In this episode of R & R Resilience and Relationships, Stephanie Olson and Rebecca Saunders discuss the critical need for trauma-informed training in schools and the challenges faced by parents when addressing inappropriate situations involving their children. They explore the mindset of denial prevalent in some private schools, the importance of recognizing and responding to trauma, and the necessity of creating supportive environments for youth. The conversation emphasizes the need for open dialogue about trauma and the responsibility of educators and communities to be prepared to support those in need.
Rebecca Saunders:
rebecca@setmefreeproject.net
TikTok:
https://www.tiktok.com/@that_single_mama_shops
https://www.tiktok.com/@wfh_single_mama
Takeaways
The mindset of denial in schools can hinder effective responses to inappropriate situations.
Trauma-informed training is essential for educators to support students effectively.
Disclosures of abuse are a sign of trust and should be met with support, not disbelief.
Trauma can manifest in various ways, and responses to it can differ among individuals.
There is a need for schools to create safe environments for students to disclose their experiences.
Understanding trauma is crucial for anyone working with children, not just educators.
The importance of consent and recognizing atypical reactions to touch is vital in trauma-informed care.
Youth may exhibit behaviors that are misinterpreted as 'bad' when they are actually seeking help.
Communities must be aware of the hidden struggles that youth face behind closed doors.
Open conversations about trauma are necessary to foster understanding and support.
Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean, and how do we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, an expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma, and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries and, sometimes, a few rants to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way and want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!
https://setmefreeproject.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Hello and welcome to R and R resilience and
(00:03):
relationships. I am StephanieOlson, the CEO and founder of
the set me free project, and Iam so excited because I am here
with I'll let you introduceyourself. Rebecca Saunders,
Director of programming with theset me free project, yes, today.
Oh, this is so exciting. We arefinally doing some podcasting,
(00:25):
and I am so excited. So here wego. Let's and I so I'm going to
let you start, because you had aconversation with a mom that I
thought was very interesting.
And I think it's worth havingthe conversation about. So go
ahead introduce what we'retalking about. So yes, I
(00:48):
recently had a conversation witha mom. She has a young daughter,
and there was a situation thatwent on at the school. And so it
was a situation where thedaughter had come home and kind
of said, Hey, Mom, thishappened, and didn't really know
that it was inappropriate, butdefinitely raised some red flags
for that mom. And so when shewent to talk to the school about
it, that's where the issues kindof started to happen. They were
(01:11):
not exactly receptive to whatshe had to say, Yeah, and what's
what's fascinating, and we'lltalk about what that means, not
receptive. But I think thatthere is this mindset. And we've
talked about this with humantrafficking, we've talked about
it with sexual violence and allthose things, but there's this
(01:31):
mindset of this can't happenhere. And so, yeah, go ahead
what you said. And so it wasvery much, I mean, as she was
even describing the problem, itwas, Oh, nope, that not here,
not here, and it just sohappened to be a private school.
And I think that we see thatmentality a lot with private
schools, not all, but some,yeah, have that. You know, we
(01:52):
are kind of shielded from anybad that could come in here. And
that's just not true,unfortunately, right? And why do
we Why do you think that?
Because I've seen two differentdynamics in private schools.
I've seen that dynamic, and thenI went to a school where we were
talking about human trafficking,and because the administration
(02:16):
was actually so well groundedand did such a good job at
making students feel safe. Thedisclosures were incredibly
high, which is a good it soundsbad. That sounds bad to some
people, but that's actually areally positive thing trust. It
is a sign of trust. Yeah. So nowgoing one step further, we
(02:41):
talked about this, that when theschool was approached again and
asked if they had been trainedin trauma and trauma informed
lens, they actually laughed, andit was as if they had like, what
are You asking me, they evenneed that? Why would we need
(03:03):
that? Exactly? So what is itabout private schools, or, I
shouldn't say private schools,this just happened to be it's
not. It's not. This justhappened to be a private school.
So what is it about schools orcommunities that are just
absolutely not responding to thefact that they might be
(03:25):
experiencing something that theyneed to investigate. You know, I
think it comes from a fewdifferent places, and so on one
on one side, I think it can comefrom just denial, almost like a
self preservation, you know, ifI don't address this, then it's
definitely not happening, andeveryone is safe, right? Wish
that, oh, there's no sign ofinappropriate anything around
(03:48):
here. And just really comes froma place of hoping that's true,
right? Yeah, that's also,especially in more like private
schools or organizations thatthey think, Okay, well, this is
a poor reflection on us ifsomething bad has happened, even
if it wasn't directly my fault,it's my fault. And I think that
(04:08):
there's a little bit of fearthat comes into play too. Of You
know, I don't want to beassociated with this. Maybe I
didn't personally have anythingto do with this, so I have to
say it's never happened andcould never happen, right? Well,
and that, you know, we haveseen, I mean, all we have to do
is look at the news to see theamount of School Administrators
(04:30):
or school teachers or coaches orwhatever that have been involved
in inappropriate relationshipswith students and have essay
issues going on within theirschools, you would think that,
just from a legal standpoint,schools would be more apt to
Yes, yes. So it's just aninteresting dynamic because the
(04:55):
importance of being trained intrauma, and here's.
The other thing I was talking tosomebody else. We have this
great opportunity to work withone of our local firefighters,
and they put on this amazingcamp for youth. And so Rebecca
had the opportunity to do itlast year. I had the opportunity
to do it this year. And so we'reworking with six to eight year
(05:18):
olds in the morning, and thennine to 12 year olds in the
afternoon, and it was a blast.
But here's what I learned reallyquickly, I'm way too old for
them.
