In this fascinating episode of Resilience Gone Wild, host Jessica Morgenthal speaks with Elena Kazamia, a scientist, writer, and passionate advocate for blending science and storytelling. Elena shares her unique journey from studying algae to exploring the impact of insect migration, particularly focusing on the marmalade hoverfly, a tiny but powerful pollinator. She highlights the importance of insects in maintaining healthy ecosystems, the role of citizen science in conservation, and how engaging with nature can inspire both action and creativity.
Throughout the conversation, Elena delves into the resilience of nature, the interconnectedness of species, and the significance of art in making science more accessible. She also shares her aspirations to write a book about the hidden world of algae and the essential role these organisms play in our planet’s health.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Yay. I was talking. Happy. Okay. Welcome, Elena
Casamiyah.
And I am so excited to
bring Elena to
to this this forum
because,
she's just the most joyful person. And and,
if you go onto YouTube and you watch
this video instead, we'll we're creating some short
videos. Elena has created, like, this background of
(00:27):
this beautiful,
like, grass,
and she's, like, kind of in it as,
like, a bit of tiny nature. So we'll
get to that conversation,
along the way.
But I discovered, Elena,
because,
I read this. And if you read my
newsletter, you'll see I read this really interesting
article about
this man in Mexico who
(00:49):
figured out how to,
create
the blue dye
that was in a yarn or
Mayan blue.
And it just took me down this path.
And I'm a scientist from past life and
connection between science and art and culture is
my thing. So as well as,
this beautiful person that I'm that I'm interacting
(01:11):
with now. So, Elena, please introduce yourself. Tell
us a little bit about who you are,
and give us a little bit about the
breadth. Like, I'm blown away by
just the the breadth of the work that
you do and and what you bring to
us. So, yeah. Yes. Well, thank you for
such a lovely introduction, Jessica. It's really nice
to be on the podcast.
(01:32):
Yeah. So I am a
scientist and writer.
In a in a previous life, I was
just doing a lot of science and my
specialty is algae.
And
I often used to get the question, you
know, like, why do you study algae?
It's just such a not a I mean,
actually, now people are more familiar with,
what they can do and where they are,
(01:53):
but it used to be sort of very
niche. And
the honest answer was that I actually found,
thinking about algae something to be quite romantic.
You know, this idea of single living cells
out in the ocean producing
oxygen for us to breathe, and, obviously, they're
not thinking about us at all.
They're not thinking at all in the same
(02:15):
way that we think.
But, anyway, it was something I found,
my own research to be very inspiring, but
also,
the work of other scientists to be very
inspiring. And
I love to tell stories. I love to
tell stories from my own research, but also
those of others. So right now,
I work as a writer, for mainly for
(02:36):
Nautilus Magazine, which is a science and culture
magazine.
And
the one of the nicest things about it
is that I don't really have a very
specific beat, so I don't
I cover a variety of topics whatever interests
me and the editors and that's often at
the intersection of science and art like you
mentioned Jessica the Mayan blue story was a
(02:57):
great example
of I think, he's a teacher and a
potter,
in Yucatan and Mexico. And he
rediscovered
the
blue pigment that the Mayans, his ancestors,
he is also Maya. He considers himself Maya.
That his ancestors were also using in their
(03:19):
pottery and sculptures. And so that was really
great,
to sort of, talk a little bit about
both the chemistry behind the process, but also
just about,
the art,
that he was he was doing.
But there's been so many so many stories,
you know, that,
come across I come across now in my
reporting.
(03:40):
And I think the one that we might
talk about today a little bit more is
the insect story
that I wrote last week. To interrupt you
for a sec because first of all, there's
so much humility going on here. Okay. So
first of all,
we've got a PhD
from Cambridge,
and and, like, this breadth of work that
and and just as a total aside, that
(04:01):
you studied, which I didn't really put the
two of them together, algae,
and which you pronounce algae in. I'm first
pronouncing it correctly. Yeah. And I was just
telling Elena about
the parrot fish eating
that thing, their source of and and she,
like, wrote it down. And, like, we have
to have this conversation about parrot fish at
some point along the way and, like, their
(04:22):
contribution to,
to the world by their eating algae and
then,
creating the sand of our most of our
white sand I know. That blew my mind.
I I really honestly didn't know anything about
it, and it's you know, you could you
really can spend
forever in a field and still not know,
like, most of the things
(04:42):
about what other people know in your field.
Science is a big like everybody else's work
too. You know? And yeah.
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because, I mean, I'm
looking at sort of just the breadth of
your work and reading, like, many, many titles
of articles
and of research, you know, they span between,
following really interesting humans
(05:03):
who've done really interesting work in science and
nature and that kind of stuff to
outer space to micro micro
to one celled organisms to,
art and culture. Like, it's, like, it's,
just so beautiful
to imagine your brain, you know, like the
swimming in so much joyful
(05:25):
curiosity
and that's going in so many different directions,
but that you narrow it down and you,
like, are able to focus on something and
really bring the story to life.
There aren't that many good science writers.
And I have to just offer it to
listeners, like, go to Nautilus Magazine,
go to, you know, we'll put the show
in the show notes how to reach, you
(05:46):
know, connect with a lot of these articles.
But they're so readable. They're so you just
feel like you're in the story.
And including, like, in the Pyrenees,
counting
bugs and birds and all that stuff. So
we'll talk about that. So
Thank you so much. That's such a great
compliment. And, that's really what drives me. You
know, it's a passion
(06:07):
to sort of connect exactly to that, to,
like, you know, the human spirit and how
we try to understand the world around us,
but also the introspection that that brings,
in terms of sort of the
the people who are involved and what that
means about our nature, our human nature.
Yeah. And just sort of to get to
the sort of, like, a sort of gritty
(06:27):
level of that,
the story that that we both know we
wanna share is,
just one of the many articles that was
about,
a scientist, a man, one of quite a
rare bunch,
who does something that seems like there should
be more people doing it,
who
found himself in the in
the mountains
(06:47):
in Europe, in the Pyrenees, right,
counting bugs because we need to
know date. We need data.
And it's gotta be done. Like, AI will
get there somehow, but AI, you know, has
to be trained by humans. And
so,
tell us the beginning of this or tell
us the story that you wrote about, and
then we can see where that goes. Yeah.
(07:09):
It it's an incredible story. I think so.
I have the main protagonist that is I
guess is a scientist called William Hawkes.
He's based at the University of Exeter in
The UK.
And he,
is one of apparently according to him about
50 to 100 scientists most,
who study insect migrations. So I didn't when
(07:31):
I came to the story I had found
it, I think, just looking,
on Eureka Alerts, which is a website where
new discoveries are sort of announced by various
universities.
And so I saw this and I thought,
insects migrate? You know, like, how have I
I mean, I maybe had heard of the
monarch butterfly. You know, I'm based in Southern
California.
(07:51):
We
have, monarch butterflies that come here in the
winter from Canada. Wow. I knew that the
monarch butterfly does this, but
I really
didn't know that a lot of insects do
this. And I certainly didn't know that it
is the biggest animal migration on Earth. I
mean, how mind blowing is it that most
(08:11):
people really, like, almost nobody, probably. Like, if
you count fractionally how much how many people
in the world know
about insect migrations. Like, we think we know,
you know, birds fly south for the winter,
but, like and we kind of have heard
about monarch butterflies if they're in our world
in The US.
But,
this is so important.
(08:31):
And,
you brought it to life. So keep going.
Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So
so, of course, I I I really wanted
to reach out to him, and we I
usually have, you know, quite short, short ish
conversations. But with this guy, we ended up
talking for an hour and a half.
I just couldn't let him go because Yeah.
There was just more and more that I
(08:52):
learned about insects and his favorite insect, the
one that the research,
is mostly based is, on the marmalade hoverfly,
which is which lives in exactly. What a
great name. Right? Of the marmalade hoverfly.
We don't have that here in in North
America, but we do have hoverflies.
The marmalade hoverfly is sort of like it
(09:14):
camouflages to look a bit like a bee
or a wasp, but it is a fly.
