February 13, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of Resilience Gone Wild, host Jessica Morgenthal sits down with Andrew Lewin, marine biologist and host of the podcast How to Protect Our Ocean. Andrew shares his journey from working in marine science to becoming a leading voice in science communication, making complex ocean conservation topics accessible and engaging for the public.
The conversation explores the evolution of science storytelling, the impact of the BP oil spill, and how technology has revolutionized environmental awareness. Andrew emphasizes the power of community-driven conservation efforts and encourages listeners to take small, actionable steps to protect our oceans. Through engaging stories and practical advice, this episode will leave you feeling empowered to make a difference, no matter how small.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hey.
Andrew Lew and I am so excited that
you're here. Andrew and I met,
not that long ago on LinkedIn, which is
my source of a lot of amazing people
that I've gotten to just these magnificent conversations
with. And we've tried to record a couple
times and are finally
maybe gonna actually record an episode Yes. As
(00:26):
opposed to getting to some just great conversation
that
is more interesting to us than than makes
sense for for,
launching as a podcast. So,
thank you for joining me,
and
we are,
going to hear
Andrew's story, which launched him
into this incredible career and,
(00:46):
purpose that he has. And he's surprising me,
so I don't know what it is yet.
But Andrew is,
a podcaster extraordinary
extraordinary
of,
a protect the ocean,
world that we need to really focus on.
So I'm gonna let Edu tell us about
a little bit about himself and this amazing
(01:08):
story and what we can learn from you.
So thank you. Welcome.
Well, thank you very much, Jessica. So happy
to be here, and I'm very excited to
to to be able to finally do this.
We we did have a conversation last time.
I think I made it to one of
your podcasts, like a just a little bit
of an introduction. And then, we had a
great conversation probably about an hour before that,
which was phenomenal.
So I'm really happy to be on the
(01:29):
podcast, today. I'm, I'm Andrew Lewin. I'm a
podcaster, but I'm a science communicator, really, that
uses podcasting and video podcasting
as a method to reach to the people
to say, Hey, you know what? There's some
stuff going on in the ocean that you
may or may not know about, but I
think is really cool. And there's some great
people that are in there. And I want
you to get to know them just like
(01:49):
I got to know them. And I think
it'll provide them with a lot more hope.
You know, the audience that is when you
hear some of these stories and some of
these projects that are going on. And of
course the people that are, that are doing
that, not everybody is a Jacques Cousteau, not
everybody is a Silviro that gets to be
on camera, want to be on camera, but
they want to talk about their projects. And
that's what I truly,
(02:09):
love about this. And, you know,
the story
that I've, that I came here to tell
was really,
it's got me to really want to talk
about science because I want to just
preface the story before is like, when I
first started in a science, like my science
career, after I graduated in 02/2001,
people didn't really talk. Scientists didn't talk about
(02:31):
science. They didn't really talk. They didn't trust
journalists. It was really in the climate denial
phase of of climate change.
And so many of the scientists were going
out talking about important check. So that was
the climate denial phase
twenty years ago.
Are are we in a different place? Please
build that into this story. Okay? Because you're,
(02:52):
you know, such the expert on hearing the
voices out there.
Well, I feel like the climate denial was
coming more from at that time, was coming
more from, like, the oil and gas industry.
And they're using those messages in their PR
firms. I feel like now it's like, yeah,
climate change is here, but there's nothing we
can do about it. I feel like that's
where that the that's the message that seems
(03:12):
to be coming out at this point in
time, which is false. Of course, both of
those are false. So, but yeah, sorry to
get back to it. So we were in
that, that situation and, and a lot of
the scientists on you had gone on to
speak to reporters and journalists
and some of them, not all, but some
of them had their words mixed up and
by the journalists and it made it just
manipulated the conversation
(03:33):
to do something that they didn't want to
say. And in science, like you're, you're very
abrupt and like science is science. You know,
you do a study, you may think that
you're getting it one outcome and you get
a different outcome. And that may not be
the outcome that you wanted, but it's the
one that you had. And that's just the
way it goes. And you have to interpret
the science based off of that and be
like, yeah, I was wrong. And that's fine.
(03:54):
There's nothing wrong with being, being wrong in
science. That's, that's the reason why we do
science. And so there were a lot of
people who were very skeptical about talking to
journalists.
So we didn't really talk about it. And
we weren't as a scientist growing up, like
becoming a scientist as
as a student, you weren't really told, Hey,
you know what? You should talk to the
media all the time. You should, you should
(04:15):
discuss your science. And of course this was
before Facebook. This was before, you know, Instagram,
TikTok, Snapchat, whatever we have, YouTube even. And
so it just didn't happen all the time.
Then we started to, you know, get into
02/2006 and 2010 and so, so forth. And
then, I started to really start to, you
know, using Facebook for just little things, you
(04:35):
know, social media for little things, connecting with
your family and looking at friends that you
haven't seen and finding friends you haven't seen
since grade school and stuff. And it was
fun. It was it was a good time
to do that. Never had I thought that,
oh, this is a way to get things
out here. Like, this is a way to
start discussing and and idea what social media
was gonna offer us. No clue.
Says stick communication. Right? Like Exactly. That's so
(04:57):
interesting. Like, it did not occur that is
such a recent
story that you're talking about. I mean, it's,
like, less than twenty years, fifteen years ago.
Yeah. It was still a time when science
wasn't getting out
by the scientists.
Right. And it wasn't
common
conversation.
And
that that's, like, just so just sort of
(05:18):
a moment to stop and think about how
recent that is that Yeah. We've taken this
on and
so much has changed and that it has
impacted
and reversed climate to, to a certain extent,
climate denial, and now it's just led to
climate anxiety, which I'll ask you to talk
about as well. Right? Like, so much information.
So much information. Code.
(05:39):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and of course at that
time, I still hadn't really, it still hadn't
clicked. I was still trying to launch my
career as a marine biologist living in Ontario.
So I was trying to find ways to
work and,
and find my path sort of thing. I
worked in private consulting. I worked in nonprofit
organizations and I just couldn't find
my way through.
(05:59):
And then the BP oil spill happened, you
know, in the Gulf Of Mexico and the
world, in my world, it basically stopped being
like, Oh my gosh. Now I had, I
worked in Louisiana
my first job coming out for the state
institution called LUMCON, Louisiana University's Marine Consortium. I
was in the Gulf Of Mexico a lot.
I met a lot of people in Louisiana
who lived off
(06:20):
of fisheries, different types of fisheries in, in
hunting and so forth in the Gulf Of
Mexico.
That was all gone. You know, it was
devastating to a lot of people. So I
felt like I had a little bit of
my heartstrings tugged on that one because I
knew people who were affected and I lived
there, even though it was only for like
eight months, I still kept in contact with
people. And it was, it was tough for
(06:41):
me to, to grasp of like what was
going to happen. And I couldn't even just
imagine what the people there felt like. And
nobody really could either at the time you
hear of another oil spill, you're like, Oh,
this is awful. The animals are awful. I
mean, there were
like
crazy imagery coming out and this is what
really kicked it off.
It was not only just the imagery, it
(07:02):
was scientists that were going down to The
Gulf Of Mexico and they were working in
partnership with CNN
and they were going on because at first
it started off, they were going on Twitter.
Now Twitter was exploding at this point and
what people were doing, the scientists were going
down to the Gulf Of Mexico. They either
lived in California, New York. Carl Safina went
down, Wallace J. Nichols, may he rest in
peace. He went down,
they went down and they filmed what they
(07:24):
were seeing. You could see the tarballs coming
onto
the beach where you really got to see
what it was like. Then CNN was like,
Hey, do you want to be like a,
in the field reporter for us? Cause you're
an expert and you can just kind of
go on. And they had these profiles of
people and I was like, oh, that is
really cool. Like, I am seeing this. I
trust this person. I know this person and
(07:45):
I trust this person. And Carl Safina was
like iconic and he still is, but like
he was an icon back then.
And you're just like, oh my gosh. Like,
this is amazing. I,
you know, get to see what's really happening
down there. And they're on the ground across
the field.
Important point. Andrew, you make, like, a really
important point, like, that we hopefully can get
to at some point.
(08:05):
Specifically, like, to that if you aren't able
to to be
in person,
like,
physically, emotionally
in the story, in nature,
in the
the seeing the challenges of nature as well
as
the beauty of nature, like, if you're not
in it Mhmm. How do you
(08:26):
get a feeling that it's important and that
it matters and that you need to not
just sort of move by as a as
a fictional novel
and
and present it doesn't matter. So you know?
A %. I completely agree. And and I
think even before that, before, like, Facebook and
Twitter started to explode, we had blogs, right?
(08:46):
The deep sea news science, Southern fried science,
a lot of other marine focused science and
wildlife focused science was there, but you were,
you were reading it. You didn't necessarily always
see the picture. You didn't see any video
because video sharing wasn't very popular back then.
This was really the first time people got
to see an oil spill in person that
wasn't broadcasted
on a major network channel. And it was
(09:08):
just online and we got to see it
and it was raw. It wasn't like very
well produced. It was raw and it was
just that. And it was phenomenal. People were
just like, Oh my gosh.
And everybody said, this sucks. Like, this is
bad. You know, BP oil has to pay
for this. And they did $4.04 and a
half billion. We can argue the semantics of
whether it was enough or what have you.
(09:28):
And, and to be honest, even to this
day, this was what, twenty ten, twenty eleven,
even to this day, we're still seeing the
effects in the Gulf Of Mexico from that
oil spill.