They wore me out. There's areason you're a grandma at a
certain age, you know,seriously. But what we started
(05:41):
talking about was the amount oftrauma that we can see from just
a child in utero. You know, ifyou've got traumatic issues
going on even before the child'sborn, it is going to create
issues with with trauma. And sothat's why teachers and school
(06:04):
personnel have all need to betrained in a trauma informed
lens. Absolutely, I think it'smore of just, you know, wanting
to really support those kids wetalk about needing an education,
and, you know, childdevelopment, well, this is
really an extension of that.
And, you know, as we weretalking, I just kind of thought
back to a conversation that Ihad maybe a year ago or so with
a hotel owner. And I know thisis very different. You're
(06:28):
probably thinking, how does thisconnect? But when I was doing
human trafficking training fortheir staff, she had said, you
know, a lot of hotels don't wantthis training, because it's
almost like admitting that youhave a problem in your hotel,
and I think that that'ssomething that we really need to
help, just as a society, breakaway from that. Yeah, you know,
it's being trained. Having moreknowledge is not a bad thing.
(06:51):
It's actually a good thing,because you don't know when
you're going to need to drawback on that. That's right.
Well, and going back to thatdisclosure piece, you know what
happens, and you said it when,when kids or when youth, young
adults, adults feel safe, theywill disclose situations that
they need to. And by disclosure,I should probably define that
(07:14):
word. When we talk aboutdisclosures, we're talking about
youth or people who come forwardand say I'm experiencing a say
I'm experiencing humantrafficking, whatever it may be,
but I'm experiencing this, and Iwant to report it to you. That's
what we mean by a disclosure. Sothat can look like a number of
(07:36):
different things, but in thesesituations, when we're dealing
with something so severe, Ithink a lot of times people
think, Oh, we don't wantdisclosures. We don't want
disclosures, and certainly needto be trained on how to respond.
But disclosures mean that thisperson feels safe enough to
(07:57):
disclose. And you said it best,it's that they trust that
because, in reality, I mean,what they're disclosing has
already happened, and so it'sjust, are they trusting you
enough? Do they feel supportedenough to tell you about it, or
are they holding it? Yeah,that's huge. That is huge. So So
Did anything happen with thisschool? Do you know with the the
(08:20):
mom who, yeah, so what she toldme is that, you know, there was
that initial conversation, andthen someone a little higher up
in the school called, and theconversation went about the same
way, just that that could neverhappen here. And at course, she
got a little defensive, becauseat that point, I think any of us
would, and it was just met witha little hostility, of like, no,
(08:42):
that would not happen here, yourchild is making it up, which I
find so heartbreaking, just thatthat would ever be a response,
and that's the last conversationthat I'm aware of. So she did
take it up, you know, to reportit to authorities, as you know
we need to. But I haven't heardanything else. Okay, so this is
(09:03):
why people don't report. Yeah,because when they report and
they're met with this wouldn'thappen. I don't believe you.
You're making it up, whatever.
If somebody isn't as strong asthis mom was, who went and got,
you know reported even further,and we don't know what happened,
butthis is what we see so often,
(09:25):
and people are terrifiedto have people think they're
lying. And in this case, youknow this mom was reporting and
trying to address it on behalfof her young child, but let's
say the child's a little olderif they were having that
conversation on their own. Just,I mean, it almost brings tears
to my eyes thinking of how thatchild would feel. Wow. I'm just,
(09:47):
oh, you're telling me. I'm notsaying the truth. You know,
just, oh, I just hate that.
Yeah, I do too. It's, it'shorrifying. And I.
Think that literally every everyschool. And here's the other
thing, I'm going to just sharethis because I talked to an
organization at one point thatwas trying to do education about
(10:14):
some of this stuff in theschools, and I asked that, and
they were doing it with video.
And one of the things that thatwe do as an organization, we do
online courses for adults, butwe haven't found a solid way
yet. We need to partner withsomebody to find a way to do
online courses or apps orsomething like that for youth,
(10:39):
because they need an avenue tobe able to disclose, so to have
somebody we could partner withto be able to to achieve that
before we even attempted that.
And so I asked thisorganization, so how do you
handle youth disclosing, andwhat do you do if somebody needs
(11:03):
to disclose and her responsewas, Well, I assume the teachers
already know how to handle that,and they and I don't, they
don't, unfortunately, and I toldI was like, well, you'd assume
wrong. I probably shouldn't havesaid it like that. But the truth
is, they don't. I think that's areally common assumption that
(11:24):
anyone who works with children,especially is trained in these
things, and it's not requiredtraining anywhere, as far as I'm
aware of, or I've seen this, alot of ministers, too, of people
will stand and this is somethingthat actually, that mom was told
too that well, you know, pastorsknow how to handle trauma. Well,
they're not trained in thateither. Yeah, and geek out,
(11:45):
right? And unless somebody istrained in that, and, and
frankly, we should all betrained in that. That's not
something that's just limited toschool personnel or to pastors
or to, you know, socialservices, we really should all
be trained in what it looks likeand how to handle it, but
(12:07):
definitely those that work withthe public, you have to, because
the and here's what I We shouldprobably define trauma.
Yes, probably, so yeah, becauseI always say trauma is trauma is
trauma. Now there are a coupleof different kinds of trauma.
(12:29):
There's acute trauma that wouldbe like a car accident. You have
a car accident now there it's atraumatic event, and you respond
to that traumatic event. There'schronic trauma that would be
something that happensconsistently, so that could be
abuse in the home or somethinglike that. But then there's also
(12:51):
complex trauma. And we seecomplex trauma in things like
severe sa VI, especially inyouth, human trafficking, things
like that, that it'sconsistently happening, but then
it's extremely severe. However,trauma is trauma is trauma. So
what I might find traumatic inmy life, you might not, and vice
(13:13):
versa. But we all haveexperienced trauma, every single
one of us, and so it'srecognizing when trauma actually
starts to overwhelm thatindividual, and they respond to
it based on their emotions andtheir physiological experience
(13:36):
and things like that. Would youadd anything to that?
