May 15, 2024 • 53 mins
We all know the aphorism about the unavoidability of death and taxes. On this episode of ReligionWise, we consider the former with funeral director Dustin Grim. Among other topics, this conversation reflects on changes in religious affiliation in the contemporary world and how these changes affect funerary practice. We also ask what these changes can tell us about shifting perceptions of the body, giving us a window into how people think about death itself.
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Episode Transcript
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Chip Gruen (00:04):
Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host Chip
Gruen. So if you're a longtimelistener of the podcast, you'll
know the goals are to talk aboutthe ways in which the public
conversation on religionhappens. And that can happen in
a number of ways. I mean, wedeal a lot with education, of
course, sometimes we deal withmore abstract ideas, like the
(00:26):
philosophy of religion orphilosophy of spirituality. So
we talk to scholars, and we alsotalk to people who are more
broadly influential on the waywe think about religion within,
again, the public square, notjust in academia, but in the
world we all inhabit. Today'sepisode, I think gets directly
(00:50):
at that question, and maybe inways that you won't expect. So
we sit down today with DustinGrim funeral director at Schantz
Funeral Home, here in the LehighValley. And I've really wanted
to have this conversation for along time. Because it seems to
me that when we're thinkingabout what some people might
(01:13):
call questions of ultimateconcern, or the big questions,
we might say more colloquially,what does it mean to be human?
What's the meaning of life? Whathappens after we die? I think
it's possible to skirt thosequestions or not really
(01:34):
addressed those questions in ourdaily life, whether those be
family concerns, or workconcerns, there are ways in
which we can pay the bills, takethe kids to soccer practice what
have you, and not reallynecessarily confront those big
questions that really arepertinent to all of us. The
(02:01):
exception to that I think, arebig life events, that one might
be more introspective upon thebirth of the child, or a
wedding, or for today'sconversation, the death of a
loved one. And we might thinkabout dealing with death and
(02:21):
grief, of course, there arereligious leaders who offer
counseling and support to peoplewho are members of religious
communities, there are familymembers and friends, you know,
who people talk to you,obviously. But really, on the
front lines of this conversationare the people who are
responsible for disposition ofthe body. In the United States,
(02:46):
funeral homes and funeraldirectors have this place within
the way that we deal with death.
That is, that is interesting ina lot of ways. It's not
religious, per se. But it'squasi religious because it does
interact with people at times inwhich they are facing these big
questions. Likewise, I wouldcall it also a quasi public
(03:10):
space as well, because it's opento people to deal with, not in a
public way, not in agovernmental like policy kind of
way, but not wholly private,either, that these are
businesses that cater to publicneeds, and provide service for
(03:31):
the public in a way that is thattaps into and sort of confronts
those public perceptions andideas about those ultimate
concerns we talked aboutearlier. I think this is a
really interesting conversation,we deal with two major poles
(03:51):
that I'll have you listened for.
One is the shifts in thefunerary industry, from
inhumation, that is the burialof a body. To cremation, that is
the burning of the body, andthen the collection of the
(04:12):
ashes. This is a shift that hashappened gradually, until it was
all at once over the course ofthe last 100 years. And you'll
you'll hear some statistics inour conversation today. But
suffice it to say that we arenow in a majority cremation
society. And I think that thereare implications that we can
(04:34):
read into that shift. And somepeople, you know, might think,
Oh, this is an economic issue,or this is an ecological issue.
But I think it also makes youthink about how do we consider
our bodies? What do we think thehuman body is? Is it just a
vessel for something else? Is itan in identity in itself? Do we
(04:57):
need it? Traditional religiouspractice, particularly in the
West sort of insists on or hasinsisted traditionally, on the
resurrection of the body. And sowhen we see that shift from
inhumation or burial tocremation, we might think that
there are larger forces at work.
And Dustin, and I talk a littlebit about that. The other part
(05:19):
of this that's interesting isthat when we think about
religious identity in the UnitedStates today, whether that be
people who are less oftenaffiliated with a religious
institution, not as church goingnot members in communities, or
we talk about the increasingpluralism of religious belief
(05:42):
and practice the United Statesdue to immigration patterns, but
also other kinds of shifts inthe religious landscape. So how
does a funeral home deal withthat? How does this affect the
services they offer, whetherthose be private helping
individuals and families dealwith grief, or whether those be
(06:05):
public right helping with thesocial ceremonies and functions
of disposition of the body? SoI've gone on too long already.
But you can tell I'm reallyfascinated with this topic,
because of the immediacy, andthe universality of the issue
(06:30):
here, that this is somethingthat we all deal with, in
different ways, though, it getslargely funneled through this
funeral home business. And justbefore we get into the
conversation, one more smallnote, if you are in an industry
that is likewise adjacent toreligious belief and practice,
(06:55):
and you think, oh, gosh,actually, this rhymes a lot with
some of the questions andconcerns that we have, dealing
with an increasingly diversepublic or a public that is less
that identifies less withparticular religious identity,
by all means, reach out to us,we would love to have that
conversation. I think that thiskind of conversation is the one
(07:16):
that I think really willresonate with lots of people
because we have experiences likethe ones described today, in
which we are confronted withwith these big questions. So
without further ado, here's myconversation with Dustin Grim, I
hope you enjoy it. Dustin Grim,thanks for coming on
(07:38):
ReligionWise.
Dustin Grim (07:40):
Appreciate that, thank you.
Chip Gruen (07:41):
So before we get started and talking about your
experiences as a funeraldirector, I just wanted to start
with a little bit of personalbiography. How does one get in
to the to the business offunerals, like what led you to
this place vocationally?
Dustin Grim (07:58):
So I graduated high school started college at
Kutztown University pursuing adegree in biology. Two years
into that I decided I wasn'tsure college was for me,
happened that my next doorneighbor growing up was a head
nurse in the operating room atthe running hospital. And so she
encouraged me to come down thereand they were looking to fill
(08:20):
seats in a surgical technologyprogram there, which is nothing
more than assisting in andhanding instrumentation for
surgical procedures, decided to,to go through with that and
finished my schooling there,became a certified surgical
technologist, as part of thatdid lots of orthopedic work, and
(08:42):
got into transplantation andharvesting of organs and tissues
and those kinds of things. And,and also, eye enucleations, and
kind of got to a crossroad of doI go back to school and become a
nurse? Or do I do somethingelse? Ironically, as I was
thinking about that, in the nextcouple of weeks, I was doing
(09:03):
knee replacement surgery with anorthopedic guy. And he said,
Hey, Dustin, we're going to do aknee replacement on a guy that
owns a funeral home. And heasked me if I knew anybody from
the OR that might be interestedin helping him out as he
recovers. And so I kind of tookthe ball there and ran with it.
Decided to go to mortuary schoolat Northampton Community
(09:27):
College, stayed with thatfuneral director through my
schooling, I did my yearinternship or apprenticeship
with him. And here I am 25 yearslater.
Chip Gruen (09:37):
So I'm always and we'll get into a little bit more
of that later. But I'm alwaysreally attentive before we get
too deep into this, about howyou choose to talk about what
you do. Because you never know,you know what language is is
permissible or offensive. And soI've already referred to what
(09:58):
you do as a business As anindustry, but at the same time,
like you serve a reallyimportant function in the lives
of people in their in their timeof need, so that there are ways
in which you operate almost. AndI don't know that you would even
say it this way, but almost asa, as a quasi religious space,
right, this place of work. So sohow do you deal with those on
(10:22):
the one hand sort of providingthe service? On the other hand,
you know, is it is it impoliteto talk about this as a business
or as an industry?
Dustin Grim (10:31):
I don't think so. I mean, we certainly, lots of
factors play into to what we do.
And certainly there is abusiness side of, you need to
generate funding to continue tooperate as a business. I think
that our industry calls it acalling, which is something that
probably ties into the religiousaspect of, of, you know, what we
(10:54):
do and caring for people, lotsof folks get into this
profession without anyexperience and have no idea what
they're doing and they last sixmonths. And I think those of us
who make this a career, youknow, have that special calling
(11:14):
to deal with the with people andalways at the worst times that
they're calling upon us to helpthem out.
Chip Gruen (11:23):
So what would you say? I mean, so obviously,
there's a course of study you'vementioned, mortuary school, but
this calling, what are some ofthe aspects, right? What are
some of the things like whatdoes your day look like? And I'm
sure it's varied, right, fromthe physical to the, to the
supportive, like what is therange of things that you do as a
(11:45):
funeral director?
Dustin Grim (11:46):
So for me, I kind of run the gamut of everything
from I will say, I'm the chiefcook and bottle washer. It can
be from answering the phone,it's administrative things. It
is meeting families to arrangefor funerals, it is running
funerals, it's embalming. It'sdressing it can be restorative
artwork, it can be cleaning thetoilets, kind of run the gamut
(12:07):
of of everything there does nothappen all the time. In all
funeral homes. I'm a reasonablysmall funeral home compared to
the rest of the country. Here inPennsylvania, we have lots and
lots of funeral homes, comparedto the rest of the country. Some
other states have large funeralhomes that are handling 5000
(12:29):
plus families a year with deathsthat that they've they've
experienced. I'm about 200 callsa year, somewhere between 180
and 200 calls 210 calls a year,deaths that we are handling, so
can be different with differentfuneral homes.
Chip Gruen (12:48):
So as you've mentioned, you've been a funeral
director in the Lehigh Valley.
So in Emmaus, Pennsylvania forthe last 25 years. Can you talk
a little bit about how yourexperience has changed over that
time? You know, nothing? Youknow, nothing stays the same.
Right? So particularly if we'regoing back 25 years, we're
(13:09):
talking about what '99 turn ofthe millennium to now, how would
you describe, you know, the theway that you operated then
versus the way that you operatenow, and what's demanded of you?
