September 15, 2024 • 24 mins
In today's episode Jim Frawley, the founder of Bellwether, describes how he went from the high-pressure world of Wall Street to becoming a sought-after change management expert.
Jim's story is a testament to the power of personal milestones—like the birth of his daughter—that catalyze profound life changes, including quitting drinking and starting his own business.
With core values of recognition, altruism, and trust guiding his path, Jim is reshaping executive development through a fresh lens.
Jim shares his take on productivity and the compelling origin story of Bellwether, emphasizing the desire to offer more than the conventional, corporate world could provide. His dissatisfaction with standard practices inspired a company dedicated to impactful leadership and genuine personal growth.
The future of business sounds exciting, especially with AI integration on the horizon. Plus, Jim shares real-life examples of organizational transformation through simple but effective practices.
I reckon Jim's experiences offer a template for merging personal and professional ambitions and as Jim says, "There are no rules!"
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Jim is an expert in change management and organizational development. The founder of The Bellwether Method, Jim left a career as a Wall Street Executive to rewrite the rules to corporate and personal development, teaching individuals and executives across the globe how to adapt to change in the new economy and beyond.
Jim is a renowned keynote speaker, best selling author of Adapting in Motion: Finding Your Place in The New Economy, and regular Fast Company Work Life contributor. He's also the host of Jim's Take the podcast, a big-time reader, small-time triathlete, and full-time father and husband.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (00:00):
Our next guest on the Remote Work Life
podcast is Jim Frawley.
Jim is an expert in changemanagement and organisational
development.
He's the founder of theBellwether Method.
Jim left a career as a WallStreet executive to rewrite the
rules of corporate and personaldevelopment, teaching
individuals and executivesacross the globe how to adapt to
(00:22):
change in the new economy andbeyond.
Jim is a renowned keynotespeaker, best-selling author of
Adapting Emotion Finding yourPlace in the New Economy, and
regular Fast Company Work Lifecontributor.
He's also the host of podcastJim's Take, a big-time reader,
small-time triathlete andfull-time father and husband.
(00:45):
So in this first section I wantto find out more about you.
So can you begin by telling meabout yourself?
Jim Frawley (00:54):
Hi, my name is Jim Frawley.
I run an organization calledBellwether.
We are an executive developmentfirm based in New York.
We run the gamut executivecoaching, business consulting,
group workshops and we reallyspecialize in three areas One is
strategic planning, two isexecutive communications.
And three, if we think aboutchange management, it's really,
how do you get people to preparefor change when they don't know
(01:15):
what change is coming?
Um, for fun, I'm a big reader.
I'm reading the thousand andone books to read before you die
.
I'm a small-time triathlete,love to run and with the kids
and just on me.
I have strong opinions, a lotof strong beliefs, but at the
same time, one of my superpowers, I think, is to withhold all
(01:38):
judgment.
I think that's one of my bigattributes on why clients like
to work with me is, you know, wehave to shed assumptions, we
have to shed judgments, andthere's this constant dichotomy
between expressing my opinionswithout judgment on other people
and recognizing that otherpeople can have a different type
of belief system, and I thinkthat's an important part of
coaching organizations andpeople through it.
(01:59):
And if I could speak on myvalues, my big ones are probably
three Recognition is always abig one, but altruism and trust
are huge, and those would be thebig ones.
The biggest notable experiencethat influenced who I am today
it's probably the one that hadthe most watershed moments would
be the birth of my daughter.
(02:19):
I know it's more of a personalone, but I now have two kids,
but she was the first.
It just completely led me downa different path.
Kids can be shackles, of course, but without her I wouldn't
have asked myself the importantquestions that I should have
been asking myself, I wouldn'thave quit drinking, I wouldn't
have done a lot of the things.
(02:40):
And so I see her and I canrecognize that I wish to be an
example.
I want her to be strong and youthink about why you care about
kids.
What do you care about?
Most people would say theirkids, and most people don't ask
why.
Why do you care about your kidsand what do you want?
You want her to be satisfiedand happy and strong and cool,
and for that to happen, I knowthat I have to have my ducks in
(03:01):
a row and I have to have myability to do different types of
things.
I have to be my best every day.
So that really gave me themotivation to execute and work
harder on all the things that Ido.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (03:11):
As you look back on your life and
connect the dots that led youwhere you are now.
What are those dots?
Jim Frawley (03:19):
It's fun to look back on the journey and what are
the big dots?
And there weren't many big.
I guess there were always bigdots, but the big ones for me
that I can think about where Iam today, um, I never liked my
job.
Uh, when I was in corporate andat 30, I had a legitimate
epiphany, uh, laying in bed,that I was effectively wasting
(03:40):
my time doing what other peoplewanted me to do, and that was
from a work perspective, adating perspective, a friend
perspective, all of those thingsand, um, that set me on a
different path to to makedifferent types of decisions.
And shortly after that, I metthe woman who would eventually
become my wife.
I feel like that was aligned insome well, and so that was
another big dot.
For the first time, I felt likeI had someone who really
(04:04):
believed in me and my capabilityto do different types of things
, and I floated my idea forstarting a business and getting
out of corporate.
She said absolutely do it.
She was a huge champion of it,and so that was a big dot.
From there I got married, wehad the kid, we had our daughter
, isabel, and after that, one ofthe big dots for me was my
(04:25):
realization that I needed aquick drinking.
That catapult in my businessbusiness tripled almost
overnight when I did that andthat was a big, important step
for me, and now I'm just inconstant learning mode.
It's you know, next week isprobably going to be another big
dot.
I'm off to do an ayahuasca trip, so we'll see what comes out of
(04:46):
that.
