January 14, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with Eric Wood to explore innovations in college mental health and the growing need for mental health support among students. Together, they discuss the unique challenges faced by college students, the latest strategies and programs designed to foster resilience, and practical solutions for improving well-being on campuses.
This conversation sheds light on how mental health care is evolving to meet the needs of today’s students and offers valuable insights for educators, parents, and students alike. Don’t miss this important discussion on the future of mental wellness in higher education.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long, and in today'sepisode I'm joined by Eric Wood
to discuss a topic that's moreimportant than ever mental
health and college students.
Students face the growing needfor mental health support on
(00:27):
campuses and strategies tofoster resilience and well-being
during these formative years.
Join us for an insightfulconversation packed with
valuable perspectives andpractical advice.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Well welcome Eric Dr Wood.
You can call me Eric, but thankyou, thank you for having me.
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
Well, welcome Eric Dr Wood.
You can call me Eric, but thankyou, thank you for having me.
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
(00:48):
So your role at TCU, texasChristian University yes, the,
the well, I was going to say theone-time almost football
champion, but I probablyshouldn't bring that up.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hey, like you said, everyone else was home, so we
got to play for a nationalchampionship.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
So, yeah, you are the head ofthe mental health department.
How do you describe that?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, so I'm the director of the counseling
mental health center, so I haveabout 20 people in our staff,
which is a good number for astudent, about 13,000 of the
student body.
So yeah, we're the studentcounseling center pretty much,
and so it's part of the tuition.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Students can come and see a therapist, you know, for
a wide range of thingsno-transcript, but to have
(02:15):
different providers that are notpart of TCU be partners with
TCU and provide this on campus.
And we kind of kicked this offwith the DBT program, the
Dialectical Behavioral Therapyprogram, and so can you talk us
through where that vision camefrom and how it's grown and what
(02:36):
you've seen?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, so it's just part of the model and it also is
a collaboration.
Talking to other schools, theydon't do it the way we do or
articulate it the way we did,but it's a fact.
Most people don't think aboutcollege mental health.
I know there's a lot ofexpectations on what schools can
provide, but we are a school,we're not a treatment community
and that's not the goal.
To be, a treatment community.
(02:58):
The goal is to be aninstitution of higher education.
But at the same time, you know,college students are a high
demographic for pretty muchanything.
Just I mean name it, secondhighest demographic for suicide
attempts A lot of things emergeor escalate during 1825.
And so we do have a really highkind of, you know, need for
(03:20):
services.
But the ideal is just kind oflooking at okay, we have
colleges, we don't have theprograms, but we do have the
infrastructure, we do have theassets to the students.
You don't have to build ahospital, we have all the
technology right there, but wedon't have the programs.
And that's by design, becausewe were not designed by that.
Right, you're hired, like yousaid, you're a higher education
(03:42):
institution, but we're fortunateto have a lot of treatment
centers that are the opposite.
They have the programs bydesign, they have a program
that's specifically designed forstudents with high mental
health needs, but they don'thave the access to the students,
they don't have theinfrastructure, they don't have
the things that we have.
So the idea is, why don't wejust build a bridge and that's
(04:07):
one of the aspects of our modeland, yeah, that way we go to a
treatment center and say can weuse your program but use our
resources and access?
And then that way, yeah, theideal is that students who have
high mental health needs theywere still taking a lot of our
resources.
If you look at the nationalstudy, most counseling centers
(04:27):
spend about 50% of our sessionson 20% of clients and those are
students with really high mentalhealth needs.
Maybe we refer them off, maybethey go.
We don't go, but someone'salways worried about them.
There's always a safety check,there's always crisis walk-ins,
so we're spending so much timeon them.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, it walk-ins, so we're spending so much time on
them.
Yeah, it eats up you.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And not to say it eats up, but it really does
dominate a lot of theuniversity's resources.
Yeah, we're spending 50% on 20%of clients.
And then you have these otherstudents who that's what we were
designed for normativedevelopment of concerns, who
can't get in because we're doingit.
So the ideal is, instead ofhiring new staff again.
What would that do?
You know, if we have the samescope of care, we don't have the
programs to give me new staff.
I'm still, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And the interesting thing to in the all of that to
me is that in what are theoutcomes if you are spending
that?
What are the outcomes of that?
50% of the time, yes, are therepositive outcomes.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I mean, and the old, traditional way, like, no, they
weren't getting treatment andthey would just, you know, have
this cycle of coming to thecounseling center doing a safety
check.
Maybe we're for our campus notgoing, you know, and we were
just suspending a lot of timeand, yeah, there's a high risk
things, negative outcomes, couldhappen.
(05:50):
But if you imagine those 20%,if there were programs for them,
you know, if there wassomething that they could go and
they would get in treatment andthe counseling center staff
didn't have to do it, right,yeah, what would be the outcome
then?
Would that trickle down tohaving less after hours on call,
you know?
Would that trickle down to lesshospitalizations?
Would that trickle down to makeit easy for the dean of
students?
Would it trickle down to thecounseling center, because we
have 50% more capacity to seemore students?
(06:12):
There was just that thoughtlike what would be the trickle
down effect?
And we've shown that, yeah, itworks.
Like, if you do that and you dothings for the 20%, the trickle
down effect is phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
The trickle-down effect is phenomenal.
The trickle-down effect for theuniversity is phenomenal, not
to mention the trickle-downeffect for the students.
Yes, I mean, I remember ourfirst year, or our first cycle,
I should say, of our DBT programon the campus, where I think
I'm remembering this correctlythat we were sort of a test case
and what we found the data, theoutcome data that we found was
(06:53):
that the students learned theskills, which was fantastic.
I mean, they're a universitystudent, they're there to learn
right Education is their purposefor being there and they were
learning the skills that we wereteaching in the in the DBT
program.
We found that their incidence ofself-harm dropped.
(07:14):
We had no one who self-harmedwhile they were in.
We had no hospitalizations.
So we had people who wererepetitive, repetitively
hospitalized in the semesters.
They were not hospitalized.
And this one, this one was athing that I don't know why.
This was a surprise to me, butit really was a surprise to me
(07:35):
and when I look at it I should.
I'm like duh, their grades wentup, yeah, their grades went up
because their mental health wasbeing handled or being addressed
and their grades went up, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Oh, absolutely.
And not to mention because thatfirst pilot, I think we had 24
slots and every student that wegave you would have been a
student that traditionally wouldhave been either referred off
campus or would have takenmedical leave, right, and I
think we kept 22 of the 24 inschool that is right Stayed
enrolled, that is right.
And, yeah, we just had so muchindicators.
That was good.
You mentioned that one studentit was a junior who said every
(08:09):
semester they were there, theyhad been hospitalized, they were
not hospitalized, they were inthat program for a year, right,
and then they graduated, right.
And so, yeah, the outcome thatwas just proof of concept like
this is really working, becausenot only, like I said, because
you had all those outcomes, butour counseling, our staff saw
more students, we saw more otherstudents there were less
(08:30):
hospitals.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, yeah, lower acuity students right students
with us lesser concerns, justthe more the typical type of
things and we had more space forthem.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And then our uh, because you know for us, if
someone goes hospital, ourcampus police goes, but we less
patrols, which means that theyhad, you know, less time being
off campus.
You know they could spend moretime on campus.
So again, that just goes downto the trickle effect.
And then you imagine theparents.
You know, I mean the parentswere excited because the
students are staying in schooland they're doing well, the
grades are going up, and theseare students that had a history.
(09:08):
I mean every student we saw onthe pilot.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
The counseling center would not have been able to
there, would those students were.
All of them were beyond a scopeof care, right?
Yeah, the because their, theirlevel of acuity was barely at
the edge of outpatient versusinpatient and inpatient takes
them away from what they'rethere for yeah, and that's what
a lot of people don't understand.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
They think all counseling, counseling is the
same, like, oh, there's acounseling center, it's all the
same and it's just like.
No, you really, like a doctorcan't treat everything, you know
.
That's actually unethical.
So it'd be unethical for me tosay, you know the 13,000
students, the counseling centercan treat them all Right, like
that can't promise that.
We're not that good.
So the ideal is, like somepeople put those expectations,
(09:46):
we'll just go to the counselingcenter.
Where the question is does thecounseling center have the
ability to treat them?
Because if you don't, then kindof what's the point?
So we really have to look howcan we expand our scope of care?
And you can build your ownprogram, hire a bunch of staff,
but why would you if there's atreatment center who already has
the program that you're lookingfor?
(10:07):
It's a lot less expensive yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So this has been so.
The pilot was am I right toremember it was 2018?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I think it was right before because I became I've
been at TC since 2007, becamedirector at 2019, which is right
before the pandemic happened.
But before that, yeah, we did apilot, so it started, so it was
on the air.
It carried over to 2019, but,yeah, cause I was back in that
summer.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
So yeah, yeah, and so for the last.
So this, this program has beenrolling for now five years.
So what, what like?
What are some of the thingsthat you've seen in these five
years?
So what, what like?
What are some of the thingsthat?
You've seen in these five years, and what?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
yeah, Again, you have to think.
Every student that we refer toyou would be on a scope of care,
so you can make it in terms ofretention.
You know, most of thosestudents at the very least
probably would have taken amedical job for at least a
semester.
They may have come back, but atleast the I mean their academic
progress would have beeninterrupted and their graduation
(11:09):
delay.
So just that alone is worth it.
To sit there and say everysingle student that we've done
every semester probably wouldhave taken a medical job and
left the school and you'realready able to keep them
Because there hasn't been thatmany students in the program
that had to leave.
