October 29, 2024 • 47 mins
Unlock the secrets to a well-rested mind and body with Dr. Lee Long and special guest Lila Pond, as we explore the transformative power of sleep on mental and emotional well-being. Ever wondered how quality sleep can be the difference between hope and despair, especially for those affected by Alzheimer's? We'll reveal the fascinating science behind sleep stages, including the brain's deep cleaning process where cerebrospinal fluid clears away harmful plaques, emphasizing the crucial role of sleep in maintaining cognitive health.
Discover the profound relationship between sleep, emotions, and mental health as we discuss the restorative power of a good night's rest. With insights into therapies like Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART) and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), learn how mimicking REM sleep can aid those with disrupted sleep due to trauma or stress. We offer practical tips on optimizing your sleep environment—think room temperature and light exposure—to enhance emotional resilience and clarity, illustrated by real-life anecdotes of sleep's impact on creativity and problem-solving.
Finally, explore the nuances of gratitude, emotional self-understanding, and their significance on mental well-being. We'll share the importance of recognizing difficult experiences, maintaining emotional control, understanding chronotypes, and supporting unique sleep needs. From managing stress before bed to seeking professional help for sleep disorders, particularly during critical times like pregnancy, this episode is your guide to reclaiming restful nights and renewing your mind. Join us to harness the power of sleep and awaken a healthier, more balanced you.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch,
where host Dr Lee Long and guesthost Lila Pond dive into real
conversations that impact yourmental health.
In today's episode, restedMinds the podcast for better
sleep and stronger mental health, we're exploring the essential
connection between quality sleepand mental well-being.
Together, dr Lee and Lila willuncover practical insights,
(00:25):
science-backed tips and thelatest research to help you
reclaim your rest and renew yourmind.
If sleepless nights have youfeeling drained, you won't want
to miss this episode.
Your journey to mental wellnessstarts here.
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome listeners to this very special episode of
Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Lila Pond, an LPCsupervisor here at Restoration
and the illustrious sister of DrLee Long, whom I consider a
great expert.
I'm going to be guiding himthrough this conversation where
we're going to explore thecritical role of sleep in not
(01:03):
only our mental health journeybut our overall health journey.
So in the host seat for thisepisode we have, as I've said,
dr Lee Long.
He's an expert in many things,but especially in mental health,
trauma recovery and mindfulnessand, lee, you're here to share
(01:24):
those insights on how sleepimpacts our emotional and
psychological well-being.
It's so great to have you inthis different role today.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
It is so great to be here with you and talking about
sleep, which is so important,important.
Dr Grossman, who was a sleepexpert, said that the how does
he say it the bridge betweenhope and despair is a good
night's sleep.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Is it ever?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I think that that is something that we often overlook
is the role in the critical,the critical role and importance
of sleep and, um, I think thatyou know, for for a long time I
thought you know I had themindset well, you sleep when
you're dead I've said that a fewtimes in my life, especially
(02:18):
with a newborn baby right or ateenager, right it's a lot like
a newborn baby, right.
But when I realized what sleepdoes for our brain boy, I
retracted that.
I retracted that statement, andespecially having a parent who
struggled with Alzheimer'stimers, that's one of the things
(02:42):
that it has really set me on apath of how do I prevent it and,
if I ever get it, is thereanything we can do to slow it,
to stop it or to reverse it?
And right now in medicine theywould say that there's only room
to slow it.
There's only room to slow it.
(03:09):
There's, I think there's newresearch showing that sleep can
somewhat slow it, but can alsosomewhat turn a little bit, turn
it around.
And that's where I was like,okay, you have my attention, and
now sleep is something that Ithink is super important.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, and that is such a huge topic today is what
is the formula for health jevity, if you will, to coin a phrase
from some other professionals,but it is you know.
First we may need to understandand our listeners will probably
benefit from understanding whathappens when we sleep and why
(03:48):
does that create such anessential part of our vital
health.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I love that.
I think you're right.
I think you're right.
Healthgevity I like thatBecause I think that we're
looking for longevity, but weare not looking to live longer,
we're looking to live moreproductively.
(04:13):
And I think that you know, whenyou think about so, what happens
when we sleep.
Well, there's several differentstages of sleep.
There's stage one and that'slight sleep.
That's when your body is justkind of drifting down into sleep
.
That's when your body is justkind of drifting down into sleep
and you're, you're, as I see it, we're, we're getting, we're
getting prepared to go into theother two phases of sleep, which
the, the second phase would bedeep sleep.
(04:36):
And, um, sometimes people referto the first two phases as
light sleep.
Then they refer to the phasesthree and four as deep sleep.
And when I learned what, whathappens in deep sleep, I think I
may have called.
I know I called you to tell you, but I think I may have called
(04:57):
like four or five people to say,oh my gosh, do you know what
happens when you fall into adeep sleep?
So what gets me so excited isis that we have, from the neck
down, we have a lymphatic system, and the lymphatic system, as
I'm sure people are mostly aware, is where you have lymph nodes,
(05:17):
that your body moves fluidsthrough and your lymph nodes
clean it and you know it's it's.
It's, it's sort of like your,your filter system, but we don't
have lymph nodes in our brain.
Our skull present prevents that.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
There's no room Does that mean we have big brains.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yes, Some of us do.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yes.
So how does our body clean ourbrain?
Well, for a long time theythought it didn't.
But when we get into that deepsleep our glial cells shrink and
cerebral spinal fluid comes inand washes our brain and washes
(06:08):
our brain.
It washes it of amyloid betaplaque, which is that that which
we, they say is connected toalzheimer's, and tau protein,
which they say is connected toother neurological issues, and
it washes the brain, washesitself of those, those plaques
and those protein.
And when I heard that I justthought, whoa, we are fearfully
(06:28):
and wonderfully made.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yes, that's incredible.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
That as soon as we move into the REM sleep, our
brain comes back to the normalsize and it stops washing.
And in REM sleep I've heard itdescribed as like when you're
going through something that'stough, difficult, some people
might even call traumatic thatthey that the brain sorts
(06:56):
through that through dreams.
Rem sleep is where we dream andyou know how many times
there've been several studiesdone where they will give people
a problem to work through andthen they will put them into REM
sleep and when they come out ofREM sleep, oftentimes they will
(07:17):
have a solution for thatproblem.
What what I find in that is isthat it's it's often been
described this way that it'slike whatever you're going
through is like a citrus fruit,like, let's call it, an orange,
and that when we have REM sleep,when we dream that, it's like
the brain's way of pulling thatrhine, that external rhine, off
(07:43):
the skin off the orange.
And so what's inside is muchmore malleable and workable.
And so when you think aboutthat, when we go into deep sleep
, that our brain is cleansingitself, cleaning itself.
And when you go into REM, yourbrain is is processing themes
(08:07):
and things and it's it's helpingsort of take that hard cover
off of hurtful hard things or,uh, you're processing through
different ideas and formulationsand learning.
The other part of what REMsleep also offers is that if we
have, like, say, five neuralpathways that we're using, or we
(08:33):
have five neural pathways forsomething and we really are only
repetitively using three, REMsleep might be where the brain
says, okay, we don't need thatanymore, and it becomes more
efficient.
And so you think about all thatgoes on during sleep.
We're cleaning our brain, we'rebecoming more adaptable, we're
(08:53):
becoming more efficient.
I mean, when I learned all ofthis, I was like, well, it is
time to go to bed right now.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Exactly, and that is so fascinating.
It's like the lymphaticsystem's working from the neck
down and then the Roomba goesupstairs right and just starts
washing all that away the nightcleanup team.
But you know there are theoristswho are very focused on the
meaning of dreams and what thatmeans, and we aren't necessarily
(09:22):
going to go into that today.
However, it is fascinating ifyou would kind of deep dive a
little more in how this impactsour emotions and our mental
health.
I can see where it would help.
Our physical health and ourbrain is like waking up,
stronger and more primed foradaptation or new ideas.
(09:44):
But how does this impact ouremotional and mental health in
the long?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
run Especially.
I think the best way that Icould articulate that would be
that when you think about beingwell rested, right, you think
about you, don't?
You're not operating with asmuch despair, right, If you, if
you, again, it's the bridge, thebridge right.
The bridge between hope anddespair is a good night's sleep,
(10:11):
Grossman was really ontosomething.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
He was, and it's so funny because my late husband
and your late brother-in-lawused to say that all the time.
You know when you're raisingsix teenage daughters and two
teenage sons, and they didn'tcome here in that form.