And I'm not going to go into too
much detail because there was a lot of
detail to go into in terms of the
dispersants and all the chemicals that were put
in the disperses are just to hide the
oil from the surface. So we don't see
it. It's just, it was, it was awful.
(09:48):
Also, we should mention eleven people died in
that oil spill. So that
tragedy among tragedies within, within that. So, but
that's what really, I started to get that
feeling. And I went to Oceans Week in
Washington, DC. At that point, I wasn't working.
I didn't have a job. And I was,
I'm trying to do, I want to do
something. I talked to the people from like
Craig McLean from, Deep Sea News and,
(10:10):
Andrew Thaler from, from Southern Fry Science, they
had blogs. I'm like, Oh, maybe I should
start a blog. Maybe I should do something
about this.
Still hadn't really launched anything yet. And I
went to Oceans Week, Ciao. It's, it's in,
it's basically on parliament,
parliament, I shouldn't say parliament, at the like
the Congress and it's like a government thing
and you go and you, and there's all,
all of these side,
(10:31):
events and stuff. I got to National Geographic
and I got to meet Sylvia Earle. But
before I met Sylvia Earle, I got to
meet, Charlotte Vick and Charlotte has like,
I still credit to this day was a
mentor of mine, still is.
And
you know, she's retired
from
the area because she's done so much work
in this. She's the one who really
(10:52):
inspired me to go and do this type
of work. Cause she's like, this is what's
needed. And I was very passionate about it.
I was young at that time, so I
was very passionate. She's like, yes, I love
what you're doing. You know, you're a science
journalist. This is what we're going to introduce
you to Sylvia. We're going to introduce a
bunch of it. Charlotte was one of the
people who knew everybody and she would introduce
you to everybody. If you needed a contact,
she would give you a contact. Then I
(11:12):
was like, okay, a couple of years later,
I'm like, I'm just going to start, I'm
going to start a podcast. Like, like I
started video and that didn't really work out
very well at the time. It was a
lot of work. And then I'm like, well,
I can do a podcast. And that's kind
of how it worked. Like it just, I
got through Charlotte, through a lot of the
other contacts I got to speak to, and
my own, I got to speak to a
lot of the friends and people that I
(11:34):
met at conferences and got to hear their
stories of me asking questions. And I was
like,
this needs people need to know about this.
Because when I would speak to other people,
when I come home from the conference, I'd
speak to my wife, I'd speak to friends
and family.
I was like, this, this is really cool.
Like, this is really exciting. And people would
agree and like, why don't we hear about
this stuff? Cause it's not the sexy stuff
you want. It's not the shark attack. It's
(11:55):
not an oil spill. It's not a disaster
that people feed and they'll come to their
TV screens or now, you know, your internet
screens, your, your computer screens to click on,
or even your phone to, to tap on
it. This was the stuff that everybody needs
to know to give them hope and to
and to have, like, some ocean optimism
when it comes to to protecting the ocean.
Well, it was partly to protect the ocean.
(12:15):
And that's that was that is have you
always called it that? Is that always It
it started off as Speak Up for Blue
because I was I was the mouthpiece because
of where I was. I was in Ontario.
I couldn't really go out and like, I
didn't have the
ability to, like, go out to a coastline
and do a video right by the ocean,
you know, in a tropical setting where it
(12:36):
would get a lot of views or, go
to Hawaii and go do a dive and
talk to do a voiceover over that. I
would love to do that.
It's really hard to go diving in Ontario
in the winter. It's been done, but it's
really difficult. People could do some polar dips
all the time, but I just can't do
that. Even though I live along the Great
Lakes, it is, you know, it's, it's just
not the same. And so I, I decide,
(12:57):
you know what? I have this power of
the gab. I like to talk. And so
I'm like, let's just go ahead.
And somebody introduced me to podcasting and
I just, as soon as I got interested,
I'm like, I wonder if anybody else is
talking about oceans. And I started to look
at it and not many people were, and
some of the shows that were had been
defunctified for a while. And so I was
(13:18):
just like, okay, I'm, I'm going to start
this. If nobody's talking about it, I'm that
person. It's my entrepreneurial spirit. It's like, if
nobody's doing it, I'm going to start doing
it. And then, and then that's where I
am now. So it started off as Speak
Up for Blue. Then I moved it to
Speak Up for Ocean Blue because the, the,
on iTunes,
when, when iTunes was still around and you
want to look up a podcast,
the search was very literal. It had to
(13:39):
be in the title. So if I wanted
to, I wanted to rank well for Ocean
Blue.
Yeah. Just people didn't know what Speak Up
for Blue meant. So I'm like, oh, speak
up for the Ocean Blue. And then, I
really got into somebody talk to me. It's
like, why don't you just be very literal?
Like, what's your podcast about? Well, it's about
how to protect the ocean. I'm like,
how to protect the ocean. Yes. That's that's
what it was. So it's been like that
for about five or six years now. Okay.
(14:01):
So just, like, sort of to get the
story. So and to connect it to
get getting action to happen from Mhmm. Those
of us who might live in
landlocked areas even if landlocked even if you're
in a Great Lakes with one of the
greatest, you know, bodice water in the Yeah.
Sweetwater Ocean. Yeah. Right?
(14:21):
But
the grittiness, you know, like, the raw and
you use some of that language. Right? The
deep connection
that you made
with what was really happening and that you
shared with what was really happening. You know,
like, bringing the reality of on the ground,
in the water,
on the shore
voice for the ocean and the people who
(14:43):
were suffering and the nature that was suffering
and
giving the feeling in your voice, which has
so much,
you know, energy and and
Yeah. Thanks.
Oh, again, I mean, they with the word
like, so much to it that really carries
the message
to, like, make people feel like they're really
there without having to be there, which you
(15:04):
don't get from the written word the same
way. Right? You have to have a lot
of patience to be able to to bring
that poetry to life. Like, you're bring you're
brought into life in this really, really intimate
way with this beautiful energy. So thank you.
I I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Okay. So this was the beginning of, like,
this this pathway
(15:25):
to changing the world and giving us hope.
Okay.
So what's the lesson?
Well, the lesson here is, like, if you
really wanna do something,
just start it. You know, it was never
perfect, and it's still not perfect.
But I I really embrace it. There is
no perfect. There is no perfect. And I
I'm a, I'm a guy who likes to,
(15:47):
throw,
throw it up against, throw stuff up against
the wall, see what sticks. That's, that's really
what it comes down to. And that's what
I've done. I've, I've kind of fumbled through
things. There've been episodes that I've put up
where I'm like, that's not my best episode,
but I'm going to put it up because
I think the information is, is good. And,
and, and I've done it for, I think
today was my
(16:08):
seventeen
seventeen episode.
Okay. So 1,017 repeat that. Right? Like, because
it's my most I've been trying to I
can't catch up. Like, I've been trying to
to
to, like, just sort of and every episode
has its own magic. And just like I
hear with my 20 episodes, you know, people
say,
you know, that was my favorite even though
(16:29):
I was like, that was my least favorite.
They're like, oh, like, that was my favorite.
So you never know what's gonna happen. You
never know. You never know it. Really connect
with people. So Yep. 1,707
podcast
episodes from the beginning of podcasting
Yeah. From beginning of all this technology.
It's it's just heartwarming to to hear that
(16:50):
there's been this passion
to bring something so important
forward and to talk to 1,700 people plus
people. Right? And by the way, we were
just talking about the fact that we both
interviewed,
Andy DeHart, who's the head of CEO of
Loggerhead
And,
the the the crossover
(17:10):
in any world is amazing. So, like,
listen to an episode and they'll be listen
to a few, and you'll find something that
you did or you knew or whatever. Oh,
yeah.
Yeah. The connections, like I said before, is
it's
the, the space of marine biology and marine
conservation is very, is very small when you
get into it and you, and you start
and, and what's really nice is many of
(17:31):
the people are, are super collaborative, super friendly.
I think that's really what has come down
to these days. It never used to be
that way, but that's changed over the last
twenty years where people are just trying to
support each other. And that's what I've, that's
my message. My message
is to serve not only my audience, but
to serve the community. Like I want to
show your work. I want to talk about
(17:52):
your work because I think it's interesting.
And that's what I want other people to
feel like. Anyway, it was really interesting. One
of the people that I've interviewed, a good
friend of mine, David Shiffman, he's like, Andrew,
I love the way you interview.
You're so passionate.
Part of, like, there's a little bit of
envy that other people get to do this
(18:14):
cool stuff. But
my thing, and I used to be a
little bit like, Oh, I want after an
after an episode, like, I don't know if
you feel this way after you do an
interview, but I get really jacked up. I'm
like, I'm hyped up. I'm like, yeah, this
is so
cool. I'll go and I'll talk to people
about it. My wife's like, okay, okay. Settle
down a little bit. But I get, I
get really hyped up for it because I
get excited that this work is going on
(18:35):
and it used to be, I'm like, I
want to do the same thing. Now it's
like, no, I've just done
a service where I've taken that message and
I've taken whatever that person has learned and
whatever that's the struggles and the success of
that person went through. And I've put it
on the air. I've put it on a
platform that people can access for free. Right.
And that's really what it is. It's, it's,
(18:55):
that's what I love about podcasting. It's not
a radio show where it's nice and polished.