Most of the students stay inschool, right, and y'all were
able to keep them.
Yeah, because there hasn't beenthat many students in the
program that had to leave.
Like, most of the students stayin school and complete.
So that is it's definitelyamazing, but the thing is
(11:33):
there's so many unknowns, likewe're not going to know, like
how many of those studentsdidn't attempt a suicide, you
know True.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Because we can't prove a negative.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, you can't prove a negative, but those are
students who were at risk for it, you know.
So it's very likely that wesave lives, you know, or at
least attempt suicides, that'svery likely.
Or substances you use, orrelationships.
There's a lot of things that wejust never know, but we do know
.
We have this huge group ofstudents now who've been treated
, and you know better than I do,DVD carries a whole life.
(12:03):
So what is the future impact?
Not only do they stay in schoolthis year, but they use the
school for the year after that.
They probably use those skillswhen they get married as a
parent, you know.
As a coworker, you know,employee.
So you know, we'll never knowthat, but we can say I mean, we
hear the students and say thisprogram is amazing.
And of all of our programs, theDBT is the one we hear the most
positive feedback about.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Oh, thank you, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Oh yeah.
Because I guess the emotionalregulation and we hear from
parents yeah, I mean you'rechanging people's those lives
and yeah, and it helps us,because when y'all do that work,
we're free to do more.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
See more students, wow, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I I didn't, I didn't know that.
Um, I know that when it, whenyou go back to the idea of
outcomes, you know it's.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I've recently published an article in the
cognitive therapy and researchjournal and um when the pandemic
hit, when the shutdown hit, andso, if you think about that, I
mean that is formative years ofa lot of relationships and the
way you think about the worldand things like that.
And so that cohort now has thisframe of reference where they
(13:14):
were doing a shutdown during itsformative years.
The world has been hostile forthem, so they don't know what
it's like not to have wars, notto have a pandemic and
everything like that, and so,and then they transition a lot
of them to a new school the nextyear, into high school, all
that stuff.
So we are definitely seeing2008 is different, because
(13:36):
before, right after the pandemic, there was a lot of separation,
anxiety, there's a lot ofdisconnect, and now we're seeing
the people who are in juniorhigh.
They have a fundamentallydifferent view of the world,
which makes total sense, and weexpect it for the next couple of
years that way.
I mean, yeah, when people inelementary come to college, it
might be a little morestabilized, but for this cohort,
(13:58):
for the next three or fouryears, if you think about where
they were when the pandemic hitand how that formed their view
of the world, their view ofrelationships, their view of
themselves how they handleemotions.
Yeah, these next three or fouryears is really important for
college mental health justbecause of that developmental
lifestyle.
So we're definitely seeing thathealth just because of that
developmental life.
Yeah, so we're definitelyseeing that.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
That's so.
You're so right, that's sointeresting to consider that
this cause you're you're sayingthat the the graduating class
from TCU of 2028 is is theincome?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, incoming.
They'll graduate in 28.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, and so that the the the the impact of the
pandemic in their development,and we're seeing that in college
now in the mental healthlandscape.
That's so interesting.
Deborah Atkinson was here aweek or so ago and she was
talking about how we haveexclaimed that the pandemic is
(14:55):
over and it's like but do werecognize the impact that the
pandemic has had on us or do wejust shut it down and leave it
behind?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean it's a global trauma.
You know just even the shutdown, because that altered.
If you look at the definitionof trauma, that altered it.
You know even the shutdown did,because you know all the SAMHSA
definition and met with it.
But yeah, it's one thing ifyou're an adult, you know you
cope with it.
You know because maybe you lostyour job but you got a new job.
You know, in relationships, butwhen you were a junior high and
(15:24):
that happened and it was aformative year, it changes your
whole perspective of things.
But yeah, it's not going to goback.
You know there's going to be adifferent type of student and
(15:45):
that's just the way it is.
It's huge world history.
You see it in other history,when World War II happened, the
college students were different,you know.
So you see, anything thataffects the globe is going to
affect it.
Like we say, what affects youas a person affects you as a
learner, and so it makes perfectsense.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, and it's that's .
I love that.
That's so interesting toconceptualize it from that
perspective, because that's notjust TCU, that's everyone.
Yeah, that's the landscape ofuniversity students.
Yeah, Worldwide.
Wow Is there.
Is there any other trends thatyou see on the mental health
(16:17):
landscape?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I mean in terms of mental health, anxiety as a
priest, depression and thingslike that.
But I think right now, theother kind of global thing I
don't know if you heard aboutthe demographic cliff.
So right now, to start nextyear, there is literally less
17-year-olds on the planet nowthan there's ever been.
Oh right, and it goes down from10 years Like seven-year-olds.
It sounds like the distance isgreat.
So we know, about 10 yearsthere's literally less of them.
(16:44):
It's because my generation hasless kids.
So yeah, so there's literallygoing to be theoretically less
college students and it startsnext year.
So you, you're already seeingsome of like the directional,
smaller colleges close, um,enrollment numbers, but people
are thinking, okay, what is thatgoing to be the impact of that,
of just having fewer collegestudents?
(17:06):
That, because now colleges youknow a lot of them are having
budget constraints you knowcutting this so it's not.
Most people think, like the bigstate schools and elite private
schools would be okay.
But if you look about the, youknow Southwest, whatever
Southwest those are strugglingin enrollment and so some people
think, you know, how's thatgoing to help?
You know the student support,because I mean, you definitely
(17:29):
need that and one of the thingsthat's also interesting is how
people pick colleges.
It used to be for academicreasons why do I want to pick
college for this?
But now there's been such ashift of people thinking, oh,
you even need college, you donot.
But now the number one thing Ijust heard, I think, with Gallup
poll that people are pickingcollege based on student support
.
Families want to know what isthe life of the student going to
(17:50):
be like on college.
That has surpassed academicreputation now.
So then that like yeah, thatwith the demographic cliff, you
would think that a lot ofschools you know are thinking
well, how do we support ourstudents now, since there's
going to be less of them andthat's going to be a priority?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So do you see this?
Do you see other universitiestrying to race to the party and
try to create?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Oh yeah, you already see it, like if people are
talking.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I mean, that's why a lot of people look at TCU, cause
you know we have a lot ofthings at TCU, um, but that's a
lot of I'm sorry to interruptyou, but a lot, not just a lot
of things at TCU, but there's alot of proven entities at TCU
where you have kept we, I know,I know we keep data because we
want to understand outcomes.
I mean, just as an organization, we all want to know what our
(18:44):
outcomes are, because that'sgreat if everybody feels great
and wants to sing Kumbaya afterwe end a session.
But at the end of the day, whatdo you take with you?
That's what's important.
I mean, yes, it's important tohave a good feeling at the end,
I guess, but it's the, like yousaid, are we impacting you down
the road?
And so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
No, I mean that's huge for us Because I mean, yeah
, when we started, it was suchan out-of-box like new thing,
yeah.
And so, yeah, we're verycareful.
What data do we collect?
We do have a network of schools.
I've talked to government, wentto Austin, even talked to, like
the Surgeon General in DC andall that.
And, yeah, you need to have thedata to say that this actually
works.
Because that's our goal.
I mean, I told my boss when wefirst started I want to change
(19:23):
college mental health, becauseif you think about the mental
health epidemic of America,where would you start?
And you know, when I talked togovernment officials, I said
start with colleges.
It's not the end-all be-all,but, yeah, you have an
infrastructure, like you said.
You have people, we have thebuildings, we have the
technology, we have the accessto the biodemographic.
There's not a lot of systemsthat have that and you can do so
(19:44):
much good with so less money.
Right, but just collaborate,don't build new things, just
collaborate with things that arealready there.
Already there, yeah, and thatmessage has resonated.
But that's the question how youknow it works.
And we've been doing this forfive years and we have all the
data we can talk to students.
We have all the things and ofcourse it just makes sense like
the programs that we have, likeyou and the other treatment
(20:04):
centers.
Again, these programs weredesigned right for students with
mental health needs.
So there's a lot of evidencebase, a lot of validation.
They're not like these new, youknow out of nowhere you know
programs.
It's just like, it's just noone's ever thought about it.
It's like, oh, do we have theinfrastructure?
They have the program, let'sjust combine them.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, when, you, when and I want to come back to
something that you said aboutthe, the U S surgeon general.
I want to.
I want to hover over that for aminute.
But when you, when you,approached me about this idea, I
thought, oh my gosh, howbrilliant is this?
Because we would always marketto you all to say, hey, we're
here, we have a relationship, welove to work with this age
(20:47):
group.
And when you said, well, whydon't we create a partnership?
I thought that is one of themost brilliant things I've ever
heard.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
well, part of it is neat because, I mean, some of
the time, some students, they'llnever go off campus, right, you
know.
Because they have all thesequestions like if I go off
campus, who am I going to be ingroup with you know, um, or is
it, you know, like we havedonors that pay for it?
You know they can't afford topay for it.
They don't have a car, theycan't even get here, right?
So there's a lot of barriers tothat.
(21:16):
But when you put it on campusit just reduces a lot of the
barriers.
I mean the stigma like you'reonly going to be in group with
college students and we do it tosupport you in academics.
That's why we're really big onfundraising, because then we can
say you don't have to pay forit, it's not out of pocket cost.
We try to take the excuses away, or the barriers, I should say
(21:36):
away, and that is the best wayto do it on campus.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, I mean, it truly is your heart for the
college students.
I mean it's really evident.
So let's go back to the SurgeonGeneral and let's hover over
that for a minute.
Tell us more about what thatmeeting was about.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah Well, I mean we're going to get a new Surgeon
General, obviously, but thelast one, he is very big on
mental health.
