Shark Week Part 2 - The Art of Saving the Oceans and Marine Life with Francesca Page (Episode 48) - Resilience Gone Wild (WinWinWin Mindset)

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Yay!
I am so thrilled
to introduce you to Francesca Page, honestly a
hero of mine for the work that she's
doing, and I am thrilled to meet her
in person. I've been following Francesca for a
while now and the incredible work that she's
doing both on, you know, on different social
media platforms that she's sharing. And Francesca just
came back from UNOC in Nice, and I'd

(00:26):
love her to tell you about that as
well, is doing this incredible work to,
honestly, to do the same kind of passionate,
purposeful work that I am. So that's, I
guess, why I'm in love with her, that
we are trying to change
the metaphor of negativity, of natural world, and
to bring beauty to it and love and
connection so that we will take better care

(00:47):
of it. And the pathway
the pathways that Franchesca's offering us of just
an incredible
swath of brilliant art in all different forms,
as well as voice
that is is sharing stories.
So welcome, Franchesca. I am so thrilled for
you to be here, and and please just
tell us your version of yourself. That was

(01:08):
my version.
Oh, thank you. That was a lovely intro.
I really like thanks thanks for having me.
Yes, I'd love to introduce myself. I'm a
visual artist. I work with a variety of
different mediums from illustration, digital illustration, painting,
photography, underwater photography, writing.
I do believe that art is going to
save this planet. Art is this universal language

(01:29):
being able to connect with people from different
backgrounds, cultures, languages. It can transcend that and
something that I'm incredibly passionate about and I'm
sure you'll hear a lot of throughout this
podcast. It is my purpose in life to
try and communicate
the natural world,
and my curiosity
that led me to sort of create and
pave this sort of career

(01:50):
path of, sort of combining my passions for
the underwater world and nature with creativity. And
yeah, that's a little bit about me, but
I'm sure we'll dive a little bit more
into that. Can't wait. And the photo, the,
art, not a photo, the art right above
you, just to highlight the two different, totally
different directions that your art takes, two of

(02:10):
many, is I'm just seeing it now and
and hopefully people will watch on YouTube, but,
you know, you've got this magnificent piece of
art that is so passionate, passionately
illustrated
to send a message.
And then you've got this, like, scientific
because you are a scientist at the same
time and study whatever you're doing art on

(02:32):
to such incredible depths, no pun intended,
that it blows me away. So I can't
wait to share your shark project and the
other work that you're doing. So anyway, do
you wanna just quickly talk about those two
pieces of art and start? Yeah. Like with,
with my work, I'm not a scientist, actually.
I wish I was, but I come from
a family of scientists And unfortunately, maths was
my downfall,

(02:53):
so I wasn't able to go into the
science world. But I'm really passionate at communicating
science. My twin sister is a coral. She's
actually a doctor in coral science and come
from a family of scientists. I'm surrounded by
these people who are doing incredible work in
protecting,
our natural world. And then that's where I
come into play. I'm I'm that bridge that
sort of bridges the gap between science and

(03:14):
and you and the rest of,
the people, you know, they
art is this incredible
communicator. So with my work,
I'm heavily inspired by my own and, own
encounters and own adventures.
I really struggle to create art if I'm
not got this, like, emotional,
connection,
with it. So, like, the the painting here,

(03:36):
I've called it Poravida. I spent, a year
in Costa Rica, and this is quite a
few years ago now. And, I kinda wanted
to create this painting that was inspired by
sort of like a year and a year
of adventures
into one painting. So we have, like, Patrick
the Tucum, who I met at the Tucum
Rescue Ranch in San Jose. And then we
have I did some turtle restoration,
conservation work, and then the butterfly and the

(03:58):
sunset. Yeah. So to me, it was like
Costa Rica, autumn one, and then obviously the
scientific illustration. That's kind of where my kind
of journey as an artist began, was with
scientific illustration. And then, you know, in the
space of nearly a decade, it sort of
spanned off into lots of different directions.
I mean, just to I just I did
a little digging because, that's, you know, the
fun of where you the path you came

(04:20):
from. And we have to hear your story.
Okay? Because the only parts I really know,
and they're they're little bits are and I
just learned, is it an identical twin sister?
Is there another one of you out? No.
Not identical. And we're IVF, actually. So we
are very much sisters born on the same
day, but we had a test tube. So
Love that. I know. And I grew up
in when we used to call it test

(04:41):
tube babies. So, like, the fact that you
have these two beautiful people in part of
our world is such an incredible,
like, gift
to science. Right? So all I know is
that you actually were terrified
in a phobia
about the water, the oceans, pools because of
sharks. There's gotta be a story behind that.

(05:02):
I know my son had this terrible fear
of,
land animals as well as sea animals because
a baby a flying squirrel fell into his
bed on his pillow when he was very
young, and he didn't sleep with a pillow,
we're just talking about, for, like, fifteen years.
And he got sort of pushed down in

(05:22):
a pool
very soon after the experience with a squirrel
that when the a dog that was much
bigger than him sort of pushed him down
not to because just that's the way things
happen in a pool. And he spent years
terrified
of animals, of being close to animals, and
then he begged us for a dog, and
we got a dog, and he is now
in love with with nature. And he had
you know, it's these moments, right, of

(05:45):
the creating fear,
the Jaws movie that
everyone became afraid of sharks, like, that you
and I are both working on, and the
moment of change. So, like, when you were
13, somehow you ended up in a scuba
diving trip. So tell us
how this how we get rid you know,
all of what I just started Yeah. I
feel like with my journey becoming

(06:05):
completely ocean obsessed and, obviously, sharks are very
special place in my heart.
I feel like my journey is something that
a lot of people can relate to. I
didn't grow up by the ocean.
My partner, he did. He's obsessed with the
ocean, and he's got very, like you know,
he grew up by the ocean. He spent
every day, so that's where his love for
the ocean came from. But with mine, it
was a very much a journey.
I had a near drowning experience when I

(06:27):
was three, and I have very vivid memories
of it. I mean, it was probably a
lot more, you know, I'm very I was
three, so in my brain, it was probably
a lot more dramatic than it actually was.
But, that was it. I was,
very much like even going into a swimming
pool was,
a big no no for me. I mean,
I learned my my dad forced me to
learn to swim. So I I kind of
ticked the boxes with swimming, but then I

(06:48):
was like, no. I don't really wanna go.
Thanks, dad.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, I grew up,
like, with a very active family, so hiking
in mountains. And being out in nature was
a really big part of my childhood.
And I was obsessed with drawing tigers and
big cats and lots of different land animals,
and I still am very passionate about land
animals.

(07:08):
But I was it was the ocean was
just this thing of, like, it was this
blue blue desert that would look at, and
that was as far as we're gonna get
with the with being anywhere near this body
of water. And then when I was 13,
I think this shows a little bit about
my dad's parenting style.
I think he was like, enough's enough. We
can't have one of my kids
just go in the ocean or do anything,

(07:30):
not even a swimming pool. I genuinely thought
a shark was gonna eat me in a
swimming pool, like it was this weird narrative
that I built in my head, and so
he bought me scuba diving lessons in a
local swimming pool, there was just some, like,
you know, try dives going, and so he
just put me through and he's like, you're
gonna go do it, and I was like,
you are kidding me, I am not going,
I'm not going.

(07:51):
I was very reluctant,
but I had a one on one session,
I think my dad must have said to
the teacher, she's she's very scared. She needs
some help.
And, yeah, I went under the water for
the first time and, obviously, I I had,
like, social anxiety. I had all these other
these things that I guess as a teenager,
you're going through. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I just went underwater for the first

(08:12):
time, blue bubbles, and I remember just feeling
the sense of calm
and just, you know, it's such a peaceful
place even in the swimming pool. And I
kind of got obsessed and for, like, the
space of two years, I was
every single week going to this local swimming
pool, and then I got to a point
where I was helping younger people, but I
still have wasn't certified. I remember the instructor
saying to me, you know, in order to

(08:33):
get your open water, you need to go
in the open ocean. And I was like,
oh, no. No. No. Like, the the swimming
pool is good. I'm good with the swimming
pool. And he's like, no, no, we're going
in the we're going in the ocean. So,
then went on my first scuba diving trip
at 15,
to,
Gozo, which is just off of Italy.
And, yeah, I went in the ocean for
the first time. I didn't see much. I

(08:54):
saw a conch and a sea cucumber, and
that was pretty much it. I was sold.
I was like, wow, this this place is
amazing. Yeah. Really taught me, like, learning to
scuba dive. It kind of it taught me
that fear was all in the mind and
that this narrative that I built up in
my head.
And now I try and approach like if
I'm fearful of something, I've realized that actually
that fear, one is coming from a place
of
instincts.

(09:15):
We are animals at the end of the
day and we don't want to die. And
so you're gonna have like, maybe be careful.
But this really, it was just a narrative
that I built up in my head. And
then I kind of just got obsessed with
diving. I mean, when you put your head
under water and see how magical it is,
it's all in world and you feel weightlessness.
And
for space of sixty minutes, you don't have

(09:36):
to talk to anyone, you can just be
in that moment and it's like the most
amazing sense of mindfulness.
It led me to when I graduated from
art school, I went and then worked as
a scuba diving instructor,
Well, I went and did my qualifications and
built up to be a scuba instructor and
worked for that for a little bit, and
that's where I discovered underwater photography. I hadn't
really picked up a camera. I was really
into photography growing up, but I kind of

(09:57):
stopped for a few years, and then I
bought a little compact camera and I thought,
you know what, I wanna take some really
nice shots of fish to paint from.
And that was as far as it was
gonna go, but then I fell in love
with that and then now I also have
a career in that. So it's sort of
this, I feel
like life is a journey, right? And I
feel like you're constantly presented with these paths.
And if you pick one, it kind of

(10:18):
leads you onto the next, and you just
never know where it's gonna take you.
As long as you approach life that way,
which you are. Right? Like that, let's see
where this path takes me. There's something fabulous
in any one of these paths, so let's
pick one. So there were two things that
I wanted to ask you. One is, did
your sister
because she's into Carl. So how did your
sister is it just two of you?