It's not NPR, which they do phenomenal shows,
right? CBC radio does it up here, but
some phenomenal shows, but they put hundreds of
thousands of dollars worth of it. It's crazy.
Yeah. And it's, and they're beautiful episodes. Like
they're really well done. The people who are
doing that are experts and they know what
they're doing in their field. They know how
(19:16):
to tell stories. They know how to do
all that stuff.
But for me, it's like, I just want
to talk about it. And everybody's like, why
don't you niche down to like a specific
ocean issue? I'm like, if I do that,
then I have to, then I can't talk
about the rest and I just can't do
that. And the reason I'm starting this is
to talk about every ocean issue because they're
all impacting each other and it's all cumulative
and we need to do something about it.
(19:38):
And I want to talk about not only
just that, I want to talk about everything.
And that's what I've been able to do.
And that's what I love about like this
being independent. It's just mine. I'm not part
of an organization. This is just me. That
is it's, it's a way for me to
keep doing what I love to do without
getting paid for it. Like I don't, it's
not my full time job. I do this
as an extra. And,
(19:59):
when I, like, I go to work, I
have a job that's like software development
and like, I work for a software development
company and
it's not anything I do here. So I
come home. This is my way to keep
connected as a marine biologist, as a scientist.
Sense of purpose. So you said so many
things that I found really interesting. I'm sure
other people do too. One of them was
(20:19):
that the that the environment changed from people
who
weren't quite into
collegiality
and and working together and being kind or
whatever. Like, that's amazing to me because I
thought our culture was kinda going our society
was kinda going going the other way. Mhmm.
It's still a very weird time,
of iciveness and all that. And you're like,
(20:40):
no. We've actually gotten to a to a
place where we're supportive. And can you talk
a little bit more about, like you know,
because we need that. Right? Like, the only
way
we're gonna get in this forward motion path
to make change happen and not just keep
talking about it Yeah. Is to bring change
the opportunity to change and to just take
the next step
(21:01):
to react you know, to to, to people
so they feel like they can do it.
So what what do you do about on
this? Well, I think I think
things have changed with technology and and the
new generations that are coming into the world
as scientists and as science communicators. Science communication
has become
a huge part of conservation
and every organization
(21:23):
is really focusing in on, on that type
of work.
You're seeing a lot more jobs for science
communicators, you know, science communication management,
head of communications, things like that. And a
lot of scientists are getting into that kind
of stuff. So I think the technology
of
social media has really helped people,
scientists be like, I want to share what
(21:43):
I do because it's cool. And so there'll
be in the lab or there'll be a
student or there'll be a graduate student or
undergraduate student, or they'll just be starting to
work and you get to see people do
really cool stuff and it's fun and it's
really interesting and people still want to learn.
And so I think that has taken down
the silos of the past. And what I
mean by silos is that
you see it in government all the time.
(22:03):
When I worked in government for the federal,
Department of Fisheries and Oceans, you saw it
like people in the same building
didn't know the work that other people were
doing, or even within the same department didn't
know what other
sections were doing because it's such a big
thing and they're not interacting all the time.
It's not necessarily their fault,
but that wasn't really encouraged to cross promote.
There weren't meetings going on. Like, what are
(22:24):
you working on? What are you working on?
What are you working
on? And then even in academia,
it's a competitive process. You're competing for a
lot of the same funding, same with nonprofit
organizations. You're competing for a lot of the
same funding. So you want that funding for
your institution or for your organization.
So you're trying to keep things like you
don't want to tell
(22:44):
project with the organization. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And
so it's it's it's very competitive. And as
the money got smaller, the pot of money
got smaller and the organization started to increase
in number, then it got real it's still,
and it's still not perfect. Like it's still
competitive. And, but there's less, there's not as,
there's more collaboration now than there used to
be from what I, and this is anecdotal,
but this is what I see. And I
(23:06):
guess a lot of the times too, for
what I do is I will see somebody
on social media talking about science and I'm
like, Oh, I want to talk to you.
I want you on my, like, do you
want to be on my podcast and talk
about this? And that's makes it easy. And
it also makes it easy too, to have
somebody on the podcast who's ready to talk
about stuff. You know, scientists, sometimes they're not
always, it takes a little bit of more
coaxing.
I've never had a problem with, with scientists
(23:27):
coming on and doing an interview. They've always
said they've had a great time. In fact,
one guy, Doctor. David Ebert known as the
Lost Shark guy had such a great time
that he, we started a podcast together called
Beyond Jaws, and it's still going on to
this day.
And so it got me at board meetings.
He's coming out to do a shark episode
with me. I know. I told him, I
was like, you gotta, you gotta reach out
to Jessica. Or I think you reached out
to him. He told me, I was like,
(23:47):
yeah, you gotta go on this. This is
a lot of fun.
And he's phenomenal. That interview can probably go
on for two hours because we talked all
the time and we really got along. He's
a good friend of mine now. And, and,
he's got such a great history, but he,
again, he's a guy who loves science. That's
all he, that's all he cares about. You
know, he cares about, I mean, he cares
about other, of course, people and everything, but
like he cares about work. He cares about
(24:09):
finding sharks and that's his passion.
In fact, we have
a series of video series coming out that
I, I just saw a new forte in
my world of editing, like, mini documentaries for
YouTube, and he's gonna put it on his
YouTube channel. That's gonna come out, like, soon.
But it's probably by the time this goes
up, this will bite. Wait. It'll be in
our in our show notes. That would be
fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be awesome.
(24:29):
To me, you're going down this path of,
like, and this energy like, all I see
is I'm looking at your, like, you know,
on Zoom. Like, I'm looking at, like, the
joy, the excitement.
And to me, it's this whole big sense
of purpose. Right? Like, you've given
people a chance to to sit in conversation
with you
without the boundaries of, you know, behave in
(24:50):
a controlled way and just be super passionate
and purposeful Mhmm. And, like, let it all
out. Right? So, like Mhmm. What are you
working on? Why is this important? You know,
share. Who do you need to work with
to make this happen? What's the first step?
What's the next right step that you could
take? So, you know, giving that,
agency, empowerment, whatever, to whoever
(25:12):
is
is hesitant
to take that step or hesitant to share
or hesitant to
get
big versus stay small and protected because they
they fear
their grant money might not get renewed or
whatever it is. Like, we live in sort
of a different place. Right? Like, the more
and I I a lot of grants actually
say who you're working with. Like Yeah. Who
(25:32):
how are you going to expand this and
scale it
and make this not just small? Because my
money needs to go farther than just this
one step.
So, like, all this sense of purpose is
really just bursting forth.
Well and and to be honest, like, you
know, I'd love to be funded. I'd love
to be paid to do this and do
this full time.
But when you have this type of freedom
where you can really you're not bound by
(25:54):
necessarily an organization. You're not bound by,
money that you like, I can only speak
on such and such, because this is what
I'm funded for. You have this ability to
talk about whatever you want. And it's, it's
a little bit exciting because I can do
whatever I want. I can go the pathway
wherever I want and I can explore. Sometimes
I go on a bit of an experiment
and sometimes it's great. And other times, no,
(26:14):
it's not so great. I recently started to
video podcast and put it on YouTube. I
basically just turned the camera on. That was
a bit difficult.
I wasn't, I wasn't used to it. I
used to just come in, I'd read an
article, I'd have a thought, and I'd be
like, okay, I'm gonna just sit down, press
record, and boom. I would just I just
blab as much as I could. You know,
I'd make some notes and stuff to to
make sure that I'm I'm staying on track
(26:34):
and I'm not renting. Dimensions. Right? And, like,
instead of it just being audio,
there's this whole multidimensional.
And I credit social media. You know what
I mean? Like, we can we can judge
and and talk about all the the horrible
additions to our world that social media has
created. Right? But, like, the fact that
people now have access to
(26:56):
short form or long form, but short form
honesty and
grit and
multi
multimedia
facet, you know, like, communication
and spontaneous communication. And and, you know, there's
some real downsides to when we're using alternate
facts, and it gets
confusing. But, like, to be able to you
(27:18):
know, for you to be as a resource
to the rest of us to just get
this stuff out there Yeah. And, like, start
sharing stuff that's important in all different,
channels
Yeah.
Is really,
gonna change. Right? It changes It changes things.
Yeah. It it democratizes
information.
(27:38):
And that can go sway either way. That
can sway to, like, as you mentioned, the
extreme bad, but it can also sway
to the good. And if you're just trying
to
change information or just get information out there.
When I was a kid, there was no
internet.
We didn't have internet in our home. I
don't think I had it until like mid
high school.
And that was, you had to, you went
to the library to get,
(28:00):
to get all your information, National Geographic magazines.
Was it the Encyclopedia Britannica?
You know, then there were, there were, Yeah,
you had everything. But like in my library
in Ontario, like in Toronto, there wasn't a
lot on oceans. There were pictures, like, it
was like these beautiful imagery of, of like
the Jacques Cousteau's taking it, but there wasn't
a lot of information on that I, that
(28:21):
I had access to. And It wasn't as
if I can go online and look at
other libraries and try and find that wasn't
around. You just get to call and you
have to figure out what you could, and,
and even books that were in,
the bookstore
weren't, and you didn't really buy as many
books back then. It was mostly library stuff,
But here I have the ability to talk
to somebody that's in Sri Lanka or to
(28:41):
talk to somebody that's in Puerto Rico or
to talk to somebody that's just like down
I have a neighbor down the street who
listens to my podcast and we discuss it
all the time.
