May 6, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long and Dr. Don Hebbard explore the emotional complexity of dating again: after divorce, loss, or long seasons of singleness. They look beyond expectations to offer honest insights, practical advice, and hope for meaningful connection in a new chapter.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and in thisepisode I'm joined by Dr Don
Hebert, one of our counselorshere at Restoration.
Together we're talking aboutsomething many people face but
few talk about honestly, andthat's dating.
Again, in this conversation, wego beyond the surface and
(00:26):
explore the unexpected emotionallayers, challenges and
opportunities that come withreentering the dating world
later in life or after loss.
Whether you're navigating thisseason yourself or supporting
someone who is, this episodeoffers wisdom, encouragement and
(00:48):
real insight.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Welcome, don, dr Don Hebert, toRestoration Beyond the Couch.
I am so excited you're with ustoday.
You are a man of so manytalents and the reason why we're
here today is to talk aboutyour latest book called Rematch.
(01:13):
You can see here Love inExtended Adulthood and what a
great, what a treasure of a book.
So I won't go into that yet,but I just want to say welcome
and thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thanks, lee.
It's good to be with you.
I miss being with you everyweek and now that I'm in Houston
I have to do this long distanceevery once in a while.
We have to get our fix longdistance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
That's right.
I know you had the great, I hadthe great pleasure and joy of
getting to be with you everyweek.
And now it's catch as catch can.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, yeah, I went off and ran away from Fort Worth
and ran to the other side ofthe state.
But there you go.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
But for a good reason right.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's a very good reason, so
that's okay, yeah reason.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
So that's, that's okay.
Yeah, so so would you?
Would you catch our listenersup?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
on why you ran away to Houston.
Yeah, sure Cause it's.
You know, ties into the book sowell.
After after being single againfor shoot 20 years, I guess Lisa
and I met on match.
She's here in Houston.
I was up in Dallas and wecommuted, dated, we
long-distance dated for aboutthree years and then we got
(02:35):
married last October.
And because I teach and a lotof my work's online, it made
more sense for me to come and alot of my work's online, it made
more sense for me to come toHouston and I'm selling my place
up in Dallas right now and soI'm in a whole new restructuring
of a whole new life, which iskind of interesting to be doing.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, and it makes me wonder is she a lot of the
inspiration behind this book?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, you know, the book has been a project for a
number of years.
When I was going through thispretty early on, one of my
mentors, who you'd heard me talka lot about, james Cale Cale
told me he said you need to keepnotes on this because he said
at some point in time you know,as a marriage and family person
(03:26):
going through all this, you mayhave some things you want to
write about.
And I thought, oh yeah, I don'tknow about that, but anyway.
So I started taking notes andjournals and stuff.
You know, first year into thisthing and you know it just
shoved him aside and juststarted collecting that stuff.
And then about oh, probablyabout a year into dating Lisa
(03:52):
and our thing was really comingtogether nicely Cale came back
to me and he said OK, you needto get your typewriter out, it's
time to get after that thing.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So I love it.
Um, I love that.
So.
So when you found yourselfnewly single again 20 something
years ago, he prompted you tokeep notes of what it was like
(04:32):
to date as a therapist Yep, yep,what, uh, and what?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
what was some?
What was that experience like?
I mean just thinking it allback through the seminars, this
is our world.
And we think I thought I knewwhat I was walking into.
And I say in the first chapterI thought, well, I'll just, I'll
go out, I'll date a little bit,I'll meet a nice lady and, you
(04:57):
know, start life over again.
And that was the mostridiculous thought that ever
went through my brain, becausewe're living through such a
shift in the way in which peoplemeet and fall in love and do
that whole thing that for me itwas such a discovery that what I
had learned in practice was notsome of it was going to work
(05:21):
and then some of it I was goingto have to throw out because
it's all so new.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
What were some of those tensions that you saw?
Because you're right, we are ina really big shift in how we
meet people, like the cultureshift that is upon us, like it
or not.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Right, yeah.
Well, one of the big shifts ofcourse it's the reason I call it
, you know finding love andextended adulthood is that when
you're like I was 47 when Istarted this that I used back in
(06:01):
college in my 20s, to meet anddate.
You know, back then I was anold guy.
You called up the dorm.
There was one phone on the dormhall you called in for you know
Mary in room 232.
They'd scream her name out andthen you'd hope you didn't hear
(06:23):
a cackle of laughing from othergirls in their rooms and they'd
come down to the phone.
You had 20 girls sharing onephone and it was all about
propinquity.
You dated and you mated peoplethat you were around and you did
that within that mid-20s,late-20s period of time and you
(06:45):
really locked in to all thosemajor commitments who you're
going to be married to, whereyou're going to live, what your
occupation was.
All that stuff got startedearly on.
Well, nowadays all that stuff'sgetting shoved back a decade.
People are doing that in their30s and now people in their 50s
(07:05):
and 60s and 70s are dating andthey have these old templates of
how they used to date back intheir 20s and those don't work
when you're 50 or 60 or 70 yearsold.
You're going to do it, but it'sgoing to be done in a whole
different way.
I don't know.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
It makes perfect sense, because the interesting
thing there is, like when you'retalking about you know, you
call up to the dorm and you askfor a marry in room two or
whatever, you have all these.
You're dating in front of a lotof people, oh yeah.
And now, with everything well,not everything, but most things
being online and very siloedit's you don't date out in front
(07:49):
of a big community.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, that's exactly right and it's a great
observation.
You're very siloed.
It's a very honestly, it's avery lonely kind of endeavor,
which is why I went and got some.
I called them wingmen andwingwomen to make sure I wasn't
crazy sometimes.
But yeah, it's a very lonelyand that's why a lot of people
(08:13):
get real discouraged with it isbecause you get ghosted, you get
lied to, you get betrayed, allthat other stuff goes on, or
there's fake, you know profilesand whatever, and you're kind of
doing it alone and you go.
This is too crazy.
I, you know I I can't do this.
And so people have to kind ofdevelop that alligator hide and
and kind of you know, toughen upa little bit and be able to
(08:36):
pull it off.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
That does seem like it is a theme of of date.
I think it's a theme of datingin general.
Now, because I hear this fromthe folks I work with in their,
you know, teens, 20s, you know,30s and up, it's that it does
seem like it's a big culturalshift.
I don't, I'm not, I don't knowthat I've thought about the fact
(09:00):
that it's a big cultural shiftfor people 40s and up or if it's
just across the board, but it'simpacting 40s and up, maybe I
should say late 40s and up,because we didn't grow up with,
I mean, I remember, when youknow, the first cell phone, I
didn't have a real cell phoneuntil I was, you know, married
(09:24):
and you know you got dial upinternet in college, I mean,
where you know you dial on andit makes this horrible noise and
then squeaks and squawks andthen finally it connects and you
might be able to hack out anemail and then it might take a
minute if you had a photo toattach to it.
Now it's like, you know, I mean, kids are in restaurants
(09:45):
dialing up, you know, all typesof things, sending all types of
files, and it just goes likethat.
You know, I'm wondering do youthink that there's like, do you
think that there's an?
It was an.
It's a technology thing.
Do you think it's a culturalthing?
Do you think it's all of theabove?
Yeah, it's a great observation,it's a great question, and yeah
, I think it's a cultural thing.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Do you think it's all of the above?
Yeah, it's a great observation,it's a great question and, yeah
, I think it's all of the above.
And I think for the you know,the just pick a number, the 50s
and up, that did not grow up, uh, maybe as technology driven and
comfortable with that there's,there's the whole.
(10:24):
You know, I'm a new singleperson, either widowed or
divorced or whatever, and I'mtrying to figure out how, to
date, at this point in time, youknow, what do I do, what do I
say, how do I present myself?
What am I looking for?
All of those questions, whatare those essentials?
(10:44):
And then there's navigating,the technology part of it, which
is like, okay, what pictures doI put up?
How do I describe myself?
I probably wrote 50, 75different versions of profiles
through the years short, long,cute, funny, serious, you name
(11:05):
it, kind of thing.
And you're trying to navigate.
And then the differentplatforms are going to have
different procedures that youhave to follow, you know, to
match up with some people.
You know, early on eHarmonythey had these crazy eight
stages of questions you wentthrough that were just brutal
(11:26):
because they were soself-revealing early on and
thankfully they got rid of thatstuff.
And then you got otherplatforms like Match, where
you're basically, you know, outthere doing all your picking and
sorting and profiling yourself,and so for those older foes,
it's the how do I date at thispoint in time?
(11:48):
And then how do I not look likeI'm stupid online, trying to do
this at the same time and thennot get paired up with somebody?
That's not somebody ofcharacter that I would want to
go out with, because everybody'sheard the horror stories oh,
have we heard the horror stories?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
yeah, and it's interesting because, yeah,
you're, you're, you're so spoton.
I was listening to a bodylanguage expert who was talking
about you know how to how topick the best online profile
picture and I just, oh my gosh,like the granular nature of what
we can get into Now.
