July 29, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with counselor Mark Foster to talk about the process of managing grief. Together, they explore what grief can look like, how it shows up in daily life, and healthy ways to navigate the pain of loss. Whether you're grieving now or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers practical guidance and hope.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and today I'mjoined by Mark Foster, a
therapist, here at Restoration.
In this episode, we're havingan honest conversation about
grief, the reality behind movingon, the myths that keep us
stuck and the transformativetruth that grief isn't something
(00:24):
to overcome but something tolearn to carry with grace and
wisdom.
Whether you're walking throughyour own grief, supporting
someone you love through loss,or helping your community heal
from collective trauma, thisepisode offers practical
strategies for navigating griefas a pathway to deeper
(00:45):
connection, meaning, ultimately,restored freedom.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Well, welcome, mark Foster.
About the concept of grief andabout just the heaviness of it,
(01:10):
but also the acceptance of itand the way through it, and I
know you've been a therapist forthree decades, or more and
you've worked with a lot offamilies and a lot of people
who've walked through somereally hard times, so I'm glad
you're here with us today.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh, thank you lot of people who've walked through
some really hard times, so I'mglad you're here with us today.
Oh, thank you.
I'm glad to be here too and nota fun thing to talk about, but
necessary yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
it's interesting, though, to think about like
grief and how we expect likethat.
Like the, the dsm-5, thediagnostic statisticalth edition
, says grief is supposed toresolve in six months.
Right, I don't know what yourtake is on that, but, man, mine,
I don't know that griefresolves in six months, right?
(01:56):
I mean, I remember, I mean youknow this, but I lost my parents
, both of them probably 18,almost 19 years ago now, five
weeks to the day apart, and Iremember my mom died first, and
she's such a sweet lady came in,she was the hospice social
(02:18):
worker.
And she came in and she said Idon't know what to say to you
guys.
I'm sorry that you lost yourmom.
And she said a few things andthought yeah, yeah, yeah, grief,
grief, grief, right.
And then my dad died, literallyagain five weeks to the day,
yeah.
And she walked in and she saidI don't know what to say to you.
(02:38):
She said this is a lot and it'soverwhelming, yeah, and it was
kind of like charlie brownteacher, like wah, wah, wah, wah
.
But then she said something.
She said I want to leave youguys a lot and it's overwhelming
.
Yeah, and it was kind of likeCharlie Brown teacher, like wah,
wah, wah, wah.
But then she said something.
She said I want to leave youguys with this.
She said grief is like ablanket.
She said it is going to for aperiod of time it is going to
live over you.
(03:00):
And she said at some pointyou're going to be able to stand
up and you're going to fold theblanket, but you're not ever
going to be able to throw theblanket out.
Wow, she said you'll put theblanket on the shelf and at
times you're going to need totake the blanket down and
sometimes you're going to need,to your life, a tent under the
blanket.
And it was one of the mostpowerful things and I remember
(03:37):
just stopping saying I'll neverforget that.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, thank you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And when I think about our field, saying grief is
supposed to resolve within sixmonths, I often wonder if they
mean you're not going to live inthe tent of the blanket.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
For six months.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
But I'll tell you, you know, like I said almost 19
years in this past Christmas,for whatever reason, I needed
that blanket sometimes.
Yeah, you know, yeah, so Idon't know what's your take.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I agree, I think it's a great illustration or picture
.
Yeah, maybe the DSM is sayingyou'll fold it in six months.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
If you're fortunate, but I don't think that can ever
be hard and fast.
Yeah, because people go throughthis at their own pace, in their
own way and it is always goingto be there.
I lost my dad over a year agoand I'm still having times where
it hits me and I need toexperience that.
(04:42):
I know it's kind of maybejumping ahead of the way it goes
, but just to say something Irealized just this week about it
that the realization of my dadnow like where I believe he is
(05:02):
and the perfected state he's in,helps me look back on who he
was in my past and I can seethose good things with dignity
and I can look at them withoutany incrimination and go.
That was a bit of the picturethat I know you're just
completed in now and it helps mehonor those things and not
(05:24):
ignore them because of thethings he did that weren't a
part of the picture that he isnow but it just let me honor
that.
And sometimes I've thoughtpeople, when they are grieving
and they lose somebody, thatthey deify that person.
Yes, they make them a saint.
I'm like, no, I remember theyweren't really.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, I mean right, like I remember.
There's plenty of stories I cansay, boy, that's a dad issue or
that was a mom thing.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, and but what it's helped me do is to say yeah
, that was true and so was this,and I can see that now with
more joy and honoring andfullness, without any kind of
lingering.
Yeah, but you know, it's just ayeah, it was and it is and it
(06:13):
will be just something.
So it kind of goes back andforth from the picture I know
where he is now to the picturewhere he was then and where that
is in me right now and itreally helps me right now?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, and it really helps me move forward with hope.
So it's not.
So it's not overlooking, no,who he is and who he was.
No, it's accepting that andsaying, yeah, at times you had
grief.
I mean, we both had grief intheir lifetime that they
inflicted but it's it's.
(06:47):
It's honoring the completionthat you know he's operating in.
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think I think it'simportant to to know that grief
evolves.
You know, and I think that'swhat the blanket analogy was, a
grief will evolve.
It does not come to an endabsolutely.
And I know, um, I know one ofthe things that, man, both of us
(07:11):
have sat with parents who havelost their children.
Yeah, when grief gets out oforder, yeah when loss maybe it's
not grief gets out of order,but loss is out of order, like
that's not the design, right?
The design is that as a parent,you outlive your kid, but in
the brutal, unfortunate timethat that isn't the case, it
(07:33):
feels it is out of order.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And I know that one of the things that I've sat with
parents who have had thatunfortunate miss or misordered
event that one of the thingsthat they stick with is is I
don't want to move on.
I don't want to move on becauseI feel like I'm going to leave
(07:57):
them behind.
Have you, have you had thatsame experience?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Oh, absolutely, I know it, but I don't want to go
there.
I don't want to, and it's notmoving on without them, it's
moving on with those things likewe were talking about, just now
with the honoring of them Ialways kind of talk about that
(08:23):
with them is tell me about them,tell me about what they were
like, what the good times, whatmade you laugh and I've had part
of grief is remembering thatand crying and laughing right at
the same time yeah, you know Ilove that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I I always tell parents you're not moving on
because you can't.
No, but you're moving withthat's right because they're not
defined by that one.
No ill-fated day no, that theywere taken from your presence
right, but instead it's you'removing with where they currently
(09:00):
are.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Mm-hmm, yeah, and that changes us.
Yeah, I mean there's a hugechange in their absence and the
impact of that on us, mm-hmm,and we move forward with that
and I do think, as Christianswho know where they are, it is a
huge blessing to know that I ammoving with you where you are,
(09:24):
huge blessing to know that I ammoving with you where you are.
Almost everybody, christian ornot, that I have talked to will
tell me.
I think I felt their presenceyesterday, or it's almost as if
maybe I did hear them saysomething to me and I used to in
my younger days, poo-poo that Imean, that's a technical term,
(09:46):
poo-poo, of course it is Thankyou, but I don't now, man, I
think maybe, having gone throughwith families and friends, and
then my own, it's no, I reallydo believe that there is a sense
of and a reality of thatpresence with us.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It's not made up.
I can't tell you how manyparents I have heard tell a very
similar story of.
I mean, I remember one fatherwho lost his children, his
(10:30):
children, and he said, you know,I was working on something in
my office, I was in a conferenceroom, and he said, all of a
sudden I felt one of my kidsbasically come to me and audibly
say, dad, I'm good and I needto know you are too.
And it was a moment for him,wow, and I think the I didn't
(11:07):
expect to be impacted like this,Because he he cried through the
whole thing and I cried withhim through the whole thing
because it's so out of order andfor him to have that gift, that
(11:32):
experience, yeah, absolutely,it was so profound and it was
such a moment of normalizing forhim, like you said, that there
may be those moments, yeah, andnot to technically poo-poo them,
but to really embrace them andenjoy them, that they're a gift
(11:55):
that's right that's right, youknow that's right, but it's, I
think you're right and I thinkit's.
That was a moment for him wherehe could move with.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Because there was that space of you know, I know
you're okay, and people may sayyou know, rash like people who
consider themselves like logicalthinkers may say, oh well, that
just was a moment that yourmind created.