(10:40):
Yes. Well, I've got a brother as well,
but, it was really us that kind of
yeah. I don't know. My brother likes the
ocean, but it's I mean, my sister and
I are the only, like, ocean obsessed people
in my whole family.
I'm like, when I go to family gatherings,
I'm like, oh, how's the fish stuff? And
I'm like, yeah. It's good. It's more than
just that, but, yeah, it's good.
Yeah. So I think my sister and I
very much, like, we found the ocean together.

(11:02):
We when we were 17,
we went to Indonesia and we did, like,
a coral restoration project just like you do,
like, volunteering. But, I mean, at that time,
you know, we didn't know anything about corals,
you know, very naive, very open to everything.
And, yeah, that kind of, I think, very
much a little light bulb went off in
both of our heads, and that's caused my
sister, you know, she now is a coral

(11:23):
scientist doing some amazing things for coral research.
And then something that really sort of changed
my perspective with sharks, because I I mean,
I learned scuba dive. I still was scared
of sharks. Like, I I still even just
seeing, like, a blacktip reef shark, which is
a very harmless shark Mhmm. In the ocean,
I'm like, oh my god. It's terrifying even
though they're only about a meter long and
they're very harmless.

(11:43):
And I was in The Philippines.
I was about, yeah, about 17
years old, give or take.
And
I'm sure lots of people who are listening
who
love sharks and diving know Manapasua
in The Philippines, which is a very popular
dive spot to see thresher sharks. Do you
know what a thresher shark is?

(12:04):
So describe it because I follow I I
watched so many of your videos about the
different sharks that you've studied, the 200
plus, I'm sure.
And,
each one has you speak of with such
passion and joy and love
and differentiating them and and that they're not
scary and all the rest. So tell us

(12:25):
about thresher sharks. Yeah. So thresher sharks is
an incredible shark.
Their tail is as long as their body,
and they have these huge eyes. They usually
live at quite deep, deep depths, but they'll
come up, to these cleaning stations to get
cleaned,
which is where little tiny fish will come
and it's like Incredible. Right? Like, let's just
put it out there. Right? Like, if you
don't when you fake when you learn about

(12:47):
this cleaning station thing,
it is the most mind blowing thing that,
like, it changes your whole view of
life under the ocean that there is so
much systemic
activity going on in these ecosystems
that there are cleaning stations where specific fish
go, and that's their job, and they get
protected by doing it. And there are fish

(13:09):
and sharks and turtles and and all the
rest that know where to go. The whole
thing is honestly
just completely out of
science fiction, but it's so real. So go
ahead. Sorry. I get really excited about cleaning
stations. It's an exciting thing. Like, the ocean
is this incredible place, and I feel like
that that's something as a storyteller. It's like,
I just wanna communicate it. You know? I

(13:30):
know that I'm I'm privileged in the sense
that I'm able to go underwater, and I've
had those experiences.
And I've it's made me feel like, actually,
as my my role as a storyteller, as
a communicator, I need to communicate this. It's
actually especially
right now, there's never been a more important
time in human history
to communicate the natural world and to connect
people on an emotional level, which is where

(13:52):
I think art serves as that beautiful vehicle
because it is a motive. It allows us
to feel something. And that's really when you
feel something, that's when you're gonna want to
protect it. And I think with me, like,
I've had those I've felt a lot, especially
underwater. And so this particular
experience with a thresher shark and something that's
really cool about thresher sharks is they have

(14:13):
these huge tails and they use them as
a whip. They actually have very small mouths.
They're massive sharks. Their body's
not actually really that big. It's just because
they have these huge tails. And how they
do is they literally stun their, their prey
and their tail can whip at 60 miles
per hour, which is just incredible. And then
not In the water, which is It's just
it's just restrictive.

(14:34):
And, you know, they're able to do this.
Then they'll go and pick their prey. So,
yeah, they're they're just amazing creatures. They're also,
I think, very adorable looking. They have these
huge
eyes, almost like manga characters. They're very, very
cute. Anyway, so I I did a PADI
threat back sharks
specialty course, one of those sort of things
you do, and it was my first time
learning about sharks. I remember I was quite

(14:55):
reluctant to do the course. I was like,
oh, yeah. Why would I want to learn
about sharks? But I did it anyway because
I think there was a discount or something.
I don't know. I was young, and I
was like, yeah. Let's do it. And I
started learning about sharks and learning about how
many different types of sharks and, like, the
biology and how important they are for the
ecosystem. We kill 100,000,000 sharks every year, and
I was just like I remember this information
overload. I was like, woah. I had no

(15:16):
idea how cool they were and how important
they were and, also, how many are disappearing
from our oceans. And a part of it
is that you have to go dive with
one. And I remember that part. I was
like, I'm really I'm really keen on the
learning part. The diving part, I'm good. I'll
I'll skip that. But they're like, no. You
have to do it in order to get
the Well, you have to be in physical
connection, and I that's, like, sort of the
bigger story of this whole thing. Right? Like,

(15:36):
if you can actually be in the same
space, you realize that you're sharing our world.
And, otherwise, it's just us
looking down on them. Right? Whatever the whatever
the disease is. Oh, 100%. Like, we are
animals at the end of the day, and
we are not above
any animal. We are we are the same.
We are equal.
And,
the more I'm in nature and the more

(15:58):
I share the water and just or to
just the wildlife in general, I might just
realize, like, how we're so similar in a
like in some ways.
And I always joke that I actually find
sharks a lot easier to read than humans.
Like, they very much tell you just by
a simple, like, pectoral the pectoral fins, which
is their fins,
either side of their body. When they're down,

(16:18):
they they're not happy. They they would like
you to leave. If they stop bobbing their
head or blinking, they could also share show
you that they're they're hungry and that, like,
they're they're checking you out for food. And
so, like, I feel like when I share
the water with sharks, I find it very
easy to just be like, yeah. That's a
chill shark. I'll I'll swim with that. Well,
they want to be with me or nah,
that they're not wanting. Wow. Yeah. And I
feel like I I love animal behavior, and

(16:39):
I feel like if you're gonna share,
this the space with these with animals, you
need to love their language. Like, every animal
has their own language
and so important. And their energy. Right? Like
and this is all about, like, I I
do a lot of studying, coaching around positive
and negative energy that we ripple.
And if we
pay attention to each other's energy, our own,

(17:02):
and what we're sending out and other people's
energy as they are in that moment,
the connection at that time and the relationship
is completely different. It's much more respectful. It's
much more,
in tune.
Right? So, like, if you I I hadn't
heard this before. This is such a beautiful
story that, like, if you're paying attention and
it's kinda like people kinda, I would imagine,

(17:24):
associate this with their pets. Right? Like, they
pay enough attention to their
dog to know when there's something that they
want and, like, what's going on? And are
they hungry? Are they cranky? Are they, you
know, they wanna play? Whatever it is, like,
we need to do the same thing and
have the same honor
for every species that they are communicating,

(17:45):
and we just don't know how to speak
their language. But if we pay a lot
of attention, like, you're speaking shark language,
at least a little bit of it. How
awesome is that?
Yeah. A little bit. But I think this
is just like spending time in the water
with these creatures and not just with sharks,
but with any animal. Yeah. Yeah. Every animal
on this planet has a personality. I would

(18:05):
even go as far to say bugs and
spiders. Oh, absolutely. The little creatures, they also
but if you spend enough time, they would
have a different personality and you would understand
them. And I always find, like, with,
if I dive with a a new shark
species, sharks is this is a, like, a
I feel like a rogue thing to say,
but I do believe that sharks kinda remind
me of dog breeds. And, like, each shark

(18:28):
kind of is like a similar to a
different like a dog breed. Like, some are
kind of like the pit bull terriers and
some are like the labradors and some are
like the great danes and some are like
the chihuahuas and, like, very they just have
different personalities.
And, like, some sharks are more aggressive than
others. Like, the bull shark is just a
naturally more aggressive shark, kind of just, like,
you maybe get a little terrier or something,

(18:48):
they're a little bit more feisty. It's the
same thing. And if you it's the same
with dog behavior.
You know, you can like, it's not it's
not rocket science. It's science. You can see
when a dog does not wanna be pet.
And if you get it, they might bite
you. It's just it's gonna happen. And it's
the same with sharks and any other creature.
And I I really I love what you
said about energy. And I feel like even

(19:10):
in the water, if if you're calm, something
about diving, especially we'll we'll talk about sharks
in the situation. When you're diving with sharks,
it's really important to stay calm, and it's
all about your heart rate. So sharks are
the Which is incredible. Right? Like, let's recognize
the six six, seventh, and eighth, whatever senses
of sharks
that they actually know how fast your heart

(19:31):
is beating. They so go ahead. Because this
is just I love this. So go ahead.
Yeah. So it's no. It's it's so important.
If you're
excited, like it's hard because I get excited.
But most of the time when I'm in
the water with sharks, some of the most
calming experiences
I've ever had in the water is with
a shark. And I don't know whether it's
something to do with this overwhelming sense of

(19:53):
I don't know. Like, life is out of
my hands kind of thing. Like, I'm in
this this presence of this incredible Apex predator.
If they wanted to, they could. They're deciding
not to. And I feel like in that
moment, you've got to be incredibly mindful.
I'm very much a, I I very much
don't agree with touching wildlife.