And so it undertakes this migration,
that,
William was studying.
It's so appropriate for him to be British
and it's to be You know? Right? Like,
there can't be a coincidence.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And so they had, set up basically,
(09:36):
there's a pass. So the insects migrate,
they undertake
these
I mean, the the the numbers are extraordinary.
You know, there's
tons and tons of biomass. You know, you
could think of it as just weight of
of of, of animal in the air. And
if you think about it that way, it
is the biggest migration on Earth. So, like,
(09:57):
it's the biggest movement of of animals across
the planet.
It is visible by radar. So we have
have, apparently, we've known about this since we've
had radars. You know, they can detect them.
But what we don't know is
what species are involved because that's not something
that our radar can detect. So
(10:18):
people
like, doctor Hawkes, you know, they go out
to these places to record the migrations. But
they're very difficult to record because insects are
very small. They can fly in a really
diffuse way. So, like, as just a tiny
human on the ground. Like, how do you
study that? Like, that's like a a very
specific challenge. And
(10:38):
he was telling me about some work that
he had come across and it wasn't even
real work. I mean, it was work, but
it wasn't in a very academic setting. But
this couple had been hiking through the Pyrenees,
and they walked through this narrow pass, and
they said that they witnessed this huge insect
migration. They recorded it, and it was in
the fifties.
(10:59):
And he was I have a little quote,
written. Like, he actually read it out to
me during our interview. He said, it is
rare in this time, this is in the
fifties,
to be permitted to taste the zest of
discovery,
which is usually permitted only to the ancients.
So this is how the people felt as
they were walking through the Pyrenees and they
(11:20):
saw a huge insect migration. The privilege just
the privilege of connecting so deeply with nature
to see it as
part of their world and that privilege of
being in it.
Yeah. And so and
he said that,
they weren't sure because this is,
in 2018 when he they decided to go
(11:42):
back to this place, basically, the Pyrenees where
this couple had recorded something
and to see if they could still
find insects migrating, and they did. And so,
the reason the past is important is because
the insects are sort of funneled into it
Mhmm. As they're trying to cross the mountains.
And so,
that's a if you're a, you know, tiny
(12:03):
human that we are, you can just sit
in one place and you can just record,
the numbers. And it because it's sort of
like a
concentrated funneling spot for them, you can actually,
on the ground,
take measurements, catch the insects so that you
can identify them. So that was, like, the
big discovery was we knew that because of
radar imaging that insects were migrating.
(12:25):
But this was a really great spot to
actually take some on the ground,
measurements of what the insects were.
And so yeah. And so he spent
four summers doing this.
Give us a sense. How how big is
a marmalade hoverfly? Is it? Well, I think
tiny, like,
20,
The size of a bee or the size
(12:46):
of a okay. So it's like so just
imagine
being in this space where they're all,
you know, consolidated
into this narrow chute
and being in there and
and, like, you know, I'm picturing the birds,
you know, Alfred Hitchcock and the birds. Like,
it's gotta be
a pretty freakish commitment, right, to, like,
be in that space and
(13:08):
to not to not then to come back.
Right?
Exactly. And to come back day after day
after day no matter what the weather. Right?
Because they,
you are
in it's a pretty,
you're pretty high up in terms of altitude.
So even in the summer and they were
recording
at the end of summer and in the
start of fall. So it could be pretty
(13:28):
cold. You know, he sent me some images.
There was, like, frost on the ground. So
they're hiking up to the spot, you know,
from the local village
at dawn because they want to be able
to be there
right at dawn because that's when some of
the insects start flying.
They want to see if the weather conditions
make a difference. So they're doing it all
kinds of days, rainy days, windy days, sunny
(13:51):
days,
and they're trapping Capturing as many metrics as
they can
so that there can be some
analysis. Because you you can't just, like, if
you only just count, you've lost so much
opportunity, right, to, like,
figure out. Exactly.
Exactly. And so and I think his job
in particular was to set up these traps
(14:11):
so that they can sample a proportion of
the migration that is then representative of the
whole migration
and identify who's there.
And most of the species are actually flies,
which I think was a surprise. You know?
There's obviously dragonflies
and other insects,
moths and butterflies that also migrate, but the
(14:32):
majority are flies. So I think that was
new.
And then
most of them are also pollinators. So that
was
already, like, a really huge thing that suddenly
and this is where where my you know,
it's not just his journey and, like, this
human spirit of, like, hiking up the mountain
to take these these measurements that most people
would probably just find obscure.
(14:53):
It's that it matters, and it matters because
it connects. Like, the scale
suddenly begins to add up, and these things
matter to us to you know, in a
way that we probably hadn't considered before. So
because these insects are pollinators,
they're cross pollinating,
and they're bringing pollen from one location some
(15:13):
to somewhere very far away.
And so they're bringing that genetic diversity,
and they're helping,
things grow
in very far away locations, you know, from
where, the pollen would have originally
started. So one example he gave me was
that,
you know, as the climate is shifting and,
you know, we have places that are becoming,
(15:34):
you know, that are experiencing drought, one of
the things that the insects are helping do
is they're helping bring pollen from drought resistant
locations to the places so that suddenly you're
bringing in that diversity that could help the
whole ecosystem recover.
So, I mean, and they need to do
more work to sort of quantify that and
understand that a bit better. But now that
(15:54):
they know which species are involved, they can
begin to do this. And
I mean,
how absolutely
mind blowing. And then the other one that
just I couldn't
blew my mind as well. I mean, I
I kept like I said, I just couldn't
get enough of the story.
Is that when the insects die, they fertilize
the land. So in a way you have,
(16:15):
you know, things that were born in The
UK and in Wales and someone like these
flies that hatch there.
They die in Spain
And with their bodies, they bring nutrients to
Spain that then allow
things in Spain to grow. And that's important
for, again, for the ecosystems
in Spain. So everything's interconnected.
(16:35):
And sometimes it's on the wing of an
insect, you know, and it's sort of just,
wonderful how the small, the large and the
and the Us kind of as,
observers and and participants
kind of all comes together in in this
story.
It's so, so important. Such a beautiful
(16:55):
image such beautiful imagery,
to just imagine, like, you know, again, this
sort of chute
that narrows through these magnificent mountains and
and the just the endless cycles of nature,
the seasons of nature
of moving through, and that it's all a
system. You know, we think we talk about
biodiversity, and
(17:17):
nothing lives in a vacuum. I mean, that
seems like a vacuum, like shooting through, right?
But when you actually look at what's in
the traps alone,
you know, you've got this diverse set of
flies of all types of animals, and you've
got
the ones that are getting through and the
ones that are dying and creating or fertilizing
and the ones that are repollinating in another
place. Like, it is one big system, and
(17:40):
we need to recognize
and be much more conscious of systems of
nature
so that we
don't think we can just put I mean,
this whole, like, monofarming
and monospecies,
like, it's it doesn't nature doesn't work that
way. Right? Like, they it all interacts between
flora, fauna, fungi, phenomena. Like, it's my four
(18:00):
you know, my four
f sounding word.
And, like, this imagery just brings that to
life.
Yeah. Absolutely.
And, you know, the their podcast is a
lot of it is about resilience. And one
of the
things that I,
you know, I I asked him about is,
you know, is this are these insects threatened?
(18:20):
You know, like, in this year Of course.
Yeah. About, you know, there's a lot of
doom and gloom stories. And, actually, he was
very positive. You know, he said, no. You
know, these are very hardy species. They have
learned to do these migrations over
five generations for the hoverfly. You know? It
comes down
across the Pyrenees into Spain, and then it
takes another
(18:42):
three or four generations for them to return
back to The UK.
And they, you know,
they are very adaptable. And so he was
saying that they navigate
by
a compass, like a sun compass that they
have on their heads. I mean, like, wow.
So they know where they are and they
can,
(19:03):
they have, you know,
they can eat a variety of foods. So
they're
he does he didn't personally feel that they're
necessarily threatened by by ongoing climate change. And
in fact, they could be a solution to
some of the ongoing
problems because they're so resilient.
