September 1, 2024 • 38 mins
FROM THE ARCHIVE: Rowena Henigan shares her personal story of transitioning to remote work amidst family health challenges and how it allowed her to maintain her career while moving to Spain for her child's asthma. Discover how remote work has empowered Rowena, both personally and professionally, from her early days with a telecommunications company to her roles with large insurance companies and her aspirations as a digital nomad.
Managing clients across different time zones can be daunting, but Rowena offered advice on overcoming these challenges while maintaining a work-life balance. We talked about the steep learning curve associated with mastering various video conferencing tools and adapting to remote work. Our discussion also touches on the need for self-discipline and routine to prevent overwork and burnout, emphasizing the importance of intentional self-care practices to stay productive and well.
Incorporating wellness into remote work life is essential, and Rowena provided tips on maintaining self-care through manageable chunks of time and creative activities. Learn how taking breaks can enhance productivity and why human connection is vital in the virtual world. Through personal anecdotes and practical advice, we highlighted the necessity of supportive conversations, empathy, and trust among remote teams.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (00:00):
Hi, it's Alex Geller from the Remote Work
Life Podcast.
I hope you're well, whereveryou may be in the world.
I have yet another specialguest today with me.
I have Rowena Hennigan, andRowena is a remote work skills
expert.
She's got unique experience ofdesigning and delivering
university accredited courses inthat subject.
(00:21):
She's passionate aboutwell-being in remote work, which
is what we all need, especiallyin organizations.
It's obviously vital and sheviews that as vital in effective
operations, and I couldn'tagree more.
She is the employee programsremote expert for two large
insurance companies.
Now Rowena works 100% remotefrom Spain hard'd love to be
(00:44):
there right now and she'sfounded two fully remote
companies herself.
She's founded Row Remote andRise, which is R-I-S-E in
capital letters.
So Rise, which is all aboutemotional intelligence, and
she's, of course, a seasoneddigital nomad.
Rowena, I just want to saythank you so much for taking the
(01:07):
time to join us today andyou're very welcome thanks, alex
, and thanks for the fabulousintroduction.
Rowena Henningan (01:14):
It's lovely to join you today no, it's
wonderful.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (01:17):
It's that first conversation we had a
couple of weeks ago because Imet rowena.
We were met via LinkedIn, Ibelieve it was.
I met via referral.
Somebody recommended you to theshow and I thought let me have
a look.
So I looked and I'd heard ofyou before and you're somebody
who is well known in the worldof remote work and very much a
(01:40):
pioneer, I would have said,within the world of remote work.
So what I really want to knowis how did you come to be the
remote work expert that you aretoday?
Rowena Henningan (01:53):
I guess it started back in 2007.
I was working with atelecommunications company in
Ireland, in the west of Ireland,who are now known as Avaya, but
back then, alex, they werecalled Nel and I was part of a
global team.
We were allowed you know, wewere enabled to work remotely in
the early days of things likeMicrosoft Communicator and early
(02:13):
communication tools, and Iworked a lot between the UK and
Ireland and I started workingand set on a virtual team then
and it really opened my mind toit.
And around that time as well, Idid some traveling and I began
to realize that I could workvirtually and it wasn't complete
remote work as we know it nowbecause it was in its early
(02:34):
stages, but that was my firsttaster.
And then fast forward on toaround 2012, I was pregnant with
my daughter and living inDublin and, yeah, I started to
work a little bit from home on acouple of the the contracts I
had at the time and that youknow, with you have children.
(02:55):
When you have kids or whenyou're moving into family life,
remote work is really flexible,it really supports you and it
was something that I thought.
This is great.
I'm leaning on this skill, thisway of life again.
I'm really interested in it.
It's part of my passion, and asI was working through those in
a kind of hybrid model, as wecall it now, with two contracts,
(03:17):
I began to notice some of theskills you need to work remotely
.
I my background is in marketing, communications and psychology,
and I was really interested inhow we communicated virtually,
how we made our intentions clear, how we were self-leaders,
self-managers, as individualremote workers.
(03:38):
And then a big life changehappened for me and it's a big
part of my story my daughter,around the age of one, developed
quite bad asthma chronic asthmain fact.
So those first uh, couple ofyears of her early life were
very stressful, to the pointwhere myself and my husband
moved to Spain because we wereseeking a drier climate for her
(04:01):
and and and that is where Isuddenly really, really it was
like the life lesson to go.
Remote work has enabled me.
First of all, enabled me tokeep my career going with a very
sick child and I can flash backto 2014 and 15 surviving on
very such low levels of sleepfor nearly three years in total,
(04:22):
but managing to work a littlebit flexibly with my in the two
contracts I had then, and thenbeing able to change my whole
life and move to Spain with myfamily and enable my daughter's
health because of being using,taking advantage of appreciating
the remote work way of life.
(04:43):
And in my introduction you saidI'm a digital nomad.
Now I have a confession I'm awannabe digital nomad.
It's a bit different, difficultwith it with a young child, but
I still love to travel.
I go to Bali.
I work from there because Ihave family there.
I've been to France because Ihave family there and work from
there when I go back to Ireland,it's the same.
(05:04):
So it's a way of life for meand I am really, really
appreciative and grateful toremote work as a way of life and
a way of thinking and a way ofworking, because it really kept
me sane when I needed it andkept me working, and that's why
I'm so passionate about it.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (05:23):
And you said Ashley actually counted
about two or three times whichyou said it's a way of life and
it's um, couldn't agree more.
And it's, it's.
It's a way of life that and bythe from the sounds of what
you've just said, it's, it'senabled you.
It's again, it's an enabler.
It enables you to build thelife that you want and that you
need.
It's helped you to to move outto, to spain, to help your
(05:45):
daughter, to be able to applyyour expertise wherever you may
be in the world, at the samelevel that you would do, or
probably even better than youwould do, if you were in an
office and you built a greatcareer and now you're advising
people on, on um, on remote work, and exactly exactly you, I
(06:05):
mean, you mentioned traveling.
I mean, and in fact, maybe whatwe should say at the top of the
show as well, is that a bit of adisclaimer in the sense that
we're certainly not in a kind ofa normal situation as things
stand at the moment?
This by no means and I keepsaying this because lots of
people are still conflating thetwo but, um, this is us being
(06:26):
forced to work from home.
This is not remote work, sothere are constraints, as Rowena
was saying about her ability totravel and all those other
sorts of things.
But no, I mean, it sounds likeyou've been able, you are have
been able to, um, build a greatlife for yourself.
Uh, you've.
You've got your clients now aswell, across the world.
Where are your clientsdistributed?
Rowena Henningan (06:47):
So I have clients in Europe.
I have some international workas well with the States.
I mean, I choose, I'm asolopreneur and I have the other
company you mentioned, RiseEmotional Intelligence, which is
looking at services forcorporates in emotional
intelligence, specifically forremote teams, virtual teams, and
(07:07):
that's with co-founder SandraThompson out of the UK, who
we've never met.
We founded the company in July.
We've never met.
My own consultancy service andcompany is mostly European
because I choose it that waybecause of time zone.
So I want to make that clear aswell.
I do have some further off work, but that's also the joy.
(07:30):
I mean, time zones can be achallenge and as well as being,
you know, an advocate for remotework it's my own flavor of
remote work.
I say to myself that I don'twant to be on calls generally at
11 o'clock at night and becauseof the nature of my work
consulting and training I wouldneed to do that if I was working
a lot with the safe.
So for now I'm choosing thatEuropean zone which is more time
(07:52):
zone, friendly with the family.
But that's all part of thevalues that go with this way of
life, to what you said, and thentaking that way of life and
that purpose that it can bringto you, because your priorities
are often different.
Some of my priorities when mydaughter was sick were forced on
me.
I didn't have the choice.
(08:12):
I had to work in the couple ofhours after I'd had it, you know
, in between naps or whateverWhereas now I look at life
differently and I look at thosevalues and that purpose from
that experience.
And what's interesting andthanks for reminding, because we
can never forget is we areliving through such an
exceptional, extraordinary time.
(08:33):
What many people are doing andeven you know I did it for five
months solid it's not trueremote work.
