March 11, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with Kara Burr, a Licensed Professional Counselor and Registered Play Therapist, to explore the benefits of play therapy in parenting. They discuss how play can help children process emotions, build resilience, and strengthen family connections.
Whether you're a parent or just interested in child development, this episode offers valuable insights into using play as a tool for emotional growth and healing.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and in thisepisode I'm joined by Cara Burr,
a licensed professionalcounselor and play therapist at
Restoration Counseling.
Today we're diving into theworld of parenting and the
powerful role that play therapycan have in a child's emotional
and developmental growth canhave in a child's emotional and
(00:27):
developmental growth.
Kara shares her expertise onhow play therapy helps children
process emotions, develop copingskills and strengthen family
connections.
Whether you're a parent, acaregiver or just curious about
child development, this episodeoffers valuable insights into
how play can be a gateway tohealing and communication
insights into how play can be agateway to healing and
(00:47):
communication.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Welcome, cara Burr.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'm so glad that you arehere today talking about our
play therapy stuff and workingwith what I affectionately call
the babies.
The babies.
Yeah, so thanks for being onyou.
You have, like, could you giveus kind of a an overview of,
(01:08):
like, what play therapy is, andmaybe some of the listeners
don't even know.
Like, in play therapy, like doyou just go in and play?
Like, is there a point to thisthing?
Like, really, is playing withtoys a meaningful thing?
I'm sure you've never heardthat.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, uh, I can understand, you know why someone
would ask that, and it seemslike you know that's what my
kids just do around our house.
And so, why?
Why would I invest in a playtherapy?
I think it's a really importantquestion.
So I would say that, you know,play therapy allows children to
(01:47):
communicate through the metaphorof the toys, and I would say
you know that the toys in theplayroom are really strategic
toys that help tell stories.
So there are a lot of there'snot really a lot of flashing
lights, although, by mistakeThank you Amazon there's been a
few toys that do make noise likea fire truck.
(02:10):
You know things like that.
So every now and then, there Ido have a fancy toy, if that's
what you want to call a fancytoy.
Uh, however, they are simpleanimal families, art materials.
Uh, you know some uh dollhouses, um, you know some uh
dollhouses, puppets, toys thatallow, you know they, they mimic
(02:30):
something in a child's lifethat if they've gone through
something hard, they canreplicate it and play um in
their natural language.
And that's the beautiful partabout play is that play is
really communicating um, what isgoing on internally within a
child, but also relationally.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So when you say a metaphor, you mean like the like
, if, if they gravitate to likelet's say, their house burned,
and they gravitate to playingwith the house and the fire
truck.
You know that there's anexpression through their
language of play that that thatthey're trying to.
Basically they're working thatout in what they're doing in the
(03:06):
office.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely.
So they're.
They're holding that storyinside their brain and you know,
we would say in the right sideof their brain, when there's a
lot of emotion and side of theirbrain that develops first and
then, as they play, they'remaking sense of their
experiences yeah, yeah, nice.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So there is a purpose to play therapy.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I will say something that is unique about play
therapy that I have found in my14 and a half years of being a
play therapist is, instead ofthe toys just being a metaphor,
that can happen, and I alwayswant to leave room for that.
What I, what I really seehappening more often in the
playroom is how, how the childinteracts with me.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Ah, so it's much more .
The toys being a metaphor, Icould see getting lost in that,
and then everything being um,see getting lost in that, and
then everything being not judgedbut evaluated, and what you're
saying here is that it's reallynot.
Yes, that is a clue or a cue,no more a clue, that.
(04:17):
But what's more important ishow that interpersonal
interaction, what that tells youlike that, that interaction is
more important.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, yes, so I was most often in play therapy.
We start very non-direct, whichjust means that we are in a
process of building trust andrapport with one another, and so
when a child comes into theplayroom, they get to choose
what they want to play, um, andso there's always room for them
(04:51):
to work out maybe something hardthat they've gone through, or
to communicate, uh, you know, arelationship, maybe a hard
relationship with a siblingthrough the dollhouse or or
things to that manner.
Um, what I often find is that Ihave a kiddo who you know, kind
of on a continuum, will, youknow, just automatically say I'm
(05:13):
the teacher, you come sit overhere and I'm going to tell you
exactly how today is going to go.
Or.
I will have a kiddo that is veryquiet and kind of withdrawn and
I'm like, okay, well, I'malready thinking interpersonally
how can I help this childbecome healthier?
(05:33):
In how they interact with meand I think how they interact
with me is an example of howthey interact with those in
their world outside of theplayroom.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Right, the unknown person, the potential person in
authority.
When you're thinking about thisand you're conceptualizing how
they're approaching you, is thatthe framework that you're
laying for how you're going toapproach the kid, this child, in
each subsequent session Like?
Does that build the frameworkof the play therapy?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yes, yes, it definitely does.
I would say that my first threesessions where I'm building
trust and rapport, I'm reallytrying to put on my learning cap
.
I'm like, who do I have infront of me and what are they?
Yes, what are they playing withand are they telling a story,
and how are they interactingwith me?
And then I try to gauge andthink, okay, well, out of the
(06:33):
three sessions, they have takena more dominant role and they
have asked me to play thiscertain way or to say this
certain thing, just just so.
And so I'm thinking well, here,okay, I have a kiddo that needs
to learn to increase theirflexibility and to learn to
yield and also learn to considerwho's in the room with them.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
That's fascinating Because of the conceptualization
.
What you're saying is you'retaking play therapy into a place
of an interpersonal realm and,to your knowledge, is there play
therapy that is taught inschool, like in graduate schools
?
Is there a play therapy thatdoes this, or would you say that
this is something that's unique?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I would say it's more unique are a few modalities
that, um, you know, would bringparents into the playroom and
have different activities forthem, or teach parents a
non-direct form of play therapy,and those there's value there,
um, but as far as you know,considering um the relationship
(07:38):
with the therapist as a smallexample of what relationships
look like generally for thischild, no, that's, that's a
pretty new pretty new.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
You know, we here at restoration have a really neat
opportunity to know and bementored by big Jim, or Jim
McCullough, who wrote the, theCBASP therapy, the therapy model
um cognitive behavioralanalysis, systems of
psychotherapy, where one of hisbig tenants of CBASP is
utilizing the therapist as the atool in the, the therapeutic
(08:13):
process.
And to see that matriculatethrough the with the babies or
the children, I think is one ofthe most special, um exciting
things that's going on in ourfield right now.
One of the things that I wouldimagine that I might say if I
were in your shoes is that do werecognize that we're building a
(08:39):
relationship with our childrenas parents, with our children as
parents?
I mean, you're using the magic Iand I I would call it magic of
a relationship with these kidsthat you're treating and you're
teaching them how to cope with,deal with, struggle through
struggle, well, through some oftheir, their significant
(09:01):
concerns, and you're utilizingyou as a tool and a mechanism.
Are there things in thatrelationship that you think, hey
, mom and dad or caregiver,these are really powerful things
to know, like if you come instrong and domineering, that
you're going to push out of yourkid almost reflexively a
(09:25):
submissive stance from them,meaning they'll back away and
you won't see who they are.
Or if you're hostile in thehostile sense of being like stay
away from me, or creatingsomething where they back up
from you, your chances areyou're going to get that back,
like any tips that you thinkparents might need to know.
(09:46):
You know just thinking throughtheir own behavior and
interacting with their kids.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Something that I will tell parents often is that you
are a large, you're the largestreinforcer in your child's life.
I love that reinforcer in yourchild's life and so, um, you
know, my job as a play therapistis to enter in for a little
while to understand your childand how they're relating to me
as a reflection of how they'rerelating to you, um, and very
(10:14):
often I will find that what aparent experiences, I experience
a more polite version, and so Iwill enter in and um relate to
a, to a child, in such a waywhere, well, first I'm being
mindful of who are they in theroom with me and, like I
mentioned a little bit earlierthat there'll be about three
sessions where I'm just tryingto figure out, hey, what is
(10:36):
happening from session tosession and what is the theme
that's occurring relationallyLike.
Are they very dominant?
Are they very withdrawn from me?
Are they very pleasing with me?
You know what?
Are they very dominant?
Are they very withdrawn from me?
Are they very pleasing with me?
You know what are therelational themes.
And then I consider how can Ienter in to teach them an area
where they're weak, right, howcan I grow them interpersonally?