We have to learn from them. Like, we
have to figure out what it is that
(19:23):
makes them
fight
the the pollution and the,
the human the development and all the things
that
would prevent them thriving
and that they just keep so, like, that's
yeah. That thank you for bringing it up.
That is what lights me up. Like, how
does this happen that they're not
suffering
and threatened, that they're keeping cycle going and
(19:45):
they're keeping
the movement of of large swaths of
of land
all connected? Exactly. I mean, there's just a
fly. You know, a fly
hatching somewhere in The UK is going to
end up giving
birth to its, you know, eggs that will
hatch into maggots. Amazing.
Right? It's amazing.
(20:06):
Yeah. I'm I mean, we're very familiar with
the monarch again, some of us are in
states more than others, are familiar with the
monarch butterflies
migration. And if anybody's been following it, they
are super threatened. Like, the numbers are drastically
down. They're not getting I actually don't know
don't remember what it's you know, whether they're
not getting the food they want or they're
(20:26):
not getting the space they want or they're
not getting,
something else that they want.
You might know the answer to that, but,
like, just to put it in perspective that
that this is happening and we don't even
know it, but it's
it's thriving.
Yeah. But, yeah, no, you're absolutely right, Jessica,
is that I mean,
I'm sure that for every positive story, there's
(20:48):
probably some examples of
extinctions and local threats.
And it's true that especially with insects, there's
so many, there's more species
out there that we know about than there
are ones that we do know about. And
so,
you know, maybe it's not necessarily the time
to be overly optimistic. You know, we are
(21:09):
losing We need some hope, and this is
a sign of hope. Right? Yeah.
Yeah.
The other one that he mentioned,
I didn't know I didn't know the species,
but it's, like, it's called the painted lady
butterfly.
I have to call it, but it's a
it looks a little bit like a monarch
to me. It's very pretty. But he was
saying they have some evidence that it's able
(21:29):
to fly across the Sahara
during its migrations
because it travels,
to Sub Saharan Africa in the Sahel region.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, so they think that's true.
They haven't documented it again, like, in the
super rigorous, empirical, scientific way. And they really
want to do that, so they're hoping to
raise some funding to get that work done.
(21:52):
But how amazing would that be, you know,
to learn about a butterfly that can fly
over the biggest desert on Earth? You know?
Whatever. You know? If it can do that,
imagine what we can do.
Exactly. Right? If we could learn how and
we keep doing that. Like, we we find
this this like, I wrote an article recently
in, my newsletter just even about
(22:14):
the,
Gila monster
and how we got all these weight loss,
the the semiglutides,
like, all of the it's biomimicry. Like, we're,
like, all over it. Right? Like, for everything
we do,
if you can trace so much of it
back to scientists who are paying attention to
nature and learning from nature because nature's got
(22:34):
it so figured out. It's been, you know,
millions and millions and millions of years. A
lot of these species have survived, and and
their resilience is what we can learn from
from and we can thrive from.
Just such an important message. Right?
Yeah. I agree. To that to that end,
we were talking we started to chat before
we started recording about citizen science.
So you've got this guy who's one of,
(22:56):
like, 50 to 100 in the whole world
counting insects,
which is so important, right, to, like, know
who's who's what's surviving, what's not surviving, what
can we learn from them,
what value they serve in a system. So
we we went to citizen science. Like, you
know, there's apps like SEEK and,
(23:17):
Merlin Bird app. And, like, there's a lot
of citizen science that just the ones even
I'm aware of.
I'm guessing that you've got some further knowledge
about this in in your exploration. Yeah.
I'm trying to think I'm trying to remember.
There's definitely in the in The US, there's
initiatives where uncertain I think, isn't it oh,
(23:37):
wait. There's a Christmas day bird count. Is
that right? Or is that I don't that's
neat. Yeah. That might be either in The
UK or, The US. I'm not so sure.
But on that day, you're sort of meant
to go outside,
take a nature walk, and then record the
species that you see.
And that's a big citizen science project.
Yeah. I wish I I could remember now,
(23:58):
where exactly that's based.
We'll put it in the show notes. Don't
worry. We'll find it. Sure. Great. Thanks.
There are butterfly walks that that people do.
You know? And, again, that's,
through an app, and you sort of record
the statistics of, like,
where you see them on your nature walk.
And,
I haven't heard about other insect tracking apps
(24:21):
like that. Like, those are the two examples
that immediately come to mind.
But I think it's a it's a really
huge opportunity. Like, if it isn't out there,
and I might be wrong, it might already
be out there. But if it isn't out
there, like,
insects are,
species that, you know, we share our world
with, you know, wherever we are.
(24:42):
And so if we can,
engage more people to just record them,
as they go about their daily lives, like
we can certainly,
learn a lot more.
And,
yeah, so for for scientists like like,
William Hawkes, you know, having that support network
would be really important.
(25:03):
Because, you know, in you know, we tend
to ignore insects, but if we just take
a take a closer look, like, it's very
easy to contribute because there's so many of
us, so many eyes on the on the
ground.
Take a look. Well, I mean, it's not
just that we ignore them. We actually look
you know, we don't know. Right? And and
the ignorance leads to
finding ways to get rid of insects. You
(25:24):
know, there's
a common story
that thirty or forty years ago, you would
take a drive in The United States. It's
probably the same thing in Europe,
and your windshield would be just covered in
bugs. Right? Like, it was like a big
pain in the neck. And
now
you don't.
And it's like, paying attention to that, it
(25:45):
it isn't a good thing.
But if we don't know, it's not a
good thing for
for reasons that, you know, insects are part
of the systems that we need,
then
we we're not paying attention to things that
are important.
So, yeah.
Yeah. And I mean, there are some you
(26:06):
know, AI is such a complicated question.
I know that's outside of the scope of
what we wanna talk about. No. No. No.
I I'm happy to talk about AI. Go
for it. Certainly. I I was just thinking
that, you know, there's lots of image recognition
apps now available that help identify
species too. And,
that could be a really, interesting use of
(26:26):
of AI. You know, like, everybody nowadays
carries a smartphone on them. Often, we don't
know what the insects we're looking at are.
You know, apps can help with that, and
then that can, you know, I can see
how that could be used to inform, like,
data gathering by, like, the science programs and
Actually, for I I mean, for for in
case there's there's people don't actually even know
(26:48):
what citizen science is because it's really quite
a new concept.
Can you just explain
in your beautiful poetic version of
Yeah. I think citizen
science
is sort of a movement to engage
people who are interested and inspired by science,
(27:08):
but are not necessarily
trained, you know, they're not academic scientists themselves,
and they participate
in research projects
by helping collect some of the,
necessary,
or data that can inform analysis and studies
and so on.
So surveys is a really straightforward
example of that. So obviously scientists can't be
(27:31):
everywhere at the same time,
you know, collecting
information about
characteristics or ecosystems even.
So the one prog program that
is close to my own research on on
algae is there are now citizen scientists who,
as part of their tourism to Antarctica, for
(27:51):
example, will collect will help collect samples. Oh,
wow.
Yeah. Of Clankton because, you know, so few
so few people gets to go to Antarctica,
but because that business is growing, like, the
tourism industry is growing,
they can
help,
they can help collect some of that information,
send samples. They they help collect and send
(28:11):
samples back to, labs and analyze that data.
Mhmm. In How great is it to be
part of that? Right? And you don't have
to I've just put it out. You don't
have to actually go to that's really cool
if you do. Make sure you bring some
specimen bottles.
But if you you don't have to go
there to be part of the future of
protect of of
(28:32):
living in a world that is healthier and,
and and
back to where, you know, much of it
was before we started
destroying it,
that, you know, just go for a hike.
You can
use SEEK or any or Merlin or whatever
and, like, just record. You know, it's so
easy. Just go out, look out your window,
(28:53):
and there's probably a bug or a piece
of a plant or an animal or an
insect or or a bird or there's something.