But, but you know when you'reraising six teenage daughters
and two teenage sons, and theydidn't come here in that form.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
But newborns feel like teenagers often.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
With car keys Right and teenagers feel like newborns
.
But it's that that is the placewhere you do find deposits of
hope.
So that is spot on, spot on,yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
It gives us, I think, a platform and I think that
when you think about I remembera friend of mine who her sister
was a dressmaker, okay, who hersister was a dressmaker, okay,
she would say that her sisterwould be so distraught over a
dress that she was producing forsome big event, for someone.
And she felt so responsible andthat she would go to sleep, she
(11:10):
would say her prayers, she wouldask God to highlight things for
her, she would go to sleep andshe said it was like a divine
visit.
And I think that there is.
Our brain really does workthrough some of our despair,
some of our the pains, and youthink about the premise of, like
ART, accelerated riskresolution therapy, which we
(11:34):
have just become, uh, we'vebecome trained in, and right
gosh.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I love art.
Oh, it's so powerful and emdr.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
They operate off of that eye movement that
replicates REM sleep and youthink about well then, doesn't
REM sleep have have such a great.
It has something so beautifuland powerful to offer us?
Yes, but here's the here's partof the struggle.
Where ART and EMDR come in istypically when you have any kind
(12:08):
of post-traumatic stress oryou're stressed about something.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What tends to get disrupted Sleep Exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And so we have learned these theories and these
therapies of how we can I hateto say, artificially impact, but
I think that's appropriate thatwe can artificially impact our
brains by replicating a piece ofthat REM sleep.
And so when you think aboutwhen sleep isn't disrupted, and
(12:37):
if we're protective of sleep,then how you know how powerful
could that be for us.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Right, yeah, and look anything in life that can help
us deal with the things thatcome along that are difficult,
but also even the joys of lifecan keep us awake sometimes.
But what are some commonfactors that can interrupt sleep
?
You mentioned one stress,anxiety.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
You know one common factor I think that's really
simplistic is we don't turn allthe lights off in the room.
It's a well-lit room.
In other words, in order tosleep, we have a cold, dark
space and so temperature, light,artificial light.
(13:27):
I know that a lot of our smartnot so smart devices put off
ambient light.
Smart not so smart devices putoff ambient light and, um you
know, going into the evening,are we around, are we?
It's?
It's interesting because mywife, your sister-in-law, loves
her sleep.
She's a woman who loves hersleep.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
She's obviously extremely smart.
She's brilliant, extremelysmart.
She's brilliant.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
And she.
One of the things that shenaturally does is when, when it,
when the sun starts to go down.
She starts lowering lights inthe house so that there's not a
lot of our artificial lightcoming into our eyes.
Because, if you'll notice, ifyou wake up and you go let's say
(14:15):
you wake up in the middle ofthe night and you go to the
restroom If you do that in thedark, it doesn't wake you up as
much.
But if you turn on your phoneor turn on the light or you do
something that lights up theroom, you're immediately, then
you're waking yourself upfurther.
Then you're, you're, you'rewaking yourself up further.
(14:40):
And so her whole thought is andshe's actually right about this
is that when, when it start,when the sun goes down, start
turning down the lights.
I know some neuroscientists whoare.
I think you know they're soguarded of their sleep, which I
understand why they will put redfilters over their lights and
(15:00):
that they will turn on the redfilters at night so that all of
the light that's coming to themis red filtered light, which
does not wake the brain up asmuch.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
OK, that is fascinating, you know, because
light is often, sometimes whatwe seek, if we're not fans of
darkness.
You know there are some folkswho don't like to sleep with it
too dark, but I think there's away to tone that light down.
Yes, and that's so helpful.
So what I'm hearing you say istemperature is important.
(15:31):
Yes, maybe avoiding too muchlight.
What is something else that?
A couple of other things thatmight be helpful.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
So this may sound, this may sound counterintuitive,
but if if you're strugglingwith sleep, waking up with the
sun and going outside with thesunrise and taking in, now, do
not stare at the sun.
I am not suggesting that youstare at the sun, but looking at
the clouds, looking at theblues and the reds and the
(16:03):
oranges and all of that, liketaking all of that in.
In other words, don't wake upand put sunglasses on, depending
on what type of glasses youwear.
It won't filter out that stuff,but it's best to just have the
naked eye ingesting that and yes, ingesting that because there's
(16:23):
only two nerves your opticalnerves, so your eyes, and your
olfactory nerves, so your smellor your nose.
Those are the only two nervesthat go directly into your brain
.
The rest goes through yourbrainstem and so when you ingest
that morning light, it startsthe production of melatonin.
(16:47):
You think, well, wait, I thoughtmelatonin was for sleep.
Yes, but it begins in thatmorning rhythm.
And so wake up with the sun and, conversely, go to bed with the
sun.
You may think, well, golly, Ican't go to bed that early, and
we'll talk about that in amoment.
But maybe you can't and don't,push yourself and don't shame,
(17:11):
for the love of all things, pureand holy, do not shame yourself
for that there's a reason.
Exactly.
But when the sun goes down, gooutside, take a walk around the
block Again, ingest that sunsetAgain.
Don't stare at the sun, but dolook at the sunset and take that
(17:32):
in, because it helps put yourbody on a good rhythm that it
understands.
Okay, it's now nighttime andwhen you go back in, just keep
your lights a little more dim orput the red filter on them.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
That's great and that is a great reminder too.
That goes all the way back towhy we're even talking about the
importance of sleep is that ourmind and our body are so
connected and so vital in takingcare of those things that we've
got to remember that all ofthose factors are sending a
(18:07):
signal to our body to do what itwas designed to do and we're
moving out of the way thoseinterrupting factors hopefully.
Just for look, it's just forovernight.
And how are we going to getacross that bridge of despair to
hope if we don't start kind ofmoving those things out of the
(18:27):
way?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Well, in one sleep scientist who's a friend of mine
said.
He said that what sparked hisinterest in grad school was the
fact that we spend a third ofour life asleep.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So true, so say more about that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, we spend a third of our life asleep, so why
wouldn't it be an importanttheme, absolutely?
And when he looked into that orwhen, when that's what sparked
him and I started thinking aboutit from that perspective and he
and I started talking about allthese themes that go into sleep
and what all happens in yourbrain and all that.
(19:03):
I just again, we spend a thirdof our life asleep, so it has to
be something that we pay closeattention to.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
And prioritize Right and prioritize.
You know, some of us havebought into the like, the
mythical thinking that I onlyneed three or four hours of
sleep and I'll be fine, and youknow, that's kind of like saying
I only need to eat one certainthing or I only need to not eat
(19:33):
so many times, and believingthat kind of mythical thinking.
But we're not listening to ourbodies.
So this is super important.
So do you have some specifictips?
First of all, I know you'vementioned the red light, I know
you've mentioned the sun, butwhat about that old nasty stress
and adverse event thing orrelational interruptions?
(19:57):
What do we do with that?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
That's such a great question.
I think that, first andforemost, I know a lot of people
not a lot.
I know people wear sleeptrackers.
I wear one, my watch tracks mysleep and so I'm looking at on a
daily basis how much time did Isleep Did it?
How much REM did I get in mysleep?
(20:21):
And it's a gross estimate, butit it is.
But it's watching my heart rateto determine about where I am
with things.
It tells me deep sleep, remsleep, light sleep, how often
did I wake up in the night?
Based on my movement?
And I know that I love data andI can totally geek out on data,
(20:42):
but I also know that I cannotbe distracted by the data.
I know that.
You know, I was just with oneof my kids for the weekend at an
event for her school and I wassuper excited and I started
(21:02):
thinking at a certain time.
I'm like, well, I'm reallysleepy, but I thought I don't
want to give this time up.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And who cares?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
if I only get five hours of sleep tonight and so we
want to be careful that wedon't become rigid with our
bridge from despair to hope man,that's great yes.
But that it's more of aprinciple that we're guarding
(21:29):
sleep but we're not covetingsleep.
Right sleep, and if we'reanxious, it's okay to be anxious
.
We don't need to become anxious, then, about our anxiety,
because then we're going to havesleep anxiety.
And so if you find yourselffeeling anxious about sleep and
am I getting enough?
(21:49):
Is it the right kind?
And I would encourage you to,just as much as you can,
radically accept the fact thatyou're going to do the best you
can with what's in front of youand maybe you need to get up out
of bed and you need to justreset.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
And then you can try to go back into bed with a
mindset of, hey, I'm going to dothe best I can, I'm going to
get the sleep that I can get andI'm going to move through this
in a way that is not trying toforce something.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
That is so important.