It's amazing how you can get to so
many people.
And it's, that's the information that they needed
at that point in time. Like just, my,
my eight year old self is like screaming
right now at how easy it is to
(29:03):
get access to some of the information. And
as you mentioned, it can be good and
it can be bad, but I know that
the information I'm putting out is the best
that I can put out. You know, I've
had to correct myself a couple of times,
but it's the best that I can put
out.
And But it's, you know, to your point
of why this matters. It's creating a sense
of energy
Yeah. That we're energizing
(29:23):
for
and and Andrew gets tens of thousands of
listens per episode. So, like, you know, there's
people
being energized
to move forward and do something. Yeah. So,
like, you know, these small sound bites
are making a difference.
Yeah. So, you know, the the bottom line
sort of of taking your story
(29:44):
of
get in it. Like, go
into nature.
Go
be, you know,
whatever your purpose is or whatever you have
a feeling that you wanna pursue a connection
with in life, go go there. Like, go
do it. Don't just read about it or
or listen to it, but, like, go and
experience it so that you can be energized
(30:05):
to do something because you can now easily
do something. Yeah. You know? And and it's
not gonna be the thing that changes the
world, but it's gonna be a step.
Yeah. Right? And communication is huge. Like, just
getting the message out there instead of keeping
it small
Yeah. Is what others need. So %. I'm
I'm going with that. Go go with that.
Like, we're Well and I think too is,
(30:26):
like, as a student in science and marine
biology, you start to learn certain things and
some of them are heavy. Like you realize
that the ocean's in trouble and you realize
that there are a lot of cumulative effects.
And at the time we were like, climate
change is going to be, it's going to
be gnarly. It's going to be bad as
you get older and, and you're going to
see it. And it's so it felt twenty
years ago at that point felt so long,
you know, from, for now, but now we're
(30:48):
in it and
we're feeling the effects. There's, there's no doubt
about that. And so all the scientists that
were saying, yeah, we're really going to feel
the next twenty years. They were correct. You
know, as, as we can say it, even
though the deniers were like, no, though, that's,
that's going, you know, we're not going to
have like crazy wildfires and this and that.
Well, unfortunately, we do, but this is the
(31:08):
learning process that I want people to have
is, is the more that we know as
scientists and marine biologists, you start to
become more aware of the decisions that you
make, you know, at home, wherever you are,
inland, on the coast, offshore, it doesn't matter.
You're affecting the oceans. It's all connected. It's
all connected into one. And it's our biggest
resource that that's, that's, that makes our planet
(31:30):
sustainable to live.
And if we screw that up, we are
in trouble, Right. And we're in the midst
of screwing it up. And so we need
to learn. And that's why I keep it
open and I keep it honest and I
keep it transparent. And we also need to
do, and
the goal of the podcast is to inspire
(31:50):
people, the people in the audience. And I
used to just say one person
to change their life
in different ways. So it doesn't have to
be, you have to start, you have to
go back to school and do marine biology
and become marine biologist. We have a lot
of scientists.
We have tons of scientists.
What we need people to do is just
be like, okay, let's just look. What are
the major problems? Okay. Plastic pollution.
(32:10):
What can I cut down on? Or what,
you know, what can I do to help?
Even though it may not feel as significant,
the fact that you're thinking about the ocean
and everything you do when you go to
the convenience store and you're really thirsty and
that Gatorade bottle looks really good, or that
vitamin water looks really good. And you're like,
Oh, that looks really good. But it's in
a plastic bottle. You're like, No, maybe I'll
go buy the powdered version and then I'll
(32:31):
go have it at home. Like, it is
not a huge change and it's not going
to change the world tomorrow.
But what happens is the more we change
these different types of habits,
the better we get
at being a leader for the ocean
and protecting it. And then because then it
grows. And and ripple that message. Yeah. I
went to the store, and I didn't buy
(32:52):
the bottle.
Yeah. I refilled my cup, and I was
just as happy or even happier because I
didn't put chemicals in me or whatever it
happens. Right? Yeah. You have to be talking
about it, which is what you're doing. Like,
the more we talk about it, the
more energy there is around every step every
one of us takes. Yep.
And as a kid, going down and doing
that work, you know, being on the ground
(33:14):
and being exposed to something that at the
time you had no idea what was
was who would imagine Yeah. Impacted this time
you spent in Louisiana
just pursuing
a passion
Yeah. And then it changing your life and
and you're being able to explode this whole
important voice
Yeah. In every aspect of it. Right? And,
(33:34):
like, in terms of the oceans, the 1,707
episodes talk to 1,707
different issues around the ocean, which are all
all matter
And that's it. And, and, and to be
honest, like I've, I've had the, the opportunity
to hear back from, from a lot of
the, from some of the audience members and
(33:55):
some people have changed their lives. I had
a guy who was like a plumber in
Australia who like quit his job once he
found out about the plastic pollution and started
an organization where he went to clean up
beaches.
That doesn't happen every day. Like, I don't
expect that to happen every day, but that
was really cool to say, Oh, okay. The,
the information that you learned from the podcast
led you down that path. Another, another woman
(34:16):
that I Follow their purpose. I mean, I
would go,
right? Like, yeah, they obviously weren't happy doing
exactly what they were doing and decided like,
this is really, I'm really passionate about this.
And this is what I want to do.
Same thing with another woman who was, she
was a marine biologist and she had done
her,
undergrad. I think she may have done her
master's. And she went back to do a
PhD while listening to the podcast while she
(34:36):
was like on an oyster farm and she
didn't like it. And when it rained, she
put her earbuds in and she would listen
to it. And she's like, I'm miserable doing
this, but Hey, you know what? I can
go do this and I can go back
and do a PhD
and did a PhD at Duke University. And
I got to meet her in person and
she she's like, Oh, I recognize your voice.
And I'm like, Yeah, well,
the host. And she's like, Yeah, you're the
one who made me who, the reason why
(34:57):
I'm here. I'm like, What? That's ridiculous. I'm
like, tell me that story. And it makes
me feel good, like to, to know that
people are doing, are making these changes. Like,
I don't expect everybody to make these types
of changes, but these are, these are very
drastic changes, but
it's, it's nice to know that the words
are getting to people. Right. And now with
YouTube, hopefully the visuals are helping to get
to people.
(35:17):
And it's just the way you just got
to adapt to the way
people listen and or watch
your, your information and, and to be on
as many platforms as possible.
I like podcasting because it's, it's easier to
do.
YouTube is a little bit more
intense because there's, there's a lot of, there's
a lot of video editing to keep watchers
watching, but it's fun. It's it's I truly,
(35:40):
truly enjoy it, you know? And,
you know, I think that the dream for
me is if I can,
hook up with a, an organization to be
their social media manager, then that's,
that's what I would do, you know, and
and it's and because I've had all this
experience and and that's where that's where I'd
love to to head at some point, you
know, down the future. It can really help
(36:01):
change it. Whoever's listening, right, like, this is
your prize
for listening. Right? Like, getting connection
with with Angela and Ferb Exactly. Exactly. World.
So we have our opportunity there. Okay. Wrapping
it up, what's what's the message you wanna
leave us with that,
we'll we'll do more of that next step
(36:22):
of change for for anyone who's who's lucky
enough to be listening to this? Well, first
of all, thank you for having me on
the show. I would say the biggest thing
is when you start learning about some of
the issues that are that are hitting the
ocean hard, take a deep
breath. You know, we're not going to change
and we can't change it the next day.
It is a step process
(36:43):
and we are headed on the right steps
in some and others. We're headed backwards in
some areas.
But what the biggest thing is, is
the power of community. The power of the
numbers
will get you there, especially in democratic societies.
And the more, you know,
the better and more effective you can be
within that community
(37:04):
And just stay positive,
keep with the optimism,
and we will change it for the better.
And we'll get back to our place. The
other thing
I would say is,
the benefit of being truly sustainable and making
changes is usually benefit to your wallet and
your health.
In all, like, I haven't met one thing.
(37:26):
I haven't come across one thing that you
can go, like, if you want, you know,
to help your wallet and help climate change,
we'll move to a heat exchanger instead of
gas furnace.
You know, if you want to help climate
change as well, and if you can afford
it, get an EV. They're starting to come
down in price and they're starting to be
more and more available and there's more charging
stations available. And there's there, it's really handy.
(37:47):
And,
you know, in Canada, anyway, most of our
electric power comes from clean power. And so
it's getting, it's getting cleaner.
Those things help you in your wallet. If
you want to stay healthy, stay away from
single use plastics, especially water bottles. That stuff
gets into your body. And we're just, every
time you buy, you're basically telling the company
that it's making those
(38:08):
it's,
Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm agreeing that you
should do this because like, I'm supporting you
in doing this. By not buying it, then
they're eventually going to get the idea. And
the more people that don't buy it, the
better. Right? That's when they're really going to
change their thing. Cause they went from glass
to plastics because it was cheaper for them
and they make more money off of it.
That's the only reason.
Yeah.
(38:29):
Yeah. People
say that, oh, people like them more pick
up a glass Coke bottle and a plastic
Coke bottle and tell me which one you
like the most, because I'll be very surprised
if it's a plastic one. But that's the
thing is it's really take a deep breath,
you know, take one step at a time.
You're not gonna change the world tomorrow, but
together we can change the world one day.
And and and that's really what it comes
down to. Beautiful. What a beautiful way to
(38:52):
wrap it all up. Thank you so much,
Andrew. No problem. Thank you. One of my
mentors and heroes now.