(10:57):
And so I would encourageparents that they have that same
opportunity, but all day, everyday, you know all of these
opportunities to make an impacton their child.
When a parent enters in to asituation that may be difficult
to parent, but they enter inwith, you know a lot of nurture,
(11:19):
high relationship, also withconsistency and with boundaries
and limits, and when those gohand in hand the relationship
component and the structurethere's a lot of goodness that
will come from that and thekiddos will learn with time.
Well, I can really trust myparent.
This is who they are day in andday out and they really delight
(11:43):
in me, and so when a kid knowsthat a parent delights in them
and also can provide consistentlimits, there's a lot of really
safe learning that happens.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Do you think it sounds like to me that you're
advocating for attachment like asecure attachment, and what do
I mean by attachment?
A place where a kid feels safeto be known, to be seen, that
they know that their needs willbe cared for.
Do you want to add anything tothat definition?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Oh sure, that's a great summary, knowing that a
parent or a caregiver willconsistently be there for me.
You know, with some of ourphysical needs it kind of starts
there as an infant, also, justwith my relational needs.
Sometimes parents I'll evenhave a parent every now and then
(12:42):
who worries about theirattachment with their child and
I'll just ask him, like, do youdelight in your child?
You know, and, and and.
The honest answer is there.
The honesty behind that is thatsometimes we have hard
struggles with our kids.
But overall, can you, can youthink about?
You know, when you picture andthink about your child like, do
(13:03):
you delight in who they are?
Right, and it's like the verycore of secure attachment is
just this relationally,relationally enjoying our
children.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
You know, it's so fascinating to me about
attachment in this is that youknow, we know as a therapist
with adults, that the person,that the client, the patient, is
attaching to us when they holdus in their mind when we're not
there, Meaning hey, I wasthinking about, I was talking
(13:37):
very negatively to myself andyour voice came into my mind
saying hey, don't talk to myfriend that way.
Or hey, don't talk to my friendthat way.
Or hey, you know, don't talk tomy.
You know, don't talk tosomebody that I care about that
way.
And you know that that's whenthere's an attachment that's
been made, is that they carryyour voice around in in their
(13:57):
mind.
What you're laying out here isthat you're teaching parents
that bringing in that, that thatwarmth, that connection, is
really, really important tolaying those tracks, if you will
, those grooving their brain.
(14:19):
For the grooving the child'sbrain, for that attachment to
them as the parent, so that theyfeel safe and secure, that then
they can act out their life oract out is probably not a great
way to say that but they canlive out their life and even as
a child, go run experiments thatmay have risk, right, but they
know that there's a lovingparent there to run back to, to
(14:41):
help figure it all out.
Back to to help figure it allout, and that if you are
experiencing something, that ifa kid needs to come in for play
therapy, I'm not saying thatit's on the parent as to why
that kid is there, but that theparent can learn to be a tool.
Because I think a lot of timesI know that a lot of parents
(15:01):
will say you know, my kid needshelp, my kid needs therapy.
What have I done wrong?
Where have I gone wrong?
And I guess the big messagethat I'm asking you, that I
really am hopeful that parentshear, is if your kid needs
something that's extra, it's notbecause you've somehow failed.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, that's so true.
I mean, I think you know everyparent is doing the best that
they can with the tools thatthey have and you know play
therapy allows for there to besomeone who also gets to know
your child and, like I mentionedearlier that the impact that
their child is having on theplay therapist is very similar
(15:44):
to how the child impacts theparent.
And so it's.
It's a moment of hey, the childgets to learn with the play
therapist um, you know, uh, ahealthy way of interacting, and
then also the play therapistgets to know the child, so that
the play therapist cancommunicate to the parents like
hey, here are some ideas, here'ssomething I tried in the
(16:07):
playroom, here's what that couldlook like at home.
Um, and there's, I think themost effective play therapy
considers the whole familysystem, right, Well, you say
that again.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
cause that's so powerful?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The most effective play therapy is considering the
family system.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah.
So I would let me say it thisway and we'll see if that kind
of makes sense is that if therewas a play therapist who would
meet with a child and they youknow, it is just between the two
of them and the child is ableto play and choose their
(16:51):
activities in the playroom.
There is learning, there isvalue in that.
That is important.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I think one of the things that I hear you saying,
kara, is that a parent impactstheir child, and if a play
therapist is impactful andthey're only working with that
child, they're impactful.
To the degree with which theywork with the child the playroom
(17:31):
more specifically and implementthat throughout the week,
throughout the the, the dayswhen the child isn't in the
playroom, that it certainly ismore impactful, not only on the
child, on the parent, but Iwould say even more importantly
and I think you might agree withme here, even more importantly,
the parent and the child in theway that they relate.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
It allows the parent to haveinsight of how can I interact
with my child in such a way thatmakes an impact on them just
ample amounts of time.
And so there's learning thatcan happen in the playroom, but
(18:11):
there's so much more learningthat can happen inside their
household, where they are day inand day out interacting with
their parents and with theirsiblings, or, you know, with
peers at school.
Yeah.
So it's really about equippingthe parents to know, hey, here's
some ways I can really care formy child.
And and then it's also my jobto help the parents really get
(18:31):
specific in different areas oflike hey, if they're really
struggling on the way to school,let's think through some ways
that you parent can enter inwith you know, um, I'll often
say with friendly, dominantbehavior, but really I
synonymously, uh would say witha lot of nurture and a lot of
structure.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Right To, to, To decode that friendly, dominant
behavior.
It's the behavior that isguiding and teaching with a
kindness like what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, I think sometimes, when parents are
dominant, they think, oh great,then I can just lambast this kid
with all of my emotions, right,and it's like boy.
That couldn't be further fromthe truth.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, definitely I think.
Another, you know, in theparenting realm you'll often
hear authoritative parenting andI you know friendly, dominant
is a another way to say that,that similar concept of there's
high relationship and there'shigh structure here.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
There's both at the same time.
You're not accustomed to.
It's like there's this, it is aum, it's like we don't know
what to do sometimes.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Oh, definitely.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And so it's like we feel really out, we feel really
out of control.
And there was a book writtenabout strong-willed children
We'll leave the author's nameout of it, but the the message
was you get control.
Parent, or your strong willedchild will get control.
And where I wish that therewould have been a little more
(20:18):
encouragement or a little moreperhaps instruction, is get
control of what, because I thinkall too often people read that
and go well, I need to getcontrol of that kid.
But that doesn't seem veryrelational, it's definitely not
interpersonal and so it's wait,I need to get control of me as
the parent and if I'm in controlof me as the parent, that kid
(20:41):
may be out of control for themoment.
But the idea is, if I'm incontrol, I can be warm and I can
be high you know highrelationship and I can be highly
structured and the structurewill not come out of anger
because I'm in control of me.
You think that's a fairassessment.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I do, I think you know.
Uh, that might be just be thehardest part of parenting is to
uh, especially when, uh, youknow, our kiddos are going
through a hard moment ofdysregulation to be that calm,
regulated presence, and sosometimes we have to take a
moment so that we can enter in.
It's not just this superheropower, you know, it's a lot of
(21:21):
practice, it's a lot ofextending grace to ourselves as
parents to be able to, you know,pause and not just be impulsive
and not just react.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Boy.
That's the truth.
I will tell you that timeoutswere not.
I don't believe that timeoutswere designed for a uh, an inch,
a uh, a disciplinary tactic, asmuch as they were designed to
teach emotional regulation.
In other words, you don't wantthe consequence to be a timeout
(21:55):
If the kid destroyed theplayroom.
The timeout is to help themregulate their emotions so that
they can go, help you put theplayroom back together.
But I always I, when I wasraising my kids, when they were
really little I used to say hey,daddy needs a timeout here
because mad daddy doesn't wantto show up and I want to be, I
(22:16):
want to be calm daddy, but maddaddy's on his way, so I need to
go and quell him, so that andit's like I it was, you know,
taking timeouts, and my hope wasthat I was teaching them that
it's okay to experience thesehigh emotions.
You just have to deal with themin a way that's not
deconstructive but isconstructive, or destructive but
(22:38):
it's constructive.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I'll often encourage parents to have their child have
a place to think it over, right, if something happened that
wasn't the best choice ofbehavior, I mean let your
imaginations just go there for aminute is that, hey, we need
our kids to think it over, andwe'll just tell them that, hey,
(23:04):
you're right here.
