August 26, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with counselor Brandon Stewart to talk about “Pure O,” or primarily obsessional OCD. Together, they explore what Pure O looks like beyond the stereotypes, how intrusive thoughts impact daily life, and strategies for finding clarity and hope in the midst of it.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I'm especially excited to introduce today's
topic because chances are youknow someone who struggles with
it.
It's called pure O OCD, andit's often misunderstood, but it
impacts many more people thanyou might realize.
To help us unpack this topic,I'm joined by Brandon Stewart,
licensed professional counselor.
(00:23):
He's a therapist here atorationand the head of our OCD program
.
Brandon leads both our supportgroup and our Breaking Free
program and he brings years ofexperience helping people
navigate OCD in all of its formsTogether.
We'll talk about what Pure Oreally is, the misconceptions
(00:47):
around it and the practical waysto break free and show up more
fully in life.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Early on in my career I had a client who had OCD, you
know, bought a book on it andthen just found it really
interesting.
Um, I thought it was uh, oddlyit was fun what do you love
about it?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
What made it fun to you?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I thought it was cool of the therapy is actually
fairly straightforward.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And it just made sense to me.
It clicked for straightforward,yeah, and it just made sense to
me.
It clicked for me, yeah, and sothat was cool.
And then when I wasimplementing the treatment, it
worked and people got better andthat's so rewarding, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
People like.
If people come to our house fordinner, you know I like to do
the dishes and people are likeyou do, like, yes, most of what
we do we don't get to see adirect resolution.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It gets better.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, it's like doing the dishes or cutting the grass
or like doing something thathas a very, very defined
beginning and end and you cansee the result is kind of a nice
.
That's satisfying.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm wondering if it's, if, ifworking with OCD was sort of
like that for you where you feltlike there was a defined yeah
Process, there was a definedprocess of, like you're saying,
of also like working with aclient who maybe had a traumatic
(02:34):
childhood and they want to workthrough that and figure out new
ways to relate to people.
Or they're you know, they'remarried and it's coming out and
that's a.
I really enjoy that.
But that's, you know, it's alittle bit more nebulous, Isn't
quite the right word, but it's alittle obscure, it's gradual,
it's obscure.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, people ask me from time to time do you believe
people can change?
And I'm like, well, yes, right,we wouldn't be in this field,
right, but they.
But I also believe that Ialways draw a scale on my
whiteboard and I say there's atthe zero, is in the middle,
there's a negative number outhere and then there's an
(03:16):
equivalent positive number onthe other side.
That if you have somebodythat's like, say, at a negative
75, if they move 25 spaces tothe negative 50, like that's
huge, right.
But the reason why people feellike nobody changes is because
there's still a negative infront of that number.
Yeah, our perception is is thata person's going to go from
(03:37):
negative 75 all the way to thepositive 75.
Yeah, and that'd be a miraclefrom God.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Right, it doesn't always work that way, right,
(04:06):
yeah, and that'd be a miraclefrom God, right, it doesn't
always work that way, right,usually doesn't, yeah.
And so, watching people change,where you can graph it, yeah,
they were also just feeling lessanxious, less triggered, yeah,
and again, you could graph thatand then they could see that and
right, you know, uh, that's fun.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And so OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder and a lot
of people and we've talked aboutthis before you and I that a
lot of people say likecolloquially oh, I have OCD
because they like things acertain way.
Right, and we know that it'snot a clinical OCD, right, they
may have the little bit of the Omaybe a little bit of the C,
but they don't have the D Right,and so you, you, you're.
(04:41):
You're bringing up today thatwhole idea of the the pure O OCD
.
Can you kind of give us alittle background of what that
is or what that means?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah.
So the funny thing is it's abit of a misnomer in that they
used to think someone who hadOCD this subtype was purely
obsessional, meaning they onlyhad obsessions and no
(05:11):
compulsions.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So break that down for us.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I'll break that down of how I think of it is the
obsession, is the fear.
It is the obsession is the fear, um, and then the compulsion is
the behavior, the thing that Ido to reduce the fear or prevent
the feared outcome.
Okay, so, um, I'm going to movethis back a little bit.
(05:40):
Um, the classic example, theeasiest one to think of, is
germs, right, so I have anobsession with germs.
I have a fear that, um, I'llget germs on my hand and I'll
become sick, maybe get a stomachbug.
So that's my obsession the fearis getting a stomach bug.
(06:03):
The compulsion is washing myhands, and so I wash my hands,
or I avoid touching things, Iavoid going to public places,
avoid people who look likethey're sick, you name it.
And those are all compulsions,it and those are all compulsions
(06:30):
.
So, for the pure O folks, theyused to think they don't have
any compulsions, they're justthinking.
It's just all in their head andso visually you'll never see an
external compulsion.
But that actually is not true.
Um, and that's kind of thetricky thing about Puro that I
thought would be good to talkabout.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, so the, the so, just so that I'm making sure
that I'm hearing you, right?
Yeah, there's like, let's say,if I'm obsessed with germs but I
don't have something that, oror the obsessed like have this,
this desire not to get sick but,I, don't have a hand washing
(07:10):
ritual or I don't necessarilyavoid places where people are
sick.
I just sit in that ruminationof I might get sicker, I might
get sicker, I might get sickerRight, is that what you're
describing?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yes, though the only thing I would change is
typically a person.
If we're talking about a personwho is worried about germs or
contamination, I would say theyalways have the compulsion with
it.
The compulsion, the overt one,that you're going to see.
(07:49):
So there's the pure O.
People have more specificobsessions that are not
contamination related, right,usually.
So what example?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
would you use Like what?
What do you see?
Because, I'm assuming thatthese are folks that you see,
yes, and so what do you see Like?
What are the themes that you?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
see the big themes are and this is a little bit
PG-13, if you will, but the bigthemes are usually violence,
sexual, religious and thensometimes neutral, which we
(08:24):
could get into as well.
That one can be kind ofconfusing, but the big themes
are usually violent, sexual,religious.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So could you give me an example of those three is a
person.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
their obsession, their fear is what if one day I
snap and I go crazy and kill mykids or kill somebody or just
(09:01):
run amok and just do wild, crazy, embarrassing things?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So that would be the obsession, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Um so, like that movie with Kurt Douglas, where
he just has enough and he walksaround with guns and starts
acting like he's going to, orthreatening to, shoot everything
.
Yes, that's that thought.
They carry that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, they would.
I haven't seen that movie, buta person with that obsession,
would hate that movie.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
They would not want to see I'm date stamping myself
because it's an old movie, butyeah, it's out there yeah, so
that that whole, the whole kurtdouglas movie, that part of it
would be um an example of maybe,what's going on inside their
head.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yes, Freaked out that they might do that Right.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And become violent.
Right Be it again.
Kill somebody, attack somebody,hurt somebody, grope somebody.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Okay, so now we're moving to the sexual piece.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, that kind of moves into the sexual piece, but
it's.
You know, am I a violent person?
Am I capable of violence?
Would I do something like that?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
and, to be clear, it's not that there is, it's not
that there's the desire to dothat it's the fear exactly, yeah
(10:35):
, they have no desire to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Um, they're the nicest people, you know.
They're the safest people,Right?
So they're not.
You know, if you were assessingthis person or diagnosing them,
you wouldn't be diagnosing themof?
Oh?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
they're a threat to others.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And they've got this personality disorder.
We need to watch out for them.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It's almost like they're trying to protect the
world from themselves.
Yes, and they're trying toprotect the world from their
thought.
Yeah, yeah, that fearfulthemselves.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And they're trying to protect the world's the world
from their thought.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, yeah that that fearful thought.
Yes, not that.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I want to do this.
I want to protect the worldagainst it.
I don't want to do it, butthere's some outside force that
I'm afraid that is going to push.
I'm going to be compelled to doit.
Yeah.
And that's the fear.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, Usually it starts with I mean, when you
think about it, all of us havedark thoughts.
Everybody has weird out ofpocket thoughts that they don't
know why they just thought of it, but they do, um, and one
example I've heard before is um,this, this becomes dark, but
(11:48):
that's just the nature of it, ofa person holds a little baby
and they're like, oh my gosh,they're just like so tiny,
they're so fragile, and partlywhat they're not saying is like
if I dropped the baby, the babywould get really hurt, right, um
(12:09):
, and a person without OCD couldhave that thought and not think
much of that thought.
It's just the overall idea thata baby is fragile, right, and I
, you know it's life is in myhands right now.
A person with OCD who isstruggling with pure O or this
could maybe be the start of itis they have that same thought
(12:32):
that everybody else has, butthat thought they then latch on
to and become very fearful of ohmy gosh, why did I have that
thought?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's right.
It's the rabbit trailing ofchasing down the why.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, yeah.
What does this mean about me?
Right that I'm thinking aboutthis, or I had that image in my
head.
What does that mean about me?
Do I want to do that?
And the rabbit?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
hole right and assigning meaning to a thought.
And I always tell people youcannot control who knocks on
your door, but you can certainlycontrol who comes into your
home.
