October 1, 2024 • 51 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to transform mental barriers into stepping stones for success? Join us for an enlightening journey with Dr. Tracy Carrington, a renowned performance specialist, as she unravels the nuances of performance psychology. Dr. Carrington shares her compelling journey from a collegiate athlete grappling with mental challenges to discovering the power of performance training. She emphasizes the critical distinctions between clinical therapy and performance coaching, highlighting the ethical boundaries she maintains while working hand-in-hand with clinical professionals to provide holistic care for her clients.
Get inspired by the incredible story of an athlete who went from being a walk-on in pole vaulting to achieving national fame. We explore the unique differences between athletic programs in Tennessee and Colorado, and the evolution of women's pole vaulting. This segment underscores the indispensable role of support systems and technology in the success of athletes worldwide. Through the lens of integrity, preparation, and effective problem-solving, we discuss how these elements come together to ensure seamless support for athletes, even across international boundaries.
Finally, immerse yourself in the emotionally charged journey of an athlete's eight-year quest to qualify for the Olympics. We highlight the sacrifices, emotional highs and lows, and the unwavering support of a dedicated team. Dr. Carrington also shares universal performance strategies that transcend sports, offering valuable techniques for mental resilience applicable in various aspects of life. From the importance of a robust support network to the intersection of physical and mental training, this episode is packed with insights that will empower you to achieve excellence in any field.
Learn More about Mind Game Performance and Dr. Carrington: https://tracy-carrington.squarespace.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
The Thank you Welcome , dr Tracy Carrington.
Oh thanks, it's good to haveyou.
It's good to have you, it'sgood to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Thanks for having me, yeah of course, of course.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well, I wanted you to be here, I wanted to have this
time, because I think you are aremarkable human being and I
think you do some really coolthings, and I would love our
listeners to know more about whoyou are and what you do.
And I would love our listenersto know more about who you are
and what you do, and so can youdescribe for our listeners what
(01:30):
it is that you do?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh wow, this is like my elevator speech that I didn't
practice right.
No, okay, so I am a performancespecialist, I'm not a clinical
therapist, and I think that'swhere our relationship you know
we've developed it over theyears has been because I work
specifically in the performancearena, right, whether that's
(01:54):
with athletes or businessprofessionals or performing
artists, helping them work onthe mental skills of performance
, work on the mental skills ofperformance, um, but when you're
doing that, often things comeup, clinical things come up that
go outside of what, um, what Ispecialize in.
And so, um, coming back to you,cause I also think you're
(02:18):
remarkable, um, at what you do,and why I'm actually sitting
here is because, um, I canremember seeing your work before
I actually ever met you, causeI had yes, cause I had yes,
because I had clients and thatwere working with both of us.
They were working with you froma clinical perspective, working
with me from performanceperspective, and I remember just
being like, wait, who are youworking with?
(02:40):
Because I always I like thethings that the conversations
that you were having with themand they really overlapped well
with the work that I was alsotrying to do.
And so finally I think it camedown to I was like I got to meet
this guy, right, and then, yeah, that's that's how we met.
But I got into this fieldspecifically because I was an
(03:02):
athlete at University ofTennessee, this field
specifically because I was anathlete at University of
Tennessee and I came in and theyhad pretty high expectations of
what they thought I wassupposed to be doing and that
for sure I really underperformedand it wasn't a physical thing
but it was really mental, and sothey made me go work with the
performance specialist who is ontheir staff and and is the head
(03:25):
of their kind of mentaltraining, and I mean I guess you
could say it made a pretty umit made a lasting impression um,
because for so long, you know,if, if I performed well, I
wasn't necessarily aware of whatwere the things I was doing.
That was helping me perform well, and so having someone who
could teach me those thingshelped me become aware of where
(03:46):
I was derailing myself, um, andthe things when I was performing
at my best, and so that kind ofsnowballed into all right, I
think this is what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I love that and I will say you you started in the
beginning there and said I'm nota clinical person.
One of the things that I sorespect so respect about you,
and you've never wavered on thisis that you are so clear in
your own mind.
You're clear about where youdraw your lines as to what is
(04:16):
clinical and what is performance, and some of those lines I
might say well, I think youmight be able to like it makes
sense for you to step here, butthat's not your line and you
don't.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And I just think that is so.
That's really remarkable.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Well, I think I mean that's important part of any
good work.
And you and I have had longconversations about just from an
ethical perspective.
You know, to me it's badbusiness, right, if I'm trying
to do work with someone thatgoes outside of.
You know what my training is,what my expertise is.
You know I'm doing harm thereand specifically because our
(04:52):
boundaries are really differentin the work that we do, you know
, I travel with teams, I go intotheir practices, and so you
know, if I was going into thatenvironment and I'm working on
really deep clinical things, nowI'm, I'm becoming part of the
distraction in that, and sothat's where it becomes so
important that that I have goodrelationships with you know,
(05:14):
clinical practices likerestoration, because I can, I
can keep those somewhat separate.
So I know, ok, this person isgetting the clinical work they
they're done, that they need todo, but then now I can step in
and help them in those moments.
Okay, this is the time where weneed to set that aside so that
we can stick the landing, youknow, so that we can be ready to
(05:37):
react to the gun, um, so thatwe can get our mind right to go
compete and perform Right, um,but if they're not doing that
work, I don't work with them.
That's kind of that's anotherone of my standards.
Like, if something comes up inour session and I recognize that
they need some of thatadditional work, that's not mine
.
And whether that's they need togo meet with a dietician, they
(05:58):
need to go work, you know, meetwith an orthopedic surgeon,
because maybe they're kind of,you know, ignoring a really bad
injury, um, or they need aclinical therapist, um, if they,
if they are unwilling to dothat, then to me continuing to
work with them is just it's badbusiness.
Um I'm not doing I'm not doing agood service for them.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Right and that that makes sense because, you know,
sometimes I think about um.
You know, when you sign up fora trainer, let's say like a
coach, and they say we need, weneed three months.
I need a three month minimumbecause if you're going to see
progress, you're, it's going totake you X amount of time and so
I need to make sure that we'remaking that commitment to each
(06:39):
other.
It's like you're doing the samething.
If you're going to see a truemental mindset shift, then I
need to know that you'recommitted to get all the
ancillary from you I wouldimagine from your perspective
the ancillary things out of ourway to make sure we make
progress here.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah, and I'm sure this is same for you in your
practice, where you havecheck-ins with clients to kind
of I will make light of itusually to say, well, this is
usually where we're either goingto move forward or you're going
to fire me, because this iskind of our point of okay, we're
going to start making stepshere and making some changes,
(07:17):
and if they're unwilling tocontinue to work with someone
that's not putting in the workand the effort, then again
that's someone that's notputting in the work and the
effort, then again that's thatdoesn't really benefit anyone,
so I usually won't continueworking in those situations.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, when, what was your?
What was your college sport?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So I pole vaulted in college, yeah, yeah, but I
actually, funny enough, Istarted out as a distance runner
at university of Colorado.
Um, yeah, so I was a walk-ondistance runner for university
of Colorado and at the time Idid not know how good they were.
I mean, it's kind of comicalwhen you think about it, because
I came in and they had just wonthe national championship for
(07:56):
cross country and I mean, thisis before social media.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Okay, no judgment here people are.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
This is before right this is before the internet,
okay, you know it was big.
We're dating ourselves I know,but it was before it was easily
accessed the way you know, rightnow people can just google and
look things up.
Um, and so it wasn't.
You know, my sister ran foruniversity of texas and so I was
very familiar with kind of thesouthwest conference at that
(08:22):
time.
But I wasn't, I wasn't with.
You know, colorado, apart fromwhat a cool school and I love
skiing and um, and I knowthey're yeah, and I know they're
good.
So, yeah, I want to, I want togo do something different, I
want to go beyond, and so Iwalked onto this team, a team
that you know is full of youknow women who are on the like
(08:44):
in the hall of fame, and youknow Olympians and are just
unbelievable.
And so I was barely getting totravel to to events I mean like
scrapping by, like maybeoccasionally I get they'd take
me along, and and that's when Isaw women pole vaulting and um,
I'd always wanted to pole vault,but at the time I'm going to
date myself again.
(09:04):
Women weren't allowed to polevaulting.
And, um, I'd always wanted topole vault, but at the time I'm
gonna date myself again.
Women weren't allowed to polevault, right, oh, really yeah.
So when I was in high school,um, I really wanted to pull ball
because I had a gymnasticsbackground and I could.
Just the mechanics of it justmade sense and I saw it and I
had a good upper body strength.
I could do a bunch of pull-ups,more pull-ups than most of the
guys could do.
And so, I thought like I coulddo that, like I know how to.
(09:27):
I, I the mechanics, just madesense in my head.
Um, and so I went to the coachand said hey, I want to pull
vaults.
And the coach said you know,women can't pull vaults.
And at which point I clearlywas like hey, like my dad said,
women can do anything they wantto do and my coach was like no,
no, like really you're notallowed to pole vault.
And so it wasn't until I was incollege and I would go to these
(09:50):
meets, I'd start seeing thesewomen pole vaulting and they
weren't jumping very high, likeyou know.
To give a reference, I thinkyou know, at the olympics, the,
was you know high 16s, were youknow what?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
was scoring.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
These girls were jumping nine feet Right and
that's like.
I mean, there are girls in highschool.
You know you go to high schoolmeet.
You're going to see girls at 11, 12 and really good ones at 13
or 14 feet now.
So nine feet was like such alow level of athletic
performance but they're scoringpoints for the team.
So in my mind I thought maybeif I do that, Colorado doesn't
(10:26):
have any pole vaulters, then Icould, you know, I could
actually get to travel and hangout with my friends and do that.
And so I went home that summerand started vaulting.
Sorry, I have to pause you.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Here's what I love is you're already like what a
problem solver Like you'rethinking, like how you approach
this is from such a problemsolving.
I love that, and that's one ofthe things that I really love
about your work is that it trulyis like okay, let's get in here
.
We're not going to be youweren't, you weren't going to be
held down by the.
You can't do something.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, let's figure this out.
That's I love that.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
No, no, no, I love it , that's good.
Um, yeah, I know I'm ramblingon that, on that, no, this is
brilliant, yeah.
So, um, yeah, I saw these womenpull vaulting.
I went back, I, my dad, found agreat coach in Fort, you know,
in the Abilene I think is.
Yeah, it was in Abilene, um,and there's another coach in
Fort Worth.
I did a lot of work with who'skind of the guru here and
(11:23):
suddenly I went from kind ofbeing this walk-on to being
ranked nationally as a vaulter.
Like my jumps were up there,good enough to go to nationals,
and so suddenly schools werelooking at me from a recruiting
standpoint.
