Building Healthy Sexual Relationships

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In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with Nancy Houston, a seasoned sex therapist, to talk openly about sex, intimacy, and the struggles that can often go unspoken. Together, they explore how intimacy impacts emotional health, the challenges couples may face, and pathways toward healing and deeper connection.

This conversation sheds light on a sensitive but essential topic, offering both understanding and hope for those navigating intimacy issues.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr.
Lee Long, and before we begin, Iwanted to offer a quick note.
This episode contains sensitivetopics around sex, intimacy, and
dysfunction.
Some listeners may find thisdiscussion activating or
triggering, so please take careof yourself as you listen.

(00:24):
If you need to pause or stepaway at any point, please do
what feels right for you.
In this episode, I'm joined byNancy Houston, a sex therapist,
to talk about the vital role ofintimacy in relationships and
how struggles in this area canaffect our overall well-being.
Together, we'll explore bothchallenges and the opportunities

(00:48):
for growth, healing, andconnection when it comes to sex
and intimacy.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
I think this topic is so big andbroad that I think that it's
also something that it can be abit of a lightning rod because

(01:09):
it's so into I believe it'sbecause it's so intimate and
personal.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13):
The topic of sex and and the intimacy and the
dysfunction that comes withthat.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
Yeah.

unknown (01:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
So absolutely you've been how how long have you been
in this realm and in this world?
Like, tell us about yourbackground.

SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
Let's see here, gal.
I gotta go back a ways.
So, you know, when I firstbecame a therapist, like 25
years ago.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
Um, I realized one day at the end of the day, I
think I'd seen seven or eightclients, and all of them had
sexual trauma.

SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
That's unreal.

SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Not one, not two, not three.
I did have uh it kind of like apractice of asking clients,
well, tell me about the sexualpart of your life.
You know, because I just thinkthat that's a question people
don't get asked.

SPEAKER_00 (02:12):
No, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_02 (02:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
I think that gets avoided.
It even in the therapy sessions.

SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
It so gets avoided.
Yeah.
And what would surprise me islike, oh my gosh, this person's
been in therapy for years andnobody's ever asked them.
And this is really where theroot of their greatest wounding
is.

SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:34):
You know, like they'd say, Well, I I mean, I'll
never forget one woman who'sprobably about 70.
And she said, Well, when I wassix years old.
Jeez.
I had that happen all of thetime.
And I'm like, you mean for 60some years you've been holding

(02:56):
this shameful secret?

unknown (02:59):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (03:00):
I mean, not that what you did was shameful, but
what was done to you, right?
Was shameful.

unknown (03:05):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (03:05):
And you've never had a voice or an outlook for it.
And she goes, Yes.
And I remember even liketeaching on just on human
sexuality, just like basiceducation.

SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (03:20):
And having older people come up and say, you
know, I really kind of want toshake you.
And I'm like, why?
Because we needed this 50 yearsago.
Wow.
Where were you?

SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (03:32):
And so there's just such a need, but it's also an
uncomfortable topic.

SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
Sure it is.
Sure it is.
And I think about the Kaiser,the Kaiser Permanente study, the
that turned into the ACE's theadverse childhood experiences.
And that was a weight lossstudy.

SPEAKER_03 (03:52):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
And what they realized was they they kept
having people drop out.
They would lose the weight andthey would go away.
They would drop out of thestudy.
And so, like any good researchernoticing trends, they they it
would be, why are we losing allthese participants?

SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So they went back and and interviewed them.
And they they went back througha psychosocial sexual history.
Yeah.
They said, Could you tell usabout your first sexual
experience?
And it was exactly what you'redescribing.
They many would say, Well, whenI was nine, when I was 11, and

(04:32):
they're like, Whoa, wait, wait,wait, how old were you?
Yeah.
And what they found was thatthere were all of these adverse
childhood experiences.
And that's where that that thatstudy shifted from a weight loss
and health endeavor and reallybecame understanding the trauma.

SPEAKER_02 (04:53):
That is so fascinating.
I'm so glad they did that.

SPEAKER_00 (04:56):
Oh, me too.

SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Because, you know, we we uh have some sayings that
I think can be applicable, notalways, but like sex oftentimes
gets stuck where it starts.

SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (05:09):
You know, so you think if there's an adverse
sexual experience.

SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (05:14):
Um, and and whatever that is, for some, it's like,
well, one time my sibling heldme down and kissed me and
touched me, and I've never beenable to get past it.

SPEAKER_01 (05:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
For others, it's, you know, obviously like a
neighbor down the streetsexually molested them, you
know, anywhere from rape tobeing touched to you know what I
mean?
But but still it just gets stuckin their psyche, and I think it
gets stuck in their nervoussystem and in their bodies.

SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
So when we think about weight loss, and yeah, you
lost all this weight, but now,now what?
Because you're still livinginside of your own body.
And for some, it's like, but Iput on weight as a protective
dairy.

SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
And that's what they found.
When they went back to theseindividuals, they were like, I
had dropped a lot of weight.
I started getting attention andI didn't know what to do with
it.
So I'm out.

SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
That's right.
And I had a great friend, andher husband lost all his weight.
I'm like, gosh, your husbandlooks great.
I bet you're proud of him.
She goes, No, I cannot stand it.
My first husband was superhandsome and cheated on me all
the time.

SPEAKER_01 (06:25):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 (06:26):
My second husband, part of the reason I felt safe
with him is because he wasn'tall hot and sexy.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (06:35):
And she goes, so no, I'm not comfortable with this at
all.

SPEAKER_00 (06:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
And I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_00 (06:40):
That's so interesting because it does.
We those things provoke the hurtin us.
And I feel like all too often weallow the environment to dictate
to us how we're going toexperience things.

SPEAKER_02 (06:54):
Oh my gosh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
So I'm curious.
You I love your statement of sexgets stuck where it started.

SPEAKER_02 (07:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
Can you unpack that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 (07:05):
I mean, it can.

SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (07:08):
Right?
Right.
I think in some way it getsstuck.
I'm not saying that, let's saysomebody had sexual trauma that
they can't have a great sexlife.
Not saying that.

SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
But somewhere inside of their psyche, somewhere
inside of their emotional worldand their nervous system and in
their bodies, it does get stuck.
And and then we see, all I waswith a client yesterday and and
and she's young and acting out,and in all these hurtful sexual

(07:40):
relationships.
And so, you know, I kind of juststart pulling the thread.

SPEAKER_01 (07:44):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (07:44):
You know, like, oh, where's this gonna if we pull on
this today, where's it gonnatake us to?
And for her, it went back tosome adverse sexual experiences
starting around eight.

unknown (07:57):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (07:58):
And so she is psychologically in some ways
stuck there.
So I asked her, like, hey, ifyou were just to picture
yourself in a safe room,nobody's in there with you,
there's no door, so nobody cancome in.
There's a window, so we can lookin the window.
How old is that person in there?

(08:20):
And she said, she's eight.
Wow.
You know, so I'm like, well,let's kind of start.
How did she feel then?
Well, she felt safe.
Well, what happened then afterthe little girl felt safe?

unknown (08:34):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (08:35):
And so she just kind of started unpacking it.

SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (08:38):
You know, and I I think if we can like I've I've
always thought part of my roleis just to be a normalizer of
human sexuality.

SPEAKER_01 (08:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:49):
You know, we're all sexual creatures.