(20:13):
There is you can redirect sharks sometimes if
they're getting a little bit too close. Right.
And you're supposed to hit their nose. Right?
Like to You sort of point it downwards.
And I've done it a few times, but
I feel like you should only do that
if it's very, very necessary.
But, keeping, like, a good little bit of
distance. But, yeah, just
sharks are amazing. And this is something that
when this first ever shark encounter I've had
with the fresher shark,

(20:35):
that day I had really blocked sinuses so
I couldn't dive. And the the cleaning station's
up 30 meters, so quite far down. And
I just I just couldn't do it. And
I remember getting in the water, but I
very much like, I have a very strong
gut feeling and very much like, I don't
know, My my partner always thinks I'm a
little bit of a witch. Like, I always
seem to predict the future. But I remember
that day, I was so Never say never.

(20:56):
Like, we we make assumptions that we know
that, you know, what what our six and
seventh and eighth senses are, like, no reason
to say you can't. Like, why not assume?
And at that day, I remember I just
had this really strong feeling that I needed
to be in the water.
And I remember going down. I remember that
the the dive master I was with was
like, we're not really like, because you really
can't dive today. Like, we should really cool

(21:16):
it quits. And I was like, nope. We're
going in. So I remember we went in
and I was stuck at five meters for,
like, ten minutes. I just couldn't equalize, which
is
an annoying thing that happens sometimes.
But you were still under there. I was
still under there. I remember because I was
just looking into the dive master's eyes. I
was still quite new to diving, so I
think I I still was a little bit
nervous. And I remember he was holding on

(21:38):
to me, and he was doing, like, we're
gonna breathe slowly because I was just trying
to eat clothes. But because I was suddenly
incredibly calm,
very little bubbles, this is the thing with
sharks, they don't like a lot of bubbles
as well. They're quite they're scaredy cats, most
of them. And so little bubbles. And I
remember at the corner of my eye just
seeing this flash of silver and,
the dive master was like, and then he

(21:59):
pointed and then I saw this thresher shark.
She came so close. I could have reached
out and touched her. That's how close she
got. And I remember just looking literally the
the eyes that were like this big. And
I just remember it was my first ever
time, like, I guess, having a connection. I
wouldn't like, at the end of the day,
it's a shark. I don't wanna say I
had a spiritual connection, but I had, like,
on a personal level, I had this Yeah.

(22:20):
With the shark, and I it was my
first time looking into the eyes of a
shark. And I realized that she had come
to to out of curiosity,
this intelligence to come check us out. She
we're like, we are not food. They eat
tiny little sardines. Like, we're not food at
all. And also, they don't come up to
five meters. They they're they're deep sea sharks.
So it was a very bizarre, like, why

(22:41):
is it so shallow?
And, yes, so she circled us for, like,
thirty, sixty seconds, and then she swam off.
And their tails are so long when they
swim away, it kinda looks like a snake.
It's it's so beautiful.
And I remember I was like, cool. We
can end the dive to see more sharks.
Yeah. Right. I'm done. That that was why
I'm here.
And I remember just, like, ending that dive,
and it it completely changed my life. I

(23:02):
was like, oh my god. I just shared
the water with this huge shark
who was intelligent, inquisitive,
beautiful.
I felt so calm, and it kind of
just completely changed the game for me. And
then after that, I was like, these are
misunderstood creatures. I completely perceived them wrong. And
then it kind of, yeah, I guess that
was the spark. I think every journey, there's
that little, like, ignition, and that, for me,

(23:22):
was the ignition. So now I'm completely obsessed
and have dived with massive six meter tiger
sharks solo and done some really awesome stuff,
had some really amazing experiences with sharks here
in The UK.
And I'm a massive advocate for trying to
get people to see them from in a
different light, in a different perspective.
There's so misunderstood and at the end of
the day, we need sharks

(23:43):
in our oceans to balance the ecosystem. You
know, every second breath that we take comes
from the ocean, and we need sharks to
keep our oceans healthy. So it it's when
I say protect sharks, I'm really saying we're
protecting ourselves. You know? They are so important
for life on this planet, and I don't
think a lot of people know that.
No. I don't think a lot of people

(24:04):
believe know or believe that at all, that
sharks are the enemy because they've been made
the enemy. Right? I mean, before Jaws, but
Jaws really damaged even those who didn't think
about sharks
to just hate sharks. And we need to
redefine. And it's so interesting, like, you the
200 Shark Project that you do that you're
doing,
the my other big interview one of my

(24:24):
other big interviews around sharks for this whole
Shark Week season is with David Ebert, who's
the rare shark guy. He,
you know, is in the same wavelength as
as you that we need to bring attention
to sharks and we need to save the
species that we don't know about because just
because we don't know about them doesn't mean
that they aren't incredibly important to the ecosystems
that are keeping

(24:45):
our oceans healthy and or fighting to keep
our oceans healthy. Right?
And the 200 sharks, I would it it
seems like only a handful of them
are even scary if you're in a hyper
anxious mood when you're under there with them.
Like, the number that I I and I
only got to, like, maybe 10 or 15

(25:06):
of them that you've been exploring and that
you're sharing. But, like, you know,
most most or all of them were just
kind, gentle, doing their own thing, not in
any way interested in us. So sharks in
general aren't interested in us. We're just in
their way, in their space, and that's the
only reason they would ever interact. Right? Or
is there, like, something like 67

(25:27):
I don't remember the word. Not intentional, but
something like intentional,
unprovoked
shark attacks in in each year. Right? Like,
it's incredible. The numbers are insignificant, like, literally
instantaneous. More likely to die from a falling
coconut or a cow.
Actually dogs kill more sharks and more heat
more sharks. Dogs kill more than sharks every

(25:49):
year as well. And I, you know, we
love dogs, you know, it's just because they,
they, I always, I have this sort of
like little funny quote that I say, like,
if sharks had eyebrows, would you care? Because
with with dogs and with mammals, they have
these these moving bits of muscle above their
eye that allow them to
show some type of emotion. When it comes
to fish, they don't have that. They just
look cool like there's just no emotion whatsoever.

(26:11):
So they could be in intense pain or
intense happiness, and you have absolutely no idea.
Oh my goodness. We don't speak their language
yet, maybe. Right? Like and you said that
you're actually starting to. Like, you can see
where your skins are and where whether they're
moving at you or moving away from you
or swimming around you, like, all of it
is part of their language. Right? We just
don't speak it.
Exactly. And it's just we need to learn.
I mean, even, like, you can learn the

(26:33):
body languages of certain sharks, but even then
we'll never fully know
their language and how they communicate. And it's
so important for us to I don't know.
Like, there was a really good campaign by
WWF that I loved, and they put, like,
on tuners, like, masks of, like, fluffy creatures.
And that's why I feel like if, you
know, if they were these fluffy cute creatures,

(26:53):
maybe we would care. If they were the
panda, if they were the tiger, maybe we
would care about them. But, no, it's this
this scary thing that lives underwater, this place
that, you know, I was once incredibly scared
of. It's out of sight, out of mind.
We don't spend our time underwater, obviously, because
we need to breathe. We spend our time
on land. And so it is this thick
very much in the distance. And I know

(27:14):
that, like, a lot of people are not
gonna be,
doing what I do, which is getting yourself
underwater.
And so as the storyteller, it's like, how
can I then bring the ocean to your
the screens on your phone or your living
room or whatever it is without getting your
feet wet so you can have that emotional
connection? And with the 200 sharks project,
it's sort of, like, been an ongoing project

(27:35):
for quite a few years. But last year,
I sort of made a bit of a
turn with it, and I kind of tried
I thought, let's turn this into a social
media campaign as everyone's on social media, and
it's a beautiful place to connect. And, you
know, people I don't know how many hours
people waste
off their network on their phone.
So why not? I didn't think it was
a waste, though. I have to tell you.
Like, I spent a couple hours, like, digging

(27:55):
through each of these stories, and it was
so not a waste. So the the time
we waste is questionable whether we're wasting it.
So Well, I was more thinking, like, you
know, if people are already on that screen,
bring that education, that, you know, inspiration. So
it's not Totally.
Yeah. Spend your time wisely. Go on to
Francesca's page instead.

(28:16):
Thank you. But,
yeah. So with the 200 sharks project, so
as I said earlier, a 100,000,000,000 sharks are
killed every year for, things like their fins,
their meat, their skin, their oil, their teeth,
that type of stuff,
which is horrendous, but that kind of roughly
is about 11,000
every hour, which is about 200 every minute.
You know, 100,000,000
is an unfathomable amount, you know, to even

(28:38):
no one can envision that. Even 11,000 is
a is a huge amount. 200 felt felt
manageable, felt like this thing that you could
picture, you could see. And so, And a
minute is some a sort of a time
frame that you can grasp. Yes. Yes. Exactly.
It's like a, you know yeah. It's that
that all of that. And so,

(28:59):
I wanted to use my creative skills to
communicate and highlight and shine a spotlight
on,
lots of different types of chondrichthyes, which is
sharks, rays, skates, and micromerias. The reason why
I've called it 200 sharks just because it
has a bit more of a ring than
the chondrichthyes.
Just a scientific,
term

(29:19):
for a sort of group of, animals.
They're all cartilage based, right, that are not
bony. They're all cut yes. So they were
kind of at the same sort of, family
tree.
And they're just amazing. Like, I mean, even
people people don't really understand that a shark
and a ray are related.
Ray is kind of like a flattened shark.
And so, yeah, I'm creating these pieces of

(29:40):
digital art. I was originally started with these
big paintings, but it was taking me like
three months to a painting and my partner
joked. He's like, this is gonna take the
rest of your life.
And I was like, oh, yeah. I don't
have that time. And then I was thinking,
you know, sharks don't have that time. And
so I switched digital illustration so I can
create an illustration in a couple of days.
And I was like, okay. This feels a
lot more like I'm actually creating an impact.