I don't know if you've readanything about the Surgeon
General, but social media, youknow, impact mental health and
most Surgeon Generals they'llpick a cause, you know, but a
lot of them is like physical,you know Right, so if we have a
surgeon general, say, mentalhealth is going to be his cause
(22:20):
and he wrote a book onloneliness, you know, and I mean
that's just his platform.
So I mean it was a think tank inDC and he was presenting at the
beginning and I was actuallypresenting with the former
director of Secretary of Healthand Human Services at the last
panel, and so we were justtalking and he was, you know, he
kind of agreed, you knowcollege and he's done college
tours like he, not because of me, I'm just saying he kind of
(22:44):
gets it.
Um, but I've done stuff.
It's just like september.
I did like a one-hour briefingwith the white house office of
science technology and they justwanted to talk and they said
this is like it made sense, likethey said they like how you're
doing because it'll cost lessmoney like they were just
thinking in that way.
Um, and then austin talked tothe behavioral health
coordinated councils and thatwas a good example because that
(23:05):
was a couple years ago.
But just to give you an example, it was there's the behavioral
health coordinating councils,all the department, like health
services, just like theirleadership, and like one of them
was a substance use council andthey were talking about a
campaign they were running atthe time and they had difficulty
getting in a certain parts ofTexas.
You know they can get into theDallas area, the Houston, but
(23:27):
like the El Paso and all therural areas had a hard time into
.
I looked at that and I waspresident of our state
association.
I was like there's a schoolevery.
I looked at that and I waspresident of our state
association.
I was like there's a school,every single part of the map
that they are saying they can'tget into.
So I was like would you send methat?
And you know, and they said andI just sent it to all the
directors and I remember shesaid you accomplished more in
five minutes.
What did we did in two yearsand it's just again.
(23:47):
People just don't's right there,but no one really has thought
about that.
You know, a lot of schoolsdon't even think about working
with, like I mean, especiallyrural areas, there's mental
health authorities.
A lot of schools don't eventhink about working with them.
Right, you know so.
And now, if you look at it,there's a map interacting with
(24:13):
colleges so you can see howclose these colleges are and see
that was because of us.
This is people never reallythought about it, like it's
right there, the demographic isright there, but people just
never thought about partying atthe school.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And it's so interesting because it's like
what an overlooked demographicright, but it's the vital
demographic.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
The 1825 is a demographic that most people are
worried about the most, right,you know.
I mean obviously you wantearlier, but people don't get
confidentiality until they're 18, right, so it's like really
effective um well in consentyeah, informed consent then you
have to be.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
You're always concerned about the parental
informed consent.
Younger, yeah, yeah and andwhen, when they turn 18, it's
like they get to choose on theirown yeah and, and then try
working with high schools ofbureaucracy or working with
independent school districts.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It's like because we've had some people try to use
us with high schools and justlike, I only understand the red
tape there, but with collegesyou don't have that right
because they can choose forthemselves.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, wow, that that's really neat, and so that
did.
Am I right to recall that theSurgeon General gave you an
award of some sort?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
No, not the award, I'm trying to think We've gotten
a lot of recognition.
So, look, we wrote an e-bookand that was because I was
inspired by Adonis, because allthe stuff we were doing, you
know, we had, like we did awebinar, we had like a hundred
schools show up, you know, andeveryone was asking me what do
you do?
So I just put together like,and it took like six weeks to
write.
You know, it wasn't that hard,it was just about what we did a
(25:44):
philosophy, we had fourdifferent objectives.
Put it on a website and Idonated all the money and I was
go to the donor fund and thatwon an award, that won an
international media award, andit raised a lot of money.
Like some people buy one copyand give like $10,000.
You know, it's just like wow,because all the money goes
straight to the students.
So there's no bureaucracy,which is good because you don't
(26:06):
have to be a million dollardonor.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
You know, if you want to give a couple hundred bucks,
you know that goes a long wayand that's right.
So that got a lot of attention.
Is that still available?
Oh yeah, if you go in thecounseling center website, so
counselingtcedu, there's a tablike in the about it says ebook
Okay.
And if someone goes in there weask like for $25 and that's
kind of tax purposes, like youhave to market it above the
(26:34):
market value if that makes sensebecause it's a donation.
So if you say 10 bucks, it'sjust you can buy the book.
Yeah, so you have to market itabove to say it's a donation.
But it's not uncommon thatsomebody will go and like you
see, oh, here's a 500 for onecopy, that's really and it's
like wow.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
but they know it's a fundraiser and the neat thing to
that is is that every timesomebody gives above the market
value and they give the $500,that's a student can get a
number of sessions out of thisand you may be the difference,
like you donating that.
You may be the differencebetween somebody living and
(27:11):
potentially committing suicide.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah, I mean, we've had students so this program
kept them from committingsuicide.
We have huge stories ofstudents saying that and they
tell their parents that and theytell us that Even other schools
they do it.
They'll say the same thing.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And so now you so currently you were invited to be
a guest columnist to Forbesmagazine.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Well, yeah, I started .
So it's a contributor toForbescom, that's like the
official title.
Yeah, it just so happenedbecause we were getting a lot of
national press of all this andit's kind of serendipitously,
like one of our TCU nationalmarketing people used to work
for Forbes.
And she was like yeah, Forbes,you're right, Because you know
they're a business, they do alot of other stuff, but they had
(27:56):
never done anything in collegemental health.
So we had a couple meetings andthey were like, yeah, try it,
you know, so I'm maybe acontributor, so you can follow
me.
Eric Wood, just on Forbes, andit's all about college mental
health and emerging adulthood.
It's new.
It just started like inSeptember.
So it's a kind of a new column,but so far so good I I will tell
(28:17):
you I'm enjoying the heck outof it.
Oh, thank you every friday yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I get the little email thatsays yeah, and I told you I
want to write a piece aboutemotional regulation, dbt.
Yeah, because I think everyschool should do that.
Yeah, I mean, every time youthink about the impact, what if
every school had a dbt programavailable to the students?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
yeah, I, I think every school.
If, if every school even had arequired course for all their
students to learn emotionregulation and interpersonal
skills you know, distress,tolerance, emotional regulation
and the interpersonal skills Ithink we could slowly begin to
change the world I think youcould I'm.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
One thing about the class is students are paying for
it.
You know they're paying for theclasses we do our way and they
don't pay for it.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
That's right, that's right.
Yeah, so yeah, and so what'sbeen the?
Have you had feedback on theForbes?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Oh yeah, I mean, like I said, it's like a well to be,
but just the fact that they'redoing it, you know, just the
fact that Forbes is has in thecollege, mental health is out
there and even like to havemainstream like I, you know any
of you a couple of counselingdirectors about.
(29:27):
There is like a whole thingabout ranking counseling centers
and there was like pros andcons to that.
So you know, so you get to be alot, a lot of experts and to
really kind of give and it's onthe website.
So go there forever, you know,yeah.
So yeah, it's been a goodexperience, it's been fun.
I've learned a lot, you know,just doing it, it's not a long
read, you know.
It's only like a thousand pages, you know.
So maybe two, three minute read.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
A thousand words, not pages.
Yeah, a thousand pages.
Yeah, that's war and peace.
Yeah, that's war and peace.
So yeah, as long as they keeptelling me to do it, I would do
it.
That's really neat.
I love that there's a spotlighton mental health, but also for
this age group, because, again,this age group is, this is the
(30:11):
training for our futuregenerations, and I often think
that if we overlook thegeneration that's in university,
regardless of the timeframe,whether it's the Jenna, gen Z or
or whatever comes I don't knowwhat comes up after Gen Z
(30:32):
Millennials.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Is there something that works?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, there's so many of them that you know somebody
was saying to me I don't want tobe irrelevant when I'm 60 in
the workforce, and my responseto them were was the only way
we're irrelevant in theworkforce when we're 60 is if we
have ill will or disdain forthe generation that is two
(30:56):
generations below you, or twoand a half generations below you
, because they're the onescoming up, half generations
below you, because they're theones coming up in the workforce
and they're the ones that it's,at that point, will be the, the
rising superstars, right, makingdecisions and things like this,
and so it's.
It really is a care for all,for that generation that's up
and coming.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah and that's why a lot of people work in college
mental health, why we work incollege mental health, and
because it was like, oh, you cando all this other stuff.
But I mean, 1825 is also likewhen things emerge is actually
the best time to treat them.
That's right.
And a lot of times people willsay for us, like, you can see
the different trajectory, likeif they have this family history
and, let's say, somethinghappens and they get treated,
(31:38):
you, you can literally seethey're on a different
trajectory and it's easierbecause most of them aren't
married, they haven't written acareer, they're talking about
school, so the consequences areless.
And so a lot of people who workin college mental health will
say that's one of the reasonswhy it's so fulfilling, because
you know like, oh, it's moretangible to see, like this
(32:00):
person's on a differenttrajectory and so so, yeah, the
ramifications for their futurefamily future, everything, um,
but that's what we do.
Individual, but, yeah, think ofit as a nation or you know, it's
a globe, right thought.
You know, yeah, there's otherareas.
I'm not going to say this isend all, be all.
You think that, but if youreally put a focus on the 1825
yield, yeah, I mean, it mighttake a couple generations,
(32:20):
generations, but you will make ahuge dent in the whole epidemic
of society.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, and that, like you said, the malleability of
that age group, like the, brainis not even forming.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
So, as I say, it's literally easier to treat.
If you can get treated rightnow, yeah, they wait 10 to 15
years.