I'm glad you brought that up,because rigidity takes us often
down.
It'd be like driving withoutGPS and continuing around the
same square block or detour orwhatever.
We just don't get where we wantto go.
That's right.
And so I think by being lessrigid and more open and flexible
(22:48):
, but intentional at the sametime, then we find that sleep
becomes less of a nemesis andmore of a partner.
Yeah, I love that, you know.
I mean, I think too, if we canfind a place to park some of our
cares.
You know, with this acceleratedresolution therapy, part of the
(23:11):
mantra is we're not doing awaywith the facts, we're just
creating new images andsensations in our body.
And so what's wrong with, kindof right before going to sleep,
reminding ourself that we canenvision Remember the old count,
the sheep jumping over thefence or whatever?
(23:31):
I mean, that would stress meout.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
What if?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
that sheep falls.
What's chasing them?
You know we don't want to haveimages that create anxiety for
us, but we do want to, you know,just find ourself in a pleasant
place, not an anticipatory.
Oh no, I know I'm going to wakeup at three o'clock, right?
You know, do you find that thathaving narrative um narrative
(23:57):
management?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I like that.
That's actually brilliant,because what it's setting your
mind on these, these?
Well, let me get.
Let me come at it a differentway.
I, when I, when I'm laying myhead down to go to sleep, if I'm
not already asleep by the timemy head hits the pillow, then
what I'm doing is going throughthe positive things in my day.
(24:21):
That's my time of gratitude.
What am I thankful for, what amI grateful for?
And it's a time of meditationand prayer for me, of you know
what.
God, thank you for this day andthank you for this thing.
Thank you for that thing.
Thank you for this day andthank you for this thing.
Thank you for that thing, thankyou for this person and thank
you for this dynamic, and itreally like.
(24:41):
It's like wow, I have a reallygreat life and I'm just like you
know, and it's it really.
I think that can be a reallyneat exercise to not only put us
in gratitude but also to staveaway some of those worries,
because even when I havesomething the next day that I'm
(25:03):
stressed by or worried about,one of the exercises I do is
trying to be grateful for thethings I can be grateful about
in that stressful thing.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Oh, that is so powerful, and you know this, and
I can't name the exact study,but there was a study done on
gratitude and functional MRIresearch at the same time, and
what was discovered was thatneural pathways it was.
They called it a cognitiveexpander.
So in other words, we it's liketaking an expander and dropping
(25:38):
it into that neural pathway andwidening it.
It doesn't mean you'll alwaysthink differently, it just means
you have more room to thinkdifferently.
And that's where you know thereare a lot of things that happen
during the day that maybe we'renot grateful for and we could
spin out thinking on that, right, right, but then that's driving
(25:58):
the bus.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
It is, and I also want to say some of those things
that we may not be grateful for, may legitimately not be things
that hold gratitude.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Well, no kidding.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
In other words, I don't want to and I know you're
not saying this Right I don'twant our listeners to think what
we're saying is that we have toput a Pollyanna Band-Aid over
things and I know you're notsaying that it's that place of
there are some things in lifethat are just really difficult
and we have to just see it, nameit and say, yep, that's
(26:31):
difficult or that was traumatic,or that was painful.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
You know, and that reminds me and this is kind of
what I think we're saying.
I'm kind of excited about this.
I certainly wouldn't want toeat a heavy meal while I'm
working out really hard that'sright or running a marathon.
That would prevent my body fromdoing what I'm asking it to do
that's right.
So I'm asking my body to go tosleep, so I want to make sure
(26:57):
I'm giving it every opportunityto do so by not doing something
else.
And that is ruminating oneverything that went wrong that
day.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
That's it.
And it's funny, a very goodfriend of mine was telling me.
He said I don't know that Idream and I said, oh, I bet you
do, you just don't recall them.
And he was like okay, then howdo I recall my dreams?
And I said, well, you wouldstart by basically alerting your
(27:25):
body to the awareness that youwant to recall your dreams.
And I said when you findyourself rising out of sleep,
make a mental note to scan.
Did I dream anything?
Well, I, I, I saw him today and, uh, I ran into him and he said
I did, I do dream, I rememberedmy dream and we went through
(27:47):
that, like he went through thisdream, and I said well, what
sense do you make of that?
And he talked through somethings that you know.
He thought that it could be andwhat's interesting is is he, he
illuminated the fact that hewas working through some
emotions.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
And I to your point.
I don't want to eat a heavymeal right before I work or
while I'm working out.
That is brilliant.
I love that analogy becauseyou're spot on and you think
about what are you doing whenyou work out.
right, you're lifting heavythings, you're running fast,
running far you know running,you know hard, or however you
(28:30):
want to say it.
Well, what does dreaming do forus?
It sorts out those things thatwe don't in our conscious
awareness.
We don't have that space forright.
So our brain shut, I mean ourbody is.
You know, we have sleepparalysis, right?
The only two things that itdoesn't paralyze is our eye
(28:51):
movement and our diaphragm.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Oh really.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
The rest of our body is paralyzed.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And so your eyes move during sleep and you still
breathe.
The rest of your body is down,Otherwise we would be acting out
our dreams.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
And your heart's beating.
Yes, well, right, yes, that's agiven.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
There are sleep disorders that I, I, I want to
just touch on that.
Sometimes your body doesn't gointo sleep paralysis that the
you may have night terrors ornight you know, sleepwalking and
there are those aspects and ifthat is something that a person
struggles with, I hope that theywill see a sleep specialist to
(29:38):
help them sort that out.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Or sleep apnea Right, right, oh gosh, sleep apnea,
that is so critical that canlead to premature death.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
I mean, you stop breathing, right.
And you know some people think,well, yeah, that's just going
to happen and I'm not going todo that, and.
But if you can breathe whenyou're awake, then you need to
be able to breathe when you'reasleep.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Most definitely.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And I just can't caution enough If you have sleep
apnea or if you snore.
There there are CPAP and BiPAPmachines.
Now, a lot of sleep scientistsdon't love the CPAP and BiPAP
machines because it thatpositive airflow into your nasal
(30:31):
passage they, they believe iscan be very disruptive to the
sleep process and you may notget into that deep sleep.
It may prevent you from hittingthe different uh levels cycles
of sleep yeah, However, there'smouth pieces, there's a head
(30:51):
placements, there's ways toadjust yourself.
If you believe that you or yourpartner has a sleep disorder
like sleep apnea, that issomething that I strongly
encourage you to seek like.
Do a sleep study, do some, youknow the the studies that are
(31:27):
being done with, especially withpregnant, the studies that are
being done especially withpregnant women who have sleep ap
does have an impact on theunborn child.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Oh, that's because oxygenation is so important.
I think that's why pregnantwomen are encouraged not to
allow their heart rate to getpast a certain level when
they're working out or whatever,just so that there's good blood
flow and oxygen's notrestricted in any way.
So that is super helpful.
Well, I know there are othersleep disorders.
(32:02):
There's apnea, there's maybesome night terrors.
Maybe there are others that you, I mean, would you consider
insomnia, or is that just amisused term?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
No, I think that you're right.
Insomnia due to stress orinsomnia due to some other cause
that doesn't allow a person totheir body, just doesn't shut
down there.
You know, we they stay in thatheightened sympathetic state.
There you go, Whereas you know,sympathetic is the they call it
(32:37):
the fight or flight.
There's there's other parts tothe sympathetic system, but
there's also the parasympathetic, which is the rest and digest.
But what's interesting is isthat there's a balance to both
right.
You can overdo the sympatheticwhere you're in that fight or
flight, and you can overdoparasympathetic where it
actually pair.
Overdoing parasympathetic leadsyou to coma and death, and so
(33:01):
it's all a balance right.
And so, um you, you want, youwant to help the body get down
into that resting space where,again, you do, you can do
breathing exercises, you can douh, you know, the the box,
breathing.
Oh yes, three square, foursquare.
(33:22):
Some people do five squarebreathing.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Um.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
I know that some people do the the inhale where
it's where they take that inhaleand then they take that last
big breath in.
And that's helpful for you know, calming the body, getting into
that, moving more towards thatparasympathetic system.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
So, kind of going back to that word, insomnia.
What I'm hearing you say and Imay be totally off on this, so
please correct this, but it'salmost like that is a spectrum
for people who have troublesleeping and if you just hold on
to that, that maybe you misswhat's underlying.
Is that what I'm hearing yousay?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I think that's a neat way to say that.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Okay, so like perhaps highly anxious or someone
struggling with depression, thatmay be underlying what's
creating the state of insomnia.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, okay, I think that's a neat way to say that.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Okay, so not to just hang the moniker of insomnia.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Oh well, I just have insomnia, Okay.
