February 6, 2025 • 51 mins
In this powerful follow-up to our Purposeful Parrotfish episode, we continue exploring the profound impact of purpose—this time with Emiliya Zhivotovskaya, MAPP, CEO of The Flourishing Center and a leader in positive psychology. Emiliya shares her deeply personal journey, shaped by resilience, joy, and loss, and how she has dedicated her life to helping individuals and organizations flourish.
From her childhood inspiration to "heal the world" to founding a center that empowers others with science-backed well-being strategies, Emiliya’s story is one of perseverance, reframing, and finding meaning even in difficult times. She dives into how we can all rewrite our personal narratives, integrate mind-body well-being, and cultivate resilience through storytelling, mindfulness, and education.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome back to Resilience Gone Wild. I am
here with my
always awesome
Kai Sorensen, my producer who makes everything sound
amazing.
So, Kai, what's up? How are you? A
little cold if you can't tell if you're
watching. I'm in my Ninja Turtle hoodie,
and,
the the child is getting ready for dinner
(00:26):
upstairs. So, if you hear the scampers of
a one and a half year old, don't
worry. That that's it's totally normal.
But, yeah. I'm really excited for today. We're
coming off of Parrotfish, which was one of
the first episodes you and I recorded together.
And, I just I had to throw in
there. I had so much fun,
doing research on getting the sounds of the
parrot fish. So if you go back and
listen to that episode, I did a lot
of digging to find an ethical
(00:47):
free version of the parrot fish, the sound
of the parrot fish,
eating that coral. It was really fun to
reearth this,
interview with Amelia.
She oh, here's Elroy speaking animals.
Let's say hi, Elroy. Hi, Elroy.
It was so much fun reearthing that episode
because it was one of our first we
recorded back in August. And I know she's
(01:08):
been such a had a profound impact on
your life and your work. And, you know,
I think the and the the stories she'll
tell us, and how she
created her own story out of out of
trauma,
was really inspiring. So I guess, yeah, give
us a little bit of your experience with
her and how you know her and Yeah.
Yeah. We can't we can't wait to get
to the interview. Yeah. Amelia is one of
(01:30):
my greatest mentors in my life, and I
met her.
I actually signed up to
take her
certification in positive psychology
and it was supposed to start like 03/10/2020,
if anybody remembers
what was happening that week.
And we were supposed to be meeting in
(01:50):
person in New York and the world shut
down
and, we went online
globally. And,
because of a couple of weird flukes,
I ended up having Amelia as my teacher
online
with this amazing group of of humans.
And, she went through a really hard time
that week. That those couple of weeks, her
dad actually passed away, one of the early,
(02:13):
deaths from COVID. Mhmm. And she brought us
through that and she,
just wanted,
she she had this
an
additional sense of purpose that aligned with all
that she does,
in in helping people get through COVID. So
she started this
every day.
She went online
and brought
(02:34):
hundreds of many, many hundreds, I think maybe
thousands of us together
Mhmm. To do joyful resilience activities. And Wow.
It was incredible. It went on for months
and months, and it brought her, you know,
a sense of comfort
that she was living her purpose and,
and helping others get through this really hard
time that she was really having a hard
(02:55):
time with. And Emilia, you know, comes to
this work
with a combination between just an internal passion
for helping people
and for,
helping people thrive
and some unbelievably
difficult
life experiences
of,
just great challenges,
family challenges, personal challenges
(03:16):
that just continue. And she
just inspires us all to be able to
hit those bumps in the road and come
back,
stronger and stronger and,
you know,
not toxic positivity,
not pretending, just real life
super resilience. And that's a lot of what
she teaches. So Yeah. And, you know, I
(03:37):
think I am.
Yeah. Right. And, you know, here I am
kind of learning it secondhand, right, or maybe
thirdhand, I guess.
And I I think so much of what
you're talking about is how we find purpose
in the hard points in life. So whether
it be, I don't know, advocacy
or
or helping others, like, I guess, where do
you fall along that spectrum? Are you someone
(03:57):
who's out there
blazing the trails? Are you like what's what's
the fish metaphor? Helping people fish to Teach
people to fish. Teach fishing for them. Yeah.
Yeah. Where where do you fall? Yeah. It's
a really important,
important
moment for me when I
spent decades
working in advocacy work,
leading
(04:17):
philanthropic organizations
to try to,
support
people who are having who are having trouble.
And often it was about
giving them fish,
and just getting them through the short term.
And I during during a first couple of
years with Amelia,
we we,
came across this sparketype, which was a friend
(04:39):
of hers who had developed the methodology. It's
an assessment, positive psychology assessment, and it's about
identifying what lights you up and what sucks
the life out of you. And we really
work a lot on energy and energy management,
common energy, shared energy, personal energy,
in positive psychology. And
the sparketype assessment
(05:01):
gave me
this this understanding of myself that what lit
me up
was to illuminate others, and I needed to
learn to help me do that. And what
sucked me dry was advocacy.
And it was this incredible life changing moment
when I figured that out and was in
in conversation with a bunch of other positive
psychologists about it. And I walked away from
(05:23):
all the advocacy,
walked away from all the organizations that I
was working with and for, and I
became a teacher and
a podcaster
and a blogger and,
you know, all the things that I love
to an author and all the things that
I love to do that light me up
so much more than they did. I uncovered
my purpose
and it changed everything. So to that end,
(05:45):
you know Mhmm. There's all these great tools
that help that help us Right. To uncover
what what
really can drive us in life and make
it make it ease so much so exciting
to get up in the morning, not just
easier, but, like like,
boundless energy
to jump out of bed in the morning
because you have a sense of purpose. Yeah.
(06:07):
And it can be individual purpose because it
might just be that you love your family.
Yeah. You just will do anything for your
family and you wanna get up and bake
bread. Like, that honestly
is a beautiful sense of purpose or it
could be
a larger collective purpose you could have. Today
is
the second anniversary
of the train derailment
in East Palestine, Ohio.
(06:28):
Right. Wow. That was two years ago. Yeah.
Time passes. Right? And, you know, they've had
a really difficult time getting
cleanup to happen and getting the find the
funding that they needed and to bring people
together
to, you know, in a world of so
much catastrophe
to be important enough to be recognized. Right.
Yeah.
And they, as a collective group, have
(06:51):
this this purpose that they never expected and
never wanted to find, but they become environmental
advocates as Right. You know, that are gonna
help in in other times, not just their
own. So Mhmm. Purpose is about, you know,
having, you know, wanting to get up in
the morning and do something that changes and
makes you thrive and makes the world better
as well. Yeah. That's so beautifully put. And,
(07:13):
you know, you're talking about getting out of
bed in the morning, you know, it's with
with our one and a half year old,
you know, you kinda have to.
But to that end Yeah. I think quickly
into, you know,
Miles' life and kind of being a parent
and learning those ropes, and
it really it wasn't that hard to get
up. Right? Because that purpose is there because
something needs you. Right? So whereas, you know,
(07:34):
before these times,
7AM, I'd be I'd be pretty grumpy about
it. Even unlimited sleep, like, we did not
sleep well last night. But, you know, I
was up at seven and there's a smiling
baby in a crib. You're like, oh,
purpose. Right? It's like centering. It's it's grounding.
And so,
well, before we keep going on too much
further, I I definitely wanna read another review
(07:54):
before we get to the
to the, and this came in, five stars,
just so you know.
Gigi Zeller, you know, is it Gigi? I
do know Gigi Zeller. You do know Gigi
Zeller. Spread and we had this awesome lunch
the other day and saw an art festival.
Love Gigi. Yes. So I have known Jessica
for many years and so proud of the
person she has become as an incredible teacher
and coach. She brings the vibrancy and excitement
(08:16):
of many sea creatures into the mix, applying
their habits to our everyday lives. Her podcasts
are very inspiring. I'm honored to call her
my friend. How about that? Oh, I love
feel the same way, Gigi. Shout out to
Gigi. Alright. We'll let Gigi know we shouted
her out on the podcast. Totally.
Alright. Should we get to the interview? Yeah.
That'd be great. Alright, everybody. Enjoy. Enjoy.
(08:38):
Hi.
Hello.
Yay.
My god. I have been telling And I
get to see you next week. I know.
I'm so excited. That. And I'm wearing my
shirt. You're wearing your resilient shirt. Resilience shirt.
And I'm wearing my, I think this is
what a parrot fish looks like shirt. So
she's clearly listen. Thank you for listening to
the episode. You do look like a parrot
fish. You're awesome. I mean, like, I don't
(08:59):
know if this is what a parrot fish
should look like. So welcome to Amelia Zivotovskaya,
and I am so thrilled to have Amelia
here with me. Thank you, Jessica. I'm so
excited for you and so excited for all
that you've created over the past few years,
and this is just the next level. And
I'm so thrilled and honored to be here
with you.
(09:20):
Thank you, Emilia. So so given that I
give you such enormous credit validly
for
moving me to
uncovering my purpose and and setting me forth
on this journey of what I think is
gonna be, like the chapter of life that
takes me forward and leaves my legacy and
and all that.
(09:42):
Share who you are, like, share where your
deep, deep purpose
and passion for life and for people,
has come from, if you don't mind.
Wow. That question. I mean, I'd like to
give thanks to my to my mother who's
whom I came through. I mean, that's definitely
where where it came from.
But it's such an interesting question because I
(10:04):
think that as we even just put this
under the umbrella of, like, how do people
figure out their purpose in life or understand
that they have a purpose, not to
not to mention
being aware that they are on purpose.
I think in some ways, I feel incredibly
blessed because I feel like I was born
with a pretty strong sense of that. Like,
(10:26):
even in the sense that I can I
have, so I was born in Kyiv, Ukraine,
and my family immigrated to America when I
was five,
escaping the fall
of communism?
And the,
I was born '90 miles from Chernobyl, and
Ukraine was is a very difficult place to
live now, and it was also a very
difficult place to live back then. And the
(10:47):
very few memories I have of childhood, I
have some pretty funny communism
memories as I think about them because I
just remember, like, my mom putting me online
to stand even though I was, like, four
years old. It's like, stand here and wait
for the breadline and, like, stand here and
wait for the milkline. So of those, like,
weird communist memories, I do remember
little I I remember being little, little Amelia
(11:09):
in, like, a a stroller,
and people would just be like, oh, look.
You're so cute. And then they would say,
what do you wanna be when you grow
up? And I remember that even in, like,
stroller age, I would just sort of go,
which in Russian means a teacher.
