December 31, 2024 • 48 mins
In this episode, Dr. Lee Long sits down with Lisa Marie Shaughnessy to talk about her journey from radio to mental health. She discusses technology in advanced psychiatric evaluations, hormone therapy, medical interventions, and finding the right balance. Her new book called "Testosterone The Next Drug Epidemic" is available from where ever books are sold.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and in thisepisode I sit down with Lisa
Marie Shaughnessy to explore herinspiring road from a career in
radio to the world of mentalhealth.
We discuss her book calledTestosterone the Next Drug
Epidemic, and we delve intotopics which include the role of
(00:25):
technology in advancedpsychiatric evaluations, the
impacts hormone therapy had onher life and others like her,
and various medicalinterventions and the importance
of finding the balance in yourtreatment.
This enlightening conversationoffers valuable insights and
actionable takeaways for anyoneseeking to enhance their mental
(00:49):
wellness.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Welcome.
Thank you, lisa Marie.
Thank you for being here today.
Yeah, I am excited to dive into this topic.
I'm excited to talk in to thistopic.
I'm excited to talk to youabout your book, testosterone
(01:13):
the Next Drug Epidemic.
I'm excited to just hear fromyou.
I'm trying to think of how longyou and I have known one
another and it feels like a longtime, about eight years ago.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
So it was when I was at Sante Center for Healing.
That's when we first met.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Okay, yeah, all right , that's right, and you used to
be in radio.
I did for 25 years.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
And so what did tell us what you did in radio?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Okay, so I want to back up.
I'm going to share with you whyI got into radio and how
grateful I am to be here on yourcouch today.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Okay, because when I was 17 years old, my dad called
a family meeting.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And in this family meeting he said I bought this
company and it was a companythat the Disney's owned.
So my dad was in broadcastingas well.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So it was a company that the Disney's owned, which
is what led us to Dallas from LA.
So, anyway, I stood up in thatfamily meeting and I said I am
not going to work for you, I amnot going to work in radio, I am
not going to do this, I want tobe a social worker.
And he looks at me and he saysdoll, doll, doll, you can't be a
(02:23):
social worker.
He goes, you need to go intoradio because you can make money
.
Okay, so fast forward two yearsafter I graduated from high.
Well, I graduated from highschool.
And then, a year after Igraduated from high school, I
reached out to the generalmanager of KEGL, a Dallas radio
station.
(02:43):
Norman Rao was his name, and Icalled Norman and I said Norman,
I want to be your receptionist.
And he goes, lisa, he goes, Ihave a receptionist.
I said no, norman, you don'tunderstand.
I will be the best receptionistyou've ever hired.
Like that's how naive I was,you know so, but I knew I was a
good receptionist.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
How did you know this ?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Because during high school I worked at a hair salon
as the receptionist andeverybody loved me, so I knew I
would be a good receptionist,right.
So anyway, he goes, well, comeon in.
And, um, he goes, we'll talk,but I have, I already have
(03:22):
someone in that role.
I'm like okay, so I go in and Imeet with Norman, and this was
in the Xerox center in LasColinas, that's where the radio
station was, and I lived in LasColinas.
Okay, so that's where I went tohigh school and all of that.
So anyway, I go in and we'remeeting and uh, he says, well,
my receptionist resigned today.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
What.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Now, you didn't write that resignation letter for you
, did you?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm kidding, I know.
And I said they did.
And he goes, yes, and I said,well, I'm going to be the best
receptionist that you've everhired.
And so that's how I got intoradio.
I became the receptionist atKEGL.
Within six months I waspromoted to programming and
promotions assistant, allbecause the program director
(04:07):
walked into Norman's office andsaid she is running this radio
station up at the front desk.
I want her back with me.
I had to go into sales, and soI moved from Dallas to Lincoln,
nebraska, to take my first salesjob, and the reason why I did
(04:28):
that was because my dad told methat I had to start in sales in
a small market.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Okay so.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Dallas was too big of a market for you to start in
sales, in his opinion.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
In his opinion Okay, okay, so I moved to Lincoln,
nebraska, but I turned down thejob the first time and I didn't
go until the second time and theand my dad just happened to own
the radio station that I turnedthe job down on.
OK so and I turned it down and Inever told him why I turned the
job down, because I went and Iinterviewed and I came back and
(05:00):
I was like, yeah, I'm not goingup there until several months
later and I was still workingfor the Eagle and he said so,
doll, why'd you turn down thejob?
Because I wasn't going to tellmy dad why I turned down the job
, because he had the wrong manin the position up there.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
You didn't want to work for the gentleman that was
in.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
No, there was no way.
I was going to work for him.
Okay, and how do you tell yourfather that?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
You know, yeah.
And especially, you're all of21 years old.
So who are you Right?
And here's this guy up there.
But there was no way I wasgoing to go to work for that man
.
And so I finally said somethingand I said dad, I said I'm not
going to work for that guy, hegoes so you?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
So you found a way to tell him.
Yeah, I love that, because heasked me Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Okay, so I wasn't going to volunteer.
It wasn't.
I didn't feel that it was myplace.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Who am I to tell him how to run his radio station?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
right, okay, fair enough.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And so I told him and he's like duh, why didn't you
tell me he goes, I'm firing himand he goes and I'm putting Dan
Charleston in to be the generalmanager.
So I went up and re-interviewedand so when I re-interviewed,
that's when I moved up therebecause I could go to work for
(06:15):
Dan, I could trust Dan, I couldrespect Dan, I was the owner's
daughter, so I had a lot goingagainst me.
Anyway, yeah, that makes sense.
Okay, it does it it makes had alot going against me anyway.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Okay, it makes life a lotharder when you're in that
position.
Sure, and I was a remoteowner's daughter, so my dad
wasn't involved in theday-to-day.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
He wasn't a known entity, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, so he wasn't in the day-to-day, sure.
So I went to work there and youknow, I got my feet wet in
sales, so went in sales.
So I worked there for two years, actually three years, and then
I resigned and went to work forthe country station and that's
when my life completelydramatically changed.
And it changed because I cameout of the shadow of my father.
(07:01):
Okay, I had earned a name formyself by going to this other
station and so by going to thecountry station, that's where my
career blossomed and throughthat then I got a job offer to
move to Phoenix, arizona, and goto work for Buck Owens, who was
the premier radio operator inthe country and a country star.
And I worked there for nineyears and you know, that's where
I really kind of became.
(07:21):
Lisa Marie Shaughnessy was inPhoenix.
Because that I came out of theshadow the shadow because it can
be tough to do that, sure, youknow.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, and then I spent 25 years in the industry
and I loved it, but I always hada burning desire to be in
behavioral health ever since Iwas 17 years old.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
What drove that burning desire?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah.
So when our family moved fromLA to Dallas, that was a really
hard time for me.
Okay, I was a freshman in highschool, and so I was a freshman
in high school, starting inDallas, texas, from California.
That already was something.
Talk about a culture shock,100% culture shock.
(08:05):
And my parents' marriage wasfalling apart, okay, at the same
time.
So they separated six monthsafter we moved here, our lives
became chaotic and for me, I wasalways I was the one that would
go and say we have adysfunctional family and
(08:28):
everyone would say, oh, everyonehas a dysfunctional family.
So I always had a passion forit, I had a desire for it.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
So you kind of felt like, in that sense you were the
canary in the coal mine, likeyou were saying something's off
here, correct, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes, but of course my voice was pushed down, pushed
down.
So I had to find my way, and Ifound my way the hard way, the
good way, the best way, theright way, whatever that way is,
I have had to find my way,gotcha, and so that's why I've
(09:01):
always had a passion for it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And plus.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
I'm an avid reader.
I am, as my former husbandcalls me, a professional
workshop participant.
Because I love to go toeverything and I love to delve
deep into that, not only tounderstand in general, but also
to help me grow as a human being.
Understand in general, but alsoto help me grow as a human
(09:28):
being, and I believe it's mybelief that I think, um, at some
point in all of our lives andI'm going to use that all of our
lives we need to see atherapist.
At some point in our lives,whether we're in crisis or
whether we want to get to thenext level in our career.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, I always look at it too is the idea of
self-actualization.
It's like we were not creatednor designed to live in
isolation and there's somethingto us having a sense of
community.
but I don't want to say educatedcommunity, but maybe skilled
(10:06):
community in a certain area youknow, like, if you want to, if
your desire is to be an athlete,you know you're not going to go
hang around the garden club tobecome a better athlete.
You'll become a better gardenerand there's all things great
with the garden club.
But if you're looking to be abetter athlete, being in the
garden club is not going to helpyou in your athletics Right.
(10:27):
And so that self-actualizationis a sense of finding that
psychologically minded communitythat helps you press into new
heights of your psychology 100%,absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And as my mother says , it is will and desire.
When you have will and desire,that meet, and for me, my will
and desire is incongruent, it'scongruent with both, and so
that's where I'm living the lifethat I feel that God wants me
to live.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, I love that.
What a blessing to you and tothe people that you're around,
because when we're living thelife that we were intended for,
then it tends to be a blessingeverywhere.
I always say to people you know, as a parent, when I sit down
with my kids or my family tohave dinner, I don't pick and
choose who gets dinner thatnight.
