September 29, 2025 • 44 mins
This was an episode that multiple women have privately messaged me to say thank you for. The insights, resources and support that Steph shares are things that 50% of us will need in our lifetime. And with statistics like that, if it's not us, it is one of our best friends.
Yes, it's an awkward topic and we'd rather avoid it... but if we are interested in marriage and relationships we also need to be aware of divorce.
Stephanie Murray is a Family Lawyer and Partner at Richardson Murray Law. Her team has helped thousands of couples to navigate divorce so I felt like she is the perfect person to ask all of my curious questions.
- Are divorce rates declining?
- Why do couples get divorced?
- When is divorce a good idea?
- How do some men avoid paying child support?
- Are all assets (including crypto and superannuation) included in a settlement?
- Are there free resources for people who can't afford a lawyer?
- How long does it take to get divorced?
- Should you get a mid-marriage prenup before having children?
This episode is packed with practical wisdom and I think you should share it with all your girlfriends. It will help us all to make informed decisions when entering a relationship, having children or considering marriage.
It will also help empower those who may currently feel trapped. You never know who is struggling behind closed doors.
Learn More about Richardson Murray Law: https://richardson-murray.law/
Contact Steph: https://richardson-murray.law/people/stephanie-murray/
Free Resources and Hotlines Steph Mentions:
1800 Respect https://1800respect.org.au/
Domestic Violence Prevention Centre https://domesticviolence.com.au/
Women's Legal Service https://wlsq.org.au/
Follow Ash on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashcam____/
Follow the Reset Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reset___podcast/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to reset.I am your host Ash Cam.
This week I am re sharing an episode with you that really hit
home for a lot of people earlierthis year.
It is an interview with lawyer Steph talking about all things
divorce. And I know it's not a topic that
we want to think about. I know it's not something that
we go into relationships necessarily thinking that we're
(00:20):
going to get divorced. But with the statistics sitting
around 50% of all relationships ending in divorce or breakup,
whether you're married or you'repartnered, I just think for
girls like us, it is important to understand these facts.
So whether it's you, your mom, your sister, or your friend
going through divorce, having the facts in front of you is
just so empowering. I know that people messaged me
(00:43):
after this episode went live andsaid, hey, Ash, thank you.
I'm currently going through divorce or I wish I had this
before I went through divorce and thank you.
I really needed to know this or hey, my friend is going through
this right now. It's a really messy, really
stressful time, and the insightsthat Steph shared have just made
(01:03):
it so much easier to navigate. Enjoy Steph.
Welcome to Reset. Thank you so much for having me
excited to be here. So good to have you here.
So I'm going to read this out tomake sure I get it right.
Yes. So Steph, you are the Co founder
and partner at Richardson MurrayFamily Law.
You are also Queensland Law Society accredited Specialist in
(01:23):
Family Law and we're diving deeptoday to talk about all things
divorce. Yes.
And fortunately, I'm an expert or fortunately for many people,
I'm an expert in in that area. Yeah, I feel like it's a topic
that is not spoken about enough until people get into a
situation that is very uncomfortable, very unknown and
(01:44):
quite overwhelming to be honest.Yeah, it's one of, I think it's
one of the most stressful thingspeople would go through in their
lifetime. Hopefully people don't go
through it, and if you do, hopefully you only have to go
through it once. And ideally we're there to guide
you to make it as easy as it canbe or smooth as it can be with
the least amount of damage beingleft in the wake.
(02:05):
Yeah. And I feel like there's a bit of
a stigma about the word divorce,but like anything in life,
knowing when to leave something that's no longer serving you,
whether it's a job, a friendship, a city, a
relationship, is actually a skill that I think should be
celebrated. Because what kind of a life is
it if you get to 95 years old and you've spent majority of
(02:27):
that time with someone that's nolonger helping you grow into the
best version of yourself? I totally agree.
Actually, I was reading a statistic this week that was
saying that something like 50% of the current divorces going
through the system have been married for 20 years or more,
which is a significant period ofyour life.
And it's a significant period ofyour life to make such a huge
(02:48):
change. So I think that's really
interesting. And I think as the years have
gone on and it becomes more socially acceptable to divorce
or or leave a relationship that's no longer serving you,
those statistics would hopefullygo down and people get more
comfortable with doing what's right for them.
Yeah, absolutely. Talking percentages What
percentage of Australians relationships do end in divorce
(03:11):
these days? The most recent statistic is
from 2021, I think, when the last census was done and it
doesn't have an exact statistic,but it is around I think 47%.
And interestingly, over the lastfew decades, that has decreased.
And the reason is because more people are in a de facto
(03:31):
relationship, not getting married.
And so it's not actually reflective of the number of
people going through, let's say,a separation or the ending of a
relationship versus the actual legal divorce, which is the
systematic process you have to go through.
Very interesting and great to have that kind of insight as to
why the stat is the way it is. I know because it can give an
(03:53):
illusion that more people are staying together, which is is
probably not accurate at all. Yeah, I feel like whenever I
talk to my friends about relationships, it's almost an
element of luck involved becauseas you grow through life, you
change as an individual. So the person that you started
dating or that you married is going to be a different version
(04:14):
of themselves as you go through life, and so are you.
And so I think pushing that stigma aside again, it's are you
growing in the same direction and are you still compatible at
all those different phases of your life?
Yeah, I think that's so true. And I mean, I know that from
personal relationships that I'vehad where I've changed and grown
and, and I think sometimes what happens is people are on the the
(04:37):
train, if you will, and they andthey don't know how to get off.
And so they they can see that it's all the red flags and all
the things that are that are notserving them and whatever else.
And you see it all the time withpeople in the news all the time,
like celebrities and influences that they have this wedding, the
giant wedding. And then within 12 months the
relationship's over And they allsay the same thing, which is we
probably knew two years ago, butwhen you're on the train, you're
(04:59):
engaged, you're moving forward, etcetera.
It can be really hard to to makethe call as to when is the
appropriate time to to jump off and to trust your instincts
versus everything else that's going on around you.
Absolutely. And I think it's those societal
pressures of what we should do rather than like hitting pause
for a minute and working out like, well, what do I actually
(05:19):
want to do? And that's not just with
relationships, that's with all aspects of life.
But what is the actual process of going through a divorce?
Yeah. So if you're married and you
want to get divorced and the lawin Australia says you have to be
separated for 12 months before you're allowed to apply for
divorce. And that's to allow for
reconciliation and not being in the business of just signing off
(05:41):
on divorces. It's, it's actually quite a
process. So you wait 12 months, you make
the application for a divorce. You can either do that on your
own or you can do it jointly as a couple, which can be perceived
to be a little more amicable. That gets filed and then there's
a hearing at the court, which isvery procedural.
There's no pointing the finger. There's no, no one's on the
(06:02):
witness stand. It's nothing like that.
It's very procedural and if they're satisfied that you've
been separated for 12 months, then the relationship's over and
the divorce order is issued. If you're in a defector
relationship, it's far more simple, which is simply I say I
no longer want to be here. This relationship from my
perspective is, is over. You then separate and that's all
(06:24):
the legal separation you need todo.
Does everyone need a lawyer to go through a divorce?
It's a very good question. No you don't.
You can absolutely self act. I'm biased in that as a lawyer,
I think that the benefit of getting advice as to everything
from the process to what maybe you're entitled to, to what you
(06:45):
should consider or think about is really important.
That's not to say everyone needsto run out and spend 10s of
thousands of dollars on a lawyer, but I do think it is of
benefit to be able to know whereyou stand, know what's happening
and then make the choice to to proceed.
And people come in all the time for initial appointments and,
and kind of, I like, I don't want to blow anything up.
(07:06):
I don't want them to know. I've seen a lawyer, but I say,
I'm not here to, to blow things up.
I, I'm just here to guide you. And if you want to be amicable,
that's amazing. That's what we support.
How do we best do that to be able to transition you through
this phase? It sounds like it would.
Just like anything, if you invest in some professional
support, it just makes it a whole.
Lot less stressful, absolutely. And even just the, the process,
(07:30):
the procedural forms, all of those kinds of things, they can
be really overwhelming. And it can be as simple as you
didn't take this box or you didn't attach this certificate.
So we don't accept your application for a divorce.
And it can like we have, I had aclient recently and she said
that she tried three times to file it and it had been
rejected. And so the benefit of having
(07:50):
that us is that we go, well, we dot our eyes, we cross our TS,
we know what needs to get acrossthe line.
So if if time and stress is of the importance, it can be of
benefit to just pay the money and to have the prepared into it
all for sure. Yeah, definitely.
And then I know in Australia now, superannuation is one of
the things that is considered during separations, which I
(08:13):
think wasn't previously, correctme if I'm wrong, but is
everything that you own on the table during a divorce or how?
Does that work? Yeah, it the short answer is
yes, everything. That is in my name, your name,
joint names. All held by a company or trust
that is controlled by one of theparties to a marriage or a
relationship is in the pool. Accountants have been trying for
(08:37):
many years to find avenues to avoid that, to circumvent that.
I guess the, the clearest way toexplain it is for a lot of
business people and, and tax strategies and whatever else,
assets can be structured in a certain way for asset protection
under the Family Lore Act, that protection is, is waived.
And the reason for that is, is because obviously there are some
(09:00):
relationships where one person financially controls everything
and the other person doesn't. And for asset protection and tax
planning and all sorts of things, it's just is the safest
way to ensure that both parties are protected and that one party
isn't going to be left with nextto nothing because one party has
better structuring or a better accountant or, you know, and I
(09:21):
can afford an accountant becauseif you're working as a teacher,
you probably don't need a, a day-to-day accountant.