And here's my statement to thatis okay so what If it brought
(12:32):
you peace and it's notdestroying anybody else or
taking anything from anybodyelse, why does it matter?
And so what a beautifulexperience for people to have.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I got to share one.
Now, come on.
I was cleaning out my parents'house after dad died and I was
going through his clothes mydad's very meticulous to be
generous, it's very meticulousto be generous and I literally
came down to the last pair ofpants and I thought, man, I just
(13:10):
wish that there was.
Oh man, I'm going to cry.
I wish there was something here.
That was just.
I could remember him by.
And I literally heard look inthe pocket.
I looked in that pocket andthere was his silver dollar that
(13:32):
he carried with him every day.
I wish I could pull it out nowand show you that I have it, but
I don't.
I don't wear it, I don't put itin the pocket so it might fall
out, because I don't want tolose that sucker.
It's, it's in my nightstand,you know.
But I just thought how did Ihear that?
How did I know that pocket,that pair of pants?
That was either God or my dad,I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, either way it's comfort.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Either way, it's the allowing to move on it's like
losing a body part yeah you knowit's like you.
You can learn to functionwithout a leg, but you, you will
always remember, you willalways have that with you.
(14:18):
That's right, you know.
I know that, as we grieve itlike, it's certainly not a
linear pattern, I know there'syou know, we have the five
stages of grief right the denial, the anger, the bargaining, the
depression, the acceptance.
Which is what's interestingabout those five is those were
(14:40):
observations of dying patients.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Not the um, the survivors who are grieving, but
I, I think they, I do think thata lot of that does apply.
Yeah, and it's there, it's.
It's not like a timeline thatyou're gonna, you know metic
know meticulously go througheach of them no.
(15:04):
But it's like a, it's like aweather pattern.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
You know it may be raining at lunch, like you may
be in denial at lunch andacceptance at dinner, and then
you may go back to bargainingand then you may go to
depression and you may go right.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yep, and you know, if you walk through this with you
know yourself or your family orpeople that like we get to do
that with you.
Do see that that there areseasons where they're really
doing well, they've really movedwith this, they're really
seemingly going forward, andthen they hit something.
(15:45):
You don't even know.
Sometimes if they hit anythingyou can identify but they're
back into maybe the bargainingpart Right and they're really
stuck there for a while.
And with couples, especiallywhen the death is out of order,
when it's a child, we both knowit's a high probability of they
aren't going to make it, butthey can if they'll go through
(16:08):
it themselves and with theirmate, and that bargaining place
is the place where I find a lotof difficulties with that.
I'm blaming myself as a failure,and I know you are too, and the
other one might be going no,it's not even on my mind.
But I, you know, and it's thatattempt, for I want to make
sense.
(16:28):
I might blame God, I mightblame me, I might blame my mate.
Right, and I know it's calledthe bargaining, but I call it
the blaming.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I think that's right and I think it's critical for us
to make sure that we allunderstand your timeline is
yours, that's right.
And I think that's thedifficulty in a marriage,
because my timeline is mine andyour partner's timeline is
theirs, and our timelines maynot match up and it's like how
(16:59):
do we find that rhythm again?
as partners, as couples, asspouses or whatever you want to
call it.
How do I find that pattern,that rhythm?
Again, Because it isasynchronous, like it's not we,
we don't know how to synchronizeit.
That's right, and I thinkyou're, I think you're right,
it's a it, it, it it.
(17:22):
One of the I don't, I don'twant to say crazy things, but it
feels crazy.
Is that that angst?
It's like if, if you're not inmy part of the timeline it's
that pain of having to sit whereI am in my timeline and not
push you or move you to to whereI feel like you need to be.
Oh my gosh, yeah, to where Ifeel like you need to be.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Oh my gosh, yeah, you do.
Yeah, and it's almost helpfulthat we're not in the same place
, because when you're there andI'm not, I can be there for you
to help you move through thatbetter.
But if we're both there then,man, that can be really
difficult.
I remember the first time I satthrough grief was with a
teenager and, yeah, lost hisparent and I didn't want to be
(18:09):
there and somebody said, well,you're the minister, it's your
job, so you got to go.
And I remember I went in thatday and I sat and I can see that
little room it was the diningroom Sitting around a little
table and I was there for fourhours.
(18:29):
I said, hello, I ate the pieceof chocolate cake.
I said, well, I think I'm goingto go.
And I got up and I left Fourhours later, four hours later.
And I watched everybody come inand say things.
And a lot of things we say arejust, you know, some are helpful
but, like you said, you knowthat precious lady gave you a
(18:49):
great visual.
But a lot of people come in andsay stuff You're like that
doesn't help and I've had peopletell me that.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And I think that's right.
I mean, I remember standing inthe receiving line with my
siblings after my father passed.
So now we are without bothparents and you know it was so
sorry for your loss.
Well, you know they're in abetter place and I'm like, yeah,
I kind of don't care.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I'd really rather have them right here with me,
absolutely.
And it's like, well, you know,all things work for good.
And you're like, well, you know, all things work for good.
And you're like, yeah, screwyou.
And I'll never forget one of mydad's really close friends he,
you know, sorry for your lossand I'm the youngest, and so I
was the last that he greeted andhe looked at me because I was
(19:39):
so young.
He looked at me and he saidthis isn't fair.
And I was like and he said thisis.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
BS.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And he said not bad stuff.
But he said the whole thing,not Bible study, no.
And he said I'm just so angryfor you.
Yeah, and his wife was likeslapping him going stop it.
This is not okay, and I lookedat her and I said no, this is
the first honest conversationI've had today Like thank you,
(20:08):
right, because it sucks and it'snot fair.
Yeah, and I don't want to be 30something and dealing with the
fact that I've lost my parents.
That's right, and I think weget so afraid fact that I've
lost my parents.
That's right and I think we getso afraid to call a spade a
spade when these parents losetheir kids.
Yeah, it's not fair, it's notright.
No, it sucks and there'snothing we can do to take it
(20:31):
away that's right, except forjust sit there.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
that's that's it.
That's my story with thatteenager.
I thought I was like man.
I stunk as a minister, but Iknew I didn't know what to say
so I wasn't going to saysomething that wouldn't be
helpful.
He came back to youth group twomonths later and gave his
testimony and said I wouldn'thave made it through that day if
(20:54):
it wasn't for Mark, and I waslike I didn't do anything, but I
did.
He could feel that I wasfeeling what he for Mark and I
was like I didn't do anything,but I did.
He could feel that I was feelingwhat he felt.
Yeah, he knew I cared.
He knew that I didn't know whatto say.
And that didn't matter, becausehe didn't know what to say,
right, he was just suffering andI was just sitting there with
him.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
There's no sense you can make out of it.
No, there just isn't.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I remember sitting with a couple again, they'd lost
a child, yeah, a child, and ithad been longer than six months,
yeah, and I remember thehusband looking at the wife
saying, look, I'm ready for usto move on Like, I'm ready for
(21:39):
us to make a good life now foreach other.
And his sentiment was kind and,but his message, his message,
was good.
His method was so strong,though, and she needed some
extra time and needed to sortthrough some of these things.
And when he finally realized howshe was seeing it, like his
(21:59):
impact, because his intent, likeI was saying, his intent was
good, but his but his impact wasbrutal.
She would finally describe itas it's like a two by four in my
face and he was like Whoa, no,I don't mean that at all.
And as we worked through it, hewas like I just don't want to
lose you too.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
And I was like I just don't want to lose you too, and
I was like that's a goodmessage, that is Now, that's a
good intent.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, now let's make your impact match that intent.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And then he would just say what he wanted for her.
I want for you to be able tohold this grief in a way that it
doesn't take you away from therest of us.
Yes, and I think that's agenuine desire, right, but it's
that's a hard one to do, becausethe question really was how do
(22:50):
I honor my kid's passing whilestill living fully?
That was what he wanted and shewas like I don't know how to
live without having that role,and it really was trying to
redefine that for her.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
How hard would that be?
That isn't going to happenquickly or easily, no, and you
don't have to figure it all out.
You just go through it withthem.
The irony is, I mean, thehusband had a good intent, but
to push would be to lose.
That would make him lose her.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
She has to go through this.
He was.
That's why they showed up onthe couch Right.