Dustin Grim (13:22):
Certainly times have changed, which does not, I
mean, which reflects in thefuneral business, as well. So,
when I started, probably 90% ofthe time, when we received a
death call, we were removing abody from wherever the death
occurred, we were coming back tothe funeral home, embalming that
(13:44):
body, and within a couple ofdays having a viewing whether it
was at the funeral home or at areligious place for the evening,
prior to a service, typically wewere, if it was at the funeral
home, we were going to a churchof some sort for the funeral
service the next day, and thebody would be buried in a church
(14:04):
cemetery. Typically the oneattached to the church. That is
all gone at this point in time,not that we don't continue to do
that. But that is definitely alesser percentage by leaps and
bounds of what we're doing. Nowwhen we receive a death call we
have no idea whether it's goingto be an embalming, whether it's
going to be a cremation, itcould be a donation to science,
(14:26):
there's all kinds of things thatare going on in the funeral
practice. And and so lots ofquestions now need to be asked
at the time of death as topreferences or wishes of the
deceased.
Chip Gruen (14:40):
Yeah, so those those questions, I'm curious, I could
see that running both ways.
Right. On the one hand, I couldsee you, you know, doing the
interview with the family andasking about the wishes of the
deceased or what the familyneeds or wants. I could also see
going the other way where peoplehadn't really considered this
and are asking you right aboutyou know, What standard
practices? Or how can you justtalk a little bit about, about
(15:02):
those conversations and abouthow they go. And I'll just sort
of parenthetically say, I'mreally interested. And I want to
talk more about this in the inthe way that people think about
the body and death that theymight not in their normal life,
but they're confronted with itnow, upon, you know, upon
unfortunate event.
Dustin Grim (15:25):
Yeah, so there's, there's lots of questions that
that come up in, in thoseconversations. So, again, to go
back, you know, with, with allthe options that are out there
many times, especially peoplewho have not thought about
death, or there is a suddendeath and have no idea what the
wishes are of the deceased, kindof want to explore those things.
(15:46):
And there are times where ourarrangements are pushed back.
Typically, in in the traditionalsetting, we would, the following
day, after a death, we wouldmeet with a family, typically,
first thing in the morning, geteverything prepared, put an
obituary together, and movealong with with services
accordingly. Now, there's timeswhere we're waiting three, four
(16:09):
or five days, sometimes a week,or people want time to think
about what options they have,maybe explore those options, do
a little research and, you know,come back to us then. And with
maybe more questions or or saywe're going to go forward with
with our decision to do whateverthat decision would would be.
(16:30):
Certainly have had to reeducate, re educate ourselves in
all of those options that areout there. There are things that
have come up since I went toschool. And so there there are,
we have to make sure we're alsofollowing state laws and rules
and regulations regardingcertain forms of disposition.
Chip Gruen (16:51):
Yeah. So as I was, and just sort of transparency,
I've been wanting to have aconversation like this for at
least six months, maybe a year,because I find it is where the
rubber hits the road for a lotof people and thinking about
what happens after after death,among other things. And as I've
talked to people about this, youknow, that we can think about
(17:15):
some of those options you'retalking about. So there's
inhumation, is at least I don'tknow, if that's how you all
refer to burial. And thenthere's cremation. But then
people are increasingly wantingto talk about other factors,
right? Like whether it be greenfunerals that are more
environmentally friendly, orwhether it be, you know, the
(17:36):
economics of, you know, of thechoices that are being made or
space concerns about, you know,whether one takes up space in a
in a, you know, obviously acremation leads to a smaller
remains than wood burial. AndI'm, again, I'm just going to
editorialize, from myperspective, I look at these
(17:56):
things like cremation versusburial. And I think, oh, gosh,
that's got a lot to do with yourways of understanding what the
body is and what death is and doyou need your body? But then
when I talk to people aboutthis, a lot of times they'll
say, Oh, well, this is this isabout economics, right? Or this
is about environmentalism orthis is about sustainability. I
mean, what is the tenor of thoseconversations when you're having
(18:18):
them?
Dustin Grim (18:20):
So they're all over the place. Just to be honest, so
I like to educate people and saythat burial cremation I mean,
cremation is just an option ofwhat happens to the body at the
end of a funerary practice orwhat we do so many times, people
do not understand that you canhave a viewing in a funeral
(18:40):
followed by cremation, you canhave a cremation followed by a
service, you can I mean, there'sall kinds of things that are out
there. Once the body iscremated, then that opens up the
door to a lot of of options. Soyou know, certainly in ground
burial, niche burial, burial atsea, all those things are
(19:01):
options after a body iscremated. But then there's also
composting things that are outthere for cremated remains as
well as as whole bodycomposting, there's options to
shoot a portion of crematedremains into outer space,
there's pretty much anything youcan think of. There's a company
out there that is, is promotingthose those ideas. So there is a
(19:25):
ton of of options out there oncea body is cremated. And what do
you do with those crematedremains? Certainly, people take
them home and keep them at home,which we're going to see in the
next probably 10 to 15 years, atleast in my opinion. That's
going to be a problem whenfamilies lose the last last
(19:46):
family member in a generationand what happens to those
cremated remains. And and sothere's a lot of a lot of things
out there that I think hurdlesif you will that we're going to
have to overcome in the next 10to 15 years.
Chip Gruen (20:01):
Interesting. And it's interesting you say the
next 10 to 15. I've been lookinga little bit at statistics on
what the National FuneralDirectors Association and some
other organizations and gettingsome statistics on this, and I
think it's and again, justoccupational hazard. This is
something I've actually beenwatching for the past 15 years
(20:23):
or so is the number ofdispositions, as you call I've
got a new new piece ofvocabulary, the number of
dispositions that are cremation,rather than burial. And that
that number for as long as wehave statistics has gone up
every single year from the 19th,late 19th century. So that now,
(20:44):
in the mid 1960s, it was up to5%. Today, according to the
National Funeral DirectorsAssociation, it's 60.5% in 2023,
and they anticipate it being upto 80% by 2045. And just again,
as an aside, I write a littlebit about about funerary
(21:07):
practice in late antiquity inthe Roman Empire, the Roman
catacombs. And it's interestingto note that the dominant
Western practice is cremationuntil about the second century.
And then it shifts andarchaeologists and ancient
historians don't really know howto talk about that shift other
than they say things like, well,it's sort of the change in the
(21:29):
fashion. But anyway, what'sinteresting about that is that
we have the shift to whole bodyburial in the second century,
that has only been reversed inthe last 50 years. And I just
find that to be superinteresting. Right. So I mean,
obviously, this has affected theSchantz Funeral Home, in what
you do, but but can you can youjust talk about? I mean, I don't
(21:53):
even know, I think it's how dofamilies come to those
decisions? I mean, is it just amatter of personal choice? Or
how do you see people'sgrappling with this question
about how how to dispose thebody?
Dustin Grim (22:11):
Yeah, I'm not sure that I have those answers,
either. You know, historically,families have traditionally
buried, bury their loved ones.
And there, there seems to bethat again, well, I know there
is that shift of, of dynamic. SoI'm seeing in pre arrangements,
families that we have buried,buried, buried, and all of a
(22:31):
sudden, husband wife comes inand says to me, Dustin, we don't
want to put our family throughthrough that. So we're just
going to be cremated. And Idon't know or don't have the
answers to why or what made themyou know, choose cremation
versus earth burial. We are ina, what they consider a fairly
(22:52):
traditional area here, wheretypically we're getting services
involved with, with a cremation,whether it is a viewing and a
funeral, followed by cremation,or memorial service, celebration
of life, whatever you want tocall that. And we're still
burying probably 80% of the urnsin the ground or in a niche
space. And I think that'simportant to at least our folks
(23:13):
here in our area, I mean,different areas certainly have
different different dynamics andbeliefs and those kinds of
things. I think some of it beganas the or the the trend towards
cremation began as a monetarything, or an economic thing.
And, and certainly as, as ayounger funeral director
(23:35):
compared to the old folks, whenit was five or 10% of your
business. And again, going backto kind of the first question is
we still have a business to, tooperate, it didn't really
matter. So, you know, 10% ofyour business is cremation. And
so you say, Oh, it's $700. Andthat's what it is. And I believe
many times or the stories thatI've heard over the years is,
(23:57):
is, at least for our area,cremation was one of those
things, if somebody might havebeen in jail might have been the
black sheep of the family,whether it was mental health
concerns, whether it wasalcoholism, or whatever it was
where they said, Oh, we're justgoing to cremate him or her. And
that was it. No service, nonothing. And that was a way if
(24:20):
you will, just to sweep thoseproblems underneath the rug.
Certainly not the case intoday's world, you know, people
are choosing cremation for lotsand lots of reasons. You know,
there is that green factor orenvironmental friendly, which I
would would caution to say thatthat is a terrible decision. If
(24:40):
you're looking at cremation as agreen burial option. I've had
many many discussions in inadult Sunday school classes,
senior groups about about thatand, you know, that can be for
another topic.
Chip Gruen (25:00):
Because of the fuel and...
Dustin Grim (25:02):
Yeah, so if you're looking at if you're defining
green as the amount ofhydrocarbons that are, are used
to dispose of a human body 100%cremation far exceeds anything
else that we're doing and, andagain, that that can be a whole
whole other whole otherdiscussion. They also, the
funeral business, at least in myopinion has has done really well
(25:25):
at marketing those things. Sogreen and and, you know, earth
friendly and planting a tree, orflower bed or something with
cremated remains has become abig thing that's coming up. And
scientifically, cremated remainsare chemically inert. So there
is nothing growing from yourloved ones cremated remains, I
(25:49):
say to people, here's what thescientific evidence is. If if
your belief is that that isgoing to help you move forward
in the grief process, do whatyou have to do, plant a tree and
call it you know, whatever youwant to call it. But, you know,
those are the those are some ofthe things that that are going
on with cremation.
Chip Gruen (26:10):
So speaking of grief, so this is like personal
experience story, but but hereat the college, among the other
classes I teach is Christiantraditions. And I remember I was
doing an evening college classin Christian traditions where we
have non traditional students,adults. And one one of my
students came in one night andshe was just distraught. And she
(26:33):
was just so upset, likeoutwardly emotively upset. And
she wanted to talk to me, notthat it's a part of our class,
but she outed herself to me as aChristian. And she had a friend
who had just died. And it wasn'tthat she was upset. I mean, she
was upset about the death. Butwhat really made her upset was
that her family had had crematedthe body. And she was just like,
(27:00):
like I say, just beside herselfin wanting to talk to me about
well, it's Christian doctrine,that there's a resurrection of
the body, like, what does thismean? Like? Is she, you know, on
the last day, you know, is therenothing to be resurrected? And
and what I answered her and howI dealt with this is sort of
(27:20):
inconsequential, but I thoughtthat the, you know, that
reaction, right, and howviscerally she felt that
traditional Christian belief andpractice is having real
consequences for the future. Imean, do you get do you get
that? I mean, do you get peoplewho come in and say, no, no, we
need to inhumate the body weneed to, we need a burial
(27:42):
because of the last day? Or isthat? Is that not the kind of
thing that comes up with you?