It could be more ingrainedtheir bodies, you know, and
their brain is brains moreformed.
Now they're talking about childcustody, their marriages, but
you get them before they haveany of that, you know.
That's right.
So it's literally easier.
In colleges, like I said, it'sprobably the easiest time to
(32:52):
access, like literally most ofthe college students live by us
or they travel by us everysingle day.
You know I can get thatcommunity provider.
Like, if you're working there,you're not going to literally be
able to just drive by acounseling center, right, see, a
licensed professor without evertaking out your wallet, a
licensed professional withoutever taking out your wallet, you
know.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
All they do is show us a 9ID.
You know Right.
So it literally is, in terms ofaccess, I think, probably the
easiest time to access.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's the easiest time to access.
It's the easiest time to access.
It's this building, this bridge.
Once it was built, it justmakes all the sense in the world
.
I feel very honored that, thatwe got to be the pilot study, um
, and I also feel honored toknow that it's a, that there's
such a beautiful positive impactthat you guys get a lot of good
feedback.
That's uh, that's superhonoring.
One of the things that we loveto do is, uh, any advice for our
(33:48):
listeners, because you know,restoration beyond the couch,
it's you know.
Do you have any advice or any?
Do you want to leave any points, point or points for our
listeners that you think, gosh,this would be really helpful for
them to consider, think about,know.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
I mean all different types of advice, I mean the
things that we're talking about.
Like you know, we talked aboutparents and yeah, it's certainly
because, especially with thisgeneration, a lot of times
parents, they lose the fact thatthey are still the number one
influence on the student's lives.
You look at all the data.
I know the attitudes somestudents give their parents
Trust me, I've seen it andstudents, you know parents seem
(34:29):
to feel like they're hopelessand lost.
You know, with their kidsbecause there's so much other
stuff and they'll speak a wholedifferent language.
But I know from personalexperience people look at the
data what is the number oneinfluence on a student's life is
going to be their parents youknow.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
That's where that's worth like hovering over for
just a moment, because I think,I think that you're right that
as parents there is we lose thethe um, we lose the idea, we
lose the notion that as a parent, we still are the most
impactful relationship.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, oh, we hear it all the time and people, parents
, like I don't know how to sayto approach my student and when
I tell them the process is moreimportant than the content.
You know, I love that, just thefact that you just went and
tried it, even if it's awkward.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Because it's going to be awkward.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
And even if you stumble, even if you sit and
don't know what to say.
The student's going to rememberthat, like my parent tried to
have this conversation, so theprocess is definitely more
important.
But the one thing I tell, thestat that I tell all the parents
is for colleges or us.
We literally keep track of itand every year it's about around
85% of students say they comebecause somebody asked them to.
(35:40):
Every year it's about around 85percent of students say they
come because somebody asked themto.
Like it's very rare for astudent on their own to be like,
oh, I'm struggling, wow, let mecall the counseling center like
that just does not happen.
And you say the same with othercounseling.
Most people think, oh, it'sright there, just do it.
No, they don't.
They usually will suffer insilence for way too long until
somebody sees them and says youneed to get help and most likely
(36:02):
the parent is the best one.
You know faculty is good, ra isgood, but a parent to just
reach out and, like I said, ifyou notice anything change,
that's a green light.
You know like people look forsigns, like they're all going to
look, like all the lists of redflags, but you know you're a
student.
If there's any reason for youto be concerned, say something.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
That's such a great point because I think as a, as a
parent, you you don't alwaysconsider that you know, you know
that student, you know yourchild well, and if you see
anything out of the ordinarythat I think that's very wise to
point that out to parents isyou don't wait for there to be
some red flag on a sheet thatsomebody's written of.
You know they're talking thisway or they're saying this.
You know your student, you knowyour kid.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Oh, I can't tell you how many times a parent has said
something and just made anobservation that they just looks
different.
And it wasn't on any red flag,but that was like, oh, like that
is.
That was the point.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And because the parents they have that history
you know, they literally knowthis student longer than anyone
else.
That's right.
You know so they're the experton their students.
But sometimes they lose sightof that and they refer to flags
or they defer to us and it'slike okay, yeah, we're
professionals, but you know thestudents so.
But again, most students willnot come to us counseling
centers unless somebody nudgesthem.
Yeah, that makes sense theyjust don't pick up the phone and
(37:20):
be like I'm depressed.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Right, they're not.
They're not interpersonallyaware, they don't.
I don't think.
I think most of us don't carryaround a real deep sense of
self-awareness, and I think thatage group is still developing
that sense of self-awareness,and so you're right, yeah, and
they need a nudge.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, not just like, go to Cal, they need a nudge,
someone to be like hey, sit themdown and be like we're really
concerned about you.
Here's a resource on the campusNice, so that is the biggest
advice I could teach a student.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of studentsand parents want to know how to
help out, because we do.
We're seeing this other schoolsLike I was a president of our
state association.
(37:58):
There's some talk of all of ourstate association doing this.
I give you new flash for thebig 12 schools.
We're working on a suicideprevention collaborative.
All together, I'm on thenational board.
So this is changing, you know.
And so a lot of people who youknow.
It's like well, how can I help?
Yeah, if you go in and, likeyou know, the ebook's a good way
, you know it goes through that.
But it's also a model of otherschools, you know, and we've
(38:21):
done stuff to help other schoolstoo.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
I think that's neat because it's you're right, it's.
This is a, this is a national,international issue, especially
after the pandemic and thetrauma, the global trauma we've
all experienced there, andmental health has become, I
think it's deteriorated.
It was deteriorating prior tothe pandemic.
To me, I would say I think it'sdeteriorating.
It was deteriorating prior tothe pandemic.
(38:43):
To me, I would say I think thatthe pandemic lit that on fire.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Oh yeah, and there's no stats that say it'll go back.
Everything is saying it's goingto accelerate.
And mental health is not apolitical issue.
People talk about the vice vice.
I talked to Republicans.
I thought they didn't geteveryone's interested in this.
There's not someone who said,well, we don't care about the
mental health of collegestudents.
No one says that.
So yeah, it's an issue that Ithink everyone can get on board
with.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Well, thank you so much for coming by and for
keeping us updated on all ofthis.
Thank you for the partnershipand thank you for setting up the
bridge that helps the programsand universities cross into
helping college students have abetter shot at a deeper sense of
(39:29):
mental health.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, and I would say just a thank you to you because
you know, obviously, you knowwe, we have partnerships and we
vet them and I tell people inthe vendors because so many
times people look at colleges asdollar signs, like, oh, money,
money, money.
And the one thing we say is,like, you know, we really look
at someone who wants to be apart of the team, you know who
really gets it and really has aheart for it.
Because so many people like, oh, I have a program and you know
(39:53):
they don't understand.
Again, your program isheightened, but it wasn't
designed for colleges.
You know we used designed forcolleges.
You know we as a college, so thefact that you were so your
heart was just so passionate.
Like, this is about the kids,this is about the thing.
And, yeah, we raised the moneyfor donors, but yeah, I mean
then the vendors out there islike don't, like, it's always
cause I get solicited all thetime and it's always
(40:14):
discouraging when people talkabout, oh, you know, the money,
the value line, and and it'sjust like it's not about that.
You know, like you said, youreally could make a huge impact
on people's lives and, like youknow, like we did things
different, like you know.
You know, like even our riskmanager, it was like a new idea.
I freaked everyone out, you know, and it was like oh, we have to
do something and we asked youto make a combination of it.
(40:36):
It's like it's a, it's adifferent world out there.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
It was, and I think every attorney there probably
has a little more gray hair as aresult of this program.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Oh, you can imagine the first time they caught the
vision, yeah.
When I first brought it up, Ithought I gave my attorney a
heart attack or something.
But again, it was just some micethat they saw as a liability.
Now they see it as a protectivefactor.
That's right, you know.
And so for all the vendors whowant to work at schools, you
(41:07):
know so many times they theyover promise, you know, yeah,
and they say they do this andyou know, you know.
And they're like, oh, I thinkyou're struggling and you know,
and like I get funny when peoplelike, oh, you must have a wait
list, like we don't have a waitlist because we have all these
programs, you know, or, and theygo and they think they can do
all this and save, and it's like, no, it's a team effort.
You know, like no one thing can, you know, solve everything,
you know, right, and so just theidea that you have a heart
(41:27):
working with us, and like wedon't want to feel like we're
not business partners.
You're like you're a part ofour team, right, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
And that's what it feels like A clinical
partnership.
Dollars and cents have to make.
The money has to make sense,yeah, but that's not the point.
The point is we've, we're we,we want to see college students.
So, because our moniker here iscelebrating restored freedom
and we want to bring thatcelebration of that restored
(41:54):
freedom onto the TCU campus, wepersonally feel honored to be a
part of it.
You know, because, like, likeyou said, there's, there's
aspects of this that we we hadto flex with and you guys flexed
with us, and it is acollaborative team effort
because what is healing?
Because part of the pandemicwas the isolation.
(42:17):
Like you said, the surgeongeneral wrote the book on
loneliness, and that's a problem.
What have we done?
We've built a community.
Yeah, like you said, theSurgeon General wrote the book
on loneliness, and that's aproblem.
What have we done?
We've built a community.
Yeah, exactly, we feel likewe're a part of your community
and I hope you all feel likeyou're part of our community.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
And that's what you need, right, and just to have
that heart out there, because alot of schools are still new to
them, right, you know, like theideal of like.
They'll say we're a school, wedon't do this, and they still
think it's a liability.
So we're easing the narrative,like, no, this is a protective
factor.
You do a lot of good, but we'revery careful about who we
partner with.