You know, one of the thingsthat we worked with them on is,
you know, like you said,honoring that memory Like you
were talking about with thepeople you sit with.
It's like remind me again, tellme about them, like I want to
(23:52):
walk out of here, having knownthat child, you know, and giving
space to those things.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And that is just so much of it.
Yes, I see where he is or sheis now and that helps me move
forward with this in a differentway and I can see that
reflection back again to what Isaw in him or her as a child and
I carry that with me as I goforward and I don't forget that.
(24:28):
You know, it's like thatblanket thing you said I think
I'm aware of it.
I'm never.
You know, nobody is ever goingto be completely resolved and
I'm not ever going to be thesame.
I'm changed by this.
I'm not redefined by it.
(24:48):
I'm still me, but I am changed.
I am impacted in a way that Iam different.
From now on, I can go on withthat, but don't expect me to be
the same.
I've got to find a new way.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, there has to be an acknowledgement to that.
Yeah, yeah, you know people say, oh, I wish it could be what it
was and it's like, yeah, it'snever going to be.
No, and I've seen parentscontinue to live a meaningful
(25:31):
life and not dishonor.
So let me say that in thepositive I've seen parents go on
and live a meaningful life andhonor that child that they lost.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I had one dad who lost his daughter.
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Sometimes what we do is hard.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
You know, I just was thinking that I think lots of
things are hard that we do, butI think this one is the hardest.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, there's a different cry, yeah, there's a
different guttural place thatyou sit with, yeah, and it's
like you go back to that andit's like that is so familiar.
And I just remember he came inand said I'm a lost cause, I
can't keep living and walkingthrough that and saying let's
(26:24):
just stay right where you areand let's sort through that and
we'll make meaning of it, butit's never going to go away.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
And he learned to, to live with, to move with that
grief, and he found things thatthey shared, that they loved and
connected over.
Yeah, and he did those things,that's right.
And he was like that's my wayof connecting with her, that's
right.
And he even began to find joyin those things and greater
(26:58):
meaning in those things and itwas a really beautiful.
It was really beautiful andhonor.
What an honor it was to walkwith him in that, to find those
meaningful places, yeah, yeah,to meet, to meet her, so to
speak.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I've.
I've even seen parents developministries out of the loss you
know, and that's, that's good,but it's, it's gotta be.
I mean, I've I've seen where oneperson wanted it to be a
ministry and the other one wasdoing what you said.
It's like I'm not ready, I'mnot, I'm not there, I can't, I
can't let go, I can't moveforward that fast and I can't
(27:38):
make it something else.
That's not where I'm findingmeaning yet, and I think, even
when you're making meaning outof it into some kind of new
experience which is important tomove forward, it's more of an
inclusion than a replacement,right, than a replacement Right.
I'm going forward in this newway, with this experience, and I
(28:03):
want you to know about thisperson, right, and we're going
to do this together and I'msharing it with you and I
enjoyed it with them and I wantto enjoy it with you and I'm
having kind of both of thoseexperiences as we do it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, I think you know my kids weren't well.
There were only two of them onthe ground.
They were very little, and oneof them that never met my
parents, and one of the thingsthat I've tried to do is say, oh
man, your grandparents wouldlove to have known this about
you, or I wish you could haveknown them in this way, and it's
(28:43):
interesting.
At times I'll hear them say, oh, this would have been really
cool for Papa, or this wouldhave been really cool for
grandma, or this would have been.
You know what I mean, and sothat that's always meaningful to
me is like they live on youknow, and it's like that growth,
that, as we call it in ourfield, post-traumatic growth,
(29:10):
right Cause you know you havepost-traumatic stress or PTSD,
post-traumatic stress disorder,and there's also PTG like
post-traumatic growth.
We should put that in there,traumatic growth, we should put
that in there.
But that can coexist, likeagain, it's not moving on
without them, no, it's movingwith.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, I once worked with just somebody who'd lost
his spouse and they werewell-connected, had a lot of
friends, and the friends cameover that next week because that
was their regular time to meet.
Oh wow, I know.
I was like, were you ready forthat?
(29:47):
And he goes, I didn't know.
So when they came over theyweren't telling me what I had
heard from other people, likeI'm so sorry for your loss.
They were telling me, you know,I remember this about her and
this doing this reminds me ofhow she would have wanted this
and that was her favorite dishand I know she would be laughing
(30:08):
right over there in that chairand that was.
That was a lot for him.
And yet he said that was sohealing for him because I I
recognize she was going on notjust with me.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
So healing for him because I I recognized she was
going on not just with me, butwith them, right, and we were in
this together right, and it'sknowing that that impact right,
like knowing that that legacydoesn't just, like it's not all
the weight's not all on you tocarry it on.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
No, can't be.
It's too much, yeah, that'syeah, yeah, why we need each
other, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Man, I think what's so funny is I've known you for I
don't know more than 20 years,yeah, and I can probably think
of a time.
I'm trying to think of thetimes you and I have sat around
and cried about something.
Yeah, I think we could countthem on, maybe one or two, and
(31:03):
it's like thinking about this.
It's like, you know, grief ispainful, yeah, like it is like
creating space for people towalk through these things.
Yeah, um, but it's also, Idon't know.
It doesn't, doesn't.
It doesn't have to all be thenegatives.
(31:26):
Like you said about this, thisguy who, who is his group, came
over and they sat around andthey laughed and they remembered
her, and that's honoring aswell.
That's right, you know, um, andlike you said, it's it's okay
to say I'm not ready for thatyet.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, I know, I, one of my sisters, lost her first
husband just out of the blue.
Yeah, and I just thought whatcan I do?
You know, to, to, to play apart in the healing of this.
You know, and I remember I waslike I said to myself okay,
(32:02):
you're going to call her everymorning and you're going to say,
all right, how'd you sleep?
What's on your day to day?
And, and you know, just talk tome about you and where you are.
And it was a ritual for a longtime, man, you know, and and
that's been many, you know, manyyears ago, Gosh, like maybe 15
(32:25):
years ago.
That's awesome, but you know,that was our way, my way of
trying to contribute.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I never really asked her if that was a good thing for
her.
I'm sure it was I'm joking.
If that was a good, thing forher.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I'm sure it was.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I'm joking.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
So you know, like everybody, you know that moving
forward and having support is socrucial.
I'll hear a joke and I can'tbelieve how many times, you know
, my dad and I had the samesense of humor.
Yeah, you did.
That was a way to connect.
(33:00):
I'll read a joke and I'll go oh, dad would like and then.
I'll think no, you're laughingright now.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I'm going to tell you yeah, I do the same thing.
That's funny.
It's like I wish I could callmy parents and tell them well,
just tell them, that's right,they don't have to pick up the
phone.
That's right, they don't haveto pick up the phone, that's
right, yeah, they're watching.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
They can hear yeah.
And then I call my brother andtell him and he's like yeah,
that would have made dad laugh.
Sometimes he doesn't laugh.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah, yeah.
I think I think too, one of thethings that I hope anybody
listening who you know iscomforting somebody that you
know it's just.
It's okay to say, like I don'tknow what to say, yeah, I'm just
here, you know, and I want youto know I'm with you.
(33:53):
I don't know what that lookslike, I don't know what you need
, but I'm here, that's it.
That's it.
And I always appreciated thatand I know that you need.
But I'm here, that's it, that'sit, and I always appreciated
that and I know that, you know,we.
I think we believe we have tohave the right thing to say, oh
my gosh, yeah, no, but I willtell you this I remember when my
brother-in-law passed um, Iknow, you know people were cause
(34:18):
it was, it was very close towhen my parents had passed, and
so it just kind of felt likegosh, you know, one loss after
the next, and it's like peoplewould meet me with their grief
and I was like, yeah, I, I, Ican't attend to you too, right,
but there was a differencebetween meeting me in my grief
(34:39):
and your grief too, where we cangrieve together as opposed to
you're crying, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And like okay, we're in the grocery store and I don't
know that.
You know you're anyway layingyour grief on me.
Yeah, yeah, and I know that's ahard ask.
Yeah, yeah, and I know that's ahard ask.
Yeah, yeah, because when youlose somebody and they may not
have been as close to you asthey were to the person, that is
(35:08):
a hard kind of situation tonavigate.
Yeah, but I do think it's beingsensitive to.