So those are the kinds of things.
So yes, the, the short answer iseverything's on the table.
And then it just becomes who's entitled to what at the end of
that? OK, and I doubt that many people
enter a marriage thinking OK this is going to end in divorce.
But of those 47% that do, what are some of the common reasons
(09:46):
marriages end in divorce? Look, I it's an interesting part
of our job because in Australia it's a no fault policy, meaning
that who did what wrong, who left the relationship, who
cheated or anything. It is irrelevant.
It is simply that if one person doesn't want to be in the
relationship any further, the relationship can end.
(10:08):
And so because of that, the reason for the separation will
often not be necessarily determined or exposed.
Or some people don't even tell me, some people volunteer it
straight off the bat. But what I see is quite common
is obviously cheating that happens, that comes up
frequently. Just simply growing apart is a
(10:29):
really common one that I see allthe time.
And, and those ones are quite hard because I often find that
one person comes to that decision before the other.
And it's that almost that that stage of grief where one person
has grieved it during and then the other person finds out and
then all of a sudden has to catch up in that part of the
process, which I would say having done this for 16 years
(10:50):
can be. Really difficult for that
person. And then the other persons going
why? But they knew, but they, but
I've been very clear in it. It's just human nature that they
haven't caught up with what's happening.
Money can often be a big one either transparency, hiding
money, parenting, you know, different styles of parenting.
(11:12):
They're probably the the main ones I would say.
Yeah. So it sounds like some people
leave a divorce and it's just because they've grown apart.
But some people find themselves in relationships that are really
physically or emotionally unsafe.
They might find it more difficult to very challenging
and see a lawyer. Yeah.
(11:32):
Are there some resources and we can put links in the show notes
that you recommend? Yeah, we do a lot of work in the
domestic violence space and working in education and
prevention. One of the best resources is
there's a contact number called 1800 Respect and they are a
fantastic resource to be able toguide you to where you need to
be. Who could support you, who could
(11:53):
help you? DVD PC, which is the DVD
Prevention Center, domestic Advance Prevention Center and
they have a heap of support people that can help you with
everything from I wanna leave, how do I do that?
To how can I safely access fundsor how can I access
accommodation? Obviously an emergency, always
(12:15):
call the police, but it can alsobe really helpful to see a
lawyer in this space before it effectively you need to flee to
understand what you're going through.
I mean, a lot of people don't even realize that.
They sort of go, I'm terrified to leave, but I don't know.
Why? And then as we work through it,
it's oh, this you've been a victim of domestic violence.
(12:37):
This is what's what's happened. So through that process, having
a lawyer be able to say, OK, well here's what we're going to
need. How do we look at not just at
what happens on the day you leave, but for the next month,
for the next 6 months? What are the kids doing?
What are the pets doing? Where are we headed?
And I think that can give especially for someone who
potentially has been more submissive in the relationship
(13:00):
and and using the word control or whatever else it allows.
Them for the first time in a long time, some control over
maybe what's going to happen next and allowing them to, to
own their decision and then to find their way forward.
But yeah, there's wonderful resources.
There's also the Women's Legal Service that is for women only,
but they can really help you guide through the the system as
(13:21):
well. Yeah, that's great.
We'll definitely put links to all of that.
I think that's gonna be a really, yeah.
Might change some lives. So yeah, I agree.
If someone's currently planning to get married in the near
future, is there anything they should proactively do to prepare
for potential divorce in the future?
I know it's not very sexy or romantic but any advice?
(13:44):
It's so funny. People ask me this all the time,
both personally and professionally, and I say I
still believe in love. It's, you know, I'm all about
the weddings. And yeah, I think it's
wonderful, but I also think it is really important to consider.
Prenuptial agreement or a, or a cohabitation agreement, which is
the same, but if there's no intention of getting married.
(14:05):
So simply, you know, two people decide to move in together and,
and sort of solidify their relationship a little more.
My first tip would be it's very different to the movies that you
know. The hour before the wedding,
they're each in their room signing it and there's pressure
and it's this and it's if you put on weight then this happens
or, or this or if you cheat, this is the consequence.
In Australia, it has to be within the realm of what is just
(14:27):
and equitable, meaning what is afair outcome for both parties.
The benefit of doing a a prenuptial agreement or a
cohabitation agreement from my perspective is it's no different
to starting a business with a friend.
We're a business partner and saying, OK, we're all on the
same terms now. We all know where we're going
and where you know what our planis and we all hope for the best
(14:47):
and we all have good intentions.But what happens if this doesn't
work? And how do we ensure that
everyone is safe, it's fair, andthat we negotiate these terms
now while everyone's in a good headspace and likes each other
versus doing it when potentiallythere's hurt and grief and a
heap of other of those emotions.And we find that that has a much
(15:09):
better outcome for everybody than if you do it on the other
end. And I think it's particularly
important for people who are getting married or or entering a
relationship when they've accumulated wealth because it
just makes it very clear. This is what I expect.
This is what you expect. There's no issue and debate.
It's not relying on someone who said, I promise I'll look after
(15:30):
you or I promise I'll do this. It's really clear and more and
more the, the court is they're being, they're being held up,
they're, they're valid. And the court saying, well, you
went to the extent of entering into this agreement.
We have very strict rules in Australia about how that's done.
So both parties seeing a lawyer and making sure they have advice
on it. It's not just at the dinner
table. We all sign it, making sure
(15:52):
there's Full disclosure of financial assets and, and
transparency around that and making sure, as I said, that
it's fair for everybody. And the idea is you take into
account lots of contingencies. What happens if there are
children? What happens if one person stops
working? What happens if the asset pool
declines? We consider lots of different
processes and then find what's best for for you and then do
(16:15):
what what's best for you. But controversial, Some people
find it very unromantic and not in any way sexy.
But I think that for a lot of people, if they have been
through it, we're seeing more and more that for the next time
they want to know what they whatthey're expected to do.
Absolutely. Let's talk kids for a second.
(16:37):
If someone is in a relationship already, they might be married
or de facto and they're thinkingabout having children in the
future. Children change lives in so many
beautiful ways. But also is there, I don't know,
it's like a mid marriage prenup or some kind of agreement.
That's like, OK, if we're bringing children into this
(16:58):
relationship, maybe we didn't have a prenup before, but this
is going to significantly impactthe lives, particularly of
women. Is there any kind of agreement
upfront of, OK, if we have kids and then the relationship ends,
here's the Child Support agreement, here's the schooling.
Like what does that look like? Yeah.
You're absolutely correct. And look, this is something, I
mean, the, the one thing I should say is that the agreement
(17:20):
can't say what will happen to the children.
It can't say it's never going tobe enforced that we're going to
do an equal time 5050 or we're going to to they're going to
live with mom and not spend timewith dad.
Whatever it is, they will never do that because that doesn't
align with what the best interests of the children are,
which is what the Family Law Actrequires.
But what it can do, and I've done some recently, in fact,
(17:41):
more and more common, which say,you know, if if mom's going to
sacrifice her career in order towhether that's, you know, one
year of maternity leave or five years or that is actually going
to stop the career progression because of the impact it has, as
we know. Therefore, what does that look
like in terms of financial support?
And that's becoming more and more common, absolutely, which
(18:03):
is that they need to be compensated, I guess whichever
parent is the one who ultimatelysacrifices their career.
If it's the case that that is going to be the you stop working
or you're not able to be able towork to the full capacity.
It's becoming more and more common that that certainly from
even our staff that both parentsare actively involved.
(18:23):
If if you know, the child's sick, it's not just mom that
needs to go. It's now there are different
options, but there is nearly always a default parent who is
the one that has to take more hits than the other in terms of
those things. And that is absolutely something
that we can do if both parties agree.
Yeah, interesting. I feel like a lot of the reset
listeners are highly ambitious, career driven and actively
(18:46):
deciding do I have children or do I not?
And there's no right or wrong answer there, but I think the
impact on the career is a huge influence on that.
So it's very interesting to hearthat that's an option as well.
Yeah. And I think again, not
dissimilar to what I said beforeeven having the conversation and
broaching these topics because what I can find having done so
(19:07):
many at the other end, when everything goes pear shaved,
it's well, I would never have made those choices if I knew
that I was going to sacrifice somuch and I never would have done
that. And I think broaching that topic
and if ultimately one person says, look, I'm not willing to
put my career on hold to do that, and the other person says,
I am, well, great. At least you've had a
conversation and you've put in place a plan.
(19:29):
So much of it, I guess all of relationships comes down to
communication and transparency around those things.
And I think in this particular instance in having kids and what
that will look like, that communication which can be then
put into the agreement is is crucial.
Yeah, you're right. The, and I guess permission to
change your mind as you go, likewe mentioned before, you can put
(19:52):
all the best plans in place. And then reality turns out to be
quite different. And so having those ongoing
conversations of like, OK, we thought having kids is going to
be like this. It's actually like this.
How do we navigate that as a team?
Yeah, I think so. And again, with parenting,
there's so many times at the again, when everything goes
really bad where, well, they were never there and they didn't
(20:13):
help with this. And they and, and two people
have really different potential recollections and of what
happened when the, you know, baby was born and what that look
like. And, and I think it's just,
yeah, having those expectations and having communication around
if that changes, what does that look like and what's working and
what's not. And I think that I think more
(20:34):
and more couples are getting better at it as time goes on and
there's more education around those things.