If you're confined in your home, with emergency home working,
it's not the same and you arerestricted, you have stress, you
have distractions, you havecompeting responsibilities, and
what's interesting for me is ashard as this last year has been
(08:57):
for everyone in different ways.
It actually reminded me ofthose values.
You reminded me of those values.
It actually brought back to methe importance of choosing
flexible work to prioritize yourwork-life balance and
well-being as an individual, andand that that that's why I'm so
passionate as well aboutindividual remote workers being
(09:17):
aware of that for themselves andknowing that they can choose
that and that's another wordyou've used, uh, quite often
initially, something that'sapplied to not just you but many
others in your situation choice, choosing, having the ability
to choose, but at the same timeit doesn't detract from the.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (09:35):
You know, the work and the all that kind
of thing.
Having choices is so importantand you've been able to, to
build that in, but, of course,it's been by no means easy going
, I'm sure, and this kind of umway of work, as is, you know,
when you're first starting out,if you don't have, even if
(09:55):
you're quite experienced, anyway, it can be, it can have its
demands, can't it?
Um, what sort of challenges didyou face when you were sort of
starting out?
And I mean, yeah, how did youovercome those challenges?
Rowena Henningan (10:09):
There is definitely a learning curve, and
there can be a learning curveparticularly as a sort of in
that freelance solopreneur modelwhere you're dealing with
different companies all the time.
So I'll give you an example Atone point in june, I was using
14 different video conferencingtools for a large presentation
wow, okay of different ilks andsome of them I don't name names
(10:35):
because I don't want to get introuble I was like, if they
don't really want that to happen, I would get back to the link
and having to to, I mean, Iobviously I'm 20 odd years in my
career, so, like us joking atthe start, alex, when some piece
of technology doesn't work,it's all about experience.
But there was a steep learningcurve when I started out remote
(10:57):
and established my company, rowRemote in 2017.
Learning the tool,understanding more about
asynchronous communications, thelevels of remote work, applying
them to myself, then lookingaround back then and trying to
learn more about GitHub, gitlabI mean Andy Treba that you had
on from Crossover would besomeone that I have followed and
(11:19):
admired and I listened to thepodcast great podcast episode
with him and so much to learnabout how he's taken, for
example, and other companies andother leaders in the space
about how they were doing thingsin remote.
So I had that challenge oflearning and then this year
(11:39):
that's been acceleratedcompletely, been accelerated
completely.
So that challenge of keeping upto date and understanding what
is out there in terms of remotework and the different maturity
stages and models but thenapplying it to your own personal
or company or team situation.
Obviously that's somethingthat's ongoing and you're always
learning and it's almost likeyou have to almost remind
(12:03):
yourself that it's constantlyevolving.
But the good news for listenersis and I'm sure you would agree
that the wealth and quality ofinformation now is astounding in
these recent months and peoplecan join in and learn so much
quicker than someone, say, whowas trying to get into remote
(12:24):
work five or 10 years ago.
There's a lot more easy,accessible information in the
community to build up theYouTube videos, those how-to
documents, all of that.
So that was one of thechallenges.
The other challenge as well andit's a known challenge within
the whole area of remote work isthat potential to overwork,
(12:47):
which could lead into burnout.
So I'm mostly sitting in my I'min my co-working space today I
do have my husband he's in anoffice near me, but I'm on my
own and in a physical, in-personsense most days.
So I have to be my own boss interms of hours, in terms of
routine, and that's somethingthat can also be a challenge,
(13:08):
and it's one of the areas I'mreally interested in as a remote
worker, because you can feelthat you are challenged or may
have some difficulties in howyou see that working day and
those working hours.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (13:23):
You know I was as you were talking.
There.
I'm nodding away because I'mthinking to myself.
That's something I experiencedas well.
That happened to me too.
It's kind of it's amazing whenyou you start to talk to other
people, especially other peoplelike you, with your expertise
and the fact you've workedremotely and you've been to,
when you actually, when I wasactually starting out, my
learning went down.
(13:44):
It just went down the pan backin 2009 because, like, like you
say, you have to be moredeliberate about um searching
out for searching out theinformation, understanding what
current and you know there'slots of information, he said,
and there's sometimes quite alot to actually trawl through on
the internet but, yeah, I could, I could really, uh, understand
that and the overwork as well.
That's something probably Istill do, um, and I think when
(14:07):
we last spoke, I admitted tothat, didn't I?
Rowena Henningan (14:09):
when I was but we're all human and I mean I do
it some days as well, of coursewe're all human, but it's that,
it's having converse, openconversations like this, because
you maybe don't have that in.
I mean, I've worked in in inreal teams and I'm sure you did
as well before, in real officespaces where someone might turn
(14:31):
around and go oh, you haven'thad your lunch, alex.
Yeah, let's go for lunch.
Yeah, sitting near you.
We don't have that, and so howdo we put in a framework or a
support infrastructure around uswhere we build our intention or
our deliberate intention tomake sure we take our breaks, to
make sure that we keep thatbalance?
(14:53):
As I said, it won't be perfectevery day, so don't beat
yourself up about it.
But in the main.
And then, what can we do?
Like what you and I've beendoing just have a chat, compare
notes, what works for you, shareopenly and then reach out into
the virtual world, becausethat's what I'm sure you'll know
from the podcast as well thecommunity is so supportive and
you can reach out to people.
(15:15):
And if there is somethingthat's bugging you about your
hours, about your maybe stresslevels, whatever it may be,
about feeling a little bitsocially isolated.
There's a lot of support out inthe remote work world.
In relation to that, andactually in the show notes,
there's a fabulous site calledmeet cafecito.
I'm using my spanish, um whichis simply a site where you can
(15:38):
meet other virtual workers forcoffee, for example, um, and,
and it's available all the timeand you can.
You can match up on differentinterests.
There's other things like that,you know, people can lean into
when they need to.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (15:52):
They just need to know about it yeah, it's
, it's so true, and I think, uh,it's been very, I mean, you've
been supportive and, like yousaid, when you reach out to
other people, when I firststarted to reach out, in fact,
the remote work life podcastitself started because I was
having that lack of learning orthat lack of, you know,
interaction.
So I started to reach out topeople and they started to give
(16:14):
me information and then Istarted to share that
information and, before you knowit, the podcast is born and I'm
talking to you and it just Ithink the more conversations
that you have is, the more theconversation kind of obviously,
the wider your network grows andyou feel better.
Actually, actually, when Ispoke to you that time when did
we speak?
Was it last week?
(16:35):
Well, what spoke to you?
I felt better after theconversation because I think,
like you said, sometimes youtend to beat yourself up about
certain things or you thinkyou're not doing something right
or you think you're the onlyperson doing that thing, but
when you start to speak to otherpeople, it kind of it's a bit
of a pressure release, almost.
So I was really appreciativefor that.
Rowena Henningan (16:53):
Uh, appreciate , you know my pleasure, but it's
interesting.
I mean, a lot of teachers goout of heart.
I'm a teacher and I stilllecture with the university.
You know, as you mentioned atthe start, and my other work
that I might do, butfundamentally I'm a teacher and
people listening who relate tothat whether you're teaching
your kids or you have a hobbythat you teach something.
(17:15):
The lot of teachers, I'm sure,listening because we we teach
things that we're not maybeaware of it.
But one of the beauties of beingteaching is that you learn
about something in another wayyourself.
When you, when you share withsomeone and and, for example,
with the self-care template wewere talking through your
possible improvements in yourself-care as a remote worker,
(17:38):
alex, like I'm learning as well,I'm reminding myself and it's
one of the reasons I love doingthe work on self-leadership for
remote workers and fororganizations, because it
reminds me for remote workersand for organisation, because it
reminds me.
It makes me, when I look at mycalendar, go, yeah, I need to
put another break in there orI'm going to go for an extra
walk, and it's almost likepreaching back myself.
(18:00):
So it's kind of selfish in away.
But I think in general, whenwe're knowledge workers on
computers and that's the mainprofile of everyone listening,
I'm sure, to counteract thescreen time, to counteract the
potential oversaturation ondigital devices and screens, we
need that quality humanconnection.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (18:21):
We need to share and we need to to explain
honestly to people that youknow about what we find helps us
and that we're kind of leadinginto the the whole idea of um
wellness, and I'm still myselfunderstanding what's best for me
, physically, mentally, when itcomes to wellness, rowing and
(18:45):
what.
