December 17, 2024 • 36 mins
In this special episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with his daughter, Ella, for an open and heartfelt conversation about her experiences growing up as the child of a therapist. Together, they explore the dynamics, challenges, and lessons that come with living in a family rooted in mental health. This discussion offers a personal perspective on family relationships, communication, and the impact of a therapist's work on their loved ones. Join us for an insightful and reflective episode that highlights the balance between personal and professional life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and today'sepisode is incredibly special to
me.
I'm joined by my daughter, ella, and we explore what it's like
growing up as a child of atherapist.
Together we'll shareconversations about the
challenges, funny moments andlessons that come with being a
part of a family deeply rootedin mental health.
(00:23):
Lessons that come with being apart of a family deeply rooted
in mental health.
Join us as we reflect on ourexperiences, offer insights into
family dynamics, communicationand the balance between personal
and professional life your pathto mental wellness starts here,
Hi Ella, Hi Dad.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Is that weird to hear ?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, it is In a podcast.
So welcome Ella to Beyond theCouch.
It's good to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Thank you, it's good to be here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So one of the things that we thought we would cover
in this podcast is what it'slike to grow up with or to have
parent, family member, friend,any close person that is a
mental health professional, andso we thought why not bring in
an expert?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
That's me.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah, so you've been around a mental health
professional for most all ofyour life.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
True, all of my life, not most of all of it, yeah
Well you all of your life, trueAll of my life, not most of all
of it.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, well, you went away to school.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
That's true.
So tell us kind of thehighlights of what it's been
like for you growing up with amental health professional in
your home.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah Well, it was always the norm for me, so I
didn't know any better.
Um, but I knew I didn't knowyou did, for obviously you just
went to work for most of 10years, I think, and then I
realized what you did.
And then, once I realized whatyou did, um, I knew you talked
to people and you did somethingwith their brain and you fixed
(02:04):
them.
You talked to people and youdid something with their brain
and you fixed them, and Ithought you could read my brain
every time you spoke to me.
So I could never hide anything,because I thought he was going
to figure it out just by lookinginto my eyes.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
So you kind of felt like I was a human x-ray machine
Pretty much.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah so.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I love that and I hate that for you at the same
time, because autonomy is, Ithink, very important.
When you're growing up andknowing that you get to be your
own person, that you weren'tlike, I would have never wanted
you to ever think that we wouldbe in your head trying to make
you be a certain way.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
And I don't think that, I don't think you're
trying to make me a certain way.
I think you just, whatever wayI decided to be, you were going
to know.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, you know which is funny because that's that's
relationship, though, right,like, whatever way you decide to
be, we're going to know becausewe're close to each other.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I just thought it was more scientific than that, like
it was an like, literally likehow we had, like I had an x-ray
machine, yeah, you could see mythoughts.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You could see whoa I thought I thought you were like.
Um, like you know people thatcan read body language super
well, to the point where, like,you know exactly what's going on
, or like, if someone lies andthey like have a certain twitch
or whatever that, like you wouldpick up on that, no matter what
.
Yeah Well maybe you canpartially true, ish I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
But I also think that people who do that, who read,
read people for you know, fortheir profession, and I think
that part of therapy is readingpeople.
But really one of the mythsthat I hope we can dispel is
that it's not about, like.
I remember part of my career.
I thought I was like adetective, you know, like I
(03:58):
needed to understand, like, areyou lying to me?
Are you telling the truth?
It's like at some point youreally sit back and you think
it's not about trying todetermine whether you're lying
to me or not.
It's really trying to determinewho you are and what is it that
you're bringing to this to thissession and what is it that
you're trying to get out of thissession?
(04:20):
Because if you're lying to me,okay, like why?
Because if you're lying to me,okay, like why?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
And what service does that?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
pay you.
Did that make sense?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's more about like the intention behind what you do
, not what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Right.
And it's really more aboutdiscovering that and then
discovering who you are as theperson sitting across and
discovering what is it thatyou're coming for.
You know, and if if I mean I'veI've actually treated people
who didn't want to tell me likesome really horrible things that
had happened, I'm like that'sfine as long as we can talk
(04:58):
about the periphery of those.
Things Like I don't need to seeall the way into the depths of
your well of your life.
Things like I don't need to seeall the way into the depths of
your well of your life, butcould it be that I'm just
learning how things impacted you?
yeah if that makes sense I thinkso cool.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think one of the things we were talking about
that is interesting is, like you, you were saying that raising
me, mental health, was always onthe top of the priority list.
Yeah, above, not above,parenting, because you were
parenting.
But you know what I'm trying tosay Like above giving rules and
(05:34):
like being a dictator, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think maybe some parents lean more towards that
way and it's harder to see likethe mental health aspect of the
kid.
I don't know if you havethoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I do.
I think.
I think that, if you considerwhat we're trying to rate, like,
what are we trying to raise?
We're not raising a child,we're raising an adult Right,
like that was.
That was our goal was always toraise up individuals who were
going to go into the world andbe contributing citizens, and
(06:11):
that we're going to have a deepfaith and a deep sense of
understanding and knowing,knowledge and experience of God
and of who they are and of whothey are.
And so teaching you or providingground for you to find who you
are and what you want to do andwho you want to become and who
(06:34):
you were designed and developedto be Like, that was, to me, the
utmost importance, because Idon't want you to be who I want
you to be.
I want you to be who you weredesigned to be, and I remember,
(06:58):
when you were born, looking atyou because you're our first and
looking at you and thinking man, I don't know you and I would
give anything for you, I wouldgive my life, but I don't know
you and I would give anythingfor you.
I would give my life, but Idon't know you, and I can't wait
to spend the rest of my lifegetting to know you and I just
that was such a I don't want tosay a primal thought, but that
(07:20):
was such an instinctual thoughtof the first time I met you and
thinking about that like it'slike I still am enjoying getting
to know you.
I mean, I know you, but it'sthe enjoyment of getting to know
you for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Does that make?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
sense what I mean by that.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, like the relationship aspect of it more
so than the parent aspect of it.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The relationship aspect of it and the discovery
aspect of it.
The discovery is so much partof a relationship I mean, I've
been married for almost whatwould be 24 years and it's like
I still love discovering who mywife is.
