Ever wondered how a gift from your childhood could shape your entire career? In this episode of Remote Work Life, we sit down with Alina Vandenberg, CPO of Chili Piper, who shares her incredible journey from the confines of communist Romania to becoming a leading figure in tech entrepreneurship. Alina recounts how her father's gift of a computer ignited her passion for technology, ultimately setting her on a path to pursue computer science and transform into a successful tech entrepreneur.
Gain insight into the real challenges of navigating corporate politics and the disillusionment that comes with prioritizing shareholder value over meaningful work. Alina opens up about her transition from feeling like a corporate politician to finding her true calling in entrepreneurship. Discover how she and her co-founders built Chili Piper to revolutionize business communication, ensuring seamless and immediate connections between companies and their prospects. We also touch on the importance of user-friendly software and hiring skilled teams to simplify complex processes.
Explore the evolving landscape of remote work through Alina's personal experiences, including balancing a new baby with the demands of a startup. Learn about innovative recruiting strategies to enhance gender diversity in tech, and how Chili Piper's unique, skills-based hiring process is making a difference. This episode is a treasure trove of insights on creating a fulfilling work environment that values diversity, kindness, and ownership while integrating fun into the company culture. Tune in to hear Alina's inspiring story and actionable advice for anyone looking to align their professional life with their personal values.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex (00:00):
today on the Remote Work Life podcast.
Alina Vandenburgh (00:02):
And the more I was climbing the corporate
ladder, the more I understoodthat I was becoming more of a
politician as opposed to more ofa doer, which is the part that
I liked the most.
And I just didn't like who Iwas becoming.
I talked differently, I behaveddifferently, I took different
actions than what I wouldnormally take and I hated it.
(00:24):
I hated it to the point where Ijust couldn't go to work
anymore.
Alex (00:27):
That was the voice of Alina Vandenberg, who is the CPO
of Chili Piper, and what anextraordinary interview I had
with her just the other day.
It's Alex here from the RemoteWork Life podcast.
I hope you're doing well.
That was a little segment of mywide reaching interview with
Alina Vandenberg, as I mentioned, who is the CPO of Chili Piper.
(00:52):
You can reach out to ChiliPiper at chilipipercom and
obviously we'll tell you a lotmore about Chili Piper during
today's interview.
But, as I said, an extraordinaryand captivating interview I had
with Alina just the other day,where she talked about many
things on well, about herjourney towards entrepreneurship
(01:14):
.
She told me how she got intotech from an early age to
eventually becoming CPO andfounder of not just one but two
tech businesses.
In fact, she started as anentrepreneur in school.
Can you believe it?
She also told me about how hercareer journey developed and how
she developed an affinity forentrepreneurship.
(01:35):
She told me about her lifegrowing up in communist Romania
and the drivers that spurred herto start her first business
while at school.
How she escaped as well, howshe escaped her corporate
nine-to-five career anddiscovered that she was an
entrepreneur.
And she also talked through thesteps that she took and that
she went through in order tofigure out her natural talents
(01:56):
and passions.
So no doubt you should stickaround to listen to Alina's
interview.
Don't forget you can also seethe video interview that I've
posted now on remoteworklifeio.
But until then, take a look,take a listen and I will speak
to you on the other side.
Alina Vandenburgh (02:17):
Chili Piper has.
We solve a very simple problemcompanies that need to have a
form to qualify their prospectsbefore they talk to them, and we
enable that.
We make sure that people thatare qualified to talk to that
business are talking to a salesrep or to an account manager or
(02:40):
to a customer success personimmediately, so that there's no
wait time.
There's a better experience forthat particular person who
comes into the website and thesalesperson or the customer
success person doesn't have tochase them to get to talk to
them, which is kind of silly.
So even though it sounds like asimple problem to solve, it's
(03:02):
actually quite complex when youhave businesses that have, I
don't know, more than 10 salesreps or more than one way of
qualifying the prospects, and wesolve that for them.
We have some other products aswell, but this is the main.
This is the main claim to fame,if I can say that.
Alex (03:19):
And it's one of those things where you think to
yourself gosh, that's such agood idea, why?
Why didn't I think of that?
Because, at the end of the day,it's a.
It's a problem that you knowit's it's all about.
It's a product that solves aproblem, a human problem, which
is the whole problem ofcommunication and managing
people's expectations in manyways, and the last thing you
(03:40):
want when somebody comes to yourwebsite and fills out a form,
you, the last thing you want isis uncertainty, isn't it?
So I think chili pipe is greatin that.
Alina Vandenburgh (03:48):
In that respect, yeah, you'd think that
somebody would have sold it bynow.
Um it, we were surprised, as asyou were surprised, and now
companies like twilio and airbnband um uh, intuit and many
other companies are beingenabled with Chili Piper and
we're solving some otherproblems in that connection
(04:11):
touchpoint.
It's a lot of fun.
I'm surprised every day of thecomplexity around it, but it's
getting a more seamless processfor sure, for both parties.
Alex (04:27):
I'm really interested in your story as well, alina,
because you come from atechnical background yourself
and you've worked in computerscience roles.
You've done your.
I suppose you've worked at thecoalface in terms of doing those
sorts of things.
In fact, I heard as well youwere bought a computer at quite
(04:50):
a young age.
Is that what sparked yourinterest in tech?
Alina Vandenburgh (04:55):
My dad is a nerd like me in that he likes to
tinker with anything that comesout that's new and exciting.
He has an entire wood shackfull of tools and every time he
sees something that he has notseen before, he buys it and
tries it out, and he instilledthat kind of same type of
(05:18):
curiosity and excitement for newthings in me as well.
As soon as he could afford itwas not easy for him as soon as
he could afford to buy me acomputer.
He did, and he was veryhands-off and said you know, you
can discover it, you can figureout how this thing works.
I did a lot of silly things atthe beginning.
(05:38):
I don't know if you rememberthat we had a hard time with
storage on computers early days.
We had like floppy disks andstuff and I figured out that I'm
going to clean the space thisfor my computer and deleted all
the configuration files that waslike the first day, wow.
Alex (05:55):
So you completely wiped out your computer on the first
day yeah, yeah that's incredible, and I suppose there's a few
people who are here well,listening who and watching who
may not have.
May not have handled a floppydisk, but that's going back a
few years ago.
I can't remember the last time.
I don't think my computer evenhas a.
Well, it definitely doesn'thave a disk drive.
I know that for certain.
Alina Vandenburgh (06:17):
I don't have a.
Alex (06:18):
CD-ROM, either it's going back away, but I think that it
sounds like that is what reallypiqued your interest in in in
tech, and it's kind of um, tellme how you've built from, from
there to becoming chief productofficer then of Chili Piper.
How's that all come about?
Alina Vandenburgh (06:37):
so I have this um interesting technology
from my dad and then I have avery polar opposite from my mom
which is an interesting in artand interesting in visuals and
interesting in colors and shapesand and which goes very well
with product.
Because you have to when youbuild software in general, you
(06:59):
have to have a sensitivity forthe velvet and for the way the
product is visually representedto the user, so that the two
combination kind of went verywell together.
I didn't know at that time inschool that product is even a
thing.
I don't think that kids inschool are taught that product
is even a career path still now,not still now not, no, no it's
(07:23):
a very abstract thing.
I don't even know how to.
I don't know how I wouldexplain to a 10 year old what
product is, but now that theyget to experience their iPhones,
with Snapchat and TikTok, theyunderstand that there's somebody
behind that product and theyunderstand that somebody makes
decisions on how that productbehaves and what features go.
So it becomes a little bit moretangible and understand.
(07:46):
Okay, maybe I can be thedecision maker for this product
as well, and maybe I can.
I can do it.
It's again, it's abstract, butit's.
It's more tangible now thatthey have phones in their hands.
Alex (07:59):
No, yeah, definitely, I think, even cause, obviously
I've got children of my own andmy oldest is.
She's choosing her subjects nowand she's thinking about
university and even to this dayI mean as much as they the
schools say that they try Ithink they're way behind in
terms of introducing children totechnical aspects or even, you
(08:23):
know, joining the dots betweenthe artistic side of things and
the technical side of things.
There's still a long way to goin that respect, but it sounds
like you were able to connectthe dots yourself and it's built
into a wonderful career.
But I also get the feeling aswell that you had a burning
desire to be your own boss,rather than be be managed or at
(08:48):
least, um, be in a workplacethat you know somebody is
actually telling you what to do.
I think I always I get thefeeling that you, you wanted to
be that the person who wascalling the shots.
Is that?
Am I right in saying that?
Alina Vandenburgh (09:00):
it's an interesting uh topic the the
leadership and theentrepreneurship that gets built
in Me and my sister.
We have the same education,same type of parenting, same
school teachers, same everything.
And yet from very early on Ihad a very strong independent
(09:24):
personality.
I would not want to hold mymom's hand.
I wanted to explore things.
I wanted to be on my own andtry things.
I definitely have a veryriskier type of personality.
I am okay with risking things.
I'm okay with losing everythingthings.
(09:47):
I'm okay with losing anyeverything.
I'm okay with um going to acertain extent that many of my
friends probably are notcomfortable with, and I don't
know if I was just born likethat or something just clicked
and then I just became.
I had this entrepreneur bug inme, but I can definitely see
sign across the across the waythat I was interested in
(10:08):
starting things on my own.
I always was, and I had amillion odd jobs as a kid.
That would reflect that.
Alex (10:17):
And you even were before your high school.
You had your fingers inentrepreneurship.
You were actually engrossed inentrepreneurship.
Was it a lipstick business?
Alina Vandenburgh (10:27):
I think you mentioned yes, I, I had 40 sales
reps that I was managing to mefor, yeah, for cosmetics, and I
also managed the bills for waterand heat in my, in my building
um, I was also teaching mathclasses, I was training some IT
(10:50):
classes.
I would add so many odd things.
Very, very early on.
I think I might have startedaround I don't know seven, eight
, something like that.
Alex (11:01):
Very early on.
Well, I think that I mean Ilike that.
I mean I again, when it comesto my children, I try to get
them to immerse themselves in asmany things as possible,
because that's that's the onlyway that you can really
understand what you, you likeand what you, you don't like.
I think I don't know.
Alina Vandenburgh (11:18):
I was uh, I was driven for sure by economic
issues at that time because wewere in communist Romania and my
parents were workers infactories and the means were
definitely a problem, and thatsparked my interest in starting
things that would give meindependence.
(11:39):
It's very hard to get kids tobe part of the same kind of
environment, because usuallythese days they're surrounded by
comfort.
They have the food in thefridge, they have heat in the
house and all of that.
Sometimes I was missingessentials and that's what drove
(12:01):
me to do things out of the box.
And that's what drove me to dothings out of the box.
But it's definitely aninteresting topic how to get
kids to have more initiatives,even if they're comfortable.
Alex (12:15):
Yeah, it is a tricky one, and I hear what you're saying
there, because there's so many,I think, lots of things nowadays
that they've got everythingthey need.
I guess, don't they to thrive?
They don't necessarily want forthat much.
I'm speaking in quite generalterms, but if you compare to
what your situation was, and youknow, I suppose in the society
(12:36):
that we are now, western societyespecially I guess there's very
little in terms of wants andneeds for many kids.
But okay, so you've, you know,gone into.
You've had your entrepreneurstreak at a young age.
You've done your.
You've had your team of 40 at avery young age as well.
(12:58):
How did Chili Piper come about?
How did that spark come,because obviously you're a
co-founder as well?