Staying on the topic of kids fora minute because I feel like
anyone I know that's gone through a divorce, the children
are the messiest, saddest, hardest part.
Hardest part? How does that get sorted?
(20:56):
There are so there's a couple ofdifferent ways that that that
can be sorted the, the best way,absolutely.
And, and the court, I've heard judges say this for, for over a
decade, which is that the best outcome for your kids is going
to be 1, where as parents, the two of you decide what that
looks like and then support it because then you own the
(21:20):
decision. The, the children embrace the
decision and everyone supports it.
Where I think it gets harder is when there's no agreement on
that. So one parent says, I think that
the arrangement should be XYZ. The other parent says, I think
they should be this. And that doesn't align.
How does that look? Absolutely.
The education and, and studies show the children's exposure to
(21:43):
that the, the conflict number one.
But two, what we call adult matters, which are, well, your
mum does this and therefore, youknow, I have to do this and I'm
only doing this because your daddoes this.
That is not good. And the studies actually show it
doesn't really turn the childrenoff that parent.
It makes the children anxious about it.
It just makes every change over every time they have to go to
(22:06):
soccer and see both parents incredibly stressful for them.
So making sure that they are protected from that conflict,
the financials, child support, the whole thing is so, so
important, even to the extent ofthe children picking up on your
or a parent's body language and reaction to the other parent can
(22:27):
is proven to have a significant impact.
And so I guess to summarize, finding an agreement that works
for your family is always going to be the best outcome.
If you can't do that in Australia, you are mandatory
unless an emergency required to attend dispute resolution.
So mediation with an expert to try and nut out what that plan
(22:51):
looks like. And that's someone who can
challenge potentially some ideasthat one person might have.
Or it could be as simple as wellfor me, you know, Christmas Eve
is the most important thing. Is there something that you
really want that I can give up for you that makes it doable?
And then if that doesn't work and dispute resolution is, is
(23:13):
not successful, and again, partymatters can go really, really,
really smooth and then all of a sudden have a hiccup.
Often new partners can trigger alittle, you know, blending
families. There can be lots of different
trigger points. But if it all falls apart and
then it doesn't, we have the court there that can make
decisions. At the end of the day, the
court's job is to ensure that every arrangement is in the best
(23:36):
interest of the children. That's the only thing that they
focus on and that they have to consider in the children having
a relationship with both parentsand external family, siblings
and grandparents, et cetera, Butalso weigh it up against the
risk of harm and their children being harmed by the arrangement.
Whether that's obvious things like abuse, drug use, alcohol
(23:57):
use, mental health, domestic violence, but it can also be the
children having a certain attachment to one parent or a
sibling or a pet or it it could be any of those things.
So all of that gets considered in the bubble and a decision is
ultimately made. And one way the court can deal
with that. Because when you go to court,
you're asking someone who's never met your children, who
(24:20):
never will meet your children and only knows you from what
you've put in your affidavit andor how you turn up to court.
They're making a decision for your family for the until the
child's 18. So what they do is use child
psychologists and social workersto meet with the family to be
able to try and come to a what they think would work for the
(24:42):
family. And if there are issues in
dispute, there can be niggles orthere can be bigger things.
How do we navigate them? What can we do to improve that?
What steps can we take to make sure that the children aren't
exposed to this? And in all my years, what I've
found is that people reading that report, which is often 3035
pages, it can be a real, can be very confronting, but it can
(25:05):
also be a real education for their own behaviour.
Oh, I didn't realize when I did that that it had this flowing
effect or I didn't realize this.So it's a very long answer.
I'm sure you probably shouldn't need it to be that long, but
it's a complicated field. And at the end of the day,
everyone is working towards trying to find what's in the
best interest of the children. And I'm a really big believer
(25:26):
that often irrelevant of how farapart parents are, they both
actually have the best intentions.
No one wants to do something that's not in the best interest
of the children. They both think what they want
is in the best interest of the children.
But it's just different. Child support, yes.
From the outside I hear crazy stories about one partner earns
(25:49):
$200,000 and is only paying $20 a week, child support, things
like that. How is child support calculated?
Yeah, Child support's done in a separate jurisdiction if you
will, then to the Family Law Act, but it's still under our
umbrella. the Child Support Agency which is run by Human
Services Australia, Centrelink etcetera is done on a formula
(26:11):
base. So that takes into account both
parties income, how much time the children spend with each
parent over a fortnight and thena what we call a self support
amount, which is that well as a human I need XYZ to survive.
And then they will come up with a calculation therefore as to
how much one parent needs to paythe other.
(26:33):
So this is a system that has been designed for the benefit of
most people, what we would call,you know, public policy.
It's best for for the most people, but it's not perfect.
And So what can sometimes happeneven you can have an equal time
arrangement where the children are spending one week with mom,
mom and dad. And if one party has a higher
(26:54):
income, they're still having to pay the other child support,
which for a lot of people is, iscrazy because we're each having
them equal time. There are a couple of ways that
that can be resolved. 1 is, is that you can go through the
childhood agency every year whenyou update your tax returns and
do everything that will automatically update.
Really what we're seeing more common and preferred option is
(27:17):
that at the outset, again or or at some stage through the
process, the parties have a discussion and agree on what
this will look like. So for example, we have a 5050
arrangement. Rather than us worrying about
who owes who money, et cetera, here's how we're gonna do it.
We're gonna split all of the school fees.
We're gonna split the extracurricular activities and
then we otherwise will pay for everything, as they said.
(27:39):
Or we're going to keep our private health insurance as a
family because that's actually more cost effective than doing a
separate. Or we're going to do it this way
and those agreements get registered with the Child
Support agency and then become enforceable.
So that can be a really good wayof, again, navigating those
things rather than it being a trigger event that creates
animosity and conflict between people.
(28:00):
Again, the system's not perfect.I don't think it ever will be.
And in particular, if you're self-employed, what you know,
you have somewhat of an ability to manipulate your income, which
can create a lot of animosity between parties where yeah, one
person is, is earning significantly higher and paying
such a small amount in child support.
You can apply for a variation, you can apply for special
(28:21):
circumstances, but it is a complex process and I see many,
many times people getting a little fed up and just wanting
out of of having to deal with it.
And that's why private agreements are becoming more and
more popular. I'm learning so much, I'm sure
everyone listening is learning as well.
I don't know if this is true. It's one of those things that
(28:42):
just gets thrown around as a statement.
But if you live with someone in Australia as a de facto for six
months or more, is it true that when you break up you can take
half their things? Like that's the kind of
throwaway line. I don't know anyone that's ever
done that, but is it? Is that actually a thing?
It's, it's not a thing. I also have people, even my
(29:03):
mother-in-law, she'll say, oh, well, he can take everything.
And, and I said, why did you learn that?
I don't know. But I think it is one of those
myths, if you will, about familylaw that that pop up in
Australia under the Family Law Act.
The the law says that if a property adjustment being if one
person needs to pay the other person something, there is a
(29:26):
whole list of criteria set out that gives the opportunity to do
that. One of them being a minimum
period of two years, so much more than your six months.
And then sometimes it can be less than the two years.
But if there are other criteria such as if you have a child or
children together within that period of time, which people do,
(29:47):
if you start intermingling finances, so you know, we buy a
house together, well of course we're gonna need to sort that
out. If you start a business together
and it has significant growth and both parties have put into
it. So there are all of those
factors. Now if someone's entitled to
make a claim because of one of those factors, the two years
that the children intermingling of finances, etcetera, that also
(30:11):
doesn't immediately mean 50%. There is a process that they
follow. It's far too convoluted to go in
now other than to say they look at what the asset pool is, what
the contributions of each party have been financially and non
financially. Whether there are other factors
that are set out in the Family Law Act which include things
like who will have the care of the children, what is the income
(30:34):
earning capacity of both parties, that kind of thing.
And then at the end, the final step is, is it there?
And so it, it is absolutely not the case.
If if someone was in a relationship for 18 months,
someone moves into their home and hasn't contributed in any
way, then they're probably not going to be successful in an
application. The way that I frame it to most
(30:54):
of my clients is more so around have that discussion upfront and
consider a cohabitation agreement rather than having
that conversation at 22 months in going, oh, do I need to do
this or do I not because that's more likely to lead to issues
than if you have those kind of conversations upfront.
I'm very much an advocate for making sure that's sorted before
(31:16):
you move in together. Again, not very romantic, but I
think it can avoid a lot of hiccups in the future.
It sounds like you and your teamobviously are experts in the
law, but also double as psychologists and relationship
counsellors, helping people justnavigate some things that we
might suppress or just not talk about until it absolutely
explodes and hits us in the face.
(31:37):
I think that's super true. And I graduated union in 2008,
so a very long time ago. But we didn't know courses on,
you know, psychology or interactions or even how to
manage if I carries trauma or all of the things that as
certainly in family law, our team deal with everyday.
(31:58):
Because it is something that youhave to take a lot on and you
have to set personal boundaries.And I'm seeing in our junior
lawyers the biggest mentoring lesson we can kind of give them
putting aside skills is is aboutthose things.
It's when to step back. It's when to put in place those
boundaries and making sure that,that you're not being exposed
(32:21):
because sometimes when all you do all day is here, all the
negative things, all the conflict, you go home to your
own life and you go, I don't want to talk to anybody.
I just want to, you know, curl up in a ball and, and watch TV
or whatever. So I think it's, it is really
important and I, I think, I hopeit's something that as young
(32:43):
lawyers are going through their training and education that it's
something that is considered a lot more because it is hugely
relevant. Yeah, and I've, I've been to
your practice, met your team. I've done some workshops in the
past. Yeah.