Yeah, and we have, like yousaid.
I'm so glad you said that wehave thoughts that fly around
and they don't make sense, Right, and if you start trying to
(13:26):
make sense of it, it might driveyou crazy.
Yes, Not not literally, but itmight, yeah, yeah.
And it's when we step back andand and say that's a thought,
I'm not letting it in, butanyway.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I don't want to get into too much of that.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, but so that's the violent, so it's, but so
that's the violent, so it's.
My fear is the, the, the Puro,being pure obsession, right, and
so it's that thought of like,oh my gosh, I don't want to end
up doing something negative.
I need to protect the worldfrom my thoughts.
Yeah, my thoughts are I may endup running amok.
I love that, and so I don'twant to run amok.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
And so that's where the loop happens, for them, yeah
, and a person could be thinkingabout that and you would never
know, right, and that's wherethe Puro, where they first
called it that, because it was Idon't see you washing your
hands.
I don't see you checking thelock.
I don't see you checking thelock.
(14:23):
I don't visually see anything,but yet they are in their head
being tortured by that fear andby that thought, right, um, and
they are still doing compulsions.
It's just sneaky.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, they're internal.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, potentially they're internal, but they
actually can also be external,right Too.
Yeah, nice, okay, and so thenthe yeah, potentially they're
internal, but they actually canalso be external right too.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah, nice, okay, and so then the a sexual example of
that would be, like you said.
I'm afraid I'm gonna gropesomeone.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, it's very similar to the violent, just you
know like, am I a predator?
Am I a pedophile?
Do I want to commit bestiality?
Or it can be kind of on a lowerlevel.
Those would be.
Those are some more.
That's violent also in natureRight Violent with a sexual
(15:24):
twist yeah.
But they can also be, um, like,a spouse is worried.
Do I want to cheat on my wife,Um, or am I attracted to her?
Am I more attracted to thisperson?
What does this mean?
That I'm attracted to thisother person?
Um, and there's also one wherea person starts doubting their
(15:46):
sexuality of, uh, you know aperson who very much is straight
, very much is attracted to theopposite sex, but then starts to
worry am I gay?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Um, so those are kind of usually the big themes
within the sexual obsessions Icould see that being a real
struggle, because let's go backto the one where you're a
married person and you're you'reobsessing over.
Am I going to be faithful?
Yeah, and the shame associatedwith that and the fear
(16:21):
associated with that and the ohmy gosh.
What does this mean about me asa?
Oh my gosh.
What does this mean about me asa like, characterologically?
What does this mean about me asa human being?
Yeah, what does this mean aboutour marriage?
And I can see that ballooningor mushrooming into something
that's really catastrophic intheir mind yes, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
(16:41):
And the other one was, you said, religious, that's the third.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Religious, yeah, yeah .
And the other one was you saidreligious, that's the third
Religious, yeah.
Some people have maybe heardthis as scrupulosity, all sorts
of doubts or fears about theirfaith.
Do I love God, do I really loveGod?
Or do I truly believe in this?
(17:04):
Do I truly have faith?
Um, or you know, there's thatone verse about, uh, blaspheming
the Holy spirit.
Like, have I done that?
(17:24):
Do I want to do that?
Would I do that?
Um, a lot of doubting about sin, being perfectionistic, my
motivations or having kind ofritualized prayers or ritualized
.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Like practices.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, yeah, reading the Bible and then again the
sexual piece can sneak in heretoo, of seeing God or Jesus in a
sexual way that they don't wantto.
But those images pop in theirhead and oh my gosh, why am I
(18:00):
having this thought?
So it can also become likeintrusive images, where they
intrude, Like you're saying.
This thought knocks on theirdoor and maybe they don't let
them in, but they go outside andstart wrestling with that
thought is kind of how I thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, in the theme that I see here, as you're
describing it, it's like how doyou prove a negative?
Yeah Right.
It's like how do you prove anegative?
Yeah Right.
It's like how do I prove to you, to myself, or whatever, that
I'm not going to do somethingbecause it's and I will get into
the neutral here.
But it's like how do I provethat I didn't lie, that I didn't
(18:42):
think that or that that thoughtright?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
yes, so it becomes real heady and really confusing,
sure quickly super entrenched.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, I've seen people who have experienced
especially the scrupulosity partand it is it's so, and it is
it's so.
It's so intense for thembecause they believe that it's a
life or death sort of thing.
Yeah, and it is so weighty forthem to walk through.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Like I'm going to hell.
Right, I'm about to faceeternal damnation, right.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And it's in, in walking, with the weight of that
and then what it does, like asit ripples out into their, to
their family, their spouse,their family, their community,
and it's like that heavy weightis fully there, right, and so
it's.
You think about how just thetoll it takes on them.
(19:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
But there's hope, there is hope, there is hope.
And what you were saying justright then, um, is we lead a
(20:08):
free support group or offer afree?
Can sometimes be characterizedas like cute, funny quirky, but
like, as far as mental illnessgoes, like you know it's cute,
it's funny and it's a littleinvalidating.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I'm guessing to them yes, very, it's cute, it's funny
and it's a little invalidating.
I'm guessing to them yes.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Very much so.
Yeah, very much so.
Um, because, like you werepointing out, um, if someone, if
someone was scared that theywere going to be a pedophile or
like, would do something likethat, and really were wrestling
with that and getting confusedby that thought, that's
(20:50):
terrifying.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, and where?
Where could you go in societyand and to an untrained person
and say I'm worried I'm going tobe a pedophile?
It's like I don't want to endup in prison, but do I belong
there?
Should I say something likelike all of the working out of
that thought as well, that could.
(21:11):
That creates weight and painand torment.
Yes, yes.
It's unreal, yeah, like I couldimagine, you know, when people
say, oh yeah, that's just my OCD, and, like you said, it's cute
and it's it's yeah, that's justwhat I do, right, and it's like
you're orderly and maybe you'retype a, but that's not OCD.
(21:35):
No, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
No, it's not, yeah, a yeah, but that's not ocd.
No, yeah, no, it's not, yeah.
And, like you said, it can bevery lonely and isolating of hey
, how was your week?
Oh, it was pretty stressful, oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh well, my, you know, money'sa little tight.
Oh, okay, cool.
Yeah, I'm scared that I'm goingto hurt my kid like whoa.
That's different and and theuntrained person is not always
(22:02):
going to know what to do withthat.
So it's right, and they hold onto it, dialing cps like I think
my co-worker right and it'slike no, that's not it at all.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
And then, and then to the untrained person, it's like
okay, but then there are peoplewho you do have to be on on
guard, or like you have tolisten, like, hey, I'm, I'm
afraid I'm going to hurt my kid,I kind of cause I just did and
that's a whole differentconversation.
A whole different conversation,yeah, and there's that as I, as
(22:33):
I've seen it, as I, you andI've talked before, it's like
that's their fear.
Right, that's a part of theirfear.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, yeah, and and that you brought up a good point
too as far as, like historygoes, like you said, of I'm
worried I'm going to hurt my kidand cause last week I got
really angry and I did right.
These it's.
They have no history of that,they have no desire for that.
(23:02):
It's the scariest, most awfulthing that they could think of,
and so, based on that, thathelps diagnose and yeah, and it
helps us be like all of us inthe community.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Be aware, right, right, because I will say from
my perspective, the people thatI see in life, either in my
practice or in life, who havethis, the pure, that pure
obsession, they are some of themost gentle, kind, loving, like
(23:37):
you want them to be your bestfriend, because they are
genuinely like the greatestpeople and you look at them and
you're like, oh my gosh, you'relovely, you would not hurt a fly
.
And then you find that they're,you know, struggling with that
obsession, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, so tough, but there's hope.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
There is hope.
I want to keep drilling, yeah,and it's like yeah this is big,
it's, it's overwhelming for them, heavy, and yet there's hope.
Yes, yeah, there.
What's the hope?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well, the hope is is that um, cognitive behavioral
therapy, slash exposure responseprevention works?
I mean, there's a lot ofresearch behind that, decades
worth of it, right?
And while the germ OCD is for aperson, maybe untrained is
(24:36):
easier to conceptualize of likeoh yeah, okay, I could see how.
I mean, even I can see it, it'stangible.
So I could see maybe, how wecould work on that, right.
And so some people might think,well, it's all in my head, how
do I work?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
on that Right, because I can't stop washing my
hands.
Yeah, I can't expose myself tosaying, okay, I just touched
something and now I'm going togo a period of time without,
without cleansing myself.
So yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, youcan.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You can do that, you can see that Um, but the the big
point is CBbt and exposureresponse prevention still works
on puro.
It's actually no different andit works on both.
Um, it maybe is just notimmediately as understandable,
(25:34):
but it does.
It does the same thing.
So I should probably say whatexposure and response prevention
is.
Um, so people have an idea.
Um, it's funny.
I went to a uh a trainingrecently put on by the
international OCD foundation andthe guy who led it, super smart
guy, um, psychologist EricStorch.
