Decoding the Enneagram's Intelligence Centers

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In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long is joined again by Certified Enneagram Coaches Dayna Corley and Jeddy Bowen of Telos Consulting for a deeper look into the Enneagram's three intelligence centers—head, heart, and gut. Together, they unpack how each center shapes our reactions, relationships, and paths to growth.

Whether you're new to the Enneagram or looking to deepen your self-awareness, this conversation offers powerful insight into the way we think, feel, and move through the world.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and today we'rediving even deeper into the
Enneagram, one of our mostpopular topics.
Alongside two incredible guests, I'm joined by Dana Corley and
Jetty Bowen, both certifiedEnneagram coaches and co-owners

(00:22):
of Telos Consulting.
Jetty is also a therapist hereat Restoration Counseling.
Dana and Jetty bring years ofcombined experience in
counseling, coaching andspiritual formation and together
we're exploring how eachEnneagram type shows up in real
life Relationships, stress,growth and everything in between

(00:45):
.
Whether you're new to theEnneagram or you've been
studying it for years, thisepisode is full of rich insights
to help you better understandyourself and the people around
you.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Welcome Dana and Jetty.
Back to Rest, to restoration onthe couch.

(01:05):
Our first episode.
We covered sort of the ins andthe outs of the Enneagram.
You guys went, you ladies wentthrough all the different
numbers, the one through nineand um, but it was a hit.
People love it.
We got a lot of positivefeedback.
So we wanted to have you backto kind of go deeper, because
there's so many more questionsthat come from the Enneagram and

(01:28):
that's honestly that's some ofthe criticism of the Enneagram
is it's so difficult.
But in my mind that's part ofthe beauty of the Enneagram is
that we are so complex.
Therefore, the complexity ofthe Enneagram, I feel like,
replicates or representshumanity so much more accurately

(01:49):
, or people so much moreaccurately.
So welcome back.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Thank you, we're so glad to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Thank you for having us back, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
So let's do a deeper dive into the Enneagram.
Where would you recommend westart with that deeper dive?
What would be something thatwould be, you think, pivotal for
our listeners to understand, tounfold the Enneagram for them.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
So one of the areas of the Enneagram that's critical
for us to understand ourselvesand one another is understanding
one of the triads called thethree centers of intelligence.
And I want to just remindeverybody that the Enneagram is
simply a mapping system designedto explore our interior

(02:38):
infrastructure in order tobecome aware of the ways that we
don't live out of the truth ofour being, the essence of who
God made us to be.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
I like that.
I like that visual of themapping system.
That's really cool, so say moreabout that.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
About the mapping system.
Yeah Well, that's one of thereasons that it probably seems
complex, also because there areso many different layers to it,
and the only way we actually getto the place of transformation
is by observing ourselves withhonesty in a variety of ways of

(03:22):
our being.
So we take in information, weprocess that information, we
then engage with thatinformation and move into action
.
So this mapping system is basedon our thinking, our feelings
and our action, or our doing,and the three centers of

(03:42):
intelligence are actually whatbear out the type.
So these three centers is theway one habitually responds to
the world around them, and whichintelligence center is going to
be the one they move out ofwhich one is the main drive for

(04:05):
that personality.
So even the arrangement of thenumbers on the diagram are very
specific, based on the center ofintelligence that they fall
into.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
So it's almost like a dominant throwing arm.
It's like whether it'sintellectual thinking, whether
it's emotional feeling orwhether it's behavior through
the doing.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
So the body center, the gut center, is based out of
the root brain, it's based outof the brainstem, it's the human
instincts that are felt in thebody.
It includes the five senses,and so that is what propels us

(04:50):
to action.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
And so that that's the what we call the gut center.
This is where our instincts are, that dominant, throwing arm
kind of like you described, andthis is how we receive
information in the world, andthe numbers that make up that
center are the eights, nines andthe ones.
And so she said this is thebrain stem dominant, which is
also referred to as ourreptilian brain, right Like

(05:14):
those instinctual drives.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
So, so I have a question for you about this.
When, when you're, when we'retalking about our dominant
throwing arm, I know we comeinto the world a certain way.
Right, we come into the worldformed and shaped and
predetermined with a personality, with a style, with an essence.
But we also know that it's likegenetics, but we also have

(05:39):
epigenetics that go on top ofthat which really encompasses
the environment, that go on topof that which really encompasses
the environment.
So how then, before we get toodeep into these, how then do
like, if someone comes in andhas a say, a traumatic birth or
a traumatic childhood, how doesthat impact these, these, this
triad?

Speaker 2 (05:59):
So that's a great question, and the reality of all
of the development of ourpersonality is influenced by all
of our experiences impact thepersonality itself in its
development, but the belief isthat we are imbued by our

(06:30):
Creator with a particularessence of who he made us to be
and how the image of God in eachof us manifests itself in order
to create a more beautifulworld and community of of
humanity.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
That I I appreciate that, because I think now we're
going to go over the river andthrough the woods but I promise
we'll end up at grandma's herebut there's an, there is this,
this, this essence that you'redescribing right, and that, this
, that, that trauma.
I think we all would agree thattrauma doesn't change the
essence of who we are, but italters us in ways that are

(07:13):
really painful.
And it's like I think about,like we have, like in sleep, we
have a chronotype which meansit's the way that our rhythms
work in our body and there maybe some that are early to bed,
some that are moderate bedtimeand some that are late.
They're just late night out,night owls.
There we go, and that flows ona genetic sort of a

(07:37):
predetermined, and so, yes, wecan force somebody to go to bed
earlier, but it's going toimpact their REM.
And we can ask somebody to stayup later, but it's going to
impact their REM.
And we can ask somebody to stayup later, but it's going to
impact their deep sleep, but itdoesn't change their chronotype.
And that's what you're sayingis, this doesn't change the
essence of who we are, it it?

(07:57):
But it impacts us in that styleof how um we show up in the
world?
Okay.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, that's a great example that we have different
circadian rhythms.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Right.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
And so same with personality, and I think that's
part of the uniqueness thatGod's given each of us.
But they are impacted by all ofour experiences.
And in the Enneagram worldthere's a belief that what
happens because of ourexperiences, and in the
Enneagram world there's a beliefthat what happens because of
our experiences, through ourenvironment, through the culture
, fill in the blank, thatthere's a disconnect from the

(08:33):
truth of our being and the egotakes over and filters the world
through a distorted lens inorder to figure out how to
survive in the world.
And so it's.
The personality is developedout of the ego.
The essence doesn't have to bedeveloped like that.

(08:54):
It is who we are.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
And would you define for our listeners what you're
describing as the ego?

