In this episode of Resilience Gone Wild, Jessica Morgenthal speaks with Ruth Wilson, a lifelong advocate for nature-based education and author of Nature and Young Children. Together, they explore how connecting children with nature supports mental health, physical well-being, cognitive development, and spiritual growth. The conversation dives into the concept of nature deficit disorder—a term coined by Richard Louv—and why unstructured time in nature is essential for kids. Ruth shares personal insights on the power of outdoor play, sensory experiences, and reciprocal relationships with the natural world, encouraging families and educators to cultivate awe, joy, and belonging through nature connection.
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(00:04):
Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. I'm so happy to
be in in this beautiful space with Ruth
Wilson,
new mentor and hero of mine for the
work that that Ruth spent a lifetime I'm
sure a lifetime of other things. I think
it's been about three decades that she's been
working deeply in the field of children and
nature specifically. It might be a longer lifetime
(00:24):
and we're gonna get to hear about it
and incredibly beautiful influences and and influence that
that you've had on this world of fighting
against Richard Louv's nature deficiency
and and
creating nature connection in children and families. And
anyway, I'm so excited about this topic of
conversation. So welcome, Ruth. Tell us a little
bit about yourself, and let's let's just have
(00:46):
this beautiful, joyful conversation.
Hello, Jessica
and everyone else. Yes. I am Ruth
Wilson. I've been a teacher
and a teacher educator most of my life,
but I think what gives me the greatest
joy and perhaps
the most influence is in terms of my
(01:09):
writing.
I've always wanted to be a writer and
always wanted to have something to write about.
So once I discovered the world of nature
and the idea of connecting nature
and children, I go, that's it. That is
my path.
So I started out when I used to
be young.
(01:30):
I did have my own preschool program, and
I just kind of went about winging it
in terms of, okay, what do we do
with a group of 25 preschool children?
And I found out by following their interest,
that told me what I should be doing.
They loved the outdoors,
(01:51):
they loved the grass, they loved the worms,
they loved the birds, they loved the trees,
so I thought, that's it! That that's going
to be my program.
So it started then, but I really worked
the most
in connecting kids with nature
when I was teaching teachers.
I taught at,
Bowling Green State University in Ohio. I was
(02:14):
in the early childhood and special education
areas most of the time.
We quickly jumped over the fence, which was
truly a fence because
it was two different colleges.
And at a university,
sometimes there were separate buildings or separate faculties,
but I jumped over the fence of
(02:35):
education
into environmental studies. I go, these two need
to be connected.
I mean, we're talking about people and what
they're interested in, what they care about, what
helps them grow. So I jumped over the
fence and I combined
early childhood
education and environmental education.
And that was the direct the trajectory
(02:55):
of my work ever since.
So I worked with teachers, and after I
retired from my teaching career, I spent most
of my time writing.
So I've written books about children in nature.
But then about
nine years ago,
I heard about the Children in Nature Network,
which is an international
(03:18):
network,
people interested in connecting children with nature. And
it did start with Richard Vu, who wrote
the book, you know, about what's titled The
Last Child in the Woods. I was very
fortunate to be one of the early members
of their staff,
and my particular role was with the research
library.
(03:38):
So I had the
great privilege
and challenge
of reading research studies,
which twenty years ago there were very few
research studies focusing
specifically on children in nature.
Today, we have over 1,500
summaries of research relating to children in nature
(03:59):
in that library.
So I worked, I worked with that for
over eight years. I just retired from that
work in late December of twenty twenty four.
So
That's how I found you. I saw an
article that wrote in about the honoring you
for all the work you've done and that
you were retiring and how much you would
(04:19):
be missed,
and the influence that you had had. And
and you say this sort of with a
tremendous amount of of humility that when you
started,
and by the way, you have a PhD
in in either it's either in one or
the other or across the bridge. You have
to
Really in education,
in childhood education.
And that, you know, you've written many a
(04:41):
journal article about nature and children and written
these beautiful books. And then,
in recent years,
focused somewhat on special ed, which you said
you had a love for as well. And
I know that there's you have a brother
who influenced your experience with that. So we'd
love to hear those those, you know, some
of those stories as well and share them.
(05:02):
But I'm guessing that your role and the
children in and Nature Network's role
and Richard Louv's role had and his work
had some influence in increasing the number of
journal articles
from a few to the 1,500 there are
now. So can you tell us a little
bit about, you know, how that trajectory, as
you called it, worked
to, you know, where how did it how
(05:24):
did you make it work? How did the
importance of nature and children
grow
and amplify? I really think the impetus was
Richard Louv's book. I mean, that's what many
people read
and realized this is a problem.
At that time, when Richard wrote the book,
of course, we didn't have a long period
(05:46):
of time to go back and say, Well,
what happens when kids are not connected to
nature? What happens?
So his book just raised the question, and
the concern,
what may happen could be very harmful
to both children and the environment. The Children
and Nature Network focuses on children, the health
of the children, the mental health, the physical
(06:07):
health, the social health, but also looks at
they can't be whole without the connection to
the environment.
And of course, they live within the natural
world, so to be healthy, the natural world
has to be healthy.
So Richard Blue's book, I would say, generated
a lot of interest.
And once people paid attention to the concern,
(06:29):
then
I
I was absolutely amazed how many different
disciplines became involved.
So the studies in the research library,
they aren't just about
are from people working in education.
It includes
medical professionals,
people working in the mental health field,
(06:49):
people in the landscape design field. It's just
all of the different disciplines, psychology,
philosophy.
Agriculture, I would think, farming, you know. Yes.
Even tourism.
Nutrition, yeah. Family studies. Yeah. That's all somehow
connected to what's going on with children and
nature.
Let's talk for a moment about nature deficit
(07:10):
disorder, like, just so that we can put
it out there for our listeners, because you
and I are on the same page. We
we get this and we're, like, obsessed with
it, right? But tell us a little bit
about, you know, what it is, what was
found out, and what the impact is of
this disconnect
between children growing up
with a connection to nature and children now
(07:30):
growing up inside,
in front of screens,
disconnected from each other, disconnected from all of
the senses of truly
embodying a connection with nature as opposed to
watching it on video, whatever, you know.
Well, to start out with and Richard makes
it very clear in his book and all
(07:50):
of his writings and and presentations
that the nature deficit disorder is not a
normal
diagnosis,
either in mental health or physical health.
Yet yet the
behaviors and the consequences
in terms of development if you are not
if the child is not connected,
(08:11):
with nature. There are physical ramifications.
Children who aren't outdoors in nature
tend to be less active, for one thing,
and we know that affects their health. But
we also know in terms of physical health,
there's some vision problems, there's balance problems.
In mental health, there is a lot more
(08:32):
just anxiety.
What I really love about what has happened
as a result of Richard Louv's work is
the focus more on, well, what are the
benefits?
So we don't have a long period of
time to go back and look at what
the problems have been, but we have been
(08:53):
able to look at the benefits.
So we can look at the young children
who do have the opportunities to be involved
with nature, and look at the good stuff
that goes on.
As we have kind of summarized it in
the research library
information,
We know we have many, many studies summarizing
(09:14):
the research saying
nature makes kids healthier,
happier, martyred,
and better supports of the environment, so we
usually focus And better connected, but better in
relationships. Right?
Absolutely. The studies
showing or comparing
groups of children playing indoors
(09:34):
and or outdoors,
their interactions
much more cooperative
and friendly and
helpful
outdoors than indoors. The children's
play is a richer kind of play. It
tends to have more imagination, it's more inclusive.
So, yes, that certainly is an area that
(09:54):
makes a big difference in the So I'm
a positive psychologist, so I love to approach
things in a positive sense for which is
what you just said. Like, let's not look
at what we lost. Let's look at what
we're gaining here. So kids who do spend
time in nature I mean, I have a
few the the three things you mentioned specifically,
three of them were vision, balance, and anxiety.
(10:16):
I also added immunity, and I had a
conversation with Mitch Rolick, who's a regenerative farmer,
about this a couple of weeks ago in
an episode that, you know, I feel so
strongly about being in the dirt. You know,
that and he's like, you need to eat
the dirt. Like, you need to actually, like,
not find you know, you need to taste
it. Like, you you need to get this
(10:36):
this going in your body because and this
antibacterial
everything,
especially since COVID, it's even, you know, more
dramatic. But it was before then too. There
was a lot of antibacterial everything before that.
Right? Didn't seem to help us, but who
knows? So let just just because I love
these four topics, let's do a moment on
each of them. Let's talk vision.
(10:57):
Right? So, like, I you know, I know
that that,
we're we're looking in our phones, which are
eight inches from us or whatever, four or
six. And then we're looking at computers, which
are, like, whatever,
16 inches from us. I don't know what
the right numbers are, but and we're messing
with our vision,
that we're not moving our eyes back and
forth. Right? Like, we're not getting so tell
(11:18):
us more about vision.
Years ago, when I was a kid, which
is over eighty years ago, we were told
don't have your eyes on books all the
time because too much book reading would hurt
your eyes. Well, that's that's not true.
And the main thing about vision and being
connected to nature,
it's not so much that the screen
(11:40):
is going to hurt your vision as much
as you're going to miss out on the
vitamin d from being outdoors.
Okay.