(11:26):
It's like dinner is for all.
Everybody gets to eat.
Why?
Because I love my family.
Well, if we believe that we areloved in that same way by God
or whatever your faith traditionis, then it spans to all.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And so that's really neat.
So you went from radio and nowwhere are you now?
Tell our listeners where youare now.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Which I think is so cool.
I know, okay, I have my dreamjob.
Yeah, you do I have my dreamjob I love?
Okay, I have my dream job.
Yeah, you do, I have my dreamjob.
I love my job.
It is everything that God hasprepared me for, and I work for
Amen Clinics and at Amen Clinicswe have 11 clinics across the
country.
I represent the Dallas FortWorth Clinic and Dr Daniel Amen
(12:20):
is our founder, who has written45 books.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I did not realize it was that many.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yes, 45 books.
12 of them are New York Timesbestsellers, that's fantastic.
So, and I feel very honored andprivileged to be able to work
for Amen Clinics, and what we dois we take the psychiatric
evaluation to the next level.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That's a good way to say it.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah.
So it's the next level, becausewhen you as therapist or let's
just say the general public areworking with families or
individuals and they're stuck,you know they're not moving
forward.
Something intuitively you knowis going on in their brain that
(13:06):
maybe needs to be looked at sothat they can move forward in
their life.
That's where we come in withSPECT imaging, and SPECT is
single photon emission computedtomography, and what that is is
nuclear medicine.
So we're going in and we'relooking at the blood flow in the
brain.
We're going to be able to seewhere the blood flow is getting,
(13:27):
or where the brain is gettingadequate blood flow, where it's
not getting enough blood flowand where it's getting too much
blood flow.
So we can actually see dementia20 years in advance.
A lot of times that scarespeople, but a lot of times
people want to know.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I think it's invigorating, because if it were
a death sentence, so to speak,if you couldn't alter it, if it
was just a fact and it was anoncoming train and there was no
changing the trajectory of thattrain, I would say I don't want
to know.
But the fact of the matter is,and we know, many things can be
(14:09):
done to change the trajectory ofthat outcome.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Many things, yeah, I mean okay.
So for dementia and Alzheimer's, for example, which we see, we
see that quite a bit.
One of the things that peoplecan do if they have dementia and
Alzheimer's is go to hyperbaricoxygen therapy.
That will change their brain by10%, which is going to help
(14:37):
their brain operate better whilethey are in this state, and
that's just one little thing.
They're changing their diet.
That can be a game changer forpeople.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
You know, one of the things that has really struck me
is the fact that because fulldisclosure my mom unfortunately
had Alzheimer's and has sincepassed a number of years ago,
and so I have been on a quest tounderstand it, to make sure
that it doesn't get passed down.
(15:12):
She had a million wonderfultraits and those I want to be
passed down, but this one Idon't.
And one of the things that I'veseen is sleep.
Is that you, like you're sayinglike we can look at a brain
with a spec image and no, 20years in advance, we can also
look at someone's sleep hygieneand see that 20 years in advance
(15:32):
, like their sleep is a problem,and cleaning up the sleep
hygiene can be a really positiveoutcome.
And so it's these really simplethings that we can lean into,
that we can potentially changethe trajectory of where things
are going in our life.
And I think that knowledge canbe power if knowledge is applied
(15:56):
appropriately and it's notfearful and it's not shaming,
but we look at it and say, ok,what's next?
And it's not shaming, but welook at it and say, okay, what's
next.
So Amen Clinic has been such anamazing thing for you.
It's been such an amazing thingfor many people.
I mean, I'm trying to think of,you would know this way better
(16:16):
than me, but I know that he'sdone more than how many scans
has he?
How many scans has the AmenClinic done?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So we have a database of over 250,000 scans.
We are the largest SPECTimaging database in the world.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, nobody comes close to us.
And here's a fascinating thing.
So Dr Amen learned about SPECTimaging from a conference APA
conference.
He was there.
He went to this session.
They were talking about SPECTimaging and that's when he
became interested in it.
He has been criticized also forwhat he does, okay, and so he's
(16:57):
had a lot of critics.
But he learned it at the APAand so what he's done is he's
taken that, he took the ball andhe ran with it Right.
You know, and that's whatpioneers do, that's right, you
know, they take the ball andthey run with it and he, he has
done amazing work and he haschanged people's lives every
(17:18):
single day.
And I should say he, we, and Isay we okay, because, yes, he
pioneered Amen Clinics, but wehave 60 board certified
psychiatrists on staff with usacross the country.
We also have, I would say,probably eight to 10 functional
medicine doctors across thecountry.
(17:39):
We have nurse practitionersacross the country.
We have a few therapists not alot of therapists, but we have a
few therapists because what welike to do is we like to partner
with therapists like you guys.
Okay, because we know ourpatients.
We're a destination, right,people are coming to us for
three days and then they're.
(18:01):
They may be leaving, some maystay and they may work with the
doctors remotely.
But if somebody needs to doEMDR, for example, and they live
in Fort Worth, well, they'regoing to come here.
Or, let's say, we recommendneurofeedback as part of the
process in helping heal thebrain, well, they're going to
(18:22):
come see Jeff, you know.
So they're going to come herefor neurofeedback.
That's why it's reallyimportant for us to be able to
partner with providers all overthe country, all over the world,
for that matter, because wehave, there's a Brazilian family
that comes to us.
Every year.
They come, they get scans.
They basically shut down theAtlanta clinic because that's
(18:42):
how busy we are with this family.
So, um, and we have familiesthat come from London, spain, um
, I have one that I've justemailed this morning that I'm
working with in South Africa.
So it's from all over the world.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, well, it's, it's a game changer, right, and
it's it's finding what.
I think that what we're movingto in medicine we've gone from
where a person was a generalistto be a person being a very,
very, very, very specialized,where we forgot the rest of the
body, to where we're now movingback out to.
(19:18):
But, but the moving back outhas become much more specified
for individuals, because, youknow, you'll hear, you know,
gosh, salt is doesn't work forme, or I don't get enough salt.
Or caffeine we shouldn't haveit.
And I know that caffeine doeslimit the blood flow to the
brain, but there are some peoplewho metabolize caffeine very
(19:40):
quickly, so the consequences ofcaffeine has a much lesser
effect on them, while somebodydoes not metabolize caffeine
quickly, then they're going tohave further, like bigger
consequences, and so it's.
It's just knowing what, whatour genetics are, what our
bodies do and how weindividually respond.
And I love the SPECT imagingbecause it really does give us a
(20:03):
well.
First of all, it gives us apicture, because I, I, I had a
patient that I was treating.
This has been many, many yearsago and they had a very
significant issue and there wasnothing in the world that could
convince them that what wasbeing seen by their family, by
their friends, by me, by othertreaters.
(20:24):
They couldn't convince themthat it was there until they got
the SPECT image and they saw itloud and clear, and that was
the first time that they couldacknowledge that, yes, this is
an issue.
The behaviors have proven it.
Your family has seen it, all ofthe people in your life has
(20:45):
seen it, your community sees it,and now they saw it in, I would
say, in black and white, butthe spec images are, they're in
full color.
They saw it in full color and itwas a.
It was a very, very powerfulexperience for them.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
That's amazing, yeah, so before I went to work for
Amen Clinics when I was writingmy book, yeah, I want to get
into this.
Well, okay, but in my book.
So I was scanned at AmenClinics before I ever went to
work for Amen Clinics and Idecided at the last minute.
This wasn't something that wasintentional, that was going to
be a part of my book, but Idecided at the last minute
(21:19):
before I was publishing it.
I'm like I got to put my scansin here, so I have my scans in
the book and so you can see myoriginal scans.
Since then I've been scannedtwo more times, but with the
original scans you can see mythalamus lit up and with
thalamus that could be normal orthat could be depression.
(21:41):
Okay, and so for me, that madesense, because you know, I
definitely have experienceddepression off and on over the
years, and when I becamepost-menopausal, that's when the
depression really took on awhole new life.
Yeah, so, and you werementioning earlier about
caffeine and how it can impactpeople differently.
(22:03):
Well, for me, after I became, Ihad surgical menopause.
So after surgical menopause, Icould no longer eat gluten.
I could eat gluten up untilthen, but after that I could no
longer eat it and I thought tomyself what is wrong with me?
Because I loved my pita jungle.
Pita jungle in Phoenix is oneof the best places that we love
(22:23):
to go to.
I can no longer eat my pitajungle because I couldn't eat
the gluten.
Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And that's that gut-brain connection too.
Absolutely it is.
Yeah, absolutely it is.
So tell us what it was that youwrote the book Testosterone the
Next Drug Epidemic.
What inspired this?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So I had my own experience with it and I was
still living in Phoenix.
I went to a quote unquotehormone clinic or, as I call
this place, a pellet palace.
Okay, so I went to the pelletpalace.
And when I went to the pelletpalace and when I went to the
Pallet Palace, I was 43 yearsold and they said, lisa, your
(23:09):
testosterone is 28.
We consider that to be on thelow end.
You're a candidate fortestosterone replacement therapy
.
Well, at the time I wasprobably in the best shape of my
life.