How did that relationshipipercome about?
How did that spark come,because obviously you're a
co-founder as well?
How did that relationship startas well?
Alina Vandenburgh (13:10):
It didn't start immediately.
I didn't understand that I wasan entrepreneur.
I did not understand that I waspassionate about building
something on my own.
I started in a corporate job,like most of us and starting
understanding how corporationsfunction, and I was part of a
(13:32):
big healthcare company, a bigeducation company, big media,
big finance company as well, andI was a bit of a bull in a
Chinatown in that I didn't fullyunderstand how politics within
different corporations work.
I knew that I wanted to be atthe top, but I didn't quite
(13:53):
understand at the beginning howthat whole process works.
I obviously had to learn thehard way, but I've learned some
good politician-like, I guessskills in how things can be
managed and how you get thingsto happen and how you get things
to move.
And the more I explored thatcorporate path and the more I
(14:15):
was climbing the corporateladder, the more I understood
that I was becoming more of apolitician as opposed to more of
a tour, which is the part thatI liked the most, and I just
didn't like who I was becoming.
I talked differently, I behaveddifferently, I took different
actions than what, what I wouldnormally take, and I hated it.
(14:37):
I hated it to the point where Ijust couldn't go to work
anymore.
I was like it's painful and Iwas making more money than I
could ever imagine.
I I I never imagined that Icould.
I could earn that much and Iwas not.
Alex (14:51):
But I was not happy so, when you were at that point
where you're not happy, what,what kind of steps were you
taking to to, uh, to kind of getyourself out of that situation?
Because I mean, I've been in asimilar situation to that myself
, but I felt that, well, this isgoing back a few years ago now,
but I don't know if you feltthe same way.
I felt as though you know I was.
(15:12):
I was wondering who, who couldI speak to?
Who, in terms of you know, howcan I get myself out of the
situation?
Or how can I stop feeling likethis?
What were you, what?
What were the steps that youtook to sort of remedy that?
Alina Vandenburgh (15:24):
I looked around me and I looked at the
kind of people that weresuccessful in the corporations
that I was at and who was theCPO in that company, who was the
chief technology officer or theCIO path which I was in.
I obviously even aimed forbeing a CEO of a large
(15:45):
enterprise and if the founder isnot the CEO but somebody hired
to manage that company, in manycases, at least in where I was,
the passion for buildingsomething was gone.
The drive drive was more forstock, for let's make this share
(16:09):
worth more, um, let's make surethat the revenues are of a
certain size.
It was not about buildingsomething that was interesting,
it was much more aboutshareholders value and I had a
hard time making that my mainmission.
The cash, cash, cash, making itmy main mission.
(16:31):
It's really hard to be drivenby that and that was hard for me
.
I said I cannot become thatperson, I cannot be that person.
Alex (16:40):
Yeah, and I think you've touched on a great point there,
because I mean, there are peoplewhere that money is their main
driver.
But I think if you can't figureout or you're in a situation
where your values are not quitealigned with the people that
you're working with or thebusiness that you're working in,
that's the point at whichyou're unhappy.
That's a trigger in itself thatyou should do something, that
(17:01):
you should do something and youdid.
You were able to identify whatwas passionate, what your
mission was, what was importantto you, I guess, deep down
inside, and take those steps tothen be where you are now, I
guess but I'm sure it wasn't allthat easy.
Did you have to go throughdifferent stages of
(17:23):
understanding actually I likethis, but I don't like that and
crossing things off your listbefore you have to go through
sort of different stages ofunderstanding actually I like
this, but I don't like that andsort of crossing things off your
list before you got to whereyou are now?
Alina Vandenburgh (17:30):
yes, I definitely had to peel a lot of
layers of to understanding who,what I really liked, what I was
really passionate about, who,what I was really good at and
what I was struggling with.
And after a lot ofself-reflection I found that the
thing that I like the most isbuilding software and I like to
(17:53):
come up with interfaces thatsimplify complex processes.
That's my talent and I shouldput it to work.
I should not let it dormant ina closet and dust it off.
And it's interesting becausethis talent of building software
that is easy to use even thoughit solves for complex problems
(18:17):
is not frequent.
It's a rare talent.
I'm currently hiring fromproduct managers and product
designers that can join our team, and it's not easy.
We have hundreds and hundredsof candidates, and I have a
little test that I give them too, and very few pass my test,
like very, very, very few, Iwould say.
One out of 200 barely goes tothe next stage, and it's
(18:40):
interesting that I didn'trealize the scarcity of it, of
this particular talent, and itgoes back to what you said is
that it's very hard to teach itin school.
It's hard to understand talent,but it's needed because our
society depends on technologyquite a lot and it's going to
become even more dependent ontechnology to solve complex
(19:01):
problems.
And as a result, I said youknow what I'm just going to
focus on, that I'm going tofocus on this talent that I have
.
And the fact that I went inenterprise was surprising for me
.
At first I thought I'm going toprobably go to healthcare or to
education, where I thought thatI'm much easier to find the
(19:21):
mission to maybe cure disease,or in healthcare, where you
educate kids.
I'm still very passionate abouteducation.
So the path of enterprise was abit unexpected.
But I understood that becauseof the scarcity of talent in
solving complex problems, evenfewer people go to enterprise
(19:42):
software.
People are much more.
If they have this talent,they're much more likely to go
to enterprise software much more.
People are much more if theyhave this talent, are much more
likely to go to consumersproducts.
That they're more they have anaffinity for um.
So it was interesting path.
I was exposed to enterprisesoftware because of the roles
that I had and I always saw thatthey were clunky and hard to
use and they were not solving myproblems.
They're not making my jobeasier and I said you know,
(20:04):
there has to be somebody to haveto make these jobs easier.
There has to be somebody tosolve, make people happier when
they go to work and make theirjobs easier.
And I can.
Alex (20:12):
I can be that person I have the right exposure to, to
solving their problems and Ithink you've highlighted a great
point as another great pointbecause I mean, I've interviewed
um nick francis of help scout.
I've interviewed um some of thesome great leaders of not not
just um tech leaders but peoplewho, who, um really talk about
(20:38):
understanding your yourself,understanding what problem it is
you're trying to solve first,before you then talk about the
skills you use or the skillsthat you want to use in order to
solve that, that problem.
Because a lot of people goabout it the wrong way, like
you've just alluded to.
They they talk about all theskills that they have and all
the the projects that they'veworked on, but they don't,
because they don't, they haven'tnecessarily gone through the
(20:59):
path that you've gone through inactually using those products
and or at least understandingwhat the problems are and then
picking a problem to solve.
And maybe even, I suppose, whenyou think about healthcare,
healthcare is an obvious youknow there's obvious problems
that people can see inhealthcare, but in enterprise I
guess there's, there aren'tobvious problems unless you've
sort of really be part of it,part of those problems.
(21:21):
So I love that and this is avaluable lesson if anybody's
going to be applying to any ofAlina's roles.
Don't think about your productskills or your tech skills.
First Think about the problemthat you want to solve and, if
you're not yet at the stagewhere you can apply to Alina's
roles, go and work in tech andunderstand those problems,
(21:46):
understand those products moreand understand the problems
behind those, those um, thoseproducts, so you can then
present yourself as a candidatewho can can solve them, um, and
help elena out.
So yeah, I love that.
I love that that particularscenario.
And going back to um elena, soyou've you've identified
(22:06):
yourself now that these areproblems I want to solve.
I'm going to to fast forwardquite far, because I noticed a
post of yours on LinkedIn it wasaround about 2015, 2016, where
you talked about quitting yourjob right, and that's a pretty
big milestone, I guess andbuilding a startup.
Tell me about that.
Alina Vandenburgh (22:27):
It was not easy, because you go from a lot
of income to zero income, and atthat time I did not have
savings and so it was not.
It was not an easy jump, but Icould not do it anymore.
I just could not continue thatpath.
And at the same time my husband, who is a serial entrepreneur,
(22:50):
kept insisting that I shouldjoin him, that I should join him
, that I should join him becausewe have such complementary
skills.
I said you know what?
I'll give it a try.
I'll give it a try at least oneyear, and I'll give him
everything that I have so that Idon't regret it.
And I've not looked back.
Alex (23:07):
I've not looked back ever since so you wouldn't go back
into corporate life now.
Alina Vandenburgh (23:12):
No, I would rather live in a trailer and
sing.
I don't know, I cannot go back.
Alex (23:19):
Well, it sounds like you're on an upper trajectory
with the business anyway, so itdoesn't sound like you need to
look back.
It sounds like it's going inthe right direction.
Alina Vandenburgh (23:27):
It's a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun Excellent.
It sounds like it's going inthe right direction.
It's a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun, excellent.
And I think that the reason whyI like it so much is not
because I'm no longer part of amachinery that the corporate
system can feel like.
It's because I have theopportunity to instill in our
company the kind of values thatI find important when working
(23:49):
with others, in that, forinstance, we don't have much
hierarchy at Chili Piper.
We probably will have to havesome sort of hierarchy as we're
hiring more people, but we havea very flat process right now
and it feels like you're workingwith a lot of smart people and
you're influencing each other inthe right way when you're
building things, and diversityis important for me, and
(24:12):
kindness is important for me,and ownership is important for
me, so that everybody can feellike they're they're
contributing 100, not just a cogin the wheel and um.
Alex (24:24):
That's what makes things even more interesting no, I
think so, and values as well.
It's, it's, it's, it's justwhat makes me me tick.
You know it's what kind of umit makes anybody ticker, if
that's what I think most of thebest.
Uh, businesses when they'rehiring, that's what really draws
people in and gets them toreally fall in love with their
(24:48):
business and really understand.
You know, get that businessfrom from the get go and then
they look at the.
I mean, I think that's, that's,that's my, my feeling anyway,
and I think your values arefront and center on your website
.
You talk about um, help helpingyour, your team members, reach
their full potential.
You know innovating and havingfun.
(25:11):
Who knew you could have fun atwork?
Alina Vandenburgh (25:15):
I know it's a crazy notion.
Alex (25:20):
I mean, I still don't think that people can get not
people in general.
But I mean, when I was workingit wasn't funny.
It just felt like I was thereto sort of learn something and
go home and go back the next dayand it just, like you said, the
hamster wheel, on and on and on.
But for you it sounds likeyou're trying to that's.
(25:41):
That's kind of baked in, thatthat whole aspect of fun and
innovation is baked into to whatyou do and helping one another.
Tell me more about that.
Alina Vandenburgh (25:50):
It's one of the values that comes from my
co-founder the fun part andthat's because, ever since I met
him, he always puts a largesmile on my face from the time I
wake up until the time I go tobed.
He's very funny and he alwaysmanages to find the most in the
(26:12):
most obscure situation, thepositive way to look at it, and
um comes up with way in which wecan find entertainment in in
the most unusual circumstances.
So the the fun value definitelycomes from him.
We think that we're spending somuch time at work right, it's
(26:34):
like almost our whole life.
For me, especially, it's myentire weekday.
It's a shame to make it sad,right?
Yeah, it would be a shame tonot make the most out of it and
find beauty in the things thatwe do, beauty in that
(26:55):
positiveness and a learningopportunity in which maybe a
client has a bad day and screamsat us, for instance, and then
we can learn that we can takethat and make his day a bit
better with something we cancome up with, with a way to to
entertain him as well.
And it's important for us to tomake things fun.
(27:16):
Uh, for instance, one of thethings that we did and I don't
have a sample here.