So I know that you definitely put the mental and physical
health of your team as a top priority.
What about yourself though? What's your go to way of hitting
(33:05):
the reset button when it's just been hectic?
Yeah. I think it's something my
business partner Anton and I areso passionate about our team
having those boundaries. I think it's something that I
didn't have at the start of my career and it was a different
era. It was a different era in the
law. It wasn't a priority, mental
health and boundaries and those kinds of things.
(33:26):
So it's something Anton and I are really passionate about,
making sure that our team have those resources, employee
Wellness programs, and it's something that we get a lot of
positive feedback on. But for myself, it's a skill
I've developed over time. I'm not perfect at it.
I think it's something we need to work on all the time.
I think one of the things that Ihave gotten really good at is
(33:47):
knowing when I need a minute. So you can be going, going,
going, everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's
fine. And then all of a sudden
something happens and you go, this isn't even that big of a
deal. And my reaction doesn't match
what's happening. And it's often at those times
that I need to take a step back.And there are various things
that I do. 11 is that Anton and I have a very open relationship
(34:10):
about those sorts of things and so.
He will often be the first. Person, I'll say, hey, like I'm
actually really struggling because of all of these things
and I think it's been a bit muchand I need a minute.
So that's a big one for us. I'm an advocate for regular
therapy, which is something thatI do monthly.
Whether there's anything going on or not, which I have found
since I changed from going when I needed it to regularly has
(34:34):
made a very significant impact in my life.
I can't stressed that enough. I think it's been a game changer
for me. Exercise is absolutely crucial
for me again and otherwise a lots of mindfulness.
I'm a big, I pick up my phone and I start scrolling and then,
you know, people close to me would say maybe that's enough
like put your phone away and I try and do things like colour or
(34:58):
whatever it is, but they're really the things that that I've
put in place. Interestingly, when I.
Consider all these. Tips and tricks and I love
listening to podcasts and getting, you know, Wellness
things from everywhere. A big thing for my therapist was
as a high performer, she was like, the last thing you need is
to add five more things per day into your agenda.
(35:19):
How are you actually going to manage that?
Like, yes, it's great in theory,but it just adds to what's on
your plate. What we're trying to do is take
things off your plate and so youcan recover.
And I think that was such good advice.
I'm not a journaler because I, it's just another thing for me
to do. And so I find other ways that I
can look after myself without necessarily having to do every
(35:42):
one of those things that all of the things recommend.
And, you know, I think it's one of those things as the seasons
change as well, it's really, really important to make sure
that maybe that works for me forthat period and maybe it doesn't
for this, but I try not to be too hard on myself about those
things. Yeah, beautiful.
I think that's self-awareness and permission to lean into
whatever season you're in, in that particular part of your
(36:03):
life. I think a lot of people
listening can probably relate tothat classic high performer.
And I see this at retreats all the time.
People in, they know that they need to take a break, so they
book into the retreat because otherwise they won't do it
otherwise. But it can be super
uncomfortable when your default mode in your comfort zone is to
be super busy all the time, to suddenly just still with your
(36:27):
thoughts, with your body, with your mind.
It can be such an adjustment. So yeah, I think we all struggle
with that at different times. I agree.
And something we've actually implemented in our office in the
last couple of months, which hastaken off like no other, which
you wouldn't believe is puzzling.
We have like a giant puzzle board in the middle of our
kitchen and whoever can just come and play.
(36:49):
And I think one of the benefits of that, that I've noticed is
that if that person is in the middle of something, and
sometimes as a lawyer, you can really get in your head and am I
doing this? Should I do this?
Have I done with that? Or, you know, you're waiting for
a response to the other side. Putting aside 10 minutes going
and doing that can be the best way rather than sitting at your
desk, becoming overwhelmed, burning yourself out.
(37:12):
The anxiety of all of that is isreally hard.
So yeah, I think anything that we can do like that, Lego
puzzles, even walks going, we'reso lucky to be in Broadbeach so
our team can go to the beach at lunch and anything like that we
are very supportive of because Ithink that is so important is
having those opportunities to clear mind during the day.
(37:33):
Yeah, that's beautiful. And congratulations to you and
Anton for knowing that the culture that you started in
wasn't the one that you wanted to continue when you opened your
own practice. Yeah.
And really taking that blank canvas and designing it to be an
environment where your team can thrive.
That's that's huge. Yeah, I think so.
And look, not everyone is into it.
Some people find it a bit, you know, I'd rather just work.
(37:56):
I'd rather just do this. And, and our thing is, if you
don't want to participate, then you don't need to.
But the opportunity is there. And, and when I feel most proud
is, is sometimes those people that are reluctant when I see
them all of a sudden engage withsomething.
And I think it is sort of different things for different
people. It, it makes me really happy
that they're finding something that really works for them.
(38:16):
And therefore we can have an impact in a positive way in on
that person. If someone's thinking about
transitioning into the world of law as a career, whether it's
family law or not, what advice would you have for them?
That's a very good. Question.
I think that having mentors in the space is really important.
(38:38):
I think it's something when I was a junior I didn't have and
when I took steps to find one. And there are programs, the unis
have programs, the Queensland Law Society or even our Gold
Coast District Lawyers Association have programs.
I found that that is such a gamechanger because it allows the
(38:59):
things that you're feeling wherecertainly I felt and I can
recognise in in our young lawyers that they feel that
they're really alone, that they're the first person who's
gone through this. Oh, I've made a mistake.
It's going to be, it's going to cost us all of this money or
it's going to the client's goingto leave us or, you know, and
the human, human mistakes. First of all, that's not the
(39:20):
first time that's ever happened #2 most of the time, like 99% of
the time, everything's fixable. And I think that having either a
boss or a senior mentor or someone you can go to that
reminds you that the world is not all on your shoulders.
You're not alone. For me is is everything.
(39:41):
And we get heaps of that feedback from our team as well,
because we try and say, you know, come to us when you're
feeling like this and come to usand, and talk about it.
You're going to have a much better outcome than if if you
stay where you are. So that's my first advice.
The second thing I think is, is that if you don't know what area
of law you want to get into and even if you do try other things
(40:04):
and see what what fits. I think when I was a baby coming
out of uni, I had these dreams of being, you know, some sexy
murders and acquisitions lawyer that was going to take over the
world. I ended up getting a job in in
family law and it was so perfectfor me.
And it is something now that I couldn't fathom sitting at a
(40:26):
desk all day doing mergers and acquisitions or corporate law.
You get no client interaction. You don't ever get to appear in
court versus all of the exposurethat I get in my role.
But there are some people that. Would.
Hate family law that love the idea of that and I really truly
think trying a few areas and seeing what works for you is is
really important. Great advice.
(40:47):
And is there anything we haven'tspoken about today that you
think more people should know, particularly around navigating
divorce and relationships? Yeah, probably the only thing I
would say is that I find if you are considering separation or
you're feeling overwhelmed and it's, it's one of these areas of
(41:09):
the world where everyone has an opinion.
And so if you go out with your girlfriends and you're talking
about it, everyone's going to betelling you things.
And it can be a bit overwhelmingand you don't know what's true,
what's not, whether they've given you any correct advice, if
it's helpful or what it otherwise looks like.
And I think that if you are thinking about leaving a
relationship, getting advice from a lawyer, even if you
(41:32):
haven't left, it's confidential,judgment free.
Everything is private. No one will ever know you've
been can be so helpful to makingsure that when you're making the
decision to stay or to not or what it looks like, you have all
of the facts and you have all the details and everything you
need. And some people might say that
that's underhanded or manipulative, but from my
(41:54):
perspective, I think it can be so helpful because that person
then can go back into their relationship and many stay, many
reconcile and stay and figure itout.
And that's probably something I haven't said, which is that in
our first appointment, we alwayssay, Are you sure?
Do you feel like you can reconcile?
Do you, have you considered counselling?
Do you want a referral to someone?
(42:14):
We work with counsellors all thetime.
We encourage that. But you can go back into that
relationship and if you ultimately decide to separate,
well, that's fine. You have all of your information
and you can prepare. And if you don't and you end up
staying together, well then you still have the comfort of
knowing that information in the back of your mind.
(42:35):
And I think in particular for women who maybe haven't been the
controlling person within the relationship or necessarily had
control of their finances, or even in awful circumstances,
people get told, well you'll getnothing, you'll have nowhere to
live, you'll be living with yourmum in wherever.
I think getting answers to thosethings before you make the
(42:57):
decision so that you can make the decision.
With all of the. Facts is just going to be such a
better time for you. I have people come in and say
they've said I'm going to get nothing.
They've said that this isn't worth anything that they're
going to get this and you know, within an hour I'm like, that's
not going to be the outcome. But it's the other person often
(43:17):
feared response that they say, well, this is going to be the
outcome. And so I, I do think that it
would be very beneficial for a lot of people having those
discussions before any formal separation, just to know where
you're sitting, where you stand,have some comfort, have some
knowledge. And then if you decide to
proceed, we can proceed. And if not, then that's
(43:38):
wonderful for everyone. I think that's such good advice
because otherwise, like you said, you're asking your
girlfriends, you're on Google, you're scrolling Instagram, and
it's just bombarding of misinformation and chaos.
And so just speaking to a professional, it, like you said,
it doesn't mean the relationship's ending, but it's
just getting actual knowledge. Yeah, absolutely.
(43:59):
And the number of people that say, my friend's mom told me
that this happened, why haven't you told me that?
