September 4, 2024 • 38 mins
Join hosts Rick Haney and Kaleem Clarkson for a lively and insightful chat with Iwo Szapar, the CEO and co-founder of Remote How. Together, they dive into a conversation brimming with humor, camaraderie, and deep insights into the ever-evolving future of work. Iwo, a trailblazer in remote work advocacy and an expert in AI integration takes us on a journey from his hometown of Gdynia, Poland, to becoming a global thought leader. With a resume boasting over 3,000 companies—including heavyweights like Walmart, Microsoft, and ING Bank—Szapar has been at the forefront of helping businesses navigate the complexities of remote and hybrid work.
Iwo reflects on his international adventures, which began with a work opportunity in Austin, Texas, and blossomed into a nomadic lifestyle that has seen him living in 15 countries across Asia, Europe, and beyond. His travels, driven by a passion for experiencing diverse cultures and broadening his perspective, have deeply influenced his approach to remote work. From the vibrant streets of Vietnam to the serene landscapes of Colombia, he has witnessed firsthand the global shift toward remote work, a trend that surged during the COVID-19 pandemic.
The spark that ignited Remote How in 2017—a time when remote work was still gaining traction—was fueled by the growing demand among millennials for work flexibility and the challenges companies faced in attracting talent. Remote How was born with a clear mission: to empower individuals and organizations to fully embrace the freedom that remote work offers.
As one of the early adopters of the digital nomad lifestyle, Iwo shares his insights into the unique challenges and rewards of this way of life. He also traces the remarkable evolution of Remote How and its significant impact on the remote work landscape. From its inception with the Remote Future Summit—the largest virtual conference on remote work at the time—to the launch of the Remote How Academy, the world’s first certification program for remote workers, Iwo has been committed to equipping individuals and companies with the skills and knowledge necessary to excel in a distributed work environment.
Now the Remote Work rocket continues to soar and the intersection of AI and remote work becomes increasingly inevitable. For Iwo, AI is set to reshape industries, emphasizing that AI should be seen as a tool for empowerment rather than a threat. But despite being a visionary, Iwo remains grounded in the reality of uncertainties surrounding the future of work, particularly with the rapid advancement of AI. Traditional career paths, like software engineering, which were once considered secure, are now being challenged by the rise of AI.
This must-listen episode is perfect for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of remote work, the challenges of organizational change, and the transformative potential of AI. Szapar’s unique insights and experiences offer valuable guidance for navigating these complex and rapidly changing environments. Whether you’re a remote work enthusiast, a digital nomad, or simply curious about the future of work, this episode is packed with knowledge and inspiration to help you embrace the future with confidence and creativity.
Learn more about Iwo:
- Iwo’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iwoszapar/
- Remote How: https://www.remote-how.com/
- Remote-First Institute:
More about us:
- Remotely One’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/remotelyone
- Remotely One’s Webpage: https
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kaleem (00:00):
where are you originally from?
Iwo (00:01):
from Poland,
Kaleem (00:02):
is there a city you represent?
All
Iwo (00:06):
I'm a seaside
Rick (00:07):
He ain't ever gonna pronounce that.
Kaleem (00:09):
right, let's try it.
Say it again, One more time, onemore time.
Dynxed.
Rick (00:20):
Nope.
This
Kaleem (00:25):
Oh, g'dynxed.
G'dynxed.
This is the best part of theshow.
He loves it.
You love you.
You do not.
You're going to play this overand over for your Polish, for
your Poland.
This is dumb motherfuckingAmerican.
Can't even get the shit.
Good.
(00:48):
Thanks.
Poland.
Let's go, baby.
Let's go.
Rick (00:57):
Welcome back, everyone, to Remotely One.
I am your host, Rick Haney,joined by my esteemed colleague,
Kaleem Clarkson.
What's going on, brother?
Kaleem (01:06):
I just love to fly.
I love to fly.
Rick (01:09):
an eagle.
Hey, everybody.
It's good to be back in thebooth.
My brother from another mother.
Hey, since you know how to findus, do us a huge favor.
Go to ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotely oneand leave us a review.
Not a big deal.
Won't take more than fiveseconds of your life.
Again, rate this podcast dot comforward slash RemotelyOne, and
(01:32):
we would be ever so grateful.
Since 2015, RemotelyOne is oneof the largest communities of
remote work professionals, withover 2, 500 Slack members and 4,
000 email subscribers.
That's huge.
Kaleem (01:46):
Mm.
Rick (01:47):
those are good numbers.
I like that.
It's free to join.
So go check it out atremotelyone.
com and with that stuff out ofthe way, Kaleem, please, if you
would, give us a tease or twoabout today's special guest.
Kaleem (02:00):
Mm.
Mm.
You know what,
Rick (02:02):
the zone, folks.
He's in the zone.
Kaleem (02:04):
Ooh, Ooh.
I put my shirt on.
I put my podcast shirt on withthe colors.
So, you know, just shiningbright for today's guests
because today's guest is cool asish.
Today's guest still love lovesthe frosted tip hairstyle, still
looking great.
I mean, our guest today is Ish.
I don't want to say it atrendsetter.
(02:26):
I guess today's a trendsetter,Rick.
they are originally from Poland,Rick.
I guess today's originally fromPoland and danxed.
Thanks.
Rick (02:34):
Oh, oh, oh, okay.
Kaleem (02:36):
Yep.
By the sea.
By the sea, dude.
Yep.
Rick (02:41):
I love, that's a great Polish accent by the way.
Kaleem (02:43):
Yes.
Yes.
Is it?
Yes,
Rick (02:48):
I am part of by the sea.
Kaleem (02:50):
by the sea by the sea.
All right.
Um, our guest is also acontributing writer for we
worked.
Rick, I guess today's also anArthur, bro.
They wrote books and author andauthor.
Yes, a Writer a writer of books.
(03:11):
It's good, too.
I got one.
I have a copy.
I should show everybody, but I'mnot going to.
It's awesome.
The book is called Remote workis the way.
Check it out.
I was very, very, very lucky toget an early copy.
So thank you.
He's helped over 3000 companies,Rick 3000 companies and has been
(03:35):
a remote work advisor for, Idon't know, ING bank, just a
little company, Walmart, just atiny business, Microsoft.
If you haven't heard of them.
Rick (03:46):
That's
Kaleem (03:47):
So again, Rick, although our guest is cool as ish, just
chilling.
I had to put on two shirtstoday.
I had to put on two shirts.
Rick (03:56):
That's big time.
I can feel the perspiration fromhere.
Kaleem (03:59):
These have pads in them, Rick, so I don't sweat through
them.
That's right.
I had to put it on because I'mso nervous.
Rick (04:06):
it's no wonder we're so successful.
Kaleem (04:11):
Rick.
Our guest is also the founder atthe Saudi AI leadership forum,
Rick (04:15):
Wow.
That's, a huge accomplishment.
Kaleem (04:18):
Yeah.
We got to talk about that.
Oh, something that we learnedabout our guest today is that
he's addicted to American andEuropean politics.
Just addicted to it.
He just keeps Googling it,watching it like it's a TV show.
I mean, I guess I understand.
I guess I understand.
I mean, we've seen some ish,
Rick (04:37):
It's the most entertaining shit in the world.
I mean, let's be honest.
Kaleem (04:41):
but he doesn't know why he keeps doing it to himself
because it is emotional.
It's an emotional investment.
It's like you're up and thenyou're down, you're up and down.
Um, Oh, He has called 15countries his home.
15 countries.
Yeah,
Rick (04:58):
So he's a world traveler.
Kaleem (04:59):
Right, right.
He loves dogs.
He loves Keanu Reeves and PointBreak.
Because he loves to surf.
And you know what I mean?
Like, he is, you know, he isliving the life.
Hang ten, baby.
Rick (05:13):
got more of the Patrick Swayze look to him though, I'll
give him
Kaleem (05:16):
yes.
What was Patrick's name in thatmovie?
Come on.
Oh, Brody.
Brody.
my gosh.
Rick, our guest is the CEO andco founder of Remote How, which
helps organizations make remoteand hybrid work work.
He's also the co founder andhead of remote at the Remote
First Institute.
(05:37):
Listeners and viewers, pleasegive a warm welcome to Iwo
szapar! Let's go, bro! Let'sthis! We're doing this! Finally
(05:59):
all studio audience settle down
Rick (06:02):
Take a pill, people.
Let's chill out.
Thank you.
Kaleem (06:06):
We finally got him on the show
Iwo (06:08):
guys, I need to say that that was A, the longest intro
I've ever had, but then the bestone as well.