Dustin Grim (27:47):
No, definitely, definitely. I mean, and again,
depends on religious beliefs.
And, and certainly, there aresome religions that that will
tell you that you will not beresurrected unless your entire
body is buried in the ground.
And ironically, the the, and I'mgoing to call out the Catholic
Church. I mean, and when we talkabout cremation, one of the big
(28:07):
things with the Catholic Churchis when they recognized
cremation as an approved form ofdisposition, I think it really
changed the, the the funeralbusiness. So..
Chip Gruen (28:18):
And when was that?
Dustin Grim (28:20):
I'm gonna say it was the, the late 80s, early
90s. And they still havepreferences, if you will, they,
you know, you do not have to dothis, but they prefer that the
body is present for the mass inthe church and then be cremated
and then be buried in in whatthey consider sacred ground. You
know, so, again, move going backto my earlier days, we never or
(28:43):
shouldn't say never, but rarelycremated anybody that was of the
Catholic faith, I'm probably 60%now of the Catholics that that,
that we buried are cremated. Soyes, I mean, I think it's a
religious, religious belief. AndI think some of the older, more
conservative religions have thatbelief of the body needs to be
(29:04):
there for resurrection. In thesame sense, there's other
religions that that, you know,don't have a care as to, to if
your body is whole and intactin, you know, buried in the
ground or if you're cremated.
Chip Gruen (29:17):
Yeah, it's interesting. I remember watching
news coverage of an I don'tremember who it was, was it
maybe when Gerald Ford died oryou know, but the body lies?
Well, I'm even doing it myself.
Right. It said the body lies instate. And I remember flipping
between news coverage. Andagain, I pay attention to these
things because of who I am. Butsome of the coverage would say
(29:39):
the body of the former presidentis in the capitol rotunda and
some people would say, GeraldFord is in the capitol rotunda
and the difference between like,the person being the body, right
versus the body being right thethe material remains, but that
(30:00):
that person is, you know, theirspirit is gone, their soul is
gone. It's just reallyinteresting right to think about
shifting attitudes towards thatover time. So I think about
that, that the late 19thcentury, when cremation starts
to just in the very beginningstart to inch up, is when we get
the spiritualist movementemerging in the United States,
(30:22):
right, the idea of the notwaiting around for a
resurrection of the body, butthe idea that there's immortal
soul, right, that is sort ofcontinuous. And so it's it's
interesting to think about theimplications, what, you know,
maybe whether people arethinking about it or not for
what you're saying about therelationship between yourself
and your body? There's notreally a question there. But,
(30:45):
but this is kind of the way, youknow, the way that I'm thinking
about this when I think about,like, belief or practice of
people and how they operate inthe world.
Dustin Grim (30:54):
Right, right. Yeah.
And it's hard on on our end, asfuneral directors to answer
those questions for the familythat you're in front of, you
know, I think to educatesomebody that does not know or,
or does not have a, an idea ofwhat their loved one wanted,
didn't want, and maybe does nothave any sort of religious
(31:16):
beliefs, it makes it difficultto steer them or guide them in
the right direction, and what'sgoing to be best for them in the
coming weeks, days, months,years ahead for grief, you know,
and at least from myperspective, I look at it from
that, that perspective. So as areligious standpoint, if you
(31:36):
have some belief in inresurrection, then there's hope
that there'll be something more.
And we're not just disposing ofa dead human body, in the ground
with nothing more to come. Andso certainly, things that I'm
seeing is when somebody dies,and family chooses to cremate
(32:01):
somebody not put an obituary inthe paper, not have a service,
not bury not do anything. Andnot not everybody, but I do get
these people who call me andsay, Dustin, why did I do this?
Because now I have to every timeI'm at the grocery store, what
happened to your husband, orwhat happened to your wife,
every time I'm at a publicfunction, and people don't know.
(32:23):
And so it's kind of opening upthat can of retelling the story
and restarting the grief processover and over again. So I mean,
as a funeral director, Icertainly feel strongly that
some sort of service and it canbe, it doesn't have to be a, you
know, a night viewing a funeralin a church, a burial at a
(32:45):
cemetery, but some some way tohonor and celebrate somebody's
life, I think is super, superimportant, especially for the
beginnings of of grief, and tobe able to publicly share, share
that with friends and lovedones.
Chip Gruen (33:00):
Yeah. And it's it's interesting, the way you talk
about on the one hand, grief ispersonal and private. Right. On
the other hand, you'redescribing a social function is
what how we would describe it,right? That, that it's important
that there's kind of a publicrecognition of the passing of an
individual, for practical aswell as personal reasons. Yeah,
(33:22):
it's interesting to think about,and I wonder, you know, thinking
about, you know, you helpingpeople through this process, it
seems to me, like your role, ifanything, will have gotten more
important and more instrumental,as the number of people without
formal religious affiliation hasgone up, right, that the so
(33:42):
called "nones" that we're alwaystalking about, right, because
they don't have necessarilyreligious leaders that they can
point to, to talk, talk throughthese things.
Dustin Grim (33:51):
Yeah, definitely.
You know, and it is, we're in aposition right now, where we
don't have a whole lot ofoptions to turn to, you know,
the those who choose to cremateand have a celebration of life
at a park or at a social hall orwherever it is that that they're
doing that celebration. How doyou, you know, without a formal
religious service, if you will,who will emcee? I don't know if
(34:14):
that's the right terminology,but who will emcee that and, and
make it go off as as seamless asa traditional religious service
will be. And it's beenproblematic. There there's been
a celebrant movement that's beenstarted by the National Funeral
Directors Association, wherethere is lay people who can take
(34:36):
training classes to celebrateand honor somebody's life
without any kind of religiousundertones that was started out
in in on the west coast, wherethe cremation rate is certainly
much higher than it is in someother places. And, and basically
a way to say the deceased lifemattered, whether they have
(35:00):
religious beliefs or not. And sowe need to celebrate that. As
far as I know, locally, there isnot, not very many of them that
that are out there, there aresome funeral directors who have
taken the celebrant course, tobe able to offer that to their
families, it is not somethingthat I have done it at this
point.
Chip Gruen (35:19):
That's interesting, because it makes me think of the
ways that one can license withthe state to be an officiant at
a wedding, for example. Soyou'll have a family friend who
will go and get the paperwork sothat they can be the state
representative for lack of abetter word at a wedding, which
is also public, right, that hasthose sorts of functions. So
(35:41):
it's interesting to see ifthere's a that, that there is a
movement that is sort of takinga similar position at this other
really important life deathevent as well. So and I told
you, I've been thinking aboutthis conversation for a long
time. And one of the reasons andwe talked a little bit about
this, I know there are thingsyou can say, and you can't say
(36:02):
about this, but when I wasdriving past a local funeral
home, it wasn't Schantz, butwith a different funeral home,
and they had a marquee outside,and it said all faiths,
religious traditions, welcome.
And I read that and I was like,okay, that's really interesting.
I want to know, I mean, whatdoes that mean? Does that mean
that they're just open toserving lots of different kinds
(36:24):
of people? Or does that meanthat they have ritual expertise
that can help them help, say,Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim, or
Jewish people who need theirservices? So what I mean, given
that on the one hand, we'vetalked a lot about sort of
rising, the "nones" and thepeople without religious
(36:48):
affiliation, but then our worldis increasingly diverse with
people of different religioustraditions as well. How has that
affected your industry? How doyou deal with that? I know,
we've talked a little bit aboutthe segmentation of the funeral
home business itself as well.
Dustin Grim (37:06):
Yeah, so different religious organizations have
different rituals, if you will,for funeral practices. So there
are some some funeral homes orsome religious groups that
particularly use a specificfuneral home, for example, the
people of the Jewish faithtypically go to the same funeral
(37:27):
home and they have theirritualistic things that they do.
And people specialize or funeralhomes specialize in those kinds
of things. And then there'sothers that, you know, we need
to learn as funeral directors aswe move forward with, again, as
you mentioned, the, thediversity of the Lehigh Valley
here is certainly growing. Andso as a funeral director, going
(37:48):
back to your statement, servingall faiths, or all faiths are
welcome. You have to kind oflearn as as you go, I believe
the example that that I hadshared with you was I had a
Buddhist family that thatcontacted me, and asked if I did
Buddhists, if I had doneBuddhist funerals prior. And I
said, No, but I'm willing tohelp you if you're willing to
help me. And so it wasdefinitely a learning
(38:09):
experience. And, you know, tryto to make sure you're following
their wishes and traditions oftheir faith in order to appease
the family and do what what isright by the deceased. I'm
pretty sure there's probablyfuneral homes out there that
that would say, we don't want todo that. And kind of stick to
(38:30):
the main mainstream, and this iswhat we do. And this is what
we're good at. And we're notwilling to learn. And I think,
again, moving forward for thefuture of funeral services, we
need to grasp the idea of it'sokay to, to think outside the
box and, and it's okay to learnsomething different. And, and be
able to help families of otherother religious beliefs. I do
(38:56):
know and can share a friend ofmine, they serve the Mennonite
population, and recentlycontacted by a Muslim
organization that was wascreating a cemetery and asked,
Could they and would they bewilling to work with the Muslim
population because of the, thelocation of the funeral home to
the cemetery? And so they didsome research and did some
(39:18):
training classes and they arenow serving the Muslim
population in that that specificarea, totally different, again,
from from the traditionalMennonite services, but
certainly something that thatthey've embraced and are now you
know, serving the Muslimpopulation as well.
Chip Gruen (39:38):
Interesting. So from to go back for a second from
your own experience, you sayyou, you know, have been
approached by Buddhistpractitioners and they came and
you, you said, Sure, I'm willingto learn let's Can you remember
any of the specific things thatwould have made that different
(39:58):
that that would have called onyou to adapt to doing or saying
things differently than youwould in what would be a more I
mean sort of standard service orstandard services that you
offer?