And every one of those
pieces of data matters,
and gets Absolutely. Absolutely. And,
the nice thing is that with these initiatives,
like, there's they're already,
usually,
(29:13):
formatted in a certain way that is
kind of allows, like, the recordings to be
in a format that then scientists can directly
analyze. So, like, that's that's great because sporadic
observations are cool, but if you could have,
like, a system in place that's a bit
more rigorous, that helps, you know, downstream for
when,
the statistics and the models come into come
(29:35):
into play. So
but also it can be just other types
of engagement. You know, one of the
other stories that I've covered is the use
of citizen
scientists, in helping,
combat
plastic pollution also,
in polar regions. So that was a story
about, Arctic
(29:55):
plastic. And
and again, it like the thing that I
love about this is often that happens very
organically. Like, people care. You know? It's not
just scientists who get to do this work,
but people as soon as we see plastic
pollution, you know, on the beach, most of
us want to just reach down and do
something about this. And so the citizen science
programs, what they do is not only they
(30:16):
kind of combine
trash collection and, like,
beach cleanups
with them trying to identify, like, the sources
of the plastic, what we're looking at, where
did it come from. Because often,
they shouldn't be there. Right? Like, they shouldn't
be there. This is somebody's responsible, so somebody
can be held accountable.
And it just helps inform, like, helps provide
(30:38):
a little bit of, like, the the data
and the the argument behind,
you know, things that scientists are trying to
do. And citizen scientists are really, really,
helpful for that.
Yeah. And to to add to that, like,
you know, if you experience
if you're paying attention and you're experiencing
this
interaction with nature and you're, for example,
(31:00):
you know, noticing garbage on the beach or
in the ocean or wherever you or in
the in the river or wherever you are,
and then
you are part of the solution, and then
you talk about it. Right? Like, you tell
your friends. You tell you talk about it
with the people that you're with. Like, the
the story spreads, and then
everyone start you know, more people start being
(31:20):
part of the story and part of the
solution.
I interviewed
Val Tovar, who's who was a director of
conservation ocean conservation
at Loggerhead, the marine life center near me.
And she was telling us, you know, the
process of realizing that there were
a staggering number of cigarette
butts on the beach.
And, you know, they that and from what
(31:43):
I understand, that's a problem everywhere. Right? Like,
people think it'll just it'll just disintegrate. It's
not it's not littering. You know what I
mean? And it turns out that there's a
zillion literally, a zillion microplastic
beads inside a cigarette
filter. And,
by putting you know, it can lead to
solutions. So the result
of them learning
(32:03):
by ex by examining what was in the
garbage that they were collecting off the beach,
they put,
ashtrays, you know, garbage garbage
receptacles for cigarette butts.
And the number of cigarette butts went staggeringly
down. Like, it's all part of the solution,
you know, to get the data,
to recognize that it's not as simple as
(32:25):
you think it is, and that
that nature isn't just gonna
take care of it all, like, whatever we
do to it. So
And so many people care. You know? I
think that's the other
misconception. We often feel like, oh, well,
the majority are just out there and they
don't,
you know, they're just part of the problem.
But, actually,
you know, if you give people a a
(32:47):
solution or you you help them
make, you know, become a part of the
solution, they're very,
they do care. You know, they want Especially
kids. Like, do this with your family. Like,
kids will inspire you and then make you
like, what do you mean you're not picking
that up? What do you mean? So, and
their pickup technology so much faster than
(33:08):
adults anyway. So a fantastic on the ground.
Right?
So tell us where you're going like, what
some of the fun things are that you're
working on now and where you're going and
how we can find you. And and then
I'm gonna keep in touch because I just
adore chatting with you. Thank you. Thanks, Jessica.
Yeah. You know, one of the things that
I've this has been a big leap for
(33:28):
me, actually. You know,
doing focusing more on the writing professionally.
So I'm really excited about,
where it's taking me.
You know, the stories are becoming,
stories that I I personally care more and
more about. I mean, it's not that I
didn't care about any of my previous reporting.
I do.
But,
(33:49):
I'm focusing now on sort of longer, deeper
dives into certain issues.
And I'm hoping to write a book next.
You know? I gather you've started. It's about
Yeah. Getting this wrong. It's not protozoa. It's
much something a little a lot more complicated
than that. Bioluminescent
something. I don't know. Go for it. Tell
me. Tell us what it is.
(34:09):
Well, you know,
I actually already wrote one book.
I've written
half of another, and I'm trying to start
a third. So so there's a lot of
well, I'm like, yeah. That's great. Yeah. The
first one I wrote,
it's not published yet, and I'm going to
save it for a little bit later, but
it's
a part biography.
(34:31):
And it's about sort of some time I
I spent in the ocean doing,
doing science and
sort of it's an expedition
memoir and sort of gives a lot of
background for the algal science, but,
it's on the back burner.
I just I wrote it during the pandemic.
That was really great.
(34:51):
And now I'm planning to write a book
much more,
less biographical, but much more about just the
algal world and all the various things that
we can learn from algae. But hopefully do
it, you know, with the with the skills
that I've
learned by writing for Nautilus or connecting it
to, like, culture and art and bigger ideas.
(35:13):
Beautiful.
Yeah. It's so cool to see some of
the photography
the microphotography.
Oh, that's nice. Like, because
algae is not a simple
single cell. Like like, there's nothing simplistic or
boring
when you get down to that level.
Like, at all. So Oh, I couldn't agree
more. I mean, they're they're jewels. You know?
(35:34):
Like, they're so beautiful, and some of them,
have membranes that are made of silica that
is kinda like glass. So, like, they look
like they live inside
beautiful glass houses. Can't wait. They're very, visually
very pretty,
important again on the same the same way
that insects are important. They're small,
(35:54):
but,
meaningful
on a sort
of ecosystem level because they connect,
nutrient Everything.
Yeah. Everything. Really. Literally everything. Like, every second
breath we take. Right?
Is algal,
produced.
Okay. Just for, like, that line. Okay. Every
second breath, we need to
follow this up with another conversation about that
(36:17):
because that statement in itself is pretty crazy.
Like For sure. That every bit of that
that there's, like, 10 words. So Yeah. We'll
go there next. I'll write an I have
to bring you on, put an article in
one of my newsletters about that too. Great.
Fantastic. So are you,
you've taken this you've transitioned fewer, started in
Greece, and then you're in in England, and
(36:37):
now you're in California. And you okay the
fires,
impact you? And
Oh, thank you for asking. Yeah. I mean,
it's very it's very hard,
to live in this brave new world. Right?
I mean, in Greece where I'm from, we've
we've,
we used to have, like, horrible heat waves.
I'd say once every five years when I
(36:59):
was kids, you know, and now it's definitely
every year, and there are catastrophic
wildfires that affect communities.
So and now, of course, in the winter
in California, we've the the fires in LA
have been
so devastating,
to watch.
We're thankfully,
unaffected here other than, you know, our air
quality is pretty poor. But
(37:21):
it's just I think what's terrifying is to
think that this is the sort of the
new normal. Right? That that is going to
keep happening and that
this is probably
every year from now is likely to have
more and more of these,
disasters and extreme climate events. And but in
all of this, you know, I have a
little girl. She's she's two years old. Like,
I look at her and I'm just,
(37:42):
you know, it just it just makes you
want to do even more, you know, because
I want her to have
want all of us and the future generations,
of course, to come to have to have
what we got. You know? Like, it's not
even that it's we already had a a
pretty,
a better planet than we have today. I
think that's that's kind of the sad part.
Right?
(38:03):
Important. It's important to recognize fight for it.
I want to fight for it. You know,
I want us all to fight for it.
And I think we can.
I'm largely optimistic. I think it it does
require will
and action,
and resilience. But
I think, you know, we could do it.
I love that. What a beautiful way to
(38:24):
end. We can do this like we do,
but we need to do the work. Right?
Yes. Exactly.
And we need to keep reading the beautiful
stories so that the stories come to life
about what's out there that you offer. Read,
Eleanor's work.
Read Nautilus.
Become a citizen scientist or
do more of it. Like, be part of
(38:45):
the solution
and bring the joy of learning about how
nature and art and society and culture and
everything connect because we are not living in
a vacuum. So thank you so much. Absolutely.