I was doing half marathons, Iwas doing sprint shape of my
life.
I was doing half marathons.
I was doing sprint triathlons,I was doing Olympic triathlons.
I had just moved through mydivorce, so I had gotten through
(23:33):
all of that and I was living agreat life.
And so, for me, I thought, okay, I'm going to do it.
And so the first time I did thefirst pellet insertion I was
okay.
The second pellet insertion Iwas okay.
The second pellet insertion Iwas okay.
It was the third one that I wasnot.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And that's when problems started to arise.
And they say pellets to be onpellets, it's going to be three
to six months.
Typically, what they weresaying in the very beginning was
six months.
Then all of a sudden itshortened to three months.
But the problem with pellets isthat you cannot control right
(24:11):
the dosing.
You can't control how yourbody's going to metabolize them.
And so for me, what happened isI started transitioning.
They got my level so high that,uh, my total testosterone level
that we know of that was tested, that we saw in black and white
was 467.
(24:32):
For a healthy female you shouldnot be over 70.
That's total testosterone.
Now my free testosterone was35.7.
Now my free testosterone was35.7.
In Dr Amen's book the BrainWarrior's Way, he talks about
(24:53):
optimal free testosterone formen.
That's 24.
I was 35.7.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I was going crazy.
So were you experiencing likenot psychiatric but like anxiety
, and what were the symptoms?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Tons of anxiety, tons of rage, intensity.
I was incredibly intense and Ifelt like I was falling apart
and to the point where one ofthe doctors she, one of my
doctors, not the one whoprescribed pellets, yeah, Not
the pellet palace Um, this wasan OBGYN who I went to see her
(25:31):
and she looks at me and she goesare you okay?
And of course I knew I wasn'tjust from presentation.
Um, she saw my test results thatshe had done Not that the and I
looked at her and I said whyare you asking me?
Because it was the way sheasked me.
And she said I'm concerned.
And I said about what?
(25:52):
And she said that's when shetold me your testosterone is 467
and you're free, she goes mybiggest concern is your free
testosterone because it's 35.7.
That is the free testosterone,is it's 35.7.
That is the free testosteroneis what creates the sexual
characteristics.
Okay, so that's what can take awoman to a man.
So here I was transitioning,not because I wanted to, not
(26:18):
intentionally, yeah, yeah butbecause I was being overdosed.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
So the interesting thing to me about this is, first
of all, is the whole design ofpellets, and when you're testing
something to see how the bodyreacts to it, the whole pellet
design is a real commitment tothis, is the accurate dosing,
and this is all of that.
And look, if people have founda dosing that works for them,
(26:47):
it's like you, it's like youstarted out.
This is not a you know, a whatam I trying to say?
A lynching session on pelletsor on, you know, testosterone,
estrogen, any hormonereplacement, because if it's
needed, then it can be veryhelpful, like you were saying,
like opiates, if they're neededin the appropriate space.
(27:10):
It's helpful If you're comingoff of a surgery, like shoulder
surgery, if you need the, theopiates to help you sort out
pain.
But the idea is I remember I hadshoulder surgery about a year
ago and I just remember on thefifth day after surgery, I just
decided I was finished with theopiates and I'm like I don't
(27:34):
care how bad it hurts, I'm done.
And the fascinating thing wasis when I stopped, I was able to
find the mentalization of wherethe pain was.
I was able to deal with itthrough my own mindfulness
practice.
And to your point, though, thatit's needed when it's needed,
and we have to be aware whenit's overdone, because when it's
(27:56):
overdone it can be justdamaging.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It can cause death.
And in fact, there's one storyin my book and it was a woman
that found me online andprobably back in 2014.
And she said my husband, whowas in his 60s, was on
testosterone and I told him hewas acting like a 20-year-old
(28:24):
and that he needed to go get ittested.
And he wouldn't go get ittested and he went out to the
backyard and oh, my God.
And she said I had two autopsiesdone, one where his estrogen to
testosterone ratio was 75 to 1.
(28:45):
And then the second one was 45to 1.
Doping is 8 to 1.
And so what a lot of peopledon't understand is that when
you go down this hormonal path,you are changing your entire
endocrine system.
Okay, and so when you have toomuch testosterone in your body,
it can convert to estrogen.
(29:06):
And so for men, if it convertsto estrogen, that's a whole
nother ballgame.
For women, if it converts toestrogen, which had happened to
me to the point where thephysicians my estrogen level
after surgical menopause, myestrogen level after surgical
menopause, no ovaries, myestrogen level was 500.
That's not normal, okay, ahealthy woman is 100 and that's
(29:29):
if she's on estrogen replacement.
Mine was 500.
To the point where the doctorsthey thought I had a pituitary
tumor because of what washappening with my estrogen and
my testosterone levels.
It was that bad.
And so my doctor looked at meand she goes you have to go see
an endocrinologist.
And I looked at her and I wasjust like I can't, I can't go to
(29:50):
another doctor, like what Ican't.
And she goes no, you have to.
And so I did.
And thank God I did and I tookthree years of all my
testosterone induced lifemedical records with me to the
syndromologist.
And he looks at me and he goeswhy did they put you on
testosterone?
He goes you should have neverbeen put on testosterone.
(30:12):
Why did they put you on this?
Why did they put you on that?
Why did I mean?
And he just kept going on andon.
He goes we're going to get youall situated and we did, okay,
but it took two and a half yearsfor my body to go back to
homeostasis, right.
So that was my last pelletinsertion was September of 2012.
By February of 2015, my bodybecame where it should be Okay,
(30:42):
but where it should be wasreally postmenopausal.
So that's when a host of othersymptoms came into play.
But I was.
I had so much trauma aroundwhat I had experienced I
wouldn't.
I wouldn't go down the path ofentertaining anything to put
into my body until 2018.
But I will tell you, becomingpostmenopausal boom, that first
(31:05):
week, I gained five poundswithout doing anything.
The second week and I remembertelling my old sales manager.
I looked at her and I said I'mobserving myself right now and
she goes what?
And I said I'm observing what'sgoing on with my body right now
, and it is completely changing.
I just gained five pounds forno reason and I gained 40 pounds
(31:25):
within six months, but again, Iwas still afraid.
So it wasn't until I moved backto Dallas and then, in 2018, a
doctor said I can't let youleave my office without going on
diabetes medication, becausethat's one of the issues with
women when it comes to menopauseis blood sugar.
(31:45):
My blood sugar was so out ofcontrol, not even doing anything
differently, yeah.
And so I said, okay, I'm okaywith that.
And so I went on metformin, andso I gradually I mean, this is,
of course, 2018 to where I amtoday, in 2024.
This has been gradual.
So people think, just because Iwrote the book Testosterone the
(32:09):
Next Drug Epidemic, that I'manti-everything, and I'm not.
All I'm doing is sharing thefacts.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Water is a great thing.
We cannot live without it, butyou can.
You can overdo water and it'llkill you?
Yes, you can.
You know sugar.
Sure, it's an enjoyable thing,but you can overdo sugar and you
can send yourself into adiabetic coma.
You know, exercise is a goodthing, but you can overdo your
(32:37):
exercise and come up with astress fracture and it's like
it's finding the balance of whatis good and what is good for
you.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
And today I feel like I have the best balance that
I've ever had, ever have.
I love that In my career, in myhealth, in my brain health, just
in everything that I'm doing inmy life and one of my friends
last week in Phoenix because shegoes, you look amazing I popped
(33:12):
into Phoenix for 24 hours andshe didn't realize that I'm now
on estrogen and I'm onprogesterone, but I'm not on
testosterone and I don't need tobe on testosterone, I don't
need to go there, you know andso, but I'm okay with being on
estrogen and I'm okay with beingon progesterone, and what
progesterone has done to mysleep is amazing.
(33:34):
I sleep like a baby.
I take it at night before I goto sleep and I sleep like a baby
.
And that's one of the biggestchallenges that women have in
menopause is they lose theirsleep, and you were talking
earlier about how importantsleep is.
That's right, and sleep canimpact your mood.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
You know, the thing that I don't think people
realize about sleep is is thatsleep is a natural, the process
of sleep, and deep sleep is theprocess it allows your brain to
clean itself.
That's when the brain showers.
You know, we have a lymphaticsystem from the neck down, but
we have what has been called theglymphatic system in our brain.
(34:17):
Is that when we get into deepsleep, our glial cells shrink,
our cerebral spinal fluid comesaround our brain.
Is that when we get into deepsleep, our glial cells shrink,
our cerebral spinal fluid comesaround our brain and washes off
that beta amyloid plaque, thetau proteins, all those things
that we don't want in there.
It cleans off all the odors,we'll call it, and it's
restorative.
(34:38):
Right, it's, it's.
We were designed to be aself-cleaning machine, so to
speak, and sleep allows for that.
It does, it does.
And if you are not getting that, it's like, what do we need to
do to bring that on board?
And so that's really, that'sreally neat that you walk
through that and I would imagineyou're now with a physician who
(35:00):
is really monitoring levels,not allowing those levels to get
out of control.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yes, in fact she and her husband.
He's a psychiatrist, she's anendocrinologist, and they wrote
on the back of my book and theyhave a practice in Grapevine in
Fort Worth.