Yeah, you know, because wereally want people with a heart
(42:52):
and you have that.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
So If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of mental
wellness, don't forget tosubscribe to the podcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
(43:18):
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long, and in today'sepisode I'm joined by Eric Wood
to discuss a topic that's moreimportant than ever mental
health and college students.
Students face the growing needfor mental health support on
(00:27):
campuses and strategies tofoster resilience and well-being
during these formative years.
Join us for an insightfulconversation packed with
valuable perspectives andpractical advice.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Well welcome Eric Dr Wood.
You can call me Eric, but thankyou, thank you for having me.
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
Well, welcome Eric Dr Wood.
You can call me Eric, but thankyou, thank you for having me.
Yeah, I'm glad you're here.
(00:48):
So your role at TCU, texasChristian University yes, the,
the well, I was going to say theone-time almost football
champion, but I probablyshouldn't bring that up.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Hey, like you said, everyone else was home, so we
got to play for a nationalchampionship.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
That's right.
Yeah, that's right.
So, yeah, you are the head ofthe mental health department.
How do you describe that?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, so I'm the director of the counseling
mental health center, so I haveabout 20 people in our staff,
which is a good number for astudent, about 13,000 of the
student body.
So yeah, we're the studentcounseling center pretty much,
and so it's part of the tuition.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Students can come and see a therapist, you know, for
a wide range of thingsno-transcript, but to have
(02:15):
different providers that are notpart of TCU be partners with
TCU and provide this on campus.
And we kind of kicked this offwith the DBT program, the
Dialectical Behavioral Therapyprogram, and so can you talk us
through where that vision camefrom and how it's grown and what
(02:36):
you've seen?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, so it's just part of the model and it also is
a collaboration.
Talking to other schools, theydon't do it the way we do or
articulate it the way we did,but it's a fact.
Most people don't think aboutcollege mental health.
I know there's a lot ofexpectations on what schools can
provide, but we are a school,we're not a treatment community
and that's not the goal.
To be, a treatment community.
(02:58):
The goal is to be aninstitution of higher education.
But at the same time, you know,college students are a high
demographic for pretty muchanything.
Just I mean name it, secondhighest demographic for suicide
attempts A lot of things emergeor escalate during 1825.
And so we do have a really highkind of, you know, need for
(03:20):
services.
But the ideal is just kind oflooking at okay, we have
colleges, we don't have theprograms, but we do have the
infrastructure, we do have theassets to the students.
You don't have to build ahospital, we have all the
technology right there, but wedon't have the programs.
And that's by design, becausewe were not designed by that.
Right, you're hired, like yousaid, you're a higher education
(03:42):
institution, but we're fortunateto have a lot of treatment
centers that are the opposite.
They have the programs bydesign, they have a program
that's specifically designed forstudents with high mental
health needs, but they don'thave the access to the students,
they don't have theinfrastructure, they don't have
the things that we have.
So the idea is, why don't wejust build a bridge and that's
(04:07):
one of the aspects of our modeland, yeah, that way we go to a
treatment center and say can weuse your program but use our
resources and access?
And then that way, yeah, theideal is that students who have
high mental health needs theywere still taking a lot of our
resources.
If you look at the nationalstudy, most counseling centers
(04:27):
spend about 50% of our sessionson 20% of clients and those are
students with really high mentalhealth needs.
Maybe we refer them off, maybethey go.
We don't go, but someone'salways worried about them.
There's always a safety check,there's always crisis walk-ins,
so we're spending so much timeon them.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, it walk-ins, so we're spending so much time on
them.
Yeah, it eats up you.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
And not to say it eats up, but it really does
dominate a lot of theuniversity's resources.
Yeah, we're spending 50% on 20%of clients.
And then you have these otherstudents who that's what we were
designed for normativedevelopment of concerns, who
can't get in because we're doingit.
So the ideal is, instead ofhiring new staff again.
What would that do?
You know, if we have the samescope of care, we don't have the
programs to give me new staff.
I'm still, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And the interesting thing to in the all of that to
me is that in what are theoutcomes if you are spending
that?
What are the outcomes of that?
50% of the time, yes, are therepositive outcomes.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I mean, and the old, traditional way, like, no, they
weren't getting treatment andthey would just, you know, have
this cycle of coming to thecounseling center doing a safety
check.
Maybe we're for our campus notgoing, you know, and we were
just suspending a lot of timeand, yeah, there's a high risk
things, negative outcomes, couldhappen.
(05:50):
But if you imagine those 20%,if there were programs for them,
you know, if there wassomething that they could go and
they would get in treatment andthe counseling center staff
didn't have to do it, right,yeah, what would be the outcome
then?
Would that trickle down tohaving less after hours on call,
you know?
Would that trickle down to lesshospitalizations?
Would that trickle down to makeit easy for the dean of
students?
Would it trickle down to thecounseling center, because we
have 50% more capacity to seemore students?
(06:12):
There was just that thoughtlike what would be the trickle
down effect?
And we've shown that, yeah, itworks.
Like, if you do that and you dothings for the 20%, the trickle
down effect is phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
The trickle-down effect is phenomenal.
The trickle-down effect for theuniversity is phenomenal, not
to mention the trickle-downeffect for the students.
Yes, I mean, I remember ourfirst year, or our first cycle,
I should say, of our DBT programon the campus, where I think
I'm remembering this correctlythat we were sort of a test case
and what we found the data, theoutcome data that we found was
(06:53):
that the students learned theskills, which was fantastic.
I mean, they're a universitystudent, they're there to learn
right Education is their purposefor being there and they were
learning the skills that we wereteaching in the in the DBT
program.
We found that their incidence ofself-harm dropped.
(07:14):
We had no one who self-harmedwhile they were in.
We had no hospitalizations.
So we had people who wererepetitive, repetitively
hospitalized in the semesters.
They were not hospitalized.
And this one, this one was athing that I don't know why.
This was a surprise to me, butit really was a surprise to me
(07:35):
and when I look at it I should.
I'm like duh, their grades wentup, yeah, their grades went up
because their mental health wasbeing handled or being addressed
and their grades went up, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Oh, absolutely.
And not to mention because thatfirst pilot, I think we had 24
slots and every student that wegave you would have been a
student that traditionally wouldhave been either referred off
campus or would have takenmedical leave, right, and I
think we kept 22 of the 24 inschool that is right Stayed
enrolled, that is right.
And, yeah, we just had so muchindicators.
That was good.
You mentioned that one studentit was a junior who said every
(08:09):
semester they were there, theyhad been hospitalized, they were
not hospitalized, they were inthat program for a year, right,
and then they graduated, right.
And so, yeah, the outcome thatwas just proof of concept like
this is really working, becausenot only, like I said, because
you had all those outcomes, butour counseling, our staff saw
more students, we saw more otherstudents there were less
(08:30):
hospitals.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, yeah, lower acuity students right students
with us lesser concerns, justthe more the typical type of
things and we had more space forthem.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And then our uh, because you know for us, if
someone goes hospital, ourcampus police goes, but we less
patrols, which means that theyhad, you know, less time being
off campus.
You know they could spend moretime on campus.
So again, that just goes downto the trickle effect.
And then you imagine theparents.
You know, I mean the parentswere excited because the
students are staying in schooland they're doing well, the
grades are going up, and theseare students that had a history.
(09:08):
I mean every student we saw onthe pilot.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
The counseling center would not have been able to
there, would those students were.
All of them were beyond a scopeof care, right?
Yeah, the because their, theirlevel of acuity was barely at
the edge of outpatient versusinpatient and inpatient takes
them away from what they'rethere for yeah, and that's what
a lot of people don't understand.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
They think all counseling, counseling is the
same, like, oh, there's acounseling center, it's all the
same and it's just like.
No, you really, like a doctorcan't treat everything, you know
.
That's actually unethical.
So it'd be unethical for me tosay, you know the 13,000
students, the counseling centercan treat them all Right, like
that can't promise that.
We're not that good.
So the ideal is, like somepeople put those expectations,
(09:46):
we'll just go to the counselingcenter.
Where the question is does thecounseling center have the
ability to treat them?
Because if you don't, then kindof what's the point?
So we really have to look howcan we expand our scope of care?
And you can build your ownprogram, hire a bunch of staff,
but why would you if there's atreatment center who already has
the program that you're lookingfor?
(10:07):
It's a lot less expensive yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So this has been so.
The pilot was am I right toremember it was 2018?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
I think it was right before because I became I've
been at TC since 2007, becamedirector at 2019, which is right
before the pandemic happened.
But before that, yeah, we did apilot, so it started, so it was
on the air.
It carried over to 2019, but,yeah, cause I was back in that
summer.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
So yeah, yeah, and so for the last.
So this, this program has beenrolling for now five years.
So what, what like?
What are some of the thingsthat you've seen in these five
years?
So what, what like?
What are some of the thingsthat?
You've seen in these five years, and what?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
yeah, Again, you have to think.
Every student that we refer toyou would be on a scope of care,
so you can make it in terms ofretention.
You know, most of thosestudents at the very least
probably would have taken amedical job for at least a
semester.
They may have come back, but atleast the I mean their academic
progress would have beeninterrupted and their graduation
(11:09):
delay.
So just that alone is worth it.
To sit there and say everysingle student that we've done
every semester probably wouldhave taken a medical job and
left the school and you'realready able to keep them
Because there hasn't been thatmany students in the program
that had to leave.
Most of the students stay inschool, right, and y'all were
able to keep them.
Yeah, because there hasn't beenthat many students in the
program that had to leave.
Like, most of the students stayin school and complete.
