Confused about skincare? You're not alone. In this episode, I chat with leading Dermatologist Dr Andrew Freeman about what really impacts our skin.
By watching you'll learn about skin cancer, sunscreen, vitamin D, the role of nutrition, how stress shows up on your face, and the exciting future of the skin health industry (yes, it does involve AI)
Whether you’re a skincare minimalist or love your routine, this one’s packed with expert advice to help you feel more confident in your skin.
We cover:
* When to see a Dermatologist
* What to look for in a sunscreen
* How diet, supplements & stress affect your skin
* What foods we should be eating more (and less) of
* The truth about vitamin D
* The future of skincare
* What makes Bloc Skincare unique
Connect with Dr Andrew Freeman:
Instagram: www.instagram.com/drandrewfreeman
Website: www.skincentre.com.au
The Skin Centre Instagram: www.instagram.com/theskincentre
Explore Bloc Skincare:
Website: www.blocskincare.com
Instagram: www.instagram.com/blocskincare
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Hello and welcome back to Reset.I have a special guest with me
today. He is one of Australia's
favorite dermatologists. His name is Doctor Andrew
Freeman, and we are going to be diving deep into all things skin
health. Andrew, welcome to Reset.
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Ash.
It's great to be here. Yeah, so good to have you in the
studio. Let's start from the beginning
(00:25):
though. What is a dermatologist and when
should people come to see a dermatologist instead of their
GP or say a beautician or something like that?
Yep. OK, well, first thing to say is
a dermatologist is a specialist medical doctor.
So this is someone who's chosen their career to be purely skin.
So after you become a doctor here in Australia, then we
usually diverge into different types of speciality, cardiology
(00:48):
or the heart or bone. And in dermatology, it's all
skin. And so that's the skin we think
of, but it's also hair and nailsand everything related to those
conditions. And so when you're picking a
dermatologist, you're really going to see someone when you
need expert care in that particular field.
So in this case, skin, if you'reseeing your General
practitioner, I think that's an excellent place to start when
you need general advice about what's happening.
(01:10):
Who should I see? How should I get started?
And I think then if the simple things aren't working or the
initial plan isn't working in whatever field you're trying to
improve when it comes to your health, then I think that's when
you need to seek the specialist and in this case, dermatologist.
Yeah, nice. That sounds like a little study.
How many years that uni did you spend?
So university is sort of the same for for all doctors.
(01:32):
It's about 5:00 to six years depending on the program.
And then you need to do 2 years of of general training in the
hospital systems around Australia and then you can apply
to a specialist program. Now there's about, at the time
that I did mine about 26 jobs Australia wide and about four to
500 applicants. So it's pretty competitive,
often takes a couple of years toget your foot in the door.
(01:54):
And then once you are, then you need to go through a five year
training program and, and at theconclusion of several years, you
have these examinations that prove your competence.
And if you don't meet them and you go back and you get the
opportunity to do it again. So it can lengthen out quite a
bit. So in my case it was sort of 12
years to go from not a doctor todermatologist.
(02:16):
OK, so we have the right person in the room for this.
If you could give, say, 2 piecesof advice to women in their 20s
and 30s linked to skin health, what would you tell us?
I think my first answer is goingto be a bit obvious, but it just
needs to be said. Sunscreen, I think it's #1 #2 #3
when it comes to looking after our skin and sun protection.
(02:38):
So if you're not into sunscreen,then you can do it with clothing
and other covers. OK, So you don't have to pick
that one, but it's protecting yourself here in Queensland
especially, and Gold Coast even more so from that UV radiation.
And my second bit of advice is listen to your skin and not
marketing. So when we're talking about skin
(02:58):
health, we're often looking at our bodies and correcting
something that's there. And so if it's not there and you
probably don't need XY or Z, butif you're noticing redness or
you're noticing pigmentation or you're noticing fine lines, OK,
then there is something to correct or improve or to
stimulate your body to do better.
(03:20):
Because unfortunately, we don't have the fountain of youth yet.
And so we need to put these practices into place only when
they're going to be of most utility.
Yeah, interesting. And I guess also embracing who
you are and the skin you're in is is totally fine as well, I
think. We're told that things are, you
(03:40):
know, abnormal to to have XY or Z.
And I, I always tell people thatthe secret to perfection is
imperfection. You need to have something that
makes you human. You need to have a feature that
makes you uniquely you. So you don't want to be totally
airbrushed. We've seen celebrities, you
know, who have these photo shoots and you look at them and
they go, yeah, yeah, they're, they're pretty, they're
(04:00):
handsome, but looks a bit weird.You know, you've got to have
something that makes you feel more authentic.
So correcting a problem 99% of the way is often a smarter move.
Yeah. And I've always find it really
refreshing when you see those pictures of celebrities
completely without makeup, without the lighting, without
the styling, and you're like, oh, they just look like me on a
Sunday morning. Like this is OK.
(04:22):
Exactly. And and that also then makes the
choice of what you want to do about what's bothering you in
your skin a lot easier because you can see that we can improve
at a realistic amount and we don't have to be 100% perfect
because getting 100% perfect comes with additional risks,
costs, time. And I don't think it's healthy
for us to push so hard for that,you know, absolute flawless all
(04:46):
the time. Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, and we all know these people that look as
flawless as possible on the outside, but it's really like
the personality and what's on the inside that just shines
through. Yeah, Yeah.
A. 100%, yeah. But the only thing I will say to
that is that having outward confidence can also be key.
So I do see that there are people who I would classify what
(05:09):
I'm seeing on the skin as a minor concern, but it concerns
them so much that once it's corrected, obviously safely,
then they're just a much more confident person.
So beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you know?
Yeah, that's so true. That's so true.
It must be really rewarding the work that you do.
Oh yeah, no. Skin's very, very rewarding in
that way. There's a video on your website,
(05:29):
and you say on there a line thatI was like, initially when I saw
it, I thought, oof. You say that your favorite skin
condition to treat is cancer. Yeah.
Tell us more about that and why.Yeah.
So it sounds bad, but I feel like when you are dealing with
skin cancers in particular, the number one thing is early
(05:50):
detection and an early detection, it leads to a much
better outcome. So when I'm seeing someone for
their skin cancer checks, then often you can pick it up at such
an early stage that they don't need the surgeries, they don't
need the extensive treatments, They don't need the corrective,
you know, lasers or operations or medical patients.
You can catch it at such a stagethat they can continue to live a
(06:13):
normal life. And that's extremely rewarding.
And equally, there is sometimes when there's a problem that's so
difficult or big, like the big scary word, cancer, that there
are some people who put their head in the sand for a little
while because they're afraid of what that will mean.
And when you're able to walk them through that journey and
go, OK, yeah, this is a problem,but it's all manageable, we can
(06:35):
fix it. This is what you'll look like.
This is what that process will be than just seeing that relief
in their their eyes. That's really rewarding.
And then there's also that you're doing you're doing good.
All of us got into medicine to to do good and I think can't
really do any better good than fix cancer.
Yeah, and Australia often gets the not so glamorous title of
(06:57):
skin Cancer Capital of the world.
What are the stats around that? The.
Stats are terrifying, unfortunately.
Brace yourself. Yeah.
So it's. It's essentially 2 in three
people will be touched by skin cancer in their lifetime, OK.
So that's almost everyone. And then it's a one in 40 to one
in 45 chance of having Melanoma,which as we know is one of our
(07:19):
most deadly cancers. And back to my earlier point,
that we know that virtually all of these are preventable in some
way if we're better with our sunprotection.
But perspective is something we gain as we get a little bit
older. And you have to put in the hard
yards day in and day out in order to get that outcome.
At the moment, we're fighting against so many mixed messages
(07:43):
about what we should be doing about our skin.
You know, there's fear about sunscreen, there's fear about
missing out on vitamin D, there's fear about chemicals,
there's all these food related issues.
And so we don't know who to trust, what we should do, where
the balance is. And I feel like the some
protection issue has gotten so muddled that people don't really
(08:08):
trust that message anymore. And I, I want to be our mission.
Hopefully it'll help that we canstart to instill that back into
people because that's going to be the biggest dividend.
So let's dive into it a little bit then.
I, I hear that the first sort of, is it 7 years of your life
is so foundational as to your skin health.
Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
(08:28):
Yes. So let's talk about how we make
new cells in our body. OK, so let's say that you're a
brand new baby. You, you make one in a billion
errors in DNA replication. Obviously these are round
numbers and take 6 billion replications of DNA to create a
new cell. So you've been born and you're
only really you're making six errors already.
And your body's like, OK, I delete, delete, delete, delete,
(08:49):
delete. But if you get a sunburn, for
example, then that mutation ratejumps and it can jump a
thousandfold. And you don't have a reserve of
stem cells that never age. The next generation of cells is
responsible for making that nextgeneration and so on and so
forth. So we developed these islands on
our body. We call them clonal
abnormalities. So there are these little groups
(09:11):
of abnormal cells that continually make more and more
abnormalities. And it's terrifying when you
think about it. But technically on our body, we
probably have cancer cells in the 10s of thousands at any one
time. And your body is really good at
removing those. But if you start with a heavy
base of damage, AKA you don't look after yourself when you're
a kid, you get burnt. You know, you have a lot of
(09:32):
other environmental exposures like, you know, cigarettes,
other carcinogens, environmentalpollutants.
Then by the time you come to be an adult and you, you go, OK,
well, I want to prioritize thesethings.
You're already working against so many clones of abnormality
that the the amount of work yourbody has to deal with and the
amount of help it will need willbe so much more, which sounds
(09:53):
terrifying, but it's never too late to start.
So as little as three weeks of being fantastic with your sun
exposure, for example, can drop those clonal abnormalities
astoundingly. Amazing at any age at.
Any age, at any age right now, you're still going to be
battling against the mutation rate and then obviously the
proliferation rate in the skin. So how many more cells come?
(10:15):
But it is always a good idea to start right?
And then and then we can, we cango from there.
So just because you had, you know, not the best protection in
the in the childhood, then, you know, you don't have to give up
on the body later in life. But I do, I do think that we, as
I said, spoke about earlier, there's no fountain of youth.
So you can't live your life in atest tube or in a, you know, in
(10:39):
a, in a coddled environment. You need to have some fun.
And it's striking that balance about what what it is that you
want to be dealing with down thetrack and making that conscious
effort. And that's why I think Gen.
Z's probably got their head on straight because they are
looking about these longevity ideas and health for them in the
(10:59):
future is going to be really important.
And they're coming up with, you know, five year, 10 year plans,
sometimes even 20 year plans of what that might look like to the
best of the ability. Yeah, cool.
Yeah. And then I know on my weather
app I can kind of see UV ratingsand stuff, and at the moment I
think it's OK to be outside tillaround 8:30 in the morning or
(11:21):
something and then go back out at 3.
How accurate is that? Look, it's pretty accurate.
I would have commit to, you know, when you get the weather
prediction saying that, hey, look.
Sure. It's going to rain and then you
walk outside and it's not raining.
So it's as accurate as it can bebecause it purely relies on
cloud movement, you know, etcetera.
But it's a pretty good indicatorthat the UV index is when you
(11:42):
should be listening to it or when you shouldn't be listening
to it. And there might be give or take
an hour. So for example, anything below a
UV index of 3 is pretty safe. Anything above the UV index of 3
is going to be, you know, more problematic.
And the more it gets to the range of extreme, which is 11
plus, that's the my God, you know, what are you?
Doing out of the sun, yeah. Now the flip side of that though
(12:05):
is that to produce vitamin D in your skin then you want the UV
index to be above 3. Right.
OK, so I have this analogy of toast.
You want to be like a piece of toast and you know, a little on
one side and a little bit on theother side.
And the larger surface area exposed, the shorter the time
and the sun that you need to getthe vitamin D.