Um, maybe that's a dot, butthere are a lot of ones that set
you on your different kind ofjourney and those would probably
be the big ones off the top ofmy head.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (04:53):
Why did you decide to become a leader in
your chosen niche?
Jim Frawley (04:57):
I had been seeing a coach for a long time when I
was in corporate, because I knewI wanted to do something else.
I had no idea what I wanted todo and a few things just kind of
catapulted at the same time andI decided to become a leader in
coaching and consulting anddevelopment because I was so
disappointed with the productthat was out there.
I remember sitting at the bankthat I worked and people coming
(05:19):
in to do these workshops andeverything else and they were
absolutely horrendous and Icould not believe that these
people would collect a paycheckwith no accountability on their
part to make sure that thingsactually worked.
It just wasn't good enough tothe point where I was disgusted
with it.
It really bothered me, and whenI think about my values of
altruism and trust and makingsure that things are able to get
(05:41):
to where they need to be, thesepeople were really failing the
people they were claiming tohelp.
And so I knew that there was abetter way and I knew that there
was a better business model andI knew that accountability on
the coach's perspective was soimportant and yet constantly
ignored.
And it's ignored because theydidn't have to, and it's turned
out that it's become quite adifferentiator for us in the
(06:03):
business.
But that was, I remember,sitting in one particular
session where I just sat thereand I just started writing out
the business plan on how I woulddo this better.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (06:12):
What was the best advice anyone ever gave
you and did you follow it?
Jim Frawley (06:16):
I've received so much advice and a lot of it, I
just don't take.
Most of us don't take theadvice.
The two bits of advice hit mewhen I needed to hear something.
The first one that comes tomind was when I started my
business.
A friend of mine gave me thequote you can have the greatest
peach tree in Georgia.
Some people just don't likepeaches.
(06:37):
And that was phenomenal adviceon selling a service business.
Because when we have our ownbusiness, we put our identity
into it.
We put so much hope andpersonality into it and
recognizing that it's just notgoing to land with everybody
makes it so much easier to buildsomething that will attract you
to the right types of people.
(06:58):
Don't waste your time trying toget a client.
That's not going to be a goodclient.
And now that we're almost 10years into the business, I don't
have to actively pursue clients, which is phenomenal.
It's one of my filters.
They will come to me when I'mready and I tell people look, I
want to work with everybody, butI'm only going to work with
people when they are ready, andthat's been such a good driver
(07:21):
in terms of our brand and whatwe wish to do and accomplishing
good things with clients torecognize that some people
aren't ready for the peaches yet.
And then the other one was agood quote that I had read.
It's my favorite quote byJean-Jacques Rousseau.
He wrote in a letter to afriend how can anyone be
satisfied in life if they arenot satisfied with the one
person they can never beseparated from?
And that is a.
(07:44):
It's just a classic that youlie in the bed, you make and it
all starts with you.
And it was a big accountabilityreminder of me.
If I want to be successful,then it's all going to start
with me.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (07:56):
And what made you choose remote work and
how has it benefited you?
Jim Frawley (08:01):
I was actually always remote.
You know what made me choosewhen I launched my business 10
years ago.
I just didn't want to pay foroffice space.
I was too cheap and it was justme and all of that, so, as we
would add people to the team,they were all in the New York
area, so it was fine, and so youknow I would always do that
debate Do I really need anoffice space?
Do I really need an officespace?
(08:21):
Most of our work comes to theclient.
We come to the clientindividually and we come to
their office and do the workwith them.
It's a lot of high touch workthere and as we've evolved,
we've made some businessdecisions to just outsource to
vendors, and the people thatwork for me are capable of
(08:42):
executing at a high level atremote.
So when we were doing all that,we get together if we need to.
But I chose remote workprimarily because it was cheap.
With COVID it just added awhole different level of
flexibility with everybody elseworking from home and it became
more open and everyone else.
So I was able to expand thebusiness quite a bit because the
(09:04):
travel time to clients wassignificantly cut back, and so
now it's just become a new toolfor just adding so much
flexibility to what we're ableto accomplish, and so remote
work was really valuable for us.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (09:16):
What are your best tips for organizing
your day and staying productive?
Jim Frawley (09:22):
There are a couple of things that are that I've
learned over time, workingremotely I mean.
The first and foremost isflexibility is key.
Um, standard prioritization.
Work always helps.
We'll must get done.
You know, you kind of listthose things out, you plan your
day, you do time blockingwhatever it is.
There's plenty of advice outthere on that.
So productivity is is there's.
There's different ways to thinkabout productivity and one of
(09:43):
those is just doing a checklistand getting it done and finding
the time to do it.
But what I would also say iswhat helped me be more
productive was forcing myself toget social, in-person social
interaction, not through acomputer.
If possible, I would run outand get a cup of coffee and get
some kind of interaction.
Or I might work out of thelibrary for a little bit, for an
(10:04):
hour.
It gets very lonely in thehouse and I don't think people
fully appreciate the charge weget from getting those little
mini social interactions, thosemicro interactions that give us
a good blast of motivation, theyclear the head.
Productivity will then soar.
And then, in addition toflexibility, when I'm, when,
when I'm working remotely andthis is easy for me because I'm
(10:26):
the boss but um the flexibilityon timing.
I'm super productive firstthing in the morning.
I work from four to seven inthe morning and just get so many
things done before the kids areawake and I get them out the
door.
Um, I have some meetings in theday, but those three hours of
work in the morning even if myday goes sideways I know that
I've gotten what I need to getdone first thing in the morning
and the rest of the day is goodto go.
(10:48):
And so those will be two things.