But I met Dr Khawaja, who's apsychiatrist, when he opened up
MD True Care and I was workingat Sante, and so he would do a
(35:26):
lot of events for me and CEUs.
Well, he is a sleep guru and sohe also does sleep medicine in
his psychiatry practice.
Anyway, so after I got to knowhim, I went to his wife because
she was an endocrinologist andso then, as I was finishing up
my book, they read my bookbefore it ever came out and they
(35:48):
wrote on the back of my book.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
So, yeah, I love that Such a sweet endorsement.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, and they're an amazing, not only amazing human
beings, but they're incrediblephysicians.
So, yeah, and I would trustthem, you know, like I trust our
Amen Clinic doctors and like Itrust you guys here, you know,
so yeah, Well, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I think that I had a person, just in particular that
I'm thinking of, that I workedwith, who went to a pellet
palace and unfortunately, thisperson got to the point where
their testosterone was so out ofcontrol and they were in their
late 60s, early 70s and, for thefirst time in their life,
(36:31):
became suicidal, and that's howthey ended up in in my office
and it was such a you know, itwas like riding a bull, because
everything was always up anddown and there was so much that
was not stable.
And I'm not saying they weren'tstable, but so much inside of
them that was influenced, thatwas, I call it, detoxed from all
(36:53):
of that endocrine disruption.
They came back to homeostasisand now it's been.
I don't want to go back there.
I don't want to go back there.
(37:13):
And it's like they have foundthat place of homeostasis and
it's like you said, it'straumatic, it is Andasis and
it's like.
It's like you said, it'straumatic, it is, and it's that
it's the place.
Again, it's not saying thatthese things are bad.
So if, if, if you're listeningand you're, you're on pellets
and they're working for you,that's fantastic.
It's when it's it's.
(37:35):
It's like drinking too muchwater it disrupts your whole
system.
It's like drinking too muchalcohol it disrupts your whole
system.
It's like drinking too muchalcohol.
It disrupts your whole life.
It's like taking too much, toomany opioids.
When you don't, we are not inpain.
It will disrupt your life.
It's like you said with thebenzos like if you're on a
benzodiazepine because you haveanxiety, then take it as
(37:55):
prescribed, if you're on aAdderall and it is more than
what your body needs.
That's what we're talking about.
It's like finding your balance.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, and Dr Amen just did a show with Dr Phil and
they talked about the Adderallepidemic.
Boy, is it?
Because there is an Adderallepidemic and for the wrong brain
, adderall can cause hugeproblems For the right brain and
the right brain being somebodythat actually does have ADD, and
(38:28):
the right type of ADD?
Okay, because Dr Amen talksabout seven types of ADD and the
seven types of ADD, one of them, adderall, is going to backfire
on and that's the ring of fire,and with the ring of fire,
that's a brain that's lit up.
You want to calm that braindown, so you don't want to
stimulate that brain, and that'swhere it can create psychosis,
(38:52):
it can create a host of otherissues.
So you never know, and that'swhere you know.
I think having a brain scanned,that can give you a lot of
benefits when it comes to actualmedications as well.
And so taking a brain scan andgenetic testing, which is what
we do to find out whichpsychotropic medications are
(39:12):
going to work better for you, um, is to me one of the best ways
that you can go about that.
Like I had gene site testing tofind out what antidepressant
would be best for me and, what'sfascinating, all of the ones
that you think about.
Zoloft, prozac, welbutrin areall in the red for me.
(39:37):
Those are all the ones thatprescribed on a regular Lexapro
Right, the only one that my bodymetabolized well is Persique
Interesting.
Yeah, Now I'm no longer on anantidepressant but because of
that test, when I did go on thatantidepressant, I went on that
versus the others.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Right.
And that's what's sointeresting, because for some
people those are greatmedications, but for yourself
it's like I would say it's likea placebo, but placebo has an
effect.
It's like you're taking anon-effective pill so you're
wasting money, wasting time init, feeling like gosh, why am I
(40:17):
not having an outcome?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, as you know, this year was kind of a rough
year for our family, with theloss of my brother, and I made a
decision to eliminate Prostiquethis year.
Now making that decision, I wasalready tapering off before
Mike died and then when Mikedied, I called Dr Kwaj and I
(40:39):
said, can you up it?
And so we went back up.
But then I started tapering offUm, and then I went off of it,
Um, and I had all of thosewithdrawal symptoms you know I
had my lips were numb, I had thebrain zaps, you know I I got a
little moody, all of the thingsthat you experience.
But then there was one doctorthat wanted to put me on Lexapro
(41:02):
and not Dr Kowatch, and I said,okay, I'll try it, I'll just
try it.
And it made me catatonic, and Iknew that.
So I only did it for three daysbecause I knew it was going to
make me catatonic, because Iknew what the gene site testing
showed and Lexapro is in the redfor me.
(41:24):
And so I finally said, listen,I can't take this.
I said I can't do my job.
You know I can't it.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
It completely made me just go like this and I said,
yeah, I can't do this, yeah yeah, you know there are some people
who get that anhedonia of theantidepressants and it's like
you lose everything.
You lose the depression, youlose joy, you lose everything
and it's almost like you're in a, like you're in a hyperbaric
(41:54):
chamber without the benefits andit's not.
It just doesn't work well.
The theme that I'm hearing hereis that when something or
someone from the outside says toyou I can make your life better
.
The thing that I want toencourage all of us to consider
(42:20):
is do we feel like thatsomething better is necessary
Because the enemy of good isbetter, and do we genuinely,
genuinely need something to makeus better?
And if we're going for better,what's the goal and do we have
(42:42):
our sights set on something thatis something that we genuinely
want?
Because you described thebeginning of your, of your road
with this experience as I wasliving a great life.
I had come through some reallypainful things.
I was athletically in my prime,everything was in a good space,
(43:04):
but I was told I could havesomething better, and do we
consider what that better trulyis, or do we hear better?
This isn't a criticism of you,it's I do this when I hear I can
have something better, it'slike I want better.
But do we define what better is, and is the outcome what we
(43:26):
thought it was going to be?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
I love what you just said, yeah, and those words are
going to stick with me becauseI'm considering some things
right now that I'm really umtorn about some things right now
that I'm really torn about, andone of them is peptides.
Okay, so peptides are all therage these days?
(43:49):
They are, and there are twopeptides that I've been, I mean
I've almost hit.
You know, purchase, purchase,purchase.
But I haven't done it.
Well, did do it once and youknow what.
It came back saying wrong zipcode, wrong zip code, and then I
, my credit card got denied.
I mean, my credit card didn'tget, but my I know what you're
(44:10):
saying.
the system didn't take it yeahand to me I thought that was a
gift from god right yeah, thatwas a roadblock.
And um, the two one was AOD noBPC-157 for my back, because I
do have some back pain, I don'twant to give up my hot yoga and
I don't want to give up myhiking and then the other is AOD
(44:32):
and AOD-96-something-something.
Yeah, so, but I you know thatwas a block and that block I've
paid attention to enough aboutit, but the fda had pulled it.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
The uh, bpc 157, which is a general uh, it's body
p.
I don't remember the ps, butit's something about um it's.
It's about bringing back the,the, the health and the wellness
to your joints and things likethat.
It's um.
But regardless, I think at theend of the day, you know, we did
a study here on depression andone of the things we had such a
(45:27):
beautiful outcome what we foundwas it was teaching people how
to find their desired outcome.
And then I'm, I'm, I'm very,very much overgeneralizing and
summarizing, but for a purposeis that it was teaching people
how to find their desiredoutcome.
And what was fascinating is,when we hear that term, desired
(45:49):
outcome, we think, well, that'swhat I want from the world.
It's like, well, I can'tcontrol that.
What we taught them was how,what do I want out of me?
How do I decide?
How do I decide what my desiredoutcome for me is?
And that's where we took peoplewho had depression for more than
a decade, some for multipledecades, and had never had any
(46:12):
kind of remission.
They, we moved them intoremission and we just a spoiler
alert we just did a two yearfollow up to two and a half year
follow up and, of those whoparticipated, their depression
is still in remission becausethey're continuing to use their
skills of finding what it isthat they we need to go is
(46:40):
making sure one we know who weare, we know what it is we need,
we know what it is that we'reafter with whatever it is that
we're about to put in our body,whether it's food, whether it's
supplement, whether it'smedication, whatever it is.
Is that what is my goal here?
What do I want, and is doingthis going to get me to where
(47:06):
I'm trying to go?
Speaker 2 (47:09):
So true.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So where can people pick up this book?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's on Amazon.
So if you just type intestosterone the next drug
epidemic it'll pop up Awesomeand there's.
I don't control what they do,so there's all sorts of specials
.
Sometimes the audible is free,sometimes they do Kindle
promotions, sometimes thepaperback, so yeah, Right,
because Amazon owns audible.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yes, so it's on audible.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
It's on audible Kindle and in paperback
Fantastic.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
This is so cool.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story, for that bravery to
step out there and talk aboutsome of the most painful times
in your life and to just lay apathway for people that maybe
they can consider.
Do I know me?
Do I know what it is that Ineed and where is it that I'm
(47:57):
trying to go?
