January 29, 2025 • 16 mins
In the latest episode of our NSFRW series, Gillian Brookes—New Zealand’s leading flexible work specialist and author of Flexperts—joins us for a candid, laugh-out-loud conversation about workplace chaos, executive misfires, and the surprising power of honest dialogue.
From a “hot-mess” holiday leadership meeting to a high-stakes workshop that goes hilariously off-track, Gillian shares the story of an overworked leadership team and a brutally honest chief exec that led to some awkward moments and surprising lessons. Along the way, Gillian opens up about her mission to help organizations thrive with flexible work practices, how to navigate uncomfortable workplace dynamics, and why reframing challenges is the secret to successful leadership.
Packed with both humor and wisdom, this episode is a perfect blend of entertainment and insights. Grab a coffee and tune in for a story you won’t forget—and a few lessons you can actually use!
Learn more about Gillian:
- Gillian’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gillian-brookes-88928aa2/
- Gillian’s webpage: https://www.gillianbrookes.co.nz/
More about us:
- Remotely One’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/remotelyone
- Remotely One’s Webpage: https://www.remotelyone.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Got to hear a story That madeyou red in the face Had you drop
right to your knees Only withouta trace Dog screwin in the
background Little baby manthrowin cake Come on, y'all,
don't go berserk It's all goodhere, hold it Word! Not safe for
remote, word What you've got tosay, not safe for remote work,
(00:26):
eh, eh.
Zoom in day to day, not safe forremote.
Rick (00:33):
Welcome to Remotely One's NSFRW Not Safe for Remote Work.
Where we invite employees at alllevels to share their most
outrageous moments while workingremotely.
Do you have a story to tell?
We want to hear it.
You could submit your story atremotelyone.
com forward slash podcast.
Today's guest is originally fromSouth London and is now a
(00:56):
resident of Wellington, NewZealand.
She is New Zealand's flexiblework specialist.
And is the author of the book,Flexperts.
Gillian Brooks, come on down!
Kaleem (01:15):
Gillian place is going crazy.
I want to
Rick (01:19):
Look at these people.
Look at these people.
You people are Hey, hey, down infront.
Down in front.
Settle down.
Settle down.
Okay?
Let's keep this together.
This is a professionalatmosphere, people.
Gillian (01:29):
guys.
Rick (01:31):
Gilliann, thank you so much for joining us and for
tolerating us this far.
Gillian (01:36):
Oh, it's a pleasure.
Absolute pleasure.
Yeah.
Rick (01:41):
No, it's, it's great to have you.
We're, we're so excited to hearyour story.
Kaleem (01:44):
she's in the future.
I can't believe she's in thefuture.
Rick (01:48):
Yeah, this is insane.
This is absolutely insane.
Like I'm sitting here drinking abeer after a full day's work and
she's just having her morningtea.
I don't know how to feel
Gillian (01:57):
I know.
I know.
I'm in the weekend and you'restill on Friday.
It's insane.
Kaleem (02:02):
Oh my god.
Gillian (02:04):
blows our minds.
Kaleem (02:06):
So Gillian We are here for not safe for remote work
where everyone's just tellingstories um, tell us a little bit
about yourself and what it isthat you're doing these days and
then Let's set us up for thestory.
I want to hear what's going.
I can't wait to hear The story.
Gillian (02:25):
Okay.
Right.
So, what I do for a living isI'm a self employed flexible
work specialist.
And so I do lots of training.
I work with lots of leaders andleadership teams to help them,
get the best from flex,basically, you know, kind of
help them understand how to getthe best of it, how to have
better flexible work practice,how to connect it to their
(02:46):
workforce strategy, all thesesorts of things.
And I work with lots ofdifferent organizations across
New Zealand to help them.
Yeah.
Kind of just dial up thebenefits really.
Cause a lot of them are kind ofliving with it at the moment and
they haven't quite worked outhow to make the most of it.
So that's what I spend my timedoing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kaleem (03:08):
the best part of the show, what's up with the story
that you want to tell everybody,please let us know, you know,
give us all the details whereyou were.
How long ago was it?
