You’re Not Behind: Navigating Your 20s & 30s - Interview with Psychologist Ally - Reset with Ash Cam

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Hey, welcome back to Reset. We have a special guest here
today who you might remember from one of our earlier episodes
where we dive really deep into ADHD, specifically ADHD in
women. So I have psychologist Ali here
with me today. Ali, welcome back to Research.
Thank you, I'm so excited to be back.
I had the best time recording with you last time and had such

(00:27):
a beautiful reception afterwardsas well, so I was very motivated
to come back and keep chatting. Oh.
No, it's so great to have you back and I found it fascinating
how many women listened to the episode.
And I'll link it in the show notes in case anyone missed it,
but just saying I felt so seen, so heard by that.
And then the number of psychologists that messaged, I
think both you and I and said thank you for this.

(00:49):
I'm now using it as a resource with my clients.
That's pretty special. It was like that particularly
was really special. I think I, I'd hoped that it
would resonate with people on anindividual level, obviously.
But then being a psychologist who uses podcasts as a platform
to, to help people learn about different topics as a resource
for them. That was so nice that I get to

(01:10):
be the the resource that they'resharing around.
So I'm glad it was helpful across a bunch of different
domains. Yeah.
And today we're diving to a different topic, but one that is
very relevant in my world, I'm sure in your world and the
clients you see and our friendship circles.
But today we're going to be talking about navigating your

(01:31):
20s and 30s. And I know that in the past it
was kind of like your 20s. Is this really confusing time?
But I did some research in the lead up to this.
And we are probably all familiarwith this like invisible
timeline that society has set for us of go to school, get a
job, fall in love, buy a house, get married, have kids.

(01:53):
Like, and not to say that shouldbe the path that anyone
necessarily needs to take, but the average ages for those
milestones now are all in your 30s.
So I'm going to try baby brain. I'm going to try and remember
these stats. But the average age for having
your first child now is 31. The average age for buying your
first house is 36 and the average age for getting married,

(02:16):
even though marriage rates are declining in general, the
average age for a female is 31 and for a male is 32.
So I think it's really importantthat we're stretching this sort
of conversation not just for 20s, but 20s and 30s because I
think it's beautiful that our youth is extended and we're
living longer so we can push back some of our our life goals

(02:38):
and milestones and stuff. But yeah, it's a really
confusing. 20 years, absolutely.Yes.
And I really like that you pointed out how those timelines
are stretching out because I think it's really important in
the context of where we expect ourselves to be versus where we
are. And I don't know that people
know that information that you've just said.

(02:59):
Like I think women don't really understand that those milestones
are being pushed out for so manydifferent reasons, which I can
speak to as well. So it's nice just straight off
the bat to hear that. Yeah.
The the, the timeline that we used to work on where those
things were happening earlier, that's not the case for the
average person anymore. The more realistic is that,
yeah, we're pushing well into our sort of mid 30s for those

(03:20):
those milestones. Yeah, and like I have coffee
each morning or not every morning, but quite often next to
a friend of mine and he's in his70s and we actually, yeah, so
sweet. But he's but he's also way
cooler than I will ever be. Hi, Greg, If you're if you're
listening, but we were talking about this episode that we were

(03:41):
gonna be doing today. And he kind of pointed out that
it can feel so pressured in your20s and now your 30s to tick off
all these milestones and to really have this goal and plan
and, like, structure in your life.
And he's like, but permission tochange even in your 70s.
And like, you're never too old to make new friends.

(04:03):
You're never too old to move somewhere else, to completely
throw your career up in the air and let it land somewhere that
actually drives you. And so, yeah, let's just give
ourselves a little bit of grace and know that life is short, but
it's also long. Mm Hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. Bless, Greg.
That is such a beautiful sentiment because it's so true.

(04:25):
And I love that someone at that age and in that generation is
able to, to speak to that because to be honest, my, my
initial thoughts in thinking about this timeline is not, is,
is that this isn't a new thing. This timeline expectation is a
historical one that I think we've had for many, many
generations. But the system, the society and

(04:46):
the economy that we've, we're living under now has changed.
And so the expectations around that haven't necessarily, but
the feasibility to do those things have.
So for Greg and you know, our parents generation, they did
still have that same timeline and expectation of buy the
house. And typically it was the men
have the career and you know, get the promotion and then have

(05:07):
babies. In your early 20s, that was
pretty standard. But I think now we have those
same expectations. But thankfully as women, we're
also able to have the career andwe're able to get the promotions
and things like that. So we can do that.
And yet we're still expecting ourselves to also then have the
babies at a particular age and we're expecting ourselves to buy

(05:29):
houses that are completely out of most people's financial reach
compared to, you know, the oldergenerations where the the ratio
of their income versus the cost of living was much, much
smaller. So it's an interesting lens to
look at where those expectationshaven't really shifted.
And in fact, there's maybe more pressure on women than there
ever has been. And yet we haven't adjusted

(05:52):
those expectations for ourselves.
Yeah. And that's a big one, right?
Like expectation versus our version of reality.
And then so that probably is a good question then like, how do
you as a psychologist recommend that we step back away from this
timeline that's kind of been brainwashed into us around?