Tennessee was a really strongpole vault school and kind of
field event at the time, whereasColorado was more focused on
(11:43):
the distance running and so thecoach just wasn't interested in
showing that, but Tennessee was.
So the expectation when I cameinto Tennessee was you're
supposed to go to nationals,you're supposed to score at
nationals, and I didn't do thatthat first year, and so then
that was kind of where, yeah,where it snowballed into full
bolting, I guess.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And so to translate to today, so Tennessee would be
sort of like the NIL money,whereas whereas Boulder would
not have been.
Yeah, no, no, and I there,there wasn't any of that then.
No, that's brand new.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
No, but they, they definitely were, uh, using um at
the time because it was sobecame so popular that women
were pole vaulting.
So Tennessee was was definitelyexcited to have, you know, good
vaulters in any of the programswere, because that was where
the media attention was at thetime.
It was like oh women arevaulting, so I came in at a
great time.
They treated me really well.
(12:39):
It was it's an incredibleathletic program, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, and it set you on a really cool trajectory
where you're not only, not onlydid it change your life, but
that moment in time is changing,like the world, and I'm not
being I'm not being hyperbolicby saying that, because, if I'm,
if I'm not mistaken, you workwith folks all over the world.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I do and it's it's been a strange transition.
I guess that I didn't reallyeven conceive was possible.
Yeah, that my practice could goto that level.
So I think we have a lot of theinternet type, whether it's
Zoom or FaceTime, whatsapp.
I mean those things have justopened up.
(13:23):
At the time, I think, when Istarted, skype was huge in
opening up the world and becauseI don't have some of the same
clinical boundaries thatclinical practitioners have, I
could go and proceed that.
But, that being said, I stillhad to make sure in each of
those places I had good clinicalreferences so that if I'm in
(13:46):
another country and somethingcomes up, I have people that I
can, I can get those.
Um athletes too.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
What?
Uh, that's gotta be a reallydifficult thing to sort out,
because how do you know, like,first of all, how do you make
contact with them?
And then how do you know thatthey're?
I hate to say it this way, buthow do you know that they're?
I'll say it this way how do youknow, like, first of all, how
do you make contact with them,and then how do you know that
they're I hate to say it thisway, but how do you know that
they're?
I'll say it this way how do youknow if they're going to
provide a service that iseffective for your, for your
athletes?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
For what I want.
So I don't accept the job untilI know I have that in place.
Like that's just, that's kindof okay people.
Now you see why I love this.
No, I mean, that's seriouslylike that's part of my criteria
is making sure that thoseresources are in place so that.
And so usually you know thetimes, like going to new zealand
(14:35):
, I made sure I had peoplecontacts there in place to know,
like, if things come up, I haveresources there to get them to
where they need to go.
Um, you know paris same thing,so I, um, you know Paris same
thing, so I had people readilyavailable.
And then the same thing with umthe, just the options of Skype
and zoom and FaceTime.
That has helped tremendously.
(14:56):
But, as you know, sometimes youneed people on the ground, yeah
, to help get people um wherethey need to go.
So I haven't been to a placeyet where I've had that.
That dilemma but that's alwaysin my the forefront of my head
when I accept a job is makingsure those pieces are in place
before, um, yeah, jumping in.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Sure, and that's that's.
There's so much integrityinvolved in that from my
perspective.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I appreciate that we'll think, gosh, I want to see
you do well, and sometimesthere may be the temptation to
get ahead of ourselves and yeah,yeah, and I think, starting out
, I mean there were, it wasn'tperfect and I think, like most
people can say, I made mistakesthat, um, you know, and I was
(15:59):
fortunate that they weren't lifealtering.
Uh, mistakes, but little onesto go like man, you know there's
a better way to do this and Ineed to figure out a better way
to do this.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
The problem solving.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Well, I love, I love a good, I love a good challenge.
You know, focus mindset rightLike what's the challenge.
How do we figure this out?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, so what's been one of the most intriguing, like
amazing, things that you'veexperienced in this role?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I would say like a really cool journey that I got
to kind of be on with with aparticular athlete and I can't
get too specific.
Um was an athlete who you knowfor for those of you who don't
know about the Olympics, it'snot just a one year thing.
Right, they are on this fouryear campaign and for some of
(16:49):
them it's even an eight yearcampaign because they were on it
for the last one and theydidn't make it, or they did and
they didn't perform that waythey wanted to.
So it can be this like reallylong, and just think about that
for a moment, like when's thelast time?
You know, a lot of people havehad a goal they've gone after
for eight years and sacrificedeverything, right, they've
(17:10):
sacrificed time with theirfamily, they've sacrificed time
with their friends.
You know the toll that theirbodies had, the discipline that
they have to have to like justgo in and consistently pursuing
that goal.
So, um, yeah, to be on a truejourney with this one client who
was like right on the edge ofeven getting getting there, um,
(17:31):
and and it kind of was lookinglike it wasn't going to happen,
um, but then you know some, somepieces and some just like final
, like clutch performances thatjust kind of helped in the
overall ranking that ended upallowing this individual to
actually make it.
And so you know.
Then there's this excitement oflike and having to shift from
(17:54):
the goal being like okay, I justwant to make it to the Olympics
too.
Okay, now we want to perform atthe Olympics, right, right.
And so that had to be.
We had to pivot really quickbecause didn't even find out
that this particular individualwas going to be making it until
pretty close to go time, right.
And so now we're having to,while we're celebrating the
(18:16):
accomplishment of like, we madeit, but now we're having to
quickly, right.
So for eight years it's been agoal to just make it, to get
there to get there and now wehave to.
okay, we don't want to just getthere Now, we want to perform.
And so then to have thatathlete be able to go and, um,
you know, one of the things thatwas said was it's it was the
first time I was able to standin my nerves and and and be okay
(18:40):
with them.
I can't say I was comfortable,but like I could stand in them,
like I could stay there in in mynerves and and be okay.
And so athlete actuallyperformed really well, made it
to the finals, um, and it washuge.
And so to just like get towitness that and know, like know
(19:01):
all the things that they gothrough, you know, even just
like little things, so justtrying to get tickets so a
significant other can actuallymake it and see the competition
right, because the tickets areall sold out, and so you know
little stressors like that thatum would probably undo a lot of
people and they're having to,you you know, manage that and
(19:24):
you know the food that they'reeating and the schedules of the
buses and sleep hygiene and, um,just the roller coaster of not
making it going.
To make it not making it going.
I mean we went, you know goingthrough this whole grieving this
grieving process of like.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I'm not going to make it.
I might make it.
I'm not going to make it Imight.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I mean it.
It was.
That was really, um yeah, thatwas remarkable, and I'm not
trying to take away from theother athletes that I also got
to support, but that one justwas one that really um yeah,
stood out for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Well, sure, because it's you're.
You're part of the team andyou're part of this athlete's
team, and I'm sure that everyathlete at that level has a team
of people.
I'm certain of it.
Yeah, that they have that, thatit takes to help them achieve
at the level that they'reachieving, right.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And I met from other athletes that I'm on their team.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
No, no, I get it, yeah, okay, I totally get it.
Yeah, because it's no, I get it, I totally get it Because each
one had a different story.
Absolutely.
And yet there's certain aspectsof being on certain teams with
certain individuals, where it'slike the rise and the fall, the
excitement.
(20:40):
It doesn't take away anythingfrom anybody else, it's just
that that left such animpression.
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
But I think for me too, like I just um it's not
even just about like the highlevel Cause a lot, of, a lot of
times it's like oh, you went tothe Olympics but, like you know,
last night I was at a JV umvolleyball game and you know, I
just done a presentation withthis team.
So now I'm kind of seeing, like, are they actually implementing
(21:07):
the things we talked about?
And I'm seeing them kind ofstarting out and they're on this
role and it's looking good.
And then I start seeing them.
You know, some mistakes happenand it's spiraling and it's like
all right, this is going to beinteresting, let's kind of see.
And so to see, you know, 14, 15year olds struggling and trying
(21:27):
to work through that like Ialso get great satisfaction out
of moments like that to see themlike fighting back.
You know, teaching people likehow to have courage.
you know, because that's a bigone we talk about is, you know
courage and I always quoteprincess diaries like it's not
the absence of fear you know,she says this in there, but I
(21:48):
think it's Maya Angelou's quote,um, but I always quote it from
princess Sorry, sorry, okay,that's not a perfect but um yeah
, that, it's not that absence offear, but rather you know that
there's something more importantthan that fear.
So teaching them to have toface their fear, um well, it's
(22:09):
not courage if there's no fear.
Absolutely.
There's no bravery if there'sno fear, it's just I'm walking
through something that's in myexperience.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I guess I would say normal, right, but when we
experience fear, like you'resaying, the courage is I have to
grab something extra courage totake with me to go through this
, because otherwise I wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that I was listening toum, one of my really good
friends does another podcast andI was listening to conversation
between and I know both of themreally well and, um, one of the
guys works for the diamondbacksand he was saying he was
describing mental performanceand kind of like how training
mental performance?
(22:49):
And he said, um, it's not amental performance is not, um,
positive thinking.
Right, it's mental performance,is positive action, kind of
regardless of what you'rethinking Right.
And so, um, I think that's abig part of the practice of in
the way that I like to approachit too is like, what are the
actions you're going to take?
(23:10):
Right, cause we can't controlwhat happened, but we can
control how we respond to that,and I like that Cause I think
you and I have a very similarapproach.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Spot on with that.
I was just thinking that thestudy that we finished a couple
of years ago with depressionthat's one of the things that I
talk about this often because itwas such a I feel like it was
such a monumental outcome isthat problem solving?
That's why I love that you'realways problem solving.
(23:39):
We talk about that a lot in ourconversations, about our work,
but problem solving helpedpeople who were struggling with
depression, who had chronicdepression, 15 years of
intractable depression.
That teaching them how toproblem solve, not for other
things, not for the environmentper se, but for themselves.
(24:00):
What do I want out of me?
It's just like what you'retalking about with the, with
your friend on their podcasttalking about.
It's really about what?
How do I want to behave?
In other words, in your world.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
You can control exactly that.
You have control over right theactions you take.
You are in control of youractions right.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So in your world it's how do I want to perform.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
In my world it's how do I want to behave, but we're
saying the exact same thing,yeah, which is why I think we I
think we compliment each otherwell in that, because it's
speaking that same language.
Right, no, go ahead.
I was just saying, like oftenwhen I know I have a client
who's working with a clinicaltherapist, I usually want to
find out like well, what didthey say, or what was their
(24:43):
feedback.
And I like to say that tofinding out what does a coach
say, because I'm trying tofigure out how to work with you
know what they have, versus likecrashing against it, like I
don't want.