And and so and then they'd ask me,
like, why do I wanna be a teacher?
(11:29):
I just assumed, well, my mommy's a teacher,
so I wanna be like my mommy.
But then as I came to step into
this understanding of, like, who am I? And
one of the ways in positive psychology that
we describe purpose is we describe it, the
way that my my friend and, dear colleague,
Karen Rokheim, describes it as the active way
(11:49):
you uniquely impact the world. And for me,
teaching and spreading is like that is my
purpose in life, delighting people,
bringing out the best of them, helping them
know that
they are powerful beyond measure, and helping them
navigate the ins and outs of their their
life so that they can navigate life with
greater mastery. That's my purpose. That's why I'm
(12:11):
here. But I don't think I really understood
more of that until I went through my
own hero's journey as all of us do.
And I think that
that that core aspect of like all human
beings are wired with this this gift of
being of a yearning for a calling or
for a quest or a journey to go
(12:31):
on.
And so that understanding that I would be
here to help and to be of service
was kind of always present. I can then
fast forward to being in elementary school and,
Michael Jackson's, like, heal the world, make it
a better place. I I'm totally dating myself,
but, like,
we sang that song in chorus, and I
was the kid who could not carry a
(12:52):
tune for the life of me. But I
was the most passionate
singer of that song, third row, big
big chubby cheeks and big bow in my
hair. And and I was like, that song
was like, yes. Like, heal the world. Like,
make it a better place for future generations.
Like, that that I I just I got
(13:13):
it. Like, that was what it was about.
And then I remember at some point, someone
somewhere in school said, well, that's not cool
or that's not that's cheesy or, like, how
Pollyanna of you or whatever that that messaging
was.
And I just sort of learned, like, oh,
keep it to myself.
Like, I wasn't I wasn't deterred. I wasn't
(13:34):
like, oh, okay. That's that's not what I'm
gonna be here to do in life. It
was just like, oh, be careful who you
say that to,
even as a young child.
But that that was just always something that
was just really clear for me. I was
like, if I'm not here to leave the
world somewhat better when I leave than when
I came in, then what am I doing
here?
And I had a series of challenges that
(13:56):
my family and I navigated that started from
childhood.
When I was 14, my brother passed away.
He was 24,
and he was swimming at night with his
fiancee and some friends at a,
the ocean. We lived close to Long Beach
in New York, and,
my brother was a young 24 year old
(14:16):
who had his whole world ahead of him
and just become a stockbroker,
got engaged, was gonna be married, was getting
ready to move out on his own.
And his fiancee started drowning in the ocean
when they were swimming late at night, and
my brother ran in to try to rescue
her.
And in do rescuing her, he ran in
after the other woman that was also in
(14:37):
a similar position,
and they drowned together. They probably drowned each
other. And so that was the first sort
of real
massive
challenge and adversity that I and my family
had to navigate. And I think the how
did I get here was through
the understanding
that
it takes a village. And as a child,
(14:59):
that that loss in my family,
in one way, put me very deeply on
a spiritual path because I feel like I
had so much spiritual intervention that connected me
with this idea that
I don't know what I don't know what
happens when people die. I we have no
guarantee. And some people would say things like,
you know, your brother's still with you or
everything happens for a reason. Just like all
(15:20):
of this storytelling that I saw, and it
was like, I somehow intuitively understood that
I have no way of understanding why this
happened,
but I'm gonna tell myself a story and
I'm gonna stick to it. And so I
just kind of, like, committed to a story.
I was like, you know, my brother was
young,
but he lived his life full out. And
I don't know why this happened, but I'm
(15:42):
going to use this to be a better
person somehow.
And so I use that idea of reframing,
that I came to later learn as a
key tool for resilience. I learned this idea
of just being connected to this possibility that
there is something greater than ourselves in life,
and that put me onto a very spiritual
path and a spiritual quest of of curiosity.
(16:05):
And then many other challenges that came over
the course of many years after that. My
mom got diagnosed with ovarian cancer,
something we battled for ten years together, a
very challenging,
powerful, yet very painful journey for her.
My mom passed when I was 27.
(16:25):
My dad passed when I was 35. He
died of COVID.
And so there's this interesting sort of life
that I live that I feel like I've
I've been privy to, and I used to
call it my my my my polarized life
because even with all of these challenges, I
also had so many
powerful highs in my life where
I while while my brother passed and it
(16:46):
was such a difficult time, I also had
this blessing of becoming a professional kids party
entertainer,
a career that I started at 14 and
lasted until I was 26.
And over the course of that time, I
got to get paid a lot of really
good money to have fun. Like, it was
crazy, and I was traveling all over and
got to be developed in this very crucial
(17:08):
stage of my life to be able to
create experiences for people and bring people happiness
and joy and be a part of their
most important life events, like their bar mitzvahs
and their weddings and their sweet sixteens and
their corporate parties. And so it was like,
wow, this contrast of this, like, incredible high
and this really deep low
and learning how to navigate those. And even
(17:29):
just right now, I'll I'll be vulnerable in
this podcast. I think this is the first
time I'm sharing this in such a public
forum. But
just a couple of days ago on August
10, I married the love of my life
and had the most incredible
day of my life.
And we're just we're still in that, like,
happy honeymoon bliss,
(17:50):
kind of experience.
And then a week later, I experienced what
I would say was the hardest, most
difficult
day of my life a week later, which
as, I miscarried and wound up in wound
up in the hospital for an emergency D
and C
for something that I
had thought I had experienced a lot of
pain. And I've had knee surgeries, and I've
(18:12):
had emotional pain of people that have been
lost. And I was like, I never knew
a pain like this was even fathomable in
the human body. And it was just lasted
the day, and I'm fine now. But I
literally had the thought, like, I'd rather be
dead right now than feeling what I'm feeling.
And I was like, the contrast, like, best
day of my life, a week later, the
(18:33):
hardest day of my life. And that's life.
That's life. Right? And so
I feel like that that
life
just you just there's, like, that saying goes
where, like, the best you could you can't
control the tide, but you can learn how
to surf.
And I feel like that's been my life
is learning how to surf
and then recognizing that there's actually we live
(18:55):
in this really incredible abundant time where there
are people whose life and their purpose has
been dedicated to researching
how
to help people serve better.
And so I've gotten to learn the science
and learn from the researchers and read the
studies and conduct experiments myself and then also
(19:15):
just have to put this stuff into practice
with my own life. It's just what when
you when you love what you do, you
just chip away and you just keep doing
it. You know? So that's me in a
nutshell, I think. That's beautiful. Thank you so
much for sharing
the
really hard stuff and the really beautiful stuff,
and and I'm I'm so sorry that
(19:36):
I'm so happy for you for the joy
of having met the love of your life,
and I was
so, so blessed to have spent
five days with the love of your life
recently at a retreat that Did he turn
to you on? The love of your life
too because everybody was so easy to love.
My god. He's incredible.
Incredible.
The most beautiful person. Second most one of
(19:57):
the most beautiful people in the world. And
then to have such a moment of pain
and sadness that,
you know, that the whole thing of, like,
you know, who deserves
happiness versus unhappiness and those horrible lines about,
you know, people who suffer, they deserve to
suffer and people who are good, you know,
it's you throw it out the window and
(20:18):
you're like, it has nothing to do with
who you are. Like, we we go through
these these horrible bumps in the roads and
these horrible highs
and you're the gift of resilience to teach
people. You have taught tens of like tens
of thousands, I think at this point, right?
Like people like me who are then teaching
tens of thousands each, right? Like it's just
(20:40):
the gift that you've brought forth
to take
whatever life you're given
and, you know, deal with the hard stuff,
grow from it and
just thrive in the good stuff
because
you get to do this once. We don't
know what's next, as you said. Right? So,
(21:01):
like, make make a difference in the world
and make it
leave it better than you than you arrived
at. And, you know, those those
pieces of wisdom are just what
we need here. So, I mean and they're
all connected to purpose. Right?
So one of the other things that you
said that really hit me was,
(21:22):
and when Phil and I were talking about
it earlier,
who's on a podcast about the alligators and
breathing,
about the story in your head and you
chose
like, that story that you shared about
your
decision to choose a story,
knowing the way your brain works. And you
certainly do know that
that we put pieces together and we choose
(21:44):
what pieces to put together in a story
and that you made the decision to say
this is the story that will move me
forward in life,
not keep me stuck.
And
I I just think that's just one of
the most important
tools in our resilience toolbox
to, like, understand where the story comes from
and that you get to choose it. I
don't do you wanna talk more about that?
(22:05):
Yeah. Absolutely.
It is the foundation of what we call
cognitive behavioral therapy,
meaning a cognitive behavioral therapist helps people understands
how their understand how their cognitions
impact their behavior
so that you, you know, we can use
the example of you have two people witness
an accident, two people watch the same thing
(22:25):
happen, and we'll have very different stories of
of what they see. And so for me,
the
intuitive decision for that that call to action,
came just because of the fact that I
watched a lot of television, to be honest.
You know, there wasn't while I was going
to see the school psychologist and other things,
like, no one no one said, Amelia,
(22:47):
your capacity to flourish in the world is
going to be based on your storytelling of
this particular moment.
But I joke that the way that I
learned to speak English because, you know, nobody
taught me how to speak English. We came
to this country and my parents had to
go to work. And so I sat there
in front of the TV and
I used, like, Looney Tunes and commercials and
all sorts of other things. And next thing
you know, I'm speaking English. So, you know,
(23:09):
even though I don't watch a lick of
television now, it was a big influence. And
so, honestly, the only thing I could say
to myself was like, okay. Of all the
movies you've ever seen,
this is that point in the narrative. This
is the point in the the movie or
the show where the person has to make
a choice. And and I just remember I
can remember where I was. I was in
my bedroom. I had a picture of my
(23:29):
brother up in the room. I had I
I had actually moved into his room because
he was the big brother. He had the
big room. I had the tiny room.
Then my parents were like, well, you can
take his room now. And that was weird
because I was, like, happy I had a
bigger room, but sad I didn't have a
brother, you know, so I'm just going through
this. And and so I just I was
like, I'm then this is the this is
(23:50):
this point. Like, I have this turning point,
and and this is the decision I'm gonna
make. But then, of course, later on, as
I came to study positive psychology,
this is the foundation of everything from post
traumatic growth. So we hear a lot about
post traumatic stress disorder. And and I think
post traumatic stress disorder is part story, but
it's also part physiological.
