Discover the transformative journey of Michelle Coulson, the Chief Remote Rebel and Founder of Remote Rebellion, as she takes us from her days of working low-paid jobs around the globe to satisfy her wanderlust, to becoming a pivotal figure in recruitment and remote work advocacy.
Michelle's candid discussion reveals the highs and lows of her career in agency recruitment, her struggle with the emphasis on KPIs over meaningful connections, and her quest for a work-life balance that respects individual aspirations. Whether you're a digital nomad or someone seeking to spend more time with family, Michelle’s story emphasizes the importance of creating a work environment tailored to your personal needs.
You can find Michelle Coulson and Remote Rebellion using the following links:
LinkedIn Profile
LinkedIn Page
Remote Rebellion Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (00:02):
Hey everybody.
It's Alex from the Remote WorkLife podcast.
I have with me today somebodywho I've known for a number of
years and I've been meaning toinvite onto the podcast,
michelle Coulson.
And Michelle is somebody who,as I said, I've been meaning to
invite on the podcast for yearsand years.
I'm so happy to have her onhere today.
(00:24):
She's the chief remote rebeland founder of remote rebellion
and we're very similar in termsof what we do.
But, as I said, I've knownMichelle and I've followed her
post for a number of years.
I just wanted to have her onthe podcast and lots of people
say good things about Michelle.
So happy to have you here today, michelle, thank you.
Michelle Coulson @ Remot (00:44):
Thanks for having me that's good to
hear that I'm being talked aboutin a positive and lots of
people say good things aboutMichelle.
So happy to have you here today, Michelle, Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
That's good to hear that I'mbeing talked about in a positive
light.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (00:51):
Nice to hear, Definitely, and just
before we got on, we weretalking about where we are.
Where are you today?
Where are you situated?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (00:59):
I am in sunny Bali today.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (01:03):
Oh lovely.
I'm in London.
It is quite sunny today, butnot quite as warm, I guess, as
Barley, but no good to have youhere.
As ever, we want to find outabout you.
This podcast is all about youwhere you got to, your
experiences of remote work, etc.
I've got quite a few questionsI want to ask you.
I don't know if you're going tohave time to ask all of them in
the time that we have, butwe'll do our best.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (01:25):
So , for those who don't know, just
tell us a bit about yourself,michelle, tell us about what
you're doing sure, in a nutshell, the short version, I am
enabling and empowering peopleto work remotely so that they
can live the life that theydesign, instead of one that's
designed for them based around ajob, based around a location.
(01:48):
And, yeah, giving them that notjust the encouragement and the
confidence that they can jumpoutside of that nine-to-five
office life, but also givingthem the tools and resources and
connecting them with the rightpeople so that they can work
remotely.
And that doesn't mean that theyhave to be digital nomads
travelling around the world.
That might just be that theywant to stay at home with their
kids and see their kids grow up,raise their children as they
(02:12):
want to, or people who want tobe at home with their pets, look
after an elderly parent justwhatever remote work and
whatever freedom and flexibilitymeans to that person.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (02:23):
And that's the key, isn't it?
I think that's what, for me,remote work is about, and, yuzi,
you're touching on that.
There's so many differentversions of what remote work is
Digital nomad, work from home,co-working space and freedom is
the thing that I think more andmore people are looking for in
(02:43):
in their lives, and especiallywhen it comes to work.
People are realizing now thatthey don't want to be
necessarily tied to a particularlocation.
They don't want to necessarilybe in an office not saying
there's anything wrong withbeing in an office, but I think
each and every person thrives indifferent environments.
So I think, definitely, you'reempowering that, you're creating
(03:03):
that sort of that movement, oryou're a force behind that
movement.
So it's to me, it's great.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (03:08):
Thank you.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (03:09):
So now, something I want to know,
michelle, is what got you tothis point.
How did you get to the pointwhere you're in the position
that you are today?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (03:20):
So I was working in well before I
got into recruitment.
So I was working in recruitmentfor about seven years before I
established Remote Rebellion.
There was a bit of a backstorybefore that.
I have always been a lover, apassionate about travel.
I just, I absolutely lovetravel and when I left
university I was trying to findevery way I possibly could to
(03:41):
stay traveling and I was doingrandom jobs, from working in a
Great Dane kennels in Sydney toworking in a burger joint in the
middle of nowhere in theoutback to campsite courier in
Italy, all sorts.
I did many random jobs to justkeep traveling, but they were
really low-paid jobs and quitelabor-intensive and not
necessarily things that Iactually wanted to do.
(04:02):
So remote work wasn't reallywasn't a thing to do.
So remote work wasn't reallywasn't a thing people spoke
about then, so it wasn't reallysomething I knew about.
And I carried on living thisnot proper job until kind of
late 20s and realised, okay, Iwant to be able to buy a house,
I want to do all of the thingsthat you're supposed to do in
your late 20s supposed to do.
(04:23):
Do all of the things thatyou're supposed to do in your
late 20s supposed to do and getdo all of the things that you're
supposed to do.
So I got a proper job inrecruitment.
Thought I was just going to doit for a couple of years and do
it for a bit of money and thentravel again, but I actually
really enjoyed it and I realizedI was good at it as well.
I think you come from a agencyrecruitment background yourself,
right?
so I do so there's the pros andthe cons of that and I found
(04:43):
myself getting sucked into thenegative sides of that and,
ashamedly, actually, I caughtmyself.
I was a contract recruiter, soactually treating people for my
measurements and my numbers andgetting people into interviews
even if I knew they weren't theright fit for the role because I
had my KPIs to hit, and itmakes me feel a bit like queasy.
Stop talking about it now,because it's a whole different
(05:04):
version of me.
I always empathize with agencyrecruiters because I think you
get turned into the beast likeyou become the beast because
that's the environment you're in, right.
So I got a bit.
I ended up leaving that job andwent on a cycle through Europe
for five weeks and found myself,or whatever you want to call it
, and it ended up going intoin-house recruitment and that
(05:27):
reignited my not I wouldn't saylove for recruitment, but
reignited like realizing I'mactually good at this and this
doesn't have to be the dark sideof recruitment that it had gone
into.
And I worked in-house for anapp development company.
Absolutely loved it.
I got to hire all of the peopleI got to work around with me.
I had an awesome officeenvironment, great team, great
(05:50):
people I worked with and I justI loved it.
But then it was about 2016-2017.
I realized remote work wassomething more and more people
were talking about.
I was hiring developers, andthat was back in the days.
I don't know if you remember2016-2017.
Developers had the power theywere like.
Tell me what you're going tooffer me.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (06:09):
I don't know if I'm gonna, I'm
not if.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (06:10):
I'm gonna work for you.
What do you have to give?
And I'm like what, this, what?
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (06:14):
is this.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (06:15):
So Brexit was around that time so
we couldn't get developers fromEurope, so it was really hard to
hire unless we were able tooffer the big bucks or offer
more flexibility.
So I really pushed and naggedwith my current employer.
I was like we need to do thisremote, we need to have flexible
working.
So back 2017, I got there inthe end after a lot of
(06:36):
persistence, and we're thenallowed to do up to four days a
week remote.
So I was like, okay, winning,which back then was quite an
achievement.
Then, when the pandemic hit fast, fast forward to 2020,
everyone's working remote, theoffice is closed and I was I'm
really miserable.
Like I realized how unhappy Iwas living in London.
I was in my early 30s.
All of my friends and friendswere moving out to the suburbs,
(06:58):
getting married, having kids,and I didn't want that.
But I didn't know what I didwant and I was like I definitely
don't want it.
I'm really unhappy here.
So I started thinking aboutwhat I wanted, what made me
happy, and that was being by theocean, being by the sea, being
in a warm climate, and I lookedback at my time in Southeast
Asia in the past.
I was.
I was really happy there.
So I thought, okay, the officeis closed, I'm going to go to
(07:18):
Bali.
I'm going to go there for acouple of months until the
inevitable callback comes frommy boss okay, london's opening.
And when that call did come,two months later, I felt sick.
I was like I absolutely do notwant to leave here.
There's, I'm so much happier,I'm more productive, I am
surfing in the morning, I'mspending the days the way I want
(07:39):
to.
It was I was just I was livinglife, but still working eight
hours a day and managing to doboth.
I was having the having it alleight hours a day and managing
to do both.
I was having the having it all,as they say.
And I said to my boss.
I said I can't go back and he'syou can't work from there.
I was like why not?
I've been doing, I've beenworking remotely for the past 18
months.
I don't understand why.
And I always say I imagine thelittle Britain moment of
computer says no, there was not.
Like there was like no realreason.
(08:01):
And I was getting reallyfrustrated, hence the name
rebellion.
I was just like I was peed off.
I was like why?
And that was that, is that it'scompany policy.
I was like, okay, I quit.
And that's when I was like,okay, quit my job.
Didn't have anything to go to,didn't have any savings, I had a
mortgage to pay in London, butI just knew I'd find a way love
(08:23):
it so go on.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (08:25):
I didn't realize you'd you've
done that, though that'ssomething that's.
But I think when you have thosefeelings, you have to follow
those feelings and I think foryou, you, for me, just listening
to that little monologue thereyou just I understand that
you're a determined person.
You know what you want, yeah,and I have a feeling you know
how to get what you want as well.
But at that point when you quityour job, get what you want as
well, but at that point when youquit your job, did you have any
(08:48):
sort of plan at all?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (08:50):
Yeah , I thought, ok, I'll do some
freelancing recruitment, I'llhelp startups hire remotely.
That was the idea I had in myhead.
I didn't have anything solid,but I was like I'll figure this
out, I'll find a way.
And that was mid, sorry, so itwas about April 2021, june 2021.
So that's when a lot of thecompanies that had were coming
out of this lockdown.
(09:11):
Companies were hiring again.
So recruitment was in a goodplace then and I just figured
I'll find a way.
I've got a good network.
I've been in recruitment forseven years.
I'm good at what I do.
I'll find a way, and I alwaystalk about this like safety net
as well.
I feel like anyone who takes theplunge and does something
without having it takes a plungeto do something out of their
comfort zone.