I don't want to go like wait,this one said this and this one
said this, so, and sometimesit's even interpreting like,
okay, well, this might be howthey were.
You know meaning for this to beused, cause I'm sure, as you
(25:06):
know, sometimes you think you'vehad a really clear message with
the client and then later youcome back in and you're like,
wow, okay, that's different thanwhat I thought you got from
that.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I thought I said these things, that got
interpreted Sure, and and that's.
You know, we talk aboutproprioception.
I mean, I know, in your worldwith athletes you talk about
proprioception.
It's how does my body movethrough gravity, how do I
navigate gravity with my ownbody?
I think is maybe a gross way ofsaying what proprioception is.
And in psychology we look at aswe look at it as what is my
(25:42):
perceptual understanding, andthat's that metaphysical
proprioception I call it is that?
how do I ingest the world andthrough what filter do I see it?
And you know, you watchsomebody run and you think, oh
gosh, they don't haveproprioception, they don't.
They don't see like that, theylook like Phoebe, you know, and
(26:05):
they may be, you know, flailingabout.
And we sometimes see that inthe perceptual understanding,
psychologically speaking, andthat's how we gauge where
somebody is perceptually is, byhow wait, how did you hear that?
How did that work out?
And so that again,instinctually on your part, I
(26:27):
love that.
That's what how you walk thisthrough with people is.
You're working withproprioception, but also that
perceptual understanding.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And that's where I think too.
That's, you know, where I thinkours crosses, but does it
compliments, compliments, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
The way that I really like to work with athletes, and
I'm sure you do too, is there'sthat top down approach, but
then there's also the bottom up,and so the top down being, you
know, the mental skills to helpmanage performance, but then the
bottom up being how do I managemy body to manage my mind?
Right, right, because you know,sometimes we're the feigning
being.
How do I manage my body tomanage my mind?
Right, right, because you know,sometimes we're the feigning
(27:07):
goat.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
And every.
If you haven't seen videos of afeigning goat, then you need to
like look it up, stop and.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Google that Stop and.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Google it Cause it's funny, but it's actually, it's
actually kind of sad.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, cause they, they have such a heightened
state of um, a stress response,that they pass out.
And part of why cause, in mymind, I was having this
conversation with a client whoworks with a lot of horses and
things like that, and so we werehaving this conversation like
hey, don't be the fainting goat.
And she's like yeah, it'sreally sad about those fainting
goats because they breed them sothat if, like coyotes attack
(27:44):
the, the herd, then that onewill pass out.
The coyote will get thatinstead of injuring eight or 10
of them.
Um, so they really are thesacrificial goat, um in in that
herd to kind of protect the restof the thing.
But the response being, you know, in performance we sometimes
get those the white knuckles,that heightened state of stress.
(28:06):
And so a big part is helping,you know, my clients and
athletes understand what thoseresponses are and then how they
can manage that.
And the cool part is they'reathletes.
So they really buy into that,like hey, you're an athlete,
like here's a new technique ofhow to manage your body, whether
that's, you know, learning howto manage their eyesight Right.
(28:28):
So, because they'll get into areally heightened state of
stress, eyes will be reallysharp.
So even just like learning howto relax their vision, as you
know, a a way as a relaxationtechnique, and that has been, um
, it's fun, right.
I think it's fun working themfrom kind of both sides.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Absolutely, because some people, like you said, some
people are going to be moregeared for the, for the top down
, the logic to the practical,and then other people are going
to be more geared towards thebottom up, which is the
experience to them, the logic.
Yeah, I think that's, I thinkit's great, when you like, if we
think about all these athletesthat you're working with in this
(29:10):
, this high level of performance.
You don't only work withathletes, right, right, you work
with executives who are highlevel, high performers,
absolutely.
So how does that translate?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Um well, do you want me to first share how I got into
that, because I think thatone's that this story always
kind of makes me laugh.
So I was working with a, theson of a business professional,
so to speak and so I'd beendoing work with him and he
(29:41):
started, you know, kind ofasking like hey, do you ever
work with you know kind ofbusiness type clients?
And I was like no, like that'snot really my training, it's not
really what I'm good at.
I don't.
You know, no, I don't reallyknow how I would, I would even
do that.
And he's like I like I thinkyou could do this.
So here I have this guy who'slike he's having to convince me,
like kind of sell me, that heshould be my client.
(30:02):
I'm like okay, like I mean, wecan try this out, let's kind of
see how this goes.
And and from that, as I startedworking with him, that was when
I began to realize a lot of thecrossover between that.
So I don't ever claim to be anexpert in business, but I do
understand people, I dounderstand performance, I do
(30:23):
understand helping get the bestout of performance.
I do, and I think one of thethings I feel like is my purpose
is helping people get the rightpeople that they need.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Right, yes, which is how you approach the athlete, I
need to have, I need, if I needa dietician, if I need a mental
health, a clinical person, if Ineed an orthopedic surgeon.
You started off with that.
It's like you get, you have tohave your team right, but, but
what you're doing, I think, iswhat you're saying, at least is
what I've experienced in workingwith you is is that you also
(30:56):
take that person and say okay,you're the hub you need to get
the people that are going to.
Let's help you.
Find the people that are goingto help you.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, and a lot of that I mean similarly and we've
talked about this is just byasking questions and finding out
kind of what is you know, whatis going on, where are their
struggles?
And then that's usually whereI'm better able to identify like
who, who they need you know andget them in that direction.
And one of the things I'vealways respected about you is
(31:25):
when you don't know something,you'll say yeah.
I don't know and like, hey, letme check on that.
Or let me ask someone else and,um, I think we kind of share
that similar thing, Like I'm I'mnot afraid to say, hey, I don't
know, but let me look into that, let me research that.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Um, it's a research background 've geek out on the
science part of it.
So, yeah, that makes two of usand yeah, I appreciate you
saying that it's.
It's uh to me being like Ialways, I always want to be a
learner.
I always want to learn more andknow more, and you know when
will it be enough.
You know when will you be tothe point where you've learned
enough?
The answer is more.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Right no.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I don't.
I don't ever want to stoplearning, and I feel like you're
the same way and knowing thatwe can never know everything.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
That's wisdom right, right, right and part of the
beauty of not know.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
You're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Well, I'm saying that because there's this, this
children's book that I wouldalways read to my son, and it
was the cookies bite-sized lifelessons.
Did you ever have that?
one in your in your mix, but itwas great because it would have
these you know kind of corevalues.
It'd be like, you know,optimistic, you know, oh, yay, I
still have, you know, half acookie left.
Pessimistic, oh no, I only havehalf a cookie left.
(32:45):
Um, but wisdom was the lastpage of this book and I always
liked it because it was a way toteach you know my son about you
know kind of different, kind ofcore principles.
And in wisdom, it said I used tothink I knew everything there
was to know about baking cookies.
Now I realize I only know abouta chip's worth.
And to me, like when I think ofbeing wise and having wisdom,
(33:08):
is recognizing how little youknow and realizing you know that
you constantly have ways tolearn and grow.
And so if that's what I expectmy clients to do, then I think
you know we have to be doing thesame thing as well and
constantly being, you know,looking at ourselves, figuring
out how can we learn and growand do better.
And and to quote you know, my,my mentor, he would always say
(33:30):
you know green and growing, andif not, you're just dead fruit
on the vine ready to be picked.
And so he was like gotta begreen and growing, green and
growing, and, and I always likedthat.
So it's like anytime.
I myself maybe um stuck in myways where I'm thinking like, oh
well, like I know this um, it'susually where I have to do some
(33:51):
quick self-check and go okay,we got some green and grind to
do here baby yeah, because wedon't want to be picked from the
no no, we're about to getslaughtered and you know, the
thing to me that's so fun aboutthis is that we can call it
wisdom.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I would I, I and I would agree.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
And I wasn't saying we're so wise.
That wasn't what I was meaning.
It just made me think of that.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
But I think to acknowledge that is is
appropriate, yeah, is to saythat we have grown to a point
I've grown to a point in mycareer.
You've grown to a point in yourcareer to where we are wise
enough to say, because wisdom isa spectrum, right, we're not
saying we're the wisest of all,like that we're somehow a God.
No, absolutely not.
But what I think you are saying, and I'm concurring with, is
(34:38):
that we've both grown to a pointto where we're wise enough to
say, I don't know, yeah, and Ithink it takes some humility to
say that Absolutely.
And I think that for me, partof the I don't know that's
exciting is the idea that I getto call up a buddy.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Right, I get to call up Tracy and go oh my gosh,
what's your thought on this?
And we get to have a fun hourlong conversation, right that?
It's like that we get to to toshare with each other what we
know, which may I feel like itmakes both of us better.
And then it's a piece of sayinglike it's, it's a piece of of
(35:16):
connecting, which I think isreally cool.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
And I think that you know it goes back to even kind
of the corporate consulting thatyou're talking about, where I
think sometimes leaders you knowwhether it's a leader of a
practice, whether it's theleader of a you know division,
one team or a professional team,whether it's a CEO.
Sometimes there's this likepressure of like, oh, I'm, I'm
in charge, so I'm supposed toknow, and so, like one of the
(35:42):
first things and my research formy dissertation was on coaches
and job transition.
So how do, like new headcoaches come in and like, create
a program, you know, get theright personnel, build a
foundation, develop trust, youknow all of those aspects.
And so when you know, when youget to that top, one of the big
(36:02):
things that came out from thatresearch was this idea of having
outside people that you couldgo to and talk to.
And you know, I have my ownprivate practice and it's just
me, and so it would be reallyeasy to just be on my own little
island like, okay, I shouldhave all the answers and I.
But I quickly found, found, um,when I acted in that way, I
(36:26):
didn't do very good work my workwasn't as quality, um, and so
for me, like, having like a goodnetwork of people, having you
that I can can tell me like, hey, what do you think about this?
Like, give me, give me, what amI missing here, what am I not
seeing?
Um has helped me, um, be betterat what I do and, like as an
athlete I tell having been aformer athlete when I work with
(36:50):
athletes, I'd say there's areason why we have coaches,
right, because they help us seethings that we can't see in
ourself when we're performing.
And I think the same inprofessional practice, whether
that's you know business or youknow whatever aspect having
other people who can ask yougood questions, right, I, I like
to surround myself with thepeople who ask good questions of
(37:10):
me and challenge me in that wayto think about um, why am I
doing that and what?
Well, what is my, my processand my thought through that?
So that um that helps bring outmy best.
So absolutely.
You're one of you're in mycircle.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Thank you, and as you are in mine, and what you're
talking about is that here weare, green and growing so that
we're not static on the vine.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
If, if I were to say, like cause, you know, the whole
premise of our podcast here isbeyond the couch, yeah, it's.