(24:10):
Whereas post traumatic growth is really story based,
and then your body catches up. And so
there's a lot to what happens when people
go through post through traumatic events and they
are disabled or dysfunctioning
or or stuck or suffering still.
And then we know that there's this whole
field of resilience and what helps people
not be stuck and actually get back to
(24:32):
where they were before. And then there's this
field of how people
grow as a result of trauma. And it
a lot of the interventions or exercises that
we use to help people
work that has to do with storytelling.
There's a really powerful TED talk by Amy
Purdy,
who is an an incredible
resilient woman with this profound story of loss
(24:54):
and creation.
And she has a line that says, if
your life were a book and you were
the author,
how would you want this story to go?
We can't rewrite.
We can't retell stories from the lens of
the past, although we can still tweak the
story. We can't change what's happened, but we
can tweak the story for greater forgiveness and
(25:14):
greater acceptance.
But the storytelling aspect is the foundation and
recognizing
that even when we have no way of
telling if the story is true or not,
the question is, does the story serve you
and serve us? And I've just had so
many
validation moments of that when when my brother
passed that, of course, I can look back
on and understand now. But the biggest one
(25:36):
was the story of of blame,
of whose fault was it. You know? And
and I just I realized very quickly that
we all had
everyone that was involved in this had a
different version of the story of why it
happened.
My version of the story initially was this
is my fault. Had I not begged my
parents to go away that weekend, my brother
would still be alive.
(25:57):
His fiancee, Marina, who I still get to
be in contact with her and her husband
came to my wedding. It's just so beautiful
to still have that beautiful connection in our
life.
You know, hers was if I didn't if
I would didn't go in the water, he'd
still be alive right now.
My father took on the narrative. Had I
not moved my family to this country, it
was my decision for us to move to
(26:17):
America.
My son would be alive right now. And
my mom's is the most painful, which was,
had I not raised such a brave son,
he'd still be alive right now and everyone
else in between. There was so many stories,
and I was just like, and here I
am just watching the whole thing going, how
fascinating.
And and
that
(26:37):
even before I knew the light, how fascinating
was still thinking this is so interesting.
And and what we know from a neuroscientific
perspective is that human beings
are
wired for storytelling.
All of these wonderful
animals that you are bringing us into connection
with in your podcast,
Jessica, they're incredible.
However, they they lack story
(26:59):
Yeah. Which is great. It's like we get
to actually observe
nature
storyless.
We think they lack story at this point.
We don't even know because we're We don't
know. Discovering Yeah. Unbelievable things that animal species
can do. Yeah. They they like, whether or
not they have they have a sense of
storytelling
about who they are and what their purpose
is, you know, so that they just they
(27:20):
just are. They just exist. But this ability
to
have a story about what has happened before
and to tell a story about what's gonna
happen in the future, up until now, we
scientists,
think that that capacity comes from a prefrontal
cortex
and,
therefore, a narrative telling brain, a wiring for
stories.
And so it's like we're always telling stories.
(27:42):
The question is is whether or not the
story you're telling
serves you or doesn't, but it is the
name the name of the game from when
you are born to when we take our
last breath here.
It's so interesting. What I'm what's coming up
for me is the the goldfish and the
ten second memory that, like, the goldfish only
has ten seconds of the story, and then
(28:03):
it's gone. And there's so many, you know,
pros and cons to the human capacity
to
live as a storyteller
and the lack of agency
that
so many people have
where stories
are not, they're not in control of their
story because they don't know they can be.
(28:25):
So it takes them down a path of
a story that is not serving them, as
you said, and then
the opportunity
to learn the kind of things that you're
teaching and that you're teaching us to teach
where you can own your story and define
your story and
take all the dark stuff that happens and
make meaning out of it and
(28:45):
create your life
in a positive rippling positive way instead, that
human capacity
is only great if you know how to
use it.
Otherwise, it's really difficult. Like, it creates all
that fear and all that darkness and all
that
separation that we have these days, like so
yeah.
(29:06):
Going to the goldfish, it's like telling a
goldfish what's water
because this thing and that comes from so
many different parables as to what it means
that this is water.
But the the idea that that
superpower,
that
capacity that we all come in with, yet
we don't even realize we have a choice.
(29:29):
It's so
present. It's such a part of the human
condition that we don't even realize it. It
would be like asking a fish what is
water.
By the way, we will post in the
show notes the video of
the the brilliant, this is water by, and
I'm drawing a total blank which is who
wrote it.
David Foster Wallace. Thank you. David Foster Wallace.
(29:50):
Yes.
It's it's an incredible metaphor.
So to that end where I feel like
we're going to a place where, you know,
as a child,
the more you can learn about
the control you have over your story and
and the options you have for how you
live your life, the better. And you've created
(30:10):
this incredible
path to
positive education
and starting this whole
journey of
of taking ownership of your life and your
story
at, you know, the earliest ages possible through
teachers,
your his you know, your love teaching.
Can you talk a little bit about,
you know, the the power of starting young
(30:32):
and
what you've done with positive this whole positive
education path?
Yeah.
And,
and and it's like we can start young,
but the work is never done. So,
yeah, we've built a number of different programs.
I've built a number of different programs and
access points for people to
engage with positive psychology,
particularly engage with it themselves as a profession.
(30:56):
So for people who work in education or
parents of children, we run a certification
program called the PEC program or the positive
education certificate,
where we look at teaching positive psychology
and give quipping teachers with the tools to
teach these skills to children.
And, developmentally, children will be in different stages
(31:16):
of what they're capable of starting to explore.
So with little, little ones, you're not gonna
be talking to them about story the stories
they're telling themselves because developmentally,
they're not quite actually making those stories just
yet, but we can work on self regulation
and emotional regulation
and mindfulness and presence and start teaching them
(31:37):
about gratitude
and at a start at a young age,
start recognizing the character strengths that children are
already bringing in. And then as they get
older, and we actually know developmentally
when some of those hiccup points start for
children,
where they start to gain a sense of
self consciousness, and they go from being, like,
very happy kids just so happy with all
(31:59):
the things to all of a sudden downing
themselves and comparing themselves. And they start creating
narratives, and they start getting more sophisticated
stories about how the world works. And this
self consciousness
and the separation from parents and from others,
can lead to a different set of skills
that we need to teach them, and a
lot of these skills are not taught in
(32:20):
school.
So what I've been doing is working with
our pet program to
help schools adapt curriculum that goes beyond just
social and emotional learning, but also goes into
the actual nitty gritty skills of resilience and
positive psychology
and how we can train teachers
to learn this first for themselves. Teachers need
this because we know that the success of
(32:42):
a child and school is also strongly influenced
by the resilience and the well-being of the
teachers themselves and their parents, of course.
So we have curriculum for that, and then
we run our longest running program, our certificate
in applied positive psychology program. It's called the
CAP program, which it was your, I think,
entry point into us, Jessica.
(33:02):
And so the CAP program is our deep
dive, and it's for anybody that wants
the equivalent of a master's degree, but without
the the
master's thesis and without the reading the journal
articles and read writing journal journal articles. It's
a kind of accelerated path of how you're
taught. And over the course of nine months,
we give people a deep dive into
(33:23):
just about everything that science has said are
the pathways for resilience and well-being.
And so that is, you know, people bringing
that into their own life. We also have
programs where we train people in how to
be life coaches, how to be resilience trainers,
how to be
consultants,
how to give workshops,
give courses. We have fully made for you
(33:44):
programs that you can plug and play. And
so that's a little bit of what we
do, but a lot of it has to
do with the starting with yourself. And so
the flourishing center has everything from these deep
dive certification programs all the way down to
smaller programs that,
I we call Lyft.
And, we've gone through ebbs and flows from
the pandemic of this program, and how many
(34:06):
classes we run. But right now, I'm running
a daily class every Wednesday at 11AM,
which is the personal application of this where
I've wanted to, for years, build out a
dojo or, like, a place where people can
go to practice positive psychology every day just
the same way you would go to the
gym and take a workout class or a
yoga studio or,
(34:28):
big orange theory fan.
So we even have a program called Lyft
that for not our full certification
programs, but for $10 a class,
people can come in and they can just
practice positive psychology every day because the stuff
is about habit change and it's about reframing
and rewiring yourself. And so those are some
(34:48):
of the different things that we do.
And one of the important it's amazing. I've
taken many of the programs I've taught,
taught left and Taught left.
Which was a highlight of of my life.
But one of the most important lessons here,
I think that we need to really
share is that it is not like an
over, you know, you don't just like learn
(35:08):
a resilience tool and then become resilient in
that way. You, you know,
just for example, change the story in your
head. I mean, it's a lifetime practice.
I'm sure, you know, you still
have, you know, have to switch the story
to pause and switch a story. It doesn't
automatically
just just become the right the positive story
(35:29):
just because you've been practicing it for twenty
years or thirty years.
It takes
each every everything
you would learn in Lyft and in cap
and in PAC, all of them
are lifelong practices. And the community that you
create
around
the thousands of us that are all connected
and are all talking about this and sharing
(35:50):
this is what makes the difference, is what
what makes the ripples happen.
And to the,
to the aspect of teaching young children and
the
their capacity
to process,
you know, the language and the concepts around,
you know, storytelling or whatever it is that
they're not ready for. That's one of the
things I love about this use of metaphor
(36:12):
and animals and the idea of giving them,
you know, the the parrot fish purpose. I
mean, Amelia is the best. Like, she added
the v to
the vitality
to the positive psychology model that was that
has been, you know, that is existent in
in our world of science.
And,
she is dressed like a parrot fish because
(36:34):
there's a metaphor
that we need
to that we will benefit from being able
to see
the parrotfish when we think about purpose. It's
chewing of the sand that you'll you know,
whoever's listened or hasn't listened to the episode
before this, that that was the preview to
this, you know, the parrot fish purpose
is
(36:54):
so powerful and it gets them up every
morning out of their sleep bubble, which you'll
hear about as well in another episode,
and they spend their day doing something to
make the world better
to clean out and help
the coral reef to grow and to thrive
and then to help the animals below them
have sand to live in and us to
(37:14):
play in and all that. So,
you know,
the there's language, there's concepts, there's metaphor. All
of this is so much part of how
our brain works best,
and focusing on it is a great thing.
You could just talk a bit about how
you added that layer
of
of of what what of pathophysiology
(37:35):
that really matters.