And I'm like, because it's, that's not a, that's not
relevant here or whatever it is.And I'm sure doctors go through
it all the time as well. But I just think it can really
eliminate a heap of anxiety around the what ifs, give you
(44:19):
the information you need and allow you to, to, to prepare
yourself, look at your bank statements, make sure that you
know where everything's sitting,have an understanding and then
make a plan. And not having that hover over
you is the reason why you can orcan't do something.
Steph, thank you so much for your time today.
It's my absolute pleasure. It's been a blast.
(44:40):
I feel like everyone's going to come away learning a lot more,
and I'm going to put the links in the show notes of how to
reach out to you and your team if they want some professional
advice. Thank you again for being on
Reset. My pleasure, it was lovely to be
here. Thank.
You.
Hello and welcome back to reset.I am your host Ash Cam.
This week I am re sharing an episode with you that really hit
home for a lot of people earlierthis year.
It is an interview with lawyer Steph talking about all things
divorce. And I know it's not a topic that
we want to think about. I know it's not something that
we go into relationships necessarily thinking that we're
(00:20):
going to get divorced. But with the statistics sitting
around 50% of all relationships ending in divorce or breakup,
whether you're married or you'repartnered, I just think for
girls like us, it is important to understand these facts.
So whether it's you, your mom, your sister, or your friend
going through divorce, having the facts in front of you is
just so empowering. I know that people messaged me
(00:43):
after this episode went live andsaid, hey, Ash, thank you.
I'm currently going through divorce or I wish I had this
before I went through divorce and thank you.
I really needed to know this or hey, my friend is going through
this right now. It's a really messy, really
stressful time, and the insightsthat Steph shared have just made
(01:03):
it so much easier to navigate. Enjoy Steph.
Welcome to Reset. Thank you so much for having me
excited to be here. So good to have you here.
So I'm going to read this out tomake sure I get it right.
Yes. So Steph, you are the Co founder
and partner at Richardson MurrayFamily Law.
You are also Queensland Law Society accredited Specialist in
(01:23):
Family Law and we're diving deeptoday to talk about all things
divorce. Yes.
And fortunately, I'm an expert or fortunately for many people,
I'm an expert in in that area. Yeah, I feel like it's a topic
that is not spoken about enough until people get into a
situation that is very uncomfortable, very unknown and
(01:44):
quite overwhelming to be honest.Yeah, it's one of, I think it's
one of the most stressful thingspeople would go through in their
lifetime. Hopefully people don't go
through it, and if you do, hopefully you only have to go
through it once. And ideally we're there to guide
you to make it as easy as it canbe or smooth as it can be with
the least amount of damage beingleft in the wake.
(02:05):
Yeah. And I feel like there's a bit of
a stigma about the word divorce,but like anything in life,
knowing when to leave something that's no longer serving you,
whether it's a job, a friendship, a city, a
relationship, is actually a skill that I think should be
celebrated. Because what kind of a life is
it if you get to 95 years old and you've spent majority of
(02:27):
that time with someone that's nolonger helping you grow into the
best version of yourself? I totally agree.
Actually, I was reading a statistic this week that was
saying that something like 50% of the current divorces going
through the system have been married for 20 years or more,
which is a significant period ofyour life.
And it's a significant period ofyour life to make such a huge
(02:48):
change. So I think that's really
interesting. And I think as the years have
gone on and it becomes more socially acceptable to divorce
or or leave a relationship that's no longer serving you,
those statistics would hopefullygo down and people get more
comfortable with doing what's right for them.
Yeah, absolutely. Talking percentages What
percentage of Australians relationships do end in divorce
(03:11):
these days? The most recent statistic is
from 2021, I think, when the last census was done and it
doesn't have an exact statistic,but it is around I think 47%.
And interestingly, over the lastfew decades, that has decreased.
And the reason is because more people are in a de facto
(03:31):
relationship, not getting married.
And so it's not actually reflective of the number of
people going through, let's say,a separation or the ending of a
relationship versus the actual legal divorce, which is the
systematic process you have to go through.
Very interesting and great to have that kind of insight as to
why the stat is the way it is. I know because it can give an
(03:53):
illusion that more people are staying together, which is is
probably not accurate at all. Yeah, I feel like whenever I
talk to my friends about relationships, it's almost an
element of luck involved becauseas you grow through life, you
change as an individual. So the person that you started
dating or that you married is going to be a different version
(04:14):
of themselves as you go through life, and so are you.
And so I think pushing that stigma aside again, it's are you
growing in the same direction and are you still compatible at
all those different phases of your life?
Yeah, I think that's so true. And I mean, I know that from
personal relationships that I'vehad where I've changed and grown
and, and I think sometimes what happens is people are on the the
(04:37):
train, if you will, and they andthey don't know how to get off.
And so they they can see that it's all the red flags and all
the things that are that are notserving them and whatever else.
And you see it all the time withpeople in the news all the time,
like celebrities and influences that they have this wedding, the
giant wedding. And then within 12 months the
relationship's over And they allsay the same thing, which is we
probably knew two years ago, butwhen you're on the train, you're
(04:59):
engaged, you're moving forward, etcetera.
It can be really hard to to makethe call as to when is the
appropriate time to to jump off and to trust your instincts
versus everything else that's going on around you.
Absolutely. And I think it's those societal
pressures of what we should do rather than like hitting pause
for a minute and working out like, well, what do I actually
(05:19):
want to do? And that's not just with
relationships, that's with all aspects of life.
But what is the actual process of going through a divorce?
Yeah. So if you're married and you
want to get divorced and the lawin Australia says you have to be
separated for 12 months before you're allowed to apply for
divorce. And that's to allow for
reconciliation and not being in the business of just signing off
(05:41):
on divorces. It's, it's actually quite a
process. So you wait 12 months, you make
the application for a divorce. You can either do that on your
own or you can do it jointly as a couple, which can be perceived
to be a little more amicable. That gets filed and then there's
a hearing at the court, which isvery procedural.
There's no pointing the finger. There's no, no one's on the
(06:02):
witness stand. It's nothing like that.
It's very procedural and if they're satisfied that you've
been separated for 12 months, then the relationship's over and
the divorce order is issued. If you're in a defector
relationship, it's far more simple, which is simply I say I
no longer want to be here. This relationship from my
perspective is, is over. You then separate and that's all
(06:24):
the legal separation you need todo.
Does everyone need a lawyer to go through a divorce?
It's a very good question. No you don't.
You can absolutely self act. I'm biased in that as a lawyer,
I think that the benefit of getting advice as to everything
from the process to what maybe you're entitled to, to what you
(06:45):
should consider or think about is really important.
That's not to say everyone needsto run out and spend 10s of
thousands of dollars on a lawyer, but I do think it is of
benefit to be able to know whereyou stand, know what's happening
and then make the choice to to proceed.
And people come in all the time for initial appointments and,
and kind of, I like, I don't want to blow anything up.
(07:06):
I don't want them to know. I've seen a lawyer, but I say,
I'm not here to, to blow things up.
I, I'm just here to guide you. And if you want to be amicable,
that's amazing. That's what we support.
How do we best do that to be able to transition you through
this phase? It sounds like it would.
Just like anything, if you invest in some professional
support, it just makes it a whole.
Lot less stressful, absolutely. And even just the, the process,
(07:30):
the procedural forms, all of those kinds of things, they can
be really overwhelming. And it can be as simple as you
didn't take this box or you didn't attach this certificate.
So we don't accept your application for a divorce.
And it can like we have, I had aclient recently and she said
that she tried three times to file it and it had been
rejected. And so the benefit of having
(07:50):
that us is that we go, well, we dot our eyes, we cross our TS,
we know what needs to get acrossthe line.
So if if time and stress is of the importance, it can be of
benefit to just pay the money and to have the prepared into it
all for sure. Yeah, definitely.
And then I know in Australia now, superannuation is one of
the things that is considered during separations, which I
(08:13):
think wasn't previously, correctme if I'm wrong, but is
everything that you own on the table during a divorce or how?
Does that work? Yeah, it the short answer is
yes, everything. That is in my name, your name,
joint names. All held by a company or trust
that is controlled by one of theparties to a marriage or a
relationship is in the pool. Accountants have been trying for
(08:37):
many years to find avenues to avoid that, to circumvent that.
I guess the, the clearest way toexplain it is for a lot of
business people and, and tax strategies and whatever else,
assets can be structured in a certain way for asset protection
under the Family Lore Act, that protection is, is waived.
And the reason for that is, is because obviously there are some
(09:00):
relationships where one person financially controls everything
and the other person doesn't. And for asset protection and tax
planning and all sorts of things, it's just is the safest
way to ensure that both parties are protected and that one party
isn't going to be left with nextto nothing because one party has
better structuring or a better accountant or, you know, and I
(09:21):
can afford an accountant becauseif you're working as a teacher,
you probably don't need a, a day-to-day accountant.
So those are the kinds of things.
So yes, the, the short answer iseverything's on the table.
And then it just becomes who's entitled to what at the end of
that? OK, and I doubt that many people
enter a marriage thinking OK this is going to end in divorce.
But of those 47% that do, what are some of the common reasons
(09:46):
marriages end in divorce? Look, I it's an interesting part
of our job because in Australia it's a no fault policy, meaning
that who did what wrong, who left the relationship, who
cheated or anything. It is irrelevant.
It is simply that if one person doesn't want to be in the
relationship any further, the relationship can end.
(10:08):
And so because of that, the reason for the separation will
often not be necessarily determined or exposed.