So,
Rick (06:17):
Well, we had to tell your life story to make it, uh,
credible, if you
Kaleem (06:20):
Right, I mean we figure ten minutes of the intro and
like five minutes of the podcastthat's
Rick (06:26):
Yeah, yeah.
You know what's funny is that,Kaleem, you went out of your way
to say, Hey, don't mention yourname during the intro, and then
you mentioned his name.
So we'll have to cut that out.
Ha ha ha!
Iwo (06:39):
no, it's really, it's a, it's an honor to be here.
We finally make it happen.
So, uh, Really excited to behere.
Rick (06:47):
yeah, we're so happy that the stars have aligned and
you're able to meet with us.
So let's, let's dig right intothis thing,
Kaleem (06:54):
Audience, we've been trying to book Iwo for over a
year and a half.
Okay.
So if you want to get to him, ifyou want to get to him, y'all
need to get working now.
I suggest that.
I
Rick (07:04):
Yes.
He is that important.
Yes.
Iwo (07:09):
trying to, trying to optimize, you know, like after,
after having two burnouts, Ilearned that, you need to say no
more often.
You need to organize things in adifferent way.
But, I'm still learning.
I'm still learning, but, uh,It's, it's a pleasure that we
are here, so let's, let's havesome fun.
Rick (07:31):
Yes, man.
You know, I will say if youdon't start booking now, if you
don't book him soon, you'regoing to get the AI version.
So
Iwo (07:38):
yeah, yeah, for sure.
Rick (07:39):
to make that happen.
So, so Iwo, I mean, I'm, I'mfascinated by your history, but
the 15 countries thing, I mean,holy cow, what has it been like,
making that claim?
Like tell me some of the things,some of the places, your
experiences.
Kaleem (07:56):
Oh, first name him.
First name him.
Let's go.
You got, you got the list.
We know.
Yes.
Alphabetically, please.
Um, first name him.
Let's go.
I know
Iwo (08:06):
yeah, yeah.
So, so it all started when wemoved to US.
So we lived in Austin, one and ahalf year.
Then, uh, we moved to, uh, tomany countries in Asia.
So we lived in Vietnam, inCambodia, in Thailand, bit of
Hong Kong.
Then we went back to Europe,Poland, Portugal, Spain.
(08:29):
Then we went back to Asia.
We were in Vietnam for.
Over a year, almost one and ahalf year during COVID, then
came back.
Then, another place in Spain,again, Portugal, whatever it is,
Italy, Morocco, I don't know ifwe're at 15 or not, but, uh,
Columbia.
Yeah,
Kaleem (08:50):
I think you hit it.
You're close.
If 13 whatever, it's
Rick (08:53):
Right, right, right.
So were the, were these all bychoice or were you following
opportunities?
Iwo (08:59):
no, no choice.
So we, we, uh, so when we.
So the first one was theopportunity to be precise
because we I was working for acompany that offered me to
relocate from Europe to us.
So that was kind of like thestart of the journey.
But then when we started remotehow in late 2017, it was our
(09:20):
mission to empower everyone tohave the freedom of choice
where, where, when, where andwhen you work.
And obviously how you work.
And this is also how we, ranour, our company.
So we had a team that was spreadacross multiple time zones and
we were also able to live indifferent places.
(09:40):
So that was the starting point.
And then from there, it turnedinto the beginning that the
digital nomad thing in like2018, 19, 20, but then we kind
of got tired of like constantlymoving and changing places.
So, in March, 2020, we happenedto be in Vietnam.
And you know what happened inMarch 2020.
(10:03):
You may have have heard of thisthing called COVID.
Kaleem (10:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rick (10:08):
I vaguely remember
Iwo (10:10):
Vaguely.
Yeah.
So we were in Vietnam and March2020.
And then it kind of forced us tostay there for a longer time.
And then we decided to stay evenlonger.
And that was probably like oneof the best, Times we ever had
and I experienced somethingtotally different.
So, uh, Vietnam, big place in,in, in my heart.
Kaleem (10:30):
Iwo.
Iwo.
Quick question.
Like, this is before thepandemic where you decided, Hey,
Let's go somewhere else.
what was the thing that kind ofmade you decide, Hey, we want to
kind of be digital nomads.
Was there something just this,um, infatuation with just
travel?
Like, like what?
Iwo (10:50):
So I think, there were like multiple factors, starting from,
chasing the sun.
so that would be like numberone, then, uh, number two would
be, learning about othercultures and places in a
different way that you just liketravel for holidays for like a
week or two.
It's totally different thanbeing somewhere for a few weeks,
(11:11):
few months and living withlocals.
So I think that's that.
That's the second thing.
then obviously if you can be indifferent places, um, you can
also do different things on aday to day basis.
So it's not always the samesurroundings, not always the
same hobbies, not always thesame people.
(11:33):
I think.
Then another aspect is peoplewe've met literally, I would say
the, probably if I sit down andwrite it down thousands of
people throughout these yearsfrom different continents,
different cultures, differentbackgrounds.
and we've, with a lot of them,we, we keep in touch.
And I think this is a huge.
(11:54):
Enrichment to your perspectiveof the world as compared if you
were born in a single in aspecific country and you live
there for I'm not saying thatthis is good or bad.
I'm just saying that.
If you experience something likethis, you sometimes have a
different point of view.
so I think that was, somethingthat we maybe didn't,
(12:14):
understand, but we started toreally appreciate as we
experience it on a daily basis.
And then obviously as a, as awrap up, um, being able to work
in, in different locations,gives you, at least for us, it
was a happiness factor.
So it was, positively impactingthe wellbeing.
(12:36):
Of course there were ups anddowns like everywhere.
I, during the time I had toburnouts.
Uh, but that's more related tooverworking rather than just
like.
Changing places.
Rick (12:46):
Right.
Kaleem (12:47):
sun and perspectives.
I mean, those are the two thingsfor me.
I love chasing the sun.
It took me a second to, yeah, ittook me a second to connect what
you're saying.
I was like, Oh yeah, hell yeah.
Hell yeah.
I went, we, we know about no sunup there in Maine, dog.
There's no sun sometimes, youknow,
Rick (13:01):
why we both live in the south now.
Kaleem (13:04):
but yeah, that perspective, you know, it's,
you're right.
It, there is no right or wrongway.
If you grow up and stay in yourhometown, that's great.
I mean, that's how You knowcultures have grown over
centuries and that's fine buthow you talk about Connecting
and experiencing other thingsand just growing a different
(13:25):
perspective I hadn't reallythought too much about that when
it comes to traveling and you'reabsolutely right.
Iwo (13:32):
yeah.
And I think there is this, likehaving, discussed this topic
many times with my friends.
It's a lot of people dreamabout, Oh, I would love to be a
digital nomad.
Slow Matt.
This is kind of like thetransition that we also made to
like.
Be slower and being in a singleplace, et cetera, et cetera.
(13:54):
so there's a lot of talk, butthen especially before, before
COVID when remote work was notthat, big of a thing, it was a
lot of dreams, but it was hardto fulfill these dreams.
And it doesn't also mean that ifsomeone wanted to do something
that that was right for them.
They thought it would be so coolto be in Vietnam on the beach or
(14:16):
Philippines, whatever Thailand,right.
And have this photo and you'resaying like you're, when you're
lying down with your computerand like working, but then we
met a bunch of people thatactually did it.
It was.
In many cases, a risky move,they needed to sacrifice many
things, et cetera.
And they were like, nah, youknow what, actually, this is not
(14:38):
for me, but at least they tried.
So the majority were just liketalking and thinking, oh, it
would be so cool.
And in many cases, it turnedinto like complaining about
their own lives versus theothers that tried.
And then either they loved itand they're still on the road,
or the others are like, this isnot for me, but at least I
tried.
So now I know.
Rick (14:59):
Now they have the taste for it, so.
if you would, tell us about theorigins of Remote How, and what
was the motivation to start thatcompany?
Iwo (15:07):
Yeah.
So, um, at the time, kind oflike two things were going on in
my life.
So one on the professional side,I was trying to Talent in Austin
to join my team.
And it was really hard, becauseAustin was already a quite a
competitive, market for talent.
And at the same time, we had abunch of conversation in the
(15:29):
office with other millennials atthe time that it would be super
cool to be able to workremotely.
Which was then again, also oneof the, Motivations that I had
privately.
So I started to think like ifthere is a business case where
you can make businesses happierand people happier, by opening
up to, talent from anywhere, andthen also allowing your people
to, to work in different places.
Kaleem (15:49):
Iwo, what year is this roughly?
Wow.
So, so just to clarify.
So, everybody, he's having thisvision three years before the
pandemic.
Three years before.