And they have time and space toconsider that, based on where
you've been.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Thank you for having me.
It was so good to be here.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and in thisepisode I sit down with Lisa
Marie Shaughnessy to explore herinspiring road from a career in
radio to the world of mentalhealth.
We discuss her book calledTestosterone the Next Drug
Epidemic, and we delve intotopics which include the role of
(00:25):
technology in advancedpsychiatric evaluations, the
impacts hormone therapy had onher life and others like her,
and various medicalinterventions and the importance
of finding the balance in yourtreatment.
This enlightening conversationoffers valuable insights and
actionable takeaways for anyoneseeking to enhance their mental
(00:49):
wellness.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Welcome.
Thank you, lisa Marie.
Thank you for being here today.
Yeah, I am excited to dive into this topic.
I'm excited to talk in to thistopic.
I'm excited to talk to youabout your book, testosterone
(01:13):
the Next Drug Epidemic.
I'm excited to just hear fromyou.
I'm trying to think of how longyou and I have known one
another and it feels like a longtime, about eight years ago.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
So it was when I was at Sante Center for Healing.
That's when we first met.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Okay, yeah, all right , that's right, and you used to
be in radio.
I did for 25 years.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
And so what did tell us what you did in radio?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Okay, so I want to back up.
I'm going to share with you whyI got into radio and how
grateful I am to be here on yourcouch today.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Okay, because when I was 17 years old, my dad called
a family meeting.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
And in this family meeting he said I bought this
company and it was a companythat the Disney's owned.
So my dad was in broadcastingas well.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
So it was a company that the Disney's owned, which
is what led us to Dallas from LA.
So, anyway, I stood up in thatfamily meeting and I said I am
not going to work for you, I amnot going to work in radio, I am
not going to do this, I want tobe a social worker.
And he looks at me and he saysdoll, doll, doll, you can't be a
(02:23):
social worker.
He goes, you need to go intoradio because you can make money
.
Okay, so fast forward two yearsafter I graduated from high.
Well, I graduated from highschool.
And then, a year after Igraduated from high school, I
reached out to the generalmanager of KEGL, a Dallas radio
station.
(02:43):
Norman Rao was his name, and Icalled Norman and I said Norman,
I want to be your receptionist.
And he goes, lisa, he goes, Ihave a receptionist.
I said no, norman, you don'tunderstand.
I will be the best receptionistyou've ever hired.
Like that's how naive I was,you know so, but I knew I was a
good receptionist.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
How did you know this ?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Because during high school I worked at a hair salon
as the receptionist andeverybody loved me, so I knew I
would be a good receptionist,right.
So anyway, he goes, well, comeon in.
And, um, he goes, we'll talk,but I have, I already have
(03:22):
someone in that role.
I'm like okay, so I go in and Imeet with Norman, and this was
in the Xerox center in LasColinas, that's where the radio
station was, and I lived in LasColinas.
Okay, so that's where I went tohigh school and all of that.
So anyway, I go in and we'remeeting and uh, he says, well,
my receptionist resigned today.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
What.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Now, you didn't write that resignation letter for you
, did you?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I'm kidding, I know.
And I said they did.
And he goes, yes, and I said,well, I'm going to be the best
receptionist that you've everhired.
And so that's how I got intoradio.
I became the receptionist atKEGL.
Within six months I waspromoted to programming and
promotions assistant, allbecause the program director
(04:07):
walked into Norman's office andsaid she is running this radio
station up at the front desk.
I want her back with me.
I had to go into sales, and soI moved from Dallas to Lincoln,
nebraska, to take my first salesjob, and the reason why I did
(04:28):
that was because my dad told methat I had to start in sales in
a small market.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Okay so.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Dallas was too big of a market for you to start in
sales, in his opinion.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
In his opinion Okay, okay, so I moved to Lincoln,
nebraska, but I turned down thejob the first time and I didn't
go until the second time and theand my dad just happened to own
the radio station that I turnedthe job down on.
OK so and I turned it down and Inever told him why I turned the
job down, because I went and Iinterviewed and I came back and
(05:00):
I was like, yeah, I'm not goingup there until several months
later and I was still workingfor the Eagle and he said so,
doll, why'd you turn down thejob?
Because I wasn't going to tellmy dad why I turned down the job
, because he had the wrong manin the position up there.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
You didn't want to work for the gentleman that was
in.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
No, there was no way.
I was going to work for him.
Okay, and how do you tell yourfather that?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
You know, yeah.
And especially, you're all of21 years old.
So who are you Right?
And here's this guy up there.
But there was no way I wasgoing to go to work for that man
.
And so I finally said somethingand I said dad, I said I'm not
going to work for that guy, hegoes so you?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
So you found a way to tell him.
Yeah, I love that, because heasked me Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Okay, so I wasn't going to volunteer.
It wasn't.
I didn't feel that it was myplace.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Who am I to tell him how to run his radio station?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
right, okay, fair enough.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And so I told him and he's like duh, why didn't you
tell me he goes, I'm firing himand he goes and I'm putting Dan
Charleston in to be the generalmanager.
So I went up and re-interviewedand so when I re-interviewed,
that's when I moved up therebecause I could go to work for
(06:15):
Dan, I could trust Dan, I couldrespect Dan, I was the owner's
daughter, so I had a lot goingagainst me.
Anyway, yeah, that makes sense.
Okay, it does it it makes had alot going against me anyway.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Okay, it makes life a lotharder when you're in that
position.
Sure, and I was a remoteowner's daughter, so my dad
wasn't involved in theday-to-day.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
He wasn't a known entity, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, so he wasn't in the day-to-day, sure.
So I went to work there and youknow, I got my feet wet in
sales, so went in sales.
So I worked there for two years, actually three years, and then
I resigned and went to work forthe country station and that's
when my life completelydramatically changed.
And it changed because I cameout of the shadow of my father.
(07:01):
Okay, I had earned a name formyself by going to this other
station and so by going to thecountry station, that's where my
career blossomed and throughthat then I got a job offer to
move to Phoenix, arizona, and goto work for Buck Owens, who was
the premier radio operator inthe country and a country star.
And I worked there for nineyears and you know, that's where
I really kind of became.
(07:21):
Lisa Marie Shaughnessy was inPhoenix.
Because that I came out of theshadow the shadow because it can
be tough to do that, sure, youknow.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, and then I spent 25 years in the industry
and I loved it, but I always hada burning desire to be in
behavioral health ever since Iwas 17 years old.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
What drove that burning desire?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah.
So when our family moved fromLA to Dallas, that was a really
hard time for me.
Okay, I was a freshman in highschool, and so I was a freshman
in high school, starting inDallas, texas, from California.
That already was something.
Talk about a culture shock,100% culture shock.
(08:05):
And my parents' marriage wasfalling apart, okay, at the same
time.
So they separated six monthsafter we moved here, our lives
became chaotic and for me, I wasalways I was the one that would
go and say we have adysfunctional family and
(08:28):
everyone would say, oh, everyonehas a dysfunctional family.
So I always had a passion forit, I had a desire for it.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
So you kind of felt like, in that sense you were the
canary in the coal mine, likeyou were saying something's off
here, correct, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yes, but of course my voice was pushed down, pushed
down.
So I had to find my way, and Ifound my way the hard way, the
good way, the best way, theright way, whatever that way is,
I have had to find my way,gotcha, and so that's why I've
(09:01):
always had a passion for it.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
And plus.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
I'm an avid reader.
I am, as my former husbandcalls me, a professional
workshop participant.
Because I love to go toeverything and I love to delve
deep into that, not only tounderstand in general, but also
to help me grow as a human being.
Understand in general, but alsoto help me grow as a human
(09:28):
being, and I believe it's mybelief that I think, um, at some
point in all of our lives andI'm going to use that all of our
lives we need to see atherapist.
At some point in our lives,whether we're in crisis or
whether we want to get to thenext level in our career.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, I always look at it too is the idea of
self-actualization.
It's like we were not creatednor designed to live in
isolation and there's somethingto us having a sense of
community.
but I don't want to say educatedcommunity, but maybe skilled
(10:06):
community in a certain area youknow, like, if you want to, if
your desire is to be an athlete,you know you're not going to go
hang around the garden club tobecome a better athlete.
You'll become a better gardenerand there's all things great
with the garden club.
But if you're looking to be abetter athlete, being in the
garden club is not going to helpyou in your athletics Right.
(10:27):
And so that self-actualizationis a sense of finding that
psychologically minded communitythat helps you press into new
heights of your psychology 100%,absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And as my mother says , it is will and desire.
When you have will and desire,that meet, and for me, my will
and desire is incongruent, it'scongruent with both, and so
that's where I'm living the lifethat I feel that God wants me
to live.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, I love that.
What a blessing to you and tothe people that you're around,
because when we're living thelife that we were intended for,
then it tends to be a blessingeverywhere.
I always say to people you know, as a parent, when I sit down
with my kids or my family tohave dinner, I don't pick and
choose who gets dinner thatnight.
(11:26):
It's like dinner is for all.
Everybody gets to eat.
Why?
Because I love my family.