Okay, so the statistics work outat about 17% surface area, which
(12:27):
is like a chest or a back for 5 minutes sort of three times a
week. And we were designed to not have
exposure constantly and be able to store it in our fat.
So in summer when you're outsidea little bit more than you can
actually put reserves that will take you pretty much right
through the winter. It doesn't have to be constant,
(12:48):
you know, and if you're someone who, who has had a diagnosis of
Melanoma, for example, or skin cancer, then these groups are
actually at risk of vitamin D deficiency because they're so
afraid of further sun exposure. So the first 6 to 12 months are
Yep, we get those habits and then we go, OK, now we need to
wind them back to make sure you're going to be healthy long
term because low vitamin D increases your rate of Melanoma,
(13:11):
right? So, but if you are afraid you
can supplement, you know, through through the diet, you
know, there's all sorts of apps that you can get that help you
measure how much vitamin D you should be getting as an intake.
But, you know, simple things like, you know those little
white button mushrooms, right? If you put them into the sun,
they'll absorb the vitamin D foryou.
So you can cook it into your food and get your natural
(13:33):
vitamin D So it doesn't have to be, you know, via dairy if
you're someone who is vegan or vegetarian or just doesn't like
animal products, for example. Yeah.
Oh OK, we're learning so much. I feel like everyone's taking
notes right now on vitamin D supplements.
When I was living in London, I feel like almost every second
person I knew was taking them throughout winter.
And like you said, vitamin D is important.
(13:55):
If someone's looking for a good vitamin D supplement and is
happy to take it in that form, is there any that you'd
recommend or how do we choose one?
It's a difficult question to answer because I always have
this theory that the best one isthe one that you're willing to
take. So I'd say accessibility, right,
taste and repeatability is the most important things and most
(14:16):
supplements are regulated when they make health claims like
vitamin D. So if that's sold in Australia,
for example, I won't have much concern that it's actually
giving you the international units that you know you desire.
OK. But I would always make sure
that it's manufacturing sold kind of on shore.
I think it's probably a good a good way to to go about it.
Yeah. And then you can overdose on
(14:38):
vitamin D, so. What happens if you overdose?
So if you overdose on vitamin D,then you're going to be leaching
calcium out the other way. So you're, you're going to be
sort of stripping it from other areas that are, you know,
supposed to be storing more important minerals because your
body's trying to flush this excess away.
But you have to be working pretty hard at that.
(15:00):
But it does happen. It does happen, yeah.
Okay. And then sunscreen.
Yes. Not all sunscreens are created
equal. Yeah.
What should we be looking for? A good quality sunscreen.
Yeah, not to be a broken record,but one that you'll put on
right. That is the number one thing.
So the market has completely dictated where the industry has
gone, right? We like things that feel nice,
(15:22):
that smell nice, that aren't sticky, that look matte, can sit
under makeup. All these sort of things are
important. And when you make those choices,
I mean, you can say one thing, but your wallet is really what
the industry relies on, then you're going to make some
compromises. So we want the SPF, which
remember is just a multiple. It's a sun protection factor.
(15:44):
It means that if you go into thesun and let's say you have SPF
of one, well, you'll burn, you know, in one minute, for
example, OK, now an SPF of five means that it then takes 5
minutes for you to born because five times whatever that length
is. But often for people who are
exposed to that particular type of radiation, they do these
tests with, you know, they can burn as little as 10 seconds.
(16:04):
So an SPF of 50 plus doesn't give you hours and hours and
hours of protection. And also, SPFS are measured in
labs, not in people, not with heat, not with sweating, not
with wiping, it not being like, oh, you know, I just put a
little bit there because I don'twant it to look white or, or
messy. And so that's why we advocate
for SPF 50 because the higher the protection, theoretically,
(16:27):
by the time you put it on, by the time you miss some areas,
you may be getting anywhere fromSPF 12 to SPF 25 on the skin.
And that sounds bad, but still blocking out 93% of the UV
radiation. So then the most important thing
is reapplication and I say height of summer or you're
outdoors, you're active, every 40 minutes is when you need to
be reapplying it. And if you go, OK, it's
(16:49):
something I need to put on, it'sagain sold and TGA approved in
Australia as the highest SPF that I want to put on and I'm
reapplying every 40 minutes. You're nailing it.
OK. Yeah, I know there's a lot of
talk about different chemicals and products and things like
that. Are there any chemicals that are
used in some screens in Australia that we should be
reading labels and just flat outavoiding?
(17:11):
It's a controversial thing because there's studies that
you're referring to where we're worried about some of the
hormonal changes that come from sunscreens.
Again, they weren't done in people.
They were done in animal models.They were done in, you know, one
particular lab that's on a series of these had a very high
concentrations of particular UVAblockers.
(17:31):
They tested, you know, 6 particular ingredients.
And America and Australia are a little bit different in that
their regulatory approval of different sunscreens is
classified differently. And so these chemicals have been
changed in, in the US since the 90s because it's really hard to
get new sunscreens to be approved.
(17:52):
So these sunscreens that were tested in these studies, they're
usually not in the main mixtures, you know, in, in
modern sunscreens. So, and even then, let's say
even if those studies were true that this is a, a maybe of
having these, these problems versus the known certainty of
not using the sunscreen. But you know, if you really
(18:14):
wanted to avoid all, all chemicals and you were really
worried about this, then well, then it leaves you with your
mineral sunscreens. OK.
So your zincs, your titanium, you know, other, other physical
blockers that sort of reflect some.
But even then there is a chemical reaction that happens
with the zinc and with your skin.
So you're still getting some reaction in the skin, but you're
(18:38):
not going to have those same, you know, endocrine concerns
that we came out in these studies.
And again, I want to clarify this was an animal models in in
mice and rats in particular, andnot in people and extremely high
doses. But you can do those things to
avoid any chemical that you like.
The trade off is, is the thickness.
OK, so now how to get a, A, a mineral sunscreen to provide
(19:01):
that reflection, then it needs to usually be quite thick.
And also they're very fragile. So it needs to be protected in
certain packaging, needs to be handled certain ways,
transported certain ways. And if it's not, then it can
break down. So if you are taking it out of
its packaging, you're squeezing out a little bit to use on the
beach, then that's when you're going to run into trouble with
(19:23):
those physical sunscreens because there's they're not as
stable. Yeah, okay, we've talked a lot
about external appearance, but what role does nutrition play?
Tell me, are there some foods weshould be eating, we should be
avoiding? I'm sure it's unique to
individuals, but is it kind of like some blanket rules that you
would recommend? So there are, and I think we all
(19:46):
know them, right? We just don't want to verbalize
them because they're delicious, right?
But any processed, high sugary foods really aren't great for
our skin, and they were designedas treats.
They just become more mainstreamand we've gone away from cooking
fresh fruits and vegetables. And, you know, one of the most
interesting longevity studies that's been done is that it
turns out gardeners live longer than lots of people.
(20:08):
Yeah, Yeah. Now, for two reasons, right.
The first reason is obviously this exercise involved.
Second reason is most of them grow their own fresh fruit and
vegetables. And just because you grow it
doesn't necessarily mean that's that's health related.
But when you grow something, youinvest time and energy and
you're more likely to eat that thing.
And if you've ever tried your hand at farming, it's not that
(20:29):
easy, right? To do so, you're often growing
your high turnover leafy vegetables.
And the role of, you know, leafyvegetables in our diets is that
it takes all the minerals from the soil and from the atmosphere
and from these complex chemical or reactions and it stores in
the plant. And then we eat that and we
consume these basic minerals. And that's why supplements were
(20:50):
invented because our diets got worse and worse and worse, and
we became deficient and all these things we went, well, you
know, don't have time to do that.
Rather microwave and take XY or Z.
But it's not always absorbed as well, you know, in, in non, you
know, organic matter, you know, whether that's animal protein or
whether that's vegetables. And so I think that's incredibly
important to learn cooking, you know, as a basic skill that
(21:14):
we're all busy and it's hard. But if you learn basic cooking,
then a, you'll go, Oh my God, what have I been eating for the
last, you know, 10 or 15 years? Because I can make it so much
nicer. Helps you hit pocket, right?
Because it's cheaper, you know, fresh fruit and vegetables.
But actually, then you'll have better nutrition for your body.
But even even in that circumstance, there will be
(21:36):
cases where you are going to be low in XY or Z.
And that's where your General practitioner and then, you know,
emerging companies that are ableto do, you know, testing for you
remotely come in because you cango, OK, well, I'm doing all the
right things, but I'm still feeling tired or lethargic or
other things. Am I actually deficient in
something? And you can create a
supplementation plan specifically to go after that,
(21:57):
either with supplements or with food.
Food's always going to be my preference.
And you know, we're always taught like the gut's super
important, right, for your skin.And so 100% true, right?
We inflamed our gut. You know, we're going to have
inflamed skin. It doesn't matter if that's an
autoimmune condition like Crohn's disease or ulcerative
colitis, or it's just, you know,irritable bowel syndrome or
lactose intolerance, gluten intolerance, celiacs disease,
(22:19):
but actually goes the other way too, right?
So if you're not looking after your skin, your epigenetics will
release inflammatory cytokines that can influence your
microbiome in the gut. The other way around.
Right. And we're only just starting
with the tip of the understanding of realizing that,
you know, the skin's the largestorgan, which, you know, is
always a tagline, but actually is an organ and has far more
(22:42):
influence over our bodies than maybe we've ever given credit
for. Yeah.
Amazing. Yeah.
So I think that going forward, you know, environmental
management, pollution, etcetera is going to be super important.
That's fascinating. Yeah, that's really fascinating.
If if you were to give me a shopping list of ash, here's a
few fruits and veggies you should definitely be consuming
(23:04):
if you want glowy skin. What am I buying?
OK, All right. It's controversial.
Red meat, I think, is really important because low iron leads
to so many different problems. And then I would go spinach,
right, because spinach can be cooked up in so many different
ways. It's really high and really
nutrient dense Kale, yes, but not everyone likes the kale.
(23:25):
It's not as accessible. It's a little bit more
expensive. So think of that.
You included those two things asyour, as your foundation, then
you're always going to be on a on a right track, right?
And then you want other essential legumes that can, can
kind of help you out. So things like eggplant, for
example, quite helpful. Citrus fruits are quite helpful
as well with their vitamin C andscolbic acid.
(23:47):
But when you consume those, you're better off to do it in
the evening, for example, because they contain things like
Solomons that make you a bit more sun sensitive, which goes
against the, you know, the vitamin C juice in the morning.
Yeah, yeah. And then obviously you've got
fructose and fruits, so, you know, you've got to be careful
not to overdo the the sugars. And then probably one of my
favorite overlooked foods is beans.
(24:09):
OK. You know, I think it's a great
source of protein. Like a green bean.
Oh, well, so almost like those 33 beans, you know, that you
get, you know, just the the standard ones.
Yeah. I think they've got good protein
in it. They've got good nutrition in
it. They're packed in iron.
They can also have some calcium in it and zinc in it.
So it's a good way to consume things.
It's cheap. It's available mushrooms for the
reasons that I I talked about before with the vitamin D and
(24:31):
the supplementation. And if you're not lactose
intolerant, then adding in some,you know, dairy products.
I'll go with scary milk. Scary milk.
The full cream. OG full cream, cream Crocs,
milk. Yeah, OK.
Because you know, the fat in themilk will help you buffer
against the lactose a little bit.
So you get less gut irritation for it.
You balance that against the calories.
And it's not something you're having all the time, but I think
(24:53):
it's a really good, it's a really good supplement.
Yeah. You know, I think that if you
are going to be avoiding things.That was going to be my next
question, yeah. Because this is always a
difficult conversation to have. The groups that we know that
have the highest yield impact onour diet are always going to be
(25:15):
lactose and gluten, right? And then you've got like
nightshade family plants and andproducts you know can.
