October 2, 2024 • 46 mins
In this episode of the Remotely One podcast, co-hosts Rick Haney and Kaleem Clarkson sit down with Chicago-based entrepreneur Sam Rosen, co-founder of Deskpass, to explore his unconventional path to success and the future of coworking and flexible workspaces. Sam’s journey, full of twists and surprises, exemplifies resilience, innovation, and a sharp instinct for recognizing the shifting needs of the modern workforce.
Sam’s career didn’t follow a traditional route. His unique backstory as a "three-time college dropout" is a label he proudly embraces. Rather than viewing it as a setback, Sam sees it as an essential part of his identity as an entrepreneur. His success story proves that a college degree is not the only path to achievement—what really matters is passion, resilience, and adaptability.
Sam’s first major business venture was One Design Company, a digital design agency he founded from his spare bedroom in 2005. At a time when businesses were just beginning to navigate the digital space, Sam found himself in a unique position—acting as a translator between generations familiar with the internet and those who were not.
In 2008, Sam’s entrepreneurial instincts led him to co-found Chicago’s first coworking space, The Coop. At the time, the coworking movement was still in its infancy, with only about 300 spaces globally. His inspiration for The Coop came during a visit to Brooklyn, where he struggled to find reliable internet while working remotely from his girlfriend’s cramped apartment. After an unsuccessful attempt to work from a local café, Sam discovered coworking through a space called "The Change You Want to See." He was immediately drawn to the community-driven atmosphere and knew he wanted to bring this model back to Chicago.
As Sam’s career evolved, so did his business interests. By 2010, he had developed proprietary software to manage The Coop’s operations, including billing and scheduling. This software became the foundation for his next company, DeskTime, which he eventually sold. However, DeskTime was just a precursor to what would become his most successful venture to date: Deskpass.
Deskpass, the platform Sam currently helms, is designed to meet the growing demand for flexible workspaces. Remote and hybrid teams can use Deskpass to find coworking spaces across the globe, giving them the flexibility to work from various locations. Unlike traditional coworking companies like WeWork, which tie members to specific locations, Deskpass operates as a marketplace, offering a wide variety of workspaces without owning any real estate.
Today, Deskpass plays a pivotal role in the evolving landscape of remote work. The platform not only connects users with coworking spaces but also provides businesses with a way to offer remote and hybrid work options to their employees.
Sam’s story is a testament to the power of innovation, resilience, and the ability to forge one’s own path. His ventures—from One Design Company to Deskpass—highlight his forward-thinking approach to business and his deep understanding of the evolving needs of today’s workforce. As the world of work continues to shift, Sam remains at the forefront of the coworking and flexible workspace revolution, offering solutions that cater to both companies and individuals!
Learn more about Sam:
More about us:
- Remotely One’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/remotelyone
- Remotely One’s Webpage: https://w
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam (00:00):
I was a child actor.
(00:01):
Uh, I was, I was the
Kaleem (00:03):
Wait!
Sam (00:04):
spokesboy, spokesboy of, uh, it was a national campaign.
Uh, but uh, it was uh, But forlike three years I was the
(00:25):
national spokesman for OldCountry Buffet.
Um, so,
Rick (00:33):
can hear the fiddle in the background.
Sam (00:36):
My, um, my, my, my, my, my signature line was um, Imagine
this is a drumstick.
Uh, and it's don't be chicken totry this chicken Yeah
Kaleem (00:57):
Try this chicken!
Rick (00:59):
And don't forget to put the country crock on your
cornbread.
Kaleem (01:04):
this is the best thing I've ever heard!
Rick (01:12):
Welcome back everyone to Remotely One.
I am your co host Rick Haney,joined by my esteemed colleague
Kaleem Clarkson.
How you doing, buddy?
Oh, oh,
Kaleem (01:23):
sir.
Rick (01:23):
oh, you're working it today.
You're working it today.
Gettin up those salutations.
Kaleem (01:29):
an ab boob muscle.
Rick (01:32):
Well, you're normally sweating, but you're sweating
more than normal, so I, we gottaget you, check his papers.
Get the doctor in here.
Kaleem (01:38):
Shit.
Rick (01:40):
You got a pulse, that's all that matters.
Hey, everybody, listeners,viewers, since you know how to
find us, do us a huge favor, goto ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotely won.
And leave us a review.
Not a big deal.
We ain't asking for much.
Again, ratethispodcast.
com forward slash RemotelyOne.
If you could do that for us, wewould be ever so grateful.
(02:01):
Since 2015, RemotelyOne is oneof the largest communities of
professionals.
With over 3, 000 Slack membersand 5, 000 email subscribers.
Those are big numbers.
Five! Five! It's free to join.
So go ahead, check it out.
(02:21):
Remotely one.
com and with that out of theway, now that I finally stumbled
through all that nonsense.
Colleen, give us a tease or twoabout today's guest.
Kaleem (02:31):
Oh shit.
Rick (02:32):
off and give us a tease or two.
Yeah.
Kaleem (02:36):
Rick.
I'm so nervous.
I'm pouring sweat here.
Rick (02:40):
Did you wear your maxi armpit pads today?
Kaleem (02:42):
I did wear my maxi armpit pads and the shirt's
looking fresh.
It's a new Callaway shirt.
I'm feeling good about it.
But Rick, our guest today, Imean, I know you've seen that
Saturday night live skit.
Our guest today is originallyfrom Chicago, sir.
From Chicago.
You remember that skit?
Rick (03:00):
Bill Swerski.
Kaleem (03:05):
it's currently still a resident.
Still a resident.
Um, listen, this part, our guestis actually extremely proud of
this.
So people out there, there'shope for you.
Our guests, they are an, uh,dose trace son.
(03:25):
Bonjour.
That was in French for all y'alldon't know.
He is a three time collegedropout, Rick, three times
college dropout.
He dropped out three
Rick (03:34):
He's gonna make us look good.
Stop repping him so
Kaleem (03:38):
I mean, you think so you think he's going to make us look
good until you hear some of thisshit in 2005, born out of his
spare bedroom.
They founded.
One design company, which is adigital design company that they
still run and advise afternearly 20 years.
Rick (03:54):
Wow, that's big.
That's huge.
Kaleem (03:56):
In 2008, they opened the first coworking space in Chicago
called the coop.
So we got to talk about that,which they exited in Seoul 2008.
Coworking Rick,
Rick (04:08):
wow.
Wow.
Kaleem (04:10):
crazy.
Something most people don't knowabout our guest, Rick, is that
they were a child actor andspokesperson for Old Country
Buffet.
Ricky
Rick (04:27):
Were you on Webster?
Kaleem (04:28):
Schroeder! Unbelievable.
Old country buffet.
We got to talk about that.
Then iN 2010, they turned thesoftware that they used to
manage the previous coworkingspace into their own software
company called desk time, whichthey again, exited and sold.
Now we're at the two companiesthey've exited and
Rick (04:50):
Wow.
Okay.
Kaleem (04:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So much for college, bro.
So much for college.
I mean, three times off allshit.
Yeah.
Rick (04:56):
needs you?
Kaleem (04:57):
Um, our guest today is the co founder and CEO of
DeskPass, which provides remoteand hybrid teams an opportunity
to find additional meetingspaces around the world.
Rick (05:13):
Hmm.
Kaleem (05:14):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Listeners and viewers, pleasegive a warm welcome to Sam
Rick (05:24):
Oh, yeah.
Kaleem (05:27):
Roses!
Rick (05:35):
All right,
Sam (05:35):
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
Rick (05:40):
earlier
Sam (05:42):
That was, that was really something.
Wow.
Rick (05:45):
Coach had to throw him an extra towel.
Kaleem (05:47):
Coach, get me in the game, coach, get me in the game!
Rick (05:50):
Look at this guy
Sam (05:52):
always wanted an intro like that.
That's amazing.
Thank you.
Kaleem (05:56):
Oh, bro, thank, thank, you, bro.
Thank you Thank you for beinghere, man.
Rick (06:02):
yeah, no
Sam (06:03):
I'm so stoked to be here.
Thank you.
Rick (06:06):
Yeah, so I mean You've got a lot going on.
You're a busy guy.
You've done a lot of stuff.
And yeah, I mean, especially inthis business, I mean, going
back to 2005, you know, I wantto talk about the evolution of
desk pass and all that, but wayback in 2005, like, Where was it
(06:26):
that you saw this opportunityfor a company like this?
And what was it like kind ofnavigating those waters with all
of the chaos that wassurrounding places like, well,
especially we work.
Sam (06:38):
Yeah, I mean, man, it's a long story.
How, how much time do we haveRick?
Kaleem (06:45):
have plenty of time, man.
That's what we hear for you,baby.
We here for
Rick (06:48):
brother.
That's why we're
Sam (06:49):
No, man.
I mean, I think it's all beenreally intuitive and sort of my
little career and path just tokind of observe and, see what
seems like an obvious massiveopportunity.
It just has taken a lot longerthan, uh, to get, to get here
than, than anyone could havepossibly expected.
(07:11):
So I don't know, in 2005, Iopened an agency, which was, you
know, like a design firm, and Idid that like just out of my
house.
Because that's what I was, youknow, like I, I grew up in this
place where like everyoneyounger than me grew up with the
internet and a phone and like,and everyone older than me
didn't.
And I think like my first jobwas, has always been like a
(07:32):
translator between people whogrew up like in a digital world
and those who didn't, and thathas sort of evolved to the
office and the workspace.
I think is a very intuitive,like, makes sense organic path,
but it's just a 20 year path.
Rick (07:53):
Hmm.
Kaleem (07:54):
Interesting.
So we need to talk about this.
We talked about it a little bitin the pre show and I asked you.
You know, where you went toschool and you're like, I'm a
three time called the dropout.
I was like, is it okay if we sayit?
He's like, yeah, I'm proud ofthat.
Like, so for all the people whohave had roadblocks in their
way, right.
Society has talked aboutpushing, you must go to college
(08:15):
to be successful for a longtime.
Can you just talk about.
You know, first, what was yourfirst dropout?
Like, and then what was yoursecond one?
Like, and then what was yourthird one?
Like, and then how did you comeback from that?
So would you mind just kind of
Sam (08:29):
Yeah, of course, man.
Yeah, I love, talking about thisstuff.
I mean, it's a little hyperbolicand dramatic, like the three
dropouts, but you know, like tome, I've been making shit, for
my whole life.
I've been entrepreneurial mywhole life.
I've been building things,selling things, you know, trying
to hustle, like, really since Iwas a little kid, and I think
(08:51):
that's just a byproduct of who Iam and where I'm from, and
again, like, The opportunitiesthat I've been fortunate enough
to have.
But I've always been a realshitty student.
Like real bad.
Um, I,
Kaleem (09:04):
I can trust us, bro.
Ricky and I, I don't think wewere on the honor roll back in
school.
Rick (09:09):
Never.
Sam (09:11):
know, I like to learn.
There's nothing more that I lovelearning, but it's just like how
you learn, you know?
I had work and jobs all throughhigh school and out of high
school.
And I did what, you know, Ithought I was supposed to do,
which was go to school.