Well, if we believe that we areloved in that same way by God
or whatever your faith traditionis, then it spans to all.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
And so that's really neat.
So you went from radio and nowwhere are you now?
Tell our listeners where youare now.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Which I think is so cool.
I know, okay, I have my dreamjob.
Yeah, you do I have my dreamjob I love?
Okay, I have my dream job.
Yeah, you do, I have my dreamjob.
I love my job.
It is everything that God hasprepared me for, and I work for
Amen Clinics and at Amen Clinicswe have 11 clinics across the
country.
I represent the Dallas FortWorth Clinic and Dr Daniel Amen
(12:20):
is our founder, who has written45 books.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I did not realize it was that many.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yes, 45 books.
12 of them are New York Timesbestsellers, that's fantastic.
So, and I feel very honored andprivileged to be able to work
for Amen Clinics, and what we dois we take the psychiatric
evaluation to the next level.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That's a good way to say it.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah.
So it's the next level, becausewhen you as therapist or let's
just say the general public areworking with families or
individuals and they're stuck,you know they're not moving
forward.
Something intuitively you knowis going on in their brain that
(13:06):
maybe needs to be looked at sothat they can move forward in
their life.
That's where we come in withSPECT imaging, and SPECT is
single photon emission computedtomography, and what that is is
nuclear medicine.
So we're going in and we'relooking at the blood flow in the
brain.
We're going to be able to seewhere the blood flow is getting,
(13:27):
or where the brain is gettingadequate blood flow, where it's
not getting enough blood flowand where it's getting too much
blood flow.
So we can actually see dementia20 years in advance.
A lot of times that scarespeople, but a lot of times
people want to know.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I think it's invigorating, because if it were
a death sentence, so to speak,if you couldn't alter it, if it
was just a fact and it was anoncoming train and there was no
changing the trajectory of thattrain, I would say I don't want
to know.
But the fact of the matter is,and we know, many things can be
(14:09):
done to change the trajectory ofthat outcome.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Many things, yeah, I mean okay.
So for dementia and Alzheimer's, for example, which we see, we
see that quite a bit.
One of the things that peoplecan do if they have dementia and
Alzheimer's is go to hyperbaricoxygen therapy.
That will change their brain by10%, which is going to help
(14:37):
their brain operate better whilethey are in this state, and
that's just one little thing.
They're changing their diet.
That can be a game changer forpeople.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
You know, one of the things that has really struck me
is the fact that because fulldisclosure my mom unfortunately
had Alzheimer's and has sincepassed a number of years ago,
and so I have been on a quest tounderstand it, to make sure
that it doesn't get passed down.
(15:12):
She had a million wonderfultraits and those I want to be
passed down, but this one Idon't.
And one of the things that I'veseen is sleep.
Is that you, like you're sayinglike we can look at a brain
with a spec image and no, 20years in advance, we can also
look at someone's sleep hygieneand see that 20 years in advance
(15:32):
, like their sleep is a problem,and cleaning up the sleep
hygiene can be a really positiveoutcome.
And so it's these really simplethings that we can lean into,
that we can potentially changethe trajectory of where things
are going in our life.
And I think that knowledge canbe power if knowledge is applied
(15:56):
appropriately and it's notfearful and it's not shaming,
but we look at it and say, ok,what's next?
And it's not shaming, but welook at it and say, okay, what's
next.
So Amen Clinic has been such anamazing thing for you.
It's been such an amazing thingfor many people.
I mean, I'm trying to think of,you would know this way better
(16:16):
than me, but I know that he'sdone more than how many scans
has he?
How many scans has the AmenClinic done?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So we have a database of over 250,000 scans.
We are the largest SPECTimaging database in the world.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, nobody comes close to us.
And here's a fascinating thing.
So Dr Amen learned about SPECTimaging from a conference APA
conference.
He was there.
He went to this session.
They were talking about SPECTimaging and that's when he
became interested in it.
He has been criticized also forwhat he does, okay, and so he's
(16:57):
had a lot of critics.
But he learned it at the APAand so what he's done is he's
taken that, he took the ball andhe ran with it Right.
You know, and that's whatpioneers do, that's right, you
know, they take the ball andthey run with it and he, he has
done amazing work and he haschanged people's lives every
(17:18):
single day.
And I should say he, we, and Isay we okay, because, yes, he
pioneered Amen Clinics, but wehave 60 board certified
psychiatrists on staff with usacross the country.
We also have, I would say,probably eight to 10 functional
medicine doctors across thecountry.
(17:39):
We have nurse practitionersacross the country.
We have a few therapists not alot of therapists, but we have a
few therapists because what welike to do is we like to partner
with therapists like you guys.
Okay, because we know ourpatients.
We're a destination, right,people are coming to us for
three days and then they're.
(18:01):
They may be leaving, some maystay and they may work with the
doctors remotely.
But if somebody needs to doEMDR, for example, and they live
in Fort Worth, well, they'regoing to come here.
Or, let's say, we recommendneurofeedback as part of the
process in helping heal thebrain, well, they're going to
(18:22):
come see Jeff, you know.
So they're going to come herefor neurofeedback.
That's why it's reallyimportant for us to be able to
partner with providers all overthe country, all over the world,
for that matter, because wehave, there's a Brazilian family
that comes to us.
Every year.
They come, they get scans.
They basically shut down theAtlanta clinic because that's
(18:42):
how busy we are with this family.
So, um, and we have familiesthat come from London, spain, um
, I have one that I've justemailed this morning that I'm
working with in South Africa.
So it's from all over the world.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, well, it's, it's a game changer, right, and
it's it's finding what.
I think that what we're movingto in medicine we've gone from
where a person was a generalistto be a person being a very,
very, very, very specialized,where we forgot the rest of the
body, to where we're now movingback out to.
(19:18):
But, but the moving back outhas become much more specified
for individuals, because, youknow, you'll hear, you know,
gosh, salt is doesn't work forme, or I don't get enough salt.
Or caffeine we shouldn't haveit.
And I know that caffeine doeslimit the blood flow to the
brain, but there are some peoplewho metabolize caffeine very
(19:40):
quickly, so the consequences ofcaffeine has a much lesser
effect on them, while somebodydoes not metabolize caffeine
quickly, then they're going tohave further, like bigger
consequences, and so it's.
It's just knowing what, whatour genetics are, what our
bodies do and how weindividually respond.
And I love the SPECT imagingbecause it really does give us a
(20:03):
well.
First of all, it gives us apicture, because I, I, I had a
patient that I was treating.
This has been many, many yearsago and they had a very
significant issue and there wasnothing in the world that could
convince them that what wasbeing seen by their family, by
their friends, by me, by othertreaters.
(20:24):
They couldn't convince themthat it was there until they got
the SPECT image and they saw itloud and clear, and that was
the first time that they couldacknowledge that, yes, this is
an issue.
The behaviors have proven it.
Your family has seen it, all ofthe people in your life has
(20:45):
seen it, your community sees it,and now they saw it in, I would
say, in black and white, butthe spec images are, they're in
full color.
They saw it in full color and itwas a.
It was a very, very powerfulexperience for them.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
That's amazing, yeah, so before I went to work for
Amen Clinics when I was writingmy book, yeah, I want to get
into this.
Well, okay, but in my book.
So I was scanned at AmenClinics before I ever went to
work for Amen Clinics and Idecided at the last minute.
This wasn't something that wasintentional, that was going to
be a part of my book, but Idecided at the last minute
(21:19):
before I was publishing it.
I'm like I got to put my scansin here, so I have my scans in
the book and so you can see myoriginal scans.
Since then I've been scannedtwo more times, but with the
original scans you can see mythalamus lit up and with
thalamus that could be normal orthat could be depression.
(21:41):
Okay, and so for me, that madesense, because you know, I
definitely have experienceddepression off and on over the
years, and when I becamepost-menopausal, that's when the
depression really took on awhole new life.
Yeah, so, and you werementioning earlier about
caffeine and how it can impactpeople differently.
(22:03):
Well, for me, after I became, Ihad surgical menopause.
So after surgical menopause, Icould no longer eat gluten.
I could eat gluten up untilthen, but after that I could no
longer eat it and I thought tomyself what is wrong with me?
Because I loved my pita jungle.
Pita jungle in Phoenix is oneof the best places that we love
(22:23):
to go to.
I can no longer eat my pitajungle because I couldn't eat
the gluten.
Interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And that's that gut-brain connection too.
Absolutely it is.
Yeah, absolutely it is.
So tell us what it was that youwrote the book Testosterone the
Next Drug Epidemic.
What inspired this?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So I had my own experience with it and I was
still living in Phoenix.
I went to a quote unquotehormone clinic or, as I call
this place, a pellet palace.
Okay, so I went to the pelletpalace.
And when I went to the pelletpalace and when I went to the
Pallet Palace, I was 43 yearsold and they said, lisa, your
(23:09):
testosterone is 28.
We consider that to be on thelow end.
You're a candidate fortestosterone replacement therapy
.
Well, at the time I wasprobably in the best shape of my
life.
I was doing half marathons, Iwas doing sprint shape of my
life.
I was doing half marathons.
I was doing sprint triathlons,I was doing Olympic triathlons.