It we did this a little chilisauce because it's a play on our
company name, and it says lighta fire under your sass sass
software as a service.
But you can also put theletters in a different way.
Uh, so we we use all theopportunities to to have fun for
(27:37):
sure yeah, I mean I'm lookingat your website as well now.
Alex (27:41):
I can see there's some, there's some pictures and it.
You look, you guys look likeyou are having fun.
I think you should bring thatout more because I you know that
that to me is the kind of vibeand the kind of that's the kind
of atmosphere I want when I goto work.
It's like I said I when I Imean I've been working now for
the last what 20 years and halfof that has been working for
(28:05):
other people and it wasn't funand you know they they tried as
much as they can they could tokind of introduce the things
like the perk, the pool tableand the, you know, the free
breakfast, and it all seemedvery sort of um contrived, but
with you guys, it's, it's, it'snatural.
So that's definitely one of you,that's a usp, that you, that is
(28:28):
is difficult to um, it's reallydifficult to to demonstrate,
but you guys are doing it reallywell so it's.
Alina Vandenburgh (28:35):
It's interesting because we're remote
, um, so we cannot have thoseperks that you're talking about.
Right, I cannot.
We all work from wherever wewant to.
If you find a tennis court andyou bring it on and then you
play, that's the part of yourtime management.
But within the meetings that wehave, within the call that we
have for when we meet in person,for sure we make the most out
(28:58):
of it, and it becomes a bit moreintense like that when you're
meeting your colleagues lessoften.
It's you you'll make sure thatyou make the most of that time
in person that you have.
Alex (29:10):
Definitely.
And you mentioned remote workand I think that in itself it
just changes the game where workis concerned, because, again,
I've worked in a co-locatedscenario.
I'm not saying you can't havefun in those situations, but
each to their own, and I meanI've had most of my fun working
on a remote basis and thatdoesn't mean I've been isolating
(29:32):
myself by any means, but it'sstill very much a team ethic
there.
But I think um, the remote workis is a gift that that helps in
so many different ways and it'sit's helping your team to grow
as well.
Alina Vandenburgh (29:42):
Tell me more about your, your decision behind
um going remote it was a very,very easy decision and that I
definitely am passionate aboutdiscovering new places and
traveling and learning aboutpeople's cultures and diversity
and understanding how differentmotivations work on different
(30:05):
parts of the planet anddifferent problems different
people face.
And, um it, as soon as youbecome emerged in cultures that
are different than yours, yourmind kind of opens up and you
understand issues in a globalsense in a way that you wouldn't
have.
I can take a typical person whodoesn't have, for instance, in
(30:29):
us, that doesn't have a uspassport, that hasn't traveled
across outside of the us borders.
It's hard for them tounderstand climate change.
It's it's harder for them tounderstand, uh, why?
Uh, an issue that comes from apolitical driven um uh campaign
for something to happen in in,in, in iran or afghanistan.
(30:54):
All these things are veryabstract.
Yes, they're like they're,they're headlines in a newspaper
, but they don't affect you, sothey become completely
irrelevant to your life, whereaswhen you travel and you've been
to some of these places you'vebeen to egypt, in the, in the,
in the center.
You've been to turkey, toistanbul.
You've been to some of theseplaces.
You've been to Egypt, in thecenter.
You've been to Turkey, toIstanbul, you've been to China,
(31:15):
those stories.
They become meaningful.
You understand how these peopleget affected and that it's not
only you, your borders, that areaffecting how you live.
And because of that diversity,I feel like I'm a more, I'm a
better person, and I would loveif I can share that kind of
growth that I've experienced bytraveling to many other people.
(31:39):
It's not so much about um, it'snot so much about uh culture,
but it's it's more ofunderstanding how issues affect
us all when we're doingsomething, how everybody gets
affected, and I love to sharethat.
And I'm really grateful thatwe're quite diverse right now.
(32:03):
We're from so many countriesand so many cities and, as a
result, I feel like we're alllearning from each other so much
, so much and you've grown soquickly as well.
Alex (32:12):
I mean, I, I was um speaking to to Nicholas
yesterday.
Nicholas is the co-founder ofum, chili Piper, and he was um.
I was saying that I was readingan article.
It was dated 2018 and, um, atthat time, you had 28 people and
right now you have 42.
And would you say that workingon a remote basis has enabled
(32:37):
that growth?
Alina Vandenburgh (32:41):
Well, we have bigger goals than that.
40 is just the beginning.
I would love to get employeesin every country and then get to
know how that culture can work.
But for sure it's easier tofind talent when you're not
(33:02):
restricted by boundaries,especially now.
I live in New York and New Yorkis super competitive.
There's Google, there's Amazon,there's Facebook fighting for
tech talent, and a kid out ofschool here who has finished
computer science can get upwardsof $100,000 in salaries, and
for a startup it's very hard tocompete with tech giants like
(33:27):
that, Whereas us we're notrestricted.
We can hire anywhere.
We can hire anywhere we findtalent and people that are
willing to learn and get on apath of rocket ship.
Alex (33:45):
Yeah, it's a fast-moving, it's a fast pace.
You've got there.
What is the makeup of your,your, your team right now?
Do you have a?
I know you said you're quiteflat in your structure, but I
have you sort of segmented itinto different departments as
yet we have the engineers.
Alina Vandenburgh (34:00):
Like everybody, we, the the engineers
that I have scrums with everyday um, we have the sales team
that is rapidly growing.
We just hired a CMO and the CMOis hiring the marketing engine.
So far we've functioned withoutmarketing.
I don't know how we did that.
It's interesting because we putthese job posts on and we
(34:26):
advertise them on websites likewe work remotely and things like
that on and we advertise themon websites like we work
remotely and things like that.
And I try to advertise onfemale only distribution
channels as well, but we stillget a majority of applicants are
male.
I really want to get morefemale candidates.
I try to spread as much as Ican the the job post on on on
(34:50):
this website so that we can getmuch more female representation.
Alex (34:56):
It's for sure in we're diverse in in culture, but we're
not yet diverse in in femaleversus male, and I I'm I'm
fighting to change that yeah, Imean I don't know if you read
the website, but that's onething that I'm passionate about
also, because obviously there'sa disparity where that's
(35:17):
concerned isn't there, and Ithink there's so many different
theories.
Is it a pipeline issue?
Alina Vandenburgh (35:26):
It's a pipeline for us.
For sure, 100%.
Such a small percentage offemale.
Alex (35:29):
For sure, 100, such a small percentage of email it
really is such a smallpercentage, and it's, it's
hiring in itself is is isdifficult enough without trying
to to find a needle in ahaystack, isn't it?
So it's, it's, um, it's, it'sone of those things that I'm
really passionate about and um,you know, if you are looking for
a new role, I'd urge you to goand have a look at Chili Piper's
(35:52):
website and speak to Alina andI'll share this out as far as I
can as well, to hopefully drumup some support your way, alina,
as well.
Alina Vandenburgh (36:02):
That'd be awesome.
That'd be awesome.
I have a very interestingrecruiting process that I don't
think anybody else has.
I don't look at resumes.
I do not look at schools.
I don't even care if they wentto school.
Alex (36:19):
Wow, okay.
Alina Vandenburgh (36:21):
I don't care how long they've been working.
They could work 10 years or amonth, I don't care.
What I really care about isthat they do well on my test,
and my test is is very hard, asI was telling you, and it's
interesting.
I don't even look at theirnames, so I don't even know what
country they come.
(36:41):
I don't even know their gender.
I don't know anything, I justlook at the test is well done.
Alex (36:46):
I'm I'm really tempted to ask you what's on that test, but
I'm sure you're not gonna.
You're not that test, but I'msure you're not gonna.
You're not gonna divulge it,are you?
You're not gonna, you're notgonna say, but that is very on
you.
I mean, there are aspects ofthat that are are kind of
becoming more free, um used now.
So, for example, no resumes and, you know, a blind interview
essentially, but it's blind,blind completely.
(37:08):
But I think the experiencefactor is is quite unusual,
especially in remote, because alot of people I've spoken to, a
lot of the ceos, I've spoken tohiring managers, say that they
ideally want people who have,you know, have some experience
of whatever it is that they'regoing to be doing, because they
(37:29):
don't necessarily want to beholding their hand or having to
sort of guide them throughcertain steps.
But yeah, that is unusual, butI'm intrigued, alina, I'm really
intrigued well.
Alina Vandenburgh (37:38):
Well, it's, it's the skills.
When you start work, it'shaving the right skills to to do
the job really well, and thoseskills are not reflected in the
resume or in anything else butyour work.
So that's the part that I'mtesting with it, and it's a
timed test that has some superhard questions and some super
(38:00):
hard things to do within a superrestricted time.
So you have to be super greedyand super motivated and
multitasking at the same time.
So I think that's the reasonwhy why it's harder than the
normal recruiting process soother than we work remotely a
bit of a plug, therefore.
Alex (38:18):
We were remotely.
What other places are youadvertising your roles and how
are you trying to?
How are you attracting peopleto the chili piper?
Alina Vandenburgh (38:30):
we have a network of recruiters as well in
some countries.
Um, we have some websites wherewe post.
We also get a lot of applicantsfrom linkedin.
We are quite active on linkedin, um, not as uh, not as an uh
outbound, but more because oursalespeople post whenever they
(38:52):
see something interesting andthen somebody else sees their
post and they say, oh, thesepeople are having fun, versus
our account executives.
I don't know how they manage tofind each other, but they love
skiing and snowboarding, so theyoften post videos and pictures
of them snowboarding and peoplewonder well, where do you work
on top?
Alex (39:11):
of mountains.
Alina Vandenburgh (39:14):
It's an unusual post for a salesperson
and similarly, we have ourcustomer success team just
decided to move to Colombia, sothey post a lot of pictures in
like super cool places and andat the carnival.
So people are interested andand they say, oh, these people
are not, do not have yourtypical nine to five to five
(39:37):
jobs.
Alex (39:37):
I want to be part of it I think that's a big hook and, um,
you know, uh, tax jar as well,tax jarcom.
They they're going the sameroute in terms of they focus on
their values as well and theyfocus on what they do outside of
work, because, at the end ofthe day, you can get a million
people that have got like aproduct manager CV or a
(40:02):
marketing manager or a marketingdirector CV, but, at the end of
the day, what really hookspeople in, I guess, is the
things like the travel, is thethings like cooking, or is the
things like the things that theyshare, the things that they
have in common.
Right, that's what draws peoplein.
Alina Vandenburgh (40:19):
Definitely there's an aspect of similarity
in hobbies and passions.
Obviously the community is veryimportant for every one of us
and being part of that communitynot on that business that you
work timetable, but on your owntimetable, so that I don't know
if you have a kid and you wantto pick them up at a certain
(40:41):
time from school, there's norestriction on that, and if you
want to cycle at 2 pm becausethat's when there are no, that's
when there's no traffic.
It definitely creates adifferent rhythm in people's
life and a space for them to bepassionate about things that
they would not be passionateabout otherwise.
Alex (41:04):
It's like I said before, it's a gift when you worked in a
scenario, like I said, remotework doesn't suit everybody, but
when you worked in a scenariothat doesn't suit you, when you
then move to a scenario thatsuits you, whether it be remote
or not, but especially remotefor me, it's a gift Because,
like Alina said, you can do thethings that you perhaps couldn't
(41:24):
do if you were I don't know ina job that demanded that you
work late, for example, and youknow those sorts of things, and
you didn't have a balance.
So you've managed to strike abalance yourself, haven't you,
alina?