Am I trying to hand you mygrief?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, you know, know, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
oh yeah, you know, it's like the, the harmful
phrases, the everything happensfor a reason oh my gosh you,
they're better off, or you knowthat kind of stuff is and it's.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's okay to be irrational, yeah, it's okay to
lose your bearings.
I mean, this is an adjustment.
I remember a kid that I wentthrough this with him.
He had lost his brother and hetold me at the wake all of his
relatives, all of the people hehadn't seen, were there.
And he said I was really havingfun and I was running around
(36:00):
looking for my brother to tellhim how fun it was and I
realized that he's not here.
That's the point he said Icouldn't believe that he wasn't
there to share in that joy thatI usually have Him to share it
with him.
You know it's irrational, heknew it.
He doesn't need to be correctedor guided or directed, he just
(36:20):
needs to be held.
You know we get through itbetter with just being held than
being directed.
Right, that messes up theprocess.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Right, yeah, and that held is a figurative.
Held, yeah, and sometimes it'snot.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But I, I, I do think it's, if it's, if you're
grieving alongside with someone,it really is about following
their lead, absolutely.
You know, because I know therehave been times where people
that I'm walking with, thatthey've been, you know, full of
grief and they don't want totalk about their loved one.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, they're like, I don't want to talk about it,
it's like okay, all that's right.
What do you want to talk about?
And what's what's always sointeresting is five minutes in
there.
Okay, I want to talk about itnow.
Right, but not always.
Yeah, you know, it's like I wassaying, you know, like people
meeting me with their grief, andit's like, wait, I'm not there
right now.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
And you're handing me a big burden of your grief.
That's right.
So it really is like trying toread their cues, yeah, even
asking the question, you know,like, finally, the, the person
that was draped over me cryingtheir eyes out about the laws,
you know, had they stepped backand said you're not in that
place right now, are you?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I would have said no, not really.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
You know what I'm saying Like so it's.
I don't want to, I don't wantto come across as, like we're
saying, read the tea leaves, butthen be authentic.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And it's like no, be authentic If you're there and
they're not asked the question.
If they're not, then excuseyourself.
That's right, absolutely.
Because, look, no matter what,whether it's your grief or
whether it's the grief thatyou're watching somebody else go
through, it changes you, asevidenced by us sitting right
here.
That's right.
You know, tearing up overpeople we've walked with very
(38:11):
closely, yeah, throughout theyears, yeah, and I think this is
why it's hard for couples.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
What we were saying earlier yeah, I may not be in
the place to be able to hold you, to be with you emotionally,
with that right now, orphysically.
And it's not that you're alwaysnot going to be in that place,
but sometimes, and just to saythat and be honest about that,
and that's okay and that's hard,but it's worse if you ignore
(38:44):
that and try to forge on aheadand make it work.
You can't, and accepting thatyou're just not where I'm at or
I'm not where you're at, yeah,so interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I read this quote that rituals give structure to
chaos and meaning to loss andyou know thinking about things
that like community loss, youknow like a big, tragic,
(39:28):
devastating loss, like what wasexperienced, what we've
experienced as a community herein uh, in texas, you know, down
at the hill country with thatmassive flooding, oh my gosh.
And that you know.
I see people reminiscing abouttheir time at those camps, or
I've talked with peoplereminiscing about their times at
the ranch.
You know that and I don't know.
(39:49):
I think again that it it's likethat quote that structures the
chaos and helps bring meaning tothe loss.
Um, you know, I've seen somelittle girls writing songs.
You know about their, theirthat experience, and I just
think what a powerful outlet youknow giving meaning to that.
(40:14):
Yeah, and I think too, you knowgrief.
Grief shows up in our bodies,oh yeah, before we get it into
our heads, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, exhausted, exhausted, yeah, heaviness, uh,
I don't want to move.
Uh, tension, yeah, headaches,yeah, or conversely, you know, I
just want to get going, I justwant to get busy, I just want to
move, I want to do something,you know?
Yeah, okay, it's just noticingthat.
What, where is that coming from?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Right, yeah, I often talk to people about the idea
that when, when you, when youfind your shoulders up in your
ears, can you, can you bringthem down and can you let, can
you see if you can do somerelaxation.
You know, like, if they're upby your ears, tighten them
higher and then see if you candrop them.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, if you find that you're holding your breath,
let's see if you can take adeep breath and hold it and hold
it and then let it out and thenhold it, yeah, and then another
deep breath in and hold it.
We call that four we.
We do that in four secondintervals four seconds in,
holding it for four seconds,four seconds out, holding it for
(41:28):
four seconds, and repeat.
We call that four squarebreathing.
And it's really interestingbecause it's the holding of the
breath in between that reallyserves to reset our nervous
system.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
And it is relaxing, it is grounding Right and you
may become aware of stress inyour body that you were unaware
of and you're aware of.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
I'm here.
I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I still count, I still matter.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yeah, because there's a lot of survivor's guilt.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Oh my gosh, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Why wasn't it me or I didn't lose my kids?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Especially when you're walking with people.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
You know, I wish it could have been me instead.
I just think you're right.
It's like it's finding meaningin those moments.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And it will be different for everybody
different times, like we weresaying earlier.
I love what you said aboutbeing like a weather.
It's not a linear thing, it'slike the weather Different
intensities, different times.
If you think you're through itand then it repeats, something
hits you and you just let ithappen when it happens, you
(42:41):
don't force it and you don'tavoid it, you just go with it.
And to do that with people andto know that, like I love the
blanket thing too.
I'm sorry, going back to yourillustrations, but it is how it
goes and we can go through it.
We go through it better withpeople who don't try to guide us
, they just are with us, right?
(43:03):
And then we do the memorialthing.
Just think about all the waysthat, the rituals that we have,
the places that we go that weknow they liked doing, the
things that we know they like todo, and including others in
that, eventually, is the movingforward in a different way.
(43:25):
I don't have to avoid thoseplaces, right?
I don't have to camp out there.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
I'm just going there and and experiencing that.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Right, yeah, yeah, my dad had.
He was a musician and he had alove for music and he was a
conductor and at parts of his,his life and career, he was a
conductor and I just remember Icouldn't go to, I didn't want to
go to anything where there wasan orchestra for a period of
(43:56):
time.
I bet.
And then I remember being in aservice in a place where there
was going to be an orchestra.
There was going to be anorchestra and I remember the way
that the conductor raised hisarms to start to to get the
orchestra's attention.
It literally stopped Like I.
(44:16):
It took my breath away becauseit was far enough away and the
guy was a similar age to my dadand it was.
He was an older gentleman andit was like man, it just caught
me.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And it was like what is this?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
And it was just a.
I mean, it was a torrentialdownpour of grief all of a
sudden, right, because there itwas, yeah, and you know I, I let
myself tear up over it and Ienjoyed what I saw, and I didn't
try to make meaning out of it,no, I just let it wash over me.
(44:53):
There you go, cause I think alltoo often you know it's like
going out into in the beach,it's like you can fight the
water, you can fight the waves,but they are going to win and
you know or you can work withthe waves and know you're going
to get wet if you're in thewater.
(45:13):
So I think it's, I think it'sreally about just acknowledging
what it is and and rolling withit and knowing that, if you're a
person caring for someone ingrief, fatigue is a very real
thing.
Burnout, overwhelm is a veryreal thing and just because you
(45:38):
go on with your day to enjoyyour, you know if you have a
friend who lost a child and youenjoy your children, you're not
dishonoring your friend.
No, no, you're honoring yourlife and you're honoring your
friend as well.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Because, boy, they'd give anything that's right To
enjoy that kid in that moment,yeah, yeah.
So I think it's important toknow that it's you know.
If you are in the midst ofgrieving, allow yourself to be
where you are.
In the midst of grieving, allowyourself to be where you are.
And if you are walkingalongside someone, same advice
allow yourself to be where youare.
(46:13):
Don't take on their grief,that's right.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
That's right, that's good.
Just be with them, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Man, I think we've walked through a pretty heavy
subject here, yep, and I'm gladI walked through it with you,
you too, man, and hopefully youknow.
I guess what I hope that peoplewill take from this is grief is
hard, yeah, and there's nolinear way through it, nope, and
(46:45):
just being with showing up asyou, yeah, and just allowing
them to showing up as you, yeah,and just allowing them to show
up as them and do the best withyou can, with the in-between, oh
, that's good.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That's it, thanks, mark Foster.