I had just moved through mydivorce, so I had gotten through
(23:33):
all of that and I was living agreat life.
And so, for me, I thought, okay, I'm going to do it.
And so the first time I did thefirst pellet insertion I was
okay.
The second pellet insertion Iwas okay.
The second pellet insertion Iwas okay.
It was the third one that I wasnot.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And that's when problems started to arise.
And they say pellets to be onpellets, it's going to be three
to six months.
Typically, what they weresaying in the very beginning was
six months.
Then all of a sudden itshortened to three months.
But the problem with pellets isthat you cannot control right
(24:11):
the dosing.
You can't control how yourbody's going to metabolize them.
And so for me, what happened isI started transitioning.
They got my level so high that,uh, my total testosterone level
that we know of that was tested, that we saw in black and white
was 467.
(24:32):
For a healthy female you shouldnot be over 70.
That's total testosterone.
Now my free testosterone was35.7.
Now my free testosterone was35.7.
In Dr Amen's book the BrainWarrior's Way, he talks about
(24:53):
optimal free testosterone formen.
That's 24.
I was 35.7.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I was going crazy.
So were you experiencing likenot psychiatric but like anxiety
, and what were the symptoms?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Tons of anxiety, tons of rage, intensity.
I was incredibly intense and Ifelt like I was falling apart
and to the point where one ofthe doctors she, one of my
doctors, not the one whoprescribed pellets, yeah, Not
the pellet palace Um, this wasan OBGYN who I went to see her
(25:31):
and she looks at me and she goesare you okay?
And of course I knew I wasn'tjust from presentation.
Um, she saw my test results thatshe had done Not that the and I
looked at her and I said whyare you asking me?
Because it was the way sheasked me.
And she said I'm concerned.
And I said about what?
(25:52):
And she said that's when shetold me your testosterone is 467
and you're free, she goes mybiggest concern is your free
testosterone because it's 35.7.
That is the free testosterone,is it's 35.7.
That is the free testosteroneis what creates the sexual
characteristics.
Okay, so that's what can take awoman to a man.
So here I was transitioning,not because I wanted to, not
(26:18):
intentionally, yeah, yeah butbecause I was being overdosed.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
So the interesting thing to me about this is, first
of all, is the whole design ofpellets, and when you're testing
something to see how the bodyreacts to it, the whole pellet
design is a real commitment tothis, is the accurate dosing,
and this is all of that.
And look, if people have founda dosing that works for them,
(26:47):
it's like you, it's like youstarted out.
This is not a you know, a whatam I trying to say?
A lynching session on pelletsor on, you know, testosterone,
estrogen, any hormonereplacement, because if it's
needed, then it can be veryhelpful, like you were saying,
like opiates, if they're neededin the appropriate space.
(27:10):
It's helpful If you're comingoff of a surgery, like shoulder
surgery, if you need the, theopiates to help you sort out
pain.
But the idea is I remember I hadshoulder surgery about a year
ago and I just remember on thefifth day after surgery, I just
decided I was finished with theopiates and I'm like I don't
(27:34):
care how bad it hurts, I'm done.
And the fascinating thing wasis when I stopped, I was able to
find the mentalization of wherethe pain was.
I was able to deal with itthrough my own mindfulness
practice.
And to your point, though, thatit's needed when it's needed,
and we have to be aware whenit's overdone, because when it's
(27:56):
overdone it can be justdamaging.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It can cause death.
And in fact, there's one storyin my book and it was a woman
that found me online andprobably back in 2014.
And she said my husband, whowas in his 60s, was on
testosterone and I told him hewas acting like a 20-year-old
(28:24):
and that he needed to go get ittested.
And he wouldn't go get ittested and he went out to the
backyard and oh, my God.
And she said I had two autopsiesdone, one where his estrogen to
testosterone ratio was 75 to 1.
(28:45):
And then the second one was 45to 1.
Doping is 8 to 1.
And so what a lot of peopledon't understand is that when
you go down this hormonal path,you are changing your entire
endocrine system.
Okay, and so when you have toomuch testosterone in your body,
it can convert to estrogen.
(29:06):
And so for men, if it convertsto estrogen, that's a whole
nother ballgame.
For women, if it converts toestrogen, which had happened to
me to the point where thephysicians my estrogen level
after surgical menopause, myestrogen level after surgical
menopause, no ovaries, myestrogen level was 500.
That's not normal, okay, ahealthy woman is 100 and that's
(29:29):
if she's on estrogen replacement.
Mine was 500.
To the point where the doctorsthey thought I had a pituitary
tumor because of what washappening with my estrogen and
my testosterone levels.
It was that bad.
And so my doctor looked at meand she goes you have to go see
an endocrinologist.
And I looked at her and I wasjust like I can't, I can't go to
(29:50):
another doctor, like what Ican't.
And she goes no, you have to.
And so I did.
And thank God I did and I tookthree years of all my
testosterone induced lifemedical records with me to the
syndromologist.
And he looks at me and he goeswhy did they put you on
testosterone?
He goes you should have neverbeen put on testosterone.
(30:12):
Why did they put you on this?
Why did they put you on that?
Why did I mean?
And he just kept going on andon.
He goes we're going to get youall situated and we did, okay,
but it took two and a half yearsfor my body to go back to
homeostasis, right.
So that was my last pelletinsertion was September of 2012.
By February of 2015, my bodybecame where it should be Okay,
(30:42):
but where it should be wasreally postmenopausal.
So that's when a host of othersymptoms came into play.
But I was.
I had so much trauma aroundwhat I had experienced I
wouldn't.
I wouldn't go down the path ofentertaining anything to put
into my body until 2018.
But I will tell you, becomingpostmenopausal boom, that first
(31:05):
week, I gained five poundswithout doing anything.
The second week and I remembertelling my old sales manager.
I looked at her and I said I'mobserving myself right now and
she goes what?
And I said I'm observing what'sgoing on with my body right now
, and it is completely changing.
I just gained five pounds forno reason and I gained 40 pounds
(31:25):
within six months, but again, Iwas still afraid.
So it wasn't until I moved backto Dallas and then, in 2018, a
doctor said I can't let youleave my office without going on
diabetes medication, becausethat's one of the issues with
women when it comes to menopauseis blood sugar.
(31:45):
My blood sugar was so out ofcontrol, not even doing anything
differently, yeah.
And so I said, okay, I'm okaywith that.
And so I went on metformin, andso I gradually I mean, this is,
of course, 2018 to where I amtoday, in 2024.
This has been gradual.
So people think, just because Iwrote the book Testosterone the
(32:09):
Next Drug Epidemic, that I'manti-everything, and I'm not.
All I'm doing is sharing thefacts.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Water is a great thing.
We cannot live without it, butyou can.
You can overdo water and it'llkill you?
Yes, you can.
You know sugar.
Sure, it's an enjoyable thing,but you can overdo sugar and you
can send yourself into adiabetic coma.
You know, exercise is a goodthing, but you can overdo your
(32:37):
exercise and come up with astress fracture and it's like
it's finding the balance of whatis good and what is good for
you.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
And today I feel like I have the best balance that
I've ever had, ever have.
I love that In my career, in myhealth, in my brain health, just
in everything that I'm doing inmy life and one of my friends
last week in Phoenix because shegoes, you look amazing I popped
(33:12):
into Phoenix for 24 hours andshe didn't realize that I'm now
on estrogen and I'm onprogesterone, but I'm not on
testosterone and I don't need tobe on testosterone, I don't
need to go there, you know andso, but I'm okay with being on
estrogen and I'm okay with beingon progesterone, and what
progesterone has done to mysleep is amazing.
(33:34):
I sleep like a baby.
I take it at night before I goto sleep and I sleep like a baby
.
And that's one of the biggestchallenges that women have in
menopause is they lose theirsleep, and you were talking
earlier about how importantsleep is.
That's right, and sleep canimpact your mood.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
You know, the thing that I don't think people
realize about sleep is is thatsleep is a natural, the process
of sleep, and deep sleep is theprocess it allows your brain to
clean itself.
That's when the brain showers.
You know, we have a lymphaticsystem from the neck down, but
we have what has been called theglymphatic system in our brain.
(34:17):
Is that when we get into deepsleep, our glial cells shrink,
our cerebral spinal fluid comesaround our brain.
Is that when we get into deepsleep, our glial cells shrink,
our cerebral spinal fluid comesaround our brain and washes off
that beta amyloid plaque, thetau proteins, all those things
that we don't want in there.
It cleans off all the odors,we'll call it, and it's
restorative.
(34:38):
Right, it's, it's.
We were designed to be aself-cleaning machine, so to
speak, and sleep allows for that.
It does, it does.
And if you are not getting that, it's like, what do we need to
do to bring that on board?
And so that's really, that'sreally neat that you walk
through that and I would imagineyou're now with a physician who
(35:00):
is really monitoring levels,not allowing those levels to get
out of control.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yes, in fact she and her husband.
He's a psychiatrist, she's anendocrinologist, and they wrote
on the back of my book and theyhave a practice in Grapevine in
Fort Worth.
But I met Dr Khawaja, who's apsychiatrist, when he opened up
MD True Care and I was workingat Sante, and so he would do a
(35:26):
lot of events for me and CEUs.