Speaker 2 (09:02):
The ego, to me, is the mechanisms that we use for
survival in order to protectourselves from getting hurt like
the defenses like the defenses,in order to promote ourselves,
to have significance and worthand value, because we've lost
the connection with the truth ofour being that says we're
inherently valued because we'remade in the image of God and we

(09:25):
are completely andoverwhelmingly, unconditionally
loved, no matter what.
But we've lost that connection,so we have to prove ourselves.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yeah, yeah, I would say.
Just another kind of term weuse for ego would be adapted
self, like that adapted versionof us, how we've learned how to
survive, and the false self,that adapted version of us how
we've learned how to survive andthe false self.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Okay, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, the reason why I ask
is because I know that there's.
There's Freud's term ego,there's the Enneagram term of
ego, there's, we use that, andthen then then there's sort of
the colloquial term of ego,which they all mean something to
me a bit different and I likethe nuance to make sure that
this is not misunderstood.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
No good clarification , Thanks yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
So, so we have the gut.
So there's the triad, there'sthree.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Yes, okay.
So so after the gut, the gutagain is made up of the eights,
nines and ones.
Then we have the heart triad.
This is our feeling center, sothese people take information in
through feelings.
First, right, this is calledthe heart center, and they are
made up of the twos, threes andfours, so we're basically just
going along the grid of theEnneagram right Clockwise, and

(10:39):
this is, as we described, thegut center being reptilian brain
or brainstem kind of dominant.
That's where they receiveinformation.
The heart center is receivinginformation really on the right
hemisphere of the brain, whichis made up of our emotion.
That's our emotion center.
It's also our relational center, and so people in the heart
center, they are really focusedon how others experience them,

(11:04):
and relationships, relationshipsare paramount to them.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
So the third one is the head center, also called the
thinking center, and this isborn out of the area of our
brain, the left hemisphere, alsocalled the neocortex or
cerebral cortex, and people inthis center experience the world
through their thoughts andthrough thinking their way
through the world.

(11:29):
Now we're going to get morespecific in all of these, but
good that that's overall, thethree different ones, right?
and so when they're organized inthe enneagram grid, on that, on
that diagram, that's to to showso much about the Enneagram,
the gut, eight, nines and onesagain, they are that body center

(11:52):
that feels their way throughthe world through their senses.
The twos, threes and fours feeltheir way through the world
through their emotions and inregard to relationships.
And the gut center is moreprimal in its orientation.
And then the head center ismoving through the world using

(12:18):
the thinking, reasoning, logicalskills to make sense of all the
information that they're takingin, reasoning, logical skills
to make sense of all theinformation that they're taking
in.
So when we get into the detailsof it, we'll explain why they
do these things.
But that's the basic premise ofwhat we're talking about today
and how we're different inreceiving the information that
comes to us.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
What's so interesting about this is in one of the
things that one of the thingsthat I want to do with this.
I don't know if I'm right aboutit or not, but you think about
the eights, nines and ones.
I almost said eights, nines andtens, but it's the eights,
nines and ones that are thefeeling, the perceiving To me.

(12:59):
I look at that and think thatis focused on intra-personal
awareness.
It's like a self-awareness, butI don't, I know that in an
unhealthy space there's notgoing to be that self-awareness.
And then the twos, threes andfours, focused on that
interpersonal awareness which Ibelieve those numbers can lose

(13:19):
their sense of self and so thatwouldn't be the effective
interpersonal.
And then the five, six andsevens, all in the thinking.
And to me I would say, is thatan oscillating and a pendulating
, going from from self out toothers and then back.
But I, I'm going to hold thatthought.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well, that's really a fascinating yeah, that's a
fascinating way to look at it.
Any way to look at it, thereality of each center is
there's a relationship to agreat need For the eights, nines

(13:59):
and ones.
The need is for power andcontrol and to have autonomy.
And so there is this sort of adisconnect, a repression of the
emotional center in order tomove into the action center.
In doing to get the need met ofpower and control, of
maintaining autonomy forthemselves.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
So that's their basic drive If you're in the gut
center.
How would that bear out?
What's an example of that?

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Well, let me just clarify real quick it's not a
power and control of anyone else, right?
She said autonomy, so it's moreof maintaining this sense of
control of themselves andknowing that other people aren't
going to control or tell themwhat to do, so they can be
extremely stubborn.
That could be an example, right, like you're not going to tell
me what to do, and if you do,depending on my type, I may act
like I'm going to do it, butreally not Right?

Speaker 1 (14:50):
What would that be?
Would that be more of a nine?

Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, I'm thinking more of a nine, you know say oh
sure, that sounds great.
And then they disappear and thetask never gets done.
Yes, yes, the task never getsdone.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
It never gets done.
Yes, yes, whereas, oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Well, when this type's relationship to anger or
rage is the most comfortable,the most experienced emotion
that eights, nines and ones have, Because when their autonomy

(15:27):
gets threatened, when they fearlosing that control, then that
anger and rage is right there totake over in order to try to
prevent that from happening,like as a protective mechanism.
Absolutely, and so the eightshave this great need not to be
vulnerable.
They have a great need to bestrong, and so they're
immediately.
When they sense that theirautonomy and their control of
themselves, their space, theirenvironment, whatever it is, is

(15:48):
being threatened, there's ananger that arises in order to
move them into action, to getthat back for themselves anger
is secondary.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
And there are people who vehemently disagree with me
on this and they say well,you're reducing anger, and I'm
like I don't believe that sayingit's secondary is reducing it.
I'm saying that there'ssomething more primal underneath
that, where it's a sense ofsomething that puts us on our
heels as opposed to pushes usinto action, and that that anger
is there really to move us intoaction, and so that is there
really to move us into action.

(16:26):
And so that's like and allpeople experience anger.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
That's just a common emotion.
We all have it.
We can't avoid it.
But these three types, it'salways underneath the surface
and so it's always there.
And so these types, theyreceive the world through the
present orientation towards time.
They're receiving it all now inorder to get what they have to

(16:50):
now.
So that's another thing is thereceiving of the information,
depending on, the center ofintelligence is going to have an
orientation towards time andfor the gut-body triad, that
orientation towards time is inthe present.
They want it now and dependingon whether you're an eight, nine

(17:13):
or one, getting into thespecifics of each of that, that
anger is going to manifest andgo outward.
For the eight, they're going toexternalize that anger onto
others and that's why eightshave so much energy.
They move into a room andpeople kind of know the eights
are here.
The eights can be veryintimidating because of the

(17:36):
energy underneath the surface,of that.
I got to protect, I got to bestrong.
I'm going to be confident, I'mgoing to take over and take
control.
Again, it's not aboutcontrolling others, it's being
in control.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
For themselves, for themselves.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yes, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Whereas the nine is going to experience that anger
differently, or manage thatanger differently, so they don't
express the anger quite thesame.
The nines are really justtrying to keep it at bay, so
they're almost playing offenseand defense at the same time,
and so, because their primaryneed is to maintain a sense of
peace, and so that's their wayof doing it is to almost just

(18:15):
work to forget the anger.
And then what happens, though,is they'll then have these
little spurts right, because wecan't just live life denying our
emotions.
They're going to come outsomewhere.
They don't go away right.
And we can't just deny it.
Live life, denying our emotions.
They're going to come outsomewhere.
They don't go away Right.
And so for nines they'll havethese little like volcanic
moments kind of.
And it really surprises peoplebecause it seems so out of
character for them because theycan go such a long time just

(18:37):
going with the flow and thingsare fine, until they have a
little explosion, Right.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, and it's like you're going along thinking, oh,
that's a beautiful mountain,whereas in reality it's a
volcano.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
There's something brewing.
When the top blows, it's likewhoa.
I had no idea.
Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, so much of their energy is spent keeping
things away and keeping thingssuppressed down in them, Inside
of them right, and that's whyyou don't see a lot of energy
coming from the nines.
They're using it all internally.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Right, there's an internal tug of war Right, and
then the one, because to me whenI see the gut triad I think
eights, nines and ones couldn'tbe more different, and so that
has always been confusing to me.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Well, especially when it comes to the nine, because
they're in that action orientedcenter but you don't see them
necessarily taking actionquickly.
They certainly can, but theyjust have spent all their energy
inside that.
It actually takes the pressureof deadlines to move them into