And then I'm going to just be afew steps away and when you're
ready to talk about it, just sayready, and we'll come.
And we'll come and we'lladdress it, and then we'll go
and we'll maybe, as an example,clean up the playroom together
that was completely destroyed,and then they will practice the
desired behavior right.
So it's a moment to calmoneself, a moment to have some
(23:25):
reflection, and then it's amoment of actually practicing
the behavior that you are asking.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
How would you, how would you coach a parent who the
kid is ready, but the parent'sstill angry?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well, I would say, if a kid is ready but the parent
is still angry, then you cancommunicate to the child I'm so
glad you're ready, and I amgoing to take a few more, few
more moments and then and thenwe'll go and we'll talk about it
.
So I say that because we don'twant to rush the process,
because your, your kiddo can,can pick up on your emotion
(23:59):
dysregulation and if you reallyare wanting your kid to be in a
place where their brain is calmenough to learn, then we have to
be mindful of what we'rebringing to that situation.
So it's good for us to take thetime that we need so that we
can be that model of emotionregulation, because how we come
(24:22):
into the situation will overflowonto our children.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
That's true, boy.
Our emotions do tend to set.
They set a tone, don't they?
Oh, absolutely.
Those little kids are likelittle brawners.
That's true, boy.
Our emotions do tend to set.
They set a tone, don't they?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Those little kids are like little brawners.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Absolutely.
I am just that last week I wasin the grocery store and I was
feeling stressed because of thetime limit before having to go
pick up my oldest and my middlechild was like Mom, I love you,
mom, I love you and I was likewhat is happening right?
Now.
And I was like I love you too,and and you know what, Are you
(24:56):
picking up on the fact thatmom's a little stressed right
now?
Yes, I was like you know what,sweetie, I love you so much and
you, you do not have to beresponsible for my emotions
right now.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
That's a cool message at her age.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I hope she was able to understand that.
But I was literally in thefrozen section of Whole Foods
just being like, just hold on, Igot it.
Hold on, I got it.
What's happening here?
And I know that it was such areminder for me in that moment
that, like hey, she can reallyfeel how I'm feeling and it's
having an impact on her and sheknows when I'm in my you know,
(25:33):
like we said a moment ago myfriendly dominant place, that's
a sweet spot of like hey,there's a lot of, there's a lot
of fun, there's a lot ofinteracting, there's a lot of,
you know, reading a booktogether at night or there's
just moments to snuggle togetherand just this relation, these
relationally rich moments.
And I want to be mindful of,hey, what are my emotions and,
um, how that impacts my kids.
(25:53):
And so those are things thatyou know it's, it's, that's my
life as a parent.
But those things are true forin the playroom also.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
That example, I think , was really helpful.
Thank you for that, because youknow, because you know, being
aware, being curious about ifshe's telling you she loves you.
And she's telling you she lovesyou and you're like yeah, great
, thank you, I love you too.
I love you too.
Oh my gosh, yep, love you too.
(26:23):
And it's like, if we remainunaware of our impact, we may
respond out of like oh my gosh,I love you too, do you not
believe me?
And we could respond withfrustration, thinking that, like
, this is not annoying that ourkid is telling us that, but the
repetition can becomefrustrating to a parent.
(26:45):
Sure.
And I think, like you said, yourfirst three sessions are all
about being curious andunderstanding the kid that's in
the, in the, in the playroom.
It's like, hey, parents, let'sall be curious about our kids,
let's all be.
And, again, we're not going tobe perfect at this, so please
don't put that as another brickin your backpack, parents,
because we all know thatparenting little ones is like
(27:06):
like we know there's a boulderback there.
Little ones is like like weknow there's a boulder back
there.
And it's like sometimes the waywe can lighten our load is to
recognize wait, this isrepetitive.
Hey, what's going on,sweetheart?
Uh, are you picking up on that?
I'm stressed because I thinkthat in that it's you being
self-aware and also carryingcarrying an awareness of her.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah definitely.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
And that goes from and this is my favorite thing to
talk about that goes from anintrapersonal or a
self-awareness that wait asecond, I'm starting to get this
.
I love you, I love you, I loveyou.
The repetition is wait.
Now we're going to move tointerpersonal awareness of that
between us, awareness of saying,wait, sweetheart, are you
(27:53):
picking up on mommy's stress?
Yes, it's like okay.
So it went from intrapersonalto interpersonal and then you
came back to your self-awareness, right, the intrapersonal
awareness, and you offered her adifferent solution of hey, you
don't have to take care of that.
And whether she understood itor not, you're, I believe,
(28:16):
you're building a pathway of.
She says I don't have to beresponsible for that.
I don't know what that means,but I'll sure I'll figure it out
someday, someday.
And it's like the more yourepeat that, the more she
understands what responsibilityis, the more every time you
teach her about responsibility,that's kind of tucked away in
the back of her back of herbrain.
(28:36):
What a beautiful example, whata beautiful message that you
sent her that day.
And what a great example of thatback and forth, that intra
personal self-awareness to theinterpersonal the.
You went from me to we, back tome, and then offered her
something really beautiful.
You let her off the hook.
(28:56):
Yeah, well done.
All while you're stressed outin the middle of whole foods
trying to get some food hashtaggoals people.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, I think that at times, when people hear that
it's play therapy and they'replaying, they get skeptical and
they think, well, wait a minute,you're going to just teach them
how to play.
But I think Let me toss this toyou how would you?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
How would you characterize somebody saying
that?
How would you debunk that myth?
We're just playing, it's likewe're playing, but as we're
playing it's really thisreal-life emotional learning
that's occurring.
Because if it's, you know, I'mthinking through a client who
(30:09):
and this is often I'll oftenhave very dominant kids come
into the playroom that reallylove to run the show and I'm
thinking how can you be mindfulof me in the room?
How can you be mindful of me inthe room?
Because if they were to justlearn to continue to be dominant
and maybe exert their controlwith their peers or with their
parents, I mean, I kind of hateto say it, but it might just be
a really lonely relationalexperience for them as they
continue to grow.
(30:30):
If they never learn to doanything different, then that
could really impact theirrelationships negatively.
So I think like, okay, well,how can I enter in here to this
moment and how can I teach youto think about?
You know, if you want to justdo trick shots with basketball
the whole time, what about me,Like I like basketball I mean
kind of I do, but I likebasketball.
(30:51):
And what if I want to take ashot, Like may I have a turn
Right?
And so there's this consideringwho else is in the room with
them.
So, yes, we're, you know we'replaying basketball, or we're
creating a story with puppetstogether.
What if the puppet didn't knowthat it was going to absorb that
(31:16):
puppet's power?
Until this happened and there'salways I look for opportunities
where I can insert an idea sothat the child can learn to be
flexible.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So it's their learning with me, flexibility,
they're learning to consider me,and those are lifelong lessons
for relationships here on after,yeah, I love that You're saying
that typically the kiddos thatyou see are going to be more of
the fill up the room type child,as opposed to the to the slink
(31:46):
away and not engage typically,because I would imagine that if
you have a fairly compliantchild that you're going to bump
along as a family and feelpretty good about that
compliance.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
That's true, it's sneaky.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Compliance is a very, very sneaky thing.
I remember when one of my kidswho tends to be a little more
compliant, on the compliant sideof the scale, they ran upstairs
and slam their door and Iremember running up the stairs
behind them going, oh, my gosh,high five.
You just slammed your door andthey were like, oh, you ruined
(32:25):
the moment.
I'm like, okay, probably, butyou're right, you don't want
that compliance to always besomething that you celebrate.
Um, and, and I'm gonna give,I'm gonna maybe give a little
bit of background as to why, inthe sense that you don't want
compliance to always to to besomething that we always
(32:46):
celebrate, is because, like,compliance to what it's,
compliance to you now, but ifthey don't learn to think on
their own, you don't want themto listen to the loudest voice
in the room, cause that loudestvoice in the room in certain
rooms may be the most nefariousvoice in the room, would you?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, definitely.
If I have a more compliant or amore submissive kid in the
playroom, I'm thinking, you know, I it's.
It is easier in some waysbecause they are like well, what
do you want to play with?
And I'm like, wow, that'samazing.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I feel so, considered yes.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
But then I'm like, well, hold on here.
Like how can I, yes, appreciatethat you're thinking of me, but
also empower you to use yourvoice?
And so you know, I'll ask himlike hey, why don't you just
look around the playroom, takeit all in and then whatever
looks the most fun to you?