I wanted to go to art school.
I really wanted to be inadvertising.
And I wanted to go to what wasone of the best art schools in
(09:33):
the country, which was an artcenter, a college of design in
Pasadena, California.
But my grades were real bad.
So I like, I applied.
That's it.
And uh, I got handed a rejectionletter because I feel like I put
on a good show.
And they were like, dude comeback.
Like, prove you can get somegood grades.
And then once you prove you canget some good grades, come back
(09:54):
and try it again.
So I went to school in Chicagoto try to do that.
And that ultimately got me to goto Art Center.
But when I got there, I just,for me personally, Sam, like,
I've made money learning thingslike most of my adult life and
before that.
So this like paradigm of havingto go to school.
(10:14):
To spend a lot of money to learnversus like just being in the
trenches and trying to likefigure stuff out, like just made
more sense for me and was alwaysintuitive.
And I'm fortunate enough, likemy parents were like, you don't
have to go.
Like you have to be happy.
That's all that matters.
And it's, there's no nice Jewishboy.
Like, you know, it's not likeyou don't have to be a lawyer
(10:35):
and a doctor.
They're like, just don't be alawyer, doctor, like be happy.
And, uh, so I've had.
A lot of privilege to be able todo that.
But college wasn't like artschool wasn't for me.
And I dropped out and startedone design, which is this
agency.
And then I tried again to likego into photography.
Cause I'm like, well, maybe Ineed to learn a craft, like a
trade craft.
(10:55):
And a school's a really goodplace to do that.
And it was like real quick thatI was like, no, I'm just going
to keep doing this.
And I feel like I've been incollege for 20 years.
I just feel like I just keepgoing.
I just feel like every businessendeavor, every kind of next
stage is like a new lesson oflearning.
New shit.
Rick (11:17):
Yeah, exactly.
I feel like that's kind of howthe creative mind works, right?
You're always looking, Iwouldn't call it shiny object
syndrome, but you're alwayslooking for different ways to do
the stuff that people arealready doing.
Sam (11:30):
Yeah.
Kaleem (11:30):
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Sam (11:32):
Yeah.
Everyone's different.
Like, no shit.
It's funny.
I got two little kids.
I'm like, I hope you don't go tocollege.
I hope you don't go to college,you know?
And it's like such a funnyparadigm compared to like, I
think the generation before us,I'm like, I hope you get real
good at chat GPT and like loveonline learning, but I don't
know if I a 50, 000 a yeareducation, like, I don't know,
man.
Kaleem (11:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm a huge supporter ofhigher ed.
I believe that, if you have theability to go to college, you
should, if it's affordable.
I feel like what you learn, inmy opinion, at college is not
necessarily the coursework, youknow, outside of doctors and
lawyers and things that, youknow, you need to, you know,
Sam (12:08):
sure.
Kaleem (12:10):
Especially if you're from a small town, like where
Rick and I are from, like,you're from Chicago, bro.
You're right there in one of themeccas of culture.
If you haven't been aroundculture, like where we're from
in Maine and you haven'texperienced these things,
basically college is likefiguring out how to live.
So I'm a huge proponent.
We're not saying don't go tocollege, but we are here to kind
of hype up.
(12:30):
If you don't, there are plentyof opportunities out there for
you.
It's not the end of the world.
pick your path
Rick (12:36):
yeah.
yeah.
So, I mean, you're talking aboutco working before anybody knew
about co working.
So, how did you learn about theconcept that, you know, the coop
and all that?
Sam (12:46):
yeah, man So I have had this agency and when we were
starting the agency We've alwaysbeen really remote because we
could right and I had agirlfriend the Chicago.
She moved to Brooklyn I wasgoing to Brooklyn every few
weeks and I was trying to runthis little agency out of her
agency Very shitty apartment.
She was super cool, but herapartment was not, it had like a
(13:09):
thin line of clothing.
She's like all over the ground.
She had roommates who werelovely, but it was a garden
apartment with very bad internetand very bad cell service, and
she would go to school, go towork, and I would try to like
run my little business.
Out of her apartment and we hadour biggest client of all time
and like in hindsight, you knowWe've had bigger now, but like
(13:31):
it was a big deal.
And I was leading the kickoffcall and I dropped the call like
five times and my colleague Mr.
Noah was like, bro can't dothat.
You gotta get your shittogether.
And I was like, okay, okay, I'mgonna, I'm gonna get my stuff
together.
So I went to, what I think anyreliable, like, you know,
(13:52):
millennial hipster would do.
So I went to the cafe down thestreet.
And the cafe was called theRabbit Hole.
And it was this awesome, greatname.
The story, the names in thesestories, I think is my favorite
part.
So I went down the Rabbit Hole,and I started working at this
cafe, which had Not much betterinternet and not much better
cell coverage and it was veryclear very early on they didn't
(14:15):
like bought me there Because Iwould sit there all day with my
laptop drink two coffees onebagel So it was like, uh, you
know, you can't use your laptopduring lunch and then it was
like Yeah, then it was like thepower stopped working and then
like poof the internet was gone.
I'm like guys I get the message.
I'm out of here.
(14:35):
And Noah was like, yo, have youever heard of coworking?
And I said what I think anybodyat that time would have said,
which is, and still some do,which is co what?
And he pointed me to a wiki, thecoworking wiki, which still
exists.
And, it was a list of coworkingspaces and there were about 300
(14:56):
in the whole world.
And one of course was inBrooklyn.
Cause And, that place was calledthe change you want to see,
which when I heard that, I waslike, that's a weird name.
And it was like a gallerynonprofit.
And I was like,
Kaleem (15:11):
okay, definitely definitely some hippie shit.
I get that
Sam (15:14):
there's some hippie shit for sure.
And I showed up one day,uncomfortable, like what am I
doing?
Where is it?
And I walked in this place andthe guy was like, Hey, You're
here for co working.
And I was like, it's like,welcome.
And there was a bunch of coolpeople around a table and he's
like, we got a few rules, berespectful, don't clog up our
(15:35):
bandwidth, downloading any pornor like, you know, videos and
shit.
And I was like, okay, I can, Ican do that.
And, if you have a good time,there's a little donation box at
the end and just like throw somemoney in the donation box.
And I was like, cool.
Kaleem (15:48):
bro.
It was free
Sam (15:49):
Yeah, man donation based and
Kaleem (15:51):
shit.
Sam (15:52):
Showed up and it solved my internet problem Solves my phone
problem, but the thing it didwhich I thought was like amazing
was it connected me with allthese really rad New Yorkers I
was used to my girlfriend andher crew and they but it was
like people in media and peoplein design and people in politics
and the guy next to me was likein media he worked or I forget
(16:14):
what, like current or somethinglike that.
And he was like, yo, there'sthis big musical festival, CMJ,
CMJ, in town this week, and hemade a list of like all the
shows that he could get me onthe list for.
And I was like, dude, coworkingis amazing.
Yeah, like day one, you knowwhat I mean?
And I was like, this is so cool.
(16:35):
Who's doing this in Chicago?
And the answer was nobody in thewiki.
There was like, uh, a bunch ofpeople who wanted to, and
they're actually really coolpeople that wanted to, but no
one had the venue.
So my partner, Pat and I kind ofright place.
Right time had some extra space.
And we turn a space next to ouroffice into the first coworking
(16:56):
space in Chicago.
And like from then
Kaleem (17:00):
Unbelievable,
Rick (17:01):
Wow.
Good for you, man.
Kaleem (17:04):
man.
Good for you.
Sam (17:05):
right place, right time.
Rick (17:06):
Yeah.
Kaleem (17:07):
viewers Listeners, do you hear what we're talking
about?
Ready?
He opened the first co workingspace in Chicago.
I mean that, I mean, I wouldjust end it right there.
Sam (17:18):
Thank you.
This has been a great podcast.
I have a great.
Have a great night.
Rick (17:22):
You're like the Al Capone of co working spaces.
Kaleem (17:28):
Oh, Al Capone's from Chicago,
Sam (17:30):
that's a good reference.
Kaleem (17:32):
Rick.
That's why I am not as funny asyou
Rick (17:35):
Well, I was going to go with the Bill Swirsky, but
nobody knows really who BillSwirsky is.
Kaleem (17:43):
yes, we do.
Rick (17:44):
there goes my heart.
Must have been the sassage.
Kaleem (17:50):
Oh, Sam, one thing we didn't ask you, being from
Chicago, can I put mustard orketchup on my hot?
Sam (17:57):
Bro, you, you do you.
I'm not, uh, uh,
Kaleem (18:00):
No, No, If I, we're coming out to see you.
we're coming out to see you.
We're in public, right?
And all, all this people around,you know what I'm saying?
All your homeboys from back inthe day, I get a hot dog and I
reach for the mustard or theketchup.
Are you nudging me a little?
Are you nudging me?
Like,
Sam (18:15):
Look nah, man, you do you I would judge you but I wouldn't
call you out on it You know whatI mean?
Like I'm not gonna cancel youfor a little mustard My seven
year old son loves ketchup likewho
Kaleem (18:27):
Okay.
Rick (18:28):
what about, what about high end relish?
Sam (18:32):
Okay.
Well now I have an opinion
Rick (18:34):
Okay.
Like, it's so fancy.
You gotta call it
Sam (18:40):
I think you have a brand idea there
Kaleem (18:42):
That is fancy.
So so you build this coworkingspot, bro.
You're crushing it.
You're also running your digitalagency.
You know, building apps, I'massuming websites, different
things for people, digitalmarketing.
I think a lot of people who areon the show, we love bringing on
the show, like yourself thattalk about businesses that they
(19:03):
sold.
Because again, we're trying totell the stories of remote work.
And so many times people like,ah, in order for you to sell
your business, you need to havea traditional type business.
Right.
So what was it like?
To sell a business that wasbasically built around remote
work.
Like what, how did that comeabout?
Sam (19:25):
it was weird, man.
I mean, so like a coworkingbusiness is a really interesting
business to buy or sell, right?
Like I remember, so we got thecoworking space got bought by a
company out of Santa Cruz,California called next space.
And next space was one of likethe OG coworking brands.
(19:45):
And we became really friendlywith them.
And, The guy who's founder andCEO at the time, Jeremy Neuner,
they wanted to expand outside ofCalifornia and just kind of
right place, right time we gotconnected.
And it took a while and this waslike, so early when they're only
like, you know, a few thousandcoworking spaces.
And but I like remember the daythat Pat and I were in
(20:07):
California.
I hope Jeremy, I hope you'relistening to this, but if you
listen to this, you know, I loveyou, bro.
But it was like, you know, wedid.
Mr.
Jerry, um, when we like knewthey were going to buy it, they
agreed to the deal.
We were in California and wewent back to our hotel and we
were like, what the fuck justhappened?
(20:29):
Like, we're like thinking aboutwhat, like we have a lease, we
have a list of people.
Like a community we built andlike someone just paid us
hundreds of thousands, you know,agreed to pay us hundreds of
thousands of dollars for thisbusiness.