What is your?
How do you defy wellness, andyou know what kind of things
does it encompass, then, becausethat's you mentioned part of it
.
What does it encompass for aremote worker?
Rowena Henningan (18:54):
and so I'm personally, for me, so my
understanding of wellness isbeing at peace with my whole
self, with my, the holistic me.
So it's not just uh, I get alittle bit esoteric it's not
just the physical body, themental, the brain, the
intelligence, uh, you know, it'salso the spiritual, the soul,
the whole lot.
For me that's, you know, quitehonest for you.
(19:15):
That's the way I see my life.
So and I think people arestruggling with that even just
we think your intuition, andwhen you're just not sure, if
something feels a little bit,you know I'm not too good and I
don't know why, which many of usoften feel, and that's what I
kind of mean by that intuitionor soul or that part of you.
And for me it's been a piece, inthe main, being okay in all
(19:38):
those parts, right, and when Icheck in with myself I'm sort of
like, and it's not going to beperfect, but it's asking myself
in a little bit of self-talk howam I?
Most days I try and do itintentionally.
How am I physically?
Oh, I've got a bit of a stiffback, so I'm going to stand at
my standing desk today.
How am I mentally?
(20:00):
I think I'm okay, but actuallyI've got a busy day, so I must
make sure that I go out forlunch or I make sure I speak,
have a proper conversation withmy husband without my daughter
around, and I'm parentslistening.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (20:15):
I know what you mean by that.
Rowena Henningan (20:15):
Yeah, and and then just my gutter, my
spiritual side.
How is that does that feel?
Feel okay.
And that part for me is to dowith my values and to do with me
living honestly, truthfully,authentically, all that stuff
and that's important part.
And living to my why I choseremote work and why I chose to
(20:37):
set up, you know, a companywhere I could work from anywhere
, work that I could work fromanywhere.
So for me, that's my bigpicture on wellness.
But, alex, yours could bereally different, different.
I've spoken to people where it'sall about their physical right
yeah I've spoken to people whereacademics, where it's all about
their sort of intelligence,mental, okay.
(20:58):
So it's personal, it's verypersonal.
We can't have a general idea ofit.
What I'm more interested in isasking people to look at that
for themselves got you, and isthat I mean the wellness?
Alex Wilson-Campbell (21:13):
you mentioned also as well when we
were talking, uh, previously,the holistic individual worker,
and that is that part of that.
Then could you describe whatyou mean by the?
Rowena Henningan (21:24):
holistic is so holistic worker.
Holistic is a word that youmight hear used in medicine and
what it means is that if you goto the gp and use a sore throat,
they'll ask you about the sorethroat, for example.
Right, if you go to a holisticpractitioner, normally they're
in the alternative space.
They'll ask how you aregenerally, they'll talk about
your mood, they'll ask questionsabout nutrition.
(21:45):
They look at the big, theholistic, because they they
think that that one symptom isonly one part of the, the
solution.
Right, and that I mean that'swhere the term, my term,
holistic work becomes and that'swhat we bring, actually
completely as remote workers,normally in the normal model
where you're working separatelyfrom that physical connection to
(22:08):
a company or to colleagues.
Yes, you might be in aco-working, yes, you might be
sharing a space, but you'remaybe on your own from that
perspective.
So how are you?
Holistically?
Because, especially if you'reonly working from home, we need
to care about work-life balance,we need to care about fatigue,
we need to care about screentime Because otherwise, because
(22:30):
you're home and your lives aretogether, out, fatigue.
We need to care about screentime because otherwise they your
whole, because your home andyour life are together, the
whole holistic person is goingto be affected, as that worker
in the home.
So that that's what Iunderstand by and that's why I
ask I often.
I often hope that people willsee the bigger picture now.
The other thing to add to thatis what I've noticed, since
(22:51):
we've all gone fully emergencyremote, is we are all being much
more open in these virtualworlds.
We're sharing what we think,we're sharing our home lives.
In general, you're getting aview into someone's kitchen,
sitting room, bedroom, chaos,whatever it may be.
So that is the full personreally, isn't it?
(23:11):
It is much.
It might not be everything.
I'm not saying that we don'thave to have a privacy or a
private part, but I thinkthrough this what's happening to
us as a world, as a, you know,a global population of workers.
That's what's happened.
The holistic person has beenbrought to work and a lot of
company missions would say bringyour whole self to work.
(23:32):
And it's idealistic to a point,but I still think that it's
nice because it's human centered.
It's the full worker and thefull person that comes to work,
and for me, that's why I use itin in in some of my teaching and
some of my in a lot of my work,because I believe we have to
care about the whole person.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (23:52):
Yeah, I think we do, and you're right.
I mean lots of the experts,ceos from remote businesses I've
spoken to.
They've all mentioned similarsorts of words to you being
human-centred, bringing yourselfyour whole self to work, being
truthful as well, not truthfulto the point that you're bearing
all.
But you, you know, you have tobe truthful in the sense that,
(24:15):
or at least you know, build thattrust between each other.
And how can you do that?
That's by, obviously, the wayyou work, but also, um, letting
them have an understanding, forexample, of your home life, so
that it can be more, you know,adapt to how you are.
So, yeah, I think this, this,the situation that we're in,
will probably, actually, willprobably begin to separate the
(24:36):
lenders who are, you know, humancentered, from those who are,
who are not, you know, becauseyou have to have that empathy,
don't you as well, to exactlyunderstand different people's
salarios and adapt.
Rowena Henningan (24:50):
Exactly, and it's exactly what I try to do,
even through my conversation,with sharing that personal, how
remote working as an ethos, wayof life is so personal to me
because it is Because of my lifeexperience with my daughter and
I had no choice during thosetwo years but to bring the real
(25:12):
me to the situation, becausethat was what I was faced with
and a lot of people.
There's a lot more authenticity, people being real coming
through.
But I really like that pointand I really want to want to
highlight what you said, becauseI've heard it too from c-suite,
I've heard it coming from thatthat human center that more and
(25:36):
I hope that's the case, alex,because leaders who can share a
bit more vulnerably and openly,it can make all the difference
it really really can in terms ofteam dynamics yeah, totally
agree, totally agree.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (25:52):
And talking about dynamics of a team
, I think, was it you told me inthat conversation as well, when
it comes to supporting eachother as well, it's so much more
if you're working in a remoteteam or if you have, if you have
a distributed team or workwithin distributed team, you
have to have that support ofeach other anyway.
(26:14):
You have to understand eachother, work together and what
I've seen it normally happensquite naturally within, again,
within remote teams, that thatsupport network and building
that support network um up, um.
But if you don't, for me, when,again, when I first started out
I probably didn't have thatnetwork, that I should have had
(26:35):
that built up over time and Iwas again quite deliberate about
, about building it up.
So that, honestly for me, andwhat prompted that post on
linkedin, the post I linked?
I posted a post on linkedinabout burnout just the other day
and quite a few people haveactually um, um she's seen that
post now.
But I became burnt out because,and the signs for me was, you
(26:59):
know, I was feeling tired, I was, you know, my, my rate of work
wasn't what it was, I wasn'tproductive, as you might say.
I was probably isolating myselfdeliberately as well.
Those were some of the giveawaysigns for me, rowena.
I mean, I know there aren'ttypical giveaway signs, but are
there any sort of signs that yousee generally that are signs of
(27:20):
um, signs of burnout, or thatyou're not going as well as you
should be going?
Rowena Henningan (27:25):
so it's interesting because we can only
see.
We need to notice those signsfrom a baseline or a foundation.
So, say, alex is normally quitechatty, or there's this this
and this that we know aboutworking with alex in a team,
then obviously if there's anychange in that, that would be a
sign and a good colleague or agood manager would reach out and
(27:48):
say, oh, you haven't had yourvideo on on calls, you know, or
whatever, and sort of tweak thatout okay.
So that would be what I wouldadvise people to look at those
little changes in behaviour,okay.
But also, be brave, have thosehonest conversations in your
(28:09):
direct network of a team.