Well, I appreciate it. I love
what
you're doing here. This is amazing. So, I'm
glad everybody's listening. Awesome. Yay. Thank you. Thank
you so much.
You bet.
(39:22):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(39:42):
Anything else to add, Miles?
Hey.
Andrew Lew and I am so excited that
you're here. Andrew and I met,
not that long ago on LinkedIn, which is
my source of a lot of amazing people
that I've gotten to just these magnificent conversations
with. And we've tried to record a couple
times and are finally
maybe gonna actually record an episode Yes. As
(00:26):
opposed to getting to some just great conversation
that
is more interesting to us than than makes
sense for for,
launching as a podcast. So,
thank you for joining me,
and
we are,
going to hear
Andrew's story, which launched him
into this incredible career and,
(00:46):
purpose that he has. And he's surprising me,
so I don't know what it is yet.
But Andrew is,
a podcaster extraordinary
extraordinary
of,
a protect the ocean,
world that we need to really focus on.
So I'm gonna let Edu tell us about
a little bit about himself and this amazing
(01:08):
story and what we can learn from you.
So thank you. Welcome.
Well, thank you very much, Jessica. So happy
to be here, and I'm very excited to
to to be able to finally do this.
We we did have a conversation last time.
I think I made it to one of
your podcasts, like a just a little bit
of an introduction. And then, we had a
great conversation probably about an hour before that,
which was phenomenal.
So I'm really happy to be on the
(01:29):
podcast, today. I'm, I'm Andrew Lewin. I'm a
podcaster, but I'm a science communicator, really, that
uses podcasting and video podcasting
as a method to reach to the people
to say, Hey, you know what? There's some
stuff going on in the ocean that you
may or may not know about, but I
think is really cool. And there's some great
people that are in there. And I want
you to get to know them just like
(01:49):
I got to know them. And I think
it'll provide them with a lot more hope.
You know, the audience that is when you
hear some of these stories and some of
these projects that are going on. And of
course the people that are, that are doing
that, not everybody is a Jacques Cousteau, not
everybody is a Silviro that gets to be
on camera, want to be on camera, but
they want to talk about their projects. And
that's what I truly,
(02:09):
love about this. And, you know,
the story
that I've, that I came here to tell
was really,
it's got me to really want to talk
about science because I want to just
preface the story before is like, when I
first started in a science, like my science
career, after I graduated in 02/2001,
people didn't really talk. Scientists didn't talk about
(02:31):
science. They didn't really talk. They didn't trust
journalists. It was really in the climate denial
phase of of climate change.
And so many of the scientists were going
out talking about important check. So that was
the climate denial phase
twenty years ago.
Are are we in a different place? Please
build that into this story. Okay? Because you're,
(02:52):
you know, such the expert on hearing the
voices out there.
Well, I feel like the climate denial was
coming more from at that time, was coming
more from, like, the oil and gas industry.
And they're using those messages in their PR
firms. I feel like now it's like, yeah,
climate change is here, but there's nothing we
can do about it. I feel like that's
where that the that's the message that seems
(03:12):
to be coming out at this point in
time, which is false. Of course, both of
those are false. So, but yeah, sorry to
get back to it. So we were in
that, that situation and, and a lot of
the scientists on you had gone on to
speak to reporters and journalists
and some of them, not all, but some
of them had their words mixed up and
by the journalists and it made it just
manipulated the conversation
(03:33):
to do something that they didn't want to
say. And in science, like you're, you're very
abrupt and like science is science. You know,
you do a study, you may think that
you're getting it one outcome and you get
a different outcome. And that may not be
the outcome that you wanted, but it's the
one that you had. And that's just the
way it goes. And you have to interpret
the science based off of that and be
like, yeah, I was wrong. And that's fine.
(03:54):
There's nothing wrong with being, being wrong in
science. That's, that's the reason why we do
science. And so there were a lot of
people who were very skeptical about talking to
journalists.
So we didn't really talk about it. And
we weren't as a scientist growing up, like
becoming a scientist as
as a student, you weren't really told, Hey,
you know what? You should talk to the
media all the time. You should, you should
(04:15):
discuss your science. And of course this was
before Facebook. This was before, you know, Instagram,
TikTok, Snapchat, whatever we have, YouTube even. And
so it just didn't happen all the time.
Then we started to, you know, get into
02/2006 and 2010 and so, so forth. And
then, I started to really start to, you
know, using Facebook for just little things, you
(04:35):
know, social media for little things, connecting with
your family and looking at friends that you
haven't seen and finding friends you haven't seen
since grade school and stuff. And it was
fun. It was it was a good time
to do that. Never had I thought that,
oh, this is a way to get things
out here. Like, this is a way to
start discussing and and idea what social media
was gonna offer us. No clue.
Says stick communication. Right? Like Exactly. That's so
(04:57):
interesting. Like, it did not occur that is
such a recent
story that you're talking about. I mean, it's,
like, less than twenty years, fifteen years ago.
Yeah. It was still a time when science
wasn't getting out
by the scientists.
Right. And it wasn't
common
conversation.
And
that that's, like, just so just sort of
(05:18):
a moment to stop and think about how
recent that is that Yeah. We've taken this
on and
so much has changed and that it has
impacted
and reversed climate to, to a certain extent,
climate denial, and now it's just led to
climate anxiety, which I'll ask you to talk
about as well. Right? Like, so much information.
So much information. Code.
(05:39):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and of course at that
time, I still hadn't really, it still hadn't
clicked. I was still trying to launch my
career as a marine biologist living in Ontario.
So I was trying to find ways to
work and,
and find my path sort of thing. I
worked in private consulting. I worked in nonprofit
organizations and I just couldn't find
my way through.
(05:59):
And then the BP oil spill happened, you
know, in the Gulf Of Mexico and the
world, in my world, it basically stopped being
like, Oh my gosh. Now I had, I
worked in Louisiana
my first job coming out for the state
institution called LUMCON, Louisiana University's Marine Consortium. I
was in the Gulf Of Mexico a lot.
I met a lot of people in Louisiana
who lived off
(06:20):
of fisheries, different types of fisheries in, in
hunting and so forth in the Gulf Of
Mexico.
That was all gone. You know, it was
devastating to a lot of people. So I
felt like I had a little bit of
my heartstrings tugged on that one because I
knew people who were affected and I lived
there, even though it was only for like
eight months, I still kept in contact with
people. And it was, it was tough for
(06:41):
me to, to grasp of like what was
going to happen. And I couldn't even just
imagine what the people there felt like. And
nobody really could either at the time you
hear of another oil spill, you're like, Oh,
this is awful. The animals are awful. I
mean, there were
like
crazy imagery coming out and this is what
really kicked it off.
It was not only just the imagery, it
(07:02):
was scientists that were going down to The
Gulf Of Mexico and they were working in
partnership with CNN
and they were going on because at first
it started off, they were going on Twitter.
Now Twitter was exploding at this point and
what people were doing, the scientists were going
down to the Gulf Of Mexico. They either
lived in California, New York. Carl Safina went
down, Wallace J. Nichols, may he rest in
peace. He went down,
they went down and they filmed what they
(07:24):
were seeing. You could see the tarballs coming
onto
the beach where you really got to see
what it was like. Then CNN was like,
Hey, do you want to be like a,
in the field reporter for us? Cause you're
an expert and you can just kind of
go on. And they had these profiles of
people and I was like, oh, that is
really cool. Like, I am seeing this. I
trust this person. I know this person and
(07:45):
I trust this person. And Carl Safina was
like iconic and he still is, but like
he was an icon back then.
And you're just like, oh my gosh. Like,
this is amazing. I,
you know, get to see what's really happening
down there. And they're on the ground across
the field.
Important point. Andrew, you make, like, a really
important point, like, that we hopefully can get
to at some point.
(08:05):
Specifically, like, to that if you aren't able
to to be
in person,
like,
physically, emotionally
in the story, in nature,
in the
the seeing the challenges of nature as well
as
the beauty of nature, like, if you're not
in it Mhmm. How do you
(08:26):
get a feeling that it's important and that
it matters and that you need to not
just sort of move by as a as
a fictional novel
and
and present it doesn't matter. So you know?
A %. I completely agree. And and I
think even before that, before, like, Facebook and
Twitter started to explode, we had blogs, right?
(08:46):
The deep sea news science, Southern fried science,
a lot of other marine focused science and
wildlife focused science was there, but you were,
you were reading it. You didn't necessarily always
see the picture. You didn't see any video
because video sharing wasn't very popular back then.
This was really the first time people got
to see an oil spill in person that
wasn't broadcasted
on a major network channel. And it was
(09:08):
just online and we got to see it
and it was raw. It wasn't like very
well produced. It was raw and it was
just that. And it was phenomenal. People were
just like, Oh my gosh.
And everybody said, this sucks. Like, this is
bad. You know, BP oil has to pay
for this. And they did $4.04 and a
half billion. We can argue the semantics of
whether it was enough or what have you.
(09:28):
And, and to be honest, even to this
day, this was what, twenty ten, twenty eleven,
even to this day, we're still seeing the
effects in the Gulf Of Mexico from that
oil spill.
And I'm not going to go into too
much detail because there was a lot of
detail to go into in terms of the
dispersants and all the chemicals that were put
in the disperses are just to hide the
oil from the surface. So we don't see
it. It's just, it was, it was awful.