Dustin Grim (40:13):
Yeah. So, so, definitely with with the
Buddhist service, I knew goinginto it that just from a general
religion class that the bodywould be cremated, not embalmed,
I had really had no expectationor idea of of what else that
that involved and so, it was athey they dress the body in
traditional clothes, they had apublic viewing unembalmed, which
(40:37):
is something that is certainlylegal. And then the following
day kind of as as dressed as asyou and I are today, in in
Americanized clothes thefollowing day, there was a
Buddhist priest that came or amonk they were then dressed in,
in traditional traditionalclothing. There was music that
(40:58):
was played and they hadceremonial things of tea and and
little bits of food. And theybelieve the things that were
placed into the cremationcontainer were things that were
needed for the afterlife, andwere to be cremated with their
loved one. They also then go tothe crematory and do a ceremony
(41:19):
at the crematory. Following thecremation, their cremated
remains go to a Buddhist temple.
And I don't know the number ofdays that they remained in the
Buddhist temple. And the theidea was that their soul leaves
their cremated remains and theircremated remains thaen are
placed in in water of some sort.
Chip Gruen (41:39):
Interesting, and you mentioned just you know, the
unembalmed viewing, which youparenthetically said which is
certainly legal. So youobviously have a relationship
with the state, right aboutwhat's legal and what's not. I
mean, how restrictive is thestate and, you know, for
(42:00):
whatever it be public healthreasons or what have you. I
mean, do you see any bumping upagainst the wishes of families
versus state things are thosepretty minimal?
Dustin Grim (42:12):
Pretty minimal. I mean, there certainly are rules
and regulations laws that weneed to follow for at least
public viewing and non embalmedbody. I mean, there there is, or
the laws were created, that itkind of is is available for
those religious organizations toto do their rites and rituals
without having to break the law,if you will, you know, certainly
(42:37):
there's been a number of thingsCOVID being one of them, where a
lot of the rules regulationshave, were gotten rid of for a
period of time. And we're nowback in, in normal operating
procedures. I mean, one of thebig things that COVID has, has
shown to the world is at leastin my eyes, as a funeral
(42:59):
director is, is one of the mostimportant things that we do as
funeral directors is to protectour communities, from the spread
of contagious diseases, from thedead to the living. And, and
probably not something that wasthought of much before COVID.
And certainly, there wererestrictions placed on us as to
(43:22):
do you embalm, do you notembalm? You know, and obviously
those things have changed. But,again, I think that it was a
good eye opener that we asfuneral directors are protecting
our communities from, publichealth is number one, is what we
do.
Chip Gruen (43:38):
It's just so interesting to think about all
of the different places that youyou know, there is the social
function, we talked about thepsychological function, the
public health function, thereligious and you know,
doctrinal, practical function.
It just, it's just reallyinteresting to see the
confluences of all of thosepieces of who we are, as humans
(43:59):
sort of coming together at thissort of moment of immediacy that
we have upon the death, youknow, the death of a loved one.
So just one more note on that,about the diversity of religious
belief and practice and, and youknow, as people who may have
been in the United States, Imean, fourth or fifth fifth
(44:22):
generation and my wife's familyis uncountable generations 10 or
12. But these first and secondgeneration, people from around
the world from from variousplaces can be more traditional
in some ways are often moretraditional in some ways. And so
it's interesting to see how theexpectations or it will be
(44:42):
interesting to see how thoseexpectations over the course of
the next next generation go andthe only other thing I would say
about that is that we have a lotof immigrant communities from
places that might be Muslim orHindu or Buddhist where there is
less of an elderly population inthe United States, they're just
(45:04):
because of immigration lawchanges that have happened or
who emigrates. And I reallywonder, you know, going forward
in the next generation, how muchthe services of funeral homes
will be called on more and moreto adapt as those populations
age, you know, just just becauseof, of life cycles. Now, this
(45:25):
coincided with, with immigrantcommunities.
Dustin Grim (45:31):
Yeah, I think definitely. I mean, from my
perspective, if if you haven'tgrasped that, and you're turning
your head and sending them tothe, with the funeral home down
the street, I think you'relosing something there. You
know, as your you said, thepopulation again, for those
specific groups of people areyounger, and certainly will, you
(45:53):
know, as they're here and, andgrowing families and they age,
you know, are their traditionsgoing to change? Maybe? Are they
going to become moreAmericanized? Maybe, but I still
think it's good to understandthe traditional practices of, of
their beliefs.
Chip Gruen (46:13):
Yeah, I would, I would argue that even if there,
if some of those practices sortof start to conform more with,
you know, as, as the generationsroll on, I would guess that
funeral practice, marriagepractice, birth rituals will be
some of the things that we'llhold on the longest, right?
Because the immediacy of it.
Alright, so one thing that Ialways like to finish on is,
(46:35):
what am I leaving out? Right?
What are what is the thing thatwe haven't talked about?
Because, you know, I am not, youknow, knee deep in, in the
funeral industry? Is thereanything that you know, that you
think is really important thatour listeners should know, about
the way that, you know, the workof a funeral director or the
(46:59):
work of a funeral home and howthat interacts with, you know,
with individuals and familiesand their needs? I mean, what
what am I not seeing here?
Dustin Grim (47:08):
Can I go back to one thing?
Chip Gruen (47:09):
Yeah.
Dustin Grim (47:10):
So one of the things that we talked about
cremation and and the the riseof the cremation rate, and kind
of talked a little bit aboutthat celebrant movement,
ironically, is, is there'sthere's certain pockets and
places throughout the country,where the cremation rate is much
higher, and they're certainlyplaces where they're much lower.
And I think from a religiousstandpoint, it is 100% hits the
(47:33):
nail on the head, the deepsouth, and certain areas where
their cremation rate is probablystill 10% or less is the more
traditional type. Religiousbeliefs. And I think, from
things that I've read andresearched, especially in the
deep south, is the, thetraditional African Americans do
(47:55):
not cremate. And I think thatthose areas, definitely
traditional areas, when you'retalking Northern California,
Oregon, Washington, some placesin northeast where people are
more environmentally friendlyand have different beliefs, if
you will, and or maybe no, noreligious beliefs is where the
(48:16):
the cremation rate hasdefinitely risen. And, and
specifically, the NationalFuneral Directors has targeted
Northern California, Washington,Oregon and the northeast, as as
those celebrant movement places.
So I think there is a directcorrelation between religious
beliefs and the cremation ratein those specific areas. You
know, here in Pennsylvania,we're kind of middle of the
(48:38):
road. And so, you know, and Ithink that's some of the reason
why we have not been able todraw that celebrant movement to
us at this point in time.
Chip Gruen (48:50):
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, we have
listeners from all over and wehaven't talked too much about
the Lehigh Valley. But theLehigh Valley is middle of the
road in lots of ways, right? Wehave this old Pennsylvania Dutch
tradition that is here, beenhere generations and
generations, but yet a fairlyhigh immigrant community. And we
are, you know, either we are apart of the ecosystem, the
(49:13):
liberal liberal northeast arecertainly within easy driving
distance of it, right, so thatyou can get all all kinds here.
And so it's interesting to seethat that's reflected also in
how you deal with the public aswell.
Dustin Grim (49:25):
And going back to to things that that may have
been left out. I think that, youknow, it's important, again, we
talked about throughout theprogram here of people that
don't have ideas of what theirloved ones wishes are. I am a
huge fan of and I know that afamily Sunday dinner is not the
time to probably people to talkabout funerals and what their
(49:46):
wishes and those kinds of thingsare. I'm a huge fan of talking
about those things, and gettingplans in order. At least locally
here lots of folks and I'll usethe Pennsylvania Dutch
tradition. they'll say to me,well, Dustin, I don't want to
give you any my money. And Isaid, I don't want your money.
You know, but I want your wishesin writing. So I think it's
(50:08):
important to talk about thosethings, especially, especially
those that are going to be thatare outside of the norm, if you
will, of a church funeral, aburial, a casketed burial, you
know, where a service might beheld? Or what what types of
things that people are lookingfor, to be able to, to honor and
(50:28):
celebrate somebody's life? Thoseare the big hurdles that I'm
seeing now of, you know, wheredo you do it? How do you put it
together? Who do you want tospeak? You know, what do you
want it to look like? What doyou want people to remember you
as those kinds of things, Ithink are super important. How
you get people to talk aboutthat. I'm never sure. You know,
I do talk to lots of churchgroups, I talk to senior groups,
(50:52):
I talk to whoever wants tolisten to a talk about pre
arrangements, and getting yourwishes in writing. And I think
that's super, super important.
The payment portion, that's foranother time, and, you know,
doesn't need to be discussedhere. But I think having your
wishes available to your family,and have them know where those
wishes are, is is superimportant. I also think that
(51:15):
that we're gonna see a hugechange in Pennsylvania, at least
for the funeral business as thecremation rate rises and
continues to rise. There aresmall funeral homes that are
gonna go out of business.
There's just no way businesswise that somebody who's who's
servicing 40 families, and isdoing the projection to 80%
(51:38):
cremation that economically theycannot keep their doors open. So
I think we're gonna see a bigshift in the number of funeral
funeral homes. Not so much herein the valley. But I mean, there
are going to be some that aregoing to close their doors. But
when you get up into SchuylkillCounty, and and up northern
northern areas where there's,you know, a third generation
(52:01):
family that's doing it, and Idon't like to use the word
hobby, but as a hobby and has afull time career doing something
else. I think we're gonna seethose those places close over
time. And and, you know, it'sit's going to be the the way
it's going to be.
Chip Gruen (52:18):
Yeah, yeah, well, the only constant is change.
Right?
Dustin Grim (52:21):
Correct.
Chip Gruen (52:22):
So we'll see that...
Dustin Grim (52:23):
Correct.
Chip Gruen (52:24):
Well, Dustin Grim, thank you so much for coming.
This has been a super enjoyableconversation and enlightening. I
really appreciate it.
Dustin Grim (52:30):
Thank you.
Chip Gruen (52:33):
This has been ReligionWise a podcast produced
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(52:53):
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We look forward to seeing younext time.