It's saying, you know, like wewant to always hopefully leave
people with something that theycan do on their own.
The thing that really resonatedwith me is you saying that this
athlete found that place tostand in their nerves.
(37:56):
They didn't love it now, butthey said I found a place that I
could stand in my nerves and becontent, maybe, or okay, with
it.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Okay with it.
Yeah, Okay with it.
I have a colleague who worksfor the USOC and the way he
describes it is he said you know, imagine you show up to this
party and you know you're havingsuch a good time and everyone's
there, and then that one personthat you really didn't want to
see shows up.
How do you respond in thatsituation, Like can you still,
(38:26):
in that space, like be okay withthat person, or do you just
like leave the party completely?
And so, yeah, when this clientsaid that like I was able to
stand in my nerves, that wasjust like it's still, I got
goosebumps.
If you can, see it, you'retelling the whole story, I know
(38:47):
it's uncomfortable, you know,and I think that's that's the
key that a big one.
When we talk to athletes a lotof times you know when they come
in they're wanting to get ridof the nerves and the discomfort
.
And, um, I'm like it's not thatwe're getting rid of the, you
know, the.
I feel like I'm quoting a TVshow on this, but and it was, it
was a sports psychologist on aTV show.
(39:09):
She was telling her client it'snot that you're getting rid of
the the minds, you know, becausehe said, I feel like I'm
walking through a minefield shesaid it's no, you're not getting
rid of the minefield, you'rejust learning how to navigate it
better.
That's right, yeah, and so Ifeel like that, and that's.
You know, I love to use tedlasso or whatever like I will
use all sorts of anything I canto kind of, you know, have a
(39:32):
point resonate with it yeah,make it relatable.
But I liked that analogy ofthinking about, um, when we're
trying to perform mentally, itdoesn't mean that you know, you
don't have those feelings.
You're human, so it's normal tohave fear, it's normal to have
doubt, it's normal to beinsecure.
But how, what do I do so I canactually be in that space and
(39:54):
still do what I want to do andperform?
You know that that that doesn'tcontrol me, right?
I control myself in that space.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Exactly Because that's what we have control over
.
Getting rid of the minds is is,in essence, trying to control.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, yeah.
You're like, I want this greatlittle perfect.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Right, and we can't do that.
That's why we talk aboutmanaging depression, managing
anxiety.
We don't make it go away.
I remember in college, one ofmy college roommates was this he
was a bodybuilder and he wasinto martial arts and I remember
I think we would train togetherand I would say, okay, I really
(40:32):
want you to help me get rid ofmy flinch, like I don't want to
flinch if somebody, like youknow, tries to punch at my head
and he's like dude, you're anidiot.
And he was right.
That was an idiotic thing.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
That's a normal response, right.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, he was like I don't want to take that away,
you don't want to take that away.
You don't want to take thataway.
And I thought to myself in thatmoment.
I was like you know what thisis actually.
A greater principle is thatthat's a God-given gift to me to
flinch or to move because it'sgoing to keep me safe.
Anxiety is a God-given gift tous to tell us something isn't
(41:06):
right.
So, knowing that we have that,but we don't have to then crater
as a result, like your friendwas saying, how do I handle if a
person that I don't like or isreally troublesome for me shows?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
up in an environment.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
How do I handle me?
We tend to say let's make theenvironment more suitable to you
.
Yeah, when in reality, what Ihope for is that we say how do I
make myself more what's my wordAble?
(41:48):
Well, I can't think of the word.
But how do I make myself moreable to handle the environment?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yeah, I had a coach who, um I it was a video that we
were watching from um that'swhen I was doing one of the
coaching workshops and he saidum, you know, athletes are
environmental.
A lot of athletes areenvironmental If the
environment's right, not right.
Um they, they don't know how toperform.
It's like well, regardless ofthe environment.
(42:17):
I want you know they got tolearn how to perform right in
spite of that challenge andtough environment.
And so I think that's that'skind of the, I guess, the
trajectory of what, what, thework that we're both trying to
do.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Absolutely.
Athletes are doing it on theplaying field and the the people
that are darkening our doorshere are are doing it on life's
playing field.
Yeah, but the athletes aredoing it on life's playing field
as well.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
They are as well for sure, and so it's it's.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
it permeates all sides of it Absolutely.
But you're right.
You look at, like I'm going topick out a guy like Patrick
Mahomes.
I mean, that guy is like Gumbyin any environment.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
So flexible and adaptable?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Yes, and the key to mental health is flexibility.
Absolutely the key to pathologyis rigidity, and that's true on
both sides, either physical orthe metaphysical.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, I mean, we think about resilience, right,
is you know how much the abilityto withstand that pressure and
in that environment?
And so there's a lot of factorsthat allow people to be
resilient and to bend Right,Right, my my sensei would always
say you know, in life, you knowyou need to be like, um, the
those trees that, oh gosh, yeah,a willow tree, it's like in
(43:33):
life you got to be like a willowtree.
Yeah, it's like in life you gotto be like a willow tree.
He's like you know, grounded,you know deep roots, but
flexible that you don't breakwhen the when the wind blows on
you.
And I love that, yeah, and sosuch a great visual.
It is such a great visual, yeah,because it's like they're
strengthened the roots, but alsonow, like the storms, right
they come and that's part oflife.
I I often will say to clientslike how boring if life was like
easy, right.
(43:54):
I mean if, if, if you kneweverything was just going to go
perfect, you know you wouldn'tappreciate.
You know the good moments aswell, and so it's, it's part of
being able to, yeah, be, enjoythe climb.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Absolutely.
I think we were built for that,yeah, and we were built to seek
out the, not seek out thosechallenges, but we were built
for those challenges to um, forfor us to enjoy.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Agreed, you know, yeah, well, we find great
satisfaction, right, there's,there's nothing greater than
going after something pouringyour heart and soul.
And I had um, I think it was mymy mentor said because that's
living, right, that's reallyliving when you can invest your
whole self, you know, intosomething and go in.
And you know you're it's toquote Roosevelt right that your
(44:45):
face is marred with dust andblood.
You know, and at the end youknow, you, you may have been
defeated, but you tried.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that quote, that isone of my favorites, that's one
I often use.
In fact, I was doing aninterview yesterday yesterday
she's surprising them withrunner's world and, um, they
(45:07):
were talking about asking meabout um, injury and kind of
like promoting when we give somuch attention to people who are
have been injured, um, andcompete while they're injured
versus those who, you know, kindof pull themselves off.
And I was like man, it's, it'sa lot psychologically, a lot
tougher for an athlete to pullthemselves out.
(45:29):
Yes, right Of a performance,right Of a performance, right,
um, I was doing this interviewwith um runner's world about
injured athletes and, um, shewas asking me, why is it that we
give so much?
You know, we, we glorify someonecompeting, you know, with a
broken leg, you know, through amarathon.
(45:50):
And I and I said, well, I guessI'm interested in who is it
that's glorifying it?
Is it, you know, is it are thepeople that are actually in the
arena or is it the, or is it thefans in the stands?
Like, who is it that's doingthat?
You know, is it the coachesthat are glorifying that?
Right, um, because critics.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, or is it the critics that are?
Speaker 2 (46:07):
saying oh, this or that, because you know, we saw
that with um, you know, simoneBiles, when she had the twisties
and had to pull herself out.
There were a lot of critics atfirst, whereas I saw that and I
was like wow, that took so muchcourage, so much to to do what
she did.
(46:27):
To do what she did, I mean,like I can't the level of
respect that I had for for thatum and doing that on that level
was yeah, it's incredible, yeah,and the the level of
consideration, the level of selfcare, like self compassion.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, like to me that's.
That's a term that I don'tthink we truly appreciate is
that do we have self-compassion?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, yeah, Cause for a lot of, you know, when you
think about high performers, Ithink there's this inception of
you know robots and they just goin and and they're humans,
Right.
And so a big part of, even Ithink a big section of my work
is teaching people self-care.
You know good self-care.
We talk about balance.
Teaching people self-care youknow good self-care.
We talk about balance a lot andI say you know, balance is an
(47:17):
active process, Right.
So if you go too far in onedirection, right, if you get
tipped too far in one direction,then you have to make, you know
, a move to regain balance inthe other direction.
So, and that's true with work,Right, If you see this with the
accounting guys, right, andthat's true with work, right, If
you see this with theaccounting guys, right, During
tax time, they are like hey,don't talk to me.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
No, I can't go to this party.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
No, I'm not taking my kids on spring break anywhere.
I mean they are in until taxseason's over and then they have
a big blowout, you know, thingafter.
To me that's great self-careand you know when I look at, you
know some of my athletes, andespecially now that more sports
have become professionalized andit's a business, so you see
these seasons getting extendedlonger and longer and so
(48:01):
actively getting them to.
What are you doing to step awayfrom this, to recover?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Because you know a huge percentage of elite
performance is recovery rightMental, emotional, physical
recovery, and so a lot of timesathletes will look at like maybe
just the physical, but thenthey may not be doing the things
, or performers, people ingeneral, and I'm sure that's you
(48:28):
see that as well right All thetime and I think about when I
was running marathons one of thethings that my coach taught me
early on, but maybe more in themiddle of my training, was how
to recover when running downhill, and I just remember when he
started talking to me about that, I was like again, this is,
(48:50):
this extends to the metaphysicalis that we don't always get to
stop climbing to an ice bath,you know, sit there for a few
minutes, go to the sauna.
We don't always get those timesof recovery, but can we find
active recovery in the processof, even even in the process of
our, our sport?
I remember that was such apivotal moment for me that next
(49:13):
marathon I took I think I tooklike 45 minutes off of my uh,
original time, which I thoughtwas pretty, pretty incredible.
Um but uh, it was.
It was cool to this as an aside.
I was running down a Hill inthat marathon that we had really
been talking about.
I was thinking it and this mancomes up behind me out of
nowhere.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
He was an older guy and he was running down a hill
in that marathon that we hadreally been talking about and
you're thinking that.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
I was thinking it and this man comes up behind me out
of nowhere.
He's an older guy and he wasrunning and he was like hey, let
your brakes off.
And it was like a.
It was almost like the samething that my coach and I had
been talking about.
Yeah, so you kept saying don'tput on your brakes just let
yourself go.
And this older guy kept comethrough and he's like, hey, let
your brakes off, like just flowdown the hill.
(49:53):
And it was almost like he waslike a little angel that dropped
down for me, but it was reallyneat.
He gave you perspective.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Exactly Someone outside that's saying like hey.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Which is why we have to have community, which is why
we need a team.
Which is like why we weretalking about.
Neither of us like to operatesolo or individually.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
No, I mean, we are a piece of the puzzle.