(19:40):
action.
So it's easy for them to losethemselves in their desires,
because the greatest need ismaintaining the peace, because
maintaining that peace is reallyabout control too.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense.
And now we have the one.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
So then the ones repress their anger.
So for them their anger is theykind of shove it down and then
it comes out sideways usually asresentment.
And so for them their anger isthey kind of shove it down and
then it comes out sidewaysusually as resentment.
And so for ones a lot of timesthat anger that that she
described being just right atthe surface is really more
resentment, and so it comes outkind of sideways more like
passive aggression a lot oftimes.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
One of the things that's also important for the
eights, nines and ones in thebody triad is they have a
natural groundedness to theearth.
They are connected to nature ina more significant way than
several of the other numbers andit's important for them to move

(20:41):
in nature.
So that's also an aspect oftheir that body gut triad.
That's kind of important.
And exercising or going forwalks or hikes, even things like
fishing, it doesn't matter.
It's just that being connectedto the world around him is

(21:02):
really important.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
So that's so interesting because I have a
friend who's a nine and he isit's.
If you ever wonder what he'sdoing when he's not working,
it's always something outside.
And he just, if you listen tothe way he describes it, he
really is describing a groundingI wouldn't have, I wouldn't
have thought about it that wayuntil you're saying all of this,

(21:25):
but he really is describing agrounding.
Sense of this really helps mefeel back to myself.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
So yeah, that's interesting.
And being driven by that kindof primal instinct in the gut
triad, they're very aware ofwhere they are spatially.
So it makes sense right If youthink about it.
It makes sense on kind of aprimal level that this center of
intelligence is the mostfocused on, on kind of where
they are spatially and thatconnectedness to nature and the

(21:53):
earth.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
It's so funny when we talk about this because, being
connected to where you arespatially, sometimes as I move
through the world, I amdumbfounded as to how people can
run into you and I'm like didyou not see?
that I was literally right here,and I do think that there are

(22:25):
people that are repression offear, anger, hurt, trauma and
all this because they've livedso far outside of themselves.
But I'd be interested to do astudy on this to understand if
it is, if it truly is,consistent with these, these
intelligence centers and howpeople show up in the world.

(22:46):
Like if you're chronicallydepressed, you don't understand
your impact on the environment.
Is that more so with anotherpart of the triad than it is for
this one?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, that's a great question, Um, and I think it's
challenging too in the world welive in today, where there's so
many distractions that are rightat our fingertips, especially
our devices, that really do keepus from being aware in all the
intelligence centers, right,right, so yeah, it does still

(23:20):
that awake, alert and awareness.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
So, so, ok, so we have this gut triad, we have
this, where the, the approach tothe world is one of of more
perceiving than it is.
Uh, feeling or judging and thenmaybe judging is not the better
word, but thinking so it's,it's a lot of perception.

(23:43):
There's the eight that pusheslife out, or shouldn't say
pushes, but but moves throughlife on an outward basis, sort
of like a uh, what are thoseboats that that crack the ice?
Whatever, those are right.
They get they're moving throughas that sort of that visual.
Then you have the nines whofeel like they're having that
tug of war.
I was watching this video Idon't remember where, but of

(24:06):
these guys doing this tug of war, where they were like canoeing,
like there was a canoeing tugof war, and it was like the most
exhausting thing I'd ever seenin my life.
It was hilarious but it wasexhausting.
And when you're talking aboutnines.
To me that canoeing tug of waris.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
what is what it seems like you're describing?

Speaker 1 (24:25):
And then the ones it's like.
It's like when something comesin, it goes out like you're
saying, it goes out sideways.
It's, which is where thepassive aggressiveness can come
in.
Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
And a lot of it is because they sense their way
through the world.
So they're, they'reinstinctually knowing in their
knower, in their gut, what isright and what is wrong.
They, these numbers, tend to bemore black and white, some more
hardcore than others,especially like the ones,
because they really do seethere's a right and there's a

(24:58):
wrong, and there's this way todo it and there's that way to do
it way to do it and there'sthat way to do it.
Um, and so that is a veryintense pulling of where they
need to move into action.
And so, for those ones who takeon this huge responsibility of
wanting the world to be maderight, it's an, it's an

(25:21):
intensity that never dies withinthem, and the frustration is
that how come nobody else ishelping me put this world right?
Because they're idealists, theythink there is a way the world
should operate and should work,yes, and so they're constantly
striving for that, and thereality is there's never going

(25:43):
to be a perfect world untilJesus comes back.
There's never going to be aperfect human being until we've
left this body, and so learninghow to be okay with that.
Take care of the underdogs, theweak.
They have a very strongresponsibility to care for the

(26:18):
weak and the poor and to not letthem be taken advantage of in
life.
So that's always under there,driving that also, and these
numbers absorb in their bodywhere things aren't right in
their opinion.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Right, yeah, so what's the next intelligence
center we're going to tacklehere?
And, by the way, sorry tointerrupt the intelligence piece
.
To me, I don't want to likenthat to IQ.
To me, it sounds like whatwe're talking about with
intelligence is how do we ingestthe world?

(26:56):
Because we say emotion quotient, like the emotional
intelligence, like they're there.
In other other words,intelligence can span a whole
lot of topics.
Right, and so this is about theway that we show up in the
world, as you said at thebeginning.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
So okay, and, like you said in jest, because then
we get into other and we're notgetting into that today, but
then there's ways that we, youknow, actually move with that
information and that's going tolook different.
So, um, just think of of how weexperience information and how
we going to look different.
So, just think of how weexperience information and how
we take it in.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
There are so many wrinkles to the Enneagram.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
I know I love it.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
Keep going, this is wonderful.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
And the most important thing to remember is
the level of health that you'rereceiving that information,
because there is a moreintelligent way of sensing your
way through the worldinstinctually.
There is a more intelligent wayof sensing your way through the
world instinctually.
There is a more intelligent wayof using your intellect and
your education to process theinformation.

(27:54):
And there is a more intelligentemotional way to process it,
based on your own level ofhealth and awareness.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
Okay, are we ready for the next?

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Come on the next center.
Lay it on us.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
Okay, this is the heart center, right, or also
known as the feeling, emotion orrelational center.
Okay, it's made up of the twos,threes and fours and, just like
we talked about the gut center,having this, this primary need
or priority, which, for them, isthat controller autonomy?
For the heart center it is.
It's really that, like externalvalidation.