In terms of running twobusinesses, and you've had a
(41:44):
little new arrival to yourfamily quite recently as well.
Alina Vandenburgh (41:49):
I had a baby, which has changed a lot of
things for sure.
Um, back to back to yourobservation that remote work is
not for everyone.
It's indeed the case.
We observe that not everybodycan resist within this uh
framework, because youdefinitely need to be a bit more
self-disciplined and a littlebit more self-aware, and it we
(42:14):
had employees that got isolatedand then they decided not to be
part of community office or ordo things outside of that
staying at home and working andthat can burn you out as well.
So it's definitely not foreverybody.
You have to be very much awareof how you spend your time and
how you get to interact with theworld.
(42:37):
The part for me that clicked isthat I have to work on things
that are more creative, I guess,than your typical role, and
ideas don't come to me when Isit at my desk.
Ideas come to me when I walk.
Ideas come to me when I bike,when I exercise, and I sometimes
(42:59):
get stuck on something and Icannot proceed and I go and I do
something.
That's a bit more unusual.
Boom, an idea comes to me.
So for me it suits me very well.
I also don't like to do thingsthat normally people like to do.
I don't like to cook.
Unfortunately, I like to eat,but I don't like to cook.
I don't like to go shopping.
Um, so, as a result, I I amreally attached to the work that
(43:24):
I do.
I really like software andbuilding software, and that's
what I think about in theevening, that's what I think
about in the weekends, so it'sdefinitely, it definitely suits
me.
Um, well, now that I have ababy, and a child as well, I'm
much more um intentional aboutmy time, for sure.
Yeah, um, in that I am veryaware if I do something that's
(43:49):
not beneficial for me or for himin his education, like
scrolling mindlessly on socialmedia or I don't know, staring
at articles that are not goingto make me a better person.
It has changed things a bit,yeah.
Alex (44:10):
Yeah, and that intent is yeah, it doesn't suit everybody
as bit.
Yeah, yeah, and that intent isyeah, it doesn't suit everybody.
As we've said, that intent isimportant.
I think I I did a podcast theother day about looking after
your your not just your mentalhealth, because mental health is
getting a lot of coverage rightnow, but I think, especially as
as a somebody who worksremotely because sometimes
(44:32):
there's a habit, we sit downquite a lot, I guess, unless you
have a sit-stand desk, forexample you have to look after
your physical health as well,the physical side of things, and
especially, like you said, nowyou have a child Alina, I've got
my children you have to bementally and physically equipped
to deal with all thosedifferent um scenarios.
(44:52):
So you have to have knowyourself, like kalina says, you
have to know what you want to do, but then you have to have the
discipline to to actually dothose things.
Don't just say you're going togo and exercise or go and ride
your bike, um, or go for a walk.
Do do it, um, and really findout what those passions are for
you.
And how has it been with you,um, uh, with, with your, with
(45:14):
your, with your baby?
How have you, how are youbalancing everything?
Alina Vandenburgh (45:19):
I think I don't.
I uh, I am lucky because I havemy mom around and she's very
good with my baby.
So, as a result, I don't havethat in the back of my mind,
that it gives me the kind ofpeace of mind that I don't think
(45:41):
any other organization would.
I know that he's in good handsand my mom loves him and he
loves her.
So I'm lucky.
I'm very lucky in that regard.
I'm very aware of it andwhenever I do spend time with
him, I make sure that it's hyperquality time that we enjoy.
We don't look at screens Idon't even have a TV service at
(46:05):
home, so there's no risk of that.
We're doing a lot of outdooractivities.
We make sure that we get a lotof air and vitamin D.
Vitamin D is a hot topic thesedays.
Alex (46:19):
Oh yeah, so important.
Alina Vandenburgh (46:24):
There's definitely.
I'm still trying to figure itall out how to best be a human
and how to be good at this newgame for me the parenting part.
I'm reading a lot of books.
I'm becoming very passionateabout learning everything there
is to know and all thescientific literature on the
(46:45):
subject, but it's a fun path.
Alex (46:48):
Yeah, it is, and I think you learn as you go along.
I think it's one of those rolesthat you can't there's no job
description for it and there'sno sort of, like you know, list
of things to do now and this iswhat you should do at this
scenario.
You kind of you learn on thejob, On the job.
Alina Vandenburgh (47:06):
Yeah.
Alex (47:09):
And that whole thing of balance.
I think that word balance, Isuppose it does put you, it puts
people under pressure, doesn'tit?
Because it makes you think thateverything should be sort of
sort of like perfectly aligned.
But for me, what I've learnedis that the balance is is that
everything is as happy as it canbe, everything is sort of
(47:30):
ticking along as it can be.
That balance does change, youknow, but it kind of you work it
out, you work, you work it outeventually.
So that's great and I, I admireyou for what you're doing, elena
, in terms of growing yourbusiness, um, you know, and, and
your family, it's, it's andtraveling and remote work.
For me, you've got, you've got,you've got.
You've got everything sortedout as far as I'm concerned.
(47:52):
So I really admire what you'redoing.
So what is in the?
I don't want to take up toomuch of time.
I could ask you so many morequestions, but, um, I don't want
to take up too much of yourtime, but I wanted to ask you
what's in, what's on the horizonfor for chili piper, what?
What are your plans for the upand coming months, next year or
so?
Alina Vandenburgh (48:12):
well, first of all, I want to just step back
for one second and justpinpoint something in that you
are definitely a positive personand showing a lot of gratitude,
and I think that's a superimportant, a super important
value.
We often forget that gratitudeshould be part of our everyday
(48:35):
routine.
It changes a lot of things andit allows us to view things in a
new light.
With that said, I think that,as I'm looking at the future of
Chili Piper and our company,keeping that particular value is
(48:56):
very important to me.
At scale, making sure thatpeople don't forget to be kind
to one another, that we don'tforget to be grateful of the
things and seeing positivenessin our interactions, is going to
be interesting to manage atscale.
Keeping a self-startingorientation in everybody to have
(49:25):
that kind of ownership whereeverybody can affect everything
and there's no organizationalstructure, is going to be
interesting at scale as well.
So there's definitely a lot ofthinking that we'll have to go
through in terms of operationsas we're scaling and how to keep
that same fun attitude that wehave towards work.
(49:52):
At the same time, in order tosustain ourselves and in order
to sustain our employees, wehave to grow revenue as well, of
course and that is important ineverything that we do, we have
to become sustainable and beeconomically viable, so we're
going to look at how that cancan change things as well.
(50:13):
Our products right now are allavailable to enterprise setup,
so you have to talk to a rep toset you up because they're quite
complex, but we're currentlyexploring ways in which we can
make them available forself-service so that people can
come in and just set themselvesup.
It's not it's not entirely easy, but for search and use cases
it is if the company is smaller.
(50:35):
So that's what, personally, I'mfocusing on right now from a
product perspective as well, and, as a result, I'm hiring super
smart designers and productmanagers.
So if you have anyone who'slistening to the podcast, who
wants to work from hawaii and towork from new zealand uh on
cool, uh on hard problems go toour website and apply.
(50:59):
Don't get scared of the test.
Um, but yeah, those are thethings that I'm thinking about
that are on top of my mind well,guys, I did try to get as much
as I could out of Alina aboutthe test.
Alex (51:12):
I wasn't fortunate to do that, so what I will ask her,
though what I will ask you,alina, is how can somebody make
themselves an attractivepotential hire to your business
outside of their?
Alina Vandenburgh (51:27):
Well, yeah, I'll just leave the floor open
to you it's not only chili piper, I think it's any organization,
anybody trying to grow and thenbe a better uh, suitable
candidate is exposure to as manydiverse things as possible.
It's very important that we getskills that are complementary
(51:52):
to each other but also quitediverse, in that if you're, for
instance, an engineer, youshould definitely look into
design, you should definitelylook into interaction design,
you should definitely understandproduct management as well,
because that makes you a betterengineer.
Similarly, if you're a productmanager, you should definitely
understand a bit of javascript,a bit of java, a bit of a bit of
(52:13):
all these languages, becausethen you can talk better to the
engineers, understand theirproblems and understand where
they're coming from.
And it's the same for everyrole, as as soon as you can
expose yourself and be curiousjust be curious about different
areas of expertise you justbecome better.
So I think that's a generalthing that can apply to not only
(52:34):
um, not only chili piper, butfor any.
Alex (52:37):
Any other job that one can apply for is is arm yourself
with diverse skill setabsolutely, and yeah, I would
agree with you because that'sthat what you've just said is
reflected by many of the otherpeople who are hiring and many
of the CEOs.
That is just that diversity ofskills of thought of you know
all, that's all criticalthinking, yeah, yeah.
(52:58):
Yeah Well, alina, it's beenabsolutely wonderful speaking to
you.
As I said, I've got lots morequestions I'd like to ask, but I
know you're busy.
As I said, I've got lots morequestions I'd like to ask, but I
know you're busy.
Anybody who's curious aboutChili Piper and the jobs, please
go to chilipipercom that'sc-h-i-l-i.
Pipercom and have a look attheir jobs pages and check them
(53:25):
out, and I recommend having alook and see what you can see.
But, alina, thank you so muchfor joining me on the Remote
Work Life podcast.
I'll certainly be keeping aneye on what Chili Piper is doing
and what you and Nicholas aredoing.
So all the best with it for thefuture.
Alina Vandenburgh (53:41):
Thank you, alex.
I had a lot of fun you too, andlet me know when the episode is
up so that I can share it.
Alex (53:50):
I certainly will Thank you , Alina.
Alina Vandenburgh (53:53):
Bye-bye, bye.
Alex (53:55):
So there you have it.
That was my interview therewith Alina Vandenberg of Chili
Piper.
I hope you enjoyed that, andit's quite appropriate that we
finish by talking about jobs,because I know right now there's
lots of insecurity, there'slots of uncertainty around jobs
and lots of people I know arebeing made redundant, which is
really unfortunate because ofthe situation with the
(54:17):
coronavirus and restrictions onwork and the effects it's having
upon business.
I hope you're not in thatsituation yourself, but if you
are, please continue to listenand watch out for future videos
that I'm going to release,because I'm hoping that they can
help.
They'll help you in some way to, I guess, understand what you
(54:38):
need to do if you are trying totransition from your current
situation to a new situation,especially if you're trying to
find remote work opportunities,because all the videos I'll be
releasing there'll be aroundabout 30 or so of them all the
videos I'll be releasing will beinterviews and conversations
(54:58):
I've had with CEOs, leaders andexperts within remote businesses
, so they'll focus mainly onwhat it's like to work in a
remote business, so that you,too, can know yourself what it's
like.
You know what to expect.
I'll talk also, or we'll talk,about remote work, culture and
communication and tech, all thatsort of thing how to thrive
(55:20):
while working from home that'sgoing to be an important topic
right now.
So listen out for the videos,because I'll also be obviously
covering bonafide remotebusinesses and there's lots of,
I guess, quite dubiousopportunities in inverted commas
, dubious opportunities andbusinesses out there right now.
So you can be sure that theones I'll be covering will be
(55:41):
bonafide business leaders andbonafide businesses.
So look out for that.
Look out for those videos aswell as the audio.
I'll be publishing the videos onremoteworklifeio and I'd urge
you to follow the hashtag remotebut together, so that you don't
miss a beat, so you don't missa video that will be published.
(56:05):
And on a final note, I mean ifyou are experiencing uncertainty
in your career, I just want toremind you that I help managers
gain clarity and direction intheir careers through one-to-one
and group career coaching.