We are not the only piece ofthe puzzle, that's right.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Yeah, I hope our listeners, I hope that they can
take a perspective from you thatit's truly about being
comfortable in the environment,or you finding your own sense of
comfort in you not trying tochange the environment, which I
think is brilliant.
It's the idea that we, we haveto have that sense of
(50:38):
self-compassion.
Are we willing to throwourselves out and give it a shot
?
It's that idea of of balanceand recovery, and I'm sure I'm
missing other amazing gems butGold nuggets that are hidden in
there.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
We'll both look back and be like, oh, and this one,
no, this.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
This was also good.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I always learn so much from this.
It's good.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
This has been a lot of fun for me, so thanks Ditto.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of mental
wellness, don't forget tosubscribe to the podcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
(51:29):
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Thank you.
The Thank you Welcome , dr Tracy Carrington.
Oh thanks, it's good to haveyou.
It's good to have you, it'sgood to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Thanks for having me, yeah of course, of course.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well, I wanted you to be here, I wanted to have this
time, because I think you are aremarkable human being and I
think you do some really coolthings, and I would love our
listeners to know more about whoyou are and what you do.
And I would love our listenersto know more about who you are
and what you do, and so can youdescribe for our listeners what
(01:30):
it is that you do?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Oh wow, this is like my elevator speech that I didn't
practice right.
No, okay, so I am a performancespecialist, I'm not a clinical
therapist, and I think that'swhere our relationship you know
we've developed it over theyears has been because I work
specifically in the performancearena, right, whether that's
(01:54):
with athletes or businessprofessionals or performing
artists, helping them work onthe mental skills of performance
, work on the mental skills ofperformance, um, but when you're
doing that, often things comeup, clinical things come up that
go outside of what, um, what Ispecialize in.
And so, um, coming back to you,cause I also think you're
(02:18):
remarkable, um, at what you do,and why I'm actually sitting
here is because, um, I canremember seeing your work before
I actually ever met you, causeI had yes, cause I had yes,
because I had clients and thatwere working with both of us.
They were working with you froma clinical perspective, working
with me from performanceperspective, and I remember just
being like, wait, who are youworking with?
(02:40):
Because I always I like thethings that the conversations
that you were having with themand they really overlapped well
with the work that I was alsotrying to do.
And so finally I think it camedown to I was like I got to meet
this guy, right, and then, yeah, that's that's how we met.
But I got into this fieldspecifically because I was an
(03:02):
athlete at University ofTennessee, this field
specifically because I was anathlete at University of
Tennessee and I came in and theyhad pretty high expectations of
what they thought I wassupposed to be doing and that
for sure I really underperformedand it wasn't a physical thing
but it was really mental, and sothey made me go work with the
performance specialist who is ontheir staff and and is the head
(03:25):
of their kind of mentaltraining, and I mean I guess you
could say it made a pretty umit made a lasting impression um,
because for so long, you know,if, if I performed well, I
wasn't necessarily aware of whatwere the things I was doing.
That was helping me perform well, and so having someone who
could teach me those thingshelped me become aware of where
(03:46):
I was derailing myself, um, andthe things when I was performing
at my best, and so that kind ofsnowballed into all right, I
think this is what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I love that and I will say you you started in the
beginning there and said I'm nota clinical person.
One of the things that I sorespect so respect about you,
and you've never wavered on thisis that you are so clear in
your own mind.
You're clear about where youdraw your lines as to what is
(04:16):
clinical and what is performance, and some of those lines I
might say well, I think youmight be able to like it makes
sense for you to step here, butthat's not your line and you
don't.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And I just think that is so.
That's really remarkable.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Well, I think I mean that's important part of any
good work.
And you and I have had longconversations about just from an
ethical perspective.
You know, to me it's badbusiness, right, if I'm trying
to do work with someone thatgoes outside of.
You know what my training is,what my expertise is.
You know I'm doing harm thereand specifically because our
(04:52):
boundaries are really differentin the work that we do, you know
, I travel with teams, I go intotheir practices, and so you
know, if I was going into thatenvironment and I'm working on
really deep clinical things, nowI'm, I'm becoming part of the
distraction in that, and sothat's where it becomes so
important that that I have goodrelationships with you know,
(05:14):
clinical practices likerestoration, because I can, I
can keep those somewhat separate.
So I know, ok, this person isgetting the clinical work they
they're done, that they need todo, but then now I can step in
and help them in those moments.
Okay, this is the time where weneed to set that aside so that
we can stick the landing, youknow, so that we can be ready to
(05:37):
react to the gun, um, so thatwe can get our mind right to go
compete and perform Right, um,but if they're not doing that
work, I don't work with them.
That's kind of that's anotherone of my standards.
Like, if something comes up inour session and I recognize that
they need some of thatadditional work, that's not mine
.
And whether that's they need togo meet with a dietician, they
(05:58):
need to go work, you know, meetwith an orthopedic surgeon,
because maybe they're kind of,you know, ignoring a really bad
injury, um, or they need aclinical therapist, um, if they,
if they are unwilling to dothat, then to me continuing to
work with them is just it's badbusiness.
Um I'm not doing I'm not doing agood service for them.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Right and that that makes sense because, you know,
sometimes I think about um.
You know, when you sign up fora trainer, let's say like a
coach, and they say we need, weneed three months.
I need a three month minimumbecause if you're going to see
progress, you're, it's going totake you X amount of time and so
I need to make sure that we'remaking that commitment to each
(06:39):
other.
It's like you're doing the samething.
If you're going to see a truemental mindset shift, then I
need to know that you'recommitted to get all the
ancillary from you I wouldimagine from your perspective
the ancillary things out of ourway to make sure we make
progress here.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah, and I'm sure this is same for you in your
practice, where you havecheck-ins with clients to kind
of I will make light of itusually to say, well, this is
usually where we're either goingto move forward or you're going
to fire me, because this iskind of our point of okay, we're
going to start making stepshere and making some changes,
(07:17):
and if they're unwilling tocontinue to work with someone
that's not putting in the workand the effort, then again
that's someone that's notputting in the work and the
effort, then again that's thatdoesn't really benefit anyone,
so I usually won't continueworking in those situations.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, when, what was your?
What was your college sport?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So I pole vaulted in college, yeah, yeah, but I
actually, funny enough, Istarted out as a distance runner
at university of Colorado.
Um, yeah, so I was a walk-ondistance runner for university
of Colorado and at the time Idid not know how good they were.
I mean, it's kind of comicalwhen you think about it, because
I came in and they had just wonthe national championship for
(07:56):
cross country and I mean, thisis before social media.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Okay, no judgment here people are.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
This is before right this is before the internet,
okay, you know it was big.
We're dating ourselves I know,but it was before it was easily
accessed the way you know, rightnow people can just google and
look things up.
Um, and so it wasn't.
You know, my sister ran foruniversity of texas and so I was
very familiar with kind of thesouthwest conference at that
(08:22):
time.
But I wasn't, I wasn't with.
You know, colorado, apart fromwhat a cool school and I love
skiing and um, and I knowthey're yeah, and I know they're
good.
So, yeah, I want to, I want togo do something different, I
want to go beyond, and so Iwalked onto this team, a team
that you know is full of youknow women who are on the like
(08:44):
in the hall of fame, and youknow Olympians and are just
unbelievable.
And so I was barely getting totravel to to events I mean like
scrapping by, like maybeoccasionally I get they'd take
me along, and and that's when Isaw women pole vaulting and um,
I'd always wanted to pole vault,but at the time I'm going to
date myself again.
(09:04):
Women weren't allowed to polevaulting.
And, um, I'd always wanted topole vault, but at the time I'm
gonna date myself again.
Women weren't allowed to polevault, right, oh, really yeah.
So when I was in high school,um, I really wanted to pull ball
because I had a gymnasticsbackground and I could.
Just the mechanics of it justmade sense and I saw it and I
had a good upper body strength.
I could do a bunch of pull-ups,more pull-ups than most of the
guys could do.
And so, I thought like I coulddo that, like I know how to.
(09:27):
I, I the mechanics, just madesense in my head.
Um, and so I went to the coachand said hey, I want to pull
vaults.
And the coach said you know,women can't pull vaults.
And at which point I clearlywas like hey, like my dad said,
women can do anything they wantto do and my coach was like no,
no, like really you're notallowed to pole vault.
And so it wasn't until I was incollege and I would go to these
(09:50):
meets, I'd start seeing thesewomen pole vaulting and they
weren't jumping very high, likeyou know.
To give a reference, I thinkyou know, at the olympics, the,
was you know high 16s, were youknow what?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
was scoring.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
These girls were jumping nine feet Right and
that's like.
I mean, there are girls in highschool.
You know you go to high schoolmeet.
You're going to see girls at 11, 12 and really good ones at 13
or 14 feet now.
So nine feet was like such alow level of athletic
performance but they're scoringpoints for the team.
So in my mind I thought maybeif I do that, Colorado doesn't
(10:26):
have any pole vaulters, then Icould, you know, I could
actually get to travel and hangout with my friends and do that.
And so I went home that summerand started vaulting.
Sorry, I have to pause you.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Here's what I love is you're already like what a
problem solver Like you'rethinking, like how you approach
this is from such a problemsolving.
I love that, and that's one ofthe things that I really love
about your work is that it trulyis like okay, let's get in here
.
We're not going to be youweren't, you weren't going to be
held down by the.
You can't do something.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, let's figure this out.
That's I love that.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
No, no, no, I love it , that's good.
Um, yeah, I know I'm ramblingon that, on that, no, this is
brilliant, yeah.
So, um, yeah, I saw these womenpull vaulting.
I went back, I, my dad, found agreat coach in Fort, you know,
in the Abilene I think is.
Yeah, it was in Abilene, um,and there's another coach in
Fort Worth.
I did a lot of work with who'skind of the guru here and
(11:23):
suddenly I went from kind ofbeing this walk-on to being
ranked nationally as a vaulter.
Like my jumps were up there,good enough to go to nationals,
and so suddenly schools werelooking at me from a recruiting
standpoint.
Tennessee was a really strongpole vault school and kind of
field event at the time, whereasColorado was more focused on
(11:43):
the distance running and so thecoach just wasn't interested in
showing that, but Tennessee was.
So the expectation when I cameinto Tennessee was you're
supposed to go to nationals,you're supposed to score at
nationals, and I didn't do thatthat first year, and so then
that was kind of where, yeah,where it snowballed into full
bolting, I guess.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And so to translate to today, so Tennessee would be
sort of like the NIL money,whereas whereas Boulder would
not have been.
Yeah, no, no, and I there,there wasn't any of that then.
No, that's brand new.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
No, but they, they definitely were, uh, using um at
the time because it was sobecame so popular that women
were pole vaulting.