SPEAKER_01 (08:51):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
We are from the time we're born to the time we die,
is just a part of our humanity.
Right.
It's it's a big deal and it'snot a big deal.
Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
It does.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (09:03):
It's just so normal and regular.
I'd like to get people to thinkabout it and talk about it like
it's just normal and regular andpart of who we are.
Right.
And if you've had badexperiences, it's okay to find a
safe person.

SPEAKER_00 (09:18):
I think so.
I you know what I find superinteresting, and I love what
you're saying, is that thingsthat are traumatic don't have to
live in our soul as trauma.

SPEAKER_03 (09:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
It's it's connection and being able to externalize
something that helps it not livein our body as trauma because
traumatic things happen.
They do.
And it's us having the ability,or really not the well, it is
the ability, but really theplace to feel safe to say this

(09:57):
happened and it was scary, ithurt, it was it was traumatic.
Yeah.
And for someone to sit andreceive that and to walk with
you through that, yeah, thatthat's truly the recipe that
I've seen that keeps thetraumatic from turning into
long-term or chronic trauma.

SPEAKER_02 (10:15):
Oh my gosh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
And when you think about, like I I I when you think
about the concept of um sex andnormalizing sex, yeah.
What was sex intended for?

SPEAKER_03 (10:27):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (10:28):
Connection and pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 (10:30):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
And it's a that's right.
It's a play, it can be a playfulthing.

SPEAKER_02 (10:34):
It could be meant to be exactly a place of
playfulness.
And when we think about, well,play is the antidote for a harsh
world.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (10:49):
I do.

SPEAKER_02 (10:50):
And so I'm like, gosh, if if couples could
happily sexually play together,it it would be it's such an
antidote, even to just likebeing married, like, you know,
because marriage isn't alwaysfun and easy, right?

SPEAKER_01 (11:06):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (11:07):
But if we can still have fun together sexually, then
you know, I know like with myhusband, sometimes I'm like, you
annoy me.
Yeah, not all the time, but one,you know, sometimes, right?
Definitely he's he's amazing andwonderful.
But you know, we just have thosemoments.
I'm assuming like everybodydoes.

SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:28):
Right.
And it sometimes in thosemoments I'm like, I'd probably
be good, just set my annoyanceaside and we go make love to
each other.
You know, and then when we do,I'm like, huh, I can't remember
what you were what was annoyingme.
You know, because it just shiftsthings and soothes.
Yeah.
I think it is meant to be kindof like a soothing and a
smoothing.

SPEAKER_00 (11:48):
Yeah.
And I, you know, the the thingthat I think is important in
what you're saying, one of themany things I think that's
important in what you're sayingis that it is a, you're, you're
right, it is a reconnection.
Yeah.
I know so many guys that I workwith that are frustrated or
feel, you know, overwhelmed thattheir wife feels like, well, you

(12:09):
just want to make up in orderfor us to head to the bedroom.
And it's like, no, I want tomake up.
And then heading to the bedroomis really like reconnecting
sexually.
Yeah.
Really, for him, is areconnection.
I want to be close to you.

SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
Oh, totally.
And so I think sometimes femalescan misjudge males.
Now, and I hesitate to make anyblanket statements.

SPEAKER_01 (12:35):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (12:36):
Because there are some men out there who are
horrible lovers.

unknown (12:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
And they might want to, instead of like demanding
sex or pouting about sex, sayask their ways like, well, what
would what would you enjoy?
Or what can I do differently?
Or how can I be better at thiswith you?
You know what I mean?
And really make her feel safe.
Like that's a great place tostart.

SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
I think that's the key.

SPEAKER_02 (13:01):
Like, if you don't have safety, you can't have
playfulness.

SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
So, so one of the things about that, and I'm sorry
to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
You know, people say, Well, love needs to be
unconditional.

SPEAKER_03 (13:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
And I'm like, Yeah, love is unconditional or can be
unconditional.
But intimacy, yeah, by its verydefinition, is absolutely
conditional.

SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
And love and intimacy don't always go
together.

SPEAKER_02 (13:27):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
I can love someone and say, I will never allow
myself to be close to them.

SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
Because I don't, I I do not trust that intimacy can
be there.

SPEAKER_03 (13:40):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
How do you how do you work with couples that I
mean, I'm a you work withcouples.
Yeah.
And the couples come in and say,We are stuck.

SPEAKER_03 (13:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
We're stuck in a rut.
We don't know how to get out ofit.
Yeah.
We want to get out of it.

SPEAKER_03 (13:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:56):
Or one one partner wants to get out of it.
How do you like what's thewhat's the theme there?
What's the approach?

SPEAKER_02 (14:03):
Oh, that's so good.
Cause I mean, and honestly, I'mlike, I just try to start
exploring, well, where are youstuck?

SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (14:12):
Is it because you're not connecting at all
emotionally and it's affectingyou in the bedroom?

SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
Do you think that that emotional component has to
precede, has to come before thatphysical sexual component?

SPEAKER_02 (14:27):
I think the older you get, the more important it
is.
Yeah.
I mean, sometimes, you know,when you're just young and
horny, it's, you know, you know,couples really are like,
whatever.
You know.

SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
We can have sex at the drop of a hat, you know.
No matter what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
But do you think that that, like sex at the drop
of a hat, do you think thatthat's more physical than it is
emotionally connecting?

SPEAKER_02 (14:50):
I think, I think it is.

SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (14:51):
And I think as you age, the emotional connection
becomes more and more important.
Yeah.
And probably who you are.
You know, some people I thinkare more sexual, more physical,
um, have higher sex drives.
And, you know, I've had couplessay, well, the only thing that
holds us together is sex.
Because otherwise, we cannot geton the same page at all.

(15:12):
Interesting.
You know, and so they have a lotof sex because it's the only
thing holding them together.
And I'm like, well, let's let'sexpand our repertoire, shall we?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Because if something happens to sex, then what?

SPEAKER_02 (15:26):
Right.
And then some couples are likeso rigid and distant from each
other.
I'm like, hey, how about if westarted warming up and being
willing and start playing, youknow, sexually with one another
and see if that can be helpfulin the emotional connection.
I mean, who's to say?
Some people like get to theiremotions through thinking.

SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Some people get their to their emotions through
being sexual with each other.
I mean, there's no one way to dothis.
It's kind of like, how does thiswork for you?

SPEAKER_01 (16:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
Right.
But that ingredient of beingwilling.
I love you, so I'm willing.
I think is kind of one of thebest main ingredients in a
relationship.

SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
And like, and I love you enough to make you feel
safe.

SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
I do you kind of find that that safety piece is
at the core?

SPEAKER_02 (16:22):
I I really think it is.

SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (16:25):
I I had actually, which probably led me to do the
work I've done.
I had a lot of sexual traumamyself.
I was raised in a very unsafehousehold.
And then when I'm 16, um, westart going to a church.
I'm sexually assaulted by theyouth pastor.
Oh my God.
Lovely, right?

unknown (16:44):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (16:45):
And so one of the things my husband, and I just
stuff that all down.
Oh boy, we are uh-uh.

SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
Yeah, we don't talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
I'm getting married.
Wow.
This is my before life, and thisis my new life.
And the two will never touch.
So, you know, I was reallytrying to live in in like
complete disassociation from mychildhood.
And and there was good reasonfor it.
I mean, it's just a way I thinkdisassociation is isn't a mental
illness.