Yeah. When I came into positive psychology,
the the models that existed for well-being was
we're we're,
looking at what are the pathways or what
are the approaches
that
people would take if they wanted to become
happier and they wanted to become healthier and
(37:57):
to live more flourishing lives. And so when
I first started, the model that the founder
of the field, Martin Seligman, had gone by
that came out of research was called the
PEM model,
which was the importance of positive emotions,
engagement, and meaning.
And so we identified that how do people
become authentically happier? They could increase their frequency
(38:19):
of positive emotions while
decreasing the frequency or length of their negative
emotions, not getting rid of them, but decreasing
them some, becoming more engaged or connected to
their life and their world,
which is like being more mindful, being more
present, using your strengths.
And then this parrot fish aspect of having
purpose, which goes under the meaning, having a
(38:40):
meaningful life, a reason for being,
feeling like your life makes sense to you,
that you are able to be of contribution.
And for for many years of studying positive
psychology,
that was sort of the model. And then
Martin Seligman added to the model from new
additional research and added relationships
(39:00):
as an essential pathway to well-being and also
a sense of accomplishment and achievement to to
well-being.
And while I was,
a student and studying positive psychology for my
master's degree,
I also became a certified yoga teacher and
had been on my own personal well-being
journey,
both with my own relationship to my body
(39:22):
and health and wellness, but also with my
mom getting sick. So when my mom got
diagnosed with ovarian cancer, I was still in
high school, and I would go with my
mom to all of these doctor's appointments. And
she had multiple surgeries and hysterectomies
and
hernia surgeries. And she had her colon removed,
and then her her bladder removed. Like, she
was
(39:42):
incredible, the things that my mother had gone
through. And when she got cancer, I was
also trying my best to find all the
ways that we could support her. And so
I was looking at nutritional medicine, and I
was looking at stress reduction. I was looking
at nature exposure
and physical activity and even laughter.
And that approach that now then is the
(40:04):
foundation of my PhD work, which is in
mind body medicine,
are all the things that are considered complementary
and alternative medicine. And I found that there
is this separation between what was happening in
positive psychology to everything else that was bodily
oriented.
And I felt like everything I was learning
in
my positive psychology training and yoga training, I
(40:24):
was learning through the body. And then it's
like yoga does for the body what positive
psychology does for the mind, but then in
further training, understanding that you can't separate out
mind and body. And in fact, now certain
researchers use them as one word, mind body,
because it's not mind and body. They're they're
so intimately connected. They are just one. And
so when I was,
(40:45):
when I heard that Marty Seligman was, open
to changing his model, he went from PEM
to PERMA. I was like, oh, this is
my chance. And I said, Marty, if I
can give you a research based argument for
why vitality is a missing part of the
equation,
would you be open to changing your model?
And, he wrote back to me very quickly
as Marty is known for, but he wrote
(41:05):
writes back with just one word. He's like,
no.
And I was like, okay.
But sort of like, you know, people telling
me, like, how naive of me to wanna
make the world a better place. It was
just like, okay, I went down the wrong
direction for that. And and I was like,
but I know I know that this is
this is the truth is that we can't
separate out flourishing
(41:27):
from this aspect of well-being of the body
and that sometimes what people think about as,
oh, well, why do we wanna spend time
in nature? Because it increases our positive emotions,
or why do we exercise? Because it'll give
us a sense of achievement. That's sort of,
I think, what Marty's argument was was that
he saw, well, no. No. No. This engagement
of with vitality
(41:47):
is the thing that supports these other pathways.
Whereas I felt, and now research supports, and
a decade later, he came back to me
and he said, Emilia, you were right. Vitality
does belong in the model, but he still
sort of goes as, like, some people go
perma plus, perma plus health. And I'm like,
just call it vitality people.
But all of the things that we look
at is this physical approach. It's like
(42:09):
there's the same way that the parrot fish
is not
we don't we don't know why the parrot
fish wakes up and decides to do what
it's doing.
It it probably does it because it is
what its body tells it to do.
And so when we have this aspect of
well-being and we're connected to our body, it's
like it's like I don't just exercise. I
don't just move because I know it's good
(42:31):
for me. It's what my body knows to
do. And that there's this wisdom to nature,
and there's this wisdom to our body that
we are extensions of. And so adding vitality
to the model and making sure that all
of the students who get trained in in
positive psychology through the Flourishing Center
are not just taught
the psyche
separated from the body. We teach sleep and
(42:53):
movement and food and sensuality
and sexuality
and nature and sunlight and breath
and,
even how we hold our body in space.
I'm actually feeling a bit embarrassed that you,
Jessica, are standing, and I'm usually the advocate
for standing station. Stand. I know. And I
thought about it. I was like, oh, but
if I if I I'm also I'm heading
(43:15):
out in a couple of minutes and I'm
leaving for a couple of days, so I
broke down my standing station. I do have
an ergonomic setup, though, of the separation of
my keyboard from my computer.
But, yes, ergonomics, how we hold our body
in space. These are things we do
not for like, they are they are means
within themselves and that they are,
that we do them for their own sake.
(43:35):
And so I'm very passionate
about putting vitality onto the map and helping
people
see the intricate
connection between the two and access the wisdom
of the body. Like, even right now, I'm
working on that myself where I know that
with this recent miscarriage that I had
cognitively,
rationally, emotionally, I felt like I was in
(43:56):
a really good place. I was like, okay.
You know, I got I got a free
boob job for my wedding dress because the
hormones changed my body very quickly. And I
was like, Wow, this wedding dress actually looks
even better.
And I got to I saw the lessons
in it and the blessing in it, and
I was like, It's not the right timing.
The body knows,
(44:16):
you know, we know we can get pregnant.
We'll get pregnant again. Like, I felt like
I was cognitively in a really good place,
but now I'm also sitting with but there's
a physical
grief that my body has gone through
and and a physical experience, and I don't
wanna
I don't wanna circumvent that. I don't wanna
over I I don't wanna spiritually bypass that.
(44:37):
And so for me, I've like, the respect
for my body in this process, and I've
had amazing
people in my life that I turn to
as somatic coaches that help me with that.
I use dance. I use movement or just
this awareness of my body. Like, you know,
rationally, I think I'm fine. But the other
day, I'm like, someone's like, oh, how are
you feeling? And I said, oh, you know,
we lost the baby. And I felt a
(44:58):
grief come over my body
in that moment, and it's bodily. It is
not rational. It's not in my mind. I
really I'm okay,
but I respect that. Hey. My body
needs to catch up to that process. And
so I think a lot of what I'm
what my passion is around this vitality piece
is just
bringing people back into this home. Your body
(45:19):
is the your home
for you, however you wanna define who you
are,
and taking good care of it. It's the
the is the ultimate health care that we
can depend on
and listening to it and being in in
respectful
relationship with it. And that's something that I
had to come to on my on through
many, many, many, many winding roads because I
(45:43):
you know, that wasn't taught to me, and
that wasn't modeled to me. And I had
to come into right relationship with my body
and then constantly remembering to do so.
Sleeping enough, you know, not not trying to
be over productive and sacrificing
my body's needs.
And it reminds me of because nature metaphors
just pop up.
(46:03):
You know, you you teach a lot about
the different places in your body that have
brains,
you know, like you're to listen to your
body doesn't mean listening to your head.
It means listening to your whole body and
scanning and paying attention to different aspects of
your body.
And the octopus, for example, has
(46:25):
brains on all of its arms, like its
brain isn't just in one place and, you
know, to recognize that our bodies have
wisdom and
information and messages
from every different part of our body and
to
really listen
and pay attention is so beneficial.
(46:46):
Right? Like, look at all the people who
have aches and pains and just keep living
through them and thinking they're gonna work through
them, but aren't actually working through them. They'll
get, you know, they'll they'll get over them.
I'll I can I can work through it,
but you have to do the work? You
have to do the listening.
Yeah,
that's amazing. So words of last have taken
a lot of your time words of,
(47:07):
wisdom around
whatever's come up for you here that our
listeners will I mean, there's been so many,
but whatever's coming up, it's it's just bursting
from
from you.
Gosh. So much.
But, yeah, I guess maybe to to
go to where we just closed around this,
(47:29):
like,
listening to yourself, like,
being able to do this thing that
sometimes we overcomplicate.
Like, what does it mean to be mindful?
What does it mean to be present? What
does it mean to be
in the now? And we can sometimes overcomplicate
it, but this is called
resilience gone wild. And so rather than, like,
(47:51):
wild, wild interventions and complex things for for
resilience,
in some ways, it can just be as
simple as the the
training our capacity to just notice and be
in the present moment,
which can be as simple as tuning into
your senses. So what do I hear? What
do I see? What do I smell? What
do I taste? What do I touch? What's
(48:12):
happening right here, right now? And just leading
with that curiosity.
And it is a way of us being
more resilient because we can take life one
step at a time, and we can be
here
now even when it's I'm here now planning
for what time I need to leave and
what I need to grab,
but it is it is that that very
(48:32):
basic process, and it's a process that can
help you tune into your body. Like,
my shoulder is a little tight and, you
know, my neck could probably use a little
massage or,
I'm thirsty and probably need more water or
I'm tired. I need to take a I
need to take a break or, wow, this
person's really
like, this thing that happened with this person
(48:52):
is really upsetting me. Like, what do I
need right now? It's being able to catch
and notice those things. And because we have
storytelling brains and we can be in the
past and we can be in the present
moment,
we really
sorry, in the future, and we really have
to train this present moment capacity
even if it's just for a few moments
here and there. What am I grateful for
right now? What am I noticing? What's beautiful
(49:14):
around me? And when you just do that,
you connect to nature, you connect to yourself,
you connect to others. So maybe that's just
my little
little tip.
Yeah. And I'm gonna take it further because
I know that's, you know, so much part
of of your thinking
is notice
your connection with people. Notice
(49:34):
the energy that's moving back and forth with
others in your life and others nearby and
others that you know and others that you
don't know and what energy you're putting out
there and and that you're getting back. So,
you know, use all those senses for not
just yourself, but a bigger picture of where
your life is. Yeah. Thank you, Amelia.
(49:57):
You're the greatest gift in my life. And,
I so appreciate and I'm so grateful for
this time that we had together and for
you sharing yourself
with those who are listening and those who
will listen.
And I can't wait. I get to spend
a weekend with Amelia in a couple of
weeks. So,
a joyful part of life. So we will
(50:19):
give you all the the notes and links
and all the stuff that that Amelia has
told you about and that you can use
to
boost your sense of purpose in your life.
