes and missteps. And and Ithink that's, that's something
that is incredibly dangerous tothese really important movements
(34:36):
and to these really importantconversations, because when you
scare people away from trying,because they know that, that a
wrong move could result in theircancellation, as we're calling
it now. I mean, that keepspeople from trying even when
they want to, and it doesn'taccount for the reality of our
(34:58):
lives, which is you know, we'reall starting from a different
place, and everything is ajourney. And so, yes, I think
these conversations arecritical. And the progress I
mean, it is incredible. And I'mreally excited about it and
where things are headed. But I'mhoping, and this goes back to
our point around empathy. I'mhoping that there's a little bit
(35:18):
more space or maybe a lot morespace created for people to
learn for people to not beperfect because that's that's
who we are. And the longer wecontinue to go this way of
shutting people down rather thanopening them up, I think we were
only going to be selfdestructive I that's that's my
(35:42):
concern. The other the otherthing that I'll say here, and
this might be a little bit more,well, it's a little bit more
optimistic, I should say, I'mreally excited about the opening
up of conversations that I'vebeen wanting to have, for a long
time based on my ownexperiences. But now it's okay
(36:04):
to have them right. So what Imean by that is 20 years ago, 10
years ago, I was working onwhite supremacy, but I wouldn't
ever say it in public, I mightsay it in an academic setting.
But there was no way you wouldget me to talk about whiteness,
or white supremacy, or evenChristian nationalism, because
of the consequences of thatpeople wouldn't get it first of
all, but second of all, youwould be skewered. That's
(36:26):
changed entirely. I feelcomfortable talking about those
things. And I'm hoping that asthese conversations continue to
open up, as people continue topush the envelope, there's more
on the table for us to considerand discuss openly and honestly,
so that we can actually startdealing with some of the ills of
our societies, I think that's areally exciting part of the
(36:49):
proposition that, that I'mobserving and feeling like this
is this is a really cool time tobe working on these issues.
Chip Gruen (36:58):
So one of the sort of the taglines, the hallmarks,
the things that we really liketo do on ReligionWise, on this
podcast, is to consider what ourlisteners can do. Right? That
is, this is not just an esotericconversation between us, but
instead, to some extent, we wantpeople to be able to sort of
take something away, you know,to get homework to figure out
(37:21):
what it is that that they can doto not only be accepting of
people around them, but alsolive their own best, you know,
form of themself as well. Sowhat would be some things that
you know, somebody not inacademia, somebody not knee deep
in these issues, necessarily,should take away from this
conversation?
Simran Jeet Singh (37:43):
It's a great question, you know, the thing
about life is that there arecountless things that all of us
can do. And so it's, it's hardto boil it down into one. And
even within those countlessthings, there are categories,
right, like, educate yourself,you know, help connect, all that
stuff is important. Maybe maybethe thing I'm thinking about
today has less to do withexternal contributions and more
(38:08):
getting into this empathy piece.
And I'll share one idea that canhelp open people up to that if
they're interested. And that is,you know, one of the challenges
around bias is that we typicallydon't know it exists, until
until we're slapped in the facewith it. And we're like, oh, my
God, I can't believe I thoughtthat way, or I didn't realize
that I thought that way, orwhatever it was, right. And we
(38:29):
all have these areas where we'renot aware. And so the practice I
think, is, every day when youare going about your work, or
you're in social interactions,or whatever, try at least once
to pause and reflect on when youfelt judgment. Was there a
(38:50):
moment today where I was judgingsomeone? It's really hard to do
in the moment, because becausewe're all busy judging. But if
you can go back and say, oh,that was a place where I thought
something was messed up becauseof the way I am biased about
that particular identity orbehavior or whatever. I think
that is a way it's worked reallywell for me. Just a way to start
(39:12):
undercutting some of the biasesyou have. And when you can do
that you open yourself up toconnecting with people better
and more and building thatempathy muscle. So that's,
that's maybe something thatpeople can take away from our
conversation today.
Chip Gruen (39:28):
Yeah, that's an interesting one of the you know,
one of the things in the lastfive years or so I've started
using the word metacognitivewith my students all the time
about thinking about the waythat we're thinking, and this is
maybe metacognition, but but notnecessarily about cognition, but
about judgment and bias. I don'tknow that we have a name for
that, but being reflexive aboutthe way that we, that we
(39:49):
perceive and emotionally mightreact to situations.
Simran Jeet Singh (39:54):
Exactly. I mean, it's it's one of those
things. I mean, as an educator,one of one of the most rewarding
things about educating is notdumping information on people,
but realizing that you've helpedpeople learn how to think. And
one of the ways you do that isyou help people step away from
themselves and observe their ownthinking. And so this is just
another approach of that. We'veall done it in some form or
(40:16):
another. But we typically don'tdo it about this. So yeah, I
think it's, I think it's areally powerful exercise that
can help us do somethingdifferent than than we've
probably done before. Thank you.
Chip Gruen (40:29):
This has been really great. I really appreciate the
chance to get to know you alittle bit and to have this
conversation.
Simran Jeet Singh (40:34):
Yeah, same.
Thank you.
Chip Gruen (40:38):
This has been ReligionWise, a podcast produced
by the Institute for Religiousand Cultural Understanding of
Muhlenberg College. For moreinformation and additional
programming, please visit ourwebsite at
religionandculture.com. There,you'll find our contact
information, links to otherprogramming, and have the
opportunity to support the workof the Institute. ReligionWise
(41:01):
is produced by the staff of theInstitute for Religious and
Cultural Understanding ofMuhlenberg College, including
Christine Flicker, and CarrieDuncan. Please subscribe to
ReligionWise wherever you getyour podcasts. We look forward
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