(09:31):
There's different levels ofsafety net and I figured I don't
have rich parents or a partnerto support me.
It was all on me.
But what I did have is if can Iswear on this?
Um, if, like, shit hit the fanand everything went to pot, I
would be able to move in with mysister, live in my nephew's
(09:52):
playroom and I would have foodon the table.
I'd have a roof over my head,I'd have my family around me
that loved me and I'd have foodon the table.
Some people don't have thatsafety net, so I think it's
almost like a crying shame ifyou don't make the most of this
and you don't take the plunge,because what's the worst that
can happen?
I'll lose my house, I won'thave any money, I won't have any
savings, but I've still got allof these things.
(10:14):
So to me it that was likewhat's the worst that can happen
.
That's the way I assess that.
And some people don't even havethat safety net.
Some people, literally, if itdoesn't work out, they end up
homeless.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ r (10:23):
That's like next level right yeah, and
it's, and I think that's a goodpoint.
Actually, you have to.
I don't know what you think ofthis, but if you're in that
situation where you're trying tofigure out what to do next, you
have to take your circumstancesinto consideration, not
overthink them, but you stillhave to, and it sounds like
that's what you were doing, butalso, but also it sounds like
(10:43):
you're a pragmatic person aswell, in the sense that, or even
a glass half full person,because you're thinking to
yourself what's the worst thatcould happen?
It's going to.
Things aren't going to.
The world's not going to openup and consume you.
You're going to find a way,sort of thing.
No, I like that, I like that.
Okay.
(11:06):
So that I like that, okay.
So how did you go from then?
because when you were talkingabout recruitment just then, and
contract recruiting, I had someflashbacks there because I used
to work as a contract recruitermyself, where you're chasing
the sort of the job comes in andyou're like Alex, there's a job
in and you're rushing aroundtrying to find that CV.
Call them up before anybodyelse calls them up.
Yeah, get them through to the,you know get those kpi sort of
yeah, I had a bit of a flashbackthere.
But recruitment, though, Iguess so many skills that it
(11:29):
gives you and as much as thereare a lot of bad recruiters that
are out there, and it appearsthat most of the bad ones, in my
humble opinion, are agencyrecruiters.
There are good ones, but youreally have to pick out the,
what you have to really look forthe good ones.
It does give you some greatskills, doesn't it?
It gives you great skills,which obviously you have.
(11:50):
So then, how did you?
How did the remote rebellion?
What's the genesis of remoterebellion?
From that background inrecruitment and sales, yeah I
was.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (12:00):
I thought, okay, so I need to
find some companies that willallow me to work remotely doing
recruitment.
So I was considering freelance,I was considering permanent,
but I had a real hard timefinding companies that would
allow me to work remotely fromBali.
Some of them were like, yeah,we're remote, but you need to be
in the UK and I'm like whyYou've got all of these employee
(12:21):
records?
And again, I don't agree withjust having a no unless you've
got a good reason.
Give me a good reason why it'sa no that you've got all of
these employee of records.
I don't say no for an answer,as you can tell, unless you give
me a good reason.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (12:33):
I can tell yeah.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (12:36):
So you've got all these employee
of records, you can go freelance, you can.
There's ways around the wholetax and legal reasons which a
lot of companies cite as thereasons for not allowing work
from anywhere, and essentiallythey just don't want it enough
and maybe they don't likediversity.
I'm just gonna dump that inthere a little bit with a bit of
fire so that I was gettingannoyed about that.
But I did manage to find acouple of companies that would
(12:57):
allow me to work remotely and Idid freelancing with them.
But then it got my cogs turning.
I was like, if I'm strugglingso much and I know the market
I've been in recruitment forseven years, I know how it works
, I'm well networked so if I'mstruggling with this, then the
average person's going to bereally struggling to find remote
work as well.
So I that kind of went in myhead a little bit.
I'm like, huh, okay, and then Iwas.
(13:18):
I met there's a lot of coachesin Bali and there's a lot of bad
ones, and I I my first coachthat I hired was a bit of a
crappy one, but he did plantsome seed in my head because he
was a coach of coaches, whichthere's a lot of and he was
putting me into a box of saying,oh so, tell me what you want to
do, tell me what you're good at.
And he said, oh so you'reessentially a coach.
(13:39):
And I'm like no, not really.
And he's like are you?
And he gave me that label andit didn't sit well with me, but
he made some good points.
If you're teaching people howto do this, you're doing that.
And I was like okay, I don'tthink I'm a coach in the way of
a qualified coach.
I think I'm a fitness personaltrainer coach and I'm like do
these exercises, do this?
(13:59):
I'm more like a trainer than athan a coach, because I think
they're very different and Idon't want to undervalue and
undersell what good, qualifiedcoaches are.
But he planted that idea andthen on a boat trip it sounds
like quite magical, but it wason a boat trip around the Komodo
Islands I had this ping.
It was really nice.
I had this ping moment and thislight bulb moment of yeah, I
(14:21):
can help people on their journeyhere.
I can actually sit with them inthis situation.
I was in and be like okay, whatis it you want?
What do you want to do?
What does life look like foryou and what do you like?
Not in a life situation, butlike.
What do you want?
Like we were talking aboutbefore.
What does freedom andflexibility look like to you?
What does an ideal job andcompany look like to you?
And help them find theopportunities, know where to
(14:44):
look, help network with them.
Help them to network, sorry,and really connect them with the
right people so that they canfind a good match for what they
want.
Reverse headhunting, really.
Rather than finding a personfor a role, I'm working with
someone to find the rightopportunities, the right
companies and roles for them.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (15:02):
Beautiful .
I love that and I think it'sthe principles of job.
I don't know it's a catch-22,because a lot of people who are
looking for a job there are,there's sort of like a segment
of people who want somebody todo the stuff, all the grunt work
for them and look for the joband help them write their CV for
(15:23):
them, get in touch with aclient.
But there's like that sweetspot which you've just described
, which is essentiallyempowering people to do that for
themselves.
And it sounds like that's whatyou, that's what you're doing,
whilst showing them, giving themlike the rudiments and the sort
of not the rudiments the sortof roadmap to to go from where
they are to where they want tobe.
(15:44):
And yet a lot of people, a lotof people yeah, it's lots of
people struggle with that andyeah, for you.
Then, when you had that ahamoment, what did you then?
What did you do next after that?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (15:55):
I didn't know what it was gonna
look like, I just knew I wasgonna help people and do you
know it's really funny peoplelike, how did you get your first
client?
I was like I actually don'tremember and it's really weird
that I don't remember it beingso much of an effort, which I
sound really arrogant saying,and I feel a bit guilty having
that.
Don't be guilty no I love it.
(16:16):
I just feel a little bit likeand my very first client was
someone that I worked with atthe same company and we worked
on a one-to-one basis and wewould go through everything
one-to-one, and I was winging ita little bit because I was like
, okay, I know I can help himwith this, but I want to know
first of all what he needs helpwith.
And I didn't yet have that data, like I do now, two and a half
(16:37):
years later or longer, of whatpeople actually struggle with.
So the more people I workedwith on a one-to-one basis, I'm
like, ah, so people arestruggling with finding the
opportunities, figuring out whatthey want, knowing how to reach
out to people, knowing how toget some feedback and things
(17:00):
like that.
It wasn't till I worked withmaybe 10, 15 clients on a
one-to-one basis.
I'm like, okay, I'm getting acommon theme now of what people
really need help with.
And confidence is such a big oneand it's one that I, ironically
, I didn't think I didn't havethe confidence to think I could
help people with theirconfidence, and it just it
happened as a happy accidentthat once you're looking at the
two parts, we're very easy andquick to say I'm not good at
(17:24):
that.
I don't have experience here.
I mean, who would hire me withthis?
All of like negative self-talkwe're all really good at that.
I'm really bad at saying whatwe're good at, because we've
been told, especially in Europeand especially in Eastern Europe
, from at because we've beentold, especially in Europe and
especially in Eastern Europe,from the people I've been
speaking with of, you know, thistall poppy syndrome of don't
big yourself up too much, don'tbe so cocky.
And we like it feels icky forus to shout about our
(17:46):
achievements and what we're goodat, so encouraging people to
first highlight it with them.
Okay, so you said you did thisand this.
That means you're great at that, it means you're good at that
and you could do that, and like,ah, oh, I didn't think of it
that way.
So it's so like improving theirconfidence in that way.
But also, once they become moreskilled in knowing more about
(18:08):
how recruitment works, how theprocess works, they become more
competent, which then entail itthen leads to them being more
confident in things.
So that's had a massive part toplay in it.
It's not just the logisticalimprove your cv and bob's your
uncle.
There's a lot more to it.
There's a lot more, especiallywith remote work, because it's
become so much more competitivein the last couple of years.
(18:30):
You really can't.
Just you, don't you.
It's not enough to have a goodcv anymore.
All these like cv writingservices.
So many people ask me can youjust rewrite my cv?
I'm like I can, but it'sprobably not going to help you
that much.
So you could have the best cvin the world.
If you're not well connectedand you're not putting yourself
out there and you're not able tosell yourself, then and that's
(18:50):
what it is you're selling andmarketing yourself and it's a.
It sounds a bit icky to say,but that's you're offering a
service and you're selling thatservice you know what I think
you're more than a coach from.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (19:00):
I mean you're because I think,
especially with this again, thejob search it requires more than
just a coach.
I think I think nothing againstcareer coaches.
I think they do a really goodjob.
However, career coaches willjust almost point you in the
right direction.
(19:20):
I think there's much moreneeded with this, with what
we're talking about, in what youdo actually, in that you're
instilling confidence, like Isaid before, showing the
processes, telling them aboutthe background of how the actual
job search cycle works, andtelling them that you can't lean
the actual job search cycleworks, and telling them that you
can't lean on your CV, youcan't rely on all these
different things.
So I think, from what you'resaying, it's what you're doing
(19:41):
is much more than coaching.
It's coaching plus.
And then it's for another thingthat you said that really
resonated with me as well isthat the confidence side of
things.