(28:27):
Okay, right, I, I am only asvaluable as you basically affirm
that I am, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
So going back to my hypothesis which again I still
don't know if this is anaccurate one is that idea of the
interpersonal meaning self plusothers?
It really does lose that sensethey are.
There's a danger to lose thatsense of self, to elevate the
other meaning.
I determine my value and worthby the environment, not by

(28:56):
what's intrinsic yes, okay, yes,that's what they struggle with
for sure um, so they.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
So again, they focus on relationships, the success in
relationships, and this is madeup in the right hemisphere of
the brain, right.
This is our feeling center the,the twos.
So we're gonna talk about howthey manage this.
The feeling which I did notdescribe, the feeling the most
accessible, familiar emotion forthe heart center is shame or

(29:26):
sadness.
It's going to be manageddifferently for each of the
three types.
So the twos they'reexternalizing that.
They are, um, uh, the sadnessthat they experience actually
moves them outward, and so twosare much more focused on what
other people need and what otherpeople are experiencing than

(29:48):
themselves.
The threes are kind of similarto the nine, trying to just keep
it at bay and are again kind ofplaying offense and defense at
the same time and forget theshame.
And what happens with thethrees is they are really the
type that essentially losesthemselves.
Oftentimes this like core ofwho I am.
I don't really know who that is, because it's I am what you

(30:11):
want me to be essentially.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
And so we know that twos are more of the connector
or the helper, and threes aremore of the performer.
And so in the two is it aboutlike it's all about, the
relationship, but in the three,what would?
What would that be?
I mean it's is it about therelationship or is it about the
affirmation of you are good.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
It's more of.
It's more about the affirmationand that validation of I am
worthy.
Right Threes equate love withadmiration.
So I'm more focused on beingadmired.
So it's more of how you see merather than the relationship
itself.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Okay, and then for the fours.
They internalize that shame.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
So, going back to the three, sorry.
So when you said, does thatmake sense?
It makes perfect sense becauseit's it's really about in an
unhealthy way.
It could become about a facade.
Yes, therefore, I'm going to todress the part instead of
authentically being the part,and if that's what you want,
that's what I'll give you.
If that's not what you want, Iwill work to figure out what you

(31:23):
want, which I would imaginemakes other people feel very
loved and wanted and like, if weget into a potentially
unhealthy dance, that could bevery affirming for both parties
in a potentially negative way.

Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, the relationship itself is a
performance right when we're notaware, and again, this is why
they lose themselves.
If I'm always changing my maskfor what the environment
requires or demands for me to beadmired, then who am I below
the surface?

Speaker 1 (31:54):
So maybe Eminem was a three.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
The whole lose yourself, or maybe he was in the
heart triad he was in the hearttriad and I think it's
important to remember that thosein the heart triad.
They experience the shame andsadness because early on they
didn't feel like they were lovedfor who they were.
So all three of the typeswithin this triad learned to

(32:20):
perform just simply in adifferent way and went after
what they thought they needed inorder to get that love.
And so the sadness comes from.
Am I ever really loved for whoI am?

Speaker 1 (32:39):
So?
So here's my question to thatis is it a perception because of
the way that you arrive intothe world, the way that you,
just the essence of your beingin this triad is that is that
just simply how you receive theworld and therefore you

(33:00):
categorize it, even with the pot, in that manner, even with this
beautiful, positive intentionof the parent saying I don't
want you to perform for me, butI don't know that you're a three
.
Therefore I don't know how totell you that, so that it locks
in and connects and they youingested in that way.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yes, and I would agree with you on that.
I mean, you think about whatgets reinforced right and that
shapes us, and so I am a three.
As a three, I wouldn't describemy childhood as me feeling like
I wasn't loved at all, but whenI look back in yeah, but you're
awesome she is.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
But when I look back, and yeah, but you're awesome
she is.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
But when I look back, it's it's if you think about
everything that gets reinforced,it's all those, those inner
kind of motives in me thatalready existed.
I wasn't aware of, of course,right, Right, but I was able to,
kind of, you know, meetexpectations and of course
that's what gets reinforced isable to kind of you know, meet
expectations and of coursethat's what gets reinforced, or

(34:03):
for a two, for example.
They're reinforced by howhelpful they can be and how such
a helper, yeah, and howthoughtful and so, yeah, I
totally agree with what withwhat you just said.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
So these, these numbers Taken the world through
a very personal position.
I am in the gut triad, myhusband's in the three triad.
I hurt his feelings all thetime and I'm not intending to,
but it's all personal to him,right, because it's all through
the relational lens and am Iloved.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
And I want to also point out real quick, because we
did mention this with the gutthe way that we receive
information in this center is isoriented to the past, okay, so.
So, when you think aboutrelationally right like I, then
can be triggered by, oh, what Iexperienced back in high school
that felt so similar to this.

(34:57):
Do you know what I mean?
Right, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yes, and so how would you describe a four?
I don't want to overlook a four.
Thank you, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
So a four is again a performer for people to love
them for who they are, and theirvalue is authenticity.
Their value is uniqueness.
Because for that four, they seethat they're not enough.
They see that they don't havewhat it takes to be fully loved,

(35:24):
and so they have to in someways perform for that by being
special, by being unique anddifferent in order to be noticed
.
Because all of the types inthis need a lot of affirmation,
they need the validation thatthey are good, that they are
okay, that they are competent.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Fill in the blank Sure, because if I'm receiving,
if I am judging myself judgingis not the best word If I'm
evaluating myself by way of theexternal environment, then I
have to hear from thatenvironment on the regular.
Yes, but here's the questionthat I have about the fours is

(36:08):
to me, it seems logical that ifa four is known, then does the
four interpret being known as alack of uniqueness.
Therefore, it's almost liketrying to mix oil and water,
because if you know me, then didI lose my sense of unique

(36:29):
Because you now know?

Speaker 3 (36:32):
So that's a really good question, and there's a
challenge relationally with, Iwould say, four in particular.
But all of the numbers in thistriad is that kind of push and
pull dynamic and for the four,that shame communicates to them
that there is somethinginherently lacking in them.
And so there's this belief thatif you really knew me you

(36:53):
wouldn't love me because there'ssomething missing.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Perfect sense me.
You wouldn't love me becausethere's something missing.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Perfect sense, yeah, so that that desire for
authenticity is really a push me, pull me, because while they
want that, they're also afraidof that.
And again, in that, if youreally knew me and I wasn't as
special as I'm trying to makeyou believe I am, then I don't
really stand out, and then what?
But what they fail tounderstand is we're all unique

(37:21):
and authentic in the way Godmade us and we don't have to do
anything, perform any way inorder to be special and unique.
We already are.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yeah, I will tell you , there was a moment in my life
when somebody who not only do Iadmire, I probably slightly
idolize they said to mesomething to the effect of just
your presence alone is valuableto me and I was dumbfounded by

(37:53):
that.
But I was in a place thank Godto receive it and I was like,
wait a second.
Even our showing up has valueand I love that you're bringing
that out, especially about thistriad that relates to the world
through the feedback of theenvironment is it's just

(38:15):
bringing your authenticity tothe world, just being unique.
Hear that force, uniquely you,without doing anything special,
you are special.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
I think it's important also to highlight just
the giftedness and the beautythat that the differences of
each triad can bring.
Like when we talk aboutrelationships, right, how you
know, maybe there's acombination of someone in the
gut triad with someone in theheart triad, and what is that?
How does that play out?
And something that the hearttriad types can bring is an

(38:51):
awareness of how we impact thosearound us.
That does not come as naturallyfor those in the head or the
gut triad right.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
The other thing I would say is, just because
you're in the emotional triad inthe heart space doesn't mean
that you actually understand theemotions you're experiencing.
Again, that takes a level ofobservation and self-awareness
to be able to do that, and somuch of our emotions in that
triad are reactionary emotions.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
I'm glad you pointed that out, because everything
we're talking about is what wecame preloaded, prepackaged with
, and it's like, here is thisamazing, beautiful box of all of
these phenomenal things.
It's like, okay, we'll put ittogether and that's the
environment that helps you withthat or impedes you from that in

(39:46):
some way.
But it is not.
We don't come preloaded, readyto, we don't show up adults,
we're not fully cooked.
As a matter of fact and I foundthis really fascinating when I
learned this we are the onlyliving creature animal species,
whatever you want to call usthat fits your fancy that comes

(40:10):
to this world as vulnerable aswe do, that then grows to be as
independent as we can be.
So it's.
The span between birth andmaturity is the largest span in
the animal kingdom, and I alwaysliken that to the fact that we
were created designed forrelationship and intimacy, and

(40:34):
that dependence at birthrequires that we attach to
somebody, right, and andhopefully it's a caregiver and
hopefully it's a lovingcaregiver, right.
That brings us up and shows ushow we work through these themes
, because, like you're saying,you're a three jetty and, like
you, you wouldn't characterizeyour, your childhood, as
anything missing.