And if you find yourself in asituation where you, or your
team, in fact, have been maderedundant, I work with coaching
(56:26):
associates and we can help toput together a plan for you to
help you to at least begin tothink about and think about what
you need to do to transitionfrom where you are now to you
know well, not first andforemost, but eventually you'll
need to start to think aboutwhere you're headed in the
(56:47):
future, and I and my teamcertainly can help you with that
.
But for now, that is all fromme, from the Remote Work Life
podcast.
As I said, check outremoteworklifeio for future
interviews.
Follow the hashtag remote puttogether so you can stay up to
(57:10):
date when new interviews arepublished, and I will speak with
you soon.
today on the Remote Work Life podcast.
Alina Vandenburgh (00:02):
And the more I was climbing the corporate
ladder, the more I understoodthat I was becoming more of a
politician as opposed to more ofa doer, which is the part that
I liked the most.
And I just didn't like who Iwas becoming.
I talked differently, I behaveddifferently, I took different
actions than what I wouldnormally take and I hated it.
(00:24):
I hated it to the point where Ijust couldn't go to work
anymore.
Alex (00:27):
That was the voice of Alina Vandenberg, who is the CPO
of Chili Piper, and what anextraordinary interview I had
with her just the other day.
It's Alex here from the RemoteWork Life podcast.
I hope you're doing well.
That was a little segment of mywide reaching interview with
Alina Vandenberg, as I mentioned, who is the CPO of Chili Piper.
(00:52):
You can reach out to ChiliPiper at chilipipercom and
obviously we'll tell you a lotmore about Chili Piper during
today's interview.
But, as I said, an extraordinaryand captivating interview I had
with Alina just the other day,where she talked about many
things on well, about herjourney towards entrepreneurship
(01:14):
.
She told me how she got intotech from an early age to
eventually becoming CPO andfounder of not just one but two
tech businesses.
In fact, she started as anentrepreneur in school.
Can you believe it?
She also told me about how hercareer journey developed and how
she developed an affinity forentrepreneurship.
(01:35):
She told me about her lifegrowing up in communist Romania
and the drivers that spurred herto start her first business
while at school.
How she escaped as well, howshe escaped her corporate
nine-to-five career anddiscovered that she was an
entrepreneur.
And she also talked through thesteps that she took and that
she went through in order tofigure out her natural talents
(01:56):
and passions.
So no doubt you should stickaround to listen to Alina's
interview.
Don't forget you can also seethe video interview that I've
posted now on remoteworklifeio.
But until then, take a look,take a listen and I will speak
to you on the other side.
Alina Vandenburgh (02:17):
Chili Piper has.
We solve a very simple problemcompanies that need to have a
form to qualify their prospectsbefore they talk to them, and we
enable that.
We make sure that people thatare qualified to talk to that
business are talking to a salesrep or to an account manager or
(02:40):
to a customer success personimmediately, so that there's no
wait time.
There's a better experience forthat particular person who
comes into the website and thesalesperson or the customer
success person doesn't have tochase them to get to talk to
them, which is kind of silly.
So even though it sounds like asimple problem to solve, it's
(03:02):
actually quite complex when youhave businesses that have, I
don't know, more than 10 salesreps or more than one way of
qualifying the prospects, and wesolve that for them.
We have some other products aswell, but this is the main.
This is the main claim to fame,if I can say that.
Alex (03:19):
And it's one of those things where you think to
yourself gosh, that's such agood idea, why?
Why didn't I think of that?
Because, at the end of the day,it's a.
It's a problem that you knowit's it's all about.
It's a product that solves aproblem, a human problem, which
is the whole problem ofcommunication and managing
people's expectations in manyways, and the last thing you
(03:40):
want when somebody comes to yourwebsite and fills out a form,
you, the last thing you want isis uncertainty, isn't it?
So I think chili pipe is greatin that.
Alina Vandenburgh (03:48):
In that respect, yeah, you'd think that
somebody would have sold it bynow.
Um it, we were surprised, as asyou were surprised, and now
companies like twilio and airbnband um uh, intuit and many
other companies are beingenabled with Chili Piper and
we're solving some otherproblems in that connection
(04:11):
touchpoint.
It's a lot of fun.
I'm surprised every day of thecomplexity around it, but it's
getting a more seamless processfor sure, for both parties.
Alex (04:27):
I'm really interested in your story as well, alina,
because you come from atechnical background yourself
and you've worked in computerscience roles.
You've done your.
I suppose you've worked at thecoalface in terms of doing those
sorts of things.
In fact, I heard as well youwere bought a computer at quite
(04:50):
a young age.
Is that what sparked yourinterest in tech?
Alina Vandenburgh (04:55):
My dad is a nerd like me in that he likes to
tinker with anything that comesout that's new and exciting.
He has an entire wood shackfull of tools and every time he
sees something that he has notseen before, he buys it and
tries it out, and he instilledthat kind of same type of
(05:18):
curiosity and excitement for newthings in me as well.
As soon as he could afford itwas not easy for him as soon as
he could afford to buy me acomputer.
He did, and he was veryhands-off and said you know, you
can discover it, you can figureout how this thing works.
I did a lot of silly things atthe beginning.
(05:38):
I don't know if you rememberthat we had a hard time with
storage on computers early days.
We had like floppy disks andstuff and I figured out that I'm
going to clean the space thisfor my computer and deleted all
the configuration files that waslike the first day, wow.
Alex (05:55):
So you completely wiped out your computer on the first
day yeah, yeah that's incredible, and I suppose there's a few
people who are here well,listening who and watching who
may not have.
May not have handled a floppydisk, but that's going back a
few years ago.
I can't remember the last time.
I don't think my computer evenhas a.
Well, it definitely doesn'thave a disk drive.
I know that for certain.
Alina Vandenburgh (06:17):
I don't have a.
Alex (06:18):
CD-ROM, either it's going back away, but I think that it
sounds like that is what reallypiqued your interest in in in
tech, and it's kind of um, tellme how you've built from, from
there to becoming chief productofficer then of Chili Piper.
How's that all come about?
Alina Vandenburgh (06:37):
so I have this um interesting technology
from my dad and then I have avery polar opposite from my mom
which is an interesting in artand interesting in visuals and
interesting in colors and shapesand and which goes very well
with product.
Because you have to when youbuild software in general, you
(06:59):
have to have a sensitivity forthe velvet and for the way the
product is visually representedto the user, so that the two
combination kind of went verywell together.
I didn't know at that time inschool that product is even a
thing.
I don't think that kids inschool are taught that product
is even a career path still now,not still now not, no, no it's
(07:23):
a very abstract thing.
I don't even know how to.
I don't know how I wouldexplain to a 10 year old what
product is, but now that theyget to experience their iPhones,
with Snapchat and TikTok, theyunderstand that there's somebody
behind that product and theyunderstand that somebody makes
decisions on how that productbehaves and what features go.
So it becomes a little bit moretangible and understand.
(07:46):
Okay, maybe I can be thedecision maker for this product
as well, and maybe I can.
I can do it.
It's again, it's abstract, butit's.
It's more tangible now thatthey have phones in their hands.
Alex (07:59):
No, yeah, definitely, I think, even cause, obviously
I've got children of my own andmy oldest is.
She's choosing her subjects nowand she's thinking about
university and even to this dayI mean as much as they the
schools say that they try Ithink they're way behind in
terms of introducing children totechnical aspects or even, you
(08:23):
know, joining the dots betweenthe artistic side of things and
the technical side of things.
There's still a long way to goin that respect, but it sounds
like you were able to connectthe dots yourself and it's built
into a wonderful career.
But I also get the feeling aswell that you had a burning
desire to be your own boss,rather than be be managed or at
(08:48):
least, um, be in a workplacethat you know somebody is
actually telling you what to do.
I think I always I get thefeeling that you, you wanted to
be that the person who wascalling the shots.
Is that?
Am I right in saying that?
Alina Vandenburgh (09:00):
it's an interesting uh topic the the
leadership and theentrepreneurship that gets built
in Me and my sister.
We have the same education,same type of parenting, same
school teachers, same everything.
And yet from very early on Ihad a very strong independent
(09:24):
personality.
I would not want to hold mymom's hand.
I wanted to explore things.
I wanted to be on my own andtry things.
I definitely have a veryriskier type of personality.
I am okay with risking things.
I'm okay with losing everythingthings.
(09:47):
I'm okay with losing anyeverything.
I'm okay with um going to acertain extent that many of my
friends probably are notcomfortable with, and I don't
know if I was just born likethat or something just clicked
and then I just became.
I had this entrepreneur bug inme, but I can definitely see
sign across the across the waythat I was interested in
(10:08):
starting things on my own.
I always was, and I had amillion odd jobs as a kid.
That would reflect that.
Alex (10:17):
And you even were before your high school.
You had your fingers inentrepreneurship.
You were actually engrossed inentrepreneurship.
Was it a lipstick business?
Alina Vandenburgh (10:27):
I think you mentioned yes, I, I had 40 sales
reps that I was managing to mefor, yeah, for cosmetics, and I
also managed the bills for waterand heat in my, in my building
um, I was also teaching mathclasses, I was training some IT
(10:50):
classes.
I would add so many odd things.
Very, very early on.
I think I might have startedaround I don't know seven, eight
, something like that.
Alex (11:01):
Very early on.
Well, I think that I mean Ilike that.
I mean I again, when it comesto my children, I try to get
them to immerse themselves in asmany things as possible,
because that's that's the onlyway that you can really
understand what you, you likeand what you, you don't like.
I think I don't know.
Alina Vandenburgh (11:18):
I was uh, I was driven for sure by economic
issues at that time because wewere in communist Romania and my
parents were workers infactories and the means were
definitely a problem, and thatsparked my interest in starting
things that would give meindependence.
(11:39):
It's very hard to get kids tobe part of the same kind of
environment, because usuallythese days they're surrounded by
comfort.
They have the food in thefridge, they have heat in the
house and all of that.
Sometimes I was missingessentials and that's what drove
(12:01):
me to do things out of the box.
And that's what drove me to dothings out of the box.
But it's definitely aninteresting topic how to get
kids to have more initiatives,even if they're comfortable.
Alex (12:15):
Yeah, it is a tricky one, and I hear what you're saying
there, because there's so many,I think, lots of things nowadays
that they've got everythingthey need.
I guess, don't they to thrive?
They don't necessarily want forthat much.
I'm speaking in quite generalterms, but if you compare to
what your situation was, and youknow, I suppose in the society
(12:36):
that we are now, western societyespecially I guess there's very
little in terms of wants andneeds for many kids.
But okay, so you've, you know,gone into.
You've had your entrepreneurstreak at a young age.
You've done your.
You've had your team of 40 at avery young age as well.
(12:58):
How did Chili Piper come about?
How did that spark come,because obviously you're a
co-founder as well?
How did that relationshipipercome about?
How did that spark come,because obviously you're a
co-founder as well?
How did that relationship startas well?
Alina Vandenburgh (13:10):
It didn't start immediately.
I didn't understand that I wasan entrepreneur.
I did not understand that I waspassionate about building
something on my own.
I started in a corporate job,like most of us and starting
understanding how corporationsfunction, and I was part of a
(13:32):
big healthcare company, a bigeducation company, big media,
big finance company as well, andI was a bit of a bull in a
Chinatown in that I didn't fullyunderstand how politics within
different corporations work.
I knew that I wanted to be atthe top, but I didn't quite
(13:53):
understand at the beginning howthat whole process works.