(33:44):
I really want to hear that.
And so, really, the playroomcan be a place where a kiddo
learns to be flexible, learns tobe mindful, learns how to share
power, and also the playroomcan be a place where a kid
learns to kind of break free andexpress themselves and share,
and, you know, not just playwith the fidgets in the sand
(34:05):
very quietly, but then they movefrom that to the whole
explorative.
Like we have the army men outand it's a whole battle, and
I've created and these are reallife stories and I've created
this Island out of the sand andit's an amazing world.
And I'm like, wow, like the,you were once in a shell, but
(34:26):
now, now you've opened up andwhat I'm getting to experience
is really beautiful.
And and I always that'ssomething I haven't said yet is
I want to be mindful, tocommunicate the impact that
they're having on me to them.
Like, hey, you know, what'sreally cool about today is that,
um, you know you really thoughtabout me, that you, you shared,
(34:48):
uh, the basketball with me.
I'll get very specific aboutwhat went well, because I really
want to tell them so that theylearn.
I want to reinforce that.
So if I have a kid who's morecompliant, I'm like I'm so glad
you shared with me what youactually wanted to do or what
was on your mind, or that you,you know something cool today.
If it's a smaller goal might bethat hey, you played with a new
(35:11):
toy today and that was prettycool to see you grab the?
Um, the action figures.
I liked that.
You did that.
So I'm always trying to thinkthrough how can I encourage them
for moving right,interpersonally moving of, to
showing more flexibility or to,um, communicating more openly?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I think the the joy of that, or the excitement of
that, is when you talk aboutobserving their movement.
It's their movement based onwhat?
And it's based on you, right,You're teaching them their
impact in that playroom andyou're the only other living
human being in that playroom.
(35:52):
All the rest of it is inanimateobjects the toys and teaching
them their impact on you, andit's like that's truly a thread
of therapy, from the childrenall the way up.
It's learning your impact onothers.
I think parenting that's areally big part of parenting is
(36:15):
teaching your kids that theyhave impact.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And I love that.
You're very specific and theyknow that.
You know you were pleased, butit wasn't because it was like a
random.
Okay, I pleased you, but I'mnot sure how I love the going
back to your example.
In whole foods, I love you.
I love you Cause I know you'repleased.
When I tell you I love you,it's like, okay, how do I please
(36:39):
you?
And it's like, oh, no, no, no,you don't need to please me here
.
Yeah, you get to be you.
And it's like you're lettingthese kids play, be themselves,
all, all, while directing themand showing them a new
opportunity perhaps, and thengiving them such feedback of
here's what specifically you didthat warranted this feedback.
(37:04):
Yeah.
That's a powerful process.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, I agree, I agree, and it's really beautiful
to see play therapy unfold overthe sessions.
You know, because you know uh,a very withdrawn child, to see
uh, him or her open up to smileat me, to say hi, you know, to
come and be like I need to.
(37:28):
I want to tell you this aboutmy week and I'm like you want to
talk to me Like this is dope.
This is so different from how westarted, like I'm so grateful
that this is the place that weare at now, right, or if I have
you know more, some more of mydominant kiddos, and if it's
been a while since I've seenthem, I'll say I'll say, okay,
(37:49):
how do we, how do we playtogether?
Okay, here's how we playtogether.
We take turns, we don't throwthe ball as hard as we can, we
don't shoot the dart gun at oneanother.
(38:10):
I mean, they'll go through therules, rules and I'll say those
are you know.
They'll say we think about eachother, we take turns.
They'll say some more positivethings too, and then I'll say
and he's like, have fun, that'sright, we're totally going to
have fun today.
That is the goal.
And so with that, with thatparticular one, I always end,
hey, because we played by therules, like you and I, we had a
(38:33):
lot of fun together.
So it's sweet to see them.
They learn, and then theychange.
And then I just kind of get tokeep encouraging them for how
they've changed.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
I know that as a parent, it was really.
It was it and even maybeencouraged for me to teach my
kids that they do have an impacton me, like you did in whole
foods.
It wasn't you're notresponsible for me, but you do
have an impact on me.
It's like if my kids don't takethe trash out, it's like hey,
(39:11):
listen, this is this, is howthis landed on me.
Like I had to do this.
It kind of took some extra timeout of my day.
I'm not telling you that to makeyou feel bad.
I just want you to know thatyou're important in this family
and the things that you domatter and they impact us, and I
think that I want to encourageparents Like it's first of all,
(39:34):
we don't want to shame and it'snot something that we're saying
like therefore, you make me feela certain way when you do X,
it's more of hey, your behaviormatters, your behavior impacts
me, but and I would encourageparents, understand that, even
if you don't communicate that toyour kid, understand the impact
(39:55):
that that kid is having on you,would you?
Would you add or take away fromthat?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
It is important for us as as parents and of course
is with myself as a playtherapist to communicate the
impact that our, our childrenare having on us.
I want to encourage parents tostart by communicating the
positive impact that your kidshave on you.
(40:23):
You know it's easier to drawattention to misbehavior at
times rather than just statingwhat we're enjoying, because
when things are going smoothly,I know for me as a parent, I'll
just kind of fall into okay,everybody's settled, I can go
tackle my to-do list, right, andI want to keep growing as a
(40:46):
parent and noticing the good,right, and noticing the positive
impacts that our children haveon us.
And so when there is anabundance of almost like these
relationship deposits, then wecan also know that we have that
(41:09):
saved up in a sense, so that wecan go in and communicate hey,
you know when, uh, when I had toask you a few times to go take
a shower, like that was, thatwas really frustrating, all
right.
So what can we do differently?
How can we handle thisnighttime situation differently,
so that when I just asked youto go take a shower, it happens
(41:31):
faster next time, right?
So it is important to be honestabout those impacts, but the
more constructive feedback needsto come from a place that has
been first met with connection.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yes, without question , and that to me, I'm glad you
stated it that way and that tome, I'm glad you stated it that
(42:17):
way the whole idea of impact isto teach is about connection,
right learning occurring, but itis not a type of learning that
we're after.
It is a disconnecting.
Okay, you're not safe.
It's not safe to make mistakesand that is the antithesis of
what I hope, as parents, thatwe're trying to teach our kids.
Kara, one question that I havefor you is you know there's some
(42:47):
parents that say so.
If I'm in a rush and you knowI'm late for work or they're
late for school, you want me todo all this connecting, some
parents will say mumbo jumbo andthere's just not time, it's
just not practical.
How would you speak to that?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Well, you know being have demands that we need to
move along.
But I would just say that thosemoments where there's some
stress or some misbehavior andthere's a responsibility to get
to, you know, those will go moresmoothly if we are more
intentional and attentional.
(43:37):
Other times of the day where wedo have some margin, and I'll
just go ahead and say and if weare, if we are too busy, um, and
we're too rushed, uh, with ourschedules and with our demands,
and we are going to really missthose opportunities to slow down
and connect.
So I would encourage parentsthat, you know, if you find
(43:59):
yourself getting into a lot ofpower struggles, well, let's
take a step back, let's considerour time with our child and
let's, you know, create somemargin for connection to help us
get through those hotspotmoments.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
I think that's such a great point because life can
get hectic.
Life doesn't have to remainhectic and, man, if you get into
power struggles, you may wantto look at who's trying to hold
all the power right.
And as parents, we shouldn't beholding all the power.
We need to be sharing power,and the older they get, the more
power we're giving them grantedbecause it's been earned.
(44:36):
But here's the here's thereality.
Whether it's earned or not,they hold their own personal
power, whether we like it or not.
And it's all about negotiating,right?
I know working with teenagers.
It really is all about helpingparents learn to negotiate.
And people say wait a minute,you're teaching me to negotiate
(44:57):
with a terrorist.
And I'm like well, hold on,your kid's not a terrorist,
they're a teenager.
I know they start both startwith T but they're a different,
they're a different breed.
But it's really not aboutnegotiating with demands.
It's about negotiating throughconnection, like what you're
talking about, and that's not aone-time thing.
And I love, I love, I love whatyou're putting out there, Cara
(45:19):
Burr thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
We are so blessed to have you and you getting to work
with the children here at thispractice is not only a blessing
to us as practitioners but tothe families that you get to
work with and the other, uh, theother therapists that you get
to to instruct and and and ummentor, and uh, we're just
(45:45):
grateful for you.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, thank you, lee, thanks for having me, you bet.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of you.