No. Thank you. Thanks, Jessica. It was really
great to connect. Awesome.
(39:12):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(39:32):
Anything else to add, Miles?
Yay. I was talking. Happy. Okay. Welcome, Elena
Casamiyah.
And I am so excited to
bring Elena to
to this this forum
because,
she's just the most joyful person. And and,
if you go onto YouTube and you watch
this video instead, we'll we're creating some short
videos. Elena has created, like, this background of
(00:27):
this beautiful,
like, grass,
and she's, like, kind of in it as,
like, a bit of tiny nature. So we'll
get to that conversation,
along the way.
But I discovered, Elena,
because,
I read this. And if you read my
newsletter, you'll see I read this really interesting
article about
this man in Mexico who
(00:49):
figured out how to,
create
the blue dye
that was in a yarn or
Mayan blue.
And it just took me down this path.
And I'm a scientist from past life and
connection between science and art and culture is
my thing. So as well as,
this beautiful person that I'm that I'm interacting
(01:11):
with now. So, Elena, please introduce yourself. Tell
us a little bit about who you are,
and give us a little bit about the
breadth. Like, I'm blown away by
just the the breadth of the work that
you do and and what you bring to
us. So, yeah. Yes. Well, thank you for
such a lovely introduction, Jessica. It's really nice
to be on the podcast.
(01:32):
Yeah. So I am a
scientist and writer.
In a in a previous life, I was
just doing a lot of science and my
specialty is algae.
And
I often used to get the question, you
know, like, why do you study algae?
It's just such a not a I mean,
actually, now people are more familiar with,
what they can do and where they are,
(01:53):
but it used to be sort of very
niche. And
the honest answer was that I actually found,
thinking about algae something to be quite romantic.
You know, this idea of single living cells
out in the ocean producing
oxygen for us to breathe, and, obviously, they're
not thinking about us at all.
They're not thinking at all in the same
(02:15):
way that we think.
But, anyway, it was something I found,
my own research to be very inspiring, but
also,
the work of other scientists to be very
inspiring. And
I love to tell stories. I love to
tell stories from my own research, but also
those of others. So right now,
I work as a writer, for mainly for
(02:36):
Nautilus Magazine, which is a science and culture
magazine.
And
the one of the nicest things about it
is that I don't really have a very
specific beat, so I don't
I cover a variety of topics whatever interests
me and the editors and that's often at
the intersection of science and art like you
mentioned Jessica the Mayan blue story was a
(02:57):
great example
of I think, he's a teacher and a
potter,
in Yucatan and Mexico. And he
rediscovered
the
blue pigment that the Mayans, his ancestors,
he is also Maya. He considers himself Maya.
That his ancestors were also using in their
(03:19):
pottery and sculptures. And so that was really
great,
to sort of, talk a little bit about
both the chemistry behind the process, but also
just about,
the art,
that he was he was doing.
But there's been so many so many stories,
you know, that,
come across I come across now in my
reporting.
(03:40):
And I think the one that we might
talk about today a little bit more is
the insect story
that I wrote last week. To interrupt you
for a sec because first of all, there's
so much humility going on here. Okay. So
first of all,
we've got a PhD
from Cambridge,
and and, like, this breadth of work that
and and just as a total aside, that
(04:01):
you studied, which I didn't really put the
two of them together, algae,
and which you pronounce algae in. I'm first
pronouncing it correctly. Yeah. And I was just
telling Elena about
the parrot fish eating
that thing, their source of and and she,
like, wrote it down. And, like, we have
to have this conversation about parrot fish at
some point along the way and, like, their
(04:22):
contribution to,
to the world by their eating algae and
then,
creating the sand of our most of our
white sand I know. That blew my mind.
I I really honestly didn't know anything about
it, and it's you know, you could you
really can spend
forever in a field and still not know,
like, most of the things
(04:42):
about what other people know in your field.
Science is a big like everybody else's work
too. You know? And yeah.
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because, I mean, I'm
looking at sort of just the breadth of
your work and reading, like, many, many titles
of articles
and of research, you know, they span between,
following really interesting humans
(05:03):
who've done really interesting work in science and
nature and that kind of stuff to
outer space to micro micro
to one celled organisms to,
art and culture. Like, it's, like, it's,
just so beautiful
to imagine your brain, you know, like the
swimming in so much joyful
(05:25):
curiosity
and that's going in so many different directions,
but that you narrow it down and you,
like, are able to focus on something and
really bring the story to life.
There aren't that many good science writers.
And I have to just offer it to
listeners, like, go to Nautilus Magazine,
go to, you know, we'll put the show
in the show notes how to reach, you
(05:46):
know, connect with a lot of these articles.
But they're so readable. They're so you just
feel like you're in the story.
And including, like, in the Pyrenees,
counting
bugs and birds and all that stuff. So
we'll talk about that. So
Thank you so much. That's such a great
compliment. And, that's really what drives me. You
know, it's a passion
(06:07):
to sort of connect exactly to that, to,
like, you know, the human spirit and how
we try to understand the world around us,
but also the introspection that that brings,
in terms of sort of the
the people who are involved and what that
means about our nature, our human nature.
Yeah. And just sort of to get to
the sort of, like, a sort of gritty
(06:27):
level of that,
the story that that we both know we
wanna share is,
just one of the many articles that was
about,
a scientist, a man, one of quite a
rare bunch,
who does something that seems like there should
be more people doing it,
who
found himself in the in
the mountains
(06:47):
in Europe, in the Pyrenees, right,
counting bugs because we need to
know date. We need data.
And it's gotta be done. Like, AI will
get there somehow, but AI, you know, has
to be trained by humans. And
so,
tell us the beginning of this or tell
us the story that you wrote about, and
then we can see where that goes. Yeah.
(07:09):
It it's an incredible story. I think so.
I have the main protagonist that is I
guess is a scientist called William Hawkes.
He's based at the University of Exeter in
The UK.
And he,
is one of apparently according to him about
50 to 100 scientists most,
who study insect migrations. So I didn't when
(07:31):
I came to the story I had found
it, I think, just looking,
on Eureka Alerts, which is a website where
new discoveries are sort of announced by various
universities.
And so I saw this and I thought,
insects migrate? You know, like, how have I
I mean, I maybe had heard of the
monarch butterfly. You know, I'm based in Southern
California.
(07:51):
We
have, monarch butterflies that come here in the
winter from Canada. Wow. I knew that the
monarch butterfly does this, but
I really
didn't know that a lot of insects do
this. And I certainly didn't know that it
is the biggest animal migration on Earth. I
mean, how mind blowing is it that most
(08:11):
people really, like, almost nobody, probably. Like, if
you count fractionally how much how many people
in the world know
about insect migrations. Like, we think we know,
you know, birds fly south for the winter,
but, like and we kind of have heard
about monarch butterflies if they're in our world
in The US.
But,
this is so important.
(08:31):
And,
you brought it to life. So keep going.
Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So
so, of course, I I I really wanted
to reach out to him, and we I
usually have, you know, quite short, short ish
conversations. But with this guy, we ended up
talking for an hour and a half.
I just couldn't let him go because Yeah.
There was just more and more that I
(08:52):
learned about insects and his favorite insect, the
one that the research,
is mostly based is, on the marmalade hoverfly,
which is which lives in exactly. What a
great name. Right? Of the marmalade hoverfly.
We don't have that here in in North
America, but we do have hoverflies.
The marmalade hoverfly is sort of like it
(09:14):
camouflages to look a bit like a bee
or a wasp, but it is a fly.
And so it undertakes this migration,
that,
William was studying.
It's so appropriate for him to be British
and it's to be You know? Right? Like,
there can't be a coincidence.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And so they had, set up basically,
(09:36):
there's a pass. So the insects migrate,
they undertake
these
I mean, the the the numbers are extraordinary.
You know, there's
tons and tons of biomass. You know, you
could think of it as just weight of
of of, of animal in the air. And
if you think about it that way, it
is the biggest migration on Earth. So, like,
(09:57):
it's the biggest movement of of animals across
the planet.