(25:57):
He's done a lot of research onOCD and works out of the Baylor
College of Medicine in Houston.
But he said several times hewas like remember the acronym
KISS, keep it simple, stupid.
He was like yeah it's, don'tovercomplicate it, which I
appreciated.
(26:17):
So, yeah it's, it's not overlycomplicated, and I think when I
say it, people are like oh yeahthat makes sense.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Okay, I'm going to just pause you there for a
second because I think that thatwhole I've always heard the
keep it simple, sweetheart.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I've heard the stupid and I like that but.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
But I love the keep it simple because I think all
too often, like, what we'retalking about is complex and the
way that the mind grabs it andwhat it does with it, it feels
complex for the partners or thespouses or the family members
that are dealing with it or thatlive amongst that.
Right, I've spoken with so manypeople who have a family member
(27:09):
, a partner, a loved one thatdeal with this and it feels
overwhelming and complex.
So keeping it simple, I think,is a really big, huge part of
this.
So, yeah, keeping it simple,yes, I think is a really big,
like huge part of this.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's excellent.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Let's not get too lost in it, and we'll just break
it down and make it very clearso again, I'll use germs,
because that's the easiest placeto start.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I'm going to expose myself to a thing I fear.
So a bathroom door handle.
I'm going to expose myself, I'mgoing to touch the door handle.
And then response prevention,the RP.
I'm going to prevent my typicalresponse.
My typical response is to thengo wash my hands.
(27:57):
So I'm not going to do that.
So I'm going to touch thedoorknob, touch the door handle,
have my hand dirty and I'm notgoing to wash my hands and even,
maybe, to make it a touchharder but more immersive, I'm
going to take that dirty handand touch my other hand and
touch my clothes and touch myface and lick it.
(28:21):
Maybe you know that would beharder, but we would start slow
and we work our way up.
That's kind of how you do it.
You start with something easy,you feel good with that and then
you work your way up, Kind oflike when you ride a bike you
don't start on a huge hill right, you start in a parking lot.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Um, so, simplifying it, that's what ERP is, I have
to tell you this, the first.
One of the first times in earlyin my career.
One of the first times early inmy career, I had a, a, a young
kid that was afraid of bugs somuch so it turned into
(29:00):
agoraphobia.
Wow, and I was like, okay, I'mgoing to give this a shot and
we're going to figure this out.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And, um, I was very clear with the family that this
is where we're going to try this.
Yeah, and we started off byjust talking about bugs.
We moved to looking at picturesof bugs, then we moved to
watching videos about bugs.
Then we moved to I brought insome fake bugs, some plastic
(29:32):
bugs, and then we mixed in somebugs that were fake, that
wiggled, and on the last day Ithought my landlord was going to
kill me.
But on the last day I brought abag of crickets, yeah, and we
went outside, because we don'tdo this inside.
We went outside and the thatkid held the bag with the live
(29:53):
crickets in it Awesome.
And then he was so like he justwanted to flex at this point
and his dad was there.
It was the sweetest thing.
That's awesome.
He rips open the bags and likestarts letting the crickets jump
around on his hands Wow.
Yeah, and it's like that's,that's exposure.
Right, yeah, that's exposure,yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And exactly how they do it with OCD of start slow or
start small, work your way up.
And what's neat is like you'resaying, people start learning,
hang on, I can do this Like I'mstronger than I realized.
And so that's really again toyour earlier question of why did
(30:37):
I, you know, get into this?
I love seeing that it's so cool.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I mean the dad who was like I don't know.
I felt like he was like sevenfeet tall.
He's probably like truly likesix, seven, six, eight.
He was enormous.
I mean he just sat there.
He just sat there, wept andheld his kid and like he came
and grabbed me like right,jumped up and down and shook me
around, right.
(31:02):
It was like high fives allaround, yeah and then that
little dude was no longer afraidto go outside, got his life
back yeah, got his life and I Ilearned later that dad was like
now he's obsessed with bugs.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
He was like you did it too well yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
But I'm not saying that's the case for everybody.
That people who get through thetheir their contamination fear
is that they're going to goaround then licking bathroom
floors, so yeah.
Or that they go into wastemanagement per se Right, but
there is that sense of beingable to be freed from that fear
and just kind of move about theworld.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, um right, normally, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So, so walk us through then how that looks for
the pure obsession.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah.
Um where I would, where I wouldstart?
Um, two questions that I'velearned that are super helpful,
and even if a person's listeningto this right now who does have
Puro, I would start with thesetwo questions.
One, what can I not do becauseof my obsession?
(32:12):
Yeah, I love that.
And then what are my triggers?
Because of my obsession, whenwhere is the obsession?
Where does the fear gettriggered?
You're probably going to getsimilar answers between those
two questions, but you might getslightly different, so that's
helpful.
You get kind of some layersthere.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So an example might be when I walk into a religious
establishment of my choosing,let's just say it's a Christian
faith.
And they walk into a religiousestablishment of my choosing,
let's just say it's a christianfaith.
And they walk into a church.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, walking into the church is where that gets
triggered yeah, that would bethe answer to one of it gets
triggered when I go to church.
Um and um, the, so theobsession gets triggered when
they walk in church.
The compulsion so it's notactually Puro Right.
(33:03):
The compulsion maybe for oneperson is I now have to pray
this special prayer to make surethat God forgives me of all my
sins before I sit down for theservice or take communion.
I got to be sure that I'm notangry with my brother, and so
(33:28):
the compulsive prayer might be Isay God forgive me seven times.
Seven is kind of a completenumber.
(33:57):
I've made up this kind ofmagical thinking that I have to
say it seven times and I say God, please forgive me, god, please
forgive me, god, please forgiveme Seven times in my head.
So that would be the compulsionbased on the obsession.
So do you want me to tell youthen how you would do exposure
on that?
Yeah, so one the question whatcan I not do?
It may be like for some people Ican't go to church anymore or I
(34:21):
can't.
Maybe there's some sort ofspecial rule, like I can't sit
near the front or I have towatch it online, but I can't, I
can't attend and I can't takecommunion, okay.
So what erp would be?
Exposure response prevention is, um, I think of it as okay.
(34:44):
You've got OCD, as this likeexternal force has come up with
all these rules and you now haveto follow these rules.
So ERP is I'm going to fightback, I'm going to say, no, I'm
not doing these rules and I'mgoing to do it wrong.
(35:04):
So for one person it may be youknow, I'm going to go to church
, maybe dress a little bit morecasual, that might hit on it a
little bit.
And then I'm not going to sayGod forgive me seven times.
(35:24):
And not only would I not sayGod forgive me seven times, I
would think with the person howcould we do that wrong?
And it may be something likeGod, if I have a sin that I
forgot, that you haven'tforgiven me of, hopefully you
(35:46):
don't strike me down right now,kind of being sarcastic, a
little bit playful with it, andthat touches on something we may
get into is about uncertainty,yes, but so ERP again to
summarize is not saying theseven God forgive me rule and
(36:11):
then figuring out a way howcould I do that wrong?
I do that wrong.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
So let's go through then the that's in the
scrupulosity or the religiousarea, because we're not going to
say to somebody go ahead, be apedophile, Like because again
we're not saying in the in thereligious piece, we'll just go
ahead and you know, behave howyou want.
So how then?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
what's a walk us through what it looks like in
the the, the, the violence, andthen the sexual, so the violent
one could be again.
Ask yourself these questionswhat can I not do?
Or where is this obsessiontriggered?
I can't cook anymore.
(36:57):
Or when I cook it getstriggered.
Okay, because when I cook Ihave to cut vegetables, and if
I'm cutting vegetables I'mholding a knife and I'm scared
that I'm going to take thatknife and stab the person next
to me.
So exposure would be cook andget a big knife and cut those
(37:20):
vegetables, and so I'm exposingmyself by holding a knife and
the response prevention isessentially the typical response
would just be don't cook.
So you're kind of getting themboth right there, um, but that
would be the, that would be theexposure.
(37:42):
Cook, or if that, that might bea little bit harder because
you're holding a sharp knife.
So you could maybe start withum, carry around like a little
pocket knife in your pocket andhave a pocket knife Because the
fear is I might go crazy andstab somebody, or am I a violent
(38:07):
person and so I can't?
Like you're the kid who had thefear of bugs, he starts closing
himself in, right.
So the same thing with violence.
I start closing myself in cause, I'm, I'm dangerous.
So exposure is?
I'm going to start openingmyself up and start taking some
(38:27):
risk and being around things orsituations that I typically
couldn't do.
Um, and I oftentimes see itaround knives, um, and so it'd
be gradually exposing to that.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Have you ever, have you personally ever used like a
fake knife, like a rubber knife,like a toy knife?
Just so that there's that?
Okay, it, it's there, yeah, andyou're having where it's that.