Thank you.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and today I'mjoined by Mark Foster, a
therapist, here at Restoration.
In this episode, we're havingan honest conversation about
grief, the reality behind movingon, the myths that keep us
stuck and the transformativetruth that grief isn't something
(00:24):
to overcome but something tolearn to carry with grace and
wisdom.
Whether you're walking throughyour own grief, supporting
someone you love through loss,or helping your community heal
from collective trauma, thisepisode offers practical
strategies for navigating griefas a pathway to deeper
(00:45):
connection, meaning, ultimately,restored freedom.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Well, welcome, mark Foster.
About the concept of grief andabout just the heaviness of it,
(01:10):
but also the acceptance of itand the way through it, and I
know you've been a therapist forthree decades, or more and
you've worked with a lot offamilies and a lot of people
who've walked through somereally hard times, so I'm glad
you're here with us today.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh, thank you lot of people who've walked through
some really hard times, so I'mglad you're here with us today.
Oh, thank you.
I'm glad to be here too and nota fun thing to talk about, but
necessary yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
it's interesting, though, to think about like
grief and how we expect likethat.
Like the, the dsm-5, thediagnostic statisticalth edition
, says grief is supposed toresolve in six months.
Right, I don't know what yourtake is on that, but, man, mine,
I don't know that griefresolves in six months, right?
(01:56):
I mean, I remember, I mean youknow this, but I lost my parents
, both of them probably 18,almost 19 years ago now, five
weeks to the day apart, and Iremember my mom died first, and
she's such a sweet lady came in,she was the hospice social
(02:18):
worker.
And she came in and she said Idon't know what to say to you
guys.
I'm sorry that you lost yourmom.
And she said a few things andthought yeah, yeah, yeah, grief,
grief, grief, right.
And then my dad died, literallyagain five weeks to the day,
yeah.
And she walked in and she saidI don't know what to say to you.
(02:38):
She said this is a lot and it'soverwhelming, yeah, and it was
kind of like charlie brownteacher, like wah, wah, wah, wah
.
But then she said something.
She said I want to leave youguys a lot and it's overwhelming
.
Yeah, and it was kind of likeCharlie Brown teacher, like wah,
wah, wah, wah.
But then she said something.
She said I want to leave youguys with this.
She said grief is like ablanket.
She said it is going to for aperiod of time it is going to
live over you.
(03:00):
And she said at some pointyou're going to be able to stand
up and you're going to fold theblanket, but you're not ever
going to be able to throw theblanket out.
Wow, she said you'll put theblanket on the shelf and at
times you're going to need totake the blanket down and
sometimes you're going to need,to your life, a tent under the
blanket.
And it was one of the mostpowerful things and I remember
(03:37):
just stopping saying I'll neverforget that.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yeah, thank you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And when I think about our field, saying grief is
supposed to resolve within sixmonths, I often wonder if they
mean you're not going to live inthe tent of the blanket.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
For six months.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
But I'll tell you, you know, like I said almost 19
years in this past Christmas,for whatever reason, I needed
that blanket sometimes.
Yeah, you know, yeah, so Idon't know what's your take.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I agree, I think it's a great illustration or picture
.
Yeah, maybe the DSM is sayingyou'll fold it in six months.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
If you're fortunate, but I don't think that can ever
be hard and fast.
Yeah, because people go throughthis at their own pace, in their
own way and it is always goingto be there.
I lost my dad over a year agoand I'm still having times where
it hits me and I need toexperience that.
(04:42):
I know it's kind of maybejumping ahead of the way it goes
, but just to say something Irealized just this week about it
that the realization of my dadnow like where I believe he is
(05:02):
and the perfected state he's in,helps me look back on who he
was in my past and I can seethose good things with dignity
and I can look at them withoutany incrimination and go.
That was a bit of the picturethat I know you're just
completed in now and it helps mehonor those things and not
(05:24):
ignore them because of thethings he did that weren't a
part of the picture that he isnow but it just let me honor
that.
And sometimes I've thoughtpeople, when they are grieving
and they lose somebody, thatthey deify that person.
Yes, they make them a saint.
I'm like, no, I remember theyweren't really.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, I mean right, like I remember.
There's plenty of stories I cansay, boy, that's a dad issue or
that was a mom thing.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, and but what it's helped me do is to say yeah
, that was true and so was this,and I can see that now with
more joy and honoring andfullness, without any kind of
lingering.
Yeah, but you know, it's just ayeah, it was and it is and it
(06:13):
will be just something.
So it kind of goes back andforth from the picture I know
where he is now to the picturewhere he was then and where that
is in me right now and itreally helps me right now?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, and it really helps me move forward with hope.
So it's not.
So it's not overlooking, no,who he is and who he was.
No, it's accepting that andsaying, yeah, at times you had
grief.
I mean, we both had grief intheir lifetime that they
inflicted but it's it's.
(06:47):
It's honoring the completionthat you know he's operating in.
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I think I think it'simportant to to know that grief
evolves.
You know, and I think that'swhat the blanket analogy was, a
grief will evolve.
It does not come to an endabsolutely.
And I know, um, I know one ofthe things that, man, both of us
(07:11):
have sat with parents who havelost their children.
Yeah, when grief gets out oforder, yeah when loss maybe it's
not grief gets out of order,but loss is out of order, like
that's not the design, right?
The design is that as a parent,you outlive your kid, but in
the brutal, unfortunate timethat that isn't the case, it
(07:33):
feels it is out of order.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And I know that one of the things that I've sat with
parents who have had thatunfortunate miss or misordered
event that one of the thingsthat they stick with is is I
don't want to move on.
I don't want to move on becauseI feel like I'm going to leave
(07:57):
them behind.
Have you, have you had thatsame experience?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Oh, absolutely, I know it, but I don't want to go
there.
I don't want to, and it's notmoving on without them, it's
moving on with those things likewe were talking about, just now
with the honoring of them Ialways kind of talk about that
(08:23):
with them is tell me about them,tell me about what they were
like, what the good times, whatmade you laugh and I've had part
of grief is remembering thatand crying and laughing right at
the same time yeah, you know Ilove that.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I I always tell parents you're not moving on
because you can't.
No, but you're moving withthat's right because they're not
defined by that one.
No ill-fated day no, that theywere taken from your presence
right, but instead it's you'removing with where they currently
(09:00):
are.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Mm-hmm, yeah, and that changes us.
Yeah, I mean there's a hugechange in their absence and the
impact of that on us, mm-hmm,and we move forward with that
and I do think, as Christianswho know where they are, it is a
huge blessing to know that I ammoving with you where you are,
(09:24):
huge blessing to know that I ammoving with you where you are.
Almost everybody, christian ornot, that I have talked to will
tell me.
I think I felt their presenceyesterday, or it's almost as if
maybe I did hear them saysomething to me and I used to in
my younger days, poo-poo that Imean, that's a technical term,
(09:46):
poo-poo, of course it is Thankyou, but I don't now, man, I
think maybe, having gone throughwith families and friends, and
then my own, it's no, I reallydo believe that there is a sense
of and a reality of thatpresence with us.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It's not made up.
I can't tell you how manyparents I have heard tell a very
similar story of.
I mean, I remember one fatherwho lost his children, his
(10:30):
children, and he said, you know,I was working on something in
my office, I was in a conferenceroom, and he said, all of a
sudden I felt one of my kidsbasically come to me and audibly
say, dad, I'm good and I needto know you are too.
And it was a moment for him,wow, and I think the I didn't
(11:07):
expect to be impacted like this,Because he he cried through the
whole thing and I cried withhim through the whole thing
because it's so out of order andfor him to have that gift, that
(11:32):
experience, yeah, absolutely,it was so profound and it was
such a moment of normalizing forhim, like you said, that there
may be those moments, yeah, andnot to technically poo-poo them,
but to really embrace them andenjoy them, that they're a gift
(11:55):
that's right that's right, youknow that's right, but it's, I
think you're right and I thinkit's.
That was a moment for him wherehe could move with.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Because there was that space of you know, I know
you're okay, and people may sayyou know, rash like people who
consider themselves like logicalthinkers may say, oh well, that
just was a moment that yourmind created.
And here's my statement to thatis okay so what If it brought
(12:32):
you peace and it's notdestroying anybody else or
taking anything from anybodyelse, why does it matter?