(30:03):
So I create this sort of digital illustration,
and it's that creature within their environment. And
I try and highlight, like, a behavior,
food, environment, something about that creature. And something
that I I really love about sort of
studying and learning about these, the Chondrichs, these
this family of animals is I love learning
about their body behavior, their, like, their languages,

(30:25):
their relationships with other creatures, their symbiotic relationships
that happen underwater, which I just find
fascinating. Crazy, right? Awesome. Just like the cleaning
station,
for example,
I've seen this in real life, scalloped hammerheads.
They will flash their body,
chest to the cleaning station

(30:45):
and you kinda get this really big flash
of silver. And then suddenly out of nowhere,
all of these fish come and surround the
sharks. So the sharks literally communicated to the
fish. Yeah. They're hungry to be cleaned. And
then a little wiggle when it does like,
it's like, I'm done. You can stop cleaning
me now. And then the fish, they're like,
okay, we're done. And then they'll go. And
they'll always be like that one that takes
a little bit more of a bite and

(31:06):
then the shark's like, yeah, go away. Yeah.
But, it's amazing.
Yeah, it's amazing. It's an amazing story. Yeah.
Yeah, it's amazing. And so I'm creating sort
of an illustration,
a fact file online
and then social media videos. So I do
like a fact file. I try to make
it
fun and interesting and,
make it educational. And artistic. So you've got

(31:27):
you know, there's a real joy in the
art of what you've created because you're showing
how you create the art itself and the
movement of the species. Like, it's a really
beautiful
short videos that you've I mean, they're just
magnificent. So go to Instagram, I think, or
to Francesca's website and explore
this world of 200 sharks plus all the

(31:47):
other stuff. And by the way, I have
to tout, and I'm so excited to order,
the the shop that you right? With your
art, like, there's art, you know, that you
can put on the wall and all that,
but there's this awesome whole spread of swimwear
that has and we have to talk about
whale sharks. But, like, there's all this I
gotta wear wear whale shark clothes and and,

(32:09):
you call them, they call them rash guards,
but I call them sun protection shirts and
all that. So anyway, go to Francesca's
Francesca page, art.com, I think, is your, website.
And Yeah. Thank you. I mean, like,
back in COVID, my I had a vision
of, I wanna wear my knot.
And so, you know, I had a bit
of time on my hands like we all
did in COVID.

(32:30):
And, yes, so that's where I started sort
of, like, my brand and put my work
on, like, freediving fins and swimwear and T
shirts and stuff. And it's great. Fins are
so beautiful. Like Thank you. The picture of
you with, like, the big fins with that
are moving like the ocean. Oh my god.
It's beautiful. Anyway Thank you. Yeah. I always
get compliments of what I'm out, which is,
lovely.
I'm always like, yeah. I did it. But,

(32:51):
thank you. I appreciate that.
So so I have to switch over to
I have to, like, take you to whale
sharks because they are seem to be a
big
part of your both the 200 and just
something and, if I have it right, you
spent a season in Ningaloo,
reef in Western Australia, which is one of
the places that the whale sharks go for

(33:11):
these feeding frenzies and that they know to
go to. And,
David Ebert talked a little bit about whale
sharks, like and I decided this was my
favorite shark.
It is so not scary. It is ridiculous,
even though it is the largest fish in
the sea. Just think about that. Like, it
is the largest
non mammal
in the sea, and I think on land

(33:32):
also, like, the little the largest one in
existence, the non mammal in existence,
and it is the most
unfair
oriented
person. Like, it is a filter feeder. It's
eating tiny little things. It is not eating
you.
Yeah. I mean, yeah, really the smallest Beautiful.
Smallest creature for me. Beautiful. So Yeah. Tell

(33:53):
us. Yeah. So I worked the season on
the Ningaloo. I unfortunately
did not see a whale shark. No. I
know. Because it wasn't that the right time
of year when they came? It was the
right time of year, but due to climate
change,
that were like something that I guess happens
every year now.
There was something that happened with the water.
It was too I think it was too
warm. I think that was what happened.

(34:14):
And so they didn't come. So I where
I was was in Coral Bay. So Ex
Mouth is up the coast and there was
a huge amount of whale sharks there because
there was something weird with the currents.
Yeah. Yeah. So there was loads there, but
it was none where I was. But I
was working with a manta ray, so I
was meant to be on the whale shark
boats.
But I was gutted. But I was like,

(34:34):
you know what? I still get to see
manta rays every day. Manta rays are pretty
darn awesome. And they're enormous.
They have one of the biggest
brain to body ratios in the ocean. They
are highly intelligent, and I think I was
privileged enough to
share the water with manta rays pretty much
every day.
Give or take some days nature just
doesn't work.

(34:56):
But most days with manta rays And I
was able to experience those resident manta rays.
So
we're talking about personality
is when you sort of dive in the
dive with these creatures every day and get
to know, oh, it's fatty or it's whoever
it is today.
If you name them, they become individuals with
sentience and personality and

(35:18):
community. Yeah. And like, it was just, yeah,
just an amazing experience. And one of, like,
my the highlights of being there,
is,
when the coral spawned,
it smells terrible, by the way, when the
coral is beautiful. It's this beautiful pink, like,
how would how would you describe it? Like,
a layer that's on water, but it smells
like rotting fish.

(35:39):
Wow. So it's You know what? I I
know what coral's fine, but can you and
I know why the world sharks go there
together. But can you just give us a
quick explanation of, like, what is going because
it's another incredibly magical moment
that happens in the oceans that
you most people have never and I've never
had a chance to interact with personally. So
it's just sort of this far off story

(35:59):
even if you know this story. So tell
us, you know, what this story is with
it and what it's like to be part
of that story.
Yeah. So every year, the coral spawns, which
is like, that they make babies. And you
get male and female, and they release their
eggs. And,
yeah, they they kind of spread with the
ocean currents, and hopefully, the egg will drop
down onto a piece of sediment or rock

(36:20):
and
produce a little baby coral, which is amazing.
And it happens I can't remember whether it's,
like, three days before or three days after
a full moon or something, but it's it
happens in this very short tiny window. I
missed it. But I I feel like you
have to be there, like, every hour of
the day,
to try and capture it. But one day,
that's one of my, like, goals is I
would love to experience a coral spawning event.

(36:42):
And so for about a week afterwards, sort
of the ocean is littered with this bright
pink,
like, all, it looks like porostining
balls,
and it smells really bad. It smells like
rotting fish. And And you've gotta make sure
you wear your earplugs because you can get
really bad ear infections if it goes in.
But this causes a lot of life to
happen. So from the coral spawning, obviously, a

(37:02):
lot of it gets eaten, which is amazing
for the ecosystem. And then you'll get, like,
the crab spawning. So it kind of, like,
sort of ignites this whole different, like, this
explosion of life and birth at the same
time. And the manta rays come to not
eat the coral spawns. They eat the creatures
that eat the coral spawn. Makes sense. It's
always, like, a week afterwards, and then they'll
get this abundance of manta rays. And I

(37:23):
remember it was about a week or so
after the coral spawning event,
and we were on the outer reef. So
the Ningaloo, if people don't know, it's this
incredible
stretch of coastline,
and coral reef. It's like the Great Barrier
Reef, but on the other side of Australia.
And you have, like, an inner and outer
reef. I prefer the outer reef just because
I love, like, deep blue wild ocean. And

(37:44):
when you get to the outer reef, like,
you just never know what you're gonna see.
You could see a bait ball. You could
see tiger sharks. You could see whatever it
is. There's more room, so it's bigger stuff,
right? It's the emotion. Yeah. It's bigger, crazier
stuff, and it's small action, and I love
the adrenaline of it. And I remember we
went out there, and it must have been,
like, 50 manta rays, all barrel rolling and
feeding, and just having the time of their
life. And I was, working as a photographer.

(38:06):
And so the privilege of being a photographer
on the Ningaloo is that you're always the
first and last out of the water, which
for me is like everything because I'm always
the last out of the water.
And,
yes, you get in and you have to
find the manta ray. Usually, the skipper will
tell you roughly where the manta is. You
get in, you hopefully find the manta. Sometimes
it's pretty hard to find the manta, especially

(38:27):
because Which is kinda crazy because they're so
big, but the ocean's pretty darn big. Right?
Like They're pretty big, and they they're very
they're very fast. They're much faster than you
can ever swim. So,
yeah. And then you find the manta ray
Well, they flap those enormous
wings. Right? So that they can move really
fast.
They're just incredible. And I think,
I mean, I was working on a tourist
boat, so then you'd get a group of,

(38:48):
like, six come in, and then they would
have their little experiment experience with the mountains,
and they'll go back on the boat. But
I would always stay in the water. And,
like, some of the most incredible experiences I
had, and I feel privileged to say this,
is when it was one on one. So
it was just me in the water.
Office. When I had that, it was amazing
kind of experiencing that. So, you know, just
be me with said manta ray. And I
remember having, like, eye contact with a few

(39:11):
visitors and they would come up to me
and they would actively seek.
They're curious. They wanna they wanna play with
me or they wanna do something. I don't
know. And, like, it's rare. It's a really
cool experience. And so it has these amazing
moments of one on one, very close interactions,
always try to be really mindful and respectful
of their space. If They don't wanna be
interacted with. I'm very, very good with ending

(39:32):
that dive.
And then, you know, you get the guests
jump in. And what does the manta do?
It dives down. It dives down to ten,
twenty meters, and you do see the manta
stuff, the visibility is good, And then the
guests get back on the boat, and guess
what? The manta ray comes back up again.
And it's something that I expose because I
would take photos and the guests would see
the photos and be like, wow, you got
so close. And I'm like, yeah, I just

(39:53):
yeah. It felt felt very lucky. It's really
thought provoking, right? Like, just about trust, right?
And about sharing, like,
there's there's
this depth of trust that is needed
between species.
So, I mean, you know, I'm sure manta
rays have a fear of a certain species,
probably great whites and orcas who might eat
them.
And otherwise, you know, it's about who's in