You give some like. Sweet potato for examples in
that in that group and those broad categories of foods often
trigger the most amount of inflammation in our gut If
you're sensitive to it. So it's only if you're sensitive
(25:36):
to it. However, if you cut out all
gluten and all lactose and all nightshade families, right, then
you are going to have a very limited diet.
Yeah. And so then you got to go.
OK, well, am I getting enough nutrition?
Because your skin is also, from the body's point of view, one of
the least important organs. So it is the sacrificial lamb.
That's why it's our armor on theoutside.
(25:58):
So if you're nutritionally deficient, it will present with
rashes. It will present with hair loss
or fingernail issues or sensitivity, all these other
sort of things. So yes, avoiding these
ingredients is important for best optimal gut health, but so
long as it's not at the sacrifice of nutrition,
(26:19):
calories, iron, all these other sort of essential building
blocks that we need. Yeah, what impact does stress
have on our skin? Yeah, massive stress is a
hormone, right? So it's a, it's a hormone
release in our body that allows us to deal with circumstances
and go above and beyond what thenormal baseline function of our
(26:41):
bodies is. And so when you're producing
these stress hormones, then it'sgoing to proliferate.
You know, your immune system's going to go on crazy, oil glands
are going to go crazy, angiogenesis is going to go
crazy, which is blood vessel formation.
And all these things present in certain, you know, conditions
like rosacea or an acne, pro inflammatory conditions like
(27:01):
psoriasis and eczema. All of these things will go
crazy the more stressed that we are because it was designed for
a short period fight or flight. But the way that we're living
our lives at the moment is so fast-paced that the levels of
baseline stress in everyone is, is crazy high.
And when I'm going through my, my acne with my younger
(27:22):
demographic, usually my teenage patients, and I'm explaining to
them and their parents about this analogy, I said, well,
look, if you and I, meaning me and the parent went back to
being 16 years old, we wrote down everything we did in a day.
And then we compare it to everything that their child is
doing in a day. Our list will be half, maybe 1/3
of the things that these youngerpeople are doing day in and day
(27:44):
out. Because there's no shut off
anymore, right? You're available 24/7 on your
tablets, You're engaged 24/7. The world expects you to respond
to an e-mail or a phone call. And that base level of stress
amplifies anything else that happens.
So let's say that, yeah, you know, your genetics are like a
lottery ticket. And if your Lotto numbers come
up, you know, a single rice tipsthe scale of that final number.
(28:08):
But the stress acts like giving you, you know, a power hit.
So you guarantee, you know, fouror five year numbers are already
primed. It takes very little then to
stimulate your genetics to present earlier or more severe
forms of whatever it is. And in my world, obviously, skin
diseases. Yeah.
Are you seeing an increase then?Massive, massive increase.
I have a joke right? That the most powerful drug in
(28:30):
the world that I'll be able to prescribe one day will be a
holiday because you see it all the time.
Someone will come in and they golook, mate, you know, skin kiss
is terrible. But you know, when I when I go
off to Japan, you know, it all just goes away and they're
going, you know, it's got to be the Japanese food, the Japanese
weather, the Japanese this and Igo, well, I didn't let me just
(28:50):
go one through. What were you doing over there?
Oh, you know, I was on holidays.I was skiing, I was doing this
and you go, well, you know, I think, I think that's, it's the
shutdown really that makes the biggest difference.
Yeah, obviously there are some things in that environment as
well. But, and I don't know what the
solution is because I don't, I don't think there is one, you
know, to allow us to, to reduce down our cortisol levels.
(29:12):
I don't, I don't have the answerthere, but I think as we get
smarter and with the help of artificial intelligence to
really study our genetics betterand these hormone signaling
pathways which are incredibly complex, maybe we'll map it.
Yeah, I know when people come onthe retreats that we host here
at Rays that they'll say their guts feel better, like all these
(29:34):
things and it's all linked to stress and environment and just
hitting that pause button, that intentional pause, the flow and
effects are huge. Massive, yeah.
And you know, you, if you know, you interview a lot of
successful people, you, you hearthese successful people who have
pushed really, really hard to get to these areas.
And then when they finally sell out or divest and then the pace
(29:56):
just slows down, they become thebiggest advocates for, you know,
balance and, and don't do this and don't do that because you
know, it really does make such an impact.
And when you stop, you finally see it.
Yeah, it's such a tricky 1 though, because I think in
hindsight they all also know that.
They wouldn't have. They wouldn't have.
Got to where they were and like,it drives them as a person and a
(30:18):
human. So it's just we're so complex as
people, like what we want, what we need, what we.
Yeah, Yeah, You have your own skin care brand block.
I know that you've recently rebranded.
They're looking beautiful. Actually, I have one here.
I'm going to show it on camera. Thank you.
Yeah, look, I'm going to show you guys.
It's so pretty. But tell me, besides being
(30:39):
obviously created and approved by dermatologists, which I love,
it gives me a lot of confidence.Like there are so many products
out there on the market that I find it quite overwhelming.
You need to almost become a specialist to read the
ingredients. Me.
Like, do I want this on my skin?Just because they have a lot of
Instagram followers doesn't necessarily mean it's good for
me. But what makes Block special?
The obvious thing is it's formulated by us and it's clinic
(31:01):
proven. So what we mean by that is that
we have seen over 152035 years of collective knowledge of what
works, what doesn't work every, when you can complain about
every trend that's come through and we've distilled that down
and to go, OK, well, these may not be the tip of the spear like
the ingredient was invented yesterday, but they have been
proven, they work and they're simple.
(31:25):
We don't market heavily, you know, via Instagram or via
influences because we think thatthe retention rate speaks for
itself. You know over 70% of people who
pick it up continue to buy the product.
Sorry, wait, 70% retention? Yeah, yeah.
I think any brand listening is like, give me that, OK, that's
huge. So it's, so it's massive.
(31:45):
Thank you. And it's always been an in
clinic thing for us. You know, we currently service
around about 24, 1000 people a year thereabouts and it's always
been kind of enough for us. But in the new generation of of
block, we wanted to export that because when we started in the
skin care journey, it was not a very crowded space and it's
become as you say, an incrediblycrowded space with.
(32:08):
Confusing space. Confusing space with things that
don't work. Brands will pop up, they'll pop
down, they'll be trendy. And the idea behind block?
Was it supposed to be a standard?
So if you use it as a benchmark,then you can compare it to
anything else that you have, youknow, and if you use the product
and it works and you know that is going to be the maximum
(32:30):
efficacy that you can get out ofan over the counter product in
that category. Now this individualization that
comes into that, right? You might not like the sense
that we've picked, you know, youmight not like the feel of it,
but you know that that's the result you should get.
So whatever you pick up after that, it must match it, right?
And if it doesn't match it, thenit's not on par.
And you know, that's, that's where it's gotten to.
(32:51):
Yeah, I love that. And then what kind of products
do you have in the range? So in the range we're starting
with in our new relaunch, we're going on with our proceramides,
we're going on with our moisturizing range, we're going
over our antioxidants, our vitamin C's.
Obviously we're going with our niacinamides.
We're also going with a broader range of cleanses because it
(33:12):
started out as you know probablyacne focus.
And so we're going sort of more for everyone now.
And then coming in the future will be a couple of additional
ones that I can't speak about, but we wanted to get the basics
down. So our basic concerns are
usually hydration, wrinkles, pigmentation and redness.
Okay. So there is one product in every
(33:34):
different category that will tackle that and then there is a
second product that will go across two of those.
So if you go look, I've got bothconcerns and I really don't want
to spend the money buying two different products.
I know that I'll accept 80% of it, but it will do 2 in one.
Well, then we've got you, because these are formulated to
a really, really high, high end.But we are aware that you can't
(33:58):
make a product for everyone and so we don't want to lose the
quality by competing on the lowest price.
Equally. We don't think you need to gouge
someone for it. So it's AI, call it a BMW or
Mercedes, it's not a Rolls Royceor a Ferrari, you know, but it's
a really nice luxury product that you can't afford.
Yeah, gorgeous. And is it for males and females?
1000 females, yeah. So that's the big change I've
(34:23):
seen in in skin care is that menare starting to pick up the
products because it was uncool or unmasculine to pick up
products. And the only thing that I think
is, is different is in in the how you use it.
So you might use it more or lessfrequently.
And then different genders have different desires of how they
(34:45):
want products to feel or smell. OK.
So we've tried to make it as unisex as possible, the happy
medium between the two. But as our patients and as our
clients come back to us, then I do see in the future that we'll
start to have more tailored approaches, more about the feel
and look, not necessarily about the ingredients, right?
(35:07):
Because compliance is the numberone thing.
So we're looking for that feedback and go, OK, what makes
you not use this as much as you should be using it?
And then and then we reiterate. So we're always reiterating
based on that one principle of repeatability, right, usability,
because we know the results are there, right?
Yeah, I love that. And I know that for me, like
(35:29):
whenever I buy any skin care products, it will be in the
bathroom and my partner and Alexwill just end up using whatever
I have anyway. So this is great it.
Is that's it, That's that's the exact thing.
You know, we wanted to be able to pick it up and just use it.
And you know, you can see, for example, you know, we have heavy
moisturizer and we have, you know, Pro B.
So the labeling is very clear aswhat's inside.
(35:52):
And then there's a link back to the website how to use and what
to expect. So if you do pick it up, you can
screenshot it, you can Google itand you know exactly what's in
there. So we wanted to keep that
simplicity. Yeah, really refreshing because
like we said, we live in a very complex world.
Like let's make these things as easy as possible.
Absolutely. Yeah, I know on because I follow
you on Instagram that you're often at these really innovative
(36:15):
like medical conferences and things.
Tell me, what is the future of skin care?
What are you excited about? What's coming?
So I think the number one thing that's going to be coming is
going to be tailored diagnosis, OK, So AI powered tools that
allow you to analyse your own skin and get that information,
you know, at a dermatologist level on your phone.
(36:35):
Yeah, very cool. Thing I would say about that,
that we're not so great at doingis capturing the images required
at home. You know, we have a lot of
patients who will say, look, if you're having this problem, send
us through a photo and it's really wild the amount and
degree of the quality of that photograph.
So we need to work on the technologies that allow us to
capture that. And so I see that maybe for the
(36:58):
next 5 to 10 years that's still going to be an in clinic
experience or you know, an in wherever it is experience.
But then after that, that as thephone technologies and
standardization of photography or even, you know, AI computing
and go, OK, well, you've kind ofhalf taken a photo of your face.
I'll build out the rest of the pixels to go, OK, this is how we
do the analysis. Then I think that's going to be
the biggest thing because that should provide you with the best
(37:21):
information. But it is also going to be a
trust exercise. You know, there's no secret
that'll be used for marketing, you know, those sort of things.
So you want to have some sort ofauthority looking over this and
almost give these apps or applications an app registration
or a qualification that says they're allowed to do that so it
holds them to a minimum standard.
(37:42):
Yep. But it's exciting because we all
want more information at our fingertips and we want it to be
proven and checked. And then the second thing that
will happen is we were speaking earlier before about the before
this podcast started about genetics, OK, And being able to
analyze our DNA to tell us what we should be eating, what's
going to cause us problems and how we might be able to correct
(38:04):
that in the future. So understanding that epigenetic
level, the hard part will be listening to it because
something that will affect you in 30 or 40 years, maybe you
don't want to put in the effort.And then not necessarily in in
skin care initially because it will need to have the kinks work
out. But working on what we call
immunotherapy. So triggering our own bodies
(38:25):
healing mechanisms, our own bodies attack mechanisms to
better heal yourself or even create new stem cells.
I see is going to be the future,the focus.
But at the moment it's a little bit primitive because it can
equally fix your skin cancer butattack your lungs.
So, OK, so so it's not quite safe.
We need a multidisciplinary approach here.
But that will be good because we're just hijacking the most
(38:48):
powerful machine in the world currently our bodies to do
better. And then there'll be a trickle
down effect from these more hardcore medications, ones that
are considered safe to put on the skin to, to signal our
intercellular pathways to do it.But with a crate, right, Not
having to have an infusion or, or, or to take a tablet.