Bet is just beginning and we'reexcited to have you with us
every step of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and in thisepisode I'm joined by Cara Burr,
a licensed professionalcounselor and play therapist at
Restoration Counseling.
Today we're diving into theworld of parenting and the
powerful role that play therapycan have in a child's emotional
and developmental growth canhave in a child's emotional and
(00:27):
developmental growth.
Kara shares her expertise onhow play therapy helps children
process emotions, develop copingskills and strengthen family
connections.
Whether you're a parent, acaregiver or just curious about
child development, this episodeoffers valuable insights into
how play can be a gateway tohealing and communication
insights into how play can be agateway to healing and
(00:47):
communication.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Welcome, cara Burr.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'm so glad that you arehere today talking about our
play therapy stuff and workingwith what I affectionately call
the babies.
The babies.
Yeah, so thanks for being onyou.
You have, like, could you giveus kind of a an overview of,
(01:08):
like, what play therapy is, andmaybe some of the listeners
don't even know.
Like, in play therapy, like doyou just go in and play?
Like, is there a point to thisthing?
Like, really, is playing withtoys a meaningful thing?
I'm sure you've never heardthat.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Well, uh, I can understand, you know why someone
would ask that, and it seemslike you know that's what my
kids just do around our house.
And so, why?
Why would I invest in a playtherapy?
I think it's a really importantquestion.
So I would say that, you know,play therapy allows children to
(01:47):
communicate through the metaphorof the toys, and I would say
you know that the toys in theplayroom are really strategic
toys that help tell stories.
So there are a lot of there'snot really a lot of flashing
lights, although, by mistakeThank you Amazon there's been a
few toys that do make noise likea fire truck.
(02:10):
You know things like that.
So every now and then, there Ido have a fancy toy, if that's
what you want to call a fancytoy.
Uh, however, they are simpleanimal families, art materials.
Uh, you know some uh dollhouses, um, you know some uh
dollhouses, puppets, toys thatallow, you know they, they mimic
(02:30):
something in a child's lifethat if they've gone through
something hard, they canreplicate it and play um in
their natural language.
And that's the beautiful partabout play is that play is
really communicating um, what isgoing on internally within a
child, but also relationally.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So when you say a metaphor, you mean like the like
, if, if they gravitate to likelet's say, their house burned,
and they gravitate to playingwith the house and the fire
truck.
You know that there's anexpression through their
language of play that that thatthey're trying to.
Basically they're working thatout in what they're doing in the
(03:06):
office.
Is that accurate?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely.
So they're.
They're holding that storyinside their brain and you know,
we would say in the right sideof their brain, when there's a
lot of emotion and side of theirbrain that develops first and
then, as they play, they'remaking sense of their
experiences yeah, yeah, nice.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So there is a purpose to play therapy.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I will say something that is unique about play
therapy that I have found in my14 and a half years of being a
play therapist is, instead ofthe toys just being a metaphor,
that can happen, and I alwayswant to leave room for that.
What I, what I really seehappening more often in the
playroom is how, how the childinteracts with me.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Ah, so it's much more .
The toys being a metaphor, Icould see getting lost in that,
and then everything being um,see getting lost in that, and
then everything being not judgedbut evaluated, and what you're
saying here is that it's reallynot.
Yes, that is a clue or a cue,no more a clue, that.
(04:17):
But what's more important ishow that interpersonal
interaction, what that tells youlike that, that interaction is
more important.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, yes, so I was most often in play therapy.
We start very non-direct, whichjust means that we are in a
process of building trust andrapport with one another, and so
when a child comes into theplayroom, they get to choose
what they want to play, um, andso there's always room for them
(04:51):
to work out maybe something hardthat they've gone through, or
to communicate, uh, you know, arelationship, maybe a hard
relationship with a siblingthrough the dollhouse or or
things to that manner.
Um, what I often find is that Ihave a kiddo who you know, kind
of on a continuum, will, youknow, just automatically say I'm
(05:13):
the teacher, you come sit overhere and I'm going to tell you
exactly how today is going to go.
Or.
I will have a kiddo that is veryquiet and kind of withdrawn and
I'm like, okay, well, I'malready thinking interpersonally
how can I help this childbecome healthier?
(05:33):
In how they interact with meand I think how they interact
with me is an example of howthey interact with those in
their world outside of theplayroom.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Right, the unknown person, the potential person in
authority.
When you're thinking about thisand you're conceptualizing how
they're approaching you, is thatthe framework that you're
laying for how you're going toapproach the kid, this child, in
each subsequent session Like?
Does that build the frameworkof the play therapy?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yes, yes, it definitely does.
I would say that my first threesessions where I'm building
trust and rapport, I'm reallytrying to put on my learning cap
.
I'm like, who do I have infront of me and what are they?
Yes, what are they playing withand are they telling a story,
and how are they interactingwith me?
And then I try to gauge andthink, okay, well, out of the
(06:33):
three sessions, they have takena more dominant role and they
have asked me to play thiscertain way or to say this
certain thing, just just so.
And so I'm thinking well, here,okay, I have a kiddo that needs
to learn to increase theirflexibility and to learn to
yield and also learn to considerwho's in the room with them.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
That's fascinating Because of the conceptualization
.
What you're saying is you'retaking play therapy into a place
of an interpersonal realm and,to your knowledge, is there play
therapy that is taught inschool, like in graduate schools
?
Is there a play therapy thatdoes this, or would you say that
this is something that's unique?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I would say it's more unique are a few modalities
that, um, you know, would bringparents into the playroom and
have different activities forthem, or teach parents a
non-direct form of play therapy,and those there's value there,
um, but as far as you know,considering um the relationship
(07:38):
with the therapist as a smallexample of what relationships
look like generally for thischild, no, that's, that's a
pretty new pretty new.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
You know, we here at restoration have a really neat
opportunity to know and bementored by big Jim, or Jim
McCullough, who wrote the, theCBASP therapy, the therapy model
um cognitive behavioralanalysis, systems of
psychotherapy, where one of hisbig tenants of CBASP is
utilizing the therapist as the atool in the, the therapeutic
(08:13):
process.
And to see that matriculatethrough the with the babies or
the children, I think is one ofthe most special, um exciting
things that's going on in ourfield right now.
One of the things that I wouldimagine that I might say if I
were in your shoes is that do werecognize that we're building a
(08:39):
relationship with our childrenas parents, with our children as
parents?
I mean, you're using the magic Iand I I would call it magic of
a relationship with these kidsthat you're treating and you're
teaching them how to cope with,deal with, struggle through
struggle, well, through some oftheir, their significant
(09:01):
concerns, and you're utilizingyou as a tool and a mechanism.
Are there things in thatrelationship that you think, hey
, mom and dad or caregiver,these are really powerful things
to know, like if you come instrong and domineering, that
you're going to push out of yourkid almost reflexively a
(09:25):
submissive stance from them,meaning they'll back away and
you won't see who they are.
Or if you're hostile in thehostile sense of being like stay
away from me, or creatingsomething where they back up
from you, your chances areyou're going to get that back,
like any tips that you thinkparents might need to know.
(09:46):
You know just thinking throughtheir own behavior and
interacting with their kids.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Something that I will tell parents often is that you
are a large, you're the largestreinforcer in your child's life.
I love that reinforcer in yourchild's life and so, um, you
know, my job as a play therapistis to enter in for a little
while to understand your childand how they're relating to me
as a reflection of how they'rerelating to you, um, and very
(10:14):
often I will find that what aparent experiences, I experience
a more polite version, and so Iwill enter in and um relate to
a, to a child, in such a waywhere, well, first I'm being
mindful of who are they in theroom with me and, like I
mentioned a little bit earlierthat there'll be about three
sessions where I'm just tryingto figure out, hey, what is
(10:36):
happening from session tosession and what is the theme
that's occurring relationallyLike.
Are they very dominant?
Are they very withdrawn from me?
Are they very pleasing with me?
You know what?
Are they very dominant?
Are they very withdrawn from me?
Are they very pleasing with me?
You know what are therelational themes.
And then I consider how can Ienter in to teach them an area
where they're weak, right, howcan I grow them interpersonally?
(10:57):
And so I would encourageparents that they have that same
opportunity, but all day, everyday, you know all of these
opportunities to make an impacton their child.