Why not do what you know?
So you've told me honestlythere, alex.
Alex, thanks for sharing that.
I'm known to keep an eye out inthe future.
It's good to know that when youexperienced that before, these
are the things that happened.
Is there anything else that youthink I should know so that I
can support you about?
If you're feeling a little bitstressed or older working, you
(28:34):
share with me, you ask me back.
I mean, so this, some of thisdoes happen, naturally, but part
of the work I do is workingwith teams to help them have
those conversations and practicethrough a type of role play.
Because you've been aroundsince 2009, you're probably
would know, maybe, how to dothat, how to share, how to, but
(28:57):
other people may not or it maynot be something they're
comfortable with.
So, to summarize those twopoints look for a change in
behavior and then maybe check in, okay and ask and then also,
why wait for being reactive?
Be proactive, kick off aconversation with the people
that are in your team.
Is there anything you know Ineed to know?
(29:20):
Are you not the?
Hey, how are you?
Hey, I'm okay.
No, tell me, are you really it?
How could you be?
Okay, you're homeschooling.
We're in a pandemic oh yeah etc.
And and just tell me what's thethree crap things today you know
of whatever, and people willanswer you believe it right and
you'll start that open dialogue.
But if you have that kind ofopen conversation it can lead
(29:43):
into a good supportive colleagueor a good leader or whatever
going.
And how can we support eachother?
What could I do for you?
What are the signs, alex?
If there are those signs, howcan I help you?
And just chat it through?
It's not really obvious, but itdoes have to be intentional and
hopefully people listening thatwill resonate with them as a
(30:04):
way of approaching thatconversation and you mentioned
another um where that I'mhearing quite often and reviews
myself quite often is, and thatis intent.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (30:14):
It's important to have intent where
your self-care is concerned.
And again I, you know, goingback to myself and our initial
conversation, I was talking toyou about how my self-care is
lacking at the moment, or waslacking, and I didn't really
have or stick to any sort ofplan or any sort of activities.
(30:39):
And we started to talk abouthaving a self-care plan and
you've sent a self-care plan.
In fact, what I'll do isobviously I'll leave a link to
that plan in the show notes.
So have a look in the shownotes, because I think it's
really started to help me to tovisualize how my day is going to
be in this scenario as it isnow, because I had a plan before
.
But that plan is kind of a bitdifferent now to what it was
(31:01):
before giving my children a homeand I'm homeschooling as well,
so that having a plan is soimportant, isn't it?
Isn't it, rowena, and you knowwhat?
Rowena Henningan (31:11):
yeah, tell us about that well, yeah, I've
developed, or just my frameworkfor looking at self-care and
it's from my own experience ishaving those chunks of self-care
, that 30, 40 minutes that youdo your Pilates class or yoga
class, if it's online, your runyour gym, whatever you can
manage and I know we have to.
You know, be creative, mayberestriction.
(31:32):
And often I would ask people,and they'd have it in in
mentoring sessions and they'dhave one or two answers and then
I'd think, well, what shortactivities do you do?
And they're like what do youmean?
Okay, or a lot of parents wouldsay to me I don't have time for
portabellum, I don't have anytime for self-care, and and and.
So I would, I would help themto see that we all have a minute
(31:56):
.
Most of us are living in thefirst world.
We do have a minute if we wantto make it, and we we might need
to be creative, we might needto plan it, but it's there and
you just need to tap into it.
But I'm really glad you used thewords visualization, because
that's my interest in psychologyand the therapy is why, when I
(32:17):
work through this self-care formyself and with you, when we
talk through these chunks, theselittle activities, maybe some
new activities to explore.
I always try and visualizemyself doing it and I did it
with you when we were talkingabout the drumming, so I hope we
can use that example.
Yes, so I said to you, if youwere going to do your little bit
of drumming, you probably think, well, if I'm going to do my
(32:38):
drumming with my son, I need tohave it all set up and get ready
.
And I said, well, what aboutcoming up with like a biscuit
tin or something or box that youcould drum on?
And you went, wow, that's.
And I said exactly, that's afive to ten minute fun way of
bringing in one little snapshotof drumming into the day so it
(33:01):
was a great idea.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (33:02):
It is a great idea because I think, as I
said to you when we spoke aboutit, when I first started
playing the drums myself, thatwas how it all started.
It started with me banging onmy lap, banging my knife and
fork on the dining room tableand annoying the hell out of my
mum, so it was such a great ideait's almost a bad idea, you
(33:27):
know so if we were doing moresessions, I would actually tap
into that.
Rowena Henningan (33:29):
That was a really positive memory for you,
a real, you know, brings up yoursenses, remembering, tapping
really good, really good youcould share that with your son.
But then you can pictureyourself doing the old box from
a christmas present or thebiscuit tin and and just maybe
challenging him into let's havea little go together.
And it's about that frequencyof of the activity because
(33:52):
that's because if we try and dothe big chunk only we might fail
.
So if we've the five, tenminutes I and suggestion or or
activity that's shorter, that wecan pull on when we have a
really busy day, you can say toyourself I have a, I have 10
minutes between meetings, I'mgoing to go out and do that, tap
, tap, tap, etc.
(34:13):
And that's that's where theplanning is still really
important.
With self-care, I have to saythe most success I've seen with
clients bringing in a good,healthy self-care is where they
have built it into calendars andthey have looked to that
profile and extended it out.
But it's it's.
You know, I want to encouragepeople because every little bit
(34:36):
helps and sometimes you'realready maybe listening to a
piece of music on a break orperhaps you're picking up a
magazine and reading a couple ofarticles.
So what also helps us, alex, isto say that intention at the
start of doing that.
I am taking a break from worknow and I'm going to read those
(34:57):
three stories in my favouritemagazine.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (35:00):
Yeah, there's so much there that I
could talk about, and I think,having somebody to, having
somebody like Rowena to speakI'm so lucky that I've, you know
, found Rowena, um, and I'mlucky as well to have other
people within my network.
But that did that didn't comeabout by chance.
That came about by, you know,conversations, but all the
(35:21):
things that are in your mind andagain, with the conversations
that you and I had about thedrumming, that was something
that was the back of my mind,which, through a conversation
with you, it pulled it out tothe front.
So I was thinking to myselfbecause previously I was
thinking to myself how am Igoing to teach my son to play
the drums and how can I buildthat into sort of like my
routine?
And I was thinking about thecomplicated things like the
(35:43):
practice pad and the, thedrumsticks and the, the
drumsticks and the stand andsetting it up and all this sort
of thing.
But Rowena was able to justsimplify it for me.
You know it was just.
It made things so much easier,and so it's important to have
the, the people who can help youwith it, like Rowena.
But also, I think anotherimportant aspect really is
having somebody to beaccountable to for it, so that
(36:05):
you can actually maintain itright thank you.
Rowena Henningan (36:08):
Exactly, and all the psychology we know about
making commitments, changingideas and suggestions into real
behavior and habits, exactlythat, and that's why it does
help to work with someone andand to link it back to
productivity and overalleffectiveness and that whole
holistic remote worker.
I want to highlight somethingwe spoke about as well.
(36:30):
Alex, you know I'm using a bitof minimum coaching here, but
you you know that taking that 10minute break and going away and
connecting with your hands onthe drum and listening to the
sound you're playing out andprogressing along that little
beat, that that will help you bea better remote worker when you
come back to the machine yeahbecause and for anyone who wants
(36:54):
, anyone who's feeling a bitskeptical just even think of
what we've lost in commute timesocial interact from being in an
office, the thing like if youcould get a little image here of
all that commute time peoplegrabbing you for a coffee, you
going down to the shops, youpopping out for your lunch.
Over here we're in the home onlyso.
(37:17):
So I think there's such gapsthere and that's why we have to
be.
That's the reason for beingmore intentional.
Movement has gone down withhomework only.
We know that.
I mean productivity has beenmaintained.
But part of being that holisticremote worker is also saying I
need a break.
It will make me better, if youneed to say that to yourself.