And as you said, it's that distance and
nearness
that's really It's the muscles, right? Like, you
you need to move your eyes back and
forth and focus at different
and with different amounts of light plus the
(12:01):
vitamin d. Yeah. Okay. So that's vision. One
of the six I'm gonna go with six
senses. One of the six senses. The other
senses,
you know, come so much more alive as
well if you're in the outdoors. I mean,
you can smell the cooking. You can smell
all the chemicals in your house. You can
smell but, like, the smells
that you experience, the range of smell,
(12:22):
of scent in nature versus
inside must be drastically different. Right? So you've
got that same
greater sense of discovery and curiosity. And,
I assume it it's good for your brain
to have more input, variety of input on
all your senses. Yes. It's good for your
brain. It's good for that sensory integration.
(12:43):
So to take in the stimuli from your
senses and to make sense of it, to
see how it the different stimuli
integrate
and what it means in terms of your
body functioning.
Yeah. So all all of your senses, you've
got the same thing with touch. I mean,
if you're touching things in nature, you've got
all different types of textures and wetnesses, you
(13:04):
know, dampnesses and and,
you know, all the different aspects of texture
that I imagine is is just important. And
hearing, like, being able to to listen to
the different channels
of of a bird versus a even a
garbage truck versus a different bird versus a
squirrel versus the rustling in the in the
leaves versus it's very different from sitting
and being on your computer screen.
(13:25):
So that meaning making that goes along with
it, you know, to make meaning of the
senses that are the the sounds that we
hear. Where is that coming from? What does
it do? So, yes, sometimes even what it
warn might warn you about. If you hear
thunder, you get the idea that a storm
may be coming. So the sense,
(13:47):
the hearing
can give you so many messages,
and and as I said, it helps to
make meaning of your world.
Absolutely.
Okay. Yeah. So we we're done. The senses,
clearly,
we need nature. We need to get out
into nature. Okay. We've got balance, And as
I get older and and we've get we've
gotten older, like, balance as an older person
(14:07):
is more, you know, relevant to us. Like,
we don't we think about balance more. Right?
And we hear better. But
the the development of your physical
strength,
which
is way benefited by not only walking on
flat ground, right? Right. Right.
Yes. You need to walk on different types
of surfaces.
(14:28):
So you do need to walk and step
over logs, walk across stones,
all of that helps in terms of knowing
how your body works. If you only walk
on flat surfaces,
then your body doesn't know how to adjust
when you have a different type of surface.
So you tip over. Exactly.
(14:49):
And there are some,
studies showing that kids who have not spent
much time outdoors,
they are bumping into each other, They're bumping
into furniture. They are falling out of their
seats in school. They just don't know how
to
hold them together
in terms of their physical body.
(15:10):
So I imagine limited muscle development. It's very
narrow muscle development, right? Like Yes. Yes.
So your whole range of physical
activity
becomes it shrinks. It shrinks.
Yeah. And that's not good for No. It's
not good for anybody. Okay. Now let's go
mental health.
(15:30):
Not mental illness, mental health. We're talking
the lower stress, the lower anxiety,
the,
the ability to get to the resilience, to
be able to manage your emotions, your experiences
with
without losing it. Right? So let's go to
anxiety. Tell tell me about anxiety. Tell us
about anxiety and and nature.
(15:52):
Well, we can look at kids
and when they
are feeling anxious and you give them the
opportunity or you take them outside,
spend time together outdoors, their anxiety level goes
down. Totally proven. Tons of research. Right? Like,
it's been scientifically
proven.
Yes. Yes. There's a whole theory about stress
(16:15):
reduction. Mhmm. The stress reduction theory, you are
stressed, go outside,
stress reduces for any age.
From infant through my age, it there's that
reduction in stress, which, of course, is not
only mental health, it affects your physical health,
it affects your social interaction, it affects how
you feel about yourself.
(16:36):
So these are no small things.
Oh, you know, it reminds me of, I'm
sure that you've got some story about this,
I'm guessing. It reminds me of, like, these
these images I've seen with parent mothers, parents,
whatever, in, like, cold areas like Scandinavia,
who are out with their young babies
in strollers, like, outside in the middle of
the winter, like, they need fresh air. They
(16:56):
need to be out in the elements. They
need to you're nodding. I'm sure you have,
you know, some some very significant knowledge about
this issue. Tell tell us about this.
I can tell you one that's not even
outdoors, but it has to do with nature.
And a a director of a preschool told
me about this. There was a, girl, I
think she was either three or four years
(17:17):
old.
She was really a nature based preschool
in the classroom.
She was really acting out in terms of
lashing out at other children,
defying the teacher's wishes,
and so the teacher,
did take her down to the principal's office
and said, you need to be away from
(17:38):
the other children for a while.
So the girl was in the principal's office,
and the principal said, could I just hold
you for a minute? You know, you really
seem upset.
So the child was sitting on the principal's
lap, and I don't know what the principal
said, but the girl spit
into the face of the principal, but some
(17:59):
of the spittle
went on the plant on the desk.
And the principal
did not react to the spit on her
face, but she said, I'm worried about the
plant. I don't know if this is going
to hurt the plant.
And the little girl calmed down immediately.
That was,
I don't wanna hurt the plant. That is
(18:21):
how her what
her behavior suggested. And so she she asked
about
what can we do? They wiped it off,
and then by the end of the session,
the principal said, well, maybe you'd like to
come back tomorrow and we'll see how the
plant is doing. I mean, just the focus
on a living
(18:41):
plant.
Change the child calm the child down,
put her into that sense of caring,
change her behavior entirely.
There are stories also in the one book
that I just wrote, and it's called Naturally
In
Clusive, and it's all about including children with
(19:02):
differing abilities
in outdoor settings,
but in many cases in a group setting
because it's primarily
for nature based preschool programs.
And there too, the stories that both the
parents and the teachers tell
about how different the children's behaviors are
outdoors
(19:22):
because
there's something about nature that calms them down,
that helps them integrate
all of the inputs from their senses, from
the
activity of people around them. So yeah, it's
it's really,
like,
so many gifts that nature gives to children,
(19:42):
gives to all of us in terms
of our behaviors,
our our sense of self, just how we
get along in the world.
Well, two things are really coming to mind
that you're offering to me. One of them
is this sense of self and this sense
of
being
in something larger than yourself, which
when you step out into nature, whether wherever
(20:04):
you're at are whether you're looking at the
stars, you're looking at any aspect of being
outside
in nature
with
nature, you are ego steps away, drops away.
Right? So it's about you being part of
something, not at all being about you, which
is such an issue in this society that
we live in. Right? It's all about me.
(20:25):
I need to be happy. I need to
be this. I need to be that. And
so that, like, is so, so coming to
mind on this. And then I wanna talk
metaphor with you. So but but but respond
to let's talk about this greater sense of,
you know, being part of something bigger. Because
you've got this big smile on your face,
and I love it. Georgie,
hitting on a topic that I've been writing
about for the last six months, and my
(20:47):
next book is on
the spiritual dimensions
of connectedness to nature for children.
And one of the,
I guess,
themes that run throughout the whole book, it
is that idea of decentering the self, or
losing that sense of self because you're a
part of something so much bigger, so much
(21:09):
a place, so much full of wonder.
You know, we often talk about how nature
fills us with this sense of wonder,
and especially for children, young children, where everything
is new, but the greatest wonder of all
that comes almost like an
at some point,
it's the wonder of being a part of
(21:30):
all of this around us. I mean, what
what could be more
wonderful than that, than that realization?
And it's true, when we are so caught
up in ourselves, our world is small. We
might think it's very, very important, but in
the grand scheme of things and the way
we can have such a much, much bigger
(21:51):
world,
it is that sense of oneness, the knowing.
It's all connected, and we're a part of
it.
You offered the word gift before, and what
occurs to me is that the gift and
the connection with anxiety and the connection with
the calm
and the resetting of your body, your of
your body and your mind from, you know,
(22:13):
stepping out of
the stressful environment
and the the gift of literally the gift
of not having to be the center of
it.
Like to be able to not have to
focus on yourself
and to be in wonder and in awe
for any age for, but for children to
give them that gift so that it becomes
a practice
(22:33):
and that they know the result,
the bonus, the benefit
of that experience.
So we'll reach for it. We'll reach to
a connection in nature as a natural practice,
as opposed to having to figure it out
later in life. Right? And undo stuff, unlearn
stuff.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. And and another gift that
(22:54):
nature gives is that sense of belonging,
so you feel a part of it and
that our need as humans to belong, the
nature gives us so much of that feeling.
I belong. You know, nature is our natural
habitat. We know plants and animals do so
much better in their natural habitat. Well, so
do we, as humans. Nature
(23:15):
is our natural habitat. That's where we can
bloom the best.
You know, it's making me think of, like,
I'm literally picturing myself or feeling myself, you
know, standing
out in a garden or whatever or in
the woods.
And over my feet, there's ants walking across
me, and the wind is blowing, and the
sun is like and the plant the tree
(23:36):
is touching me, and I am in it.
Like, I am and I belong.
Right? Like, that's what you're saying. Like, instead
of putting yourself in a space that's not
part of where you belong,
to imagine it instead is that this is
where I like, this is comfortable. This is
I'm in it. I don't own it. I
don't control it. I don't need to control
it.
(23:56):
And one thing about nature, it is nondiscriminatory.
It does not discriminate
against certain kinds of people, certain age of
people, certain abilities. It simply does not. And
I think that adds to that sense of
comfort
and belonging.
Nature doesn't discriminate.