So, he's like, you know, hey,wouldn't it be great if people
were happy at work?
Imagine that
Iwo (16:09):
that, like I had over like 40 calls with different HR and
like C level people.
and there are like basically twoconclusions.
Like one is that, Uh, no, thisis not for us.
We don't believe in this.
We prefer office, whatever.
And then the other group waysmaller was like, yeah, maybe,
but you know, we don't know howto do it.
Right.
(16:29):
So that's how remote, how it wasborn.
Now kudos to my wife.
There's she invented the name.
Rick (16:37):
Oh, good.
Kaleem (16:37):
Hey, shout out.
Shout out.
What's your name?
Let's give it.
Let's give her some
Iwo (16:41):
Hola.
Hola.
Kaleem (16:42):
Hola.
Iwo (16:43):
short.
Hola.
Yeah.
Kaleem (16:44):
Alexandra.
Good work on that.
Good
Iwo (16:46):
yes.
So, um, this is how we started.
And for the first, two and ahalf years, we've been going
through, a lot of, uh, I wouldsay different projects and
products that we built.
So we started with the remotefuture summit.
That was, before COVID that thelargest, virtual conference on
remote work.
(17:06):
Then we launched the remote haveacademy, which was again,
world's first certificationprogram for remote workers.
And then we launched, um themarketplace with remote and
hybrid work experts, forconsulting projects.
So there was like a lot of stuffthat we've been building.
(17:27):
But the common denominator waslike to enable both individuals,
teams and companies, to bebetter, um, in how they operate
in a distributed environment.
We'll be right back after thesewords.
2020 was no joke.
It changed the game foreveryone.
Workplace flexibility is nolonger a perk, but an
(17:50):
expectation.
In fact, a recent study showedthat a flexible schedule is more
important than salary.
Yeah, you heard that right?
Employees want choices overcash.
If you're a startup or a smallbusiness that doesn't have a
remote work strategy, stop whatyou're doing right now and
(18:11):
complete our free treeassessment at blendmeinc.
com.
Since 2013, BlendMe Inc.
Has been helping smallbusinesses improve the remote
employee experience.
Let's stay local, but competeglobal.
Visit us at blendmeinc.
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That's blendmeinc.
com.
(18:37):
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all freaking day.
Don't miss the deal of alifetime this President's Day at
(18:59):
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Savings like these should beunconstitutional.
Or maybe Come wash away yourtroubles here at Cooters Car
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We ain't no soap opry, butyou'll be singing high praises.
Hoo wee, Cooters! Or, here atBrooks Brothers Mortuary, we put
the fun in funeral.
Everyone is just dying to joinus.
(19:21):
Alright, well that's a bit much,but for you, I'll do it.
I'm Rick Haney, and if you're abusiness owner looking for a
creative voice in yourmarketing, look no further.
I'll tell your story the way youwant it told.
Follow along at RemotelyWeAreOneor visit my website at
rickhaney.
me for more information.
(19:44):
And now, back to the show.
Kaleem (19:45):
Wow.
So I met you from one of yourconferences and it was a great
conference.
Well organized.
Kudos to you.
Um, and then also the consultingprogram.
I joined that as well.
And it was pretty impressive.
The number of, people and thenumber of, Experts that you were
able to reach out to and connectwith and build a network of,
(20:09):
you're talking some of the topexperts in the world.
You were able to bring in toremote.
How, who are some, you know, ifit's possible, if it's all
right, what were some of thecompanies that you all kind of
worked with?
Um, and you know, do youremember any challenges that you
were able to help companieswith?
Iwo (20:30):
Oh, now you're opening up a question where I can be talking
for hours.
So I will try to keep it, uh,keep it short and still
interesting.
Kaleem (20:38):
maybe something that, um, maybe something that was a
little bit more surprising,like, you know, Hey, yeah, we've
worked with all these othercompanies, but this one case,
you know, maybe something thatyou're like most proud of, or
the thing was really surprising,you know,
Iwo (20:51):
Yeah.
So I think in general, so weworked like you mentioned in the
beginning with like the largestones like Walmart, Microsoft,
ING Bank.
But then we also worked withvarious startups, scale ups,
SMB.
So, we literally worked withtiniest and the largest and
everything in between, right?
(21:12):
So we had a full spectrum.
And I think one of the commondenominators, which was, uh, you
know, Surprise to me.
And it's the same case today isthat it's really hard to change
things as simple as that.
Kaleem (21:26):
Yes.
Iwo (21:29):
change is freaking tough.
Kaleem (21:31):
Yeah, really hard.
Organizational change is
Iwo (21:34):
yeah, organization, change is extremely hard, but also
changing work habits on theindividual level is also hard.
So it's kind of this.
You have this vision and youthink you can give tools and
frameworks and knowledge andsupport and basically
everything, and it will happen.
(21:55):
But then the reality catches onand you might be, you might be
finishing the project and belike, everything is done.
We like our, our consultantsdeliver training, build
processes, did good, didcoaching, like you have access
to all what you need.
And then you leave and things.
(22:16):
Are not going in the way they'resupposed to be right.
And this is out of your control.
Like you did what you weresupposed to do.
The customer is happy.
And what to do with this next,right?
So this is this goes beyondremote hybrid distributed.
This is just a generalchallenge, right?
So that's why I was extremelyinterested.
(22:40):
When it's been already one and ahalf year ago when openly I
revealed, the ChatGPT, uh, threeat the time because they started
to see that.
Could be this power.
Um, that would turn the bestpractices that we've been
talking about, like as subjectmatter experts, and you've been
doing this as well on kind ofautopilot, right?
(23:02):
That it can really provide theongoing guidance and support to,
uh, to people.
because.
Before then it was tough, butkind of, coming back to the
initial question.
So the number one surprise thatthe change is hard.
And the second one is kind ofrelated to how companies saw
(23:23):
remote change remotedistributed, whatever, in 2020,
then in 2021, 2022, 2023.
And now I would say that we'restill in phases and they're
repeating.
So there's like remote is okay.
No remote is not okay.
Office remote is okay.
No remote is not okay.
Like when you're going back andforth, back and forth.
(23:44):
So I thought before.
Before COVID that's like onceyou join, like once you see that
this is the future, you're likeconsequently going step by step
to do it.
But right now I see that, it'snot the case.
And then companies cancompletely reverse, their
previous, previous policies andstance on this.
(24:04):
So that would be a surprise, uh,surprise number two, from last
couple of years.
Rick (24:10):
Well, very briefly about it just a moment ago, but I know
it's a huge part of everythingthat you're doing right now, so
can you talk a little bit moreabout the impact of AI that it's
having on remote work and whypeople need to embrace it
instead of fear it?
It feels like everyone's afraidof it.
Iwo (24:28):
Yeah.
Rick (24:28):
embracing it the way they should.
Iwo (24:30):
Oh yeah.
100%.
So, uh, probably we've all heardthis quote that AI won't replace
you.
AI, uh, it will replace peoplethat are not using AI.
So it will stay forever and itwill, change a lot of jobs.
It will also replace some of thejobs.
So we've been talking about reskilling and up skilling for
(24:52):
decades, but right now you'rehitting the wall in certain
areas.
You can hit the wall or you'rehitting if you're working in
customer success or recruitment.
I think those air based on thatlatest report by deal a few
months ago that you can alreadysee that the most layers are
happening in these two areas.
(25:13):
And
Kaleem (25:14):
Oh, like, well, hang on.
You're saying like, you'realready, we're already seeing
the impacts of AI on likecustomer support.
I mean, I think I can understandthat.
I have a question.
I can use an AI bot to help meget through my, my challenges.
And then what was the otherspace you said?
You said Interesting.
Interesting.
Iwo (25:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, it's already happening, justnot at the large scale, uh, yet
most companies are still, in thephase of like experimenting,
doing pilots, understanding howwe can really impact, what
they're doing.
And if you look at.
What is the number one actuallyquestion to you?
What is the number one challengefor organizations according to
(25:57):
Fortune 500 CEOs in 2024?
Number one challenge, a singleword.
You go.
Kaleem (26:03):
Oh, probably, probably AI, AI,
Iwo (26:07):
Okay, Rick.
Rick (26:09):
Um, I think I would have to say the same thing to be
truthful.
Iwo (26:13):
Okay, so you both are wrong.
And it's productivity.
Rick (26:17):
Wow.
Okay.
Iwo (26:17):
The number one challenge.
Yes, it's a report by Atlassian,released two months ago, how to
be more productive, right?
How to be more productive.
And, um, Like what you said istrue.
When you look at how you can fixthis.
And of course, like AI is thesolution or it can be one of the
solutions.