I obviously had to learn thehard way, but I've learned some
good politician-like, I guessskills in how things can be
managed and how you get thingsto happen and how you get things
to move.
And the more I explored thatcorporate path and the more I
(14:15):
was climbing the corporateladder, the more I understood
that I was becoming more of apolitician as opposed to more of
a tour, which is the part thatI liked the most, and I just
didn't like who I was becoming.
I talked differently, I behaveddifferently, I took different
actions than what, what I wouldnormally take, and I hated it.
(14:37):
I hated it to the point where Ijust couldn't go to work
anymore.
I was like it's painful and Iwas making more money than I
could ever imagine.
I I I never imagined that Icould.
I could earn that much and Iwas not.
Alex (14:51):
But I was not happy so, when you were at that point
where you're not happy, what,what kind of steps were you
taking to to, uh, to kind of getyourself out of that situation?
Because I mean, I've been in asimilar situation to that myself
, but I felt that, well, this isgoing back a few years ago now,
but I don't know if you feltthe same way.
I felt as though you know I was.
(15:12):
I was wondering who, who couldI speak to?
Who, in terms of you know, howcan I get myself out of the
situation?
Or how can I stop feeling likethis?
What were you, what?
What were the steps that youtook to sort of remedy that?
Alina Vandenburgh (15:24):
I looked around me and I looked at the
kind of people that weresuccessful in the corporations
that I was at and who was theCPO in that company, who was the
chief technology officer or theCIO path which I was in.
I obviously even aimed forbeing a CEO of a large
(15:45):
enterprise and if the founder isnot the CEO but somebody hired
to manage that company, in manycases, at least in where I was,
the passion for buildingsomething was gone.
The drive drive was more forstock, for let's make this share
(16:09):
worth more, um, let's make surethat the revenues are of a
certain size.
It was not about buildingsomething that was interesting,
it was much more aboutshareholders value and I had a
hard time making that my mainmission.
The cash, cash, cash, making itmy main mission.
(16:31):
It's really hard to be drivenby that and that was hard for me
.
I said I cannot become thatperson, I cannot be that person.
Alex (16:40):
Yeah, and I think you've touched on a great point there,
because I mean, there are peoplewhere that money is their main
driver.
But I think if you can't figureout or you're in a situation
where your values are not quitealigned with the people that
you're working with or thebusiness that you're working in,
that's the point at whichyou're unhappy.
That's a trigger in itself thatyou should do something, that
(17:01):
you should do something and youdid.
You were able to identify whatwas passionate, what your
mission was, what was importantto you, I guess, deep down
inside, and take those steps tothen be where you are now, I
guess but I'm sure it wasn't allthat easy.
Did you have to go throughdifferent stages of
(17:23):
understanding actually I likethis, but I don't like that and
crossing things off your listbefore you have to go through
sort of different stages ofunderstanding actually I like
this, but I don't like that andsort of crossing things off your
list before you got to whereyou are now?
Alina Vandenburgh (17:30):
yes, I definitely had to peel a lot of
layers of to understanding who,what I really liked, what I was
really passionate about, who,what I was really good at and
what I was struggling with.
And after a lot ofself-reflection I found that the
thing that I like the most isbuilding software and I like to
(17:53):
come up with interfaces thatsimplify complex processes.
That's my talent and I shouldput it to work.
I should not let it dormant ina closet and dust it off.
And it's interesting becausethis talent of building software
that is easy to use even thoughit solves for complex problems
(18:17):
is not frequent.
It's a rare talent.
I'm currently hiring fromproduct managers and product
designers that can join our team, and it's not easy.
We have hundreds and hundredsof candidates, and I have a
little test that I give them too, and very few pass my test,
like very, very, very few, Iwould say.
One out of 200 barely goes tothe next stage, and it's
(18:40):
interesting that I didn'trealize the scarcity of it, of
this particular talent, and itgoes back to what you said is
that it's very hard to teach itin school.
It's hard to understand talent,but it's needed because our
society depends on technologyquite a lot and it's going to
become even more dependent ontechnology to solve complex
(19:01):
problems.
And as a result, I said youknow what I'm just going to
focus on, that I'm going tofocus on this talent that I have
.
And the fact that I went inenterprise was surprising for me
.
At first I thought I'm going toprobably go to healthcare or to
education, where I thought thatI'm much easier to find the
(19:21):
mission to maybe cure disease,or in healthcare, where you
educate kids.
I'm still very passionate abouteducation.
So the path of enterprise was abit unexpected.
But I understood that becauseof the scarcity of talent in
solving complex problems, evenfewer people go to enterprise
(19:42):
software.
People are much more.
If they have this talent,they're much more likely to go
to enterprise software much more.
People are much more if theyhave this talent, are much more
likely to go to consumersproducts.
That they're more they have anaffinity for um.
So it was interesting path.
I was exposed to enterprisesoftware because of the roles
that I had and I always saw thatthey were clunky and hard to
use and they were not solving myproblems.
They're not making my jobeasier and I said you know,
(20:04):
there has to be somebody to haveto make these jobs easier.
There has to be somebody tosolve, make people happier when
they go to work and make theirjobs easier.
And I can.
Alex (20:12):
I can be that person I have the right exposure to, to
solving their problems and Ithink you've highlighted a great
point as another great pointbecause I mean, I've interviewed
um nick francis of help scout.
I've interviewed um some of thesome great leaders of not not
just um tech leaders but peoplewho, who, um really talk about
(20:38):
understanding your yourself,understanding what problem it is
you're trying to solve first,before you then talk about the
skills you use or the skillsthat you want to use in order to
solve that, that problem.
Because a lot of people goabout it the wrong way, like
you've just alluded to.
They they talk about all theskills that they have and all
the the projects that they'veworked on, but they don't,
because they don't, they haven'tnecessarily gone through the
(20:59):
path that you've gone through inactually using those products
and or at least understandingwhat the problems are and then
picking a problem to solve.
And maybe even, I suppose, whenyou think about healthcare,
healthcare is an obvious youknow there's obvious problems
that people can see inhealthcare, but in enterprise I
guess there's, there aren'tobvious problems unless you've
sort of really be part of it,part of those problems.
(21:21):
So I love that and this is avaluable lesson if anybody's
going to be applying to any ofAlina's roles.
Don't think about your productskills or your tech skills.
First Think about the problemthat you want to solve and, if
you're not yet at the stagewhere you can apply to Alina's
roles, go and work in tech andunderstand those problems,
(21:46):
understand those products moreand understand the problems
behind those, those um, thoseproducts, so you can then
present yourself as a candidatewho can can solve them, um, and
help elena out.
So yeah, I love that.
I love that that particularscenario.
And going back to um elena, soyou've you've identified
(22:06):
yourself now that these areproblems I want to solve.
I'm going to to fast forwardquite far, because I noticed a
post of yours on LinkedIn it wasaround about 2015, 2016, where
you talked about quitting yourjob right, and that's a pretty
big milestone, I guess andbuilding a startup.
Tell me about that.
Alina Vandenburgh (22:27):
It was not easy, because you go from a lot
of income to zero income, and atthat time I did not have
savings and so it was not.
It was not an easy jump, but Icould not do it anymore.
I just could not continue thatpath.
And at the same time my husband, who is a serial entrepreneur,
(22:50):
kept insisting that I shouldjoin him, that I should join him
, that I should join him becausewe have such complementary
skills.
I said you know what?
I'll give it a try.
I'll give it a try at least oneyear, and I'll give him
everything that I have so that Idon't regret it.
And I've not looked back.
Alex (23:07):
I've not looked back ever since so you wouldn't go back
into corporate life now.
Alina Vandenburgh (23:12):
No, I would rather live in a trailer and
sing.
I don't know, I cannot go back.
Alex (23:19):
Well, it sounds like you're on an upper trajectory
with the business anyway, so itdoesn't sound like you need to
look back.
It sounds like it's going inthe right direction.
Alina Vandenburgh (23:27):
It's a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun Excellent.
It sounds like it's going inthe right direction.
It's a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun, excellent.
And I think that the reason whyI like it so much is not
because I'm no longer part of amachinery that the corporate
system can feel like.
It's because I have theopportunity to instill in our
company the kind of values thatI find important when working
(23:49):
with others, in that, forinstance, we don't have much
hierarchy at Chili Piper.
We probably will have to havesome sort of hierarchy as we're
hiring more people, but we havea very flat process right now
and it feels like you're workingwith a lot of smart people and
you're influencing each other inthe right way when you're
building things, and diversityis important for me, and
(24:12):
kindness is important for me,and ownership is important for
me, so that everybody can feellike they're they're
contributing 100, not just a cogin the wheel and um.
Alex (24:24):
That's what makes things even more interesting no, I
think so, and values as well.
It's, it's, it's, it's justwhat makes me me tick.
You know it's what kind of umit makes anybody ticker, if
that's what I think most of thebest.
Uh, businesses when they'rehiring, that's what really draws
people in and gets them toreally fall in love with their
(24:48):
business and really understand.
You know, get that businessfrom from the get go and then
they look at the.
I mean, I think that's, that's,that's my, my feeling anyway,
and I think your values arefront and center on your website
.
You talk about um, help helpingyour, your team members, reach
their full potential.
You know innovating and havingfun.
(25:11):
Who knew you could have fun atwork?
Alina Vandenburgh (25:15):
I know it's a crazy notion.
Alex (25:20):
I mean, I still don't think that people can get not
people in general.
But I mean, when I was workingit wasn't funny.
It just felt like I was thereto sort of learn something and
go home and go back the next dayand it just, like you said, the
hamster wheel, on and on and on.
But for you it sounds likeyou're trying to that's.
(25:41):
That's kind of baked in, thatthat whole aspect of fun and
innovation is baked into to whatyou do and helping one another.
Tell me more about that.
Alina Vandenburgh (25:50):
It's one of the values that comes from my
co-founder the fun part andthat's because, ever since I met
him, he always puts a largesmile on my face from the time I
wake up until the time I go tobed.
He's very funny and he alwaysmanages to find the most in the
(26:12):
most obscure situation, thepositive way to look at it, and
um comes up with way in which wecan find entertainment in in
the most unusual circumstances.
So the the fun value definitelycomes from him.
We think that we're spending somuch time at work right, it's
(26:34):
like almost our whole life.
For me, especially, it's myentire weekday.
It's a shame to make it sad,right?
Yeah, it would be a shame tonot make the most out of it and
find beauty in the things thatwe do, beauty in that
(26:55):
positiveness and a learningopportunity in which maybe a
client has a bad day and screamsat us, for instance, and then
we can learn that we can takethat and make his day a bit
better with something we cancome up with, with a way to to
entertain him as well.
And it's important for us to tomake things fun.
(27:16):
Uh, for instance, one of thethings that we did and I don't
have a sample here.
It we did this a little chilisauce because it's a play on our
company name, and it says lighta fire under your sass sass
software as a service.
But you can also put theletters in a different way.
Uh, so we we use all theopportunities to to have fun for
(27:37):
sure yeah, I mean I'm lookingat your website as well now.
Alex (27:41):
I can see there's some, there's some pictures and it.
You look, you guys look likeyou are having fun.
I think you should bring thatout more because I you know that
that to me is the kind of vibeand the kind of that's the kind
of atmosphere I want when I goto work.
It's like I said I when I Imean I've been working now for
the last what 20 years and halfof that has been working for
(28:05):
other people and it wasn't funand you know they they tried as
much as they can they could tokind of introduce the things
like the perk, the pool tableand the, you know, the free
breakfast, and it all seemedvery sort of um contrived, but
with you guys, it's, it's, it'snatural.