Rick (03:18):
Take us there.
Gillian
Gillian (03:20):
Okay.
All right.
So we're in New Zealand.
We're in Wellington.
We're in a public servicedepartment over here and there
are many of them.
And I was working with oneparticular leadership team from
a public service agency.
And it was just beforeChristmas.
And over here at Christmas, it'shot.
Everyone's tired.
(03:40):
There's the,
Kaleem (03:41):
is craziness.
Rick (03:44):
Yeah.
Kaleem (03:45):
Why is it hot?
Why is it hot there?
Gillian (03:47):
Because the seasons are upside down in the Southern
hemisphere.
Kaleem (03:54):
well, no, they could be right side up for you though.
Gillian (03:58):
Exactly.
Exactly.
We're the right way up andeveryone else is upside down.
Rick (04:02):
Yeah, but mind you, you know, when we're at the beach
sipping on our hard seltzers,they're in like, uh, You know,
zip up jackets and
Gillian (04:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's, yeah, exactly.
Crazy.
Crazy.
The world.
Kaleem (04:15):
Okay.
Okay.
So, so it's, so it's hot.
Gillian (04:19):
it's hot.
And the lead up to Christmas in,you know, in New Zealand, but
particularly in the publicservice is everyone's tired.
Everyone has this crazy ideathat everything has to be
finished before Christmas.
That's it.
And they forget that whenChristmas comes and we go back
to work in the new year thatthere are more days to come.
They forget that becauseeverything has to be done by
(04:42):
Christmas.
Kaleem (04:44):
Let's get it done today.
There's
Gillian (04:45):
yeah.
yeah.
So everything's just like thatneeds to be done before
Christmas Eve.
Before we, we all have likestrawberries and, you know,
bubbles or whatever at ChristmasEve because it's summer.
And so you have strawberries.
So anyway, it's early Decemberand everyone's tired.
Everyone's hot and bothered.
We're in this, we're in thisroom.
I'm with the senior leadershipteam.
(05:06):
There's about, I know, 12 peoplein there.
So, And they're all just like,you know, big bags under their
eyes and just like, what are wedoing?
Let's just, and, and what it is,right, is that they've decided
that they want to kick off thenew year with all this training
for all their people leaders,which is great.
So before we do it though, Iwant to spend some time with the
(05:27):
senior leadership team to makesure they feel really good about
what they're Good about what'sgoing to come.
They're really clear about themessaging they want to send out
to their leaders.
And so I run this workshop withthe senior leadership teams,
just kind of like, let's allgather together.
I'll give you some context.
What's going on with flex acrossthe world, give you some data so
that we're not overly swayed bythose.
(05:48):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
We're talking kind of facts andfigures rather than like, Oh,
well, I read this and I wastalking to my mate and they said
that, you know, like there'senough of that already.
Right.
So.
bringing them together, havingthis conversation.
Kaleem (06:00):
Now, are you in person or you're remote?
Gillian (06:02):
so this is in person.
We're kind of in person becausethey're trying to work out as an
organization, how they can domore of this remote work, right?
So it's, we're all in this hotroom and it's, it's a little bit
airless and not enough sunlight,sunlight, you know, it's just a
bit stuffy.
And We've been in this room forabout at least an hour, at
least.
(06:23):
And we're going around the roomand I've asked the question.
Why is it that Flex matters toyou as a senior leadership team?
What is it that you want to seethat's better than it, you know,
the now once we've delivered allthis training, like what's the
real purpose for all thistraining?
Why do you want to invest inthis flexibility and doing it
better?
Right?
Because there's so many answersto that question, right?
(06:45):
It might be, we want to attractand retain talent.
It might be, we want to havebetter diverse leadership teams.
Yeah, exactly.
We want kind of high levels ofwellbeing, want to reduce the
burnout risk for our peoplelike.
What is it that really mattersto you as an, as a leadership
team?
And whenever I have thatconversation, you go around and
everyone's got their own versionof that.
(07:06):
And what I want them to get tois to all have the same, a bit
of consensus or a bit of acommon story so that when
they're going out to theirorganization, they can be really
all on the same page.