That is there, but it's not um,it's more gradual, right.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, I haven't , but I love the idea.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
And someone totally could, that would work the thing
that I have seen.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I saw one time in my career where a kid had a fear
and there was a therapist thatthey were working with that did
the, that did exposure, the ERP,and it was almost like it was
almost like a person who hasn'tseen the sun in a while, Like
(39:34):
they've been indoors maybe workthe night shift and they just
aren't exposed to the sun, andlike they were encouraged to go
sit in the sun without sunscreenfor two hours.
Yeah, it's like, of course theycame back at crispy critter,
right, right, of course they gota sunburn, figuratively
speaking, but it was almost likethey were overexposed and they
didn't have the, the, the, yeah,the.
(39:55):
What am I trying to?
Say I keep wanting to say theydidn't have the, the, the, yeah,
bound, the.
What am I trying to say?
I keep wanting to say theydidn't have a yeah they weren't.
They weren't tooled up, yeah Toto deal with that exposure, yeah
, yeah, and I, I just I want toput that out there.
I know you have known you formany years.
I think you are clinically likeexceptional, excellent, and I
(40:19):
know you don't do that becauseyou, you tool the person up, you
, you give them all theresources that they need to to
be exposed to these things.
I just want to put that outthere that, like, watch out for
that, because you know whoever'streating you for these types of
things needs that.
You need to be aware, like, youhave to go at a pace now.
(40:42):
Yes, you have to push yourself,but you have to go at a pace
that you know is sustainable foryou, that you have the
resources to cope with.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Again, I think of riding a bike.
Again I think of riding a bike.
If you took a person on a huge,big hill in a busy neighborhood
with tons of cross streets,that's going to freak them out,
though they won't want to ride abike again, and so, um, very
(41:11):
not ideal for an exposure tostart out way too hard, because
again, the goal is I can do this, I'm stronger than I thought,
and even start learning.
Uh, I'm probably not going todo that Right, and if you start
too hard, too fast, it can turna person off and they're like I
(41:37):
am never doing that again.
So you do have to start slowand small, and sometimes you
have to get creative of what isslow and small like you said, a
rubber knife but if you're withsomeone who's trained in it,
they should be able to knowwhat's something smaller.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
That's something that I've always appreciated about
you, brandon, clinically is isthat, at the end of the day, the
person that you're treating isreally at the core of what
you're doing?
Yeah, like we're never going tooverlook you.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
We don't want to be like we have this and we're
going to put this on you andyou're a lab rat.
I'm going to just do this thingon you, right?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I don't want to do that.
No, I know you don't.
And then can you give uh, thisis like you said.
(43:02):
This is a.
This is maybe PG, but it'ssomething we got to.
I want to talk about 13.
Yeah, 13.
Um, maybe NC 17 kidding, I'mkidding, it can be that whole
space of the sexual part of it,because you want to talk about
shame.
You know, like I've, I'veworked with folks who struggle
with this kind of a thing andwith that sexual piece, and it's
shame on top of shame, on topof pain, on top of fear.
It's tender, very, yeah, yeah.
Ask yourself the question whatcan I not do?
Where am I triggered?
So the pedophile one and I'mgoing to step out of this for
just one second of two when Imeet with people and they've got
(43:24):
that obsession, because thatone is, it really can undo
somebody and this regulatessomebody.
Is education is also important,of like, hey, a lot of people
deal with this, mm-hmm.
Look, here's a book and there'sa whole book on it, or there's
(43:44):
a whole chapter on this.
You are not the only one.
You are not crazy.
You may not believe me rightnow, but I promise you there are
other people who are dealingwith this.
So I think that's an importantplace to start, kind of like you
said that would be a resourceis just starting to realize.
(44:05):
Okay, this has a name.
It's called OCD.
Ocd isn't always just germs.
There are some people who havethese types of obsessions that
you can't see I'm not the onlyone like that's important, um,
but then the actual exposure maybe, um, uh, one that would
(44:31):
probably be a little bit harder.
But is, what can I not do?
Well, I can't be around kids,right?
So then it's figuring out okay,walk past a preschool or go to
a park and be by some kids orplay with your niece or nephew
or play with your son, um,wrestle with him.
(44:55):
That might be a little bitharder, but it's, it's not cruel
things that exposure would be.
It's like let's get you back toyour life so that you can enjoy
your kids or enjoy this.
Maybe you know I used tovolunteer at Sunday school and
(45:16):
now I can't do it anymore.
Like, right, let's get you backto that, back to those values,
and, and so it will be exposing,pushing into that, but again at
a gradual level.
So that would be an example, oreven um, as we've talked about
thoughts, so getting used to thethoughts, um, because we're
(45:40):
talking about this right now andwe don't have OCD, we can hear
it and we're not gettingdysregulated, but a person with
OCD, if they even just heard theword pedophile- that's a
trigger, that would be a triggerlike that question.
Where is it triggered?
So it may be writing that worddown a hundred times, or writing
(46:06):
it on a note card and carryingit around while you're at home,
or even putting up some likepost-it notes around your house.
That's just to trigger thatword and so it's getting used to
that word.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Right, it's again.
It's that exposure to the thingthat I am fearful of.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, and getting starting to habituate to it,
starting to get used to it, andfor it to feel like a thought,
like any other thought, right?
And again, what I let them knowis all of us have these
thoughts.
We all have some weird thoughts, Right?
Not everyone's talking about it, but we do.
Your OCD is latching onto it,and so we've got to figure out
(46:51):
how to more.
So let it be there.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
And so these exposures help do that they do,
and it's somebody gave me theanalogy a long time ago that
it's like the, like thegatekeeper of your, of your
brain.
Let's say, like in the old days, you know, the the president of
the company had a secretarythat always sat out at his, you
know, sat out in front of hisoffice and and gate kept who got
to come into the CEO's office.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
And what?
For whatever reason thatsecretary, that gatekeeper for
OCD is, is gone, either gone tolunch was fired, left the job
whatever.
And so all the thoughts come tothe CEO.
Well, all the everything comesto the CEO and it's like I can't
manage all of this and I haveto run it all down because my
(47:45):
job is to manage everything when, in reality, the gatekeeper of
the thoughts walked away and Iliken it to your front door was
taken off, so everything comesin and you have to deal with
everything that comes in.
Yeah, and what you're talkingabout is putting the front door
(48:05):
back on, rehiring the gatekeeperto keep those thoughts from
making permanent residence inyour brain as opposed to saying,
oh, I'm sorry, the CEO is busy,they can't entertain this
thought.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Right, right, yeah, I um another analogy I use um
someone uh I worked with showedme and I love it, so I use it as
the really old school Disneycartoon with briar rabbit.
Oh yeah, um, and there's a scene, and with briar rabbit, where
(48:41):
there's the tar baby and the thebriar rabbit walks by the tar
baby and then punches it andthen gets, you know, he's got
one fist stuck in it.
And then he gets his other fiststuck in it, and then his foot
is in it, and then the other one, and before he knows he's all
tangled up in it.
Yeah, covered in tar, coveredit, covered in tar.
(49:02):
And that's when, when we try tonot have a thought or make a
thought go away right.
That's when we start gettingstuck in the thought.
So the exposures help supportthat new attitude of dealing
with thoughts, of let them bethere, cause you have a million
(49:26):
thoughts a day, um, and just letthem come and go burst that.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
I love that analogy.
Yeah, it's a good one, I likeit.
I often use that with peoplewho don't have OCD but who are
avoiding their emotions and theydon't.
They won't feel things Uh-huh,and why can't it stop?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Exactly, yeah, it carries over, right For sure
it's an overall principle, Iwould say Right, and the keeping
it simple is it's a principleof approach Keep approaching,
don't avoid, because the bigcompulsion with pure o is
avoidance and and that is abehavior.
(50:15):
So it's approach, approach,approach, um, and and then now
you, now it feels a little bitmore manageable yeah, okay, I
just need to approach slowly butsurely approach.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
That, yeah, and the idea feels simple, right, but
it's certainly not easy, no, andso definitely not I.
You know, brandon, one of thethings again that I really
appreciate about who you are asa clinician is that you always
keep people at the core of whatyou're doing.
Yeah, you always keep theperson that you're treating at
(50:50):
the core of how you see them,and I think that that is that's
so key.
It's like walking through thiswith somebody approaching
something may take time, butit's like you're not going
anywhere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have time.
Go at your pace, and I thinkit's important for us to impress
(51:10):
upon people listening, like ifthis is you and you're not in
the Dallas Fort Worth area andyou can't come see Brandon, then
it's finding somebody who iswilling and able to go at your
pace, to not expose you to thesun in a way that is just too
much yeah, going to leave youred and crispy.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Right, yeah, cause it's really hard.
So you want someone you canfeel comfortable and trust with
to walk alongside you as you doit.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, brandon, thanks forcoming in this today and for us
to lay this stuff out there andI hope that people walk away
with the fact that there is hope.
Yes, there absolutely is not athought death sentence.
No where you have to pull backfrom your whole life, and I love
(52:01):
your messages approach so thatyou get your full life back, yep
, so that you have theopportunity to celebrate that
restored freedom.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yep, yep, so that's it.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
I love it Cool.