(17:14):
I think it's how we protectourselves.
I agree.
And it's probably pretty dangsmart.

SPEAKER_00 (17:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (17:19):
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (17:19):
Yeah.
I mean, it's effective.
It's so effective.
Until it's not effective.

SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (17:24):
And so my we had four sons, our youngest started
school, and man, when that childstarted school, it's like my
path started coming up like atidal wave.
Really?
Like a tsunami.
And I'm like, dang, I can't.
What do you think it was?

SPEAKER_00 (17:44):
What do you think it was that the that that tsunami
began?

SPEAKER_02 (17:48):
I think that I'd kept myself so busy.
You know, in my 20s, I had fourkids.
Busy, busy, busy.
And all boys.

SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
So Yeah, which is busy, busy, busy.
Busy, busy, busy.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:59):
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (18:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
And then he starts first grade.
And and you know, I'm probablylike for the first time in
basically my adult life, becauseI had my first child at 19.
I'm like, probably the firsttime in my adult life.
I had a moment to sit withmyself.
And then all this trauma startedcoming up.

(18:22):
And so, you know, thankfully,like it came up on a Saturday.

SPEAKER_01 (18:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
On a Sunday, I contacted a therapist.

SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
Never been to therapy.
I I just said, it's somebody Iknew.
I'm like, dude, I need help.
Like something's seriously wrongwith me.

SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
I don't know what.
And I've tried everything I knowto not to be okay.
Yeah.
Because you know, growing up, Ilived in a household where
socially my parents were very,they were successful socially.
My dad was like the city judge.

unknown (18:57):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
And they belonged to all the country clubs.
And my mom was, I mean, one ofmy friends said, Oh, you're I
loved your parents.
They were such socialites.
And I'm like, Yeah, everythingneeded to look perfect on the
outside.
So that's how I was trained.
And like, you don't fall apart.
And so here I am, 33 years old,and I'm falling apart.
I had cried all day one day andcould not stop.

(19:19):
Wow.
And so anyway, um, but one ofthe things back to what I was
gonna say, one of the things myhusband did for me is when we
were making love, and he couldtell if I got triggered, because
I'd just freeze.
And so he would stop and he'dsay, Hey, are you okay?
I'm like, mm-mm.
Like, can't even talk.
Like, mm-mm.

(19:41):
About right now, you're the firebreathing dragon who's gonna
hurt me.

SPEAKER_00 (19:45):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
You know what I mean?
Because you just he's a man,right?
So, you know, it just getstransferred.

SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
Right.
And well, because it's not aboutnecessarily the external, right?
It's about the system that thatnetwork inside of us that says
that this behavior is scary.

SPEAKER_02 (20:03):
Yeah.
And what had been really goodfor us, you know, for like such
a long time at that point,because we got married so young
and had been so sweet and alwaysgood.
Now all of a sudden, like I'mtriggered, I'm frozen.
And he had the awareness tonotice and say, Are you all

(20:26):
right?
And and for me as a woman, forhim to stop, ask about me, and
like he's communicating, like,hey, I'm not like other people,
men who sexually abuse you.
Because if you're not okay, I'mI'm gonna stop and care about
that.

SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
And so he made me feel so safe.
And and that was such a gift.

SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
No kidding.

SPEAKER_02 (20:51):
So that's why I think, yeah, safety.
You know, you a woman's gottafeel safe.
And we gotta understand that,like, I'll ask my husband when
we go into a parking garage, I'mlike, parking garages terrify
me.
I mean, I I just don't thinkwomen are very safe in parking
garages.
Now that's probably myperspective because I've had too

(21:13):
many stories from other womenthat you know what I mean.
And so I'm like, how do you feelin a parking garage?
He goes, Oh, I don't, I don'tthink.

SPEAKER_00 (21:20):
Don't think about it at all, right?

SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
And I'm like, oh, I have to make sure I'm paying
attention to where I'm parkingbecause I'm a little panicking.
Because I don't feel very safe.
And so I'm just like, we have tobe aware that women and children
have vulnerabilities that mostmen, not all men, but most men
don't have.

(21:42):
And so to give a woman a senseof safety, like you're safe with
me.
If there's anything I'm gonnagive to you, it's gonna be
safety.
And you give her that, and Ithink most likely she'll
probably stay open, more opensexually, because she knows
she's safe.

SPEAKER_00 (22:00):
Yeah, that's a I that that part of intimacy, I I
really believe that is at thecore.
Yeah.
I agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 (22:09):
I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I and I think that I think that men want safety as
well.

SPEAKER_02 (22:14):
I yeah, I I do too.

SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
It's just in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
It's to not be degraded.
It's the whole respect versuslove and tenderness.
I shouldn't say love, it's careand tenderness.

SPEAKER_03 (22:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Towards a woman, but it's that respect and the being
upheld as good, and I'm notgoing to degrade you.
And it's i i i I think it's kindof goes both ways.

SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (22:41):
I mean, I love this quote from a book.
Um, a woman had done a bunch ofresearch on men and sexuality so
we could understand men better.
And men repeatedly said, I wouldrather clip the hedges in the
freezing rain than make love toa woman who does not want me.
Wow.
Right?

(23:01):
Like he won and I think we'vemissed that sometimes.
Like men want to be wanted, theywant to be pursued, they want to
be know that you respect them.
Right.
You know, and you appreciatethem.
You know?

SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:18):
And man, if they have that, and then you and then
she feels loved and cherishedand protected and seen and felt,
and you know, like my husbandcan always because you know, for
years, like sexually, I couldstill like sometimes kind of

(23:38):
disappear.
You know, that's one of the waysI kept myself safe in childhood
was I would just kind of likevisualize going up into a cloud.
And so it's kind of more of ahabit.
And it'd say, Hey, did you gosomewhere?
Where are you?

SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Like staying connected.

SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
And I'm like, he could sense that about me.
Yeah.
Because I could just do it.
It was just like an automaticswitch.
And he's like, Hey, where'd yougo?
And like, oh, okay, coming backto you.
Okay, coming back to thepresent.
You know, and he would kind ofdo that for me, like, just
invite me back.
And I think the best sex is aninvitation and a great

(24:22):
negotiation if we realize thatevery conversation we have with
each other is some sort of anegotiation.
You know?

SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
So how would you how would you encourage a uh a
couple to begin the initiationand then the conversation?
Because I think that's I thinkthat's a really I that's an
interesting way to put that.
Yeah.
That's that I like that.

SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
Yeah.
Like, um, you know, like somecouples can say, hey, do you
want to have sex?
And that's their initiation andthat's a negotiation.
You know, and they both say,Yes, okay, we're on the same
page, let's go have sex.

SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
It's that simple.
For others, it's relativelycomplex.
Um, like I had clients yearsago.
I'll never, I'll never forgetthis.
Good, good people.
And she was sexually abused as ateen by a friend's dad.
And the way he would initiateand start was he'd put his hand

(25:23):
on her shoulder.
Well, guess what?

SPEAKER_00 (25:27):
That's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 (25:28):
Her husband, his initiation was to put his hand
on her shoulder.
And I'm like, listen, yeah, ifyou ever want to have good sex,
you've got to stop this.
You cannot put your hand on hershoulder.

(25:49):
You know what I mean?
You have to find a new way toinitiate.

SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (25:54):
Now it was just such a habit for him.

SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
Sure.
I mean, we think about thethings that we do, the patterns
we have in life, and how much wehave to differentiate.

SPEAKER_02 (26:02):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (26:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (26:04):
And and you know, our habits are just our habits.

SPEAKER_00 (26:07):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
Like when you brush your teeth, it's just it's just
a habit.
Yeah.
You do it without thinking.
Right.
That's how this was for him, butit's not working for her.
And so honestly, it took quite abit of repeated conversations,
yeah.
Until he finally, and even thenit was still off and on, you

(26:30):
know.
And so I'm like, guys.

SPEAKER_00 (26:33):
Did you find that in that way he was, I mean, uh you
may say duh to me, but did youfind that in that way he just
kept missing her?

SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
It's thinking about what I would like.
Yeah.
So I'm going to do it this waybecause this is how I know to do
it.

SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
But rather, it needs that what what what it sounds
like you've worked throughteaching him is you're asking
for something.
You've got to think about theother person.

SPEAKER_02 (27:03):
That's right.
It it was really, I worked withhim on other awareness.
Wow.
I would say his other awarenesswas a low.

SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:12):
And I'm like, hey, bud, we've got to build up your
other awareness, emotionalintelligence skills.
Because where it's at, it's justnot working.
It's not going to work.

SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
If you want little to bad sex all the all your
life, that's a path you're on.

SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:30):
So what are you willing to do to change that?

SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
And not to mention, which I I know you're getting
at, is you're overlooking yourwife.

SPEAKER_02 (27:38):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (27:39):
Like she's not seen nor understood, nor he'd be.

SPEAKER_02 (27:44):
He was low on empathy too.
And I'm like, we've got to raiseyour empathy.
And so I'd ask him, like, she'stalking about this sexual abuse
right now.
What are you feeling for her?

unknown (27:59):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (28:00):
You know, and I'm like, and we had to work on
tuning into some empathy thathis wife had been sexually
abused by a friend's dad.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And that's traumatic andterrifying and scary.
And anytime you put your hand onher shoulder, she freezes and
she can't help it.

(28:20):
It's her nervous systemspeaking.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (28:24):
Yeah, that got hardwired.

SPEAKER_02 (28:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
And so it's undoing the hardwire.

SPEAKER_02 (28:30):
Uh-huh.
And that's going to take sometime and patience and just a lot
of kindness.
You know, really being kindtowards each other.

SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
You know, we can't think that we're going to be
unkind to each other and thenthink we're going to have, you
know, sex that's sweet andconnecting and bonding and
attaching and meaningful.
And you know, it just doesn'twork that way.

SPEAKER_00 (28:57):
No, and it's it's it's interesting to me when when
you because what we're talkingabout is when these these the
partner is bringing in somethingthat is not brought on by the
other.

SPEAKER_03 (29:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Now they trigger it or they activate it.
Yeah.
But I'm curious as to your takeas to when there's been either
sexually overlooking, um, sexualtrauma that has been brought on
by the partner.

SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:29):
And just how you've navigated those scenarios.

SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
You know, because I've I've worked with a lot of
couples where maybe he's had asexual addiction, you know, a
lot of porn use affairs.
And it's like it's reallypainful.
Right.
And I usually start with hey,are you aware that her brain has
the same profile as a rapevictim?

(29:55):
If we were to do PET scans ofboth these females, one just was
raped and one Just found out herhusband's been cheating or
looking at a lot of porn, or youknow what I mean?
That their brains lookidentical.

unknown (30:07):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (30:08):
Yeah.
And so this is gonna take thisis gonna take a while.
And you're gonna have to decideare you ready to be a married
man, a family man, or do youwant to keep living as a frat
boy?
Because this frat boy, numberone, who taught you that, who

(30:31):
taught you that's okay, how youdo married life.

SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (30:33):
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Well, my dad, my grandpa, theyall cheated.
They all I'm like, okay, well, Iget it.
That was your example.

SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
And you living as a frat boy isn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 (30:46):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
And so I've got good news for you, buddy.
I think you're a good man,you've got potential, I've got
bad news for you.
You're really harming your wife.
And you're harming yourself.

SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
Yeah, a lot of times I think people look at
pornography and think, well, I'mnot doing any damage to anybody.

SPEAKER_03 (31:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (31:04):
You know, they they think that I mean it's my
arousal template.
Right.
Meaning it's what I look at tomake me aroused.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:12):
And it's like, yes, and and I mean, statistically,
men who view a significantamount of porn stop making love
to their wives.
And they have autosex.
I mean, they have sex withthemselves.

SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:27):
Basically.

SPEAKER_01 (31:28):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:28):
You know, and you and you are creating that
template.
This is what arouses me.
Well, what's arousing you hasnothing to do with a real
female.

SPEAKER_01 (31:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
It's all artificial.

SPEAKER_00 (31:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:41):
It's all staged.
It's all, it's not real.

SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
Well, and don't you think it takes the communication
away?
I mean, obviously because it'sby yourself.

SPEAKER_03 (31:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (31:51):
But it takes the communication away of let me
learn with you what it is thatis stimulating and exciting and
life-giving and love-giving.

SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
And and when it's, you know, when you you've
developed that template aroundquick, automatic, instantaneous,
self-fulfilling.

SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
Right, all about me.

SPEAKER_02 (32:16):
Um, then that's going to be your sexual
template.
Right.
And so then to patiently makelove to a woman who, you know,
her body's not that automatic.
Right.
She's not a porn star.
She's a one-by-one.
That's gross, right?
I mean, it's not what she's it'snot why she's with you.
Right.
And the thing is, is what whatthe research all shows, like

(32:38):
even, I mean, you know, evensome of these sites that talk
about, because we're having sucha pandemic of uh erectile
dysfunction in younger andyounger and younger men.
Right.
And what the medical communitynow understands is it it is
connected to psychological,right?

(33:00):
You know, and instantaneous, andyou've trained yourself, and now
you're having erectiledysfunction when it comes to
making love to a real woman.
You know, so the first thingthey stop say is stop viewing
porn.

SPEAKER_00 (33:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (33:13):
You know, stop.

SPEAKER_00 (33:14):
Which for a lot of these guys is or a lot of these
people because it's men andwomen.

SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
But it's easier said than done.
Right.
Because I there's usually awhole history of why pornography
was something that caught yourattention to begin with.

SPEAKER_02 (33:30):
Exactly.
90 some percent of men who havecompulsive sexual use um have
trauma.

SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (33:41):
You know, so it's like it's that self-soothing.
That's right.
You you gotta go back to becausewhat's the simplest way a boy
can soothe himself?
Well, porn and masturbation.
Right.
It's it's easy, it can besecretive.
It, you know, and it it can helpsoothe um a lot of that trauma,

(34:05):
anxiety, life is hard, familiesare dysfunctional, you know,
kids get exposed to stuff theyshould not be exposed to.
Yeah.
And so it becomes a uh it reallydoes become a way of soothing
the trauma.

SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
Right.
Yeah.
And it like you said, you get ituh I mean, I've heard of so many
stories of people either a virusthat is in a computer that
somebody hacked in and they wantto show some some really
hardcore pornography.
Yeah.
And it's in schools, or likeit's just all these different uh

(34:43):
ways of it of being exposed.
You you know I think in in m myage group, it was largely, you
know, you walk in and you finddad's you know, Playboy stash,
or you find something out in thewoods and now it's in our, you
know, they carry a their phone,yeah.
It's right here.
Yeah, in their phone.

SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
Yeah, it's right here.

SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
And it's easy to access and people show it, and
you know, it's it's it's manlyto talk about it.
It's right, you know, that'swhat we do is we we share
pictures back.

SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
It's a scoring, you know, one of my favorite
stories, because I used to do aton of sexual education,
especially, I don't know, forsome reason it was a lot of I
mean, I do both parents, but alot of moms.
Like, and I remember one, she'sa mom of four boys, and she
said, I cannot say the P word.

(35:35):
You know, and I'm like, Well,you have a lot of penises in
your house.
You better learn how to say theP word.

SPEAKER_01 (35:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
And so I'm like, I want you to go home, stand in
front of the mirror, and say theword until it becomes like nose,
ears, eyes.
You know, it's just part of thebody, right?
And so she did, and then fromthere she went on to really
educate her boys sexually, likehave really healthy,
age-appropriate conversations.
Right.

(36:00):
Answer their questions, evenwhen they don't even want to ask
them.

SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
But but they have them.

SPEAKER_02 (36:06):
Yeah.
And so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
To your point, it's taking the stigma off of it.
Yeah to to because they they'retheir brains are like a sponge.
And it's we're either gonna pourour water on top of it as
parents, or the world will willpour their water on top of it.

SPEAKER_02 (36:21):
It will.
Yeah.
And that's kind of the choice weparents have is like, do you
want the world to teach them?
Or would you rather?

unknown (36:28):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (36:28):
And so anyway, she she she and her husband did a
great job and really decided webetter do this.
Because they had had quite asordid sexual past themselves,
and they're like, we don't wantthat for our kids.
We want to do better.
So they really did.
And one of our boys went toschool, and while he was waiting
for the bus, I think he was likesecond grade.
And one of the other boys cameup and said, Hey, do you want to

(36:50):
see this?
And you know, it's like a nakedwoman or you know what I mean,
porn.
And and the boy said, No, that'sokay.
My parents told me all aboutthat.
I don't need you to show methose pictures.
And I'm like, isn't that cool?
That's kids are curious, but ifwe feel the curiosity in some
healthy ways, yeah, then theywon't be so vulnerable.

(37:10):
I'm not saying they won't stillhave some vulnerabilities.
They will.

SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
But maybe not as many.

SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (37:16):
And and we could be doing them a huge service.

SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
Well, and to your earlier point, yeah, that could
be a traumatic experience,experience, but it doesn't mean
it has to live in the body astrauma, in the sense that if
we're open and we aren't wearen't afraid to talk about
those things, that they can comehome and say, Hey, mom, you
know, Billy at the bus stopshowed me this picture.

(37:42):
Oh, okay.
Yeah, and I'm not gonna freakout about it, but it's something
that I may say, okay, yeah, whatdid you do?

SPEAKER_02 (37:51):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:51):
Talk to me about that.
Yeah, what was that like foryou?
It becomes more normal, not Idon't want to say becomes
normalized, but your response.
We can look through look at itand say, Okay, what did you do?
And we can problem solve it.

SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
Yeah.
And isn't that great?
I think the greatest gift wegive our kids is not to freak
out.
Right.
But just to we stay calm.
Yes.
And like, okay.
Yes.
Well, what was that like foryou?
And let's talk about that.
And what do you want to do nexttime?
And what do you need from me forsupport?
Right.
You know, because I want to behere for you and I know this

(38:28):
isn't easy, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (38:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:31):
Yeah.
And same with like, you know,when they they get these huge
hormonal washes.
Right.
And they don't have a prefrontalcortex to go with it.
And so, you know, we getteenagers that are all hormones,
and it's like, how do we helpthem get through that?

SPEAKER_00 (38:48):
Yeah, it's like it's a it's a all the hormone wash,
uh-huh, which is all the desire.
Oh, then they don't have thatexecutive system of saying, let
me think through thisrationally.

SPEAKER_03 (38:59):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
Because it's not formed yet.
No.
There's no executives living upthere yet.
That executive suite is uh alittle bit empty.

SPEAKER_03 (39:06):
It it really is.

SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
I had a friend or one of my old mentors from many
lifetimes ago.
Um, she was a professor, and uhone of the faculty, they were
out at like a bowling event orsome some event, and one of her
co-workers' sons was verylittle.

(39:28):
And at the bowling alley, hejust drops his pants and says,
Mom, check it out.
Look what it can do.

SPEAKER_01 (39:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
And it was like he was starting to experience
erections.

SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
And the mom was like, Wow, buddy, that's super
cool.
Yeah, but listen, we're out inpublic, and remember that's a
private part.
And so we only do this inprivate.
So let's go ahead and pull ourpants back up.
Yeah, but that's really cool,and I'm glad you showed me.
Just remember, that's to be donein private.

SPEAKER_02 (39:59):
That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
And I was like, Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 (40:01):
Yeah, that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
That was like, talk about fast on her feet.

SPEAKER_02 (40:05):
That's like the ideal response, isn't it?
Yes.
I know one of my clients had herson kind of saying things, said,
Look, mom, it does tricks.
You know, and she's like, Itdoes.
That is amazing, isn't it?
You know.

SPEAKER_00 (40:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (40:20):
I think they were at home and he just gotten out of
the bathtub.

SPEAKER_00 (40:22):
Sure, yeah.
So but again, it's just that weI I think it's the whole idea of
like taking the stigma off ofthese natural functions.
Totally.
But I also like to everythingthat you're saying is we want to
give space that that thosetricks may activate a really

(40:43):
hard system or painful systeminside of the person that's
receiving that information.

SPEAKER_02 (40:49):
Imagine that same little boy who is jerked out of
that bowling alley and gets hisspanking and is so shamed.
And and what we know is, youknow, like the way sex is
handled when we're young isoftentimes how we experience

(41:11):
that when we're older.
Right.
So if he's really shamed abouthis body and is told, your
body's dirty, that's bad, don'tever show anybody that again,
then you, you know, then you getolder and you're in a
relationship and you're like, Idon't know how to share my body,
my body body's shameful and badand dirty, and my penis is

(41:32):
wrong, and I erections are bad.
And it's like, well, it's nowonder.
You know, people have a lot,some people have a lot of sexual
stuff to work through becausethere's so much shame.
And they were told that theirbodies are so dirty and bad.

SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (41:50):
And then to want to share that openly and freely is
like, oh, there's a there's ahuge gap.

SPEAKER_00 (41:57):
Right.
I think in religious circles,yes, one of the most difficult
things that I've seen in mypractice is when you tell, like,
no, no, no, that's wrong, that'swrong, that's wrong.
And then you get married, and iton the wedding night, all of a
sudden, this wrong activity isnow expected.

SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
And it's like the mind bend that that takes,
especially for a lot of womenthat I that I've heard from,
that it's I don't know how to gofrom this being wrong and only
the you know the bad girls doit, and only, you know, that it
there's a there's a judgmentassigned to it.

SPEAKER_03 (42:39):
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
And you know, when when my kids were growing, we're
really little, we went, we wewent to uh a sexual education
evening.
And this this woman was I Iloved what she said.
It's like start talking to yourkids early about sex, start
biologically, then move through,you know, the the the the

(43:02):
emotional part, all of that, andfor its design.

SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
And I remember one of my kids asking me, okay, dad,
I know what's deep inside of aman, deep inside a woman, comes
together to make a baby.
How exactly does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 (43:14):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
And I remember like almost driving off the road and
thinking, oh my God, how do Iexplain this?

SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:22):
We walked through the I walked through the
biological explanation and theysat for a moment and they were
like, that is gross.

SPEAKER_02 (43:30):
Uh-huh.
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (43:32):
And thank God this course preloaded me for that
answer.

SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:37):
And I said, you know what?
That is the appropriate answer.

SPEAKER_01 (43:41):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (43:42):
Because it is intended for adults.
Yeah.
It is not intended for children.
That's right.
So you're right on target.
At some point in your life, whenyou are an adult, you'll think
it's really cool.
I hope, for you.
And they were like, cool.
Okay.
And we moved on.

SPEAKER_02 (44:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
And I just think that it's that space of like
what you're saying is like,let's let's let it be normalized
instead of something that sogoing back to the couples, yeah.
When you have a couple, and I'mwondering if you've treated some
of these, I'm certain you have,of where the husband has
demanded or or over demandedsex, overlooked his wife, and

(44:26):
said, I really don't care whatyou think.
This is my right.

SPEAKER_03 (44:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
You're going to give this to me.

SPEAKER_03 (44:32):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (44:33):
And it it tends to break.

SPEAKER_03 (44:35):
Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_00 (44:36):
And what I've seen happen is that the wife says, No
more for you.

SPEAKER_03 (44:40):
No more.
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
Have you had success walking them back toward one
another?

SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
You know, I I have had some, some not, some yes.
Yeah.
You know, and just, you know, Iprobably start with, um, you
know, figuring out, is thissomething he got taught?

SPEAKER_01 (45:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:02):
You know, or or is he a jerk?
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 (45:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
And so if he's it kind of more of an entitled
jerk, I'll start with you can beyou can be right in what you
think and never have sex againfor the rest of your life.
What do you want?
Do you want to be right or doyou want to have sex?

SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
Right.
Yeah, that that makes perfectsense.

SPEAKER_02 (45:25):
And are you gonna make this a power play or are
you gonna learn how to sharepower?

SPEAKER_01 (45:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:29):
Because no woman wants to have sex with man who
he has all the power becauseshe's not gonna feel safe.
Right.
This is about mutuality.
And if you got this idea fromthe Bible, let me show you where
that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 (45:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (45:41):
Because, you know, the Bible talks about mutuality.
It's it's all about mutuality.
Right.
There's no standing up for yourrights.

SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
It's like, so I mean, if you got this from the
Bible, dude, let me show youwhere that's not true.
Because Paul's very specific.

SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:00):
You know.

SPEAKER_00 (46:01):
Do you do you find that and and so I I've had a
number of scenarios where theand it's typically the male, the
husband, and it's typically himoverpowering some of its
personality, some of its trauma.
And I would say, I would saymostly it's all been some sort

(46:24):
of either it's little T traumaor big T trauma on his part,
where he is just more of adomineering type personality.
And I think we all come intothis world with a very specific
personality, yeah, and we eitherallow it to work for us or we
allow it to work against us.

SPEAKER_03 (46:42):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (46:42):
And there are gonna be people who are just a little
more domineering, and and thatthat's part of their
personality, and that can beused for good.
That's right, but that tends tobe the case, and they're like,
Okay, I see it.
Yeah, now let's go have sexagain.

SPEAKER_03 (46:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (46:58):
And she says, No.

SPEAKER_02 (47:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So I try to get him to the placewhere he can ask her, hey, what
would it take on my part to helpyou be open and willing with me
again?
What would need to happen here?
And talk to him about, hey,there are appropriate places for

(47:20):
you to be dominant.
There are appropriate places foryou to be tough.
And then there's appropriateplaces for you to be tender, and
you've misappropriated that.

SPEAKER_01 (47:30):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (47:31):
Like, yeah, go out and boss everybody around.
You own a big old company, bossgo boss everybody around.
That's if that's what you wantto do, go do it.
Go take dominance in the market.
Go exert yourself where it'sappropriate.
But in this relationship, thisis not working for you.
And so, what do you want?
I always ask people, like, whatdo you want?

unknown (47:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (47:53):
You want to be right, you want to be married.
You want to be dominant, youwant to have shared sex.

SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
You know the funny thing that I find with that,
because I I wholeheartedly agreewith you, is I find that a lot
of those guys will say, Well, Iwant her to fill in the blank.
I want her to have sex with me.
Like, I want her to be okay withit.
I want her to change.

SPEAKER_02 (48:15):
You want her to initiate, maybe?
You want her to have some sharedsexual power?
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (48:20):
But the crazy, well, crazy.
The interesting thing that Ifind in that is it's like I
think what we're learning here,friend, is you don't get to
determine what she does.

SPEAKER_03 (48:32):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (48:33):
And I think that's that part of letting go of
control, yeah, or what seemslike control to her over her, or
that I don't want to say it'sletting go of influence over the
environment, but it's letting goof the demands that you must do
it this way.
Because it's a it's it's such abalancing act, right?
That she has to figure out howto be more um outspoken.

(48:58):
He has to figure out how to howto receive.
She has to figure out how togive, he has to figure out how
to receive.

SPEAKER_02 (49:03):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (49:03):
And it's like that balance.

SPEAKER_02 (49:05):
That's right.
It's a constant.
My husband and I have beenmarried for 51 years.
We had a sexual conversation onSaturday.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
I mean, it's a constantrenegotiation, it's a constant,
you know, we change, we age,somebody has a baby, somebody's
having stress at work,somebody's not feeling.

(49:26):
I mean, you you have to havethese constant renegotiations
with the goal in mind that Iwant this to be great for you,
and you want this to be greatfor me.
And so what's it gonna take?
Right.
And so it's constantly havingconversations about that.
And I think shared power issignificant.

(49:47):
Yeah.
How are we going to share poweras male and female in this
relationship or any of ourrelationships?
How are we going to share power?
Because if one of you has allthe power, it is not going to
work.

SPEAKER_00 (50:01):
Right.
Because it's a very, it's themost intimate of the most
intimate space.
And if I feel like I'm, youknow, if if one partner feels
like they're always one down,yeah.
It's like, how do you come tothat being willing to give
yourself openly?

SPEAKER_02 (50:17):
That's right.
And so I always work withcouples.
If one comes in who's one up,one's down.
I work on giving that one who'sone down a hand up, and the one
who's up here a hand down.
It's like, hey, we all need tobe right here.

SPEAKER_01 (50:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:30):
None of us have this right.
We've all got things to learn.
And and here's the thing nobodywhatever we have to do, we don't
want to do.

SPEAKER_00 (50:43):
It's a really good point.

SPEAKER_02 (50:44):
Right.
When I'm thinking, like, I don'twant to empty the dishwasher.
I'm like, but do you want aclean kitchen?
I'm like, I do.
Okay, I'm gonna empty thedishwasher.
Because I don't have to do it.
I could choose not to, but thenmy kitchen's gonna get really
messy.