(09:48):
Also, we should mention eleven people died in
that oil spill. So that
tragedy among tragedies within, within that. So, but
that's what really, I started to get that
feeling. And I went to Oceans Week in
Washington, DC. At that point, I wasn't working.
I didn't have a job. And I was,
I'm trying to do, I want to do
something. I talked to the people from like
Craig McLean from, Deep Sea News and,
(10:10):
Andrew Thaler from, from Southern Fry Science, they
had blogs. I'm like, Oh, maybe I should
start a blog. Maybe I should do something
about this.
Still hadn't really launched anything yet. And I
went to Oceans Week, Ciao. It's, it's in,
it's basically on parliament,
parliament, I shouldn't say parliament, at the like
the Congress and it's like a government thing
and you go and you, and there's all,
all of these side,
(10:31):
events and stuff. I got to National Geographic
and I got to meet Sylvia Earle. But
before I met Sylvia Earle, I got to
meet, Charlotte Vick and Charlotte has like,
I still credit to this day was a
mentor of mine, still is.
And
you know, she's retired
from
the area because she's done so much work
in this. She's the one who really
(10:52):
inspired me to go and do this type
of work. Cause she's like, this is what's
needed. And I was very passionate about it.
I was young at that time, so I
was very passionate. She's like, yes, I love
what you're doing. You know, you're a science
journalist. This is what we're going to introduce
you to Sylvia. We're going to introduce a
bunch of it. Charlotte was one of the
people who knew everybody and she would introduce
you to everybody. If you needed a contact,
she would give you a contact. Then I
(11:12):
was like, okay, a couple of years later,
I'm like, I'm just going to start, I'm
going to start a podcast. Like, like I
started video and that didn't really work out
very well at the time. It was a
lot of work. And then I'm like, well,
I can do a podcast. And that's kind
of how it worked. Like it just, I
got through Charlotte, through a lot of the
other contacts I got to speak to, and
my own, I got to speak to a
lot of the friends and people that I
(11:34):
met at conferences and got to hear their
stories of me asking questions. And I was
like,
this needs people need to know about this.
Because when I would speak to other people,
when I come home from the conference, I'd
speak to my wife, I'd speak to friends
and family.
I was like, this, this is really cool.
Like, this is really exciting. And people would
agree and like, why don't we hear about
this stuff? Cause it's not the sexy stuff
you want. It's not the shark attack. It's
(11:55):
not an oil spill. It's not a disaster
that people feed and they'll come to their
TV screens or now, you know, your internet
screens, your, your computer screens to click on,
or even your phone to, to tap on
it. This was the stuff that everybody needs
to know to give them hope and to
and to have, like, some ocean optimism
when it comes to to protecting the ocean.
Well, it was partly to protect the ocean.
(12:15):
And that's that was that is have you
always called it that? Is that always It
it started off as Speak Up for Blue
because I was I was the mouthpiece because
of where I was. I was in Ontario.
I couldn't really go out and like, I
didn't have the
ability to, like, go out to a coastline
and do a video right by the ocean,
you know, in a tropical setting where it
(12:36):
would get a lot of views or, go
to Hawaii and go do a dive and
talk to do a voiceover over that. I
would love to do that.
It's really hard to go diving in Ontario
in the winter. It's been done, but it's
really difficult. People could do some polar dips
all the time, but I just can't do
that. Even though I live along the Great
Lakes, it is, you know, it's, it's just
not the same. And so I, I decide,
(12:57):
you know what? I have this power of
the gab. I like to talk. And so
I'm like, let's just go ahead.
And somebody introduced me to podcasting and
I just, as soon as I got interested,
I'm like, I wonder if anybody else is
talking about oceans. And I started to look
at it and not many people were, and
some of the shows that were had been
defunctified for a while. And so I was
(13:18):
just like, okay, I'm, I'm going to start
this. If nobody's talking about it, I'm that
person. It's my entrepreneurial spirit. It's like, if
nobody's doing it, I'm going to start doing
it. And then, and then that's where I
am now. So it started off as Speak
Up for Blue. Then I moved it to
Speak Up for Ocean Blue because the, the,
on iTunes,
when, when iTunes was still around and you
want to look up a podcast,
the search was very literal. It had to
(13:39):
be in the title. So if I wanted
to, I wanted to rank well for Ocean
Blue.
Yeah. Just people didn't know what Speak Up
for Blue meant. So I'm like, oh, speak
up for the Ocean Blue. And then, I
really got into somebody talk to me. It's
like, why don't you just be very literal?
Like, what's your podcast about? Well, it's about
how to protect the ocean. I'm like,
how to protect the ocean. Yes. That's that's
what it was. So it's been like that
for about five or six years now. Okay.
(14:01):
So just, like, sort of to get the
story. So and to connect it to
get getting action to happen from Mhmm. Those
of us who might live in
landlocked areas even if landlocked even if you're
in a Great Lakes with one of the
greatest, you know, bodice water in the Yeah.
Sweetwater Ocean. Yeah. Right?
(14:21):
But
the grittiness, you know, like, the raw and
you use some of that language. Right? The
deep connection
that you made
with what was really happening and that you
shared with what was really happening. You know,
like, bringing the reality of on the ground,
in the water,
on the shore
voice for the ocean and the people who
(14:43):
were suffering and the nature that was suffering
and
giving the feeling in your voice, which has
so much,
you know, energy and and
Yeah. Thanks.
Oh, again, I mean, they with the word
like, so much to it that really carries
the message
to, like, make people feel like they're really
there without having to be there, which you
(15:04):
don't get from the written word the same
way. Right? You have to have a lot
of patience to be able to to bring
that poetry to life. Like, you're bring you're
brought into life in this really, really intimate
way with this beautiful energy. So thank you.
I I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Okay. So this was the beginning of, like,
this this pathway
(15:25):
to changing the world and giving us hope.
Okay.
So what's the lesson?
Well, the lesson here is, like, if you
really wanna do something,
just start it. You know, it was never
perfect, and it's still not perfect.
But I I really embrace it. There is
no perfect. There is no perfect. And I
I'm a, I'm a guy who likes to,
(15:47):
throw,
throw it up against, throw stuff up against
the wall, see what sticks. That's, that's really
what it comes down to. And that's what
I've done. I've, I've kind of fumbled through
things. There've been episodes that I've put up
where I'm like, that's not my best episode,
but I'm going to put it up because
I think the information is, is good. And,
and, and I've done it for, I think
today was my
(16:08):
seventeen
seventeen episode.
Okay. So 1,017 repeat that. Right? Like, because
it's my most I've been trying to I
can't catch up. Like, I've been trying to
to
to, like, just sort of and every episode
has its own magic. And just like I
hear with my 20 episodes, you know, people
say,
you know, that was my favorite even though
(16:29):
I was like, that was my least favorite.
They're like, oh, like, that was my favorite.
So you never know what's gonna happen. You
never know. You never know it. Really connect
with people. So Yep. 1,707
podcast
episodes from the beginning of podcasting
Yeah. From beginning of all this technology.
It's it's just heartwarming to to hear that
(16:50):
there's been this passion
to bring something so important
forward and to talk to 1,700 people plus
people. Right? And by the way, we were
just talking about the fact that we both
interviewed,
Andy DeHart, who's the head of CEO of
Loggerhead
And,
the the the crossover
(17:10):
in any world is amazing. So, like,
listen to an episode and they'll be listen
to a few, and you'll find something that
you did or you knew or whatever. Oh,
yeah.
Yeah. The connections, like I said before, is
it's
the, the space of marine biology and marine
conservation is very, is very small when you
get into it and you, and you start
and, and what's really nice is many of
(17:31):
the people are, are super collaborative, super friendly.
I think that's really what has come down
to these days. It never used to be
that way, but that's changed over the last
twenty years where people are just trying to
support each other. And that's what I've, that's
my message. My message
is to serve not only my audience, but
to serve the community. Like I want to
show your work. I want to talk about
(17:52):
your work because I think it's interesting.
And that's what I want other people to
feel like. Anyway, it was really interesting. One
of the people that I've interviewed, a good
friend of mine, David Shiffman, he's like, Andrew,
I love the way you interview.
You're so passionate.
Part of, like, there's a little bit of
envy that other people get to do this
(18:14):
cool stuff. But
my thing, and I used to be a
little bit like, Oh, I want after an
after an episode, like, I don't know if
you feel this way after you do an
interview, but I get really jacked up. I'm
like, I'm hyped up. I'm like, yeah, this
is so
cool. I'll go and I'll talk to people
about it. My wife's like, okay, okay. Settle
down a little bit. But I get, I
get really hyped up for it because I
get excited that this work is going on
(18:35):
and it used to be, I'm like, I
want to do the same thing. Now it's
like, no, I've just done
a service where I've taken that message and
I've taken whatever that person has learned and
whatever that's the struggles and the success of
that person went through. And I've put it
on the air. I've put it on a
platform that people can access for free. Right.
And that's really what it is. It's, it's,
(18:55):
that's what I love about podcasting. It's not
a radio show where it's nice and polished.
It's not NPR, which they do phenomenal shows,
right? CBC radio does it up here, but
some phenomenal shows, but they put hundreds of
thousands of dollars worth of it. It's crazy.
Yeah. And it's, and they're beautiful episodes. Like
they're really well done. The people who are
doing that are experts and they know what
they're doing in their field. They know how
(19:16):
to tell stories. They know how to do
all that stuff.