So that's definitely one of you,that's a usp, that you, that is
(28:28):
is difficult to um, it's reallydifficult to to demonstrate,
but you guys are doing it reallywell so it's.
Alina Vandenburgh (28:35):
It's interesting because we're remote
, um, so we cannot have thoseperks that you're talking about.
Right, I cannot.
We all work from wherever wewant to.
If you find a tennis court andyou bring it on and then you
play, that's the part of yourtime management.
But within the meetings that wehave, within the call that we
have for when we meet in person,for sure we make the most out
(28:58):
of it, and it becomes a bit moreintense like that when you're
meeting your colleagues lessoften.
It's you you'll make sure thatyou make the most of that time
in person that you have.
Alex (29:10):
Definitely.
And you mentioned remote workand I think that in itself it
just changes the game where workis concerned, because, again,
I've worked in a co-locatedscenario.
I'm not saying you can't havefun in those situations, but
each to their own, and I meanI've had most of my fun working
on a remote basis and thatdoesn't mean I've been isolating
(29:32):
myself by any means, but it'sstill very much a team ethic
there.
But I think um, the remote workis is a gift that that helps in
so many different ways and it'sit's helping your team to grow
as well.
Alina Vandenburgh (29:42):
Tell me more about your, your decision behind
um going remote it was a very,very easy decision and that I
definitely am passionate aboutdiscovering new places and
traveling and learning aboutpeople's cultures and diversity
and understanding how differentmotivations work on different
(30:05):
parts of the planet anddifferent problems different
people face.
And, um it, as soon as youbecome emerged in cultures that
are different than yours, yourmind kind of opens up and you
understand issues in a globalsense in a way that you wouldn't
have.
I can take a typical person whodoesn't have, for instance, in
(30:29):
us, that doesn't have a uspassport, that hasn't traveled
across outside of the us borders.
It's hard for them tounderstand climate change.
It's it's harder for them tounderstand, uh, why?
Uh, an issue that comes from apolitical driven um uh campaign
for something to happen in in,in, in iran or afghanistan.
(30:54):
All these things are veryabstract.
Yes, they're like they're,they're headlines in a newspaper
, but they don't affect you, sothey become completely
irrelevant to your life, whereaswhen you travel and you've been
to some of these places you'vebeen to egypt, in the, in the,
in the center.
You've been to turkey, toistanbul.
You've been to some of theseplaces.
You've been to Egypt, in thecenter.
You've been to Turkey, toIstanbul, you've been to China,
(31:15):
those stories.
They become meaningful.
You understand how these peopleget affected and that it's not
only you, your borders, that areaffecting how you live.
And because of that diversity,I feel like I'm a more, I'm a
better person, and I would loveif I can share that kind of
growth that I've experienced bytraveling to many other people.
(31:39):
It's not so much about um, it'snot so much about uh culture,
but it's it's more ofunderstanding how issues affect
us all when we're doingsomething, how everybody gets
affected, and I love to sharethat.
And I'm really grateful thatwe're quite diverse right now.
(32:03):
We're from so many countriesand so many cities and, as a
result, I feel like we're alllearning from each other so much
, so much and you've grown soquickly as well.
Alex (32:12):
I mean, I, I was um speaking to to Nicholas
yesterday.
Nicholas is the co-founder ofum, chili Piper, and he was um.
I was saying that I was readingan article.
It was dated 2018 and, um, atthat time, you had 28 people and
right now you have 42.
And would you say that workingon a remote basis has enabled
(32:37):
that growth?
Alina Vandenburgh (32:41):
Well, we have bigger goals than that.
40 is just the beginning.
I would love to get employeesin every country and then get to
know how that culture can work.
But for sure it's easier tofind talent when you're not
(33:02):
restricted by boundaries,especially now.
I live in New York and New Yorkis super competitive.
There's Google, there's Amazon,there's Facebook fighting for
tech talent, and a kid out ofschool here who has finished
computer science can get upwardsof $100,000 in salaries, and
for a startup it's very hard tocompete with tech giants like
(33:27):
that, Whereas us we're notrestricted.
We can hire anywhere.
We can hire anywhere we findtalent and people that are
willing to learn and get on apath of rocket ship.
Alex (33:45):
Yeah, it's a fast-moving, it's a fast pace.
You've got there.
What is the makeup of your,your, your team right now?
Do you have a?
I know you said you're quiteflat in your structure, but I
have you sort of segmented itinto different departments as
yet we have the engineers.
Alina Vandenburgh (34:00):
Like everybody, we, the the engineers
that I have scrums with everyday um, we have the sales team
that is rapidly growing.
We just hired a CMO and the CMOis hiring the marketing engine.
So far we've functioned withoutmarketing.
I don't know how we did that.
It's interesting because we putthese job posts on and we
(34:26):
advertise them on websites likewe work remotely and things like
that on and we advertise themon websites like we work
remotely and things like that.
And I try to advertise onfemale only distribution
channels as well, but we stillget a majority of applicants are
male.
I really want to get morefemale candidates.
I try to spread as much as Ican the the job post on on on
(34:50):
this website so that we can getmuch more female representation.
Alex (34:56):
It's for sure in we're diverse in in culture, but we're
not yet diverse in in femaleversus male, and I I'm I'm
fighting to change that yeah, Imean I don't know if you read
the website, but that's onething that I'm passionate about
also, because obviously there'sa disparity where that's
(35:17):
concerned isn't there, and Ithink there's so many different
theories.
Is it a pipeline issue?
Alina Vandenburgh (35:26):
It's a pipeline for us.
For sure, 100%.
Such a small percentage offemale.
Alex (35:29):
For sure, 100, such a small percentage of email it
really is such a smallpercentage, and it's, it's
hiring in itself is is isdifficult enough without trying
to to find a needle in ahaystack, isn't it?
So it's, it's, um, it's, it'sone of those things that I'm
really passionate about and um,you know, if you are looking for
a new role, I'd urge you to goand have a look at Chili Piper's
(35:52):
website and speak to Alina andI'll share this out as far as I
can as well, to hopefully drumup some support your way, alina,
as well.
Alina Vandenburgh (36:02):
That'd be awesome.
That'd be awesome.
I have a very interestingrecruiting process that I don't
think anybody else has.
I don't look at resumes.
I do not look at schools.
I don't even care if they wentto school.
Alex (36:19):
Wow, okay.
Alina Vandenburgh (36:21):
I don't care how long they've been working.
They could work 10 years or amonth, I don't care.
What I really care about isthat they do well on my test,
and my test is is very hard, asI was telling you, and it's
interesting.
I don't even look at theirnames, so I don't even know what
country they come.
(36:41):
I don't even know their gender.
I don't know anything, I justlook at the test is well done.
Alex (36:46):
I'm I'm really tempted to ask you what's on that test, but
I'm sure you're not gonna.
You're not that test, but I'msure you're not gonna.
You're not gonna divulge it,are you?
You're not gonna, you're notgonna say, but that is very on
you.
I mean, there are aspects ofthat that are are kind of
becoming more free, um used now.
So, for example, no resumes and, you know, a blind interview
essentially, but it's blind,blind completely.
(37:08):
But I think the experiencefactor is is quite unusual,
especially in remote, because alot of people I've spoken to, a
lot of the ceos, I've spoken tohiring managers, say that they
ideally want people who have,you know, have some experience
of whatever it is that they'regoing to be doing, because they
(37:29):
don't necessarily want to beholding their hand or having to
sort of guide them throughcertain steps.
But yeah, that is unusual, butI'm intrigued, alina, I'm really
intrigued well.
Alina Vandenburgh (37:38):
Well, it's, it's the skills.
When you start work, it'shaving the right skills to to do
the job really well, and thoseskills are not reflected in the
resume or in anything else butyour work.
So that's the part that I'mtesting with it, and it's a
timed test that has some superhard questions and some super
(38:00):
hard things to do within a superrestricted time.
So you have to be super greedyand super motivated and
multitasking at the same time.
So I think that's the reasonwhy why it's harder than the
normal recruiting process soother than we work remotely a
bit of a plug, therefore.
Alex (38:18):
We were remotely.
What other places are youadvertising your roles and how
are you trying to?
How are you attracting peopleto the chili piper?
Alina Vandenburgh (38:30):
we have a network of recruiters as well in
some countries.
Um, we have some websites wherewe post.
We also get a lot of applicantsfrom linkedin.
We are quite active on linkedin, um, not as uh, not as an uh
outbound, but more because oursalespeople post whenever they
(38:52):
see something interesting andthen somebody else sees their
post and they say, oh, thesepeople are having fun, versus
our account executives.
I don't know how they manage tofind each other, but they love
skiing and snowboarding, so theyoften post videos and pictures
of them snowboarding and peoplewonder well, where do you work
on top?
Alex (39:11):
of mountains.
Alina Vandenburgh (39:14):
It's an unusual post for a salesperson
and similarly, we have ourcustomer success team just
decided to move to Colombia, sothey post a lot of pictures in
like super cool places and andat the carnival.
So people are interested andand they say, oh, these people
are not, do not have yourtypical nine to five to five
(39:37):
jobs.
Alex (39:37):
I want to be part of it I think that's a big hook and, um,
you know, uh, tax jar as well,tax jarcom.
They they're going the sameroute in terms of they focus on
their values as well and theyfocus on what they do outside of
work, because, at the end ofthe day, you can get a million
people that have got like aproduct manager CV or a
(40:02):
marketing manager or a marketingdirector CV, but, at the end of
the day, what really hookspeople in, I guess, is the
things like the travel, is thethings like cooking, or is the
things like the things that theyshare, the things that they
have in common.
Right, that's what draws peoplein.
Alina Vandenburgh (40:19):
Definitely there's an aspect of similarity
in hobbies and passions.
Obviously the community is veryimportant for every one of us
and being part of that communitynot on that business that you
work timetable, but on your owntimetable, so that I don't know
if you have a kid and you wantto pick them up at a certain
(40:41):
time from school, there's norestriction on that, and if you
want to cycle at 2 pm becausethat's when there are no, that's
when there's no traffic.
It definitely creates adifferent rhythm in people's
life and a space for them to bepassionate about things that
they would not be passionateabout otherwise.
Alex (41:04):
It's like I said before, it's a gift when you worked in a
scenario, like I said, remotework doesn't suit everybody, but
when you worked in a scenariothat doesn't suit you, when you
then move to a scenario thatsuits you, whether it be remote
or not, but especially remotefor me, it's a gift Because,
like Alina said, you can do thethings that you perhaps couldn't
(41:24):
do if you were I don't know ina job that demanded that you
work late, for example, and youknow those sorts of things, and
you didn't have a balance.
So you've managed to strike abalance yourself, haven't you,
alina?
In terms of running twobusinesses, and you've had a
(41:44):
little new arrival to yourfamily quite recently as well.
Alina Vandenburgh (41:49):
I had a baby, which has changed a lot of
things for sure.
Um, back to back to yourobservation that remote work is
not for everyone.
It's indeed the case.
We observe that not everybodycan resist within this uh
framework, because youdefinitely need to be a bit more
self-disciplined and a littlebit more self-aware, and it we
(42:14):
had employees that got isolatedand then they decided not to be
part of community office or ordo things outside of that
staying at home and working andthat can burn you out as well.
So it's definitely not foreverybody.
You have to be very much awareof how you spend your time and
how you get to interact with theworld.