(40:55):
Right, and we walk through,even as a parent.
I'm thinking of one of my kidsthat I'm thinking may be a three
, and it's like they perform, heperforms and it's like, okay,
but I don't want to makeperformance the only thing we
talk about, and so it's being,it's having that awareness of
like, okay, how do we unpack allof this, this amazing goodness?

(41:18):
So I'm glad you, I'm glad youall brought that up.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
That's good.
We have.
A one of our children is nineand um.
He happens to be a collegiateathlete and so he performs, and
when he might not do as well ashe would have liked my heart
even though I'm not in the hearttriad I want to reiterate over

(41:41):
and over and over again thatyour worth and value has nothing
to do with what you do on thetrack.
It has everything to do withyour inherent worth and value,
made in the image of a lovingGod, and you are a child of God,
the King of Kings, and he neverhas a problem with that because
he's not a two three or four.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
Does he want to?

Speaker 2 (42:01):
perform well, absolutely.
But his worth isn't tied to hisperformance.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah, there's not that.
Yeah, yeah, cool.
So are we ready to move to thethinkers, the?

Speaker 2 (42:14):
thinkers.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
I think before I am.
Who was that?
That wasn't.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Plato.
Who was that?
Yeah, who was that I should?
Plato.
Who's that?
Uh, yeah, who was that I should?
I probably was it.
Was it aristotle?
I was gonna ask, yeah I thinkit's aristotle.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
I think, therefore, I am um, yeah, yeah, I know
there's billy.
Eilish says it too, so I guessI'm gonna pull out all of my pop
culture this there you go umit's about where it ends.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
I can, you can, ok.
So the head center this is alsoknown as the thinking logic
reason center in the lefthemisphere of the brain, is made
up of the five, sixes andsevens, and so they they receive
information in their thoughtsfirst.
Right there they kind of livein their head, and their core

(42:56):
need that they prioritize isfeeling safe and secure, and so
that's what they're focused on,is making sure that that need is
met, and they go about it indifferent ways, of course, and
the most accessible emotionbecause they're focused on
security and safety is then fearand anxiety.
So they, like the others, theymanage this fear, anxiety

(43:20):
differently.
For the fives they internalizeit, they have we kind of refer
to it as their like inner castleis their, their headspace.
They just live there, they'rein their thoughts all the time,
and that is their way ofmanaging that fear is by
constantly thinking and tendingto that kind of inner world.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
I love the analogy of the castle, because castles are
so beautiful, which fives havesuch a beautiful mind?
But castles are also cold.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Yeah, and impenetrable Right.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
Right and and and yes , and hard and not soft and warm
, and so like, like you said,impenetrable.
And I'm not saying fives are,I'm saying that that brain space
can be for sure it's veryinteresting, especially for
somebody who has a child or apartner who, anyway, we'll get

(44:20):
to that yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, um, the six is externalized.
This fear, um, the sixes are uhafraid of themselves not being
prepared and they're also afraidof what the world has right.
So they're kind of planning forworst case scenarios, so kind
of like preppers.
Yes, like the nines and thethrees are doing this kind of
offense and defense.
At the same time, sixes arealso working really hard to keep

(44:44):
that at bay, and their way ofmanaging that is by looking
outward for some sense ofauthority that they can trust
and that that brings them thissense of security.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
What's so interesting about that is that the six
falls in the middle of thistriad, the nine falls in the
middle of that triad and thethree falls in the middle of
that triad, and it's like theyare the ones who are constantly
being pulled to each directionon either side of them that
those other numbers do.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
They utilize the gift of that intelligence center.
The least of the three numbersthe number that falls in the
middle of that triad utilizesthat intelligence center.
The least of the other twofascinating yeah and do we know
why?

Speaker 1 (45:33):
or is it just where it fell and how it was developed
?

Speaker 2 (45:45):
My guess is they utilize it the least because of
what drives them in their type.
So for that nine needing thatpiece at all costs, they are the
ones least oriented towardstaking action Okay.
Because they've spent all theirenergy just keeping everything
at bay and not rocking the boat.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
That not rowboat, but that boat tug of war is like
just so exhausting.
They want to just keep itsteady too.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
Don't send me to the rapids.
And then the threes, becausethey're so oriented towards
success and not failing theycan't allow any emotions to get
in the way of their productivity, and so they push those aside
and they don't experience theiremotions in a beneficial way.
And then for the sixes, becausethey're so oriented towards

(46:31):
solving the problems of theworld to keep it a safe and
secure place, they're constantlystrategizing and planning to
make sure that happens, thatthey overthink things, and so
they're over utilizing the giftof the intellect.
Rather than being at peace withtheir thoughts, they're
constantly going.
Their minds are never at rest.

(46:52):
So, that's my guess.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
So then, the sevens manage that fear and anxiety by.
They have a fear of their innerworld, and so they externalize
to avoid that essentially, andare always, always planning for
the next option.
Sevens have to have optionsbecause they're so scared of
being trapped in the negative.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Makes sense.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
So these people in the headspace use the future
orientation of time that drivesthem because they are so fearful
of what will be or what mightbe, and so they use their energy
strategizing and planning andusing logic and reasoning skills

(47:37):
in order to take in that dataand sort it and analyze it and
come up with the best plan tomitigate anything that could
cause instability, lack ofsecurity, and so that's how
their energy is often used.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
So it almost seems like the thinking like using the
left side is far more about adefense than it is about taking
the world in.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, I think that's true.
They also don't look at theworld when they're strategizing
and planning through any lens ofhow the relational aspect comes
in into it.
What does that have to do withmy plans?
How you feel about something.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
It's interesting that you're saying that this comes
out of the left hemisphere,because what we're finding with
the whole understanding thehemispheres better is that the
right is the bigger hemisphereand it is the um, the.
It gives a better overview.
When you're stuck in the lefthemisphere, you get really my.