(12:32):
She was doing a phenomenal job,she had such great ideas and
feedbacks and thoughts, but, wow, it seemed overwhelming.
Yeah, now to think, oh, youneed a picture with a half tilt
and a smile and a don't smilewith your teeth.
Or if you're wanting to conveythis, convey.
And it's like, oh my gosh, Idon't, how would you know what
to convey?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, yeah, it just it can be absolutely
overwhelming and, uh, what Iended up looking for?
Uh, after you know, a long timeof being online dating and
whatever, and I actually likedit, I mean.
I'm a proponent of it, I'm infavor of it for a number of
reasons, but I would look for asense of authenticity coming
(13:20):
through in the way the personwrote, in the way way they would
text and the way they wouldpresent themselves.
If they just seemed basicallyhonest, if there was a sense of
humor in there and realauthenticity, if it is a real
person, they seem to be tryinghonestly to meet somebody and go
out, then that would be what Iwould look for.
More than that, you know, real,getting into the details of
(13:42):
things.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, that makes sense, and I would imagine it's
difficult to know if there'sauthenticity without giving it
some space and time.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
With this pared-out authenticity.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, and that was.
You were talking aboutsurprises.
One of the things I learnedthrough the years was that the
quick startups there were peopleout there doing they're just in
a hurry and you know you'd hearfrom them.
You know you'd get fivemessages in one day.
They want to be meeting youknow, in two days or three days
(14:19):
and then meet again.
It was just boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
Meet again, it was just boom,boom, boom, boom, boom.
And invariably those were theones that would drop off the end
of the earth and you'd neverhear anything from them, because
they're onto the next, they'reonto the next match and they'd
wear you out too.
So when, to your point, whenyou'd get somebody who had a
(14:40):
sense of timing and they seem tobe be within themselves, they
weren't rushing as much, thatwas usually a pretty good sign.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
That makes good sense .
Um, yeah, it makes me thinkabout too, like when you're,
when you have, when you findsomebody who's sounds like to me
you're talking about speeddating, like there's trying to
speed through the process.
Yeah, there's so many, there'sthe potential of so many
complexities of of a uh, kids,career, extended family that all
(15:22):
still want and need yourattention and aren't willing to
give that up and shouldn't bewilling to give that up, maybe
to uh, to you going out andfinding a new mate.
What advice do you have and howdo you address that?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, and that's a great observation and one of the
things I do.
You mentioned that there'ssteps in the book kind of toward
the end of that process.
I asked you know, how is thisaffecting your decision making?
How is this affecting yourextended family?
What's the overall impact ofthis relationship on your entire
(16:01):
life?
And you know as well as I doyou've done enough therapy to
know that when you're matched upwith somebody who's got some
pretty serious problems, thatwhen you're matched up with
somebody who's got some prettyserious problems, they're going
to want to constrict and controlyour life and your
relationships and the peopleyou're around and they're going
to want to be more controllingand have your attention.
(16:22):
And if you're dealing withsomeone who's healthier, they're
going to be a better partner.
They're going to incorporateyour life into their life.
And, of course, when you're 50or 60, those are bigger lives to
put together than what it iswhen you're 20 years old,
because you've got kids,grandkids or you know like we
(16:43):
had separate towns and big livesboth places.
And so, yeah to your point,when you've got somebody, you've
got somebody, that's and ithappens real subtly you get
certain personalities that willvery subtly cut off their
partner's relationships withtheir kids and with family
(17:06):
members and with people theyplayed racquetball with, and
suddenly it's just down to thosetwo people.
Well, that's usually a prettybad sign.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, cause it's.
It's like you said, therethere's a further siloing that
you away from this, because thething that I think is really
beautiful about yours and Lisa'srelationship is that I know she
has been woven into your circleand I know you've been woven
(17:37):
into hers, and so, rather thanpairing out what you previously
had, it's like you guys havejoined a way bigger support
network, a way bigger supportnetwork.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
It's like you guys have had this wonderful
multiplication here.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Cale made the comment early on.
He said, talking about me, hesaid you do work really well,
but you need to marry some fun.
And I did.
Lisa's just a lot of fun andthat was one of the reasons why
(18:19):
I wanted to come to Houston.
I lived in Dallas since 68.
I lived other places, butDallas was home since 68.
Her whole social network downhere is so rich and interesting
and varied and I've picked up awhole new aspect to my life
(18:41):
that's way beyond drumming andworking all the time, which is
all I did, and so, yeah, andthen she, her family's all gone,
they've all passed, and so youknow, coming in and and she just
picked up with my kids rightaway and she texts them and
talks to them as much as I do.
(19:02):
And so it was.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
It was a nice blending of those things and we
both, we both have benefitedfrom that, which is such an
immense blessing, not just toyou but to your extended crew
and to hers, because it's adovetailing in of both of you
and you guys both get to beblessings to all of that, which
(19:27):
is a really sweet place to be ofthat, which is a really sweet
place to be.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, and you know it's interesting because I was
talking with Dr Margaret Penderand you know Margaret from
Amberton Days and we both loveher dearly LMFT and she made the
comment a number of years agoto me about this dating thing.
She said, you know, don, shesaid when it works and when it's
(19:55):
right, you just don't have towork at it that hard, it just
comes together and it fits in anice way.
You have to, obviously,relationships all work, but she
said there's a coming togetherand a blending there that you're
not having to just force.
And I think she was exactlyright.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I think she is too.
And it's funny because peoplesay to me I've been with my wife
for 28 or 29 years.
People say, oh, marriage ishard work.
I'm like, yeah, oh, is it?
Because it's like you're saying.
It's like when you find theperson that you're compatible
with, there's so much synergythere that you know it is work.
(20:37):
We do work at our marriage, butwhen work is fun, it feels less
like work and more enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And I think that's a good time.
Yeah, and I think one of thenot to be negative at all, but I
think one of the discouragingthings about dating in this
second half of life is you dohave to go through usually a
number of people to date tofinally find that one where it
does work.
And I would talk to a lot ofpeople who dated that were my
(21:11):
age and they would sayrepeatedly I'm going to keep at
it because I'm not going tosettle, and that was kind of a
phrase that we'd use.
I don't want to settle, I wantto find that person that there's
that nice complementaryrelationship to, and I always
respected those peopletremendously because it's just a
lot of work too and I alwaysrespected those people
tremendously because it's just alot of work.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, because, like you're talking about, you're
going through.
I mean I'd be curious ifthere's and I don't know if you
have this number, but I'd becurious to know how many people
you've been through, or onewould go through, to find that
one person and I'm not sayingthat there's only one person out
there for you, I don't believethat but go through how many
(21:57):
people a person would go throughto find somebody that is
compatible.
Just the sheer volume of peoplewould seem to me overwhelming.
And I know that when I talk tofolks who are post-divorce,
they're walking back through thewhole idea of dating or they're
post-widow or widower andthey're talking about this whole
(22:18):
idea of dating.
Again, it does seem sooverwhelming and they're like I
know it's a numbers game howmany people am I going to have
to go out with to find somebodythat is compatible?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, and that's where my dating coaches
kept telling me is you got tokeep fishing and don't get
locked in too quickly.
You know a first date and thenyou shut down all the other
people you're communicating withand that's real hard to do,
especially if you both kind ofthink, oh wow, this is pretty
exciting.
But it is.
(22:50):
It's what Cale called.
It's a numbers game.
You just got to go out onenough dates and meet enough
people.
But you know the thing that'sinteresting about it and, if you
can look at it, keep a sense ofhumor and I try to envision it
as a learning experience and anadventure and me trying to learn
(23:11):
more about myself.
But it was always realinteresting.
It was fascinating to me.
One the people I would beattracted to.
Because I started thinking, ok,I kind of know what I'm
attracted to and the longer Idated, the broader and the more
intricate that became.
(23:31):
You know, you go out on a dateand you'd find yourself going,
wow, they're really interesting.
That would be a fun person todate that you might never look
at the profile and think, oh,that's, that's going to be way
up there.
The other one's realinteresting is the reverse of
that.
The reverse of that.
(23:53):
When you're out there online,you know people can men, women
can contact you as well, whichyou know.
I was always real amazed at thewomen who would initiate
contact with me because I wouldyou know I might go, I might
pass you on the street and Iwould never dream you'd be
interested in going out with me,and so it really broadens your
view of attraction and howcomplicated that thing is.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Well, that's very well said, because I think about
the people that you know, likewe tend to have a type or we
think we do, we think we doRight, and I think that at times
people get super locked in on.
Well, they don't meet my fivecriteria.
Yeah, go out on a date andyou're like, so, do you attend
(24:38):
church?
Yes, I do.
Okay, check, are you?
Do you still speak with yourfamily?
Yes, I do.
And okay, check, and it's likewe get, we can get so locked in
and it's like we get, we can get, so locked in.
We miss.