So Tennessee was was definitelyexcited to have, you know, good
vaulters in any of the programswere, because that was where
the media attention was at thetime.
It was like oh women arevaulting, so I came in at a
great time.
They treated me really well.
(12:39):
It was it's an incredibleathletic program, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, and it set you on a really cool trajectory
where you're not only, not onlydid it change your life, but
that moment in time is changing,like the world, and I'm not
being I'm not being hyperbolicby saying that, because, if I'm,
if I'm not mistaken, you workwith folks all over the world.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I do and it's it's been a strange transition.
I guess that I didn't reallyeven conceive was possible.
Yeah, that my practice could goto that level.
So I think we have a lot of theinternet type, whether it's
Zoom or FaceTime, whatsapp.
I mean those things have justopened up.
(13:23):
At the time, I think, when Istarted, skype was huge in
opening up the world and becauseI don't have some of the same
clinical boundaries thatclinical practitioners have, I
could go and proceed that.
But, that being said, I stillhad to make sure in each of
those places I had good clinicalreferences so that if I'm in
(13:46):
another country and somethingcomes up, I have people that I
can, I can get those.
Um athletes too.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
What?
Uh, that's gotta be a reallydifficult thing to sort out,
because how do you know, like,first of all, how do you make
contact with them?
And then how do you know thatthey're?
I hate to say it this way, buthow do you know that they're?
I'll say it this way how do youknow, like, first of all, how
do you make contact with them,and then how do you know that
they're I hate to say it thisway, but how do you know that
they're?
I'll say it this way how do youknow if they're going to
provide a service that iseffective for your, for your
athletes?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
For what I want.
So I don't accept the job untilI know I have that in place.
Like that's just, that's kindof okay people.
Now you see why I love this.
No, I mean, that's seriouslylike that's part of my criteria
is making sure that thoseresources are in place so that.
And so usually you know thetimes, like going to new zealand
(14:35):
, I made sure I had peoplecontacts there in place to know,
like, if things come up, I haveresources there to get them to
where they need to go.
Um, you know paris same thing,so I, um, you know Paris same
thing, so I had people readilyavailable.
And then the same thing with umthe, just the options of Skype
and zoom and FaceTime.
That has helped tremendously.
(14:56):
But, as you know, sometimes youneed people on the ground, yeah
, to help get people um wherethey need to go.
So I haven't been to a placeyet where I've had that.
That dilemma but that's alwaysin my the forefront of my head
when I accept a job is makingsure those pieces are in place
before, um, yeah, jumping in.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Sure, and that's that's.
There's so much integrityinvolved in that from my
perspective.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I appreciate that we'll think, gosh, I want to see
you do well, and sometimesthere may be the temptation to
get ahead of ourselves and yeah,yeah, and I think, starting out
, I mean there were, it wasn'tperfect and I think, like most
people can say, I made mistakesthat, um, you know, and I was
(15:59):
fortunate that they weren't lifealtering.
Uh, mistakes, but little onesto go like man, you know there's
a better way to do this and Ineed to figure out a better way
to do this.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
The problem solving.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Well, I love, I love a good, I love a good challenge.
You know, focus mindset rightLike what's the challenge.
How do we figure this out?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, so what's been one of the most intriguing, like
amazing, things that you'veexperienced in this role?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I would say like a really cool journey that I got
to kind of be on with with aparticular athlete and I can't
get too specific.
Um was an athlete who you knowfor for those of you who don't
know about the Olympics, it'snot just a one year thing.
Right, they are on this fouryear campaign and for some of
(16:49):
them it's even an eight yearcampaign because they were on it
for the last one and theydidn't make it, or they did and
they didn't perform that waythey wanted to.
So it can be this like reallylong, and just think about that
for a moment, like when's thelast time?
You know, a lot of people havehad a goal they've gone after
for eight years and sacrificedeverything, right, they've
(17:10):
sacrificed time with theirfamily, they've sacrificed time
with their friends.
You know the toll that theirbodies had, the discipline that
they have to have to like justgo in and consistently pursuing
that goal.
So, um, yeah, to be on a truejourney with this one client who
was like right on the edge ofeven getting getting there, um,
(17:31):
and and it kind of was lookinglike it wasn't going to happen,
um, but then you know some, somepieces and some just like final
, like clutch performances thatjust kind of helped in the
overall ranking that ended upallowing this individual to
actually make it.
And so you know.
Then there's this excitement oflike and having to shift from
(17:54):
the goal being like okay, I justwant to make it to the Olympics
too.
Okay, now we want to perform atthe Olympics, right, right.
And so that had to be.
We had to pivot really quickbecause didn't even find out
that this particular individualwas going to be making it until
pretty close to go time, right.
And so now we're having to,while we're celebrating the
(18:16):
accomplishment of like, we madeit, but now we're having to
quickly, right.
So for eight years it's been agoal to just make it, to get
there to get there and now wehave to.
okay, we don't want to just getthere Now, we want to perform.
And so then to have thatathlete be able to go and, um,
you know, one of the things thatwas said was it's it was the
first time I was able to standin my nerves and and and be okay
(18:40):
with them.
I can't say I was comfortable,but like I could stand in them,
like I could stay there in in mynerves and and be okay.
And so athlete actuallyperformed really well, made it
to the finals, um, and it washuge.
And so to just like get towitness that and know, like know
(19:01):
all the things that they gothrough, you know, even just
like little things, so justtrying to get tickets so a
significant other can actuallymake it and see the competition
right, because the tickets areall sold out, and so you know
little stressors like that thatum would probably undo a lot of
people and they're having to,you you know, manage that and
(19:24):
you know the food that they'reeating and the schedules of the
buses and sleep hygiene and, um,just the roller coaster of not
making it going.
To make it not making it going.
I mean we went, you know goingthrough this whole grieving this
grieving process of like.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I'm not going to make it.
I might make it.
I'm not going to make it Imight.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I mean it.
It was.
That was really, um yeah, thatwas remarkable, and I'm not
trying to take away from theother athletes that I also got
to support, but that one justwas one that really um yeah,
stood out for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Well, sure, because it's you're.
You're part of the team andyou're part of this athlete's
team, and I'm sure that everyathlete at that level has a team
of people.
I'm certain of it.
Yeah, that they have that, thatit takes to help them achieve
at the level that they'reachieving, right.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And I met from other athletes that I'm on their team.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
No, no, I get it, yeah, okay, I totally get it.
Yeah, because it's no, I get it, I totally get it Because each
one had a different story.
Absolutely.
And yet there's certain aspectsof being on certain teams with
certain individuals, where it'slike the rise and the fall, the
excitement.
(20:40):
It doesn't take away anythingfrom anybody else, it's just
that that left such animpression.
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
But I think for me too, like I just um it's not
even just about like the highlevel Cause a lot, of, a lot of
times it's like oh, you went tothe Olympics but, like you know,
last night I was at a JV umvolleyball game and you know, I
just done a presentation withthis team.
So now I'm kind of seeing, like, are they actually implementing
(21:07):
the things we talked about?
And I'm seeing them kind ofstarting out and they're on this
role and it's looking good.
And then I start seeing them.
You know, some mistakes happenand it's spiraling and it's like
all right, this is going to beinteresting, let's kind of see.
And so to see, you know, 14, 15year olds struggling and trying
(21:27):
to work through that like Ialso get great satisfaction out
of moments like that to see themlike fighting back.
You know, teaching people likehow to have courage.
you know, because that's a bigone we talk about is, you know
courage and I always quoteprincess diaries like it's not
the absence of fear you know,she says this in there, but I
(21:48):
think it's Maya Angelou's quote,um, but I always quote it from
princess Sorry, sorry, okay,that's not a perfect but um yeah
, that, it's not that absence offear, but rather you know that
there's something more importantthan that fear.
So teaching them to have toface their fear, um well, it's
(22:09):
not courage if there's no fear.
Absolutely.
There's no bravery if there'sno fear, it's just I'm walking
through something that's in myexperience.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I guess I would say normal, right, but when we
experience fear, like you'resaying, the courage is I have to
grab something extra courage totake with me to go through this
, because otherwise I wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that I was listening toum, one of my really good
friends does another podcast andI was listening to conversation
between and I know both of themreally well and, um, one of the
guys works for the diamondbacksand he was saying he was
describing mental performanceand kind of like how training
mental performance?
(22:49):
And he said, um, it's not amental performance is not, um,
positive thinking.
Right, it's mental performance,is positive action, kind of
regardless of what you'rethinking Right.
And so, um, I think that's abig part of the practice of in
the way that I like to approachit too is like, what are the
actions you're going to take?
(23:10):
Right, cause we can't controlwhat happened, but we can
control how we respond to that,and I like that Cause I think
you and I have a very similarapproach.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Spot on with that.
I was just thinking that thestudy that we finished a couple
of years ago with depressionthat's one of the things that I
talk about this often because itwas such a I feel like it was
such a monumental outcome isthat problem solving?
That's why I love that you'realways problem solving.
(23:39):
We talk about that a lot in ourconversations, about our work,
but problem solving helpedpeople who were struggling with
depression, who had chronicdepression, 15 years of
intractable depression.
That teaching them how toproblem solve, not for other
things, not for the environmentper se, but for themselves.
(24:00):
What do I want out of me?
It's just like what you'retalking about with the, with
your friend on their podcasttalking about.
It's really about what?
How do I want to behave?
In other words, in your world.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
You can control exactly that.
You have control over right theactions you take.
You are in control of youractions right.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So in your world it's how do I want to perform.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
In my world it's how do I want to behave, but we're
saying the exact same thing,yeah, which is why I think we I
think we compliment each otherwell in that, because it's
speaking that same language.
Right, no, go ahead.
I was just saying, like oftenwhen I know I have a client
who's working with a clinicaltherapist, I usually want to
find out like well, what didthey say, or what was their
(24:43):
feedback.
And I like to say that tofinding out what does a coach
say, because I'm trying tofigure out how to work with you
know what they have, versus likecrashing against it, like I
don't want.
I don't want to go like wait,this one said this and this one
said this, so, and sometimesit's even interpreting like,
okay, well, this might be howthey were.
You know meaning for this to beused, cause I'm sure, as you
(25:06):
know, sometimes you think you'vehad a really clear message with
the client and then later youcome back in and you're like,
wow, okay, that's different thanwhat I thought you got from
that.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I thought I said these things, that got
interpreted Sure, and and that's.
You know, we talk aboutproprioception.
I mean, I know, in your worldwith athletes you talk about
proprioception.
It's how does my body movethrough gravity, how do I
navigate gravity with my ownbody?
I think is maybe a gross way ofsaying what proprioception is.
And in psychology we look at aswe look at it as what is my
(25:42):
perceptual understanding, andthat's that metaphysical
proprioception I call it is that?
how do I ingest the world andthrough what filter do I see it?