(48:50):
The left hemisphere gets verymyopic on things and it grabs
things and it it doesn'tgeneralize very well.
The right takes it all in andgeneralizes.
The left does have emotion, butthat emotion is very tied to
very myopic things, very pointed, pinpointed things, and so it's

(49:10):
like this even before theunderstanding God, man.
That's why, again, this is oneof the fascinating things about
the Enneagram is all thesewrinkles as, as they are
undiscovered and as we discoveruh, neurology, neurochemistry,
neurobiology, all that goodstuff, the more we uncover it,
the more it proves out a lot ofthe really cool things that have

(49:32):
lasted for years and years andyears and millennia, anyway,
that this is very true, for thatthat this is called the head
triad.
It's myopic in fear.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah, yes.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Interesting yes.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Which is why they also can tend to overthink,
right this idea of overthinkingand kind of perseverating on
something more myopic orspecific.
They're going to be a littlemore prone to that than the
other triads.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
I do think it's probably important to clarify
that what we're talking about isour receiving the information
and our experiences through aparticular intelligence, but we
are utilizing all three of ourintelligences at all times.
It's simply that one isdominant, and so it colors the

(50:28):
way we react and engage theworld.
It doesn't mean that I neverhave emotions or use my emotions
in how I am integrating, so thesame for all.
It simply does bear out, though, that we are weaker in a
particular intelligence, that wehave not allowed to develop the

(50:52):
way the gift is supposed to beutilized.
The gift is supposed to beutilized.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Which makes sense because it's what our instinct
is, and I was, as I'm.
As you're describing this.
The visual in my mind is I waswatching a clip of Paul Skeens,
who those of you who are notbaseball fans, he is a pitcher
in the MLB.
A pitcher in the MLB.

(51:22):
He pitched for uh LSU when theywon the uh college world series
and he, he, he is a phenom,right Like he is.
He was drafted and then wentone of the few that went
straight into the, into the, tothe big leagues, and I was
watching him warm up and he's aright-handed pitcher and I

(51:43):
watched him throw right-handed.
I thought, well, that'sexpected.
And then I watched him turn andthrow left-handed.
Now, what I know about him and Iknew I kind of knew that this
was his approach because the guycan go.
He went in one of the collegeworld series games he threw,
went in one of the college worldseries games he threw I don't

(52:03):
know, maybe 80, 90, a hundredpitches, and he was still
hitting triple digits in the inin that I have a pitch count and
was injury free.
At least that was myunderstanding.
He was injury free why?
Because he was balanced and Iknew that his approach to his
throwing was always balanced.

(52:23):
It was not right side dominantI mean, I shouldn't say that it
is right side dominant.
However, it's always bringingin the left side to balance
things out.
And I love that you're sayingthis because, as I'm thinking,
I'm a seven and so, as I'mthinking through these things,
I'm like, yes, like I do thinkthrough a lot of things, but I
really perceive the world.
The world does come to methrough perceptions and feelings

(52:46):
and experiences, and I do sensemy way through things, but I do
also have a lot of ways that,OK, now that I feel this, now
what am I going to do?
And so there's a lot ofthinking that goes through that.
And I have a lot of feelings too.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
I have a whole lot of feelings.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
So it does show up, like we do show up in all three.
That's correct.
You will find, though, peoplein the headspace the fives,
sixes and sevens is they willoften, rather than feel their
emotions, they will think abouttheir emotions, and so the
response is often, when you asksomebody how they feel, they'll

(53:26):
often say, well, I think, andthen fill in the blank.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
That makes sense.
That's one of the things that Ithink you know.
I was drawn to this theorycalled CBASP it's Cognitive
Behavior, behavioral analysis,systems of psychotherapy and one
of the things that drew me toit was that it is a very
interpersonal experientialtheory, because my tendency

(53:54):
would be to get lost in talkingabout how a person experiences
the world.
What I realize is that wereally need to experience it.
I'm convinced that's why Jesusspoke in parables, I think in
analogies, because it helps meunderstand the world, because
then I can experience it andit's more meaningful.

(54:16):
And it's that moving outside ofthe head and moving into the
experience, I think, is thatthat's been a very powerful
thing for me.
And that's very cool and it'sfunny because, as I sit here and
think about this, we are allthree in the different triads.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yes, we're representing them.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Yeah, look at us represent, that's right.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
I like that.
I mean think about also whenyou're I mean any relationship
you have.
If you understand which centerof intelligence is their
dominant, you actually can useyour own intelligence to try to
come alongside of them andcommunicate differently, help

(54:57):
solve problems differently Evenyou guys as counselors how your
patient is able receiving theinformation that you're giving
them in a session, if they'vegot a lot of inertia to any kind
of doing, or if they are veryemotionally reactive and

(55:18):
whatever it may be.
Understanding that and helpingthem learn how to in some ways
disconnect from what's naturalto them and learn to utilize
skills to elevate the otherintelligence centers so they can
see in a more balanced waywhat's going on in their world.

(55:41):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yeah, that makes so much sense because you think
about, like, just from aphysical perspective, you know,
if's, if you're right, right,dominant, it's great to brush
your teeth right, we can allagree on that.
But it's great to brush yourteeth with your non-dominant
hand because in all that it doesfor you neurologically Right.

(56:04):
And so I remember when I I hurtmy shoulder, I tore things up
and couldn't throw a ball.
If I threw it, I had no controlover where it went.
And throwing batting practicefor my son and his teammates
when they were younger, they alljust knew, well, this guy's
going to hit me with thebaseball.

(56:25):
And I was always like, sorry,guys, I have a 50-50 shot of
where it's going to go.
And I thought to myself, wait,instead of being that guy that's
always going to hit the batter,why not learn to throw with
your left hand?
And it was funny because theboys were really encouraging as
I did that, because they alllaughed, because it had to be so
by the book, right, and I feltlike doing that caused me to be

(56:48):
more balanced.
Yes, and I think about, like,what you're saying is, can we do
those things that give us morebalance emotionally?
Because I think we were giventhe physical as a means of
understanding the metaphysical,and I think that understanding
the metaphysical in that way,it's, it's, it's.

(57:10):
It's such an open opportunityto say if, if, if fear is what
drives you and you're trying tomake sense of it, it's like,
okay, rather than having afuture orientation, can I
practice my sense of mindfulness, of having a present
orientation, and could this be amoment that I feel like is, as
I like to call them, these arePython moments, where it's like,

(57:32):
hey, I'm going to be squeezedhere and I don't like it, it's
uncomfortable, but can I makepeace and can I find something
potentially enjoyable about itin that, in that present moment,
so that I can then move throughit without pretending it's not
there, you know?

(57:53):
And then there's not that tugof war of like okay, I have to
be in reality, but reality sucks.
So let's get rid of reality,let's repaint it, and it's like,
no, let's experience reality.
And what inside of reality canI make peace with?

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Yes, that's good.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
That is good and it's the only way through it, right?
And I think it's alwaysimportant, when you understand
your dominant center, to thenunderstand kind of that stacking
order, so that instead of thisconcept of you know I need to
lessen how much I rely on mydominant center.
Why don't we focus more onelevating what's repressed, so

(58:33):
being in the head space, kind oflike you were just saying,
instead of get out of my head,let's focus more on your body
and your sensation, like what amI physically experiencing right
now, to more elevate kind ofthat primal or gut center.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
And we get so set in our ways that most of us simply
stay stuck in the rut that we'veforged our whole life.
Right.
You know, for the headspace,they don't often want to deal
with people, with emotions,because emotions are messy.
Well, data and information,that's clean cut.
You know, math is what it isright.

(59:11):
So it's just more comfortablethat for them to see life as
that problem to be solved,rather than the relationships
that bring with it inherentmessiness right um so, but it
all.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
All of them are so important they are and you look
at the uniqueness that makes upthe whole and I think one of the
things I think we talked aboutlast time you all were here is
that the older you get, the moreelusive your number becomes.
Well, I should say, thehealthier you get, the more

(59:45):
elusive your number becomes,because you can move through the
world with much moreflexibility, and I would imagine
that the more healthy you get,the more elusive that triad
becomes, because you have thatability to throw.
I mean, look I, was I good atthrowing with my left hand?
No, was I?
Well, was I great at throwingwith my left hand?