No, I love that you coveredthat, because I think sometimes
I do forget that we may not allbe speaking the same language.
And so it helps to define whattrauma is and what that looks
like. And I think so often, youknow, we think of that acute
(13:57):
trauma of, okay, it had to bethis big event, and if it's not,
then this isn't reallytraumatic, or I'm just being
dramatic. And, no, I think it's,it's important that we recognize
that this can take on differentforms. Yeah, and different.
Everybody's going to responddifferently. I mean, how I'm
going to respond to trauma mightbe different than you.
(14:21):
I remember, I was in a caraccident when
my kids were little. I wastaking my oldest to a birthday
party, and she was, gosh, shewould have been maybe five. So
Tessa, my middle would havebeen,
like, two or three years old,and when we the car hit us, and
(14:46):
we kind of veered off the road,and it was, it was a traumatic
event, airbags. Our car wastotaled, but Tessa actually
would not speak for quite awhile, and it.
And Noelle went off to thebirthday party like Noelle was
like, Well, you know, and so itaffects us so differently, and
(15:07):
our ages are gonna affect that,and our experiences and all of
that. And so it can look verydifferent in response. And
there's no one right responseeither. Yes, exactly. So
regardless of whether there'ssomething internal happening in
a school, every schoolpersonnel, every pastor, every
(15:33):
youthleader, everyone will experience
someone who has gone throughtrauma, and if we are teaching
them and we are in thatsituation, we need to learn how
to how to teach in a way thatdoesn't create more trauma and
impact them in a very negativeway.
(15:59):
And I think that. I don't knowif I would call it the happy
ending, but a bright spot inthis what she had told me is
that whenever she contacted adifferent school trying to find
a place for her child to go, shewas asking some of these
questions that hadn't come tomind before. You know, we often
do things don't come to our minduntil there's something that
(16:19):
needs addressing, and so she'sasking how handbooks are made.
Right? Organization makeshandbooks based on staff members
screwing something up. Yes,exactly. Go ahead. Sorry.
So she was telling me thatwhenever she talked to this next
school, it was completelydifferent, and they also had not
(16:43):
had training and trauma. But theresponse was not laughter,
thankfully, but it was more ofwhat, right? What kind of
response is that they were moreof the mind of, okay, we don't
know about this, so please teachus your child, and how can we
help, support and work together?
That's what we should expect,right of even if you don't have
(17:04):
experience with this type oftrauma or trauma in general,
like, let's work together andtry to get that knowledge to
support the people that they'reserving. Absolutely, you know,
it's it's really interesting,because we are seeing so much
coming out of schools, out ofchurches, out of we're seeing
all of this abuse. So we'reseeing inappropriate
(17:27):
relationships. And I say thatloosely inappropriate
relationships, it's it's so muchmore than an inappropriate
relationship when you've got anadult and a minor, but even when
you have a structure ofauthority, over somebody, any
sort ofmanipulation or any sort of
(17:47):
coercion, whether it be sexualor whether it be, you know, some
sort of unhealthy, inappropriaterelationship that is abuse, and
I think it's really hard forsome people to see that
sometimes, but we are seeingthat coming out of schools, out
of places that are servingyouth, out of churches. And so
(18:12):
we need to get better at beingwilling to recognize that we all
need to be trained in this, andwe need to be able to respond in
a way that is healthy and safeand appropriate, and frankly, we
don't want to cause more harm,right? We don't want to cause
(18:35):
harm. Yeah, and that's somethingthat I think even people with
good intentions who maybe aren'ttotally aware of the effects
that trauma can have, or what atrauma response looks like can
do unintentional harm, right,right? Well, let me tell I'll
tell you a story. So we worked,we got a phone call from a mom
(18:56):
who asked us to come and talk toher. I think it was her
stepdaughter and stepson,because both of them were doing
dangerous things on socialmedia. So the daughter was 14,
the son was 15, and he wasgaming. She was on social media,
and it was pretty bad. We made ahouse visit, which we don't do
(19:19):
anymore. And we walked into thishouse, and I can't even tell
you, talk about trauma, youknow, just what was happening in
the house. I mean, just the, Ican't even describe it, aside
from the thesmell of illegal drugs that were
(19:40):
going on in around in the house,and
the dirt and the mess, and itwas just a it was traumatic. And
so we wound up talking to thesetwo kids, and the girl started.
To tell us that she was inschool, and her teacher put her
(20:07):
hand on her shoulder and shefreaked out. And the teacher
said, What's your problem?
You're just going ballistic. Youneed to go to the principal.
Well, what she told us next wasthat she had been sexually
abused by everybody in thathome. And
(20:28):
so, yeah, so touch is not goingto be something, of course, and
and so if you're a teacher oranybody, and that's the
response, which I would consideran atypical response. Some
people don't want to be touched,so that's where consent comes
(20:48):
in, and we need to askpermission. But you know, even
if you don't want to be touchedand somebody touches you on the
shoulder, you might just moveyour shoulder, but that big
reaction Exactly. So when youhave that reaction, it should be
evident in that person's mind.
The school, the teacher to saythat was an atypical reaction.
(21:10):
Something's going on here. Whatcan I do to help this student?
Because what just happentraumatized her further. And
that's teaching in a traumainformed lens and how something
that support is needed and not apunishment. Yes, exactly. It
just went further. This wholesituation, the dad came in and
(21:35):
just yelled at everybody in thehouse. It was the it was a very
reportable moment, let me justtell you, but a very
uncomfortable situation. Andwhat I really walked away from
is we don't know what people areexperiencing behind closed
doors, and when we look at youthand what they're experiencing
(21:59):
and what we've seen, just youand I, it's horrific what some
of these kids are experiencing.
And so to not be prepared todeal with children who are
experiencing trauma is trulyirresponsible.