When a parent enters in to asituation that may be difficult
to parent, but they enter inwith, you know a lot of nurture,
(11:19):
high relationship, also withconsistency and with boundaries
and limits, and when those gohand in hand the relationship
component and the structurethere's a lot of goodness that
will come from that and thekiddos will learn with time.
Well, I can really trust myparent.
This is who they are day in andday out and they really delight
(11:43):
in me, and so when a kid knowsthat a parent delights in them
and also can provide consistentlimits, there's a lot of really
safe learning that happens.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Do you think it sounds like to me that you're
advocating for attachment like asecure attachment, and what do
I mean by attachment?
A place where a kid feels safeto be known, to be seen, that
they know that their needs willbe cared for.
Do you want to add anything tothat definition?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Oh sure, that's a great summary, knowing that a
parent or a caregiver willconsistently be there for me.
You know, with some of ourphysical needs it kind of starts
there as an infant, also, justwith my relational needs.
Sometimes parents I'll evenhave a parent every now and then
(12:42):
who worries about theirattachment with their child and
I'll just ask him, like, do youdelight in your child?
You know, and, and and.
The honest answer is there.
The honesty behind that is thatsometimes we have hard
struggles with our kids.
But overall, can you, can youthink about?
You know, when you picture andthink about your child like, do
(13:03):
you delight in who they are?
Right, and it's like the verycore of secure attachment is
just this relationally,relationally enjoying our
children.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
You know, it's so fascinating to me about
attachment in this is that youknow, we know as a therapist
with adults, that the person,that the client, the patient, is
attaching to us when they holdus in their mind when we're not
there, Meaning hey, I wasthinking about, I was talking
(13:37):
very negatively to myself andyour voice came into my mind
saying hey, don't talk to myfriend that way.
Or hey, don't talk to my friendthat way.
Or hey, you know, don't talk tomy.
You know, don't talk tosomebody that I care about that
way.
And you know that that's whenthere's an attachment that's
been made, is that they carryyour voice around in in their
(13:57):
mind.
What you're laying out here isthat you're teaching parents
that bringing in that, that thatwarmth, that connection, is
really, really important tolaying those tracks, if you will
, those grooving their brain.
(14:19):
For the grooving the child'sbrain, for that attachment to
them as the parent, so that theyfeel safe and secure, that then
they can act out their life oract out is probably not a great
way to say that but they canlive out their life and even as
a child, go run experiments thatmay have risk, right, but they
know that there's a lovingparent there to run back to, to
(14:41):
help figure it all out.
Back to to help figure it allout, and that if you are
experiencing something, that ifa kid needs to come in for play
therapy, I'm not saying thatit's on the parent as to why
that kid is there, but that theparent can learn to be a tool.
Because I think a lot of timesI know that a lot of parents
(15:01):
will say you know, my kid needshelp, my kid needs therapy.
What have I done wrong?
Where have I gone wrong?
And I guess the big messagethat I'm asking you, that I
really am hopeful that parentshear, is if your kid needs
something that's extra, it's notbecause you've somehow failed.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, that's so true.
I mean, I think you know everyparent is doing the best that
they can with the tools thatthey have and you know play
therapy allows for there to besomeone who also gets to know
your child and, like I mentionedearlier that the impact that
their child is having on theplay therapist is very similar
(15:44):
to how the child impacts theparent.
And so it's.
It's a moment of hey, the childgets to learn with the play
therapist um, you know, uh, ahealthy way of interacting, and
then also the play therapistgets to know the child, so that
the play therapist cancommunicate to the parents like
hey, here are some ideas, here'ssomething I tried in the
(16:07):
playroom, here's what that couldlook like at home.
Um, and there's, I think themost effective play therapy
considers the whole familysystem, right, Well, you say
that again.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
cause that's so powerful?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The most effective play therapy is considering the
family system.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah.
So I would let me say it thisway and we'll see if that kind
of makes sense is that if therewas a play therapist who would
meet with a child and they youknow, it is just between the two
of them and the child is ableto play and choose their
(16:51):
activities in the playroom.
There is learning, there isvalue in that.
That is important.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I think one of the things that I hear you saying,
kara, is that a parent impactstheir child, and if a play
therapist is impactful andthey're only working with that
child, they're impactful.
To the degree with which theywork with the child the playroom
(17:31):
more specifically and implementthat throughout the week,
throughout the the, the dayswhen the child isn't in the
playroom, that it certainly ismore impactful, not only on the
child, on the parent, but Iwould say even more importantly
and I think you might agree withme here, even more importantly,
the parent and the child in theway that they relate.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
It allows the parent to haveinsight of how can I interact
with my child in such a way thatmakes an impact on them just
ample amounts of time.
And so there's learning thatcan happen in the playroom, but
(18:11):
there's so much more learningthat can happen inside their
household, where they are day inand day out interacting with
their parents and with theirsiblings, or, you know, with
peers at school.
Yeah.
So it's really about equippingthe parents to know, hey, here's
some ways I can really care formy child.
And and then it's also my jobto help the parents really get
(18:31):
specific in different areas oflike hey, if they're really
struggling on the way to school,let's think through some ways
that you parent can enter inwith you know, um, I'll often
say with friendly, dominantbehavior, but really I
synonymously, uh would say witha lot of nurture and a lot of
structure.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Right To, to, To decode that friendly, dominant
behavior.
It's the behavior that isguiding and teaching with a
kindness like what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, I think sometimes, when parents are
dominant, they think, oh great,then I can just lambast this kid
with all of my emotions, right,and it's like boy.
That couldn't be further fromthe truth.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, definitely I think.
Another, you know, in theparenting realm you'll often
hear authoritative parenting andI you know friendly, dominant
is a another way to say that,that similar concept of there's
high relationship and there'shigh structure here.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
There's both at the same time.
You're not accustomed to.
It's like there's this, it is aum, it's like we don't know
what to do sometimes.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Oh, definitely.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And so it's like we feel really out, we feel really
out of control.
And there was a book writtenabout strong-willed children
We'll leave the author's nameout of it, but the the message
was you get control.
Parent, or your strong willedchild will get control.
And where I wish that therewould have been a little more
(20:18):
encouragement or a little moreperhaps instruction, is get
control of what, because I thinkall too often people read that
and go well, I need to getcontrol of that kid.
But that doesn't seem veryrelational, it's definitely not
interpersonal and so it's wait,I need to get control of me as
the parent and if I'm in controlof me as the parent, that kid
(20:41):
may be out of control for themoment.
But the idea is, if I'm incontrol, I can be warm and I can
be high you know highrelationship and I can be highly
structured and the structurewill not come out of anger
because I'm in control of me.
You think that's a fairassessment.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
I do, I think you know.
Uh, that might be just be thehardest part of parenting is to
uh, especially when, uh, youknow, our kiddos are going
through a hard moment ofdysregulation to be that calm,
regulated presence, and sosometimes we have to take a
moment so that we can enter in.
It's not just this superheropower, you know, it's a lot of
(21:21):
practice, it's a lot ofextending grace to ourselves as
parents to be able to, you know,pause and not just be impulsive
and not just react.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Boy.
That's the truth.
I will tell you that timeoutswere not.
I don't believe that timeoutswere designed for a uh, an inch,
a uh, a disciplinary tactic, asmuch as they were designed to
teach emotional regulation.
In other words, you don't wantthe consequence to be a timeout
(21:55):
If the kid destroyed theplayroom.
The timeout is to help themregulate their emotions so that
they can go, help you put theplayroom back together.
But I always I, when I wasraising my kids, when they were
really little I used to say hey,daddy needs a timeout here
because mad daddy doesn't wantto show up and I want to be, I
(22:16):
want to be calm daddy, but maddaddy's on his way, so I need to
go and quell him, so that andit's like I it was, you know,
taking timeouts, and my hope wasthat I was teaching them that
it's okay to experience thesehigh emotions.
You just have to deal with themin a way that's not
deconstructive but isconstructive, or destructive but
(22:38):
it's constructive.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I'll often encourage parents to have their child have
a place to think it over, right, if something happened that
wasn't the best choice ofbehavior, I mean let your
imaginations just go there for aminute is that, hey, we need
our kids to think it over, andwe'll just tell them that, hey,
(23:04):
you're right here.
And then I'm going to just be afew steps away and when you're
ready to talk about it, just sayready, and we'll come.
And we'll come and we'lladdress it, and then we'll go
and we'll maybe, as an example,clean up the playroom together
that was completely destroyed,and then they will practice the
desired behavior right.