You said that you were almosttrying to get the confidence
that you could give peopleconfidence to get a job.
That's something that Iactually also suffer with,
because I'm pretty confidentwhen it comes to, like what you
(20:02):
say, the processes, cv, allthese different kind of things,
but when it comes to me beingconfident, I actually sometimes
undervalue myself in terms ofwhat I have to offer.
It's quite funny when I'mtrying to, I'm instilling
confidence in others at the sametime.
Maybe I need a coach.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (20:19):
If you don't have one already, I
would definitely recommendgetting one, because it's really
made a massive difference to meof just reaching out and
speaking to an expert who knowshow to get the most out of you.
And that's essentially what itis, and that's why people hire
personal trainers.
Yes, they could go and go onYouTube and learn the moves
themselves, but actually havingsomeone there who's tweaking and
guiding and treating you as anindividual, I think it's
(20:44):
invaluable.
I've definitely I feel likeI've upped my game since getting
coaching from someone else.
I'm able, like it's empoweredme more to know the bits that
I'm good at, and I can then,yeah, deliver to other people
and something I was going to askyou, which is because you were
on the.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (21:00):
You were at the time when you were
thinking about remote rebellion,even though it wasn't probably
wasn't called remote rebellion.
Then you were on the cusp ofalmost shall I go back into
employment or shall I just do itmyself?
And I guess the push for youwas I can't find none of these
people who are hiring are goingto allow me to work the way I
want.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (21:21):
Yes and no.
I actually did have twofreelance gigs that allowed me
to work from wherever I wanted,allowed me to be, and one of
them was actually paying reallywell.
I think in the early days itwas paying me more than I ended
up getting from remote rallyingin the beginning.
It wasn't out of a need.
Actually, it was more out of apassion of this is something
people need and I think I've gotthis to give and it really for
(21:46):
the first six months maybe Ididn't take it so serious.
I was like, oh, I'll just do abit of coaching here and there
and I didn't see it as abusiness, but I knew there was
something I could give andpeople were receptive to and got
value out of.
So I think after the first sixmonths that one was like it.
It wasn't about the money, itwasn't about the need, it was
about it was a real drive to tobuild something that would help
(22:06):
people.
And maybe my motto or mymission is to enable people, not
enable.
I guess I want people to livewith fewer regrets, and I know
that seems like a negative orthe dark side to go in, but I
want to enable people to livethe life that they want.
That's for me.
(22:26):
I'm really passionate aboutthat.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (22:29):
And me too, because I don't want to
look back.
Who does want to look back andthink what if I did that or I
could have done this?
I think there is an element ofthat in there that you don't
you're.
You're empowering people.
You know that word again,empowering people to pursue the
line of work and the mode ofwork that they want to pursue.
And it's better to go down thatline, isn't it, than just not
even try.
So yeah it's a great thing.
(22:50):
And while we're on the sort oftopic of the subject of business
, tell us a bit about RemoteRebellion, the business Can we
talk through that?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (23:01):
Sure , I mentioned before, I started
off doing one-to-one.
After about a year, that's whenI realised, ok, I want to build
a group programme so that it'sscalable and so I could help
more people who maybe couldn'tafford doing the one-to-one.
So I created a program.
I read everything online.
I've created a program in onemonth and, yeah, I thought it
would take me two or three.
(23:22):
And it took me seven.
Yeah, because I wouldn't say Iwas a perfectionist, but I
really.
The more I was adding to it, Iwas like, oh, and I could tell
them about this, and I couldtell them about that.
And it ended up building out to10 modules and we don't even
get to the CV part until modulefive.
So there's quite a lot offoundational groundwork of what
is recruitment.
(23:42):
This is how we work and reallypeek behind the curtain of how
the average recruiter thinks andhow they work, and I don't
mince my words in it as well.
So there's not a lot of fluff,quite a northern lass.
I like to just say it how it isas well.
So there's not a lot of fluff,quite a northern lass.
I like to just say it how it is.
And that can be a pro and a consometimes, because I can be and
I will say to people when Ihave a discovery call listen,
(24:03):
I'm not going to be everyone'scup of tea, sometimes I can be a
little bit too blunt and direct, but it's coming out of a place
of love and because I want youto do well.
So just a warning, a warningcreated the program and realized
the value that having groupcalls and having a community was
in the process.
I really didn't think it wasgoing to be as valuable as what
(24:25):
it is and what people aregetting from.
That is, yes, I can give themadvice and I can give them
support, I can give them thatmotivation, but I'm not the one
looking for a remote job.
So, as much as I can empathizewith them, I'm not going, I'm
not in the trenches with them.
So but actually by joining acommunity of other people who
are in this, with them they'researching for a job as well and
(24:45):
they're getting the knockbacks,they're getting the rejections,
they're getting ghosted, all ofthe things that comes with job
searching.
At the moment, other people canspeak with them and have
conversations with them aboutthat, so they can ask me advice
on those weekly calls, but theycan also have offline
conversations with these otherpeople and actually connect and
share jobs with each other andshare advice, and I just had
(25:06):
this interview.
What do they think they meantby this?
So that's been big having thatcommunity and being able to
shift on there as well, and thatplatform has opened up to be
able to then do a really a morebasic option where it's just the
program, just the onlineprogram itself for people in
lower income countries and maybecan't afford the other bits.
So that's the free mainservices is what I'm offering at
(25:28):
the moment and if people wantto do one-off, one-to-one
sessions, I do that.
But I always do a caveat that,like this, one session isn't
going to potentially fix yourissues.
You can come in and askquestions, but you can't expect
after a one-hour session to justhave all of your problems
solved.
So I do offer those one-to-onesessions with that caveat if
they want to do that.
So that's where it is at themoment, but I really in the near
(25:52):
future I want to move back intodoing recruitment again and I
want remote rebellion to be thego-to place for companies
looking for remote talent andfor remote wanting to, for
people wanting to work remotely.
Because I miss recruitment.
I'm good at it and I loveconnecting people.
I love matchmaking.
It's a matchmaking service inmy opinion it is.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (26:13):
No , I love that, I love your ethos
and I love what you're settingup and what you've got
established.
I wanted to ask what was thequestion I was going to ask next
.
Yes, yeah, so I know youmentioned tech is an area that
has been in your background, butwhat kind of people go through
your programme in terms of?
I know you're not limited todigital nomads.
(26:34):
Is there a typical kind of typeof person?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (26:38):
I thought there would be.
I thought it would be Europeanin their 30s wanting to work
from anywhere.
And do you know what, like I'vebeen, I'd say it's almost 50 50
split male female.
There's been almost 40different nationalities from
every continent that have beenin the program, which surprised
(26:59):
me.
I thought it would only bemostly European North Americans
but it's been a real mix.
Most people are not from thecountry that they're currently
in, which is quite cool, so thatadds another dynamic.
We've had 21 year old graduatesfrom the UK to 68 year old in
the US, so it's been a real mixand from people who, like I
(27:21):
mentioned before one one personwants to work remotely so she
can care for her partner who'sgot a brain injury.
Someone wanted to spend timewith their kids because they
didn't spend much time withtheir first child and really
didn't want to make the samemistake with the second.
Who want to be digital nomads.
A lot of people want to movefor love because their partner
lives or is from a differentplace and they want to spend
time there.
So, yeah, there's been a realmix what about skills as well?
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (27:45):
Is there a particular skill set
that you go for?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (27:49):
Again , everyone says you're supposed
to niche down.
I like variety.
I like working with a marketingmanager one minute and a
software engineer the next.
I like working with someonewho's a dance choreographer on a
cruise ship, who's never had aremote job and doesn't know what
she wants to do, to a digitaldirector with 20 years of
experience who just wants to dothe same job, but remotely.
So I'd just say, if you, if Ihad to pinpoint the disciplines
(28:14):
that were most common, I wouldsay it's project and delivery
and ops and software engineersand marketing.
But there's a real mix and acommon theme I'm getting with
maybe 80% of my rebels are thatthey don't just want to get a
remote job.
They want to get something thataligns with their values, so
something in social impact,something they're interested in,
(28:36):
and this is why they come to me.
A lot of people come to me andthey can go and get any job
themselves, but people don'twant just any job anymore.
They want something that ismeaningful and that doesn't mean
that they're saving lives.
It just has to mean somethingto them to them.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (28:50):
Yeah , exactly that.
And I know I guess this podcastis not just about the life as
an employee, but you're alsogiving us a perspective of
somebody who has gone out thereand has set up their own
business, and there's not justthat, but has done it always
doing it on a remote basis aswell, so that that is quite
(29:12):
scary to some people.
Clearly, nothing scares you.
Some people are quite fearful,I think, of like, taking the
plunge into, like theentrepreneurial route which you
have taken, and one of thethings that you mentioned you on
was that you were talking aboutclients and you weren't really
that concerned about how youwould get clients at that
particular point.
How have you built that now?
(29:33):
Because that's one thing thatlots of people struggle with is
the client side, clientacquisition.
How do you do that now yourself?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (29:40):
now the majority of people are
either through referrals or fromhearing about me on podcasts or
from LinkedIn posts, so I'd saythe majority is from LinkedIn.
So I've started taking LinkedInseriously for the past 18
months and posting every day,and that is anything from me
(30:01):
complaining that companies areposting fake remote jobs I'm
sure you've seen a few of those.
I'm just having a bee in mybonnet about something and,
sorry, if you can hear the dogs,barley dogs, that's okay.
Okay.
So anything from posting aboutthat to giving advice on what
people, what employers, want tosee on a cv, to to highlighting
(30:22):
great remote work opportunities,so people see that content,
something resonates with themand they reach out and we have a
conversation, have a call andthey become a client.
So I've only done paid ads maybeonce and didn't get too much of
a response, and I think themain reason for that is people
(30:43):
are coming out and finding me,so they're making the effort to
go and search for either me orsomeone like me or someone that
can help them, whereas ifsomething flashes up in an ad
and it's in your face, it's madeeasy for you a little bit and I
always want to just take on anyclient, any rebel, because they
need to understand there's acertain amount of work that goes
into this.