So it's work through some ofthese tips and and, uh, healthy
ways, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
There's a uh CBT which it has its place.
Yeah, it has its place Um CBT I, cbt CBT cognitive behavioral
therapy insomnia.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Um, they have a.
There's a lot of tips andtricks that they utilize there
of like you through theirpainful dreams, like having
nightmares, stuff.
That accelerated resolution,therapy uh, therapy is when you
have a repetitive nightmarethat's very thematic, that the
(35:40):
therapist will work with you tohave them to create an alternate
ending.
There you go and that alternateending you can say that like
one.
One example is if, if, uh, ifyou're, if you're being chased
through, uh, a, a small townwhere you get trapped by a man
who you believe is coming to doharm, well, you change the
(36:03):
ending to say, no, he was comingto alert you that you just won
the lottery.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
And it was an exciting dream.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I'll let you know tomorrow if I dream that Right
Go ahead.
I dream that Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
But it's the power of suggestion in our minds that
helps us move to a differentpart of that dream that we can
change, that we can have agencyover that.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
And I love that.
We as human beings are sogeared and so wired to want
options.
We want the power of choice,boy, that's true, and I think
sometimes we think we have noauthority or power over some of
the functions in our body.
And I'm not saying that, wejust will it into existence.
(36:49):
Right, right, and I know thatthere are statements like I
manifested that or whatever, butthat's really all that that is
saying is that we get to choosehow we're going to think about
something.
So is that why the admonitionnot to let the sun go down on
your anger?
Is that?
Why do you think that playsinto the fact that, obviously,
(37:12):
sleep is a part of our natural,created way of existing?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
a need, a natural need yes, I, I think that is and
I'm that's.
That's an interesting uh uhtopic to bring up, because I
think all too often we thinkI've heard young married couples
who say we stayed up until twoin the morning because we didn't
want to let the sun go down onour anger and I said wait, I
(37:38):
want you to go back and I wantyou to reread what that says
Don't let the sun go down onwhat?
On your anger.
It doesn't mean that you gowork that out relationally.
It means you work that outinternally.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Right, you calm the emotion.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
In you.
Okay, you understand it, youcalm it, because oftentimes we
orient ourselves to other peoplerather than first orienting
ourselves to us.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
That is so good.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
And what happens is is if I orient myself to someone
else, I feel a sense of a lossof control, because you are
making me angry and it's like no, let's look what is anger.
Anger is an injustice.
Has an injustice been done oram I disappointed because an
expectation wasn't met?
(38:31):
And if an expectation wasn'tmet, then I can sit with
disappointment differently thanI can sit with an injustice.
Right, and so I I think thatyou're right that understanding
how to name our emotions andunderstand what did I truly feel
there is important, andespecially, like what you're
(38:51):
saying before I go to sleep,that it's not something massive
that's overwhelming me.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Oh, that is so important for all of us to
understand.
I think, too, we confuse thefact that our emotions are
taking us to a conclusioninstead of opening up a pathway
for curiosity.
It's giving us a clue.
It's not leading us necessarilyto a conclusion.
(39:17):
The conclusion comes later.
But you know, way back at thebeginning of our conversation
you said that it unlocks theparts of our brain to figure
something out, right?
So maybe, um, just calming theanger will allow us to wake up
and solve our relationaldifferences in a completely
(39:39):
different way than what westarted out with.
That made us have such anintense emotion.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yes, and you think about how emotions get
heightened when you're tired.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
You think?
Speaker 3 (39:48):
about the toddler that's throwing a fit and the
parent who apologizes, it's.
Oh, I'm sorry they missed theirnap, oh good point.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
That's legit.
That is legit that isabsolutely legit and that's why.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
I tell these young couples that are trying not to
let the sun go down on their ownanger is what it says but that
it's like wait, take a rest,take a break, take a beat,
whatever you want to take, buttake some time and rest, Let
yourself get a differentperspective and then re-engage
with one another, and it doesn'tmean you're ignoring the
(40:21):
problem Not at all.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
You're not sweeping it under the rug, that's right.
It just means that you'regiving yourself, your brain, a
chance to rest and get thatRoomba out.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Clean up the junk.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
That's right, clean it all up.
So you know.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Is there any one thing that youwant to say that you haven't
had the opportunity to say?
That you want to leave peoplewith?
Speaker 3 (40:45):
today there actually is, and one of the things that I
want to make sure we cover ispeople ask is there an ideal
bedtime?
And the answer to that is kindof I love that answer.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Is there an ideal budget, kind of.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
But the ideal bedtime .
One of the things that isreally important for us to know
is there is this term called achronotype and chronotype.
Chronotype is that there's is.
When is your natural rhythm?
To sleep Okay, meaning are youan early to bed person, are you
(41:25):
a moderate to middle pathbedtime person, or are you a
super late to bed person?
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
If you are an early to bed person, then asking you
to stay up past that now foragain, not rigidity, flexibility
, but repetitively asking youthat would be like an eight 39
o'clock bedtime.
And if that's your naturalbodily rhythm, your chronotype,
(41:54):
then asking you to stay up until11, because you know, every
Saturday or you know, everycouple of nights, there's this
show on that we love to watchand I really want you to stay up
.
Chances are you're not going tobe able to, but it's also if
you're.
If you do stay up past thatnatural chronotype bedtime,
you're not going to get as greata sleep and your body's going
(42:17):
to naturally wake up super early.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Right, because if you go to bed, early, you naturally
wake up early.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
If you go to bed at a moderate hour, you naturally
wake up at a moderate time.
Okay, If you go to bed superlate, you're going to wake up
kind of late, and you know, alot of times people assign a
judgment to that and say, oh,responsible the early bird gets
the worm.
I don't really like worms, Idon't want the worm.
(42:45):
But you know you think aboutthat and how often we assign
value to that.
There is no value to whetheryou go to bed early or go to bed
late, it's do.
Did you get sleep and can youorient your life to the timings
that you, to your chronotype?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
That is phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
The other part that I would feel remiss if I did not
say parents of teenagers, turnup the volume please.
Right now, parents of teenagers, please hear me.
When you are going throughpuberty and your adolescence,
your natural chronotype iskicked to a later phase.
(43:25):
That's why teenagers naturallystay up late and naturally want
to sleep.
Please, please, parents,parents, let them sleep.
And I'm not saying let themsleep till two o'clock and let
them stay up till two.
I'm not saying that.
But please don't kick open thedoor and tell them that they're
(43:47):
lazy If they're sleeping late.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
I just I want to encourage you.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
I just I want to encourage you.
Teenagers of all people needtheir sleep.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
So powerful.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
School time is usually super early, and so
you're disrupting their sleepfive days out of the week, and
if their chronotype is not, mostteenagers, like I said, their
chronotype gets kicked to later,and so they're going to
struggle to go to bed early andthen you're waking them up early
, disrupting the amount of sleepthat they're getting.
(44:20):
So, on the weekends we don'tbank sleep, but at least try to
let them catch up on some.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That is so good.
And you know, parents, we'renot Navy SEALs.
Our job is not to kick downdoors.
Parents, we're not Navy SEALs.
Our job is not to kick downdoors.
And even a Navy SEAL goes intoa room and is curious before
they come to a conclusion.
That's right, and so I think,being a curious parent, how can
I support you while you're goingthrough this phase of your life
(44:49):
, rather than you're lazy is agood technique to use, and
you're allowing them to developa healthier brain.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
That's right.
You know, and healthier brain,healthier body.
You're right about developingconnection and what's
interesting is, your kid willgrow.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Isn't that great.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Physically grow.
You look at kids who didn't getgood sleep when they were
younger and I wonder and I don'thave evidence for this per se,
but I wonder that you knowpeople who've been through
trauma, people who didn't getgood sleep.
It really disrupts their growth.
When you have other kids whoare, are, you know, like we know
(45:29):
now, I think about thisgeneration that's coming up now
and how much taller they arethan their parents.
Oftentimes I look around andsee so many kids that are
outgrowing their parents heightwise and you think we now know
how to make it darker in therooms.
We know that we that uh to makeit cooler in rooms.
We have that available to us.
Nor we have the ability to tocreate good space for sleep and
(45:54):
how kids are just shooting upheight-wise and I just can't
help but think that there'ssomething in there that's really
correlated with that.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I agree, and that sounds like sleep nutrition as
well as food nutrition, that is,it combines.
Mental health, nutrition.