(06:13):
Like these are the things you have to achieve by these certain
ages and work out like well A doI even want those things and B
if I do, what is my timeline? Like how do I get there?
Definitely, I think distinguishing between is this
something I feel pressured to dobecause of the expectation
versus is this something that I want is a really, really good

(06:35):
question. And I guess that's a that's a
process that as an individual you can go down where we think
about what is the motive underneath this decision or this
behaviour. For example, if we're fighting
really, really hard to get a certain career or get through a
certain degree, we'll use that as an example.
I want to be a doctor, and so I need to kind of get through this

(06:56):
degree. And that's a very difficult one.
If you find yourself, you know, throughout that process,
absolutely hating every single moment of it and it's hard,
don't be wrong. So there's going to be times
where it is just really difficult.
It's not going to be easy along the way, but if you're finding
that you're hating the process of what you're doing and then
when you do get the outcome, eventually all you feel is maybe

(07:17):
relief rather than joy or excitement.
I don't know that that's a values congruent decision
necessarily. Maybe that's one that's more put
on you for expectations, you know, based on parents, society,
whatever it is. We can apply that then to so
many different domains. So those life expectations of
buying a house and getting married and having kids, if

(07:37):
we're reflecting on the fact that during those processes,
we're not, we're not having a good time, we're not having fun
or we're not at least engaged and mindful and enjoying it,
then that might, might speak to that.
It's coming from a place of fearor expectation.
So when it's driven by fear, we're going to feel that sense
of relief when we achieve it rather than joy or or pride.

(07:58):
But if something's driven by values, we're going to be more
likely to enjoy the process. We still do have to be mindful
during that in order to achieve that, but we're going to enjoy
the process more. And then when we achieve it,
it's going to give us that senseof pride and satisfaction.
So that's one way we can kind ofdistinguish like where is where
is the motivator coming from andis it actually aligned with what

(08:19):
I want for myself versus what other people want for me.
Which is easier said than done right?
Like we have so many voices in our head and we're consuming so
much content and information from all over the place.
And I think it's kind of a rude shock as well.
Like when we're at school, it's so clear, like everyone around
you is moving from this grade tothis grade to this exam.

(08:42):
And then you do Graduate School and maybe some people go to
university and you've still got a bit of a traditional path.
But then it's just like out intothe big wide world.
And it's like, yeah, in theory you could do whatever, be
whatever, move wherever you want.
But that paradox of choice can be really stressful.

(09:04):
Absolutely. And yet I think we still put
ourselves in boxes. I do think we we do have all of
this choice and that is really stressful because we're not
being guided necessarily to say do this now, do this this way.
We do have all this freedom and choice, but then we also don't.
We have these kind of invisible hurdles that we set for
ourselves or that the world setsfor us that we feel like if

(09:28):
we're misaligned from then we'renot doing a good enough job or
what we've failed somehow. So that that makes it really
tricky. We have all the choice in the
world and yet if we do choose bypure freedom or pure pure values
driven decisions, then sometimeswe can still feel like we've
made the wrong choice. And I suppose that's tricky too.
Like, I like the quote, you can have it all, but not all at

(09:49):
once. And so how do you stop yourself
from feeling like you're behind or falling behind when you're on
a certain path? The people around you are on all
these different paths and comparison is very real.
It's not healthy. But how do you stop yourself?
Or is there even a way of stopping yourself feeling like

(10:10):
I'm behind? I'm not where I thought I should
be. I'm not where my friends are.
Or I'm scrolling on social mediaand seeing, you know, everyone's
highlight reels. How do we give ourselves a
little bit of a hug and be like,it's OK?
Yes, definitely. I think, I think the fact that
you mentioned highlight reels isa really important factor here

(10:31):
because that's something that wehaven't necessarily had exposure
to before our generation, you know, growing up with social
media and being exposed to the best of the best of people's
lives all of the time, every single day in an unlimited
amount. It's interesting to see how much
much that's impacted, how much we compare ourselves and our

(10:52):
timelines to other people. There's a concept called upward
comparison under social comparison theory, which is
basically the sense of that whenwe see someone who is achieving
things that we want to achieve that we haven't quite done yet
or living in a way that we want to, that's an upward comparison.
So we see them as you know, ahead of us in some way.
And what we also know about upward comparison is that 9

(11:15):
times out of 10, that creates feelings of inadequacy and not
feeling good enough. And that we're, we're behind in
some way. So that if we relate that to
then what it's like to scroll through your Instagram feed,
that upward comparison is being activated minute by minute on a
daily basis. So being really conscious of

(11:37):
that I think is a good first step to know that, OK, this is a
part of me that's kind of getting triggered just when I
open my feed and I see people's highlight reels.
The other thing to to note, I guess on the highlight reel
topic is that I think people know conceptually that you the
highlight reel is a highlight reel.
You're not getting to see all ofthe grit and the difficulty and

(11:57):
all of that. But also when we think about
achievement as a concept, this can maybe sound a little bit
demotivating, but we know that alot of people's achievements are
a product of luck and circumstance and as well as a
little bit of hard work, a little bit of opportunity too.
And that's not to say that, oh, what's the point and stop

(12:19):
trying. And if you've worked really hard
for something you didn't deserve, that's not at all.
People who work really hard get,you know, typically get what
they deserve from that. But we can't, we can't pretend
like being born into a particular family, being born in
a particular country, doesn't afford us opportunities that
other people don't necessarily have.
So if we think about that in thecontext of scrolling on your

(12:42):
feed and you see another person standing in front of a sold sign
in front of an apartment or a house and it's like, oh, good
for them, that's great. But you know, we actually don't
know the circumstances of that. They could have very fortunately
been helped out by their parentsfor the deposit or the price of
the house. We don't know.
They might have been gritting itout every single weekend.