(01:00:06):
No, was I good enough?
Yes, throwing with my left hand?
No, was I good enough?
Yes, cause I kept working on itand I found a way for it to be
enjoyable, because all themechanics were funny to me,
written reverse, and so I foundhumor in it and I, I it was.
It was an enjoyable experience,right, and so we will know that

(01:00:26):
we are head dominant or gutdominant or heart dominant, but
that doesn't mean that we can'tmove through.
That, I think, is to your point.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And the healthier we are.
We are partners in ourdevelopment.
We're not bystanders.
We have to participate in theprocess in order to bring about
the growth and transformation,and so, when we're in
relationships with our spouse,our children, our co-workers,

(01:01:00):
it's super important to reallyhave a level of awareness that
will allow us to grow into andutilize the different centers of
intelligence, as well as thestrengths from the different
types.
We don't have to stay stuck ina number.
None of us are a number.
We're all a unique individualbut we all can identify with the

(01:01:25):
characteristics and themotivations of that number, and
so we can either choose to justthrow our hands up and go well,
that's who I am, accept it, ornot, or we can say wait, our
greatest command is to love withall of our heart, with all of
our mind, with all of ourstrength this is the three

(01:01:47):
intelligence centers with all ofour soul.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
You know, right, right, yeah.
And what's what's sointeresting about that to me is
like you're talking about howthat hits all of them.
And then I'm thinking aboutokay, wait, I know where I go in
stress, and that's the.
I leave my intelligence triadand I move into another space.
And so that's the beauty andthe complexity of because I know

(01:02:13):
that you know eights go to twoin stress.
And so it's like okay, wait,you're leaving your gut and
going to your, to your uh, fivein stress.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Oh, eights go to five in stress, we go to two and
health Okay, and so it's likethat's.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
my curiosity is is that I seven goes to five in
health, so that's staying in thehead triad.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
That's right.
But the one right Is going intothe gut, but you miss the heart
Exactly, so you have to workharder for it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
That's funny, yeah, so do so when we think about the
, not the winging.
What is it called the arrows?
So when we think about thosearrows and for those of you who
may be new to the Enneagram,those arrows are that, and this
is what this is.
Honestly.
What got me with the Enneagramis that I remember I had a
mentor who said take this littlepersonality quiz so that I can

(01:03:07):
know you better.
And I took the little quiz andhe was like this doesn't make
sense.
You broke the test.
I was like what do you mean?
I broke the test kind of mademe mad and I see I'm in my, I'm
in my gut triad now, and so itkind of, but it did, it
frustrated me and I'm like whatdo you mean?
I broke it.
He said, well, you're sanguine,which in that was the the more

(01:03:29):
describing the seven you're, youknow, like the Labrador is, but
you're also melancholy, andthose two things don't go
together.
And I was like, okay, well, Iwas in finals, I was in all of
like having exams I was had todo, I was writing a big paper or
something when I took thatquestionnaire and I was stressed
, and so of course, both sidesof that showed up and that was

(01:03:51):
the.
This, the Enneagram, was theonly personality explanation
that said, when you are stressed, you leave this fun.
Stress that's where you havethe tendency to go is a really

(01:04:11):
unhealthy critical place.
You can either criticizeyourself or you can externalize
that and criticize others.
For me it's an internal thing,but it that's what grabbed me,
and so those of you listeningwho maybe don't understand all
that and who've made it throughall of this, that's what the,
that's what the arrows are iswhere you go in stress or where
you go in health.
And so do all of these, um, doall of those movements.

(01:04:36):
They don't all leave their,their triad, so you don't touch
all of them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
That is correct.
Most of them do have access toall three, but not all of them.
The seven does not, the fivedoes not, Um and the four does
not.
The five does not and the fourdoes not.

Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
Because you're all special Right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
But the three, sixes and nines obviously are in the
three triads.
The eights have access to allthree, the twos have access to
no, the twos don't have accessto the gut.
But the other thing are.
Then you bring in the wings,the numbers on either side of
you.
So let's say a two, they have anaccess to the one wing, so that

(01:05:17):
is the gut triad space and thefives can access the four space,
but the eights I mean thesevens over there they don't
have a wing that accesses theheart space and the fours don't
have access to the headspace.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Well, no, they do, because for the five, yeah yeah,
okay, this is mind-bending allthe arrows, so okay.
So now we know about thesecenters of intelligence.
We know that there's three.
That's why they're called atriad I'm using my head you like
that um, and so we, we, we movethrough the world, we ingest

(01:05:55):
the world in a in a particularway.
We have a dominant throwing arm, we have the opportunity based
on where we fall in those triadsto utilize other aspects that
we.
That may be, maybe we may beambidextrous.
Let's put it that way.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
And then there's some of us we won't mention who that
have to work harder to toaccess these other spaces.
So in thinking aboutrelationships are there numbers
that or triads are places on the, the, diagram.

(01:06:34):
This, yeah, would it be calleda circle?
We don't call it a circle.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Well, there's a circle there and there's the
nine pointed diagram.
Okay, we'll call it the diagram.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Is there a?
Is there a number on thediagram that is least compatible
with another number?

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
That's a question that is asked a lot and I would
say the main there areparticular types that would have
more challenges with each otherthan others, Like a four and a
seven could have challengesbecause the four can be so

(01:07:18):
expressive and feel the wholerange of emotions so deeply that
it can be exhausting for aseven who really just wants to
have fun and experience allkinds of things, to keep pain
away, where the four can sit inthat pain for a long, long time.
And the four struggle so muchwith their own self-worth and

(01:07:46):
the seven typically really kindof likes himself and they like
life and so they don't havethese struggles with depression
and angst and I mean they can ifthey were willing to feel some
of that.
But because they're so adept atpushing any negative things

(01:08:07):
aside, they're just trying toexperience the world in a myriad
of different ways that bringpositivity where the fours.
They don't see the world thatway, so that can be a challenge.

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
But really the short answer to your question is
there's not two numbers that aremost compatible or least
compatible and you know, forthose that maybe are considering
you know who they might end upwith I would say it's not so
important to focus on what theirEnneagram type is.
It's really your level ofhealth that's going to determine
your compatibility.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
That's a really good way to say that, Because my next
question was going to be isthere a number that you think is
just genuinely more compatible?