I mean all of that.
Like we said, our body is, youknow, mind, body, spirit.
So all of that works togetherfor us to grow and be healthy.
Thank you so much for sharingall of this great information
(46:27):
with us.
I know you've studied hard andI know that you've delved very
deeply into this, because it isconnected to our mental health,
our emotional health, ourspiritual health, our physical
health.
So thank you for that.
I so appreciate you taking thetime to share that with all of
us.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Oh my gosh, and thank you for being with us today.
It's always fun to be with you.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Well, thank you.
Right back at you.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of Right back
at.
You is just beginning and we'reexcited to have you with us
every step of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch,
where host Dr Lee Long and guesthost Lila Pond dive into real
conversations that impact yourmental health.
In today's episode, restedMinds the podcast for better
sleep and stronger mental health, we're exploring the essential
connection between quality sleepand mental well-being.
Together, dr Lee and Lila willuncover practical insights,
(00:25):
science-backed tips and thelatest research to help you
reclaim your rest and renew yourmind.
If sleepless nights have youfeeling drained, you won't want
to miss this episode.
Your journey to mental wellnessstarts here.
Let's get started.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome listeners to this very special episode of
Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Lila Pond, an LPCsupervisor here at Restoration
and the illustrious sister of DrLee Long, whom I consider a
great expert.
I'm going to be guiding himthrough this conversation where
we're going to explore thecritical role of sleep in not
(01:03):
only our mental health journeybut our overall health journey.
So in the host seat for thisepisode we have, as I've said,
dr Lee Long.
He's an expert in many things,but especially in mental health,
trauma recovery and mindfulnessand, lee, you're here to share
(01:24):
those insights on how sleepimpacts our emotional and
psychological well-being.
It's so great to have you inthis different role today.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
It is so great to be here with you and talking about
sleep, which is so important,important.
Dr Grossman, who was a sleepexpert, said that the how does
he say it the bridge betweenhope and despair is a good
night's sleep.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Is it ever?
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I think that that is something that we often overlook
is the role in the critical,the critical role and importance
of sleep and, um, I think thatyou know, for for a long time I
thought you know I had themindset well, you sleep when
you're dead I've said that a fewtimes in my life, especially
(02:18):
with a newborn baby right or ateenager, right it's a lot like
a newborn baby, right.
But when I realized what sleepdoes for our brain boy, I
retracted that.
I retracted that statement, andespecially having a parent who
struggled with Alzheimer'stimers, that's one of the things
(02:42):
that it has really set me on apath of how do I prevent it and,
if I ever get it, is thereanything we can do to slow it,
to stop it or to reverse it?
And right now in medicine theywould say that there's only room
to slow it.
There's only room to slow it.
(03:09):
There's, I think there's newresearch showing that sleep can
somewhat slow it, but can alsosomewhat turn a little bit, turn
it around.
And that's where I was like,okay, you have my attention, and
now sleep is something that Ithink is super important.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, and that is such a huge topic today is what
is the formula for health jevity, if you will, to coin a phrase
from some other professionals,but it is you know.
First we may need to understandand our listeners will probably
benefit from understanding whathappens when we sleep and why
(03:48):
does that create such anessential part of our vital
health.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
I love that.
I think you're right.
I think you're right.
Healthgevity I like thatBecause I think that we're
looking for longevity, but weare not looking to live longer,
we're looking to live moreproductively.
(04:13):
And I think that you know, whenyou think about so, what happens
when we sleep.
Well, there's several differentstages of sleep.
There's stage one and that'slight sleep.
That's when your body is justkind of drifting down into sleep
.
That's when your body is justkind of drifting down into sleep
and you're, you're, as I see it, we're, we're getting, we're
getting prepared to go into theother two phases of sleep, which
the, the second phase would bedeep sleep.
(04:36):
And, um, sometimes people referto the first two phases as
light sleep.
Then they refer to the phasesthree and four as deep sleep.
And when I learned what, whathappens in deep sleep, I think I
may have called.
I know I called you to tell you, but I think I may have called
(04:57):
like four or five people to say,oh my gosh, do you know what
happens when you fall into adeep sleep?
So what gets me so excited isis that we have, from the neck
down, we have a lymphatic system, and the lymphatic system, as
I'm sure people are mostly aware, is where you have lymph nodes,
(05:17):
that your body moves fluidsthrough and your lymph nodes
clean it and you know it's it's.
It's, it's sort of like your,your filter system, but we don't
have lymph nodes in our brain.
Our skull present prevents that.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
There's no room Does that mean we have big brains.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yes, Some of us do.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yes.
So how does our body clean ourbrain?
Well, for a long time theythought it didn't.
But when we get into that deepsleep our glial cells shrink and
cerebral spinal fluid comes inand washes our brain and washes
(06:08):
our brain.
It washes it of amyloid betaplaque, which is that that which
we, they say is connected toalzheimer's, and tau protein,
which they say is connected toother neurological issues, and
it washes the brain, washesitself of those, those plaques
and those protein.
And when I heard that I justthought, whoa, we are fearfully
(06:28):
and wonderfully made.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yes, that's incredible.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
That as soon as we move into the REM sleep, our
brain comes back to the normalsize and it stops washing.
And in REM sleep I've heard itdescribed as like when you're
going through something that'stough, difficult, some people
might even call traumatic thatthey that the brain sorts
(06:56):
through that through dreams.
Rem sleep is where we dream andyou know how many times
there've been several studiesdone where they will give people
a problem to work through andthen they will put them into REM
sleep and when they come out ofREM sleep, oftentimes they will
(07:17):
have a solution for thatproblem.
What what I find in that is isthat it's it's often been
described this way that it'slike whatever you're going
through is like a citrus fruit,like, let's call it, an orange,
and that when we have REM sleep,when we dream that, it's like
the brain's way of pulling thatrhine, that external rhine, off
(07:43):
the skin off the orange.
And so what's inside is muchmore malleable and workable.
And so when you think aboutthat, when we go into deep sleep
, that our brain is cleansingitself, cleaning itself.
And when you go into REM, yourbrain is is processing themes
(08:07):
and things and it's it's helpingsort of take that hard cover
off of hurtful hard things or,uh, you're processing through
different ideas and formulationsand learning.
The other part of what REMsleep also offers is that if we
have, like, say, five neuralpathways that we're using, or we
(08:33):
have five neural pathways forsomething and we really are only
repetitively using three, REMsleep might be where the brain
says, okay, we don't need thatanymore, and it becomes more
efficient.
And so you think about all thatgoes on during sleep.
We're cleaning our brain, we'rebecoming more adaptable, we're
(08:53):
becoming more efficient.
I mean, when I learned all ofthis, I was like, well, it is
time to go to bed right now.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Exactly, and that is so fascinating.
It's like the lymphaticsystem's working from the neck
down and then the Roomba goesupstairs right and just starts
washing all that away the nightcleanup team.
But you know there are theoristswho are very focused on the
meaning of dreams and what thatmeans, and we aren't necessarily
(09:22):
going to go into that today.
However, it is fascinating ifyou would kind of deep dive a
little more in how this impactsour emotions and our mental
health.
I can see where it would help.
Our physical health and ourbrain is like waking up,
stronger and more primed foradaptation or new ideas.
(09:44):
But how does this impact ouremotional and mental health in
the long?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
run Especially.
I think the best way that Icould articulate that would be
that when you think about beingwell rested, right, you think
about you, don't?
You're not operating with asmuch despair, right, If you, if
you, again, it's the bridge, thebridge right.
The bridge between hope anddespair is a good night's sleep,
(10:11):
Grossman was really ontosomething.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
He was, and it's so funny because my late husband
and your late brother-in-lawused to say that all the time.
You know when you're raisingsix teenage daughters and two
teenage sons, and they didn'tcome here in that form.
But, but you know when you'reraising six teenage daughters
and two teenage sons, and theydidn't come here in that form.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
But newborns feel like teenagers often.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
With car keys Right and teenagers feel like newborns
.
But it's that that is the placewhere you do find deposits of
hope.
So that is spot on, spot on,yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
It gives us, I think, a platform and I think that
when you think about I remembera friend of mine who her sister
was a dressmaker, okay, who hersister was a dressmaker, okay,
she would say that her sisterwould be so distraught over a
dress that she was producing forsome big event, for someone.
And she felt so responsible andthat she would go to sleep, she
(11:10):
would say her prayers, she wouldask God to highlight things for
her, she would go to sleep andshe said it was like a divine
visit.
And I think that there is.