And so what a beautifulexperience for people to have.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I got to share one.
Now, come on.
I was cleaning out my parents'house after dad died and I was
going through his clothes mydad's very meticulous to be
generous, it's very meticulousto be generous and I literally
came down to the last pair ofpants and I thought, man, I just
(13:10):
wish that there was.
Oh man, I'm going to cry.
I wish there was something here.
That was just.
I could remember him by.
And I literally heard look inthe pocket.
I looked in that pocket andthere was his silver dollar that
(13:32):
he carried with him every day.
I wish I could pull it out nowand show you that I have it, but
I don't.
I don't wear it, I don't put itin the pocket so it might fall
out, because I don't want tolose that sucker.
It's, it's in my nightstand,you know.
But I just thought how did Ihear that?
How did I know that pocket,that pair of pants?
That was either God or my dad,I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, either way it's comfort.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Either way, it's the allowing to move on it's like
losing a body part yeah you knowit's like you.
You can learn to functionwithout a leg, but you, you will
always remember, you willalways have that with you.
(14:18):
That's right, you know.
I know that, as we grieve itlike, it's certainly not a
linear pattern, I know there'syou know, we have the five
stages of grief right the denial, the anger, the bargaining, the
depression, the acceptance.
Which is what's interestingabout those five is those were
(14:40):
observations of dying patients.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Not the um, the survivors who are grieving, but
I, I think they, I do think thata lot of that does apply.
Yeah, and it's there, it's.
It's not like a timeline thatyou're gonna, you know metic
know meticulously go througheach of them no.
(15:04):
But it's like a, it's like aweather pattern.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
You know it may be raining at lunch, like you may
be in denial at lunch andacceptance at dinner, and then
you may go back to bargainingand then you may go to
depression and you may go right.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yep, and you know, if you walk through this with you
know yourself or your family orpeople that like we get to do
that with you.
Do see that that there areseasons where they're really
doing well, they've really movedwith this, they're really
seemingly going forward, andthen they hit something.
(15:45):
You don't even know.
Sometimes if they hit anythingyou can identify but they're
back into maybe the bargainingpart Right and they're really
stuck there for a while.
And with couples, especiallywhen the death is out of order,
when it's a child, we both knowit's a high probability of they
aren't going to make it, butthey can if they'll go through
(16:08):
it themselves and with theirmate, and that bargaining place
is the place where I find a lotof difficulties with that.
I'm blaming myself as a failure,and I know you are too, and the
other one might be going no,it's not even on my mind.
But I, you know, and it's thatattempt, for I want to make
sense.
(16:28):
I might blame God, I mightblame me, I might blame my mate.
Right, and I know it's calledthe bargaining, but I call it
the blaming.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
I think that's right and I think it's critical for us
to make sure that we allunderstand your timeline is
yours, that's right.
And I think that's thedifficulty in a marriage,
because my timeline is mine andyour partner's timeline is
theirs, and our timelines maynot match up and it's like how
(16:59):
do we find that rhythm again?
as partners, as couples, asspouses or whatever you want to
call it.
How do I find that pattern,that rhythm?
Again, Because it isasynchronous, like it's not we,
we don't know how to synchronizeit.
That's right, and I thinkyou're, I think you're right,
it's a it, it, it it.
(17:22):
One of the I don't, I don'twant to say crazy things, but it
feels crazy.
Is that that angst?
It's like if, if you're not inmy part of the timeline it's
that pain of having to sit whereI am in my timeline and not
push you or move you to to whereI feel like you need to be.
Oh my gosh, yeah, to where Ifeel like you need to be.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Oh my gosh, yeah, you do.
Yeah, and it's almost helpfulthat we're not in the same place
, because when you're there andI'm not, I can be there for you
to help you move through thatbetter.
But if we're both there then,man, that can be really
difficult.
I remember the first time I satthrough grief was with a
teenager and, yeah, lost hisparent and I didn't want to be
(18:09):
there and somebody said, well,you're the minister, it's your
job, so you got to go.
And I remember I went in thatday and I sat and I can see that
little room it was the diningroom Sitting around a little
table and I was there for fourhours.
(18:29):
I said, hello, I ate the pieceof chocolate cake.
I said, well, I think I'm goingto go.
And I got up and I left Fourhours later, four hours later.
And I watched everybody come inand say things.
And a lot of things we say arejust, you know, some are helpful
but, like you said, you knowthat precious lady gave you a
(18:49):
great visual.
But a lot of people come in andsay stuff You're like that
doesn't help and I've had peopletell me that.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
And I think that's right.
I mean, I remember standing inthe receiving line with my
siblings after my father passed.
So now we are without bothparents and you know it was so
sorry for your loss.
Well, you know they're in abetter place and I'm like, yeah,
I kind of don't care.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I'd really rather have them right here with me,
absolutely.
And it's like, well, you know,all things work for good.
And you're like, well, you know, all things work for good.
And you're like, yeah, screwyou.
And I'll never forget one of mydad's really close friends he,
you know, sorry for your lossand I'm the youngest, and so I
was the last that he greeted andhe looked at me because I was
(19:39):
so young.
He looked at me and he saidthis isn't fair.
And I was like and he said thisis.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
BS.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
And he said not bad stuff.
But he said the whole thing,not Bible study, no.
And he said I'm just so angryfor you.
Yeah, and his wife was likeslapping him going stop it.
This is not okay, and I lookedat her and I said no, this is
the first honest conversationI've had today Like thank you,
(20:08):
right, because it sucks and it'snot fair.
Yeah, and I don't want to be 30something and dealing with the
fact that I've lost my parents.
That's right, and I think weget so afraid fact that I've
lost my parents.
That's right and I think we getso afraid to call a spade a
spade when these parents losetheir kids.
Yeah, it's not fair, it's notright.
No, it sucks and there'snothing we can do to take it
(20:31):
away that's right, except forjust sit there.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
that's that's it.
That's my story with thatteenager.
I thought I was like man.
I stunk as a minister, but Iknew I didn't know what to say
so I wasn't going to saysomething that wouldn't be
helpful.
He came back to youth group twomonths later and gave his
testimony and said I wouldn'thave made it through that day if
(20:54):
it wasn't for Mark, and I waslike I didn't do anything, but I
did.
He could feel that I wasfeeling what he for Mark and I
was like I didn't do anything,but I did.
He could feel that I was feelingwhat he felt.
Yeah, he knew I cared.
He knew that I didn't know whatto say.
And that didn't matter, becausehe didn't know what to say,
right, he was just suffering andI was just sitting there with
him.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
There's no sense you can make out of it.
No, there just isn't.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
I remember sitting with a couple again, they'd lost
a child, yeah, a child, and ithad been longer than six months,
yeah, and I remember thehusband looking at the wife
saying, look, I'm ready for usto move on Like, I'm ready for
(21:39):
us to make a good life now foreach other.
And his sentiment was kind and,but his message, his message,
was good.
His method was so strong,though, and she needed some
extra time and needed to sortthrough some of these things.
And when he finally realized howshe was seeing it, like his
(21:59):
impact, because his intent, likeI was saying, his intent was
good, but his but his impact wasbrutal.
She would finally describe itas it's like a two by four in my
face and he was like Whoa, no,I don't mean that at all.
And as we worked through it, hewas like I just don't want to
lose you too.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
And I was like I just don't want to lose you too, and
I was like that's a goodmessage, that is Now, that's a
good intent.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, now let's make your impact match that intent.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And then he would just say what he wanted for her.
I want for you to be able tohold this grief in a way that it
doesn't take you away from therest of us.
Yes, and I think that's agenuine desire, right, but it's
that's a hard one to do, becausethe question really was how do
(22:50):
I honor my kid's passing whilestill living fully?
That was what he wanted and shewas like I don't know how to
live without having that role,and it really was trying to
redefine that for her.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
How hard would that be?
That isn't going to happenquickly or easily, no, and you
don't have to figure it all out.
You just go through it withthem.
The irony is, I mean, thehusband had a good intent, but
to push would be to lose.
That would make him lose her.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
She has to go through this.
He was.
That's why they showed up onthe couch Right.
You know, one of the thingsthat we worked with them on is,
you know, like you said,honoring that memory Like you
were talking about with thepeople you sit with.