(40:15):
power
and who they've had a positive experience with
or a scary experience with. And there's this
big brain, right, that's processing
the same kind of stuff we are. What
are we afraid of? Who's behaving in a
certain way? What are they communicating?
And when the guests left
that energy and took it out,
the stress and the movement and the quick

(40:36):
stuff and the
just discomfort of where they were, right, and
left you in there with this calm,
just trust
changed everything for them. And they knew you.
Like, just to put that whole story together,
because it sounds like it happened over and
over again. Right? You're you're taking all these
guests out on these boats, and every day,
you're having this experience that is completely different

(40:57):
from them because you're coming in with a
completely different mindset.
Yeah. I feel like it's that it's the
connection and that energy as well. I mean,
I've actually jumped in the water, and I'll
say this now, but at the time, I
I I guess I I lied. I said
there was no manta ray. But I remember
jumping in the water once and seeing
this baby manta's juvenile manta ray. And I

(41:18):
and the way it was in it was
not very good visibility. It was quite quite
bad vis.
So when it was bad vis, we'd always
call the man to shadow because she sees,
like, black. But I I remember seeing this
juvenile, and the way it was it behaving
was very skittish, and it kept showing me
its belly. So it was trying to look
at me and check me out and size
me up and be like, what it what
it and I had this feeling. I was

(41:38):
like, I feel like I potentially might be
the first human it's ever experienced, you know,
because it was very young. I hadn't really
its spots hadn't really been recorded on the
database before. And I took, in that moment,
I went against, I guess, what probably the
skipper wanted and the boat wanted, and I
said I didn't see the manta ray just
because in that moment, I I I just
was, I don't want this this manta ray

(42:00):
to have a bad experience, you know?
Wow. Scarce jump in the water, and it's
all panic splashing.
It could potentially scare that manta ray off.
And I could just also tell that it
wasn't it it barely interacted with me, so
therefore, it's gonna swim away, and it's a
waste of the guest's time. We might as
well go try find another one that's a
bit more interactive. I'm really
passionate about respectful interactions

(42:22):
with wildlife in general,
and very much like I will happily not
take any photos and put my camera down
if I feel that this animal is having
a bad experience, does not want its photo
taken. Just like humans, some humans don't want
their photo taken, don't take their photo. It's
the same with animals. I feel like I
was thinking, like, I felt social media is
littered with videos and images of certain types

(42:43):
of marine creatures. And I I feel like
you can tell in that in that image
just when you have that sort of experience
and potentially didn't want that photo taken. And
I'm I don't know. For me, I'm very,
like, hot on that, and I'm very happy
to call people out, especially in the water
if they're
mistreating. Like, for example, a turtle is quite
an easy one. If they show you their
shell, that's a sign that they're very distressed

(43:05):
and they really don't want you to be
around. It's something that they do to tiger
sharks and other sharks. So they'll make themselves
look bigger. So then this tiger shark doesn't
feel like they can take a chomp, if
that makes sense. Yeah. So if I say
I didn't know that, and that's so important.
Thank you. So important. If they show you
a shell, please leave them alone.
Like, if you distress an animal, for example,

(43:25):
whale sharks,
there's like, in the in The Maldives,
there's records of, people jumping in the water
with a whale shark. It's spooking that whale
shark, and that whale sharks come up to
get sunlight to feed, and they dive down
to depths and sometimes stay at depths for
a few days, which means they get malnourished.
And, yeah, basically, you by you, you know,

(43:45):
not understanding the body, like, the language, I
guess. And this is why it's really important
to educate people because, you know, there is
naivety. I am sure in the past, I've
gone into the water naive of potential body
and languages that have been presented at me.
So it's important to educate people, so then
hopefully people can have amazing interactions with marine
life, but also a respectful one. And it's

(44:06):
amazing if you're respectful to
said creature, they are respectful back. And honestly,
when you're in the water and they decide
to interact with you, that is such an
incredible experience.
Yeah. You've given them the sense of connection
that they want that they wanna explore. So
in terms of whale sharks, I'm actually really
curious because I was I I was reading
and watching some stuff about the trackers that

(44:27):
are now on many whale sharks because they're
they move so slowly
and they're so accessible when they're on the
coastlines looking for the food, although they go
spend most of their time deep in the
ocean. Been discovered that they do these these
up and down dives to save on energy
and move through the pelagic zone so that
they can find the food at the most

(44:47):
efficient way. And the idea of stay and
and I didn't say anything about staying down
for that long. And it's so interesting. So
they were able to track that when a
whale shark was afraid,
it stayed down longer. That's so important. Like,
we need that kind of data point. Right?
100. 100%. I feel like,
you know, for the sake of a selfie

(45:08):
with that shark and that's not to say
that everyone is doing that, but I do
see more and more, you know, people Yeah.
Trying to get that that photo for social
media. And, yeah, I feel like you have
to put the the respect of the creature
above any type of photo or video. I
mean, that's just my ethics and morals.
But, you know, it's it's so it's so
important, and that's where science can play such

(45:30):
a huge role in communicating that type of
language, right, you know, that we're talking about.
And, you know, knowing that they like, this
particular whale shark did do that, that's something
that is so super important for us to
know. And then hopefully, we can educate others
and allow people to understand that, you know,
maybe the way we approach these types of
creatures in a more meaningful, mindful, calm way,

(45:50):
and actually sometimes
not getting in the water with
the creature even though you've paid for that,
that boat excursion to ride with said creature.
If we don't like, there's been times where
I've been on a boat and
the animal's in the water, and I'm like,
let's get in. And then, you know, they're
like, oh, yeah. Body language doesn't look good.
I think we'll leave this one. I'm like,

(46:11):
cool. Let's leave it. Like, because actually, end
of the day, it's not gonna be fun
for the creature and keep the creature at
harm. It could perhaps at harm, especially if
you look where they pitch predators.
Fortunately, if a shark gets annoyed,
a nibble is is half a leg. So,
you know, you've gotta be respectful.
Yeah. I love the story, though, like, just
in in connecting to what you were just
saying to the baby ray, the baby manta,

(46:32):
that you wanted this baby to have a
positive experience with humans.
You know, you then, you know, went on
to what maybe,
other things were in play, but, like, I
am gonna grab on to that story and
and and just embrace that
you wanted this connection.
And because you had had a tough connection,
like, when you were a child,

(46:53):
so, like, one bad moment
can set you off on and the same
with my son. Like, one bad moment can
can change everything about the fear in your
brain, right, and build into this bigger story
and this bigger fear and to, like, create
this beautiful dynamic with this baby that nobody
had met before
and to for you to offer this, like,
beautiful interaction about humans as a positive part

(47:17):
of their world
is just so spectacular.
Okay. So I have learned so much from
you in just the short time I've been
studying you and your work. And there's a
few things that I learned that I wish
I'd figured out before I wrote my episode
about whale sharks and recorded it. So there's
a couple of things I gotta ask you
because so have you swam with whale sharks?
Yes. Just not okay. So

(47:39):
the because you've done this incredible artwork around
them. I need to hear about the teeth
in the eyes because that's the first time
I've heard of that. Tell me about
this is so cool. Like I see this
project,
because with each each creature, I'm I do
research and try and, like, learn more facts
about it. And I'm learning, and I'm like
someone who's, like, a shark nerd. Yeah. I'm

(47:59):
learning more facts. I'm like, well well, if
if if I didn't know, then no one's
gonna know this one. But, yeah, they got
shark. They got shark. They've got teeth in
their eyeballs,
and I think it's something to do with
protection. So if they were to get attacked
by another shark, that's, you know, hopefully, it
can protect their eyes.
Because sharks They don't really have any other
protection. Right? Like, they don't? They don't. Well,

(48:21):
sharks, I love them, but they also have
the smallest brain in the body in the
ocean.
Okay. But they have the biggest body, so
that's they still don't have the smallest brain.
But like, I guess they're kind of like
a golden retriever. You know, everyone loves them,
but sometimes they're not the smartest dog in
the room.
But we all love them.
And, yeah, that's how I kind of imagine
a a whale shark.

(48:43):
They are beautiful, though. They are just incredible.
And, yeah, sharks have, I've forgotten the I
I can't say it. I'm always I always
Oh, the pronounced it wrong, but they they're
covered in
basically, skin is covered in shark's teeth, like
tiny little shark's teeth. I can't Dense rights
or dentureals. I always pronounce it wrong. Mhmm.
And I'll know that someone will listen and

(49:03):
hate me for it. Oh, totally. Me too.
So, but it's amazing their skin. I mean,
they used to use their shark, but people
used to use sharkskin as sandpaper
because it's it's
so rough. But only in one direction, which
is so interesting. Right? Because their teeth, they're
shaped. Yeah. Yeah. They have very, very tough
skin. And actually, female sharks have thicker skin

(49:23):
than male sharks,
which I kind of love. But also, it's
it's to do with when they mate.
Mating in shark world is very vicious. It
involves a lot of biting. So a male
will bite onto one of her fins.
And sometimes
there's
quite a few sharks trying to do it
at the same time. So so female sharks
have have evolved to have a lot a

(49:44):
lot thicker skin literally because they need to
have a thicker skin
to endure that mating,
which is kind of crazy, but amazing at
the same time. So my whole episode this
is so interesting because my whole episode about
whale sharks that is gonna come out next
week is about the resilience of their thick
skin. And I actually did not know that
about why they have thick skin also. They

(50:05):
have other reasons that they have thick skin,
and we use that metaphor of thick skin,
which has sort of some positive and some
negative connotations that, like, you know, we don't
let anything bother us. But should we actually
be learning from some of what And, you
know, the fact that some stuff does penetrate
that four inch thick skin, which is the
thickest skin, largest fish, thickest skin. Like, this

(50:26):
is a really cool animal, right? That the
thick skin has so many
layers to it of what purpose it serves.
And the fact that the females have thicker
skin than the males, really a statement that
we can connect to as humans, right, in
terms of that metaphor, like what women go
through versus not that men don't have challenges
and and and reasons to have to stand