Our brain really does workthrough some of our despair,
some of our the pains, and youthink about the premise of, like
ART, accelerated riskresolution therapy, which we
(11:34):
have just become, uh, we'vebecome trained in, and right
gosh.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I love art.
Oh, it's so powerful and emdr.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
They operate off of that eye movement that
replicates REM sleep and youthink about well then, doesn't
REM sleep have have such a great.
It has something so beautifuland powerful to offer us?
Yes, but here's the here's partof the struggle.
Where ART and EMDR come in istypically when you have any kind
(12:08):
of post-traumatic stress oryou're stressed about something.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What tends to get disrupted Sleep Exactly.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
And so we have learned these theories and these
therapies of how we can I hateto say, artificially impact, but
I think that's appropriate thatwe can artificially impact our
brains by replicating a piece ofthat REM sleep.
And so when you think aboutwhen sleep isn't disrupted, and
(12:37):
if we're protective of sleep,then how you know how powerful
could that be for us.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Right, yeah, and look anything in life that can help
us deal with the things thatcome along that are difficult,
but also even the joys of lifecan keep us awake sometimes.
But what are some commonfactors that can interrupt sleep
?
You mentioned one stress,anxiety.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
You know one common factor I think that's really
simplistic is we don't turn allthe lights off in the room.
It's a well-lit room.
In other words, in order tosleep, we have a cold, dark
space and so temperature, light,artificial light.
(13:27):
I know that a lot of our smartnot so smart devices put off
ambient light.
Smart not so smart devices putoff ambient light and, um you
know, going into the evening,are we around, are we?
It's?
It's interesting because mywife, your sister-in-law, loves
her sleep.
She's a woman who loves hersleep.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
She's obviously extremely smart.
She's brilliant, extremelysmart.
She's brilliant.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
And she.
One of the things that shenaturally does is when, when it,
when the sun starts to go down.
She starts lowering lights inthe house so that there's not a
lot of our artificial lightcoming into our eyes.
Because, if you'll notice, ifyou wake up and you go let's say
(14:15):
you wake up in the middle ofthe night and you go to the
restroom If you do that in thedark, it doesn't wake you up as
much.
But if you turn on your phoneor turn on the light or you do
something that lights up theroom, you're immediately, then
you're waking yourself upfurther.
Then you're, you're, you'rewaking yourself up further.
(14:40):
And so her whole thought is andshe's actually right about this
is that when, when it start,when the sun goes down, start
turning down the lights.
I know some neuroscientists whoare.
I think you know they're soguarded of their sleep, which I
understand why they will put redfilters over their lights and
(15:00):
that they will turn on the redfilters at night so that all of
the light that's coming to themis red filtered light, which
does not wake the brain up asmuch.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
OK, that is fascinating, you know, because
light is often, sometimes whatwe seek, if we're not fans of
darkness.
You know there are some folkswho don't like to sleep with it
too dark, but I think there's away to tone that light down.
Yes, and that's so helpful.
So what I'm hearing you say istemperature is important.
(15:31):
Yes, maybe avoiding too muchlight.
What is something else that?
A couple of other things thatmight be helpful.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
So this may sound, this may sound counterintuitive,
but if if you're strugglingwith sleep, waking up with the
sun and going outside with thesunrise and taking in, now, do
not stare at the sun.
I am not suggesting that youstare at the sun, but looking at
the clouds, looking at theblues and the reds and the
(16:03):
oranges and all of that, liketaking all of that in.
In other words, don't wake upand put sunglasses on, depending
on what type of glasses youwear.
It won't filter out that stuff,but it's best to just have the
naked eye ingesting that and yes, ingesting that because there's
(16:23):
only two nerves your opticalnerves, so your eyes, and your
olfactory nerves, so your smellor your nose.
Those are the only two nervesthat go directly into your brain
.
The rest goes through yourbrainstem and so when you ingest
that morning light, it startsthe production of melatonin.
(16:47):
You think, well, wait, I thoughtmelatonin was for sleep.
Yes, but it begins in thatmorning rhythm.
And so wake up with the sun and, conversely, go to bed with the
sun.
You may think, well, golly, Ican't go to bed that early, and
we'll talk about that in amoment.
But maybe you can't and don't,push yourself and don't shame,
(17:11):
for the love of all things, pureand holy, do not shame yourself
for that there's a reason.
Exactly.
But when the sun goes down, gooutside, take a walk around the
block Again, ingest that sunsetAgain.
Don't stare at the sun, but dolook at the sunset and take that
(17:32):
in, because it helps put yourbody on a good rhythm that it
understands.
Okay, it's now nighttime andwhen you go back in, just keep
your lights a little more dim orput the red filter on them.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
That's great and that is a great reminder too.
That goes all the way back towhy we're even talking about the
importance of sleep is that ourmind and our body are so
connected and so vital in takingcare of those things that we've
got to remember that all ofthose factors are sending a
(18:07):
signal to our body to do what itwas designed to do and we're
moving out of the way thoseinterrupting factors hopefully.
Just for look, it's just forovernight.
And how are we going to getacross that bridge of despair to
hope if we don't start kind ofmoving those things out of the
(18:27):
way?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Well, in one sleep scientist who's a friend of mine
said.
He said that what sparked hisinterest in grad school was the
fact that we spend a third ofour life asleep.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So true, so say more about that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, we spend a third of our life asleep, so why
wouldn't it be an importanttheme, absolutely?
And when he looked into that orwhen, when that's what sparked
him and I started thinking aboutit from that perspective and he
and I started talking about allthese themes that go into sleep
and what all happens in yourbrain and all that.
(19:03):
I just again, we spend a thirdof our life asleep, so it has to
be something that we pay closeattention to.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
And prioritize Right and prioritize.
You know, some of us havebought into the like, the
mythical thinking that I onlyneed three or four hours of
sleep and I'll be fine, and youknow, that's kind of like saying
I only need to eat one certainthing or I only need to not eat
(19:33):
so many times, and believingthat kind of mythical thinking.
But we're not listening to ourbodies.
So this is super important.
So do you have some specifictips?
First of all, I know you'vementioned the red light, I know
you've mentioned the sun, butwhat about that old nasty stress
and adverse event thing orrelational interruptions?
(19:57):
What do we do with that?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
That's such a great question.
I think that, first andforemost, I know a lot of people
not a lot.
I know people wear sleeptrackers.
I wear one, my watch tracks mysleep and so I'm looking at on a
daily basis how much time did Isleep Did it?
How much REM did I get in mysleep?
(20:21):
And it's a gross estimate, butit it is.
But it's watching my heart rateto determine about where I am
with things.
It tells me deep sleep, remsleep, light sleep, how often
did I wake up in the night?
Based on my movement?
And I know that I love data andI can totally geek out on data,
(20:42):
but I also know that I cannotbe distracted by the data.
I know that.
You know, I was just with oneof my kids for the weekend at an
event for her school and I wassuper excited and I started
(21:02):
thinking at a certain time.
I'm like, well, I'm reallysleepy, but I thought I don't
want to give this time up.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And who cares?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
if I only get five hours of sleep tonight and so we
want to be careful that wedon't become rigid with our
bridge from despair to hope man,that's great yes.
But that it's more of aprinciple that we're guarding
(21:29):
sleep but we're not covetingsleep.
Right sleep, and if we'reanxious, it's okay to be anxious
.
We don't need to become anxious, then, about our anxiety,
because then we're going to havesleep anxiety.
And so if you find yourselffeeling anxious about sleep and
am I getting enough?
(21:49):
Is it the right kind?
And I would encourage you to,just as much as you can,
radically accept the fact thatyou're going to do the best you
can with what's in front of youand maybe you need to get up out
of bed and you need to justreset.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
And then you can try to go back into bed with a
mindset of, hey, I'm going to dothe best I can, I'm going to
get the sleep that I can get andI'm going to move through this
in a way that is not trying toforce something.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
That is so important.
I'm glad you brought that up,because rigidity takes us often
down.
It'd be like driving withoutGPS and continuing around the
same square block or detour orwhatever.
We just don't get where we wantto go.
That's right.
And so I think by being lessrigid and more open and flexible
(22:48):
, but intentional at the sametime, then we find that sleep
becomes less of a nemesis andmore of a partner.
Yeah, I love that, you know.
I mean, I think too, if we canfind a place to park some of our
cares.
You know, with this acceleratedresolution therapy, part of the
(23:11):
mantra is we're not doing awaywith the facts, we're just
creating new images andsensations in our body.
And so what's wrong with, kindof right before going to sleep,
reminding ourself that we canenvision Remember the old count,
the sheep jumping over thefence or whatever?