We miss a breadth, a depth anda breadth of the things that we
could potentially see insomebody else that might blow
the doors off of our list offive or 10 things that that we
(25:03):
want.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Thoughts on that.
Oh yeah, you're.
You're hitting on one of thebig core issues there.
I couldn't agree with you morebecause I'd go out on these
first dates and it was almostlike a car salesman coming in
and going through the checkoffof all the features on this
model.
You know, do you havefour-wheel drive?
You know how many miles do youhave on you.
(25:25):
You know, has your transmissionbeen changed recently?
I mean, it was like but they'regoing through the you're
exactly right, going through andyou contrast that with dates.
You'd go out with people andthey would just show up.
It would be like let's talk andlet me get to know you a little
bit and you get to know me alittle bit.
And even if there wasn't anychemistry, even if you know
(25:46):
we're not going to go out again,but you'd have this lovely
conversation with somebody andyou'd make a friend and you know
you'd learn something aboutsomebody that you didn't know.
That was a lot more fun to dothan the checklist thing.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Oh, no kidding, Because on one level not to be
crass, but I would imagine thatchecklist feels a little bit
like a medical exam, like ohyeah, you for a colonoscopy
sorry to be crass, yeah.
On the other hand, it's likethere's no chemistry here, but
that doesn't matter.
We can still get to know oneanother and and not not to make
(26:24):
it sound perfunctory, but what agreat opportunity to practice
getting to know somebody and,like you never know who, who you
would be attracted to and whatthings you learn about people
that pique your interest andhelp you grow.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, and that's where so much of the material
from the book came from.
You know I would I don't knowhow many hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of dates.
I went on, I have no idea, buta lot, and so many of them, you
know, you'd know, midway into it, you know you'd both kind of
(27:02):
have a feeling, ah, it's notgoing to go on, and it would
switch gears and you'd starttalking about that person, would
want to say, well, what's itbeen like for you dating online?
Well, what's it been like foryou and you start sharing war
stories and things with oneanother and it's like you're
both in the same boat together.
And that's where I learned somuch from people was.
You'd be on those dates whereyou'd know we're not going to
(27:22):
date but we're both dating andwhat's it been like.
And you, you know you talk foran hour about that stuff.
And I learned so much frompeople that way.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
That's, that's a really that makes a lot of good
sense.
I mean it's, it's.
It's not only grabbing yourexperiences, but it's like
you're grabbing theirexperiences and it's, I would
imagine, knowing you, that youcollating all that and and
looking for themes and andwhat's common and what happens,
and yeah, yeah, yeah, I have aquestion for you about that.
(27:55):
How would you coach somebodywho, between because thinking
about all of that, I mean youwhen you know it's not gonna, or
I guess early on, you'rethinking I'm, I'm wondering if
you're, if one's thinking, hey,I'm not going to just get out
there and be vulnerable witheverybody, because I'll have, as
Bernie Brown calls it, I'llhave a vulnerability hangover
(28:17):
every morning.
Yeah, because I'm doing it sooften, won't be as vulnerable
anymore.
Yeah, right, comes in andthey're sitting like this and
you know, like closing theirbody language and not hardly
talking.
And how many kids do you have?
Enough, you know, or that couldnot be.
How?
(28:38):
How would you coach somebody to, to to find that balance?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
to where they be a little bit more comfortable
opening up on those days versusself-protection versus
self-protection.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I mean, would you suggest to people to be
protective in the beginning,would you?
I don't know?
What would your sage wisdom onthat be?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, that's a great question.
I probably erred on the being alittle more open and being a
little more out there, becausethat's just kind of my
personality.
I can pull that off and itdoesn't.
(29:25):
It does get tiring over timebecause you feel like you're
having the same conversationsover and over and over again.
And one of the things we runinto at least I ran into an
awful lot was people who werecoached to get out there dating
by a friend.
One of their kids wrote theirprofile and you'd get on a date
(29:47):
with them and they'd own up toit.
They'd say you know, this isthe first time I've been out and
I've tried this and I'm justnot ready and I can't tell you
the dozens and dozens and dozensof times that happened.
And so you do have.
There are a lot of people thatbecause they've been hurt,
probably in the past in arelationship, they're still
carrying some woundedness around.
(30:08):
Probably in the past in arelationship, they're still
carrying some woundedness around.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And that's why I think and I talk about it in the
book those those first twophases.
Before you get started dating,you got to work on yourself and
do some internal healing, somecore work, and but a lot of
people they skip that.
They're going to think datingis going to solve my woundedness
(30:32):
and it's just kind offrustrating more and more.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
That makes so much sense because you're right,
regardless of why you findyourself in this place at this
time of life, where you're outdating, whether it's through
going through a divorce, whetherit's being a widow or a widower
, there's something there thatyou went through that you've got
to.
You're suggesting, and I'magreeing, that you've got to
(31:01):
sort out.
You have to.
I always say you have to findme before I can bring me to we.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's exactly right me towe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sexactly right.
And for, obviously, if amarriage ends in death, that's
one set of circumstances andthere'll be grief and there'll
be loss and there's that dynamic.
If a marriage is going to endthrough a divorce, then there's
some some fracturing there.
(31:29):
There's some woundedness thereWell early woundedness there,
well early on in my divorceadjustment.
I'm an expert at talking aboutwhat my spouse did that ruined
the marriage and I've got thatnarrative down, pat.
Well, if you do your work, thenarrative you really get is your
own narrative.
(31:50):
This is what I did that led tothe.
This is what I contributed tothe failure of that thing.
And if I don't have thatnarrative, if I haven't owned my
own story of what mywoundedness is, there's a real
strong likelihood I'm going togo out, get on match and repeat
it all over again and I'm goingto find myself, you know, back
(32:15):
as one woman said.
She said I've been marriedthree times, but it's the same
man, just in a different body.
He said my man picker is broken.
Yeah Well, she finally decidedshe was going to do her work.
So yeah, I agree with you 100percent on that do her work.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
So, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent on
that.
Yeah, cause what is it?
It's?
The divorce rate now for firstmarriages is about roughly 50%,
for second marriages it'sroughly 60% and for third
marriages it's roughly 75%,correct?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, yeah Just going on on that thing.
Right.
Going on on that thing, it's doyour work.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Do your work.
Yeah, I love what you're sayingabout one of the ways that we
can understand, as a person'sout there and you know, enjoying
the that dating process andhopefully they are enjoying that
dating process.
They are enjoying that datingprocess but they're enjoying
that dating process.
One of those cues to look foris is if everything's
(33:14):
externalized, that hey, you knowmy husband or my, you know my
ex-husband or my ex-wife or youknow anything, that's always
that's externalizing it out tothem and you don't hear it.
Coming back to what was mycontribution, even if your
contribution was 5%, yeah, stillthe thing that I can own.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, yeah, my contribution may have been.
I just didn't see it.
It was there in black and white.
I just didn't recognize it ordidn't want to look at it.
Okay, well, that says somethingabout me.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeahthat's.
Do you think that there'sspeaking of divorce and widowing
?
Do you think that there is?
Did you?
I don't know if you datedwidows, but I'm curious if you
found in your experience andresearch that dating someone who
(34:11):
had been through a divorce wasdifferent than dating somebody
who had been widowed orwidowered.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And I drove up there and her exhad had been a college
administrator and I was acollege administrator at that
time, so we had a lot of thingsin common.
And I drove up and we were at aMexican restaurant, just met
her and we had been talking fora few hours and whatever.
And she looked at me and shesaid I can't, I can't do this.
(35:01):
And you know, we talked laterand she just said getting out
there and dating has helped meunderstand.
I'm just, I'm not over him.
So the grief hadn't workedthrough.
And so, yeah, I ran into womenwho they'd had the love of what
I call is they had their love oftheir love of their life, and
(35:24):
that was it.
Then.
The other one, though that wasreal interesting was you'd run
into women who had been marriedto one kind of guy I talk about
in the book.
There was a lady I knew yearsago and she was married to an
engineer and he was, you know,buttoned down in Alan Edmonds
shoes and real conservative, andhe was buttoned down in Alan
Edmunds' shoes and realconservative and she was too to
match that.
And then he passed away, realsuddenly, and she shows up with
(35:48):
this guy from South Americawho's just flamboyant and hairy
and just out there and all ofher friends were going.
She's lost her mind.
Well, no, she just shifted thattemplate of attraction.
She was very broad for her and,being a widow, let some new
(36:13):
parts of her personality comeout and be reinforced.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
That's so interesting because, you know, we, we see
that in our, our offices, right,and and people do, especially
the family members are thinking,oh my gosh, like you said, they
have lost their ever lovingmind.
And it's like, no, I do thinkthat there is a certain point of
being a widow or a widower, Ifthere, if, if you were married
(36:43):
to, like you said, the love ofyour life.
There is a certain that, thatchapter that closes off and says
, okay, I don't want to findsomebody.