And,
yeah. So it's all good. Good stuff. Thank
you. Thank you so much, Jessica. Keep up
the great work. Thank you.
(50:46):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai. Follow along with our
other BLI produced shows at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(51:06):
Anything else to add, Miles?
Welcome back to Resilience Gone Wild. I am
here with my
always awesome
Kai Sorensen, my producer who makes everything sound
amazing.
So, Kai, what's up? How are you? A
little cold if you can't tell if you're
watching. I'm in my Ninja Turtle hoodie,
and,
the the child is getting ready for dinner
(00:26):
upstairs. So, if you hear the scampers of
a one and a half year old, don't
worry. That that's it's totally normal.
But, yeah. I'm really excited for today. We're
coming off of Parrotfish, which was one of
the first episodes you and I recorded together.
And, I just I had to throw in
there. I had so much fun,
doing research on getting the sounds of the
parrot fish. So if you go back and
listen to that episode, I did a lot
of digging to find an ethical
(00:47):
free version of the parrot fish, the sound
of the parrot fish,
eating that coral. It was really fun to
reearth this,
interview with Amelia.
She oh, here's Elroy speaking animals.
Let's say hi, Elroy. Hi, Elroy.
It was so much fun reearthing that episode
because it was one of our first we
recorded back in August. And I know she's
(01:08):
been such a had a profound impact on
your life and your work. And, you know,
I think the and the the stories she'll
tell us, and how she
created her own story out of out of
trauma,
was really inspiring. So I guess, yeah, give
us a little bit of your experience with
her and how you know her and Yeah.
Yeah. We can't we can't wait to get
to the interview. Yeah. Amelia is one of
(01:30):
my greatest mentors in my life, and I
met her.
I actually signed up to
take her
certification in positive psychology
and it was supposed to start like 03/10/2020,
if anybody remembers
what was happening that week.
And we were supposed to be meeting in
(01:50):
person in New York and the world shut
down
and, we went online
globally. And,
because of a couple of weird flukes,
I ended up having Amelia as my teacher
online
with this amazing group of of humans.
And, she went through a really hard time
that week. That those couple of weeks, her
dad actually passed away, one of the early,
(02:13):
deaths from COVID. Mhmm. And she brought us
through that and she,
just wanted,
she she had this
an
additional sense of purpose that aligned with all
that she does,
in in helping people get through COVID. So
she started this
every day.
She went online
and brought
(02:34):
hundreds of many, many hundreds, I think maybe
thousands of us together
Mhmm. To do joyful resilience activities. And Wow.
It was incredible. It went on for months
and months, and it brought her, you know,
a sense of comfort
that she was living her purpose and,
and helping others get through this really hard
time that she was really having a hard
(02:55):
time with. And Emilia, you know, comes to
this work
with a combination between just an internal passion
for helping people
and for,
helping people thrive
and some unbelievably
difficult
life experiences
of,
just great challenges,
family challenges, personal challenges
(03:16):
that just continue. And she
just inspires us all to be able to
hit those bumps in the road and come
back,
stronger and stronger and,
you know,
not toxic positivity,
not pretending, just real life
super resilience. And that's a lot of what
she teaches. So Yeah. And, you know, I
(03:37):
think I am.
Yeah. Right. And, you know, here I am
kind of learning it secondhand, right, or maybe
thirdhand, I guess.
And I I think so much of what
you're talking about is how we find purpose
in the hard points in life. So whether
it be, I don't know, advocacy
or
or helping others, like, I guess, where do
you fall along that spectrum? Are you someone
(03:57):
who's out there
blazing the trails? Are you like what's what's
the fish metaphor? Helping people fish to Teach
people to fish. Teach fishing for them. Yeah.
Yeah. Where where do you fall? Yeah. It's
a really important,
important
moment for me when I
spent decades
working in advocacy work,
leading
(04:17):
philanthropic organizations
to try to,
support
people who are having who are having trouble.
And often it was about
giving them fish,
and just getting them through the short term.
And I during during a first couple of
years with Amelia,
we we,
came across this sparketype, which was a friend
(04:39):
of hers who had developed the methodology. It's
an assessment, positive psychology assessment, and it's about
identifying what lights you up and what sucks
the life out of you. And we really
work a lot on energy and energy management,
common energy, shared energy, personal energy,
in positive psychology. And
the sparketype assessment
(05:01):
gave me
this this understanding of myself that what lit
me up
was to illuminate others, and I needed to
learn to help me do that. And what
sucked me dry was advocacy.
And it was this incredible life changing moment
when I figured that out and was in
in conversation with a bunch of other positive
psychologists about it. And I walked away from
(05:23):
all the advocacy,
walked away from all the organizations that I
was working with and for, and I
became a teacher and
a podcaster
and a blogger and,
you know, all the things that I love
to an author and all the things that
I love to do that light me up
so much more than they did. I uncovered
my purpose
and it changed everything. So to that end,
(05:45):
you know Mhmm. There's all these great tools
that help that help us Right. To uncover
what what
really can drive us in life and make
it make it ease so much so exciting
to get up in the morning, not just
easier, but, like like,
boundless energy
to jump out of bed in the morning
because you have a sense of purpose. Yeah.
(06:07):
And it can be individual purpose because it
might just be that you love your family.
Yeah. You just will do anything for your
family and you wanna get up and bake
bread. Like, that honestly
is a beautiful sense of purpose or it
could be
a larger collective purpose you could have. Today
is
the second anniversary
of the train derailment
in East Palestine, Ohio.
(06:28):
Right. Wow. That was two years ago. Yeah.
Time passes. Right? And, you know, they've had
a really difficult time getting
cleanup to happen and getting the find the
funding that they needed and to bring people
together
to, you know, in a world of so
much catastrophe
to be important enough to be recognized. Right.
Yeah.
And they, as a collective group, have
(06:51):
this this purpose that they never expected and
never wanted to find, but they become environmental
advocates as Right. You know, that are gonna
help in in other times, not just their
own. So Mhmm. Purpose is about, you know,
having, you know, wanting to get up in
the morning and do something that changes and
makes you thrive and makes the world better
as well. Yeah. That's so beautifully put. And,
(07:13):
you know, you're talking about getting out of
bed in the morning, you know, it's with
with our one and a half year old,
you know, you kinda have to.
But to that end Yeah. I think quickly
into, you know,
Miles' life and kind of being a parent
and learning those ropes, and
it really it wasn't that hard to get
up. Right? Because that purpose is there because
something needs you. Right? So whereas, you know,
(07:34):
before these times,
7AM, I'd be I'd be pretty grumpy about
it. Even unlimited sleep, like, we did not
sleep well last night. But, you know, I
was up at seven and there's a smiling
baby in a crib. You're like, oh,
purpose. Right? It's like centering. It's it's grounding.
And so,
well, before we keep going on too much
further, I I definitely wanna read another review
(07:54):
before we get to the
to the, and this came in, five stars,
just so you know.
Gigi Zeller, you know, is it Gigi? I
do know Gigi Zeller. You do know Gigi
Zeller. Spread and we had this awesome lunch
the other day and saw an art festival.
Love Gigi. Yes. So I have known Jessica
for many years and so proud of the
person she has become as an incredible teacher
and coach. She brings the vibrancy and excitement
(08:16):
of many sea creatures into the mix, applying
their habits to our everyday lives. Her podcasts
are very inspiring. I'm honored to call her
my friend. How about that? Oh, I love
feel the same way, Gigi. Shout out to
Gigi. Alright. We'll let Gigi know we shouted
her out on the podcast. Totally.
Alright. Should we get to the interview? Yeah.
That'd be great. Alright, everybody. Enjoy. Enjoy.
(08:38):
Hi.
Hello.
Yay.
My god. I have been telling And I
get to see you next week. I know.
I'm so excited. That. And I'm wearing my
shirt. You're wearing your resilient shirt. Resilience shirt.
And I'm wearing my, I think this is
what a parrot fish looks like shirt. So
she's clearly listen. Thank you for listening to
the episode. You do look like a parrot
fish. You're awesome. I mean, like, I don't
(08:59):
know if this is what a parrot fish
should look like. So welcome to Amelia Zivotovskaya,
and I am so thrilled to have Amelia
here with me. Thank you, Jessica. I'm so
excited for you and so excited for all
that you've created over the past few years,
and this is just the next level. And
I'm so thrilled and honored to be here
with you.
(09:20):
Thank you, Emilia. So so given that I
give you such enormous credit validly
for
moving me to
uncovering my purpose and and setting me forth
on this journey of what I think is
gonna be, like the chapter of life that
takes me forward and leaves my legacy and
and all that.
(09:42):
Share who you are, like, share where your
deep, deep purpose
and passion for life and for people,
has come from, if you don't mind.
Wow. That question. I mean, I'd like to
give thanks to my to my mother who's
whom I came through. I mean, that's definitely
where where it came from.
But it's such an interesting question because I
(10:04):
think that as we even just put this
under the umbrella of, like, how do people
figure out their purpose in life or understand
that they have a purpose, not to
not to mention
being aware that they are on purpose.
I think in some ways, I feel incredibly
blessed because I feel like I was born
with a pretty strong sense of that. Like,
(10:26):
even in the sense that I can I
have, so I was born in Kyiv, Ukraine,
and my family immigrated to America when I
was five,
escaping the fall
of communism?
And the,
I was born '90 miles from Chernobyl, and
Ukraine was is a very difficult place to
live now, and it was also a very
difficult place to live back then. And the
(10:47):
very few memories I have of childhood, I
have some pretty funny communism
memories as I think about them because I
just remember, like, my mom putting me online
to stand even though I was, like, four
years old. It's like, stand here and wait
for the breadline and, like, stand here and
wait for the milkline. So of those, like,
weird communist memories, I do remember
little I I remember being little, little Amelia
(11:09):
in, like, a a stroller,
and people would just be like, oh, look.
You're so cute. And then they would say,
what do you wanna be when you grow
up? And I remember that even in, like,
stroller age, I would just sort of go,
which in Russian means a teacher.
And and so and then they'd ask me,
like, why do I wanna be a teacher?
(11:29):
I just assumed, well, my mommy's a teacher,
so I wanna be like my mommy.