So it's a moment to calmoneself, a moment to have some
(23:25):
reflection, and then it's amoment of actually practicing
the behavior that you are asking.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
How would you, how would you coach a parent who the
kid is ready, but the parent'sstill angry?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Well, I would say, if a kid is ready but the parent
is still angry, then you cancommunicate to the child I'm so
glad you're ready, and I amgoing to take a few more, few
more moments and then and thenwe'll go and we'll talk about it
.
So I say that because we don'twant to rush the process,
because your, your kiddo can,can pick up on your emotion
(23:59):
dysregulation and if you reallyare wanting your kid to be in a
place where their brain is calmenough to learn, then we have to
be mindful of what we'rebringing to that situation.
So it's good for us to take thetime that we need so that we
can be that model of emotionregulation, because how we come
(24:22):
into the situation will overflowonto our children.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
That's true, boy.
Our emotions do tend to set.
They set a tone, don't they?
Oh, absolutely.
Those little kids are likelittle brawners.
That's true, boy.
Our emotions do tend to set.
They set a tone, don't they?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Those little kids are like little brawners.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Absolutely.
I am just that last week I wasin the grocery store and I was
feeling stressed because of thetime limit before having to go
pick up my oldest and my middlechild was like Mom, I love you,
mom, I love you and I was likewhat is happening right?
Now.
And I was like I love you too,and and you know what, Are you
(24:56):
picking up on the fact thatmom's a little stressed right
now?
Yes, I was like you know what,sweetie, I love you so much and
you, you do not have to beresponsible for my emotions
right now.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
That's a cool message at her age.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I hope she was able to understand that.
But I was literally in thefrozen section of Whole Foods
just being like, just hold on, Igot it.
Hold on, I got it.
What's happening here?
And I know that it was such areminder for me in that moment
that, like hey, she can reallyfeel how I'm feeling and it's
having an impact on her and sheknows when I'm in my you know,
(25:33):
like we said a moment ago myfriendly dominant place, that's
a sweet spot of like hey,there's a lot of, there's a lot
of fun, there's a lot ofinteracting, there's a lot of,
you know, reading a booktogether at night or there's
just moments to snuggle togetherand just this relation, these
relationally rich moments.
And I want to be mindful of,hey, what are my emotions and,
um, how that impacts my kids.
(25:53):
And so those are things thatyou know it's, it's, that's my
life as a parent.
But those things are true forin the playroom also.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
That example, I think , was really helpful.
Thank you for that, because youknow, because you know, being
aware, being curious about ifshe's telling you she loves you.
And she's telling you she lovesyou and you're like yeah, great
, thank you, I love you too.
I love you too.
Oh my gosh, yep, love you too.
(26:23):
And it's like, if we remainunaware of our impact, we may
respond out of like oh my gosh,I love you too, do you not
believe me?
And we could respond withfrustration, thinking that, like
, this is not annoying that ourkid is telling us that, but the
repetition can becomefrustrating to a parent.
(26:45):
Sure.
And I think, like you said, yourfirst three sessions are all
about being curious andunderstanding the kid that's in
the, in the, in the playroom.
It's like, hey, parents, let'sall be curious about our kids,
let's all be.
And, again, we're not going tobe perfect at this, so please
don't put that as another brickin your backpack, parents,
because we all know thatparenting little ones is like
(27:06):
like we know there's a boulderback there.
Little ones is like like weknow there's a boulder back
there.
And it's like sometimes the waywe can lighten our load is to
recognize wait, this isrepetitive.
Hey, what's going on,sweetheart?
Uh, are you picking up on that?
I'm stressed because I thinkthat in that it's you being
self-aware and also carryingcarrying an awareness of her.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah definitely.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
And that goes from and this is my favorite thing to
talk about that goes from anintrapersonal or a
self-awareness that wait asecond, I'm starting to get this
.
I love you, I love you, I loveyou.
The repetition is wait.
Now we're going to move tointerpersonal awareness of that
between us, awareness of saying,wait, sweetheart, are you
(27:53):
picking up on mommy's stress?
Yes, it's like okay.
So it went from intrapersonalto interpersonal and then you
came back to your self-awareness, right, the intrapersonal
awareness, and you offered her adifferent solution of hey, you
don't have to take care of that.
And whether she understood itor not, you're, I believe,
(28:16):
you're building a pathway of.
She says I don't have to beresponsible for that.
I don't know what that means,but I'll sure I'll figure it out
someday, someday.
And it's like the more yourepeat that, the more she
understands what responsibilityis, the more every time you
teach her about responsibility,that's kind of tucked away in
the back of her back of herbrain.
(28:36):
What a beautiful example, whata beautiful message that you
sent her that day.
And what a great example of thatback and forth, that intra
personal self-awareness to theinterpersonal the.
You went from me to we, back tome, and then offered her
something really beautiful.
You let her off the hook.
(28:56):
Yeah, well done.
All while you're stressed outin the middle of whole foods
trying to get some food hashtaggoals people.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
That's really cool.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, I think that at times, when people hear that
it's play therapy and they'replaying, they get skeptical and
they think, well, wait a minute,you're going to just teach them
how to play.
But I think Let me toss this toyou how would you?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
How would you characterize somebody saying
that?
How would you debunk that myth?
We're just playing, it's likewe're playing, but as we're
playing it's really thisreal-life emotional learning
that's occurring.
Because if it's, you know, I'mthinking through a client who
(30:09):
and this is often I'll oftenhave very dominant kids come
into the playroom that reallylove to run the show and I'm
thinking how can you be mindfulof me in the room?
How can you be mindful of me inthe room?
Because if they were to justlearn to continue to be dominant
and maybe exert their controlwith their peers or with their
parents, I mean, I kind of hateto say it, but it might just be
a really lonely relationalexperience for them as they
continue to grow.
(30:30):
If they never learn to doanything different, then that
could really impact theirrelationships negatively.
So I think like, okay, well,how can I enter in here to this
moment and how can I teach youto think about?
You know, if you want to justdo trick shots with basketball
the whole time, what about me,Like I like basketball I mean
kind of I do, but I likebasketball.
(30:51):
And what if I want to take ashot, Like may I have a turn
Right?
And so there's this consideringwho else is in the room with
them.
So, yes, we're, you know we'replaying basketball, or we're
creating a story with puppetstogether.
What if the puppet didn't knowthat it was going to absorb that
(31:16):
puppet's power?
Until this happened and there'salways I look for opportunities
where I can insert an idea sothat the child can learn to be
flexible.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So it's their learning with me, flexibility,
they're learning to consider me,and those are lifelong lessons
for relationships here on after,yeah, I love that You're saying
that typically the kiddos thatyou see are going to be more of
the fill up the room type child,as opposed to the to the slink
(31:46):
away and not engage typically,because I would imagine that if
you have a fairly compliantchild that you're going to bump
along as a family and feelpretty good about that
compliance.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
That's true, it's sneaky.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Compliance is a very, very sneaky thing.
I remember when one of my kidswho tends to be a little more
compliant, on the compliant sideof the scale, they ran upstairs
and slam their door and Iremember running up the stairs
behind them going, oh, my gosh,high five.
You just slammed your door andthey were like, oh, you ruined
(32:25):
the moment.
I'm like, okay, probably, butyou're right, you don't want
that compliance to always besomething that you celebrate.
Um, and, and I'm gonna give,I'm gonna maybe give a little
bit of background as to why, inthe sense that you don't want
compliance to always to to besomething that we always
(32:46):
celebrate, is because, like,compliance to what it's,
compliance to you now, but ifthey don't learn to think on
their own, you don't want themto listen to the loudest voice
in the room, cause that loudestvoice in the room in certain
rooms may be the most nefariousvoice in the room, would you?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, definitely.
If I have a more compliant or amore submissive kid in the
playroom, I'm thinking, you know, I it's.
It is easier in some waysbecause they are like well, what
do you want to play with?
And I'm like, wow, that'samazing.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I feel so, considered yes.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
But then I'm like, well, hold on here.
Like how can I, yes, appreciatethat you're thinking of me, but
also empower you to use yourvoice?
And so you know, I'll ask himlike hey, why don't you just
look around the playroom, takeit all in and then whatever
looks the most fun to you?
(33:44):
I really want to hear that.