That's the same Like you weresaying about this woman that you
were dating, that was a nurse,and that you know all these
things that you all enjoyedtogether, but you were way too
similar to this, that she lost.
(37:06):
And so there's this whole ideaof looking for where am I on the
spectrum of life and what do Ienjoy?
And it's like, had that, lovedit, it was amazing and I don't
want to have it again.
It's almost like this is, Ihope, isn't irreverent, but it's
like it's.
It's a, it's a terrible analogyand my apologies, but it's like
(37:29):
having a, this amazing meal andexperience, and it's recreated.
It's like no, no, no, no, no, Idon't want to recreate that.
That was too amazing, tooperfect.
Don't try it.
So, while that was in a Frenchrestaurant, let's go to a
Brazilian steakhouse and let'stry it that way.
(37:49):
So I get what you're sayingInteresting, but what do you?
What do you see that similarlywith?
With women who have gonethrough a divorce?
Or would you say there's reallyno pattern there?
Women who have gone?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
through a divorce, or would you say there's really no
pattern there?
Well, yeah, with the divorcethere, of course, if so many of
the divorce people, men andwomen, they well, you know this
from transition work they wantto run through the ending, get
through, get through the divorceas quick as they can.
you know, put a profile outthere, get back out dating,
(38:22):
because their friends are saying, you know, as soon as you can
get dating, you'll get tofeeling better, and they skip
over looking at what happened inthe marriage, what happened to
them going through that, endingbeing alone, learning to be
alone, is a really good thingand, you know, it's like Murray
(38:44):
Bowen said a real balancedperson can be separate and
together and be whole.
In that, well, he was exactlyright.
And so the divorce people.
A lot of times they'll run out,they'll date real quick and
then they'll get paired up withsomeone who's not good for them,
have a bad experience, and thennow you've got the divorce and
(39:07):
you've got this bad datinghistory lapped on top of each
other.
And so what I try and getpeople to do is slow this thing
down a little bit.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Give yourself some time and give yourself some room
to breathe a little bit andfigure out who you are and then
what you're looking for.
Yeah, yeah, because that mayebb and flow, that may change,
that may, as you walk throughthe whole idea of self-discovery
.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's what I call that pocketlist of non-negotiables.
What can you put on a three byfive card that you have to have
in a relationship?
Well, chances are, what thatlooks like when you're 25 is
very different from what itlooks like when you're 55.
(39:55):
Or it can look different fromthe divorce to the time that
you're starting to date again.
Well, that's a really goodthing, it means I know myself
better.
Or it can look different fromthe divorce to the time that
you're starting to date again.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Well, that's a really good thing.
It means I know myself better.
How would you capture forsomeone the idea of healthy
expectations?
Because, you're right,expectations change in the
different seasons of life.
How would you capture, or whatwould you advise in, healthy
expectations for people in thisstage of life?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
rematching with somebody.
Yeah well, those expectationsare to your point you made a few
minutes ago.
You have children, you havefamilies, you have lots of
people involved generally in aperson's life, and so those
expectations are generally goingto be a bit more complex than
they would be when a person's 20or 25 years old.
(40:52):
And so it's me allowing theother person to have their
complexity and them allowing meto have my complexity.
It's a dumb illustration, butit's like when I pulled up
(41:14):
Lisa's profile it said you know,I have a long haired
dachachshund and we're a packagedeal.
Okay, well, I come with threecops, we're a package deal, so
we figure out how to dogs andpolicemen.
Okay, well, that's ourcomplexity and it's learning to
(41:37):
give grace and space for thoseimportant parts of that person's
life.
And saying I'm going to love Iwas like she did I'm going to
love your cops and I'm going totell her I love your dachshund
and we're going to figure outhow to move forward with that.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, it sounds an awful lot like knowing yourself
well enough to know.
Can I give you this flexibility?
Yeah, because I may not be intolong hair dachshunds and you
may not be into the stress ofwhat it means to have, you know
three very, very, very closeloved ones who risk it for the
(42:22):
community on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
There's that flexibility of you're worth it
Therefore, or I'll, I'll, I willhold hold back is probably, but
I will not press forward withjudgment and say, oh, I'm out, I
don't think I can do that Now.
If it's, if it's like I'm justthinking about, like my wife is
definitely allergic to cats andif for some reason, she found
(42:48):
herself later in life dating ifsomebody had a cat, that'd be a
deal breaker because shecouldn't shake it.
Be flexible in that.
But other things there, thereare other people, there are
other themes that I think youknow.
We think, oh, I'd never do thisor I'd never date somebody like
this.
Where it's like, if it's not amoral or a legal or a ethical
(43:11):
issue, yes, let it, let it.
You're saying kind of, let itcoast for a minute, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, yeah, and that was one of the things that I.
I don't know that I dideverything right in the dating
period, but one of the thingsthat I did do was I was open to
a wide variety of possibilities.
I dated a couple of ladies thatwere Jewish and their families
(43:42):
welcomed me into their familiesand were just fabulous people.
Some of my favorite times werewith them.
Dated women who were, you know,highly educated, like I am, and
then went out with a lady whowas a truck driver across the,
(44:12):
who was nothing like me.
But they were interesting peopleand they all had interesting
stories, and it was good for meto broaden myself out.
I'm going to throw a questionat you, which is do you find
because you mentioned a momentago rigidity versus flexibility
Do you think that that's aproblem that we encounter as we
(44:33):
age, a tendency toward morerigidity?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I do, I do, and I'm curious if you found the same
thing.
I think that we, you know, asour, as our brain pairs down to
the things that we utilize overand, over and over again, our
brains become more efficient,which is a really nice design.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
With that, I think it lends, it can lend itself to us
becoming not as flexible, alittle more rigid, which I don't
think serves us well those weremy least favorite experiences
dating.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
The more rigid a person was, the less I had in
common with them, because I livein a gray area, we work in a
gray area, we don't work inblack and white, and I like
complexity and I find that rulesare great, but there's a lot of
exceptions in life as well, andI just encountered a lot of
real rigid people that I thinkwere going to be alone for a
(45:49):
long time Unless they foundsomebody that thought just like
the way they did.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Well, and yeah, that's an interesting thought,
because what I hear from peoplethat tend to have a little bit
more of a rigid mindset and Idon't think it's everybody, but
it is like, oh, the pool isdrying up, there's not as many
great people to choose from, andI keep thinking to myself you
know, I know so many people thatare really fantastic people and
(46:16):
maybe they're not your cup oftea, but is tea the liquid that
you demand every time?
I mean, you know, is it couldcould there be, you know, a
flexibility to find somebodythat is Maybe just a skosh
different than you originallythought that you needed?
And it's as you've as you'vetalked throughout this time, and
(46:43):
it's as you've as you've talkedthroughout this time that's
what I'm hearing you say is thatyou went out on this quest,
this adventure, and it's notnecessarily, yes, it was to find
a mate, yes, it was to find,but it was more about finding
there's also, it seems to melike it was also an internal
quest of learning more about youwhile you learn more about
(47:03):
other people.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
I made the decision early oninto the divorce adjustment.
I was going to embrace any kindof therapy or self-discovery or
book or seminar, you name it.
If it was put in front of meand there was something I could
learn from that, I was going to.
I was just going to flat do it,because how can you be an
(47:28):
ethical clinician and not dothat?
You know you can't look atyourself in the mirror and it
was a marvelous.
It was a marvelous learningexperience.
I'm not at all the same personI was 20 years ago because of
having gone through all this,but that's one of the same
person.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I was 20 years ago because of having gone through
all this, but that's one of thethings that I love most about
you, or one of the many things Ilove most about you is this
internal drive to constantlylearn.
You're an eternal learner andit just it adds a complexity and
a dynamic to who you are.
That is wonderful andfascinating and, I think,
(48:03):
exciting because it's an event.
It's like we get to doco-adventures.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, very much so.
Well, you're the same way.
You're an explorer and youreyes light up whenever there's a
new idea and you're like, let'sgo for it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
All of our fun discussions?
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Well, is there anything thatyou want to leave these
listeners with this book?
I mean, look, pick it up, it'srematch love in the extended
adulthood and where can peoplepick this up?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
yeah, it's on amazon, it's on barnes and noble uh
websites, walmart, so it's allthe big distributors.
And, yeah, love to hearfeedback from folks how
different thoughts differentlike it's.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
it's like a it's um, it's like a window into the, the
experience.
You know, when you, when yousay I said the other day I said
(49:11):
I would love to be a fly on thewall of that experience.
This is a fly on the wall ofthat experience and there's so
many great stories in here, it'sso well-written.
Everybody needs to go pick thisthing up and understand either
what your friends are goingthrough or how to go through
this in a really, really healthymanner.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
So Don thank you for writing this.
Well, thank you and thanks forletting me do this with you.
This has been so much fun.
Thank you If you found value indo this with you.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
This has been so much fun.
Thank you.