(50:46):
up to and have thick skin. But there's
there's just so much fun that we could
play with around the thick skin of a
female, protecting themselves from the males and all
that.
Yeah. This is something that when I found
out learned that fact, I had the same
kind of
thoughts. It's pretty wild. I mean, interestingly,
the whale shark has this all the teeth
that are in the whale shark's mouth are

(51:07):
vestigial. Like, there there's a history of millions
and millions of years to
the adaptations that the whale shark has undergone.
And it's so interesting because I don't think
unless you would be the one to know.
Do you know why or how their life
used to be? That it used to have
teeth that were served a different purpose? Or
maybe they serve a purpose and we just
don't know. Actually, I don't know. I'd have

(51:28):
to get past you on that one. That's
something I'm like, I'm gonna research. I mean,
the evolution. Of course, yeah.
It's amazing. They've been
around on our planet for like four fifty
million years. They are older than dinosaurs. They
were older than trees.
Sharks
are incredible. So when you experience a shark
in the ocean, you are experiencing
a living, breathing dinosaur and the evolutionary

(51:51):
masterpiece.
You know? They they've spent millions of years
to become
the ultimate apex predator or
the ultimate sort of top of the food
chain in the ocean. And so when you
experience, like, for example, that you have, like,
a wobbegong, which they have these I don't
know if you know what wobbegong is, but
they're, like, they're they're called carpet sharks.
And they usually have camo, like, sand camo,

(52:13):
I guess. Mhmm. That's a really incredible mark.
Because they hang out in the sand like
no sharks. They do. And they have, like,
so you get lots of different types, but,
like, the the tasseled wobbegong. They look like
they have, like, a little beard. And what
they do is they use their tail and
they flip it behind them, and they kind
of let it sway in the ocean to
mimic another fish. Wow.
Now just sit there for hours just sitting

(52:34):
there being patient and waiting until a particular
fish that they wanna eat comes along because
then they hide under coral and and under
rocks and stuff.
So they try and make it feel like
a safe pit. Because, like, there's another fish
there, so the other fish might be like,
oh, okay. There's another fish there. I'll go
into the the crevice, which is a safe
place for me to be. I'm not gonna
get you Not so much. It's a mouth

(52:55):
of a shark. And then, you know, this
pre gong, they they yeah. They'll go up
and they'll they'll suck their prey into their
mouth. And it's just like, woah, they did
that. That's a really amazing,
incredible
adaptation that's happened.
And I mean, for me, I'm in awe
every time I see not just sharks, but
anything in the ocean, anything in wildlife.

(53:16):
I'm like, wow, mother nature did that. Like,
you know, no one told anyone to do
that. And you just went and created this
incredible piece of art, this incredible piece of
engineering. You know, I think
nature is And it keeps adapting.
Yes. Like, it it learns and it changes.
And some of these adaptations are happening really
fast, like, to deal with changing
temperatures of water and and what they eat.

(53:39):
Like, you know, polar bears are ineffectively
eating,
fruit from trees because they're starving, because they
can't get the c I you know, there's
just such there's some that are super rapid
super rapid adaptations, and there are some that
have taken millions of years
to get, you know, a little bit better
and a little better and a little better.
It's it's really incredible. This is this is

(54:00):
also, like, the problem that's happening with this
group of animals is that we are fishing
them to extinction. We've wiped out ninety percent
of all sharks on this planet already, only
in the space of, like, a hundred years.
And it's not getting any better, unfortunately,
which I do feel like most of the
time I I I talk to an echo
chamber, and I'm always wondering, like, how can
I get outside of the echo chamber? And,

(54:21):
you know, a lot of my friends, they
love sharks in the ocean. So, you know,
I I interact with these people. And then
now and again, I get out of that
bubble
and, you know, I talk to people and
they're like, oh, but aren't you scared? Or
what's what's bycatch, for example? And what's this?
And then I go, oh my god. Like,
my brother the other day, I created a
piece of art about bycatch. And
I showed you It's incredible. That's the first

(54:42):
piece of art I saw that that connected
me that picture of that seal, the baby
seal,
and a face Yeah. It's the emotion. That's
that that I'm very glad that that's in
a way the emotion that evokes me.
But he was like, what's bycatch? And I
was like, what the hell? You're my brother.
Like I know, right? Like, how do how
am I not communicating this well enough? Like,
how are you not paying attention? Well, I'm
maybe I'm a breaking record and I should

(55:04):
probably talk about this stuff, the bycatch better.
Okay. So if your brother didn't know what
bycatch is, it seems like we need to
tell people what bycatch is. Okay? And and
on the show notes, we will definitely have
that piece of art with the bycatch and
the seal and the whale shark and and
all the rest in it. But tell us
about bycatch and why it matters because it's
staggeringly important.

(55:24):
So bycatch is if there's fishing, there's bycatch.
Even if it's sustainable fishing. And that's not
me saying anything
bad towards the local fishermen, but unfortunately,
it's just just something that happens. So it's
when you unintentionally
catch another species
of fish outside of the targeted fish that
you are, you know, trying to fish. And
unfortunately, it happens

(55:45):
every single day, and it causes,
a lot of, you know, sharks and rays
and turtles and lots of different types of
marine creatures to be caught in its wake.
A project that I worked on a year
and a half ago that kind of changed
the game for me.
I've been working with bycatch for quite a
few years. I think being in the water
and experiencing it quite literally in your in

(56:05):
your face was something that very much was
a light bulb moment in in my brain.
I worked with an NGO in Northern Sumatra
called
Ladham, which is Indonesian for, togetherness for the
ocean. That was impressive. Okay. How my language
how my speak? I just speak a little
bit of Bahasa. Yeah.
They,
yes. So they work with local fishers in

(56:26):
this area in Northern Sumatra where they are
not catching they're not they're not targeting sharks,
but unfortunately,
they catch a large amount of critically endangered
sharks and rays, and they'll go sell them
in the market because, you know, they've got
to make a living. And so they work
with the local fishermen, and this NGO
is teaching them to and paying them to

(56:47):
release critically endangered sharks. So they're teaching them
to tag them and then release them, but
they have to do the big little GoPro
thing in order to receive that compensation. So
it's a really amazing,
initiative of, like, collaboration
over, working
with science, working with local fishes. But I
spent, a few weeks with them, which was
an amazing experience working with the fishes, going

(57:09):
out on the boats, experiencing them, hauling in
hundreds of meters of gill nets. And what
a gill net is, it's just a long
fishing net that goes on for hundreds and
hundreds of meters. Yeah. I mean, bottom trawling
is now a big
topic of conversation for ocean conservationists, and that's,
like, sort of the largest scheme in the
scheme of things. Right? Like Yes. The amount

(57:29):
of a bycatch that you're taking I mean,
actually, I've heard some hard per hard percentages.
Like, what you're actually looking for
is what it what percentage of what you're
actually getting in that net?
Oh, it's it's pretty much like out of
10 I would say 10 creatures, one of
them will be the targeted. The rest will
be like, which is

(57:50):
outrageous amount. And
it's just like yeah. So they this the
gillnets lie at the bottom of the sea
floor. I mean, this is very, very small
scale, and it's actually classed as sustainable fishing,
which is what the who these fishes are.
It's the one or two men on a
boat, very small boat, and, yeah, every day
they haul in the catch. And they're also
complaining because they're saying, hey. We're not catching
the the Right. That we want. We keep

(58:12):
catching the other creatures,
but we don't want them. We'll go sell
them in the market, but we don't want
them. And in this particular area.
So that's when the scientists are coming, and
they're working with the fishes and realizing that
this is a shark and ray nursery that
they had no idea because all of the
creatures that they're all the sharks and rays
that they're catching are juveniles and babies. So
one of the creatures that they catch is

(58:33):
a smooth nosed wedge fish. You probably have
never heard of it because it's literally about
to go extinct, and, like, no one's ever
really seen it as a diver. Lots of
people, you see them in, in markets and
in nets, but to see it actually swimming
in in its natural habitat It's only seen
as bycatch. It's not seen I think pretty
much. Like, I don't really know where like,
I don't know that many other people have
seen a smooth nosed wedge fish. Not in

(58:55):
the net, but, there was one particular day,
and we're in the water. And with my
my partner is a filmmaker, so I work
I work with him a lot. And so
he was videoing it. I was capturing it
with with photography, and they captured this smooth
nose wedge fish. It was just an amazing
moment where this kind of I felt like
stars aligned, the fish kind of it moved
in a way, and it presented, and I
took this photo that went on to win

(59:17):
a few awards and also raise a lot
of awareness about this particular creature.
And then it was kind of amazing. So
the the the fishes
took the wedge fish out of the nets.
They tagged it. They logged it, and then
they released it, and it swam away happy,
healthy. And it was actually decent sized wedge
fish. It was sort of it was still
a juvenile, but it was it was more
towards the adult size. So that was a

(59:39):
really positive experience. But then we also experienced
baby tiny tiger sharks that were unfortunately dead
in the nets. Something that was positive about
the wedge fish is that, so some sharks
and rays don't need to move to breathe.
Most of them need to they need to
move so they have air well, water going
over their Yeah. Stops. And whilst with some

(01:00:01):
sharks and rays, they can just stay stationary
and move their mouth up and down to
pump that water. Right. You can see it
in their gills when their gills their their
gills move to as they move the water.
Yeah. Nurse sharks. It's it's awesome, but, actually,
this adaptation that these some of the creatures
have is with of benefit for if they
get caught in the net, they survive a
lot longer

(01:00:21):
than other sharks because they can sit there.
They won't they will survive a few days
longer. So yeah. And then they're what they're
doing so they're working with the fishes and
raising more funds so that they can change
their nets to kind of like a lobster
pot, which they're finding is they're not catching
any bycatch anymore. They're actually more catching targeted
fish. So it was a really beautiful