And it was just like such a,like a wild thing because at the
(20:50):
end of the day, like, you know,these are, you can get a lease,
you know, you can like, so likeit felt like we built something
really special and it felt likeReally amazing that somebody
else would come in and ascribeso much value to a community,
that we built.
So I, we were, we were justlike, did we just like pull one?
(21:12):
Like we couldn't believe thatthis happened when it actually
happened.
So, uh, it felt, felt good.
Rick (21:18):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Kaleem (21:20):
man.
Rick (21:20):
yeah.
No.
So, I mean, let's forward thebutton a little bit here to
2010.
Okay.
And, you know, you created asoftware for coworking spaces to
manage their.
To manage their software called,was it desk time?
Sam (21:34):
Yep.
Rick (21:35):
How did you go from a business that was strictly about
physical location to creating asoftware out of that?
How did that happen?
We'll be right back after thesewords.
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Or maybe Come wash away yourtroubles here at Cooter's Car
Wash.
We ain't no soap opery, butyou'll be singing high praises.
Hoo wee, Cooter's! Or Here atBrooks Brothers Mortuary, we put
the fun in funeral.
Everyone is just dying to joinus.
(23:27):
Alright, well that's a bit much,but for you, I'll do it.
I'm Rick Haney, and if you're abusiness owner looking for a
creative voice in yourmarketing, look no further.
I'll tell your story the way youwant it told.
Follow along at Remotely We AreOne, or visit my website at
rickhaney.
me for more information.
(23:49):
And now, back to the show.
Sam (23:51):
I mean, like I said, for me, my story is very organic and
intuitive.
You know, like I built softwarefor people, that's what the
agency did.
We did design and brand andbuilt technology.
And that's like my background.
My background is theintersection of like design.
And technology and that's mylens.
(24:12):
And it's funny now.
Cause in coworking and it's abunch of real estate bros, a lot
of real estate pros, a lot offinance pros.
Like, you know what I mean?
I'm not like, I'm not that guy.
I'm a designer kid.
And, I like to think abouthumans and like their
experiences.
And so I sort of through openingthe coop.
Back to my ass into commercialreal estate in the office.
(24:36):
And I think I just have adifferent lens than a lot of
other people where I was like,this doesn't make a lot of
sense.
Like you have these huge assets,like one of the biggest asset
classes in the world.
And most of the time it's empty,like even in the heyday of
office pre COVID, people are notin their seats all day long.
(24:56):
And people are not at the officeat all at night.
And it's just like, they'relike, our office is very least
inefficient.
And I was like, I don't know,like, um.
I don't think so.
So that was like the lens that Ialways brought.
And then we were building ourcoworking space.
So building software to manageit and to do the billing and the
scheduling, there wasn'tanything that really existed at
that time that we were into.
(25:18):
So we're like, let's build itfor ourselves.
And then when we built it forourselves, it was like, Huh,
like, can we sell this to otherpeople when other people buy
this?
And then it was like, can weoffer this to other people who
just have space and allow themto share?
Their space similarly to acorporate space.
And we were way, way, way, wayearly.
(25:39):
And that's one of my favoritebusiness lessons is like timing,
like that business wouldn't knowmight work now, but like, it
wasn't going to work then.
They're just, we're enoughcustomers.
All the customers were toofrugal and everything they
wanted was too complicated, youknow what I mean?
But like, it's part of thejourney of learning this stuff
and working through it.
So for me, it was just solving aproblem we had in a space that
(26:02):
seemed like an obviousopportunity.
Rick (26:04):
You realized you could scale it.
Sam (26:06):
we
Kaleem (26:06):
yeah, yeah, I thought we thought that could, but what I
love about the story and ifyou're out there and you're
building software and tech, it'ssimilar to the Slack story,
right?
Slack started from a gamedeveloper company and they
needed to communicateinternally.
You know, they made video games.
Right.
And they were like, Oh, we needto create this thing.
That's a little bit cleaner.
And then boom, it's slack.
Right.
So, your story didn't end likeslacks by any means, but
Rick (26:31):
Right.
Kaleem (26:32):
yet.
But then, so then how did youprogress to selling that
business again?
So they sold
Sam (26:36):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, that business was,Basically, in that business, we
talked to hundreds and hundredsand hundreds of spaces and
selling the co working softwarewas real hard, for lots of
reasons that we learned, but inthat process, we learned so much
like what people want wherethere is an opportunity.
(26:58):
The thing we learned was peopledon't need the software to run
the space.
They need butts in seats.
Especially like, when I openedthe coop, there were 300 spaces.
Now there's 40, 000.
Like, it is much, much morecompetitive.
So what people need help withis, How do I fill up this space?
And we started to really hearthat over and over again, which
(27:18):
is like, I don't need to help medo the billing, but if you can
help me to find some people tobill, like then we got ourselves
a business.
And so we started to buildaround that idea and we were
inspired by class pass, which,you know, is like a model in
gyms.
So we started to mess with deskpass.
And that was kind of the initialiterations of desk pass.
When we were.
(27:39):
Putting DustPass out into themarket, it became very clear
very quickly that it was a muchmore marketable, better business
for us.
And we decided it didn't makesense to do both at the same
time.
So we ended up finding one ofour customers.
That was really, that loved whatwe built and was really
(28:00):
interested in what we built andvery technical.
And worked out a deal where theybought the asset and then were
able to kind of grow it andcontinue to build it for a
while.
So it wasn't like a crazyoutcome through desk time, but
it allowed it to live, itallowed us to make a little
money, and really fund theDeskPass business, which is, you
know, what I'm still focused ontoday.
Rick (28:22):
Hmm.
Wow.
So Here we are and looking back,well, actually even back to as
far back as 2005 when youstarted One Design, what was the
biggest challenge back thencompared to some of the
challenges you're experiencingtoday?
Kaleem (28:36):
Working remotely.
That is, you know, like youstarted that you started working
remotely way back in 2005, youknow?
So like, what were those hugechallenges?
You kind of, you kind of talkeda little bit about it in the pre
Sam (28:47):
Yeah, totally.
Kaleem (28:48):
back then?
Sam (28:49):
I think for us, You know, Remote work has always been,
like, really intuitive to us.
And I always kind of, like, Ithink, I kind of conflate, like,
remote working and co workingand flexible working.
So, like, my angle on this isreally interesting.
Like, when we started the coopand we started co working,
People were like, didn't believein it.
(29:09):
It was like too nascent.
It was too early.
They didn't believe people couldwork this way at scale
effectively.
Like I remember trying to sellthis past to like a bunch of
lawyers before COVID and they'relike, no, we can't learn, we
can't work this way.
Like all our books are in theoffice and like, this is where
people go.
And this is where people learnculture and train and
(29:30):
apprentice.
Right.
And then it's like COVID hit.
Literally, three, four monthslater, these companies did not
have the technology, did nothave the culture, were not ready
for success, and they were Kindof like forced under the
crucible and like four monthslater, like, Oh, actually like
this works pretty good.
And also like, I don't likeschlepping an hour every day to
(29:53):
go to work.
For me, it's been this likereally funny thing where at the
beginning, it's like, no, thiswon't work.
People have to work in theoffice.
And then during COVID, when wewere trying to sell here, we're
like, well, why would peoplework anywhere other than home
now?
Because like, If I haveeverything at home, like, why
would I, work anywhere else?
(30:13):
And I'm like, well, this isoften me talking to like very
privileged, old rich white men.
And it's like, well, let me askyou a little bit about your home
officer.
And it's like, do you, you know,like have your own private
place?
Like, yeah, it's in thebasement.
I'm like, and I got my couch andmy TV.
I'm like, do you have kids?
No, they're all grown andthey're out in the door.
I'm like, okay, well, like, Youhave a good setup, but there's
(30:33):
an endless amount of people whoHave roommates, have kids, have
challenges and need other space.
So to me, it's been this likeinteresting trope and narrative
that has gone kind of back andforth from like, this is never
going to work to like, this isthe only way to work.
Nothing else is going to work.
And I think it's, what's reallyinteresting is like where we're
netting out, which makes mereally excited, which is like,
(30:57):
Kaleem, what's good for you?
Rick, what's good for you?
What's good for Sam?
It's different where we live,what we do, even like my job,
it's like some days coming tothis office and working from
here is great some days workingfrom where I live nearby is way
easier and better and moreconvenient.
It might be based on liketraffic or kids or like my mood
(31:18):
or like, do I need to focus?
So I think we're moving to thisworld where.
You get to choose, like you getto choose what works best for
you, and it's understood thatwhat works best for you isn't
gonna work best for everybodyelse.
And people are recognizing thisand companies are recognizing
like we need to support ourpeople and trust them.
(31:40):
So I don't know.
That's a little bit about thestory about remote, which I
think has been so fascinating inmy journey.
Rick (31:45):
Yeah.
That, that, that's great.
That's great.
Since we're on the subject andyou mentioned earlier, uh, we
talked a little bit aboutoffices being the least used
asset that you can purchase, andthat was even before the
pandemic.
How does DeskPass help alleviatethose costs?
Sam (32:01):
Yeah, so DustPass is a really cool solution.
And I think, again, like youtalk about the evolution of this
stuff, right?
It's the office, and then it'sco working.
V1 of co working are leases,right?
You go to a landlord, and yousay, I'm gonna take your space,
and I'm gonna sign a lease, andI'm gonna do arbitrage.
I can, I bet I can, if you'recharging me 20 bucks a square
(32:23):
feet, right?
I bet I can charge 40.
I build this community and dosomething cool.
And at the beginning of coworking like that is the only
deal that you could make becauselandlords weren't gonna like
they didn't believe in themodel.
They're too busy getting richthe old fashioned way.
Right?
And then over time, beforeCOVID, but this gets super
(32:44):
accelerated during COVID becauseyou see some really stellar
examples like we work in aTeide, Industrious, Regis, IWG,
landlords recognize, okay,having coworking, having
flexibility as part of mybuilding, as part of my
portfolio is actually reallyimportant to support my building
(33:04):
and the future of work.
So they start doing thesemanagement agreements, right?
They start saying, look, comein, I'll cover some of the
CapEx, like the front stuff.
And then, you know, you won'thave a traditional lease and
then we can share in the upsideand we can do this
collaborative.
And now you're seeing realestate companies like Tishman,
(33:25):
Spire and others, Heinz, thatare just saying, screw it.
Like we're actually going tobuild our own brand and our own
coworking and our, like our ownflexible workspace.
Kaleem (33:33):
Oh, wow.
Wow.
So you're saying some commercialrealtors
Sam (33:37):
because
Kaleem (33:39):
working because they're like, shit, what are we going to
do?
Sam (33:41):
like a tenant, like Facebook is coming in and saying
we used to take 50, 000 squarefeet.
We're going to take 30, but somedays we need 50 and we want to
be in buildings that can kind ofsupport us for that.
Right.
Or I have empty space.
There's all this empty officespace on the market and there's
going to be more and more.
It's harder than ever to sell afive year lease, a lot easier to
sell.
(34:02):
A day, a week, a month, a year.
So offering that flexibility islike a fundamental part of, I
think, how office and the officeindustry is thinking about
workspace.