People think, oh well, don'tyou know her by now?
(08:08):
Well, yeah, but I also knowthat as we grow, as we, as we
age or mature, there's aspectsof us that can change, and so
it's like great, I don't want usto be static for the rest of
our lives, I want us to continueto grow, and as I grow and as
she grows, it's like how, how dowe get to know that growth?
(08:29):
Through discovery?
Same thing with you and yoursiblings.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, so early on in my career, I taught parenting
classes and we, we would go tovarious locations and we would
teach, teach this class.
And the parenting class wasvery much founded upon
connection and relationship.
(08:56):
And I remember, when you weretwo and we were teaching this
class at a, at a pretty large,um, pretty large place, and, uh,
you, we were pretty cool withyou dressing yourself and we
wanted you to have you know.
You, we wanted you to havechoices and your choice that day
(09:17):
was like some rain boots andboots and an outfit that didn't
match, which, again, we didn'tcare, it was fine, it was your
choice.
And again, I'm not saying thatif parents care about that, that
that's a bad thing.
That was just a place that wewere willing to bend, willing to
bend, and you were marchingaround in your little rain boots
(09:40):
and, uh, you're, you were avery compliant child, for
whatever reason, that day youwere not having whatever it was
and you let out a really loudscreech in the in the uh, uh
foyer of this, of this buildingI mean, it was all hard surfaces
(10:00):
, so it was loud and it echoed.
And I just remember one of theparticipants who had a really
loud, booming voice was like,okay, parenting guy, let's see
what you've got.
And it was such a pivotal momentfor me as a dad because I
(10:21):
remember thinking like, who isthis for?
Is this for them?
Like to show them what theparenting guy has, or is this
between me and you?
And, unfortunately, everybody'swatching?
But is this between me and you?
And it was almost like I was inthe matrix and time stood still
.
But that thought of who is thisfor and is this between me and
(10:47):
you, or is this between me andthem?
And thank God, he helped mechoose appropriately.
He helped me chooseappropriately and it was between
me and you and it was like thatwas a decision that I feel like
I got to make at a reallypivotal time in being a dad.
And it was like I, it wasalmost like he allowed me to
(11:14):
block everything else out.
And you and I talked it throughand, yes, you were two and, yes,
we talked with each other.
You and I talked it through and, yes, you were too, and, yes,
we talked with each other.
No, I wasn't reasoning with atwo-year-old, but I needed to
connect with you because we werevery disconnected in that
moment.
And I think I knelt down and Ithink I said you're frustrated.
You're like, yes, and you know,we and I was like you're
(11:35):
frustrated and I don't know why.
And you were able to, in a veryfrustrated tone, tell me why
you were frustrated.
And then we walked through thatand it was I wanted a donut or
whatever it was.
And it was like, well, you knowwhat?
We're not going to have donuts,we're actually going to go eat
lunch.
And you were frustrated and Iwas able to say, and I get that
(11:57):
you're frustrated, and yet thelimit still stands.
We hugged, we connected and itwas funny because after it was
over, the guy with the bigbooming voice just kind of
started slow clapping Like youknow, good job, parenting guy.
I guess it does work.
And it was kind of funnybecause part of me wondered
later, like wonder if he thinkswe staged that, because if we
(12:19):
had, that would have been reallygood show right it would have
been brilliant, because youreally like you.
You responded perfectly toreally yeah to all the parenting
techniques we were teaching.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So one thing I wanted to ask, like as I got older and
like maybe we had moredisagreements along the way,
like how do you feel like beinga therapist?
Did you like?
What kind of ways or ways ofdealing with conflict did you
take from that and apply toconflicts that I had as your
daughter?
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I, I, I think that the conflicts, the, the subjects
may have changed, but thepathway to deal with them didn't
.
From that conflict, when youwere two in the foyer of that
building, it was always.
You know, when there's aconflict, the hope is that
you're able to connect.
(13:11):
And if there was conflictbetween us, it was always to
find that place that there'sconnection between us and to say
, okay, we're we're connectinghere, but maybe there's friction
here.
So let's take the place thatwe're connected and let's move
that towards the friction.
And if that means that I needto sit back and listen, even if
(13:35):
I don't agree, I want to hearyou and I feel like you were
always good at that too, oflistening, even if, even if I
don't agree, I want to hear youand I feel like you were always
good at that too, of listening,even if, even if you didn't
agree.
And I feel like there's alwaysbeen that back and forth of
connection.
That's why, when you say youknow mental health was so
important, like, did youconsider that more important
than the, than being a parent?
(13:55):
And you're saying, yeah, butthat is parenting.
It really was to me.
What I was, what we were tryingto preserve, was connection
Like that, if we could stayattached you know the
psychological term would beattachment Wanted to make sure
we all, we wanted to make surethat you, you and your siblings,
like that, we have a secureattachment, that we feel safe
(14:18):
with one another another, safeenough to say I disagree,
because I think that's important.
Disagreeing is important.
I don't, I don't want littlecarbon copies running around
Like I want you all to be whoGod designed you to be, and so I
think, in conflict, it's amatter of saying okay, I know
that I love you and I know thatyou love me, and so let's, let's
(14:41):
start from that premise andthen let's figure out where do
we disagree and why?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, I see, I think one of the things I've heard a
lot from like a lot of people islike they feel like their
parents aren't like emotionallyavailable, like I think that's a
word that I hear often abouttheir experience with the family
.
How do you feel, like, do youthink your experience as a
counselor has made you moreemotionally available, or do you
(15:08):
think you as a person like?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
No, I definitely wholeheartedly think it's
because of my profession.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Really.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
In what way?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Because I think I understand, because of all that
I've learned academically, howimportant intentionality is.
And had I chosen a differentprofession or been called to a
different profession, I don'tknow that I would have paid
attention to that.
I mean, hopefully I would, yeahRight, but I don't know.
(15:37):
Yeah, mean hopefully I wouldyeah, Right, but I don't know.
Yeah, but I would say I wouldsay and I often say thank God
that that I was called into thisprofession, that this is the
career that I chose for myself.
However you want to see it, Ioften say I'm so grateful for
that because I don't know that Iwould have understand or would
(16:01):
have understood the impact of mybehavior on those in my home.