One, use the flexibility toyour time system that's actually
going to get things done, anduse that flexibility to your
advantage, and then go find thesocial interaction that you're
looking to get.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (11:02):
So now I want to find out more about the
company that you're part of.
So can you please begin bytelling me more about the
company that you're part of andits origin story?
Jim Frawley (11:13):
The origin story about the company.
So the company is Bellwether.
We run executive developmentacross a number of different
industries, and I had beenworking in corporate and I hated
it mostly in the financialindustry, doing a lot of work
strategic work and executivecommunications work and I really
earned my chops in 2008,working with the leaders in the
(11:35):
financial industry throughoutthe financial crisis and so I
had this incredible access thatreally impacted a lot of what I
wanted to do and how I saw anopportunity within the coaching
consultant world, and so while Iwas working in finance, I hated
it.
I went to a coach, I puttogether some business plans not
really knowing that what I didwas really an option, and I saw
that Columbia University had anexecutive coaching program and
(11:56):
it just jumped off the page.
I knew it was the right one forme, so I signed up for it
immediately, did it, quit thenext day, once I finished the
program, started the businessand then the origin story of
naming the business.
A lot of people don't know whata bellwether means.
I went with the title ofbellwether for a number of
different reasons.
I was speaking to a friend andmy daughter's name is Isabel,
(12:18):
and she told me, I had to havebell in the name and name it
after her, and so, afterthinking on it, I settled on
bellwether, which the termbellwether.
It means leader, trendsetter,all of that, which was an
appropriate kind of analogy ormetaphor for the business.
But the word bellwether comesfrom the lead sheep of a flock.
They would put a bell on thelead sheep of a flock and
(12:39):
everyone just followed it, andit was usually the hungriest, it
was usually the toughest, thesmartest, whatever you want to
call it.
And so, again, a perfectanalogy for the business that we
do is how do you become aleader, how do you become a
trendsetter that other peoplewill recognize and notice?
And it really starts with youbeing your own personal
bellwether.
So that's how we got started.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (13:01):
And what's unique about the company.
Jim Frawley (13:03):
Yeah, coaching and consulting services are a dime a
dozen and I recognize that it'sa complete red ocean.
But what makes us unique and, Ithink, what's helped us so much
?
Number one was my experienceworking with the executives in
the financial industry in 2008.
During the crisis drives muchof my work today and preparing
for change when you don't knowwhat change is coming.
(13:24):
I learned so much and I hadsuch incredible access at that
time with the CEOs, coos,investors where I had access
that most people just don't have, and I saw what the good
executives really did amid crazy, crazy change and uncertainty.
And that's being leveraged nowin our work with executives
(13:45):
today.
But also my philosophy on thecoaching and consulting.
I have strong opinions theproduct we offer and the service
we offer.
If I am coaching a team or anindividual or working with an
organization, I'm getting themto coach themselves.
I intend I fully intend to workmyself out of a job with each
client.
(14:05):
No engagement starts without anend date picked up at the very
beginning.
We have clear success metricson how to do it.
If we don't hit those metrics,then we give money back.
There has to be.
One of the big differentiatorsfor us is we have accountability
on us as a firm.
The organization pays the bill.
The person being coached orteam being coached has to have
(14:27):
some kind of accountability onthem, and the coach and
consultant doing the work has tohave accountability on them as
well.
And so that's part of thecontracting at the very
beginning is how are we going tomeasure everybody's
accountability?
And if we don't deliver, thenyou get your money back and
that's helped us take the rightkind of clients, that only the
ones we're only taking, clientsthat we can help, and so that's
a nice kind of differentiatorfor us that you don't typically
(14:49):
see in a coaching and consultingmodel.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (14:53):
What's your philosophy on building a
great team?
Jim Frawley (14:56):
My philosophy for building a great team is twofold
.
One, your people need to have abelief system in place, and I
would argue that you do not havea belief system in place if you
can't understand why someonewould believe something
different than you.
You know, oftentimes what Iremember most in corporate was
(15:16):
people didn't have, or theywould take their beliefs to try
to pass them off as truths.
You cannot know something andbelieve something at the same
time, and a lot of people don'ttake the time to appreciate that
that point.
And so, um, you know, when wethink about, uh, asking good
questions and how do you set upthe right kind of questions?
You need learners on your team,and that's the second part.
(15:37):
Um, they have to understand, uh, what a question is.
You need people not afraid toask questions, and people with a
robust belief system are ableto ask really good questions.
And when we think about hiringpeople and doing these types of
things is we want to weed outinsecurities at the get-go, and
so, when we're building a goodteam, one thing I insist on is
(15:58):
teaching everyone the definitionof a question, and it is a
request for information.
Where you legitimately do notknow the answer, you eliminate
judgment, you eliminateassumption, because those things
will kill you when things arechanging so quickly.
We have to get differentperspectives, we have to
understand how to ask thesereally good questions of
ourselves and of others, andthat is the key to a really
(16:19):
solid team Elimination ofjudgment, elimination of
assumptions and the ability toask really really good questions
.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (16:25):
Can you talk me through the steps of
your hiring process?
Jim Frawley (16:30):
We're a small team.
We use a lot of vendors, so myinterview process is probably
very different than most.
But when I was hiring incorporate right now, all of our
hires new hires come from closerecommendations.
These are people that I trust.
People will tell me I typicallydon't post for a role.
I'll usually ask people I knowfor a good recommendation and I
(16:51):
can place people that way andit's a great filter to kind of
find the people that you want.
But when I'm interviewing forcorporate and getting people
placed in a corporate role, Ihave to figure out how, uh, what
is their capacity for learning?