(37:39):
When I come back, I will bemore productive, I will be more
alert and uh yeah, it's been apleasure to work through with
you, but I have to say that thedrums you gave me a really gem
of a one, alex, because drumsare so tactile and assassin yeah
it's a really lovely example no, it's good and it's like I said
it's.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (37:59):
It's simplified things for me, and
it's been like I said I'm verylucky to have had you come um
into into my world and, at theright moment in time as well, to
kind of show me that.
So that's part of my part andparcel of my routine, though,
but I really want to thank you.
I mean, I've got so many morequestions that I'd like to ask
you um, but I know we're comingtowards the end of time now, so
(38:22):
I just wanted to thank you foryour time.
Hi, it's Alex Geller from the Remote Work
Life Podcast.
I hope you're well, whereveryou may be in the world.
I have yet another specialguest today with me.
I have Rowena Hennigan, andRowena is a remote work skills
expert.
She's got unique experience ofdesigning and delivering
university accredited courses inthat subject.
(00:21):
She's passionate aboutwell-being in remote work, which
is what we all need, especiallyin organizations.
It's obviously vital and sheviews that as vital in effective
operations, and I couldn'tagree more.
She is the employee programsremote expert for two large
insurance companies.
Now Rowena works 100% remotefrom Spain hard'd love to be
(00:44):
there right now and she'sfounded two fully remote
companies herself.
She's founded Row Remote andRise, which is R-I-S-E in
capital letters.
So Rise, which is all aboutemotional intelligence, and
she's, of course, a seasoneddigital nomad.
Rowena, I just want to saythank you so much for taking the
(01:07):
time to join us today andyou're very welcome thanks, alex
, and thanks for the fabulousintroduction.
Rowena Henningan (01:14):
It's lovely to join you today no, it's
wonderful.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (01:17):
It's that first conversation we had a
couple of weeks ago because Imet rowena.
We were met via LinkedIn, Ibelieve it was.
I met via referral.
Somebody recommended you to theshow and I thought let me have
a look.
So I looked and I'd heard ofyou before and you're somebody
who is well known in the worldof remote work and very much a
(01:40):
pioneer, I would have said,within the world of remote work.
So what I really want to knowis how did you come to be the
remote work expert that you aretoday?
Rowena Henningan (01:53):
I guess it started back in 2007.
I was working with atelecommunications company in
Ireland, in the west of Ireland,who are now known as Avaya, but
back then, alex, they werecalled Nel and I was part of a
global team.
We were allowed you know, wewere enabled to work remotely in
the early days of things likeMicrosoft Communicator and early
(02:13):
communication tools, and Iworked a lot between the UK and
Ireland and I started workingand set on a virtual team then
and it really opened my mind toit.
And around that time as well, Idid some traveling and I began
to realize that I could workvirtually and it wasn't complete
remote work as we know it nowbecause it was in its early
(02:34):
stages, but that was my firsttaster.
And then fast forward on toaround 2012, I was pregnant with
my daughter and living inDublin and, yeah, I started to
work a little bit from home on acouple of the the contracts I
had at the time and that youknow, with you have children.
(02:55):
When you have kids or whenyou're moving into family life,
remote work is really flexible,it really supports you and it
was something that I thought.
This is great.
I'm leaning on this skill, thisway of life again.
I'm really interested in it.
It's part of my passion, and asI was working through those in
a kind of hybrid model, as wecall it now, with two contracts,
(03:17):
I began to notice some of theskills you need to work remotely
.
I my background is in marketing, communications and psychology,
and I was really interested inhow we communicated virtually,
how we made our intentions clear, how we were self-leaders,
self-managers, as individualremote workers.
(03:38):
And then a big life changehappened for me and it's a big
part of my story my daughter,around the age of one, developed
quite bad asthma chronic asthmain fact.
So those first uh, couple ofyears of her early life were
very stressful, to the pointwhere myself and my husband
moved to Spain because we wereseeking a drier climate for her
(04:01):
and and and that is where Isuddenly really, really it was
like the life lesson to go.
Remote work has enabled me.
First of all, enabled me tokeep my career going with a very
sick child and I can flash backto 2014 and 15 surviving on
very such low levels of sleepfor nearly three years in total,
(04:22):
but managing to work a littlebit flexibly with my in the two
contracts I had then, and thenbeing able to change my whole
life and move to Spain with myfamily and enable my daughter's
health because of being using,taking advantage of appreciating
the remote work way of life.
(04:43):
And in my introduction you saidI'm a digital nomad.
Now I have a confession I'm awannabe digital nomad.
It's a bit different, difficultwith it with a young child, but
I still love to travel.
I go to Bali.
I work from there because Ihave family there.
I've been to France because Ihave family there and work from
there when I go back to Ireland,it's the same.
(05:04):
So it's a way of life for meand I am really, really
appreciative and grateful toremote work as a way of life and
a way of thinking and a way ofworking, because it really kept
me sane when I needed it andkept me working, and that's why
I'm so passionate about it.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (05:23):
And you said Ashley actually counted
about two or three times whichyou said it's a way of life and
it's um, couldn't agree more.
And it's, it's.
It's a way of life that and bythe from the sounds of what
you've just said, it's, it'senabled you.
It's again, it's an enabler.
It enables you to build thelife that you want and that you
need.
It's helped you to to move outto, to spain, to help your
(05:45):
daughter, to be able to applyyour expertise wherever you may
be in the world, at the samelevel that you would do, or
probably even better than youwould do, if you were in an
office and you built a greatcareer and now you're advising
people on, on um, on remote work, and exactly exactly you, I
(06:05):
mean, you mentioned traveling.
I mean, and in fact, maybe whatwe should say at the top of the
show as well, is that a bit of adisclaimer in the sense that
we're certainly not in a kind ofa normal situation as things
stand at the moment?
This by no means and I keepsaying this because lots of
people are still conflating thetwo but, um, this is us being
(06:26):
forced to work from home.
This is not remote work, sothere are constraints, as Rowena
was saying about her ability totravel and all those other
sorts of things.
But no, I mean, it sounds likeyou've been able, you are have
been able to, um, build a greatlife for yourself.
Uh, you've.
You've got your clients now aswell, across the world.
Where are your clientsdistributed?
Rowena Henningan (06:47):
So I have clients in Europe.
I have some international workas well with the States.
I mean, I choose, I'm asolopreneur and I have the other
company you mentioned, RiseEmotional Intelligence, which is
looking at services forcorporates in emotional
intelligence, specifically forremote teams, virtual teams, and
(07:07):
that's with co-founder SandraThompson out of the UK, who
we've never met.
We founded the company in July.
We've never met.
My own consultancy service andcompany is mostly European
because I choose it that waybecause of time zone.
So I want to make that clear aswell.
I do have some further off work, but that's also the joy.
(07:30):
I mean, time zones can be achallenge and as well as being,
you know, an advocate for remotework it's my own flavor of
remote work.
I say to myself that I don'twant to be on calls generally at
11 o'clock at night and becauseof the nature of my work
consulting and training I wouldneed to do that if I was working
a lot with the safe.
So for now I'm choosing thatEuropean zone which is more time
(07:52):
zone, friendly with the family.
But that's all part of thevalues that go with this way of
life, to what you said, and thentaking that way of life and
that purpose that it can bringto you, because your priorities
are often different.
Some of my priorities when mydaughter was sick were forced on
me.
I didn't have the choice.
(08:12):
I had to work in the couple ofhours after I'd had it, you know
, in between naps or whateverWhereas now I look at life
differently and I look at thosevalues and that purpose from
that experience.
And what's interesting andthanks for reminding, because we
can never forget is we areliving through such an
exceptional, extraordinary time.
(08:33):
What many people are doing andeven you know I did it for five
months solid it's not trueremote work.
If you're confined in your home, with emergency home working,
it's not the same and you arerestricted, you have stress, you
have distractions, you havecompeting responsibilities, and
what's interesting for me is ashard as this last year has been
(08:57):
for everyone in different ways.
It actually reminded me ofthose values.
You reminded me of those values.
It actually brought back to methe importance of choosing
flexible work to prioritize yourwork-life balance and
well-being as an individual, andand that that that's why I'm so
passionate as well aboutindividual remote workers being
(09:17):
aware of that for themselves andknowing that they can choose
that and that's another wordyou've used, uh, quite often
initially, something that'sapplied to not just you but many
others in your situation choice, choosing, having the ability
to choose, but at the same timeit doesn't detract from the.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (09:35):
You know, the work and the all that kind
of thing.