So that is it's definitelyamazing, but the thing is
(11:33):
there's so many unknowns, likewe're not going to know, like
how many of those studentsdidn't attempt a suicide, you
know True.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Because we can't prove a negative.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, you can't prove a negative, but those are
students who were at risk for it, you know.
So it's very likely that wesave lives, you know, or at
least attempt suicides, that'svery likely.
Or substances you use, orrelationships.
There's a lot of things that wejust never know, but we do know
.
We have this huge group ofstudents now who've been treated
, and you know better than I do,DVD carries a whole life.
(12:03):
So what is the future impact?
Not only do they stay in schoolthis year, but they use the
school for the year after that.
They probably use those skillswhen they get married as a
parent, you know.
As a coworker, you know,employee.
So you know, we'll never knowthat, but we can say I mean, we
hear the students and say thisprogram is amazing.
And of all of our programs, theDBT is the one we hear the most
positive feedback about.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Oh, thank you, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Oh yeah.
Because I guess the emotionalregulation and we hear from
parents yeah, I mean you'rechanging people's those lives
and yeah, and it helps us,because when y'all do that work,
we're free to do more.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
See more students, wow, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I I didn't, I didn't know that.
Um, I know that when it, whenyou go back to the idea of
outcomes, you know it's.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I've recently published an article in the
cognitive therapy and researchjournal and um when the pandemic
hit, when the shutdown hit, andso, if you think about that, I
mean that is formative years ofa lot of relationships and the
way you think about the worldand things like that.
And so that cohort now has thisframe of reference where they
(13:14):
were doing a shutdown during itsformative years.
The world has been hostile forthem, so they don't know what
it's like not to have wars, notto have a pandemic and
everything like that, and so,and then they transition a lot
of them to a new school the nextyear, into high school, all
that stuff.
So we are definitely seeing2008 is different, because
(13:36):
before, right after the pandemic, there was a lot of separation,
anxiety, there's a lot ofdisconnect, and now we're seeing
the people who are in juniorhigh.
They have a fundamentallydifferent view of the world,
which makes total sense, and weexpect it for the next couple of
years that way.
I mean, yeah, when people inelementary come to college, it
might be a little morestabilized, but for this cohort,
(13:58):
for the next three or fouryears, if you think about where
they were when the pandemic hitand how that formed their view
of the world, their view ofrelationships, their view of
themselves how they handleemotions.
Yeah, these next three or fouryears is really important for
college mental health justbecause of that developmental
lifestyle.
So we're definitely seeing thathealth just because of that
developmental life.
Yeah, so we're definitelyseeing that.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
That's so.
You're so right, that's sointeresting to consider that
this cause you're you're sayingthat the the graduating class
from TCU of 2028 is is theincome?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, incoming.
They'll graduate in 28.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, and so that the the the the impact of the
pandemic in their development,and we're seeing that in college
now in the mental healthlandscape.
That's so interesting.
Deborah Atkinson was here aweek or so ago and she was
talking about how we haveexclaimed that the pandemic is
(14:55):
over and it's like but do werecognize the impact that the
pandemic has had on us or do wejust shut it down and leave it
behind?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean it's a global trauma.
You know just even the shutdown, because that altered.
If you look at the definitionof trauma, that altered it.
You know even the shutdown did,because you know all the SAMHSA
definition and met with it.
But yeah, it's one thing ifyou're an adult, you know you
cope with it.
You know because maybe you lostyour job but you got a new job.
You know, in relationships, butwhen you were a junior high and
(15:24):
that happened and it was aformative year, it changes your
whole perspective of things.
But yeah, it's not going to goback.
You know there's going to be adifferent type of student and
(15:45):
that's just the way it is.
It's huge world history.
You see it in other history,when World War II happened, the
college students were different,you know.
So you see, anything thataffects the globe is going to
affect it.
Like we say, what affects youas a person affects you as a
learner, and so it makes perfectsense.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah, and it's that's .
I love that.
That's so interesting toconceptualize it from that
perspective, because that's notjust TCU, that's everyone.
Yeah, that's the landscape ofuniversity students.
Yeah, Worldwide.
Wow Is there.
Is there any other trends thatyou see on the mental health
(16:17):
landscape?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I mean in terms of mental health, anxiety as a
priest, depression and thingslike that.
But I think right now, theother kind of global thing I
don't know if you heard aboutthe demographic cliff.
So right now, to start nextyear, there is literally less
17-year-olds on the planet nowthan there's ever been.
Oh right, and it goes down from10 years Like seven-year-olds.
It sounds like the distance isgreat.
So we know, about 10 yearsthere's literally less of them.
(16:44):
It's because my generation hasless kids.
So yeah, so there's literallygoing to be theoretically less
college students and it startsnext year.
So you, you're already seeingsome of like the directional,
smaller colleges close, um,enrollment numbers, but people
are thinking, okay, what is thatgoing to be the impact of that,
of just having fewer collegestudents?
(17:06):
That, because now colleges youknow a lot of them are having
budget constraints you knowcutting this so it's not.
Most people think, like the bigstate schools and elite private
schools would be okay.
But if you look about the, youknow Southwest, whatever
Southwest those are strugglingin enrollment and so some people
think, you know, how's thatgoing to help?
You know the student support,because I mean, you definitely
(17:29):
need that and one of the thingsthat's also interesting is how
people pick colleges.
It used to be for academicreasons why do I want to pick
college for this?
But now there's been such ashift of people thinking, oh,
you even need college, you donot.
But now the number one thing Ijust heard, I think, with Gallup
poll that people are pickingcollege based on student support
.
Families want to know what isthe life of the student going to
(17:50):
be like on college.
That has surpassed academicreputation now.
So then that like yeah, thatwith the demographic cliff, you
would think that a lot ofschools you know are thinking
well, how do we support ourstudents now, since there's
going to be less of them andthat's going to be a priority?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So do you see this?
Do you see other universitiestrying to race to the party and
try to create?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Oh yeah, you already see it, like if people are
talking.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I mean, that's why a lot of people look at TCU, cause
you know we have a lot ofthings at TCU, um, but that's a
lot of I'm sorry to interruptyou, but a lot, not just a lot
of things at TCU, but there's alot of proven entities at TCU
where you have kept we, I know,I know we keep data because we
want to understand outcomes.
I mean, just as an organization, we all want to know what our
(18:44):
outcomes are, because that'sgreat if everybody feels great
and wants to sing Kumbaya afterwe end a session.
But at the end of the day, whatdo you take with you?
That's what's important.
I mean, yes, it's important tohave a good feeling at the end,
I guess, but it's the, like yousaid, are we impacting you down
the road?
And so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
No, I mean that's huge for us Because I mean, yeah
, when we started, it was suchan out-of-box like new thing,
yeah.
And so, yeah, we're verycareful.
What data do we collect?
We do have a network of schools.
I've talked to government, wentto Austin, even talked to, like
the Surgeon General in DC andall that.
And, yeah, you need to have thedata to say that this actually
works.
Because that's our goal.
I mean, I told my boss when wefirst started I want to change
(19:23):
college mental health, becauseif you think about the mental
health epidemic of America,where would you start?
And you know, when I talked togovernment officials, I said
start with colleges.
It's not the end-all be-all,but, yeah, you have an
infrastructure, like you said.
You have people, we have thebuildings, we have the
technology, we have the accessto the biodemographic.
There's not a lot of systemsthat have that and you can do so
(19:44):
much good with so less money.
Right, but just collaborate,don't build new things, just
collaborate with things that arealready there.
Already there, yeah, and thatmessage has resonated.
But that's the question how youknow it works.
And we've been doing this forfive years and we have all the
data we can talk to students.
We have all the things and ofcourse it just makes sense like
the programs that we have, likeyou and the other treatment
(20:04):
centers.
Again, these programs weredesigned right for students with
mental health needs.
So there's a lot of evidencebase, a lot of validation.
They're not like these new, youknow out of nowhere you know
programs.
It's just like, it's just noone's ever thought about it.
It's like, oh, do we have theinfrastructure?
They have the program, let'sjust combine them.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, when, you, when and I want to come back to
something that you said aboutthe, the U S surgeon general.
I want to.
I want to hover over that for aminute.
But when you, when you,approached me about this idea, I
thought, oh my gosh, howbrilliant is this?
Because we would always marketto you all to say, hey, we're
here, we have a relationship, welove to work with this age
(20:47):
group.
And when you said, well, whydon't we create a partnership?
I thought that is one of themost brilliant things I've ever
heard.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
well, part of it is neat because, I mean, some of
the time, some students, they'llnever go off campus, right, you
know.
Because they have all thesequestions like if I go off
campus, who am I going to be ingroup with you know, um, or is
it, you know, like we havedonors that pay for it?
You know they can't afford topay for it.
They don't have a car, theycan't even get here, right?
So there's a lot of barriers tothat.
(21:16):
But when you put it on campusit just reduces a lot of the
barriers.
I mean the stigma like you'reonly going to be in group with
college students and we do it tosupport you in academics.
That's why we're really big onfundraising, because then we can
say you don't have to pay forit, it's not out of pocket cost.
We try to take the excuses away, or the barriers, I should say
(21:36):
away, and that is the best wayto do it on campus.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, I mean, it truly is your heart for the
college students.
I mean it's really evident.
So let's go back to the SurgeonGeneral and let's hover over
that for a minute.
Tell us more about what thatmeeting was about.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah Well, I mean we're going to get a new Surgeon
General, obviously, but thelast one, he is very big on
mental health.