And you know, you watchsomebody run and you think, oh
gosh, they don't haveproprioception, they don't.
They don't see like that, theylook like Phoebe, you know, and
(26:05):
they may be, you know, flailingabout.
And we sometimes see that inthe perceptual understanding,
psychologically speaking, andthat's how we gauge where
somebody is perceptually is, byhow wait, how did you hear that?
How did that work out?
And so that again,instinctually on your part, I
(26:27):
love that.
That's what how you walk thisthrough with people is.
You're working withproprioception, but also that
perceptual understanding.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
And that's where I think too.
That's, you know, where I thinkours crosses, but does it
compliments, compliments, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
The way that I really like to work with athletes, and
I'm sure you do too, is there'sthat top down approach, but
then there's also the bottom up,and so the top down being, you
know, the mental skills to helpmanage performance, but then the
bottom up being how do I managemy body to manage my mind?
Right, right, because you know,sometimes we're the feigning
being.
How do I manage my body tomanage my mind?
Right, right, because you know,sometimes we're the feigning
(27:07):
goat.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
And every.
If you haven't seen videos of afeigning goat, then you need to
like look it up, stop and.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Google that Stop and.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Google it Cause it's funny, but it's actually, it's
actually kind of sad.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, cause they, they have such a heightened
state of um, a stress response,that they pass out.
And part of why cause, in mymind, I was having this
conversation with a client whoworks with a lot of horses and
things like that, and so we werehaving this conversation like
hey, don't be the fainting goat.
And she's like yeah, it'sreally sad about those fainting
goats because they breed them sothat if, like coyotes attack
(27:44):
the, the herd, then that onewill pass out.
The coyote will get thatinstead of injuring eight or 10
of them.
Um, so they really are thesacrificial goat, um in in that
herd to kind of protect the restof the thing.
But the response being, you know, in performance we sometimes
get those the white knuckles,that heightened state of stress.
(28:06):
And so a big part is helping,you know, my clients and
athletes understand what thoseresponses are and then how they
can manage that.
And the cool part is they'reathletes.
So they really buy into that,like hey, you're an athlete,
like here's a new technique ofhow to manage your body, whether
that's, you know, learning howto manage their eyesight Right.
(28:28):
So, because they'll get into areally heightened state of
stress, eyes will be reallysharp.
So even just like learning howto relax their vision, as you
know, a a way as a relaxationtechnique, and that has been, um
, it's fun, right.
I think it's fun working themfrom kind of both sides.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Absolutely, because some people, like you said, some
people are going to be moregeared for the, for the top down
, the logic to the practical,and then other people are going
to be more geared towards thebottom up, which is the
experience to them, the logic.
Yeah, I think that's, I thinkit's great, when you like, if we
think about all these athletesthat you're working with in this
(29:10):
, this high level of performance.
You don't only work withathletes, right, right, you work
with executives who are highlevel, high performers,
absolutely.
So how does that translate?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Um well, do you want me to first share how I got into
that, because I think thatone's that this story always
kind of makes me laugh.
So I was working with a, theson of a business professional,
so to speak and so I'd beendoing work with him and he
(29:41):
started, you know, kind ofasking like hey, do you ever
work with you know kind ofbusiness type clients?
And I was like no, like that'snot really my training, it's not
really what I'm good at.
I don't.
You know, no, I don't reallyknow how I would, I would even
do that.
And he's like I like I thinkyou could do this.
So here I have this guy who'slike he's having to convince me,
like kind of sell me, that heshould be my client.
(30:02):
I'm like okay, like I mean, wecan try this out, let's kind of
see how this goes.
And and from that, as I startedworking with him, that was when
I began to realize a lot of thecrossover between that.
So I don't ever claim to be anexpert in business, but I do
understand people, I dounderstand performance, I do
(30:23):
understand helping get the bestout of performance.
I do, and I think one of thethings I feel like is my purpose
is helping people get the rightpeople that they need.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Right, yes, which is how you approach the athlete, I
need to have, I need, if I needa dietician, if I need a mental
health, a clinical person, if Ineed an orthopedic surgeon.
You started off with that.
It's like you get, you have tohave your team right, but, but
what you're doing, I think, iswhat you're saying, at least is
what I've experienced in workingwith you is is that you also
(30:56):
take that person and say okay,you're the hub you need to get
the people that are going to.
Let's help you.
Find the people that are goingto help you.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, and a lot of that I mean similarly and we've
talked about this is just byasking questions and finding out
kind of what is you know, whatis going on, where are their
struggles?
And then that's usually whereI'm better able to identify like
who, who they need you know andget them in that direction.
And one of the things I'vealways respected about you is
(31:25):
when you don't know something,you'll say yeah.
I don't know and like, hey, letme check on that.
Or let me ask someone else and,um, I think we kind of share
that similar thing, Like I'm I'mnot afraid to say, hey, I don't
know, but let me look into that, let me research that.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Um, it's a research background 've geek out on the
science part of it.
So, yeah, that makes two of usand yeah, I appreciate you
saying that it's.
It's uh to me being like Ialways, I always want to be a
learner.
I always want to learn more andknow more, and you know when
will it be enough.
You know when will you be tothe point where you've learned
enough?
The answer is more.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Right no.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I don't.
I don't ever want to stoplearning, and I feel like you're
the same way and knowing thatwe can never know everything.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
That's wisdom right, right, right and part of the
beauty of not know.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
You're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Well, I'm saying that because there's this, this
children's book that I wouldalways read to my son, and it
was the cookies bite-sized lifelessons.
Did you ever have that?
one in your in your mix, but itwas great because it would have
these you know kind of corevalues.
It'd be like, you know,optimistic, you know, oh, yay, I
still have, you know, half acookie left.
Pessimistic, oh no, I only havehalf a cookie left.
(32:45):
Um, but wisdom was the lastpage of this book and I always
liked it because it was a way toteach you know my son about you
know kind of different, kind ofcore principles.
And in wisdom, it said I used tothink I knew everything there
was to know about baking cookies.
Now I realize I only know abouta chip's worth.
And to me, like when I think ofbeing wise and having wisdom,
(33:08):
is recognizing how little youknow and realizing you know that
you constantly have ways tolearn and grow.
And so if that's what I expectmy clients to do, then I think
you know we have to be doing thesame thing as well and
constantly being, you know,looking at ourselves, figuring
out how can we learn and growand do better.
And and to quote you know, my,my mentor, he would always say
(33:30):
you know green and growing, andif not, you're just dead fruit
on the vine ready to be picked.
And so he was like gotta begreen and growing, green and
growing, and, and I always likedthat.
So it's like anytime.
I myself maybe um stuck in myways where I'm thinking like, oh
well, like I know this um, it'susually where I have to do some
(33:51):
quick self-check and go okay,we got some green and grind to
do here baby yeah, because wedon't want to be picked from the
no no, we're about to getslaughtered and you know, the
thing to me that's so fun aboutthis is that we can call it
wisdom.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
I would I, I and I would agree.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
And I wasn't saying we're so wise.
That wasn't what I was meaning.
It just made me think of that.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
But I think to acknowledge that is is
appropriate, yeah, is to saythat we have grown to a point
I've grown to a point in mycareer.
You've grown to a point in yourcareer to where we are wise
enough to say, because wisdom isa spectrum, right, we're not
saying we're the wisest of all,like that we're somehow a God.
No, absolutely not.
But what I think you are saying, and I'm concurring with, is
(34:38):
that we've both grown to a pointto where we're wise enough to
say, I don't know, yeah, and Ithink it takes some humility to
say that Absolutely.
And I think that for me, partof the I don't know that's
exciting is the idea that I getto call up a buddy.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Right, I get to call up Tracy and go oh my gosh,
what's your thought on this?
And we get to have a fun hourlong conversation, right that?
It's like that we get to to toshare with each other what we
know, which may I feel like itmakes both of us better.
And then it's a piece of sayinglike it's, it's a piece of of
(35:16):
connecting, which I think isreally cool.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
And I think that you know it goes back to even kind
of the corporate consulting thatyou're talking about, where I
think sometimes leaders you knowwhether it's a leader of a
practice, whether it's theleader of a you know division,
one team or a professional team,whether it's a CEO.
Sometimes there's this likepressure of like, oh, I'm, I'm
in charge, so I'm supposed toknow, and so, like one of the
(35:42):
first things and my research formy dissertation was on coaches
and job transition.
So how do, like new headcoaches come in and like, create
a program, you know, get theright personnel, build a
foundation, develop trust, youknow all of those aspects.
And so when you know, when youget to that top, one of the big
(36:02):
things that came out from thatresearch was this idea of having
outside people that you couldgo to and talk to.
And you know, I have my ownprivate practice and it's just
me, and so it would be reallyeasy to just be on my own little
island like, okay, I shouldhave all the answers and I.
But I quickly found, found, um,when I acted in that way, I
(36:26):
didn't do very good work my workwasn't as quality, um, and so
for me, like, having like a goodnetwork of people, having you
that I can can tell me like, hey, what do you think about this?
Like, give me, give me, what amI missing here, what am I not
seeing?
Um has helped me, um, be betterat what I do and, like as an
athlete I tell having been aformer athlete when I work with
(36:50):
athletes, I'd say there's areason why we have coaches,
right, because they help us seethings that we can't see in
ourself when we're performing.
And I think the same inprofessional practice, whether
that's you know business or youknow whatever aspect having
other people who can ask yougood questions, right, I, I like
to surround myself with thepeople who ask good questions of
(37:10):
me and challenge me in that wayto think about um, why am I
doing that and what?
Well, what is my, my processand my thought through that?
So that um that helps bring outmy best.
So absolutely.
You're one of you're in mycircle.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Thank you, and as you are in mine, and what you're
talking about is that here weare, green and growing so that
we're not static on the vine.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
If, if I were to say, like cause, you know, the whole
premise of our podcast here isbeyond the couch, yeah, it's.
It's saying, you know, like wewant to always hopefully leave
people with something that theycan do on their own.
The thing that really resonatedwith me is you saying that this
athlete found that place tostand in their nerves.
(37:56):
They didn't love it now, butthey said I found a place that I
could stand in my nerves and becontent, maybe, or okay, with
it.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Okay with it.
Yeah, Okay with it.
I have a colleague who worksfor the USOC and the way he
describes it is he said you know, imagine you show up to this
party and you know you're havingsuch a good time and everyone's
there, and then that one personthat you really didn't want to
see shows up.
How do you respond in thatsituation, Like can you still,
(38:26):
in that space, like be okay withthat person, or do you just
like leave the party completely?
And so, yeah, when this clientsaid that like I was able to
stand in my nerves, that wasjust like it's still, I got
goosebumps.