I'm not going to hand themsomething on a silver platter
(31:10):
Because even if I could, even ifI could say, hey, I've set up
an interview for you, alex,you've got to do the work,
you've got to actually put inthe energy and do the research
and interview.
So I don't want people and I'veactually had a call I remember
having a discovery call withsomeone in the UK and I say the
UK because English was his firstlanguage and he said something
along in the first 10 minutes ofso how are you going to get me
a job?
And I was like I'm going tostop you there, I'm not going to
do anything he's like.
But I'll pay yeah and he's like,yeah, but I'm paying you and
(31:31):
I'm like you're not paying meanything because I'm not signing
you up, because this is not howit works.
Being comfortable turning awayclients was like the moment
where I was just like, okay,this is important because I, if
I get people who join theespecially if they're on a group
program and they say one badapple spoils the bunch they're
coming in with a bad attitudeand they're like this should
(31:52):
come to me because I want it.
They're not the kind of peoplewho are going to succeed.
The people who are going tosucceed are like the people who
are adamant that this is whatthey want and they're going to
find a way to do it and they'regoing to put the energy in
because it's not easy.
Now that that's been importantfor me and sorry if I waffled
around the answer to yourquestion no, you didn't, you
didn't.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (32:10):
And I think, the other thing I want
because, like I said, I I haveto I'll be honest with you.
I'm, I've been, I'm on ajourney myself right now and
I've I've done a mixture ofentrepreneurial stuff and I've
done a mixture of remotefreelancing, etc.
And it's I from a personalstandpoint.
I know how, when you'rethinking about employment, the
(32:33):
safety net of employment, yeah,or perceived safety of
employment, employment andstarting an entrepreneurial
venture.
It can, yeah, it can be trickyfor some people.
I know for me as well.
I've got kids, so I'm thinkingto myself, whereas before I was
like in my 20s, 25, 26, I waslike quite risky in a way, but
now you come, you're a bit morerisk averse.
(32:53):
Do you take on people as wellwho, for example?
Or do you advise people on thesort of entrepreneurial side of
things as well, or you justfocused solely on those who are
seeking to get into employment?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (33:06):
yeah , it's funny you should ask that
actually because I did atestimonial video with a rebel
the other day and he got aremote gig, but he also set up
his own business.
And I asked one of thequestions like, but what was the
unexpected benefit you got fromthe remote job academy?
And he said that you helpedencourage me set up my own
(33:28):
business.
And I was like that's not whatI did.
I never talked about that.
I go through the options ofthese are the options you can
get an employment, you can gofreelance or you can set up your
own business.
But that's about as far as Iwent, and he's, I know you
forced me to ask.
You asked me the rightquestions that made me think
what do I actually want and howdo I get that so?
So I was like, oh okay, somaybe this could be a new
direction, because I thinkentrepreneurship gets what's the
(33:51):
word I'm looking for.
They big it up to be somewhat's the word I'm?
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ (33:55):
looking for, I think, overinflated
almost.
I think, sometimes and YouTubepeople coming on and saying
here's my Lamborghini orwhatever it is.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (34:03):
Yeah , it gets highlighted to be some
and I had this naive vision oflike, when I'm my own boss, I'm
going to work for two hours aday and then I'm going to surf
and I'm going to sit in ahammock and I'm like I work more
hours now than I did as anemployee Way more hours so and I
met for a coffee with someone Imet on LinkedIn the other day
and she decided to move awayfrom her business that she'd set
(34:25):
up that was fairly successful.
She stepped away from itcompletely after years of
building.
She's like I just want to workfor someone else.
I just I don't want that beingan entrepreneur, and I think
that takes incredible strengthto be able to step away from
something you built and say doyou know what?
This is not for me anymore.
This is not serving me.
I'm quite happy to just beworking for someone else.
(34:45):
And I think that takes a lot of, I guess, a lot of putting the
ego aside.
I don't know.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (34:54):
Have you been weighing up which
direction is best for you?
Which is best for me?
Yes, but for me, my pull isalways towards entrepreneurship.
I'm always being pulled, but atthe same time, like I said,
there's a little thing saying,oh, I can do that job, so
there's that pull as well.
But for me right now I'mthinking because I used to do I
used to have a job board, forexample I used to do recruit
(35:16):
recruitment as a freelancer andthen I thought I went back into
the job market again and I gotprobably got a bit comfortable
in the job market in 2008 we allknow what happened in 2008 and
then the pandemic and things.
Then you realize that there's nosuch thing as much as hard as
it is when you're a businessowner or you're even a
freelancer.
It can be just as hard in in ajob.
(35:39):
Yeah, because, like I said,there's no such thing as a
permanent job.
No, and I actually believe aswell that you have to have more
than one income stream.
This is nothing new.
I'm not saying anythingrevolutionary, but being in a
situation where I've been incorporate life as well as
entrepreneurial life, you haveto have, because there's one
point where I had this.
I had a recruitment businessand I was doing really well and
(36:01):
I like just was just focused ona couple of clients and then the
pandemic came and then justeverything just slowed down.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (36:10):
Yeah .
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (36:11):
So I think that was a harsh lesson
that I learned that, regardlessof whether you're an employee
or you're a sort of anentrepreneur, you need to have
different strands of income tostabilize yourself.
And I think and we don't reallylearn that in school or
anywhere university, no, butit's just a matter of how, I
(36:33):
think is, how do you do that?
And I think one thing thatpeople struggle with I don't
know if you've noticed this, butis finding out is understanding
the what's going to help me.
What's going to help me togenerate money and not just like
money that will help me to justget by, money that's going to
help me to actually thrive.
And another thing I think iswell, I think people, the
perception of some business,especially like solopreneurs,
(36:55):
one-person businesses is thatthey don't really earn that much
money.
Do you know what I mean?
So, through all this sort ofresearch that I'm doing on
podcasting, I'm understandingthat there are more and more
people who are fed up of beinglaid off or fed up of the
commute, whatever it may be, andare deciding to take a
different step entrepreneurship,lean business, whatever it may
(37:16):
be.
That's my long rant.
No, you're totally right.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (37:22):
And I think it is about figuring
out what it is that you want.
What do you want to do withthat money as well?
I think that's an importantthing.
What does Thrive mean to you?
That might be for one personthat they're able to eat in
Michelin star restaurants everyday.
For others, they just want tobe able to not have to look at
the menu prices when they orderat a mid-range restaurant.
It really differs for everyperson.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (37:44):
No , it does, it really does.
And just differs for everyperson.
No, it does, it really does,and just for you as well.
I could so many questions Iwant to ask, but I know we're
starting to run out a bit oftime, but what I wanted to just
add is I suppose we've talkedabout some of the challenges as
well, but is travel, michelle?
Is that still important to you?
Is that still an importantaspect to you, or are you less
on the side of that now?
Michelle Coulson @ R (38:03):
definitely less.
I think the the older I get,the more I want a base and I
want to be settled.
So it's less about the traveland more about the freedom.
So I've been in Bali on and offfor about three years now, but
in between I've done travels toEurope, or just to Europe
actually, and to Australia aswell.
So I think for me it's I'mlooking for my two bases now
(38:26):
because I've realized I like thedifferences between Southeast
Asia and Europe, because itmakes me appreciate.
It makes me appreciate theorder on the roads in the UK
compared to the craziness ofSoutheast Asia.
But then I appreciate the foodmore in Southeast Asia compared
to Europe and that I don't thinkthere's one perfect place, even
(38:48):
for a perfect place for oneperson.
I think I appreciate both morewhen I get the differences.
So for me that's what I wouldwant and just the freedom to be
able to travel.
But I don't have that same urgethat I did in my late 20s, for
example, of I need to see newplaces and I need to go here,
like sometimes I'm like, oh,getting on a flight.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (39:07):
That sounds like an effort no, yeah
it is, I think, same with me.
I used to probably travelaround a bit more when I was
younger and be willing to go todifferent places.
But to you, a base is what Ihave my base in London, but I
think at the same time it'd benice to have a little base in I
don't know, portugal maybe, andholiday home there and come back
(39:29):
to that would be nice For you.
What's the future hold, then,for you and for your business?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (39:38):
I think for me.
I've been setting my personaland professional goals recently,
so this is quite timely.
I want to have two bases I wantto have my goal for this year
is to have a place where I cansee the ocean and hear the ocean
.
I want to go to sleep at nightand I want to hear the ocean.
So I don't know which countryor which ocean that's going to
be, but that's a goal for my,for me.
(39:59):
And then I want to have asecond base.
So if that place is in Europe,then have a second base in
Southeast Asia and and I want tohave those two homes, those two
bases, stable.
That's a really important thingfor me and for the business I
think I mentioned on it beforebeing the go-to place for
companies wanting to hireremotely and for people looking
for remote work, whether that'sfreelance, whether that's
(40:21):
permanent, being that householdname, because I'm realizing
people talk about legacy andhaving kids to to have a legacy
in life.
Like I, at the moment I don'tthink I want children, so I
don't have the legacy in there,but I want to have remote
rebellion as a legacy that Ileave, just so I had my mark on
the world and this is what Icontributed, this is what I did,
(40:41):
yeah, so that's where it'sgoing and that's the direction
it's heading in.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ r (40:46):
Sounds great.
I think you are forging yourpath, forging your legacy there.
It definitely is.
You're making an imprint and Ithink, yeah, really glad to have
had you on the show today.
I'm going to obviously leaveyour details in the show notes,
and where's the best place forpeople who are looking to
connect with you, Michelle, ifyou want to drop some URLs or
what that is your socials?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (41:08):
So on all socials you'll find me
Remote Rebellion.
So LinkedIn, Michelle, RemoteRebellion, Website
remoterebellioncom, andInstagram, I believe, is Remote
Rebellion as well.
So they're the main threeplaces to find me.
I'm not really on Facebook orTikTok or anything, so they're
the main points of contact.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (41:26):
Excellent , or TikTok or anything.
So they're the main points ofcontact.