(26:38):
So if you look big picture, it'sno longer about remote hybrid
distributed.
It's no longer about office.
It's about totally redefininghow we're going to work and how
machines will either enhance orSome of knowledge workers and
for some you would need toredefine, your career, right?
And of course, as you can see,from previous, um, technological
(27:04):
changes on the market, it takesyears.
Sometimes it takes decades.
In this case, it would be ratheryears.
But the AA adoption will beaccelerating in a similar way
how the AI in general is gettingsmarter, right?
So, you're hitting this curveand it's like exponential
growth.
So if you're listening this, uh,today, and you're not using AI
(27:28):
daily with your tasks, startdoing this.
And my, the best advice that Ican give is to figure out
specific tasks.
You can use the framework calledjobs to be done where AI would
be helping you get this jobdone, like a mini workflow, mini
process where AI will be guidingyou, to make this a more
(27:49):
pleasant experience for you, orto make this happen faster or to
have a better quality.
Right.
But look for use cases.
Simple, small things, right?
Kaleem (28:00):
you're talking about AI remote work.
You also started the RemoteFirst Institute.
Um,
Iwo (28:07):
I like starting things.
Kaleem (28:09):
Yes, you do.
Yes, you do.
So you've been doing this for awhile.
Where do you think all of thisis heading?
Every, you know, guests we have,we try to talk about like where,
where they see these thingsheading.
But from your perspective, justknowing the things that you
have, have learned, especiallykind of being in that AI space,
you have kind of a little bitdifferent angle of, of where the
(28:33):
industry is going.
Like what is this impact ofremote work having on the
industry?
And where are we going?
You hear all of these differentthings like, Oh, we're going
into the office force return.
Then you see these officeoccupancy reports and they're
half empty of skyscrapers, emptyall over the world.
And it's not just the UnitedStates.
You have China with emptyskyscrapers as well.
(28:55):
And I'm sure you have somecities where you're at.
next?
Iwo.
Yeah.
Iwo (29:01):
That's a very good question.
And I don't know, honestly, Iwould love to say, yeah, this is
what, what will happen becauseComing back to what I said
previously, you have these likecycles where we think where
stuff is going, but then it'sgoing the other direction and in
six months, right.
But that was happening, beforewe knew that, uh, that AI is
(29:25):
going to be such a big thing.
I think this is the kind of,yes, last year companies were
already like talking about it,thinking about it.
But this year, this is like,okay.
Now we need to adjust ourstrategy because there is this
massive, massive, massivedisruption way larger than
remote like working fromanywhere, right?
That would impact us.
(29:46):
So I'm still going back andforth on the question of who is
dictating terms right now on themarket, if it's employees or
employers probably today formore and more positions, it's.
It's the employer, as an examplefor years, software engineers
(30:07):
were dictating all the terms.
I want to have everything times10.
Right.
And right now, if you look atthe market, just specifically
here, and of course they had theremote work option.
They can work anywhere,basically, any, anywhere,
anytime.
But then if you look at people,they're entering the job market,
(30:27):
today, and they would like to bea software engineer already, or
maybe they're already a postuniversity in that field, etc.
It's not easy to get a job ingeneral, right?
If you're a
Kaleem (30:38):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's hard.
Very difficult.
just getting a job.
Iwo (30:43):
Just getting a job, right?
So then if you again, zoom outand look at where we are going
office, not office, like it'sthe time of a lot of unknowns
and the things that we wouldsay, Yeah, this is certain, like
becoming software engineer andyou will have a very good
career.
You would say a year ago, twoyears ago, 100 percent right?
But Right now, it's no longerthe case, right?
(31:05):
A CEO of NVIDIA said that it'sbetter to learn agriculture than
computer science, which I agree.
So, um,
Kaleem (31:13):
Yeah, AI can write code.
I mean,
Iwo (31:15):
yeah, yeah, it can write code, it can do a lot of things.
So, um, and again, we are at thevery early days.
So if you tried, an AI tool andit didn't give you what you
wanted it, a either means thatyou prompted it wrong.
So you didn't give enoughcontext.
So it's your fault, or just thesystem is not good enough yet,
(31:37):
but it's today.
And it's basically becomingbetter and better.
Every, every day, every, everyweek, right
Kaleem (31:43):
So you're going to take a stance.
Is that what you're saying?
You're not even going to eatblock and bridge this question
this whole time.
You're like, ah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Nope.
Next question.
Did you just, you've beenwatching way too much American
politics and European politics.
You pulled a block and bridgebro.
You were just like, so you knowwhat I think the future, are we
even talking to Iwo right now?
(32:04):
Is this even Iwo This is it.
Iwo (32:07):
You don't know.
You don't know.
It's a very
Rick (32:09):
the children.
Kaleem (32:13):
No, you're absolutely right.
Like if things move so quickly,um, I swore probably in an, in
21, like, you know, of June of21, I was like, yo, the whole
world is going to stay remote.
Nobody is going like nocompany's ever going to want
people back.
Like I thought for sure it wasover.
(32:34):
Like the game was over.
I thought at that point and, Iwas 100 percent wrong and
you're, you throw in AI.
who knows?
Maybe we've returned to theoffice cause the AI needs our,
you know, bone marrow orsomething like that.
Like maybe we got to go, youknow what I'm saying?
Like they, maybe they figure outAI needs bone marrow to be more
human.
So we got to go into the officesto be freaking sucked of our
(32:55):
bone marrow.
Who knows, but you're
Rick (32:57):
Oh boy.
Kaleem (32:57):
you can't, tell.
I was watching some sci fi lastnight.
Rick (33:00):
I was gonna say, what have you been watching?
Yeah.
Kaleem (33:05):
Perfect.
Rick (33:07):
Iwo, this is my favorite part of the show.
Can you share with us, uh, acomical or inspiring moment you
have had while working remotely?
Kaleem (33:19):
1515
Iwo (33:19):
I, I, I had a, I had, I had a few, but one that really,
Stuck in my head was in theearly days, uh, oh, I didn't
mention Indonesia where we're inBali.
It was 2018.
We're actually at Lombok.
So another, another island.
And, at that time We wereraising our round, our pre seed.
(33:40):
I was the first and the last,then we almost died twice as a
company and then bootstrappedfor the last three, four years.
But at the time it was likeinvestors in the search, let's
do it.
And I was, um, I was, riding amotorcycle.
And we were about to get on theferry.
There are like hundreds oflocals around us with their
(34:01):
chickens and pigs and othermotorcycles, whatever.
And then this investor iscalling me and I'm like, should
I take it or not?
Should, and he's calling me onvideo as well.
And I'm like, okay, YOLO,whatever.
And then just, we did a call andthen just, we did a call and
there was a very, I would say, agood bonding experience because
(34:24):
we didn't just talk aboutbusiness.
So that was probably one of thefirst calls because it was in
the beginning of our traveling.
And I was like, Yeah, I wouldn'tbe pretending that I'm somewhere
else or I'm, I don't know, in acozy cafe, whatever.
I'm, I'm just here and this islike totally normal.
(34:45):
So, um, I think that was asmall.
Milestone to then how I operatedand had calls from really,
really weird and interestingplaces, but also with some
magical views on the nature, etcetera.
So, uh,
Kaleem (35:00):
Wait, hang on just to clarify.
you're riding on a motorcycle.
You're cruising this pigs andshit, cluckling all over the
place and chickens runningaround that just have a
cluckling.
Yeah.
And yeah, you, you can, Hey, youcan hear, you feel your cell
phone.
Do you pull over or are you justpulling some gangsta ass ish
(35:25):
where you're holding the cellphone up and riding the
motorcycle one handed need tounderstand
Iwo (35:32):
yeah, yeah.
So in general, I had this trickthat I was putting my phone in
my helmet.
So I didn't need to like holdit, right?
This is the something that Ilearned later when we lived in
Vietnam.
And this is Mike was my ongoingthing.
But at that time for thisparticular conversation, we were
boarding the ferry.
So we were like driving itslowly, but there was like a lot
(35:53):
of chaos around us.
Kaleem (35:55):
right.
Right.
Right.
So you're on the motorcyclegetting on the ferry.
Iwo (35:59):
Yes.
Like a very local, small ferrywas going between one Indonesian
island to another
Kaleem (36:05):
you're getting seasick.
You're getting seasick.
And so
Iwo (36:07):
Yeah.
Kaleem (36:08):
phone or did you go cameras off?
Iwo (36:10):
No, camera on, camera on.
No, no, no.
Because he went camera on.
So I'm like, okay, let's do it.
Rick (36:16):
my gosh.
Iwo (36:17):
talk serious business.
Kaleem (36:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I would love for you toinvest a couple hundred million
into my company.