Now even even more so in terms of
(24:17):
looking at a positive lens, you know, I'm
thinking about, like, you know, you always you
always hear these stories about how, your pet
or a farm animal, like someone who know
an animal, some some bit of wildlife, or
maybe it works with plants too, I imagine
it does,
who know you, sense you and what you
need.
So it actually is more
positively responsive.
(24:38):
Right? It's not just that everyone's accepted, it's
that you're even more accepted
if if there's
if if they sense a sense of sadness
or weakness or something. Right?
Absolutely.
Yes.
Yes. That's very true. You know, and more
and more
scholars who are writing about the nature human
connection
(24:59):
are
pointing out the reality of reciprocity,
sometimes think of ourselves as humans, well we
have a responsibility
to take care of nature. Well, it's not
one way. Nature takes care of us as
well. It's a back and forth. I love
that idea of reciprocity.
It's a relationship.
(25:20):
Say more, like, give us some examples because
this is such a beautiful construct that we
need to, like, sort of feel it. So
what's coming to mind? What are some examples
of the reciprocity that come to mind?
Well, obviously,
when we take care of a tomato plant,
if conditions are right, the plant produces the
(25:41):
tomato for us to eat. So that's a
very easy way to look at reciprocity.
But there's also the idea of let's see
how I might say that, of being
accepted,
and I know I've already talked about that,
but being with rather than separate from. For
example, two days ago, I went out for
(26:03):
a hike just outside of my neighborhood where
we've got some beautiful hiking trails, and it
was windy. Sometimes
I avoid a hike if it's windy,
but on that particular day, I felt invited.
I actually felt invited to be out with
the wind rather than in the wind.
And so my whole
(26:25):
focus as I was hiking, it was on
this give and take. It was the invitation
to be out there I felt
in and with. So you weren't fighting it.
You weren't, like, struggling with, oh, and and
and being upset by it. It was all
positive energy
that you're in it.
And that I imagine, like, your body was
(26:45):
moving with it and joyfully not fighting it.
Yeah. So when the wind was behind my
back to feel that, you know, hey. I'm
being moved along with the wind by having
it blow through my hair. What a wonderful
experience. Another example, I once was doing a
workshop with some teachers. And when I have
done workshops, I always want it to be
(27:08):
hands on, action oriented rather than just talk,
talk, talk. Mhmm. So I had some outdoor
activities planned for the teachers. It rained that
day.
And so I gave the teachers an option,
I said, okay,
I know some of you would prefer not
getting wet in the rain, but if there
are some of you who want to go
out,
(27:29):
here's an activity you might do. About one
third of the teachers decided, yeah, let's just
do that. And when they came back in
and reported to the others,
the first comment they made was, that was
so much fun. Right? So in terms of
reciprocity,
you know, the teachers were putting themselves out
to be in this rainy weather. But in
(27:51):
the meantime, the rain was enriching them in
such a fun, delightful way.
You know, you remind me of the and
I've noticed this a lot, lady, and it's
not a new thing. It's just, you know,
what you notice grows, right? And I've just
noticed, and I'm judging, there's a judgment call,
but too often,
people make comments and even children. The other
(28:12):
day, like a child who was probably, I
think, 11 or 12
commented, or, and adults do this, on someone
else's behavior being childish
or infantile or not adult enough
and their behavior. And I, I could just
go with it, but I don't. And I
push back and I'm like,
but what makes only a child allowed to
(28:34):
have fun, you know, going out and being
in the rain? Why is that
a bad why do you have to stop
having fun when you grow up? And this
is not a new a new topic. I
mean, this is a big but I think
we don't talk about it enough, and we're
not giving ourselves permission. And your story is
perfect. Right? So, like, these teachers had the
chance to get out of the classroom and
out of their studies and go play in
(28:56):
the rain and jump in a puddle and
see what the world is like when it's
wet, which is different. Right? And their comment
when they got back was
not feeling guilty
that they had had fun, but joyful they
had had fun. So go with that whole
thing of of this child versus adult behavior.
Exactly. Now that sense of wonder and,
(29:19):
Rachel Carson, you know, who was a scientist?
Yeah. It was a lot of warnings about
pesticides in the environment, but she also was
so tuned into how children
know the world of nature.
So she wrote the book,
let's see, what's it called?
Sense of Wonder. Right. And I just learned
about that, and I think that it's it's
(29:39):
a bummer that she is so known for
alerting us of all the dangers
and that she isn't recognized. So I'm so
happy you just brought that up. Like, she
was so in love with nature in such
a positive way. That's why she was alerting
us. Don't ruin nature.
We need it. She writes she writes in
that book that's one of the greatest gifts
we can give to children
(30:00):
is to keep that sense of wonder alive,
but then
she also says it's to our great misfortune
that for many of us, as we get
older,
that sense of wonder diminishes,
and thus our quality of life diminishes.
So she points out that, that what usually
happens,
(30:21):
that wonderful
thing that we have called wonder
tends to diminish,
but fortunately we can renew that, and that's
something I've always pointed out to teachers. You
yourself
have to be connected with nature
in order to connect the children or to
keep the children's sense of wonder alive. You
(30:44):
need to pay attention to your own sense
of wonder.
Absolutely. So I have to share sort of
how I got here in this conversation with
you also, and I just wanna hear your
thoughts on it. I have studied spent my
life, I've realized, studying the impact of things
on society and on behavior. Technology,
I did technology for a while, business,
marketing, and then I studied religion and the
(31:06):
impact of religion on society for quite a
while. I got a master's in it. And
what I realized
was something really
core, which is that religion has this huge
advantage of that it has an important part
of it that is repetitive.
So you are not only
you know, in this day and age, we're
supposed to learn something here at once,
(31:29):
learn it. We get judged. We're like, what
do you mean you don't remember? What do
you mean you don't like? We met before
you heard this before you. You heard the
story. I told you this one time. Like,
we need to rewire our brain after it's
heard because it's heard things numerous times or
learned things numerous times. We're the and the
one of the few places
that that happens and is accepted
(31:50):
and is promoted is in religion. We read
the same things for for thousands of years.
Right? The same stories. We interpret them. We
build these neural pathways
around these specific stories. And I realized that
the other place I knew that that happened
was in parent child or teacher child or
com or children's reading. And and I miss
(32:11):
those days when I had little kids, and
I would read the same story over and
over again. Sing the story, you tell it
a different way, whatever it is. It's the
same. And those are the stories that are
remembered forever.
Those are the memories. Right? Because you're telling
them again. You're repeating them. You're talking about
them. So that got me into wanting to
write children's books,
young children's books that kids will read with
(32:32):
their parents over and over again
so that they're both in the game. They're
both experiencing the wonder
and they're continuing to experience it by talking
about it. And they're carrying the metaphor, the
nature metaphor that comes with my resilience gone
wild work
forward so that that stays
in in their life, you know, as as
(32:52):
their future of wonder.
Yeah. So I just wanted to, like, you
know, that's where I come from that I
got here in terms of wanting to have
this conversation with you and wanting to go
into focusing on children and and parent child
relationship
and how we can help both the child
and the parent. So what what's coming up
for you on that?
Well, I remember reading one study when I
(33:14):
was working for the research library, and it
was a parent with about a three year
old daughter, and their conversation
as they were at a nature center so
they were outside on the grounds at a
nature center and how rich the interaction was
between the two, so different than what they
had observed when they were indoors just looking
(33:35):
at the exhibit,
the exhibits inside. It was just entirely different.
There was, as you mentioned earlier, so many
different sights and sounds and feels going on,
so it also enriches
the interaction between the two. And other cities
will back that same thing up, that the,
(33:56):
I guess, family enrichment part of nature,
that is very, very real.
But, Jessica, when you said something about the
repetition
in terms of
what we often do in religious settings,
Richard Parson talks about the repeated refrains of
nature. Mhmm.
From season to season,
(34:17):
from birth to death. There are certain refrains
that we notice over and over again.
You know, the waves going in and out.
Just,
difference between day and night, the movement of
the clouds, and so many repeated
refrains,
and how that can be a part of
not just our cognitive learning,
(34:39):
but the calmness,
that,
sense of wonder, and the and that sense
of just reassurance.
Life goes on.
And it's comforting
to
to to go through a rhythm
and and and repeat a rhythm and to
hit a new stage of the rhythm that
you've been at before.
(35:00):
Like, we we are comforted by
things that are familiar. Right? So and building
on them. So it gets to my you
know, I I love exploring time,
and time goes with rhythm. And we live
in this, like, crazy busy
busyness focused
world
where we we aren't about any natural rhythms
anymore. Right? Like, the we don't go to
(35:21):
sleep when it gets dark. We don't get
up when it gets light. We go out
can we go to sleep and get up
when our alarm or our clock tells us
to? And we just run, run, run, run,
run, and we don't there's not in any
way connected to the
natural, comforting,
wonder filled rhythms
of nature and time. So you have this
another big smile. Like, you get you're, like,
(35:42):
so in the same pathway as me on
this. Right?
Well, I just read something about a naturalist
saying, we need to do, we need to
enter more into botanical time. Many things grow
rather slowly. We need to become more in
sync with that botanical time.
I love that. Yes. Watching the grass grow
(36:02):
is actually a beautiful thing. Right?
Beautiful thing. Yes.