But then as I came to step into
this understanding of, like, who am I? And
one of the ways in positive psychology that
we describe purpose is we describe it, the
way that my my friend and, dear colleague,
Karen Rokheim, describes it as the active way
(11:49):
you uniquely impact the world. And for me,
teaching and spreading is like that is my
purpose in life, delighting people,
bringing out the best of them, helping them
know that
they are powerful beyond measure, and helping them
navigate the ins and outs of their their
life so that they can navigate life with
greater mastery. That's my purpose. That's why I'm
(12:11):
here. But I don't think I really understood
more of that until I went through my
own hero's journey as all of us do.
And I think that
that that core aspect of like all human
beings are wired with this this gift of
being of a yearning for a calling or
for a quest or a journey to go
(12:31):
on.
And so that understanding that I would be
here to help and to be of service
was kind of always present. I can then
fast forward to being in elementary school and,
Michael Jackson's, like, heal the world, make it
a better place. I I'm totally dating myself,
but, like,
we sang that song in chorus, and I
was the kid who could not carry a
(12:52):
tune for the life of me. But I
was the most passionate
singer of that song, third row, big
big chubby cheeks and big bow in my
hair. And and I was like, that song
was like, yes. Like, heal the world. Like,
make it a better place for future generations.
Like, that that I I just I got
(13:13):
it. Like, that was what it was about.
And then I remember at some point, someone
somewhere in school said, well, that's not cool
or that's not that's cheesy or, like, how
Pollyanna of you or whatever that that messaging
was.
And I just sort of learned, like, oh,
keep it to myself.
Like, I wasn't I wasn't deterred. I wasn't
(13:34):
like, oh, okay. That's that's not what I'm
gonna be here to do in life. It
was just like, oh, be careful who you
say that to,
even as a young child.
But that that was just always something that
was just really clear for me. I was
like, if I'm not here to leave the
world somewhat better when I leave than when
I came in, then what am I doing
here?
And I had a series of challenges that
(13:56):
my family and I navigated that started from
childhood.
When I was 14, my brother passed away.
He was 24,
and he was swimming at night with his
fiancee and some friends at a,
the ocean. We lived close to Long Beach
in New York, and,
my brother was a young 24 year old
(14:16):
who had his whole world ahead of him
and just become a stockbroker,
got engaged, was gonna be married, was getting
ready to move out on his own.
And his fiancee started drowning in the ocean
when they were swimming late at night, and
my brother ran in to try to rescue
her.
And in do rescuing her, he ran in
after the other woman that was also in
(14:37):
a similar position,
and they drowned together. They probably drowned each
other. And so that was the first sort
of real
massive
challenge and adversity that I and my family
had to navigate. And I think the how
did I get here was through
the understanding
that
it takes a village. And as a child,
(14:59):
that that loss in my family,
in one way, put me very deeply on
a spiritual path because I feel like I
had so much spiritual intervention that connected me
with this idea that
I don't know what I don't know what
happens when people die. I we have no
guarantee. And some people would say things like,
you know, your brother's still with you or
everything happens for a reason. Just like all
(15:20):
of this storytelling that I saw, and it
was like, I somehow intuitively understood that
I have no way of understanding why this
happened,
but I'm gonna tell myself a story and
I'm gonna stick to it. And so I
just kind of, like, committed to a story.
I was like, you know, my brother was
young,
but he lived his life full out. And
I don't know why this happened, but I'm
(15:42):
going to use this to be a better
person somehow.
And so I use that idea of reframing,
that I came to later learn as a
key tool for resilience. I learned this idea
of just being connected to this possibility that
there is something greater than ourselves in life,
and that put me onto a very spiritual
path and a spiritual quest of of curiosity.
(16:05):
And then many other challenges that came over
the course of many years after that. My
mom got diagnosed with ovarian cancer,
something we battled for ten years together, a
very challenging,
powerful, yet very painful journey for her.
My mom passed when I was 27.
(16:25):
My dad passed when I was 35. He
died of COVID.
And so there's this interesting sort of life
that I live that I feel like I've
I've been privy to, and I used to
call it my my my my polarized life
because even with all of these challenges, I
also had so many
powerful highs in my life where
I while while my brother passed and it
(16:46):
was such a difficult time, I also had
this blessing of becoming a professional kids party
entertainer,
a career that I started at 14 and
lasted until I was 26.
And over the course of that time, I
got to get paid a lot of really
good money to have fun. Like, it was
crazy, and I was traveling all over and
got to be developed in this very crucial
(17:08):
stage of my life to be able to
create experiences for people and bring people happiness
and joy and be a part of their
most important life events, like their bar mitzvahs
and their weddings and their sweet sixteens and
their corporate parties. And so it was like,
wow, this contrast of this, like, incredible high
and this really deep low
and learning how to navigate those. And even
(17:29):
just right now, I'll I'll be vulnerable in
this podcast. I think this is the first
time I'm sharing this in such a public
forum. But
just a couple of days ago on August
10, I married the love of my life
and had the most incredible
day of my life.
And we're just we're still in that, like,
happy honeymoon bliss,
(17:50):
kind of experience.
And then a week later, I experienced what
I would say was the hardest, most
difficult
day of my life a week later, which
as, I miscarried and wound up in wound
up in the hospital for an emergency D
and C
for something that I
had thought I had experienced a lot of
pain. And I've had knee surgeries, and I've
(18:12):
had emotional pain of people that have been
lost. And I was like, I never knew
a pain like this was even fathomable in
the human body. And it was just lasted
the day, and I'm fine now. But I
literally had the thought, like, I'd rather be
dead right now than feeling what I'm feeling.
And I was like, the contrast, like, best
day of my life, a week later, the
(18:33):
hardest day of my life. And that's life.
That's life. Right? And so
I feel like that that
life
just you just there's, like, that saying goes
where, like, the best you could you can't
control the tide, but you can learn how
to surf.
And I feel like that's been my life
is learning how to surf
and then recognizing that there's actually we live
(18:55):
in this really incredible abundant time where there
are people whose life and their purpose has
been dedicated to researching
how
to help people serve better.
And so I've gotten to learn the science
and learn from the researchers and read the
studies and conduct experiments myself and then also
(19:15):
just have to put this stuff into practice
with my own life. It's just what when
you when you love what you do, you
just chip away and you just keep doing
it. You know? So that's me in a
nutshell, I think. That's beautiful. Thank you so
much for sharing
the
really hard stuff and the really beautiful stuff,
and and I'm I'm so sorry that
(19:36):
I'm so happy for you for the joy
of having met the love of your life,
and I was
so, so blessed to have spent
five days with the love of your life
recently at a retreat that Did he turn
to you on? The love of your life
too because everybody was so easy to love.
My god. He's incredible.
Incredible.
The most beautiful person. Second most one of
(19:57):
the most beautiful people in the world. And
then to have such a moment of pain
and sadness that,
you know, that the whole thing of, like,
you know, who deserves
happiness versus unhappiness and those horrible lines about,
you know, people who suffer, they deserve to
suffer and people who are good, you know,
it's you throw it out the window and
(20:18):
you're like, it has nothing to do with
who you are. Like, we we go through
these these horrible bumps in the roads and
these horrible highs
and you're the gift of resilience to teach
people. You have taught tens of like tens
of thousands, I think at this point, right?
Like people like me who are then teaching
tens of thousands each, right? Like it's just
(20:40):
the gift that you've brought forth
to take
whatever life you're given
and, you know, deal with the hard stuff,
grow from it and
just thrive in the good stuff
because
you get to do this once. We don't
know what's next, as you said. Right? So,
(21:01):
like, make make a difference in the world
and make it
leave it better than you than you arrived
at. And, you know, those those
pieces of wisdom are just what
we need here. So, I mean and they're
all connected to purpose. Right?
So one of the other things that you
said that really hit me was,
(21:22):
and when Phil and I were talking about
it earlier,
who's on a podcast about the alligators and
breathing,
about the story in your head and you
chose
like, that story that you shared about
your
decision to choose a story,
knowing the way your brain works. And you
certainly do know that
that we put pieces together and we choose
(21:44):
what pieces to put together in a story
and that you made the decision to say
this is the story that will move me
forward in life,
not keep me stuck.
And
I I just think that's just one of
the most important
tools in our resilience toolbox
to, like, understand where the story comes from
and that you get to choose it. I
don't do you wanna talk more about that?
(22:05):
Yeah. Absolutely.
It is the foundation of what we call
cognitive behavioral therapy,
meaning a cognitive behavioral therapist helps people understands
how their understand how their cognitions
impact their behavior
so that you, you know, we can use
the example of you have two people witness
an accident, two people watch the same thing
(22:25):
happen, and we'll have very different stories of
of what they see. And so for me,
the
intuitive decision for that that call to action,
came just because of the fact that I
watched a lot of television, to be honest.
You know, there wasn't while I was going
to see the school psychologist and other things,
like, no one no one said, Amelia,
(22:47):
your capacity to flourish in the world is
going to be based on your storytelling of
this particular moment.
But I joke that the way that I
learned to speak English because, you know, nobody
taught me how to speak English. We came
to this country and my parents had to
go to work. And so I sat there
in front of the TV and
I used, like, Looney Tunes and commercials and
all sorts of other things. And next thing
you know, I'm speaking English. So, you know,
(23:09):
even though I don't watch a lick of
television now, it was a big influence. And
so, honestly, the only thing I could say
to myself was like, okay. Of all the
movies you've ever seen,
this is that point in the narrative. This
is the point in the the movie or
the show where the person has to make
a choice. And and I just remember I
can remember where I was. I was in
my bedroom. I had a picture of my
(23:29):
brother up in the room. I had I
I had actually moved into his room because
he was the big brother. He had the
big room. I had the tiny room.
Then my parents were like, well, you can
take his room now. And that was weird
because I was, like, happy I had a
bigger room, but sad I didn't have a
brother, you know, so I'm just going through
this. And and so I just I was
like, I'm then this is the this is
(23:50):
this point. Like, I have this turning point,
and and this is the decision I'm gonna
make. But then, of course, later on, as
I came to study positive psychology,
this is the foundation of everything from post
traumatic growth. So we hear a lot about
post traumatic stress disorder. And and I think
post traumatic stress disorder is part story, but
it's also part physiological.
(24:10):
Whereas post traumatic growth is really story based,
and then your body catches up. And so
there's a lot to what happens when people
go through post through traumatic events and they
are disabled or dysfunctioning
or or stuck or suffering still.