(22:21):
And I really do think that, youknow, there's a mindset out
there where those are thosekids, but they're not the kids
that I work with. And I think wesee that more. I don't mean to
pick on private schools. It'sjust the situation of what's
fresh in my mind. But you know,at that private school, I think
that's the mindset of, you know,well, they're not in foster
care, they're not right family.
I know their parents, so there'snothing that could have been
(22:44):
wrong.
It's not those kids. I hate itwhen people say that there are
no those kids, and if we onlyknew what was going on. In fact,
this kind of a funny story, butit was a really good experience.
So one of my neighbors and Iwere talking, and I was talking
(23:06):
about this very thing, and Isaid, you know, we just don't
know what happens behind closeddoors. And we could look around
at all of our neighbors housesand assume the best, because
when we see them outside,everybody's happy or whatever,
but when they go inside, wedon't know what's happening, and
(23:30):
it could be really bad. And shecalled me later that night and
said, I just need to ask you,were you trying to tell me
something. And I thought, oh mygosh, no, but thank you. You
know, isn't that amazing? Yes,because that's, I mean, that's
(23:52):
amazing, because that really, Imean, I know in your situation,
you weren't, but that could havebeen someone throwing out
absolutely, absolutely. And Ithink we need to be really
cognizant of those things,because it is tough out there
and and especially you know,like you think about what
happened during COVID, withpeople being home and at home
(24:14):
with their abusers and not beingable to leave, we know that
reporting of abuse in schoolswent down because it's schools
who so often report. And so ifschool personnel, whether
private or public school, aren'ttrained in that trauma piece, I
mean, things will be missed.
(24:40):
Yes, that's yeah, things will bemissed. So
I love this conversation. I lovetalking about trauma. Because
even though it may not be themost, I mean
trauma sucks, right? Nobodywants it, so we nobody, nobody
wants drama, but we do need.
To talk about. We need to talkabout how to respond, but I
(25:04):
think it's really important, andwe do that training. Those are
things that we love to do,because we all see it every
single day, regardless of whatit might be. Yeah, and I just, I
wish that,you know, it was a more
widespread mindset that this isimportant, because just like we
(25:26):
repair for a fire, we hope wenever have a house, fire right?
Fire extinguisher. Yes, we neverhave to encounter trauma, but we
need the knowledge that's thesame thing. Prevention is so
important, and you never knowwhen trauma might hit. I mean,
that's the other thing. Andthis, I remember you telling me
(25:46):
about this mom and when, whenthey called the school back, or
somebody was talking to them andand they said, Well, we do have
pastors who are available ifthere's a death in the family or
something like that. Well, ifthat were the only trauma, I
(26:08):
mean, that's that is traumatic,right? But if that were the only
trauma we were dealing with,it'd be much easier to handle
life, but it's not and so whoknows what could happen? So
yeah, we all need to beprepared,
yeah. And I mean, to that point,just thinking from a school
(26:29):
lens, there could be a studentwho has never experienced
something traumatic, and thenext time they come back to
school, an experience hashappened, and that's true,
and they might look different. Imean, that's the whole thing.
It's like, are you thenrecognizing has something
changed in that child? Did theycome back saying things
(26:51):
differently or or maybe in goinginside themselves, you know,
really isolating themselves, ordissociating a bit, whatever the
case may be, all of those thingswe need to be cognizant about
and recognize to see if there'ssomething we can do to help. And
like you said, I mean, everyonewill react differently, and I
(27:12):
think, unfortunately, a lot ofthe time, some of those
reactions to trauma are justlike naughty behaviors. I don't
even really like saying yes,being bad. There are no bad
kids, but Right? You know thatkind of mindset of like, oh,
well, they just need some morediscipline because they're being
bad today. Yeah, maybe they'reactually asking you for help in
(27:34):
the way that they can Yeah, thatthat is one of the things we see
in in schools, that when youthhave experienced trauma, it kind
of manifests in two differentways. Or, I'm sure there's 100
more, but one of the two majorways is they're the naughty
kids, right? They're thetroublemakers, and they get
(27:56):
labeled as the troublemakers,and that is a problem, or
they're the kids who reallyisolate and just, I always call
it, go inside of themselves,because it almost looks like
that. They're just going to beshy, they're not going to
communicate. And but it can looklike those. Those are really
(28:19):
common things, and but we see alot of things that can look like
seductiveness. It can look, Imean, it can look like so many
things. And so we need to be soaware of that. Very true. Yeah,
yeah. We did a podcast a whileago on the sexualization of
children. I would love to lookat that again, too at some
(28:43):
point. But here's what I willsay all of you out there, we
would love to hear yourthoughts. We want to know what
you want us to talk about. Andyou suggested Rebecca, we should
send out like a survey or a formor something, even on our
socials.
Yeah, because, I mean, we, wecould talk all day about some of
(29:06):
these things, but if you have aquestion, we want to make sure
we're answering your questionyes and no, I love that. And you
know what else we should do?
This is my thought, too. Well,this is my thought. You had the
other thought, okay, so, but wecould go live and publicize when
we're gonna go live, that'd befun. And so then we could have
people answering, you're askingquestions or whatever. And so
(29:30):
there's a lot of things we cando with this that I think would
be a lot of fun. And then itwould be cool if we could do a
call in show, but I don't know,we have to figure out all of
that stuff. So it's like a goodtime. Yes, yay. So I'm super
excited. Rebecca, I think thatyou should tell people where
they can find you, and I mean,all over the place where can
(29:55):
they find you. Rebecca Saunders.
Okay, well, obviously I'm withthe semi free project, so you
can hit me up there. I'm Rebeccaat set me free project.net. Is
my email. But on my personalside, I'm on Tiktok, probably
too often. So she's like aninfluencer, yeah,
(30:19):
but yeah, on Tiktok. It's thatsingle mama with underscores
between the words, so you canlove it. I do for fun stuff.