Welcome to ReligionWise. I'm your host Chip
Gruen. So if you're a longtimelistener of the podcast, you'll
know the goals are to talk aboutthe ways in which the public
conversation on religionhappens. And that can happen in
a number of ways. I mean, wedeal a lot with education, of
course, sometimes we deal withmore abstract ideas, like the
(00:26):
philosophy of religion orphilosophy of spirituality. So
we talk to scholars, and we alsotalk to people who are more
broadly influential on the waywe think about religion within,
again, the public square, notjust in academia, but in the
world we all inhabit. Today'sepisode, I think gets directly
(00:50):
at that question, and maybe inways that you won't expect. So
we sit down today with DustinGrim funeral director at Schantz
Funeral Home, here in the LehighValley. And I've really wanted
to have this conversation for along time. Because it seems to
me that when we're thinkingabout what some people might
(01:13):
call questions of ultimateconcern, or the big questions,
we might say more colloquially,what does it mean to be human?
What's the meaning of life? Whathappens after we die? I think
it's possible to skirt thosequestions or not really
(01:34):
addressed those questions in ourdaily life, whether those be
family concerns, or workconcerns, there are ways in
which we can pay the bills, takethe kids to soccer practice what
have you, and not reallynecessarily confront those big
questions that really arepertinent to all of us. The
(02:01):
exception to that I think, arebig life events, that one might
be more introspective upon thebirth of the child, or a
wedding, or for today'sconversation, the death of a
loved one. And we might thinkabout dealing with death and
(02:21):
grief, of course, there arereligious leaders who offer
counseling and support to peoplewho are members of religious
communities, there are familymembers and friends, you know,
who people talk to you,obviously. But really, on the
front lines of this conversationare the people who are
responsible for disposition ofthe body. In the United States,
(02:46):
funeral homes and funeraldirectors have this place within
the way that we deal with death.
That is, that is interesting ina lot of ways. It's not
religious, per se. But it'squasi religious because it does
interact with people at times inwhich they are facing these big
questions. Likewise, I wouldcall it also a quasi public
(03:10):
space as well, because it's opento people to deal with, not in a
public way, not in agovernmental like policy kind of
way, but not wholly private,either, that these are
businesses that cater to publicneeds, and provide service for
(03:31):
the public in a way that is thattaps into and sort of confronts
those public perceptions andideas about those ultimate
concerns we talked aboutearlier. I think this is a
really interesting conversation,we deal with two major poles
(03:51):
that I'll have you listened for.
One is the shifts in thefunerary industry, from
inhumation, that is the burialof a body. To cremation, that is
the burning of the body, andthen the collection of the
(04:12):
ashes. This is a shift that hashappened gradually, until it was
all at once over the course ofthe last 100 years. And you'll
you'll hear some statistics inour conversation today. But
suffice it to say that we arenow in a majority cremation
society. And I think that thereare implications that we can
(04:34):
read into that shift. And somepeople, you know, might think,
Oh, this is an economic issue,or this is an ecological issue.
But I think it also makes youthink about how do we consider
our bodies? What do we think thehuman body is? Is it just a
vessel for something else? Is itan in identity in itself? Do we
(04:57):
need it? Traditional religiouspractice, particularly in the
West sort of insists on or hasinsisted traditionally, on the
resurrection of the body. And sowhen we see that shift from
inhumation or burial tocremation, we might think that
there are larger forces at work.
And Dustin, and I talk a littlebit about that. The other part
(05:19):
of this that's interesting isthat when we think about
religious identity in the UnitedStates today, whether that be
people who are less oftenaffiliated with a religious
institution, not as church goingnot members in communities, or
we talk about the increasingpluralism of religious belief
(05:42):
and practice the United Statesdue to immigration patterns, but
also other kinds of shifts inthe religious landscape. So how
does a funeral home deal withthat? How does this affect the
services they offer, whetherthose be private helping
individuals and families dealwith grief, or whether those be
(06:05):
public right helping with thesocial ceremonies and functions
of disposition of the body? SoI've gone on too long already.
But you can tell I'm reallyfascinated with this topic,
because of the immediacy, andthe universality of the issue
(06:30):
here, that this is somethingthat we all deal with, in
different ways, though, it getslargely funneled through this
funeral home business. And justbefore we get into the
conversation, one more smallnote, if you are in an industry
that is likewise adjacent toreligious belief and practice,
(06:55):
and you think, oh, gosh,actually, this rhymes a lot with
some of the questions andconcerns that we have, dealing
with an increasingly diversepublic or a public that is less
that identifies less withparticular religious identity,
by all means, reach out to us,we would love to have that
conversation. I think that thiskind of conversation is the one
(07:16):
that I think really willresonate with lots of people
because we have experiences likethe ones described today, in
which we are confronted withwith these big questions. So
without further ado, here's myconversation with Dustin Grim, I
hope you enjoy it. Dustin Grim,thanks for coming on
(07:38):
ReligionWise.
Dustin Grim (07:40):
Appreciate that, thank you.
Chip Gruen (07:41):
So before we get started and talking about your
experiences as a funeraldirector, I just wanted to start
with a little bit of personalbiography. How does one get in
to the to the business offunerals, like what led you to
this place vocationally?
Dustin Grim (07:58):
So I graduated high school started college at
Kutztown University pursuing adegree in biology. Two years
into that I decided I wasn'tsure college was for me,
happened that my next doorneighbor growing up was a head
nurse in the operating room atthe running hospital. And so she
encouraged me to come down thereand they were looking to fill
(08:20):
seats in a surgical technologyprogram there, which is nothing
more than assisting in andhanding instrumentation for
surgical procedures, decided to,to go through with that and
finished my schooling there,became a certified surgical
technologist, as part of thatdid lots of orthopedic work, and
(08:42):
got into transplantation andharvesting of organs and tissues
and those kinds of things. And,and also, eye enucleations, and
kind of got to a crossroad of doI go back to school and become a
nurse? Or do I do somethingelse? Ironically, as I was
thinking about that, in the nextcouple of weeks, I was doing
(09:03):
knee replacement surgery with anorthopedic guy. And he said,
Hey, Dustin, we're going to do aknee replacement on a guy that
owns a funeral home. And heasked me if I knew anybody from
the OR that might be interestedin helping him out as he
recovers. And so I kind of tookthe ball there and ran with it.
Decided to go to mortuary schoolat Northampton Community
(09:27):
College, stayed with thatfuneral director through my
schooling, I did my yearinternship or apprenticeship
with him. And here I am 25 yearslater.
Chip Gruen (09:37):
So I'm always and we'll get into a little bit more
of that later. But I'm alwaysreally attentive before we get
too deep into this, about howyou choose to talk about what
you do. Because you never know,you know what language is is
permissible or offensive. And soI've already referred to what
(09:58):
you do as a business As anindustry, but at the same time,
like you serve a reallyimportant function in the lives
of people in their in their timeof need, so that there are ways
in which you operate almost. AndI don't know that you would even
say it this way, but almost asa, as a quasi religious space,
right, this place of work. So sohow do you deal with those on
(10:22):
the one hand sort of providingthe service? On the other hand,
you know, is it is it impoliteto talk about this as a business
or as an industry?
Dustin Grim (10:31):
I don't think so. I mean, we certainly, lots of
factors play into to what we do.
And certainly there is abusiness side of, you need to
generate funding to continue tooperate as a business. I think
that our industry calls it acalling, which is something that
probably ties into the religiousaspect of, of, you know, what we
(10:54):
do and caring for people, lotsof folks get into this
profession without anyexperience and have no idea what
they're doing and they last sixmonths. And I think those of us
who make this a career, youknow, have that special calling
(11:14):
to deal with the with people andalways at the worst times that
they're calling upon us to helpthem out.
Chip Gruen (11:23):
So what would you say? I mean, so obviously,
there's a course of study you'vementioned, mortuary school, but
this calling, what are some ofthe aspects, right? What are
some of the things like whatdoes your day look like? And I'm
sure it's varied, right, fromthe physical to the, to the
supportive, like what is therange of things that you do as a
(11:45):
funeral director?
Dustin Grim (11:46):
So for me, I kind of run the gamut of everything
from I will say, I'm the chiefcook and bottle washer. It can
be from answering the phone,it's administrative things. It
is meeting families to arrangefor funerals, it is running
funerals, it's embalming. It'sdressing it can be restorative
artwork, it can be cleaning thetoilets, kind of run the gamut
(12:07):
of of everything there does nothappen all the time. In all
funeral homes. I'm a reasonablysmall funeral home compared to
the rest of the country. Here inPennsylvania, we have lots and
lots of funeral homes, comparedto the rest of the country. Some
other states have large funeralhomes that are handling 5000
(12:29):
plus families a year with deathsthat that they've they've
experienced. I'm about 200 callsa year, somewhere between 180
and 200 calls 210 calls a year,deaths that we are handling, so
can be different with differentfuneral homes.
Chip Gruen (12:48):
So as you've mentioned, you've been a funeral
director in the Lehigh Valley.
So in Emmaus, Pennsylvania forthe last 25 years. Can you talk
a little bit about how yourexperience has changed over that
time? You know, nothing? Youknow, nothing stays the same.
Right? So particularly if we'regoing back 25 years, we're
(13:09):
talking about what '99 turn ofthe millennium to now, how would
you describe, you know, the theway that you operated then
versus the way that you operatenow, and what's demanded of you?
Dustin Grim (13:22):
Certainly times have changed, which does not, I
mean, which reflects in thefuneral business, as well. So,
when I started, probably 90% ofthe time, when we received a
death call, we were removing abody from wherever the death
occurred, we were coming back tothe funeral home, embalming that
(13:44):
body, and within a couple ofdays having a viewing whether it
was at the funeral home or at areligious place for the evening,
prior to a service, typically wewere, if it was at the funeral
home, we were going to a churchof some sort for the funeral
service the next day, and thebody would be buried in a church
(14:04):
cemetery. Typically the oneattached to the church. That is
all gone at this point in time,not that we don't continue to do
that. But that is definitely alesser percentage by leaps and
bounds of what we're doing. Nowwhen we receive a death call we
have no idea whether it's goingto be an embalming, whether it's
going to be a cremation, itcould be a donation to science,
(14:26):
there's all kinds of things thatare going on in the funeral
practice. And and so lots ofquestions now need to be asked
at the time of death as topreferences or wishes of the
deceased.