It's like remind me again, tellme about them, like I want to
(23:52):
walk out of here, having knownthat child, you know, and giving
space to those things.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
And that is just so much of it.
Yes, I see where he is or sheis now and that helps me move
forward with this in a differentway and I can see that
reflection back again to what Isaw in him or her as a child and
I carry that with me as I goforward and I don't forget that.
(24:28):
You know, it's like thatblanket thing you said I think
I'm aware of it.
I'm never.
You know, nobody is ever goingto be completely resolved and
I'm not ever going to be thesame.
I'm changed by this.
I'm not redefined by it.
(24:48):
I'm still me, but I am changed.
I am impacted in a way that Iam different.
From now on, I can go on withthat, but don't expect me to be
the same.
I've got to find a new way.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, there has to be an acknowledgement to that.
Yeah, yeah, you know people say, oh, I wish it could be what it
was and it's like, yeah, it'snever going to be.
No, and I've seen parentscontinue to live a meaningful
(25:31):
life and not dishonor.
So let me say that in thepositive I've seen parents go on
and live a meaningful life andhonor that child that they lost.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I had one dad who lost his daughter.
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Sometimes what we do is hard.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
You know, I just was thinking that I think lots of
things are hard that we do, butI think this one is the hardest.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, there's a different cry, yeah, there's a
different guttural place thatyou sit with, yeah, and it's
like you go back to that andit's like that is so familiar.
And I just remember he came inand said I'm a lost cause, I
can't keep living and walkingthrough that and saying let's
(26:24):
just stay right where you areand let's sort through that and
we'll make meaning of it, butit's never going to go away.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
And he learned to, to live with, to move with that
grief, and he found things thatthey shared, that they loved and
connected over.
Yeah, and he did those things,that's right.
And he was like that's my wayof connecting with her, that's
right.
And he even began to find joyin those things and greater
(26:58):
meaning in those things and itwas a really beautiful.
It was really beautiful andhonor.
What an honor it was to walkwith him in that, to find those
meaningful places, yeah, yeah,to meet, to meet her, so to
speak.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I've.
I've even seen parents developministries out of the loss you
know, and that's, that's good,but it's, it's gotta be.
I mean, I've I've seen where oneperson wanted it to be a
ministry and the other one wasdoing what you said.
It's like I'm not ready, I'mnot, I'm not there, I can't, I
can't let go, I can't moveforward that fast and I can't
(27:38):
make it something else.
That's not where I'm findingmeaning yet, and I think, even
when you're making meaning outof it into some kind of new
experience which is important tomove forward, it's more of an
inclusion than a replacement,right, than a replacement Right.
I'm going forward in this newway, with this experience, and I
(28:03):
want you to know about thisperson, right, and we're going
to do this together and I'msharing it with you and I
enjoyed it with them and I wantto enjoy it with you and I'm
having kind of both of thoseexperiences as we do it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, I think you know my kids weren't well.
There were only two of them onthe ground.
They were very little, and oneof them that never met my
parents, and one of the thingsthat I've tried to do is say, oh
man, your grandparents wouldlove to have known this about
you, or I wish you could haveknown them in this way, and it's
(28:43):
interesting.
At times I'll hear them say, oh, this would have been really
cool for Papa, or this wouldhave been really cool for
grandma, or this would have been.
You know what I mean, and sothat that's always meaningful to
me is like they live on youknow, and it's like that growth,
that, as we call it in ourfield, post-traumatic growth,
(29:10):
right Cause you know you havepost-traumatic stress or PTSD,
post-traumatic stress disorder,and there's also PTG like
post-traumatic growth.
We should put that in there,traumatic growth, we should put
that in there.
But that can coexist, likeagain, it's not moving on
without them, no, it's movingwith.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, I once worked with just somebody who'd lost
his spouse and they werewell-connected, had a lot of
friends, and the friends cameover that next week because that
was their regular time to meet.
Oh wow, I know.
I was like, were you ready forthat?
(29:47):
And he goes, I didn't know.
So when they came over theyweren't telling me what I had
heard from other people, likeI'm so sorry for your loss.
They were telling me, you know,I remember this about her and
this doing this reminds me ofhow she would have wanted this
and that was her favorite dishand I know she would be laughing
(30:08):
right over there in that chairand that was.
That was a lot for him.
And yet he said that was sohealing for him because I I
recognize she was going on notjust with me.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
So healing for him because I I recognized she was
going on not just with me, butwith them, right, and we were in
this together right, and it'sknowing that that impact right,
like knowing that that legacydoesn't just, like it's not all
the weight's not all on you tocarry it on.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
No, can't be.
It's too much, yeah, that'syeah, yeah, why we need each
other, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Man, I think what's so funny is I've known you for I
don't know more than 20 years,yeah, and I can probably think
of a time.
I'm trying to think of thetimes you and I have sat around
and cried about something.
Yeah, I think we could countthem on, maybe one or two, and
(31:03):
it's like thinking about this.
It's like, you know, grief ispainful, yeah, like it is like
creating space for people towalk through these things.
Yeah, um, but it's also, Idon't know.
It doesn't, doesn't.
It doesn't have to all be thenegatives.
(31:26):
Like you said about this, thisguy who, who is his group, came
over and they sat around andthey laughed and they remembered
her, and that's honoring aswell.
That's right, you know, um, andlike you said, it's it's okay
to say I'm not ready for thatyet.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, I know, I, one of my sisters, lost her first
husband just out of the blue.
Yeah, and I just thought whatcan I do?
You know, to, to, to play apart in the healing of this.
You know, and I remember I waslike I said to myself okay,
(32:02):
you're going to call her everymorning and you're going to say,
all right, how'd you sleep?
What's on your day to day?
And, and you know, just talk tome about you and where you are.
And it was a ritual for a longtime, man, you know, and and
that's been many, you know, manyyears ago, Gosh, like maybe 15
(32:25):
years ago.
That's awesome, but you know,that was our way, my way of
trying to contribute.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I never really asked her if that was a good thing for
her.
I'm sure it was I'm joking.
If that was a good, thing forher.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I'm sure it was.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I'm joking.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
So you know, like everybody, you know that moving
forward and having support is socrucial.
I'll hear a joke and I can'tbelieve how many times, you know
, my dad and I had the samesense of humor.
Yeah, you did.
That was a way to connect.
(33:00):
I'll read a joke and I'll go oh, dad would like and then.
I'll think no, you're laughingright now.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I'm going to tell you yeah, I do the same thing.
That's funny.
It's like I wish I could callmy parents and tell them well,
just tell them, that's right,they don't have to pick up the
phone.
That's right, they don't haveto pick up the phone, that's
right, yeah, they're watching.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
They can hear yeah.
And then I call my brother andtell him and he's like yeah,
that would have made dad laugh.
Sometimes he doesn't laugh.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah, yeah.
I think I think too, one of thethings that I hope anybody
listening who you know iscomforting somebody that you
know it's just.
It's okay to say, like I don'tknow what to say, yeah, I'm just
here, you know, and I want youto know I'm with you.
(33:53):
I don't know what that lookslike, I don't know what you need
, but I'm here, that's it.
That's it.
And I always appreciated thatand I know that you need.
But I'm here, that's it, that'sit, and I always appreciated
that and I know that, you know,we.
I think we believe we have tohave the right thing to say, oh
my gosh, yeah, no, but I willtell you this I remember when my
brother-in-law passed um, Iknow, you know people were cause
(34:18):
it was, it was very close towhen my parents had passed, and
so it just kind of felt likegosh, you know, one loss after
the next, and it's like peoplewould meet me with their grief
and I was like, yeah, I, I, Ican't attend to you too, right,
but there was a differencebetween meeting me in my grief
(34:39):
and your grief too, where we cangrieve together as opposed to
you're crying, I'm not.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
And like okay, we're in the grocery store and I don't
know that.
You know you're anyway layingyour grief on me.
Yeah, yeah, and I know that's ahard ask.
Yeah, yeah, and I know that's ahard ask.
Yeah, yeah, because when youlose somebody and they may not
have been as close to you asthey were to the person, that is
(35:08):
a hard kind of situation tonavigate.
Yeah, but I do think it's beingsensitive to.
Am I trying to hand you mygrief?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, you know, know, does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (35:20):
oh yeah, you know, it's like the, the harmful
phrases, the everything happensfor a reason oh my gosh you,
they're better off, or you knowthat kind of stuff is and it's.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's okay to be irrational, yeah, it's okay to
lose your bearings.