If that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, for sure, I think I've always been very
thoughtful about things and Ithink that came from you.
I've always been veryanalytical of what happens in
situations and I've noticed thata lot more recently as an adult
and learning how I navigatedifferent situations.
But mom was telling me as a kid, when I would play Littles Pet
(16:35):
Shops, she would, um, I'd askher like so, if the little's pet
shop were to like I don't know,eat the whole jar of cookies,
what would would she get introuble and why?
And it was just a constant likekind of trying to use the toys
to kind of figure out what, howthe life worked, pretty much, um
(16:59):
, what was allowed and whatwasn't allowed yeah I'm not.
Maybe that was a subconsciousthing that came from having a
therapist dad.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But maybe so.
At the same time, I thinkthat's a real natural, uh,
developmental play is to askquestions, to be curious.
I think it's more about yourpersonhood and the freedom that
(17:28):
you felt as a kid to be able totry things out.
That's why.
That's why kids lie likesometimes people will come to us
and think, oh my gosh, my kid'sa pathological liar.
You know they they spilled somemilk and said a goat did it,
and you're like, yeah, it's partof their developmental process.
Some, some, approach it throughplay, like what you're talking
(17:51):
about, and play therapy is a lotabout that, where you, you
learn from their play, from thechild's play, what is it that
they're processing, and so youprocessing and navigating those
themes in play makes a whole lotof sense, and it was.
I thought it was always reallysweet to watch you work those
(18:12):
things out, you know, but it's.
It's funny too, though, because, like I, because I forget where
mom and I were, but we werehaving a discussion We'll call
it a discussion, and it was adiscussion with a lot of
friction, and I think we wereboth kind of joking about some
(18:32):
of the friction, but I forgetwho was with us, but we were
talking about something and itwas like and I would like to
tell you where I am coming from,because my personhood would
like to say the and it was likewe were using some really
technical terms and whoever waswith us was kind of giggling
(18:54):
like, oh my gosh, y'all are suchdorks.
And like, do y'all always do itthis way?
I'm like no, you know, we don't.
We, we have good old fashioneddiscussions, um, but I think a
lot, a lot of times people think, as a therapist, you don't turn
it off, like you're analyzingyour family, you're analyzing
(19:15):
your friends, and I think, gosh,I don't.
I mean this with all the loveand respect in the world to all
those people close, but I don'twant to spend that kind of brain
power when I'm not working.
Yeah, you know, and so no, wedo turn it off.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah.
And no, we don't sit around andhave share your feelings
moments in the law, household, Imean, I think we do, but we
don't call we have discussions,we have discussions.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, good discussions right, but it's not
like.
Okay, everyone sit down.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It's five o'clock, it's time to share your emotions
you're gonna read all your bodylanguage and figure out
everything you've done this pastweek the emotional x-rays and
take your picture I think I've.
I think I've.
Like it's easy to take forgranted how lucky I am to have a
therapist dad because I'm usedto it and I hear people that
obviously don't have a therapistdad and it's like I don't know.
(20:08):
I become more and more gratefulfor it as I realize how and how
lucky I am to have that.
So I also love how this hasturned into like a a myth
debunking yeah, discussion yes,yes I think I was surprised by
(20:28):
because I think I don't know,maybe it was like 15 or 16 when
I came to you and said I wantedto like date, like could I be in
a relationship, is that allowed, with a little special um.
And I think I was surprisedwhen you said yes, um what?
And I, you encouraged it.
What was the intention behindthat?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You're right.
I did encourage it.
I would encourage that for allof you, because I think that I
want you to learn how tonavigate a broken heart.
I want you to learn how tonavigate that under my roof.
I want to make sure that whenyour heart gets broken, or when
(21:07):
you break somebody's heart orwhen you get hurt, that you know
, you know how to, or at leastyou have a, a, a principled
understanding of, like, how dowe walk through this?
And you know how do you makesure you continue to honor you?
And how do you, how do youhonor the person either whose
(21:28):
heart you're going to break orwho broke your heart?
And so I think that my wholething in parenting was always
figure out.
Let's figure out together howwe can say yes to this.
Now, there are things that theonly yes I can give you is if
the situation's completelydifferent.
(21:49):
So to this situation there'sjust not a yes in there.
So I don't want it to comeacross like, yeah, we're
permissive parents and you cando whatever you want.
It's.
It's not been that.
I mean, I don't think that wasyour experience.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Being super permissive?
Yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah.
I mean, I was also kids, that'strue, but I mean, even as a
teenager, you know like ourwhole goal with you was your
last.
It's, it's our goal with all ofour kids.
Is their last year under ourroof that you're pretty much
coming and going as you please.
It's all about respecting thehousehold, as opposed to.
(22:27):
You have a curfew and you havethis that you have to be like
we're going to.
You know, have all theseconflictual conversations with
you.
I want to, we wanted to haveand we still want to have
connected conversations, andthat may sound a little silly,
but what I mean by that is youknow, if, if?
(22:49):
It's well, what I mean by thatis is I want to be able to talk
through things with you.
So the best way to put thekibosh on talking through
situations with somebody is tobe unbending, inflexible and
unwilling to hear their side.
And so I mean we've hadsituations where we've allowed
(23:18):
things that may stretch otherpeople's limits.
So we've had friends who haveheard things that we've said yes
to and on the surface of it,they've given us a distinct
amount of grief, a truckload ofgrief over it, and my response
to them is always hold on, holdon, like let me tell you if, if,
if you're willing to hear.
Let me tell you the specificsand let me tell you the thought
(23:42):
pattern behind why, and let metell you all the principles that
were learned as a result.
And in inevitably and maybeit's because I'm a good salesman
, but inevitably they were likeoh okay, I see where you were
going with that.
(24:03):
Oh okay, well, so they learnedabout safety.
You were going with that.
Oh okay, well, so they learnedabout safety.
They learned experientially thetype of learning that you gain
through experience.
It's called procedural learningas opposed to task oriented
learning, and task oriented ismore like out of the book, and
(24:24):
yeah, it's important to read abook and learn things, but then
you go and do that thing and youlearn the procedure to do it.
And that's what I want you allto learn safety.