And then we know that there's this whole
field of resilience and what helps people
not be stuck and actually get back to
(24:32):
where they were before. And then there's this
field of how people
grow as a result of trauma. And it
a lot of the interventions or exercises that
we use to help people
work that has to do with storytelling.
There's a really powerful TED talk by Amy
Purdy,
who is an an incredible
resilient woman with this profound story of loss
(24:54):
and creation.
And she has a line that says, if
your life were a book and you were
the author,
how would you want this story to go?
We can't rewrite.
We can't retell stories from the lens of
the past, although we can still tweak the
story. We can't change what's happened, but we
can tweak the story for greater forgiveness and
(25:14):
greater acceptance.
But the storytelling aspect is the foundation and
recognizing
that even when we have no way of
telling if the story is true or not,
the question is, does the story serve you
and serve us? And I've just had so
many
validation moments of that when when my brother
passed that, of course, I can look back
on and understand now. But the biggest one
(25:36):
was the story of of blame,
of whose fault was it. You know? And
and I just I realized very quickly that
we all had
everyone that was involved in this had a
different version of the story of why it
happened.
My version of the story initially was this
is my fault. Had I not begged my
parents to go away that weekend, my brother
would still be alive.
(25:57):
His fiancee, Marina, who I still get to
be in contact with her and her husband
came to my wedding. It's just so beautiful
to still have that beautiful connection in our
life.
You know, hers was if I didn't if
I would didn't go in the water, he'd
still be alive right now.
My father took on the narrative. Had I
not moved my family to this country, it
was my decision for us to move to
(26:17):
America.
My son would be alive right now. And
my mom's is the most painful, which was,
had I not raised such a brave son,
he'd still be alive right now and everyone
else in between. There was so many stories,
and I was just like, and here I
am just watching the whole thing going, how
fascinating.
And and
that
(26:37):
even before I knew the light, how fascinating
was still thinking this is so interesting.
And and what we know from a neuroscientific
perspective is that human beings
are
wired for storytelling.
All of these wonderful
animals that you are bringing us into connection
with in your podcast,
Jessica, they're incredible.
However, they they lack story
(26:59):
Yeah. Which is great. It's like we get
to actually observe
nature
storyless.
We think they lack story at this point.
We don't even know because we're We don't
know. Discovering Yeah. Unbelievable things that animal species
can do. Yeah. They they like, whether or
not they have they have a sense of
storytelling
about who they are and what their purpose
is, you know, so that they just they
(27:20):
just are. They just exist. But this ability
to
have a story about what has happened before
and to tell a story about what's gonna
happen in the future, up until now, we
scientists,
think that that capacity comes from a prefrontal
cortex
and,
therefore, a narrative telling brain, a wiring for
stories.
And so it's like we're always telling stories.
(27:42):
The question is is whether or not the
story you're telling
serves you or doesn't, but it is the
name the name of the game from when
you are born to when we take our
last breath here.
It's so interesting. What I'm what's coming up
for me is the the goldfish and the
ten second memory that, like, the goldfish only
has ten seconds of the story, and then
(28:03):
it's gone. And there's so many, you know,
pros and cons to the human capacity
to
live as a storyteller
and the lack of agency
that
so many people have
where stories
are not, they're not in control of their
story because they don't know they can be.
(28:25):
So it takes them down a path of
a story that is not serving them, as
you said, and then
the opportunity
to learn the kind of things that you're
teaching and that you're teaching us to teach
where you can own your story and define
your story and
take all the dark stuff that happens and
make meaning out of it and
(28:45):
create your life
in a positive rippling positive way instead, that
human capacity
is only great if you know how to
use it.
Otherwise, it's really difficult. Like, it creates all
that fear and all that darkness and all
that
separation that we have these days, like so
yeah.
(29:06):
Going to the goldfish, it's like telling a
goldfish what's water
because this thing and that comes from so
many different parables as to what it means
that this is water.
But the the idea that that
superpower,
that
capacity that we all come in with, yet
we don't even realize we have a choice.
(29:29):
It's so
present. It's such a part of the human
condition that we don't even realize it. It
would be like asking a fish what is
water.
By the way, we will post in the
show notes the video of
the the brilliant, this is water by, and
I'm drawing a total blank which is who
wrote it.
David Foster Wallace. Thank you. David Foster Wallace.
(29:50):
Yes.
It's it's an incredible metaphor.
So to that end where I feel like
we're going to a place where, you know,
as a child,
the more you can learn about
the control you have over your story and
and the options you have for how you
live your life, the better. And you've created
(30:10):
this incredible
path to
positive education
and starting this whole
journey of
of taking ownership of your life and your
story
at, you know, the earliest ages possible through
teachers,
your his you know, your love teaching.
Can you talk a little bit about,
you know, the the power of starting young
(30:32):
and
what you've done with positive this whole positive
education path?
Yeah.
And,
and and it's like we can start young,
but the work is never done. So,
yeah, we've built a number of different programs.
I've built a number of different programs and
access points for people to
engage with positive psychology,
particularly engage with it themselves as a profession.
(30:56):
So for people who work in education or
parents of children, we run a certification
program called the PEC program or the positive
education certificate,
where we look at teaching positive psychology
and give quipping teachers with the tools to
teach these skills to children.
And, developmentally, children will be in different stages
(31:16):
of what they're capable of starting to explore.
So with little, little ones, you're not gonna
be talking to them about story the stories
they're telling themselves because developmentally,
they're not quite actually making those stories just
yet, but we can work on self regulation
and emotional regulation
and mindfulness and presence and start teaching them
(31:37):
about gratitude
and at a start at a young age,
start recognizing the character strengths that children are
already bringing in. And then as they get
older, and we actually know developmentally
when some of those hiccup points start for
children,
where they start to gain a sense of
self consciousness, and they go from being, like,
very happy kids just so happy with all
(31:59):
the things to all of a sudden downing
themselves and comparing themselves. And they start creating
narratives, and they start getting more sophisticated
stories about how the world works. And this
self consciousness
and the separation from parents and from others,
can lead to a different set of skills
that we need to teach them, and a
lot of these skills are not taught in
(32:20):
school.
So what I've been doing is working with
our pet program to
help schools adapt curriculum that goes beyond just
social and emotional learning, but also goes into
the actual nitty gritty skills of resilience and
positive psychology
and how we can train teachers
to learn this first for themselves. Teachers need
this because we know that the success of
(32:42):
a child and school is also strongly influenced
by the resilience and the well-being of the
teachers themselves and their parents, of course.
So we have curriculum for that, and then
we run our longest running program, our certificate
in applied positive psychology program. It's called the
CAP program, which it was your, I think,
entry point into us, Jessica.
(33:02):
And so the CAP program is our deep
dive, and it's for anybody that wants
the equivalent of a master's degree, but without
the the
master's thesis and without the reading the journal
articles and read writing journal journal articles. It's
a kind of accelerated path of how you're
taught. And over the course of nine months,
we give people a deep dive into
(33:23):
just about everything that science has said are
the pathways for resilience and well-being.
And so that is, you know, people bringing
that into their own life. We also have
programs where we train people in how to
be life coaches, how to be resilience trainers,
how to be
consultants,
how to give workshops,
give courses. We have fully made for you
(33:44):
programs that you can plug and play. And
so that's a little bit of what we
do, but a lot of it has to
do with the starting with yourself. And so
the flourishing center has everything from these deep
dive certification programs all the way down to
smaller programs that,
I we call Lyft.
And, we've gone through ebbs and flows from
the pandemic of this program, and how many
(34:06):
classes we run. But right now, I'm running
a daily class every Wednesday at 11AM,
which is the personal application of this where
I've wanted to, for years, build out a
dojo or, like, a place where people can
go to practice positive psychology every day just
the same way you would go to the
gym and take a workout class or a
yoga studio or,
(34:28):
big orange theory fan.
So we even have a program called Lyft
that for not our full certification
programs, but for $10 a class,
people can come in and they can just
practice positive psychology every day because the stuff
is about habit change and it's about reframing
and rewiring yourself. And so those are some
(34:48):
of the different things that we do.
And one of the important it's amazing. I've
taken many of the programs I've taught,
taught left and Taught left.
Which was a highlight of of my life.
But one of the most important lessons here,
I think that we need to really
share is that it is not like an
over, you know, you don't just like learn
(35:08):
a resilience tool and then become resilient in
that way. You, you know,
just for example, change the story in your
head. I mean, it's a lifetime practice.
I'm sure, you know, you still
have, you know, have to switch the story
to pause and switch a story. It doesn't
automatically
just just become the right the positive story
(35:29):
just because you've been practicing it for twenty
years or thirty years.
It takes
each every everything
you would learn in Lyft and in cap
and in PAC, all of them
are lifelong practices. And the community that you
create
around
the thousands of us that are all connected
and are all talking about this and sharing
(35:50):
this is what makes the difference, is what
what makes the ripples happen.
And to the,
to the aspect of teaching young children and
the
their capacity
to process,
you know, the language and the concepts around,
you know, storytelling or whatever it is that
they're not ready for. That's one of the
things I love about this use of metaphor
(36:12):
and animals and the idea of giving them,
you know, the the parrot fish purpose. I
mean, Amelia is the best. Like, she added
the v to
the vitality
to the positive psychology model that was that
has been, you know, that is existent in
in our world of science.
And,
she is dressed like a parrot fish because
(36:34):
there's a metaphor
that we need
to that we will benefit from being able
to see
the parrotfish when we think about purpose. It's
chewing of the sand that you'll you know,
whoever's listened or hasn't listened to the episode
before this, that that was the preview to
this, you know, the parrot fish purpose
is
(36:54):
so powerful and it gets them up every
morning out of their sleep bubble, which you'll
hear about as well in another episode,
and they spend their day doing something to
make the world better
to clean out and help
the coral reef to grow and to thrive
and then to help the animals below them
have sand to live in and us to
(37:14):
play in and all that. So,
you know,
the there's language, there's concepts, there's metaphor. All
of this is so much part of how
our brain works best,
and focusing on it is a great thing.
You could just talk a bit about how
you added that layer
of
of of what what of pathophysiology
(37:35):
that really matters.
Yeah. When I came into positive psychology,
the the models that existed for well-being was
we're we're,
looking at what are the pathways or what
are the approaches
that
people would take if they wanted to become
happier and they wanted to become healthier and
(37:57):
to live more flourishing lives. And so when
I first started, the model that the founder
of the field, Martin Seligman, had gone by
that came out of research was called the
PEM model,
which was the importance of positive emotions,
engagement, and meaning.