Yeah. I mean,
slowing down. It's it's interesting. I've gotten recently,
I've gotten into and I I actually can't
remember. I don't know if it's I can't
remember what the term is, but and you
might you might know it, but the closer
you get to something and look more closely
at it and more
(36:23):
intimately at it, it gets more and more
complicated, more complex, the underlying so that, you
know, watching grass grow from afar
might not look like there's any change. But
if you look at grass growing close-up,
there's movement. Right? Like and it's about how
intensely you actually focus and don't get distracted.
(36:44):
So
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
We need to spend more time just being
there. Yeah. And looking at the small things
because
they there is movement. There is change. There
is
something to experience.
There's a story happening.
There's not a lack of change and a
lack of movement. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
(37:05):
So so I wanna ask you about metaphor
because metaphor is a very child connected, like,
nature metaphors and metaphors are very
are used often in children with teaching children
and in teaching.
And, you know, as a psych psychologist and
a coach, you know, metaphors are really helpful
to us because
they allow
a big part of what metaphors do is
(37:26):
they allow you to approach a topic that's
very difficult
to approach in its actual language. Like, if
you're
struggling with fear of something, if you talk
about the actual fear of the thing, it's
much harder than if you if you come
up with a metaphor that's like it, and
then it's easier to talk about. If you
worry about protection and instead,
(37:48):
you talk about a turtle shell, You know,
there's that the whole nature metaphor. And I
am obsessed with nature metaphors because I don't
like violent metaphors, which we use tremendously,
war based metaphors in our language today.
It's just constant, and
it trigger you know, your head acts differently
when you hear a violence based metaphor rather
(38:09):
than a nature based metaphor. It's just your
brain is in a different place
when you use different language. Right? So, you
know, since I'm pretty obsessed with this resilience
gone wild thing being about offering metaphors
for people to
grab onto and use to build resilience, give
them, you know, hints to how to be
more resilient, what's coming up for you about
(38:30):
nation metaphors? I imagine that that's part of
some of the teaching you've done. Well, children's
literature
is so often filled with metaphors. So anybody
who's looking for
beautiful
metaphors,
go to children's literature.
Right? Yeah.
I just reread the book, a children's book
(38:51):
called The Other Way to Listen. We immediately
think, listen, that's something we do with our
ears.
Our heads involved too, our mind, but the
other way to listen,
it's more about being present. So
the little girl in the story
wants to be able to hear things that
(39:12):
the older man in the story hears.
He can hear
the seeds bursting open underground.
He can hear the rocks
humming.
And so the little girl says, well, teach
me how to do that. And he reminds
her, I can't
teach you.
You need to just be there and give
(39:34):
yourself
lots of time,
and be very quiet and attentive.
And of course, in the end, she also
hears things like the corn singing. So that
other way to listen in a sense is
a metaphor
because it's not the hearing with the ears.
It's a different kind of
(39:55):
taking in the messages.
I love that. It's so important. It's a
different way to take in the messages and
you get to choose, but you have to
practice it. And I think about it, like,
I'm a big fan of
of focusing any any single sense on a
channel of input.
So,
you know, if you're underwater,
you can and you're you're snorkeling, you can
(40:17):
either hear or scuba dive. You can hear
the bubbles of your of your
tank, or you can hear your yourself, or
you can listen for
the fish making noise, which they do. Like,
there's a channel. If I'm, you know, I
I so often, like, you know, I'm at
the on the ocean. I can either hear
the ocean and choose to just channel my
listening
to the ocean or a bird or some
(40:39):
single channel, or I can say I can't
hear it because there's this human noise that's
disruptive.
Right? So, you know,
it it's such a beautiful thing to practice.
Yes. Well, when I was out with the
wind the other day Yes.
I tuned into the sound of the wind
than just tuning into ideas in my head.
(40:59):
It was, I am really listening to the
wind.
So the wind as it moved through the
future I live in New Mexico, so we
don't have a lot of trees where I
live, but even the bushes and the grasses,
to hear the wind move through that,
hear the wind as it rustles past my
ear. I mean, it's it's just a a
(41:21):
beautiful way of tuning into nature is by
being there and tuning other things out.
Including yourself. We get back to that issue
of, like, you're not in this. You're Right.
Right. It's not about you.
Right. For me, it was all about the
wind. It's so beautiful. I love it. Okay,
Ruth. So
(41:41):
where are we? Let
where what do you think like, now we've
had this conversation for a while.
Absolutely
just makes my heart sing.
Words of wisdom. Like, where what do we
do?
Give us some
some, like, quick things we can do and
some longer things we can do to make
this
(42:01):
to fix this problem of nature deficiency and
to get people to wake up to how
important it is, which is some simple things
that we can do differently.
One is
truly
go
outdoors
in an
unhurried
way.
So, it's more than getting from your front
door to your car.
It is spending time outdoors, whether you are
(42:23):
a walker, a hiker, you go fishing, or
if you're a gardener, but to
increase that time for at least a little
bit in a very unhurried
way.
You don't get to
develop a relationship
unless you invest time and attention to it.
And we want we yearn for that relationship
(42:45):
with nature. It's built into our DNA.
It's called biophilia,
love of nature.
But if we ignore it long enough,
just as you if you ignore
a somebody you love, ignore them long enough,
that that sense of connection
diminishes.
That relationship
to be strong and contribute to you quality
(43:08):
of life, spend time, focus on it. So
that's one thing That's why I say that
I keep hearing, consistently
that
anyone who recommends that and then they do
it sort of as an activity in their
in their job or whatever, they've never heard
anyone say,
I didn't like that. Everyone's right? Like, nobody's
ever said
they wanted to stop or they didn't enjoy
(43:29):
it. They wanted more of it. So, you
know, we need to give ourselves that gift
of just stepping in another minute and another
minute, another minute and time disappears
and joy comes. Right? Joy and wonder.
Exactly. Yes. Another thing that some people might
enjoy, and I've done it for years, is
journaling
to actually
(43:50):
record some of not just what you see
and hear, but how you feel.
How did you feel
when you hiked with the wind?
How did you feel when you saw that
strawberry
beginning to ripen? How did you feel about
that? So journaling.
And another thing that I had some students
(44:11):
do, college students, is write their ecological
story.
An ecological
autobiography.
That's been very powerful for some of us
too. Oh, tell me. I don't know what
that is. Tell me what that is. This
sounds amazing.
The story
of your memoir
or your autobiography
focusing on your relationship with nature.
(44:32):
So when you were a very young child,
what did you do in nature? What did
you experience? What insights did you have as
you got a little bit older? How did
that change? Where are you today in that
relationship?
I mean, when I go back to some
of my journals and my own ecological autobiography,
I find I wrote things like
(44:52):
color of my soul green.
And by journaling, you get to read it
again, so you get to live it again.
And there's something about another gift of nature,
once you have that moment of wonder or
you receive that special
joy,
you can revisit it.
(45:13):
So it is there to go back to
again,
and if you write it down,
you might be surprised,
especially date it, and then look, three years
ago, what was I doing on March 24
'5 years ago? I can go back and
and look, and I'm sometimes,
it reaffirms
my relationship with nature and how much it
(45:34):
means to me, and sometimes it surprises me,
like, oh my gosh, I I thought of
that ten years ago.
So there is something about writing it down,
but that idea of an ecological autobiography,
seeing over time
how you progressed in that relationship. And even
if you start small and you do it
for a week, Right? Like, how how are
(45:56):
you different from once you're paying attention to
something, it grows. Right? So from Monday to
to Friday,
how has your thinking about nature and your
feeling nature changed?
Right. Right.
You learn something about nature, and you certainly
learn something about yourself.
Yeah. That's beautiful. I love it. Okay, Ruth.
So we're I know you've retired recently
(46:18):
from but that that's only a formality, I
think, the language of retirement. So you've closed
one door. I'm sure others are opening. I'm
actually going to the Children's in Nature Network
conference, which I'm so excited about. And I
know you've been there in, Minnesota this this,
this May. And I'm just so excited to
get more and more into this world of
children. So where what are you doing next?
(46:40):
You've got this life
incredible
life's gift that you've given us.
I am writing, and I'm almost finished with
it, another book, and this one is Spirituality.
I can't wait to read it. I'm so
excited.
Was on the spiritual dimensions of our connectedness
with nature, but looking specifically at children. And
(47:01):
I already realized I can't put everything in
this book that I want to, so I
started a proposal for another book that broadens
it not just to children, but
to all. Oh, I can't wait to read
it. Yay. I'm so excited. No. Gee. I
I I'm 82 years old, so when I
actually retire, I'm not sure when that's going
to happen. No. There's no that's what I'm
(47:22):
saying. It's a it's a bit of language
that just says I moved on from one
from one chapter to the next. Right?
Right. Right. Yes.
So that's what I'm I'm doing, and I
continue to hike and write some poetry and
yeah. And just to put it out there
that you're out there at 82 years old
hiking and writing poetry and writing new books
and feeling the wind and all this joy
(47:45):
because you've stayed healthy by being in nature.
Right? Like, you're out there doing. So
you're an inspiration. You're a role model. You're
my man. Honestly like a really powerful mentor
for me. Thank you. I'm so happy to
have you in my life newly in my
life, and thank you for sharing this joy
with us.
Thank you for reaching out to me. I
love the conversation.
I can't wait to keep it going. Thank
(48:06):
you, Ruth, so much. Any last word of
wisdom you wanna just sort of just one
liners that you you gave your teachers at
the end of their sessions? It's go out
and do it. Be true to yourself, your
authentic self. You are a part of nature.