Hang on.
Let me get this.
Check it out.
No worries.
Don't worry about him.
Just on a ferry.
That is that's out of curiosity.
Did you get the round?
Iwo (36:36):
With him.
Yeah, he, he, he got
Kaleem (36:38):
What?
Wow.
What a story, sir.
Rick (36:42):
Yes,
Kaleem (36:43):
round of applause.
Yes, that's impressive.
Wow.
Damn, I guess you wouldn't havetold the story if the dude was
like, nah,
Iwo (36:52):
I would.
I say
Rick (36:53):
passed.
Iwo (36:54):
I've failed so many times, but that was not this moment.
Rick (36:57):
Oh, good, good, good.
Kaleem (36:59):
one, man.
Rick (36:59):
So, uh, Iwo Szapar, where can our listeners and viewers
find you?
Iwo (37:04):
I think LinkedIn is the best place.
Let's connect there.
And if there's a anyway, how Ican help, I'm always more than
happy to do so.
Rick (37:12):
Well, you've definitely helped us by being on our show.
We appreciate all of yourinsights and your stories and
your experiences.
Man, oh man, thank you so much.
Iwo (37:21):
it was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much guys forhaving me.
Kaleem (37:24):
Awesome, man.
Come back anytime.
Peace.
where are you originally from?
Iwo (00:01):
from Poland,
Kaleem (00:02):
is there a city you represent?
All
Iwo (00:06):
I'm a seaside
Rick (00:07):
He ain't ever gonna pronounce that.
Kaleem (00:09):
right, let's try it.
Say it again, One more time, onemore time.
Dynxed.
Rick (00:20):
Nope.
This
Kaleem (00:25):
Oh, g'dynxed.
G'dynxed.
This is the best part of theshow.
He loves it.
You love you.
You do not.
You're going to play this overand over for your Polish, for
your Poland.
This is dumb motherfuckingAmerican.
Can't even get the shit.
Good.
(00:48):
Thanks.
Poland.
Let's go, baby.
Let's go.
Rick (00:57):
Welcome back, everyone, to Remotely One.
I am your host, Rick Haney,joined by my esteemed colleague,
Kaleem Clarkson.
What's going on, brother?
Kaleem (01:06):
I just love to fly.
I love to fly.
Rick (01:09):
an eagle.
Hey, everybody.
It's good to be back in thebooth.
My brother from another mother.
Hey, since you know how to findus, do us a huge favor.
Go to ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotely oneand leave us a review.
Not a big deal.
Won't take more than fiveseconds of your life.
Again, rate this podcast dot comforward slash RemotelyOne, and
(01:32):
we would be ever so grateful.
Since 2015, RemotelyOne is oneof the largest communities of
remote work professionals, withover 2, 500 Slack members and 4,
000 email subscribers.
That's huge.
Kaleem (01:46):
Mm.
Rick (01:47):
those are good numbers.
I like that.
It's free to join.
So go check it out atremotelyone.
com and with that stuff out ofthe way, Kaleem, please, if you
would, give us a tease or twoabout today's special guest.
Kaleem (02:00):
Mm.
Mm.
You know what,
Rick (02:02):
the zone, folks.
He's in the zone.
Kaleem (02:04):
Ooh, Ooh.
I put my shirt on.
I put my podcast shirt on withthe colors.
So, you know, just shiningbright for today's guests
because today's guest is cool asish.
Today's guest still love lovesthe frosted tip hairstyle, still
looking great.
I mean, our guest today is Ish.
I don't want to say it atrendsetter.
(02:26):
I guess today's a trendsetter,Rick.
they are originally from Poland,Rick.
I guess today's originally fromPoland and danxed.
Thanks.
Rick (02:34):
Oh, oh, oh, okay.
Kaleem (02:36):
Yep.
By the sea.
By the sea, dude.
Yep.
Rick (02:41):
I love, that's a great Polish accent by the way.
Kaleem (02:43):
Yes.
Yes.
Is it?
Yes,
Rick (02:48):
I am part of by the sea.
Kaleem (02:50):
by the sea by the sea.
All right.
Um, our guest is also acontributing writer for we
worked.
Rick, I guess today's also anArthur, bro.
They wrote books and author andauthor.
Yes, a Writer a writer of books.
(03:11):
It's good, too.
I got one.
I have a copy.
I should show everybody, but I'mnot going to.
It's awesome.
The book is called Remote workis the way.
Check it out.
I was very, very, very lucky toget an early copy.
So thank you.
He's helped over 3000 companies,Rick 3000 companies and has been
(03:35):
a remote work advisor for, Idon't know, ING bank, just a
little company, Walmart, just atiny business, Microsoft.
If you haven't heard of them.
Rick (03:46):
That's
Kaleem (03:47):
So again, Rick, although our guest is cool as ish, just
chilling.
I had to put on two shirtstoday.
I had to put on two shirts.
Rick (03:56):
That's big time.
I can feel the perspiration fromhere.
Kaleem (03:59):
These have pads in them, Rick, so I don't sweat through
them.
That's right.
I had to put it on because I'mso nervous.
Rick (04:06):
it's no wonder we're so successful.
Kaleem (04:11):
Rick.
Our guest is also the founder atthe Saudi AI leadership forum,
Rick (04:15):
Wow.
That's, a huge accomplishment.
Kaleem (04:18):
Yeah.
We got to talk about that.
Oh, something that we learnedabout our guest today is that
he's addicted to American andEuropean politics.
Just addicted to it.
He just keeps Googling it,watching it like it's a TV show.
I mean, I guess I understand.
I guess I understand.
I mean, we've seen some ish,
Rick (04:37):
It's the most entertaining shit in the world.
I mean, let's be honest.
Kaleem (04:41):
but he doesn't know why he keeps doing it to himself
because it is emotional.
It's an emotional investment.
It's like you're up and thenyou're down, you're up and down.
Um, Oh, He has called 15countries his home.
15 countries.
Yeah,
Rick (04:58):
So he's a world traveler.
Kaleem (04:59):
Right, right.
He loves dogs.
He loves Keanu Reeves and PointBreak.
Because he loves to surf.
And you know what I mean?
Like, he is, you know, he isliving the life.
Hang ten, baby.
Rick (05:13):
got more of the Patrick Swayze look to him though, I'll
give him
Kaleem (05:16):
yes.
What was Patrick's name in thatmovie?
Come on.
Oh, Brody.
Brody.
my gosh.
Rick, our guest is the CEO andco founder of Remote How, which
helps organizations make remoteand hybrid work work.
He's also the co founder andhead of remote at the Remote
First Institute.
(05:37):
Listeners and viewers, pleasegive a warm welcome to Iwo
szapar! Let's go, bro! Let'sthis! We're doing this! Finally
(05:59):
all studio audience settle down
Rick (06:02):
Take a pill, people.
Let's chill out.
Thank you.
Kaleem (06:06):
We finally got him on the show
Iwo (06:08):
guys, I need to say that that was A, the longest intro
I've ever had, but then the bestone as well.
So,
Rick (06:17):
Well, we had to tell your life story to make it, uh,
credible, if you
Kaleem (06:20):
Right, I mean we figure ten minutes of the intro and
like five minutes of the podcastthat's
Rick (06:26):
Yeah, yeah.
You know what's funny is that,Kaleem, you went out of your way
to say, Hey, don't mention yourname during the intro, and then
you mentioned his name.
So we'll have to cut that out.
Ha ha ha!
Iwo (06:39):
no, it's really, it's a, it's an honor to be here.
We finally make it happen.
So, uh, Really excited to behere.
Rick (06:47):
yeah, we're so happy that the stars have aligned and
you're able to meet with us.
So let's, let's dig right intothis thing,
Kaleem (06:54):
Audience, we've been trying to book Iwo for over a
year and a half.
Okay.
So if you want to get to him, ifyou want to get to him, y'all
need to get working now.
I suggest that.
I
Rick (07:04):
Yes.
He is that important.
Yes.
Iwo (07:09):
trying to, trying to optimize, you know, like after,
after having two burnouts, Ilearned that, you need to say no
more often.
You need to organize things in adifferent way.
But, I'm still learning.
I'm still learning, but, uh,It's, it's a pleasure that we
are here, so let's, let's havesome fun.
Rick (07:31):
Yes, man.
You know, I will say if youdon't start booking now, if you
don't book him soon, you'regoing to get the AI version.
So
Iwo (07:38):
yeah, yeah, for sure.
Rick (07:39):
to make that happen.
So, so Iwo, I mean, I'm, I'mfascinated by your history, but
the 15 countries thing, I mean,holy cow, what has it been like,
making that claim?