So the point being withDeskPass, we are a marketplace.
We connect all of the differentcoworking spaces where we don't
(34:22):
own any of the spaces or operateany of the spaces.
We partner with them.
So instead of like atraditional, like I go to WeWork
and I just use WeWork, and Ihave a membership of WeWork.
We offer you access to thousandsand thousands of workspaces for
as little or as much time as youwant, which is like a different
paradigm of using this type ofspace, right?
Kaleem (34:41):
I just pay a membership to desk pass and then it allows
me to go into WeWork?
Or another spot or
Sam (34:46):
yeah, so it depends.
We have like kind of twoproducts.
One is just for individuals.
So I'm in New York and I'm in,you know, Flatiron and I need a
meeting on Thursday for eightpeople.
I can just go on there.
I can book it.
I can find it.
I can do it all through theplatform pay as you go, but more
and more what we sell and wherewe think a huge opportunities
(35:07):
are companies, right?
Companies that have all of asudden have remote employees,
all of a sudden have hybrid workpolicies.
And they're taking less officebecause their office is empty,
but they want to offer somethingmore than just the home.
So they can offer a, like, Youknow, branded solution of desk
pass.
So like good, our X is acustomer or like synchrony
(35:28):
financial.
So synchrony has a synchronybranded desk pass, and then
their employees get access toit.
And then they can use all of ourplat, our platform and spaces,
but the boss pays for it.
And then the boss can look andsee like.
Who used it, where they use it,when they used it
Kaleem (35:43):
How often
Sam (35:45):
yeah, set rules.
Kaleem (35:46):
it down, set rules.
Damn.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
I, so I wanted to ask you aquestion about commercial real
estate.
We were talking about that alittle bit and how it's
changing.
You know, we're seeing a lot ofreturn to offices by companies.
And what do you think is goingto happen to organizations that
(36:07):
are kind of not coming in linewith this new way of workplace
flexibility, like basicallysaying, no, we're going to make
sure everybody comes back to thespot.
If you were working remotely,you got two weeks to move, to
come to the office five days aweek.
Do you feel like workplaceflexibility?
Is going to stay and what'sgoing to happen to organizations
(36:28):
that don't provide that type offlexibility.
Sam (36:31):
They're gonna lose.
Um, I, I, I,
Rick (36:35):
Hmm.
Kaleem (36:36):
They just got to lose.
They're just going
Sam (36:38):
They're going to lose No man.
I mean, okay.
I think.
Two theories.
One is the office ain't goinganywhere.
Like, I don't believe like,there's no more office.
I don't believe companiesshouldn't have offices.
And when I say office, I meanlike HQ.
What I think our thesis is,office is an ecosystem.
HQ, it's going to get smaller.
(37:00):
It's going to be,
Kaleem (37:01):
Hmm.
Sam (37:02):
Why do we have this space downtown that people schlep to?
Is it for us to meet?
Is it us for a pitch?
Is it for us to innovate,inspire, whatever it might be?
And the spaces are going to getbetter.
They're going to get morespecialized, but they're going
to be smaller.
And they're going to be moreflexible.
And employees are going to havemore autonomy to work from
(37:22):
wherever they get to.
Work done that might be at homethat might be on desk pass that
might be at a cafe That might beat a co working space near their
house or near the office neartheir kids child's care so
office is going to evolve fromlike one to many it was easy in
the old days because Everyonecame to the office and that's
where we trained and fed andthat you know to like Everyone
(37:43):
gets their own flavor so I thinkgenerally speaking That is
what's going to happen longterm.
I think in terms of thecompanies that say, No, screw
that.
You're all coming to the office.
Five days a week.
Forever and ever.
Amen.
Again, I'm a designer.
I'm thinking about the humans.
It's like, okay, if I have a jobopportunity between two
(38:04):
companies, and one says, Bro,get your ass in the office every
day.
Same pedigree, same salary, sameeverything.
Another one says,
Kaleem (38:15):
a little less.
Sam (38:16):
Totally.
That is, I've read that.
I've read that.
No, but you know, and the othersays, I don't care where you
work.
Sometimes you have to come intothe office because we need you
here.
I don't know anybody who's like,no, I don't think anyone's
saying I've never come to theoffice again.
They're saying like, I don'twant to come to the office when
it doesn't make any sense for meto come to the office.
Right?
Like, I don't know.
Kaleem (38:34):
just gonna sit there.
Sam (38:35):
so I think that's what's going to happen in the most
talented people.
Kaleem (38:42):
Um, yeah, yeah, I got him, yeah.
Rick (38:44):
I was I was told that I could listen to the radio at a
reasonable volume, but it
Kaleem (38:50):
It's office space, folks, if you don't know what
we're talking about.
We're not being, we're not beingrude.
We're not making fun of anyone.
It's office space, the show.
Look it up,
Sam (38:58):
Look it up.
Rick (38:59):
red swingline stapler
Kaleem (39:01):
plain and simple.
I mean, it's plain
Sam (39:05):
No, that's a Agripo.
That's beautiful.
I love that reference.
Um, no, man.
Yeah.
I just think like you're goingto pick the company that cares
more about you, gives you moreflexibility.
I think there's ample evidenceof that.
And I think if you're a company,you want to hire the most
talented, best people, you'regoing to work at the companies
that offer remote work.
So like.
Kaleem (39:27):
Plain and simple.
Plain
Sam (39:29):
And, then there's like the argument that like, well, you
can't, I'm like, there are somany examples, like the fastest
growing, biggest, hottestcompany in the world right now,
NVIDIA, very remote.
At least like, there are so manygood examples of like the idea
that you can't do it is completebullshit.
It's, it just requires work andthoughtfulness and it's hard and
(39:52):
it doesn't, it's, it's, Yeah.
Leadership.
That's
Kaleem (39:58):
Who would have thought?
Who would have thought?
Thank you, Rick.
Awareness is, huh.
Who would have thought?
Just a little bit of
Rick (40:05):
we gotta freeze it up
Kaleem (40:06):
maybe a little feedback from the employees.
maybe maybe ask the employees alittle bit.
Rick (40:12):
Yeah.
Sam (40:13):
listen.
Rick (40:15):
So, Sam, Sam, Jesus, listen to me, I lost my place.
I think it Was the, uh, officereference that totally threw me
for a loop.
Sam (40:25):
I don't do that.
Kaleem (40:26):
on.
Did they ever make a sequel tothat?
Sam (40:28):
No.
Rick (40:28):
they did.
Kaleem (40:29):
Good.
Good.
for them.
Like, uh, I think
Sam (40:32):
a remote, uh, set
Kaleem (40:34):
Bro, shh! Stella, cut this out! We're gonna make it
Sam, we're gonna make the remoteversion of
Rick (40:42):
Yes, we are.
Sam (40:44):
Two.
Rick (40:47):
I was, I was told that I didn't have to be on camera for
this video meeting.
Kaleem (40:54):
Hey, yeah, I'm gonna need you to commute to The
Office.
That's four hours in traffic.
Cause I need a cup of coffee.
Okay.
Rick (41:06):
share with us a comical moment that you may have had
while working remotely.
Sam (41:11):
So, This was in, like, the heart of COVID.
And it's also funny because I'm,like, having all these,
Conversations with people thatare like, why wouldn't you work
remotely from your home for thefuture forever and ever and
ever?
And this, and I remember in ameeting that this happened.
And, uh, it was like the mostperfect example.
(41:33):
You know, I live in, um, In thesuburbs.
I have, you know, a little tooflat.
I got a nice little setup.
You know, we're lucky.
I got a basement setup.
My wife works at home like Iwork at home.
Got two little kids above.
Got a nice little setup.
Kaleem (41:48):
Okay.
Sam (41:50):
Close the door.
Lock the door.
I thought about like installinglike a little red light.
Like don't come in here when thered light's on, but haven't done
that.
Kaleem (41:56):
I've heard.
That's great.
Sam (41:57):
It's a good idea.
So, but, but just lock in thedoor.
So like, I'm like, I'm, I'm, Ican survive.
Sometimes I can hear like thepitter patter above me, right?
My damn kids.
That was a few years ago.
So they were like, I don't knowthree and six or three and five.
They figured out they figuredout a hack.
(42:19):
And this was the hack.
Which was, they couldcommunicate with me even though
I was in another room and theyfigured out the hack and it was
through the HVAC vents, so theywould start They would be like
Yeah, one day i'm like on a call
Rick (42:37):
heh
Sam (42:37):
it's like
Rick (42:38):
heh
Kaleem (42:39):
of them.
Sam (42:39):
I am proud of him.
I got my ass out of that office,but but yeah, it was like And
then I would start hearing coinsthey would like throw coins down
the fuck down the Like airconditioning vent to get my
attention But it was like, itwas like at the park, you know,
at the park, how they have thoselike tubes and you can talk to
(42:59):
somebody out like they like,we're like, Ooh, this is like a
tube to dad's office.
And it was like, it was like anintercom.
It was like paging, paging dad.
So, That was always, I'm like,so let's talk about your stuff.
Come and talk about my setup.
My HVAC pipe is plugged rightinto my kid's room, and they can
communicate to me whenever theywant, all day long, during all
(43:21):
my meetings, even with a lockeddoor.
Rick (43:23):
Oh wow.
Sam (43:24):
a hilarious, um,
Rick (43:26):
I mean, you gotta chalk that up to the brilliance of
children, right?
I mean, they're not as, they'reso smart! And, like, they think
in ways that we obviously oncedid, but we didn't realize it at
the time, right?
So you gotta embrace that shit.
You gotta
Kaleem (43:39):
Yeah.
Rick (43:40):
you
Sam (43:40):
I'm very proud of that.
I went back to co working.
but, but, went to Death passfound a nice space nearby.
But I was like, huh, didn'tthink of that one.
Rick (43:56):
man,
Kaleem (43:56):
I mean, were the things that they were saying, they
weren't like, they weren'tsaying horrible stuff while
you're on calls.
Nothing like that.
Okay.
Okay, cool dad
Sam (44:04):
yet.
Kaleem (44:04):
my pants.
You know what I mean?
Just saying horrible stuff, you
Sam (44:08):
No, not yet.
Not yet.
Kaleem (44:09):
yet.
Perfect.
Rick (44:11):
Awesome, awesome.
Hey, Sam, where can ourlisteners find you?
Sam (44:14):
Yeah.
So, I'm very accessible on theinternet, sam@sammyrosen.com.
That's my website.
That's my, my personal stuff,Sam, at desk pass, dot com.
Uh, you know, I'm on all theinternet, but, so yeah, there's
another Sam Rosen, he's far morefamous than me.
He is the broadcaster for theNew York Rangers and also like
(44:35):
the third tier, for announcerfor the Chicago bears.
I don't recommend, I don'trecommend having a, peer that is
a, named as you, that's abroadcaster.
Because every time I look myselfon the internet, half the people
are like, fuck you, Sam Rosen,you're the worst.
And the other half
Rick (44:51):
Swerski!
Sam (44:52):
Rosen is a golden God.
Uh,
Kaleem (44:56):
biracial golden God.