That nature is your natural habitat. That is
where you will blossom and take others with
(48:29):
you.
I love that. That's my joy. Take others
with you. Thank you so much, Ruth. I
will I will see you soon and be
in touch. Thank
you.
This has been a production of BLI Studios
(48:50):
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
Anything else to add, Miles?
Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. I'm so happy to
be in in this beautiful space with Ruth
Wilson,
new mentor and hero of mine for the
work that that Ruth spent a lifetime I'm
sure a lifetime of other things. I think
it's been about three decades that she's been
working deeply in the field of children and
nature specifically. It might be a longer lifetime
(00:24):
and we're gonna get to hear about it
and incredibly beautiful influences and and influence that
that you've had on this world of fighting
against Richard Louv's nature deficiency
and and
creating nature connection in children and families. And
anyway, I'm so excited about this topic of
conversation. So welcome, Ruth. Tell us a little
bit about yourself, and let's let's just have
(00:46):
this beautiful, joyful conversation.
Hello, Jessica
and everyone else. Yes. I am Ruth
Wilson. I've been a teacher
and a teacher educator most of my life,
but I think what gives me the greatest
joy and perhaps
the most influence is in terms of my
(01:09):
writing.
I've always wanted to be a writer and
always wanted to have something to write about.
So once I discovered the world of nature
and the idea of connecting nature
and children, I go, that's it. That is
my path.
So I started out when I used to
be young.
(01:30):
I did have my own preschool program, and
I just kind of went about winging it
in terms of, okay, what do we do
with a group of 25 preschool children?
And I found out by following their interest,
that told me what I should be doing.
They loved the outdoors,
(01:51):
they loved the grass, they loved the worms,
they loved the birds, they loved the trees,
so I thought, that's it! That that's going
to be my program.
So it started then, but I really worked
the most
in connecting kids with nature
when I was teaching teachers.
I taught at,
Bowling Green State University in Ohio. I was
(02:14):
in the early childhood and special education
areas most of the time.
We quickly jumped over the fence, which was
truly a fence because
it was two different colleges.
And at a university,
sometimes there were separate buildings or separate faculties,
but I jumped over the fence of
(02:35):
education
into environmental studies. I go, these two need
to be connected.
I mean, we're talking about people and what
they're interested in, what they care about, what
helps them grow. So I jumped over the
fence and I combined
early childhood
education and environmental education.
And that was the direct the trajectory
(02:55):
of my work ever since.
So I worked with teachers, and after I
retired from my teaching career, I spent most
of my time writing.
So I've written books about children in nature.
But then about
nine years ago,
I heard about the Children in Nature Network,
which is an international
(03:18):
network,
people interested in connecting children with nature. And
it did start with Richard Vu, who wrote
the book, you know, about what's titled The
Last Child in the Woods. I was very
fortunate to be one of the early members
of their staff,
and my particular role was with the research
library.
(03:38):
So I had the
great privilege
and challenge
of reading research studies,
which twenty years ago there were very few
research studies focusing
specifically on children in nature.
Today, we have over 1,500
summaries of research relating to children in nature
(03:59):
in that library.
So I worked, I worked with that for
over eight years. I just retired from that
work in late December of twenty twenty four.
So
That's how I found you. I saw an
article that wrote in about the honoring you
for all the work you've done and that
you were retiring and how much you would
(04:19):
be missed,
and the influence that you had had. And
and you say this sort of with a
tremendous amount of of humility that when you
started,
and by the way, you have a PhD
in in either it's either in one or
the other or across the bridge. You have
to
Really in education,
in childhood education.
And that, you know, you've written many a
(04:41):
journal article about nature and children and written
these beautiful books. And then,
in recent years,
focused somewhat on special ed, which you said
you had a love for as well. And
I know that there's you have a brother
who influenced your experience with that. So we'd
love to hear those those, you know, some
of those stories as well and share them.
(05:02):
But I'm guessing that your role and the
children in and Nature Network's role
and Richard Louv's role had and his work
had some influence in increasing the number of
journal articles
from a few to the 1,500 there are
now. So can you tell us a little
bit about, you know, how that trajectory, as
you called it, worked
to, you know, where how did it how
(05:24):
did you make it work? How did the
importance of nature and children
grow
and amplify? I really think the impetus was
Richard Louv's book. I mean, that's what many
people read
and realized this is a problem.
At that time, when Richard wrote the book,
of course, we didn't have a long period
(05:46):
of time to go back and say, Well,
what happens when kids are not connected to
nature? What happens?
So his book just raised the question, and
the concern,
what may happen could be very harmful
to both children and the environment. The Children
and Nature Network focuses on children, the health
of the children, the mental health, the physical
(06:07):
health, the social health, but also looks at
they can't be whole without the connection to
the environment.
And of course, they live within the natural
world, so to be healthy, the natural world
has to be healthy.
So Richard Blue's book, I would say, generated
a lot of interest.
And once people paid attention to the concern,
(06:29):
then
I
I was absolutely amazed how many different
disciplines became involved.
So the studies in the research library,
they aren't just about
are from people working in education.
It includes
medical professionals,
people working in the mental health field,
(06:49):
people in the landscape design field. It's just
all of the different disciplines, psychology,
philosophy.
Agriculture, I would think, farming, you know. Yes.
Even tourism.
Nutrition, yeah. Family studies. Yeah. That's all somehow
connected to what's going on with children and
nature.
Let's talk for a moment about nature deficit
(07:10):
disorder, like, just so that we can put
it out there for our listeners, because you
and I are on the same page. We
we get this and we're, like, obsessed with
it, right? But tell us a little bit
about, you know, what it is, what was
found out, and what the impact is of
this disconnect
between children growing up
with a connection to nature and children now
(07:30):
growing up inside,
in front of screens,
disconnected from each other, disconnected from all of
the senses of truly
embodying a connection with nature as opposed to
watching it on video, whatever, you know.
Well, to start out with and Richard makes
it very clear in his book and all
(07:50):
of his writings and and presentations
that the nature deficit disorder is not a
normal
diagnosis,
either in mental health or physical health.
Yet yet the
behaviors and the consequences
in terms of development if you are not
if the child is not connected,
(08:11):
with nature. There are physical ramifications.
Children who aren't outdoors in nature
tend to be less active, for one thing,
and we know that affects their health. But
we also know in terms of physical health,
there's some vision problems, there's balance problems.
In mental health, there is a lot more
(08:32):
just anxiety.
What I really love about what has happened
as a result of Richard Louv's work is
the focus more on, well, what are the
benefits?
So we don't have a long period of
time to go back and look at what
the problems have been, but we have been
(08:53):
able to look at the benefits.
So we can look at the young children
who do have the opportunities to be involved
with nature, and look at the good stuff
that goes on.
As we have kind of summarized it in
the research library
information,
We know we have many, many studies summarizing
(09:14):
the research saying
nature makes kids healthier,
happier, martyred,
and better supports of the environment, so we
usually focus And better connected, but better in
relationships. Right?
Absolutely. The studies
showing or comparing
groups of children playing indoors
(09:34):
and or outdoors,
their interactions
much more cooperative
and friendly and
helpful
outdoors than indoors. The children's
play is a richer kind of play. It
tends to have more imagination, it's more inclusive.
So, yes, that certainly is an area that
(09:54):
makes a big difference in the So I'm
a positive psychologist, so I love to approach
things in a positive sense for which is
what you just said. Like, let's not look
at what we lost. Let's look at what
we're gaining here. So kids who do spend
time in nature I mean, I have a
few the the three things you mentioned specifically,
three of them were vision, balance, and anxiety.
(10:16):
I also added immunity, and I had a
conversation with Mitch Rolick, who's a regenerative farmer,
about this a couple of weeks ago in
an episode that, you know, I feel so
strongly about being in the dirt. You know,
that and he's like, you need to eat
the dirt. Like, you need to actually, like,
not find you know, you need to taste
it. Like, you you need to get this
(10:36):
this going in your body because and this
antibacterial
everything,
especially since COVID, it's even, you know, more
dramatic. But it was before then too. There
was a lot of antibacterial everything before that.
Right? Didn't seem to help us, but who
knows? So let just just because I love
these four topics, let's do a moment on
each of them. Let's talk vision.
(10:57):
Right? So, like, I you know, I know
that that,
we're we're looking in our phones, which are
eight inches from us or whatever, four or
six. And then we're looking at computers, which
are, like, whatever,
16 inches from us. I don't know what
the right numbers are, but and we're messing
with our vision,
that we're not moving our eyes back and
forth. Right? Like, we're not getting so tell
(11:18):
us more about vision.
Years ago, when I was a kid, which
is over eighty years ago, we were told
don't have your eyes on books all the
time because too much book reading would hurt
your eyes. Well, that's that's not true.
And the main thing about vision and being
connected to nature,
it's not so much that the screen
(11:40):
is going to hurt your vision as much
as you're going to miss out on the
vitamin d from being outdoors.
Okay.
And as you said, it's that distance and
nearness
that's really It's the muscles, right? Like, you
you need to move your eyes back and
forth and focus at different
and with different amounts of light plus the
(12:01):
vitamin d. Yeah. Okay. So that's vision. One
of the six I'm gonna go with six
senses. One of the six senses. The other
senses,
you know, come so much more alive as
well if you're in the outdoors. I mean,
you can smell the cooking. You can smell
all the chemicals in your house. You can
smell but, like, the smells
that you experience, the range of smell,
(12:22):
of scent in nature versus
inside must be drastically different. Right? So you've
got that same
greater sense of discovery and curiosity. And,
I assume it it's good for your brain
to have more input, variety of input on
all your senses. Yes. It's good for your
brain. It's good for that sensory integration.