What is their emotionalcapacity for being wrong, um,
and being okay with that.
So usually in my questions forhiring is I can ask a series of
(17:14):
questions to determine theirlevel of security with
themselves?
Uh, a highly insecure person.
You can find that out very,very quickly, um, and when
they're defensive on a team,they're not going to be an asset
to that team.
So I try to weed out insecurity.
I try to weed out people whoaren't learners.
One of my favorite questions iswhat can I learn from you?
And people who have a robustbelief system and are
(17:38):
comfortable with their workproduct are able to answer that
pretty quickly and pretty well.
So those are the two really bigthings that I look for when I'm
hiring someone good.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (17:47):
How would you describe the company's
success so far?
Jim Frawley (17:50):
The company's success so far I would describe
as fantastic.
It's been great, highlysatisfying.
For me, success is subjective.
I don't put success under thetypical revenue numbers and all
of that that some people woulddo.
If I were to take a look at mybusiness now, uh, I have pure
(18:11):
flexibility on what I want to do.
I have this amazing ability,and a very lucky ability, that I
only take clients that I'm ableto help, and so now I don't
have to.
I'm not forced to take clientsand work that I don't want to do
.
I'm taking clients that areinteresting.
I'm working with people that wecan see and share success in a
(18:37):
really impactful way, and sothat for me, is such a measure
of success that I'm actuallyable to enjoy the work that I do
, and the fact that I couldbuild something so focused on
trust is important.
I'm able to do that.
There are no rules, there's noBS.
There's such freedom in doingwhatever the hell I want, and
that is the ultimate success forme.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (18:58):
And what's next on the horizon?
Jim Frawley (19:02):
There's so much to be excited for the company and
how we're looking at what's next.
We're involving in so manydifferent ways.
Ai has major influence in howyou can develop people and
really challenge people'sassumptions in the way that they
work, so we could potentiallyadopt some kind of AI aspect to
the business.
So we're looking at that.
So we're looking at that howwe're looking to leverage
(19:22):
different types of services thatare uniquely human but can
leverage AI in a different typeof way, still bring real value,
Because ultimately, our work isabout the person who's being
coached or the organizationbeing consulted.
So how do we get them to wherethey need to be in the most
sustainable way, the mostefficient way and the most
repeatable way that they canrepeat what we teach and it's
(19:50):
going to work for them over time.
Outside of that, again, norules.
So I get to do whatever I want.
I'll write another book I havea new book coming out in early
2025.
And then just have fun doingthe type of work that we're
doing in a really good andimpactful way.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (20:02):
Is there a particular team or company
whose culture you admire?
Jim Frawley (20:08):
There are two cultures that I saw that were
really, really.
They just jumped out and it'sall about it.
All came down to settingexpectations.
So the first one was a clientwho built this culture of
curiosity and questions, and itwas a company that I had worked
with, which made it extraspecial.
(20:28):
But it was a small team 20, 25people.
Each day at the beginning ofthe team huddle, everyone rapid
fire went through.
Yesterday I learned X and someanswers were quirky, some were
very smart, but everyone learnedto ask really, really good
questions.
They knew they were expected toconstantly learn and that
completely changed the way thebusiness was executing on a
number of different things.
(20:49):
So every day you had to talkabout what you learned the
previous day.
So that was great.
And then the second one therewas a large organization I
worked with, not a typical typeof industry that you would
expect, it was a constructionfirm, but they, the end of every
meeting, everybody stood upfrom the table and pushed in
their chair and I never saw thatanywhere, which is kind of an
(21:12):
odd thing, but I noticed it.
And when I was talking aboutdeveloping people and changing
culture and doing these types ofthings and the CEO was a little
skeptical on.
Can people change?
And this was a perfect example.
Where I asked about it, I saidwhy does everyone push in their
chair?
They said, oh, one of theprevious owners demanded it and
said everybody had to push intheir chair at the end of a
meeting.
And that dictation, that rule,just stuck with everyone.
(21:39):
That owner was gone, but therewas a commitment and expectation
set stuck with whatever.
That owner was gone, but therewas a commitment and expectation
set.
And it was a perfect metaphorfor change that people can adopt
good things if leadershipexpects it and communicates it
and demands it.
And that was a great example aswell.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (21:53):
And, as we begin to wrap up, what excites
you about what's ahead?
Jim Frawley (21:59):
There's so much to be excited for for what's ahead.
There are no rules.
Now, when you recognize thatthere are no rules, that you can
build anything and I reallybelieve that there are no rules
you can believe anything thatevery, every assumption you have
over time is completely out thewindow.
And so the hard part aboutdoing all of that is narrowing
it down into what specific thingthat you want to go huge on.
(22:21):
But there is so muchpossibility and change ahead,
which is scary for so many,myself included.
Right, there's an unsettlingaspect to that, but there is
also.
There's an opportunity.
You know, when we think aboutwhat we're capable of building
and where we're going to be injust five or 10 years is such an
(22:42):
exciting exercise to go throughwhere we can't even predict it.
Just five or 10 years is suchan exciting exercise to go
through where we can't evenpredict it because we don't even
know what's coming around thebend.
That excites me in such a verycool and interesting way that we
can build whatever we want andthere are no rules to prevent us
from doing it.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (22:59):
And what do you like to do when you're
not working?
Jim Frawley (23:02):
I mean, I'm working all the time.
That's what you get when youyou have a business I think
entrepreneurs will relate tothat.
It's.
It's always in your head, um,but if I had to categorize when
I'm not sitting at the computeror meeting people for the
business, it's uh, I'm eitherreading I'm reading 1001 books
to read before you die or I'mreading some business book or or
something.