Thanks, man.
I'm especially excited to introduce today's
topic because chances are youknow someone who struggles with
it.
It's called pure O OCD, andit's often misunderstood, but it
impacts many more people thanyou might realize.
To help us unpack this topic,I'm joined by Brandon Stewart,
licensed professional counselor.
(00:23):
He's a therapist here atorationand the head of our OCD program
.
Brandon leads both our supportgroup and our Breaking Free
program and he brings years ofexperience helping people
navigate OCD in all of its formsTogether.
We'll talk about what Pure Oreally is, the misconceptions
(00:47):
around it and the practical waysto break free and show up more
fully in life.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Early on in my career I had a client who had OCD, you
know, bought a book on it andthen just found it really
interesting.
Um, I thought it was uh, oddlyit was fun what do you love
about it?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
What made it fun to you?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I thought it was cool of the therapy is actually
fairly straightforward.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
And it just made sense to me.
It clicked for straightforward,yeah, and it just made sense to
me.
It clicked for me, yeah, and sothat was cool.
And then when I wasimplementing the treatment, it
worked and people got better andthat's so rewarding, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
People like.
If people come to our house fordinner, you know I like to do
the dishes and people are likeyou do, like, yes, most of what
we do we don't get to see adirect resolution.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It gets better.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, it's like doing the dishes or cutting the grass
or like doing something thathas a very, very defined
beginning and end and you cansee the result is kind of a nice
.
That's satisfying.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm wondering if it's, if, ifworking with OCD was sort of
like that for you where you feltlike there was a defined yeah
Process, there was a definedprocess of, like you're saying,
of also like working with aclient who maybe had a traumatic
(02:34):
childhood and they want to workthrough that and figure out new
ways to relate to people.
Or they're you know, they'remarried and it's coming out and
that's a.
I really enjoy that.
But that's, you know, it's alittle bit more nebulous, Isn't
quite the right word, but it's alittle obscure, it's gradual,
it's obscure.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Yeah, people ask me from time to time do you believe
people can change?
And I'm like, well, yes, right,we wouldn't be in this field,
right, but they.
But I also believe that Ialways draw a scale on my
whiteboard and I say there's atthe zero, is in the middle,
there's a negative number outhere and then there's an
(03:16):
equivalent positive number onthe other side.
That if you have somebodythat's like, say, at a negative
75, if they move 25 spaces tothe negative 50, like that's
huge, right.
But the reason why people feellike nobody changes is because
there's still a negative infront of that number.
Yeah, our perception is is thata person's going to go from
(03:37):
negative 75 all the way to thepositive 75.
Yeah, and that'd be a miraclefrom God.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Right, it doesn't always work that way, right,
(04:06):
yeah, and that'd be a miraclefrom God, right, it doesn't
always work that way, right,usually doesn't, yeah.
And so, watching people change,where you can graph it, yeah,
they were also just feeling lessanxious, less triggered, yeah,
and again, you could graph thatand then they could see that and
right, you know, uh, that's fun.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And so OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder and a lot
of people and we've talked aboutthis before you and I that a
lot of people say likecolloquially oh, I have OCD
because they like things acertain way.
Right, and we know that it'snot a clinical OCD, right, they
may have the little bit of the Omaybe a little bit of the C,
but they don't have the D Right,and so you, you, you're.
(04:41):
You're bringing up today thatwhole idea of the the pure O OCD
.
Can you kind of give us alittle background of what that
is or what that means?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah.
So the funny thing is it's abit of a misnomer in that they
used to think someone who hadOCD this subtype was purely
obsessional, meaning they onlyhad obsessions and no
(05:11):
compulsions.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So break that down for us.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
I'll break that down of how I think of it is the
obsession, is the fear.
It is the obsession is the fear, um, and then the compulsion is
the behavior, the thing that Ido to reduce the fear or prevent
the feared outcome.
Okay, so, um, I'm going to movethis back a little bit.
(05:40):
Um, the classic example, theeasiest one to think of, is
germs, right, so I have anobsession with germs.
I have a fear that, um, I'llget germs on my hand and I'll
become sick, maybe get a stomachbug.
So that's my obsession the fearis getting a stomach bug.
(06:03):
The compulsion is washing myhands, and so I wash my hands,
or I avoid touching things, Iavoid going to public places,
avoid people who look likethey're sick, you name it.
And those are all compulsions,it and those are all compulsions
(06:30):
.
So, for the pure O folks, theyused to think they don't have
any compulsions, they're justthinking.
It's just all in their head andso visually you'll never see an
external compulsion.
But that actually is not true.
Um, and that's kind of thetricky thing about Puro that I
thought would be good to talkabout.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, so the, the so, just so that I'm making sure
that I'm hearing you, right?
Yeah, there's like, let's say,if I'm obsessed with germs but I
don't have something that, oror the obsessed like have this,
this desire not to get sick but,I, don't have a hand washing
(07:10):
ritual or I don't necessarilyavoid places where people are
sick.
I just sit in that ruminationof I might get sicker, I might
get sicker, I might get sickerRight, is that what you're
describing?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yes, though the only thing I would change is
typically a person.
If we're talking about a personwho is worried about germs or
contamination, I would say theyalways have the compulsion with
it.
The compulsion, the overt one,that you're going to see.
(07:49):
So there's the pure O.
People have more specificobsessions that are not
contamination related, right,usually.
So what example?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
would you use Like what?
What do you see?
Because, I'm assuming thatthese are folks that you see,
yes, and so what do you see Like?
What are the themes that you?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
see the big themes are and this is a little bit
PG-13, if you will, but the bigthemes are usually violence,
sexual, religious and thensometimes neutral, which we
(08:24):
could get into as well.
That one can be kind ofconfusing, but the big themes
are usually violent, sexual,religious.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
So could you give me an example of those three is a
person.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
their obsession, their fear is what if one day I
snap and I go crazy and kill mykids or kill somebody or just
(09:01):
run amok and just do wild, crazy, embarrassing things?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So that would be the obsession, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Um so, like that movie with Kurt Douglas, where
he just has enough and he walksaround with guns and starts
acting like he's going to, orthreatening to, shoot everything
.
Yes, that's that thought.
They carry that.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, they would.
I haven't seen that movie, buta person with that obsession,
would hate that movie.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
They would not want to see I'm date stamping myself
because it's an old movie, butyeah, it's out there yeah, so
that that whole, the whole kurtdouglas movie, that part of it
would be um an example of maybe,what's going on inside their
head.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yes, Freaked out that they might do that Right.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
And become violent.
Right Be it again.
Kill somebody, attack somebody,hurt somebody, grope somebody.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Okay, so now we're moving to the sexual piece.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, that kind of moves into the sexual piece, but
it's.
You know, am I a violent person?
Am I capable of violence?
Would I do something like that?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
and, to be clear, it's not that there is, it's not
that there's the desire to dothat it's the fear exactly, yeah
(10:35):
, they have no desire to do that.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Um, they're the nicest people, you know.
They're the safest people,Right?
So they're not.
You know, if you were assessingthis person or diagnosing them,
you wouldn't be diagnosing themof?
Oh?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
they're a threat to others.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And they've got this personality disorder.
We need to watch out for them.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
It's almost like they're trying to protect the
world from themselves.
Yes, and they're trying toprotect the world from their
thought.
Yeah, yeah, that fearfulthemselves.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And they're trying to protect the world's the world
from their thought.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, yeah that that fearful thought.
Yes, not that.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I want to do this.
I want to protect the worldagainst it.
I don't want to do it, butthere's some outside force that
I'm afraid that is going to push.
I'm going to be compelled to doit.
Yeah.
And that's the fear.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, Usually it starts with I mean, when you
think about it, all of us havedark thoughts.
Everybody has weird out ofpocket thoughts that they don't
know why they just thought of it, but they do, um, and one
example I've heard before is um,this, this becomes dark, but
(11:48):
that's just the nature of it, ofa person holds a little baby
and they're like, oh my gosh,they're just like so tiny,
they're so fragile, and partlywhat they're not saying is like
if I dropped the baby, the babywould get really hurt, right, um
(12:09):
, and a person without OCD couldhave that thought and not think
much of that thought.
It's just the overall idea thata baby is fragile, right, and I
, you know it's life is in myhands right now.
A person with OCD who isstruggling with pure O or this
could maybe be the start of itis they have that same thought
(12:32):
that everybody else has, butthat thought they then latch on
to and become very fearful of ohmy gosh, why did I have that
thought?
Speaker 1 (12:46):
That's right.
It's the rabbit trailing ofchasing down the why.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, yeah.
What does this mean about me?
Right that I'm thinking aboutthis, or I had that image in my
head.
What does that mean about me?
Do I want to do that?
And the rabbit?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
hole right and assigning meaning to a thought.
And I always tell people youcannot control who knocks on
your door, but you can certainlycontrol who comes into your
home.
Yeah, and we have, like yousaid.