If you found value in ourdiscussion and wish to uncover
more about the fascinating worldof mental wellness, don't
forget to subscribe to thepodcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
(50:03):
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and in thisepisode I'm joined by Dr Don
Hebert, one of our counselorshere at Restoration.
Together we're talking aboutsomething many people face but
few talk about honestly, andthat's dating.
Again, in this conversation, wego beyond the surface and
(00:26):
explore the unexpected emotionallayers, challenges and
opportunities that come withreentering the dating world
later in life or after loss.
Whether you're navigating thisseason yourself or supporting
someone who is, this episodeoffers wisdom, encouragement and
(00:48):
real insight.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Welcome, don, dr Don Hebert, toRestoration Beyond the Couch.
I am so excited you're with ustoday.
You are a man of so manytalents and the reason why we're
here today is to talk aboutyour latest book called Rematch.
(01:13):
You can see here Love inExtended Adulthood and what a
great, what a treasure of a book.
So I won't go into that yet,but I just want to say welcome
and thank you for being here.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thanks, lee.
It's good to be with you.
I miss being with you everyweek and now that I'm in Houston
I have to do this long distanceevery once in a while.
We have to get our fix longdistance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
That's right.
I know you had the great, I hadthe great pleasure and joy of
getting to be with you everyweek.
And now it's catch as catch can.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, yeah, I went off and ran away from Fort Worth
and ran to the other side ofthe state.
But there you go.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
But for a good reason right.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's a very good reason, so
that's okay, yeah reason.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
So that's, that's okay.
Yeah, so so would you?
Would you catch our listenersup?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
on why you ran away to Houston.
Yeah, sure Cause it's.
You know, ties into the book sowell.
After after being single againfor shoot 20 years, I guess Lisa
and I met on match.
She's here in Houston.
I was up in Dallas and wecommuted, dated, we
long-distance dated for aboutthree years and then we got
(02:35):
married last October.
And because I teach and a lotof my work's online, it made
more sense for me to come and alot of my work's online, it made
more sense for me to come toHouston and I'm selling my place
up in Dallas right now and soI'm in a whole new restructuring
of a whole new life, which iskind of interesting to be doing.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, and it makes me wonder is she a lot of the
inspiration behind this book?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, you know, the book has been a project for a
number of years.
When I was going through thispretty early on, one of my
mentors, who you'd heard me talka lot about, james Cale Cale
told me he said you need to keepnotes on this because he said
at some point in time you know,as a marriage and family person
(03:26):
going through all this, you mayhave some things you want to
write about.
And I thought, oh yeah, I don'tknow about that, but anyway.
So I started taking notes andjournals and stuff.
You know, first year into thisthing and you know it just
shoved him aside and juststarted collecting that stuff.
And then about oh, probablyabout a year into dating Lisa
(03:52):
and our thing was really comingtogether nicely Cale came back
to me and he said OK, you needto get your typewriter out, it's
time to get after that thing.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
So I love it.
Um, I love that.
So.
So when you found yourselfnewly single again 20 something
years ago, he prompted you tokeep notes of what it was like
(04:32):
to date as a therapist Yep, yep,what, uh, and what?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
what was some?
What was that experience like?
I mean just thinking it allback through the seminars, this
is our world.
And we think I thought I knewwhat I was walking into.
And I say in the first chapterI thought, well, I'll just, I'll
go out, I'll date a little bit,I'll meet a nice lady and, you
(04:57):
know, start life over again.
And that was the mostridiculous thought that ever
went through my brain, becausewe're living through such a
shift in the way in which peoplemeet and fall in love and do
that whole thing that for me itwas such a discovery that what I
had learned in practice was notsome of it was going to work
(05:21):
and then some of it I was goingto have to throw out because
it's all so new.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
What were some of those tensions that you saw?
Because you're right, we are ina really big shift in how we
meet people, like the cultureshift that is upon us, like it
or not.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Right, yeah.
Well, one of the big shifts ofcourse it's the reason I call it
, you know finding love andextended adulthood is that when
you're like I was 47 when Istarted this that I used back in
(06:01):
college in my 20s, to meet anddate.
You know, back then I was anold guy.
You called up the dorm.
There was one phone on the dormhall you called in for you know
Mary in room 232.
They'd scream her name out andthen you'd hope you didn't hear
(06:23):
a cackle of laughing from othergirls in their rooms and they'd
come down to the phone.
You had 20 girls sharing onephone and it was all about
propinquity.
You dated and you mated peoplethat you were around and you did
that within that mid-20s,late-20s period of time and you
(06:45):
really locked in to all thosemajor commitments who you're
going to be married to, whereyou're going to live, what your
occupation was.
All that stuff got startedearly on.
Well, nowadays all that stuff'sgetting shoved back a decade.
People are doing that in their30s and now people in their 50s
(07:05):
and 60s and 70s are dating andthey have these old templates of
how they used to date back intheir 20s and those don't work
when you're 50 or 60 or 70 yearsold.
You're going to do it, but it'sgoing to be done in a whole
different way.
I don't know.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (07:23):
It makes perfect sense, because the interesting
thing there is, like when you'retalking about you know, you
call up to the dorm and you askfor a marry in room two or
whatever, you have all these.
You're dating in front of a lotof people, oh yeah.
And now, with everything well,not everything, but most things
being online and very siloedit's you don't date out in front
(07:49):
of a big community.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, that's exactly right and it's a great
observation.
You're very siloed.
It's a very honestly, it's avery lonely kind of endeavor,
which is why I went and got some.
I called them wingmen andwingwomen to make sure I wasn't
crazy sometimes.
But yeah, it's a very lonelyand that's why a lot of people
(08:13):
get real discouraged with it isbecause you get ghosted, you get
lied to, you get betrayed, allthat other stuff goes on, or
there's fake, you know profilesand whatever, and you're kind of
doing it alone and you go.
This is too crazy.
I, you know I I can't do this.
And so people have to kind ofdevelop that alligator hide and
and kind of you know, toughen upa little bit and be able to
(08:36):
pull it off.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
That does seem like it is a theme of of date.
I think it's a theme of datingin general.
Now, because I hear this fromthe folks I work with in their,
you know, teens, 20s, you know,30s and up, it's that it does
seem like it's a big culturalshift.
I don't, I'm not, I don't knowthat I've thought about the fact
(09:00):
that it's a big cultural shiftfor people 40s and up or if it's
just across the board, but it'simpacting 40s and up, maybe I
should say late 40s and up,because we didn't grow up with,
I mean, I remember, when youknow, the first cell phone, I
didn't have a real cell phoneuntil I was, you know, married
(09:24):
and you know you got dial upinternet in college, I mean,
where you know you dial on andit makes this horrible noise and
then squeaks and squawks andthen finally it connects and you
might be able to hack out anemail and then it might take a
minute if you had a photo toattach to it.
Now it's like, you know, I mean, kids are in restaurants
(09:45):
dialing up, you know, all typesof things, sending all types of
files, and it just goes likethat.
You know, I'm wondering do youthink that there's like, do you
think that there's an?
It was an.
It's a technology thing.
Do you think it's a culturalthing?
Do you think it's all of theabove?
Yeah, it's a great observation,it's a great question, and yeah
, I think it's a cultural thing.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Do you think it's all of the above?
Yeah, it's a great observation,it's a great question and, yeah
, I think it's all of the above.
And I think for the you know,the just pick a number, the 50s
and up, that did not grow up, uh, maybe as technology driven and
comfortable with that there's,there's the whole.
(10:24):
You know, I'm a new singleperson, either widowed or
divorced or whatever, and I'mtrying to figure out how, to
date, at this point in time, youknow, what do I do, what do I
say, how do I present myself?
What am I looking for?
All of those questions, whatare those essentials?
(10:44):
And then there's navigating,the technology part of it, which
is like, okay, what pictures doI put up?
How do I describe myself?
I probably wrote 50, 75different versions of profiles
through the years short, long,cute, funny, serious, you name
(11:05):
it, kind of thing.
And you're trying to navigate.
And then the differentplatforms are going to have
different procedures that youhave to follow, you know, to
match up with some people.
You know, early on eHarmonythey had these crazy eight
stages of questions you wentthrough that were just brutal
(11:26):
because they were soself-revealing early on and
thankfully they got rid of thatstuff.
And then you got otherplatforms like Match, where
you're basically, you know, outthere doing all your picking and
sorting and profiling yourself,and so for those older foes,
it's the how do I date at thispoint in time?
(11:48):
And then how do I not look likeI'm stupid online, trying to do
this at the same time and thennot get paired up with somebody?
That's not somebody ofcharacter that I would want to
go out with, because everybody'sheard the horror stories oh,
have we heard the horror stories?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
yeah, and it's interesting because, yeah,
you're, you're, you're so spoton.
I was listening to a bodylanguage expert who was talking
about you know how to how topick the best online profile
picture and I just, oh my gosh,like the granular nature of what
we can get into Now.
(12:32):
She was doing a phenomenal job,she had such great ideas and
feedbacks and thoughts, but, wow, it seemed overwhelming.