Excellent, I'll be leaving yourdetails in the show notes
Anyhow people can reach out.
But, michelle, it's been ablast.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
I've got so many more questionsthat I could have asked but we
were out of time.
But, yeah, lovely to see youand all the best.
Michelle Coulson @ Remot (41:40):
Lovely , thank you.
Hey everybody.
It's Alex from the Remote WorkLife podcast.
I have with me today somebodywho I've known for a number of
years and I've been meaning toinvite onto the podcast,
michelle Coulson.
And Michelle is somebody who,as I said, I've been meaning to
invite on the podcast for yearsand years.
I'm so happy to have her onhere today.
(00:24):
She's the chief remote rebeland founder of remote rebellion
and we're very similar in termsof what we do.
But, as I said, I've knownMichelle and I've followed her
post for a number of years.
I just wanted to have her onthe podcast and lots of people
say good things about Michelle.
So happy to have you here today, michelle, thank you.
Michelle Coulson @ Remot (00:44):
Thanks for having me that's good to
hear that I'm being talked aboutin a positive and lots of
people say good things aboutMichelle.
So happy to have you here today, Michelle, Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
That's good to hear that I'mbeing talked about in a positive
light.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (00:51):
Nice to hear, Definitely, and just
before we got on, we weretalking about where we are.
Where are you today?
Where are you situated?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (00:59):
I am in sunny Bali today.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (01:03):
Oh lovely.
I'm in London.
It is quite sunny today, butnot quite as warm, I guess, as
Barley, but no good to have youhere.
As ever, we want to find outabout you.
This podcast is all about youwhere you got to, your
experiences of remote work, etc.
I've got quite a few questionsI want to ask you.
I don't know if you're going tohave time to ask all of them in
the time that we have, butwe'll do our best.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (01:25):
So , for those who don't know, just
tell us a bit about yourself,michelle, tell us about what
you're doing sure, in a nutshell, the short version, I am
enabling and empowering peopleto work remotely so that they
can live the life that theydesign, instead of one that's
designed for them based around ajob, based around a location.
(01:48):
And, yeah, giving them that notjust the encouragement and the
confidence that they can jumpoutside of that nine-to-five
office life, but also givingthem the tools and resources and
connecting them with the rightpeople so that they can work
remotely.
And that doesn't mean that theyhave to be digital nomads
travelling around the world.
That might just be that theywant to stay at home with their
kids and see their kids grow up,raise their children as they
(02:12):
want to, or people who want tobe at home with their pets, look
after an elderly parent justwhatever remote work and
whatever freedom and flexibilitymeans to that person.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (02:23):
And that's the key, isn't it?
I think that's what, for me,remote work is about, and, yuzi,
you're touching on that.
There's so many differentversions of what remote work is
Digital nomad, work from home,co-working space and freedom is
the thing that I think more andmore people are looking for in
(02:43):
in their lives, and especiallywhen it comes to work.
People are realizing now thatthey don't want to be
necessarily tied to a particularlocation.
They don't want to necessarilybe in an office not saying
there's anything wrong withbeing in an office, but I think
each and every person thrives indifferent environments.
So I think, definitely, you'reempowering that, you're creating
(03:03):
that sort of that movement, oryou're a force behind that
movement.
So it's to me, it's great.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (03:08):
Thank you.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (03:09):
So now, something I want to know,
michelle, is what got you tothis point.
How did you get to the pointwhere you're in the position
that you are today?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (03:20):
So I was working in well before I
got into recruitment.
So I was working in recruitmentfor about seven years before I
established Remote Rebellion.
There was a bit of a backstorybefore that.
I have always been a lover, apassionate about travel.
I just, I absolutely lovetravel and when I left
university I was trying to findevery way I possibly could to
(03:41):
stay traveling and I was doingrandom jobs, from working in a
Great Dane kennels in Sydney toworking in a burger joint in the
middle of nowhere in theoutback to campsite courier in
Italy, all sorts.
I did many random jobs to justkeep traveling, but they were
really low-paid jobs and quitelabor-intensive and not
necessarily things that Iactually wanted to do.
(04:02):
So remote work wasn't reallywasn't a thing to do.
So remote work wasn't reallywasn't a thing people spoke
about then, so it wasn't reallysomething I knew about.
And I carried on living thisnot proper job until kind of
late 20s and realised, okay, Iwant to be able to buy a house,
I want to do all of the thingsthat you're supposed to do in
your late 20s supposed to do.
(04:23):
Do all of the things thatyou're supposed to do in your
late 20s supposed to do and getdo all of the things that you're
supposed to do.
So I got a proper job inrecruitment.
Thought I was just going to doit for a couple of years and do
it for a bit of money and thentravel again, but I actually
really enjoyed it and I realizedI was good at it as well.
I think you come from a agencyrecruitment background yourself,
right?
so I do so there's the pros andthe cons of that and I found
(04:43):
myself getting sucked into thenegative sides of that and,
ashamedly, actually, I caughtmyself.
I was a contract recruiter, soactually treating people for my
measurements and my numbers andgetting people into interviews
even if I knew they weren't theright fit for the role because I
had my KPIs to hit, and itmakes me feel a bit like queasy.
Stop talking about it now,because it's a whole different
(05:04):
version of me.
I always empathize with agencyrecruiters because I think you
get turned into the beast likeyou become the beast because
that's the environment you're in, right.
So I got a bit.
I ended up leaving that job andwent on a cycle through Europe
for five weeks and found myself,or whatever you want to call it
, and it ended up going intoin-house recruitment and that
(05:27):
reignited my not I wouldn't saylove for recruitment, but
reignited like realizing I'mactually good at this and this
doesn't have to be the dark sideof recruitment that it had gone
into.
And I worked in-house for anapp development company.
Absolutely loved it.
I got to hire all of the peopleI got to work around with me.
I had an awesome officeenvironment, great team, great
(05:50):
people I worked with and I justI loved it.
But then it was about 2016-2017.
I realized remote work wassomething more and more people
were talking about.
I was hiring developers, andthat was back in the days.
I don't know if you remember2016-2017.
Developers had the power theywere like.
Tell me what you're going tooffer me.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (06:09):
I don't know if I'm gonna, I'm
not if.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (06:10):
I'm gonna work for you.
What do you have to give?
And I'm like what, this, what?
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (06:14):
is this.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (06:15):
So Brexit was around that time so
we couldn't get developers fromEurope, so it was really hard to
hire unless we were able tooffer the big bucks or offer
more flexibility.
So I really pushed and naggedwith my current employer.
I was like we need to do thisremote, we need to have flexible
working.
So back 2017, I got there inthe end after a lot of
(06:36):
persistence, and we're thenallowed to do up to four days a
week remote.
So I was like, okay, winning,which back then was quite an
achievement.
Then, when the pandemic hit fast, fast forward to 2020,
everyone's working remote, theoffice is closed and I was I'm
really miserable.
Like I realized how unhappy Iwas living in London.
I was in my early 30s.
All of my friends and friendswere moving out to the suburbs,
(06:58):
getting married, having kids,and I didn't want that.
But I didn't know what I didwant and I was like I definitely
don't want it.
I'm really unhappy here.
So I started thinking aboutwhat I wanted, what made me
happy, and that was being by theocean, being by the sea, being
in a warm climate, and I lookedback at my time in Southeast
Asia in the past.
I was.
I was really happy there.
So I thought, okay, the officeis closed, I'm going to go to
(07:18):
Bali.
I'm going to go there for acouple of months until the
inevitable callback comes frommy boss okay, london's opening.
And when that call did come,two months later, I felt sick.
I was like I absolutely do notwant to leave here.
There's, I'm so much happier,I'm more productive, I am
surfing in the morning, I'mspending the days the way I want
(07:39):
to.
It was I was just I was livinglife, but still working eight
hours a day and managing to doboth.
I was having the having it alleight hours a day and managing
to do both.
I was having the having it all,as they say.
And I said to my boss.
I said I can't go back and he'syou can't work from there.
I was like why not?
I've been doing, I've beenworking remotely for the past 18
months.
I don't understand why.
And I always say I imagine thelittle Britain moment of
computer says no, there was not.
Like there was like no realreason.
(08:01):
And I was getting reallyfrustrated, hence the name
rebellion.
I was just like I was peed off.
I was like why?
And that was that, is that it'scompany policy.
I was like, okay, I quit.
And that's when I was like,okay, quit my job.
Didn't have anything to go to,didn't have any savings, I had a
mortgage to pay in London, butI just knew I'd find a way love
(08:23):
it so go on.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (08:25):
I didn't realize you'd you've
done that, though that'ssomething that's.
But I think when you have thosefeelings, you have to follow
those feelings and I think foryou, you, for me, just listening
to that little monologue thereyou just I understand that
you're a determined person.
You know what you want, yeah,and I have a feeling you know
how to get what you want as well.
But at that point when you quityour job, get what you want as
well, but at that point when youquit your job, did you have any
(08:48):
sort of plan at all?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (08:50):
Yeah , I thought, ok, I'll do some
freelancing recruitment, I'llhelp startups hire remotely.
That was the idea I had in myhead.
I didn't have anything solid,but I was like I'll figure this
out, I'll find a way.
And that was mid, sorry, so itwas about April 2021, june 2021.
So that's when a lot of thecompanies that had were coming
out of this lockdown.
(09:11):
Companies were hiring again.
So recruitment was in a goodplace then and I just figured
I'll find a way.
I've got a good network.
I've been in recruitment forseven years.
I'm good at what I do.
I'll find a way, and I alwaystalk about this like safety net
as well.
I feel like anyone who takes theplunge and does something
without having it takes a plungeto do something out of their
comfort zone.
(09:31):
There's different levels ofsafety net and I figured I don't
have rich parents or a partnerto support me.
It was all on me.
But what I did have is if can Iswear on this?
Um, if, like, shit hit the fanand everything went to pot, I
would be able to move in with mysister, live in my nephew's
(09:52):
playroom and I would have foodon the table.
I'd have a roof over my head,I'd have my family around me
that loved me and I'd have foodon the table.