I'm so glad you said that wehave thoughts that fly around
and they don't make sense, Right, and if you start trying to
(13:26):
make sense of it, it might driveyou crazy.
Yes, Not not literally, but itmight, yeah, yeah.
And it's when we step back andand and say that's a thought,
I'm not letting it in, butanyway.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I don't want to get into too much of that.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, but so that's the violent, so it's, but so
that's the violent, so it's.
My fear is the, the, the Puro,being pure obsession, right, and
so it's that thought of like,oh my gosh, I don't want to end
up doing something negative.
I need to protect the worldfrom my thoughts.
Yeah, my thoughts are I may endup running amok.
I love that, and so I don'twant to run amok.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
And so that's where the loop happens, for them, yeah
, and a person could be thinkingabout that and you would never
know, right, and that's wherethe Puro, where they first
called it that, because it was Idon't see you washing your
hands.
I don't see you checking thelock.
I don't see you checking thelock.
(14:23):
I don't visually see anything,but yet they are in their head
being tortured by that fear andby that thought, right, um, and
they are still doing compulsions.
It's just sneaky.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Yeah, they're internal.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, potentially they're internal, but they
actually can also be external,right Too.
Yeah, nice, okay, and so thenthe yeah, potentially they're
internal, but they actually canalso be external right too.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah, nice, okay, and so then the a sexual example of
that would be, like you said.
I'm afraid I'm gonna gropesomeone.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, it's very similar to the violent, just you
know like, am I a predator?
Am I a pedophile?
Do I want to commit bestiality?
Or it can be kind of on a lowerlevel.
Those would be.
Those are some more.
That's violent also in natureRight Violent with a sexual
(15:24):
twist yeah.
But they can also be, um, like,a spouse is worried.
Do I want to cheat on my wife,Um, or am I attracted to her?
Am I more attracted to thisperson?
What does this mean?
That I'm attracted to thisother person?
Um, and there's also one wherea person starts doubting their
(15:46):
sexuality of, uh, you know aperson who very much is straight
, very much is attracted to theopposite sex, but then starts to
worry am I gay?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Um, so those are kind of usually the big themes
within the sexual obsessions Icould see that being a real
struggle, because let's go backto the one where you're a
married person and you're you'reobsessing over.
Am I going to be faithful?
Yeah, and the shame associatedwith that and the fear
(16:21):
associated with that and the ohmy gosh.
What does this mean about me asa?
Oh my gosh.
What does this mean about me asa like, characterologically?
What does this mean about me asa human being?
Yeah, what does this mean aboutour marriage?
And I can see that ballooningor mushrooming into something
that's really catastrophic intheir mind yes, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
(16:41):
And the other one was, you said, religious, that's the third.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Religious, yeah, yeah .
And the other one was you saidreligious, that's the third
Religious, yeah.
Some people have maybe heardthis as scrupulosity, all sorts
of doubts or fears about theirfaith.
Do I love God, do I really loveGod?
Or do I truly believe in this?
(17:04):
Do I truly have faith?
Um, or you know, there's thatone verse about, uh, blaspheming
the Holy spirit.
Like, have I done that?
(17:24):
Do I want to do that?
Would I do that?
Um, a lot of doubting about sin, being perfectionistic, my
motivations or having kind ofritualized prayers or ritualized
.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Like practices.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah, yeah, reading the Bible and then again the
sexual piece can sneak in heretoo, of seeing God or Jesus in a
sexual way that they don't wantto.
But those images pop in theirhead and oh my gosh, why am I
(18:00):
having this thought?
So it can also become likeintrusive images, where they
intrude, Like you're saying.
This thought knocks on theirdoor and maybe they don't let
them in, but they go outside andstart wrestling with that
thought is kind of how I thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, in the theme that I see here, as you're
describing it, it's like how doyou prove a negative?
Yeah Right.
It's like how do you prove anegative?
Yeah Right.
It's like how do I prove to you, to myself, or whatever, that
I'm not going to do somethingbecause it's and I will get into
the neutral here.
But it's like how do I provethat I didn't lie, that I didn't
(18:42):
think that or that that thoughtright?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
yes, so it becomes real heady and really confusing,
sure quickly super entrenched.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, I've seen people who have experienced
especially the scrupulosity partand it is it's so, and it is
it's so.
It's so intense for thembecause they believe that it's a
life or death sort of thing.
Yeah, and it is so weighty forthem to walk through.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Like I'm going to hell.
Right, I'm about to faceeternal damnation, right.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And it's in, in walking, with the weight of that
and then what it does, like asit ripples out into their, to
their family, their spouse,their family, their community,
and it's like that heavy weightis fully there, right, and so
it's.
You think about how just thetoll it takes on them.
(19:43):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
But there's hope, there is hope, there is hope.
And what you were saying justright then, um, is we lead a
(20:08):
free support group or offer afree?
Can sometimes be characterizedas like cute, funny quirky, but
like, as far as mental illnessgoes, like you know it's cute,
it's funny and it's a littleinvalidating.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I'm guessing to them yes, very, it's cute, it's funny
and it's a little invalidating.
I'm guessing to them yes.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Very much so.
Yeah, very much so.
Um, because, like you werepointing out, um, if someone, if
someone was scared that theywere going to be a pedophile or
like, would do something likethat, and really were wrestling
with that and getting confusedby that thought, that's
(20:50):
terrifying.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, and where?
Where could you go in societyand and to an untrained person
and say I'm worried I'm going tobe a pedophile?
It's like I don't want to endup in prison, but do I belong
there?
Should I say something likelike all of the working out of
that thought as well, that could.
(21:11):
That creates weight and painand torment.
Yes, yes.
It's unreal, yeah, like I couldimagine, you know, when people
say, oh yeah, that's just my OCD, and, like you said, it's cute
and it's it's yeah, that's justwhat I do, right, and it's like
you're orderly and maybe you'retype a, but that's not OCD.
(21:35):
No, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
No, it's not, yeah, a yeah, but that's not ocd.
No, yeah, no, it's not, yeah.
And, like you said, it can bevery lonely and isolating of hey
, how was your week?
Oh, it was pretty stressful, oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh well, my, you know, money'sa little tight.
Oh, okay, cool.
Yeah, I'm scared that I'm goingto hurt my kid like whoa.
That's different and and theuntrained person is not always
(22:02):
going to know what to do withthat.
So it's right, and they hold onto it, dialing cps like I think
my co-worker right and it'slike no, that's not it at all.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
And then, and then to the untrained person, it's like
okay, but then there are peoplewho you do have to be on on
guard, or like you have tolisten, like, hey, I'm, I'm
afraid I'm going to hurt my kid,I kind of cause I just did and
that's a whole differentconversation.
A whole different conversation,yeah, and there's that as I, as
(22:33):
I've seen it, as I, you andI've talked before, it's like
that's their fear.
Right, that's a part of theirfear.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, yeah, and and that you brought up a good point
too as far as, like historygoes, like you said, of I'm
worried I'm going to hurt my kidand cause last week I got
really angry and I did right.
These it's.
They have no history of that,they have no desire for that.
(23:02):
It's the scariest, most awfulthing that they could think of,
and so, based on that, thathelps diagnose and yeah, and it
helps us be like all of us inthe community.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Be aware, right, right, because I will say from
my perspective, the people thatI see in life, either in my
practice or in life, who havethis, the pure, that pure
obsession, they are some of themost gentle, kind, loving, like
(23:37):
you want them to be your bestfriend, because they are
genuinely like the greatestpeople and you look at them and
you're like, oh my gosh, you'relovely, you would not hurt a fly
.
And then you find that they're,you know, struggling with that
obsession, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Yeah, so tough, but there's hope.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
There is hope.
I want to keep drilling, yeah,and it's like yeah this is big,
it's, it's overwhelming for them, heavy, and yet there's hope.
Yes, yeah, there.
What's the hope?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well, the hope is is that um, cognitive behavioral
therapy, slash exposure responseprevention works?
I mean, there's a lot ofresearch behind that, decades
worth of it, right?
And while the germ OCD is for aperson, maybe untrained is
(24:36):
easier to conceptualize of likeoh yeah, okay, I could see how.
I mean, even I can see it, it'stangible.
So I could see maybe, how wecould work on that, right.
And so some people might think,well, it's all in my head, how
do I work?
Speaker 1 (24:53):
on that Right, because I can't stop washing my
hands.
Yeah, I can't expose myself tosaying, okay, I just touched
something and now I'm going togo a period of time without,
without cleansing myself.
So yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, youcan.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
You can do that, you can see that Um, but the the big
point is CBbt and exposureresponse prevention still works
on puro.
It's actually no different andit works on both.
Um, it maybe is just notimmediately as understandable,
(25:34):
but it does.
It does the same thing.
So I should probably say whatexposure and response prevention
is.
Um, so people have an idea.
Um, it's funny.
I went to a uh a trainingrecently put on by the
international OCD foundation andthe guy who led it, super smart
guy, um, psychologist EricStorch.