If you can, see it, you'retelling the whole story, I know
(38:47):
it's uncomfortable, you know,and I think that's that's the
key that a big one.
When we talk to athletes a lotof times you know when they come
in they're wanting to get ridof the nerves and the discomfort
.
And, um, I'm like it's not thatwe're getting rid of the, you
know, the.
I feel like I'm quoting a TVshow on this, but and it was, it
was a sports psychologist on aTV show.
(39:09):
She was telling her client it'snot that you're getting rid of
the the minds, you know, becausehe said, I feel like I'm
walking through a minefield shesaid it's no, you're not getting
rid of the minefield, you'rejust learning how to navigate it
better.
That's right, yeah, and so Ifeel like that, and that's.
You know, I love to use tedlasso or whatever like I will
use all sorts of anything I canto kind of, you know, have a
(39:32):
point resonate with it yeah,make it relatable.
But I liked that analogy ofthinking about, um, when we're
trying to perform mentally, itdoesn't mean that you know, you
don't have those feelings.
You're human, so it's normal tohave fear, it's normal to have
doubt, it's normal to beinsecure.
But how, what do I do so I canactually be in that space and
(39:54):
still do what I want to do andperform?
You know that that that doesn'tcontrol me, right?
I control myself in that space.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Exactly Because that's what we have control over
.
Getting rid of the minds is is,in essence, trying to control.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, yeah.
You're like, I want this greatlittle perfect.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Right, and we can't do that.
That's why we talk aboutmanaging depression, managing
anxiety.
We don't make it go away.
I remember in college, one ofmy college roommates was this he
was a bodybuilder and he wasinto martial arts and I remember
I think we would train togetherand I would say, okay, I really
(40:32):
want you to help me get rid ofmy flinch, like I don't want to
flinch if somebody, like youknow, tries to punch at my head
and he's like dude, you're anidiot.
And he was right.
That was an idiotic thing.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
That's a normal response, right.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, he was like I don't want to take that away,
you don't want to take that away.
You don't want to take thataway.
And I thought to myself in thatmoment.
I was like you know what thisis actually.
A greater principle is thatthat's a God-given gift to me to
flinch or to move because it'sgoing to keep me safe.
Anxiety is a God-given gift tous to tell us something isn't
(41:06):
right.
So, knowing that we have that,but we don't have to then crater
as a result, like your friendwas saying, how do I handle if a
person that I don't like or isreally troublesome for me shows?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
up in an environment.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
How do I handle me?
We tend to say let's make theenvironment more suitable to you
.
Yeah, when in reality, what Ihope for is that we say how do I
make myself more what's my wordAble?
(41:48):
Well, I can't think of the word.
But how do I make myself moreable to handle the environment?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yeah, I had a coach who, um I it was a video that we
were watching from um that'swhen I was doing one of the
coaching workshops and he saidum, you know, athletes are
environmental.
A lot of athletes areenvironmental If the
environment's right, not right.
Um they, they don't know how toperform.
It's like well, regardless ofthe environment.
(42:17):
I want you know they got tolearn how to perform right in
spite of that challenge andtough environment.
And so I think that's that'skind of the, I guess, the
trajectory of what, what, thework that we're both trying to
do.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Absolutely.
Athletes are doing it on theplaying field and the the people
that are darkening our doorshere are are doing it on life's
playing field.
Yeah, but the athletes aredoing it on life's playing field
as well.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
They are as well for sure, and so it's it's.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
it permeates all sides of it Absolutely.
But you're right.
You look at, like I'm going topick out a guy like Patrick
Mahomes.
I mean, that guy is like Gumbyin any environment.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
So flexible and adaptable?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Yes, and the key to mental health is flexibility.
Absolutely the key to pathologyis rigidity, and that's true on
both sides, either physical orthe metaphysical.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, I mean, we think about resilience, right,
is you know how much the abilityto withstand that pressure and
in that environment?
And so there's a lot of factorsthat allow people to be
resilient and to bend Right,Right, my my sensei would always
say you know, in life, you knowyou need to be like, um, the
those trees that, oh gosh, yeah,a willow tree, it's like in
(43:33):
life you got to be like a willowtree.
Yeah, it's like in life you gotto be like a willow tree.
He's like you know, grounded,you know deep roots, but
flexible that you don't breakwhen the when the wind blows on
you.
And I love that, yeah, and sosuch a great visual.
It is such a great visual, yeah,because it's like they're
strengthened the roots, but alsonow, like the storms, right
they come and that's part oflife.
I I often will say to clientslike how boring if life was like
easy, right.
(43:54):
I mean if, if, if you kneweverything was just going to go
perfect, you know you wouldn'tappreciate.
You know the good moments aswell, and so it's, it's part of
being able to, yeah, be, enjoythe climb.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Absolutely.
I think we were built for that,yeah, and we were built to seek
out the, not seek out thosechallenges, but we were built
for those challenges to um, forfor us to enjoy.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Agreed, you know, yeah, well, we find great
satisfaction, right, there's,there's nothing greater than
going after something pouringyour heart and soul.
And I had um, I think it was mymy mentor said because that's
living, right, that's reallyliving when you can invest your
whole self, you know, intosomething and go in.
And you know you're it's toquote Roosevelt right that your
(44:45):
face is marred with dust andblood.
You know, and at the end youknow, you, you may have been
defeated, but you tried.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that quote, that isone of my favorites, that's one
I often use.
In fact, I was doing aninterview yesterday yesterday
she's surprising them withrunner's world and, um, they
(45:07):
were talking about asking meabout um, injury and kind of
like promoting when we give somuch attention to people who are
have been injured, um, andcompete while they're injured
versus those who, you know, kindof pull themselves off.
And I was like man, it's, it'sa lot psychologically, a lot
tougher for an athlete to pullthemselves out.
(45:29):
Yes, right Of a performance,right Of a performance, right,
um, I was doing this interviewwith um runner's world about
injured athletes and, um, shewas asking me, why is it that we
give so much?
You know, we, we glorify someonecompeting, you know, with a
broken leg, you know, through amarathon.
(45:50):
And I and I said, well, I guessI'm interested in who is it
that's glorifying it?
Is it, you know, is it are thepeople that are actually in the
arena or is it the, or is it thefans in the stands?
Like, who is it that's doingthat?
You know, is it the coachesthat are glorifying that?
Right, um, because critics.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, or is it the critics that are?
Speaker 2 (46:07):
saying oh, this or that, because you know, we saw
that with um, you know, simoneBiles, when she had the twisties
and had to pull herself out.
There were a lot of critics atfirst, whereas I saw that and I
was like wow, that took so muchcourage, so much to to do what
she did.
(46:27):
To do what she did, I mean,like I can't the level of
respect that I had for for thatum and doing that on that level
was yeah, it's incredible, yeah,and the the level of
consideration, the level of selfcare, like self compassion.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, like to me that's.
That's a term that I don'tthink we truly appreciate is
that do we have self-compassion?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, yeah, Cause for a lot of, you know, when you
think about high performers, Ithink there's this inception of
you know robots and they just goin and and they're humans,
Right.
And so a big part of, even Ithink a big section of my work
is teaching people self-care.
You know good self-care.
We talk about balance.
Teaching people self-care youknow good self-care.
We talk about balance a lot andI say you know, balance is an
(47:17):
active process, Right.
So if you go too far in onedirection, right, if you get
tipped too far in one direction,then you have to make, you know
, a move to regain balance inthe other direction.
So, and that's true with work,Right, If you see this with the
accounting guys, right, andthat's true with work, right, If
you see this with theaccounting guys, right, During
tax time, they are like hey,don't talk to me.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
No, I can't go to this party.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
No, I'm not taking my kids on spring break anywhere.
I mean they are in until taxseason's over and then they have
a big blowout, you know, thingafter.
To me that's great self-careand you know when I look at, you
know some of my athletes, andespecially now that more sports
have become professionalized andit's a business, so you see
these seasons getting extendedlonger and longer and so
(48:01):
actively getting them to.
What are you doing to step awayfrom this, to recover?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Because you know a huge percentage of elite
performance is recovery rightMental, emotional, physical
recovery, and so a lot of timesathletes will look at like maybe
just the physical, but thenthey may not be doing the things
, or performers, people ingeneral, and I'm sure that's you
(48:28):
see that as well right All thetime and I think about when I
was running marathons one of thethings that my coach taught me
early on, but maybe more in themiddle of my training, was how
to recover when running downhill, and I just remember when he
started talking to me about that, I was like again, this is,
(48:50):
this extends to the metaphysicalis that we don't always get to
stop climbing to an ice bath,you know, sit there for a few
minutes, go to the sauna.
We don't always get those timesof recovery, but can we find
active recovery in the processof, even even in the process of
our, our sport?
I remember that was such apivotal moment for me that next
(49:13):
marathon I took I think I tooklike 45 minutes off of my uh,
original time, which I thoughtwas pretty, pretty incredible.
Um but uh, it was.
It was cool to this as an aside.
I was running down a Hill inthat marathon that we had really
been talking about.
I was thinking it and this mancomes up behind me out of
nowhere.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
He was an older guy and he was running down a hill
in that marathon that we hadreally been talking about and
you're thinking that.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
I was thinking it and this man comes up behind me out
of nowhere.
He's an older guy and he wasrunning and he was like hey, let
your brakes off.
And it was like a.
It was almost like the samething that my coach and I had
been talking about.
Yeah, so you kept saying don'tput on your brakes just let
yourself go.
And this older guy kept comethrough and he's like, hey, let
your brakes off, like just flowdown the hill.
(49:53):
And it was almost like he waslike a little angel that dropped
down for me, but it was reallyneat.
He gave you perspective.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Exactly Someone outside that's saying like hey.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Which is why we have to have community, which is why
we need a team.
Which is like why we weretalking about.
Neither of us like to operatesolo or individually.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
No, I mean, we are a piece of the puzzle.
We are not the only piece ofthe puzzle, that's right.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Yeah, I hope our listeners, I hope that they can
take a perspective from you thatit's truly about being
comfortable in the environment,or you finding your own sense of
comfort in you not trying tochange the environment, which I
think is brilliant.
It's the idea that we, we haveto have that sense of
(50:38):
self-compassion.
Are we willing to throwourselves out and give it a shot
?
It's that idea of of balanceand recovery, and I'm sure I'm
missing other amazing gems butGold nuggets that are hidden in
there.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
We'll both look back and be like, oh, and this one,
no, this.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
This was also good.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
I always learn so much from this.
It's good.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, no, I appreciate it.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
This has been a lot of fun for me, so thanks Ditto.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of mental
wellness, don't forget tosubscribe to the podcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
(51:29):
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Thank you.
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