And so, really, the playroomcan be a place where a kiddo
learns to be flexible, learns tobe mindful, learns how to share
power, and also the playroomcan be a place where a kid
learns to kind of break free andexpress themselves and share,
and, you know, not just playwith the fidgets in the sand
(34:05):
very quietly, but then they movefrom that to the whole
explorative.
Like we have the army men outand it's a whole battle, and
I've created and these are reallife stories and I've created
this Island out of the sand andit's an amazing world.
And I'm like, wow, like the,you were once in a shell, but
(34:26):
now, now you've opened up andwhat I'm getting to experience
is really beautiful.
And and I always that'ssomething I haven't said yet is
I want to be mindful, tocommunicate the impact that
they're having on me to them.
Like, hey, you know, what'sreally cool about today is that,
um, you know you really thoughtabout me, that you, you shared,
(34:48):
uh, the basketball with me.
I'll get very specific aboutwhat went well, because I really
want to tell them so that theylearn.
I want to reinforce that.
So if I have a kid who's morecompliant, I'm like I'm so glad
you shared with me what youactually wanted to do or what
was on your mind, or that you,you know something cool today.
If it's a smaller goal might bethat hey, you played with a new
(35:11):
toy today and that was prettycool to see you grab the?
Um, the action figures.
I liked that.
You did that.
So I'm always trying to thinkthrough how can I encourage them
for moving right,interpersonally moving of, to
showing more flexibility or to,um, communicating more openly?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I think the the joy of that, or the excitement of
that, is when you talk aboutobserving their movement.
It's their movement based onwhat?
And it's based on you, right,You're teaching them their
impact in that playroom andyou're the only other living
human being in that playroom.
(35:52):
All the rest of it is inanimateobjects the toys and teaching
them their impact on you, andit's like that's truly a thread
of therapy, from the childrenall the way up.
It's learning your impact onothers.
I think parenting that's areally big part of parenting is
(36:15):
teaching your kids that theyhave impact.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And I love that.
You're very specific and theyknow that.
You know you were pleased, butit wasn't because it was like a
random.
Okay, I pleased you, but I'mnot sure how I love the going
back to your example.
In whole foods, I love you.
I love you Cause I know you'repleased.
When I tell you I love you,it's like, okay, how do I please
(36:39):
you?
And it's like, oh, no, no, no,you don't need to please me here
.
Yeah, you get to be you.
And it's like you're lettingthese kids play, be themselves,
all, all, while directing themand showing them a new
opportunity perhaps, and thengiving them such feedback of
here's what specifically you didthat warranted this feedback.
(37:04):
Yeah.
That's a powerful process.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, I agree, I agree, and it's really beautiful
to see play therapy unfold overthe sessions.
You know, because you know uh,a very withdrawn child, to see
uh, him or her open up to smileat me, to say hi, you know, to
come and be like I need to.
(37:28):
I want to tell you this aboutmy week and I'm like you want to
talk to me Like this is dope.
This is so different from how westarted, like I'm so grateful
that this is the place that weare at now, right, or if I have
you know more, some more of mydominant kiddos, and if it's
been a while since I've seenthem, I'll say I'll say, okay,
(37:49):
how do we, how do we playtogether?
Okay, here's how we playtogether.
We take turns, we don't throwthe ball as hard as we can, we
don't shoot the dart gun at oneanother.
(38:10):
I mean, they'll go through therules, rules and I'll say those
are you know.
They'll say we think about eachother, we take turns.
They'll say some more positivethings too, and then I'll say
and he's like, have fun, that'sright, we're totally going to
have fun today.
That is the goal.
And so with that, with thatparticular one, I always end,
hey, because we played by therules, like you and I, we had a
(38:33):
lot of fun together.
So it's sweet to see them.
They learn, and then theychange.
And then I just kind of get tokeep encouraging them for how
they've changed.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
I know that as a parent, it was really.
It was it and even maybeencouraged for me to teach my
kids that they do have an impacton me, like you did in whole
foods.
It wasn't you're notresponsible for me, but you do
have an impact on me.
It's like if my kids don't takethe trash out, it's like hey,
(39:11):
listen, this is this, is howthis landed on me.
Like I had to do this.
It kind of took some extra timeout of my day.
I'm not telling you that to makeyou feel bad.
I just want you to know thatyou're important in this family
and the things that you domatter and they impact us, and I
think that I want to encourageparents Like it's first of all,
(39:34):
we don't want to shame and it'snot something that we're saying
like therefore, you make me feela certain way when you do X,
it's more of hey, your behaviormatters, your behavior impacts
me, but and I would encourageparents, understand that, even
if you don't communicate that toyour kid, understand the impact
(39:55):
that that kid is having on you,would you?
Would you add or take away fromthat?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
It is important for us as as parents and of course
is with myself as a playtherapist to communicate the
impact that our, our childrenare having on us.
I want to encourage parents tostart by communicating the
positive impact that your kidshave on you.
(40:23):
You know it's easier to drawattention to misbehavior at
times rather than just statingwhat we're enjoying, because
when things are going smoothly,I know for me as a parent, I'll
just kind of fall into okay,everybody's settled, I can go
tackle my to-do list, right, andI want to keep growing as a
(40:46):
parent and noticing the good,right, and noticing the positive
impacts that our children haveon us.
And so when there is anabundance of almost like these
relationship deposits, then wecan also know that we have that
(41:09):
saved up in a sense, so that wecan go in and communicate hey,
you know when, uh, when I had toask you a few times to go take
a shower, like that was, thatwas really frustrating, all
right.
So what can we do differently?
How can we handle thisnighttime situation differently,
so that when I just asked youto go take a shower, it happens
(41:31):
faster next time, right?
So it is important to be honestabout those impacts, but the
more constructive feedback needsto come from a place that has
been first met with connection.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yes, without question , and that to me, I'm glad you
stated it that way and that tome, I'm glad you stated it that
(42:17):
way the whole idea of impact isto teach is about connection,
right learning occurring, but itis not a type of learning that
we're after.
It is a disconnecting.
Okay, you're not safe.
It's not safe to make mistakesand that is the antithesis of
what I hope, as parents, thatwe're trying to teach our kids.
Kara, one question that I havefor you is you know there's some
(42:47):
parents that say so.
If I'm in a rush and you knowI'm late for work or they're
late for school, you want me todo all this connecting, some
parents will say mumbo jumbo andthere's just not time, it's
just not practical.
How would you speak to that?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Well, you know being have demands that we need to
move along.
But I would just say that thosemoments where there's some
stress or some misbehavior andthere's a responsibility to get
to, you know, those will go moresmoothly if we are more
intentional and attentional.
(43:37):
Other times of the day where wedo have some margin, and I'll
just go ahead and say and if weare, if we are too busy, um, and
we're too rushed, uh, with ourschedules and with our demands,
and we are going to really missthose opportunities to slow down
and connect.
So I would encourage parentsthat, you know, if you find
(43:59):
yourself getting into a lot ofpower struggles, well, let's
take a step back, let's considerour time with our child and
let's, you know, create somemargin for connection to help us
get through those hotspotmoments.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
I think that's such a great point because life can
get hectic.
Life doesn't have to remainhectic and, man, if you get into
power struggles, you may wantto look at who's trying to hold
all the power right.
And as parents, we shouldn't beholding all the power.
We need to be sharing power,and the older they get, the more
power we're giving them grantedbecause it's been earned.
(44:36):
But here's the here's thereality.
Whether it's earned or not,they hold their own personal
power, whether we like it or not.
And it's all about negotiating,right?
I know working with teenagers.
It really is all about helpingparents learn to negotiate.
And people say wait a minute,you're teaching me to negotiate
(44:57):
with a terrorist.
And I'm like well, hold on,your kid's not a terrorist,
they're a teenager.
I know they start both startwith T but they're a different,
they're a different breed.
But it's really not aboutnegotiating with demands.
It's about negotiating throughconnection, like what you're
talking about, and that's not aone-time thing.
And I love, I love, I love whatyou're putting out there, Cara
(45:19):
Burr thank you so much for beinghere today.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
We are so blessed to have you and you getting to work
with the children here at thispractice is not only a blessing
to us as practitioners but tothe families that you get to
work with and the other, uh, theother therapists that you get
to to instruct and and and ummentor, and uh, we're just
(45:45):
grateful for you.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, thank you, lee, thanks for having me, you bet.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of you.
Bet is just beginning and we'reexcited to have you with us
every step of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
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