(25:57):
He's done a lot of research onOCD and works out of the Baylor
College of Medicine in Houston.
But he said several times hewas like remember the acronym
KISS, keep it simple, stupid.
He was like yeah it's, don'tovercomplicate it, which I
appreciated.
(26:17):
So, yeah it's, it's not overlycomplicated, and I think when I
say it, people are like oh yeahthat makes sense.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Okay, I'm going to just pause you there for a
second because I think that thatwhole I've always heard the
keep it simple, sweetheart.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
I've heard the stupid and I like that but.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
But I love the keep it simple because I think all
too often, like, what we'retalking about is complex and the
way that the mind grabs it andwhat it does with it, it feels
complex for the partners or thespouses or the family members
that are dealing with it or thatlive amongst that.
Right, I've spoken with so manypeople who have a family member
(27:09):
, a partner, a loved one thatdeal with this and it feels
overwhelming and complex.
So keeping it simple, I think,is a really big, huge part of
this.
So, yeah, keeping it simple,yes, I think is a really big,
like huge part of this.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's excellent.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Let's not get too lost in it, and we'll just break
it down and make it very clearso again, I'll use germs,
because that's the easiest placeto start.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I'm going to expose myself to a thing I fear.
So a bathroom door handle.
I'm going to expose myself, I'mgoing to touch the door handle.
And then response prevention,the RP.
I'm going to prevent my typicalresponse.
My typical response is to thengo wash my hands.
(27:57):
So I'm not going to do that.
So I'm going to touch thedoorknob, touch the door handle,
have my hand dirty and I'm notgoing to wash my hands and even,
maybe, to make it a touchharder but more immersive, I'm
going to take that dirty handand touch my other hand and
touch my clothes and touch myface and lick it.
(28:21):
Maybe you know that would beharder, but we would start slow
and we work our way up.
That's kind of how you do it.
You start with something easy,you feel good with that and then
you work your way up, Kind oflike when you ride a bike you
don't start on a huge hill right, you start in a parking lot.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Um, so, simplifying it, that's what ERP is, I have
to tell you this, the first.
One of the first times in earlyin my career.
One of the first times early inmy career, I had a, a, a young
kid that was afraid of bugs somuch so it turned into
(29:00):
agoraphobia.
Wow, and I was like, okay, I'mgoing to give this a shot and
we're going to figure this out.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And, um, I was very clear with the family that this
is where we're going to try this.
Yeah, and we started off byjust talking about bugs.
We moved to looking at picturesof bugs, then we moved to
watching videos about bugs.
Then we moved to I brought insome fake bugs, some plastic
(29:32):
bugs, and then we mixed in somebugs that were fake, that
wiggled, and on the last day Ithought my landlord was going to
kill me.
But on the last day I brought abag of crickets, yeah, and we
went outside, because we don'tdo this inside.
We went outside and the thatkid held the bag with the live
(29:53):
crickets in it Awesome.
And then he was so like he justwanted to flex at this point
and his dad was there.
It was the sweetest thing.
That's awesome.
He rips open the bags and likestarts letting the crickets jump
around on his hands Wow.
Yeah, and it's like that's,that's exposure.
Right, yeah, that's exposure,yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
And exactly how they do it with OCD of start slow or
start small, work your way up.
And what's neat is like you'resaying, people start learning,
hang on, I can do this Like I'mstronger than I realized.
And so that's really again toyour earlier question of why did
(30:37):
I, you know, get into this?
I love seeing that it's so cool.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I mean the dad who was like I don't know.
I felt like he was like sevenfeet tall.
He's probably like truly likesix, seven, six, eight.
He was enormous.
I mean he just sat there.
He just sat there, wept andheld his kid and like he came
and grabbed me like right,jumped up and down and shook me
around, right.
(31:02):
It was like high fives allaround, yeah and then that
little dude was no longer afraidto go outside, got his life
back yeah, got his life and I Ilearned later that dad was like
now he's obsessed with bugs.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
He was like you did it too well yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
But I'm not saying that's the case for everybody.
That people who get through thetheir their contamination fear
is that they're going to goaround then licking bathroom
floors, so yeah.
Or that they go into wastemanagement per se Right, but
there is that sense of beingable to be freed from that fear
and just kind of move about theworld.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, um right, normally, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
So, so walk us through then how that looks for
the pure obsession.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah.
Um where I would, where I wouldstart?
Um, two questions that I'velearned that are super helpful,
and even if a person's listeningto this right now who does have
Puro, I would start with thesetwo questions.
One, what can I not do becauseof my obsession?
(32:12):
Yeah, I love that.
And then what are my triggers?
Because of my obsession, whenwhere is the obsession?
Where does the fear gettriggered?
You're probably going to getsimilar answers between those
two questions, but you might getslightly different, so that's
helpful.
You get kind of some layersthere.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So an example might be when I walk into a religious
establishment of my choosing,let's just say it's a Christian
faith.
And they walk into a religiousestablishment of my choosing,
let's just say it's a christianfaith.
And they walk into a church.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, walking into the church is where that gets
triggered yeah, that would bethe answer to one of it gets
triggered when I go to church.
Um and um, the, so theobsession gets triggered when
they walk in church.
The compulsion so it's notactually Puro Right.
(33:03):
The compulsion maybe for oneperson is I now have to pray
this special prayer to make surethat God forgives me of all my
sins before I sit down for theservice or take communion.
I got to be sure that I'm notangry with my brother, and so
(33:28):
the compulsive prayer might be Isay God forgive me seven times.
Seven is kind of a completenumber.
(33:57):
I've made up this kind ofmagical thinking that I have to
say it seven times and I say God, please forgive me, god, please
forgive me, god, please forgiveme Seven times in my head.
So that would be the compulsionbased on the obsession.
So do you want me to tell youthen how you would do exposure
on that?
Yeah, so one the question whatcan I not do?
It may be like for some people Ican't go to church anymore or I
(34:21):
can't.
Maybe there's some sort ofspecial rule, like I can't sit
near the front or I have towatch it online, but I can't, I
can't attend and I can't takecommunion, okay.
So what erp would be?
Exposure response prevention is, um, I think of it as okay.
(34:44):
You've got OCD, as this likeexternal force has come up with
all these rules and you now haveto follow these rules.
So ERP is I'm going to fightback, I'm going to say, no, I'm
not doing these rules and I'mgoing to do it wrong.
(35:04):
So for one person it may be youknow, I'm going to go to church
, maybe dress a little bit morecasual, that might hit on it a
little bit.
And then I'm not going to sayGod forgive me seven times.
(35:24):
And not only would I not sayGod forgive me seven times, I
would think with the person howcould we do that wrong?
And it may be something likeGod, if I have a sin that I
forgot, that you haven'tforgiven me of, hopefully you
(35:46):
don't strike me down right now,kind of being sarcastic, a
little bit playful with it, andthat touches on something we may
get into is about uncertainty,yes, but so ERP again to
summarize is not saying theseven God forgive me rule and
(36:11):
then figuring out a way howcould I do that wrong?
I do that wrong.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
So let's go through then the that's in the
scrupulosity or the religiousarea, because we're not going to
say to somebody go ahead, be apedophile, Like because again
we're not saying in the in thereligious piece, we'll just go
ahead and you know, behave howyou want.
So how then?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
what's a walk us through what it looks like in
the the, the, the violence, andthen the sexual, so the violent
one could be again.
Ask yourself these questionswhat can I not do?
Or where is this obsessiontriggered?
I can't cook anymore.
(36:57):
Or when I cook it getstriggered.
Okay, because when I cook Ihave to cut vegetables, and if
I'm cutting vegetables I'mholding a knife and I'm scared
that I'm going to take thatknife and stab the person next
to me.
So exposure would be cook andget a big knife and cut those
(37:20):
vegetables, and so I'm exposingmyself by holding a knife and
the response prevention isessentially the typical response
would just be don't cook.
So you're kind of getting themboth right there, um, but that
would be the, that would be theexposure.
(37:42):
Cook, or if that, that might bea little bit harder because
you're holding a sharp knife.
So you could maybe start withum, carry around like a little
pocket knife in your pocket andhave a pocket knife Because the
fear is I might go crazy andstab somebody, or am I a violent
(38:07):
person and so I can't?
Like you're the kid who had thefear of bugs, he starts closing
himself in, right.
So the same thing with violence.
I start closing myself in cause, I'm, I'm dangerous.
So exposure is?
I'm going to start openingmyself up and start taking some
(38:27):
risk and being around things orsituations that I typically
couldn't do.
Um, and I oftentimes see itaround knives, um, and so it'd
be gradually exposing to that.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Have you ever, have you personally ever used like a
fake knife, like a rubber knife,like a toy knife?
Just so that there's that?
Okay, it, it's there, yeah, andyou're having where it's that.