(23:31):
I mean, that would stress meout.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
What if?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
that sheep falls.
What's chasing them?
You know we don't want to haveimages that create anxiety for
us, but we do want to, you know,just find ourself in a pleasant
place, not an anticipatory.
Oh no, I know I'm going to wakeup at three o'clock, right?
You know, do you find that thathaving narrative um narrative
(23:57):
management?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I like that.
That's actually brilliant,because what it's setting your
mind on these, these?
Well, let me get.
Let me come at it a differentway.
I, when I, when I'm laying myhead down to go to sleep, if I'm
not already asleep by the timemy head hits the pillow, then
what I'm doing is going throughthe positive things in my day.
(24:21):
That's my time of gratitude.
What am I thankful for, what amI grateful for?
And it's a time of meditationand prayer for me, of you know
what.
God, thank you for this day andthank you for this thing.
Thank you for that thing.
Thank you for this day andthank you for this thing.
Thank you for that thing, thankyou for this person and thank
you for this dynamic, and itreally like.
(24:41):
It's like wow, I have a reallygreat life and I'm just like you
know, and it's it really.
I think that can be a reallyneat exercise to not only put us
in gratitude but also to staveaway some of those worries,
because even when I havesomething the next day that I'm
(25:03):
stressed by or worried about,one of the exercises I do is
trying to be grateful for thethings I can be grateful about
in that stressful thing.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Oh, that is so powerful, and you know this, and
I can't name the exact study,but there was a study done on
gratitude and functional MRIresearch at the same time, and
what was discovered was thatneural pathways it was.
They called it a cognitiveexpander.
So in other words, we it's liketaking an expander and dropping
(25:38):
it into that neural pathway andwidening it.
It doesn't mean you'll alwaysthink differently, it just means
you have more room to thinkdifferently.
And that's where you know thereare a lot of things that happen
during the day that maybe we'renot grateful for and we could
spin out thinking on that, right, right, but then that's driving
(25:58):
the bus.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
It is, and I also want to say some of those things
that we may not be grateful for, may legitimately not be things
that hold gratitude.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Well, no kidding.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
In other words, I don't want to and I know you're
not saying this Right I don'twant our listeners to think what
we're saying is that we have toput a Pollyanna Band-Aid over
things and I know you're notsaying that it's that place of
there are some things in lifethat are just really difficult
and we have to just see it, nameit and say, yep, that's
(26:31):
difficult or that was traumatic,or that was painful.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
You know, and that reminds me and this is kind of
what I think we're saying.
I'm kind of excited about this.
I certainly wouldn't want toeat a heavy meal while I'm
working out really hard that'sright or running a marathon.
That would prevent my body fromdoing what I'm asking it to do
that's right.
So I'm asking my body to go tosleep, so I want to make sure
(26:57):
I'm giving it every opportunityto do so by not doing something
else.
And that is ruminating oneverything that went wrong that
day.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
That's it.
And it's funny, a very goodfriend of mine was telling me.
He said I don't know that Idream and I said, oh, I bet you
do, you just don't recall them.
And he was like okay, then howdo I recall my dreams?
And I said, well, you wouldstart by basically alerting your
(27:25):
body to the awareness that youwant to recall your dreams.
And I said when you findyourself rising out of sleep,
make a mental note to scan.
Did I dream anything?
Well, I, I, I saw him today and, uh, I ran into him and he said
I did, I do dream, I rememberedmy dream and we went through
(27:47):
that, like he went through thisdream, and I said well, what
sense do you make of that?
And he talked through somethings that you know.
He thought that it could be andwhat's interesting is is he, he
illuminated the fact that hewas working through some
emotions.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (28:08):
And I to your point.
I don't want to eat a heavymeal right before I work or
while I'm working out.
That is brilliant.
I love that analogy becauseyou're spot on and you think
about what are you doing whenyou work out.
right, you're lifting heavythings, you're running fast,
running far you know running,you know hard, or however you
(28:30):
want to say it.
Well, what does dreaming do forus?
It sorts out those things thatwe don't in our conscious
awareness.
We don't have that space forright.
So our brain shut, I mean ourbody is.
You know, we have sleepparalysis, right?
The only two things that itdoesn't paralyze is our eye
(28:51):
movement and our diaphragm.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Oh really.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
The rest of our body is paralyzed.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
And so your eyes move during sleep and you still
breathe.
The rest of your body is down,Otherwise we would be acting out
our dreams.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
And your heart's beating.
Yes, well, right, yes, that's agiven.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
There are sleep disorders that I, I, I want to
just touch on that.
Sometimes your body doesn't gointo sleep paralysis that the
you may have night terrors ornight you know, sleepwalking and
there are those aspects and ifthat is something that a person
struggles with, I hope that theywill see a sleep specialist to
(29:38):
help them sort that out.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Or sleep apnea Right, right, oh gosh, sleep apnea,
that is so critical that canlead to premature death.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
I mean, you stop breathing, right.
And you know some people think,well, yeah, that's just going
to happen and I'm not going todo that, and.
But if you can breathe whenyou're awake, then you need to
be able to breathe when you'reasleep.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Most definitely.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
And I just can't caution enough If you have sleep
apnea or if you snore.
There there are CPAP and BiPAPmachines.
Now, a lot of sleep scientistsdon't love the CPAP and BiPAP
machines because it thatpositive airflow into your nasal
(30:31):
passage they, they believe iscan be very disruptive to the
sleep process and you may notget into that deep sleep.
It may prevent you from hittingthe different uh levels cycles
of sleep yeah, However, there'smouth pieces, there's a head
(30:51):
placements, there's ways toadjust yourself.
If you believe that you or yourpartner has a sleep disorder
like sleep apnea, that issomething that I strongly
encourage you to seek like.
Do a sleep study, do some, youknow the the studies that are
(31:27):
being done with, especially withpregnant, the studies that are
being done especially withpregnant women who have sleep ap
does have an impact on theunborn child.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Oh, that's because oxygenation is so important.
I think that's why pregnantwomen are encouraged not to
allow their heart rate to getpast a certain level when
they're working out or whatever,just so that there's good blood
flow and oxygen's notrestricted in any way.
So that is super helpful.
Well, I know there are othersleep disorders.
(32:02):
There's apnea, there's maybesome night terrors.
Maybe there are others that you, I mean, would you consider
insomnia, or is that just amisused term?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
No, I think that you're right.
Insomnia due to stress orinsomnia due to some other cause
that doesn't allow a person totheir body, just doesn't shut
down there.
You know, we they stay in thatheightened sympathetic state.
There you go, Whereas you know,sympathetic is the they call it
(32:37):
the fight or flight.
There's there's other parts tothe sympathetic system, but
there's also the parasympathetic, which is the rest and digest.
But what's interesting is isthat there's a balance to both
right.
You can overdo the sympatheticwhere you're in that fight or
flight, and you can overdoparasympathetic where it
actually pair.
Overdoing parasympathetic leadsyou to coma and death, and so
(33:01):
it's all a balance right.
And so, um you, you want, youwant to help the body get down
into that resting space where,again, you do, you can do
breathing exercises, you can douh, you know, the the box,
breathing.
Oh yes, three square, foursquare.
(33:22):
Some people do five squarebreathing.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Um.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
I know that some people do the the inhale where
it's where they take that inhaleand then they take that last
big breath in.
And that's helpful for you know, calming the body, getting into
that, moving more towards thatparasympathetic system.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
So, kind of going back to that word, insomnia.
What I'm hearing you say and Imay be totally off on this, so
please correct this, but it'salmost like that is a spectrum
for people who have troublesleeping and if you just hold on
to that, that maybe you misswhat's underlying.
Is that what I'm hearing yousay?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
I think that's a neat way to say that.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Okay, so like perhaps highly anxious or someone
struggling with depression, thatmay be underlying what's
creating the state of insomnia.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, okay, I think that's a neat way to say that.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Okay, so not to just hang the moniker of insomnia.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Oh well, I just have insomnia, Okay.
So it's work through some ofthese tips and and, uh, healthy
ways, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
There's a uh CBT which it has its place.
Yeah, it has its place Um CBT I, cbt CBT cognitive behavioral
therapy insomnia.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Um, they have a.
There's a lot of tips andtricks that they utilize there
of like you through theirpainful dreams, like having
nightmares, stuff.
That accelerated resolution,therapy uh, therapy is when you
have a repetitive nightmarethat's very thematic, that the
(35:40):
therapist will work with you tohave them to create an alternate
ending.
There you go and that alternateending you can say that like
one.