I don't know if you've readanything about the Surgeon
General, but social media, youknow, impact mental health and
most Surgeon Generals they'llpick a cause, you know, but a
lot of them is like physical,you know Right, so if we have a
surgeon general, say, mentalhealth is going to be his cause
(22:20):
and he wrote a book onloneliness, you know, and I mean
that's just his platform.
So I mean it was a think tank inDC and he was presenting at the
beginning and I was actuallypresenting with the former
director of Secretary of Healthand Human Services at the last
panel, and so we were justtalking and he was, you know, he
kind of agreed, you knowcollege and he's done college
tours like he, not because of me, I'm just saying he kind of
(22:44):
gets it.
Um, but I've done stuff.
It's just like september.
I did like a one-hour briefingwith the white house office of
science technology and they justwanted to talk and they said
this is like it made sense, likethey said they like how you're
doing because it'll cost lessmoney like they were just
thinking in that way.
Um, and then austin talked tothe behavioral health
coordinated councils and thatwas a good example because that
(23:05):
was a couple years ago.
But just to give you an example, it was there's the behavioral
health coordinating councils,all the department, like health
services, just like theirleadership, and like one of them
was a substance use council andthey were talking about a
campaign they were running atthe time and they had difficulty
getting in a certain parts ofTexas.
You know they can get into theDallas area, the Houston, but
(23:27):
like the El Paso and all therural areas had a hard time into
.
I looked at that and I waspresident of our state
association.
I was like there's a schoolevery.
I looked at that and I waspresident of our state
association.
I was like there's a school,every single part of the map
that they are saying they can'tget into.
So I was like would you send methat?
And you know, and they said andI just sent it to all the
directors and I remember shesaid you accomplished more in
five minutes.
What did we did in two yearsand it's just again.
(23:47):
People just don't's right there,but no one really has thought
about that.
You know, a lot of schoolsdon't even think about working
with, like I mean, especiallyrural areas, there's mental
health authorities.
A lot of schools don't eventhink about working with them.
Right, you know so.
And now, if you look at it,there's a map interacting with
(24:13):
colleges so you can see howclose these colleges are and see
that was because of us.
This is people never reallythought about it, like it's
right there, the demographic isright there, but people just
never thought about partying atthe school.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And it's so interesting because it's like
what an overlooked demographicright, but it's the vital
demographic.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
The 1825 is a demographic that most people are
worried about the most, right,you know.
I mean obviously you wantearlier, but people don't get
confidentiality until they're 18, right, so it's like really
effective um well in consentyeah, informed consent then you
have to be.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
You're always concerned about the parental
informed consent.
Younger, yeah, yeah and andwhen, when they turn 18, it's
like they get to choose on theirown yeah and, and then try
working with high schools ofbureaucracy or working with
independent school districts.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
It's like because we've had some people try to use
us with high schools and justlike, I only understand the red
tape there, but with collegesyou don't have that right
because they can choose forthemselves.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, wow, that that's really neat, and so that
did.
Am I right to recall that theSurgeon General gave you an
award of some sort?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
No, not the award, I'm trying to think We've gotten
a lot of recognition.
So, look, we wrote an e-bookand that was because I was
inspired by Adonis, because allthe stuff we were doing, you
know, we had, like we did awebinar, we had like a hundred
schools show up, you know, andeveryone was asking me what do
you do?
So I just put together like,and it took like six weeks to
write.
You know, it wasn't that hard,it was just about what we did a
(25:44):
philosophy, we had fourdifferent objectives.
Put it on a website and Idonated all the money and I was
go to the donor fund and thatwon an award, that won an
international media award, andit raised a lot of money.
Like some people buy one copyand give like $10,000.
You know, it's just like wow,because all the money goes
straight to the students.
So there's no bureaucracy,which is good because you don't
(26:06):
have to be a million dollardonor.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
You know, if you want to give a couple hundred bucks,
you know that goes a long wayand that's right.
So that got a lot of attention.
Is that still available?
Oh yeah, if you go in thecounseling center website, so
counselingtcedu, there's a tablike in the about it says ebook
Okay.
And if someone goes in there weask like for $25 and that's
kind of tax purposes, like youhave to market it above the
(26:34):
market value if that makes sensebecause it's a donation.
So if you say 10 bucks, it'sjust you can buy the book.
Yeah, so you have to market itabove to say it's a donation.
But it's not uncommon thatsomebody will go and like you
see, oh, here's a 500 for onecopy, that's really and it's
like wow.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
but they know it's a fundraiser and the neat thing to
that is is that every timesomebody gives above the market
value and they give the $500,that's a student can get a
number of sessions out of thisand you may be the difference,
like you donating that.
You may be the differencebetween somebody living and
(27:11):
potentially committing suicide.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah, I mean, we've had students so this program
kept them from committingsuicide.
We have huge stories ofstudents saying that and they
tell their parents that and theytell us that Even other schools
they do it.
They'll say the same thing.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
And so now you so currently you were invited to be
a guest columnist to Forbesmagazine.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Well, yeah, I started .
So it's a contributor toForbescom, that's like the
official title.
Yeah, it just so happenedbecause we were getting a lot of
national press of all this andit's kind of serendipitously,
like one of our TCU nationalmarketing people used to work
for Forbes.
And she was like yeah, Forbes,you're right, Because you know
they're a business, they do alot of other stuff, but they had
(27:56):
never done anything in collegemental health.
So we had a couple meetings andthey were like, yeah, try it,
you know, so I'm maybe acontributor, so you can follow
me.
Eric Wood, just on Forbes, andit's all about college mental
health and emerging adulthood.
It's new.
It just started like inSeptember.
So it's a kind of a new column,but so far so good I I will tell
(28:17):
you I'm enjoying the heck outof it.
Oh, thank you every friday yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I get the little email thatsays yeah, and I told you I
want to write a piece aboutemotional regulation, dbt.
Yeah, because I think everyschool should do that.
Yeah, I mean, every time youthink about the impact, what if
every school had a dbt programavailable to the students?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
yeah, I, I think every school.
If, if every school even had arequired course for all their
students to learn emotionregulation and interpersonal
skills you know, distress,tolerance, emotional regulation
and the interpersonal skills Ithink we could slowly begin to
change the world I think youcould I'm.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
One thing about the class is students are paying for
it.
You know they're paying for theclasses we do our way and they
don't pay for it.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
That's right, that's right.
Yeah, so yeah, and so what'sbeen the?
Have you had feedback on theForbes?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Oh yeah, I mean, like I said, it's like a well to be,
but just the fact that they'redoing it, you know, just the
fact that Forbes is has in thecollege, mental health is out
there and even like to havemainstream like I, you know any
of you a couple of counselingdirectors about.
(29:27):
There is like a whole thingabout ranking counseling centers
and there was like pros andcons to that.
So you know, so you get to be alot, a lot of experts and to
really kind of give and it's onthe website.
So go there forever, you know,yeah.
So yeah, it's been a goodexperience, it's been fun.
I've learned a lot, you know,just doing it, it's not a long
read, you know.
It's only like a thousand pages, you know.
So maybe two, three minute read.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
A thousand words, not pages.
Yeah, a thousand pages.
Yeah, that's war and peace.
Yeah, that's war and peace.
So yeah, as long as they keeptelling me to do it, I would do
it.
That's really neat.
I love that there's a spotlighton mental health, but also for
this age group, because, again,this age group is, this is the
(30:11):
training for our futuregenerations, and I often think
that if we overlook thegeneration that's in university,
regardless of the timeframe,whether it's the Jenna, gen Z or
or whatever comes I don't knowwhat comes up after Gen Z
(30:32):
Millennials.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Is there something that works?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, there's so many of them that you know somebody
was saying to me I don't want tobe irrelevant when I'm 60 in
the workforce, and my responseto them were was the only way
we're irrelevant in theworkforce when we're 60 is if we
have ill will or disdain forthe generation that is two
(30:56):
generations below you, or twoand a half generations below you
, because they're the onescoming up, half generations
below you, because they're theones coming up in the workforce
and they're the ones that it's,at that point, will be the, the
rising superstars, right, makingdecisions and things like this,
and so it's.
It really is a care for all,for that generation that's up
and coming.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah and that's why a lot of people work in college
mental health, why we work incollege mental health, and
because it was like, oh, you cando all this other stuff.
But I mean, 1825 is also likewhen things emerge is actually
the best time to treat them.
That's right.
And a lot of times people willsay for us, like, you can see
the different trajectory, likeif they have this family history
and, let's say, somethinghappens and they get treated,
(31:38):
you, you can literally seethey're on a different
trajectory and it's easierbecause most of them aren't
married, they haven't written acareer, they're talking about
school, so the consequences areless.
And so a lot of people who workin college mental health will
say that's one of the reasonswhy it's so fulfilling, because
you know like, oh, it's moretangible to see, like this
(32:00):
person's on a differenttrajectory and so so, yeah, the
ramifications for their futurefamily future, everything, um,
but that's what we do.
Individual, but, yeah, think ofit as a nation or you know, it's
a globe, right thought.
You know, yeah, there's otherareas.
I'm not going to say this isend all, be all.
You think that, but if youreally put a focus on the 1825
yield, yeah, I mean, it mighttake a couple generations,
(32:20):
generations, but you will make ahuge dent in the whole epidemic
of society.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Yeah, and that, like you said, the malleability of
that age group, like the, brainis not even forming.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
So, as I say, it's literally easier to treat.
If you can get treated rightnow, yeah, they wait 10 to 15
years.
It could be more ingrainedtheir bodies, you know, and
their brain is brains moreformed.
Now they're talking about childcustody, their marriages, but
you get them before they haveany of that, you know.
That's right.
So it's literally easier.