Chip Gruen (14:40):
Yeah, so those those questions, I'm curious, I could
see that running both ways.
Right. On the one hand, I couldsee you, you know, doing the
interview with the family andasking about the wishes of the
deceased or what the familyneeds or wants. I could also see
going the other way where peoplehadn't really considered this
and are asking you right aboutyou know, What standard
practices? Or how can you justtalk a little bit about, about
(15:02):
those conversations and abouthow they go. And I'll just sort
of parenthetically say, I'mreally interested. And I want to
talk more about this in the inthe way that people think about
the body and death that theymight not in their normal life,
but they're confronted with itnow, upon, you know, upon
unfortunate event.
Dustin Grim (15:25):
Yeah, so there's, there's lots of questions that
that come up in, in thoseconversations. So, again, to go
back, you know, with, with allthe options that are out there
many times, especially peoplewho have not thought about
death, or there is a suddendeath and have no idea what the
wishes are of the deceased, kindof want to explore those things.
(15:46):
And there are times where ourarrangements are pushed back.
Typically, in in the traditionalsetting, we would, the following
day, after a death, we wouldmeet with a family, typically,
first thing in the morning, geteverything prepared, put an
obituary together, and movealong with with services
accordingly. Now, there's timeswhere we're waiting three, four
(16:09):
or five days, sometimes a week,or people want time to think
about what options they have,maybe explore those options, do
a little research and, you know,come back to us then. And with
maybe more questions or or saywe're going to go forward with
with our decision to do whateverthat decision would would be.
(16:30):
Certainly have had to reeducate, re educate ourselves in
all of those options that areout there. There are things that
have come up since I went toschool. And so there there are,
we have to make sure we're alsofollowing state laws and rules
and regulations regardingcertain forms of disposition.
Chip Gruen (16:51):
Yeah. So as I was, and just sort of transparency,
I've been wanting to have aconversation like this for at
least six months, maybe a year,because I find it is where the
rubber hits the road for a lotof people and thinking about
what happens after after death,among other things. And as I've
talked to people about this, youknow, that we can think about
(17:15):
some of those options you'retalking about. So there's
inhumation, is at least I don'tknow, if that's how you all
refer to burial. And thenthere's cremation. But then
people are increasingly wantingto talk about other factors,
right? Like whether it be greenfunerals that are more
environmentally friendly, orwhether it be, you know, the
(17:36):
economics of, you know, of thechoices that are being made or
space concerns about, you know,whether one takes up space in a
in a, you know, obviously acremation leads to a smaller
remains than wood burial. AndI'm, again, I'm just going to
editorialize, from myperspective, I look at these
(17:56):
things like cremation versusburial. And I think, oh, gosh,
that's got a lot to do with yourways of understanding what the
body is and what death is and doyou need your body? But then
when I talk to people aboutthis, a lot of times they'll
say, Oh, well, this is this isabout economics, right? Or this
is about environmentalism orthis is about sustainability. I
mean, what is the tenor of thoseconversations when you're having
(18:18):
them?
Dustin Grim (18:20):
So they're all over the place. Just to be honest, so
I like to educate people and saythat burial cremation I mean,
cremation is just an option ofwhat happens to the body at the
end of a funerary practice orwhat we do so many times, people
do not understand that you canhave a viewing in a funeral
(18:40):
followed by cremation, you canhave a cremation followed by a
service, you can I mean, there'sall kinds of things that are out
there. Once the body iscremated, then that opens up the
door to a lot of of options. Soyou know, certainly in ground
burial, niche burial, burial atsea, all those things are
(19:01):
options after a body iscremated. But then there's also
composting things that are outthere for cremated remains as
well as as whole bodycomposting, there's options to
shoot a portion of crematedremains into outer space,
there's pretty much anything youcan think of. There's a company
out there that is, is promotingthose those ideas. So there is a
(19:25):
ton of of options out there oncea body is cremated. And what do
you do with those crematedremains? Certainly, people take
them home and keep them at home,which we're going to see in the
next probably 10 to 15 years, atleast in my opinion. That's
going to be a problem whenfamilies lose the last last
(19:46):
family member in a generationand what happens to those
cremated remains. And and sothere's a lot of a lot of things
out there that I think hurdlesif you will that we're going to
have to overcome in the next 10to 15 years.
Chip Gruen (20:01):
Interesting. And it's interesting you say the
next 10 to 15. I've been lookinga little bit at statistics on
what the National FuneralDirectors Association and some
other organizations and gettingsome statistics on this, and I
think it's and again, justoccupational hazard. This is
something I've actually beenwatching for the past 15 years
(20:23):
or so is the number ofdispositions, as you call I've
got a new new piece ofvocabulary, the number of
dispositions that are cremation,rather than burial. And that
that number for as long as wehave statistics has gone up
every single year from the 19th,late 19th century. So that now,
(20:44):
in the mid 1960s, it was up to5%. Today, according to the
National Funeral DirectorsAssociation, it's 60.5% in 2023,
and they anticipate it being upto 80% by 2045. And just again,
as an aside, I write a littlebit about about funerary
(21:07):
practice in late antiquity inthe Roman Empire, the Roman
catacombs. And it's interestingto note that the dominant
Western practice is cremationuntil about the second century.
And then it shifts andarchaeologists and ancient
historians don't really know howto talk about that shift other
than they say things like, well,it's sort of the change in the
(21:29):
fashion. But anyway, what'sinteresting about that is that
we have the shift to whole bodyburial in the second century,
that has only been reversed inthe last 50 years. And I just
find that to be superinteresting. Right. So I mean,
obviously, this has affected theSchantz Funeral Home, in what
you do, but but can you can youjust talk about? I mean, I don't
(21:53):
even know, I think it's how dofamilies come to those
decisions? I mean, is it just amatter of personal choice? Or
how do you see people'sgrappling with this question
about how how to dispose thebody?
Dustin Grim (22:11):
Yeah, I'm not sure that I have those answers,
either. You know, historically,families have traditionally
buried, bury their loved ones.
And there, there seems to bethat again, well, I know there
is that shift of, of dynamic. SoI'm seeing in pre arrangements,
families that we have buried,buried, buried, and all of a
(22:31):
sudden, husband wife comes inand says to me, Dustin, we don't
want to put our family throughthrough that. So we're just
going to be cremated. And Idon't know or don't have the
answers to why or what made themyou know, choose cremation
versus earth burial. We are ina, what they consider a fairly
(22:52):
traditional area here, wheretypically we're getting services
involved with, with a cremation,whether it is a viewing and a
funeral, followed by cremation,or memorial service, celebration
of life, whatever you want tocall that. And we're still
burying probably 80% of the urnsin the ground or in a niche
space. And I think that'simportant to at least our folks
(23:13):
here in our area, I mean,different areas certainly have
different different dynamics andbeliefs and those kinds of
things. I think some of it beganas the or the the trend towards
cremation began as a monetarything, or an economic thing.
And, and certainly as, as ayounger funeral director
(23:35):
compared to the old folks, whenit was five or 10% of your
business. And again, going backto kind of the first question is
we still have a business to, tooperate, it didn't really
matter. So, you know, 10% ofyour business is cremation. And
so you say, Oh, it's $700. Andthat's what it is. And I believe
many times or the stories thatI've heard over the years is,
(23:57):
is, at least for our area,cremation was one of those
things, if somebody might havebeen in jail might have been the
black sheep of the family,whether it was mental health
concerns, whether it wasalcoholism, or whatever it was
where they said, Oh, we're justgoing to cremate him or her. And
that was it. No service, nonothing. And that was a way if
(24:20):
you will, just to sweep thoseproblems underneath the rug.
Certainly not the case intoday's world, you know, people
are choosing cremation for lotsand lots of reasons. You know,
there is that green factor orenvironmental friendly, which I
would would caution to say thatthat is a terrible decision. If
(24:40):
you're looking at cremation as agreen burial option. I've had
many many discussions in inadult Sunday school classes,
senior groups about about thatand, you know, that can be for
another topic.
Chip Gruen (25:00):
Because of the fuel and...
Dustin Grim (25:02):
Yeah, so if you're looking at if you're defining
green as the amount ofhydrocarbons that are, are used
to dispose of a human body 100%cremation far exceeds anything
else that we're doing and, andagain, that that can be a whole
whole other whole otherdiscussion. They also, the
funeral business, at least in myopinion has has done really well
(25:25):
at marketing those things. Sogreen and and, you know, earth
friendly and planting a tree, orflower bed or something with
cremated remains has become abig thing that's coming up. And
scientifically, cremated remainsare chemically inert. So there
is nothing growing from yourloved ones cremated remains, I
(25:49):
say to people, here's what thescientific evidence is. If if
your belief is that that isgoing to help you move forward
in the grief process, do whatyou have to do, plant a tree and
call it you know, whatever youwant to call it. But, you know,
those are the those are some ofthe things that that are going
on with cremation.
Chip Gruen (26:10):
So speaking of grief, so this is like personal
experience story, but but hereat the college, among the other
classes I teach is Christiantraditions. And I remember I was
doing an evening college classin Christian traditions where we
have non traditional students,adults. And one one of my
students came in one night andshe was just distraught. And she
(26:33):
was just so upset, likeoutwardly emotively upset. And
she wanted to talk to me, notthat it's a part of our class,
but she outed herself to me as aChristian. And she had a friend
who had just died. And it wasn'tthat she was upset. I mean, she
was upset about the death. Butwhat really made her upset was
that her family had had crematedthe body. And she was just like,
(27:00):
like I say, just beside herselfin wanting to talk to me about
well, it's Christian doctrine,that there's a resurrection of
the body, like, what does thismean? Like? Is she, you know, on
the last day, you know, is therenothing to be resurrected? And
and what I answered her and howI dealt with this is sort of
(27:20):
inconsequential, but I thoughtthat the, you know, that
reaction, right, and howviscerally she felt that
traditional Christian belief andpractice is having real
consequences for the future. Imean, do you get do you get
that? I mean, do you get peoplewho come in and say, no, no, we
need to inhumate the body weneed to, we need a burial
(27:42):
because of the last day? Or isthat? Is that not the kind of
thing that comes up with you?