And then you're kind of in control.
(39:09):
And in particular because I likeskin cancer is that we'll have
that same ability to put creams on that feel like moisturizers
that will clear the field with the abnormality for a much
longer period of time than the the basic chemotherapies that we
have now. Amazing.
So a really exciting, innovativefuture coming and it'll be here
before we know it. And it sounds terrible as well,
(39:30):
but there's never been a better time to get sick.
You know, yeah. You know, arguably.
You know, we know so much more. Yeah.
And I, I I'm one of those believers.
And I think that the the person who lives for forever has
already been born. So I think that we're going to
move so quickly in this space, it's going to make a head spin.
Yeah. But it comes with all the
(39:51):
incredible possibilities of count on the youth.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you and your team are
building a pretty epic new headquarters.
What sorts of things can we expect to see there?
So it's our health precinct. So it's our idea of what health
looks like in the future, and it'll be a tech enabled, AI
enabled building that allow us to move into that diagnostic
(40:14):
space, not just for skin, but hopefully lots of other
conditions at the same time. But then going back to, OK,
well, how do you engage someone when there's so much distrust?
So it's about building a community around that precinct
and involving other practitioners, other allied
health, where we can build a health conscious community,
(40:35):
engage them not just in the not fun things, but also the fun
things. Yeah.
Teach them about their bodies, their skin, what to expect, how
to manage it, and then enable the choice to act on those
things if they want. And I think that's a really
beautiful hybrid because in thisworld of AI and tech, I think
we're also craving human connection more than ever.
(40:56):
So to be able to fuse those two worlds together absolutely is
really special. Yeah.
It's, it's a terrifyingly exciting future because I think
we're all worried about where technology will replace us and
where our role fits into that. But I'm, I'm a very optimistic
view. I think that the entirety of our
(41:17):
being will go down to, to this being able to slow down, look
someone in the eyes, let the technology do all the difficult
things in the background and just hold someone's hand and say
it's OK. Yeah, you know, and then also,
this is your journey. What do you want to do?
You know, there's no limits anymore about how long you can
live, how you can live, how healthy you'll be.
(41:40):
Yeah, it's bright. I can feel your energy just like
buzzing. Let's do this.
That's so good. Tell me, is this true?
Yes. Are we already living in the
future with this aspect? Are there some scanning machines
for skin cancers that already exist and can kind of map on a
regular basis? What's happening there?
So do they work? Ah.
So there are, so there are, there's there's two things that
we need to understand. There's the health aspect and
(42:02):
there's the economic aspect as well.
OK, So these machines are do exist and they're great
technology, but they're super expensive, OK.
And at the moment we still need to prove that the results are
reliable enough to let them, youknow, wild and free.
So they are mostly in the research phase, but our belief
(42:23):
is that that's the way that we should be moving towards that
technology. There is also the functionality,
let's say that all skin checks, you know, around Australia move
to, to these models. Well, you can have a machine,
but it can only really look at someone every 15 to 20 minutes
because you still need to get undressed or dressed.
(42:43):
There's, there's still not a great way to undress someone
without taking off their clothes.
You have to bring them into the room.
You have to explain how to standat the moment.
It needs to be very static. So if you've ever had an MRI or
an X-ray that's like hold still.And so the machine then needs to
stitch all these images together, okay?
And then it needs to process that needs to go back to a data
bank that it has. And what we're seeing at the
(43:04):
moment is that a lot of these data sets are very, very biased.
So it's good at picking up, you know, something in an, in an
artificial database, but in the real world, sometimes it's
missing a few things. And then we need to work on
special areas like OK, hands andfeet and scalp.
How do we quickly look at those areas which we have to move
(43:24):
stuff out of the way and machines can't currently do
that. The other part about it is that
it relies on 2 images taken at once to get a really quick idea.
So there's this distance, right?But in dermatology, we often
rely on something called dermoscopy, just using a little
tiny magnifying device that's put exactly on the skin to
detect special patterns. At the moment, it's quite
(43:46):
laborious to go, OK, everyone needs to be mapped with this
extra device because it physically has to be put onto
the skin. But if we can work out either a
quick way for the machine to identify which one should or
shouldn't have this or a imaging, you know, device that
allows us to take that level a photograph from the very
beginning. And that's when the leap will
(44:07):
come. And with mass adoption.
But at the moment, it's still going to be much more economic
for someone to get a skin check with their dermatologist or
their their skin care provider. Because you know, you don't have
to rely on the $1,000,000 of machinery and in order to, to,
to make that happen. And some our hope is that some
of the technologies that we're working on will bring down the
(44:28):
cost of these $1,000,000 machines to $35,000 or $60,000,
which then becomes something that you can scale.
And we did this, this math, I think we need about 2500, 2008
hundred of these machines Australia wide in order to, you
know, see everybody. Yeah, because.
How frequently should we be doing?
(44:49):
That's another. That's another question.
Yeah. So we want to see someone's skin
as often as it takes to detect early changes and prevent really
serious outcomes. And what I mean by that is that
let's say Melanoma, for example,can mutate the rate of a or grow
at the rate of a millimetre every six months.
And Melanoma is dangerous not when it's wider, but when it's
deeper. And so if you didn't have it
(45:11):
today and tomorrow it started, if I saw you in six months, then
it's going to be less than a millimeter in thickness, which
arguably should be still quite safe to treat.
So if there's a risk of Melanoma, we want to be seeing
someone, you know, at least every six months, right?
But with other skin cancers, then most of them are not deadly
in their early stages, OK, And they can grow for a little while
(45:34):
quite safely. Yes, they need to be attended
to. But if you didn't pick it up for
two months or three months or even 6 months in circumstances,
the outcome will still be the same.
There might be a slightly different cosmetic outcome, but
the outcome in terms of, you know, you living and your
morbidity, mortality, that's exactly the same.
So we say annual to scoop up twoor three things, but you can be
checked as often as you like depending on how quickly you
(45:56):
want to pick up something. But if you you're seeing a
human, you don't want to see someone too frequently because
our eyes need to see changes over a longer period of time to
really pick up that. So unless it's a very bad
Melanoma, which you know would be every three to four months,
I'd say most people, the six months would be the earliest
(46:16):
intervention that you should pick.
And 12 months is a really good time frame for for most
practitioners. And so this is when the machines
will be better than us when theycome in, because they'll pick up
even earlier details, right? Maybe not as subtle, but they'll
pick up the earlier changes. Now, the only other thing that I
would say about that is that it doesn't matter who you saw.
(46:37):
It could be me, it could be God themselves, but if you notice
anything on your own body, whether it's a week, a day, a
month, you always go back and get it checked out.
So what are we looking for in that situation?
So you're looking for something that is what we call the ugly
duckling sign, something that your gut instinct says.
This is not right for me becausegut instinct is pattern
(46:59):
recognition. We can't verbalize, right?
So that's what it is. So your body is recognizing as a
change here. Always listen to it.
Then there are the obvious things that if if you're trying
to measure, I've got a million moles, what mole looks a bit
weirder than another? More than two colors growing in
One Direction, sudden changes, persistent symptoms.
So that can be persistent itch, persistent pain, anything that
(47:22):
bleeds. When it comes to our
keratinocyte cancers. So this is what is this squamous
cell carcinoma, basal cell carcinoma.
These are skin cancers of the higher layer of the skin.
So I should say that all skin cancers are named after the
layer of the skin that they growfrom.
From. Yeah.
So you've got squamous, which isthe highest, most layer of the
skin. Then you have basal, which is a
(47:42):
little bit lower than you have Melanoma, melanocytes, a little
bit lower than that. And then you have rarer things
like Merkel cell carcinoma, which doesn't get a big shout
out, but it's one of our most deadly forms of skin cancers.
And so rapid growth is somethingto look out for.
And then if it bleeds in the rest of the skin cancer
(48:02):
categories, it's really, really important.
Anything that is painful, right,you know, you want to get
checked out. And so the good news about basal
cell carcinoma and squamous cellcarcinoma, which is our two most
a common skin cancers here in Australia, then you at some
point you're going to notice it,right?
So and unless it's squamous, basal is locally destructive.
(48:26):
So it eats and it eats and it eats.
And then on faces, you know, or delicate areas where a lot more
gung ho about managing it because we know the consequence
of eating, you know, into the eye or into the nose or into the
lip. But the reality is if it was on
a shoulder and it was taking a while to grow, then the real
consequences is just cosmetic lines after that, you know,
you're not going to lose important structures.
(48:47):
So if you can't get in for a skin check because you live too
far away and you know, you don'tdon't feel like you're going to
be punished, you know, for having left it a couple of
months. But if it's got brown colour to
it and it's rapidly growing thatI'd always just put panic
stations on that because you're more likely to have a Melanoma
(49:08):
with those sort of features. And I've seen it before where
people have said, hey, look off,it's a basal cell carcinoma,
don't worry about it. And then you get them in you go
actually, you know, this is not,it's probably a Melanoma.
So, you know, the caveat to whatI said is that, you know,
anything can look like anything.And so always get it checked
out. But if you've been told you have
a basal cell carcinoma, you do have time to look after it.
(49:29):
You don't have to tip your Weld upside down tomorrow.
Yeah, earlier means smaller, butstill good outcome.
And with squamous cell carcinoma, that's generally the
same. However, there are some danger
sites with a squamous cell carcinoma like noses, lips,
eyelids, ears, where it has metastatic potential.
And this means that it goes fromwhere it is to all around the
(49:49):
body and it can be sort of deadly.
So if you have a cancer, I will say all cancers in those areas,
get them looked at ASAP. And then if it's anywhere else
on the body and you're not worried about Melanoma, then you
have a little bit more time, butyou don't know what you're
looking at. And so if you're sitting there
at home going, I'm pretty sure that's a skin cancer.
(50:10):
Don't sit on it. Yeah.
But if your appointment for a skin check was a month away, I
don't think that'll make a difference, Right?
Yeah. And it can take a while.
I know dermatologists are in high demand in Australia so it
can take a while to get into a dermatologist but going to see
AGP as a first protocol if you're worried.
And, and This is why I think that a collaborative approach in
medicine is, is so important because there are not enough
(50:33):
specialists until we create themwithout official intelligence to
go around. And so we need generalists who
have an interest in skin in order to fill that gap and void
because you practice your best medicine when you love
something, right? That's true.
And so when you find a General practitioner that has a real
interest in skin and there's a really good place to start.
(50:53):
And I think they're always goingto have your best interest in
mind. And so when they see someone
who's complex or difficult, or they know the aesthetic outcome
could be better in doing it another way, then they're going
to send you to the specialists. And we have good relationships
with our general practitioners. And if they're ever worried or
concerned, they think you need that care, then that's that's
(51:13):
when they'll refer on. That's great to know.
If someone is at the Gold Coast,obviously they can click the
links that gonna put in the shownotes and come and see you.
If they're somewhere else in Australia and can't travel to
the Gold Coast, what's the best way to find a dermatologist in
their area that they can trust? So if you go on to the
Australasian College of Dermatologies website gives you
(51:34):
a list of all the practitioners and where they're practicing.
But the reality is most of us Google.
Yeah, yeah. And if you Google
dermatologists, wherever you are, then the nearest one will
pop up. But I would say the, the best
way to go about it is to go to that General practitioner that
the GP in your area that has, you know, your trust for other
(51:55):
health concerns and ask them, right?
Where are your relationships? Who do you send to?
You know, who can I get in to see if you do have those
concerns? And then Mike, look, mate,
you're low risk. Let's do your skin check now.
I don't think you need one. But if we see anything that's
worrying or concerning, the morereferral on and that will make
it a lot more, more streamlined.So I'd say start there.
Start there. Yeah, yeah.