I want you all to learn what itmeans to have your wits about
you in the midst of somethingthat's stressful.
(24:45):
I want you to strategically, Iwant you to learn how to
strategically think thingsthrough so that you know you're
safe, so that you look.
I want you to have fun.
You know part of this life isabout enjoying right, and so I
want you to find things that youenjoy, and that's when, when
you know, laying some of thesethings out, it's like, yes,
(25:06):
we're going to find a way to sayyes if we can.
And if we can't say yes to that, then let's find something else
that we can say yes to that isgood for you, because if it's
not illegal, immoral, unbiblicalor unethical, we want to say
yes to it.
But those are our four pillarsIllegal, immoral, unbiblical and
(25:26):
unethical.
Those are our four pillars.
Illegal, immoral, unbiblicaland unethical.
Those are our four pillars.
Those are good.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, they're good pillars um, and I think, like in
those types of situations, likeyou said, it wasn't just a yes,
it was like a yes, but it hadboundaries to it you know, and I
think that's where, if peopleare giving you grief for being
too lenient, like that's whereit comes in.
We're like yeah, it was a yes,but there were these rules
(25:50):
around it.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, I like to refer to them as guidelines,
guidelines.
And maybe I didn't like theguidelines, but Maybe, but I
learned from them, right, andwhen you all don't like the
guidelines that we put out, it'slike I really want to.
We both really want tounderstand why.
Because that gives us, that'sthe x-ray that gives me insight
(26:14):
into you, and not so that we canmanipulate.
It's so that we can know.
It's a greater form in my mindand in your mom's mind.
It's a greater form in my mindand in your mom's mind.
It's a greater form ofconnection.
It's a greater form of beingwith each other and
understanding each other betteryou've always been very invested
(26:36):
in all three of our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think like you've, and it's like you've trying to
think of, like first, when I,when I, started in dance you're
always very involved in that andyou were dance dad, and then
Molly started horse riding.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But to be clear, I was dance dad from the audience.
I never got up.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
He was never on stage , never, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Fortunately for all the other people watching now,
it was not, but yes, I always.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
But you were the dance dad of the dance moms
group.
Yeah well, you were the dancedad of the dance moms group.
Yeah Well, you were there.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, you know it's like it's like on the way over
here, you said to me you're,you're off today and you're like
, oh, I'm sorry that I'mbringing you back to the office.
I'm like I don't care where wego, I just want to be together
and if you, if you're dancinglike I want to, I want to hang
(27:30):
out there because you'repassionate about it.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
So therefore, I'm passionate about it, yeah, and
that was an interesting I get,and also when I decided russia
sorority, or that was so fun youwere recruitment was the best.
It was more fun for you thanfor me.
You know why.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
It is so strategy laden.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Like it was like 3D chess, like I had so much fun,
like okay, what's the strategytoday?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
What dress are we going to wear?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you were going to kill it.
You were going to look amazingno matter what you wore, but it
was the whole idea of likegetting to be strategic.
I love strategy.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, but in that situation you were there for me,
for something that was going tobe beyond, like something that
you weren't ultimately a part ofbut, you were still super
invested in it and in myexperience, which I appreciated,
having sorority dad and now youhave all your sorority shirts.
Oh yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I love my sorority dad.
And now you have all yoursorority shirts.
Oh yeah, I love it.
I love my sorority shirts.
But the whole point in that forme was because it's a point of
connection with you.
It's so funny.
When your mom and I met, wewere just friends for a very
long time and I remember, youknow, she lived in Southeast
Asia for a period of time and Iremember being just friends and
(28:50):
people saying why are you flyingover there to visit her?
I'm like because she's there,like that's her experience there
, and I want to see and be apart of what she's experiencing.
And yes, it worked to myadvantage when she came home and
married me not much long afterthat, um, but I wanted to be a
(29:11):
part of what she wasexperiencing and it's like
that's what I wanted with youand with your siblings is like I
wanted to be a part of.
Like you're going throughsorority rush, like I want to
know what's going on, like Iwant to be in that with you.
I mean not, not like I'm the dadwho's like showing up and you
know, spraying your hair andmaking sure you know all that I
(29:33):
mean I think that'd be creepyand kind of weird, but it's that
whole thing of like I want to,I, I, I want to experience this
with you, Like I love you, Ilove your brother and sister, I
love your mother and I want tobe like, I want to be with y'all
in that, you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think that translated well, because I never
felt like you were overbearingor like trying too hard to like
be a part of things.
Good, because I can imaginemaybe sometimes it feels that
way with parents, like trying tobe a part of things, and it
sometimes I, it, I could see howthis would be difficult.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Sometimes we try to live out our dreams through our
children, through our kids andthat's.
I think that's where theoverbearing comes in is, because
my dream isn't your dream.
Where the overbearing comes inis because my dream isn't your
dream and your dream has to bewhat you're pursuing.
(30:55):
Otherwise it's dreadfullyinauthentic and it won't.
You won't be able to pull itoff very well.
But if it's your dream, notmine, then I just get to enjoy
your dream with you and to me.
That's how we stay separate.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
It's like the attachment language is it's warm
but separate, and the warmth isthe closeness but the
separateness is obviously theseparate.
And so it's like, yeah, I meanI never wanted to play baseball,
but your brother does.
And so it's easy for me to say,you know, get after it.
I never wanted to be ahorseback rider, but your
brother does, and so it's easyfor me to say, you know, get
after it.
I never wanted to be ahorseback rider, but your sister
(31:30):
does.
And so it's like, yeah, go tearit up you never wanted to be in
a sorority.
I never wanted to be in asorority I never wanted to be in
dance, I never wanted to be anartist.
You know, like that, those weremy dreams but, they're y'all's
dreams and I think that I thinkthat as much as we can stand
(31:52):
back from now and if you allsaid like, oh, I wanted to be,
you know, a really successfulpsychologist, like that's my
dream are really successful.
If y'all said you wanted to bea really successful, you know
therapist or mental healthprofessional, wanted to be a
really successful, you knowtherapist or mental health
professional, I don't want toget involved in that.
I would love to see you do thatif that's your dream, but it
(32:21):
it's not my dream is that I wantit to be my dream, isn't that I
want?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
it to be that through you.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I'm honored to be here.