But for me, it's like, I just want
to talk about it. And everybody's like, why
don't you niche down to like a specific
ocean issue? I'm like, if I do that,
then I have to, then I can't talk
about the rest and I just can't do
that. And the reason I'm starting this is
to talk about every ocean issue because they're
all impacting each other and it's all cumulative
and we need to do something about it.
(19:38):
And I want to talk about not only
just that, I want to talk about everything.
And that's what I've been able to do.
And that's what I love about like this
being independent. It's just mine. I'm not part
of an organization. This is just me. That
is it's, it's a way for me to
keep doing what I love to do without
getting paid for it. Like I don't, it's
not my full time job. I do this
as an extra. And,
(19:59):
when I, like, I go to work, I
have a job that's like software development
and like, I work for a software development
company and
it's not anything I do here. So I
come home. This is my way to keep
connected as a marine biologist, as a scientist.
Sense of purpose. So you said so many
things that I found really interesting. I'm sure
other people do too. One of them was
(20:19):
that the that the environment changed from people
who
weren't quite into
collegiality
and and working together and being kind or
whatever. Like, that's amazing to me because I
thought our culture was kinda going our society
was kinda going going the other way. Mhmm.
It's still a very weird time,
of iciveness and all that. And you're like,
(20:40):
no. We've actually gotten to a to a
place where we're supportive. And can you talk
a little bit more about, like you know,
because we need that. Right? Like, the only
way
we're gonna get in this forward motion path
to make change happen and not just keep
talking about it Yeah. Is to bring change
the opportunity to change and to just take
the next step
(21:01):
to react you know, to to, to people
so they feel like they can do it.
So what what do you do about on
this? Well, I think I think
things have changed with technology and and the
new generations that are coming into the world
as scientists and as science communicators. Science communication
has become
a huge part of conservation
and every organization
(21:23):
is really focusing in on, on that type
of work.
You're seeing a lot more jobs for science
communicators, you know, science communication management,
head of communications, things like that. And a
lot of scientists are getting into that kind
of stuff. So I think the technology
of
social media has really helped people,
scientists be like, I want to share what
(21:43):
I do because it's cool. And so there'll
be in the lab or there'll be a
student or there'll be a graduate student or
undergraduate student, or they'll just be starting to
work and you get to see people do
really cool stuff and it's fun and it's
really interesting and people still want to learn.
And so I think that has taken down
the silos of the past. And what I
mean by silos is that
you see it in government all the time.
(22:03):
When I worked in government for the federal,
Department of Fisheries and Oceans, you saw it
like people in the same building
didn't know the work that other people were
doing, or even within the same department didn't
know what other
sections were doing because it's such a big
thing and they're not interacting all the time.
It's not necessarily their fault,
but that wasn't really encouraged to cross promote.
There weren't meetings going on. Like, what are
(22:24):
you working on? What are you working on?
What are you working
on? And then even in academia,
it's a competitive process. You're competing for a
lot of the same funding, same with nonprofit
organizations. You're competing for a lot of the
same funding. So you want that funding for
your institution or for your organization.
So you're trying to keep things like you
don't want to tell
(22:44):
project with the organization. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And
so it's it's it's very competitive. And as
the money got smaller, the pot of money
got smaller and the organization started to increase
in number, then it got real it's still,
and it's still not perfect. Like it's still
competitive. And, but there's less, there's not as,
there's more collaboration now than there used to
be from what I, and this is anecdotal,
but this is what I see. And I
(23:06):
guess a lot of the times too, for
what I do is I will see somebody
on social media talking about science and I'm
like, Oh, I want to talk to you.
I want you on my, like, do you
want to be on my podcast and talk
about this? And that's makes it easy. And
it also makes it easy too, to have
somebody on the podcast who's ready to talk
about stuff. You know, scientists, sometimes they're not
always, it takes a little bit of more
coaxing.
I've never had a problem with, with scientists
(23:27):
coming on and doing an interview. They've always
said they've had a great time. In fact,
one guy, Doctor. David Ebert known as the
Lost Shark guy had such a great time
that he, we started a podcast together called
Beyond Jaws, and it's still going on to
this day.
And so it got me at board meetings.
He's coming out to do a shark episode
with me. I know. I told him, I
was like, you gotta, you gotta reach out
to Jessica. Or I think you reached out
to him. He told me, I was like,
(23:47):
yeah, you gotta go on this. This is
a lot of fun.
And he's phenomenal. That interview can probably go
on for two hours because we talked all
the time and we really got along. He's
a good friend of mine now. And, and,
he's got such a great history, but he,
again, he's a guy who loves science. That's
all he, that's all he cares about. You
know, he cares about, I mean, he cares
about other, of course, people and everything, but
like he cares about work. He cares about
(24:09):
finding sharks and that's his passion.
In fact, we have
a series of video series coming out that
I, I just saw a new forte in
my world of editing, like, mini documentaries for
YouTube, and he's gonna put it on his
YouTube channel. That's gonna come out, like, soon.
But it's probably by the time this goes
up, this will bite. Wait. It'll be in
our in our show notes. That would be
fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be awesome.
(24:29):
To me, you're going down this path of,
like, and this energy like, all I see
is I'm looking at your, like, you know,
on Zoom. Like, I'm looking at, like, the
joy, the excitement.
And to me, it's this whole big sense
of purpose. Right? Like, you've given
people a chance to to sit in conversation
with you
without the boundaries of, you know, behave in
(24:50):
a controlled way and just be super passionate
and purposeful Mhmm. And, like, let it all
out. Right? So, like Mhmm. What are you
working on? Why is this important? You know,
share. Who do you need to work with
to make this happen? What's the first step?
What's the next right step that you could
take? So, you know, giving that,
agency, empowerment, whatever, to whoever
(25:12):
is
is hesitant
to take that step or hesitant to share
or hesitant to
get
big versus stay small and protected because they
they fear
their grant money might not get renewed or
whatever it is. Like, we live in sort
of a different place. Right? Like, the more
and I I a lot of grants actually
say who you're working with. Like Yeah. Who
(25:32):
how are you going to expand this and
scale it
and make this not just small? Because my
money needs to go farther than just this
one step.
So, like, all this sense of purpose is
really just bursting forth.
Well and and to be honest, like, you
know, I'd love to be funded. I'd love
to be paid to do this and do
this full time.
But when you have this type of freedom
where you can really you're not bound by
(25:54):
necessarily an organization. You're not bound by,
money that you like, I can only speak
on such and such, because this is what
I'm funded for. You have this ability to
talk about whatever you want. And it's, it's
a little bit exciting because I can do
whatever I want. I can go the pathway
wherever I want and I can explore. Sometimes
I go on a bit of an experiment
and sometimes it's great. And other times, no,
(26:14):
it's not so great. I recently started to
video podcast and put it on YouTube. I
basically just turned the camera on. That was
a bit difficult.
I wasn't, I wasn't used to it. I
used to just come in, I'd read an
article, I'd have a thought, and I'd be
like, okay, I'm gonna just sit down, press
record, and boom. I would just I just
blab as much as I could. You know,
I'd make some notes and stuff to to
make sure that I'm I'm staying on track
(26:34):
and I'm not renting. Dimensions. Right? And, like,
instead of it just being audio,
there's this whole multidimensional.
And I credit social media. You know what
I mean? Like, we can we can judge
and and talk about all the the horrible
additions to our world that social media has
created. Right? But, like, the fact that
people now have access to
(26:56):
short form or long form, but short form
honesty and
grit and
multi
multimedia
facet, you know, like, communication
and spontaneous communication. And and, you know, there's
some real downsides to when we're using alternate
facts, and it gets
confusing. But, like, to be able to you
(27:18):
know, for you to be as a resource
to the rest of us to just get
this stuff out there Yeah. And, like, start
sharing stuff that's important in all different,
channels
Yeah.
Is really,
gonna change. Right? It changes It changes things.
Yeah. It it democratizes
information.
(27:38):
And that can go sway either way. That
can sway to, like, as you mentioned, the
extreme bad, but it can also sway
to the good. And if you're just trying
to
change information or just get information out there.
When I was a kid, there was no
internet.
We didn't have internet in our home. I
don't think I had it until like mid
high school.
And that was, you had to, you went
to the library to get,
(28:00):
to get all your information, National Geographic magazines.
Was it the Encyclopedia Britannica?
You know, then there were, there were, Yeah,
you had everything. But like in my library
in Ontario, like in Toronto, there wasn't a
lot on oceans. There were pictures, like, it
was like these beautiful imagery of, of like
the Jacques Cousteau's taking it, but there wasn't
a lot of information on that I, that
(28:21):
I had access to. And It wasn't as
if I can go online and look at
other libraries and try and find that wasn't
around. You just get to call and you
have to figure out what you could, and,
and even books that were in,
the bookstore
weren't, and you didn't really buy as many
books back then. It was mostly library stuff,
But here I have the ability to talk
to somebody that's in Sri Lanka or to
(28:41):
talk to somebody that's in Puerto Rico or
to talk to somebody that's just like down
I have a neighbor down the street who
listens to my podcast and we discuss it
all the time.
It's amazing how you can get to so
many people.
And it's, that's the information that they needed
at that point in time. Like just, my,
my eight year old self is like screaming
right now at how easy it is to
(29:03):
get access to some of the information. And
as you mentioned, it can be good and
it can be bad, but I know that
the information I'm putting out is the best
that I can put out. You know, I've
had to correct myself a couple of times,
but it's the best that I can put
out.