Like tell me some of the things,some of the places, your
experiences.
Kaleem (07:56):
Oh, first name him.
First name him.
Let's go.
You got, you got the list.
We know.
Yes.
Alphabetically, please.
Um, first name him.
Let's go.
I know
Iwo (08:06):
yeah, yeah.
So, so it all started when wemoved to US.
So we lived in Austin, one and ahalf year.
Then, uh, we moved to, uh, tomany countries in Asia.
So we lived in Vietnam, inCambodia, in Thailand, bit of
Hong Kong.
Then we went back to Europe,Poland, Portugal, Spain.
(08:29):
Then we went back to Asia.
We were in Vietnam for.
Over a year, almost one and ahalf year during COVID, then
came back.
Then, another place in Spain,again, Portugal, whatever it is,
Italy, Morocco, I don't know ifwe're at 15 or not, but, uh,
Columbia.
Yeah,
Kaleem (08:50):
I think you hit it.
You're close.
If 13 whatever, it's
Rick (08:53):
Right, right, right.
So were the, were these all bychoice or were you following
opportunities?
Iwo (08:59):
no, no choice.
So we, we, uh, so when we.
So the first one was theopportunity to be precise
because we I was working for acompany that offered me to
relocate from Europe to us.
So that was kind of like thestart of the journey.
But then when we started remotehow in late 2017, it was our
(09:20):
mission to empower everyone tohave the freedom of choice
where, where, when, where andwhen you work.
And obviously how you work.
And this is also how we, ranour, our company.
So we had a team that was spreadacross multiple time zones and
we were also able to live indifferent places.
(09:40):
So that was the starting point.
And then from there, it turnedinto the beginning that the
digital nomad thing in like2018, 19, 20, but then we kind
of got tired of like constantlymoving and changing places.
So, in March, 2020, we happenedto be in Vietnam.
And you know what happened inMarch 2020.
(10:03):
You may have have heard of thisthing called COVID.
Kaleem (10:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rick (10:08):
I vaguely remember
Iwo (10:10):
Vaguely.
Yeah.
So we were in Vietnam and March2020.
And then it kind of forced us tostay there for a longer time.
And then we decided to stay evenlonger.
And that was probably like oneof the best, Times we ever had
and I experienced somethingtotally different.
So, uh, Vietnam, big place in,in, in my heart.
Kaleem (10:30):
Iwo.
Iwo.
Quick question.
Like, this is before thepandemic where you decided, Hey,
Let's go somewhere else.
what was the thing that kind ofmade you decide, Hey, we want to
kind of be digital nomads.
Was there something just this,um, infatuation with just
travel?
Like, like what?
Iwo (10:50):
So I think, there were like multiple factors, starting from,
chasing the sun.
so that would be like numberone, then, uh, number two would
be, learning about othercultures and places in a
different way that you just liketravel for holidays for like a
week or two.
It's totally different thanbeing somewhere for a few weeks,
(11:11):
few months and living withlocals.
So I think that's that.
That's the second thing.
then obviously if you can be indifferent places, um, you can
also do different things on aday to day basis.
So it's not always the samesurroundings, not always the
same hobbies, not always thesame people.
(11:33):
I think.
Then another aspect is peoplewe've met literally, I would say
the, probably if I sit down andwrite it down thousands of
people throughout these yearsfrom different continents,
different cultures, differentbackgrounds.
and we've, with a lot of them,we, we keep in touch.
And I think this is a huge.
(11:54):
Enrichment to your perspectiveof the world as compared if you
were born in a single in aspecific country and you live
there for I'm not saying thatthis is good or bad.
I'm just saying that.
If you experience something likethis, you sometimes have a
different point of view.
so I think that was, somethingthat we maybe didn't,
(12:14):
understand, but we started toreally appreciate as we
experience it on a daily basis.
And then obviously as a, as awrap up, um, being able to work
in, in different locations,gives you, at least for us, it
was a happiness factor.
So it was, positively impactingthe wellbeing.
(12:36):
Of course there were ups anddowns like everywhere.
I, during the time I had toburnouts.
Uh, but that's more related tooverworking rather than just
like.
Changing places.
Rick (12:46):
Right.
Kaleem (12:47):
sun and perspectives.
I mean, those are the two thingsfor me.
I love chasing the sun.
It took me a second to, yeah, ittook me a second to connect what
you're saying.
I was like, Oh yeah, hell yeah.
Hell yeah.
I went, we, we know about no sunup there in Maine, dog.
There's no sun sometimes, youknow,
Rick (13:01):
why we both live in the south now.
Kaleem (13:04):
but yeah, that perspective, you know, it's,
you're right.
It, there is no right or wrongway.
If you grow up and stay in yourhometown, that's great.
I mean, that's how You knowcultures have grown over
centuries and that's fine buthow you talk about Connecting
and experiencing other thingsand just growing a different
(13:25):
perspective I hadn't reallythought too much about that when
it comes to traveling and you'reabsolutely right.
Iwo (13:32):
yeah.
And I think there is this, likehaving, discussed this topic
many times with my friends.
It's a lot of people dreamabout, Oh, I would love to be a
digital nomad.
Slow Matt.
This is kind of like thetransition that we also made to
like.
Be slower and being in a singleplace, et cetera, et cetera.
(13:54):
so there's a lot of talk, butthen especially before, before
COVID when remote work was notthat, big of a thing, it was a
lot of dreams, but it was hardto fulfill these dreams.
And it doesn't also mean that ifsomeone wanted to do something
that that was right for them.
They thought it would be so coolto be in Vietnam on the beach or
(14:16):
Philippines, whatever Thailand,right.
And have this photo and you'resaying like you're, when you're
lying down with your computerand like working, but then we
met a bunch of people thatactually did it.
It was.
In many cases, a risky move,they needed to sacrifice many
things, et cetera.
And they were like, nah, youknow what, actually, this is not
(14:38):
for me, but at least they tried.
So the majority were just liketalking and thinking, oh, it
would be so cool.
And in many cases, it turnedinto like complaining about
their own lives versus theothers that tried.
And then either they loved itand they're still on the road,
or the others are like, this isnot for me, but at least I
tried.
So now I know.
Rick (14:59):
Now they have the taste for it, so.
if you would, tell us about theorigins of Remote How, and what
was the motivation to start thatcompany?
Iwo (15:07):
Yeah.
So, um, at the time, kind oflike two things were going on in
my life.
So one on the professional side,I was trying to Talent in Austin
to join my team.
And it was really hard, becauseAustin was already a quite a
competitive, market for talent.
And at the same time, we had abunch of conversation in the
(15:29):
office with other millennials atthe time that it would be super
cool to be able to workremotely.
Which was then again, also oneof the, Motivations that I had
privately.
So I started to think like ifthere is a business case where
you can make businesses happierand people happier, by opening
up to, talent from anywhere, andthen also allowing your people
to, to work in different places.
Kaleem (15:49):
Iwo, what year is this roughly?
Wow.
So, so just to clarify.
So, everybody, he's having thisvision three years before the
pandemic.
Three years before.
So, he's like, you know, hey,wouldn't it be great if people
were happy at work?
Imagine that
Iwo (16:09):
that, like I had over like 40 calls with different HR and
like C level people.
and there are like basically twoconclusions.
Like one is that, Uh, no, thisis not for us.
We don't believe in this.
We prefer office, whatever.
And then the other group waysmaller was like, yeah, maybe,
but you know, we don't know howto do it.
Right.
(16:29):
So that's how remote, how it wasborn.
Now kudos to my wife.
There's she invented the name.
Rick (16:37):
Oh, good.
Kaleem (16:37):
Hey, shout out.
Shout out.
What's your name?
Let's give it.
Let's give her some
Iwo (16:41):
Hola.
Hola.
Kaleem (16:42):
Hola.
Iwo (16:43):
short.
Hola.
Yeah.
Kaleem (16:44):
Alexandra.
Good work on that.
Good
Iwo (16:46):
yes.
So, um, this is how we started.
And for the first, two and ahalf years, we've been going
through, a lot of, uh, I wouldsay different projects and
products that we built.
So we started with the remotefuture summit.
That was, before COVID that thelargest, virtual conference on
remote work.
(17:06):
Then we launched the remote haveacademy, which was again,
world's first certificationprogram for remote workers.
And then we launched, um themarketplace with remote and
hybrid work experts, forconsulting projects.
So there was like a lot of stuffthat we've been building.
(17:27):
But the common denominator waslike to enable both individuals,
teams and companies, to bebetter, um, in how they operate
in a distributed environment.
We'll be right back after thesewords.
2020 was no joke.
It changed the game foreveryone.