Or some people don't even tell me, some people volunteer it
straight off the bat. But what I see is quite common
is obviously cheating that happens, that comes up
frequently. Just simply growing apart is a
(10:29):
really common one that I see allthe time.
And, and those ones are quite hard because I often find that
one person comes to that decision before the other.
And it's that almost that that stage of grief where one person
has grieved it during and then the other person finds out and
then all of a sudden has to catch up in that part of the
process, which I would say having done this for 16 years
(10:50):
can be. Really difficult for that
person. And then the other persons going
why? But they knew, but they, but
I've been very clear in it. It's just human nature that they
haven't caught up with what's happening.
Money can often be a big one either transparency, hiding
money, parenting, you know, different styles of parenting.
(11:12):
They're probably the the main ones I would say.
Yeah. So it sounds like some people
leave a divorce and it's just because they've grown apart.
But some people find themselves in relationships that are really
physically or emotionally unsafe.
They might find it more difficult to very challenging
and see a lawyer. Yeah.
(11:32):
Are there some resources and we can put links in the show notes
that you recommend? Yeah, we do a lot of work in the
domestic violence space and working in education and
prevention. One of the best resources is
there's a contact number called 1800 Respect and they are a
fantastic resource to be able toguide you to where you need to
be. Who could support you, who could
(11:53):
help you? DVD PC, which is the DVD
Prevention Center, domestic Advance Prevention Center and
they have a heap of support people that can help you with
everything from I wanna leave, how do I do that?
To how can I safely access fundsor how can I access
accommodation? Obviously an emergency, always
(12:15):
call the police, but it can alsobe really helpful to see a
lawyer in this space before it effectively you need to flee to
understand what you're going through.
I mean, a lot of people don't even realize that.
They sort of go, I'm terrified to leave, but I don't know.
Why? And then as we work through it,
it's oh, this you've been a victim of domestic violence.
(12:37):
This is what's what's happened. So through that process, having
a lawyer be able to say, OK, well here's what we're going to
need. How do we look at not just at
what happens on the day you leave, but for the next month,
for the next 6 months? What are the kids doing?
What are the pets doing? Where are we headed?
And I think that can give especially for someone who
potentially has been more submissive in the relationship
(13:00):
and and using the word control or whatever else it allows.
Them for the first time in a long time, some control over
maybe what's going to happen next and allowing them to, to
own their decision and then to find their way forward.
But yeah, there's wonderful resources.
There's also the Women's Legal Service that is for women only,
but they can really help you guide through the the system as
(13:21):
well. Yeah, that's great.
We'll definitely put links to all of that.
I think that's gonna be a really, yeah.
Might change some lives. So yeah, I agree.
If someone's currently planning to get married in the near
future, is there anything they should proactively do to prepare
for potential divorce in the future?
I know it's not very sexy or romantic but any advice?
(13:44):
It's so funny. People ask me this all the time,
both personally and professionally, and I say I
still believe in love. It's, you know, I'm all about
the weddings. And yeah, I think it's
wonderful, but I also think it is really important to consider.
Prenuptial agreement or a, or a cohabitation agreement, which is
the same, but if there's no intention of getting married.
(14:05):
So simply, you know, two people decide to move in together and,
and sort of solidify their relationship a little more.
My first tip would be it's very different to the movies that you
know. The hour before the wedding,
they're each in their room signing it and there's pressure
and it's this and it's if you put on weight then this happens
or, or this or if you cheat, this is the consequence.
In Australia, it has to be within the realm of what is just
(14:27):
and equitable, meaning what is afair outcome for both parties.
The benefit of doing a a prenuptial agreement or a
cohabitation agreement from my perspective is it's no different
to starting a business with a friend.
We're a business partner and saying, OK, we're all on the
same terms now. We all know where we're going
and where you know what our planis and we all hope for the best
(14:47):
and we all have good intentions.But what happens if this doesn't
work? And how do we ensure that
everyone is safe, it's fair, andthat we negotiate these terms
now while everyone's in a good headspace and likes each other
versus doing it when potentiallythere's hurt and grief and a
heap of other of those emotions.And we find that that has a much
(15:09):
better outcome for everybody than if you do it on the other
end. And I think it's particularly
important for people who are getting married or or entering a
relationship when they've accumulated wealth because it
just makes it very clear. This is what I expect.
This is what you expect. There's no issue and debate.
It's not relying on someone who said, I promise I'll look after
(15:30):
you or I promise I'll do this. It's really clear and more and
more the, the court is they're being, they're being held up,
they're, they're valid. And the court saying, well, you
went to the extent of entering into this agreement.
We have very strict rules in Australia about how that's done.
So both parties seeing a lawyer and making sure they have advice
on it. It's not just at the dinner
table. We all sign it, making sure
(15:52):
there's Full disclosure of financial assets and, and
transparency around that and making sure, as I said, that
it's fair for everybody. And the idea is you take into
account lots of contingencies. What happens if there are
children? What happens if one person stops
working? What happens if the asset pool
declines? We consider lots of different
processes and then find what's best for for you and then do
(16:15):
what what's best for you. But controversial, Some people
find it very unromantic and not in any way sexy.
But I think that for a lot of people, if they have been
through it, we're seeing more and more that for the next time
they want to know what they whatthey're expected to do.
Absolutely. Let's talk kids for a second.
(16:37):
If someone is in a relationship already, they might be married
or de facto and they're thinkingabout having children in the
future. Children change lives in so many
beautiful ways. But also is there, I don't know,
it's like a mid marriage prenup or some kind of agreement.
That's like, OK, if we're bringing children into this
(16:58):
relationship, maybe we didn't have a prenup before, but this
is going to significantly impactthe lives, particularly of
women. Is there any kind of agreement
upfront of, OK, if we have kids and then the relationship ends,
here's the Child Support agreement, here's the schooling.
Like what does that look like? Yeah.
You're absolutely correct. And look, this is something, I
mean, the, the one thing I should say is that the agreement
(17:20):
can't say what will happen to the children.
It can't say it's never going tobe enforced that we're going to
do an equal time 5050 or we're going to to they're going to
live with mom and not spend timewith dad.
Whatever it is, they will never do that because that doesn't
align with what the best interests of the children are,
which is what the Family Law Actrequires.
But what it can do, and I've done some recently, in fact,
(17:41):
more and more common, which say,you know, if if mom's going to
sacrifice her career in order towhether that's, you know, one
year of maternity leave or five years or that is actually going
to stop the career progression because of the impact it has, as
we know. Therefore, what does that look
like in terms of financial support?
And that's becoming more and more common, absolutely, which
(18:03):
is that they need to be compensated, I guess whichever
parent is the one who ultimatelysacrifices their career.
If it's the case that that is going to be the you stop working
or you're not able to be able towork to the full capacity.
It's becoming more and more common that that certainly from
even our staff that both parentsare actively involved.
(18:23):
If if you know, the child's sick, it's not just mom that
needs to go. It's now there are different
options, but there is nearly always a default parent who is
the one that has to take more hits than the other in terms of
those things. And that is absolutely something
that we can do if both parties agree.
Yeah, interesting. I feel like a lot of the reset
listeners are highly ambitious, career driven and actively
(18:46):
deciding do I have children or do I not?
And there's no right or wrong answer there, but I think the
impact on the career is a huge influence on that.
So it's very interesting to hearthat that's an option as well.
Yeah. And I think again, not
dissimilar to what I said beforeeven having the conversation and
broaching these topics because what I can find having done so
(19:07):
many at the other end, when everything goes pear shaved,
it's well, I would never have made those choices if I knew
that I was going to sacrifice somuch and I never would have done
that. And I think broaching that topic
and if ultimately one person says, look, I'm not willing to
put my career on hold to do that, and the other person says,
I am, well, great. At least you've had a
conversation and you've put in place a plan.
(19:29):
So much of it, I guess all of relationships comes down to
communication and transparency around those things.
And I think in this particular instance in having kids and what
that will look like, that communication which can be then
put into the agreement is is crucial.
Yeah, you're right. The, and I guess permission to
change your mind as you go, likewe mentioned before, you can put
(19:52):
all the best plans in place. And then reality turns out to be
quite different. And so having those ongoing
conversations of like, OK, we thought having kids is going to
be like this. It's actually like this.
How do we navigate that as a team?
Yeah, I think so. And again, with parenting,
there's so many times at the again, when everything goes
really bad where, well, they were never there and they didn't
(20:13):
help with this. And they and, and two people
have really different potential recollections and of what
happened when the, you know, baby was born and what that look
like. And, and I think it's just,
yeah, having those expectations and having communication around
if that changes, what does that look like and what's working and
what's not. And I think that I think more
(20:34):
and more couples are getting better at it as time goes on and
there's more education around those things.
Staying on the topic of kids fora minute because I feel like
anyone I know that's gone through a divorce, the children
are the messiest, saddest, hardest part.
Hardest part? How does that get sorted?
(20:56):
There are so there's a couple ofdifferent ways that that that
can be sorted the, the best way,absolutely.
And, and the court, I've heard judges say this for, for over a
decade, which is that the best outcome for your kids is going
to be 1, where as parents, the two of you decide what that
looks like and then support it because then you own the
(21:20):
decision. The, the children embrace the
decision and everyone supports it.
Where I think it gets harder is when there's no agreement on
that. So one parent says, I think that
the arrangement should be XYZ. The other parent says, I think
they should be this. And that doesn't align.
How does that look? Absolutely.
The education and, and studies show the children's exposure to
(21:43):
that the, the conflict number one.