Well, he is a sleep guru and sohe also does sleep medicine in
his psychiatry practice.
Anyway, so after I got to knowhim, I went to his wife because
she was an endocrinologist andso then, as I was finishing up
my book, they read my bookbefore it ever came out and they
(35:48):
wrote on the back of my book.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
So, yeah, I love that Such a sweet endorsement.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, and they're an amazing, not only amazing human
beings, but they're incrediblephysicians.
So, yeah, and I would trustthem, you know, like I trust our
Amen Clinic doctors and like Itrust you guys here, you know,
so yeah, Well, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I think that I had a person, just in particular that
I'm thinking of, that I workedwith, who went to a pellet
palace and unfortunately, thisperson got to the point where
their testosterone was so out ofcontrol and they were in their
late 60s, early 70s and, for thefirst time in their life,
(36:31):
became suicidal, and that's howthey ended up in in my office
and it was such a you know, itwas like riding a bull, because
everything was always up anddown and there was so much that
was not stable.
And I'm not saying they weren'tstable, but so much inside of
them that was influenced, thatwas, I call it, detoxed from all
(36:53):
of that endocrine disruption.
They came back to homeostasisand now it's been.
I don't want to go back there.
I don't want to go back there.
(37:13):
And it's like they have foundthat place of homeostasis and
it's like you said, it'straumatic, it is Andasis and
it's like.
It's like you said, it'straumatic, it is, and it's that
it's the place.
Again, it's not saying thatthese things are bad.
So if, if, if you're listeningand you're, you're on pellets
and they're working for you,that's fantastic.
It's when it's it's.
(37:35):
It's like drinking too muchwater it disrupts your whole
system.
It's like drinking too muchalcohol it disrupts your whole
system.
It's like drinking too muchalcohol.
It disrupts your whole life.
It's like taking too much, toomany opioids.
When you don't, we are not inpain.
It will disrupt your life.
It's like you said with thebenzos like if you're on a
benzodiazepine because you haveanxiety, then take it as
(37:55):
prescribed, if you're on aAdderall and it is more than
what your body needs.
That's what we're talking about.
It's like finding your balance.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, and Dr Amen just did a show with Dr Phil and
they talked about the Adderallepidemic.
Boy, is it?
Because there is an Adderallepidemic and for the wrong brain
, adderall can cause hugeproblems For the right brain and
the right brain being somebodythat actually does have ADD, and
(38:28):
the right type of ADD?
Okay, because Dr Amen talksabout seven types of ADD and the
seven types of ADD, one of them, adderall, is going to backfire
on and that's the ring of fire,and with the ring of fire,
that's a brain that's lit up.
You want to calm that braindown, so you don't want to
stimulate that brain, and that'swhere it can create psychosis,
(38:52):
it can create a host of otherissues.
So you never know, and that'swhere you know.
I think having a brain scanned,that can give you a lot of
benefits when it comes to actualmedications as well.
And so taking a brain scan andgenetic testing, which is what
we do to find out whichpsychotropic medications are
(39:12):
going to work better for you, um, is to me one of the best ways
that you can go about that.
Like I had gene site testing tofind out what antidepressant
would be best for me and, what'sfascinating, all of the ones
that you think about.
Zoloft, prozac, welbutrin areall in the red for me.
(39:37):
Those are all the ones thatprescribed on a regular Lexapro
Right, the only one that my bodymetabolized well is Persique
Interesting.
Yeah, Now I'm no longer on anantidepressant but because of
that test, when I did go on thatantidepressant, I went on that
versus the others.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Right.
And that's what's sointeresting, because for some
people those are greatmedications, but for yourself
it's like I would say it's likea placebo, but placebo has an
effect.
It's like you're taking anon-effective pill so you're
wasting money, wasting time init, feeling like gosh, why am I
(40:17):
not having an outcome?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, as you know, this year was kind of a rough
year for our family, with theloss of my brother, and I made a
decision to eliminate Prostiquethis year.
Now making that decision, I wasalready tapering off before
Mike died and then when Mikedied, I called Dr Kwaj and I
(40:39):
said, can you up it?
And so we went back up.
But then I started tapering offUm, and then I went off of it,
Um, and I had all of thosewithdrawal symptoms you know I
had my lips were numb, I had thebrain zaps, you know I I got a
little moody, all of the thingsthat you experience.
But then there was one doctorthat wanted to put me on Lexapro
(41:02):
and not Dr Kowatch, and I said,okay, I'll try it, I'll just
try it.
And it made me catatonic, and Iknew that.
So I only did it for three daysbecause I knew it was going to
make me catatonic, because Iknew what the gene site testing
showed and Lexapro is in the redfor me.
(41:24):
And so I finally said, listen,I can't take this.
I said I can't do my job.
You know I can't it.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
It completely made me just go like this and I said,
yeah, I can't do this, yeah yeah, you know there are some people
who get that anhedonia of theantidepressants and it's like
you lose everything.
You lose the depression, youlose joy, you lose everything
and it's almost like you're in a, like you're in a hyperbaric
(41:54):
chamber without the benefits andit's not.
It just doesn't work well.
The theme that I'm hearing hereis that when something or
someone from the outside says toyou I can make your life better
.
The thing that I want toencourage all of us to consider
(42:20):
is do we feel like thatsomething better is necessary
Because the enemy of good isbetter, and do we genuinely,
genuinely need something to makeus better?
And if we're going for better,what's the goal and do we have
(42:42):
our sights set on something thatis something that we genuinely
want?
Because you described thebeginning of your, of your road
with this experience as I wasliving a great life.
I had come through some reallypainful things.
I was athletically in my prime,everything was in a good space,
(43:04):
but I was told I could havesomething better, and do we
consider what that better trulyis, or do we hear better?
This isn't a criticism of you,it's I do this when I hear I can
have something better, it'slike I want better.
But do we define what better is, and is the outcome what we
(43:26):
thought it was going to be?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
I love what you just said, yeah, and those words are
going to stick with me becauseI'm considering some things
right now that I'm really umtorn about some things right now
that I'm really torn about, andone of them is peptides.
Okay, so peptides are all therage these days?
(43:49):
They are, and there are twopeptides that I've been, I mean
I've almost hit.
You know, purchase, purchase,purchase.
But I haven't done it.
Well, did do it once and youknow what.
It came back saying wrong zipcode, wrong zip code, and then I
, my credit card got denied.
I mean, my credit card didn'tget, but my I know what you're
(44:10):
saying.
the system didn't take it yeahand to me I thought that was a
gift from god right yeah, thatwas a roadblock.
And um, the two one was AOD noBPC-157 for my back, because I
do have some back pain, I don'twant to give up my hot yoga and
I don't want to give up myhiking and then the other is AOD
(44:32):
and AOD-96-something-something.
Yeah, so, but I you know thatwas a block and that block I've
paid attention to enough aboutit, but the fda had pulled it.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
The uh, bpc 157, which is a general uh, it's body
p.
I don't remember the ps, butit's something about um it's.
It's about bringing back the,the, the health and the wellness
to your joints and things likethat.
It's um.
But regardless, I think at theend of the day, you know, we did
a study here on depression andone of the things we had such a
(45:27):
beautiful outcome what we foundwas it was teaching people how
to find their desired outcome.
And then I'm, I'm, I'm very,very much overgeneralizing and
summarizing, but for a purposeis that it was teaching people
how to find their desiredoutcome.
And what was fascinating is,when we hear that term, desired
(45:49):
outcome, we think, well, that'swhat I want from the world.
It's like, well, I can'tcontrol that.
What we taught them was how,what do I want out of me?
How do I decide?
How do I decide what my desiredoutcome for me is?
And that's where we took peoplewho had depression for more than
a decade, some for multipledecades, and had never had any
(46:12):
kind of remission.
They, we moved them intoremission and we just a spoiler
alert we just did a two yearfollow up to two and a half year
follow up and, of those whoparticipated, their depression
is still in remission becausethey're continuing to use their
skills of finding what it isthat they we need to go is
(46:40):
making sure one we know who weare, we know what it is we need,
we know what it is that we'reafter with whatever it is that
we're about to put in our body,whether it's food, whether it's
supplement, whether it'smedication, whatever it is.
Is that what is my goal here?
What do I want, and is doingthis going to get me to where
(47:06):
I'm trying to go?
Speaker 2 (47:09):
So true.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
So where can people pick up this book?
Speaker 2 (47:12):
It's on Amazon.
So if you just type intestosterone the next drug
epidemic it'll pop up Awesomeand there's.
I don't control what they do,so there's all sorts of specials
.
Sometimes the audible is free,sometimes they do Kindle
promotions, sometimes thepaperback, so yeah, Right,
because Amazon owns audible.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yes, so it's on audible.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
It's on audible Kindle and in paperback
Fantastic.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
This is so cool.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story, for that bravery to
step out there and talk aboutsome of the most painful times
in your life and to just lay apathway for people that maybe
they can consider.
Do I know me?
Do I know what it is that Ineed and where is it that I'm
(47:57):
trying to go?
And they have time and space toconsider that, based on where
you've been.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Thank you for having me.
It was so good to be here.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah.
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