Rick (45:00):
That's
Sam (45:00):
but, so I'm not that Sam Rosen.
I'm the workspace Sam Rosenwith, with a, with a child
acting credit.
Rick (45:08):
I'm Old Country Buffet Sam
Sam (45:11):
Yeah.
That's my hand.
OCB Sam, Matt.
No, just kidding.
Rick (45:15):
We're done with OCB.
Kaleem (45:17):
Yeah.
You know me, you can't help it.
Rick (45:20):
Yeah,
Kaleem (45:21):
Well, Sam, thank you so much for joining us, man.
Really appreciate it, bro.
Rick (45:24):
has been a great conversation.
Come back anytime.
We've had a lot of laughs and weappreciate your sense of humor
and certainly tolerating ours.
So
Sam (45:32):
No man.
this is so fun.
You guys are a blast.
I appreciate the time.
Kaleem (45:36):
All right, man.
We'll talk to you all later,man.
Peace.
I was a child actor.
(00:01):
Uh, I was, I was the
Kaleem (00:03):
Wait!
Sam (00:04):
spokesboy, spokesboy of, uh, it was a national campaign.
Uh, but uh, it was uh, But forlike three years I was the
(00:25):
national spokesman for OldCountry Buffet.
Um, so,
Rick (00:33):
can hear the fiddle in the background.
Sam (00:36):
My, um, my, my, my, my, my signature line was um, Imagine
this is a drumstick.
Uh, and it's don't be chicken totry this chicken Yeah
Kaleem (00:57):
Try this chicken!
Rick (00:59):
And don't forget to put the country crock on your
cornbread.
Kaleem (01:04):
this is the best thing I've ever heard!
Rick (01:12):
Welcome back everyone to Remotely One.
I am your co host Rick Haney,joined by my esteemed colleague
Kaleem Clarkson.
How you doing, buddy?
Oh, oh,
Kaleem (01:23):
sir.
Rick (01:23):
oh, you're working it today.
You're working it today.
Gettin up those salutations.
Kaleem (01:29):
an ab boob muscle.
Rick (01:32):
Well, you're normally sweating, but you're sweating
more than normal, so I, we gottaget you, check his papers.
Get the doctor in here.
Kaleem (01:38):
Shit.
Rick (01:40):
You got a pulse, that's all that matters.
Hey, everybody, listeners,viewers, since you know how to
find us, do us a huge favor, goto ratethispodcast.
com forward slash remotely won.
And leave us a review.
Not a big deal.
We ain't asking for much.
Again, ratethispodcast.
com forward slash RemotelyOne.
If you could do that for us, wewould be ever so grateful.
(02:01):
Since 2015, RemotelyOne is oneof the largest communities of
professionals.
With over 3, 000 Slack membersand 5, 000 email subscribers.
Those are big numbers.
Five! Five! It's free to join.
So go ahead, check it out.
(02:21):
Remotely one.
com and with that out of theway, now that I finally stumbled
through all that nonsense.
Colleen, give us a tease or twoabout today's guest.
Kaleem (02:31):
Oh shit.
Rick (02:32):
off and give us a tease or two.
Yeah.
Kaleem (02:36):
Rick.
I'm so nervous.
I'm pouring sweat here.
Rick (02:40):
Did you wear your maxi armpit pads today?
Kaleem (02:42):
I did wear my maxi armpit pads and the shirt's
looking fresh.
It's a new Callaway shirt.
I'm feeling good about it.
But Rick, our guest today, Imean, I know you've seen that
Saturday night live skit.
Our guest today is originallyfrom Chicago, sir.
From Chicago.
You remember that skit?
Rick (03:00):
Bill Swerski.
Kaleem (03:05):
it's currently still a resident.
Still a resident.
Um, listen, this part, our guestis actually extremely proud of
this.
So people out there, there'shope for you.
Our guests, they are an, uh,dose trace son.
(03:25):
Bonjour.
That was in French for all y'alldon't know.
He is a three time collegedropout, Rick, three times
college dropout.
He dropped out three
Rick (03:34):
He's gonna make us look good.
Stop repping him so
Kaleem (03:38):
I mean, you think so you think he's going to make us look
good until you hear some of thisshit in 2005, born out of his
spare bedroom.
They founded.
One design company, which is adigital design company that they
still run and advise afternearly 20 years.
Rick (03:54):
Wow, that's big.
That's huge.
Kaleem (03:56):
In 2008, they opened the first coworking space in Chicago
called the coop.
So we got to talk about that,which they exited in Seoul 2008.
Coworking Rick,
Rick (04:08):
wow.
Wow.
Kaleem (04:10):
crazy.
Something most people don't knowabout our guest, Rick, is that
they were a child actor andspokesperson for Old Country
Buffet.
Ricky
Rick (04:27):
Were you on Webster?
Kaleem (04:28):
Schroeder! Unbelievable.
Old country buffet.
We got to talk about that.
Then iN 2010, they turned thesoftware that they used to
manage the previous coworkingspace into their own software
company called desk time, whichthey again, exited and sold.
Now we're at the two companiesthey've exited and
Rick (04:50):
Wow.
Okay.
Kaleem (04:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So much for college, bro.
So much for college.
I mean, three times off allshit.
Yeah.
Rick (04:56):
needs you?
Kaleem (04:57):
Um, our guest today is the co founder and CEO of
DeskPass, which provides remoteand hybrid teams an opportunity
to find additional meetingspaces around the world.
Rick (05:13):
Hmm.
Kaleem (05:14):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Listeners and viewers, pleasegive a warm welcome to Sam
Rick (05:24):
Oh, yeah.
Kaleem (05:27):
Roses!
Rick (05:35):
All right,
Sam (05:35):
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
Rick (05:40):
earlier
Sam (05:42):
That was, that was really something.
Wow.
Rick (05:45):
Coach had to throw him an extra towel.
Kaleem (05:47):
Coach, get me in the game, coach, get me in the game!
Rick (05:50):
Look at this guy
Sam (05:52):
always wanted an intro like that.
That's amazing.
Thank you.
Kaleem (05:56):
Oh, bro, thank, thank, you, bro.
Thank you Thank you for beinghere, man.
Rick (06:02):
yeah, no
Sam (06:03):
I'm so stoked to be here.
Thank you.
Rick (06:06):
Yeah, so I mean You've got a lot going on.
You're a busy guy.
You've done a lot of stuff.
And yeah, I mean, especially inthis business, I mean, going
back to 2005, you know, I wantto talk about the evolution of
desk pass and all that, but wayback in 2005, like, Where was it
(06:26):
that you saw this opportunityfor a company like this?
And what was it like kind ofnavigating those waters with all
of the chaos that wassurrounding places like, well,
especially we work.
Sam (06:38):
Yeah, I mean, man, it's a long story.
How, how much time do we haveRick?
Kaleem (06:45):
have plenty of time, man.
That's what we hear for you,baby.
We here for
Rick (06:48):
brother.
That's why we're
Sam (06:49):
No, man.
I mean, I think it's all beenreally intuitive and sort of my
little career and path just tokind of observe and, see what
seems like an obvious massiveopportunity.
It just has taken a lot longerthan, uh, to get, to get here
than, than anyone could havepossibly expected.
(07:11):
So I don't know, in 2005, Iopened an agency, which was, you
know, like a design firm, and Idid that like just out of my
house.
Because that's what I was, youknow, like I, I grew up in this
place where like everyoneyounger than me grew up with the
internet and a phone and like,and everyone older than me
didn't.
And I think like my first jobwas, has always been like a
(07:32):
translator between people whogrew up like in a digital world
and those who didn't, and thathas sort of evolved to the
office and the workspace.
I think is a very intuitive,like, makes sense organic path,
but it's just a 20 year path.
Rick (07:53):
Hmm.
Kaleem (07:54):
Interesting.
So we need to talk about this.
We talked about it a little bitin the pre show and I asked you.
You know, where you went toschool and you're like, I'm a
three time called the dropout.
I was like, is it okay if we sayit?
He's like, yeah, I'm proud ofthat.
Like, so for all the people whohave had roadblocks in their
way, right.
Society has talked aboutpushing, you must go to college
(08:15):
to be successful for a longtime.
Can you just talk about.
You know, first, what was yourfirst dropout?
Like, and then what was yoursecond one?
Like, and then what was yourthird one?
Like, and then how did you comeback from that?
So would you mind just kind of
Sam (08:29):
Yeah, of course, man.
Yeah, I love, talking about thisstuff.
I mean, it's a little hyperbolicand dramatic, like the three
dropouts, but you know, like tome, I've been making shit, for
my whole life.
I've been entrepreneurial mywhole life.
I've been building things,selling things, you know, trying
to hustle, like, really since Iwas a little kid, and I think
(08:51):
that's just a byproduct of who Iam and where I'm from, and
again, like, The opportunitiesthat I've been fortunate enough
to have.
But I've always been a realshitty student.
Like real bad.
Um, I,
Kaleem (09:04):
I can trust us, bro.
Ricky and I, I don't think wewere on the honor roll back in
school.
Rick (09:09):
Never.
Sam (09:11):
know, I like to learn.
There's nothing more that I lovelearning, but it's just like how
you learn, you know?
I had work and jobs all throughhigh school and out of high
school.
And I did what, you know, Ithought I was supposed to do,
which was go to school.
I wanted to go to art school.
I really wanted to be inadvertising.
And I wanted to go to what wasone of the best art schools in
(09:33):
the country, which was an artcenter, a college of design in
Pasadena, California.
But my grades were real bad.
So I like, I applied.
That's it.
And uh, I got handed a rejectionletter because I feel like I put
on a good show.
And they were like, dude comeback.
Like, prove you can get somegood grades.
And then once you prove you canget some good grades, come back
(09:54):
and try it again.
So I went to school in Chicagoto try to do that.
And that ultimately got me to goto Art Center.
But when I got there, I just,for me personally, Sam, like,
I've made money learning thingslike most of my adult life and
before that.
So this like paradigm of havingto go to school.
(10:14):
To spend a lot of money to learnversus like just being in the
trenches and trying to likefigure stuff out, like just made
more sense for me and was alwaysintuitive.
And I'm fortunate enough, likemy parents were like, you don't
have to go.
Like you have to be happy.
That's all that matters.
And it's, there's no nice Jewishboy.
Like, you know, it's not likeyou don't have to be a lawyer
(10:35):
and a doctor.
They're like, just don't be alawyer, doctor, like be happy.
And, uh, so I've had.
A lot of privilege to be able todo that.
But college wasn't like artschool wasn't for me.
And I dropped out and startedone design, which is this
agency.
And then I tried again to likego into photography.
Cause I'm like, well, maybe Ineed to learn a craft, like a
trade craft.
(10:55):
And a school's a really goodplace to do that.
And it was like real quick thatI was like, no, I'm just going
to keep doing this.
And I feel like I've been incollege for 20 years.
I just feel like I just keepgoing.
I just feel like every businessendeavor, every kind of next
stage is like a new lesson oflearning.
New shit.
Rick (11:17):
Yeah, exactly.
I feel like that's kind of howthe creative mind works, right?