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
number that you think is just genuinely more
compatible.
Well, nines are probably theeasiest to get along with
because they are so go with theflow type of people.
They don't tend to make a lotof demands and so in general
they really are easy people tobe with and people like them
because of that.
But if you live with the nine,you start to see the weakness of

(01:09:20):
their stance and their position, because they can be so
stubborn that they won't budge.
Stubborn that they're, theywon't budge, it doesn't matter
how many tow trucks you attachto them.
They're going to just stay wherethey are and you're not
changing them because it's aninternal position of no, I'm not

(01:09:43):
letting anybody control me.
Cause again for the nine, it'sabout power and control.
So so, um, did I answer thatquestion?
Yeah, I think you did.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
I because I think at the, at the core of it, it's
it's like what you said, jetty.
It's like don't look for, oh,I'm a pisces.
So therefore I'm morecompatible with a capricorn,
it's not like that this is moreabout.
This is one of the things I loveabout this as well and I love
that you all approach it thisway is that it's really the core
is knowing how you've beenuniquely designed, knowing what

(01:10:19):
your strengths and yourunrecognized strengths are also
known as weaknesses like knowinghow to to come along and be
more fully who you were designedto be and move through the
world more authentically.
And when you are authentic andyou encounter somebody who's
working to be authentic, thenyou can see if your two

(01:10:41):
authentic selves are compatible.
And that, to me, is and I'vedone a lot of work, a lot of
research All of my my researchhas been in this area of
intrapersonal understanding,meaning understanding self, so
that you have I always kind ofjokingly say you have a me to
bring to we, and bringing the meto we is interpersonal, and so

(01:11:06):
it's we got to ego, not out ofyour essence in order to love

(01:11:32):
another person and serve anotherperson and submit mutually out
of love to another person.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
And I can kind of give you an example.
My husband and I were drivingto Dallas the other day and he
was driving, and I would say itprobably works better when I'm
driving because I like to be incontrol and I have to work
really, really hard at notasking him why he's in the lane

(01:11:59):
he's in when the other lane ismoving so much faster.
And that takes a lot ofrestraint for me because I'm all
about now doing it, now doingit as quick as possible, and as
efficient as yeah and so it justit kind of unnerves me and I'll

(01:12:20):
sometimes just go.
This is ridiculous, dana, thishas nothing to do with his
innate essence or mine right andto be willing, I sometimes just
close my eyes and then othertimes I'll ask the question you
don't like that lane over there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
Well, that's good.
I mean, at least you're notsaying hey, move over there,
turn here.
Do that, because I wouldimagine that a three would
ingest that to mean I'm notperforming well, right?
Therefore, oh, you think I am abad driver?
Not, you're looking for thefastest way to get there.
It's, I am failing you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
Which makes it personal.
Right, yes, right yes.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
And I think that's the beauty of understanding
these themes themes and thingsis that it gives us a platform
through which, or by which, tounderstand not only us, but how
we may be showing up forsomebody else.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
And what a gift of consideration when you close
your eyes, as long as it's nottaking from you.
Yeah, because we don't want toagain the heart triad.
Don't overlook yourself to carefor somebody else.
Right, really, any triad,absolutely.
Don't overlook yourself to carefor somebody else, really any
triad, absolutely.
Don't overlook yourself.
To care for somebody else andunderstanding yourself.
Is this something that I reallyneed to climb the hill over?

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Yeah, because it goes back to the motive.
Why are you sensing, feeling,thinking the way you are?
Right?
What's really driving that?
And that's the observation ofself, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
Okay, this has been amazing.
One more small well, this is abig wrinkle, but one more
wrinkle of the Enneagram beingilluminated to our listeners,
and this is.
I know this has been fun for meand I'm sure you're shocked,
but I know this has been fun forme and I really appreciate you

(01:14:11):
all taking the time to come andsit down with me and really help
make sense out of this.
The Enneagram is super complex,but I think it's complex
because it illuminates orelucidates the complexity of who
God has made us to be, which is, I think, the beauty of it.

(01:14:33):
So, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
Yeah, I agree, this has been so fun for us.
Thank you for having us.
I think, just to kind of wrapup what we talked about with the
centers of intelligence, itkind of is a reminder that
others aren't ever thinkingabout you in the way that you
think they are, and that's notpersonal.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
That is so well said.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
That's super important to know that about the
heart people, the twos, threesand fours, okay.
And I can give you anotherexample.
Sorry it's so personal, butlike, if I get sick or I need

(01:15:14):
assistance with my health, forsome reason my husband's the
most amazing caregiver becausehe is connecting the
relationship to the care foranother person.
I, on the other hand, if hegets sick, I'm so about autonomy
that my reaction is to give himspace and just check on him
once in a while and I mean I'lltend to what he needs, but I'm

(01:15:37):
not there just doting on him andseeing how things are going.
It is like, oh, no, no, no, no,I want to give you space, you
sleep.
You know, he wants me doting onhim.
Oh yeah, because it's about therelationship.
Right, he wants me doting onhim because it's about the
relationship and so knowing thedifference from where we're
receiving the world andperceiving that and integrating
that, it's really important tounderstand that so we can be

(01:16:00):
more present, not just toourselves but to our loved ones
and meeting their needs andknowing how to ask for that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
Because I am somebody who really I like, I like touch
from my wife and she is not atouchy person and she but she is
an acts of service type person.
And so if I walk past the trashand it's full and I just push
it down and close the drawer,it's like what, why aren't you

(01:16:29):
caring for me in this way?
It's like because taking outthe trash she didn't care for
you, but it is for her, right.
And so learning that very earlyon in our marriage was a very
it was a very interestingprocess for us to walk through.
And it's, you know, at thispoint I may be driving along and
I'll say, hey, please, like,could you just touch me?
And she's like, oh, yeah, yeah.

(01:16:50):
And she puts her hand on myback.
I'm like that's all I needed,right, and it's that it's the
willingness to ask for it,knowing that that's what I need
and her willingness to give it,knowing that's what I need.
And for me, walking past thetrash and saying, okay, yes, I'm
going to take that outpreemptively, without her asking
, because I want, I'm thinkingabout her and I want to serve

(01:17:11):
her that way.
Or if she says, hey, could youtake the trash out?
I was like, yes, that's my wayof serving and loving her and
it's it's uncovering all of thatand that's what I love about
this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
So yeah, those love languages are so important too,
to know those.
And then do it that with thatunderstanding.
One final thing I would saythat is important for us as
parents to know those and thendo it that with that
understanding.
One final thing I would saythat is important for us as
parents to know and our job asparents is pretty much over.
We just get to be grandparentsnow.
But when parents are in twodifferent triads but they're in

(01:17:45):
the triads that have a repressedcenter, they are not going to
necessarily be as attentive totheir children in that repressed
center.
So my husband and I are in thehead and gut center no, I'm
sorry, he's in the heart and I'min the gut center and because

(01:18:07):
he's in the middle of thatcenter, as a three, those
emotions are repressed.
As an eight, my emotions arerepressed.
So being sensitive to ourchildren who are in the
emotional triad is somethingthat if we knew this back then,
we could have been more aware ofit.

(01:18:28):
Knew this back then we couldhave been more aware of it.
But not knowing it, I thinkthere are things that really
were lacking, because we maybeweren't as attentive to the
emotional intelligence,especially when you are
processing something through.
Why are you being soreactionary to this?
Just you know, are you?

(01:18:49):
Yes, fall down, you get hurt.
I'm going to hug you, but thenwe're going to rub some dirt on
it and you're going to move on.

Speaker 3 (01:18:55):
Yeah, do you have anything to say on that?
No, I think that's a greatpoint and again kind of opens a
whole nother can of worms whenyou think about.
You know how this shows up in afamily dynamic and with
parenting and understandingwhere your kids might be.
So I think it's just helpful tobe aware of and we're not going
to move effectivelyinterpersonally if we have not

(01:19:20):
done the work internally right.
Very well said.

Speaker 1 (01:19:25):
Very well said.
Thank you, ladies.
Thank you, this was a blast.
So much fun.
Thank you, ladies.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
Thank you.
This was a blast, so much fun.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:19:32):
If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of mental
wellness, don't forget tosubscribe to the podcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step

(01:19:54):
of the.
Thank you.