Workplace flexibility is nolonger a perk, but an
(17:50):
expectation.
In fact, a recent study showedthat a flexible schedule is more
important than salary.
Yeah, you heard that right?
Employees want choices overcash.
If you're a startup or a smallbusiness that doesn't have a
remote work strategy, stop whatyou're doing right now and
(18:11):
complete our free treeassessment at blendmeinc.
com.
Since 2013, BlendMe Inc.
Has been helping smallbusinesses improve the remote
employee experience.
Let's stay local, but competeglobal.
Visit us at blendmeinc.
com.
That's blendmeinc.
com.
(18:37):
Ever wonder how certain adscatch your attention or get
stuck in your head?
It's because the person voicingit knows how to tell the story.
Maybe they're telling you tostumble over to Sullivan St.
Patrick's day for green beers,Irish car bombs, and con beef
all freaking day.
Don't miss the deal of alifetime this President's Day at
(18:59):
Callahan Ford.
Savings like these should beunconstitutional.
Or maybe Come wash away yourtroubles here at Cooters Car
Wash.
We ain't no soap opry, butyou'll be singing high praises.
Hoo wee, Cooters! Or, here atBrooks Brothers Mortuary, we put
the fun in funeral.
Everyone is just dying to joinus.
(19:21):
Alright, well that's a bit much,but for you, I'll do it.
I'm Rick Haney, and if you're abusiness owner looking for a
creative voice in yourmarketing, look no further.
I'll tell your story the way youwant it told.
Follow along at RemotelyWeAreOneor visit my website at
rickhaney.
me for more information.
(19:44):
And now, back to the show.
Kaleem (19:45):
Wow.
So I met you from one of yourconferences and it was a great
conference.
Well organized.
Kudos to you.
Um, and then also the consultingprogram.
I joined that as well.
And it was pretty impressive.
The number of, people and thenumber of, Experts that you were
able to reach out to and connectwith and build a network of,
(20:09):
you're talking some of the topexperts in the world.
You were able to bring in toremote.
How, who are some, you know, ifit's possible, if it's all
right, what were some of thecompanies that you all kind of
worked with?
Um, and you know, do youremember any challenges that you
were able to help companieswith?
Iwo (20:30):
Oh, now you're opening up a question where I can be talking
for hours.
So I will try to keep it, uh,keep it short and still
interesting.
Kaleem (20:38):
maybe something that, um, maybe something that was a
little bit more surprising,like, you know, Hey, yeah, we've
worked with all these othercompanies, but this one case,
you know, maybe something thatyou're like most proud of, or
the thing was really surprising,you know,
Iwo (20:51):
Yeah.
So I think in general, so weworked like you mentioned in the
beginning with like the largestones like Walmart, Microsoft,
ING Bank.
But then we also worked withvarious startups, scale ups,
SMB.
So, we literally worked withtiniest and the largest and
everything in between, right?
(21:12):
So we had a full spectrum.
And I think one of the commondenominators, which was, uh, you
know, Surprise to me.
And it's the same case today isthat it's really hard to change
things as simple as that.
Kaleem (21:26):
Yes.
Iwo (21:29):
change is freaking tough.
Kaleem (21:31):
Yeah, really hard.
Organizational change is
Iwo (21:34):
yeah, organization, change is extremely hard, but also
changing work habits on theindividual level is also hard.
So it's kind of this.
You have this vision and youthink you can give tools and
frameworks and knowledge andsupport and basically
everything, and it will happen.
(21:55):
But then the reality catches onand you might be, you might be
finishing the project and belike, everything is done.
We like our, our consultantsdeliver training, build
processes, did good, didcoaching, like you have access
to all what you need.
And then you leave and things.
(22:16):
Are not going in the way they'resupposed to be right.
And this is out of your control.
Like you did what you weresupposed to do.
The customer is happy.
And what to do with this next,right?
So this is this goes beyondremote hybrid distributed.
This is just a generalchallenge, right?
So that's why I was extremelyinterested.
(22:40):
When it's been already one and ahalf year ago when openly I
revealed, the ChatGPT, uh, threeat the time because they started
to see that.
Could be this power.
Um, that would turn the bestpractices that we've been
talking about, like as subjectmatter experts, and you've been
doing this as well on kind ofautopilot, right?
(23:02):
That it can really provide theongoing guidance and support to,
uh, to people.
because.
Before then it was tough, butkind of, coming back to the
initial question.
So the number one surprise thatthe change is hard.
And the second one is kind ofrelated to how companies saw
(23:23):
remote change remotedistributed, whatever, in 2020,
then in 2021, 2022, 2023.
And now I would say that we'restill in phases and they're
repeating.
So there's like remote is okay.
No remote is not okay.
Office remote is okay.
No remote is not okay.
Like when you're going back andforth, back and forth.
(23:44):
So I thought before.
Before COVID that's like onceyou join, like once you see that
this is the future, you're likeconsequently going step by step
to do it.
But right now I see that, it'snot the case.
And then companies cancompletely reverse, their
previous, previous policies andstance on this.
(24:04):
So that would be a surprise, uh,surprise number two, from last
couple of years.
Rick (24:10):
Well, very briefly about it just a moment ago, but I know
it's a huge part of everythingthat you're doing right now, so
can you talk a little bit moreabout the impact of AI that it's
having on remote work and whypeople need to embrace it
instead of fear it?
It feels like everyone's afraidof it.
Iwo (24:28):
Yeah.
Rick (24:28):
embracing it the way they should.
Iwo (24:30):
Oh yeah.
100%.
So, uh, probably we've all heardthis quote that AI won't replace
you.
AI, uh, it will replace peoplethat are not using AI.
So it will stay forever and itwill, change a lot of jobs.
It will also replace some of thejobs.
So we've been talking about reskilling and up skilling for
(24:52):
decades, but right now you'rehitting the wall in certain
areas.
You can hit the wall or you'rehitting if you're working in
customer success or recruitment.
I think those air based on thatlatest report by deal a few
months ago that you can alreadysee that the most layers are
happening in these two areas.
(25:13):
And
Kaleem (25:14):
Oh, like, well, hang on.
You're saying like, you'realready, we're already seeing
the impacts of AI on likecustomer support.
I mean, I think I can understandthat.
I have a question.
I can use an AI bot to help meget through my, my challenges.
And then what was the otherspace you said?
You said Interesting.
Interesting.
Iwo (25:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, it's already happening, justnot at the large scale, uh, yet
most companies are still, in thephase of like experimenting,
doing pilots, understanding howwe can really impact, what
they're doing.
And if you look at.
What is the number one actuallyquestion to you?
What is the number one challengefor organizations according to
(25:57):
Fortune 500 CEOs in 2024?
Number one challenge, a singleword.
You go.
Kaleem (26:03):
Oh, probably, probably AI, AI,
Iwo (26:07):
Okay, Rick.
Rick (26:09):
Um, I think I would have to say the same thing to be
truthful.
Iwo (26:13):
Okay, so you both are wrong.
And it's productivity.
Rick (26:17):
Wow.
Okay.
Iwo (26:17):
The number one challenge.
Yes, it's a report by Atlassian,released two months ago, how to
be more productive, right?
How to be more productive.
And, um, Like what you said istrue.
When you look at how you can fixthis.
And of course, like AI is thesolution or it can be one of the
solutions.
(26:38):
So if you look big picture, it'sno longer about remote hybrid
distributed.
It's no longer about office.
It's about totally redefininghow we're going to work and how
machines will either enhance orSome of knowledge workers and
for some you would need toredefine, your career, right?
And of course, as you can see,from previous, um, technological
(27:04):
changes on the market, it takesyears.
Sometimes it takes decades.
In this case, it would be ratheryears.
But the AA adoption will beaccelerating in a similar way
how the AI in general is gettingsmarter, right?
So, you're hitting this curveand it's like exponential
growth.
So if you're listening this, uh,today, and you're not using AI
(27:28):
daily with your tasks, startdoing this.
And my, the best advice that Ican give is to figure out
specific tasks.
You can use the framework calledjobs to be done where AI would
be helping you get this jobdone, like a mini workflow, mini
process where AI will be guidingyou, to make this a more
(27:49):
pleasant experience for you, orto make this happen faster or to
have a better quality.
Right.
But look for use cases.
Simple, small things, right?
Kaleem (28:00):
you're talking about AI remote work.
You also started the RemoteFirst Institute.
Um,
Iwo (28:07):
I like starting things.
Kaleem (28:09):
Yes, you do.
Yes, you do.
So you've been doing this for awhile.
Where do you think all of thisis heading?
Every, you know, guests we have,we try to talk about like where,
where they see these thingsheading.