(42:37):
The part for me that clicked isthat I have to work on things
that are more creative, I guess,than your typical role, and
ideas don't come to me when Isit at my desk.
Ideas come to me when I walk.
Ideas come to me when I bike,when I exercise, and I sometimes
(42:59):
get stuck on something and Icannot proceed and I go and I do
something.
That's a bit more unusual.
Boom, an idea comes to me.
So for me it suits me very well.
I also don't like to do thingsthat normally people like to do.
I don't like to cook.
Unfortunately, I like to eat,but I don't like to cook.
I don't like to go shopping.
Um, so, as a result, I I amreally attached to the work that
(43:24):
I do.
I really like software andbuilding software, and that's
what I think about in theevening, that's what I think
about in the weekends, so it'sdefinitely, it definitely suits
me.
Um, well, now that I have ababy, and a child as well, I'm
much more um intentional aboutmy time, for sure.
Yeah, um, in that I am veryaware if I do something that's
(43:49):
not beneficial for me or for himin his education, like
scrolling mindlessly on socialmedia or I don't know, staring
at articles that are not goingto make me a better person.
It has changed things a bit,yeah.
Alex (44:10):
Yeah, and that intent is yeah, it doesn't suit everybody
as bit.
Yeah, yeah, and that intent isyeah, it doesn't suit everybody.
As we've said, that intent isimportant.
I think I I did a podcast theother day about looking after
your your not just your mentalhealth, because mental health is
getting a lot of coverage rightnow, but I think, especially as
as a somebody who worksremotely because sometimes
(44:32):
there's a habit, we sit downquite a lot, I guess, unless you
have a sit-stand desk, forexample you have to look after
your physical health as well,the physical side of things, and
especially, like you said, nowyou have a child Alina, I've got
my children you have to bementally and physically equipped
to deal with all thosedifferent um scenarios.
(44:52):
So you have to have knowyourself, like kalina says, you
have to know what you want to do, but then you have to have the
discipline to to actually dothose things.
Don't just say you're going togo and exercise or go and ride
your bike, um, or go for a walk.
Do do it, um, and really findout what those passions are for
you.
And how has it been with you,um, uh, with, with your, with
(45:14):
your, with your baby?
How have you, how are youbalancing everything?
Alina Vandenburgh (45:19):
I think I don't.
I uh, I am lucky because I havemy mom around and she's very
good with my baby.
So, as a result, I don't havethat in the back of my mind,
that it gives me the kind ofpeace of mind that I don't think
(45:41):
any other organization would.
I know that he's in good handsand my mom loves him and he
loves her.
So I'm lucky.
I'm very lucky in that regard.
I'm very aware of it andwhenever I do spend time with
him, I make sure that it's hyperquality time that we enjoy.
We don't look at screens Idon't even have a TV service at
(46:05):
home, so there's no risk of that.
We're doing a lot of outdooractivities.
We make sure that we get a lotof air and vitamin D.
Vitamin D is a hot topic thesedays.
Alex (46:19):
Oh yeah, so important.
Alina Vandenburgh (46:24):
There's definitely.
I'm still trying to figure itall out how to best be a human
and how to be good at this newgame for me the parenting part.
I'm reading a lot of books.
I'm becoming very passionateabout learning everything there
is to know and all thescientific literature on the
(46:45):
subject, but it's a fun path.
Alex (46:48):
Yeah, it is, and I think you learn as you go along.
I think it's one of those rolesthat you can't there's no job
description for it and there'sno sort of, like you know, list
of things to do now and this iswhat you should do at this
scenario.
You kind of you learn on thejob, On the job.
Alina Vandenburgh (47:06):
Yeah.
Alex (47:09):
And that whole thing of balance.
I think that word balance, Isuppose it does put you, it puts
people under pressure, doesn'tit?
Because it makes you think thateverything should be sort of
sort of like perfectly aligned.
But for me, what I've learnedis that the balance is is that
everything is as happy as it canbe, everything is sort of
(47:30):
ticking along as it can be.
That balance does change, youknow, but it kind of you work it
out, you work, you work it outeventually.
So that's great and I, I admireyou for what you're doing, elena
, in terms of growing yourbusiness, um, you know, and, and
your family, it's, it's andtraveling and remote work.
For me, you've got, you've got,you've got.
You've got everything sortedout as far as I'm concerned.
(47:52):
So I really admire what you'redoing.
So what is in the?
I don't want to take up toomuch of time.
I could ask you so many morequestions, but, um, I don't want
to take up too much of yourtime, but I wanted to ask you
what's in, what's on the horizonfor for chili piper, what?
What are your plans for the upand coming months, next year or
so?
Alina Vandenburgh (48:12):
well, first of all, I want to just step back
for one second and justpinpoint something in that you
are definitely a positive personand showing a lot of gratitude,
and I think that's a superimportant, a super important
value.
We often forget that gratitudeshould be part of our everyday
(48:35):
routine.
It changes a lot of things andit allows us to view things in a
new light.
With that said, I think that,as I'm looking at the future of
Chili Piper and our company,keeping that particular value is
(48:56):
very important to me.
At scale, making sure thatpeople don't forget to be kind
to one another, that we don'tforget to be grateful of the
things and seeing positivenessin our interactions, is going to
be interesting to manage atscale.
Keeping a self-startingorientation in everybody to have
(49:25):
that kind of ownership whereeverybody can affect everything
and there's no organizationalstructure, is going to be
interesting at scale as well.
So there's definitely a lot ofthinking that we'll have to go
through in terms of operationsas we're scaling and how to keep
that same fun attitude that wehave towards work.
(49:52):
At the same time, in order tosustain ourselves and in order
to sustain our employees, wehave to grow revenue as well, of
course and that is important ineverything that we do, we have
to become sustainable and beeconomically viable, so we're
going to look at how that cancan change things as well.
(50:13):
Our products right now are allavailable to enterprise setup,
so you have to talk to a rep toset you up because they're quite
complex, but we're currentlyexploring ways in which we can
make them available forself-service so that people can
come in and just set themselvesup.
It's not it's not entirely easy, but for search and use cases
it is if the company is smaller.
(50:35):
So that's what, personally, I'mfocusing on right now from a
product perspective as well, and, as a result, I'm hiring super
smart designers and productmanagers.
So if you have anyone who'slistening to the podcast, who
wants to work from hawaii and towork from new zealand uh on
cool, uh on hard problems go toour website and apply.
(50:59):
Don't get scared of the test.
Um, but yeah, those are thethings that I'm thinking about
that are on top of my mind well,guys, I did try to get as much
as I could out of Alina aboutthe test.
Alex (51:12):
I wasn't fortunate to do that, so what I will ask her,
though what I will ask you,alina, is how can somebody make
themselves an attractivepotential hire to your business
outside of their?
Alina Vandenburgh (51:27):
Well, yeah, I'll just leave the floor open
to you it's not only chili piper, I think it's any organization,
anybody trying to grow and thenbe a better uh, suitable
candidate is exposure to as manydiverse things as possible.
It's very important that we getskills that are complementary
(51:52):
to each other but also quitediverse, in that if you're, for
instance, an engineer, youshould definitely look into
design, you should definitelylook into interaction design,
you should definitely understandproduct management as well,
because that makes you a betterengineer.
Similarly, if you're a productmanager, you should definitely
understand a bit of javascript,a bit of java, a bit of a bit of
(52:13):
all these languages, becausethen you can talk better to the
engineers, understand theirproblems and understand where
they're coming from.
And it's the same for everyrole, as as soon as you can
expose yourself and be curiousjust be curious about different
areas of expertise you justbecome better.
So I think that's a generalthing that can apply to not only
(52:34):
um, not only chili piper, butfor any.
Alex (52:37):
Any other job that one can apply for is is arm yourself
with diverse skill setabsolutely, and yeah, I would
agree with you because that'sthat what you've just said is
reflected by many of the otherpeople who are hiring and many
of the CEOs.
That is just that diversity ofskills of thought of you know
all, that's all criticalthinking, yeah, yeah.
(52:58):
Yeah Well, alina, it's beenabsolutely wonderful speaking to
you.
As I said, I've got lots morequestions I'd like to ask, but I
know you're busy.
As I said, I've got lots morequestions I'd like to ask, but I
know you're busy.
Anybody who's curious aboutChili Piper and the jobs, please
go to chilipipercom that'sc-h-i-l-i.
Pipercom and have a look attheir jobs pages and check them
(53:25):
out, and I recommend having alook and see what you can see.
But, alina, thank you so muchfor joining me on the Remote
Work Life podcast.
I'll certainly be keeping aneye on what Chili Piper is doing
and what you and Nicholas aredoing.
So all the best with it for thefuture.
Alina Vandenburgh (53:41):
Thank you, alex.
I had a lot of fun you too, andlet me know when the episode is
up so that I can share it.
Alex (53:50):
I certainly will Thank you , Alina.
Alina Vandenburgh (53:53):
Bye-bye, bye.
Alex (53:55):
So there you have it.
That was my interview therewith Alina Vandenberg of Chili
Piper.
I hope you enjoyed that, andit's quite appropriate that we
finish by talking about jobs,because I know right now there's
lots of insecurity, there'slots of uncertainty around jobs
and lots of people I know arebeing made redundant, which is
really unfortunate because ofthe situation with the
(54:17):
coronavirus and restrictions onwork and the effects it's having
upon business.
I hope you're not in thatsituation yourself, but if you
are, please continue to listenand watch out for future videos
that I'm going to release,because I'm hoping that they can
help.
They'll help you in some way to, I guess, understand what you
(54:38):
need to do if you are trying totransition from your current
situation to a new situation,especially if you're trying to
find remote work opportunities,because all the videos I'll be
releasing there'll be aroundabout 30 or so of them all the
videos I'll be releasing will beinterviews and conversations
(54:58):
I've had with CEOs, leaders andexperts within remote businesses
, so they'll focus mainly onwhat it's like to work in a
remote business, so that you,too, can know yourself what it's
like.
You know what to expect.
I'll talk also, or we'll talk,about remote work, culture and
communication and tech, all thatsort of thing how to thrive
(55:20):
while working from home that'sgoing to be an important topic
right now.
So listen out for the videos,because I'll also be obviously
covering bonafide remotebusinesses and there's lots of,
I guess, quite dubiousopportunities in inverted commas
, dubious opportunities andbusinesses out there right now.
So you can be sure that theones I'll be covering will be
(55:41):
bonafide business leaders andbonafide businesses.
So look out for that.
Look out for those videos aswell as the audio.
I'll be publishing the videos onremoteworklifeio and I'd urge
you to follow the hashtag remotebut together, so that you don't
miss a beat, so you don't missa video that will be published.
(56:05):
And on a final note, I mean ifyou are experiencing uncertainty
in your career, I just want toremind you that I help managers
gain clarity and direction intheir careers through one-to-one
and group career coaching.
And if you find yourself in asituation where you, or your
team, in fact, have been maderedundant, I work with coaching
(56:26):
associates and we can help toput together a plan for you to
help you to at least begin tothink about and think about what
you need to do to transitionfrom where you are now to you
know well, not first andforemost, but eventually you'll
need to start to think aboutwhere you're headed in the
(56:47):
future, and I and my teamcertainly can help you with that
.
But for now, that is all fromme, from the Remote Work Life
podcast.
As I said, check outremoteworklifeio for future
interviews.
Follow the hashtag remote puttogether so you can stay up to
(57:10):
date when new interviews arepublished, and I will speak with
you soon.
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