You do super fun stuff. And thenyou can also reach me at
Stephanie olson.comand I'm on Tiktok too, and all
the socials, but I don'tremember what mine
(30:43):
or Stephanie at set me freeproject.net. Yeah, we would love
to hear from you. So yeah, tellus what you want to hear. You
have any good tags?
Get some R. And R is what Ithought of last time. I don't
know, like that. Do you likethat? Yeah, I like that too, so
(31:03):
yeah, because that's ourresilience in relationships. So
I think that we'll do that.
Let's do that as our tag. Ithink that's a good tag. So
thank you for joining us, and wewill see you next time. Get some
more.
Hello and welcome to R and R resilience and
(00:03):
relationships. I am StephanieOlson, the CEO and founder of
the set me free project, and Iam so excited because I am here
with I'll let you introduceyourself. Rebecca Saunders,
Director of programming with theset me free project, yes, today.
Oh, this is so exciting. We arefinally doing some podcasting,
(00:25):
and I am so excited. So here wego. Let's and I so I'm going to
let you start, because you had aconversation with a mom that I
thought was very interesting.
And I think it's worth havingthe conversation about. So go
ahead introduce what we'retalking about. So yes, I
(00:48):
recently had a conversation witha mom. She has a young daughter,
and there was a situation thatwent on at the school. And so it
was a situation where thedaughter had come home and kind
of said, Hey, Mom, thishappened, and didn't really know
that it was inappropriate, butdefinitely raised some red flags
for that mom. And so when shewent to talk to the school about
it, that's where the issues kindof started to happen. They were
(01:11):
not exactly receptive to whatshe had to say, Yeah, and what's
what's fascinating, and we'lltalk about what that means, not
receptive. But I think thatthere is this mindset. And we've
talked about this with humantrafficking, we've talked about
it with sexual violence and allthose things, but there's this
(01:31):
mindset of this can't happenhere. And so, yeah, go ahead
what you said. And so it wasvery much, I mean, as she was
even describing the problem, itwas, Oh, nope, that not here,
not here, and it just sohappened to be a private school.
And I think that we see thatmentality a lot with private
schools, not all, but some,yeah, have that. You know, we
(01:52):
are kind of shielded from anybad that could come in here. And
that's just not true,unfortunately, right? And why do
we Why do you think that?
Because I've seen two differentdynamics in private schools.
I've seen that dynamic, and thenI went to a school where we were
talking about human trafficking,and because the administration
(02:16):
was actually so well groundedand did such a good job at
making students feel safe. Thedisclosures were incredibly
high, which is a good it soundsbad. That sounds bad to some
people, but that's actually areally positive thing trust. It
is a sign of trust. Yeah. So nowgoing one step further, we
(02:41):
talked about this, that when theschool was approached again and
asked if they had been trainedin trauma and trauma informed
lens, they actually laughed, andit was as if they had like, what
are You asking me, they evenneed that? Why would we need
(03:03):
that? Exactly? So what is itabout private schools, or, I
shouldn't say private schools,this just happened to be it's
not. It's not. This justhappened to be a private school.
So what is it about schools orcommunities that are just
absolutely not responding to thefact that they might be
(03:25):
experiencing something that theyneed to investigate. You know, I
think it comes from a fewdifferent places, and so on one
on one side, I think it can comefrom just denial, almost like a
self preservation, you know, ifI don't address this, then it's
definitely not happening, andeveryone is safe, right? Wish
that, oh, there's no sign ofinappropriate anything around
(03:48):
here. And just really comes froma place of hoping that's true,
right? Yeah, that's also,especially in more like private
schools or organizations thatthey think, Okay, well, this is
a poor reflection on us ifsomething bad has happened, even
if it wasn't directly my fault,it's my fault. And I think that
(04:08):
there's a little bit of fearthat comes into play too. Of You
know, I don't want to beassociated with this. Maybe I
didn't personally have anythingto do with this, so I have to
say it's never happened andcould never happen, right? Well,
and that, you know, we haveseen, I mean, all we have to do
is look at the news to see theamount of School Administrators
(04:30):
or school teachers or coaches orwhatever that have been involved
in inappropriate relationshipswith students and have essay
issues going on within theirschools, you would think that,
just from a legal standpoint,schools would be more apt to
Yes, yes. So it's just aninteresting dynamic because the
(04:55):
importance of being trained intrauma, and here's.
The other thing I was talking tosomebody else. We have this
great opportunity to work withone of our local firefighters,
and they put on this amazingcamp for youth. And so Rebecca
had the opportunity to do itlast year. I had the opportunity
to do it this year. And so we'reworking with six to eight year
(05:18):
olds in the morning, and thennine to 12 year olds in the
afternoon, and it was a blast.
But here's what I learned reallyquickly, I'm way too old for
them.
They wore me out. There's areason you're a grandma at a
certain age, you know,seriously. But what we started
(05:41):
talking about was the amount oftrauma that we can see from just
a child in utero. You know, ifyou've got traumatic issues
going on even before the child'sborn, it is going to create
issues with with trauma. And sothat's why teachers and school
(06:04):
personnel have all need to betrained in a trauma informed
lens. Absolutely, I think it'smore of just, you know, wanting
to really support those kids wetalk about needing an education,
and, you know, childdevelopment, well, this is
really an extension of that.
And, you know, as we weretalking, I just kind of thought
back to a conversation that Ihad maybe a year ago or so with
a hotel owner. And I know thisis very different. You're
(06:28):
probably thinking, how does thisconnect? But when I was doing
human trafficking training fortheir staff, she had said, you
know, a lot of hotels don't wantthis training, because it's
almost like admitting that youhave a problem in your hotel,
and I think that that'ssomething that we really need to
help, just as a society, breakaway from that. Yeah, you know,
it's being trained. Having moreknowledge is not a bad thing.