But two, what we call adult matters, which are, well, your
mum does this and therefore, youknow, I have to do this and I'm
only doing this because your daddoes this.
That is not good. And the studies actually show it
doesn't really turn the childrenoff that parent.
It makes the children anxious about it.
It just makes every change over every time they have to go to
(22:06):
soccer and see both parents incredibly stressful for them.
So making sure that they are protected from that conflict,
the financials, child support, the whole thing is so, so
important, even to the extent ofthe children picking up on your
or a parent's body language and reaction to the other parent can
(22:27):
is proven to have a significant impact.
And so I guess to summarize, finding an agreement that works
for your family is always going to be the best outcome.
If you can't do that in Australia, you are mandatory
unless an emergency required to attend dispute resolution.
So mediation with an expert to try and nut out what that plan
(22:51):
looks like. And that's someone who can
challenge potentially some ideasthat one person might have.
Or it could be as simple as wellfor me, you know, Christmas Eve
is the most important thing. Is there something that you
really want that I can give up for you that makes it doable?
And then if that doesn't work and dispute resolution is, is
(23:13):
not successful, and again, partymatters can go really, really,
really smooth and then all of a sudden have a hiccup.
Often new partners can trigger alittle, you know, blending
families. There can be lots of different
trigger points. But if it all falls apart and
then it doesn't, we have the court there that can make
decisions. At the end of the day, the
court's job is to ensure that every arrangement is in the best
(23:36):
interest of the children. That's the only thing that they
focus on and that they have to consider in the children having
a relationship with both parentsand external family, siblings
and grandparents, et cetera, Butalso weigh it up against the
risk of harm and their children being harmed by the arrangement.
Whether that's obvious things like abuse, drug use, alcohol
(23:57):
use, mental health, domestic violence, but it can also be the
children having a certain attachment to one parent or a
sibling or a pet or it it could be any of those things.
So all of that gets considered in the bubble and a decision is
ultimately made. And one way the court can deal
with that. Because when you go to court,
you're asking someone who's never met your children, who
(24:20):
never will meet your children and only knows you from what
you've put in your affidavit andor how you turn up to court.
They're making a decision for your family for the until the
child's 18. So what they do is use child
psychologists and social workersto meet with the family to be
able to try and come to a what they think would work for the
(24:42):
family. And if there are issues in
dispute, there can be niggles orthere can be bigger things.
How do we navigate them? What can we do to improve that?
What steps can we take to make sure that the children aren't
exposed to this? And in all my years, what I've
found is that people reading that report, which is often 3035
pages, it can be a real, can be very confronting, but it can
(25:05):
also be a real education for their own behaviour.
Oh, I didn't realize when I did that that it had this flowing
effect or I didn't realize this.So it's a very long answer.
I'm sure you probably shouldn't need it to be that long, but
it's a complicated field. And at the end of the day,
everyone is working towards trying to find what's in the
best interest of the children. And I'm a really big believer
(25:26):
that often irrelevant of how farapart parents are, they both
actually have the best intentions.
No one wants to do something that's not in the best interest
of the children. They both think what they want
is in the best interest of the children.
But it's just different. Child support, yes.
From the outside I hear crazy stories about one partner earns
(25:49):
$200,000 and is only paying $20 a week, child support, things
like that. How is child support calculated?
Yeah, Child support's done in a separate jurisdiction if you
will, then to the Family Law Act, but it's still under our
umbrella. the Child Support Agency which is run by Human
Services Australia, Centrelink etcetera is done on a formula
(26:11):
base. So that takes into account both
parties income, how much time the children spend with each
parent over a fortnight and thena what we call a self support
amount, which is that well as a human I need XYZ to survive.
And then they will come up with a calculation therefore as to
how much one parent needs to paythe other.
(26:33):
So this is a system that has been designed for the benefit of
most people, what we would call,you know, public policy.
It's best for for the most people, but it's not perfect.
And So what can sometimes happeneven you can have an equal time
arrangement where the children are spending one week with mom,
mom and dad. And if one party has a higher
(26:54):
income, they're still having to pay the other child support,
which for a lot of people is, iscrazy because we're each having
them equal time. There are a couple of ways that
that can be resolved. 1 is, is that you can go through the
childhood agency every year whenyou update your tax returns and
do everything that will automatically update.
Really what we're seeing more common and preferred option is
(27:17):
that at the outset, again or or at some stage through the
process, the parties have a discussion and agree on what
this will look like. So for example, we have a 5050
arrangement. Rather than us worrying about
who owes who money, et cetera, here's how we're gonna do it.
We're gonna split all of the school fees.
We're gonna split the extracurricular activities and
then we otherwise will pay for everything, as they said.
(27:39):
Or we're going to keep our private health insurance as a
family because that's actually more cost effective than doing a
separate. Or we're going to do it this way
and those agreements get registered with the Child
Support agency and then become enforceable.
So that can be a really good wayof, again, navigating those
things rather than it being a trigger event that creates
animosity and conflict between people.
(28:00):
Again, the system's not perfect.I don't think it ever will be.
And in particular, if you're self-employed, what you know,
you have somewhat of an ability to manipulate your income, which
can create a lot of animosity between parties where yeah, one
person is, is earning significantly higher and paying
such a small amount in child support.
You can apply for a variation, you can apply for special
(28:21):
circumstances, but it is a complex process and I see many,
many times people getting a little fed up and just wanting
out of of having to deal with it.
And that's why private agreements are becoming more and
more popular. I'm learning so much, I'm sure
everyone listening is learning as well.
I don't know if this is true. It's one of those things that
(28:42):
just gets thrown around as a statement.
But if you live with someone in Australia as a de facto for six
months or more, is it true that when you break up you can take
half their things? Like that's the kind of
throwaway line. I don't know anyone that's ever
done that, but is it? Is that actually a thing?
It's, it's not a thing. I also have people, even my
(29:03):
mother-in-law, she'll say, oh, well, he can take everything.
And, and I said, why did you learn that?
I don't know. But I think it is one of those
myths, if you will, about familylaw that that pop up in
Australia under the Family Law Act.
The the law says that if a property adjustment being if one
person needs to pay the other person something, there is a
(29:26):
whole list of criteria set out that gives the opportunity to do
that. One of them being a minimum
period of two years, so much more than your six months.
And then sometimes it can be less than the two years.
But if there are other criteria such as if you have a child or
children together within that period of time, which people do,
(29:47):
if you start intermingling finances, so you know, we buy a
house together, well of course we're gonna need to sort that
out. If you start a business together
and it has significant growth and both parties have put into
it. So there are all of those
factors. Now if someone's entitled to
make a claim because of one of those factors, the two years
that the children intermingling of finances, etcetera, that also
(30:11):
doesn't immediately mean 50%. There is a process that they
follow. It's far too convoluted to go in
now other than to say they look at what the asset pool is, what
the contributions of each party have been financially and non
financially. Whether there are other factors
that are set out in the Family Law Act which include things
like who will have the care of the children, what is the income
(30:34):
earning capacity of both parties, that kind of thing.
And then at the end, the final step is, is it there?
And so it, it is absolutely not the case.
If if someone was in a relationship for 18 months,
someone moves into their home and hasn't contributed in any
way, then they're probably not going to be successful in an
application. The way that I frame it to most
(30:54):
of my clients is more so around have that discussion upfront and
consider a cohabitation agreement rather than having
that conversation at 22 months in going, oh, do I need to do
this or do I not because that's more likely to lead to issues
than if you have those kind of conversations upfront.
I'm very much an advocate for making sure that's sorted before
(31:16):
you move in together. Again, not very romantic, but I
think it can avoid a lot of hiccups in the future.
It sounds like you and your teamobviously are experts in the
law, but also double as psychologists and relationship
counsellors, helping people justnavigate some things that we
might suppress or just not talk about until it absolutely
explodes and hits us in the face.
(31:37):
I think that's super true. And I graduated union in 2008,
so a very long time ago. But we didn't know courses on,
you know, psychology or interactions or even how to
manage if I carries trauma or all of the things that as
certainly in family law, our team deal with everyday.
(31:58):
Because it is something that youhave to take a lot on and you
have to set personal boundaries.And I'm seeing in our junior
lawyers the biggest mentoring lesson we can kind of give them
putting aside skills is is aboutthose things.
It's when to step back. It's when to put in place those
boundaries and making sure that,that you're not being exposed
(32:21):
because sometimes when all you do all day is here, all the
negative things, all the conflict, you go home to your
own life and you go, I don't want to talk to anybody.
I just want to, you know, curl up in a ball and, and watch TV
or whatever. So I think it's, it is really
important and I, I think, I hopeit's something that as young
(32:43):
lawyers are going through their training and education that it's
something that is considered a lot more because it is hugely
relevant. Yeah, and I've, I've been to
your practice, met your team. I've done some workshops in the
past. Yeah.
So I know that you definitely put the mental and physical
health of your team as a top priority.
What about yourself though? What's your go to way of hitting
(33:05):
the reset button when it's just been hectic?
Yeah. I think it's something my
business partner Anton and I areso passionate about our team
having those boundaries. I think it's something that I
didn't have at the start of my career and it was a different
era. It was a different era in the
law. It wasn't a priority, mental
health and boundaries and those kinds of things.
(33:26):
So it's something Anton and I are really passionate about,
making sure that our team have those resources, employee
Wellness programs, and it's something that we get a lot of
positive feedback on. But for myself, it's a skill
I've developed over time. I'm not perfect at it.
I think it's something we need to work on all the time.