(13:04):
And you haven't seen them post any trouble photos.
You haven't seen them post any expensive dinners because
they've been saving up for the deposit.
And so, you know, that was the path they had to take.
But the point is, is that you don't see any of that in the
background. You just see the outcome and we
know that when we focus solely on the outcome, our likelihood
of 1, the enjoyment of that waning very quickly is very

(13:27):
high. And two, we then feel like we've
got to reach the next thing. We've got to move to the next
thing if the focus is only on the outcome.
I liked what you said before, Ash, when you said, you know,
maybe we just need to give ourselves a little cuddle
because that self compassion approach is a really key part of
this ingredient. Once we remind ourselves that,
hey, you know, I might be getting a little bit activated

(13:48):
by that upward comparison. We don't know other other
people's circumstances or how they've maybe got here.
And I can kind of come back to running my own race and figuring
out what what my timeline is. And it's okay wherever I am to
be able to to recalibrate and assess like, okay, this stings.
This is hard for me to see otherpeople where I want to be, but

(14:09):
we can use upward comparison as a motivator and as a tool rather
than as something that just makes us feel like we're not
good enough. We can use it to go, I'm not
where I want to be compared to this person, so how can I kind
of show myself some kindness first and then try and move
towards that path? Yeah, that's a great point.
Like how do we flip the narrative around these highlight
reels and think about okay, wellwhat is this showing me?

(14:32):
Is it something I actually want or do I just feel behind against
societies timeline Or okay if ifI'm getting triggered by
everyone's travel photos or their house purchases, does that
highlight to me that that's actually something that's of
value and I should pivot my goals to make sure I can achieve
it within whatever time frame makes sense?

(14:54):
Exactly. I don't think it's inherently
helpful to just say, oh, don't compare yourself to others and
you know, do whatever you want and just ignore what they're
doing and run your own race. And that be the only message.
It's like, yes, that all is true.
That's all very valid. But also use it as an
opportunity to curiously explorewhat are my values here and if
this is something I'm you for. Is this coming from a healthy

(15:17):
place or a fear driven place? And you know, if it is a healthy
place, how can I just start to to turn the gears over and put a
few steps in place to get me closer to that goal?
For anyone that's listening and feels kind of stuck, and because
I know during different transitions of different seasons
of life, there's kind of for me personally, I don't know if this

(15:39):
is a common feeling, but there'skind of this discomfort where
you're almost outgrowing that season of your life and you're
ready for a new one, but maybe you don't know what that is yet.
Is there a way that people can get unstuck basically and work
out like, OK, well, for the pastfive years, I've been focusing

(15:59):
on X. It's no longer serving me.
I know I want something different, but I don't know what
it is yet. How do you get out of that
discomfort? Like for me, again, I've used
that as a sign and it's like, OK, you've outgrown this.
That's that's fine. That's normal, that's healthy.
But sometimes it can take a little while to work out what's
next. As a psychologist, if I was

(16:20):
sitting on your couch like this,what first steps would you
recommend that I take? Such a good question.
I think the first response that comes to my mind is why does
there have to be something that's next?
I think that is inherently showing that we have these
expectations of ourselves that like, you know, in our early
20s, maybe we're like universityBarbie and then we're like

(16:42):
career Barbie and then we're like house Barbie and, you know,
relationship Barbie and all of those things.
And I think it's about really like stepping right back from
that and being like, am I doing here?
Why? Why do I feel a sense of
discomfort because I've maybe come out of a particular season
or a particular focus in my life, whether it's career or
something like that? And why is it uncomfortable that

(17:03):
I don't have the next mountain to climb?
Because I think that speaking tosomething called the hiddenistic
treadmill, which is really this concept of like when we are
looking to achieve something, say it's buying a new car.
I don't know if you've bought a new car before Ash like brand
new, but it's a really nice feeling and it smells really

(17:24):
good like it's got the new car smell.
All the lights are really visceral and obvious.
You're. Like I'm a Volvo driver now and
then I'm going to be a mum so that yeah, I can relate.
We've got one just end of last year.
Exactly. Like is this my new mom rebrand?
But yeah. This is me.
Yeah, this is me. Yeah, exactly.
So it's really obvious when you get that new thing.

(17:45):
And it's super exciting to get something new like that.
And it's something we've been thinking about and working
afterwards. It's going to be so nice when
I've got car play and all of those sorts of things.
And then we get it. And what we know from the
research is that after about 48 hours, the dip in our mindful
enjoyment of this new thing justdrops off the face of the earth.
And so that hedonistic treadmillis, is that concept of we very

(18:09):
quickly habitualize or come backto kind of our homeostasis, our
normal programming after receiving something new and
exciting. But this is something that we
can shift. We have to remember that it's
not biologically or evolutionarily something that it
comes naturally to us. We're kind of meant to do that
and our our brains use that as atool to just kind of, you know,

(18:30):
keep on the path forward to survival.
But we don't have to worry aboutthat so much anymore.
So, but it is something we know that we can change.
So one way that we can change that is by asking these
questions of like, what what am I doing here?
What is the discomfort that I'm feeling about not having this
new project or this new thing towork towards?
And what would it be like if I connected to the things that I

(18:53):
know I value, the things that I know I enjoy, and just tried to
be really mindfully present in those sorts of things?
So that might look like, you know, if you're someone who
really loves cooking, it might be really mindfully engaging in
the process of cooking, of chopping up vegetables, of
eating, you know, without distractions and things like