(06:51):
It's actually a good thing,because you don't know when
you're going to need to drawback on that. That's right.
Well, and going back to thatdisclosure piece, you know what
happens, and you said it when,when kids or when youth, young
adults, adults feel safe, theywill disclose situations that
they need to. And by disclosure,I should probably define that
(07:14):
word. When we talk aboutdisclosures, we're talking about
youth or people who come forwardand say I'm experiencing a say
I'm experiencing humantrafficking, whatever it may be,
but I'm experiencing this, and Iwant to report it to you. That's
what we mean by a disclosure. Sothat can look like a number of
(07:36):
different things, but in thesesituations, when we're dealing
with something so severe, Ithink a lot of times people
think, Oh, we don't wantdisclosures. We don't want
disclosures, and certainly needto be trained on how to respond.
But disclosures mean that thisperson feels safe enough to
(07:57):
disclose. And you said it best,it's that they trust that
because, in reality, I mean,what they're disclosing has
already happened, and so it'sjust, are they trusting you
enough? Do they feel supportedenough to tell you about it, or
are they holding it? Yeah,that's huge. That is huge. So So
Did anything happen with thisschool? Do you know with the the
(08:20):
mom who, yeah, so what she toldme is that, you know, there was
that initial conversation, andthen someone a little higher up
in the school called, and theconversation went about the same
way, just that that could neverhappen here. And at course, she
got a little defensive, becauseat that point, I think any of us
would, and it was just met witha little hostility, of like, no,
(08:42):
that would not happen here, yourchild is making it up, which I
find so heartbreaking, just thatthat would ever be a response,
and that's the last conversationthat I'm aware of. So she did
take it up, you know, to reportit to authorities, as you know
we need to. But I haven't heardanything else. Okay, so this is
(09:03):
why people don't report. Yeah,because when they report and
they're met with this wouldn'thappen. I don't believe you.
You're making it up, whatever.
If somebody isn't as strong asthis mom was, who went and got,
you know reported even further,and we don't know what happened,
butthis is what we see so often,
(09:25):
and people are terrifiedto have people think they're
lying. And in this case, youknow this mom was reporting and
trying to address it on behalfof her young child, but let's
say the child's a little olderif they were having that
conversation on their own. Just,I mean, it almost brings tears
to my eyes thinking of how thatchild would feel. Wow. I'm just,
(09:47):
oh, you're telling me. I'm notsaying the truth. You know,
just, oh, I just hate that.
Yeah, I do too. It's, it'shorrifying. And I.
Think that literally every everyschool. And here's the other
thing, I'm going to just sharethis because I talked to an
organization at one point thatwas trying to do education about
(10:14):
some of this stuff in theschools, and I asked that, and
they were doing it with video.
And one of the things that thatwe do as an organization, we do
online courses for adults, butwe haven't found a solid way
yet. We need to partner withsomebody to find a way to do
online courses or apps orsomething like that for youth,
(10:39):
because they need an avenue tobe able to disclose, so to have
somebody we could partner withto be able to to achieve that
before we even attempted that.
And so I asked thisorganization, so how do you
handle youth disclosing, andwhat do you do if somebody needs
(11:03):
to disclose and her responsewas, Well, I assume the teachers
already know how to handle that,and they and I don't, they
don't, unfortunately, and I toldI was like, well, you'd assume
wrong. I probably shouldn't havesaid it like that. But the truth
is, they don't. I think that's areally common assumption that
(11:24):
anyone who works with children,especially is trained in these
things, and it's not requiredtraining anywhere, as far as I'm
aware of, or I've seen this, alot of ministers, too, of people
will stand and this is somethingthat actually, that mom was told
too that well, you know, pastorsknow how to handle trauma. Well,
they're not trained in thateither. Yeah, and geek out,
(11:45):
right? And unless somebody istrained in that, and, and
frankly, we should all betrained in that. That's not
something that's just limited toschool personnel or to pastors
or to, you know, socialservices, we really should all
be trained in what it looks likeand how to handle it, but
(12:07):
definitely those that work withthe public, you have to, because
the and here's what I We shouldprobably define trauma.
Yes, probably, so yeah, becauseI always say trauma is trauma is
trauma. Now there are a coupleof different kinds of trauma.
(12:29):
There's acute trauma that wouldbe like a car accident. You have
a car accident now there it's atraumatic event, and you respond
to that traumatic event. There'schronic trauma that would be
something that happensconsistently, so that could be
abuse in the home or somethinglike that. But then there's also
(12:51):
complex trauma. And we seecomplex trauma in things like
severe sa VI, especially inyouth, human trafficking, things
like that, that it'sconsistently happening, but then
it's extremely severe. However,trauma is trauma is trauma. So
what I might find traumatic inmy life, you might not, and vice
(13:13):
versa. But we all haveexperienced trauma, every single
one of us, and so it'srecognizing when trauma actually
starts to overwhelm thatindividual, and they respond to
it based on their emotions andtheir physiological experience
(13:36):
and things like that. Would youadd anything to that?
No, I love that you coveredthat, because I think sometimes
I do forget that we may not allbe speaking the same language.
And so it helps to define whattrauma is and what that looks
like. And I think so often, youknow, we think of that acute
(13:57):
trauma of, okay, it had to bethis big event, and if it's not,
then this isn't reallytraumatic, or I'm just being
dramatic. And, no, I think it's,it's important that we recognize
that this can take on differentforms. Yeah, and different.
Everybody's going to responddifferently. I mean, how I'm
going to respond to trauma mightbe different than you.