I'm actually honored thatyou're here.
Part of what we do, as you willknow, beyond the couches, we
want to leave our listeners withsome tips, some practical
advice.
Do you have any practicaladvice for our listeners that
you think might be intriguing?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
um, well, I'm in my third year of college now.
Um, and one of the things I wasalso homeschooled in high
school and so and I also thatwas 2020 when covid was
happening so it was a verylonely time, I wasn't doing a
lot, I wasn't seeing a lot, andI kind of realized the
(33:11):
importance of going out of mycomfort zone.
I'm a very introverted personand so kind of pushing back
against that sometimes when it'sneeded, and especially coming
to college, when you're facedwith a lot of opportunities, a
lot of different relationships,and just take hold of
opportunities, don't be scaredof them.
(33:31):
And going out of your comfortzone is a big thing because I
dread social events where Idon't know who I'm going to see,
I don't know what I'm going todo.
I hate it, but every singletime I force myself to go do
something, I always end up beingmy favorite day every time.
I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I love that because I think what you're proposing
which I think is fantastic isthat don't be defined by your
fears, don't be defined bydiscomfort.
Be defined by your fears, don'tbe defined by discomfort.
That when you experiencediscomfort and I think knowing
yourself well, you'll know isthis discomfort or is this
(34:16):
debilitating?
If it's debilitating, honorthat and work through that a
different way.
But if it's discomfort, you canpress through discomfort, and
so I love that You'reencouraging people press through
the discomfort.
If it's debilitating, workthrough that a different way.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Exactly.
That's brilliant, thank you.
What about you?
Do you have any advice?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I think I would piggyback on what you said and
say and just encourage ourlisteners know yourself, know
yourself and what you bring tothe table right.
That was my whole hope.
Not my whole hope.
That was.
That is part of my desire foryou and for your siblings, for
(35:02):
your mom, for me, for all of ourfriends and families.
That we know who we are, thatwe understand like what we bring
to the, to the table, so tospeak.
That by knowing who we are,we'll understand is that a
discomfort or is thatdebilitating, and we can act
(35:23):
accordingly.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
So that's really good .
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Thank you.
If you found value in ourdiscussion and wish to uncover
more about the fascinating worldof mental wellness, don't
forget to subscribe to thepodcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
(35:47):
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long and today'sepisode is incredibly special to
me.
I'm joined by my daughter, ella, and we explore what it's like
growing up as a child of atherapist.
Together we'll shareconversations about the
challenges, funny moments andlessons that come with being a
part of a family deeply rootedin mental health.
(00:23):
Lessons that come with being apart of a family deeply rooted
in mental health.
Join us as we reflect on ourexperiences, offer insights into
family dynamics, communicationand the balance between personal
and professional life your pathto mental wellness starts here,
Hi Ella, Hi Dad.
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Is that weird to hear ?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, it is In a podcast.
So welcome Ella to Beyond theCouch.
It's good to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Thank you, it's good to be here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So one of the things that we thought we would cover
in this podcast is what it'slike to grow up with or to have
parent, family member, friend,any close person that is a
mental health professional, andso we thought why not bring in
an expert?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
That's me.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Yeah, so you've been around a mental health
professional for most all ofyour life.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
True, all of my life, not most of all of it, yeah
Well you all of your life, trueAll of my life, not most of all
of it.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, well, you went away to school.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
That's true.
So tell us kind of thehighlights of what it's been
like for you growing up with amental health professional in
your home.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah Well, it was always the norm for me, so I
didn't know any better.
Um, but I knew I didn't knowyou did, for obviously you just
went to work for most of 10years, I think, and then I
realized what you did.
And then, once I realized whatyou did, um, I knew you talked
to people and you did somethingwith their brain and you fixed
(02:04):
them.
You talked to people and youdid something with their brain
and you fixed them, and Ithought you could read my brain
every time you spoke to me.
So I could never hide anything,because I thought he was going
to figure it out just by lookinginto my eyes.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
So you kind of felt like I was a human x-ray machine
Pretty much.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah so.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I love that and I hate that for you at the same
time, because autonomy is, Ithink, very important.
When you're growing up andknowing that you get to be your
own person, that you weren'tlike, I would have never wanted
you to ever think that we wouldbe in your head trying to make
you be a certain way.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
And I don't think that, I don't think you're
trying to make me a certain way.
I think you just, whatever wayI decided to be, you were going
to know.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, you know which is funny because that's that's
relationship, though, right,like, whatever way you decide to
be, we're going to know becausewe're close to each other.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I just thought it was more scientific than that, like
it was an like, literally likehow we had, like I had an x-ray
machine, yeah, you could see mythoughts.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You could see whoa I thought I thought you were like.
Um, like you know people thatcan read body language super
well, to the point where, like,you know exactly what's going on
, or like, if someone lies andthey like have a certain twitch
or whatever that, like you wouldpick up on that, no matter what
.
Yeah Well maybe you canpartially true, ish I mean.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
But I also think that people who do that, who read,
read people for you know, fortheir profession, and I think
that part of therapy is readingpeople.
But really one of the mythsthat I hope we can dispel is
that it's not about, like.
I remember part of my career.
I thought I was like adetective, you know, like I
(03:58):
needed to understand, like, areyou lying to me?
Are you telling the truth?
It's like at some point youreally sit back and you think
it's not about trying todetermine whether you're lying
to me or not.
It's really trying to determinewho you are and what is it that
you're bringing to this to thissession and what is it that
you're trying to get out of thissession?
(04:20):
Because if you're lying to me,okay, like why?
Because if you're lying to me,okay, like why?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
And what service does that?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
pay you.
Did that make sense?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
It's more about like the intention behind what you do
, not what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Right.
And it's really more aboutdiscovering that and then
discovering who you are as theperson sitting across and
discovering what is it thatyou're coming for.
You know, and if if I mean I'veI've actually treated people
who didn't want to tell me likesome really horrible things that
had happened, I'm like that'sfine as long as we can talk
(04:58):
about the periphery of those.
Things Like I don't need to seeall the way into the depths of
your well of your life.