(19:14):
that, and just sort of simmeringand marinating in using cooking
puns there. Yeah.
But I'm marinating in those moments so that you can savor
them and enjoy them more. And then what I think we find is
that opportunities naturally cancome up for us sometimes.
We don't always have to be in the pursuit of them.
And you might find that while you're living your life in this
mindful way, that that natural progression into new phases or

(19:38):
stages of life kind of just happen somewhere along the way.
So sorry that that isn't. I think sometimes people really
want to chase like a clear, like, you do this and this and
this. Yeah.
And it's kind of flipping that on its head and sort of saying
maybe we don't need that kind ofrelationship with the stages of
life. Yeah, it's so interesting.
And you're right. I think when I reflect on myself

(19:59):
and like my friends, we're always what's next, what's next,
what's next. And it's very rare to actually
sit in a moment of gratitude andenjoy whatever level you've kind
of just worked so hard to get to.
Absolutely. And I think I, I can relate to
that really strongly too, because as a psych, if there are
any other psychs that are listening, you'll know that the

(20:22):
process to get here is long and arduous.
And they don't tell you that in the, the first couple of years
of uni, they're like 4 years. It's fine.
Cut to 10 years later and all your training is kind of finally
done to be a psychologist. And that process really messes
with your kind of calibration oflike going on to the next thing
because there is actually so many things that you have to

(20:44):
tick off in order to get here. And so I found that when I, you
know, finished uni, it was like,right, OK, now I'm going to do
the registrar program, get all my endorsements, all my
qualifications, rah, rah, that tick.
OK, good. And then it was, OK, well, maybe
I should start my own business then.
That makes sense, right? That's what that's what people
do. And so I did that.
Sweet. And I was like, maybe I should
just open a clinic and I should,you know, just climb the next

(21:05):
mountain and do the next thing. And that isn't to say that those
things weren't important to me. They absolutely were.
And I'm so grateful that I did them now.
But what I found when all of that slowed down, and this was
not that long ago, it was only sort of last year and I'd done
everything, I was sort of like, oh, I don't know what to do with
this energy because you'd been sort of operating at this

(21:26):
frequency that was so intense for so long, like the better
part of my adulthood. So it is like kind of turning
the lever in the other directionand feels very uncomfortable and
very foreign to be like, no, I can just enjoy the time now.
I can enjoy the days, notice thethe sky every morning, you know,
taste the food that I'm eating and not have a million other

(21:47):
things going through my head. Yeah.
How? Beautiful.
And I, I suppose it's a balancing act, though, between
being grateful for what you haveand then enjoying that spark and
that ambition and that forward motion.
It's. It's hard.
Exactly. Yeah.
And I think. That's where we tend to end up

(22:09):
criticizing ourselves for one thing, or I think we can.
We can't really win sometimes when it comes to the the
expectations we put on ourselves.
But it is also OK to be ambitious.
It's OK to fight for things and it's OK that that means
sacrificing some things as well.This is something that I speak
to my clients a lot about, whereif you want to achieve certain

(22:29):
things and hit certain milestones, but you also want to
feel completely OK all of the time and never feel stressed and
never feel anxious or never compromise on your social life
or whatever, that is not possible.
Yeah. And it's not inherently wrong to
sacrifice temporarily these other values focused things in
order to meet a goal. But it's when we just want to do

(22:51):
it and do it. Florida State, that's where we
get ourselves into trouble. Yeah, I think.
Probably majority of people listening and feeling like, yes,
you're speaking to me right now.Some seasons of your 20s and 30s
probably harder than others. What are some of the pros and
cons of or should we even sort of name some of the different

(23:14):
seasons that people might be going through at the moment, if
that's helpful? For sure.
I think if we think about the, the decades that we're talking
about, obviously post school, we've got that early, those
early maybe uni days or if you didn't go to uni just kind of
working, you know, full time forthe first time.
There's a lot of flexibility in some ways in, in those days.

(23:35):
It's lovely, you know, not having these huge numbers of
responsibilities necessarily, not having so many people
relying on you, freedom to maybego out and party and those sorts
of things. So that era is fun.
And it's, it's, I think for a lot of people, this is certainly
not the case for everyone, but for a subset of those people,
it's defined by maybe some flexibility, which is nice.

(23:56):
And then I guess as we start progressing forward, whether
that's in our careers or, or ouracademics, then the weight
starts to feel a little bit heavier in some ways, but we do
start getting more of a sense ofstability.
So flexibility and stability kind of exists some ways on
opposite ends of a spectrum. So we kind of evolve into this
different version of ourselves where, no, we don't have just
endless amounts of time to, you know, go out drinking on a

(24:19):
Thursday night. But we do start to have that
sense of like, OK, I'm good at what I'm doing.
I'm enjoying, you know, the career that I'm in or my
friendships are maybe becoming more meaningful or I'm, I'm
getting more, more of a stable relationship as well.
So those things start to tick over and sort of our mid mid 20s
and, and later 30s too. And then speaking to what we

(24:40):
were just, we're talking about before, like the, the bigger
milestones start hitting, you know, at the, in the late 20s
and early 30s of houses, engagements, you know,
promotions, businesses, whateverit is.
And so then there is a real, I guess, amount of responsibility
that starts then weigh on us from that.
But we get to feel that sense ofachievement and belonging and

(25:01):
purpose and all of that too. So there's so many like pros and
cons as we shift through that the, the decade of our 20s and
then beyond that, you know, starting a family and pregnancy
and all of those things too. Like there's so much joy and,
and filming in those eras as well.
And then also, you know, we haveto accept that we're losing some

(25:21):
of that flexibility, some of that predictability and some of
that sort of like selfishness that we get in our early 20s
too. So it's important to note that
there are pros and cons in everyseason.
And to answer your question about are some more difficult
than others? I can't speak to that personally
because I haven't been through all of them just yet.
But I do think it's very individualistic.