SPEAKER_01 (50:56):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (50:57):
So I want to, so I'm I'm choosing to.
And it's the same with sex.
Like if somebody's demanding,though the worst thing you can
do for your sex life is getdemanding and then to pout when
you don't get it.
Right.
Like those are the worstingredients.

SPEAKER_01 (51:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:14):
If your goal is to have a healthy, vi healthy,
vibrant, exciting, erotic,playful sex life, yeah, then
you're gonna have to give updemand and pouting and just
learn some new skills.

SPEAKER_00 (51:32):
That's in and when you've set a pattern of demand
and pout, undoing that patterntakes a lot.

SPEAKER_02 (51:42):
It does.

SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
Because now you have a partner that has felt all the
feelings that that that r thatpartner receiving all of that
feels manipulated, cajoled, allthose things.

SPEAKER_03 (51:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (51:57):
And the difficulty I find is if that partner is
unwilling to move beyond that,and who has shut the door to
that and said, Nope, I'm notwilling.

SPEAKER_02 (52:08):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (52:09):
There's not a whole lot that can be done because
this is a it's it's a give and atake.

SPEAKER_02 (52:15):
Yeah, it really is.
And so, and plus, I thinkcouples have set up a
parent-child dynamic.
So let's say if he's beingdominant, then he comes across,
I'm the parent, I'm the boss,you do what I say.
So then this other one has aone-down child experience.
Well, parent-child sex doesn'twork, it's gross, it's

(52:36):
disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 (52:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (52:38):
And then what happens if then he gets super
pouty, then she mightoccasionally like, okay, I'll be
the parent and take care of thelittle boy.

SPEAKER_01 (52:46):
Yeah, and that's the thing.
And that too is disgusting andgross.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (52:49):
And so they're never having the kind of sex they were
meant to share as two adultswilling and inviting, and like,
yes, I want you.
Right?
Like this is fun and good.

SPEAKER_00 (53:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (53:05):
It's not something that we have to do.

SPEAKER_00 (53:08):
Yeah, it's a mutual needs meeting.

SPEAKER_02 (53:10):
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (53:11):
Yeah.
So how would you so so when youthink about educating people?
What what are the things thatyou like, how do you walk
through that?

SPEAKER_02 (53:20):
Yeah.
Well, it depends.
Like, I've had some women likecome in and like, I'm here
because I don't like sex, and myhusband's always been really sad
about it, and we fought aboutit, and he'd like more sex.
And so I just started exploringthose dynamics.
With some, it's like she had atotal lack of any sexual

(53:44):
education.
And so did he.
So they've never had pleasantsex.
Right.
Like they're unaware that sheneeds 20 minutes of foreplay
before having intercourse.
Yeah.
And so intercourse has mostlybeen uncomfortable.
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (54:01):
Yeah.
And why would you do yeah?

SPEAKER_02 (54:03):
Why?
And so, right, why would shewant to do something that has
always been uncomfortable?

SPEAKER_00 (54:08):
Right.
Why would you initiatediscomfort?
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (54:11):
You avoid.

SPEAKER_00 (54:11):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (54:12):
Like, oh no, I don't really want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (54:14):
Right.
And so just giving her sexualeducation of like, you need
foreplay.
It usually starts with touchingand caressing and kissing and,
you know, stimulating of breastsand then clitoris.
Are you aware that you have aclitoris?
No, it's clitoris.

SPEAKER_01 (54:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (54:31):
Right?
You know, and total unawarenessof the vulva.
And, you know, so just byeducating, oh my gosh.
Like I saw her probably 20 yearsago.
They still will like like emailme and say, okay, you're still

(54:52):
our hero.
We, we have sex, you know, everyMonday and Thursday, and we're
the happiest people on theplanet.
Wow.
You know?
Yeah.
And her husband's like, thankyou, thank you, thank you.
And I'm like, you know, just soI will, I'll give them some
books, you know, like I want youguys to read this and talk about
it so you can develop a sexuallanguage.

SPEAKER_00 (55:13):
I I love that you start there, which is a
self-awareness.

SPEAKER_02 (55:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:17):
It's knowing, do you know that these are parts of
you?
Do you know that this is thatthat this can be good, like this
can bring pleasure, that likethat sense of self-awareness,
right?
And then others' awareness of doyou know that this your partner
has this part and what it whatit's for and that's right, the
function and like how to movethrough this together.

SPEAKER_02 (55:39):
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
Like, I think it's so amazingthe way females are created
because you know, we think youthink about we have a clitoris
that has no other purpose.
Its only purpose is forpleasure.

SPEAKER_01 (55:53):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (55:54):
For female pleasure.
And I'm like, I think that sayssomething.
Like, you know, because therecan be these ideas like, well,
sex is a man's pleasure and awoman's duty.
Well, that sucks.

SPEAKER_01 (56:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:06):
But if you look at creation, it's totally refuted.
Like, no, no, no, no, no.
You know, our creator wasthinking about us girls too.
And like, no, I I even even thepenis can't say that.
Like it's very, veryutilitarian.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (56:22):
That's funny.

SPEAKER_02 (56:24):
But the clerics can't say that, like, you know,
right?
And I'm like, well, that saysjust if we're paying attention
to how our bodies are made.

SPEAKER_01 (56:34):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (56:35):
And like, oh, this is saying a lot.
Right.
And I think, you know, sometimeswe have this idea.
I don't know if it's stillaround or there's just an old
idea.
I'm old, so maybe I have oldideas.
But this idea that um, you know,males are more encouraged to sow
their wild oats so they knowmore about sex.

(56:56):
And that's such a falseassumption.
Like actually, a man doesn'tknow anything about your body.
He may have had sex with a lotof other women, but that doesn't
mean he knows anything aboutyour body.

SPEAKER_00 (57:09):
And I think that I think now everyone's encouraged
to sow their oats.

SPEAKER_02 (57:14):
Yeah.
And I think now that's true.

SPEAKER_00 (57:16):
I think now, though, it's are we sexually compatible?

SPEAKER_02 (57:20):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (57:20):
And it's like compatibility is something
that's developed over time.

SPEAKER_02 (57:24):
It's learned.

SPEAKER_00 (57:24):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (57:25):
It's learned.
It's it's meant to be playedwith and experimented with.
And what do you like?
And like if I have couples thatreally can't talk about sex, I'm
like, okay, how about if youwent on a walk or a drive and
you're not looking at each otherand you ask each other, well,
what do you like?
Well, what do you like?
What's nice for you?
Well, what turns you off?
Well, what turns you on?

(57:46):
You know what I mean?
And so it's it's learning andthen teaching.
You know, that's right.
It's like, well, if I can't talkabout sex, how am I gonna teach
him?
I'm like, you're right, that isa problem.

SPEAKER_00 (57:58):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (57:59):
We're gonna have to learn how to talk about this,
right?
You know, and you're gonna haveto figure out your own body.

SPEAKER_00 (58:05):
And I live again, I love that it starts with
understanding you first.
Because my big question andeverything is where am I in
this?

SPEAKER_01 (58:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:13):
Not selfishly, no self-awareness.
And it's a place ofunderstanding.
Yeah, wait, I have to know whereI am to make my way toward what
it is that I'm trying to do orwhere I'm trying to go.

SPEAKER_01 (58:25):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (58:25):
And until I understand I am here and I want
to be there, this is the pathwayto get there.