Yeah, now to think, oh, youneed a picture with a half tilt
and a smile and a don't smilewith your teeth.
Or if you're wanting to conveythis, convey.
And it's like, oh my gosh, Idon't, how would you know what
to convey?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, yeah, it just it can be absolutely
overwhelming and, uh, what Iended up looking for?
Uh, after you know, a long timeof being online dating and
whatever, and I actually likedit, I mean.
I'm a proponent of it, I'm infavor of it for a number of
reasons, but I would look for asense of authenticity coming
(13:20):
through in the way the personwrote, in the way way they would
text and the way they wouldpresent themselves.
If they just seemed basicallyhonest, if there was a sense of
humor in there and realauthenticity, if it is a real
person, they seem to be tryinghonestly to meet somebody and go
out, then that would be what Iwould look for.
More than that, you know, real,getting into the details of
(13:42):
things.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, that makes sense, and I would imagine it's
difficult to know if there'sauthenticity without giving it
some space and time.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
With this pared-out authenticity.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, and that was.
You were talking aboutsurprises.
One of the things I learnedthrough the years was that the
quick startups there were peopleout there doing they're just in
a hurry and you know you'd hearfrom them.
You know you'd get fivemessages in one day.
They want to be meeting youknow, in two days or three days
(14:19):
and then meet again.
It was just boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
Meet again, it was just boom,boom, boom, boom, boom.
And invariably those were theones that would drop off the end
of the earth and you'd neverhear anything from them, because
they're onto the next, they'reonto the next match and they'd
wear you out too.
So when, to your point, whenyou'd get somebody who had a
(14:40):
sense of timing and they seem tobe be within themselves, they
weren't rushing as much, thatwas usually a pretty good sign.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
That makes good sense .
Um, yeah, it makes me thinkabout too, like when you're,
when you have, when you findsomebody who's sounds like to me
you're talking about speeddating, like there's trying to
speed through the process.
Yeah, there's so many, there'sthe potential of so many
complexities of of a uh, kids,career, extended family that all
(15:22):
still want and need yourattention and aren't willing to
give that up and shouldn't bewilling to give that up, maybe
to uh, to you going out andfinding a new mate.
What advice do you have and howdo you address that?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, and that's a great observation and one of the
things I do.
You mentioned that there'ssteps in the book kind of toward
the end of that process.
I asked you know, how is thisaffecting your decision making?
How is this affecting yourextended family?
What's the overall impact ofthis relationship on your entire
(16:01):
life?
And you know as well as I doyou've done enough therapy to
know that when you're matched upwith somebody who's got some
pretty serious problems, thatwhen you're matched up with
somebody who's got some prettyserious problems, they're going
to want to constrict and controlyour life and your
relationships and the peopleyou're around and they're going
to want to be more controllingand have your attention.
(16:22):
And if you're dealing withsomeone who's healthier, they're
going to be a better partner.
They're going to incorporateyour life into their life.
And, of course, when you're 50or 60, those are bigger lives to
put together than what it iswhen you're 20 years old,
because you've got kids,grandkids or you know like we
(16:43):
had separate towns and big livesboth places.
And so, yeah to your point,when you've got somebody, you've
got somebody, that's and ithappens real subtly you get
certain personalities that willvery subtly cut off their
partner's relationships withtheir kids and with family
(17:06):
members and with people theyplayed racquetball with, and
suddenly it's just down to thosetwo people.
Well, that's usually a prettybad sign.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, cause it's.
It's like you said, therethere's a further siloing that
you away from this, because thething that I think is really
beautiful about yours and Lisa'srelationship is that I know she
has been woven into your circleand I know you've been woven
(17:37):
into hers, and so, rather thanpairing out what you previously
had, it's like you guys havejoined a way bigger support
network, a way bigger supportnetwork.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
It's like you guys have had this wonderful
multiplication here.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
Cale made the comment early on.
He said, talking about me, hesaid you do work really well,
but you need to marry some fun.
And I did.
Lisa's just a lot of fun andthat was one of the reasons why
(18:19):
I wanted to come to Houston.
I lived in Dallas since 68.
I lived other places, butDallas was home since 68.
Her whole social network downhere is so rich and interesting
and varied and I've picked up awhole new aspect to my life
(18:41):
that's way beyond drumming andworking all the time, which is
all I did, and so, yeah, andthen she, her family's all gone,
they've all passed, and so youknow, coming in and and she just
picked up with my kids rightaway and she texts them and
talks to them as much as I do.
(19:02):
And so it was.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
It was a nice blending of those things and we
both, we both have benefitedfrom that, which is such an
immense blessing, not just toyou but to your extended crew
and to hers, because it's adovetailing in of both of you
and you guys both get to beblessings to all of that, which
(19:27):
is a really sweet place to be ofthat, which is a really sweet
place to be.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, and you know it's interesting because I was
talking with Dr Margaret Penderand you know Margaret from
Amberton Days and we both loveher dearly LMFT and she made the
comment a number of years agoto me about this dating thing.
She said, you know, don, shesaid when it works and when it's
(19:55):
right, you just don't have towork at it that hard, it just
comes together and it fits in anice way.
You have to, obviously,relationships all work, but she
said there's a coming togetherand a blending there that you're
not having to just force.
And I think she was exactlyright.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
I think she is too.
And it's funny because peoplesay to me I've been with my wife
for 28 or 29 years.
People say, oh, marriage ishard work.
I'm like, yeah, oh, is it?
Because it's like you're saying.
It's like when you find theperson that you're compatible
with, there's so much synergythere that you know it is work.
(20:37):
We do work at our marriage, butwhen work is fun, it feels less
like work and more enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And I think that's a good time.
Yeah, and I think one of thenot to be negative at all, but I
think one of the discouragingthings about dating in this
second half of life is you dohave to go through usually a
number of people to date tofinally find that one where it
does work.
And I would talk to a lot ofpeople who dated that were my
(21:11):
age and they would sayrepeatedly I'm going to keep at
it because I'm not going tosettle, and that was kind of a
phrase that we'd use.
I don't want to settle, I wantto find that person that there's
that nice complementaryrelationship to, and I always
respected those peopletremendously because it's just a
lot of work too and I alwaysrespected those people
tremendously because it's just alot of work.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Well, because, like you're talking about, you're
going through.
I mean I'd be curious ifthere's and I don't know if you
have this number, but I'd becurious to know how many people
you've been through, or onewould go through, to find that
one person and I'm not sayingthat there's only one person out
there for you, I don't believethat but go through how many
(21:57):
people a person would go throughto find somebody that is
compatible.
Just the sheer volume of peoplewould seem to me overwhelming.
And I know that when I talk tofolks who are post-divorce,
they're walking back through thewhole idea of dating or they're
post-widow or widower andthey're talking about this whole
(22:18):
idea of dating.
Again, it does seem sooverwhelming and they're like I
know it's a numbers game howmany people am I going to have
to go out with to find somebodythat is compatible?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah, and that's where my dating coaches
kept telling me is you got tokeep fishing and don't get
locked in too quickly.
You know a first date and thenyou shut down all the other
people you're communicating withand that's real hard to do,
especially if you both kind ofthink, oh wow, this is pretty
exciting.
But it is.
(22:50):
It's what Cale called.
It's a numbers game.
You just got to go out onenough dates and meet enough
people.
But you know the thing that'sinteresting about it and, if you
can look at it, keep a sense ofhumor and I try to envision it
as a learning experience and anadventure and me trying to learn
(23:11):
more about myself.
But it was always realinteresting.
It was fascinating to me.
One the people I would beattracted to.
Because I started thinking, ok,I kind of know what I'm
attracted to and the longer Idated, the broader and the more
intricate that became.
(23:31):
You know, you go out on a dateand you'd find yourself going,
wow, they're really interesting.
That would be a fun person todate that you might never look
at the profile and think, oh,that's, that's going to be way
up there.
The other one's realinteresting is the reverse of
that.
The reverse of that.
(23:53):
When you're out there online,you know people can men, women
can contact you as well, whichyou know.
I was always real amazed at thewomen who would initiate
contact with me because I wouldyou know I might go, I might
pass you on the street and Iwould never dream you'd be
interested in going out with me,and so it really broadens your
view of attraction and howcomplicated that thing is.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Well, that's very well said, because I think about
the people that you know, likewe tend to have a type or we
think we do, we think we doRight, and I think that at times
people get super locked in on.
Well, they don't meet my fivecriteria.
Yeah, go out on a date andyou're like, so, do you attend
(24:38):
church?
Yes, I do.
Okay, check, are you?
Do you still speak with yourfamily?
Yes, I do.
And okay, check, and it's likewe get, we can get so locked in
and it's like we get, we can get, so locked in.
We miss.
We miss a breadth, a depth anda breadth of the things that we
could potentially see insomebody else that might blow
the doors off of our list offive or 10 things that that we
(25:03):
want.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Thoughts on that.