(14:21):
I remember, I was in a caraccident when
my kids were little. I wastaking my oldest to a birthday
party, and she was, gosh, shewould have been maybe five. So
Tessa, my middle would havebeen,
like, two or three years old,and when we the car hit us, and
(14:46):
we kind of veered off the road,and it was, it was a traumatic
event, airbags. Our car wastotaled, but Tessa actually
would not speak for quite awhile, and it.
And Noelle went off to thebirthday party like Noelle was
like, Well, you know, and so itaffects us so differently, and
(15:07):
our ages are gonna affect that,and our experiences and all of
that. And so it can look verydifferent in response. And
there's no one right responseeither. Yes, exactly. So
regardless of whether there'ssomething internal happening in
a school, every schoolpersonnel, every pastor, every
(15:33):
youthleader, everyone will experience
someone who has gone throughtrauma, and if we are teaching
them and we are in thatsituation, we need to learn how
to how to teach in a way thatdoesn't create more trauma and
impact them in a very negativeway.
(15:59):
And I think that. I don't knowif I would call it the happy
ending, but a bright spot inthis what she had told me is
that whenever she contacted adifferent school trying to find
a place for her child to go, shewas asking some of these
questions that hadn't come tomind before. You know, we often
do things don't come to our minduntil there's something that
(16:19):
needs addressing, and so she'sasking how handbooks are made.
Right? Organization makeshandbooks based on staff members
screwing something up. Yes,exactly. Go ahead. Sorry.
So she was telling me thatwhenever she talked to this next
school, it was completelydifferent, and they also had not
(16:43):
had training and trauma. But theresponse was not laughter,
thankfully, but it was more ofwhat, right? What kind of
response is that they were moreof the mind of, okay, we don't
know about this, so please teachus your child, and how can we
help, support and work together?
That's what we should expect,right of even if you don't have
(17:04):
experience with this type oftrauma or trauma in general,
like, let's work together andtry to get that knowledge to
support the people that they'reserving. Absolutely, you know,
it's it's really interesting,because we are seeing so much
coming out of schools, out ofchurches, out of we're seeing
all of this abuse. So we'reseeing inappropriate
(17:27):
relationships. And I say thatloosely inappropriate
relationships, it's it's so muchmore than an inappropriate
relationship when you've got anadult and a minor, but even when
you have a structure ofauthority, over somebody, any
sort ofmanipulation or any sort of
(17:47):
coercion, whether it be sexualor whether it be, you know, some
sort of unhealthy, inappropriaterelationship that is abuse, and
I think it's really hard forsome people to see that
sometimes, but we are seeingthat coming out of schools, out
of places that are servingyouth, out of churches. And so
(18:12):
we need to get better at beingwilling to recognize that we all
need to be trained in this, andwe need to be able to respond in
a way that is healthy and safeand appropriate, and frankly, we
don't want to cause more harm,right? We don't want to cause
(18:35):
harm. Yeah, and that's somethingthat I think even people with
good intentions who maybe aren'ttotally aware of the effects
that trauma can have, or what atrauma response looks like can
do unintentional harm, right,right? Well, let me tell I'll
tell you a story. So we worked,we got a phone call from a mom
(18:56):
who asked us to come and talk toher. I think it was her
stepdaughter and stepson,because both of them were doing
dangerous things on socialmedia. So the daughter was 14,
the son was 15, and he wasgaming. She was on social media,
and it was pretty bad. We made ahouse visit, which we don't do
(19:19):
anymore. And we walked into thishouse, and I can't even tell
you, talk about trauma, youknow, just what was happening in
the house. I mean, just the, Ican't even describe it, aside
from the thesmell of illegal drugs that were
(19:40):
going on in around in the house,and
the dirt and the mess, and itwas just a it was traumatic. And
so we wound up talking to thesetwo kids, and the girl started.
To tell us that she was inschool, and her teacher put her
(20:07):
hand on her shoulder and shefreaked out. And the teacher
said, What's your problem?
You're just going ballistic. Youneed to go to the principal.
Well, what she told us next wasthat she had been sexually
abused by everybody in thathome. And
(20:28):
so, yeah, so touch is not goingto be something, of course, and
and so if you're a teacher oranybody, and that's the
response, which I would consideran atypical response. Some
people don't want to be touched,so that's where consent comes
(20:48):
in, and we need to askpermission. But you know, even
if you don't want to be touchedand somebody touches you on the
shoulder, you might just moveyour shoulder, but that big
reaction Exactly. So when youhave that reaction, it should be
evident in that person's mind.
The school, the teacher to saythat was an atypical reaction.
(21:10):
Something's going on here. Whatcan I do to help this student?
Because what just happentraumatized her further. And
that's teaching in a traumainformed lens and how something
that support is needed and not apunishment. Yes, exactly. It
just went further. This wholesituation, the dad came in and
(21:35):
just yelled at everybody in thehouse. It was the it was a very
reportable moment, let me justtell you, but a very
uncomfortable situation. Andwhat I really walked away from
is we don't know what people areexperiencing behind closed
doors, and when we look at youthand what they're experiencing
(21:59):
and what we've seen, just youand I, it's horrific what some
of these kids are experiencing.
And so to not be prepared todeal with children who are
experiencing trauma is trulyirresponsible.
(22:21):
And I really do think that, youknow, there's a mindset out
there where those are thosekids, but they're not the kids
that I work with. And I think wesee that more. I don't mean to
pick on private schools. It'sjust the situation of what's
fresh in my mind. But you know,at that private school, I think
that's the mindset of, you know,well, they're not in foster
care, they're not right family.
I know their parents, so there'snothing that could have been
(22:44):
wrong.
It's not those kids. I hate itwhen people say that there are
no those kids, and if we onlyknew what was going on. In fact,
this kind of a funny story, butit was a really good experience.