(25:42):
I think some people really thrive in those early years and
some people don't. You know, I know a lot of all of
my clients, I'm certainly one ofthem.
It was kind of tough being in like your late teens, early 20s
because like going out every weekend was just, I was like an
old lady before, you know? Before I knew it.
And I just didn't feel like I fit in that season at all.

(26:04):
I found it very strange and uncomfortable and felt almost
forced to kind of keep up with people.
And now that I'm like in my 30s,this is the best, you know?
And so I think, I think the people who value and crave a
certain thing are going to thrive in a certain season.
So it's about also being kind toourselves and going like, if
this if this season that I'm in is feeling difficult, maybe it's

(26:28):
because I'm expecting myself to to engage in in a way that isn't
necessarily true to who I am. I think that's a nice reminder
for everyone. Just because your current
friendship group might majority of those people might be going
through a certain season doesn'tnecessarily mean it's right for
you at the time. Like, and we kind of talked

(26:49):
about those different seasons ina linear way, but there's
nothing stopping you like in your 30s moving overseas for the
first time. That's what we did.
We were kind of on this traditional path where we bought
a house and we were settling down.
I was like, you know what, I've got this, got this itch that I
need to fulfil. And then we move to London and

(27:11):
like spend years almost relivingour early 20s in terms of travel
and party and socializing. And it's like, okay, we kind of
have got to live that season a few different times.
And now it's babies later in our30s.
And yeah, I think giving yourself permission to be be in
a different season to your friends or to the people around

(27:33):
you as a really nice gift as well.
Being brave enough to dive in, yes.
Exactly. And I think I love that you guys
found your own version of that timeline as well, and you
embraced it as it came. Because something that can come
up, I guess, is people can sometimes feel like they've
missed the boat. Yeah.
You know, that we're getting into our 30s and it's like, oh,

(27:54):
I did not have my party era. Like, I kind of want to go back
to that all my travelling acrossSouth America era, yeah, six
months. And there's a weird kind of,
well, maybe not weird, but there's, there's this, there's
this idea that, yeah, no, we can't go back there.
We don't get to work backwards. And that again, is flipping it
on its head. It's like, why is that
backwards? Yeah, that's not, that's not a
back step at all. It's just embracing what you

(28:16):
feel is important. So I think that kind of speaks
to the, the trap that we fall into sometimes in the, the trap
of nostalgia and thinking like, Oh, I miss my, my late teens,
early 20s. I miss that kind of season of my
life because I had all this flexibility and I had all this
freedom. And now I've got a job and like,
I have to be somewhere all the time or I've got kids relying on

(28:38):
me or a mortgage or whatever it is.
And that's very valid. And that's very fair to crave,
you know, a sense of freedom when if we don't, we feel like
we don't have it. But we find that we do this in
every season in the sense of like, I remember, you know,
filling up my my car with petrolwhen I was at uni and I could
only put $20 in because that's all I had at the time.

(29:00):
It's like I had to make my pay last.
And I remember thinking, God, I can't wait until this is just
not something I have to think about.
So I can just fill up the car fuel and tap my cart and it's
full all the way and I don't have to worry about it.
And I'm very lucky and grateful to kind of be in that season now
where like the financial pressure isn't as strong.
But do you think that I feel grateful about filling out my

(29:21):
tank of fuel, you know, every single time it happens?
Absolutely not. I don't even think of it, which
is such a privileged thing to say.
But it's that it's remembering that when we look back in these
moments, it's with rose tinted glasses and we don't remember
the difficult parts of each season.
And we also don't anticipate howdifficult the next season will

(29:42):
be for a number of reasons. So being really mindful and
present and grateful for the parts of the current season that
we're in is one way to kind of combat that the trap of
nostalgia that we put ourselves in.
Yeah. There's that, what's that
trending audio on social media? And it's like, hey, you, you're
currently living in what youngeryou dreamed of or wished for or

(30:02):
something like that. We often forget that younger us
worked so freaking hard to achieve what we've got now and
then, like the fuel example, we just take it for granted and
we're like, what's next? What's next?
A constant hassle? Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And it's twofold.
It is important to be kind to ourselves when we have those

(30:23):
moments. Like, you know, there are
certainly days where I'm like, try and remember that you worked
for 10 years to get this job because it's a hard day or, you
know, and, and that, that can bea slippery slope to also then
not having a, a more compassionate approach and
remembering that it still can behard.
Even if it's something that you worked your ass off for, it can
still be kind of difficult. Some days work is hard.

(30:44):
We would rather be on holiday, all of those sorts of things.
So it's. But yes, it is also then twofold
of like, OK, what can I, how canI engage in my everyday life in
a mindful and grateful way to remember why I did this, you
know, and that it was something that I always wanted.
And. And that's a real practice of
finding even on the worst days, even on the ones where you're

(31:05):
just exhausted and you're like, why did I do this?
There's going to be a glimmer inthere somewhere.
You just have to look hard to find it sometimes.
Yeah. What advice do you have for
people that might have, you know, spent the 10 years
building a career to get to where they are today, only to
realize it's what younger me wanted?
It's not what I want now. And I know that there's so many

(31:27):
people probably listening that think, well, I did spend 10
years to get here. I might as well just stay in
this forgetting that we're probably going to be working to
where, you know, 6570. It's never too late to pivot me.
Like, yes, I did spend 10 years building the career that I have
today. It's OK not to want that.