Having choices is so importantand you've been able to, to
build that in, but, of course,it's been by no means easy going
, I'm sure, and this kind of umway of work, as is, you know,
when you're first starting out,if you don't have, even if
(09:55):
you're quite experienced, anyway, it can be, it can have its
demands, can't it?
Um, what sort of challenges didyou face when you were sort of
starting out?
And I mean, yeah, how did youovercome those challenges?
Rowena Henningan (10:09):
There is definitely a learning curve, and
there can be a learning curveparticularly as a sort of in
that freelance solopreneur modelwhere you're dealing with
different companies all the time.
So I'll give you an example Atone point in june, I was using
14 different video conferencingtools for a large presentation
wow, okay of different ilks andsome of them I don't name names
(10:35):
because I don't want to get introuble I was like, if they
don't really want that to happen, I would get back to the link
and having to to, I mean, Iobviously I'm 20 odd years in my
career, so, like us joking atthe start, alex, when some piece
of technology doesn't work,it's all about experience.
But there was a steep learningcurve when I started out remote
(10:57):
and established my company, rowRemote in 2017.
Learning the tool,understanding more about
asynchronous communications, thelevels of remote work, applying
them to myself, then lookingaround back then and trying to
learn more about GitHub, gitlabI mean Andy Treba that you had
on from Crossover would besomeone that I have followed and
(11:19):
admired and I listened to thepodcast great podcast episode
with him and so much to learnabout how he's taken, for
example, and other companies andother leaders in the space
about how they were doing thingsin remote.
So I had that challenge oflearning and then this year
(11:39):
that's been acceleratedcompletely, been accelerated
completely.
So that challenge of keeping upto date and understanding what
is out there in terms of remotework and the different maturity
stages and models but thenapplying it to your own personal
or company or team situation.
Obviously that's somethingthat's ongoing and you're always
learning and it's almost likeyou have to almost remind
(12:03):
yourself that it's constantlyevolving.
But the good news for listenersis and I'm sure you would agree
that the wealth and quality ofinformation now is astounding in
these recent months and peoplecan join in and learn so much
quicker than someone, say, whowas trying to get into remote
(12:24):
work five or 10 years ago.
There's a lot more easy,accessible information in the
community to build up theYouTube videos, those how-to
documents, all of that.
So that was one of thechallenges.
The other challenge as well andit's a known challenge within
the whole area of remote work isthat potential to overwork,
(12:47):
which could lead into burnout.
So I'm mostly sitting in my I'min my co-working space today I
do have my husband he's in anoffice near me, but I'm on my
own and in a physical, in-personsense most days.
So I have to be my own boss interms of hours, in terms of
routine, and that's somethingthat can also be a challenge,
(13:08):
and it's one of the areas I'mreally interested in as a remote
worker, because you can feelthat you are challenged or may
have some difficulties in howyou see that working day and
those working hours.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (13:23):
You know I was as you were talking.
There.
I'm nodding away because I'mthinking to myself.
That's something I experiencedas well.
That happened to me too.
It's kind of it's amazing whenyou you start to talk to other
people, especially other peoplelike you, with your expertise
and the fact you've workedremotely and you've been to,
when you actually, when I wasactually starting out, my
learning went down.
(13:44):
It just went down the pan backin 2009 because, like, like you
say, you have to be moredeliberate about um searching
out for searching out theinformation, understanding what
current and you know there'slots of information, he said,
and there's sometimes quite alot to actually trawl through on
the internet but, yeah, I could, I could really, uh, understand
that and the overwork as well.
That's something probably Istill do, um, and I think when
(14:07):
we last spoke, I admitted tothat, didn't I?
Rowena Henningan (14:09):
when I was but we're all human and I mean I do
it some days as well, of coursewe're all human, but it's that,
it's having converse, openconversations like this, because
you maybe don't have that in.
I mean, I've worked in in inreal teams and I'm sure you did
as well before, in real officespaces where someone might turn
(14:31):
around and go oh, you haven'thad your lunch, alex.
Yeah, let's go for lunch.
Yeah, sitting near you.
We don't have that, and so howdo we put in a framework or a
support infrastructure around uswhere we build our intention or
our deliberate intention tomake sure we take our breaks, to
make sure that we keep thatbalance?
(14:53):
As I said, it won't be perfectevery day, so don't beat
yourself up about it.
But in the main.
And then, what can we do?
Like what you and I've beendoing just have a chat, compare
notes, what works for you, shareopenly and then reach out into
the virtual world, becausethat's what I'm sure you'll know
from the podcast as well thecommunity is so supportive and
you can reach out to people.
(15:15):
And if there is somethingthat's bugging you about your
hours, about your maybe stresslevels, whatever it may be,
about feeling a little bitsocially isolated.
There's a lot of support out inthe remote work world.
In relation to that, andactually in the show notes,
there's a fabulous site calledmeet cafecito.
I'm using my spanish, um whichis simply a site where you can
(15:38):
meet other virtual workers forcoffee, for example, um, and,
and it's available all the timeand you can.
You can match up on differentinterests.
There's other things like that,you know, people can lean into
when they need to.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (15:52):
They just need to know about it yeah, it's
, it's so true, and I think, uh,it's been very, I mean, you've
been supportive and, like yousaid, when you reach out to
other people, when I firststarted to reach out, in fact,
the remote work life podcastitself started because I was
having that lack of learning orthat lack of, you know,
interaction.
So I started to reach out topeople and they started to give
(16:14):
me information and then Istarted to share that
information and, before you knowit, the podcast is born and I'm
talking to you and it just Ithink the more conversations
that you have is, the more theconversation kind of obviously,
the wider your network grows andyou feel better.
Actually, actually, when Ispoke to you that time when did
we speak?
Was it last week?
(16:35):
Well, what spoke to you?
I felt better after theconversation because I think,
like you said, sometimes youtend to beat yourself up about
certain things or you thinkyou're not doing something right
or you think you're the onlyperson doing that thing, but
when you start to speak to otherpeople, it kind of it's a bit
of a pressure release, almost.
So I was really appreciativefor that.
Rowena Henningan (16:53):
Uh, appreciate , you know my pleasure, but it's
interesting.
I mean, a lot of teachers goout of heart.
I'm a teacher and I stilllecture with the university.
You know, as you mentioned atthe start, and my other work
that I might do, butfundamentally I'm a teacher and
people listening who relate tothat whether you're teaching
your kids or you have a hobbythat you teach something.
(17:15):
The lot of teachers, I'm sure,listening because we we teach
things that we're not maybeaware of it.
But one of the beauties of beingteaching is that you learn
about something in another wayyourself.
When you, when you share withsomeone and and, for example,
with the self-care template wewere talking through your
possible improvements in yourself-care as a remote worker,
(17:38):
alex, like I'm learning as well,I'm reminding myself and it's
one of the reasons I love doingthe work on self-leadership for
remote workers and fororganizations, because it
reminds me for remote workersand for organisation, because it
reminds me.
It makes me, when I look at mycalendar, go, yeah, I need to
put another break in there orI'm going to go for an extra
walk, and it's almost likepreaching back myself.
(18:00):
So it's kind of selfish in away.
But I think in general, whenwe're knowledge workers on
computers and that's the mainprofile of everyone listening,
I'm sure, to counteract thescreen time, to counteract the
potential oversaturation ondigital devices and screens, we
need that quality humanconnection.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (18:21):
We need to share and we need to to explain
honestly to people that youknow about what we find helps us
and that we're kind of leadinginto the the whole idea of um
wellness, and I'm still myselfunderstanding what's best for me
, physically, mentally, when itcomes to wellness, rowing and
(18:45):
what.
What is your?
How do you defy wellness, andyou know what kind of things
does it encompass, then, becausethat's you mentioned part of it
.
What does it encompass for aremote worker?
Rowena Henningan (18:54):
and so I'm personally, for me, so my
understanding of wellness isbeing at peace with my whole
self, with my, the holistic me.