Kaleem (07:17):
Okay.
I
Gillian (07:18):
So this is where the connection to strategy comes in,
right?
And we're going around and allthe leaders, they're getting
into it and they're kind oftalking to each other.
They go, Oh, that's reallyinteresting.
Yeah.
How many thought of it likethat?
You know, how do we make surethis is like fair for everybody
and everyone has more access tomore choices.
And I'm like, yeah, brilliant.
Kaleem (07:35):
mean, everyone's happy.
Gillian (07:37):
Everyone's like, well, they're engaged at least, you
know, I wouldn't go as far ashappy,
Kaleem (07:42):
No, I hear you.
But I mean, you're, you're inthe, as the facilitator to you,
like you're pointing around andyou're like, you know, you're
doing your thing.
You're loving
Gillian (07:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm loving it.
I'm loving it.
And then, and then I'm kind ofwriting up their different
answers on the board so we canstart to decide like which is
the one that's kind of floatingto the surface and is the one
that's most important to them.
And we get to the chief execand, um, she sits back in a
chair and she's at the head ofthe table.
(08:10):
Right.
And everyone kind of quietensdown a bit.
They're like, oh, oh dear.
And she said, Gillian, can youstop asking me why this matters?
Why I'm doing this?
Can you just stop asking me thatquestion?
And I was like, oh God, oh God.
And she said, um, I'm doing thisbecause I have to, I wish I
(08:32):
could stop talking about it.
like, everyone's,
Rick (08:36):
do you do with that?
Gillian (08:38):
Shrinking.
I'm the only person standing upin the room.
Everyone else is sitting down.
You can see them physicallyshrink.
But I can't do that.
I'm standing up.
I'm at the whiteboard.
Like writing down I'm like, Oh,no.
And she's just like, I'm onlydoing this because I have to, do
you know what?
I wish I could stop talkingabout it.
(08:59):
I just want us to move on.
I just want us to stop kind ofworrying about it.
Like, let's just do the trainingand just move on.
I was like, Oh, and I was like,okay.
Um.
There was a sort of ripple ofdiscomfort through the team and
people were kind of, you know,the shifty eyes when people are
like looking at each othersideways and just like, do we
(09:21):
do?
Rick (09:22):
What do we
Gillian (09:23):
now?
There was a lot of that.
And do you know what?
Like, one of the beautifulthings about being the external
person.
Is you don't have to saveeverybody, you know, like you
could just, you can just letthem be a bit uncomfortable and
you're probably doing them abetter service than trying to
save everyone.
Right.
Cause you're like, herein liesyour problem.
Kaleem (09:45):
So what happens?
Wait, what happens?
Like, so it's silent.
Everyone's looking at it's like,damn, damn.
Gillian (09:53):
Yeah.
Rick (09:54):
Oh no, we've made teacher
Gillian (09:56):
And she So I said, well, the thing is, you could go
out to your people and yourleaders with that story.
We're doing this because we haveto but I don't think it's going
to give you the shift thatyou're really looking for.
(10:17):
You know, like maybe we couldgive that an upgrade.
So why don't we like, have alittle think about some of these
other ideas on the board and seewhich ones of those you might
want to.
Kaleem (10:32):
let's have a
Rick (10:32):
I mean, it really doesn't bode well for her leadership,
for her to say, I'm only doingthis because I have to.
Kaleem (10:38):
So what was, what was the final result of the policy
of what ended up happening?
Gillian (10:43):
I think she was really uncomfortable.
I think she was like, Oh shit.
I've, Oh, sorry, I probablycan't say that.
Kaleem (10:49):
No, No, no, this is an nc.
Yeah, this is an NC 17 show.
We throw, we throw
Gillian (10:55):
Brilliant.
Okay.
Kaleem (10:56):
what?
See what shit sticks.
Yeah.
Rick (11:00):
Does she look at you and say, oh, that was a real cock
up?
No.
No.
That was a real cock up.
I'm really in the piss now,aren't I?
Ain't it?
Heh heh heh heh heh.