That is there, but it's not um,it's more gradual, right.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, I haven't , but I love the idea.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
And someone totally could, that would work the thing
that I have seen.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I saw one time in my career where a kid had a fear
and there was a therapist thatthey were working with that did
the, that did exposure, the ERP,and it was almost like it was
almost like a person who hasn'tseen the sun in a while, Like
(39:34):
they've been indoors maybe workthe night shift and they just
aren't exposed to the sun, andlike they were encouraged to go
sit in the sun without sunscreenfor two hours.
Yeah, it's like, of course theycame back at crispy critter,
right, right, of course they gota sunburn, figuratively
speaking, but it was almost likethey were overexposed and they
didn't have the, the, the, yeah,the.
(39:55):
What am I trying to?
Say I keep wanting to say theydidn't have the, the, the, yeah,
bound, the.
What am I trying to say?
I keep wanting to say theydidn't have a yeah they weren't.
They weren't tooled up, yeah Toto deal with that exposure, yeah
, yeah, and I, I just I want toput that out there.
I know you have known you formany years.
I think you are clinically likeexceptional, excellent, and I
(40:19):
know you don't do that becauseyou, you tool the person up, you
, you give them all theresources that they need to to
be exposed to these things.
I just want to put that outthere that, like, watch out for
that, because you know whoever'streating you for these types of
things needs that.
You need to be aware, like, youhave to go at a pace now.
(40:42):
Yes, you have to push yourself,but you have to go at a pace
that you know is sustainable foryou, that you have the
resources to cope with.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Again, I think of riding a bike.
Again I think of riding a bike.
If you took a person on a huge,big hill in a busy neighborhood
with tons of cross streets,that's going to freak them out,
though they won't want to ride abike again, and so, um, very
(41:11):
not ideal for an exposure tostart out way too hard, because
again, the goal is I can do this, I'm stronger than I thought,
and even start learning.
Uh, I'm probably not going todo that Right, and if you start
too hard, too fast, it can turna person off and they're like I
(41:37):
am never doing that again.
So you do have to start slowand small, and sometimes you
have to get creative of what isslow and small like you said, a
rubber knife but if you're withsomeone who's trained in it,
they should be able to knowwhat's something smaller.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
That's something that I've always appreciated about
you, brandon, clinically is isthat, at the end of the day, the
person that you're treating isreally at the core of what
you're doing?
Yeah, like we're never going tooverlook you.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
We don't want to be like we have this and we're
going to put this on you andyou're a lab rat.
I'm going to just do this thingon you, right?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I don't want to do that.
No, I know you don't.
And then can you give uh, thisis like you said.
(43:02):
This is a.
This is maybe PG, but it'ssomething we got to.
I want to talk about 13.
Yeah, 13.
Um, maybe NC 17 kidding, I'mkidding, it can be that whole
space of the sexual part of it,because you want to talk about
shame.
You know, like I've, I'veworked with folks who struggle
with this kind of a thing andwith that sexual piece, and it's
shame on top of shame, on topof pain, on top of fear.
It's tender, very, yeah, yeah.
Ask yourself the question whatcan I not do?
Where am I triggered?
So the pedophile one and I'mgoing to step out of this for
just one second of two when Imeet with people and they've got
(43:24):
that obsession, because thatone is, it really can undo
somebody and this regulatessomebody.
Is education is also important,of like, hey, a lot of people
deal with this, mm-hmm.
Look, here's a book and there'sa whole book on it, or there's
(43:44):
a whole chapter on this.
You are not the only one.
You are not crazy.
You may not believe me rightnow, but I promise you there are
other people who are dealingwith this.
So I think that's an importantplace to start, kind of like you
said that would be a resourceis just starting to realize.
(44:05):
Okay, this has a name.
It's called OCD.
Ocd isn't always just germs.
There are some people who havethese types of obsessions that
you can't see I'm not the onlyone like that's important, um,
but then the actual exposure maybe, um, uh, one that would
(44:31):
probably be a little bit harder.
But is, what can I not do?
Well, I can't be around kids,right?
So then it's figuring out okay,walk past a preschool or go to
a park and be by some kids orplay with your niece or nephew
or play with your son, um,wrestle with him.
(44:55):
That might be a little bitharder, but it's, it's not cruel
things that exposure would be.
It's like let's get you back toyour life so that you can enjoy
your kids or enjoy this.
Maybe you know I used tovolunteer at Sunday school and
(45:16):
now I can't do it anymore.
Like, right, let's get you backto that, back to those values,
and, and so it will be exposing,pushing into that, but again at
a gradual level.
So that would be an example, oreven um, as we've talked about
thoughts, so getting used to thethoughts, um, because we're
(45:40):
talking about this right now andwe don't have OCD, we can hear
it and we're not gettingdysregulated, but a person with
OCD, if they even just heard theword pedophile- that's a
trigger, that would be a triggerlike that question.
Where is it triggered?
So it may be writing that worddown a hundred times, or writing
(46:06):
it on a note card and carryingit around while you're at home,
or even putting up some likepost-it notes around your house.
That's just to trigger thatword and so it's getting used to
that word.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Right, it's again.
It's that exposure to the thingthat I am fearful of.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, and getting starting to habituate to it,
starting to get used to it, andfor it to feel like a thought,
like any other thought, right?
And again, what I let them knowis all of us have these
thoughts.
We all have some weird thoughts, Right?
Not everyone's talking about it, but we do.
Your OCD is latching onto it,and so we've got to figure out
(46:51):
how to more.
So let it be there.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
And so these exposures help do that they do,
and it's somebody gave me theanalogy a long time ago that
it's like the, like thegatekeeper of your, of your
brain.
Let's say, like in the old days, you know, the the president of
the company had a secretarythat always sat out at his, you
know, sat out in front of hisoffice and and gate kept who got
to come into the CEO's office.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
And what?
For whatever reason thatsecretary, that gatekeeper for
OCD is, is gone, either gone tolunch was fired, left the job
whatever.
And so all the thoughts come tothe CEO.
Well, all the everything comesto the CEO and it's like I can't
manage all of this and I haveto run it all down because my
(47:45):
job is to manage everything when, in reality, the gatekeeper of
the thoughts walked away and Iliken it to your front door was
taken off, so everything comesin and you have to deal with
everything that comes in.
Yeah, and what you're talkingabout is putting the front door
(48:05):
back on, rehiring the gatekeeperto keep those thoughts from
making permanent residence inyour brain as opposed to saying,
oh, I'm sorry, the CEO is busy,they can't entertain this
thought.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Right, right, yeah, I um another analogy I use um
someone uh I worked with showedme and I love it, so I use it as
the really old school Disneycartoon with briar rabbit.
Oh yeah, um, and there's a scene, and with briar rabbit, where
(48:41):
there's the tar baby and the thebriar rabbit walks by the tar
baby and then punches it andthen gets, you know, he's got
one fist stuck in it.
And then he gets his other fiststuck in it, and then his foot
is in it, and then the other one, and before he knows he's all
tangled up in it.
Yeah, covered in tar, coveredit, covered in tar.
(49:02):
And that's when, when we try tonot have a thought or make a
thought go away right.
That's when we start gettingstuck in the thought.
So the exposures help supportthat new attitude of dealing
with thoughts, of let them bethere, cause you have a million
(49:26):
thoughts a day, um, and just letthem come and go burst that.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
I love that analogy.
Yeah, it's a good one, I likeit.
I often use that with peoplewho don't have OCD but who are
avoiding their emotions and theydon't.
They won't feel things Uh-huh,and why can't it stop?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Exactly, yeah, it carries over, right For sure
it's an overall principle, Iwould say Right, and the keeping
it simple is it's a principleof approach Keep approaching,
don't avoid, because the bigcompulsion with pure o is
avoidance and and that is abehavior.
(50:15):
So it's approach, approach,approach, um, and and then now
you, now it feels a little bitmore manageable yeah, okay, I
just need to approach slowly butsurely approach.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
That, yeah, and the idea feels simple, right, but
it's certainly not easy, no, andso definitely not I.
You know, brandon, one of thethings again that I really
appreciate about who you are asa clinician is that you always
keep people at the core of whatyou're doing.
Yeah, you always keep theperson that you're treating at
(50:50):
the core of how you see them,and I think that that is that's
so key.
It's like walking through thiswith somebody approaching
something may take time, butit's like you're not going
anywhere.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have time.
Go at your pace, and I thinkit's important for us to impress
(51:10):
upon people listening, like ifthis is you and you're not in
the Dallas Fort Worth area andyou can't come see Brandon, then
it's finding somebody who iswilling and able to go at your
pace, to not expose you to thesun in a way that is just too
much yeah, going to leave youred and crispy.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
Right, yeah, cause it's really hard.
So you want someone you canfeel comfortable and trust with
to walk alongside you as you doit.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, brandon, thanks forcoming in this today and for us
to lay this stuff out there andI hope that people walk away
with the fact that there is hope.
Yes, there absolutely is not athought death sentence.
No where you have to pull backfrom your whole life, and I love
(52:01):
your messages approach so thatyou get your full life back, yep
, so that you have theopportunity to celebrate that
restored freedom.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Yep, yep, so that's it.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
I love it Cool.
Thanks, man.
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