Um, I read one to two books aweek at least.
(23:24):
I'm running I'm a big runner.
I'm a small time triathlete.
I like to do triathlon, so thattakes up a lot of my training
time or I'm doing something withthe kids.
I have two kids and you know Iwant to be an active and present
part of their lives.
They're young and I reallyenjoy my time with them too.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (23:44):
So there's it's usually I'm either reading
, running, training for atriathlon, or we're doing
something fun with the kidsthat's it for today's episode of
the remote work life podcast,but if you're a location,
independent freelancer,solopreneur, founder or leader
and want to provide a case studyfor the remote work life
podcast, get in touch with mevia linkedin using the link
(24:05):
below in the show notes.
Our next guest on the Remote Work Life
podcast is Jim Frawley.
Jim is an expert in changemanagement and organisational
development.
He's the founder of theBellwether Method.
Jim left a career as a WallStreet executive to rewrite the
rules of corporate and personaldevelopment, teaching
individuals and executivesacross the globe how to adapt to
(00:22):
change in the new economy andbeyond.
Jim is a renowned keynotespeaker, best-selling author of
Adapting Emotion Finding yourPlace in the New Economy, and
regular Fast Company Work Lifecontributor.
He's also the host of podcastJim's Take, a big-time reader,
small-time triathlete andfull-time father and husband.
(00:45):
So in this first section I wantto find out more about you.
So can you begin by telling meabout yourself?
Jim Frawley (00:54):
Hi, my name is Jim Frawley.
I run an organization calledBellwether.
We are an executive developmentfirm based in New York.
We run the gamut executivecoaching, business consulting,
group workshops and we reallyspecialize in three areas One is
strategic planning, two isexecutive communications.
And three, if we think aboutchange management, it's really,
how do you get people to preparefor change when they don't know
(01:15):
what change is coming?
Um, for fun, I'm a big reader.
I'm reading the thousand andone books to read before you die
.
I'm a small-time triathlete,love to run and with the kids
and just on me.
I have strong opinions, a lotof strong beliefs, but at the
same time, one of my superpowers, I think, is to withhold all
(01:38):
judgment.
I think that's one of my bigattributes on why clients like
to work with me is, you know, wehave to shed assumptions, we
have to shed judgments, andthere's this constant dichotomy
between expressing my opinionswithout judgment on other people
and recognizing that otherpeople can have a different type
of belief system, and I thinkthat's an important part of
coaching organizations andpeople through it.
(01:59):
And if I could speak on myvalues, my big ones are probably
three Recognition is always abig one, but altruism and trust
are huge, and those would be thebig ones.
The biggest notable experiencethat influenced who I am today
it's probably the one that hadthe most watershed moments would
be the birth of my daughter.
(02:19):
I know it's more of a personalone, but I now have two kids,
but she was the first.
It just completely led me downa different path.
Kids can be shackles, of course, but without her I wouldn't
have asked myself the importantquestions that I should have
been asking myself, I wouldn'thave quit drinking, I wouldn't
have done a lot of the things.
(02:40):
And so I see her and I canrecognize that I wish to be an
example.
I want her to be strong and youthink about why you care about
kids.
What do you care about?
Most people would say theirkids, and most people don't ask
why.
Why do you care about your kidsand what do you want?
You want her to be satisfiedand happy and strong and cool,
and for that to happen, I knowthat I have to have my ducks in
(03:01):
a row and I have to have myability to do different types of
things.
I have to be my best every day.
So that really gave me themotivation to execute and work
harder on all the things that Ido.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (03:11):
As you look back on your life and
connect the dots that led youwhere you are now.
What are those dots?
Jim Frawley (03:19):
It's fun to look back on the journey and what are
the big dots?
And there weren't many big.
I guess there were always bigdots, but the big ones for me
that I can think about where Iam today, um, I never liked my
job.
Uh, when I was in corporate andat 30, I had a legitimate
epiphany, uh, laying in bed,that I was effectively wasting
(03:40):
my time doing what other peoplewanted me to do, and that was
from a work perspective, adating perspective, a friend
perspective, all of those thingsand, um, that set me on a
different path to to makedifferent types of decisions.
And shortly after that, I metthe woman who would eventually
become my wife.
I feel like that was aligned insome well, and so that was
another big dot.
For the first time, I felt likeI had someone who really
(04:04):
believed in me and my capabilityto do different types of things
, and I floated my idea forstarting a business and getting
out of corporate.
She said absolutely do it.
She was a huge champion of it,and so that was a big dot.
From there I got married, wehad the kid, we had our daughter
, isabel, and after that, one ofthe big dots for me was my
(04:25):
realization that I needed aquick drinking.
That catapult in my businessbusiness tripled almost
overnight when I did that andthat was a big, important step
for me, and now I'm just inconstant learning mode.
It's you know, next week isprobably going to be another big
dot.
I'm off to do an ayahuasca trip, so we'll see what comes out of
(04:46):
that.
Um, maybe that's a dot, butthere are a lot of ones that set
you on your different kind ofjourney and those would probably
be the big ones off the top ofmy head.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (04:53):
Why did you decide to become a leader in
your chosen niche?
Jim Frawley (04:57):
I had been seeing a coach for a long time when I
was in corporate, because I knewI wanted to do something else.
I had no idea what I wanted todo and a few things just kind of
catapulted at the same time andI decided to become a leader in
coaching and consulting anddevelopment because I was so
disappointed with the productthat was out there.
I remember sitting at the bankthat I worked and people coming
(05:19):
in to do these workshops andeverything else and they were
absolutely horrendous and Icould not believe that these
people would collect a paycheckwith no accountability on their
part to make sure that thingsactually worked.