Things like I don't need to seeall the way into the depths of
your well of your life, butcould it be that I'm just
learning how things impacted you?
yeah if that makes sense I thinkso cool.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think one of the things we were talking about
that is interesting is, like you, you were saying that raising
me, mental health, was always onthe top of the priority list.
Yeah, above, not above,parenting, because you were
parenting.
But you know what I'm trying tosay Like above giving rules and
(05:34):
like being a dictator, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I think maybe some parents lean more towards that
way and it's harder to see likethe mental health aspect of the
kid.
I don't know if you havethoughts on that.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I do.
I think.
I think that, if you considerwhat we're trying to rate, like,
what are we trying to raise?
We're not raising a child,we're raising an adult Right,
like that was.
That was our goal was always toraise up individuals who were
going to go into the world andbe contributing citizens, and
(06:11):
that we're going to have a deepfaith and a deep sense of
understanding and knowing,knowledge and experience of God
and of who they are and of whothey are.
And so teaching you or providingground for you to find who you
are and what you want to do andwho you want to become and who
(06:34):
you were designed and developedto be Like, that was, to me, the
utmost importance, because Idon't want you to be who I want
you to be.
I want you to be who you weredesigned to be, and I remember,
(06:58):
when you were born, looking atyou because you're our first and
looking at you and thinking man, I don't know you and I would
give anything for you, I wouldgive my life, but I don't know
you and I would give anythingfor you.
I would give my life, but Idon't know you, and I can't wait
to spend the rest of my lifegetting to know you and I just
that was such a I don't want tosay a primal thought, but that
(07:20):
was such an instinctual thoughtof the first time I met you and
thinking about that like it'slike I still am enjoying getting
to know you.
I mean, I know you, but it'sthe enjoyment of getting to know
you for the rest of our lives.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Does that make?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
sense what I mean by that.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, like the relationship aspect of it more
so than the parent aspect of it.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
The relationship aspect of it and the discovery
aspect of it.
The discovery is so much partof a relationship I mean, I've
been married for almost whatwould be 24 years and it's like
I still love discovering who mywife is.
People think, oh well, don'tyou know her by now?
(08:08):
Well, yeah, but I also knowthat as we grow, as we, as we
age or mature, there's aspectsof us that can change, and so
it's like great, I don't want usto be static for the rest of
our lives, I want us to continueto grow, and as I grow and as
she grows, it's like how, how dowe get to know that growth?
(08:29):
Through discovery?
Same thing with you and yoursiblings.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, so early on in my career, I taught parenting
classes and we, we would go tovarious locations and we would
teach, teach this class.
And the parenting class wasvery much founded upon
connection and relationship.
(08:56):
And I remember, when you weretwo and we were teaching this
class at a, at a pretty large,um, pretty large place, and, uh,
you, we were pretty cool withyou dressing yourself and we
wanted you to have you know.
You, we wanted you to havechoices and your choice that day
(09:17):
was like some rain boots andboots and an outfit that didn't
match, which, again, we didn'tcare, it was fine, it was your
choice.
And again, I'm not saying thatif parents care about that, that
that's a bad thing.
That was just a place that wewere willing to bend, willing to
bend, and you were marchingaround in your little rain boots
(09:40):
and, uh, you're, you were avery compliant child, for
whatever reason, that day youwere not having whatever it was
and you let out a really loudscreech in the in the uh, uh
foyer of this, of this buildingI mean, it was all hard surfaces
(10:00):
, so it was loud and it echoed.
And I just remember one of theparticipants who had a really
loud, booming voice was like,okay, parenting guy, let's see
what you've got.
And it was such a pivotal momentfor me as a dad because I
(10:21):
remember thinking like, who isthis for?
Is this for them?
Like to show them what theparenting guy has, or is this
between me and you?
And, unfortunately, everybody'swatching?
But is this between me and you?
And it was almost like I was inthe matrix and time stood still
.
But that thought of who is thisfor and is this between me and
(10:47):
you, or is this between me andthem?
And thank God, he helped mechoose appropriately.
He helped me chooseappropriately and it was between
me and you and it was like thatwas a decision that I feel like
I got to make at a reallypivotal time in being a dad.
And it was like I, it wasalmost like he allowed me to
(11:14):
block everything else out.
And you and I talked it throughand, yes, you were two and, yes,
we talked with each other.
You and I talked it through and, yes, you were too, and, yes,
we talked with each other.
No, I wasn't reasoning with atwo-year-old, but I needed to
connect with you because we werevery disconnected in that
moment.
And I think I knelt down and Ithink I said you're frustrated.
You're like, yes, and you know,we and I was like you're
(11:35):
frustrated and I don't know why.
And you were able to, in a veryfrustrated tone, tell me why
you were frustrated.
And then we walked through thatand it was I wanted a donut or
whatever it was.
And it was like, well, you knowwhat?
We're not going to have donuts,we're actually going to go eat
lunch.
And you were frustrated and Iwas able to say, and I get that
(11:57):
you're frustrated, and yet thelimit still stands.
We hugged, we connected and itwas funny because after it was
over, the guy with the bigbooming voice just kind of
started slow clapping Like youknow, good job, parenting guy.
I guess it does work.
And it was kind of funnybecause part of me wondered
later, like wonder if he thinkswe staged that, because if we
(12:19):
had, that would have been reallygood show right it would have
been brilliant, because youreally like you.
You responded perfectly toreally yeah to all the parenting
techniques we were teaching.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
So one thing I wanted to ask, like as I got older and
like maybe we had moredisagreements along the way,
like how do you feel like beinga therapist?
Did you like?
What kind of ways or ways ofdealing with conflict did you
take from that and apply toconflicts that I had as your
daughter?
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I, I, I think that the conflicts, the, the subjects
may have changed, but thepathway to deal with them didn't
.
From that conflict, when youwere two in the foyer of that
building, it was always.
You know, when there's aconflict, the hope is that
you're able to connect.
(13:11):
And if there was conflictbetween us, it was always to
find that place that there'sconnection between us and to say
, okay, we're we're connectinghere, but maybe there's friction
here.
So let's take the place thatwe're connected and let's move
that towards the friction.
And if that means that I needto sit back and listen, even if
(13:35):
I don't agree, I want to hearyou and I feel like you were
always good at that too, oflistening, even if, even if I
don't agree, I want to hear youand I feel like you were always
good at that too, of listening,even if, even if you didn't
agree.