And so we identified that how do people
become authentically happier? They could increase their frequency
(38:19):
of positive emotions while
decreasing the frequency or length of their negative
emotions, not getting rid of them, but decreasing
them some, becoming more engaged or connected to
their life and their world,
which is like being more mindful, being more
present, using your strengths.
And then this parrot fish aspect of having
purpose, which goes under the meaning, having a
(38:40):
meaningful life, a reason for being,
feeling like your life makes sense to you,
that you are able to be of contribution.
And for for many years of studying positive
psychology,
that was sort of the model. And then
Martin Seligman added to the model from new
additional research and added relationships
(39:00):
as an essential pathway to well-being and also
a sense of accomplishment and achievement to to
well-being.
And while I was,
a student and studying positive psychology for my
master's degree,
I also became a certified yoga teacher and
had been on my own personal well-being
journey,
both with my own relationship to my body
(39:22):
and health and wellness, but also with my
mom getting sick. So when my mom got
diagnosed with ovarian cancer, I was still in
high school, and I would go with my
mom to all of these doctor's appointments. And
she had multiple surgeries and hysterectomies
and
hernia surgeries. And she had her colon removed,
and then her her bladder removed. Like, she
was
(39:42):
incredible, the things that my mother had gone
through. And when she got cancer, I was
also trying my best to find all the
ways that we could support her. And so
I was looking at nutritional medicine, and I
was looking at stress reduction. I was looking
at nature exposure
and physical activity and even laughter.
And that approach that now then is the
(40:04):
foundation of my PhD work, which is in
mind body medicine,
are all the things that are considered complementary
and alternative medicine. And I found that there
is this separation between what was happening in
positive psychology to everything else that was bodily
oriented.
And I felt like everything I was learning
in
my positive psychology training and yoga training, I
(40:24):
was learning through the body. And then it's
like yoga does for the body what positive
psychology does for the mind, but then in
further training, understanding that you can't separate out
mind and body. And in fact, now certain
researchers use them as one word, mind body,
because it's not mind and body. They're they're
so intimately connected. They are just one. And
so when I was,
(40:45):
when I heard that Marty Seligman was, open
to changing his model, he went from PEM
to PERMA. I was like, oh, this is
my chance. And I said, Marty, if I
can give you a research based argument for
why vitality is a missing part of the
equation,
would you be open to changing your model?
And, he wrote back to me very quickly
as Marty is known for, but he wrote
(41:05):
writes back with just one word. He's like,
no.
And I was like, okay.
But sort of like, you know, people telling
me, like, how naive of me to wanna
make the world a better place. It was
just like, okay, I went down the wrong
direction for that. And and I was like,
but I know I know that this is
this is the truth is that we can't
separate out flourishing
(41:27):
from this aspect of well-being of the body
and that sometimes what people think about as,
oh, well, why do we wanna spend time
in nature? Because it increases our positive emotions,
or why do we exercise? Because it'll give
us a sense of achievement. That's sort of,
I think, what Marty's argument was was that
he saw, well, no. No. No. This engagement
of with vitality
(41:47):
is the thing that supports these other pathways.
Whereas I felt, and now research supports, and
a decade later, he came back to me
and he said, Emilia, you were right. Vitality
does belong in the model, but he still
sort of goes as, like, some people go
perma plus, perma plus health. And I'm like,
just call it vitality people.
But all of the things that we look
at is this physical approach. It's like
(42:09):
there's the same way that the parrot fish
is not
we don't we don't know why the parrot
fish wakes up and decides to do what
it's doing.
It it probably does it because it is
what its body tells it to do.
And so when we have this aspect of
well-being and we're connected to our body, it's
like it's like I don't just exercise. I
don't just move because I know it's good
(42:31):
for me. It's what my body knows to
do. And that there's this wisdom to nature,
and there's this wisdom to our body that
we are extensions of. And so adding vitality
to the model and making sure that all
of the students who get trained in in
positive psychology through the Flourishing Center
are not just taught
the psyche
separated from the body. We teach sleep and
(42:53):
movement and food and sensuality
and sexuality
and nature and sunlight and breath
and,
even how we hold our body in space.
I'm actually feeling a bit embarrassed that you,
Jessica, are standing, and I'm usually the advocate
for standing station. Stand. I know. And I
thought about it. I was like, oh, but
if I if I I'm also I'm heading
(43:15):
out in a couple of minutes and I'm
leaving for a couple of days, so I
broke down my standing station. I do have
an ergonomic setup, though, of the separation of
my keyboard from my computer.
But, yes, ergonomics, how we hold our body
in space. These are things we do
not for like, they are they are means
within themselves and that they are,
that we do them for their own sake.
(43:35):
And so I'm very passionate
about putting vitality onto the map and helping
people
see the intricate
connection between the two and access the wisdom
of the body. Like, even right now, I'm
working on that myself where I know that
with this recent miscarriage that I had
cognitively,
rationally, emotionally, I felt like I was in
(43:56):
a really good place. I was like, okay.
You know, I got I got a free
boob job for my wedding dress because the
hormones changed my body very quickly. And I
was like, Wow, this wedding dress actually looks
even better.
And I got to I saw the lessons
in it and the blessing in it, and
I was like, It's not the right timing.
The body knows,
(44:16):
you know, we know we can get pregnant.
We'll get pregnant again. Like, I felt like
I was cognitively in a really good place,
but now I'm also sitting with but there's
a physical
grief that my body has gone through
and and a physical experience, and I don't
wanna
I don't wanna circumvent that. I don't wanna
over I I don't wanna spiritually bypass that.
(44:37):
And so for me, I've like, the respect
for my body in this process, and I've
had amazing
people in my life that I turn to
as somatic coaches that help me with that.
I use dance. I use movement or just
this awareness of my body. Like, you know,
rationally, I think I'm fine. But the other
day, I'm like, someone's like, oh, how are
you feeling? And I said, oh, you know,
we lost the baby. And I felt a
(44:58):
grief come over my body
in that moment, and it's bodily. It is
not rational. It's not in my mind. I
really I'm okay,
but I respect that. Hey. My body
needs to catch up to that process. And
so I think a lot of what I'm
what my passion is around this vitality piece
is just
bringing people back into this home. Your body
(45:19):
is the your home
for you, however you wanna define who you
are,
and taking good care of it. It's the
the is the ultimate health care that we
can depend on
and listening to it and being in in
respectful
relationship with it. And that's something that I
had to come to on my on through
many, many, many, many winding roads because I
(45:43):
you know, that wasn't taught to me, and
that wasn't modeled to me. And I had
to come into right relationship with my body
and then constantly remembering to do so.
Sleeping enough, you know, not not trying to
be over productive and sacrificing
my body's needs.
And it reminds me of because nature metaphors
just pop up.
(46:03):
You know, you you teach a lot about
the different places in your body that have
brains,
you know, like you're to listen to your
body doesn't mean listening to your head.
It means listening to your whole body and
scanning and paying attention to different aspects of
your body.
And the octopus, for example, has
(46:25):
brains on all of its arms, like its
brain isn't just in one place and, you
know, to recognize that our bodies have
wisdom and
information and messages
from every different part of our body and
to
really listen
and pay attention is so beneficial.
(46:46):
Right? Like, look at all the people who
have aches and pains and just keep living
through them and thinking they're gonna work through
them, but aren't actually working through them. They'll
get, you know, they'll they'll get over them.
I'll I can I can work through it,
but you have to do the work? You
have to do the listening.
Yeah,
that's amazing. So words of last have taken
a lot of your time words of,
(47:07):
wisdom around
whatever's come up for you here that our
listeners will I mean, there's been so many,
but whatever's coming up, it's it's just bursting
from
from you.
Gosh. So much.
But, yeah, I guess maybe to to
go to where we just closed around this,
(47:29):
like,
listening to yourself, like,
being able to do this thing that
sometimes we overcomplicate.
Like, what does it mean to be mindful?
What does it mean to be present? What
does it mean to be
in the now? And we can sometimes overcomplicate
it, but this is called
resilience gone wild. And so rather than, like,
(47:51):
wild, wild interventions and complex things for for
resilience,
in some ways, it can just be as
simple as the the
training our capacity to just notice and be
in the present moment,
which can be as simple as tuning into
your senses. So what do I hear? What
do I see? What do I smell? What
do I taste? What do I touch? What's
(48:12):
happening right here, right now? And just leading
with that curiosity.
And it is a way of us being
more resilient because we can take life one
step at a time, and we can be
here
now even when it's I'm here now planning
for what time I need to leave and
what I need to grab,
but it is it is that that very
(48:32):
basic process, and it's a process that can
help you tune into your body. Like,
my shoulder is a little tight and, you
know, my neck could probably use a little
massage or,
I'm thirsty and probably need more water or
I'm tired. I need to take a I
need to take a break or, wow, this
person's really
like, this thing that happened with this person
(48:52):
is really upsetting me. Like, what do I
need right now? It's being able to catch
and notice those things. And because we have
storytelling brains and we can be in the
past and we can be in the present
moment,
we really
sorry, in the future, and we really have
to train this present moment capacity
even if it's just for a few moments
here and there. What am I grateful for
right now? What am I noticing? What's beautiful
(49:14):
around me? And when you just do that,
you connect to nature, you connect to yourself,
you connect to others. So maybe that's just
my little
little tip.
Yeah. And I'm gonna take it further because
I know that's, you know, so much part
of of your thinking
is notice
your connection with people. Notice
(49:34):
the energy that's moving back and forth with
others in your life and others nearby and
others that you know and others that you
don't know and what energy you're putting out
there and and that you're getting back. So,
you know, use all those senses for not
just yourself, but a bigger picture of where
your life is. Yeah. Thank you, Amelia.
(49:57):
You're the greatest gift in my life. And,
I so appreciate and I'm so grateful for
this time that we had together and for
you sharing yourself
with those who are listening and those who
will listen.
And I can't wait. I get to spend
a weekend with Amelia in a couple of
weeks. So,
a joyful part of life. So we will
(50:19):
give you all the the notes and links
and all the stuff that that Amelia has
told you about and that you can use
to
boost your sense of purpose in your life.
And,
yeah. So it's all good. Good stuff. Thank
you. Thank you so much, Jessica. Keep up
the great work. Thank you.
(50:46):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai. Follow along with our
other BLI produced shows at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(51:06):
Anything else to add, Miles?
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