(52:16):
Great. Andrew, this conversation has
been fascinating. I think everyone has learnt a
lot. I will link in the show notes to
block skin care, to the skin centre, to you, all the good
stuff. But is there anything we haven't
spoken about that you wish more people knew?
Well, my final message is West Sunscreen.
You know, I think I just got to leave it at that.
(52:36):
But no, this has been great. Thank you for letting me
verbalize my advice. Yeah.
No, thank you. We really appreciate it.
It's been great to have you here.
Great to be here. Thanks, Ash.
Hello and welcome back to Reset.I have a special guest with me
today. He is one of Australia's
favorite dermatologists. His name is Doctor Andrew
Freeman, and we are going to be diving deep into all things skin
health. Andrew, welcome to Reset.
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Ash.
It's great to be here. Yeah, so good to have you in the
studio. Let's start from the beginning
(00:25):
though. What is a dermatologist and when
should people come to see a dermatologist instead of their
GP or say a beautician or something like that?
Yep. OK, well, first thing to say is
a dermatologist is a specialist medical doctor.
So this is someone who's chosen their career to be purely skin.
So after you become a doctor here in Australia, then we
usually diverge into different types of speciality, cardiology
(00:48):
or the heart or bone. And in dermatology, it's all
skin. And so that's the skin we think
of, but it's also hair and nailsand everything related to those
conditions. And so when you're picking a
dermatologist, you're really going to see someone when you
need expert care in that particular field.
So in this case, skin, if you'reseeing your General
practitioner, I think that's an excellent place to start when
you need general advice about what's happening.
(01:10):
Who should I see? How should I get started?
And I think then if the simple things aren't working or the
initial plan isn't working in whatever field you're trying to
improve when it comes to your health, then I think that's when
you need to seek the specialist and in this case, dermatologist.
Yeah, nice. That sounds like a little study.
How many years that uni did you spend?
So university is sort of the same for for all doctors.
(01:32):
It's about 5:00 to six years depending on the program.
And then you need to do 2 years of of general training in the
hospital systems around Australia and then you can apply
to a specialist program. Now there's about, at the time
that I did mine about 26 jobs Australia wide and about four to
500 applicants. So it's pretty competitive,
often takes a couple of years toget your foot in the door.
(01:54):
And then once you are, then you need to go through a five year
training program and, and at theconclusion of several years, you
have these examinations that prove your competence.
And if you don't meet them and you go back and you get the
opportunity to do it again. So it can lengthen out quite a
bit. So in my case it was sort of 12
years to go from not a doctor todermatologist.
(02:16):
OK, so we have the right person in the room for this.
If you could give, say, 2 piecesof advice to women in their 20s
and 30s linked to skin health, what would you tell us?
I think my first answer is goingto be a bit obvious, but it just
needs to be said. Sunscreen, I think it's #1 #2 #3
when it comes to looking after our skin and sun protection.
(02:38):
So if you're not into sunscreen,then you can do it with clothing
and other covers. OK, So you don't have to pick
that one, but it's protecting yourself here in Queensland
especially, and Gold Coast even more so from that UV radiation.
And my second bit of advice is listen to your skin and not
marketing. So when we're talking about skin
(02:58):
health, we're often looking at our bodies and correcting
something that's there. And so if it's not there and you
probably don't need XY or Z, butif you're noticing redness or
you're noticing pigmentation or you're noticing fine lines, OK,
then there is something to correct or improve or to
stimulate your body to do better.
(03:20):
Because unfortunately, we don't have the fountain of youth yet.
And so we need to put these practices into place only when
they're going to be of most utility.
Yeah, interesting. And I guess also embracing who
you are and the skin you're in is is totally fine as well, I
think. We're told that things are, you
(03:40):
know, abnormal to to have XY or Z.
And I, I always tell people thatthe secret to perfection is
imperfection. You need to have something that
makes you human. You need to have a feature that
makes you uniquely you. So you don't want to be totally
airbrushed. We've seen celebrities, you
know, who have these photo shoots and you look at them and
they go, yeah, yeah, they're, they're pretty, they're
(04:00):
handsome, but looks a bit weird.You know, you've got to have
something that makes you feel more authentic.
So correcting a problem 99% of the way is often a smarter move.
Yeah. And I've always find it really
refreshing when you see those pictures of celebrities
completely without makeup, without the lighting, without
the styling, and you're like, oh, they just look like me on a
Sunday morning. Like this is OK.
(04:22):
Exactly. And and that also then makes the
choice of what you want to do about what's bothering you in
your skin a lot easier because you can see that we can improve
at a realistic amount and we don't have to be 100% perfect
because getting 100% perfect comes with additional risks,
costs, time. And I don't think it's healthy
for us to push so hard for that,you know, absolute flawless all
(04:46):
the time. Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, and we all know these people that look as
flawless as possible on the outside, but it's really like
the personality and what's on the inside that just shines
through. Yeah, Yeah.
A. 100%, yeah. But the only thing I will say to
that is that having outward confidence can also be key.
So I do see that there are people who I would classify what
(05:09):
I'm seeing on the skin as a minor concern, but it concerns
them so much that once it's corrected, obviously safely,
then they're just a much more confident person.
So beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you know?
Yeah, that's so true. That's so true.
It must be really rewarding the work that you do.
Oh yeah, no. Skin's very, very rewarding in
that way. There's a video on your website,
(05:29):
and you say on there a line thatI was like, initially when I saw
it, I thought, oof. You say that your favorite skin
condition to treat is cancer. Yeah.
Tell us more about that and why.Yeah.
So it sounds bad, but I feel like when you are dealing with
skin cancers in particular, the number one thing is early
(05:50):
detection and an early detection, it leads to a much
better outcome. So when I'm seeing someone for
their skin cancer checks, then often you can pick it up at such
an early stage that they don't need the surgeries, they don't
need the extensive treatments, They don't need the corrective,
you know, lasers or operations or medical patients.
You can catch it at such a stagethat they can continue to live a
(06:13):
normal life. And that's extremely rewarding.
And equally, there is sometimes when there's a problem that's so
difficult or big, like the big scary word, cancer, that there
are some people who put their head in the sand for a little
while because they're afraid of what that will mean.
And when you're able to walk them through that journey and
go, OK, yeah, this is a problem,but it's all manageable, we can
(06:35):
fix it. This is what you'll look like.
This is what that process will be than just seeing that relief
in their their eyes. That's really rewarding.
And then there's also that you're doing you're doing good.
All of us got into medicine to to do good and I think can't
really do any better good than fix cancer.
Yeah, and Australia often gets the not so glamorous title of
(06:57):
skin Cancer Capital of the world.
What are the stats around that? The.
Stats are terrifying, unfortunately.
Brace yourself. Yeah.
So it's. It's essentially 2 in three
people will be touched by skin cancer in their lifetime, OK.
So that's almost everyone. And then it's a one in 40 to one
in 45 chance of having Melanoma,which as we know is one of our
(07:19):
most deadly cancers. And back to my earlier point,
that we know that virtually all of these are preventable in some
way if we're better with our sunprotection.
But perspective is something we gain as we get a little bit
older. And you have to put in the hard
yards day in and day out in order to get that outcome.
At the moment, we're fighting against so many mixed messages
(07:43):
about what we should be doing about our skin.
You know, there's fear about sunscreen, there's fear about
missing out on vitamin D, there's fear about chemicals,
there's all these food related issues.
And so we don't know who to trust, what we should do, where
the balance is. And I feel like the some
protection issue has gotten so muddled that people don't really
(08:08):
trust that message anymore. And I, I want to be our mission.
Hopefully it'll help that we canstart to instill that back into
people because that's going to be the biggest dividend.
So let's dive into it a little bit then.
I, I hear that the first sort of, is it 7 years of your life
is so foundational as to your skin health.
Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
(08:28):
Yes. So let's talk about how we make
new cells in our body. OK, so let's say that you're a
brand new baby. You, you make one in a billion
errors in DNA replication. Obviously these are round
numbers and take 6 billion replications of DNA to create a
new cell. So you've been born and you're
only really you're making six errors already.
And your body's like, OK, I delete, delete, delete, delete,
(08:49):
delete. But if you get a sunburn, for
example, then that mutation ratejumps and it can jump a
thousandfold. And you don't have a reserve of
stem cells that never age. The next generation of cells is
responsible for making that nextgeneration and so on and so
forth. So we developed these islands on
our body. We call them clonal
abnormalities. So there are these little groups
(09:11):
of abnormal cells that continually make more and more
abnormalities. And it's terrifying when you
think about it. But technically on our body, we
probably have cancer cells in the 10s of thousands at any one
time. And your body is really good at
removing those. But if you start with a heavy
base of damage, AKA you don't look after yourself when you're
a kid, you get burnt. You know, you have a lot of
(09:32):
other environmental exposures like, you know, cigarettes,
other carcinogens, environmentalpollutants.
Then by the time you come to be an adult and you, you go, OK,
well, I want to prioritize thesethings.
You're already working against so many clones of abnormality
that the the amount of work yourbody has to deal with and the
amount of help it will need willbe so much more, which sounds
(09:53):
terrifying, but it's never too late to start.
So as little as three weeks of being fantastic with your sun
exposure, for example, can drop those clonal abnormalities
astoundingly. Amazing at any age at.
Any age, at any age right now, you're still going to be
battling against the mutation rate and then obviously the
proliferation rate in the skin. So how many more cells come?
(10:15):
But it is always a good idea to start right?
And then and then we can, we cango from there.
So just because you had, you know, not the best protection in
the in the childhood, then, you know, you don't have to give up
on the body later in life. But I do, I do think that we, as
I said, spoke about earlier, there's no fountain of youth.
So you can't live your life in atest tube or in a, you know, in
(10:39):
a, in a coddled environment. You need to have some fun.
And it's striking that balance about what what it is that you
want to be dealing with down thetrack and making that conscious
effort. And that's why I think Gen.
Z's probably got their head on straight because they are
looking about these longevity ideas and health for them in the
(10:59):
future is going to be really important.
And they're coming up with, you know, five year, 10 year plans,
sometimes even 20 year plans of what that might look like to the
best of the ability. Yeah, cool.
Yeah. And then I know on my weather
app I can kind of see UV ratingsand stuff, and at the moment I
think it's OK to be outside tillaround 8:30 in the morning or
(11:21):
something and then go back out at 3.
How accurate is that? Look, it's pretty accurate.
I would have commit to, you know, when you get the weather
prediction saying that, hey, look.
Sure. It's going to rain and then you
walk outside and it's not raining.
So it's as accurate as it can bebecause it purely relies on
cloud movement, you know, etcetera.
But it's a pretty good indicatorthat the UV index is when you
(11:42):
should be listening to it or when you shouldn't be listening
to it. And there might be give or take
an hour. So for example, anything below a
UV index of 3 is pretty safe. Anything above the UV index of 3
is going to be, you know, more problematic.
And the more it gets to the range of extreme, which is 11
plus, that's the my God, you know, what are you?
Doing out of the sun, yeah. Now the flip side of that though
(12:05):
is that to produce vitamin D in your skin then you want the UV
index to be above 3. Right.
OK, so I have this analogy of toast.
You want to be like a piece of toast and you know, a little on
one side and a little bit on theother side.
And the larger surface area exposed, the shorter the time
and the sun that you need to getthe vitamin D.
Okay, so the statistics work outat about 17% surface area, which
(12:27):
is like a chest or a back for 5 minutes sort of three times a
week. And we were designed to not have
exposure constantly and be able to store it in our fat.
So in summer when you're outsidea little bit more than you can
actually put reserves that will take you pretty much right
through the winter. It doesn't have to be constant,
(12:48):
you know, and if you're someone who, who has had a diagnosis of
Melanoma, for example, or skin cancer, then these groups are
actually at risk of vitamin D deficiency because they're so
afraid of further sun exposure. So the first 6 to 12 months are
Yep, we get those habits and then we go, OK, now we need to
wind them back to make sure you're going to be healthy long
term because low vitamin D increases your rate of Melanoma,
(13:11):
right? So, but if you are afraid you
can supplement, you know, through through the diet, you
know, there's all sorts of apps that you can get that help you
measure how much vitamin D you should be getting as an intake.