It just wasn't good enough tothe point where I was disgusted
with it.
It really bothered me, and whenI think about my values of
altruism and trust and makingsure that things are able to get
(05:41):
to where they need to be, thesepeople were really failing the
people they were claiming tohelp.
And so I knew that there was abetter way and I knew that there
was a better business model andI knew that accountability on
the coach's perspective was soimportant and yet constantly
ignored.
And it's ignored because theydidn't have to, and it's turned
out that it's become quite adifferentiator for us in the
(06:03):
business.
But that was, I remember,sitting in one particular
session where I just sat thereand I just started writing out
the business plan on how I woulddo this better.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (06:12):
What was the best advice anyone ever gave
you and did you follow it?
Jim Frawley (06:16):
I've received so much advice and a lot of it, I
just don't take.
Most of us don't take theadvice.
The two bits of advice hit mewhen I needed to hear something.
The first one that comes tomind was when I started my
business.
A friend of mine gave me thequote you can have the greatest
peach tree in Georgia.
Some people just don't likepeaches.
(06:37):
And that was phenomenal adviceon selling a service business.
Because when we have our ownbusiness, we put our identity
into it.
We put so much hope andpersonality into it and
recognizing that it's just notgoing to land with everybody
makes it so much easier to buildsomething that will attract you
to the right types of people.
(06:58):
Don't waste your time trying toget a client.
That's not going to be a goodclient.
And now that we're almost 10years into the business, I don't
have to actively pursue clients, which is phenomenal.
It's one of my filters.
They will come to me when I'mready and I tell people look, I
want to work with everybody, butI'm only going to work with
people when they are ready, andthat's been such a good driver
(07:21):
in terms of our brand and whatwe wish to do and accomplishing
good things with clients torecognize that some people
aren't ready for the peaches yet.
And then the other one was agood quote that I had read.
It's my favorite quote byJean-Jacques Rousseau.
He wrote in a letter to afriend how can anyone be
satisfied in life if they arenot satisfied with the one
person they can never beseparated from?
And that is a.
(07:44):
It's just a classic that youlie in the bed, you make and it
all starts with you.
And it was a big accountabilityreminder of me.
If I want to be successful,then it's all going to start
with me.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (07:56):
And what made you choose remote work and
how has it benefited you?
Jim Frawley (08:01):
I was actually always remote.
You know what made me choosewhen I launched my business 10
years ago.
I just didn't want to pay foroffice space.
I was too cheap and it was justme and all of that, so, as we
would add people to the team,they were all in the New York
area, so it was fine, and so youknow I would always do that
debate Do I really need anoffice space?
Do I really need an officespace?
(08:21):
Most of our work comes to theclient.
We come to the clientindividually and we come to
their office and do the workwith them.
It's a lot of high touch workthere and as we've evolved,
we've made some businessdecisions to just outsource to
vendors, and the people thatwork for me are capable of
(08:42):
executing at a high level atremote.
So when we were doing all that,we get together if we need to.
But I chose remote workprimarily because it was cheap.
With COVID it just added awhole different level of
flexibility with everybody elseworking from home and it became
more open and everyone else.
So I was able to expand thebusiness quite a bit because the
(09:04):
travel time to clients wassignificantly cut back, and so
now it's just become a new toolfor just adding so much
flexibility to what we're ableto accomplish, and so remote
work was really valuable for us.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (09:16):
What are your best tips for organizing
your day and staying productive?
Jim Frawley (09:22):
There are a couple of things that are that I've
learned over time, workingremotely I mean.
The first and foremost isflexibility is key.
Um, standard prioritization.
Work always helps.
We'll must get done.
You know, you kind of listthose things out, you plan your
day, you do time blockingwhatever it is.
There's plenty of advice outthere on that.
So productivity is is there's.
There's different ways to thinkabout productivity and one of
(09:43):
those is just doing a checklistand getting it done and finding
the time to do it.
But what I would also say iswhat helped me be more
productive was forcing myself toget social, in-person social
interaction, not through acomputer.
If possible, I would run outand get a cup of coffee and get
some kind of interaction.
Or I might work out of thelibrary for a little bit, for an
(10:04):
hour.
It gets very lonely in thehouse and I don't think people
fully appreciate the charge weget from getting those little
mini social interactions, thosemicro interactions that give us
a good blast of motivation, theyclear the head.
Productivity will then soar.
And then, in addition toflexibility, when I'm, when,
when I'm working remotely andthis is easy for me because I'm
(10:26):
the boss but um the flexibilityon timing.
I'm super productive firstthing in the morning.
I work from four to seven inthe morning and just get so many
things done before the kids areawake and I get them out the
door.
Um, I have some meetings in theday, but those three hours of
work in the morning even if myday goes sideways I know that
I've gotten what I need to getdone first thing in the morning
and the rest of the day is goodto go.
(10:48):
And so those will be two things.
One, use the flexibility toyour time system that's actually
going to get things done, anduse that flexibility to your
advantage, and then go find thesocial interaction that you're
looking to get.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (11:02):
So now I want to find out more about the
company that you're part of.
So can you please begin bytelling me more about the
company that you're part of andits origin story?
Jim Frawley (11:13):
The origin story about the company.
So the company is Bellwether.
We run executive developmentacross a number of different
industries, and I had beenworking in corporate and I hated
it mostly in the financialindustry, doing a lot of work
strategic work and executivecommunications work and I really
earned my chops in 2008,working with the leaders in the
(11:35):
financial industry throughoutthe financial crisis and so I
had this incredible access thatreally impacted a lot of what I
wanted to do and how I saw anopportunity within the coaching
consultant world, and so while Iwas working in finance, I hated
it.