Some people don't have thatsafety net, so I think it's
almost like a crying shame ifyou don't make the most of this
and you don't take the plunge,because what's the worst that
can happen?
I'll lose my house, I won'thave any money, I won't have any
savings, but I've still got allof these things.
(10:14):
So to me it that was likewhat's the worst that can happen
.
That's the way I assess that.
And some people don't even havethat safety net.
Some people, literally, if itdoesn't work out, they end up
homeless.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ r (10:23):
That's like next level right yeah, and
it's, and I think that's a goodpoint.
Actually, you have to.
I don't know what you think ofthis, but if you're in that
situation where you're trying tofigure out what to do next, you
have to take your circumstancesinto consideration, not
overthink them, but you stillhave to, and it sounds like
that's what you were doing, butalso, but also it sounds like
(10:43):
you're a pragmatic person aswell, in the sense that, or even
a glass half full person,because you're thinking to
yourself what's the worst thatcould happen?
It's going to.
Things aren't going to.
The world's not going to openup and consume you.
You're going to find a way,sort of thing.
No, I like that, I like that.
Okay.
(11:06):
So that I like that, okay.
So how did you go from then?
because when you were talkingabout recruitment just then, and
contract recruiting, I had someflashbacks there because I used
to work as a contract recruitermyself, where you're chasing
the sort of the job comes in andyou're like Alex, there's a job
in and you're rushing aroundtrying to find that CV.
Call them up before anybodyelse calls them up.
Yeah, get them through to the,you know get those kpi sort of
yeah, I had a bit of a flashbackthere.
But recruitment, though, Iguess so many skills that it
(11:29):
gives you and as much as thereare a lot of bad recruiters that
are out there, and it appearsthat most of the bad ones, in my
humble opinion, are agencyrecruiters.
There are good ones, but youreally have to pick out the,
what you have to really look forthe good ones.
It does give you some greatskills, doesn't it?
It gives you great skills,which obviously you have.
(11:50):
So then, how did you?
How did the remote rebellion?
What's the genesis of remoterebellion?
From that background inrecruitment and sales, yeah I
was.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (12:00):
I thought, okay, so I need to
find some companies that willallow me to work remotely doing
recruitment.
So I was considering freelance,I was considering permanent,
but I had a real hard timefinding companies that would
allow me to work remotely fromBali.
Some of them were like, yeah,we're remote, but you need to be
in the UK and I'm like whyYou've got all of these employee
(12:21):
records?
And again, I don't agree withjust having a no unless you've
got a good reason.
Give me a good reason why it'sa no that you've got all of
these employee of records.
I don't say no for an answer,as you can tell, unless you give
me a good reason.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (12:33):
I can tell yeah.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (12:36):
So you've got all these employee
of records, you can go freelance, you can.
There's ways around the wholetax and legal reasons which a
lot of companies cite as thereasons for not allowing work
from anywhere, and essentiallythey just don't want it enough
and maybe they don't likediversity.
I'm just gonna dump that inthere a little bit with a bit of
fire so that I was gettingannoyed about that.
But I did manage to find acouple of companies that would
(12:57):
allow me to work remotely and Idid freelancing with them.
But then it got my cogs turning.
I was like, if I'm strugglingso much and I know the market
I've been in recruitment forseven years, I know how it works
, I'm well networked so if I'mstruggling with this, then the
average person's going to bereally struggling to find remote
work as well.
So I that kind of went in myhead a little bit.
I'm like, huh, okay, and then Iwas.
(13:18):
I met there's a lot of coachesin Bali and there's a lot of bad
ones, and I I my first coachthat I hired was a bit of a
crappy one, but he did plantsome seed in my head because he
was a coach of coaches, whichthere's a lot of and he was
putting me into a box of saying,oh so, tell me what you want to
do, tell me what you're good at.
And he said, oh so you'reessentially a coach.
(13:39):
And I'm like no, not really.
And he's like are you?
And he gave me that label andit didn't sit well with me, but
he made some good points.
If you're teaching people howto do this, you're doing that.
And I was like okay, I don'tthink I'm a coach in the way of
a qualified coach.
I think I'm a fitness personaltrainer coach and I'm like do
these exercises, do this?
(13:59):
I'm more like a trainer than athan a coach, because I think
they're very different and Idon't want to undervalue and
undersell what good, qualifiedcoaches are.
But he planted that idea andthen on a boat trip it sounds
like quite magical, but it wason a boat trip around the Komodo
Islands I had this ping.
It was really nice.
I had this ping moment and thislight bulb moment of yeah, I
(14:21):
can help people on their journeyhere.
I can actually sit with them inthis situation.
I was in and be like okay, whatis it you want?
What do you want to do?
What does life look like foryou and what do you like?
Not in a life situation, butlike.
What do you want?
Like we were talking aboutbefore.
What does freedom andflexibility look like to you?
What does an ideal job andcompany look like to you?
And help them find theopportunities, know where to
(14:44):
look, help network with them.
Help them to network, sorry,and really connect them with the
right people so that they canfind a good match for what they
want.
Reverse headhunting, really.
Rather than finding a personfor a role, I'm working with
someone to find the rightopportunities, the right
companies and roles for them.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (15:02):
Beautiful .
I love that and I think it'sthe principles of job.
I don't know it's a catch-22,because a lot of people who are
looking for a job there are,there's sort of like a segment
of people who want somebody todo the stuff, all the grunt work
for them and look for the joband help them write their CV for
(15:23):
them, get in touch with aclient.
But there's like that sweetspot which you've just described
, which is essentiallyempowering people to do that for
themselves.
And it sounds like that's whatyou, that's what you're doing,
whilst showing them, giving themlike the rudiments and the sort
of not the rudiments the sortof roadmap to to go from where
they are to where they want tobe.
(15:44):
And yet a lot of people, a lotof people yeah, it's lots of
people struggle with that andyeah, for you.
Then, when you had that ahamoment, what did you then?
What did you do next after that?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (15:55):
I didn't know what it was gonna
look like, I just knew I wasgonna help people and do you
know it's really funny peoplelike, how did you get your first
client?
I was like I actually don'tremember and it's really weird
that I don't remember it beingso much of an effort, which I
sound really arrogant saying,and I feel a bit guilty having
that.
Don't be guilty no I love it.
(16:16):
I just feel a little bit likeand my very first client was
someone that I worked with atthe same company and we worked
on a one-to-one basis and wewould go through everything
one-to-one, and I was winging ita little bit because I was like
, okay, I know I can help himwith this, but I want to know
first of all what he needs helpwith.
And I didn't yet have that data, like I do now, two and a half
(16:37):
years later or longer, of whatpeople actually struggle with.
So the more people I workedwith on a one-to-one basis, I'm
like, ah, so people arestruggling with finding the
opportunities, figuring out whatthey want, knowing how to reach
out to people, knowing how toget some feedback and things
(17:00):
like that.
It wasn't till I worked withmaybe 10, 15 clients on a
one-to-one basis.
I'm like, okay, I'm getting acommon theme now of what people
really need help with.
And confidence is such a big oneand it's one that I, ironically
, I didn't think I didn't havethe confidence to think I could
help people with theirconfidence, and it just it
happened as a happy accidentthat once you're looking at the
two parts, we're very easy andquick to say I'm not good at
(17:24):
that.
I don't have experience here.
I mean, who would hire me withthis?
All of like negative self-talkwe're all really good at that.
I'm really bad at saying whatwe're good at, because we've
been told, especially in Europeand especially in Eastern Europe
, from at because we've beentold, especially in Europe and
especially in Eastern Europe,from the people I've been
speaking with of, you know, thistall poppy syndrome of don't
big yourself up too much, don'tbe so cocky.
And we like it feels icky forus to shout about our
(17:46):
achievements and what we're goodat, so encouraging people to
first highlight it with them.
Okay, so you said you did thisand this.
That means you're great at that, it means you're good at that
and you could do that, and like,ah, oh, I didn't think of it
that way.
So it's so like improving theirconfidence in that way.
But also, once they become moreskilled in knowing more about
(18:08):
how recruitment works, how theprocess works, they become more
competent, which then entail itthen leads to them being more
confident in things.
So that's had a massive part toplay in it.
It's not just the logisticalimprove your cv and bob's your
uncle.
There's a lot more to it.
There's a lot more, especiallywith remote work, because it's
become so much more competitivein the last couple of years.
(18:30):
You really can't.
Just you, don't you.
It's not enough to have a goodcv anymore.
All these like cv writingservices.
So many people ask me can youjust rewrite my cv?
I'm like I can, but it'sprobably not going to help you
that much.
So you could have the best cvin the world.
If you're not well connectedand you're not putting yourself
out there and you're not able tosell yourself, then and that's
(18:50):
what it is you're selling andmarketing yourself and it's a.
It sounds a bit icky to say,but that's you're offering a
service and you're selling thatservice you know what I think
you're more than a coach from.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remote (19:00):
I mean you're because I think,
especially with this again, thejob search it requires more than
just a coach.
I think I think nothing againstcareer coaches.
I think they do a really goodjob.
However, career coaches willjust almost point you in the
right direction.
(19:20):
I think there's much moreneeded with this, with what
we're talking about, in what youdo actually, in that you're
instilling confidence, like Isaid before, showing the
processes, telling them aboutthe background of how the actual
job search cycle works, andtelling them that you can't lean
the actual job search cycleworks, and telling them that you
can't lean on your CV, youcan't rely on all these
different things.
So I think, from what you'resaying, it's what you're doing
(19:41):
is much more than coaching.
It's coaching plus.
And then it's for another thingthat you said that really
resonated with me as well isthat the confidence side of
things.
You said that you were almosttrying to get the confidence
that you could give peopleconfidence to get a job.
That's something that Iactually also suffer with,
because I'm pretty confidentwhen it comes to, like what you
(20:02):
say, the processes, cv, allthese different kind of things,
but when it comes to me beingconfident, I actually sometimes
undervalue myself in terms ofwhat I have to offer.
It's quite funny when I'mtrying to, I'm instilling
confidence in others at the sametime.