But from your perspective, justknowing the things that you
have, have learned, especiallykind of being in that AI space,
you have kind of a little bitdifferent angle of, of where the
(28:33):
industry is going.
Like what is this impact ofremote work having on the
industry?
And where are we going?
You hear all of these differentthings like, Oh, we're going
into the office force return.
Then you see these officeoccupancy reports and they're
half empty of skyscrapers, emptyall over the world.
And it's not just the UnitedStates.
You have China with emptyskyscrapers as well.
(28:55):
And I'm sure you have somecities where you're at.
next?
Iwo.
Yeah.
Iwo (29:01):
That's a very good question.
And I don't know, honestly, Iwould love to say, yeah, this is
what, what will happen becauseComing back to what I said
previously, you have these likecycles where we think where
stuff is going, but then it'sgoing the other direction and in
six months, right.
But that was happening, beforewe knew that, uh, that AI is
(29:25):
going to be such a big thing.
I think this is the kind of,yes, last year companies were
already like talking about it,thinking about it.
But this year, this is like,okay.
Now we need to adjust ourstrategy because there is this
massive, massive, massivedisruption way larger than
remote like working fromanywhere, right?
That would impact us.
(29:46):
So I'm still going back andforth on the question of who is
dictating terms right now on themarket, if it's employees or
employers probably today formore and more positions, it's.
It's the employer, as an examplefor years, software engineers
(30:07):
were dictating all the terms.
I want to have everything times10.
Right.
And right now, if you look atthe market, just specifically
here, and of course they had theremote work option.
They can work anywhere,basically, any, anywhere,
anytime.
But then if you look at people,they're entering the job market,
(30:27):
today, and they would like to bea software engineer already, or
maybe they're already a postuniversity in that field, etc.
It's not easy to get a job ingeneral, right?
If you're a
Kaleem (30:38):
Yes.
Yeah.
It's hard.
Very difficult.
just getting a job.
Iwo (30:43):
Just getting a job, right?
So then if you again, zoom outand look at where we are going
office, not office, like it'sthe time of a lot of unknowns
and the things that we wouldsay, Yeah, this is certain, like
becoming software engineer andyou will have a very good
career.
You would say a year ago, twoyears ago, 100 percent right?
But Right now, it's no longerthe case, right?
(31:05):
A CEO of NVIDIA said that it'sbetter to learn agriculture than
computer science, which I agree.
So, um,
Kaleem (31:13):
Yeah, AI can write code.
I mean,
Iwo (31:15):
yeah, yeah, it can write code, it can do a lot of things.
So, um, and again, we are at thevery early days.
So if you tried, an AI tool andit didn't give you what you
wanted it, a either means thatyou prompted it wrong.
So you didn't give enoughcontext.
So it's your fault, or just thesystem is not good enough yet,
(31:37):
but it's today.
And it's basically becomingbetter and better.
Every, every day, every, everyweek, right
Kaleem (31:43):
So you're going to take a stance.
Is that what you're saying?
You're not even going to eatblock and bridge this question
this whole time.
You're like, ah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Nope.
Next question.
Did you just, you've beenwatching way too much American
politics and European politics.
You pulled a block and bridgebro.
You were just like, so you knowwhat I think the future, are we
even talking to Iwo right now?
(32:04):
Is this even Iwo This is it.
Iwo (32:07):
You don't know.
You don't know.
It's a very
Rick (32:09):
the children.
Kaleem (32:13):
No, you're absolutely right.
Like if things move so quickly,um, I swore probably in an, in
21, like, you know, of June of21, I was like, yo, the whole
world is going to stay remote.
Nobody is going like nocompany's ever going to want
people back.
Like I thought for sure it wasover.
(32:34):
Like the game was over.
I thought at that point and, Iwas 100 percent wrong and
you're, you throw in AI.
who knows?
Maybe we've returned to theoffice cause the AI needs our,
you know, bone marrow orsomething like that.
Like maybe we got to go, youknow what I'm saying?
Like they, maybe they figure outAI needs bone marrow to be more
human.
So we got to go into the officesto be freaking sucked of our
(32:55):
bone marrow.
Who knows, but you're
Rick (32:57):
Oh boy.
Kaleem (32:57):
you can't, tell.
I was watching some sci fi lastnight.
Rick (33:00):
I was gonna say, what have you been watching?
Yeah.
Kaleem (33:05):
Perfect.
Rick (33:07):
Iwo, this is my favorite part of the show.
Can you share with us, uh, acomical or inspiring moment you
have had while working remotely?
Kaleem (33:19):
1515
Iwo (33:19):
I, I, I had a, I had, I had a few, but one that really,
Stuck in my head was in theearly days, uh, oh, I didn't
mention Indonesia where we're inBali.
It was 2018.
We're actually at Lombok.
So another, another island.
And, at that time We wereraising our round, our pre seed.
(33:40):
I was the first and the last,then we almost died twice as a
company and then bootstrappedfor the last three, four years.
But at the time it was likeinvestors in the search, let's
do it.
And I was, um, I was, riding amotorcycle.
And we were about to get on theferry.
There are like hundreds oflocals around us with their
(34:01):
chickens and pigs and othermotorcycles, whatever.
And then this investor iscalling me and I'm like, should
I take it or not?
Should, and he's calling me onvideo as well.
And I'm like, okay, YOLO,whatever.
And then just, we did a call andthen just, we did a call and
there was a very, I would say, agood bonding experience because
(34:24):
we didn't just talk aboutbusiness.
So that was probably one of thefirst calls because it was in
the beginning of our traveling.
And I was like, Yeah, I wouldn'tbe pretending that I'm somewhere
else or I'm, I don't know, in acozy cafe, whatever.
I'm, I'm just here and this islike totally normal.
(34:45):
So, um, I think that was asmall.
Milestone to then how I operatedand had calls from really,
really weird and interestingplaces, but also with some
magical views on the nature, etcetera.
So, uh,
Kaleem (35:00):
Wait, hang on just to clarify.
you're riding on a motorcycle.
You're cruising this pigs andshit, cluckling all over the
place and chickens runningaround that just have a
cluckling.
Yeah.
And yeah, you, you can, Hey, youcan hear, you feel your cell
phone.
Do you pull over or are you justpulling some gangsta ass ish
(35:25):
where you're holding the cellphone up and riding the
motorcycle one handed need tounderstand
Iwo (35:32):
yeah, yeah.
So in general, I had this trickthat I was putting my phone in
my helmet.
So I didn't need to like holdit, right?
This is the something that Ilearned later when we lived in
Vietnam.
And this is Mike was my ongoingthing.
But at that time for thisparticular conversation, we were
boarding the ferry.
So we were like driving itslowly, but there was like a lot
(35:53):
of chaos around us.
Kaleem (35:55):
right.
Right.
Right.
So you're on the motorcyclegetting on the ferry.
Iwo (35:59):
Yes.
Like a very local, small ferrywas going between one Indonesian
island to another
Kaleem (36:05):
you're getting seasick.
You're getting seasick.
And so
Iwo (36:07):
Yeah.
Kaleem (36:08):
phone or did you go cameras off?
Iwo (36:10):
No, camera on, camera on.
No, no, no.
Because he went camera on.
So I'm like, okay, let's do it.
Rick (36:16):
my gosh.
Iwo (36:17):
talk serious business.
Kaleem (36:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, I would love for you toinvest a couple hundred million
into my company.
Hang on.
Let me get this.
Check it out.
No worries.
Don't worry about him.
Just on a ferry.
That is that's out of curiosity.
Did you get the round?
Iwo (36:36):
With him.
Yeah, he, he, he got
Kaleem (36:38):
What?
Wow.
What a story, sir.
Rick (36:42):
Yes,
Kaleem (36:43):
round of applause.
Yes, that's impressive.
Wow.
Damn, I guess you wouldn't havetold the story if the dude was
like, nah,
Iwo (36:52):
I would.
I say
Rick (36:53):
passed.
Iwo (36:54):
I've failed so many times, but that was not this moment.
Rick (36:57):
Oh, good, good, good.
Kaleem (36:59):
one, man.
Rick (36:59):
So, uh, Iwo Szapar, where can our listeners and viewers
find you?
Iwo (37:04):
I think LinkedIn is the best place.
Let's connect there.
And if there's a anyway, how Ican help, I'm always more than
happy to do so.
Rick (37:12):
Well, you've definitely helped us by being on our show.
We appreciate all of yourinsights and your stories and
your experiences.
Man, oh man, thank you so much.
Iwo (37:21):
it was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much guys forhaving me.
Kaleem (37:24):
Awesome, man.
Come back anytime.
Peace.
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