Dustin Grim (27:47):
No, definitely, definitely. I mean, and again,
depends on religious beliefs.
And, and certainly, there aresome religions that that will
tell you that you will not beresurrected unless your entire
body is buried in the ground.
And ironically, the the, and I'mgoing to call out the Catholic
Church. I mean, and when we talkabout cremation, one of the big
(28:07):
things with the Catholic Churchis when they recognized
cremation as an approved form ofdisposition, I think it really
changed the, the the funeralbusiness. So..
Chip Gruen (28:18):
And when was that?
Dustin Grim (28:20):
I'm gonna say it was the, the late 80s, early
90s. And they still havepreferences, if you will, they,
you know, you do not have to dothis, but they prefer that the
body is present for the mass inthe church and then be cremated
and then be buried in in whatthey consider sacred ground. You
know, so, again, move going backto my earlier days, we never or
(28:43):
shouldn't say never, but rarelycremated anybody that was of the
Catholic faith, I'm probably 60%now of the Catholics that that,
that we buried are cremated. Soyes, I mean, I think it's a
religious, religious belief. AndI think some of the older, more
conservative religions have thatbelief of the body needs to be
(29:04):
there for resurrection. In thesame sense, there's other
religions that that, you know,don't have a care as to, to if
your body is whole and intactin, you know, buried in the
ground or if you're cremated.
Chip Gruen (29:17):
Yeah, it's interesting. I remember watching
news coverage of an I don'tremember who it was, was it
maybe when Gerald Ford died oryou know, but the body lies?
Well, I'm even doing it myself.
Right. It said the body lies instate. And I remember flipping
between news coverage. Andagain, I pay attention to these
things because of who I am. Butsome of the coverage would say
(29:39):
the body of the former presidentis in the capitol rotunda and
some people would say, GeraldFord is in the capitol rotunda
and the difference between like,the person being the body, right
versus the body being right thethe material remains, but that
(30:00):
that person is, you know, theirspirit is gone, their soul is
gone. It's just reallyinteresting right to think about
shifting attitudes towards thatover time. So I think about
that, that the late 19thcentury, when cremation starts
to just in the very beginningstart to inch up, is when we get
the spiritualist movementemerging in the United States,
(30:22):
right, the idea of the notwaiting around for a
resurrection of the body, butthe idea that there's immortal
soul, right, that is sort ofcontinuous. And so it's it's
interesting to think about theimplications, what, you know,
maybe whether people arethinking about it or not for
what you're saying about therelationship between yourself
and your body? There's notreally a question there. But,
(30:45):
but this is kind of the way, youknow, the way that I'm thinking
about this when I think about,like, belief or practice of
people and how they operate inthe world.
Dustin Grim (30:54):
Right, right. Yeah.
And it's hard on on our end, asfuneral directors to answer
those questions for the familythat you're in front of, you
know, I think to educatesomebody that does not know or,
or does not have a, an idea ofwhat their loved one wanted,
didn't want, and maybe does nothave any sort of religious
(31:16):
beliefs, it makes it difficultto steer them or guide them in
the right direction, and what'sgoing to be best for them in the
coming weeks, days, months,years ahead for grief, you know,
and at least from myperspective, I look at it from
that, that perspective. So as areligious standpoint, if you
(31:36):
have some belief in inresurrection, then there's hope
that there'll be something more.
And we're not just disposing ofa dead human body, in the ground
with nothing more to come. Andso certainly, things that I'm
seeing is when somebody dies,and family chooses to cremate
(32:01):
somebody not put an obituary inthe paper, not have a service,
not bury not do anything. Andnot not everybody, but I do get
these people who call me andsay, Dustin, why did I do this?
Because now I have to every timeI'm at the grocery store, what
happened to your husband, orwhat happened to your wife,
every time I'm at a publicfunction, and people don't know.
(32:23):
And so it's kind of opening upthat can of retelling the story
and restarting the grief processover and over again. So I mean,
as a funeral director, Icertainly feel strongly that
some sort of service and it canbe, it doesn't have to be a, you
know, a night viewing a funeralin a church, a burial at a
(32:45):
cemetery, but some some way tohonor and celebrate somebody's
life, I think is super, superimportant, especially for the
beginnings of of grief, and tobe able to publicly share, share
that with friends and lovedones.
Chip Gruen (33:00):
Yeah. And it's it's interesting, the way you talk
about on the one hand, grief ispersonal and private. Right. On
the other hand, you'redescribing a social function is
what how we would describe it,right? That, that it's important
that there's kind of a publicrecognition of the passing of an
individual, for practical aswell as personal reasons. Yeah,
(33:22):
it's interesting to think about,and I wonder, you know, thinking
about, you know, you helpingpeople through this process, it
seems to me, like your role, ifanything, will have gotten more
important and more instrumental,as the number of people without
formal religious affiliation hasgone up, right, that the so
(33:42):
called "nones" that we're alwaystalking about, right, because
they don't have necessarilyreligious leaders that they can
point to, to talk, talk throughthese things.
Dustin Grim (33:51):
Yeah, definitely.
You know, and it is, we're in aposition right now, where we
don't have a whole lot ofoptions to turn to, you know,
the those who choose to cremateand have a celebration of life
at a park or at a social hall orwherever it is that that they're
doing that celebration. How doyou, you know, without a formal
religious service, if you will,who will emcee? I don't know if
(34:14):
that's the right terminology,but who will emcee that and, and
make it go off as as seamless asa traditional religious service
will be. And it's beenproblematic. There there's been
a celebrant movement that's beenstarted by the National Funeral
Directors Association, wherethere is lay people who can take
(34:36):
training classes to celebrateand honor somebody's life
without any kind of religiousundertones that was started out
in in on the west coast, wherethe cremation rate is certainly
much higher than it is in someother places. And, and basically
a way to say the deceased lifemattered, whether they have
(35:00):
religious beliefs or not. And sowe need to celebrate that. As
far as I know, locally, there isnot, not very many of them that
that are out there, there aresome funeral directors who have
taken the celebrant course, tobe able to offer that to their
families, it is not somethingthat I have done it at this
point.
Chip Gruen (35:19):
That's interesting, because it makes me think of the
ways that one can license withthe state to be an officiant at
a wedding, for example. Soyou'll have a family friend who
will go and get the paperwork sothat they can be the state
representative for lack of abetter word at a wedding, which
is also public, right, that hasthose sorts of functions. So
(35:41):
it's interesting to see ifthere's a that, that there is a
movement that is sort of takinga similar position at this other
really important life deathevent as well. So and I told
you, I've been thinking aboutthis conversation for a long
time. And one of the reasons andwe talked a little bit about
this, I know there are thingsyou can say, and you can't say
(36:02):
about this, but when I wasdriving past a local funeral
home, it wasn't Schantz, butwith a different funeral home,
and they had a marquee outside,and it said all faiths,
religious traditions, welcome.
And I read that and I was like,okay, that's really interesting.
I want to know, I mean, whatdoes that mean? Does that mean
that they're just open toserving lots of different kinds
(36:24):
of people? Or does that meanthat they have ritual expertise
that can help them help, say,Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim, or
Jewish people who need theirservices? So what I mean, given
that on the one hand, we'vetalked a lot about sort of
rising, the "nones" and thepeople without religious
(36:48):
affiliation, but then our worldis increasingly diverse with
people of different religioustraditions as well. How has that
affected your industry? How doyou deal with that? I know,
we've talked a little bit aboutthe segmentation of the funeral
home business itself as well.
Dustin Grim (37:06):
Yeah, so different religious organizations have
different rituals, if you will,for funeral practices. So there
are some some funeral homes orsome religious groups that
particularly use a specificfuneral home, for example, the
people of the Jewish faithtypically go to the same funeral
(37:27):
home and they have theirritualistic things that they do.
And people specialize or funeralhomes specialize in those kinds
of things. And then there'sothers that, you know, we need
to learn as funeral directors aswe move forward with, again, as
you mentioned, the, thediversity of the Lehigh Valley
here is certainly growing. Andso as a funeral director, going
(37:48):
back to your statement, servingall faiths, or all faiths are
welcome. You have to kind oflearn as as you go, I believe
the example that that I hadshared with you was I had a
Buddhist family that thatcontacted me, and asked if I did
Buddhists, if I had doneBuddhist funerals prior. And I
said, No, but I'm willing tohelp you if you're willing to
help me. And so it wasdefinitely a learning
(38:09):
experience. And, you know, tryto to make sure you're following
their wishes and traditions oftheir faith in order to appease
the family and do what what isright by the deceased. I'm
pretty sure there's probablyfuneral homes out there that
that would say, we don't want todo that. And kind of stick to
(38:30):
the main mainstream, and this iswhat we do. And this is what
we're good at. And we're notwilling to learn. And I think,
again, moving forward for thefuture of funeral services, we
need to grasp the idea of it'sokay to, to think outside the
box and, and it's okay to learnsomething different. And, and be
able to help families of otherother religious beliefs. I do
(38:56):
know and can share a friend ofmine, they serve the Mennonite
population, and recentlycontacted by a Muslim
organization that was wascreating a cemetery and asked,
Could they and would they bewilling to work with the Muslim
population because of the, thelocation of the funeral home to
the cemetery? And so they didsome research and did some
(39:18):
training classes and they arenow serving the Muslim
population in that that specificarea, totally different, again,
from from the traditionalMennonite services, but
certainly something that thatthey've embraced and are now you
know, serving the Muslimpopulation as well.
Chip Gruen (39:38):
Interesting. So from to go back for a second from
your own experience, you sayyou, you know, have been
approached by Buddhistpractitioners and they came and
you, you said, Sure, I'm willingto learn let's Can you remember
any of the specific things thatwould have made that different
(39:58):
that that would have called onyou to adapt to doing or saying
things differently than youwould in what would be a more I
mean sort of standard service orstandard services that you
offer?