One example is if, if, uh, ifyou're, if you're being chased
through, uh, a, a small townwhere you get trapped by a man
who you believe is coming to doharm, well, you change the
(36:03):
ending to say, no, he was comingto alert you that you just won
the lottery.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
And it was an exciting dream.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I'll let you know tomorrow if I dream that Right
Go ahead.
I dream that Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
But it's the power of suggestion in our minds that
helps us move to a differentpart of that dream that we can
change, that we can have agencyover that.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
And I love that.
We as human beings are sogeared and so wired to want
options.
We want the power of choice,boy, that's true, and I think
sometimes we think we have noauthority or power over some of
the functions in our body.
And I'm not saying that, wejust will it into existence.
(36:49):
Right, right, and I know thatthere are statements like I
manifested that or whatever, butthat's really all that that is
saying is that we get to choosehow we're going to think about
something.
So is that why the admonitionnot to let the sun go down on
your anger?
Is that?
Why do you think that playsinto the fact that, obviously,
(37:12):
sleep is a part of our natural,created way of existing?
Speaker 3 (37:17):
a need, a natural need yes, I, I think that is and
I'm that's.
That's an interesting uh uhtopic to bring up, because I
think all too often we thinkI've heard young married couples
who say we stayed up until twoin the morning because we didn't
want to let the sun go down onour anger and I said wait, I
(37:38):
want you to go back and I wantyou to reread what that says
Don't let the sun go down onwhat?
On your anger.
It doesn't mean that you gowork that out relationally.
It means you work that outinternally.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Right, you calm the emotion.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
In you.
Okay, you understand it, youcalm it, because oftentimes we
orient ourselves to other peoplerather than first orienting
ourselves to us.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
That is so good.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
And what happens is is if I orient myself to someone
else, I feel a sense of a lossof control, because you are
making me angry and it's like no, let's look what is anger.
Anger is an injustice.
Has an injustice been done oram I disappointed because an
expectation wasn't met?
(38:31):
And if an expectation wasn'tmet, then I can sit with
disappointment differently thanI can sit with an injustice.
Right, and so I I think thatyou're right that understanding
how to name our emotions andunderstand what did I truly feel
there is important, andespecially, like what you're
(38:51):
saying before I go to sleep,that it's not something massive
that's overwhelming me.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Oh, that is so important for all of us to
understand.
I think, too, we confuse thefact that our emotions are
taking us to a conclusioninstead of opening up a pathway
for curiosity.
It's giving us a clue.
It's not leading us necessarilyto a conclusion.
(39:17):
The conclusion comes later.
But you know, way back at thebeginning of our conversation
you said that it unlocks theparts of our brain to figure
something out, right?
So maybe, um, just calming theanger will allow us to wake up
and solve our relationaldifferences in a completely
(39:39):
different way than what westarted out with.
That made us have such anintense emotion.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yes, and you think about how emotions get
heightened when you're tired.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
You think?
Speaker 3 (39:48):
about the toddler that's throwing a fit and the
parent who apologizes, it's.
Oh, I'm sorry they missed theirnap, oh good point.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
That's legit.
That is legit that isabsolutely legit and that's why.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
I tell these young couples that are trying not to
let the sun go down on their ownanger is what it says but that
it's like wait, take a rest,take a break, take a beat,
whatever you want to take, buttake some time and rest, Let
yourself get a differentperspective and then re-engage
with one another, and it doesn'tmean you're ignoring the
(40:21):
problem Not at all.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
You're not sweeping it under the rug, that's right.
It just means that you'regiving yourself, your brain, a
chance to rest and get thatRoomba out.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Clean up the junk.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
That's right, clean it all up.
So you know.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Is there any one thing that youwant to say that you haven't
had the opportunity to say?
That you want to leave peoplewith?
Speaker 3 (40:45):
today there actually is, and one of the things that I
want to make sure we cover ispeople ask is there an ideal
bedtime?
And the answer to that is kindof I love that answer.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Is there an ideal budget, kind of.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
But the ideal bedtime .
One of the things that isreally important for us to know
is there is this term called achronotype and chronotype.
Chronotype is that there's is.
When is your natural rhythm?
To sleep Okay, meaning are youan early to bed person, are you
(41:25):
a moderate to middle pathbedtime person, or are you a
super late to bed person?
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
If you are an early to bed person, then asking you
to stay up past that now foragain, not rigidity, flexibility
, but repetitively asking youthat would be like an eight 39
o'clock bedtime.
And if that's your naturalbodily rhythm, your chronotype,
(41:54):
then asking you to stay up until11, because you know, every
Saturday or you know, everycouple of nights, there's this
show on that we love to watchand I really want you to stay up
.
Chances are you're not going tobe able to, but it's also if
you're.
If you do stay up past thatnatural chronotype bedtime,
you're not going to get as greata sleep and your body's going
(42:17):
to naturally wake up super early.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Right, because if you go to bed, early, you naturally
wake up early.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
If you go to bed at a moderate hour, you naturally
wake up at a moderate time.
Okay, If you go to bed superlate, you're going to wake up
kind of late, and you know, alot of times people assign a
judgment to that and say, oh,responsible the early bird gets
the worm.
I don't really like worms, Idon't want the worm.
(42:45):
But you know you think aboutthat and how often we assign
value to that.
There is no value to whetheryou go to bed early or go to bed
late, it's do.
Did you get sleep and can youorient your life to the timings
that you, to your chronotype?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
That is phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
The other part that I would feel remiss if I did not
say parents of teenagers, turnup the volume please.
Right now, parents of teenagers, please hear me.
When you are going throughpuberty and your adolescence,
your natural chronotype iskicked to a later phase.
(43:25):
That's why teenagers naturallystay up late and naturally want
to sleep.
Please, please, parents,parents, let them sleep.
And I'm not saying let themsleep till two o'clock and let
them stay up till two.
I'm not saying that.
But please don't kick open thedoor and tell them that they're
(43:47):
lazy If they're sleeping late.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
I just I want to encourage you.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
I just I want to encourage you.
Teenagers of all people needtheir sleep.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
So powerful.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
School time is usually super early, and so
you're disrupting their sleepfive days out of the week, and
if their chronotype is not, mostteenagers, like I said, their
chronotype gets kicked to later,and so they're going to
struggle to go to bed early andthen you're waking them up early
, disrupting the amount of sleepthat they're getting.
(44:20):
So, on the weekends we don'tbank sleep, but at least try to
let them catch up on some.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
That is so good.
And you know, parents, we'renot Navy SEALs.
Our job is not to kick downdoors.
Parents, we're not Navy SEALs.
Our job is not to kick downdoors.
And even a Navy SEAL goes intoa room and is curious before
they come to a conclusion.
That's right, and so I think,being a curious parent, how can
I support you while you're goingthrough this phase of your life
(44:49):
, rather than you're lazy is agood technique to use, and
you're allowing them to developa healthier brain.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
That's right.
You know, and healthier brain,healthier body.
You're right about developingconnection and what's
interesting is, your kid willgrow.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Isn't that great.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Physically grow.
You look at kids who didn't getgood sleep when they were
younger and I wonder and I don'thave evidence for this per se,
but I wonder that you knowpeople who've been through
trauma, people who didn't getgood sleep.
It really disrupts their growth.
When you have other kids whoare, are, you know, like we know
(45:29):
now, I think about thisgeneration that's coming up now
and how much taller they arethan their parents.
Oftentimes I look around andsee so many kids that are
outgrowing their parents heightwise and you think we now know
how to make it darker in therooms.
We know that we that uh to makeit cooler in rooms.
We have that available to us.
Nor we have the ability to tocreate good space for sleep and
(45:54):
how kids are just shooting upheight-wise and I just can't
help but think that there'ssomething in there that's really
correlated with that.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
I agree, and that sounds like sleep nutrition as
well as food nutrition, that is,it combines.
Mental health, nutrition.
I mean all of that.
Like we said, our body is, youknow, mind, body, spirit.
So all of that works togetherfor us to grow and be healthy.
Thank you so much for sharingall of this great information
(46:27):
with us.
I know you've studied hard andI know that you've delved very
deeply into this, because it isconnected to our mental health,
our emotional health, ourspiritual health, our physical
health.
So thank you for that.
I so appreciate you taking thetime to share that with all of
us.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Oh my gosh, and thank you for being with us today.
It's always fun to be with you.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Well, thank you.
Right back at you.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
If you found value in our discussion and wish to
uncover more about thefascinating world of Right back
at.
You is just beginning and we'reexcited to have you with us
every step of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
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