I think one of the things that Ihave gotten really good at is
(33:47):
knowing when I need a minute. So you can be going, going,
going, everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's
fine. And then all of a sudden
something happens and you go, this isn't even that big of a
deal. And my reaction doesn't match
what's happening. And it's often at those times
that I need to take a step back.And there are various things
that I do. 11 is that Anton and I have a very open relationship
(34:10):
about those sorts of things and so.
He will often be the first. Person, I'll say, hey, like I'm
actually really struggling because of all of these things
and I think it's been a bit muchand I need a minute.
So that's a big one for us. I'm an advocate for regular
therapy, which is something thatI do monthly.
Whether there's anything going on or not, which I have found
since I changed from going when I needed it to regularly has
(34:34):
made a very significant impact in my life.
I can't stressed that enough. I think it's been a game changer
for me. Exercise is absolutely crucial
for me again and otherwise a lots of mindfulness.
I'm a big, I pick up my phone and I start scrolling and then,
you know, people close to me would say maybe that's enough
like put your phone away and I try and do things like colour or
(34:58):
whatever it is, but they're really the things that that I've
put in place. Interestingly, when I.
Consider all these. Tips and tricks and I love
listening to podcasts and getting, you know, Wellness
things from everywhere. A big thing for my therapist was
as a high performer, she was like, the last thing you need is
to add five more things per day into your agenda.
(35:19):
How are you actually going to manage that?
Like, yes, it's great in theory,but it just adds to what's on
your plate. What we're trying to do is take
things off your plate and so youcan recover.
And I think that was such good advice.
I'm not a journaler because I, it's just another thing for me
to do. And so I find other ways that I
can look after myself without necessarily having to do every
(35:42):
one of those things that all of the things recommend.
And, you know, I think it's one of those things as the seasons
change as well, it's really, really important to make sure
that maybe that works for me forthat period and maybe it doesn't
for this, but I try not to be too hard on myself about those
things. Yeah, beautiful.
I think that's self-awareness and permission to lean into
whatever season you're in, in that particular part of your
(36:03):
life. I think a lot of people
listening can probably relate tothat classic high performer.
And I see this at retreats all the time.
People in, they know that they need to take a break, so they
book into the retreat because otherwise they won't do it
otherwise. But it can be super
uncomfortable when your default mode in your comfort zone is to
be super busy all the time, to suddenly just still with your
(36:27):
thoughts, with your body, with your mind.
It can be such an adjustment. So yeah, I think we all struggle
with that at different times. I agree.
And something we've actually implemented in our office in the
last couple of months, which hastaken off like no other, which
you wouldn't believe is puzzling.
We have like a giant puzzle board in the middle of our
kitchen and whoever can just come and play.
(36:49):
And I think one of the benefits of that, that I've noticed is
that if that person is in the middle of something, and
sometimes as a lawyer, you can really get in your head and am I
doing this? Should I do this?
Have I done with that? Or, you know, you're waiting for
a response to the other side. Putting aside 10 minutes going
and doing that can be the best way rather than sitting at your
desk, becoming overwhelmed, burning yourself out.
(37:12):
The anxiety of all of that is isreally hard.
So yeah, I think anything that we can do like that, Lego
puzzles, even walks going, we'reso lucky to be in Broadbeach so
our team can go to the beach at lunch and anything like that we
are very supportive of because Ithink that is so important is
having those opportunities to clear mind during the day.
(37:33):
Yeah, that's beautiful. And congratulations to you and
Anton for knowing that the culture that you started in
wasn't the one that you wanted to continue when you opened your
own practice. Yeah.
And really taking that blank canvas and designing it to be an
environment where your team can thrive.
That's that's huge. Yeah, I think so.
And look, not everyone is into it.
Some people find it a bit, you know, I'd rather just work.
(37:56):
I'd rather just do this. And, and our thing is, if you
don't want to participate, then you don't need to.
But the opportunity is there. And, and when I feel most proud
is, is sometimes those people that are reluctant when I see
them all of a sudden engage withsomething.
And I think it is sort of different things for different
people. It, it makes me really happy
that they're finding something that really works for them.
(38:16):
And therefore we can have an impact in a positive way in on
that person. If someone's thinking about
transitioning into the world of law as a career, whether it's
family law or not, what advice would you have for them?
That's a very good. Question.
I think that having mentors in the space is really important.
(38:38):
I think it's something when I was a junior I didn't have and
when I took steps to find one. And there are programs, the unis
have programs, the Queensland Law Society or even our Gold
Coast District Lawyers Association have programs.
I found that that is such a gamechanger because it allows the
(38:59):
things that you're feeling wherecertainly I felt and I can
recognise in in our young lawyers that they feel that
they're really alone, that they're the first person who's
gone through this. Oh, I've made a mistake.
It's going to be, it's going to cost us all of this money or
it's going to the client's goingto leave us or, you know, and
the human, human mistakes. First of all, that's not the
(39:20):
first time that's ever happened #2 most of the time, like 99% of
the time, everything's fixable. And I think that having either a
boss or a senior mentor or someone you can go to that
reminds you that the world is not all on your shoulders.
You're not alone. For me is is everything.
(39:41):
And we get heaps of that feedback from our team as well,
because we try and say, you know, come to us when you're
feeling like this and come to usand, and talk about it.
You're going to have a much better outcome than if if you
stay where you are. So that's my first advice.
The second thing I think is, is that if you don't know what area
of law you want to get into and even if you do try other things
(40:04):
and see what what fits. I think when I was a baby coming
out of uni, I had these dreams of being, you know, some sexy
murders and acquisitions lawyer that was going to take over the
world. I ended up getting a job in in
family law and it was so perfectfor me.
And it is something now that I couldn't fathom sitting at a
(40:26):
desk all day doing mergers and acquisitions or corporate law.
You get no client interaction. You don't ever get to appear in
court versus all of the exposurethat I get in my role.
But there are some people that. Would.
Hate family law that love the idea of that and I really truly
think trying a few areas and seeing what works for you is is
really important. Great advice.
(40:47):
And is there anything we haven'tspoken about today that you
think more people should know, particularly around navigating
divorce and relationships? Yeah, probably the only thing I
would say is that I find if you are considering separation or
you're feeling overwhelmed and it's, it's one of these areas of
(41:09):
the world where everyone has an opinion.
And so if you go out with your girlfriends and you're talking
about it, everyone's going to betelling you things.
And it can be a bit overwhelmingand you don't know what's true,
what's not, whether they've given you any correct advice, if
it's helpful or what it otherwise looks like.
And I think that if you are thinking about leaving a
relationship, getting advice from a lawyer, even if you
(41:32):
haven't left, it's confidential,judgment free.
Everything is private. No one will ever know you've
been can be so helpful to makingsure that when you're making the
decision to stay or to not or what it looks like, you have all
of the facts and you have all the details and everything you
need. And some people might say that
that's underhanded or manipulative, but from my
(41:54):
perspective, I think it can be so helpful because that person
then can go back into their relationship and many stay, many
reconcile and stay and figure itout.
And that's probably something I haven't said, which is that in
our first appointment, we alwayssay, Are you sure?
Do you feel like you can reconcile?
Do you, have you considered counselling?
Do you want a referral to someone?
(42:14):
We work with counsellors all thetime.
We encourage that. But you can go back into that
relationship and if you ultimately decide to separate,
well, that's fine. You have all of your information
and you can prepare. And if you don't and you end up
staying together, well then you still have the comfort of
knowing that information in the back of your mind.
(42:35):
And I think in particular for women who maybe haven't been the
controlling person within the relationship or necessarily had
control of their finances, or even in awful circumstances,
people get told, well you'll getnothing, you'll have nowhere to
live, you'll be living with yourmum in wherever.
I think getting answers to thosethings before you make the
(42:57):
decision so that you can make the decision.
With all of the. Facts is just going to be such a
better time for you. I have people come in and say
they've said I'm going to get nothing.
They've said that this isn't worth anything that they're
going to get this and you know, within an hour I'm like, that's
not going to be the outcome. But it's the other person often
(43:17):
feared response that they say, well, this is going to be the
outcome. And so I, I do think that it
would be very beneficial for a lot of people having those
discussions before any formal separation, just to know where
you're sitting, where you stand,have some comfort, have some
knowledge. And then if you decide to
proceed, we can proceed. And if not, then that's
(43:38):
wonderful for everyone. I think that's such good advice
because otherwise, like you said, you're asking your
girlfriends, you're on Google, you're scrolling Instagram, and
it's just bombarding of misinformation and chaos.
And so just speaking to a professional, it, like you said,
it doesn't mean the relationship's ending, but it's
just getting actual knowledge. Yeah, absolutely.
(43:59):
And the number of people that say, my friend's mom told me
that this happened, why haven't you told me that?
And I'm like, because it's, that's not a, that's not
relevant here or whatever it is.And I'm sure doctors go through
it all the time as well. But I just think it can really
eliminate a heap of anxiety around the what ifs, give you
(44:19):
the information you need and allow you to, to, to prepare
yourself, look at your bank statements, make sure that you
know where everything's sitting,have an understanding and then
make a plan. And not having that hover over
you is the reason why you can orcan't do something.
Steph, thank you so much for your time today.
It's my absolute pleasure. It's been a blast.
(44:40):
I feel like everyone's going to come away learning a lot more,
and I'm going to put the links in the show notes of how to
reach out to you and your team if they want some professional
advice. Thank you again for being on
Reset. My pleasure, it was lovely to be
here. Thank.
You.
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