In colleges, like I said, it'sprobably the easiest time to
(32:52):
access, like literally most ofthe college students live by us
or they travel by us everysingle day.
You know I can get thatcommunity provider.
Like, if you're working there,you're not going to literally be
able to just drive by acounseling center, right, see, a
licensed professor without evertaking out your wallet, a
licensed professional withoutever taking out your wallet, you
know.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
All they do is show us a 9ID.
You know Right.
So it literally is, in terms ofaccess, I think, probably the
easiest time to access.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's the easiest time to access.
It's the easiest time to access.
It's this building, this bridge.
Once it was built, it justmakes all the sense in the world
.
I feel very honored that, thatwe got to be the pilot study, um
, and I also feel honored toknow that it's a, that there's
such a beautiful positive impactthat you guys get a lot of good
feedback.
That's uh, that's superhonoring.
One of the things that we loveto do is, uh, any advice for our
(33:48):
listeners, because you know,restoration beyond the couch,
it's you know.
Do you have any advice or any?
Do you want to leave any points, point or points for our
listeners that you think, gosh,this would be really helpful for
them to consider, think about,know.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
I mean all different types of advice, I mean the
things that we're talking about.
Like you know, we talked aboutparents and yeah, it's certainly
because, especially with thisgeneration, a lot of times
parents, they lose the fact thatthey are still the number one
influence on the student's lives.
You look at all the data.
I know the attitudes somestudents give their parents
Trust me, I've seen it andstudents, you know parents seem
(34:29):
to feel like they're hopelessand lost.
You know, with their kidsbecause there's so much other
stuff and they'll speak a wholedifferent language.
But I know from personalexperience people look at the
data what is the number oneinfluence on a student's life is
going to be their parents youknow.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
That's where that's worth like hovering over for
just a moment, because I think,I think that you're right that
as parents there is we lose thethe um, we lose the idea, we
lose the notion that as a parent, we still are the most
impactful relationship.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, oh, we hear it all the time and people, parents
, like I don't know how to sayto approach my student and when
I tell them the process is moreimportant than the content.
You know, I love that, just thefact that you just went and
tried it, even if it's awkward.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Because it's going to be awkward.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
And even if you stumble, even if you sit and
don't know what to say.
The student's going to rememberthat, like my parent tried to
have this conversation, so theprocess is definitely more
important.
But the one thing I tell, thestat that I tell all the parents
is for colleges or us.
We literally keep track of itand every year it's about around
85% of students say they comebecause somebody asked them to.
(35:40):
Every year it's about around 85percent of students say they
come because somebody asked themto.
Like it's very rare for astudent on their own to be like,
oh, I'm struggling, wow, let mecall the counseling center like
that just does not happen.
And you say the same with othercounseling.
Most people think, oh, it'sright there, just do it.
No, they don't.
They usually will suffer insilence for way too long until
somebody sees them and says youneed to get help and most likely
(36:02):
the parent is the best one.
You know faculty is good, ra isgood, but a parent to just
reach out and, like I said, ifyou notice anything change,
that's a green light.
You know like people look forsigns, like they're all going to
look, like all the lists of redflags, but you know you're a
student.
If there's any reason for youto be concerned, say something.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
That's such a great point because I think as a, as a
parent, you you don't alwaysconsider that you know, you know
that student, you know yourchild well, and if you see
anything out of the ordinarythat I think that's very wise to
point that out to parents isyou don't wait for there to be
some red flag on a sheet thatsomebody's written of.
You know they're talking thisway or they're saying this.
You know your student, you knowyour kid.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Oh, I can't tell you how many times a parent has said
something and just made anobservation that they just looks
different.
And it wasn't on any red flag,but that was like, oh, like that
is.
That was the point.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And because the parents they have that history
you know, they literally knowthis student longer than anyone
else.
That's right.
You know so they're the experton their students.
But sometimes they lose sightof that and they refer to flags
or they defer to us and it'slike okay, yeah, we're
professionals, but you know thestudents so.
But again, most students willnot come to us counseling
centers unless somebody nudgesthem.
Yeah, that makes sense theyjust don't pick up the phone and
(37:20):
be like I'm depressed.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Right, they're not.
They're not interpersonallyaware, they don't.
I don't think.
I think most of us don't carryaround a real deep sense of
self-awareness, and I think thatage group is still developing
that sense of self-awareness,and so you're right, yeah, and
they need a nudge.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Well, not just like, go to Cal, they need a nudge,
someone to be like hey, sit themdown and be like we're really
concerned about you.
Here's a resource on the campusNice, so that is the biggest
advice I could teach a student.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of studentsand parents want to know how to
help out, because we do.
We're seeing this other schoolsLike I was a president of our
state association.
(37:58):
There's some talk of all of ourstate association doing this.
I give you new flash for thebig 12 schools.
We're working on a suicideprevention collaborative.
All together, I'm on thenational board.
So this is changing, you know.
And so a lot of people who youknow.
It's like well, how can I help?
Yeah, if you go in and, likeyou know, the ebook's a good way
, you know it goes through that.
But it's also a model of otherschools, you know, and we've
(38:21):
done stuff to help other schoolstoo.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
I think that's neat because it's you're right, it's.
This is a, this is a national,international issue, especially
after the pandemic and thetrauma, the global trauma we've
all experienced there, andmental health has become, I
think it's deteriorated.
It was deteriorating prior tothe pandemic.
To me, I would say I think it'sdeteriorating.
It was deteriorating prior tothe pandemic.
(38:43):
To me, I would say I think thatthe pandemic lit that on fire.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Oh yeah, and there's no stats that say it'll go back.
Everything is saying it's goingto accelerate.
And mental health is not apolitical issue.
People talk about the vice vice.
I talked to Republicans.
I thought they didn't geteveryone's interested in this.
There's not someone who said,well, we don't care about the
mental health of collegestudents.
No one says that.
So yeah, it's an issue that Ithink everyone can get on board
with.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Well, thank you so much for coming by and for
keeping us updated on all ofthis.
Thank you for the partnershipand thank you for setting up the
bridge that helps the programsand universities cross into
helping college students have abetter shot at a deeper sense of
(39:29):
mental health.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, and I would say just a thank you to you because
you know, obviously, you knowwe, we have partnerships and we
vet them and I tell people inthe vendors because so many
times people look at colleges asdollar signs, like, oh, money,
money, money.
And the one thing we say is,like, you know, we really look
at someone who wants to be apart of the team, you know who
really gets it and really has aheart for it.
Because so many people like, oh, I have a program and you know
(39:53):
they don't understand.
Again, your program isheightened, but it wasn't
designed for colleges.
You know we used designed forcolleges.
You know we as a college, so thefact that you were so your
heart was just so passionate.
Like, this is about the kids,this is about the thing.
And, yeah, we raised the moneyfor donors, but yeah, I mean
then the vendors out there islike don't, like, it's always
cause I get solicited all thetime and it's always
(40:14):
discouraging when people talkabout, oh, you know, the money,
the value line, and and it'sjust like it's not about that.
You know, like you said, youreally could make a huge impact
on people's lives and, like youknow, like we did things
different, like you know.
You know, like even our riskmanager, it was like a new idea.
I freaked everyone out, you know, and it was like oh, we have to
do something and we asked youto make a combination of it.
(40:36):
It's like it's a, it's adifferent world out there.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
It was, and I think every attorney there probably
has a little more gray hair as aresult of this program.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Oh, you can imagine the first time they caught the
vision, yeah.
When I first brought it up, Ithought I gave my attorney a
heart attack or something.
But again, it was just some micethat they saw as a liability.
Now they see it as a protectivefactor.
That's right, you know.
And so for all the vendors whowant to work at schools, you
(41:07):
know so many times they theyover promise, you know, yeah,
and they say they do this andyou know, you know.
And they're like, oh, I thinkyou're struggling and you know,
and like I get funny when peoplelike, oh, you must have a wait
list, like we don't have a waitlist because we have all these
programs, you know, or, and theygo and they think they can do
all this and save, and it's like, no, it's a team effort.
You know, like no one thing can, you know, solve everything,
you know, right, and so just theidea that you have a heart
(41:27):
working with us, and like wedon't want to feel like we're
not business partners.
You're like you're a part ofour team, right, you know.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
And that's what it feels like A clinical
partnership.
Dollars and cents have to make.
The money has to make sense,yeah, but that's not the point.
The point is we've, we're we,we want to see college students.
So, because our moniker here iscelebrating restored freedom
and we want to bring thatcelebration of that restored
(41:54):
freedom onto the TCU campus, wepersonally feel honored to be a
part of it.
You know, because, like, likeyou said, there's, there's
aspects of this that we we hadto flex with and you guys flexed
with us, and it is acollaborative team effort
because what is healing?
Because part of the pandemicwas the isolation.
(42:17):
Like you said, the surgeongeneral wrote the book on
loneliness, and that's a problem.
What have we done?
We've built a community.
Yeah, like you said, theSurgeon General wrote the book
on loneliness, and that's aproblem.
What have we done?
We've built a community.
Yeah, exactly, we feel likewe're a part of your community
and I hope you all feel likeyou're part of our community.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
And that's what you need, right, and just to have
that heart out there, because alot of schools are still new to
them, right, you know, like theideal of like.
They'll say we're a school, wedon't do this, and they still
think it's a liability.
So we're easing the narrative,like, no, this is a protective
factor.
You do a lot of good, but we'revery careful about who we
partner with.
Yeah, you know, because wereally want people with a heart
(42:52):
and you have that.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
So If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of mental
wellness, don't forget tosubscribe to the podcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
(43:18):
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
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