(01:00:42):
story of
how conservation
can sort of work.
But then it's also like this tiny little
story. Right. But we have to tell the
story. Like, the story has to be passed
on to every other local
community so they understand that there are options.
And and I gather in some of these
communities, you know, that
where fishermen,

(01:01:03):
the only only path to income that they
knew was fishing,
and that now ecotourism
is an option as well. So, like, come
and see this this nursery
for
ecotourists,
trips to come and see the nursery for
sharks and rays instead of
coming in and seeing and eating fish. Right?
That's that's true. Actually, this is something that,

(01:01:24):
Holly, who's sort of runs it, in Indonesia,
she's now exploring
ecotourism and how that can work. In Northern
Sumatra, it's not a place where tourists go.
It's not a very touristy place. It's very
local, raw Indonesia, which I this is something
I love about it over there. But she's
looking at exploring, like, how can we get
get people to like, it's gonna it's not

(01:01:44):
gonna be a luxurious tourism, but, like, how
can we get, like, the more adventurous people
to come come on these boats with these
fishes and experience,
the beautiful wildlife that's on our doorstep. So
we're going out my partner and I are
going back to Indonesia. This August, we're going
out for another shoot, but then on our
way back, we've got let's stop by Northern
Sumatra

(01:02:04):
and go back out with the the fishes
and see if we can, like, see what
we can find. Also,
it sounds really weird, but maybe I've just
got too hard, hard into shark conservation, but
I just wanna go back to the fishing
markets because I find it really interesting.
Yeah. What's being caught? I mean, that's what
David David Ebert said. He said he finds
the rare sharks in the market and the

(01:02:25):
the locals know what they have. If you
describe or show a picture or a drawing
of a rare shark, that's where you're gonna
find it. You're not gonna find it in
the in the ocean looking for it because
there's so few of them left.
Yeah. It's it's it's really sad. Like, I
think the project that I was working on
was with bycatch. So the fishes are not
targeting sharks, but they will sell them at

(01:02:46):
the market. Hence why they're compensating the the
fishes, which is an amazing scheme. And they're
also finding that because the fishers are
getting educated and because they're tagging, they're getting
Right. Because they're getting out alive so they
can actually pass on the learning. Right? That's
so cool. Right? Okay. And what is so
beautiful about this area of Indonesia is each

(01:03:06):
individual village has a Pangilim Balau, which means
commander of the sea.
And so it's ancestral knowledge that's passed through
generation
where this one person, their role is to
protect their patch of ocean. So every village
has a patch of ocean. And so they're
actually loving working with the scientists in conservation
because
they they're like, this is this is all

(01:03:27):
about what we're about. You know? By us
helping tag and release, we are protecting
that patch of ocean, and they aren't and
then through the educating of the importance of
sharks and rays and why we need to
have them in our oceans, they're now passing
that onto their children. So it's it's a
really fantastic story, and it's amazing. But then
on the flip side, going to the markets,

(01:03:47):
I also experienced this particular market and they
target sharks. So fishes will go out for
three week three weeks at a time, sometimes
a month
to
it's awful. I and I very much do
not point my finger at any fisher. This
is just a job for them, and sometimes
it's their only option, and they're born into
it. But, you know, they They don't know
that there are other options, and that's part
of it. Right? There aren't any options as

(01:04:09):
well. So it's like, how can we work
in a way that allows
other options
to happen? Because I mean, in this area
of Northern Sumatra, there's there's fishing, there's working
in palm oil or concrete, and they're all
terrible for the environment. I know. I'm actually
going there in March with,
Dan j Cox, who I had interviewed about

(01:04:30):
polar bears, who's a National Geographic photographer who
runs tours to places that he fell in
love with. And we're going to see the
orangutans and also to dive, I think, in
that area. So because it's not a popular
area,
it's off the beaten track a little bit.
I don't know how rugged it's gonna be,
but we'll see. But, like, I'm gonna I
gotta drop him a note and and tell
him about this conversation.
Oh, for sure. For sure. Honestly, it's such

(01:04:52):
a incredible, magical place there. And because it's
off the beaten track, the diving's amazing, and
it's wild, and there's so much life around.
I really I'm hoping maybe go see the
orangutans this year. We'll see if we've got
time. It's such a cool place. But, yeah,
it was it was interesting on the flip
side going to the markets and seeing I'll
never forget the what they don't speak Bahasa

(01:05:13):
there. They speak,
slightly different version of Indonesian, which we didn't
know. My partner and I didn't know. So
we turn up and we're like, oh, wow.
We have no communication. And so I'm, like,
trying to use, like, Google Translate to try
again. That was very broken English. So we
had some funny conversations, and I'll never forget
in the morning. We just spent the morning
on the boat on the gill nets, and
I saw the Wedge Fish. And it was

(01:05:34):
very emotional, but also happy that there was,
like, all the motions. And then when we
get back in the car and sorry. And
Ilhan, our sort of, guide for our time
there was like, do you want to go
see a shark mountain? And I was like,
what is a shark mountain? And I was
like, go on. Fine. Why not? I have
no idea where you're gonna take us, but
why not? We'll we'll go see a shark
mountain. And so I I kind of learned

(01:05:55):
just to go with it. And so we
were in the car for, like, three hours
driving down the coast, and I had no
idea where it was taking us. And but
I just knew it was obviously something to
do with sharks. And we get out and
immediately we're presented by just shark fins drying
in the sun. And I was like, oh
my god. I know where we are. Okay.
I understand where we are. And it was
a processing station. And as soon as you

(01:06:16):
get out of the car, you get this
very vivid smell of urine and
rotten fish because,
fun fact, sharks
urinate through their skin, which is something I
only learned last year, which I that was
an interesting fact. So this is this is
what a dead shark smells like. It smells
like urine and, rotten fish. And so I
was like, oh, okay. I know exactly where

(01:06:36):
we are. And so we went to the
market where they actually target sharks. And so
that morning, a haul had just come in.
So a boat had come in for three
weeks,
and it was a shark mountain. So quite
literally a mountain of fish. Lots of different
types of tiger sharks, scalloped hammerheads,
fresher shark,
everything, blue sharks, everything, mako sharks. And,

(01:06:57):
I spent time with the the fish the
the the the guys, and they were chopping
they're processing there was a processing station, so
they're processing the sharks. So they were removing
the skin. So I didn't know this, but
there's a shark,
leather trade.
Well, they said that with the whale sharks
specifically with their beautiful skin. Right? Yeah. And
I I didn't know this. And so and,

(01:07:18):
like, they were doing a lot with the
tiger sharks, obviously, because they have beautiful markings
as well. So they were processing. They take
the skins off, and then they'll put those
skins in this horrible blood bath where they
clean clean them. And then I guess that
will get shipped off to places like Hong
Kong and Singapore where they get processed and
turned into luxury goods like purses and hammocks.
That's something I learned that day. I had
no idea that shark leather was a thing.

(01:07:38):
They take the teeth out that can get
sold, put into jewelry. Obviously, you have the
shark fins, and there's different levels of grades
of different fins. So for example, the wedge
fish, which is known as sort of the
kingfish
of the shark of big sharks and rays,
their dorsal fin is one of the most
valuable fins in the international fin trade because
I didn't know this. So there's different grades

(01:07:59):
of fins. So some sharks, for example, the
fresher shark, isn't valuable at all. They're very
collagenous. And apparently, when they dry, they're they
think
a fin to be very flaky, almost like
noodles.
So some sharks, they're they're thicker, and so
they want the thinnest. And so wedge fish
are like the creme de creme. So they're
expensive.
And they're almost extinct because of it. Yes.

(01:08:20):
And so,
you have, like, the the cut this big
box full of fins, and they will kind
of, like, process differently. And then, obviously, they
sell the meats, in the local markets, which
is another form of protein and income
for a lot of the people in the
local area. Unfortunately, shark meat is not good
for you. Yes. It's got protein, but it's
also high in heavy metals because

(01:08:42):
They're eating everything other. Yeah. Exactly.
And so,
yeah, it's it was a very interesting
important to photograph what was happening and capture
what was happening. But I felt deep sadness
for the creatures. But, you know, I also
went and had tea and coffee with the
guys afterwards and,
Yeah. Because you can I mean, I talked
to my friend Ken about this huge humans?

(01:09:04):
And
all these safaris, and he was trying to
express that we need compassion for
the guardians,
the human like, it's a whole system, and
they're not doing it they're doing it to
survive. The humans are are also doing it
to survive in in this case, you know,
in these kinds of cases. And that you
can't hate the people
because that's as you said, that's all they

(01:09:25):
know. That may be the only way that
they can survive. And and
now that there's techniques to catch
in volume, why wouldn't they do it? Right?
They don't really have an option. They need
to survive. It's such a hard dynamic. So
good for you. I feel like we we
point it's easy to point the finger at
the bottom of the food chain or the
bottom of the ad. I'm always like, okay.