(31:48):
And there's different ways of transitioning in and out of
careers and things like that. But how do you get clear with
yourself of am I just burnt out and need a holiday or do I
actually want to restart my career, for example?
That's such a good point that you said.
At the end there about the burnout piece too, because I

(32:08):
know and I feel like a lot of perfectionistic burnout prone
people might relate to this. I know that when things are
getting really tiresome and burnout is imminent, that's the
thing I fantasize about. I'm like, I could just be a
barista like this would be so nice being a barista.
I was a breasted all through uniand it's it's this idea, this

(32:28):
fantasizing about something thatyou know, doesn't feel as heavy
as the current work that I'm kind of doing as a psychologist.
So that's a pretty good indicated that OK, we need to
slow things down and and have some time off.
Yeah, as frustrating as it is because the last thing you feel
like doing when you're in that space and we really can't
justify it sometimes because we just have so much to do.

(32:50):
But have a break and see how youfeel on the other side of it.
And that break might be a weekend, it could be a month, it
could be 3 months. I like the term.
Adult gap year as well. Like, I know a few people lately
that are kind of, you know, entering their 30s and I'm like,
you know what, I'm going to takea year off and they plan for it,
they save for it. And then they just go and do,

(33:12):
maybe they travel, maybe they doa little career break, whatever
it is. But I think it's a really nice
thing to do for yourself to havethat space to work out well.
Am I actually really inspired about doing something else or
should I just need some chill time?
Exactly. Adult gaffy.
It sounds delightful. And it's just that expectation.
Like I think when people hold themselves so harshly, it's sort

(33:35):
of like, well, I shouldn't have to do this.
I shouldn't have to need breaks so often.
But again, it's about remembering that if you're
asking 100% of yourself every day, you will have to slow down
at some point. You can change how much effort
you give into the thing that youlove, and that will make it more
sustainable. But that's a compromise as well.
So yeah, I think that's a good point of let's just see, let's

(33:57):
take the time and slow down and really try and rest.
And rest can be many different things and it certainly isn't
many things. Scrolling on your phone is not
rest. Just launching into another
project or or endeavour is not rest.
So really being mindful of that and then having a very curious,
non judgmental assessment or reflection on after this, do I

(34:18):
feel like I want to go back to that?
Or is there a part of me yearning for something
different, a different, a sea change maybe?
And I think I loved that going through university is that a big
portion of my cohort through masters were people who were on
their second careers. And so that was so inspiring to
see these, especially mums coming through and they've got
kids at home and they're doing the same thing.

(34:39):
I don't know, doing this hard, but it's just me.
But what I loved hearing from them was that there was so much
that they could use from their previous career, no matter what
it was that helped inform this next one for them.
So I think it's important when if you are considering like,
gosh, I've worked all this all this time and I got to this
place and I don't want it, it's not a waste.

(35:00):
You're not starting over just because you've started.
You've got to start a new degree.
You're going to take all of thatstuff that you've learned and be
able to apply it, even if it's acompletely different career
because you learned more than just the skills for that
specific job. Yeah, that's really beautiful.
And I know there's a few examples in my life of friends,
parents that have gone back to uni like that in their older

(35:20):
age, but summer in their 50s and60s.
And you're thinking like, Oh, well, they're only gonna get to
do that job for a little while. And but if not now, when, like,
how cool they have the chance todo that.
I know one friend's mom, she went back and she studied
specifically to be a French teacher.
So she learned French. She did teaching, She went and
did student exchange as part of that, like in her 60s.

(35:43):
And I'm like, how good. Yeah, that's nice.
Reminder that for anyone that's feeling like it's it's too late,
my time is gone, I'm 28. Whatever you might be like, it's
OK. Like there's time.
Exactly. Yeah, I love that idea.
And also 10 years is still a long time, even if you only if
you do something from 50 to 60, you know, that's still a good

(36:06):
chunk of your working life. So it actually.
Inspires you like how beautiful exactly?
Yeah, for anyone listening, thatkind of feels like they're
behind and they've got this sortof FOMO happening.
Like what advice do you have forthem I think.
Reflecting on some of the pointswe spoke about of where, where

(36:27):
is this feeling coming from? What is the source of this?
I'm not enough or I'm not doing things as expected.
Getting a really good sense of that is going to help guide you
on whether or not this is a feardriven or a values driven
decision to change the season. So that would be my first
recommendation there. And then again, kind of speaking

(36:48):
to what would it be like if we just stripped away the
expectations or that that idea that you are feeling stuck and
just tried to be in every momentthat you're existing in, you
know, on a day-to-day basis, Trial that for a little while
and see what happens to that feeling of like, I'm not on the
right timeline. Because what we know, I guess

(37:09):
when it comes to the things thatpeople look back on when they,
when they ask elderly people whoare kind of at the end of their
life, what was the most meaningful parts of their life.
It isn't that they bought a house at 27 and they felt really
proud of, you know, that is something to be proud of, but it
is, it is never that. It's often that they say things
like take the risk and do the thing that you're avoiding or