But, you know, simple things like, you know those little
white button mushrooms, right? If you put them into the sun,
they'll absorb the vitamin D foryou.
So you can cook it into your food and get your natural
(13:33):
vitamin D So it doesn't have to be, you know, via dairy if
you're someone who is vegan or vegetarian or just doesn't like
animal products, for example. Yeah.
Oh OK, we're learning so much. I feel like everyone's taking
notes right now on vitamin D supplements.
When I was living in London, I feel like almost every second
person I knew was taking them throughout winter.
And like you said, vitamin D is important.
(13:55):
If someone's looking for a good vitamin D supplement and is
happy to take it in that form, is there any that you'd
recommend or how do we choose one?
It's a difficult question to answer because I always have
this theory that the best one isthe one that you're willing to
take. So I'd say accessibility, right,
taste and repeatability is the most important things and most
(14:16):
supplements are regulated when they make health claims like
vitamin D. So if that's sold in Australia,
for example, I won't have much concern that it's actually
giving you the international units that you know you desire.
OK. But I would always make sure
that it's manufacturing sold kind of on shore.
I think it's probably a good a good way to to go about it.
Yeah. And then you can overdose on
(14:38):
vitamin D, so. What happens if you overdose?
So if you overdose on vitamin D,then you're going to be leaching
calcium out the other way. So you're, you're going to be
sort of stripping it from other areas that are, you know,
supposed to be storing more important minerals because your
body's trying to flush this excess away.
But you have to be working pretty hard at that.
(15:00):
But it does happen. It does happen, yeah.
Okay. And then sunscreen.
Yes. Not all sunscreens are created
equal. Yeah.
What should we be looking for? A good quality sunscreen.
Yeah, not to be a broken record,but one that you'll put on
right. That is the number one thing.
So the market has completely dictated where the industry has
gone, right? We like things that feel nice,
(15:22):
that smell nice, that aren't sticky, that look matte, can sit
under makeup. All these sort of things are
important. And when you make those choices,
I mean, you can say one thing, but your wallet is really what
the industry relies on, then you're going to make some
compromises. So we want the SPF, which
remember is just a multiple. It's a sun protection factor.
(15:44):
It means that if you go into thesun and let's say you have SPF
of one, well, you'll burn, you know, in one minute, for
example, OK, now an SPF of five means that it then takes 5
minutes for you to born because five times whatever that length
is. But often for people who are
exposed to that particular type of radiation, they do these
tests with, you know, they can burn as little as 10 seconds.
(16:04):
So an SPF of 50 plus doesn't give you hours and hours and
hours of protection. And also, SPFS are measured in
labs, not in people, not with heat, not with sweating, not
with wiping, it not being like, oh, you know, I just put a
little bit there because I don'twant it to look white or, or
messy. And so that's why we advocate
for SPF 50 because the higher the protection, theoretically,
(16:27):
by the time you put it on, by the time you miss some areas,
you may be getting anywhere fromSPF 12 to SPF 25 on the skin.
And that sounds bad, but still blocking out 93% of the UV
radiation. So then the most important thing
is reapplication and I say height of summer or you're
outdoors, you're active, every 40 minutes is when you need to
be reapplying it. And if you go, OK, it's
(16:49):
something I need to put on, it'sagain sold and TGA approved in
Australia as the highest SPF that I want to put on and I'm
reapplying every 40 minutes. You're nailing it.
OK. Yeah, I know there's a lot of
talk about different chemicals and products and things like
that. Are there any chemicals that are
used in some screens in Australia that we should be
reading labels and just flat outavoiding?
(17:11):
It's a controversial thing because there's studies that
you're referring to where we're worried about some of the
hormonal changes that come from sunscreens.
Again, they weren't done in people.
They were done in animal models.They were done in, you know, one
particular lab that's on a series of these had a very high
concentrations of particular UVAblockers.
(17:31):
They tested, you know, 6 particular ingredients.
And America and Australia are a little bit different in that
their regulatory approval of different sunscreens is
classified differently. And so these chemicals have been
changed in, in the US since the 90s because it's really hard to
get new sunscreens to be approved.
(17:52):
So these sunscreens that were tested in these studies, they're
usually not in the main mixtures, you know, in, in
modern sunscreens. So, and even then, let's say
even if those studies were true that this is a, a maybe of
having these, these problems versus the known certainty of
not using the sunscreen. But you know, if you really
(18:14):
wanted to avoid all, all chemicals and you were really
worried about this, then well, then it leaves you with your
mineral sunscreens. OK.
So your zincs, your titanium, you know, other, other physical
blockers that sort of reflect some.
But even then there is a chemical reaction that happens
with the zinc and with your skin.
So you're still getting some reaction in the skin, but you're
(18:38):
not going to have those same, you know, endocrine concerns
that we came out in these studies.
And again, I want to clarify this was an animal models in in
mice and rats in particular, andnot in people and extremely high
doses. But you can do those things to
avoid any chemical that you like.
The trade off is, is the thickness.
OK, so now how to get a, A, a mineral sunscreen to provide
(19:01):
that reflection, then it needs to usually be quite thick.
And also they're very fragile. So it needs to be protected in
certain packaging, needs to be handled certain ways,
transported certain ways. And if it's not, then it can
break down. So if you are taking it out of
its packaging, you're squeezing out a little bit to use on the
beach, then that's when you're going to run into trouble with
(19:23):
those physical sunscreens because there's they're not as
stable. Yeah, okay, we've talked a lot
about external appearance, but what role does nutrition play?
Tell me, are there some foods weshould be eating, we should be
avoiding? I'm sure it's unique to
individuals, but is it kind of like some blanket rules that you
would recommend? So there are, and I think we all
(19:46):
know them, right? We just don't want to verbalize
them because they're delicious, right?
But any processed, high sugary foods really aren't great for
our skin, and they were designedas treats.
They just become more mainstreamand we've gone away from cooking
fresh fruits and vegetables. And, you know, one of the most
interesting longevity studies that's been done is that it
turns out gardeners live longer than lots of people.
(20:08):
Yeah, Yeah. Now, for two reasons, right.
The first reason is obviously this exercise involved.
Second reason is most of them grow their own fresh fruit and
vegetables. And just because you grow it
doesn't necessarily mean that's that's health related.
But when you grow something, youinvest time and energy and
you're more likely to eat that thing.
And if you've ever tried your hand at farming, it's not that
(20:29):
easy, right? To do so, you're often growing
your high turnover leafy vegetables.
And the role of, you know, leafyvegetables in our diets is that
it takes all the minerals from the soil and from the atmosphere
and from these complex chemical or reactions and it stores in
the plant. And then we eat that and we
consume these basic minerals. And that's why supplements were
(20:50):
invented because our diets got worse and worse and worse, and
we became deficient and all these things we went, well, you
know, don't have time to do that.
Rather microwave and take XY or Z.
But it's not always absorbed as well, you know, in, in non, you
know, organic matter, you know, whether that's animal protein or
whether that's vegetables. And so I think that's incredibly
important to learn cooking, you know, as a basic skill that
(21:14):
we're all busy and it's hard. But if you learn basic cooking,
then a, you'll go, Oh my God, what have I been eating for the
last, you know, 10 or 15 years? Because I can make it so much
nicer. Helps you hit pocket, right?
Because it's cheaper, you know, fresh fruit and vegetables.
But actually, then you'll have better nutrition for your body.
But even even in that circumstance, there will be
(21:36):
cases where you are going to be low in XY or Z.
And that's where your General practitioner and then, you know,
emerging companies that are ableto do, you know, testing for you
remotely come in because you cango, OK, well, I'm doing all the
right things, but I'm still feeling tired or lethargic or
other things. Am I actually deficient in
something? And you can create a
supplementation plan specifically to go after that,
(21:57):
either with supplements or with food.
Food's always going to be my preference.
And you know, we're always taught like the gut's super
important, right, for your skin.And so 100% true, right?
We inflamed our gut. You know, we're going to have
inflamed skin. It doesn't matter if that's an
autoimmune condition like Crohn's disease or ulcerative
colitis, or it's just, you know,irritable bowel syndrome or
lactose intolerance, gluten intolerance, celiacs disease,
(22:19):
but actually goes the other way too, right?
So if you're not looking after your skin, your epigenetics will
release inflammatory cytokines that can influence your
microbiome in the gut. The other way around.
Right. And we're only just starting
with the tip of the understanding of realizing that,
you know, the skin's the largestorgan, which, you know, is
always a tagline, but actually is an organ and has far more
(22:42):
influence over our bodies than maybe we've ever given credit
for. Yeah.
Amazing. Yeah.
So I think that going forward, you know, environmental
management, pollution, etcetera is going to be super important.
That's fascinating. Yeah, that's really fascinating.
If if you were to give me a shopping list of ash, here's a
few fruits and veggies you should definitely be consuming
(23:04):
if you want glowy skin. What am I buying?
OK, All right. It's controversial.
Red meat, I think, is really important because low iron leads
to so many different problems. And then I would go spinach,
right, because spinach can be cooked up in so many different
ways. It's really high and really
nutrient dense Kale, yes, but not everyone likes the kale.
(23:25):
It's not as accessible. It's a little bit more
expensive. So think of that.
You included those two things asyour, as your foundation, then
you're always going to be on a on a right track, right?
And then you want other essential legumes that can, can
kind of help you out. So things like eggplant, for
example, quite helpful. Citrus fruits are quite helpful
as well with their vitamin C andscolbic acid.
(23:47):
But when you consume those, you're better off to do it in
the evening, for example, because they contain things like
Solomons that make you a bit more sun sensitive, which goes
against the, you know, the vitamin C juice in the morning.
Yeah, yeah. And then obviously you've got
fructose and fruits, so, you know, you've got to be careful
not to overdo the the sugars. And then probably one of my
favorite overlooked foods is beans.
(24:09):
OK. You know, I think it's a great
source of protein. Like a green bean.
Oh, well, so almost like those 33 beans, you know, that you
get, you know, just the the standard ones.
Yeah. I think they've got good protein
in it. They've got good nutrition in
it. They're packed in iron.
They can also have some calcium in it and zinc in it.
So it's a good way to consume things.
It's cheap. It's available mushrooms for the
reasons that I I talked about before with the vitamin D and
(24:31):
the supplementation. And if you're not lactose
intolerant, then adding in some,you know, dairy products.
I'll go with scary milk. Scary milk.
The full cream. OG full cream, cream Crocs,
milk. Yeah, OK.
Because you know, the fat in themilk will help you buffer
against the lactose a little bit.
So you get less gut irritation for it.
You balance that against the calories.
And it's not something you're having all the time, but I think
(24:53):
it's a really good, it's a really good supplement.
Yeah. You know, I think that if you
are going to be avoiding things.That was going to be my next
question, yeah. Because this is always a
difficult conversation to have. The groups that we know that
have the highest yield impact onour diet are always going to be
(25:15):
lactose and gluten, right? And then you've got like
nightshade family plants and andproducts you know can.
You give some like. Sweet potato for examples in
that in that group and those broad categories of foods often
trigger the most amount of inflammation in our gut If
you're sensitive to it. So it's only if you're sensitive
(25:36):
to it. However, if you cut out all
gluten and all lactose and all nightshade families, right, then
you are going to have a very limited diet.
Yeah. And so then you got to go.
OK, well, am I getting enough nutrition?
Because your skin is also, from the body's point of view, one of
the least important organs. So it is the sacrificial lamb.
That's why it's our armor on theoutside.