Gillian (11:14):
she was all of a sudden really fascinated by her phone
and then she, um, She suddenlyhad an emergency she needed to
attend to, which I kind ofthought was interesting because
all of her senior leaders werealready in the room that she was
in.
So I'm not quite sure, maybe itwas, you know, something was
going on with the ministers orsomething, you know,
Rick (11:30):
up her desk.
That's what was going on.
Gillian (11:32):
so awkward.
Kaleem (11:34):
I'm curious about the end result of the policy.
So you guys were talking aboutworkplace flexibility and stuff
like that.
So what was kind of the endresult?
What they end
Gillian (11:44):
So, when she kind of left, she kind of left and left
everybody else to kind of carryon.
And I was like, okay, so wheredo you want to take this people?
You know, do you want that storythat we're doing this because we
have to?
Or do you want a better, do youwant a different story?
And they were kind of like, youknow, it's obvious what the
answer was.
And so we kind of cobbledtogether something about making
(12:05):
flexible work.
Fairer for everybody and witheverybody having more access to
some choices, which was a aneasy line Everyone you had to
say it, you know It's notcomplicated and we went with
that in the end, but honestly, II've never had so many apologies
from people in the room therewas so not not from the senior
(12:26):
leader hasten to add but fromAll of the rest of the
leadership team, they werecoming up to me, I was just
going, I'm so sorry, I don'tknow.
What's like, there's a lot goingon right now.
There's, you know, it's thatlead up to Christmas time.
Everyone's a bit stressed, like,I'm really sorry.
That's not how she normallyshows up.
Like that's, that's just what wegot.
Rick (12:46):
yeah, no, but that's, that says a lot about the respect
that they had for you becausethey were put In an
uncomfortable spot by one oftheir own and they didn't want
you to think badly of thembecause she was mistreating you.
So, I mean, that's good for you.
Gillian (13:01):
It was, it was.
And do you know what?
I think you're right.
I think you're right.
And do you know what I said tothem?
I said, do you know what?
At least she was honest.
Like, there are so many seniorleaders who will be thinking
that living by that belief thatthey've got in their heads, but
they're not going to be braveenough to say it out loud.
I said, at least she had thecourage of that conviction to
just be honest.
(13:22):
Yes, it was uncomfortable, butat least we know what we're
dealing with.
If that's how she's feeling.
We can operate with that inmind, you know?
And so when I was thendelivering the training out to
all the people leaders, likethere's about, I don't know, 120
people leaders that I then wenton to train.
I was able to kind of really Putvoice to that feeling that some
(13:43):
of them might have had, whichis, Oh God, why are we doing
this?
You know, and I could just frontfoot it.
And I could say, look, you mightbe feeling like, Oh, I'm doing
this because I have to, youknow, I'm doing this because
it's, we've got no choice.
My back's against the wall andhere's how we can reframe it.
You know?
So it was kind of a bit of ablessing in the end, but God, it
was uncomfortable.
Rick (14:05):
Oh, I would imagine so.
Kaleem (14:06):
love.
Stop asking me.
Just stop it.
We're doing this because we haveto.
Gillian (14:13):
this.
Kaleem (14:14):
Damn it, bitch.
Why you keep asking me thisquestion?
It's like you brought me here todo this.
Why are you yelling at me?
Gillian (14:25):
Yeah.
Why are you yelling at
Kaleem (14:26):
Why are you
Gillian (14:27):
my
Kaleem (14:27):
at me?
Yes
Rick (14:31):
I'm only showing up because the state tells me I
have to
Kaleem (14:34):
right.
I'm here cuz y'all paid me.
Why are you mad at me?
I don't get it such a weirddynamic and they're like you're
the leaders Like I'm here togive you a softball.
So, so great.
Well, thank you so much for thatstory.
Gillian, can you tell ourlisteners and viewers and our
audience, where can they findyou online?
(14:54):
Where can they find you to, to,to
Gillian (14:56):
Yeah, of course.
Thanks, Kaleem.
Yeah.
So you can findme@jillianbrooks.co nz, because
I'm New Zealand based.
That's where you can find me oryou can find me on LinkedIn,
Gillian Brooks and I'll pop up.