And I feel like there's alwaysbeen that back and forth of
connection.
That's why, when you say youknow mental health was so
important, like, did youconsider that more important
than the, than being a parent?
(13:55):
And you're saying, yeah, butthat is parenting.
It really was to me.
What I was, what we were tryingto preserve, was connection
Like that, if we could stayattached you know the
psychological term would beattachment Wanted to make sure
we all, we wanted to make surethat you, you and your siblings,
like that, we have a secureattachment, that we feel safe
(14:18):
with one another another, safeenough to say I disagree,
because I think that's important.
Disagreeing is important.
I don't, I don't want littlecarbon copies running around
Like I want you all to be whoGod designed you to be, and so I
think, in conflict, it's amatter of saying okay, I know
that I love you and I know thatyou love me, and so let's, let's
(14:41):
start from that premise andthen let's figure out where do
we disagree and why?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, I see, I think one of the things I've heard a
lot from like a lot of people islike they feel like their
parents aren't like emotionallyavailable, like I think that's a
word that I hear often abouttheir experience with the family
.
How do you feel, like, do youthink your experience as a
counselor has made you moreemotionally available, or do you
(15:08):
think you as a person like?
Speaker 1 (15:10):
No, I definitely wholeheartedly think it's
because of my profession.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Really.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
In what way?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Because I think I understand, because of all that
I've learned academically, howimportant intentionality is.
And had I chosen a differentprofession or been called to a
different profession, I don'tknow that I would have paid
attention to that.
I mean, hopefully I would, yeahRight, but I don't know.
(15:37):
Yeah, mean hopefully I wouldyeah, Right, but I don't know.
Yeah, but I would say I wouldsay and I often say thank God
that that I was called into thisprofession, that this is the
career that I chose for myself.
However you want to see it, Ioften say I'm so grateful for
that because I don't know that Iwould have understand or would
(16:01):
have understood the impact of mybehavior on those in my home.
If that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, for sure, I think I've always been very
thoughtful about things and Ithink that came from you.
I've always been veryanalytical of what happens in
situations and I've noticed thata lot more recently as an adult
and learning how I navigatedifferent situations.
But mom was telling me as a kid, when I would play Littles Pet
(16:35):
Shops, she would, um, I'd askher like so, if the little's pet
shop were to like I don't know,eat the whole jar of cookies,
what would would she get introuble and why?
And it was just a constant likekind of trying to use the toys
to kind of figure out what, howthe life worked, pretty much, um
(16:59):
, what was allowed and whatwasn't allowed yeah I'm not.
Maybe that was a subconsciousthing that came from having a
therapist dad.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
But maybe so.
At the same time, I thinkthat's a real natural, uh,
developmental play is to askquestions, to be curious.
I think it's more about yourpersonhood and the freedom that
(17:28):
you felt as a kid to be able totry things out.
That's why.
That's why kids lie likesometimes people will come to us
and think, oh my gosh, my kid'sa pathological liar.
You know they they spilled somemilk and said a goat did it,
and you're like, yeah, it's partof their developmental process.
Some, some, approach it throughplay, like what you're talking
(17:51):
about, and play therapy is a lotabout that, where you, you
learn from their play, from thechild's play, what is it that
they're processing, and so youprocessing and navigating those
themes in play makes a whole lotof sense, and it was.
I thought it was always reallysweet to watch you work those
(18:12):
things out, you know, but it's.
It's funny too, though, because, like I, because I forget where
mom and I were, but we werehaving a discussion We'll call
it a discussion, and it was adiscussion with a lot of
friction, and I think we wereboth kind of joking about some
(18:32):
of the friction, but I forgetwho was with us, but we were
talking about something and itwas like and I would like to
tell you where I am coming from,because my personhood would
like to say the and it was likewe were using some really
technical terms and whoever waswith us was kind of giggling
(18:54):
like, oh my gosh, y'all are suchdorks.
And like, do y'all always do itthis way?
I'm like no, you know, we don't.
We, we have good old fashioneddiscussions, um, but I think a
lot, a lot of times people think, as a therapist, you don't turn
it off, like you're analyzingyour family, you're analyzing
(19:15):
your friends, and I think, gosh,I don't.
I mean this with all the loveand respect in the world to all
those people close, but I don'twant to spend that kind of brain
power when I'm not working.
Yeah, you know, and so no, wedo turn it off.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah.
And no, we don't sit around andhave share your feelings
moments in the law, household, Imean, I think we do, but we
don't call we have discussions,we have discussions.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, good discussions right, but it's not
like.
Okay, everyone sit down.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It's five o'clock, it's time to share your emotions
you're gonna read all your bodylanguage and figure out
everything you've done this pastweek the emotional x-rays and
take your picture I think I've.
I think I've.
Like it's easy to take forgranted how lucky I am to have a
therapist dad because I'm usedto it and I hear people that
obviously don't have a therapistdad and it's like I don't know.
(20:08):
I become more and more gratefulfor it as I realize how and how
lucky I am to have that.
So I also love how this hasturned into like a a myth
debunking yeah, discussion yes,yes I think I was surprised by
(20:28):
because I think I don't know,maybe it was like 15 or 16 when
I came to you and said I wantedto like date, like could I be in
a relationship, is that allowed, with a little special um.
And I think I was surprisedwhen you said yes, um what?
And I, you encouraged it.
What was the intention behindthat?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You're right.
I did encourage it.
I would encourage that for allof you, because I think that I
want you to learn how tonavigate a broken heart.
I want you to learn how tonavigate that under my roof.
I want to make sure that whenyour heart gets broken, or when
(21:07):
you break somebody's heart orwhen you get hurt, that you know
, you know how to, or at leastyou have a, a, a principled
understanding of, like, how dowe walk through this?
And you know how do you makesure you continue to honor you?
And how do you, how do youhonor the person either whose
(21:28):
heart you're going to break orwho broke your heart?
And so I think that my wholething in parenting was always
figure out.
Let's figure out together howwe can say yes to this.
Now, there are things that theonly yes I can give you is if
the situation's completelydifferent.
(21:49):
So to this situation there'sjust not a yes in there.