(01:09:46):
I feel like maybe in order to tackle
this one, it's a multibillion dollar business. So,
yeah, it's hard to go up against
a industry that makes just a vast amount
of money, But it's more tackling, I guess,
the consumers and educating and not putting fingers.
Because, no, I I really do believe humans
are not evil.
People like, we we're all got goodness within

(01:10:08):
us, and sometimes it's just naivety or lack
of education or not really understanding. Yeah.
But, yeah, I feel like it's that educating
of the consumer and making sure that people
understand what they're eating or where it's coming
from,
and understanding that if you support shark fin
soup, you are supporting,
this horrible Yeah. And pangolins. I mean, there's

(01:10:29):
just such a long history of
Oh, yeah. Animals that have been just totally
neglected
and extracted
with a without any concern and the assumption
that, you know, it's just like we eat
chicken breast. Right? I don't remember, but you
eat chicken breast because it doesn't look like
your food. Right? Like, ground up pangolin shells
or shark fin. Like, when it's turned into

(01:10:50):
food that doesn't look like where it came
from, we can completely,
completely be in denial
that there's any other side to this story
of these poor creatures that are being that
are suffering. A 100%. I mean, I just
learned the other day. I'm writing an article
with the Manta Trust, and I had no
idea that, manta ray gills.
So I knew that obviously they're harvested and

(01:11:12):
sometimes they're dried up and put into pills
or something. But I didn't realize that they're
also made into a soup, like shark fin
soup. And I've not yet, and I'm just
I'm like, I should I should have known
that, but I didn't. And then it's like,
hey. We need to educate people.
And
I I I just yeah. When you think
about the whole industry, I get very overwhelmed.
And that's why I think, like, working with

(01:11:33):
the the local engine NGO was it there's
so many there's so much beauty that is
happening. There's so many amazing conservation movements and
people in working in the field who are
doing amazing things.
And, like, something that I also sort of
acknowledged was the fishes that I was interacting
with and spending the weeks with, they don't
earn a lot of money either. You know?
It's it's really the guys that come in
with the clipboards and buy

(01:11:55):
said meats and fins and whatever it is,
and then they go sell it on. They're
you know, this is the middlemen that are
Yeah.
Higher up. You know? The these guys are
going out out on sea for three weeks,
risking their lives, also doing highly illegal stuff
as well. They don't wanna be doing this.
They wanna be at home with their family,
but they're doing this so they can send
their kids to school, that they can just
provide food. And they're, like, making absolute pennies

(01:12:18):
when you hit when I see, like, how
much money these guys are making.
Yeah. We treat other humans just as poorly
as we treat
other species in in our in our world.
We need to
have so much more empathy for not just
humans, but also,
creatures. I do believe that when it's not
just a shark conservation thing, but with wildlife

(01:12:39):
conservation in general, it's a humanitarian issue. And,
yeah, it's very much having that empathy, having
that
yeah, it's very much having that empathy, having
that compassion. Everyone in the system. Like, we
need to focus on the whole system, not
just data points
points of the system that we judge
and we
we make tiny changes in. Like, we need
to understand why the whole thing is working
the way it is. There will be nuances.

(01:12:59):
It's not black and white. It's Yeah. Multicolored,
and you can't point fingers, and that's something
that I'm learning. It's how holding that compassion.
It's Okay. So I have taken so much
of your time. You're so generous, and I'm
could go on with this for hours. But
I do just wanna
ask you to share some of the stuff
that you're doing and some of the like,
even just some of the things, like, to

(01:13:21):
bring to bring attention, now that we're gonna
try and bring more attention than you and
I are storytellers, to the Girls Who Click
and to
the Vital Impact's environmental photography mentorship, which are
two things I know that you've promoted that
you're involved in. And then what else are
you working on? Because,
there's just it seems like every day you're
probably starting some new amazing adventure and and

(01:13:42):
and beautiful, beautiful thing that you're doing. So
Thank you. I overwhelmed myself. I just love
art. I think it's taken me quite a
long time in my career to get to
that point where I really I'm a visual
artist because I just love
communicating the world through art, and there's so
many different mediums I like to dip my
toe into. But, yeah, the Girls at Click,

(01:14:02):
which is an amazing program I've been fortunate
to be a part of for two years.
It's this amazing group of
wildlife photographers and filmmakers from around the world
under 30.
And, yeah, I I just love being a
part of that program. And then the Vital
Impacts program,
I have my mentor, Brian Scarry, who's an
incredible National Geographic photographer. If you don't mind,

(01:14:22):
please go check him out. He is
insane and It'll all be in the show
notes. Yep. Yeah. He's a lovely
human as well.
But for the vital impacts, I'm, sort of,
working on a photo story, which is sort
of a long term project I've been working
on for about six months now, but I
think this is gonna be a couple of
years in the making. So it's actually really
close to home. It's a local story. So

(01:14:44):
I'm from the South Coast Of The UK
and there's a little stretch of coast that's
called the Solent, and it's an amazing biodiverse
region, but it's also heavily
polluted and used waterways. In The UK, there's
two massive ports. It generates a lot of
income for a lot of people, but there's
a lot of habitat loss, coastal squeeze, and
that type of thing. So there's four major

(01:15:05):
habitats that are being damaged. So we've lost
pretty much all native
oyster beds, seagrass meadows, the salt marshes, and
ground nesting birds have also been heavily impacted.
So there's this incredible program
called the Solent Seascape Project where they're rewilding
this massive stretch of coastline, which for me
is a very personal thing because I grew
up on this coastline. So it feels very

(01:15:26):
close to home and it's making me feel
more in love, I guess, with I've traveled
the world and I'm finding so much beauty
literally on my doorstep in mudflaps and,
seagrass meadows and that type of stuff. So
I'm documenting this incredible restoration. Wow. That's amazing.
You're telling the story. Yes. I'm yes. I'm
one of, I'm sure, lots of other incredible
storytellers because it's such a big program, but

(01:15:47):
I'm, at the moment, particularly focusing on on
seagrass. So I've kind of been following their
journey with Project Seagrass.
This weekend, I'm actually heading to the Isle
Of Wight where I'm gonna be going out
with the local community and photographing
locals collecting seeds from seagrass, where then they're
gonna be harvesting and then
replanting,
certain areas where they've completely lost that seagrass

(01:16:08):
meadow that was once thriving, and they're gonna
be replanting it next year. So, yeah, I'm
kind of following along on this,
very beautiful local story.
So that's something that I'm kind of keeping
me busy at home.
But in terms of, like, projects, I'm I've
always got something on the go.
Obviously, I've got the 200 sharks project, so
I've got many more have you done? How

(01:16:29):
many have you doing really? Five at the
moment.
And so, yeah, I've got lots more to
go. I love what you said before. You
said you had that your partner said
it's gonna take you a lifetime to do
this, and you turned it to, you know
what? I might have a lifetime, but the
sharks don't.
So yeah. Yeah. And it was like, well,
the sharks don't have that. So

(01:16:51):
how can I make as much impact as
possible? Because the whole point of this project
is to raise awareness
and quickly.
You know, we don't have I mean, the
project roughly is going to take four years
at my current rates.
I don't wanna put too much pressure on
it because life gets busy, but my current
Yeah. Yeah. Four years. I'm like, yeah. But
where are we gonna be in four years'
time? You know, in 2029,

(01:17:12):
that's near twenty two thousand and thirty, which
is apparently, we have this pledge to protect
30% of the ocean. It's just totally artificial
because it's not happening. So But I'm like,
how is that gonna happen? You know, we've
protected 8.6%
of like, 8.6%
of our oceans right now is protected.
And in those marine protected areas, a lot
of bottom trawling is still happening. I mean,
The UK is
fantastic at that. We have a lot of

(01:17:33):
marine protected areas. Guess what? We have bottom
trawling happening in every single one of them
from UNO. Apparently,
they're going to protect that. Whether that happens
or not, I don't know. I don't believe
the government until it's actually happening. But, yeah,
there's so much there's so much that we
need to fight for. But, yes, I have
my two in shorts project, and I've always

(01:17:53):
got something on the go. Well, I got
one more thing for you because I tell
stories with with
voice, and I'm so excited to turn because
I saw that you had an interaction with
somebody online about this, to turn these stories
into children's books and some other. So and
the part I can't that I have no
that I need incredible partner on is the
visual. So maybe you and I can take

(01:18:15):
because every one of these species that every
one of these creatures that you've mentioned so
far, you've brought up some incredible resilience
that something incredibly unique about each one of
them
that you have deeply connected with, clearly deeply
connected with who they are as unique, deeply
adapted creatures,
and that's where the resilience lesson comes from.

(01:18:36):
So I'm I'm gonna hound you, and we're
gonna gonna see if you can do this
with me. So I would love
to see.
Awesome. So famous last words coming you know,
that are gonna become famous from Francesca Page.
Like, what do you what do you got
for us that can just sort of wrap
this up and and and bring us into
this beautiful energy that we're you know, wrap

(01:18:57):
up this beautiful energy that you've created around
the love and
the respect and the awe and the joy
around connecting deeply to
to
our Yeah. Well, I think
I would encourage people, whoever's watching this,
you have a talent, you have a skill,
whether that is
through art or it's through we need lawyers,

(01:19:19):
we need mathematicians,
we need everyone in society. Everyone's got this
really important skill set that can be used
to protect our planet. Guess what? We need
lawyers in conservation. We need mathematicians.
Need we need everyone. We need the communicators.
We need everyone. If your skill's talking, then
then go and talk. Go and stand up
on stage and and get an audience together

(01:19:40):
and share that passion, share that wisdom. So
I would encourage you to find figure out
what it is that makes you tick your
passion and use that for good. Use that
to protect our beautiful planet.
I love it. I love it. What's your
superpower? Because everyone has one and passion that's
just pushing behind it.

(01:20:00):
So find find your space and and just
do it,
right? Thank you. Thank you so much, Franchesca.
It's such a joy to be in in
sharing space with you, and I cannot wait
to keep following your journey and and your
inspiration and and
the art that just lights me up and
everybody else. Check the show notes out. There's
gonna be tons of stuff there about you,
and we'll keep in conversation with Francesca. So

(01:20:22):
thank you. Thank you so much for having
me. It's awesome.
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai. Follow along with our
other BLI produced shows at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-bli.

(01:20:47):
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, @balancinglife'sissues.com.
And don't forget to stay in touch with
your host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
Anything else to add, Miles?

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Shark Week Part 2 - The Art of Saving the Oceans and Marine Life with Francesca Page (Episode 48)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Shark Week Part 2 - The Art of Saving the Oceans and Marine Life with Francesca Page (Episode 48)