SPEAKER_03 (58:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:31):
And it's the same thing with sex.
I I just love how that principlerings true that sex is I a lot
of times I hear people say, Oh,it's a barometer for the
relationship.
I don't know that I fully agreewith that.
And I don't, I I from some ofour conversations, I don't know
that you fully agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 (58:50):
I yeah, not fully.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:51):
But I think that it is an indicator.

SPEAKER_02 (58:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:55):
But like you said, that there's couples who don't
like each other.
I mean, they tolerate eachother, and the only thing they
connect on is sex.
And it's like their sex life isgreat according to them.

SPEAKER_02 (59:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (59:05):
But they're missing all the intimacy and the
connection in other ways.

SPEAKER_01 (59:08):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (59:09):
So yeah, I I just I think that that principle and
truth of like I have to knowwhere I am to then know how to
work my way toward where youare.

SPEAKER_02 (59:17):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (59:18):
And I love that that's where you start.

SPEAKER_02 (59:20):
Well, you know, just this idea that we're body, soul,
spirit, and that we can'tseparate, we're not meant to
separate one from another.
And so this idea of what are wedoing with our bodies, you know,
number one, I mean, that's agreat question for all of us.
Like, how are you nurturing andcaring your own body?

(59:40):
And I do think, you know, whenit comes to having really good
sex, like sometimes, especiallyif like women are in the ages of
having babies and there's lotsof kids and she's just like
giving so much every day, andmaybe he is too, then it's like,
oh, sex is meant to be kind ofselfishly unselfish.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:00):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:00):
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:01):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:01):
Where like uh when people climax, it totally it's
they go inside of their ownbodies and all of a sudden it's
all about them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:08):
And it's like, that's right, and good for you.
You know, you know what I mean?
And even though it's a sharedexperience, you're still, you
know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:15):
It's it's still your experience and it's it's the I
think it's the sort of thequintessential interpersonal
play.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:23):
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:24):
In that it's my experience and I'm sharing it
with you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:27):
And it's a shared experience with you.
And like also when you have thatattitude, like then you you
receive pleasure from yourpartner's pleasure.
You know what I mean?
You have your pleasure and youhave their pleasure, and and
it's all this mutuality, and itjust it doubles your pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:45):
Right.
Yeah.
And then it's really aboutbonding and attachment and
closeness, you know, and such asweetness that was meant to be
there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:55):
I agree.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:58):
That makes sense.
And I think that the educationpart is so critical.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:02):
Huge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:03):
Know your body, know your partner's body.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:06):
It's also about uh honoring each other.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:11):
And if you get to a gridlock, it's truly from what
I'm hearing you say, it's trulyworking out.
How do we get through thistogether?

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:20):
That's is when there's that attitude, like
honestly, some of the couples,some of my favorite couples I've
worked with are couples who havecome in with some really hard
things, but they were willing towork it through together.
Right.

(01:01:40):
Without judgments, withoutblame, without shame.
And like we're just in thistogether.
How can we keep moving towardssolutions?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:51):
And man, when they do that, that is good.
That is when you get some.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:57):
That's when you get the movement there.
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:59):
It's like they feel like power couples, you know.
I'm like, oh, that's so great.
You know?
And the sad thing is, like,gosh, I've heard stories of
like, you mentioned thisearlier, of like people who are
really naive.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:13):
And have had no, just were taught no, no, no, no,
bad, bad, bad, bad, don't,don't, don't.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:19):
And then they get married, and like honeymoons end
up being traumatic.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:24):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:25):
And then some of those couples, 30 years later,
they still haven't recovered.
Right.
And it just makes me so sad.
So I love, um, I didpostgraduate work in human
sexuality.
And one of the things I stilluse it to this day, it's kind of
like the model I work from.
It was called DECA.
It's dialogue, educate, coach,refer.

(01:02:48):
So, you know, first we juststart dialoguing.
Well, tell me about your sexuallife.
How is it?
What's worked?
What it hasn't worked, what'sbeen pleasurable, what's totally
not pleasurable, what causesfriction, you know, where do you
feel sad?
Has there been any trauma weneed to work through?
You know, so we just have thatdialogue and start discovering.

(01:03:11):
And then, and then it depends onwhat the answers to that are,
then the amount of education.
Some need a boatload ofeducation, right?
Have had none, still don't evenknow how their bodies sexually
work.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:24):
And and some are pretty well educated.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:28):
Some have been educated by porn.
I don't think porn is uh a goodeducator.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:34):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:34):
And as a matter of fact, I've had some like younger
people, like their education wasporn, and they're like, oh, I I
never want to have sex withanother person.
That looks terrifying andviolent.
And I'm like, oh man, I'm sorry.
So then we we do the education,maybe re-educate or uneducate
and re-educate.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:53):
And then do some coaching around now, how can we
make this work?
And then for some, like for thefemale, if there's been sexual
pain, I'll refer her to a pelvicfloor specialist.
Yeah, you know, and just like,okay, what do we need to do to
get the help we need?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:12):
Yeah, because you can't overlook those things.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:15):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:16):
And it's just a more broad conversation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:18):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:19):
I love that.
I think that's so helpfulbecause it's honoring to both
sides.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:24):
You know, or to both partners, I should say.
I just I I want to thank you forthe courage.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:32):
Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:34):
For the openness and the willingness to step into
this arena and help reclaim itfor such a beautiful and healthy
purpose.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:46):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:46):
I just love the work you do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:48):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
Sometimes it's been reallygreat, and and people can be so
appreciative.
And then sometimes it's beenreally hard.
Oh, I can imagine.
And like, I want to be done withit.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:01):
You know what I mean?
Like, oh, I can't do thatanymore.
And then, but my desire, I mean,truthfully, my desire is for
every couple to have a healthy,happy, wonderful sex life
together.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:17):
And to know you're gonna have times where it's not
that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:21):
Sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:21):
And that's okay.
Work your way.
They say right now, 60% ofcouples are having some sort of
a sexual issue.
So if you are, you're normal.
If you're not, you will.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:32):
Right.
It's what you do with it whenyou get there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:36):
That's so true.
Yeah.
That's so true.
And it can build a lot of likethe conversation my husband and
I had the other day.
Like, you know, we're aging.
So things don't always work theway they used to.
Right.
And so I could just sit with mydarling man and say to him, Hey,
baby, I love you.
Like, I didn't marry you.

(01:05:58):
Like I've always said, becausemy husband shaves his head kind
of like you do.
Honey, I told you when I marriedyou I wasn't marrying you for
your hair.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:08):
Like you are so much more because men can get the
idea that, and they've been toldyou're supposed to perform.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:15):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:16):
You know?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:16):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:16):
And I'm like, honey, I love you.
I love all of you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:22):
You know, and there's And that's such a
beautiful message to receive.
And it's like you guys have beensaying that from the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:30):
He said that to you as that struggle.
Yeah.
You get to say that back to him.
That's right.
And it's like it pendulates.
And it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:39):
Our relationship, yes, we have sweet and great sex
together.
And most importantly, is yourpersonhood to me and mine to
you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:49):
And if we keep that first, then other things, as
long as we're keeping thedialogue going.
Yeah.
It's such a gift.
It's when we don't talk thatthings get weird.
You know, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:03):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here today.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:06):
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:08):
And talking about such a topic as this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:10):
That's right.
Well, my joy.
Thank you for inviting me.
Yeah.
I appreciate the work you do.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So thanks for having me.