So it's not just uh, I get alittle bit esoteric it's not
just the physical body, themental, the brain, the
intelligence, uh, you know, it'salso the spiritual, the soul,
the whole lot.
For me that's, you know, quitehonest for you.
(19:15):
That's the way I see my life.
So and I think people arestruggling with that even just
we think your intuition, andwhen you're just not sure, if
something feels a little bit,you know I'm not too good and I
don't know why, which many of usoften feel, and that's what I
kind of mean by that intuitionor soul or that part of you.
And for me it's been a piece, inthe main, being okay in all
(19:38):
those parts, right, and when Icheck in with myself I'm sort of
like, and it's not going to beperfect, but it's asking myself
in a little bit of self-talk howam I?
Most days I try and do itintentionally.
How am I physically?
Oh, I've got a bit of a stiffback, so I'm going to stand at
my standing desk today.
How am I mentally?
(20:00):
I think I'm okay, but actuallyI've got a busy day, so I must
make sure that I go out forlunch or I make sure I speak,
have a proper conversation withmy husband without my daughter
around, and I'm parentslistening.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (20:15):
I know what you mean by that.
Rowena Henningan (20:15):
Yeah, and and then just my gutter, my
spiritual side.
How is that does that feel?
Feel okay.
And that part for me is to dowith my values and to do with me
living honestly, truthfully,authentically, all that stuff
and that's important part.
And living to my why I choseremote work and why I chose to
(20:37):
set up, you know, a companywhere I could work from anywhere
, work that I could work fromanywhere.
So for me, that's my bigpicture on wellness.
But, alex, yours could bereally different, different.
I've spoken to people where it'sall about their physical right
yeah I've spoken to people whereacademics, where it's all about
their sort of intelligence,mental, okay.
(20:58):
So it's personal, it's verypersonal.
We can't have a general idea ofit.
What I'm more interested in isasking people to look at that
for themselves got you, and isthat I mean the wellness?
Alex Wilson-Campbell (21:13):
you mentioned also as well when we
were talking, uh, previously,the holistic individual worker,
and that is that part of that.
Then could you describe whatyou mean by the?
Rowena Henningan (21:24):
holistic is so holistic worker.
Holistic is a word that youmight hear used in medicine and
what it means is that if you goto the gp and use a sore throat,
they'll ask you about the sorethroat, for example.
Right, if you go to a holisticpractitioner, normally they're
in the alternative space.
They'll ask how you aregenerally, they'll talk about
your mood, they'll ask questionsabout nutrition.
(21:45):
They look at the big, theholistic, because they they
think that that one symptom isonly one part of the, the
solution.
Right, and that I mean that'swhere the term, my term,
holistic work becomes and that'swhat we bring, actually
completely as remote workers,normally in the normal model
where you're working separatelyfrom that physical connection to
(22:08):
a company or to colleagues.
Yes, you might be in aco-working, yes, you might be
sharing a space, but you'remaybe on your own from that
perspective.
So how are you?
Holistically?
Because, especially if you'reonly working from home, we need
to care about work-life balance,we need to care about fatigue,
we need to care about screentime Because otherwise, because
(22:30):
you're home and your lives aretogether, out, fatigue.
We need to care about screentime because otherwise they your
whole, because your home andyour life are together, the
whole holistic person is goingto be affected, as that worker
in the home.
So that that's what Iunderstand by and that's why I
ask I often.
I often hope that people willsee the bigger picture now.
The other thing to add to thatis what I've noticed, since
(22:51):
we've all gone fully emergencyremote, is we are all being much
more open in these virtualworlds.
We're sharing what we think,we're sharing our home lives.
In general, you're getting aview into someone's kitchen,
sitting room, bedroom, chaos,whatever it may be.
So that is the full personreally, isn't it?
(23:11):
It is much.
It might not be everything.
I'm not saying that we don'thave to have a privacy or a
private part, but I thinkthrough this what's happening to
us as a world, as a, you know,a global population of workers.
That's what's happened.
The holistic person has beenbrought to work and a lot of
company missions would say bringyour whole self to work.
(23:32):
And it's idealistic to a point,but I still think that it's
nice because it's human centered.
It's the full worker and thefull person that comes to work,
and for me, that's why I use itin in in some of my teaching and
some of my in a lot of my work,because I believe we have to
care about the whole person.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (23:52):
Yeah, I think we do, and you're right.
I mean lots of the experts,ceos from remote businesses I've
spoken to.
They've all mentioned similarsorts of words to you being
human-centred, bringing yourselfyour whole self to work, being
truthful as well, not truthfulto the point that you're bearing
all.
But you, you know, you have tobe truthful in the sense that,
(24:15):
or at least you know, build thattrust between each other.
And how can you do that?
That's by, obviously, the wayyou work, but also, um, letting
them have an understanding, forexample, of your home life, so
that it can be more, you know,adapt to how you are.
So, yeah, I think this, this,the situation that we're in,
will probably, actually, willprobably begin to separate the
(24:36):
lenders who are, you know, humancentered, from those who are,
who are not, you know, becauseyou have to have that empathy,
don't you as well, to exactlyunderstand different people's
salarios and adapt.
Rowena Henningan (24:50):
Exactly, and it's exactly what I try to do,
even through my conversation,with sharing that personal, how
remote working as an ethos, wayof life is so personal to me
because it is Because of my lifeexperience with my daughter and
I had no choice during thosetwo years but to bring the real
(25:12):
me to the situation, becausethat was what I was faced with
and a lot of people.
There's a lot more authenticity, people being real coming
through.
But I really like that pointand I really want to want to
highlight what you said, becauseI've heard it too from c-suite,
I've heard it coming from thatthat human center that more and
(25:36):
I hope that's the case, alex,because leaders who can share a
bit more vulnerably and openly,it can make all the difference
it really really can in terms ofteam dynamics yeah, totally
agree, totally agree.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (25:52):
And talking about dynamics of a team
, I think, was it you told me inthat conversation as well, when
it comes to supporting eachother as well, it's so much more
if you're working in a remoteteam or if you have, if you have
a distributed team or workwithin distributed team, you
have to have that support ofeach other anyway.
(26:14):
You have to understand eachother, work together and what
I've seen it normally happensquite naturally within, again,
within remote teams, that thatsupport network and building
that support network um up, um.
But if you don't, for me, when,again, when I first started out
I probably didn't have thatnetwork, that I should have had
(26:35):
that built up over time and Iwas again quite deliberate about
, about building it up.
So that, honestly for me, andwhat prompted that post on
linkedin, the post I linked?
I posted a post on linkedinabout burnout just the other day
and quite a few people haveactually um, um she's seen that
post now.
But I became burnt out because,and the signs for me was, you
(26:59):
know, I was feeling tired, I was, you know, my, my rate of work
wasn't what it was, I wasn'tproductive, as you might say.
I was probably isolating myselfdeliberately as well.
Those were some of the giveawaysigns for me, rowena.
I mean, I know there aren'ttypical giveaway signs, but are
there any sort of signs that yousee generally that are signs of
(27:20):
um, signs of burnout, or thatyou're not going as well as you
should be going?
Rowena Henningan (27:25):
so it's interesting because we can only
see.
We need to notice those signsfrom a baseline or a foundation.
So, say, alex is normally quitechatty, or there's this this
and this that we know aboutworking with alex in a team,
then obviously if there's anychange in that, that would be a
sign and a good colleague or agood manager would reach out and
(27:48):
say, oh, you haven't had yourvideo on on calls, you know, or
whatever, and sort of tweak thatout okay.
So that would be what I wouldadvise people to look at those
little changes in behaviour,okay.
But also, be brave, have thosehonest conversations in your
(28:09):
direct network of a team.
Why not do what you know?
So you've told me honestlythere, alex.
Alex, thanks for sharing that.
I'm known to keep an eye out inthe future.
It's good to know that when youexperienced that before, these
are the things that happened.
Is there anything else that youthink I should know so that I
can support you about?
If you're feeling a little bitstressed or older working, you
(28:34):
share with me, you ask me back.
I mean, so this, some of thisdoes happen, naturally, but part
of the work I do is workingwith teams to help them have
those conversations and practicethrough a type of role play.