(12:43):
So to take in the stimuli from your
senses and to make sense of it, to
see how it the different stimuli
integrate
and what it means in terms of your
body functioning.
Yeah. So all all of your senses, you've
got the same thing with touch. I mean,
if you're touching things in nature, you've got
all different types of textures and wetnesses, you
(13:04):
know, dampnesses and and,
you know, all the different aspects of texture
that I imagine is is just important. And
hearing, like, being able to to listen to
the different channels
of of a bird versus a even a
garbage truck versus a different bird versus a
squirrel versus the rustling in the in the
leaves versus it's very different from sitting
and being on your computer screen.
(13:25):
So that meaning making that goes along with
it, you know, to make meaning of the
senses that are the the sounds that we
hear. Where is that coming from? What does
it do? So, yes, sometimes even what it
warn might warn you about. If you hear
thunder, you get the idea that a storm
may be coming. So the sense,
(13:47):
the hearing
can give you so many messages,
and and as I said, it helps to
make meaning of your world.
Absolutely.
Okay. Yeah. So we we're done. The senses,
clearly,
we need nature. We need to get out
into nature. Okay. We've got balance, And as
I get older and and we've get we've
gotten older, like, balance as an older person
(14:07):
is more, you know, relevant to us. Like,
we don't we think about balance more. Right?
And we hear better. But
the the development of your physical
strength,
which
is way benefited by not only walking on
flat ground, right? Right. Right.
Yes. You need to walk on different types
of surfaces.
(14:28):
So you do need to walk and step
over logs, walk across stones,
all of that helps in terms of knowing
how your body works. If you only walk
on flat surfaces,
then your body doesn't know how to adjust
when you have a different type of surface.
So you tip over. Exactly.
(14:49):
And there are some,
studies showing that kids who have not spent
much time outdoors,
they are bumping into each other, They're bumping
into furniture. They are falling out of their
seats in school. They just don't know how
to
hold them together
in terms of their physical body.
(15:10):
So I imagine limited muscle development. It's very
narrow muscle development, right? Like Yes. Yes.
So your whole range of physical
activity
becomes it shrinks. It shrinks.
Yeah. And that's not good for No. It's
not good for anybody. Okay. Now let's go
mental health.
(15:30):
Not mental illness, mental health. We're talking
the lower stress, the lower anxiety,
the,
the ability to get to the resilience, to
be able to manage your emotions, your experiences
with
without losing it. Right? So let's go to
anxiety. Tell tell me about anxiety. Tell us
about anxiety and and nature.
(15:52):
Well, we can look at kids
and when they
are feeling anxious and you give them the
opportunity or you take them outside,
spend time together outdoors, their anxiety level goes
down. Totally proven. Tons of research. Right? Like,
it's been scientifically
proven.
Yes. Yes. There's a whole theory about stress
(16:15):
reduction. Mhmm. The stress reduction theory, you are
stressed, go outside,
stress reduces for any age.
From infant through my age, it there's that
reduction in stress, which, of course, is not
only mental health, it affects your physical health,
it affects your social interaction, it affects how
you feel about yourself.
(16:36):
So these are no small things.
Oh, you know, it reminds me of, I'm
sure that you've got some story about this,
I'm guessing. It reminds me of, like, these
these images I've seen with parent mothers, parents,
whatever, in, like, cold areas like Scandinavia,
who are out with their young babies
in strollers, like, outside in the middle of
the winter, like, they need fresh air. They
(16:56):
need to be out in the elements. They
need to you're nodding. I'm sure you have,
you know, some some very significant knowledge about
this issue. Tell tell us about this.
I can tell you one that's not even
outdoors, but it has to do with nature.
And a a director of a preschool told
me about this. There was a, girl, I
think she was either three or four years
(17:17):
old.
She was really a nature based preschool
in the classroom.
She was really acting out in terms of
lashing out at other children,
defying the teacher's wishes,
and so the teacher,
did take her down to the principal's office
and said, you need to be away from
(17:38):
the other children for a while.
So the girl was in the principal's office,
and the principal said, could I just hold
you for a minute? You know, you really
seem upset.
So the child was sitting on the principal's
lap, and I don't know what the principal
said, but the girl spit
into the face of the principal, but some
(17:59):
of the spittle
went on the plant on the desk.
And the principal
did not react to the spit on her
face, but she said, I'm worried about the
plant. I don't know if this is going
to hurt the plant.
And the little girl calmed down immediately.
That was,
I don't wanna hurt the plant. That is
(18:21):
how her what
her behavior suggested. And so she she asked
about
what can we do? They wiped it off,
and then by the end of the session,
the principal said, well, maybe you'd like to
come back tomorrow and we'll see how the
plant is doing. I mean, just the focus
on a living
(18:41):
plant.
Change the child calm the child down,
put her into that sense of caring,
change her behavior entirely.
There are stories also in the one book
that I just wrote, and it's called Naturally
In
Clusive, and it's all about including children with
(19:02):
differing abilities
in outdoor settings,
but in many cases in a group setting
because it's primarily
for nature based preschool programs.
And there too, the stories that both the
parents and the teachers tell
about how different the children's behaviors are
outdoors
(19:22):
because
there's something about nature that calms them down,
that helps them integrate
all of the inputs from their senses, from
the
activity of people around them. So yeah, it's
it's really,
like,
so many gifts that nature gives to children,
(19:42):
gives to all of us in terms
of our behaviors,
our our sense of self, just how we
get along in the world.
Well, two things are really coming to mind
that you're offering to me. One of them
is this sense of self and this sense
of
being
in something larger than yourself, which
when you step out into nature, whether wherever
(20:04):
you're at are whether you're looking at the
stars, you're looking at any aspect of being
outside
in nature
with
nature, you are ego steps away, drops away.
Right? So it's about you being part of
something, not at all being about you, which
is such an issue in this society that
we live in. Right? It's all about me.
(20:25):
I need to be happy. I need to
be this. I need to be that. And
so that, like, is so, so coming to
mind on this. And then I wanna talk
metaphor with you. So but but but respond
to let's talk about this greater sense of,
you know, being part of something bigger. Because
you've got this big smile on your face,
and I love it. Georgie,
hitting on a topic that I've been writing
about for the last six months, and my
(20:47):
next book is on
the spiritual dimensions
of connectedness to nature for children.
And one of the,
I guess,
themes that run throughout the whole book, it
is that idea of decentering the self, or
losing that sense of self because you're a
part of something so much bigger, so much
(21:09):
a place, so much full of wonder.
You know, we often talk about how nature
fills us with this sense of wonder,
and especially for children, young children, where everything
is new, but the greatest wonder of all
that comes almost like an
at some point,
it's the wonder of being a part of
(21:30):
all of this around us. I mean, what
what could be more
wonderful than that, than that realization?
And it's true, when we are so caught
up in ourselves, our world is small. We
might think it's very, very important, but in
the grand scheme of things and the way
we can have such a much, much bigger
(21:51):
world,
it is that sense of oneness, the knowing.
It's all connected, and we're a part of
it.
You offered the word gift before, and what
occurs to me is that the gift and
the connection with anxiety and the connection with
the calm
and the resetting of your body, your of
your body and your mind from, you know,
(22:13):
stepping out of
the stressful environment
and the the gift of literally the gift
of not having to be the center of
it.
Like to be able to not have to
focus on yourself
and to be in wonder and in awe
for any age for, but for children to
give them that gift so that it becomes
a practice
(22:33):
and that they know the result,
the bonus, the benefit
of that experience.
So we'll reach for it. We'll reach to
a connection in nature as a natural practice,
as opposed to having to figure it out
later in life. Right? And undo stuff, unlearn
stuff.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. And and another gift that
(22:54):
nature gives is that sense of belonging,
so you feel a part of it and
that our need as humans to belong, the
nature gives us so much of that feeling.
I belong. You know, nature is our natural
habitat. We know plants and animals do so
much better in their natural habitat. Well, so
do we, as humans. Nature
(23:15):
is our natural habitat. That's where we can
bloom the best.
You know, it's making me think of, like,
I'm literally picturing myself or feeling myself, you
know, standing
out in a garden or whatever or in
the woods.
And over my feet, there's ants walking across
me, and the wind is blowing, and the
sun is like and the plant the tree
(23:36):
is touching me, and I am in it.
Like, I am and I belong.
Right? Like, that's what you're saying. Like, instead
of putting yourself in a space that's not
part of where you belong,
to imagine it instead is that this is
where I like, this is comfortable. This is
I'm in it. I don't own it. I
don't control it. I don't need to control
it.
(23:56):
And one thing about nature, it is nondiscriminatory.
It does not discriminate
against certain kinds of people, certain age of
people, certain abilities. It simply does not. And
I think that adds to that sense of
comfort
and belonging.
Nature doesn't discriminate.
Now even even more so in terms of
(24:17):
looking at a positive lens, you know, I'm
thinking about, like, you know, you always you
always hear these stories about how, your pet
or a farm animal, like someone who know
an animal, some some bit of wildlife, or
maybe it works with plants too, I imagine
it does,
who know you, sense you and what you
need.
So it actually is more
positively responsive.