And also, yeah, you can checkout my book FlexBets, which
you'll be able to grab onlineor, you know, an e copy.
Yeah.
So I hope you enjoy it.
It's a very practical guide.
(15:16):
It's not highfalutin oranything.
It's just lots of practical tipsabout how to make the best of
flexible work.
Kaleem (15:23):
Well, thank you so much.
We really appreciate the storyand I know our audience will
like it too.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Good stuff.
Rick (15:31):
it was really great to connect with you.
Kaleem (15:33):
Awesome.
We'll talk to you later.
Peace.
Got to hear a story That madeyou red in the face Had you drop
right to your knees Only withouta trace Dog screwin in the
background Little baby manthrowin cake Come on, y'all,
don't go berserk It's all goodhere, hold it Word! Not safe for
remote, word What you've got tosay, not safe for remote work,
(00:26):
eh, eh.
Zoom in day to day, not safe forremote.
Rick (00:33):
Welcome to Remotely One's NSFRW Not Safe for Remote Work.
Where we invite employees at alllevels to share their most
outrageous moments while workingremotely.
Do you have a story to tell?
We want to hear it.
You could submit your story atremotelyone.
com forward slash podcast.
Today's guest is originally fromSouth London and is now a
(00:56):
resident of Wellington, NewZealand.
She is New Zealand's flexiblework specialist.
And is the author of the book,Flexperts.
Gillian Brooks, come on down!
Kaleem (01:15):
Gillian place is going crazy.
I want to
Rick (01:19):
Look at these people.
Look at these people.
You people are Hey, hey, down infront.
Down in front.
Settle down.
Settle down.
Okay?
Let's keep this together.
This is a professionalatmosphere, people.
Gillian (01:29):
guys.
Rick (01:31):
Gilliann, thank you so much for joining us and for
tolerating us this far.
Gillian (01:36):
Oh, it's a pleasure.
Absolute pleasure.
Yeah.
Rick (01:41):
No, it's, it's great to have you.
We're, we're so excited to hearyour story.
Kaleem (01:44):
she's in the future.
I can't believe she's in thefuture.
Rick (01:48):
Yeah, this is insane.
This is absolutely insane.
Like I'm sitting here drinking abeer after a full day's work and
she's just having her morningtea.
I don't know how to feel
Gillian (01:57):
I know.
I know.
I'm in the weekend and you'restill on Friday.
It's insane.
Kaleem (02:02):
Oh my god.
Gillian (02:04):
blows our minds.
Kaleem (02:06):
So Gillian We are here for not safe for remote work
where everyone's just tellingstories um, tell us a little bit
about yourself and what it isthat you're doing these days and
then Let's set us up for thestory.
I want to hear what's going.
I can't wait to hear The story.
Gillian (02:25):
Okay.
Right.
So, what I do for a living isI'm a self employed flexible
work specialist.
And so I do lots of training.
I work with lots of leaders andleadership teams to help them,
get the best from flex,basically, you know, kind of
help them understand how to getthe best of it, how to have
better flexible work practice,how to connect it to their
(02:46):
workforce strategy, all thesesorts of things.
And I work with lots ofdifferent organizations across
New Zealand to help them.
Yeah.
Kind of just dial up thebenefits really.
Cause a lot of them are kind ofliving with it at the moment and
they haven't quite worked outhow to make the most of it.
So that's what I spend my timedoing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kaleem (03:08):
the best part of the show, what's up with the story
that you want to tell everybody,please let us know, you know,
give us all the details whereyou were.
How long ago was it?
Rick (03:18):
Take us there.
Gillian
Gillian (03:20):
Okay.
All right.
So we're in New Zealand.
We're in Wellington.
We're in a public servicedepartment over here and there
are many of them.
And I was working with oneparticular leadership team from
a public service agency.
And it was just beforeChristmas.
And over here at Christmas, it'shot.
Everyone's tired.
(03:40):
There's the,
Kaleem (03:41):
is craziness.
Rick (03:44):
Yeah.
Kaleem (03:45):
Why is it hot?
Why is it hot there?