You're always looking, Iwouldn't call it shiny object
syndrome, but you're alwayslooking for different ways to do
the stuff that people arealready doing.
Sam (11:30):
Yeah.
Kaleem (11:30):
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Sam (11:32):
Yeah.
Everyone's different.
Like, no shit.
It's funny.
I got two little kids.
I'm like, I hope you don't go tocollege.
I hope you don't go to college,you know?
And it's like such a funnyparadigm compared to like, I
think the generation before us,I'm like, I hope you get real
good at chat GPT and like loveonline learning, but I don't
know if I a 50, 000 a yeareducation, like, I don't know,
man.
Kaleem (11:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm a huge supporter ofhigher ed.
I believe that, if you have theability to go to college, you
should, if it's affordable.
I feel like what you learn, inmy opinion, at college is not
necessarily the coursework, youknow, outside of doctors and
lawyers and things that, youknow, you need to, you know,
Sam (12:08):
sure.
Kaleem (12:10):
Especially if you're from a small town, like where
Rick and I are from, like,you're from Chicago, bro.
You're right there in one of themeccas of culture.
If you haven't been aroundculture, like where we're from
in Maine and you haven'texperienced these things,
basically college is likefiguring out how to live.
So I'm a huge proponent.
We're not saying don't go tocollege, but we are here to kind
of hype up.
(12:30):
If you don't, there are plentyof opportunities out there for
you.
It's not the end of the world.
pick your path
Rick (12:36):
yeah.
yeah.
So, I mean, you're talking aboutco working before anybody knew
about co working.
So, how did you learn about theconcept that, you know, the coop
and all that?
Sam (12:46):
yeah, man So I have had this agency and when we were
starting the agency We've alwaysbeen really remote because we
could right and I had agirlfriend the Chicago.
She moved to Brooklyn I wasgoing to Brooklyn every few
weeks and I was trying to runthis little agency out of her
agency Very shitty apartment.
She was super cool, but herapartment was not, it had like a
(13:09):
thin line of clothing.
She's like all over the ground.
She had roommates who werelovely, but it was a garden
apartment with very bad internetand very bad cell service, and
she would go to school, go towork, and I would try to like
run my little business.
Out of her apartment and we hadour biggest client of all time
and like in hindsight, you knowWe've had bigger now, but like
(13:31):
it was a big deal.
And I was leading the kickoffcall and I dropped the call like
five times and my colleague Mr.
Noah was like, bro can't dothat.
You gotta get your shittogether.
And I was like, okay, okay, I'mgonna, I'm gonna get my stuff
together.
So I went to, what I think anyreliable, like, you know,
(13:52):
millennial hipster would do.
So I went to the cafe down thestreet.
And the cafe was called theRabbit Hole.
And it was this awesome, greatname.
The story, the names in thesestories, I think is my favorite
part.
So I went down the Rabbit Hole,and I started working at this
cafe, which had Not much betterinternet and not much better
cell coverage and it was veryclear very early on they didn't
(14:15):
like bought me there Because Iwould sit there all day with my
laptop drink two coffees onebagel So it was like, uh, you
know, you can't use your laptopduring lunch and then it was
like Yeah, then it was like thepower stopped working and then
like poof the internet was gone.
I'm like guys I get the message.
I'm out of here.
(14:35):
And Noah was like, yo, have youever heard of coworking?
And I said what I think anybodyat that time would have said,
which is, and still some do,which is co what?
And he pointed me to a wiki, thecoworking wiki, which still
exists.
And, it was a list of coworkingspaces and there were about 300
(14:56):
in the whole world.
And one of course was inBrooklyn.
Cause And, that place was calledthe change you want to see,
which when I heard that, I waslike, that's a weird name.
And it was like a gallerynonprofit.
And I was like,
Kaleem (15:11):
okay, definitely definitely some hippie shit.
I get that
Sam (15:14):
there's some hippie shit for sure.
And I showed up one day,uncomfortable, like what am I
doing?
Where is it?
And I walked in this place andthe guy was like, Hey, You're
here for co working.
And I was like, it's like,welcome.
And there was a bunch of coolpeople around a table and he's
like, we got a few rules, berespectful, don't clog up our
(15:35):
bandwidth, downloading any pornor like, you know, videos and
shit.
And I was like, okay, I can, Ican do that.
And, if you have a good time,there's a little donation box at
the end and just like throw somemoney in the donation box.
And I was like, cool.
Kaleem (15:48):
bro.
It was free
Sam (15:49):
Yeah, man donation based and
Kaleem (15:51):
shit.
Sam (15:52):
Showed up and it solved my internet problem Solves my phone
problem, but the thing it didwhich I thought was like amazing
was it connected me with allthese really rad New Yorkers I
was used to my girlfriend andher crew and they but it was
like people in media and peoplein design and people in politics
and the guy next to me was likein media he worked or I forget
(16:14):
what, like current or somethinglike that.
And he was like, yo, there'sthis big musical festival, CMJ,
CMJ, in town this week, and hemade a list of like all the
shows that he could get me onthe list for.
And I was like, dude, coworkingis amazing.
Yeah, like day one, you knowwhat I mean?
And I was like, this is so cool.
(16:35):
Who's doing this in Chicago?
And the answer was nobody in thewiki.
There was like, uh, a bunch ofpeople who wanted to, and
they're actually really coolpeople that wanted to, but no
one had the venue.
So my partner, Pat and I kind ofright place.
Right time had some extra space.
And we turn a space next to ouroffice into the first coworking
(16:56):
space in Chicago.
And like from then
Kaleem (17:00):
Unbelievable,
Rick (17:01):
Wow.
Good for you, man.
Kaleem (17:04):
man.
Good for you.
Sam (17:05):
right place, right time.
Rick (17:06):
Yeah.
Kaleem (17:07):
viewers Listeners, do you hear what we're talking
about?
Ready?
He opened the first co workingspace in Chicago.
I mean that, I mean, I wouldjust end it right there.
Sam (17:18):
Thank you.
This has been a great podcast.
I have a great.
Have a great night.
Rick (17:22):
You're like the Al Capone of co working spaces.
Kaleem (17:28):
Oh, Al Capone's from Chicago,
Sam (17:30):
that's a good reference.
Kaleem (17:32):
Rick.
That's why I am not as funny asyou
Rick (17:35):
Well, I was going to go with the Bill Swirsky, but
nobody knows really who BillSwirsky is.
Kaleem (17:43):
yes, we do.
Rick (17:44):
there goes my heart.
Must have been the sassage.
Kaleem (17:50):
Oh, Sam, one thing we didn't ask you, being from
Chicago, can I put mustard orketchup on my hot?
Sam (17:57):
Bro, you, you do you.
I'm not, uh, uh,
Kaleem (18:00):
No, No, If I, we're coming out to see you.
we're coming out to see you.
We're in public, right?
And all, all this people around,you know what I'm saying?
All your homeboys from back inthe day, I get a hot dog and I
reach for the mustard or theketchup.
Are you nudging me a little?
Are you nudging me?
Like,
Sam (18:15):
Look nah, man, you do you I would judge you but I wouldn't
call you out on it You know whatI mean?
Like I'm not gonna cancel youfor a little mustard My seven
year old son loves ketchup likewho
Kaleem (18:27):
Okay.
Rick (18:28):
what about, what about high end relish?
Sam (18:32):
Okay.
Well now I have an opinion
Rick (18:34):
Okay.
Like, it's so fancy.
You gotta call it
Sam (18:40):
I think you have a brand idea there
Kaleem (18:42):
That is fancy.
So so you build this coworkingspot, bro.
You're crushing it.
You're also running your digitalagency.
You know, building apps, I'massuming websites, different
things for people, digitalmarketing.
I think a lot of people who areon the show, we love bringing on
the show, like yourself thattalk about businesses that they
(19:03):
sold.
Because again, we're trying totell the stories of remote work.
And so many times people like,ah, in order for you to sell
your business, you need to havea traditional type business.
Right.
So what was it like?
To sell a business that wasbasically built around remote
work.
Like what, how did that comeabout?
Sam (19:25):
it was weird, man.
I mean, so like a coworkingbusiness is a really interesting
business to buy or sell, right?
Like I remember, so we got thecoworking space got bought by a
company out of Santa Cruz,California called next space.
And next space was one of likethe OG coworking brands.
(19:45):
And we became really friendlywith them.
And, The guy who's founder andCEO at the time, Jeremy Neuner,
they wanted to expand outside ofCalifornia and just kind of
right place, right time we gotconnected.
And it took a while and this waslike, so early when they're only
like, you know, a few thousandcoworking spaces.
And but I like remember the daythat Pat and I were in
(20:07):
California.
I hope Jeremy, I hope you'relistening to this, but if you
listen to this, you know, I loveyou, bro.
But it was like, you know, wedid.
Mr.
Jerry, um, when we like knewthey were going to buy it, they
agreed to the deal.
We were in California and wewent back to our hotel and we
were like, what the fuck justhappened?
(20:29):
Like, we're like thinking aboutwhat, like we have a lease, we
have a list of people.
Like a community we built andlike someone just paid us
hundreds of thousands, you know,agreed to pay us hundreds of
thousands of dollars for thisbusiness.
And it was just like such a,like a wild thing because at the
(20:50):
end of the day, like, you know,these are, you can get a lease,
you know, you can like, so likeit felt like we built something
really special and it felt likeReally amazing that somebody
else would come in and ascribeso much value to a community,
that we built.
So I, we were, we were justlike, did we just like pull one?
(21:12):
Like we couldn't believe thatthis happened when it actually
happened.
So, uh, it felt, felt good.
Rick (21:18):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Kaleem (21:20):
man.
Rick (21:20):
yeah.
No.
So, I mean, let's forward thebutton a little bit here to
2010.
Okay.
And, you know, you created asoftware for coworking spaces to
manage their.
To manage their software called,was it desk time?
Sam (21:34):
Yep.
Rick (21:35):
How did you go from a business that was strictly about
physical location to creating asoftware out of that?
How did that happen?
We'll be right back after thesewords.
2020 was no joke.
It changed the game foreveryone.
Workplace flexibility is nolonger a perk, but an
(21:56):
expectation.
In fact, a recent study showedthat a flexible schedule is more
important than salary.
Yeah, you heard that right?
Employees want choices overcash.
If you're a startup or a smallbusiness that doesn't have a
remote work strategy, stop whatyou're doing right now and
(22:17):
complete our free treeassessment at blendmeinc.
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Since 2013, BlendMe Inc.
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Let's stay local, but competeglobal.
Visit us at blendmeinc.
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That's blendmeinc.
com.
(22:43):
Ever wonder how certain adscatch your attention or get
stuck in your head?
It's because the person voicingit knows how to tell the story.
Maybe they're telling you tostumble over to Sullivan St.
Patrick's day for green beers,Irish car bombs, and corned
beef.
Oh.
Freakin day.
Or maybe Don't miss the deal ofa lifetime this President's Day
(23:05):
at Callahan Ford.
Savings like these should beunconstitutional.
Or maybe Come wash away yourtroubles here at Cooter's Car
Wash.
We ain't no soap opery, butyou'll be singing high praises.