It is visible by radar. So we have
have, apparently, we've known about this since we've
had radars. You know, they can detect them.
But what we don't know is
what species are involved because that's not something
that our radar can detect. So
(10:18):
people
like, doctor Hawkes, you know, they go out
to these places to record the migrations. But
they're very difficult to record because insects are
very small. They can fly in a really
diffuse way. So, like, as just a tiny
human on the ground. Like, how do you
study that? Like, that's like a a very
specific challenge. And
(10:38):
he was telling me about some work that
he had come across and it wasn't even
real work. I mean, it was work, but
it wasn't in a very academic setting. But
this couple had been hiking through the Pyrenees,
and they walked through this narrow pass, and
they said that they witnessed this huge insect
migration. They recorded it, and it was in
the fifties.
(10:59):
And he was I have a little quote,
written. Like, he actually read it out to
me during our interview. He said, it is
rare in this time, this is in the
fifties,
to be permitted to taste the zest of
discovery,
which is usually permitted only to the ancients.
So this is how the people felt as
they were walking through the Pyrenees and they
(11:20):
saw a huge insect migration. The privilege just
the privilege of connecting so deeply with nature
to see it as
part of their world and that privilege of
being in it.
Yeah. And so and
he said that,
they weren't sure because this is,
in 2018 when he they decided to go
(11:42):
back to this place, basically, the Pyrenees where
this couple had recorded something
and to see if they could still
find insects migrating, and they did. And so,
the reason the past is important is because
the insects are sort of funneled into it
Mhmm. As they're trying to cross the mountains.
And so,
that's a if you're a, you know, tiny
(12:03):
human that we are, you can just sit
in one place and you can just record,
the numbers. And it because it's sort of
like a
concentrated funneling spot for them, you can actually,
on the ground,
take measurements, catch the insects so that you
can identify them. So that was, like, the
big discovery was we knew that because of
radar imaging that insects were migrating.
(12:25):
But this was a really great spot to
actually take some on the ground,
measurements of what the insects were.
And so yeah. And so he spent
four summers doing this.
Give us a sense. How how big is
a marmalade hoverfly? Is it? Well, I think
tiny, like,
20,
The size of a bee or the size
(12:46):
of a okay. So it's like so just
imagine
being in this space where they're all,
you know, consolidated
into this narrow chute
and being in there and
and, like, you know, I'm picturing the birds,
you know, Alfred Hitchcock and the birds. Like,
it's gotta be
a pretty freakish commitment, right, to, like,
be in that space and
(13:08):
to not to not then to come back.
Right?
Exactly. And to come back day after day
after day no matter what the weather. Right?
Because they,
you are
in it's a pretty,
you're pretty high up in terms of altitude.
So even in the summer and they were
recording
at the end of summer and in the
start of fall. So it could be pretty
(13:28):
cold. You know, he sent me some images.
There was, like, frost on the ground. So
they're hiking up to the spot, you know,
from the local village
at dawn because they want to be able
to be there
right at dawn because that's when some of
the insects start flying.
They want to see if the weather conditions
make a difference. So they're doing it all
kinds of days, rainy days, windy days, sunny
(13:51):
days,
and they're trapping Capturing as many metrics as
they can
so that there can be some
analysis. Because you you can't just, like, if
you only just count, you've lost so much
opportunity, right, to, like,
figure out. Exactly.
Exactly. And so and I think his job
in particular was to set up these traps
(14:11):
so that they can sample a proportion of
the migration that is then representative of the
whole migration
and identify who's there.
And most of the species are actually flies,
which I think was a surprise. You know?
There's obviously dragonflies
and other insects,
moths and butterflies that also migrate, but the
(14:32):
majority are flies. So I think that was
new.
And then
most of them are also pollinators. So that
was
already, like, a really huge thing that suddenly
and this is where where my you know,
it's not just his journey and, like, this
human spirit of, like, hiking up the mountain
to take these these measurements that most people
would probably just find obscure.
(14:53):
It's that it matters, and it matters because
it connects. Like, the scale
suddenly begins to add up, and these things
matter to us to you know, in a
way that we probably hadn't considered before. So
because these insects are pollinators,
they're cross pollinating,
and they're bringing pollen from one location some
(15:13):
to somewhere very far away.
And so they're bringing that genetic diversity,
and they're helping,
things grow
in very far away locations, you know, from
where, the pollen would have originally
started. So one example he gave me was
that,
you know, as the climate is shifting and,
you know, we have places that are becoming,
(15:34):
you know, that are experiencing drought, one of
the things that the insects are helping do
is they're helping bring pollen from drought resistant
locations to the places so that suddenly you're
bringing in that diversity that could help the
whole ecosystem recover.
So, I mean, and they need to do
more work to sort of quantify that and
understand that a bit better. But now that
(15:54):
they know which species are involved, they can
begin to do this. And
I mean,
how absolutely
mind blowing. And then the other one that
just I couldn't
blew my mind as well. I mean, I
I kept like I said, I just couldn't
get enough of the story.
Is that when the insects die, they fertilize
the land. So in a way you have,
(16:15):
you know, things that were born in The
UK and in Wales and someone like these
flies that hatch there.
They die in Spain
And with their bodies, they bring nutrients to
Spain that then allow
things in Spain to grow. And that's important
for, again, for the ecosystems
in Spain. So everything's interconnected.
(16:35):
And sometimes it's on the wing of an
insect, you know, and it's sort of just,
wonderful how the small, the large and the
and the Us kind of as,
observers and and participants
kind of all comes together in in this
story.
It's so, so important. Such a beautiful
(16:55):
image such beautiful imagery,
to just imagine, like, you know, again, this
sort of chute
that narrows through these magnificent mountains and
and the just the endless cycles of nature,
the seasons of nature
of moving through, and that it's all a
system. You know, we think we talk about
biodiversity, and
(17:17):
nothing lives in a vacuum. I mean, that
seems like a vacuum, like shooting through, right?
But when you actually look at what's in
the traps alone,
you know, you've got this diverse set of
flies of all types of animals, and you've
got
the ones that are getting through and the
ones that are dying and creating or fertilizing
and the ones that are repollinating in another
place. Like, it is one big system, and
(17:40):
we need to recognize
and be much more conscious of systems of
nature
so that we
don't think we can just put I mean,
this whole, like, monofarming
and monospecies,
like, it's it doesn't nature doesn't work that
way. Right? Like, they it all interacts between
flora, fauna, fungi, phenomena. Like, it's my four
(18:00):
you know, my four
f sounding word.
And, like, this imagery just brings that to
life.
Yeah. Absolutely.
And, you know, the their podcast is a
lot of it is about resilience. And one
of the
things that I,
you know, I I asked him about is,
you know, is this are these insects threatened?
(18:20):
You know, like, in this year Of course.
Yeah. About, you know, there's a lot of
doom and gloom stories. And, actually, he was
very positive. You know, he said, no. You
know, these are very hardy species. They have
learned to do these migrations over
five generations for the hoverfly. You know? It
comes down
across the Pyrenees into Spain, and then it
takes another
(18:42):
three or four generations for them to return
back to The UK.
And they, you know,
they are very adaptable. And so he was
saying that they navigate
by
a compass, like a sun compass that they
have on their heads. I mean, like, wow.
So they know where they are and they
can,
(19:03):
they have, you know,
they can eat a variety of foods. So
they're
he does he didn't personally feel that they're
necessarily threatened by by ongoing climate change. And
in fact, they could be a solution to
some of the ongoing
problems because they're so resilient.
We have to learn from them. Like, we
have to figure out what it is that
(19:23):
makes them
fight
the the pollution and the,
the human the development and all the things
that
would prevent them thriving
and that they just keep so, like, that's
yeah. That thank you for bringing it up.
That is what lights me up. Like, how
does this happen that they're not
suffering
and threatened, that they're keeping cycle going and
(19:45):
they're keeping
the movement of of large swaths of
of land
all connected? Exactly. I mean, there's just a
fly. You know, a fly
hatching somewhere in The UK is going to
end up giving
birth to its, you know, eggs that will
hatch into maggots. Amazing.