Maybe I need a coach.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (20:19):
If you don't have one already, I
would definitely recommendgetting one, because it's really
made a massive difference to meof just reaching out and
speaking to an expert who knowshow to get the most out of you.
And that's essentially what itis, and that's why people hire
personal trainers.
Yes, they could go and go onYouTube and learn the moves
themselves, but actually havingsomeone there who's tweaking and
guiding and treating you as anindividual, I think it's
(20:44):
invaluable.
I've definitely I feel likeI've upped my game since getting
coaching from someone else.
I'm able, like it's empoweredme more to know the bits that
I'm good at, and I can then,yeah, deliver to other people
and something I was going to askyou, which is because you were
on the.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (21:00):
You were at the time when you were
thinking about remote rebellion,even though it wasn't probably
wasn't called remote rebellion.
Then you were on the cusp ofalmost shall I go back into
employment or shall I just do itmyself?
And I guess the push for youwas I can't find none of these
people who are hiring are goingto allow me to work the way I
want.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (21:21):
Yes and no.
I actually did have twofreelance gigs that allowed me
to work from wherever I wanted,allowed me to be, and one of
them was actually paying reallywell.
I think in the early days itwas paying me more than I ended
up getting from remote rallyingin the beginning.
It wasn't out of a need.
Actually, it was more out of apassion of this is something
people need and I think I've gotthis to give and it really for
(21:46):
the first six months maybe Ididn't take it so serious.
I was like, oh, I'll just do abit of coaching here and there
and I didn't see it as abusiness, but I knew there was
something I could give andpeople were receptive to and got
value out of.
So I think after the first sixmonths that one was like it.
It wasn't about the money, itwasn't about the need, it was
about it was a real drive to tobuild something that would help
(22:06):
people.
And maybe my motto or mymission is to enable people, not
enable.
I guess I want people to livewith fewer regrets, and I know
that seems like a negative orthe dark side to go in, but I
want to enable people to livethe life that they want.
That's for me.
(22:26):
I'm really passionate aboutthat.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (22:29):
And me too, because I don't want to
look back.
Who does want to look back andthink what if I did that or I
could have done this?
I think there is an element ofthat in there that you don't
you're.
You're empowering people.
You know that word again,empowering people to pursue the
line of work and the mode ofwork that they want to pursue.
And it's better to go down thatline, isn't it, than just not
even try.
So yeah it's a great thing.
(22:50):
And while we're on the sort oftopic of the subject of business
, tell us a bit about RemoteRebellion, the business Can we
talk through that?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (23:01):
Sure , I mentioned before, I started
off doing one-to-one.
After about a year, that's whenI realised, ok, I want to build
a group programme so that it'sscalable and so I could help
more people who maybe couldn'tafford doing the one-to-one.
So I created a program.
I read everything online.
I've created a program in onemonth and, yeah, I thought it
would take me two or three.
(23:22):
And it took me seven.
Yeah, because I wouldn't say Iwas a perfectionist, but I
really.
The more I was adding to it, Iwas like, oh, and I could tell
them about this, and I couldtell them about that.
And it ended up building out to10 modules and we don't even
get to the CV part until modulefive.
So there's quite a lot offoundational groundwork of what
is recruitment.
(23:42):
This is how we work and reallypeek behind the curtain of how
the average recruiter thinks andhow they work, and I don't
mince my words in it as well.
So there's not a lot of fluff,quite a northern lass.
I like to just say it how it isas well.
So there's not a lot of fluff,quite a northern lass.
I like to just say it how it is.
And that can be a pro and a consometimes, because I can be and
I will say to people when Ihave a discovery call listen,
(24:03):
I'm not going to be everyone'scup of tea, sometimes I can be a
little bit too blunt and direct, but it's coming out of a place
of love and because I want youto do well.
So just a warning, a warningcreated the program and realized
the value that having groupcalls and having a community was
in the process.
I really didn't think it wasgoing to be as valuable as what
(24:25):
it is and what people aregetting from.
That is, yes, I can give themadvice and I can give them
support, I can give them thatmotivation, but I'm not the one
looking for a remote job.
So, as much as I can empathizewith them, I'm not going, I'm
not in the trenches with them.
So but actually by joining acommunity of other people who
are in this, with them they'researching for a job as well and
(24:45):
they're getting the knockbacks,they're getting the rejections,
they're getting ghosted, all ofthe things that comes with job
searching.
At the moment, other people canspeak with them and have
conversations with them aboutthat, so they can ask me advice
on those weekly calls, but theycan also have offline
conversations with these otherpeople and actually connect and
share jobs with each other andshare advice, and I just had
(25:06):
this interview.
What do they think they meantby this?
So that's been big having thatcommunity and being able to
shift on there as well, and thatplatform has opened up to be
able to then do a really a morebasic option where it's just the
program, just the onlineprogram itself for people in
lower income countries and maybecan't afford the other bits.
So that's the free mainservices is what I'm offering at
(25:28):
the moment and if people wantto do one-off, one-to-one
sessions, I do that.
But I always do a caveat that,like this, one session isn't
going to potentially fix yourissues.
You can come in and askquestions, but you can't expect
after a one-hour session to justhave all of your problems
solved.
So I do offer those one-to-onesessions with that caveat if
they want to do that.
So that's where it is at themoment, but I really in the near
(25:52):
future I want to move back intodoing recruitment again and I
want remote rebellion to be thego-to place for companies
looking for remote talent andfor remote wanting to, for
people wanting to work remotely.
Because I miss recruitment.
I'm good at it and I loveconnecting people.
I love matchmaking.
It's a matchmaking service inmy opinion it is.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (26:13):
No , I love that, I love your ethos
and I love what you're settingup and what you've got
established.
I wanted to ask what was thequestion I was going to ask next
.
Yes, yeah, so I know youmentioned tech is an area that
has been in your background, butwhat kind of people go through
your programme in terms of?
I know you're not limited todigital nomads.
(26:34):
Is there a typical kind of typeof person?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (26:38):
I thought there would be.
I thought it would be Europeanin their 30s wanting to work
from anywhere.
And do you know what, like I'vebeen, I'd say it's almost 50 50
split male female.
There's been almost 40different nationalities from
every continent that have beenin the program, which surprised
(26:59):
me.
I thought it would only bemostly European North Americans
but it's been a real mix.
Most people are not from thecountry that they're currently
in, which is quite cool, so thatadds another dynamic.
We've had 21 year old graduatesfrom the UK to 68 year old in
the US, so it's been a real mixand from people who, like I
(27:21):
mentioned before one one personwants to work remotely so she
can care for her partner who'sgot a brain injury.
Someone wanted to spend timewith their kids because they
didn't spend much time withtheir first child and really
didn't want to make the samemistake with the second.
Who want to be digital nomads.
A lot of people want to movefor love because their partner
lives or is from a differentplace and they want to spend
time there.
So, yeah, there's been a realmix what about skills as well?
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (27:45):
Is there a particular skill set
that you go for?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (27:49):
Again , everyone says you're supposed
to niche down.
I like variety.
I like working with a marketingmanager one minute and a
software engineer the next.
I like working with someonewho's a dance choreographer on a
cruise ship, who's never had aremote job and doesn't know what
she wants to do, to a digitaldirector with 20 years of
experience who just wants to dothe same job, but remotely.
So I'd just say, if you, if Ihad to pinpoint the disciplines
(28:14):
that were most common, I wouldsay it's project and delivery
and ops and software engineersand marketing.
But there's a real mix and acommon theme I'm getting with
maybe 80% of my rebels are thatthey don't just want to get a
remote job.
They want to get something thataligns with their values, so
something in social impact,something they're interested in,
(28:36):
and this is why they come to me.
A lot of people come to me andthey can go and get any job
themselves, but people don'twant just any job anymore.
They want something that ismeaningful and that doesn't mean
that they're saving lives.
It just has to mean somethingto them to them.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (28:50):
Yeah , exactly that.
And I know I guess this podcastis not just about the life as
an employee, but you're alsogiving us a perspective of
somebody who has gone out thereand has set up their own
business, and there's not justthat, but has done it always
doing it on a remote basis aswell, so that that is quite
(29:12):
scary to some people.
Clearly, nothing scares you.
Some people are quite fearful,I think, of like, taking the
plunge into, like theentrepreneurial route which you
have taken, and one of thethings that you mentioned you on
was that you were talking aboutclients and you weren't really
that concerned about how youwould get clients at that
particular point.
How have you built that now?
(29:33):
Because that's one thing thatlots of people struggle with is
the client side, clientacquisition.
How do you do that now yourself?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (29:40):
now the majority of people are
either through referrals or fromhearing about me on podcasts or
from LinkedIn posts, so I'd saythe majority is from LinkedIn.
So I've started taking LinkedInseriously for the past 18
months and posting every day,and that is anything from me
(30:01):
complaining that companies areposting fake remote jobs I'm
sure you've seen a few of those.
I'm just having a bee in mybonnet about something and,
sorry, if you can hear the dogs,barley dogs, that's okay.
Okay.
So anything from posting aboutthat to giving advice on what
people, what employers, want tosee on a cv, to to highlighting
(30:22):
great remote work opportunities,so people see that content,
something resonates with themand they reach out and we have a
conversation, have a call andthey become a client.
So I've only done paid ads maybeonce and didn't get too much of
a response, and I think themain reason for that is people
(30:43):
are coming out and finding me,so they're making the effort to
go and search for either me orsomeone like me or someone that
can help them, whereas ifsomething flashes up in an ad
and it's in your face, it's madeeasy for you a little bit and I
always want to just take on anyclient, any rebel, because they
need to understand there's acertain amount of work that goes
into this.
I'm not going to hand themsomething on a silver platter
(31:10):
Because even if I could, even ifI could say, hey, I've set up
an interview for you, alex,you've got to do the work,
you've got to actually put inthe energy and do the research
and interview.
So I don't want people and I'veactually had a call I remember
having a discovery call withsomeone in the UK and I say the
UK because English was his firstlanguage and he said something
along in the first 10 minutes ofso how are you going to get me
a job?