(37:31):
that you're scared of and createmeaningful relationships.
Those are kind of the primary things that people say is
connect with people and be in the moment and enjoy it.
Yeah. I think that's a nice reminder
when we're thinking that we're not sticking to these other
expectations or timelines is like it's actually not what it's
about. Yeah.
Such a good reminder and I like that saying that confidence and

(37:56):
clarity comes from doing. And it's so easy for us to think
like I can't move forward in a new season of my life with until
I know exactly what I should be doing.
But we could sit there and just spiral in our minds for years
trying to work out the perfect next move and it doesn't exist.
Like, you don't actually know until you taste the food, you

(38:18):
don't actually know if you're going to like it, right?
And so back on our food, for example.
But yeah, I think just like you don't have to completely quit
your job, move countries change your whole life.
But just like dipping your toe in the water in different
directions can be a really nice way to be like, oh, yeah, I'm
getting warmer, I'm getting closer.
Oh, oh, I thought this would bring me joy.

(38:39):
And I actually really hate it. Pivot move.
Exactly. And I think the uncertainty is a
strength as well. When we're thinking about what
do I do next and I don't feel totally confident about or I
feel really uncertain. That is quite paralysing for
most of us. We love certainty and
predictability around things. But if you were to make a
decision and you're like, no, I know I've got everything sorted

(39:01):
out. I I don't need to worry about a
thing. In my experience, those people
do have things to worry about sometimes because what that
creates is quite a closed mindset towards like growth and
adaptation and like learning as you go.
Whereas when we feel unsure and uncertain and we've got a little
bit of that imposter syndrome kind of going on, we find that
that imposter syndrome does meanthat we're more likely to be

(39:24):
open and reflective about how wecan improve in certain areas.
So if you feel that way, you're on the right path.
Yeah, what a nice. Reminder and permission to be a
beginner again, I think is so liberating and knowing that if
you are thinking of completely changing careers, moving cities,
whatever, you are going to be green, you're going to be new

(39:45):
and fresh. And how do you just have fun
with that? And it means you can take risks
and you can fail safely without feeling like your whole job and
reputation is completely gone because of course, you're new.
Exactly. We don't grow in the comfort
zone whatsoever. So that's such a good point
that. You are going to learn the most

(40:06):
when you're messing things up and when things feel icky and
difficult. And it might highlight that,
well, maybe I've only ever done things that I'm good at.
If I find this really difficult,I find it really uncomfortable.
Maybe I've avoided things that push me in a different
direction. And so that again, can be a nice
reflection piece of like, why ifthis feels difficult, why I

(40:26):
think we're so quick to sort of just get away, want to get away
from the discomfort. I want to fix the discomfort
rather than using it as as a form of information, as a form
of communication from your body to say, OK, we can look at this
more curiously and figure out the why behind it.
Yeah. I sometimes say to friends, I'm
like, oh gosh, this is all greatcontent for your Ted Talk.

(40:48):
Like no one wants the. I tried this.
It was perfect straight away. The end.
Like, how boring. Yeah.
It's also just not relatable, not at all.
You're like, OK. Exactly people.
I think people feel more heard and understood and can connected
to those stories of like the path was not linear and we we

(41:08):
took all like your story. I think that's about, you know,
going and traveling in a different season or a different,
you know, expected timeline. I think people will really
connect with that and it kind ofgives them permission to go
like, oh, that little niggling thing that I've had where I'm
like, I just don't feel like I've done enough of that
traveling it, but I'm supposed to be saving for a house.
It's like, well, like, why? Why, You know, why is that the

(41:28):
case? Yeah.
So true. So if you're in a different
season to your friends, what aresome practical ways that you can
kind of approach that without resenting your friends?
Like if someone, if you're really striving to buy the house
and your friends got it and you're still two years away, or
you're really hustling with yourcareer and a friend's just

(41:50):
landed a dream job, like you're happy for your friend.
But it also highlights like, hang on, we might have started
from the same point and how comethey're so much further ahead
than me? What are some practical tips
around how do you navigate that for sure?
I think it comes back to what I said earlier around remembering

(42:11):
that we actually don't know the background context.
You started at the same point, but what happened in between?
And maybe you had the exact samelife and the exact same
trajectory. That's very unlikely though.
But even if that was the case, it's okay.
You know, for whatever reason, your path looked and diverted in
a different way. So I think practically one thing
that I'd say is I hop on about this a lot, but practicing

(42:34):
gratitude daily, like daily about the smallest moments that
you you can imagine because there's always something,
there's always a glimmer in the day, no matter how bad the day
is. And being really intentional
about it as well. It's not sort of that, you know,
when people say practice gratitude, it's just like, OK,
I'm grateful for, like, my friends and my family.

(42:55):
Yeah. Yeah.
Like that and those things, you know, we do.
Should we be writing? It down.
It's like what's like, yeah, yeah, give us the how do we do
it properly? So you do.
Gratitude is the one you're mostlikely to do is basically.
So for me personally, I find right before I start seeing my
clients, that just happens to bethe the time of the day where it
makes the most sense for me. I have my journal.
It's always sitting on my desk. So there's a visual reminder of

(43:17):
like, I do that thing. It's really simple things.
Like I think the other day it was literally that I had a
really tasty burrito bowl. And that was the thing I was
grateful for that day because itwas so delicious and they put so
much filling in it. And then other days it's like,
wow, you know, I'm so grateful for the work that I got to do
and the brave people that sat onthe couch in front of me and
like how amazing that they've chosen me for that path for

(43:39):
them. So it doesn't matter how deep or
how, you know, small this thing is, riding it down is a nice way
to consolidate it. I think a lot of people find
usefulness in that, but you findit in the time that you have.
If you're a busy parent who's driving around all day and
doesn't genuinely doesn't get a second to themselves to write
something down, do it in the car.