Oh yeah, you're.
You're hitting on one of thebig core issues there.
I couldn't agree with you morebecause I'd go out on these
first dates and it was almostlike a car salesman coming in
and going through the checkoffof all the features on this
model.
You know, do you havefour-wheel drive?
You know how many miles do youhave on you.
(25:25):
You know, has your transmissionbeen changed recently?
I mean, it was like but they'regoing through the you're
exactly right, going through andyou contrast that with dates.
You'd go out with people andthey would just show up.
It would be like let's talk andlet me get to know you a little
bit and you get to know me alittle bit.
And even if there wasn't anychemistry, even if you know
(25:46):
we're not going to go out again,but you'd have this lovely
conversation with somebody andyou'd make a friend and you know
you'd learn something aboutsomebody that you didn't know.
That was a lot more fun to dothan the checklist thing.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Oh, no kidding, Because on one level not to be
crass, but I would imagine thatchecklist feels a little bit
like a medical exam, like ohyeah, you for a colonoscopy
sorry to be crass, yeah.
On the other hand, it's likethere's no chemistry here, but
that doesn't matter.
We can still get to know oneanother and and not not to make
(26:24):
it sound perfunctory, but what agreat opportunity to practice
getting to know somebody and,like you never know who, who you
would be attracted to and whatthings you learn about people
that pique your interest andhelp you grow.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Yeah, and that's where so much of the material
from the book came from.
You know I would I don't knowhow many hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of dates.
I went on, I have no idea, buta lot, and so many of them, you
know, you'd know, midway into it, you know you'd both kind of
(27:02):
have a feeling, ah, it's notgoing to go on, and it would
switch gears and you'd starttalking about that person, would
want to say, well, what's itbeen like for you dating online?
Well, what's it been like foryou and you start sharing war
stories and things with oneanother and it's like you're
both in the same boat together.
And that's where I learned somuch from people was.
You'd be on those dates whereyou'd know we're not going to
(27:22):
date but we're both dating andwhat's it been like.
And you, you know you talk foran hour about that stuff.
And I learned so much frompeople that way.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
That's, that's a really that makes a lot of good
sense.
I mean it's, it's.
It's not only grabbing yourexperiences, but it's like
you're grabbing theirexperiences and it's, I would
imagine, knowing you, that youcollating all that and and
looking for themes and andwhat's common and what happens,
and yeah, yeah, yeah, I have aquestion for you about that.
(27:55):
How would you coach somebodywho, between because thinking
about all of that, I mean youwhen you know it's not gonna, or
I guess early on, you'rethinking I'm, I'm wondering if
you're, if one's thinking, hey,I'm not going to just get out
there and be vulnerable witheverybody, because I'll have, as
Bernie Brown calls it, I'llhave a vulnerability hangover
(28:17):
every morning.
Yeah, because I'm doing it sooften, won't be as vulnerable
anymore.
Yeah, right, comes in andthey're sitting like this and
you know, like closing theirbody language and not hardly
talking.
And how many kids do you have?
Enough, you know, or that couldnot be.
How?
(28:38):
How would you coach somebody to, to to find that balance?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
to where they be a little bit more comfortable
opening up on those days versusself-protection versus
self-protection.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I mean, would you suggest to people to be
protective in the beginning,would you?
I don't know?
What would your sage wisdom onthat be?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, that's a great question.
I probably erred on the being alittle more open and being a
little more out there, becausethat's just kind of my
personality.
I can pull that off and itdoesn't.
(29:25):
It does get tiring over timebecause you feel like you're
having the same conversationsover and over and over again.
And one of the things we runinto at least I ran into an
awful lot was people who werecoached to get out there dating
by a friend.
One of their kids wrote theirprofile and you'd get on a date
(29:47):
with them and they'd own up toit.
They'd say you know, this isthe first time I've been out and
I've tried this and I'm justnot ready and I can't tell you
the dozens and dozens and dozensof times that happened.
And so you do have.
There are a lot of people thatbecause they've been hurt,
probably in the past in arelationship, they're still
carrying some woundedness around.
(30:08):
Probably in the past in arelationship, they're still
carrying some woundedness around.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
And that's why I think and I talk about it in the
book those those first twophases.
Before you get started dating,you got to work on yourself and
do some internal healing, somecore work, and but a lot of
people they skip that.
They're going to think datingis going to solve my woundedness
(30:32):
and it's just kind offrustrating more and more.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
That makes so much sense because you're right,
regardless of why you findyourself in this place at this
time of life, where you're outdating, whether it's through
going through a divorce, whetherit's being a widow or a widower
, there's something there thatyou went through that you've got
to.
You're suggesting, and I'magreeing, that you've got to
(31:01):
sort out.
You have to.
I always say you have to findme before I can bring me to we.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's exactly right me towe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'sexactly right.
And for, obviously, if amarriage ends in death, that's
one set of circumstances andthere'll be grief and there'll
be loss and there's that dynamic.
If a marriage is going to endthrough a divorce, then there's
some some fracturing there.
(31:29):
There's some woundedness thereWell early woundedness there,
well early on in my divorceadjustment.
I'm an expert at talking aboutwhat my spouse did that ruined
the marriage and I've got thatnarrative down, pat.
Well, if you do your work, thenarrative you really get is your
own narrative.
(31:50):
This is what I did that led tothe.
This is what I contributed tothe failure of that thing.
And if I don't have thatnarrative, if I haven't owned my
own story of what mywoundedness is, there's a real
strong likelihood I'm going togo out, get on match and repeat
it all over again and I'm goingto find myself, you know, back
(32:15):
as one woman said.
She said I've been marriedthree times, but it's the same
man, just in a different body.
He said my man picker is broken.
Yeah Well, she finally decidedshe was going to do her work.
So yeah, I agree with you 100percent on that do her work.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
So, yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent on
that.
Yeah, cause what is it?
It's?
The divorce rate now for firstmarriages is about roughly 50%,
for second marriages it'sroughly 60% and for third
marriages it's roughly 75%,correct?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, yeah Just going on on that thing.
Right.
Going on on that thing, it's doyour work.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Do your work.
Yeah, I love what you're sayingabout one of the ways that we
can understand, as a person'sout there and you know, enjoying
the that dating process andhopefully they are enjoying that
dating process.
They are enjoying that datingprocess but they're enjoying
that dating process.
One of those cues to look foris is if everything's
(33:14):
externalized, that hey, you knowmy husband or my, you know my
ex-husband or my ex-wife or youknow anything, that's always
that's externalizing it out tothem and you don't hear it.
Coming back to what was mycontribution, even if your
contribution was 5%, yeah, stillthe thing that I can own.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yeah, yeah, my contribution may have been.
I just didn't see it.
It was there in black and white.
I just didn't recognize it ordidn't want to look at it.
Okay, well, that says somethingabout me.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
I know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeahthat's.
Do you think that there'sspeaking of divorce and widowing
?
Do you think that there is?
Did you?
I don't know if you datedwidows, but I'm curious if you
found in your experience andresearch that dating someone who
(34:11):
had been through a divorce wasdifferent than dating somebody
who had been widowed orwidowered.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And I drove up there and her exhad had been a college
administrator and I was acollege administrator at that
time, so we had a lot of thingsin common.
And I drove up and we were at aMexican restaurant, just met
her and we had been talking fora few hours and whatever.
And she looked at me and shesaid I can't, I can't do this.
(35:01):
And you know, we talked laterand she just said getting out
there and dating has helped meunderstand.
I'm just, I'm not over him.
So the grief hadn't workedthrough.
And so, yeah, I ran into womenwho they'd had the love of what
I call is they had their love oftheir love of their life, and
(35:24):
that was it.
Then.
The other one, though that wasreal interesting was you'd run
into women who had been marriedto one kind of guy I talk about
in the book.
There was a lady I knew yearsago and she was married to an
engineer and he was, you know,buttoned down in Alan Edmonds
shoes and real conservative, andhe was buttoned down in Alan
Edmunds' shoes and realconservative and she was too to
match that.
And then he passed away, realsuddenly, and she shows up with
(35:48):
this guy from South Americawho's just flamboyant and hairy
and just out there and all ofher friends were going.
She's lost her mind.
Well, no, she just shifted thattemplate of attraction.
She was very broad for her and,being a widow, let some new
(36:13):
parts of her personality comeout and be reinforced.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
That's so interesting because, you know, we, we see
that in our, our offices, right,and and people do, especially
the family members are thinking,oh my gosh, like you said, they
have lost their ever lovingmind.
And it's like, no, I do thinkthat there is a certain point of
being a widow or a widower, Ifthere, if, if you were married
(36:43):
to, like you said, the love ofyour life.
There is a certain that, thatchapter that closes off and says
, okay, I don't want to findsomebody.
That's the same Like you weresaying about this woman that you
were dating, that was a nurse,and that you know all these
things that you all enjoyedtogether, but you were way too
similar to this, that she lost.