Right? It's amazing.
(20:06):
Yeah. I'm I mean, we're very familiar with
the monarch again, some of us are in
states more than others, are familiar with the
monarch butterflies
migration. And if anybody's been following it, they
are super threatened. Like, the numbers are drastically
down. They're not getting I actually don't know
don't remember what it's you know, whether they're
not getting the food they want or they're
(20:26):
not getting the space they want or they're
not getting,
something else that they want.
You might know the answer to that, but,
like, just to put it in perspective that
that this is happening and we don't even
know it, but it's
it's thriving.
Yeah. But, yeah, no, you're absolutely right, Jessica,
is that I mean,
I'm sure that for every positive story, there's
(20:48):
probably some examples of
extinctions and local threats.
And it's true that especially with insects, there's
so many, there's more species
out there that we know about than there
are ones that we do know about. And
so,
you know, maybe it's not necessarily the time
to be overly optimistic. You know, we are
(21:09):
losing We need some hope, and this is
a sign of hope. Right? Yeah.
Yeah.
The other one that he mentioned,
I didn't know I didn't know the species,
but it's, like, it's called the painted lady
butterfly.
I have to call it, but it's a
it looks a little bit like a monarch
to me. It's very pretty. But he was
saying they have some evidence that it's able
(21:29):
to fly across the Sahara
during its migrations
because it travels,
to Sub Saharan Africa in the Sahel region.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, so they think that's true.
They haven't documented it again, like, in the
super rigorous, empirical, scientific way. And they really
want to do that, so they're hoping to
raise some funding to get that work done.
(21:52):
But how amazing would that be, you know,
to learn about a butterfly that can fly
over the biggest desert on Earth? You know?
Whatever. You know? If it can do that,
imagine what we can do.
Exactly. Right? If we could learn how and
we keep doing that. Like, we we find
this this like, I wrote an article recently
in, my newsletter just even about
(22:14):
the,
Gila monster
and how we got all these weight loss,
the the semiglutides,
like, all of the it's biomimicry. Like, we're,
like, all over it. Right? Like, for everything
we do,
if you can trace so much of it
back to scientists who are paying attention to
nature and learning from nature because nature's got
(22:34):
it so figured out. It's been, you know,
millions and millions and millions of years. A
lot of these species have survived, and and
their resilience is what we can learn from
from and we can thrive from.
Just such an important message. Right?
Yeah. I agree. To that to that end,
we were talking we started to chat before
we started recording about citizen science.
So you've got this guy who's one of,
(22:56):
like, 50 to 100 in the whole world
counting insects,
which is so important, right, to, like, know
who's who's what's surviving, what's not surviving, what
can we learn from them,
what value they serve in a system. So
we we went to citizen science. Like, you
know, there's apps like SEEK and,
(23:17):
Merlin Bird app. And, like, there's a lot
of citizen science that just the ones even
I'm aware of.
I'm guessing that you've got some further knowledge
about this in in your exploration. Yeah.
I'm trying to think I'm trying to remember.
There's definitely in the in The US, there's
initiatives where uncertain I think, isn't it oh,
(23:37):
wait. There's a Christmas day bird count. Is
that right? Or is that I don't that's
neat. Yeah. That might be either in The
UK or, The US. I'm not so sure.
But on that day, you're sort of meant
to go outside,
take a nature walk, and then record the
species that you see.
And that's a big citizen science project.
Yeah. I wish I I could remember now,
(23:58):
where exactly that's based.
We'll put it in the show notes. Don't
worry. We'll find it. Sure. Great. Thanks.
There are butterfly walks that that people do.
You know? And, again, that's,
through an app, and you sort of record
the statistics of, like,
where you see them on your nature walk.
And,
I haven't heard about other insect tracking apps
(24:21):
like that. Like, those are the two examples
that immediately come to mind.
But I think it's a it's a really
huge opportunity. Like, if it isn't out there,
and I might be wrong, it might already
be out there. But if it isn't out
there, like,
insects are,
species that, you know, we share our world
with, you know, wherever we are.
(24:42):
And so if we can,
engage more people to just record them,
as they go about their daily lives, like
we can certainly,
learn a lot more.
And,
yeah, so for for scientists like like,
William Hawkes, you know, having that support network
would be really important.
(25:03):
Because, you know, in you know, we tend
to ignore insects, but if we just take
a take a closer look, like, it's very
easy to contribute because there's so many of
us, so many eyes on the on the
ground.
Take a look. Well, I mean, it's not
just that we ignore them. We actually look
you know, we don't know. Right? And and
the ignorance leads to
finding ways to get rid of insects. You
(25:24):
know, there's
a common story
that thirty or forty years ago, you would
take a drive in The United States. It's
probably the same thing in Europe,
and your windshield would be just covered in
bugs. Right? Like, it was like a big
pain in the neck. And
now
you don't.
And it's like, paying attention to that, it
(25:45):
it isn't a good thing.
But if we don't know, it's not a
good thing for
for reasons that, you know, insects are part
of the systems that we need,
then
we we're not paying attention to things that
are important.
So, yeah.
Yeah. And I mean, there are some you
(26:06):
know, AI is such a complicated question.
I know that's outside of the scope of
what we wanna talk about. No. No. No.
I I'm happy to talk about AI. Go
for it. Certainly. I I was just thinking
that, you know, there's lots of image recognition
apps now available that help identify
species too. And,
that could be a really, interesting use of
(26:26):
of AI. You know, like, everybody nowadays
carries a smartphone on them. Often, we don't
know what the insects we're looking at are.
You know, apps can help with that, and
then that can, you know, I can see
how that could be used to inform, like,
data gathering by, like, the science programs and
Actually, for I I mean, for for in
case there's there's people don't actually even know
(26:48):
what citizen science is because it's really quite
a new concept.
Can you just explain
in your beautiful poetic version of
Yeah. I think citizen
science
is sort of a movement to engage
people who are interested and inspired by science,
(27:08):
but are not necessarily
trained, you know, they're not academic scientists themselves,
and they participate
in research projects
by helping collect some of the,
necessary,
or data that can inform analysis and studies
and so on.
So surveys is a really straightforward
example of that. So obviously scientists can't be
(27:31):
everywhere at the same time,
you know, collecting
information about
characteristics or ecosystems even.
So the one prog program that
is close to my own research on on
algae is there are now citizen scientists who,
as part of their tourism to Antarctica, for
(27:51):
example, will collect will help collect samples. Oh,
wow.
Yeah. Of Clankton because, you know, so few
so few people gets to go to Antarctica,
but because that business is growing, like, the
tourism industry is growing,
they can
help,
they can help collect some of that information,
send samples. They they help collect and send
(28:11):
samples back to, labs and analyze that data.
Mhmm. In How great is it to be
part of that? Right? And you don't have
to I've just put it out. You don't
have to actually go to that's really cool
if you do. Make sure you bring some
specimen bottles.
But if you you don't have to go
there to be part of the future of
protect of of
(28:32):
living in a world that is healthier and,
and and
back to where, you know, much of it
was before we started
destroying it,
that, you know, just go for a hike.
You can
use SEEK or any or Merlin or whatever
and, like, just record. You know, it's so
easy. Just go out, look out your window,
(28:53):
and there's probably a bug or a piece
of a plant or an animal or an
insect or or a bird or there's something.
And every one of those
pieces of data matters,
and gets Absolutely. Absolutely. And,
the nice thing is that with these initiatives,
like, there's they're already,
usually,
(29:13):
formatted in a certain way that is
kind of allows, like, the recordings to be
in a format that then scientists can directly
analyze. So, like, that's that's great because sporadic
observations are cool, but if you could have,
like, a system in place that's a bit
more rigorous, that helps, you know, downstream for
when,
the statistics and the models come into come
(29:35):
into play. So
but also it can be just other types
of engagement. You know, one of the
other stories that I've covered is the use
of citizen
scientists, in helping,
combat
plastic pollution also,
in polar regions. So that was a story
about, Arctic
(29:55):
plastic. And
and again, it like the thing that I
love about this is often that happens very
organically. Like, people care. You know? It's not
just scientists who get to do this work,
but people as soon as we see plastic
pollution, you know, on the beach, most of
us want to just reach down and do
something about this. And so the citizen science
programs, what they do is not only they
(30:16):
kind of combine
trash collection and, like,
beach cleanups
with them trying to identify, like, the sources
of the plastic, what we're looking at, where
did it come from. Because often,
they shouldn't be there. Right? Like, they shouldn't
be there. This is somebody's responsible, so somebody
can be held accountable.