(25:58):
So if you're nutritionally deficient, it will present with
rashes. It will present with hair loss
or fingernail issues or sensitivity, all these other
sort of things. So yes, avoiding these
ingredients is important for best optimal gut health, but so
long as it's not at the sacrifice of nutrition,
(26:19):
calories, iron, all these other sort of essential building
blocks that we need. Yeah, what impact does stress
have on our skin? Yeah, massive stress is a
hormone, right? So it's a, it's a hormone
release in our body that allows us to deal with circumstances
and go above and beyond what thenormal baseline function of our
(26:41):
bodies is. And so when you're producing
these stress hormones, then it'sgoing to proliferate.
You know, your immune system's going to go on crazy, oil glands
are going to go crazy, angiogenesis is going to go
crazy, which is blood vessel formation.
And all these things present in certain, you know, conditions
like rosacea or an acne, pro inflammatory conditions like
(27:01):
psoriasis and eczema. All of these things will go
crazy the more stressed that we are because it was designed for
a short period fight or flight. But the way that we're living
our lives at the moment is so fast-paced that the levels of
baseline stress in everyone is, is crazy high.
And when I'm going through my, my acne with my younger
(27:22):
demographic, usually my teenage patients, and I'm explaining to
them and their parents about this analogy, I said, well,
look, if you and I, meaning me and the parent went back to
being 16 years old, we wrote down everything we did in a day.
And then we compare it to everything that their child is
doing in a day. Our list will be half, maybe 1/3
of the things that these youngerpeople are doing day in and day
(27:44):
out. Because there's no shut off
anymore, right? You're available 24/7 on your
tablets, You're engaged 24/7. The world expects you to respond
to an e-mail or a phone call. And that base level of stress
amplifies anything else that happens.
So let's say that, yeah, you know, your genetics are like a
lottery ticket. And if your Lotto numbers come
up, you know, a single rice tipsthe scale of that final number.
(28:08):
But the stress acts like giving you, you know, a power hit.
So you guarantee, you know, fouror five year numbers are already
primed. It takes very little then to
stimulate your genetics to present earlier or more severe
forms of whatever it is. And in my world, obviously, skin
diseases. Yeah.
Are you seeing an increase then?Massive, massive increase.
I have a joke right? That the most powerful drug in
(28:30):
the world that I'll be able to prescribe one day will be a
holiday because you see it all the time.
Someone will come in and they golook, mate, you know, skin kiss
is terrible. But you know, when I when I go
off to Japan, you know, it all just goes away and they're
going, you know, it's got to be the Japanese food, the Japanese
weather, the Japanese this and Igo, well, I didn't let me just
(28:50):
go one through. What were you doing over there?
Oh, you know, I was on holidays.I was skiing, I was doing this
and you go, well, you know, I think, I think that's, it's the
shutdown really that makes the biggest difference.
Yeah, obviously there are some things in that environment as
well. But, and I don't know what the
solution is because I don't, I don't think there is one, you
know, to allow us to, to reduce down our cortisol levels.
(29:12):
I don't, I don't have the answerthere, but I think as we get
smarter and with the help of artificial intelligence to
really study our genetics betterand these hormone signaling
pathways which are incredibly complex, maybe we'll map it.
Yeah, I know when people come onthe retreats that we host here
at Rays that they'll say their guts feel better, like all these
(29:34):
things and it's all linked to stress and environment and just
hitting that pause button, that intentional pause, the flow and
effects are huge. Massive, yeah.
And you know, you, if you know, you interview a lot of
successful people, you, you hearthese successful people who have
pushed really, really hard to get to these areas.
And then when they finally sell out or divest and then the pace
(29:56):
just slows down, they become thebiggest advocates for, you know,
balance and, and don't do this and don't do that because you
know, it really does make such an impact.
And when you stop, you finally see it.
Yeah, it's such a tricky 1 though, because I think in
hindsight they all also know that.
They wouldn't have. They wouldn't have.
Got to where they were and like,it drives them as a person and a
(30:18):
human. So it's just we're so complex as
people, like what we want, what we need, what we.
Yeah, Yeah, You have your own skin care brand block.
I know that you've recently rebranded.
They're looking beautiful. Actually, I have one here.
I'm going to show it on camera. Thank you.
Yeah, look, I'm going to show you guys.
It's so pretty. But tell me, besides being
(30:39):
obviously created and approved by dermatologists, which I love,
it gives me a lot of confidence.Like there are so many products
out there on the market that I find it quite overwhelming.
You need to almost become a specialist to read the
ingredients. Me.
Like, do I want this on my skin?Just because they have a lot of
Instagram followers doesn't necessarily mean it's good for
me. But what makes Block special?
The obvious thing is it's formulated by us and it's clinic
(31:01):
proven. So what we mean by that is that
we have seen over 152035 years of collective knowledge of what
works, what doesn't work every, when you can complain about
every trend that's come through and we've distilled that down
and to go, OK, well, these may not be the tip of the spear like
the ingredient was invented yesterday, but they have been
proven, they work and they're simple.
(31:25):
We don't market heavily, you know, via Instagram or via
influences because we think thatthe retention rate speaks for
itself. You know over 70% of people who
pick it up continue to buy the product.
Sorry, wait, 70% retention? Yeah, yeah.
I think any brand listening is like, give me that, OK, that's
huge. So it's, so it's massive.
(31:45):
Thank you. And it's always been an in
clinic thing for us. You know, we currently service
around about 24, 1000 people a year thereabouts and it's always
been kind of enough for us. But in the new generation of of
block, we wanted to export that because when we started in the
skin care journey, it was not a very crowded space and it's
become as you say, an incrediblycrowded space with.
(32:08):
Confusing space. Confusing space with things that
don't work. Brands will pop up, they'll pop
down, they'll be trendy. And the idea behind block?
Was it supposed to be a standard?
So if you use it as a benchmark,then you can compare it to
anything else that you have, youknow, and if you use the product
and it works and you know that is going to be the maximum
(32:30):
efficacy that you can get out ofan over the counter product in
that category. Now this individualization that
comes into that, right? You might not like the sense
that we've picked, you know, youmight not like the feel of it,
but you know that that's the result you should get.
So whatever you pick up after that, it must match it, right?
And if it doesn't match it, thenit's not on par.
And you know, that's, that's where it's gotten to.
(32:51):
Yeah, I love that. And then what kind of products
do you have in the range? So in the range we're starting
with in our new relaunch, we're going on with our proceramides,
we're going on with our moisturizing range, we're going
over our antioxidants, our vitamin C's.
Obviously we're going with our niacinamides.
We're also going with a broader range of cleanses because it
(33:12):
started out as you know probablyacne focus.
And so we're going sort of more for everyone now.
And then coming in the future will be a couple of additional
ones that I can't speak about, but we wanted to get the basics
down. So our basic concerns are
usually hydration, wrinkles, pigmentation and redness.
Okay. So there is one product in every
(33:34):
different category that will tackle that and then there is a
second product that will go across two of those.
So if you go look, I've got bothconcerns and I really don't want
to spend the money buying two different products.
I know that I'll accept 80% of it, but it will do 2 in one.
Well, then we've got you, because these are formulated to
a really, really high, high end.But we are aware that you can't
(33:58):
make a product for everyone and so we don't want to lose the
quality by competing on the lowest price.
Equally. We don't think you need to gouge
someone for it. So it's AI, call it a BMW or
Mercedes, it's not a Rolls Royceor a Ferrari, you know, but it's
a really nice luxury product that you can't afford.
Yeah, gorgeous. And is it for males and females?
1000 females, yeah. So that's the big change I've
(34:23):
seen in in skin care is that menare starting to pick up the
products because it was uncool or unmasculine to pick up
products. And the only thing that I think
is, is different is in in the how you use it.
So you might use it more or lessfrequently.
And then different genders have different desires of how they
(34:45):
want products to feel or smell. OK.
So we've tried to make it as unisex as possible, the happy
medium between the two. But as our patients and as our
clients come back to us, then I do see in the future that we'll
start to have more tailored approaches, more about the feel
and look, not necessarily about the ingredients, right?
(35:07):
Because compliance is the numberone thing.
So we're looking for that feedback and go, OK, what makes
you not use this as much as you should be using it?
And then and then we reiterate. So we're always reiterating
based on that one principle of repeatability, right, usability,
because we know the results are there, right?
Yeah, I love that. And I know that for me, like
(35:29):
whenever I buy any skin care products, it will be in the
bathroom and my partner and Alexwill just end up using whatever
I have anyway. So this is great it.
Is that's it, That's that's the exact thing.
You know, we wanted to be able to pick it up and just use it.
And you know, you can see, for example, you know, we have heavy
moisturizer and we have, you know, Pro B.
So the labeling is very clear aswhat's inside.
(35:52):
And then there's a link back to the website how to use and what
to expect. So if you do pick it up, you can
screenshot it, you can Google itand you know exactly what's in
there. So we wanted to keep that
simplicity. Yeah, really refreshing because
like we said, we live in a very complex world.
Like let's make these things as easy as possible.
Absolutely. Yeah, I know on because I follow
you on Instagram that you're often at these really innovative
(36:15):
like medical conferences and things.
Tell me, what is the future of skin care?
What are you excited about? What's coming?
So I think the number one thing that's going to be coming is
going to be tailored diagnosis, OK, So AI powered tools that
allow you to analyse your own skin and get that information,
you know, at a dermatologist level on your phone.
(36:35):
Yeah, very cool. Thing I would say about that,
that we're not so great at doingis capturing the images required
at home. You know, we have a lot of
patients who will say, look, if you're having this problem, send
us through a photo and it's really wild the amount and
degree of the quality of that photograph.
So we need to work on the technologies that allow us to
capture that. And so I see that maybe for the
(36:58):
next 5 to 10 years that's still going to be an in clinic
experience or you know, an in wherever it is experience.
But then after that, that as thephone technologies and
standardization of photography or even, you know, AI computing
and go, OK, well, you've kind ofhalf taken a photo of your face.
I'll build out the rest of the pixels to go, OK, this is how we
do the analysis. Then I think that's going to be
the biggest thing because that should provide you with the best
(37:21):
information. But it is also going to be a
trust exercise. You know, there's no secret
that'll be used for marketing, you know, those sort of things.
So you want to have some sort ofauthority looking over this and
almost give these apps or applications an app registration
or a qualification that says they're allowed to do that so it
holds them to a minimum standard.
(37:42):
Yep. But it's exciting because we all
want more information at our fingertips and we want it to be
proven and checked. And then the second thing that
will happen is we were speaking earlier before about the before
this podcast started about genetics, OK, And being able to
analyze our DNA to tell us what we should be eating, what's
going to cause us problems and how we might be able to correct
(38:04):
that in the future. So understanding that epigenetic
level, the hard part will be listening to it because
something that will affect you in 30 or 40 years, maybe you
don't want to put in the effort.And then not necessarily in in
skin care initially because it will need to have the kinks work
out. But working on what we call
immunotherapy. So triggering our own bodies
(38:25):
healing mechanisms, our own bodies attack mechanisms to
better heal yourself or even create new stem cells.
I see is going to be the future,the focus.
But at the moment it's a little bit primitive because it can
equally fix your skin cancer butattack your lungs.
So, OK, so so it's not quite safe.
We need a multidisciplinary approach here.
But that will be good because we're just hijacking the most
(38:48):
powerful machine in the world currently our bodies to do
better. And then there'll be a trickle
down effect from these more hardcore medications, ones that
are considered safe to put on the skin to, to signal our
intercellular pathways to do it.But with a crate, right, Not
having to have an infusion or, or, or to take a tablet.
And then you're kind of in control.
(39:09):
And in particular because I likeskin cancer is that we'll have
that same ability to put creams on that feel like moisturizers
that will clear the field with the abnormality for a much
longer period of time than the the basic chemotherapies that we
have now. Amazing.
So a really exciting, innovativefuture coming and it'll be here
before we know it. And it sounds terrible as well,
(39:30):
but there's never been a better time to get sick.