So one of my neighbors and Iwere talking, and I was talking
(23:06):
about this very thing, and Isaid, you know, we just don't
know what happens behind closeddoors. And we could look around
at all of our neighbors housesand assume the best, because
when we see them outside,everybody's happy or whatever,
but when they go inside, wedon't know what's happening, and
(23:30):
it could be really bad. And shecalled me later that night and
said, I just need to ask you,were you trying to tell me
something. And I thought, oh mygosh, no, but thank you. You
know, isn't that amazing? Yes,because that's, I mean, that's
(23:52):
amazing, because that really, Imean, I know in your situation,
you weren't, but that could havebeen someone throwing out
absolutely, absolutely. And Ithink we need to be really
cognizant of those things,because it is tough out there
and and especially you know,like you think about what
happened during COVID, withpeople being home and at home
(24:14):
with their abusers and not beingable to leave, we know that
reporting of abuse in schoolswent down because it's schools
who so often report. And so ifschool personnel, whether
private or public school, aren'ttrained in that trauma piece, I
mean, things will be missed.
(24:40):
Yes, that's yeah, things will bemissed. So
I love this conversation. I lovetalking about trauma. Because
even though it may not be themost, I mean
trauma sucks, right? Nobodywants it, so we nobody, nobody
wants drama, but we do need.
To talk about. We need to talkabout how to respond, but I
(25:04):
think it's really important, andwe do that training. Those are
things that we love to do,because we all see it every
single day, regardless of whatit might be. Yeah, and I just, I
wish that,you know, it was a more
widespread mindset that this isimportant, because just like we
(25:26):
repair for a fire, we hope wenever have a house, fire right?
Fire extinguisher. Yes, we neverhave to encounter trauma, but we
need the knowledge that's thesame thing. Prevention is so
important, and you never knowwhen trauma might hit. I mean,
that's the other thing. Andthis, I remember you telling me
(25:46):
about this mom and when, whenthey called the school back, or
somebody was talking to them andand they said, Well, we do have
pastors who are available ifthere's a death in the family or
something like that. Well, ifthat were the only trauma, I
(26:08):
mean, that's that is traumatic,right? But if that were the only
trauma we were dealing with,it'd be much easier to handle
life, but it's not and so whoknows what could happen? So
yeah, we all need to beprepared,
yeah. And I mean, to that point,just thinking from a school
(26:29):
lens, there could be a studentwho has never experienced
something traumatic, and thenext time they come back to
school, an experience hashappened, and that's true,
and they might look different. Imean, that's the whole thing.
It's like, are you thenrecognizing has something
changed in that child? Did theycome back saying things
(26:51):
differently or or maybe in goinginside themselves, you know,
really isolating themselves, ordissociating a bit, whatever the
case may be, all of those thingswe need to be cognizant about
and recognize to see if there'ssomething we can do to help. And
like you said, I mean, everyonewill react differently, and I
(27:12):
think, unfortunately, a lot ofthe time, some of those
reactions to trauma are justlike naughty behaviors. I don't
even really like saying yes,being bad. There are no bad
kids, but Right? You know thatkind of mindset of like, oh,
well, they just need some morediscipline because they're being
bad today. Yeah, maybe they'reactually asking you for help in
(27:34):
the way that they can Yeah, thatthat is one of the things we see
in in schools, that when youthhave experienced trauma, it kind
of manifests in two differentways. Or, I'm sure there's 100
more, but one of the two majorways is they're the naughty
kids, right? They're thetroublemakers, and they get
(27:56):
labeled as the troublemakers,and that is a problem, or
they're the kids who reallyisolate and just, I always call
it, go inside of themselves,because it almost looks like
that. They're just going to beshy, they're not going to
communicate. And but it can looklike those. Those are really
(28:19):
common things, and but we see alot of things that can look like
seductiveness. It can look, Imean, it can look like so many
things. And so we need to be soaware of that. Very true. Yeah,
yeah. We did a podcast a whileago on the sexualization of
children. I would love to lookat that again, too at some
(28:43):
point. But here's what I willsay all of you out there, we
would love to hear yourthoughts. We want to know what
you want us to talk about. Andyou suggested Rebecca, we should
send out like a survey or a formor something, even on our
socials.
Yeah, because, I mean, we, wecould talk all day about some of
(29:06):
these things, but if you have aquestion, we want to make sure
we're answering your questionyes and no, I love that. And you
know what else we should do?
This is my thought, too. Well,this is my thought. You had the
other thought, okay, so, but wecould go live and publicize when
we're gonna go live, that'd befun. And so then we could have
people answering, you're askingquestions or whatever. And so
(29:30):
there's a lot of things we cando with this that I think would
be a lot of fun. And then itwould be cool if we could do a
call in show, but I don't know,we have to figure out all of
that stuff. So it's like a goodtime. Yes, yay. So I'm super
excited. Rebecca, I think thatyou should tell people where
they can find you, and I mean,all over the place where can
(29:55):
they find you. Rebecca Saunders.
Okay, well, obviously I'm withthe semi free project, so you
can hit me up there. I'm Rebeccaat set me free project.net. Is
my email. But on my personalside, I'm on Tiktok, probably
too often. So she's like aninfluencer, yeah,
(30:19):
but yeah, on Tiktok. It's thatsingle mama with underscores
between the words, so you canlove it. I do for fun stuff.
You do super fun stuff. And thenyou can also reach me at
Stephanie olson.comand I'm on Tiktok too, and all
the socials, but I don'tremember what mine
(30:43):
or Stephanie at set me freeproject.net. Yeah, we would love
to hear from you. So yeah, tellus what you want to hear. You
have any good tags?
Get some R. And R is what Ithought of last time. I don't
know, like that. Do you likethat? Yeah, I like that too, so
(31:03):
yeah, because that's ourresilience in relationships. So
I think that we'll do that.
Let's do that as our tag. Ithink that's a good tag. So
thank you for joining us, and wewill see you next time. Get some
more.
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