And it just helps inform, like, helps provide
(30:38):
a little bit of, like, the the data
and the the argument behind,
you know, things that scientists are trying to
do. And citizen scientists are really, really,
helpful for that.
Yeah. And to to add to that, like,
you know, if you experience
if you're paying attention and you're experiencing
this
interaction with nature and you're, for example,
(31:00):
you know, noticing garbage on the beach or
in the ocean or wherever you or in
the in the river or wherever you are,
and then
you are part of the solution, and then
you talk about it. Right? Like, you tell
your friends. You tell you talk about it
with the people that you're with. Like, the
the story spreads, and then
everyone start you know, more people start being
(31:20):
part of the story and part of the
solution.
I interviewed
Val Tovar, who's who was a director of
conservation ocean conservation
at Loggerhead, the marine life center near me.
And she was telling us, you know, the
process of realizing that there were
a staggering number of cigarette
butts on the beach.
And, you know, they that and from what
(31:43):
I understand, that's a problem everywhere. Right? Like,
people think it'll just it'll just disintegrate. It's
not it's not littering. You know what I
mean? And it turns out that there's a
zillion literally, a zillion microplastic
beads inside a cigarette
filter. And,
by putting you know, it can lead to
solutions. So the result
of them learning
(32:03):
by ex by examining what was in the
garbage that they were collecting off the beach,
they put,
ashtrays, you know, garbage garbage
receptacles for cigarette butts.
And the number of cigarette butts went staggeringly
down. Like, it's all part of the solution,
you know, to get the data,
to recognize that it's not as simple as
(32:25):
you think it is, and that
that nature isn't just gonna
take care of it all, like, whatever we
do to it. So
And so many people care. You know? I
think that's the other
misconception. We often feel like, oh, well,
the majority are just out there and they
don't,
you know, they're just part of the problem.
But, actually,
you know, if you give people a a
(32:47):
solution or you you help them
make, you know, become a part of the
solution, they're very,
they do care. You know, they want Especially
kids. Like, do this with your family. Like,
kids will inspire you and then make you
like, what do you mean you're not picking
that up? What do you mean? So, and
their pickup technology so much faster than
(33:08):
adults anyway. So a fantastic on the ground.
Right?
So tell us where you're going like, what
some of the fun things are that you're
working on now and where you're going and
how we can find you. And and then
I'm gonna keep in touch because I just
adore chatting with you. Thank you. Thanks, Jessica.
Yeah. You know, one of the things that
I've this has been a big leap for
(33:28):
me, actually. You know,
doing focusing more on the writing professionally.
So I'm really excited about,
where it's taking me.
You know, the stories are becoming,
stories that I I personally care more and
more about. I mean, it's not that I
didn't care about any of my previous reporting.
I do.
But,
(33:49):
I'm focusing now on sort of longer, deeper
dives into certain issues.
And I'm hoping to write a book next.
You know? I gather you've started. It's about
Yeah. Getting this wrong. It's not protozoa. It's
much something a little a lot more complicated
than that. Bioluminescent
something. I don't know. Go for it. Tell
me. Tell us what it is.
(34:09):
Well, you know,
I actually already wrote one book.
I've written
half of another, and I'm trying to start
a third. So so there's a lot of
well, I'm like, yeah. That's great. Yeah. The
first one I wrote,
it's not published yet, and I'm going to
save it for a little bit later, but
it's
a part biography.
(34:31):
And it's about sort of some time I
I spent in the ocean doing,
doing science and
sort of it's an expedition
memoir and sort of gives a lot of
background for the algal science, but,
it's on the back burner.
I just I wrote it during the pandemic.
That was really great.
(34:51):
And now I'm planning to write a book
much more,
less biographical, but much more about just the
algal world and all the various things that
we can learn from algae. But hopefully do
it, you know, with the with the skills
that I've
learned by writing for Nautilus or connecting it
to, like, culture and art and bigger ideas.
(35:13):
Beautiful.
Yeah. It's so cool to see some of
the photography
the microphotography.
Oh, that's nice. Like, because
algae is not a simple
single cell. Like like, there's nothing simplistic or
boring
when you get down to that level.
Like, at all. So Oh, I couldn't agree
more. I mean, they're they're jewels. You know?
(35:34):
Like, they're so beautiful, and some of them,
have membranes that are made of silica that
is kinda like glass. So, like, they look
like they live inside
beautiful glass houses. Can't wait. They're very, visually
very pretty,
important again on the same the same way
that insects are important. They're small,
(35:54):
but,
meaningful
on a sort
of ecosystem level because they connect,
nutrient Everything.
Yeah. Everything. Really. Literally everything. Like, every second
breath we take. Right?
Is algal,
produced.
Okay. Just for, like, that line. Okay. Every
second breath, we need to
follow this up with another conversation about that
(36:17):
because that statement in itself is pretty crazy.
Like For sure. That every bit of that
that there's, like, 10 words. So Yeah. We'll
go there next. I'll write an I have
to bring you on, put an article in
one of my newsletters about that too. Great.
Fantastic. So are you,
you've taken this you've transitioned fewer, started in
Greece, and then you're in in England, and
(36:37):
now you're in California. And you okay the
fires,
impact you? And
Oh, thank you for asking. Yeah. I mean,
it's very it's very hard,
to live in this brave new world. Right?
I mean, in Greece where I'm from, we've
we've,
we used to have, like, horrible heat waves.
I'd say once every five years when I
(36:59):
was kids, you know, and now it's definitely
every year, and there are catastrophic
wildfires that affect communities.
So and now, of course, in the winter
in California, we've the the fires in LA
have been
so devastating,
to watch.
We're thankfully,
unaffected here other than, you know, our air
quality is pretty poor. But
(37:21):
it's just I think what's terrifying is to
think that this is the sort of the
new normal. Right? That that is going to
keep happening and that
this is probably
every year from now is likely to have
more and more of these,
disasters and extreme climate events. And but in
all of this, you know, I have a
little girl. She's she's two years old. Like,
I look at her and I'm just,
(37:42):
you know, it just it just makes you
want to do even more, you know, because
I want her to have
want all of us and the future generations,
of course, to come to have to have
what we got. You know? Like, it's not
even that it's we already had a a
pretty,
a better planet than we have today. I
think that's that's kind of the sad part.
Right?
(38:03):
Important. It's important to recognize fight for it.
I want to fight for it. You know,
I want us all to fight for it.
And I think we can.
I'm largely optimistic. I think it it does
require will
and action,
and resilience. But
I think, you know, we could do it.
I love that. What a beautiful way to
(38:24):
end. We can do this like we do,
but we need to do the work. Right?
Yes. Exactly.
And we need to keep reading the beautiful
stories so that the stories come to life
about what's out there that you offer. Read,
Eleanor's work.
Read Nautilus.
Become a citizen scientist or
do more of it. Like, be part of
(38:45):
the solution
and bring the joy of learning about how
nature and art and society and culture and
everything connect because we are not living in
a vacuum. So thank you so much. Absolutely.
No. Thank you. Thanks, Jessica. It was really
great to connect. Awesome.
(39:12):
This has been a production of BLI Studios
produced by me, Kai.
Follow along with our other BLI produced shows
at balancinglife'sissues.com/podcast-BLI.
Got an idea for the show? Email me,
Kai, at balancing life's issues dot com. And
don't forget to stay in touch with your
host, Jessica, at jessica@winwinwinmindset.com.
(39:32):
Anything else to add, Miles?
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