You know, yeah. You know, arguably.
You know, we know so much more. Yeah.
And I, I I'm one of those believers.
And I think that the the person who lives for forever has
already been born. So I think that we're going to
move so quickly in this space, it's going to make a head spin.
Yeah. But it comes with all the
(39:51):
incredible possibilities of count on the youth.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you and your team are
building a pretty epic new headquarters.
What sorts of things can we expect to see there?
So it's our health precinct. So it's our idea of what health
looks like in the future, and it'll be a tech enabled, AI
enabled building that allow us to move into that diagnostic
(40:14):
space, not just for skin, but hopefully lots of other
conditions at the same time. But then going back to, OK,
well, how do you engage someone when there's so much distrust?
So it's about building a community around that precinct
and involving other practitioners, other allied
health, where we can build a health conscious community,
(40:35):
engage them not just in the not fun things, but also the fun
things. Yeah.
Teach them about their bodies, their skin, what to expect, how
to manage it, and then enable the choice to act on those
things if they want. And I think that's a really
beautiful hybrid because in thisworld of AI and tech, I think
we're also craving human connection more than ever.
(40:56):
So to be able to fuse those two worlds together absolutely is
really special. Yeah.
It's, it's a terrifyingly exciting future because I think
we're all worried about where technology will replace us and
where our role fits into that. But I'm, I'm a very optimistic
view. I think that the entirety of our
(41:17):
being will go down to, to this being able to slow down, look
someone in the eyes, let the technology do all the difficult
things in the background and just hold someone's hand and say
it's OK. Yeah, you know, and then also,
this is your journey. What do you want to do?
You know, there's no limits anymore about how long you can
live, how you can live, how healthy you'll be.
(41:40):
Yeah, it's bright. I can feel your energy just like
buzzing. Let's do this.
That's so good. Tell me, is this true?
Yes. Are we already living in the
future with this aspect? Are there some scanning machines
for skin cancers that already exist and can kind of map on a
regular basis? What's happening there?
So do they work? Ah.
So there are, so there are, there's there's two things that
we need to understand. There's the health aspect and
(42:02):
there's the economic aspect as well.
OK, So these machines are do exist and they're great
technology, but they're super expensive, OK.
And at the moment we still need to prove that the results are
reliable enough to let them, youknow, wild and free.
So they are mostly in the research phase, but our belief
(42:23):
is that that's the way that we should be moving towards that
technology. There is also the functionality,
let's say that all skin checks, you know, around Australia move
to, to these models. Well, you can have a machine,
but it can only really look at someone every 15 to 20 minutes
because you still need to get undressed or dressed.
(42:43):
There's, there's still not a great way to undress someone
without taking off their clothes.
You have to bring them into the room.
You have to explain how to standat the moment.
It needs to be very static. So if you've ever had an MRI or
an X-ray that's like hold still.And so the machine then needs to
stitch all these images together, okay?
And then it needs to process that needs to go back to a data
bank that it has. And what we're seeing at the
(43:04):
moment is that a lot of these data sets are very, very biased.
So it's good at picking up, you know, something in an, in an
artificial database, but in the real world, sometimes it's
missing a few things. And then we need to work on
special areas like OK, hands andfeet and scalp.
How do we quickly look at those areas which we have to move
(43:24):
stuff out of the way and machines can't currently do
that. The other part about it is that
it relies on 2 images taken at once to get a really quick idea.
So there's this distance, right?But in dermatology, we often
rely on something called dermoscopy, just using a little
tiny magnifying device that's put exactly on the skin to
detect special patterns. At the moment, it's quite
(43:46):
laborious to go, OK, everyone needs to be mapped with this
extra device because it physically has to be put onto
the skin. But if we can work out either a
quick way for the machine to identify which one should or
shouldn't have this or a imaging, you know, device that
allows us to take that level a photograph from the very
beginning. And that's when the leap will
(44:07):
come. And with mass adoption.
But at the moment, it's still going to be much more economic
for someone to get a skin check with their dermatologist or
their their skin care provider. Because you know, you don't have
to rely on the $1,000,000 of machinery and in order to, to,
to make that happen. And some our hope is that some
of the technologies that we're working on will bring down the
(44:28):
cost of these $1,000,000 machines to $35,000 or $60,000,
which then becomes something that you can scale.
And we did this, this math, I think we need about 2500, 2008
hundred of these machines Australia wide in order to, you
know, see everybody. Yeah, because.
How frequently should we be doing?
(44:49):
That's another. That's another question.
Yeah. So we want to see someone's skin
as often as it takes to detect early changes and prevent really
serious outcomes. And what I mean by that is that
let's say Melanoma, for example,can mutate the rate of a or grow
at the rate of a millimetre every six months.
And Melanoma is dangerous not when it's wider, but when it's
deeper. And so if you didn't have it
(45:11):
today and tomorrow it started, if I saw you in six months, then
it's going to be less than a millimeter in thickness, which
arguably should be still quite safe to treat.
So if there's a risk of Melanoma, we want to be seeing
someone, you know, at least every six months, right?
But with other skin cancers, then most of them are not deadly
in their early stages, OK, And they can grow for a little while
(45:34):
quite safely. Yes, they need to be attended
to. But if you didn't pick it up for
two months or three months or even 6 months in circumstances,
the outcome will still be the same.
There might be a slightly different cosmetic outcome, but
the outcome in terms of, you know, you living and your
morbidity, mortality, that's exactly the same.
So we say annual to scoop up twoor three things, but you can be
checked as often as you like depending on how quickly you
(45:56):
want to pick up something. But if you you're seeing a
human, you don't want to see someone too frequently because
our eyes need to see changes over a longer period of time to
really pick up that. So unless it's a very bad
Melanoma, which you know would be every three to four months,
I'd say most people, the six months would be the earliest
(46:16):
intervention that you should pick.
And 12 months is a really good time frame for for most
practitioners. And so this is when the machines
will be better than us when theycome in, because they'll pick up
even earlier details, right? Maybe not as subtle, but they'll
pick up the earlier changes. Now, the only other thing that I
would say about that is that it doesn't matter who you saw.
(46:37):
It could be me, it could be God themselves, but if you notice
anything on your own body, whether it's a week, a day, a
month, you always go back and get it checked out.
So what are we looking for in that situation?
So you're looking for something that is what we call the ugly
duckling sign, something that your gut instinct says.
This is not right for me becausegut instinct is pattern
(46:59):
recognition. We can't verbalize, right?
So that's what it is. So your body is recognizing as a
change here. Always listen to it.
Then there are the obvious things that if if you're trying
to measure, I've got a million moles, what mole looks a bit
weirder than another? More than two colors growing in
One Direction, sudden changes, persistent symptoms.
So that can be persistent itch, persistent pain, anything that
(47:22):
bleeds. When it comes to our
keratinocyte cancers. So this is what is this squamous
cell carcinoma, basal cell carcinoma.
These are skin cancers of the higher layer of the skin.
So I should say that all skin cancers are named after the
layer of the skin that they growfrom.
From. Yeah.
So you've got squamous, which isthe highest, most layer of the
skin. Then you have basal, which is a
(47:42):
little bit lower than you have Melanoma, melanocytes, a little
bit lower than that. And then you have rarer things
like Merkel cell carcinoma, which doesn't get a big shout
out, but it's one of our most deadly forms of skin cancers.
And so rapid growth is somethingto look out for.
And then if it bleeds in the rest of the skin cancer
(48:02):
categories, it's really, really important.
Anything that is painful, right,you know, you want to get
checked out. And so the good news about basal
cell carcinoma and squamous cellcarcinoma, which is our two most
a common skin cancers here in Australia, then you at some
point you're going to notice it,right?
So and unless it's squamous, basal is locally destructive.
(48:26):
So it eats and it eats and it eats.
And then on faces, you know, or delicate areas where a lot more
gung ho about managing it because we know the consequence
of eating, you know, into the eye or into the nose or into the
lip. But the reality is if it was on
a shoulder and it was taking a while to grow, then the real
consequences is just cosmetic lines after that, you know,
you're not going to lose important structures.
(48:47):
So if you can't get in for a skin check because you live too
far away and you know, you don'tdon't feel like you're going to
be punished, you know, for having left it a couple of
months. But if it's got brown colour to
it and it's rapidly growing thatI'd always just put panic
stations on that because you're more likely to have a Melanoma
(49:08):
with those sort of features. And I've seen it before where
people have said, hey, look off,it's a basal cell carcinoma,
don't worry about it. And then you get them in you go
actually, you know, this is not,it's probably a Melanoma.
So, you know, the caveat to whatI said is that, you know,
anything can look like anything.And so always get it checked
out. But if you've been told you have
a basal cell carcinoma, you do have time to look after it.
(49:29):
You don't have to tip your Weld upside down tomorrow.
Yeah, earlier means smaller, butstill good outcome.
And with squamous cell carcinoma, that's generally the
same. However, there are some danger
sites with a squamous cell carcinoma like noses, lips,
eyelids, ears, where it has metastatic potential.
And this means that it goes fromwhere it is to all around the
(49:49):
body and it can be sort of deadly.
So if you have a cancer, I will say all cancers in those areas,
get them looked at ASAP. And then if it's anywhere else
on the body and you're not worried about Melanoma, then you
have a little bit more time, butyou don't know what you're
looking at. And so if you're sitting there
at home going, I'm pretty sure that's a skin cancer.
(50:10):
Don't sit on it. Yeah.
But if your appointment for a skin check was a month away, I
don't think that'll make a difference, Right?
Yeah. And it can take a while.
I know dermatologists are in high demand in Australia so it
can take a while to get into a dermatologist but going to see
AGP as a first protocol if you're worried.
And, and This is why I think that a collaborative approach in
medicine is, is so important because there are not enough
(50:33):
specialists until we create themwithout official intelligence to
go around. And so we need generalists who
have an interest in skin in order to fill that gap and void
because you practice your best medicine when you love
something, right? That's true.
And so when you find a General practitioner that has a real
interest in skin and there's a really good place to start.
(50:53):
And I think they're always goingto have your best interest in
mind. And so when they see someone
who's complex or difficult, or they know the aesthetic outcome
could be better in doing it another way, then they're going
to send you to the specialists. And we have good relationships
with our general practitioners. And if they're ever worried or
concerned, they think you need that care, then that's that's
(51:13):
when they'll refer on. That's great to know.
If someone is at the Gold Coast,obviously they can click the
links that gonna put in the shownotes and come and see you.
If they're somewhere else in Australia and can't travel to
the Gold Coast, what's the best way to find a dermatologist in
their area that they can trust? So if you go on to the
Australasian College of Dermatologies website gives you
(51:34):
a list of all the practitioners and where they're practicing.
But the reality is most of us Google.
Yeah, yeah. And if you Google
dermatologists, wherever you are, then the nearest one will
pop up. But I would say the, the best
way to go about it is to go to that General practitioner that
the GP in your area that has, you know, your trust for other
(51:55):
health concerns and ask them, right?
Where are your relationships? Who do you send to?
You know, who can I get in to see if you do have those
concerns? And then Mike, look, mate,
you're low risk. Let's do your skin check now.
I don't think you need one. But if we see anything that's
worrying or concerning, the morereferral on and that will make
it a lot more, more streamlined.So I'd say start there.
Start there. Yeah, yeah.
(52:16):
Great. Andrew, this conversation has
been fascinating. I think everyone has learnt a
lot. I will link in the show notes to
block skin care, to the skin centre, to you, all the good
stuff. But is there anything we haven't
spoken about that you wish more people knew?
Well, my final message is West Sunscreen.
You know, I think I just got to leave it at that.
(52:36):
But no, this has been great. Thank you for letting me
verbalize my advice. Yeah.
No, thank you. We really appreciate it.
It's been great to have you here.
Great to be here. Thanks, Ash.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal: Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a brand new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-4 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.