I went to a coach, I puttogether some business plans not
really knowing that what I didwas really an option, and I saw
that Columbia University had anexecutive coaching program and
(11:56):
it just jumped off the page.
I knew it was the right one forme, so I signed up for it
immediately, did it, quit thenext day, once I finished the
program, started the businessand then the origin story of
naming the business.
A lot of people don't know whata bellwether means.
I went with the title ofbellwether for a number of
different reasons.
I was speaking to a friend andmy daughter's name is Isabel,
(12:18):
and she told me, I had to havebell in the name and name it
after her, and so, afterthinking on it, I settled on
bellwether, which the termbellwether.
It means leader, trendsetter,all of that, which was an
appropriate kind of analogy ormetaphor for the business.
But the word bellwether comesfrom the lead sheep of a flock.
They would put a bell on thelead sheep of a flock and
(12:39):
everyone just followed it, andit was usually the hungriest, it
was usually the toughest, thesmartest, whatever you want to
call it.
And so, again, a perfectanalogy for the business that we
do is how do you become aleader, how do you become a
trendsetter that other peoplewill recognize and notice?
And it really starts with youbeing your own personal
bellwether.
So that's how we got started.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (13:01):
And what's unique about the company.
Jim Frawley (13:03):
Yeah, coaching and consulting services are a dime a
dozen and I recognize that it'sa complete red ocean.
But what makes us unique and, Ithink, what's helped us so much
?
Number one was my experienceworking with the executives in
the financial industry in 2008.
During the crisis drives muchof my work today and preparing
for change when you don't knowwhat change is coming.
(13:24):
I learned so much and I hadsuch incredible access at that
time with the CEOs, coos,investors where I had access
that most people just don't have, and I saw what the good
executives really did amid crazy, crazy change and uncertainty.
And that's being leveraged nowin our work with executives
(13:45):
today.
But also my philosophy on thecoaching and consulting.
I have strong opinions theproduct we offer and the service
we offer.
If I am coaching a team or anindividual or working with an
organization, I'm getting themto coach themselves.
I intend I fully intend to workmyself out of a job with each
client.
(14:05):
No engagement starts without anend date picked up at the very
beginning.
We have clear success metricson how to do it.
If we don't hit those metrics,then we give money back.
There has to be.
One of the big differentiatorsfor us is we have accountability
on us as a firm.
The organization pays the bill.
The person being coached orteam being coached has to have
(14:27):
some kind of accountability onthem, and the coach and
consultant doing the work has tohave accountability on them as
well.
And so that's part of thecontracting at the very
beginning is how are we going tomeasure everybody's
accountability?
And if we don't deliver, thenyou get your money back and
that's helped us take the rightkind of clients, that only the
ones we're only taking, clientsthat we can help, and so that's
a nice kind of differentiatorfor us that you don't typically
(14:49):
see in a coaching and consultingmodel.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (14:53):
What's your philosophy on building a
great team?
Jim Frawley (14:56):
My philosophy for building a great team is twofold
.
One, your people need to have abelief system in place, and I
would argue that you do not havea belief system in place if you
can't understand why someonewould believe something
different than you.
You know, oftentimes what Iremember most in corporate was
(15:16):
people didn't have, or theywould take their beliefs to try
to pass them off as truths.
You cannot know something andbelieve something at the same
time, and a lot of people don'ttake the time to appreciate that
that point.
And so, um, you know, when wethink about, uh, asking good
questions and how do you set upthe right kind of questions?
You need learners on your team,and that's the second part.
(15:37):
Um, they have to understand, uh, what a question is.
You need people not afraid toask questions, and people with a
robust belief system are ableto ask really good questions.
And when we think about hiringpeople and doing these types of
things is we want to weed outinsecurities at the get-go, and
so, when we're building a goodteam, one thing I insist on is
(15:58):
teaching everyone the definitionof a question, and it is a
request for information.
Where you legitimately do notknow the answer, you eliminate
judgment, you eliminateassumption, because those things
will kill you when things arechanging so quickly.
We have to get differentperspectives, we have to
understand how to ask thesereally good questions of
ourselves and of others, andthat is the key to a really
(16:19):
solid team Elimination ofjudgment, elimination of
assumptions and the ability toask really really good questions
.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (16:25):
Can you talk me through the steps of
your hiring process?
Jim Frawley (16:30):
We're a small team.
We use a lot of vendors, so myinterview process is probably
very different than most.
But when I was hiring incorporate right now, all of our
hires new hires come from closerecommendations.
These are people that I trust.
People will tell me I typicallydon't post for a role.
I'll usually ask people I knowfor a good recommendation and I
(16:51):
can place people that way andit's a great filter to kind of
find the people that you want.
But when I'm interviewing forcorporate and getting people
placed in a corporate role, Ihave to figure out how, uh, what
is their capacity for learning?
What is their emotionalcapacity for being wrong, um,
and being okay with that.
So usually in my questions forhiring is I can ask a series of
(17:14):
questions to determine theirlevel of security with
themselves?
Uh, a highly insecure person.
You can find that out very,very quickly, um, and when
they're defensive on a team,they're not going to be an asset
to that team.
So I try to weed out insecurity.
I try to weed out people whoaren't learners.
One of my favorite questions iswhat can I learn from you?
And people who have a robustbelief system and are
(17:38):
comfortable with their workproduct are able to answer that
pretty quickly and pretty well.
So those are the two really bigthings that I look for when I'm
hiring someone good.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (17:47):
How would you describe the company's
success so far?
Jim Frawley (17:50):
The company's success so far I would describe
as fantastic.