Gillian (03:47):
Because the seasons are upside down in the Southern
hemisphere.
Kaleem (03:54):
well, no, they could be right side up for you though.
Gillian (03:58):
Exactly.
Exactly.
We're the right way up andeveryone else is upside down.
Rick (04:02):
Yeah, but mind you, you know, when we're at the beach
sipping on our hard seltzers,they're in like, uh, You know,
zip up jackets and
Gillian (04:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's, yeah, exactly.
Crazy.
Crazy.
The world.
Kaleem (04:15):
Okay.
Okay.
So, so it's, so it's hot.
Gillian (04:19):
it's hot.
And the lead up to Christmas in,you know, in New Zealand, but
particularly in the publicservice is everyone's tired.
Everyone has this crazy ideathat everything has to be
finished before Christmas.
That's it.
And they forget that whenChristmas comes and we go back
to work in the new year thatthere are more days to come.
They forget that becauseeverything has to be done by
(04:42):
Christmas.
Kaleem (04:44):
Let's get it done today.
There's
Gillian (04:45):
yeah.
yeah.
So everything's just like thatneeds to be done before
Christmas Eve.
Before we, we all have likestrawberries and, you know,
bubbles or whatever at ChristmasEve because it's summer.
And so you have strawberries.
So anyway, it's early Decemberand everyone's tired.
Everyone's hot and bothered.
We're in this, we're in thisroom.
I'm with the senior leadershipteam.
(05:06):
There's about, I know, 12 peoplein there.
So, And they're all just like,you know, big bags under their
eyes and just like, what are wedoing?
Let's just, and, and what it is,right, is that they've decided
that they want to kick off thenew year with all this training
for all their people leaders,which is great.
So before we do it though, Iwant to spend some time with the
(05:27):
senior leadership team to makesure they feel really good about
what they're Good about what'sgoing to come.
They're really clear about themessaging they want to send out
to their leaders.
And so I run this workshop withthe senior leadership teams,
just kind of like, let's allgather together.
I'll give you some context.
What's going on with flex acrossthe world, give you some data so
that we're not overly swayed bythose.
(05:48):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
We're talking kind of facts andfigures rather than like, Oh,
well, I read this and I wastalking to my mate and they said
that, you know, like there'senough of that already.
Right.
So.
bringing them together, havingthis conversation.
Kaleem (06:00):
Now, are you in person or you're remote?
Gillian (06:02):
so this is in person.
We're kind of in person becausethey're trying to work out as an
organization, how they can domore of this remote work, right?
So it's, we're all in this hotroom and it's, it's a little bit
airless and not enough sunlight,sunlight, you know, it's just a
bit stuffy.
And We've been in this room forabout at least an hour, at
least.
(06:23):
And we're going around the roomand I've asked the question.
Why is it that Flex matters toyou as a senior leadership team?
What is it that you want to seethat's better than it, you know,
the now once we've delivered allthis training, like what's the
real purpose for all thistraining?
Why do you want to invest inthis flexibility and doing it
better?
Right?
Because there's so many answersto that question, right?
(06:45):
It might be, we want to attractand retain talent.
It might be, we want to havebetter diverse leadership teams.
Yeah, exactly.
We want kind of high levels ofwellbeing, want to reduce the
burnout risk for our peoplelike.
What is it that really mattersto you as an, as a leadership
team?
And whenever I have thatconversation, you go around and
everyone's got their own versionof that.
(07:06):
And what I want them to get tois to all have the same, a bit
of consensus or a bit of acommon story so that when
they're going out to theirorganization, they can be really
all on the same page.
Kaleem (07:17):
Okay.
I
Gillian (07:18):
So this is where the connection to strategy comes in,
right?
And we're going around and allthe leaders, they're getting
into it and they're kind oftalking to each other.
They go, Oh, that's reallyinteresting.
Yeah.
How many thought of it likethat?
You know, how do we make surethis is like fair for everybody
and everyone has more access tomore choices.
And I'm like, yeah, brilliant.
Kaleem (07:35):
mean, everyone's happy.