I mean, this is an adjustment.
I remember a kid that I wentthrough this with him.
He had lost his brother and hetold me at the wake all of his
relatives, all of the people hehadn't seen, were there.
And he said I was really havingfun and I was running around
(36:00):
looking for my brother to tellhim how fun it was and I
realized that he's not here.
That's the point he said Icouldn't believe that he wasn't
there to share in that joy thatI usually have Him to share it
with him.
You know it's irrational, heknew it.
He doesn't need to be correctedor guided or directed, he just
(36:20):
needs to be held.
You know we get through itbetter with just being held than
being directed.
Right, that messes up theprocess.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Right, yeah, and that held is a figurative.
Held, yeah, and sometimes it'snot.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But I, I, I do think it's, if it's, if you're
grieving alongside with someone,it really is about following
their lead, absolutely.
You know, because I know therehave been times where people
that I'm walking with, thatthey've been, you know, full of
grief and they don't want totalk about their loved one.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, they're like, I don't want to talk about it,
it's like okay, all that's right.
What do you want to talk about?
And what's what's always sointeresting is five minutes in
there.
Okay, I want to talk about itnow.
Right, but not always.
Yeah, you know, it's like I wassaying, you know, like people
meeting me with their grief, andit's like, wait, I'm not there
right now.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
And you're handing me a big burden of your grief.
That's right.
So it really is like trying toread their cues, yeah, even
asking the question, you know,like, finally, the, the person
that was draped over me cryingtheir eyes out about the laws,
you know, had they stepped backand said you're not in that
place right now, are you?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I would have said no, not really.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
You know what I'm saying Like so it's.
I don't want to, I don't wantto come across as, like we're
saying, read the tea leaves, butthen be authentic.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And it's like no, be authentic If you're there and
they're not asked the question.
If they're not, then excuseyourself.
That's right, absolutely.
Because, look, no matter what,whether it's your grief or
whether it's the grief thatyou're watching somebody else go
through, it changes you, asevidenced by us sitting right
here.
That's right.
You know, tearing up overpeople we've walked with very
(38:11):
closely, yeah, throughout theyears, yeah, and I think this is
why it's hard for couples.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
What we were saying earlier yeah, I may not be in
the place to be able to hold you, to be with you emotionally,
with that right now, orphysically.
And it's not that you're alwaysnot going to be in that place,
but sometimes, and just to saythat and be honest about that,
and that's okay and that's hard,but it's worse if you ignore
(38:44):
that and try to forge on aheadand make it work.
You can't, and accepting thatyou're just not where I'm at or
I'm not where you're at, yeah,so interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
I read this quote that rituals give structure to
chaos and meaning to loss andyou know thinking about things
that like community loss, youknow like a big, tragic,
(39:28):
devastating loss, like what wasexperienced, what we've
experienced as a community herein uh, in texas, you know, down
at the hill country with thatmassive flooding, oh my gosh.
And that you know.
I see people reminiscing abouttheir time at those camps, or
I've talked with peoplereminiscing about their times at
the ranch.
You know that and I don't know.
(39:49):
I think again that it it's likethat quote that structures the
chaos and helps bring meaning tothe loss.
Um, you know, I've seen somelittle girls writing songs.
You know about their, theirthat experience, and I just
think what a powerful outlet youknow giving meaning to that.
(40:14):
Yeah, and I think too, you knowgrief.
Grief shows up in our bodies,oh yeah, before we get it into
our heads, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, exhausted, exhausted, yeah, heaviness, uh,
I don't want to move.
Uh, tension, yeah, headaches,yeah, or conversely, you know, I
just want to get going, I justwant to get busy, I just want to
move, I want to do something,you know?
Yeah, okay, it's just noticingthat.
What, where is that coming from?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Right, yeah, I often talk to people about the idea
that when, when you, when youfind your shoulders up in your
ears, can you, can you bringthem down and can you let, can
you see if you can do somerelaxation.
You know, like, if they're upby your ears, tighten them
higher and then see if you candrop them.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yeah, if you find that you're holding your breath,
let's see if you can take adeep breath and hold it and hold
it and then let it out and thenhold it, yeah, and then another
deep breath in and hold it.
We call that four we.
We do that in four secondintervals four seconds in,
holding it for four seconds,four seconds out, holding it for
(41:28):
four seconds, and repeat.
We call that four squarebreathing.
And it's really interestingbecause it's the holding of the
breath in between that reallyserves to reset our nervous
system.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
And it is relaxing, it is grounding Right and you
may become aware of stress inyour body that you were unaware
of and you're aware of.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
I'm here.
I'm still here.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
I still count, I still matter.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Yeah, because there's a lot of survivor's guilt.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Oh my gosh, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Why wasn't it me or I didn't lose my kids?
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Especially when you're walking with people.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
You know, I wish it could have been me instead.
I just think you're right.
It's like it's finding meaningin those moments.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And it will be different for everybody
different times, like we weresaying earlier.
I love what you said aboutbeing like a weather.
It's not a linear thing, it'slike the weather Different
intensities, different times.
If you think you're through itand then it repeats, something
hits you and you just let ithappen when it happens, you
(42:41):
don't force it and you don'tavoid it, you just go with it.
And to do that with people andto know that, like I love the
blanket thing too.
I'm sorry, going back to yourillustrations, but it is how it
goes and we can go through it.
We go through it better withpeople who don't try to guide us
, they just are with us, right?
(43:03):
And then we do the memorialthing.
Just think about all the waysthat, the rituals that we have,
the places that we go that weknow they liked doing, the
things that we know they like todo, and including others in
that, eventually, is the movingforward in a different way.
(43:25):
I don't have to avoid thoseplaces, right?
I don't have to camp out there.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
I'm just going there and and experiencing that.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Right, yeah, yeah, my dad had.
He was a musician and he had alove for music and he was a
conductor and at parts of his,his life and career, he was a
conductor and I just remember Icouldn't go to, I didn't want to
go to anything where there wasan orchestra for a period of
(43:56):
time.
I bet.
And then I remember being in aservice in a place where there
was going to be an orchestra.
There was going to be anorchestra and I remember the way
that the conductor raised hisarms to start to to get the
orchestra's attention.
It literally stopped Like I.
(44:16):
It took my breath away becauseit was far enough away and the
guy was a similar age to my dadand it was.
He was an older gentleman andit was like man, it just caught
me.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
And it was like what is this?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
And it was just a.
I mean, it was a torrentialdownpour of grief all of a
sudden, right, because there itwas, yeah, and you know I, I let
myself tear up over it and Ienjoyed what I saw, and I didn't
try to make meaning out of it,no, I just let it wash over me.
(44:53):
There you go, cause I think alltoo often you know it's like
going out into in the beach,it's like you can fight the
water, you can fight the waves,but they are going to win and
you know or you can work withthe waves and know you're going
to get wet if you're in thewater.
(45:13):
So I think it's, I think it'sreally about just acknowledging
what it is and and rolling withit and knowing that, if you're a
person caring for someone ingrief, fatigue is a very real
thing.
Burnout, overwhelm is a veryreal thing and just because you
(45:38):
go on with your day to enjoyyour, you know if you have a
friend who lost a child and youenjoy your children, you're not
dishonoring your friend.
No, no, you're honoring yourlife and you're honoring your
friend as well.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Because, boy, they'd give anything that's right To
enjoy that kid in that moment,yeah, yeah.
So I think it's important toknow that it's you know.
If you are in the midst ofgrieving, allow yourself to be
where you are.
In the midst of grieving, allowyourself to be where you are.
And if you are walkingalongside someone, same advice
allow yourself to be where youare.
(46:13):
Don't take on their grief,that's right.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
That's right, that's good.
Just be with them, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Man, I think we've walked through a pretty heavy
subject here, yep, and I'm gladI walked through it with you,
you too, man, and hopefully youknow.
I guess what I hope that peoplewill take from this is grief is
hard, yeah, and there's nolinear way through it, nope, and
(46:45):
just being with showing up asyou, yeah, and just allowing
them to showing up as you, yeah,and just allowing them to show
up as them and do the best withyou can, with the in-between, oh
, that's good.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
That's it, thanks, mark Foster.
Thank you.
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