It's been great, highlysatisfying.
For me, success is subjective.
I don't put success under thetypical revenue numbers and all
of that that some people woulddo.
If I were to take a look at mybusiness now, uh, I have pure
(18:11):
flexibility on what I want to do.
I have this amazing ability,and a very lucky ability, that I
only take clients that I'm ableto help, and so now I don't
have to.
I'm not forced to take clientsand work that I don't want to do
.
I'm taking clients that areinteresting.
I'm working with people that wecan see and share success in a
(18:37):
really impactful way, and sothat for me, is such a measure
of success that I'm actuallyable to enjoy the work that I do
, and the fact that I couldbuild something so focused on
trust is important.
I'm able to do that.
There are no rules, there's noBS.
There's such freedom in doingwhatever the hell I want, and
that is the ultimate success forme.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (18:58):
And what's next on the horizon?
Jim Frawley (19:02):
There's so much to be excited for the company and
how we're looking at what's next.
We're involving in so manydifferent ways.
Ai has major influence in howyou can develop people and
really challenge people'sassumptions in the way that they
work, so we could potentiallyadopt some kind of AI aspect to
the business.
So we're looking at that.
So we're looking at that howwe're looking to leverage
(19:22):
different types of services thatare uniquely human but can
leverage AI in a different typeof way, still bring real value,
Because ultimately, our work isabout the person who's being
coached or the organizationbeing consulted.
So how do we get them to wherethey need to be in the most
sustainable way, the mostefficient way and the most
repeatable way that they canrepeat what we teach and it's
(19:50):
going to work for them over time.
Outside of that, again, norules.
So I get to do whatever I want.
I'll write another book I havea new book coming out in early
2025.
And then just have fun doingthe type of work that we're
doing in a really good andimpactful way.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (20:02):
Is there a particular team or company
whose culture you admire?
Jim Frawley (20:08):
There are two cultures that I saw that were
really, really.
They just jumped out and it'sall about it.
All came down to settingexpectations.
So the first one was a clientwho built this culture of
curiosity and questions, and itwas a company that I had worked
with, which made it extraspecial.
(20:28):
But it was a small team 20, 25people.
Each day at the beginning ofthe team huddle, everyone rapid
fire went through.
Yesterday I learned X and someanswers were quirky, some were
very smart, but everyone learnedto ask really, really good
questions.
They knew they were expected toconstantly learn and that
completely changed the way thebusiness was executing on a
number of different things.
(20:49):
So every day you had to talkabout what you learned the
previous day.
So that was great.
And then the second one therewas a large organization I
worked with, not a typical typeof industry that you would
expect, it was a constructionfirm, but they, the end of every
meeting, everybody stood upfrom the table and pushed in
their chair and I never saw thatanywhere, which is kind of an
(21:12):
odd thing, but I noticed it.
And when I was talking aboutdeveloping people and changing
culture and doing these types ofthings and the CEO was a little
skeptical on.
Can people change?
And this was a perfect example.
Where I asked about it, I saidwhy does everyone push in their
chair?
They said, oh, one of theprevious owners demanded it and
said everybody had to push intheir chair at the end of a
meeting.
And that dictation, that rule,just stuck with everyone.
(21:39):
That owner was gone, but therewas a commitment and expectation
set stuck with whatever.
That owner was gone, but therewas a commitment and expectation
set.
And it was a perfect metaphorfor change that people can adopt
good things if leadershipexpects it and communicates it
and demands it.
And that was a great example aswell.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (21:53):
And, as we begin to wrap up, what excites
you about what's ahead?
Jim Frawley (21:59):
There's so much to be excited for for what's ahead.
There are no rules.
Now, when you recognize thatthere are no rules, that you can
build anything and I reallybelieve that there are no rules
you can believe anything thatevery, every assumption you have
over time is completely out thewindow.
And so the hard part aboutdoing all of that is narrowing
it down into what specific thingthat you want to go huge on.
(22:21):
But there is so muchpossibility and change ahead,
which is scary for so many,myself included.
Right, there's an unsettlingaspect to that, but there is
also.
There's an opportunity.
You know, when we think aboutwhat we're capable of building
and where we're going to be injust five or 10 years is such an
(22:42):
exciting exercise to go throughwhere we can't even predict it.
Just five or 10 years is suchan exciting exercise to go
through where we can't evenpredict it because we don't even
know what's coming around thebend.
That excites me in such a verycool and interesting way that we
can build whatever we want andthere are no rules to prevent us
from doing it.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (22:59):
And what do you like to do when you're
not working?
Jim Frawley (23:02):
I mean, I'm working all the time.
That's what you get when youyou have a business I think
entrepreneurs will relate tothat.
It's.
It's always in your head, um,but if I had to categorize when
I'm not sitting at the computeror meeting people for the
business, it's uh, I'm eitherreading I'm reading 1001 books
to read before you die or I'mreading some business book or or
something.
Um, I read one to two books aweek at least.
(23:24):
I'm running I'm a big runner.
I'm a small time triathlete.
I like to do triathlon, so thattakes up a lot of my training
time or I'm doing something withthe kids.
I have two kids and you know Iwant to be an active and present
part of their lives.
They're young and I reallyenjoy my time with them too.
Alex Wilson-Campbell (23:44):
So there's it's usually I'm either reading
, running, training for atriathlon, or we're doing
something fun with the kidsthat's it for today's episode of
the remote work life podcast,but if you're a location,
independent freelancer,solopreneur, founder or leader
and want to provide a case studyfor the remote work life
podcast, get in touch with mevia linkedin using the link
(24:05):
below in the show notes.
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