(37:06):
And so there's this whole ideaof looking for where am I on the
spectrum of life and what do Ienjoy?
And it's like, had that, lovedit, it was amazing and I don't
want to have it again.
It's almost like this is, Ihope, isn't irreverent, but it's
like it's.
It's a, it's a terrible analogyand my apologies, but it's like
(37:29):
having a, this amazing meal andexperience, and it's recreated.
It's like no, no, no, no, no, Idon't want to recreate that.
That was too amazing, tooperfect.
Don't try it.
So, while that was in a Frenchrestaurant, let's go to a
Brazilian steakhouse and let'stry it that way.
(37:49):
So I get what you're sayingInteresting, but what do you?
What do you see that similarlywith?
With women who have gonethrough a divorce?
Or would you say there's reallyno pattern there?
Women who have gone?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
through a divorce, or would you say there's really no
pattern there?
Well, yeah, with the divorcethere, of course, if so many of
the divorce people, men andwomen, they well, you know this
from transition work they wantto run through the ending, get
through, get through the divorceas quick as they can.
you know, put a profile outthere, get back out dating,
(38:22):
because their friends are saying, you know, as soon as you can
get dating, you'll get tofeeling better, and they skip
over looking at what happened inthe marriage, what happened to
them going through that, endingbeing alone, learning to be
alone, is a really good thingand, you know, it's like Murray
(38:44):
Bowen said a real balancedperson can be separate and
together and be whole.
In that, well, he was exactlyright.
And so the divorce people.
A lot of times they'll run out,they'll date real quick and
then they'll get paired up withsomeone who's not good for them,
have a bad experience, and thennow you've got the divorce and
(39:07):
you've got this bad datinghistory lapped on top of each
other.
And so what I try and getpeople to do is slow this thing
down a little bit.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
Give yourself some time and give yourself some room
to breathe a little bit andfigure out who you are and then
what you're looking for.
Yeah, yeah, because that mayebb and flow, that may change,
that may, as you walk throughthe whole idea of self-discovery
.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's what I call that pocketlist of non-negotiables.
What can you put on a three byfive card that you have to have
in a relationship?
Well, chances are, what thatlooks like when you're 25 is
very different from what itlooks like when you're 55.
(39:55):
Or it can look different fromthe divorce to the time that
you're starting to date again.
Well, that's a really goodthing, it means I know myself
better.
Or it can look different fromthe divorce to the time that
you're starting to date again.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Well, that's a really good thing.
It means I know myself better.
How would you capture forsomeone the idea of healthy
expectations?
Because, you're right,expectations change in the
different seasons of life.
How would you capture, or whatwould you advise in, healthy
expectations for people in thisstage of life?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
rematching with somebody.
Yeah well, those expectationsare to your point you made a few
minutes ago.
You have children, you havefamilies, you have lots of
people involved generally in aperson's life, and so those
expectations are generally goingto be a bit more complex than
they would be when a person's 20or 25 years old.
(40:52):
And so it's me allowing theother person to have their
complexity and them allowing meto have my complexity.
It's a dumb illustration, butit's like when I pulled up
(41:14):
Lisa's profile it said you know,I have a long haired
dachachshund and we're a packagedeal.
Okay, well, I come with threecops, we're a package deal, so
we figure out how to dogs andpolicemen.
Okay, well, that's ourcomplexity and it's learning to
(41:37):
give grace and space for thoseimportant parts of that person's
life.
And saying I'm going to love Iwas like she did I'm going to
love your cops and I'm going totell her I love your dachshund
and we're going to figure outhow to move forward with that.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Yeah, it sounds an awful lot like knowing yourself
well enough to know.
Can I give you this flexibility?
Yeah, because I may not be intolong hair dachshunds and you
may not be into the stress ofwhat it means to have, you know
three very, very, very closeloved ones who risk it for the
(42:22):
community on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
There's that flexibility of you're worth it
Therefore, or I'll, I'll, I willhold hold back is probably, but
I will not press forward withjudgment and say, oh, I'm out, I
don't think I can do that Now.
If it's, if it's like I'm justthinking about, like my wife is
definitely allergic to cats andif for some reason, she found
(42:48):
herself later in life dating ifsomebody had a cat, that'd be a
deal breaker because shecouldn't shake it.
Be flexible in that.
But other things there, thereare other people, there are
other themes that I think youknow.
We think, oh, I'd never do thisor I'd never date somebody like
this.
Where it's like, if it's not amoral or a legal or a ethical
(43:11):
issue, yes, let it, let it.
You're saying kind of, let itcoast for a minute, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, yeah, and that was one of the things that I.
I don't know that I dideverything right in the dating
period, but one of the thingsthat I did do was I was open to
a wide variety of possibilities.
I dated a couple of ladies thatwere Jewish and their families
(43:42):
welcomed me into their familiesand were just fabulous people.
Some of my favorite times werewith them.
Dated women who were, you know,highly educated, like I am, and
then went out with a lady whowas a truck driver across the,
(44:12):
who was nothing like me.
But they were interesting peopleand they all had interesting
stories, and it was good for meto broaden myself out.
I'm going to throw a questionat you, which is do you find
because you mentioned a momentago rigidity versus flexibility
Do you think that that's aproblem that we encounter as we
(44:33):
age, a tendency toward morerigidity?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I do, I do, and I'm curious if you found the same
thing.
I think that we, you know, asour, as our brain pairs down to
the things that we utilize overand, over and over again, our
brains become more efficient,which is a really nice design.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
With that, I think it lends, it can lend itself to us
becoming not as flexible, alittle more rigid, which I don't
think serves us well those weremy least favorite experiences
dating.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
The more rigid a person was, the less I had in
common with them, because I livein a gray area, we work in a
gray area, we don't work inblack and white, and I like
complexity and I find that rulesare great, but there's a lot of
exceptions in life as well, andI just encountered a lot of
real rigid people that I thinkwere going to be alone for a
(45:49):
long time Unless they foundsomebody that thought just like
the way they did.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Well, and yeah, that's an interesting thought,
because what I hear from peoplethat tend to have a little bit
more of a rigid mindset and Idon't think it's everybody, but
it is like, oh, the pool isdrying up, there's not as many
great people to choose from, andI keep thinking to myself you
know, I know so many people thatare really fantastic people and
(46:16):
maybe they're not your cup oftea, but is tea the liquid that
you demand every time?
I mean, you know, is it couldcould there be, you know, a
flexibility to find somebodythat is Maybe just a skosh
different than you originallythought that you needed?
And it's as you've as you'vetalked throughout this time, and
(46:43):
it's as you've as you've talkedthroughout this time that's
what I'm hearing you say is thatyou went out on this quest,
this adventure, and it's notnecessarily, yes, it was to find
a mate, yes, it was to find,but it was more about finding
there's also, it seems to melike it was also an internal
quest of learning more about youwhile you learn more about
(47:03):
other people.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, that's exactly right.
I made the decision early oninto the divorce adjustment.
I was going to embrace any kindof therapy or self-discovery or
book or seminar, you name it.
If it was put in front of meand there was something I could
learn from that, I was going to.
I was just going to flat do it,because how can you be an
(47:28):
ethical clinician and not dothat?
You know you can't look atyourself in the mirror and it
was a marvelous.
It was a marvelous learningexperience.
I'm not at all the same personI was 20 years ago because of
having gone through all this,but that's one of the same
person.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I was 20 years ago because of having gone through
all this, but that's one of thethings that I love most about
you, or one of the many things Ilove most about you is this
internal drive to constantlylearn.
You're an eternal learner andit just it adds a complexity and
a dynamic to who you are.
That is wonderful andfascinating and, I think,
(48:03):
exciting because it's an event.
It's like we get to doco-adventures.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, very much so.
Well, you're the same way.
You're an explorer and youreyes light up whenever there's a
new idea and you're like, let'sgo for it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
All of our fun discussions?
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Well, is there anything thatyou want to leave these
listeners with this book?
I mean, look, pick it up, it'srematch love in the extended
adulthood and where can peoplepick this up?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
yeah, it's on amazon, it's on barnes and noble uh
websites, walmart, so it's allthe big distributors.
And, yeah, love to hearfeedback from folks how
different thoughts differentlike it's.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
it's like a it's um, it's like a window into the, the
experience.
You know, when you, when yousay I said the other day I said
(49:11):
I would love to be a fly on thewall of that experience.
This is a fly on the wall ofthat experience and there's so
many great stories in here, it'sso well-written.
Everybody needs to go pick thisthing up and understand either
what your friends are goingthrough or how to go through
this in a really, really healthymanner.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
So Don thank you for writing this.
Well, thank you and thanks forletting me do this with you.
This has been so much fun.
Thank you If you found value indo this with you.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
This has been so much fun.
Thank you.
If you found value in ourdiscussion and wish to uncover
more about the fascinating worldof mental wellness, don't
forget to subscribe to thepodcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
(50:03):
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
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