Hoo wee, Cooter's! Or Here atBrooks Brothers Mortuary, we put
the fun in funeral.
Everyone is just dying to joinus.
(23:27):
Alright, well that's a bit much,but for you, I'll do it.
I'm Rick Haney, and if you're abusiness owner looking for a
creative voice in yourmarketing, look no further.
I'll tell your story the way youwant it told.
Follow along at Remotely We AreOne, or visit my website at
rickhaney.
me for more information.
(23:49):
And now, back to the show.
Sam (23:51):
I mean, like I said, for me, my story is very organic and
intuitive.
You know, like I built softwarefor people, that's what the
agency did.
We did design and brand andbuilt technology.
And that's like my background.
My background is theintersection of like design.
And technology and that's mylens.
(24:12):
And it's funny now.
Cause in coworking and it's abunch of real estate bros, a lot
of real estate pros, a lot offinance pros.
Like, you know what I mean?
I'm not like, I'm not that guy.
I'm a designer kid.
And, I like to think abouthumans and like their
experiences.
And so I sort of through openingthe coop.
Back to my ass into commercialreal estate in the office.
(24:36):
And I think I just have adifferent lens than a lot of
other people where I was like,this doesn't make a lot of
sense.
Like you have these huge assets,like one of the biggest asset
classes in the world.
And most of the time it's empty,like even in the heyday of
office pre COVID, people are notin their seats all day long.
(24:56):
And people are not at the officeat all at night.
And it's just like, they'relike, our office is very least
inefficient.
And I was like, I don't know,like, um.
I don't think so.
So that was like the lens that Ialways brought.
And then we were building ourcoworking space.
So building software to manageit and to do the billing and the
scheduling, there wasn'tanything that really existed at
that time that we were into.
(25:18):
So we're like, let's build itfor ourselves.
And then when we built it forourselves, it was like, Huh,
like, can we sell this to otherpeople when other people buy
this?
And then it was like, can weoffer this to other people who
just have space and allow themto share?
Their space similarly to acorporate space.
And we were way, way, way, wayearly.
(25:39):
And that's one of my favoritebusiness lessons is like timing,
like that business wouldn't knowmight work now, but like, it
wasn't going to work then.
They're just, we're enoughcustomers.
All the customers were toofrugal and everything they
wanted was too complicated, youknow what I mean?
But like, it's part of thejourney of learning this stuff
and working through it.
So for me, it was just solving aproblem we had in a space that
(26:02):
seemed like an obviousopportunity.
Rick (26:04):
You realized you could scale it.
Sam (26:06):
we
Kaleem (26:06):
yeah, yeah, I thought we thought that could, but what I
love about the story and ifyou're out there and you're
building software and tech, it'ssimilar to the Slack story,
right?
Slack started from a gamedeveloper company and they
needed to communicateinternally.
You know, they made video games.
Right.
And they were like, Oh, we needto create this thing.
That's a little bit cleaner.
And then boom, it's slack.
Right.
So, your story didn't end likeslacks by any means, but
Rick (26:31):
Right.
Kaleem (26:32):
yet.
But then, so then how did youprogress to selling that
business again?
So they sold
Sam (26:36):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, that business was,Basically, in that business, we
talked to hundreds and hundredsand hundreds of spaces and
selling the co working softwarewas real hard, for lots of
reasons that we learned, but inthat process, we learned so much
like what people want wherethere is an opportunity.
(26:58):
The thing we learned was peopledon't need the software to run
the space.
They need butts in seats.
Especially like, when I openedthe coop, there were 300 spaces.
Now there's 40, 000.
Like, it is much, much morecompetitive.
So what people need help withis, How do I fill up this space?
And we started to really hearthat over and over again, which
(27:18):
is like, I don't need to help medo the billing, but if you can
help me to find some people tobill, like then we got ourselves
a business.
And so we started to buildaround that idea and we were
inspired by class pass, which,you know, is like a model in
gyms.
So we started to mess with deskpass.
And that was kind of the initialiterations of desk pass.
When we were.
(27:39):
Putting DustPass out into themarket, it became very clear
very quickly that it was a muchmore marketable, better business
for us.
And we decided it didn't makesense to do both at the same
time.
So we ended up finding one ofour customers.
That was really, that loved whatwe built and was really
(28:00):
interested in what we built andvery technical.
And worked out a deal where theybought the asset and then were
able to kind of grow it andcontinue to build it for a
while.
So it wasn't like a crazyoutcome through desk time, but
it allowed it to live, itallowed us to make a little
money, and really fund theDeskPass business, which is, you
know, what I'm still focused ontoday.
Rick (28:22):
Hmm.
Wow.
So Here we are and looking back,well, actually even back to as
far back as 2005 when youstarted One Design, what was the
biggest challenge back thencompared to some of the
challenges you're experiencingtoday?
Kaleem (28:36):
Working remotely.
That is, you know, like youstarted that you started working
remotely way back in 2005, youknow?
So like, what were those hugechallenges?
You kind of, you kind of talkeda little bit about it in the pre
Sam (28:47):
Yeah, totally.
Kaleem (28:48):
back then?
Sam (28:49):
I think for us, You know, Remote work has always been,
like, really intuitive to us.
And I always kind of, like, Ithink, I kind of conflate, like,
remote working and co workingand flexible working.
So, like, my angle on this isreally interesting.
Like, when we started the coopand we started co working,
People were like, didn't believein it.
(29:09):
It was like too nascent.
It was too early.
They didn't believe people couldwork this way at scale
effectively.
Like I remember trying to sellthis past to like a bunch of
lawyers before COVID and they'relike, no, we can't learn, we
can't work this way.
Like all our books are in theoffice and like, this is where
people go.
And this is where people learnculture and train and
(29:30):
apprentice.
Right.
And then it's like COVID hit.
Literally, three, four monthslater, these companies did not
have the technology, did nothave the culture, were not ready
for success, and they were Kindof like forced under the
crucible and like four monthslater, like, Oh, actually like
this works pretty good.
And also like, I don't likeschlepping an hour every day to
(29:53):
go to work.
For me, it's been this likereally funny thing where at the
beginning, it's like, no, thiswon't work.
People have to work in theoffice.
And then during COVID, when wewere trying to sell here, we're
like, well, why would peoplework anywhere other than home
now?
Because like, If I haveeverything at home, like, why
would I, work anywhere else?
(30:13):
And I'm like, well, this isoften me talking to like very
privileged, old rich white men.
And it's like, well, let me askyou a little bit about your home
officer.
And it's like, do you, you know,like have your own private
place?
Like, yeah, it's in thebasement.
I'm like, and I got my couch andmy TV.
I'm like, do you have kids?
No, they're all grown andthey're out in the door.
I'm like, okay, well, like, Youhave a good setup, but there's
(30:33):
an endless amount of people whoHave roommates, have kids, have
challenges and need other space.
So to me, it's been this likeinteresting trope and narrative
that has gone kind of back andforth from like, this is never
going to work to like, this isthe only way to work.
Nothing else is going to work.
And I think it's, what's reallyinteresting is like where we're
netting out, which makes mereally excited, which is like,
(30:57):
Kaleem, what's good for you?
Rick, what's good for you?
What's good for Sam?
It's different where we live,what we do, even like my job,
it's like some days coming tothis office and working from
here is great some days workingfrom where I live nearby is way
easier and better and moreconvenient.
It might be based on liketraffic or kids or like my mood
(31:18):
or like, do I need to focus?
So I think we're moving to thisworld where.
You get to choose, like you getto choose what works best for
you, and it's understood thatwhat works best for you isn't
gonna work best for everybodyelse.
And people are recognizing thisand companies are recognizing
like we need to support ourpeople and trust them.
(31:40):
So I don't know.
That's a little bit about thestory about remote, which I
think has been so fascinating inmy journey.
Rick (31:45):
Yeah.
That, that, that's great.
That's great.
Since we're on the subject andyou mentioned earlier, uh, we
talked a little bit aboutoffices being the least used
asset that you can purchase, andthat was even before the
pandemic.
How does DeskPass help alleviatethose costs?
Sam (32:01):
Yeah, so DustPass is a really cool solution.
And I think, again, like youtalk about the evolution of this
stuff, right?
It's the office, and then it'sco working.
V1 of co working are leases,right?
You go to a landlord, and yousay, I'm gonna take your space,
and I'm gonna sign a lease, andI'm gonna do arbitrage.
I can, I bet I can, if you'recharging me 20 bucks a square
(32:23):
feet, right?
I bet I can charge 40.
I build this community and dosomething cool.
And at the beginning of coworking like that is the only
deal that you could make becauselandlords weren't gonna like
they didn't believe in themodel.
They're too busy getting richthe old fashioned way.
Right?
And then over time, beforeCOVID, but this gets super
(32:44):
accelerated during COVID becauseyou see some really stellar
examples like we work in aTeide, Industrious, Regis, IWG,
landlords recognize, okay,having coworking, having
flexibility as part of mybuilding, as part of my
portfolio is actually reallyimportant to support my building
(33:04):
and the future of work.
So they start doing thesemanagement agreements, right?
They start saying, look, comein, I'll cover some of the
CapEx, like the front stuff.
And then, you know, you won'thave a traditional lease and
then we can share in the upsideand we can do this
collaborative.
And now you're seeing realestate companies like Tishman,
(33:25):
Spire and others, Heinz, thatare just saying, screw it.
Like we're actually going tobuild our own brand and our own
coworking and our, like our ownflexible workspace.
Kaleem (33:33):
Oh, wow.
Wow.
So you're saying some commercialrealtors
Sam (33:37):
because
Kaleem (33:39):
working because they're like, shit, what are we going to
do?
Sam (33:41):
like a tenant, like Facebook is coming in and saying
we used to take 50, 000 squarefeet.
We're going to take 30, but somedays we need 50 and we want to
be in buildings that can kind ofsupport us for that.
Right.
Or I have empty space.
There's all this empty officespace on the market and there's
going to be more and more.
It's harder than ever to sell afive year lease, a lot easier to
sell.
(34:02):
A day, a week, a month, a year.
So offering that flexibility islike a fundamental part of, I
think, how office and the officeindustry is thinking about
workspace.
So the point being withDeskPass, we are a marketplace.
We connect all of the differentcoworking spaces where we don't
(34:22):
own any of the spaces or operateany of the spaces.
We partner with them.
So instead of like atraditional, like I go to WeWork
and I just use WeWork, and Ihave a membership of WeWork.
We offer you access to thousandsand thousands of workspaces for
as little or as much time as youwant, which is like a different
paradigm of using this type ofspace, right?
Kaleem (34:41):
I just pay a membership to desk pass and then it allows
me to go into WeWork?
Or another spot or
Sam (34:46):
yeah, so it depends.
We have like kind of twoproducts.
One is just for individuals.
So I'm in New York and I'm in,you know, Flatiron and I need a
meeting on Thursday for eightpeople.
I can just go on there.
I can book it.
I can find it.
I can do it all through theplatform pay as you go, but more
and more what we sell and wherewe think a huge opportunities
(35:07):
are companies, right?