Gillian (07:37):
Everyone's like, well, they're engaged at least, you
know, I wouldn't go as far ashappy,
Kaleem (07:42):
No, I hear you.
But I mean, you're, you're inthe, as the facilitator to you,
like you're pointing around andyou're like, you know, you're
doing your thing.
You're loving
Gillian (07:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm loving it.
I'm loving it.
And then, and then I'm kind ofwriting up their different
answers on the board so we canstart to decide like which is
the one that's kind of floatingto the surface and is the one
that's most important to them.
And we get to the chief execand, um, she sits back in a
chair and she's at the head ofthe table.
(08:10):
Right.
And everyone kind of quietensdown a bit.
They're like, oh, oh dear.
And she said, Gillian, can youstop asking me why this matters?
Why I'm doing this?
Can you just stop asking me thatquestion?
And I was like, oh God, oh God.
And she said, um, I'm doing thisbecause I have to, I wish I
(08:32):
could stop talking about it.
like, everyone's,
Rick (08:36):
do you do with that?
Gillian (08:38):
Shrinking.
I'm the only person standing upin the room.
Everyone else is sitting down.
You can see them physicallyshrink.
But I can't do that.
I'm standing up.
I'm at the whiteboard.
Like writing down I'm like, Oh,no.
And she's just like, I'm onlydoing this because I have to, do
you know what?
I wish I could stop talkingabout it.
(08:59):
I just want us to move on.
I just want us to stop kind ofworrying about it.
Like, let's just do the trainingand just move on.
I was like, Oh, and I was like,okay.
Um.
There was a sort of ripple ofdiscomfort through the team and
people were kind of, you know,the shifty eyes when people are
like looking at each othersideways and just like, do we
(09:21):
do?
Rick (09:22):
What do we
Gillian (09:23):
now?
There was a lot of that.
And do you know what?
Like, one of the beautifulthings about being the external
person.
Is you don't have to saveeverybody, you know, like you
could just, you can just letthem be a bit uncomfortable and
you're probably doing them abetter service than trying to
save everyone.
Right.
Cause you're like, herein liesyour problem.
Kaleem (09:45):
So what happens?
Wait, what happens?
Like, so it's silent.
Everyone's looking at it's like,damn, damn.
Gillian (09:53):
Yeah.
Rick (09:54):
Oh no, we've made teacher
Gillian (09:56):
And she So I said, well, the thing is, you could go
out to your people and yourleaders with that story.
We're doing this because we haveto but I don't think it's going
to give you the shift thatyou're really looking for.
(10:17):
You know, like maybe we couldgive that an upgrade.
So why don't we like, have alittle think about some of these
other ideas on the board and seewhich ones of those you might
want to.
Kaleem (10:32):
let's have a
Rick (10:32):
I mean, it really doesn't bode well for her leadership,
for her to say, I'm only doingthis because I have to.
Kaleem (10:38):
So what was, what was the final result of the policy
of what ended up happening?
Gillian (10:43):
I think she was really uncomfortable.
I think she was like, Oh shit.
I've, Oh, sorry, I probablycan't say that.
Kaleem (10:49):
No, No, no, this is an nc.
Yeah, this is an NC 17 show.
We throw, we throw
Gillian (10:55):
Brilliant.
Okay.
Kaleem (10:56):
what?
See what shit sticks.
Yeah.
Rick (11:00):
Does she look at you and say, oh, that was a real cock
up?
No.
No.
That was a real cock up.
I'm really in the piss now,aren't I?
Ain't it?
Heh heh heh heh heh.
Gillian (11:14):
she was all of a sudden really fascinated by her phone
and then she, um, She suddenlyhad an emergency she needed to
attend to, which I kind ofthought was interesting because
all of her senior leaders werealready in the room that she was
in.
So I'm not quite sure, maybe itwas, you know, something was
going on with the ministers orsomething, you know,
Rick (11:30):
up her desk.
That's what was going on.
Gillian (11:32):
so awkward.
Kaleem (11:34):
I'm curious about the end result of the policy.
So you guys were talking aboutworkplace flexibility and stuff
like that.
So what was kind of the endresult?