(24:38):
Right? It's not just that everyone's accepted, it's
that you're even more accepted
if if there's
if if they sense a sense of sadness
or weakness or something. Right?
Absolutely.
Yes.
Yes. That's very true. You know, and more
and more
scholars who are writing about the nature human
connection
(24:59):
are
pointing out the reality of reciprocity,
sometimes think of ourselves as humans, well we
have a responsibility
to take care of nature. Well, it's not
one way. Nature takes care of us as
well. It's a back and forth. I love
that idea of reciprocity.
It's a relationship.
(25:20):
Say more, like, give us some examples because
this is such a beautiful construct that we
need to, like, sort of feel it. So
what's coming to mind? What are some examples
of the reciprocity that come to mind?
Well, obviously,
when we take care of a tomato plant,
if conditions are right, the plant produces the
(25:41):
tomato for us to eat. So that's a
very easy way to look at reciprocity.
But there's also the idea of let's see
how I might say that, of being
accepted,
and I know I've already talked about that,
but being with rather than separate from. For
example, two days ago, I went out for
(26:03):
a hike just outside of my neighborhood where
we've got some beautiful hiking trails, and it
was windy. Sometimes
I avoid a hike if it's windy,
but on that particular day, I felt invited.
I actually felt invited to be out with
the wind rather than in the wind.
And so my whole
(26:25):
focus as I was hiking, it was on
this give and take. It was the invitation
to be out there I felt
in and with. So you weren't fighting it.
You weren't, like, struggling with, oh, and and
and being upset by it. It was all
positive energy
that you're in it.
And that I imagine, like, your body was
(26:45):
moving with it and joyfully not fighting it.
Yeah. So when the wind was behind my
back to feel that, you know, hey. I'm
being moved along with the wind by having
it blow through my hair. What a wonderful
experience. Another example, I once was doing a
workshop with some teachers. And when I have
done workshops, I always want it to be
(27:08):
hands on, action oriented rather than just talk,
talk, talk. Mhmm. So I had some outdoor
activities planned for the teachers. It rained that
day.
And so I gave the teachers an option,
I said, okay,
I know some of you would prefer not
getting wet in the rain, but if there
are some of you who want to go
out,
(27:29):
here's an activity you might do. About one
third of the teachers decided, yeah, let's just
do that. And when they came back in
and reported to the others,
the first comment they made was, that was
so much fun. Right? So in terms of
reciprocity,
you know, the teachers were putting themselves out
to be in this rainy weather. But in
(27:51):
the meantime, the rain was enriching them in
such a fun, delightful way.
You know, you remind me of the and
I've noticed this a lot, lady, and it's
not a new thing. It's just, you know,
what you notice grows, right? And I've just
noticed, and I'm judging, there's a judgment call,
but too often,
people make comments and even children. The other
(28:12):
day, like a child who was probably, I
think, 11 or 12
commented, or, and adults do this, on someone
else's behavior being childish
or infantile or not adult enough
and their behavior. And I, I could just
go with it, but I don't. And I
push back and I'm like,
but what makes only a child allowed to
(28:34):
have fun, you know, going out and being
in the rain? Why is that
a bad why do you have to stop
having fun when you grow up? And this
is not a new a new topic. I
mean, this is a big but I think
we don't talk about it enough, and we're
not giving ourselves permission. And your story is
perfect. Right? So, like, these teachers had the
chance to get out of the classroom and
out of their studies and go play in
(28:56):
the rain and jump in a puddle and
see what the world is like when it's
wet, which is different. Right? And their comment
when they got back was
not feeling guilty
that they had had fun, but joyful they
had had fun. So go with that whole
thing of of this child versus adult behavior.
Exactly. Now that sense of wonder and,
(29:19):
Rachel Carson, you know, who was a scientist?
Yeah. It was a lot of warnings about
pesticides in the environment, but she also was
so tuned into how children
know the world of nature.
So she wrote the book,
let's see, what's it called?
Sense of Wonder. Right. And I just learned
about that, and I think that it's it's
(29:39):
a bummer that she is so known for
alerting us of all the dangers
and that she isn't recognized. So I'm so
happy you just brought that up. Like, she
was so in love with nature in such
a positive way. That's why she was alerting
us. Don't ruin nature.
We need it. She writes she writes in
that book that's one of the greatest gifts
we can give to children
(30:00):
is to keep that sense of wonder alive,
but then
she also says it's to our great misfortune
that for many of us, as we get
older,
that sense of wonder diminishes,
and thus our quality of life diminishes.
So she points out that, that what usually
happens,
(30:21):
that wonderful
thing that we have called wonder
tends to diminish,
but fortunately we can renew that, and that's
something I've always pointed out to teachers. You
yourself
have to be connected with nature
in order to connect the children or to
keep the children's sense of wonder alive. You
(30:44):
need to pay attention to your own sense
of wonder.
Absolutely. So I have to share sort of
how I got here in this conversation with
you also, and I just wanna hear your
thoughts on it. I have studied spent my
life, I've realized, studying the impact of things
on society and on behavior. Technology,
I did technology for a while, business,
marketing, and then I studied religion and the
(31:06):
impact of religion on society for quite a
while. I got a master's in it. And
what I realized
was something really
core, which is that religion has this huge
advantage of that it has an important part
of it that is repetitive.
So you are not only
you know, in this day and age, we're
supposed to learn something here at once,
(31:29):
learn it. We get judged. We're like, what
do you mean you don't remember? What do
you mean you don't like? We met before
you heard this before you. You heard the
story. I told you this one time. Like,
we need to rewire our brain after it's
heard because it's heard things numerous times or
learned things numerous times. We're the and the
one of the few places
that that happens and is accepted
(31:50):
and is promoted is in religion. We read
the same things for for thousands of years.
Right? The same stories. We interpret them. We
build these neural pathways
around these specific stories. And I realized that
the other place I knew that that happened
was in parent child or teacher child or
com or children's reading. And and I miss
(32:11):
those days when I had little kids, and
I would read the same story over and
over again. Sing the story, you tell it
a different way, whatever it is. It's the
same. And those are the stories that are
remembered forever.
Those are the memories. Right? Because you're telling
them again. You're repeating them. You're talking about
them. So that got me into wanting to
write children's books,
young children's books that kids will read with
(32:32):
their parents over and over again
so that they're both in the game. They're
both experiencing the wonder
and they're continuing to experience it by talking
about it. And they're carrying the metaphor, the
nature metaphor that comes with my resilience gone
wild work
forward so that that stays
in in their life, you know, as as
(32:52):
their future of wonder.
Yeah. So I just wanted to, like, you
know, that's where I come from that I
got here in terms of wanting to have
this conversation with you and wanting to go
into focusing on children and and parent child
relationship
and how we can help both the child
and the parent. So what what's coming up
for you on that?
Well, I remember reading one study when I
(33:14):
was working for the research library, and it
was a parent with about a three year
old daughter, and their conversation
as they were at a nature center so
they were outside on the grounds at a
nature center and how rich the interaction was
between the two, so different than what they
had observed when they were indoors just looking
(33:35):
at the exhibit,
the exhibits inside. It was just entirely different.
There was, as you mentioned earlier, so many
different sights and sounds and feels going on,
so it also enriches
the interaction between the two. And other cities
will back that same thing up, that the,
(33:56):
I guess, family enrichment part of nature,
that is very, very real.
But, Jessica, when you said something about the
repetition
in terms of
what we often do in religious settings,
Richard Parson talks about the repeated refrains of
nature. Mhmm.
From season to season,
(34:17):
from birth to death. There are certain refrains
that we notice over and over again.
You know, the waves going in and out.
Just,
difference between day and night, the movement of
the clouds, and so many repeated
refrains,
and how that can be a part of
not just our cognitive learning,
(34:39):
but the calmness,
that,
sense of wonder, and the and that sense
of just reassurance.
Life goes on.
And it's comforting
to
to to go through a rhythm
and and and repeat a rhythm and to
hit a new stage of the rhythm that
you've been at before.
(35:00):
Like, we we are comforted by
things that are familiar. Right? So and building
on them. So it gets to my you
know, I I love exploring time,
and time goes with rhythm. And we live
in this, like, crazy busy
busyness focused
world
where we we aren't about any natural rhythms
anymore. Right? Like, the we don't go to
(35:21):
sleep when it gets dark. We don't get
up when it gets light. We go out
can we go to sleep and get up
when our alarm or our clock tells us
to? And we just run, run, run, run,
run, and we don't there's not in any
way connected to the
natural, comforting,
wonder filled rhythms
of nature and time. So you have this
another big smile. Like, you get you're, like,
(35:42):
so in the same pathway as me on
this. Right?
Well, I just read something about a naturalist
saying, we need to do, we need to
enter more into botanical time. Many things grow
rather slowly. We need to become more in
sync with that botanical time.
I love that. Yes. Watching the grass grow
(36:02):
is actually a beautiful thing. Right?
Beautiful thing. Yes.
Yeah. I mean,
slowing down. It's it's interesting. I've gotten recently,
I've gotten into and I I actually can't
remember. I don't know if it's I can't
remember what the term is, but and you
might you might know it, but the closer
you get to something and look more closely
at it and more
(36:23):
intimately at it, it gets more and more
complicated, more complex, the underlying so that, you
know, watching grass grow from afar
might not look like there's any change. But
if you look at grass growing close-up,
there's movement. Right? Like and it's about how
intensely you actually focus and don't get distracted.