Companies that have all of asudden have remote employees,
all of a sudden have hybrid workpolicies.
And they're taking less officebecause their office is empty,
but they want to offer somethingmore than just the home.
So they can offer a, like, Youknow, branded solution of desk
pass.
So like good, our X is acustomer or like synchrony
(35:28):
financial.
So synchrony has a synchronybranded desk pass, and then
their employees get access toit.
And then they can use all of ourplat, our platform and spaces,
but the boss pays for it.
And then the boss can look andsee like.
Who used it, where they use it,when they used it
Kaleem (35:43):
How often
Sam (35:45):
yeah, set rules.
Kaleem (35:46):
it down, set rules.
Damn.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
I, so I wanted to ask you aquestion about commercial real
estate.
We were talking about that alittle bit and how it's
changing.
You know, we're seeing a lot ofreturn to offices by companies.
And what do you think is goingto happen to organizations that
(36:07):
are kind of not coming in linewith this new way of workplace
flexibility, like basicallysaying, no, we're going to make
sure everybody comes back to thespot.
If you were working remotely,you got two weeks to move, to
come to the office five days aweek.
Do you feel like workplaceflexibility?
Is going to stay and what'sgoing to happen to organizations
(36:28):
that don't provide that type offlexibility.
Sam (36:31):
They're gonna lose.
Um, I, I, I,
Rick (36:35):
Hmm.
Kaleem (36:36):
They just got to lose.
They're just going
Sam (36:38):
They're going to lose No man.
I mean, okay.
I think.
Two theories.
One is the office ain't goinganywhere.
Like, I don't believe like,there's no more office.
I don't believe companiesshouldn't have offices.
And when I say office, I meanlike HQ.
What I think our thesis is,office is an ecosystem.
HQ, it's going to get smaller.
(37:00):
It's going to be,
Kaleem (37:01):
Hmm.
Sam (37:02):
Why do we have this space downtown that people schlep to?
Is it for us to meet?
Is it us for a pitch?
Is it for us to innovate,inspire, whatever it might be?
And the spaces are going to getbetter.
They're going to get morespecialized, but they're going
to be smaller.
And they're going to be moreflexible.
And employees are going to havemore autonomy to work from
(37:22):
wherever they get to.
Work done that might be at homethat might be on desk pass that
might be at a cafe That might beat a co working space near their
house or near the office neartheir kids child's care so
office is going to evolve fromlike one to many it was easy in
the old days because Everyonecame to the office and that's
where we trained and fed andthat you know to like Everyone
(37:43):
gets their own flavor so I thinkgenerally speaking That is
what's going to happen longterm.
I think in terms of thecompanies that say, No, screw
that.
You're all coming to the office.
Five days a week.
Forever and ever.
Amen.
Again, I'm a designer.
I'm thinking about the humans.
It's like, okay, if I have a jobopportunity between two
(38:04):
companies, and one says, Bro,get your ass in the office every
day.
Same pedigree, same salary, sameeverything.
Another one says,
Kaleem (38:15):
a little less.
Sam (38:16):
Totally.
That is, I've read that.
I've read that.
No, but you know, and the othersays, I don't care where you
work.
Sometimes you have to come intothe office because we need you
here.
I don't know anybody who's like,no, I don't think anyone's
saying I've never come to theoffice again.
They're saying like, I don'twant to come to the office when
it doesn't make any sense for meto come to the office.
Right?
Like, I don't know.
Kaleem (38:34):
just gonna sit there.
Sam (38:35):
so I think that's what's going to happen in the most
talented people.
Kaleem (38:42):
Um, yeah, yeah, I got him, yeah.
Rick (38:44):
I was I was told that I could listen to the radio at a
reasonable volume, but it
Kaleem (38:50):
It's office space, folks, if you don't know what
we're talking about.
We're not being, we're not beingrude.
We're not making fun of anyone.
It's office space, the show.
Look it up,
Sam (38:58):
Look it up.
Rick (38:59):
red swingline stapler
Kaleem (39:01):
plain and simple.
I mean, it's plain
Sam (39:05):
No, that's a Agripo.
That's beautiful.
I love that reference.
Um, no, man.
Yeah.
I just think like you're goingto pick the company that cares
more about you, gives you moreflexibility.
I think there's ample evidenceof that.
And I think if you're a company,you want to hire the most
talented, best people, you'regoing to work at the companies
that offer remote work.
So like.
Kaleem (39:27):
Plain and simple.
Plain
Sam (39:29):
And, then there's like the argument that like, well, you
can't, I'm like, there are somany examples, like the fastest
growing, biggest, hottestcompany in the world right now,
NVIDIA, very remote.
At least like, there are so manygood examples of like the idea
that you can't do it is completebullshit.
It's, it just requires work andthoughtfulness and it's hard and
(39:52):
it doesn't, it's, it's, Yeah.
Leadership.
That's
Kaleem (39:58):
Who would have thought?
Who would have thought?
Thank you, Rick.
Awareness is, huh.
Who would have thought?
Just a little bit of
Rick (40:05):
we gotta freeze it up
Kaleem (40:06):
maybe a little feedback from the employees.
maybe maybe ask the employees alittle bit.
Rick (40:12):
Yeah.
Sam (40:13):
listen.
Rick (40:15):
So, Sam, Sam, Jesus, listen to me, I lost my place.
I think it Was the, uh, officereference that totally threw me
for a loop.
Sam (40:25):
I don't do that.
Kaleem (40:26):
on.
Did they ever make a sequel tothat?
Sam (40:28):
No.
Rick (40:28):
they did.
Kaleem (40:29):
Good.
Good.
for them.
Like, uh, I think
Sam (40:32):
a remote, uh, set
Kaleem (40:34):
Bro, shh! Stella, cut this out! We're gonna make it
Sam, we're gonna make the remoteversion of
Rick (40:42):
Yes, we are.
Sam (40:44):
Two.
Rick (40:47):
I was, I was told that I didn't have to be on camera for
this video meeting.
Kaleem (40:54):
Hey, yeah, I'm gonna need you to commute to The
Office.
That's four hours in traffic.
Cause I need a cup of coffee.
Okay.
Rick (41:06):
share with us a comical moment that you may have had
while working remotely.
Sam (41:11):
So, This was in, like, the heart of COVID.
And it's also funny because I'm,like, having all these,
Conversations with people thatare like, why wouldn't you work
remotely from your home for thefuture forever and ever and
ever?
And this, and I remember in ameeting that this happened.
And, uh, it was like the mostperfect example.
(41:33):
You know, I live in, um, In thesuburbs.
I have, you know, a little tooflat.
I got a nice little setup.
You know, we're lucky.
I got a basement setup.
My wife works at home like Iwork at home.
Got two little kids above.
Got a nice little setup.
Kaleem (41:48):
Okay.
Sam (41:50):
Close the door.
Lock the door.
I thought about like installinglike a little red light.
Like don't come in here when thered light's on, but haven't done
that.
Kaleem (41:56):
I've heard.
That's great.
Sam (41:57):
It's a good idea.
So, but, but just lock in thedoor.
So like, I'm like, I'm, I'm, Ican survive.
Sometimes I can hear like thepitter patter above me, right?
My damn kids.
That was a few years ago.
So they were like, I don't knowthree and six or three and five.
They figured out they figuredout a hack.
(42:19):
And this was the hack.
Which was, they couldcommunicate with me even though
I was in another room and theyfigured out the hack and it was
through the HVAC vents, so theywould start They would be like
Yeah, one day i'm like on a call
Rick (42:37):
heh
Sam (42:37):
it's like
Rick (42:38):
heh
Kaleem (42:39):
of them.
Sam (42:39):
I am proud of him.
I got my ass out of that office,but but yeah, it was like And
then I would start hearing coinsthey would like throw coins down
the fuck down the Like airconditioning vent to get my
attention But it was like, itwas like at the park, you know,
at the park, how they have thoselike tubes and you can talk to
(42:59):
somebody out like they like,we're like, Ooh, this is like a
tube to dad's office.
And it was like, it was like anintercom.
It was like paging, paging dad.
So, That was always, I'm like,so let's talk about your stuff.
Come and talk about my setup.
My HVAC pipe is plugged rightinto my kid's room, and they can
communicate to me whenever theywant, all day long, during all
(43:21):
my meetings, even with a lockeddoor.
Rick (43:23):
Oh wow.
Sam (43:24):
a hilarious, um,
Rick (43:26):
I mean, you gotta chalk that up to the brilliance of
children, right?
I mean, they're not as, they'reso smart! And, like, they think
in ways that we obviously oncedid, but we didn't realize it at
the time, right?
So you gotta embrace that shit.
You gotta
Kaleem (43:39):
Yeah.
Rick (43:40):
you
Sam (43:40):
I'm very proud of that.
I went back to co working.
but, but, went to Death passfound a nice space nearby.
But I was like, huh, didn'tthink of that one.
Rick (43:56):
man,
Kaleem (43:56):
I mean, were the things that they were saying, they
weren't like, they weren'tsaying horrible stuff while
you're on calls.
Nothing like that.
Okay.
Okay, cool dad
Sam (44:04):
yet.
Kaleem (44:04):
my pants.
You know what I mean?
Just saying horrible stuff, you
Sam (44:08):
No, not yet.
Not yet.
Kaleem (44:09):
yet.
Perfect.
Rick (44:11):
Awesome, awesome.
Hey, Sam, where can ourlisteners find you?
Sam (44:14):
Yeah.
So, I'm very accessible on theinternet, sam@sammyrosen.com.
That's my website.
That's my, my personal stuff,Sam, at desk pass, dot com.
Uh, you know, I'm on all theinternet, but, so yeah, there's
another Sam Rosen, he's far morefamous than me.
He is the broadcaster for theNew York Rangers and also like
(44:35):
the third tier, for announcerfor the Chicago bears.
I don't recommend, I don'trecommend having a, peer that is
a, named as you, that's abroadcaster.
Because every time I look myselfon the internet, half the people
are like, fuck you, Sam Rosen,you're the worst.
And the other half
Rick (44:51):
Swerski!
Sam (44:52):
Rosen is a golden God.
Uh,
Kaleem (44:56):
biracial golden God.
Rick (45:00):
That's
Sam (45:00):
but, so I'm not that Sam Rosen.
I'm the workspace Sam Rosenwith, with a, with a child
acting credit.
Rick (45:08):
I'm Old Country Buffet Sam
Sam (45:11):
Yeah.
That's my hand.
OCB Sam, Matt.
No, just kidding.
Rick (45:15):
We're done with OCB.
Kaleem (45:17):
Yeah.
You know me, you can't help it.
Rick (45:20):
Yeah,
Kaleem (45:21):
Well, Sam, thank you so much for joining us, man.
Really appreciate it, bro.
Rick (45:24):
has been a great conversation.
Come back anytime.
We've had a lot of laughs and weappreciate your sense of humor
and certainly tolerating ours.
So
Sam (45:32):
No man.
this is so fun.
You guys are a blast.
I appreciate the time.
Kaleem (45:36):
All right, man.
We'll talk to you all later,man.
Peace.
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