What they end
Gillian (11:44):
So, when she kind of left, she kind of left and left
everybody else to kind of carryon.
And I was like, okay, so wheredo you want to take this people?
You know, do you want that storythat we're doing this because we
have to?
Or do you want a better, do youwant a different story?
And they were kind of like, youknow, it's obvious what the
answer was.
And so we kind of cobbledtogether something about making
(12:05):
flexible work.
Fairer for everybody and witheverybody having more access to
some choices, which was a aneasy line Everyone you had to
say it, you know It's notcomplicated and we went with
that in the end, but honestly, II've never had so many apologies
from people in the room therewas so not not from the senior
(12:26):
leader hasten to add but fromAll of the rest of the
leadership team, they werecoming up to me, I was just
going, I'm so sorry, I don'tknow.
What's like, there's a lot goingon right now.
There's, you know, it's thatlead up to Christmas time.
Everyone's a bit stressed, like,I'm really sorry.
That's not how she normallyshows up.
Like that's, that's just what wegot.
Rick (12:46):
yeah, no, but that's, that says a lot about the respect
that they had for you becausethey were put In an
uncomfortable spot by one oftheir own and they didn't want
you to think badly of thembecause she was mistreating you.
So, I mean, that's good for you.
Gillian (13:01):
It was, it was.
And do you know what?
I think you're right.
I think you're right.
And do you know what I said tothem?
I said, do you know what?
At least she was honest.
Like, there are so many seniorleaders who will be thinking
that living by that belief thatthey've got in their heads, but
they're not going to be braveenough to say it out loud.
I said, at least she had thecourage of that conviction to
just be honest.
(13:22):
Yes, it was uncomfortable, butat least we know what we're
dealing with.
If that's how she's feeling.
We can operate with that inmind, you know?
And so when I was thendelivering the training out to
all the people leaders, likethere's about, I don't know, 120
people leaders that I then wenton to train.
I was able to kind of really Putvoice to that feeling that some
(13:43):
of them might have had, whichis, Oh God, why are we doing
this?
You know, and I could just frontfoot it.
And I could say, look, you mightbe feeling like, Oh, I'm doing
this because I have to, youknow, I'm doing this because
it's, we've got no choice.
My back's against the wall andhere's how we can reframe it.
You know?
So it was kind of a bit of ablessing in the end, but God, it
was uncomfortable.
Rick (14:05):
Oh, I would imagine so.
Kaleem (14:06):
love.
Stop asking me.
Just stop it.
We're doing this because we haveto.
Gillian (14:13):
this.
Kaleem (14:14):
Damn it, bitch.
Why you keep asking me thisquestion?
It's like you brought me here todo this.
Why are you yelling at me?
Gillian (14:25):
Yeah.
Why are you yelling at
Kaleem (14:26):
Why are you
Gillian (14:27):
my
Kaleem (14:27):
at me?
Yes
Rick (14:31):
I'm only showing up because the state tells me I
have to
Kaleem (14:34):
right.
I'm here cuz y'all paid me.
Why are you mad at me?
I don't get it such a weirddynamic and they're like you're
the leaders Like I'm here togive you a softball.
So, so great.
Well, thank you so much for thatstory.
Gillian, can you tell ourlisteners and viewers and our
audience, where can they findyou online?
(14:54):
Where can they find you to, to,to
Gillian (14:56):
Yeah, of course.
Thanks, Kaleem.
Yeah.
So you can findme@jillianbrooks.co nz, because
I'm New Zealand based.
That's where you can find me oryou can find me on LinkedIn,
Gillian Brooks and I'll pop up.
And also, yeah, you can checkout my book FlexBets, which
you'll be able to grab onlineor, you know, an e copy.
Yeah.
So I hope you enjoy it.
It's a very practical guide.
(15:16):
It's not highfalutin oranything.
It's just lots of practical tipsabout how to make the best of
flexible work.
Kaleem (15:23):
Well, thank you so much.
We really appreciate the storyand I know our audience will
like it too.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Good stuff.
Rick (15:31):
it was really great to connect with you.
Kaleem (15:33):
Awesome.
We'll talk to you later.
Peace.
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