(43:59):
Do it while you're brushing yourteeth.
Pair some sort of activity with that moment of like, Oh, yes,
this is the time where I'm supposed to be mindful.
Something that my beautiful sister does with her three
kiddos at dinner time is the allright, we go around and everyone
says something that went well for them today and it's just
this automatic practice now thatthey all and they get really
excited to talk about one of thebest parts of their days.

(44:21):
So there are ways to incorporateit that don't look as
conventional as I sit down and Ijournal about it.
Yeah, that's. Beautiful.
That's reminding me. When I was in my early 20s and
living in a share house in Sydney, we wanted to kind of
shift the energy in the house a little bit.
And there was four of us girls living there and early 20s, like
we're talking about now, we're all going through different
seasons, different challenges. And so we bought this board to

(44:43):
put at the front door and we hadpost it notes there and it was
our gratitude board. And every day we had to come
home and write something on the post it note and put it on the
board. And then whenever we'd have
friends over, they would add to it.
And it really just started to train our brains to look for the
good. And then, yeah, it could be as
small as, you know what, I got to the train station right on

(45:05):
time for my train. Yeah.
Like I didn't have to wait those4 minutes or something in
Sydney. Or it could be the big
milestones. I had got a promotion at work,
but it was just that kind of creating a culture of gratitude
within the share house that was really special.
I love that. I love that it was visual.
It was like right there when youguys walked in and it worked for

(45:27):
that sort of environment and setting that you're in and
became something that you lookedforward to and you were trying
to find. And I think that's speaking to
the fact that like biologically we're not wired to think that
way. In fact, it's kind of unsafe.
If you think about just, if we were just always like la, la,
la, everything's really good andwe're not looking for any
threats ever, we would be in trouble pretty quickly, you

(45:48):
know, back with people if that was what we were doing.
So it's again, being like, you're not just this inherently
pessimistic person and negative,it's that you're having to
rewire things and that requires intentionality and consistency.
It's not just something that happens after one day, but
you'll find if after, you know, a few weeks or a few months of
doing it, you start embracing itand, and the lever has been

(46:11):
moved to the other side. Yeah, Ali, this.
Conversation's been really fun. I think I'm hoping at least that
people listening are feeling like they're on the couch here
with us today and they're like, yeah, you know what?
Navigating my 20s and 30s is messy.
And I'm sure if we had this sameconversation in 20 years time,
we're like, you know what? All of life is messy and no one

(46:32):
ever really has it all figured out.
But how nice to give yourself, like we were talking about at
the start, like that permission to change as you go through life
and not stick to this, like, timeline that no one's written
down anywhere. But it's kind of brainwashed
into US of certain things at certain ages.
And like, let's just have some freedom and fun with it.

(46:53):
But is there anything you want to leave our listeners with
today? Any final pieces of advice or
words or. Yeah.
For sure. I think if this is something
you're wanting to explore more deeply, like if some of this is
resonated with you and you're thinking, yeah, but like, how
can I prompt myself or reflect on how to sort of navigate these

(47:13):
seasons or, or accepting the season, I mean, or embracing the
new one or whatever it is. Then maybe reflecting on a few
questions, one could be thinkingabout what are the strengths and
the freedoms that of the season that I'm in?
You know, how, how am I able to embrace it for the things that
are positive and the things thatare going well, as well as
reflecting on the challenges? It's not about this kind of

(47:36):
toxic positivity all the time ofsaying like everything is great
and I, you know, can ignore all of the the hard things that I'm
facing. So reflecting on those
challenges and giving us of compassion and giving us of
grace for how difficult some parts of that season are.
And then maybe also thinking about what am I learning from
them and how have the challengesof this season helped me grow

(47:58):
into the person that I am? So I think that could be a good
start. The other last thing that I
would recommend is if you are finding that you're longing or
you're having that nostalgia trap come up, trap come up where
you're thinking like, I wish I felt this thing or I wish I
could go do this thing. Think about the feasibility,
genuinely think about the feasibility of embracing that in

(48:21):
whatever season that you're in right now, because I think we're
so quick to go. I just couldn't.
I just couldn't. And next minute you see these
families that by a bus and they take their kids and they travel
across like, you know, North America and it's so cool.
And that's that's not possible for everyone.
I understand. But I think there are ways big
and small to embrace that feeling that you have.

(48:41):
If you're wanting more freedom and flexibility, find ways to
embrace that. Talk to your partner planner
took to your friendship circles of how maybe you can get some
support to find those values or or attributes in your current
season. Beautiful.
Thank you so much. And if the people listening have
enjoyed this today, I think it'sa great opportunity to share it
with some friends, share the episode, and then catch up for

(49:04):
lunch or a beach walk or something and just debrief on
the different seasons that you're in and how to celebrate
that. And it's OK to be in different
seasons to the people around you.
You can learn from it, you can grow from it.
And I think we should probably do another episode one day soon
about how to make friends that are in your current season and
navigating all of that because that's a whole nother ball game

(49:26):
like in your outer life that no one really warned us about.
But yeah, Ali sounds. Great.
Thank you. SO.
Much for joining me in the studio today.
Thanks, Ash.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}You’re Not Behind: Navigating Your 20s & 30s - Interview with Psychologist Ally