(36:44):
So
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
We need to spend more time just being
there. Yeah. And looking at the small things
because
they there is movement. There is change. There
is
something to experience.
There's a story happening.
There's not a lack of change and a
lack of movement. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
(37:05):
So so I wanna ask you about metaphor
because metaphor is a very child connected, like,
nature metaphors and metaphors are very
are used often in children with teaching children
and in teaching.
And, you know, as a psych psychologist and
a coach, you know, metaphors are really helpful
to us because
they allow
a big part of what metaphors do is
(37:26):
they allow you to approach a topic that's
very difficult
to approach in its actual language. Like, if
you're
struggling with fear of something, if you talk
about the actual fear of the thing, it's
much harder than if you if you come
up with a metaphor that's like it, and
then it's easier to talk about. If you
worry about protection and instead,
(37:48):
you talk about a turtle shell, You know,
there's that the whole nature metaphor. And I
am obsessed with nature metaphors because I don't
like violent metaphors, which we use tremendously,
war based metaphors in our language today.
It's just constant, and
it trigger you know, your head acts differently
when you hear a violence based metaphor rather
(38:09):
than a nature based metaphor. It's just your
brain is in a different place
when you use different language. Right? So, you
know, since I'm pretty obsessed with this resilience
gone wild thing being about offering metaphors
for people to
grab onto and use to build resilience, give
them, you know, hints to how to be
more resilient, what's coming up for you about
(38:30):
nation metaphors? I imagine that that's part of
some of the teaching you've done. Well, children's
literature
is so often filled with metaphors. So anybody
who's looking for
beautiful
metaphors,
go to children's literature.
Right? Yeah.
I just reread the book, a children's book
(38:51):
called The Other Way to Listen. We immediately
think, listen, that's something we do with our
ears.
Our heads involved too, our mind, but the
other way to listen,
it's more about being present. So
the little girl in the story
wants to be able to hear things that
(39:12):
the older man in the story hears.
He can hear
the seeds bursting open underground.
He can hear the rocks
humming.
And so the little girl says, well, teach
me how to do that. And he reminds
her, I can't
teach you.
You need to just be there and give
(39:34):
yourself
lots of time,
and be very quiet and attentive.
And of course, in the end, she also
hears things like the corn singing. So that
other way to listen in a sense is
a metaphor
because it's not the hearing with the ears.
It's a different kind of
(39:55):
taking in the messages.
I love that. It's so important. It's a
different way to take in the messages and
you get to choose, but you have to
practice it. And I think about it, like,
I'm a big fan of
of focusing any any single sense on a
channel of input.
So,
you know, if you're underwater,
you can and you're you're snorkeling, you can
(40:17):
either hear or scuba dive. You can hear
the bubbles of your of your
tank, or you can hear your yourself, or
you can listen for
the fish making noise, which they do. Like,
there's a channel. If I'm, you know, I
I so often, like, you know, I'm at
the on the ocean. I can either hear
the ocean and choose to just channel my
listening
to the ocean or a bird or some
(40:39):
single channel, or I can say I can't
hear it because there's this human noise that's
disruptive.
Right? So, you know,
it it's such a beautiful thing to practice.
Yes. Well, when I was out with the
wind the other day Yes.
I tuned into the sound of the wind
than just tuning into ideas in my head.
(40:59):
It was, I am really listening to the
wind.
So the wind as it moved through the
future I live in New Mexico, so we
don't have a lot of trees where I
live, but even the bushes and the grasses,
to hear the wind move through that,
hear the wind as it rustles past my
ear. I mean, it's it's just a a
(41:21):
beautiful way of tuning into nature is by
being there and tuning other things out.
Including yourself. We get back to that issue
of, like, you're not in this. You're Right.
Right. It's not about you.
Right. For me, it was all about the
wind. It's so beautiful. I love it. Okay,
Ruth. So
(41:41):
where are we? Let
where what do you think like, now we've
had this conversation for a while.
Absolutely
just makes my heart sing.
Words of wisdom. Like, where what do we
do?
Give us some
some, like, quick things we can do and
some longer things we can do to make
this
(42:01):
to fix this problem of nature deficiency and
to get people to wake up to how
important it is, which is some simple things
that we can do differently.
One is
truly
go
outdoors
in an
unhurried
way.
So, it's more than getting from your front
door to your car.
It is spending time outdoors, whether you are
(42:23):
a walker, a hiker, you go fishing, or
if you're a gardener, but to
increase that time for at least a little
bit in a very unhurried
way.
You don't get to
develop a relationship
unless you invest time and attention to it.
And we want we yearn for that relationship
(42:45):
with nature. It's built into our DNA.
It's called biophilia,
love of nature.
But if we ignore it long enough,
just as you if you ignore
a somebody you love, ignore them long enough,
that that sense of connection
diminishes.
That relationship
to be strong and contribute to you quality
(43:08):
of life, spend time, focus on it. So
that's one thing That's why I say that
I keep hearing, consistently
that
anyone who recommends that and then they do
it sort of as an activity in their
in their job or whatever, they've never heard
anyone say,
I didn't like that. Everyone's right? Like, nobody's
ever said
they wanted to stop or they didn't enjoy
(43:29):
it. They wanted more of it. So, you
know, we need to give ourselves that gift
of just stepping in another minute and another
minute, another minute and time disappears
and joy comes. Right? Joy and wonder.
Exactly. Yes. Another thing that some people might
enjoy, and I've done it for years, is
journaling
to actually
(43:50):
record some of not just what you see
and hear, but how you feel.
How did you feel
when you hiked with the wind?
How did you feel when you saw that
strawberry
beginning to ripen? How did you feel about
that? So journaling.
And another thing that I had some students
(44:11):
do, college students, is write their ecological
story.
An ecological
autobiography.
That's been very powerful for some of us
too. Oh, tell me. I don't know what
that is. Tell me what that is. This
sounds amazing.
The story
of your memoir
or your autobiography
focusing on your relationship with nature.
(44:32):
So when you were a very young child,
what did you do in nature? What did
you experience? What insights did you have as
you got a little bit older? How did
that change? Where are you today in that
relationship?
I mean, when I go back to some
of my journals and my own ecological autobiography,
I find I wrote things like
(44:52):
color of my soul green.
And by journaling, you get to read it
again, so you get to live it again.
And there's something about another gift of nature,
once you have that moment of wonder or
you receive that special
joy,
you can revisit it.
(45:13):
So it is there to go back to
again,
and if you write it down,
you might be surprised,
especially date it, and then look, three years
ago, what was I doing on March 24
'5 years ago? I can go back and
and look, and I'm sometimes,
it reaffirms
my relationship with nature and how much it
(45:34):
means to me, and sometimes it surprises me,
like, oh my gosh, I I thought of
that ten years ago.
So there is something about writing it down,
but that idea of an ecological autobiography,
seeing over time
how you progressed in that relationship. And even
if you start small and you do it
for a week, Right? Like, how how are
(45:56):
you different from once you're paying attention to
something, it grows. Right? So from Monday to
to Friday,
how has your thinking about nature and your
feeling nature changed?
Right. Right.
You learn something about nature, and you certainly
learn something about yourself.
Yeah. That's beautiful. I love it. Okay, Ruth.
So we're I know you've retired recently
(46:18):
from but that that's only a formality, I
think, the language of retirement. So you've closed
one door. I'm sure others are opening. I'm
actually going to the Children's in Nature Network
conference, which I'm so excited about. And I
know you've been there in, Minnesota this this,
this May. And I'm just so excited to
get more and more into this world of
children. So where what are you doing next?
(46:40):
You've got this life
incredible
life's gift that you've given us.
I am writing, and I'm almost finished with
it, another book, and this one is Spirituality.
I can't wait to read it. I'm so
excited.
Was on the spiritual dimensions of our connectedness
with nature, but looking specifically at children. And
(47:01):
I already realized I can't put everything in
this book that I want to, so I
started a proposal for another book that broadens
it not just to children, but
to all. Oh, I can't wait to read
it. Yay. I'm so excited. No. Gee. I
I I'm 82 years old, so when I
actually retire, I'm not sure when that's going
to happen. No. There's no that's what I'm
(47:22):
saying. It's a it's a bit of language
that just says I moved on from one
from one chapter to the next. Right?
Right. Right. Yes.
So that's what I'm I'm doing, and I
continue to hike and write some poetry and
yeah. And just to put it out there
that you're out there at 82 years old
hiking and writing poetry and writing new books
and feeling the wind and all this joy
(47:45):
because you've stayed healthy by being in nature.
Right? Like, you're out there doing. So
you're an inspiration. You're a role model. You're
my man. Honestly like a really powerful mentor
for me. Thank you. I'm so happy to
have you in my life newly in my
life, and thank you for sharing this joy
with us.
Thank you for reaching out to me. I
love the conversation.
I can't wait to keep it going. Thank
(48:06):
you, Ruth, so much. Any last word of
wisdom you wanna just sort of just one
liners that you you gave your teachers at
the end of their sessions? It's go out
and do it. Be true to yourself, your
authentic self. You are a part of nature.
That nature is your natural habitat. That is
where you will blossom and take others with
(48:29):
you.
I love that. That's my joy. Take others
with you. Thank you so much, Ruth. I
will I will see you soon and be
in touch. Thank
you.
This has been a production of BLI Studios
(48:50):
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
Anything else to add, Miles?
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