Because you've been aroundsince 2009, you're probably
would know, maybe, how to dothat, how to share, how to, but
(28:57):
other people may not or it maynot be something they're
comfortable with.
So, to summarize those twopoints look for a change in
behavior and then maybe check in, okay and ask and then also,
why wait for being reactive?
Be proactive, kick off aconversation with the people
that are in your team.
Is there anything you know Ineed to know?
(29:20):
Are you not the?
Hey, how are you?
Hey, I'm okay.
No, tell me, are you really it?
How could you be?
Okay, you're homeschooling.
We're in a pandemic oh yeah etc.
And and just tell me what's thethree crap things today you know
of whatever, and people willanswer you believe it right and
you'll start that open dialogue.
But if you have that kind ofopen conversation it can lead
(29:43):
into a good supportive colleagueor a good leader or whatever
going.
And how can we support eachother?
What could I do for you?
What are the signs, alex?
If there are those signs, howcan I help you?
And just chat it through?
It's not really obvious, but itdoes have to be intentional and
hopefully people listening thatwill resonate with them as a
(30:04):
way of approaching thatconversation and you mentioned
another um where that I'mhearing quite often and reviews
myself quite often is, and thatis intent.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (30:14):
It's important to have intent where
your self-care is concerned.
And again I, you know, goingback to myself and our initial
conversation, I was talking toyou about how my self-care is
lacking at the moment, or waslacking, and I didn't really
have or stick to any sort ofplan or any sort of activities.
(30:39):
And we started to talk abouthaving a self-care plan and
you've sent a self-care plan.
In fact, what I'll do isobviously I'll leave a link to
that plan in the show notes.
So have a look in the shownotes, because I think it's
really started to help me to tovisualize how my day is going to
be in this scenario as it isnow, because I had a plan before
.
But that plan is kind of a bitdifferent now to what it was
(31:01):
before giving my children a homeand I'm homeschooling as well,
so that having a plan is soimportant, isn't it?
Isn't it, rowena, and you knowwhat?
Rowena Henningan (31:11):
yeah, tell us about that well, yeah, I've
developed, or just my frameworkfor looking at self-care and
it's from my own experience ishaving those chunks of self-care
, that 30, 40 minutes that youdo your Pilates class or yoga
class, if it's online, your runyour gym, whatever you can
manage and I know we have to.
You know, be creative, mayberestriction.
(31:32):
And often I would ask people,and they'd have it in in
mentoring sessions and they'dhave one or two answers and then
I'd think, well, what shortactivities do you do?
And they're like what do youmean?
Okay, or a lot of parents wouldsay to me I don't have time for
portabellum, I don't have anytime for self-care, and and and.
So I would, I would help themto see that we all have a minute
(31:56):
.
Most of us are living in thefirst world.
We do have a minute if we wantto make it, and we we might need
to be creative, we might needto plan it, but it's there and
you just need to tap into it.
But I'm really glad you used thewords visualization, because
that's my interest in psychologyand the therapy is why, when I
(32:17):
work through this self-care formyself and with you, when we
talk through these chunks, theselittle activities, maybe some
new activities to explore.
I always try and visualizemyself doing it and I did it
with you when we were talkingabout the drumming, so I hope we
can use that example.
Yes, so I said to you, if youwere going to do your little bit
of drumming, you probably think, well, if I'm going to do my
(32:38):
drumming with my son, I need tohave it all set up and get ready
.
And I said, well, what aboutcoming up with like a biscuit
tin or something or box that youcould drum on?
And you went, wow, that's.
And I said exactly, that's afive to ten minute fun way of
bringing in one little snapshotof drumming into the day so it
(33:01):
was a great idea.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (33:02):
It is a great idea because I think, as I
said to you when we spoke aboutit, when I first started
playing the drums myself, thatwas how it all started.
It started with me banging onmy lap, banging my knife and
fork on the dining room tableand annoying the hell out of my
mum, so it was such a great ideait's almost a bad idea, you
(33:27):
know so if we were doing moresessions, I would actually tap
into that.
Rowena Henningan (33:29):
That was a really positive memory for you,
a real, you know, brings up yoursenses, remembering, tapping
really good, really good youcould share that with your son.
But then you can pictureyourself doing the old box from
a christmas present or thebiscuit tin and and just maybe
challenging him into let's havea little go together.
And it's about that frequencyof of the activity because
(33:52):
that's because if we try and dothe big chunk only we might fail
.
So if we've the five, tenminutes I and suggestion or or
activity that's shorter, that wecan pull on when we have a
really busy day, you can say toyourself I have a, I have 10
minutes between meetings, I'mgoing to go out and do that, tap
, tap, tap, etc.
(34:13):
And that's that's where theplanning is still really
important.
With self-care, I have to saythe most success I've seen with
clients bringing in a good,healthy self-care is where they
have built it into calendars andthey have looked to that
profile and extended it out.
But it's it's.
You know, I want to encouragepeople because every little bit
(34:36):
helps and sometimes you'realready maybe listening to a
piece of music on a break orperhaps you're picking up a
magazine and reading a couple ofarticles.
So what also helps us, alex, isto say that intention at the
start of doing that.
I am taking a break from worknow and I'm going to read those
(34:57):
three stories in my favouritemagazine.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (35:00):
Yeah, there's so much there that I
could talk about, and I think,having somebody to, having
somebody like Rowena to speakI'm so lucky that I've, you know
, found Rowena, um, and I'mlucky as well to have other
people within my network.
But that did that didn't comeabout by chance.
That came about by, you know,conversations, but all the
(35:21):
things that are in your mind andagain, with the conversations
that you and I had about thedrumming, that was something
that was the back of my mind,which, through a conversation
with you, it pulled it out tothe front.
So I was thinking to myselfbecause previously I was
thinking to myself how am Igoing to teach my son to play
the drums and how can I buildthat into sort of like my
routine?
And I was thinking about thecomplicated things like the
(35:43):
practice pad and the, thedrumsticks and the, the
drumsticks and the stand andsetting it up and all this sort
of thing.
But Rowena was able to justsimplify it for me.
You know it was just.
It made things so much easier,and so it's important to have
the, the people who can help youwith it, like Rowena.
But also, I think anotherimportant aspect really is
having somebody to beaccountable to for it, so that
(36:05):
you can actually maintain itright thank you.
Rowena Henningan (36:08):
Exactly, and all the psychology we know about
making commitments, changingideas and suggestions into real
behavior and habits, exactlythat, and that's why it does
help to work with someone andand to link it back to
productivity and overalleffectiveness and that whole
holistic remote worker.
I want to highlight somethingwe spoke about as well.
(36:30):
Alex, you know I'm using a bitof minimum coaching here, but
you you know that taking that 10minute break and going away and
connecting with your hands onthe drum and listening to the
sound you're playing out andprogressing along that little
beat, that that will help you bea better remote worker when you
come back to the machine yeahbecause and for anyone who wants
(36:54):
, anyone who's feeling a bitskeptical just even think of
what we've lost in commute timesocial interact from being in an
office, the thing like if youcould get a little image here of
all that commute time peoplegrabbing you for a coffee, you
going down to the shops, youpopping out for your lunch.
Over here we're in the home onlyso.
(37:17):
So I think there's such gapsthere and that's why we have to
be.
That's the reason for beingmore intentional.
Movement has gone down withhomework only.
We know that.
I mean productivity has beenmaintained.
But part of being that holisticremote worker is also saying I
need a break.
It will make me better, if youneed to say that to yourself.
(37:39):
When I come back, I will bemore productive, I will be more
alert and uh yeah, it's been apleasure to work through with
you, but I have to say that thedrums you gave me a really gem
of a one, alex, because drumsare so tactile and assassin yeah
it's a really lovely example no, it's good and it's like I said
it's.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (37:59):
It's simplified things for me, and
it's been like I said I'm verylucky to have had you come um
into into my world and, at theright moment in time as well, to
kind of show me that.
So that's part of my part andparcel of my routine, though,
but I really want to thank you.
I mean, I've got so many morequestions that I'd like to ask
you um, but I know we're comingtowards the end of time now, so
(38:22):
I just wanted to thank you foryour time.
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