And I was like I'm going tostop you there, I'm not going to
do anything he's like.
But I'll pay yeah and he's like,yeah, but I'm paying you and
(31:31):
I'm like you're not paying meanything because I'm not signing
you up, because this is not howit works.
Being comfortable turning awayclients was like the moment
where I was just like, okay,this is important because I, if
I get people who join theespecially if they're on a group
program and they say one badapple spoils the bunch they're
coming in with a bad attitudeand they're like this should
(31:52):
come to me because I want it.
They're not the kind of peoplewho are going to succeed.
The people who are going tosucceed are like the people who
are adamant that this is whatthey want and they're going to
find a way to do it and they'regoing to put the energy in
because it's not easy.
Now that that's been importantfor me and sorry if I waffled
around the answer to yourquestion no, you didn't, you
didn't.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remo (32:10):
And I think, the other thing I want
because, like I said, I I haveto I'll be honest with you.
I'm, I've been, I'm on ajourney myself right now and
I've I've done a mixture ofentrepreneurial stuff and I've
done a mixture of remotefreelancing, etc.
And it's I from a personalstandpoint.
I know how, when you'rethinking about employment, the
(32:33):
safety net of employment, yeah,or perceived safety of
employment, employment andstarting an entrepreneurial
venture.
It can, yeah, it can be trickyfor some people.
I know for me as well.
I've got kids, so I'm thinkingto myself, whereas before I was
like in my 20s, 25, 26, I waslike quite risky in a way, but
now you come, you're a bit morerisk averse.
(32:53):
Do you take on people as wellwho, for example?
Or do you advise people on thesort of entrepreneurial side of
things as well, or you justfocused solely on those who are
seeking to get into employment?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (33:06):
yeah , it's funny you should ask that
actually because I did atestimonial video with a rebel
the other day and he got aremote gig, but he also set up
his own business.
And I asked one of thequestions like, but what was the
unexpected benefit you got fromthe remote job academy?
And he said that you helpedencourage me set up my own
(33:28):
business.
And I was like that's not whatI did.
I never talked about that.
I go through the options ofthese are the options you can
get an employment, you can gofreelance or you can set up your
own business.
But that's about as far as Iwent, and he's, I know you
forced me to ask.
You asked me the rightquestions that made me think
what do I actually want and howdo I get that so?
So I was like, oh okay, somaybe this could be a new
direction, because I thinkentrepreneurship gets what's the
(33:51):
word I'm looking for.
They big it up to be somewhat's the word I'm?
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ (33:55):
looking for, I think, overinflated
almost.
I think, sometimes and YouTubepeople coming on and saying
here's my Lamborghini orwhatever it is.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (34:03):
Yeah , it gets highlighted to be some
and I had this naive vision oflike, when I'm my own boss, I'm
going to work for two hours aday and then I'm going to surf
and I'm going to sit in ahammock and I'm like I work more
hours now than I did as anemployee Way more hours so and I
met for a coffee with someone Imet on LinkedIn the other day
and she decided to move awayfrom her business that she'd set
(34:25):
up that was fairly successful.
She stepped away from itcompletely after years of
building.
She's like I just want to workfor someone else.
I just I don't want that beingan entrepreneur, and I think
that takes incredible strengthto be able to step away from
something you built and say doyou know what?
This is not for me anymore.
This is not serving me.
I'm quite happy to just beworking for someone else.
(34:45):
And I think that takes a lot of, I guess, a lot of putting the
ego aside.
I don't know.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (34:54):
Have you been weighing up which
direction is best for you?
Which is best for me?
Yes, but for me, my pull isalways towards entrepreneurship.
I'm always being pulled, but atthe same time, like I said,
there's a little thing saying,oh, I can do that job, so
there's that pull as well.
But for me right now I'mthinking because I used to do I
used to have a job board, forexample I used to do recruit
(35:16):
recruitment as a freelancer andthen I thought I went back into
the job market again and I gotprobably got a bit comfortable
in the job market in 2008 we allknow what happened in 2008 and
then the pandemic and things.
Then you realize that there's nosuch thing as much as hard as
it is when you're a businessowner or you're even a
freelancer.
It can be just as hard in in ajob.
(35:39):
Yeah, because, like I said,there's no such thing as a
permanent job.
No, and I actually believe aswell that you have to have more
than one income stream.
This is nothing new.
I'm not saying anythingrevolutionary, but being in a
situation where I've been incorporate life as well as
entrepreneurial life, you haveto have, because there's one
point where I had this.
I had a recruitment businessand I was doing really well and
(36:01):
I like just was just focused ona couple of clients and then the
pandemic came and then justeverything just slowed down.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote (36:10):
Yeah .
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (36:11):
So I think that was a harsh lesson
that I learned that, regardlessof whether you're an employee
or you're a sort of anentrepreneur, you need to have
different strands of income tostabilize yourself.
And I think and we don't reallylearn that in school or
anywhere university, no, butit's just a matter of how, I
(36:33):
think is, how do you do that?
And I think one thing thatpeople struggle with I don't
know if you've noticed this, butis finding out is understanding
the what's going to help me.
What's going to help me togenerate money and not just like
money that will help me to justget by, money that's going to
help me to actually thrive.
And another thing I think iswell, I think people, the
perception of some business,especially like solopreneurs,
(36:55):
one-person businesses is thatthey don't really earn that much
money.
Do you know what I mean?
So, through all this sort ofresearch that I'm doing on
podcasting, I'm understandingthat there are more and more
people who are fed up of beinglaid off or fed up of the
commute, whatever it may be, andare deciding to take a
different step entrepreneurship,lean business, whatever it may
(37:16):
be.
That's my long rant.
No, you're totally right.
Michelle Coulson @ Remote R (37:22):
And I think it is about figuring
out what it is that you want.
What do you want to do withthat money as well?
I think that's an importantthing.
What does Thrive mean to you?
That might be for one personthat they're able to eat in
Michelin star restaurants everyday.
For others, they just want tobe able to not have to look at
the menu prices when they orderat a mid-range restaurant.
It really differs for everyperson.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ remot (37:44):
No , it does, it really does.
And just differs for everyperson.
No, it does, it really does,and just for you as well.
I could so many questions Iwant to ask, but I know we're
starting to run out a bit oftime, but what I wanted to just
add is I suppose we've talkedabout some of the challenges as
well, but is travel, michelle?
Is that still important to you?
Is that still an importantaspect to you, or are you less
on the side of that now?
Michelle Coulson @ R (38:03):
definitely less.
I think the the older I get,the more I want a base and I
want to be settled.
So it's less about the traveland more about the freedom.
So I've been in Bali on and offfor about three years now, but
in between I've done travels toEurope, or just to Europe
actually, and to Australia aswell.
So I think for me it's I'mlooking for my two bases now
(38:26):
because I've realized I like thedifferences between Southeast
Asia and Europe, because itmakes me appreciate.
It makes me appreciate theorder on the roads in the UK
compared to the craziness ofSoutheast Asia.
But then I appreciate the foodmore in Southeast Asia compared
to Europe and that I don't thinkthere's one perfect place, even
(38:48):
for a perfect place for oneperson.
I think I appreciate both morewhen I get the differences.
So for me that's what I wouldwant and just the freedom to be
able to travel.
But I don't have that same urgethat I did in my late 20s, for
example, of I need to see newplaces and I need to go here,
like sometimes I'm like, oh,getting on a flight.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ rem (39:07):
That sounds like an effort no, yeah
it is, I think, same with me.
I used to probably travelaround a bit more when I was
younger and be willing to go todifferent places.
But to you, a base is what Ihave my base in London, but I
think at the same time it'd benice to have a little base in I
don't know, portugal maybe, andholiday home there and come back
(39:29):
to that would be nice For you.
What's the future hold, then,for you and for your business?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Reb (39:38):
I think for me.
I've been setting my personaland professional goals recently,
so this is quite timely.
I want to have two bases I wantto have my goal for this year
is to have a place where I cansee the ocean and hear the ocean
.
I want to go to sleep at nightand I want to hear the ocean.
So I don't know which countryor which ocean that's going to
be, but that's a goal for my,for me.
(39:59):
And then I want to have asecond base.
So if that place is in Europe,then have a second base in
Southeast Asia and and I want tohave those two homes, those two
bases, stable.
That's a really important thingfor me and for the business I
think I mentioned on it beforebeing the go-to place for
companies wanting to hireremotely and for people looking
for remote work, whether that'sfreelance, whether that's
(40:21):
permanent, being that householdname, because I'm realizing
people talk about legacy andhaving kids to to have a legacy
in life.
Like I, at the moment I don'tthink I want children, so I
don't have the legacy in there,but I want to have remote
rebellion as a legacy that Ileave, just so I had my mark on
the world and this is what Icontributed, this is what I did,
(40:41):
yeah, so that's where it'sgoing and that's the direction
it's heading in.
Alex Wilson-Campbell @ r (40:46):
Sounds great.
I think you are forging yourpath, forging your legacy there.
It definitely is.
You're making an imprint and Ithink, yeah, really glad to have
had you on the show today.
I'm going to obviously leaveyour details in the show notes,
and where's the best place forpeople who are looking to
connect with you, Michelle, ifyou want to drop some URLs or
what that is your socials?
Michelle Coulson @ Remote Re (41:08):
So on all socials you'll find me
Remote Rebellion.
So LinkedIn, Michelle, RemoteRebellion, Website
remoterebellioncom, andInstagram, I believe, is Remote
Rebellion as well.
So they're the main threeplaces to find me.
I'm not really on Facebook orTikTok or anything, so they're
the main points of contact.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (41:26):
Excellent , or TikTok or anything.
So they're the main points ofcontact.
Excellent, I'll be leaving yourdetails in the show notes
Anyhow people can reach out.
But, michelle, it's been ablast.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation.
I've got so many more questionsthat I could have asked but we
were out of time.
But, yeah, lovely to see youand all the best.
Michelle Coulson @ Remot (41:40):
Lovely , thank you.
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