Dustin Grim (40:13):
Yeah. So, so, definitely with with the
Buddhist service, I knew goinginto it that just from a general
religion class that the bodywould be cremated, not embalmed,
I had really had no expectationor idea of of what else that
that involved and so, it was athey they dress the body in
traditional clothes, they had apublic viewing unembalmed, which
(40:37):
is something that is certainlylegal. And then the following
day kind of as as dressed as asyou and I are today, in in
Americanized clothes thefollowing day, there was a
Buddhist priest that came or amonk they were then dressed in,
in traditional traditionalclothing. There was music that
(40:58):
was played and they hadceremonial things of tea and and
little bits of food. And theybelieve the things that were
placed into the cremationcontainer were things that were
needed for the afterlife, andwere to be cremated with their
loved one. They also then go tothe crematory and do a ceremony
(41:19):
at the crematory. Following thecremation, their cremated
remains go to a Buddhist temple.
And I don't know the number ofdays that they remained in the
Buddhist temple. And the theidea was that their soul leaves
their cremated remains and theircremated remains thaen are
placed in in water of some sort.
Chip Gruen (41:39):
Interesting, and you mentioned just you know, the
unembalmed viewing, which youparenthetically said which is
certainly legal. So youobviously have a relationship
with the state, right aboutwhat's legal and what's not. I
mean, how restrictive is thestate and, you know, for
(42:00):
whatever it be public healthreasons or what have you. I
mean, do you see any bumping upagainst the wishes of families
versus state things are thosepretty minimal?
Dustin Grim (42:12):
Pretty minimal. I mean, there certainly are rules
and regulations laws that weneed to follow for at least
public viewing and non embalmedbody. I mean, there there is, or
the laws were created, that itkind of is is available for
those religious organizations toto do their rites and rituals
without having to break the law,if you will, you know, certainly
(42:37):
there's been a number of thingsCOVID being one of them, where a
lot of the rules regulationshave, were gotten rid of for a
period of time. And we're nowback in, in normal operating
procedures. I mean, one of thebig things that COVID has, has
shown to the world is at leastin my eyes, as a funeral
(42:59):
director is, is one of the mostimportant things that we do as
funeral directors is to protectour communities, from the spread
of contagious diseases, from thedead to the living. And, and
probably not something that wasthought of much before COVID.
And certainly, there wererestrictions placed on us as to
(43:22):
do you embalm, do you notembalm? You know, and obviously
those things have changed. But,again, I think that it was a
good eye opener that we asfuneral directors are protecting
our communities from, publichealth is number one, is what we
do.
Chip Gruen (43:38):
It's just so interesting to think about all
of the different places that youyou know, there is the social
function, we talked about thepsychological function, the
public health function, thereligious and you know,
doctrinal, practical function.
It just, it's just reallyinteresting to see the
confluences of all of thosepieces of who we are, as humans
(43:59):
sort of coming together at thissort of moment of immediacy that
we have upon the death, youknow, the death of a loved one.
So just one more note on that,about the diversity of religious
belief and practice and, and youknow, as people who may have
been in the United States, Imean, fourth or fifth fifth
(44:22):
generation and my wife's familyis uncountable generations 10 or
12. But these first and secondgeneration, people from around
the world from from variousplaces can be more traditional
in some ways are often moretraditional in some ways. And so
it's interesting to see how theexpectations or it will be
(44:42):
interesting to see how thoseexpectations over the course of
the next next generation go andthe only other thing I would say
about that is that we have a lotof immigrant communities from
places that might be Muslim orHindu or Buddhist where there is
less of an elderly population inthe United States, they're just
(45:04):
because of immigration lawchanges that have happened or
who emigrates. And I reallywonder, you know, going forward
in the next generation, how muchthe services of funeral homes
will be called on more and moreto adapt as those populations
age, you know, just just becauseof, of life cycles. Now, this
(45:25):
coincided with, with immigrantcommunities.
Dustin Grim (45:31):
Yeah, I think definitely. I mean, from my
perspective, if if you haven'tgrasped that, and you're turning
your head and sending them tothe, with the funeral home down
the street, I think you'relosing something there. You
know, as your you said, thepopulation again, for those
specific groups of people areyounger, and certainly will, you
(45:53):
know, as they're here and, andgrowing families and they age,
you know, are their traditionsgoing to change? Maybe? Are they
going to become moreAmericanized? Maybe, but I still
think it's good to understandthe traditional practices of, of
their beliefs.
Chip Gruen (46:13):
Yeah, I would, I would argue that even if there,
if some of those practices sortof start to conform more with,
you know, as, as the generationsroll on, I would guess that
funeral practice, marriagepractice, birth rituals will be
some of the things that we'llhold on the longest, right?
Because the immediacy of it.
Alright, so one thing that Ialways like to finish on is,
(46:35):
what am I leaving out? Right?
What are what is the thing thatwe haven't talked about?
Because, you know, I am not, youknow, knee deep in, in the
funeral industry? Is thereanything that you know, that you
think is really important thatour listeners should know, about
the way that, you know, the workof a funeral director or the
(46:59):
work of a funeral home and howthat interacts with, you know,
with individuals and familiesand their needs? I mean, what
what am I not seeing here?
Dustin Grim (47:08):
Can I go back to one thing?
Chip Gruen (47:09):
Yeah.
Dustin Grim (47:10):
So one of the things that we talked about
cremation and and the the riseof the cremation rate, and kind
of talked a little bit aboutthat celebrant movement,
ironically, is, is there'sthere's certain pockets and
places throughout the country,where the cremation rate is much
higher, and they're certainlyplaces where they're much lower.
And I think from a religiousstandpoint, it is 100% hits the
(47:33):
nail on the head, the deepsouth, and certain areas where
their cremation rate is probablystill 10% or less is the more
traditional type. Religiousbeliefs. And I think, from
things that I've read andresearched, especially in the
deep south, is the, thetraditional African Americans do
(47:55):
not cremate. And I think thatthose areas, definitely
traditional areas, when you'retalking Northern California,
Oregon, Washington, some placesin northeast where people are
more environmentally friendlyand have different beliefs, if
you will, and or maybe no, noreligious beliefs is where the
(48:16):
the cremation rate hasdefinitely risen. And, and
specifically, the NationalFuneral Directors has targeted
Northern California, Washington,Oregon and the northeast, as as
those celebrant movement places.
So I think there is a directcorrelation between religious
beliefs and the cremation ratein those specific areas. You
know, here in Pennsylvania,we're kind of middle of the
(48:38):
road. And so, you know, and Ithink that's some of the reason
why we have not been able todraw that celebrant movement to
us at this point in time.
Chip Gruen (48:50):
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, we have
listeners from all over and wehaven't talked too much about
the Lehigh Valley. But theLehigh Valley is middle of the
road in lots of ways, right? Wehave this old Pennsylvania Dutch
tradition that is here, beenhere generations and
generations, but yet a fairlyhigh immigrant community. And we
are, you know, either we are apart of the ecosystem, the
(49:13):
liberal liberal northeast arecertainly within easy driving
distance of it, right, so thatyou can get all all kinds here.
And so it's interesting to seethat that's reflected also in
how you deal with the public aswell.
Dustin Grim (49:25):
And going back to to things that that may have
been left out. I think that, youknow, it's important, again, we
talked about throughout theprogram here of people that
don't have ideas of what theirloved ones wishes are. I am a
huge fan of and I know that afamily Sunday dinner is not the
time to probably people to talkabout funerals and what their
(49:46):
wishes and those kinds of thingsare. I'm a huge fan of talking
about those things, and gettingplans in order. At least locally
here lots of folks and I'll usethe Pennsylvania Dutch
tradition. they'll say to me,well, Dustin, I don't want to
give you any my money. And Isaid, I don't want your money.
You know, but I want your wishesin writing. So I think it's
(50:08):
important to talk about thosethings, especially, especially
those that are going to be thatare outside of the norm, if you
will, of a church funeral, aburial, a casketed burial, you
know, where a service might beheld? Or what what types of
things that people are lookingfor, to be able to, to honor and
(50:28):
celebrate somebody's life? Thoseare the big hurdles that I'm
seeing now of, you know, wheredo you do it? How do you put it
together? Who do you want tospeak? You know, what do you
want it to look like? What doyou want people to remember you
as those kinds of things, Ithink are super important. How
you get people to talk aboutthat. I'm never sure. You know,
I do talk to lots of churchgroups, I talk to senior groups,
(50:52):
I talk to whoever wants tolisten to a talk about pre
arrangements, and getting yourwishes in writing. And I think
that's super, super important.
The payment portion, that's foranother time, and, you know,
doesn't need to be discussedhere. But I think having your
wishes available to your family,and have them know where those
wishes are, is is superimportant. I also think that
(51:15):
that we're gonna see a hugechange in Pennsylvania, at least
for the funeral business as thecremation rate rises and
continues to rise. There aresmall funeral homes that are
gonna go out of business.
There's just no way businesswise that somebody who's who's
servicing 40 families, and isdoing the projection to 80%
(51:38):
cremation that economically theycannot keep their doors open. So
I think we're gonna see a bigshift in the number of funeral
funeral homes. Not so much herein the valley. But I mean, there
are going to be some that aregoing to close their doors. But
when you get up into SchuylkillCounty, and and up northern
northern areas where there's,you know, a third generation
(52:01):
family that's doing it, and Idon't like to use the word
hobby, but as a hobby and has afull time career doing something
else. I think we're gonna seethose those places close over
time. And and, you know, it'sit's going to be the the way
it's going to be.
Chip Gruen (52:18):
Yeah, yeah, well, the only constant is change.
Right?
Dustin Grim (52:21):
Correct.
Chip Gruen (52:22):
So we'll see that...
Dustin Grim (52:23):
Correct.
Chip Gruen (52:24):
Well, Dustin Grim, thank you so much for coming.
This has been a super enjoyableconversation and enlightening. I
really appreciate it.
Dustin Grim (52:30):
Thank you.
Chip Gruen (52:33):
This has been ReligionWise a podcast produced
by the Institute for Religiousand Cultural Understanding of
Muhlenberg College. ReligionWiseis produced and directed by
Christine Flicker. For moreinformation about additional
programming, or to make aninquiry about a speaking
engagement, please visit ourwebsite at
religionandculture.com. Thereyou'll find our contact
(52:53):
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We look forward to seeing younext time.
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