And But it's, you know, to your point
of why this matters. It's creating a sense
of energy
Yeah. That we're energizing
(29:23):
for
and and Andrew gets tens of thousands of
listens per episode. So, like, you know, there's
people
being energized
to move forward and do something. Yeah. So,
like, you know, these small sound bites
are making a difference.
Yeah. So, you know, the the bottom line
sort of of taking your story
(29:44):
of
get in it. Like, go
into nature.
Go
be, you know,
whatever your purpose is or whatever you have
a feeling that you wanna pursue a connection
with in life, go go there. Like, go
do it. Don't just read about it or
or listen to it, but, like, go and
experience it so that you can be energized
(30:05):
to do something because you can now easily
do something. Yeah. You know? And and it's
not gonna be the thing that changes the
world, but it's gonna be a step.
Yeah. Right? And communication is huge. Like, just
getting the message out there instead of keeping
it small
Yeah. Is what others need. So %. I'm
I'm going with that. Go go with that.
Like, we're Well and I think too is,
(30:26):
like, as a student in science and marine
biology, you start to learn certain things and
some of them are heavy. Like you realize
that the ocean's in trouble and you realize
that there are a lot of cumulative effects.
And at the time we were like, climate
change is going to be, it's going to
be gnarly. It's going to be bad as
you get older and, and you're going to
see it. And it's so it felt twenty
years ago at that point felt so long,
you know, from, for now, but now we're
(30:48):
in it and
we're feeling the effects. There's, there's no doubt
about that. And so all the scientists that
were saying, yeah, we're really going to feel
the next twenty years. They were correct. You
know, as, as we can say it, even
though the deniers were like, no, though, that's,
that's going, you know, we're not going to
have like crazy wildfires and this and that.
Well, unfortunately, we do, but this is the
(31:08):
learning process that I want people to have
is, is the more that we know as
scientists and marine biologists, you start to
become more aware of the decisions that you
make, you know, at home, wherever you are,
inland, on the coast, offshore, it doesn't matter.
You're affecting the oceans. It's all connected. It's
all connected into one. And it's our biggest
resource that that's, that's, that makes our planet
(31:30):
sustainable to live.
And if we screw that up, we are
in trouble, Right. And we're in the midst
of screwing it up. And so we need
to learn. And that's why I keep it
open and I keep it honest and I
keep it transparent. And we also need to
do, and
the goal of the podcast is to inspire
(31:50):
people, the people in the audience. And I
used to just say one person
to change their life
in different ways. So it doesn't have to
be, you have to start, you have to
go back to school and do marine biology
and become marine biologist. We have a lot
of scientists.
We have tons of scientists.
What we need people to do is just
be like, okay, let's just look. What are
the major problems? Okay. Plastic pollution.
(32:10):
What can I cut down on? Or what,
you know, what can I do to help?
Even though it may not feel as significant,
the fact that you're thinking about the ocean
and everything you do when you go to
the convenience store and you're really thirsty and
that Gatorade bottle looks really good, or that
vitamin water looks really good. And you're like,
Oh, that looks really good. But it's in
a plastic bottle. You're like, No, maybe I'll
go buy the powdered version and then I'll
(32:31):
go have it at home. Like, it is
not a huge change and it's not going
to change the world tomorrow.
But what happens is the more we change
these different types of habits,
the better we get
at being a leader for the ocean
and protecting it. And then because then it
grows. And and ripple that message. Yeah. I
went to the store, and I didn't buy
(32:52):
the bottle.
Yeah. I refilled my cup, and I was
just as happy or even happier because I
didn't put chemicals in me or whatever it
happens. Right? Yeah. You have to be talking
about it, which is what you're doing. Like,
the more we talk about it, the
more energy there is around every step every
one of us takes. Yep.
And as a kid, going down and doing
that work, you know, being on the ground
(33:14):
and being exposed to something that at the
time you had no idea what was
was who would imagine Yeah. Impacted this time
you spent in Louisiana
just pursuing
a passion
Yeah. And then it changing your life and
and you're being able to explode this whole
important voice
Yeah. In every aspect of it. Right? And,
(33:34):
like, in terms of the oceans, the 1,707
episodes talk to 1,707
different issues around the ocean, which are all
all matter
And that's it. And, and, and to be
honest, like I've, I've had the, the opportunity
to hear back from, from a lot of
the, from some of the audience members and
(33:55):
some people have changed their lives. I had
a guy who was like a plumber in
Australia who like quit his job once he
found out about the plastic pollution and started
an organization where he went to clean up
beaches.
That doesn't happen every day. Like, I don't
expect that to happen every day, but that
was really cool to say, Oh, okay. The,
the information that you learned from the podcast
led you down that path. Another, another woman
(34:16):
that I Follow their purpose. I mean, I
would go,
right? Like, yeah, they obviously weren't happy doing
exactly what they were doing and decided like,
this is really, I'm really passionate about this.
And this is what I want to do.
Same thing with another woman who was, she
was a marine biologist and she had done
her,
undergrad. I think she may have done her
master's. And she went back to do a
PhD while listening to the podcast while she
(34:36):
was like on an oyster farm and she
didn't like it. And when it rained, she
put her earbuds in and she would listen
to it. And she's like, I'm miserable doing
this, but Hey, you know what? I can
go do this and I can go back
and do a PhD
and did a PhD at Duke University. And
I got to meet her in person and
she she's like, Oh, I recognize your voice.
And I'm like, Yeah, well,
the host. And she's like, Yeah, you're the
one who made me who, the reason why
(34:57):
I'm here. I'm like, What? That's ridiculous. I'm
like, tell me that story. And it makes
me feel good, like to, to know that
people are doing, are making these changes. Like,
I don't expect everybody to make these types
of changes, but these are, these are very
drastic changes, but
it's, it's nice to know that the words
are getting to people. Right. And now with
YouTube, hopefully the visuals are helping to get
to people.
(35:17):
And it's just the way you just got
to adapt to the way
people listen and or watch
your, your information and, and to be on
as many platforms as possible.
I like podcasting because it's, it's easier to
do.
YouTube is a little bit more
intense because there's, there's a lot of, there's
a lot of video editing to keep watchers
watching, but it's fun. It's it's I truly,
(35:40):
truly enjoy it, you know? And,
you know, I think that the dream for
me is if I can,
hook up with a, an organization to be
their social media manager, then that's,
that's what I would do, you know, and
and it's and because I've had all this
experience and and that's where that's where I'd
love to to head at some point, you
know, down the future. It can really help
(36:01):
change it. Whoever's listening, right, like, this is
your prize
for listening. Right? Like, getting connection
with with Angela and Ferb Exactly. Exactly. World.
So we have our opportunity there. Okay. Wrapping
it up, what's what's the message you wanna
leave us with that,
we'll we'll do more of that next step
(36:22):
of change for for anyone who's who's lucky
enough to be listening to this? Well, first
of all, thank you for having me on
the show. I would say the biggest thing
is when you start learning about some of
the issues that are that are hitting the
ocean hard, take a deep
breath. You know, we're not going to change
and we can't change it the next day.
It is a step process
(36:43):
and we are headed on the right steps
in some and others. We're headed backwards in
some areas.
But what the biggest thing is, is
the power of community. The power of the
numbers
will get you there, especially in democratic societies.
And the more, you know,
the better and more effective you can be
within that community
(37:04):
And just stay positive,
keep with the optimism,
and we will change it for the better.
And we'll get back to our place. The
other thing
I would say is,
the benefit of being truly sustainable and making
changes is usually benefit to your wallet and
your health.
In all, like, I haven't met one thing.
(37:26):
I haven't come across one thing that you
can go, like, if you want, you know,
to help your wallet and help climate change,
we'll move to a heat exchanger instead of
gas furnace.
You know, if you want to help climate
change as well, and if you can afford
it, get an EV. They're starting to come
down in price and they're starting to be
more and more available and there's more charging
stations available. And there's there, it's really handy.
(37:47):
And,
you know, in Canada, anyway, most of our
electric power comes from clean power. And so
it's getting, it's getting cleaner.
Those things help you in your wallet. If
you want to stay healthy, stay away from
single use plastics, especially water bottles. That stuff
gets into your body. And we're just, every
time you buy, you're basically telling the company
that it's making those
(38:08):
it's,
Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm agreeing that you
should do this because like, I'm supporting you
in doing this. By not buying it, then
they're eventually going to get the idea. And
the more people that don't buy it, the
better. Right? That's when they're really going to
change their thing. Cause they went from glass
to plastics because it was cheaper for them
and they make more money off of it.
That's the only reason.
Yeah.
(38:29):
Yeah. People
say that, oh, people like them more pick
up a glass Coke bottle and a plastic
Coke bottle and tell me which one you
like the most, because I'll be very surprised
if it's a plastic one. But that's the
thing is it's really take a deep breath,
you know, take one step at a time.
You're not gonna change the world tomorrow, but
together we can change the world one day.
And and and that's really what it comes
down to. Beautiful. What a beautiful way to
(38:52):
wrap it all up. Thank you so much,
Andrew. No problem. Thank you. One of my
mentors and heroes now.
Well, I appreciate it. I love
what
you're doing here. This is amazing. So, I'm
glad everybody's listening. Awesome. Yay. Thank you. Thank
you so much.
You bet.
(39:22):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(39:42):
Anything else to add, Miles?
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