So I don't want it to comeacross like, yeah, we're
permissive parents and you cando whatever you want.
It's.
It's not been that.
I mean, I don't think that wasyour experience.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Being super permissive?
Yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah.
I mean, I was also kids, that'strue, but I mean, even as a
teenager, you know like ourwhole goal with you was your
last.
It's, it's our goal with all ofour kids.
Is their last year under ourroof that you're pretty much
coming and going as you please.
It's all about respecting thehousehold, as opposed to.
(22:27):
You have a curfew and you havethis that you have to be like
we're going to.
You know, have all theseconflictual conversations with
you.
I want to, we wanted to haveand we still want to have
connected conversations, andthat may sound a little silly,
but what I mean by that is youknow, if, if?
(22:49):
It's well, what I mean by thatis is I want to be able to talk
through things with you.
So the best way to put thekibosh on talking through
situations with somebody is tobe unbending, inflexible and
unwilling to hear their side.
And so I mean we've hadsituations where we've allowed
(23:18):
things that may stretch otherpeople's limits.
So we've had friends who haveheard things that we've said yes
to and on the surface of it,they've given us a distinct
amount of grief, a truckload ofgrief over it, and my response
to them is always hold on, holdon, like let me tell you if, if,
if you're willing to hear.
Let me tell you the specificsand let me tell you the thought
(23:42):
pattern behind why, and let metell you all the principles that
were learned as a result.
And in inevitably and maybeit's because I'm a good salesman
, but inevitably they were likeoh okay, I see where you were
going with that.
(24:03):
Oh okay, well, so they learnedabout safety.
You were going with that.
Oh okay, well, so they learnedabout safety.
They learned experientially thetype of learning that you gain
through experience.
It's called procedural learningas opposed to task oriented
learning, and task oriented ismore like out of the book, and
(24:24):
yeah, it's important to read abook and learn things, but then
you go and do that thing and youlearn the procedure to do it.
And that's what I want you allto learn safety.
I want you all to learn what itmeans to have your wits about
you in the midst of somethingthat's stressful.
(24:45):
I want you to strategically, Iwant you to learn how to
strategically think thingsthrough so that you know you're
safe, so that you look.
I want you to have fun.
You know part of this life isabout enjoying right, and so I
want you to find things that youenjoy, and that's when, when
you know, laying some of thesethings out, it's like, yes,
(25:06):
we're going to find a way to sayyes if we can.
And if we can't say yes to that, then let's find something else
that we can say yes to that isgood for you, because if it's
not illegal, immoral, unbiblicalor unethical, we want to say
yes to it.
But those are our four pillarsIllegal, immoral, unbiblical and
(25:26):
unethical.
Those are our four pillars.
Illegal, immoral, unbiblicaland unethical.
Those are our four pillars.
Those are good.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, they're good pillars um, and I think, like in
those types of situations, likeyou said, it wasn't just a yes,
it was like a yes, but it hadboundaries to it you know, and I
think that's where, if peopleare giving you grief for being
too lenient, like that's whereit comes in.
We're like yeah, it was a yes,but there were these rules
(25:50):
around it.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, I like to refer to them as guidelines,
guidelines.
And maybe I didn't like theguidelines, but Maybe, but I
learned from them, right, andwhen you all don't like the
guidelines that we put out, it'slike I really want to.
We both really want tounderstand why.
Because that gives us, that'sthe x-ray that gives me insight
(26:14):
into you, and not so that we canmanipulate.
It's so that we can know.
It's a greater form in my mindand in your mom's mind.
It's a greater form in my mindand in your mom's mind.
It's a greater form ofconnection.
It's a greater form of beingwith each other and
understanding each other betteryou've always been very invested
(26:36):
in all three of our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think like you've, and it's like you've trying to
think of, like first, when I,when I, started in dance you're
always very involved in that andyou were dance dad, and then
Molly started horse riding.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But to be clear, I was dance dad from the audience.
I never got up.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
He was never on stage , never, unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Fortunately for all the other people watching now,
it was not, but yes, I always.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
But you were the dance dad of the dance moms
group.
Yeah well, you were the dancedad of the dance moms group.
Yeah Well, you were there.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, you know it's like it's like on the way over
here, you said to me you're,you're off today and you're like
, oh, I'm sorry that I'mbringing you back to the office.
I'm like I don't care where wego, I just want to be together
and if you, if you're dancinglike I want to, I want to hang
(27:30):
out there because you'repassionate about it.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
So therefore, I'm passionate about it, yeah, and
that was an interesting I get,and also when I decided russia
sorority, or that was so fun youwere recruitment was the best.
It was more fun for you thanfor me.
You know why.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
It is so strategy laden.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Like it was like 3D chess, like I had so much fun,
like okay, what's the strategytoday?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
What dress are we going to wear?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you were going to kill it.
You were going to look amazingno matter what you wore, but it
was the whole idea of likegetting to be strategic.
I love strategy.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, but in that situation you were there for me,
for something that was going tobe beyond, like something that
you weren't ultimately a part ofbut, you were still super
invested in it and in myexperience, which I appreciated,
having sorority dad and now youhave all your sorority shirts.
Oh yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I love my sorority dad.
And now you have all yoursorority shirts.
Oh yeah, I love it.
I love my sorority shirts.
But the whole point in that forme was because it's a point of
connection with you.
It's so funny.
When your mom and I met, wewere just friends for a very
long time and I remember, youknow, she lived in Southeast
Asia for a period of time and Iremember being just friends and
(28:50):
people saying why are you flyingover there to visit her?
I'm like because she's there,like that's her experience there
, and I want to see and be apart of what she's experiencing.
And yes, it worked to myadvantage when she came home and
married me not much long afterthat, um, but I wanted to be a
(29:11):
part of what she wasexperiencing and it's like
that's what I wanted with youand with your siblings is like I
wanted to be a part of.
Like you're going throughsorority rush, like I want to
know what's going on, like Iwant to be in that with you.
I mean not, not like I'm the dadwho's like showing up and you
know, spraying your hair andmaking sure you know all that I
(29:33):
mean I think that'd be creepyand kind of weird, but it's that
whole thing of like I want to,I, I, I want to experience this
with you, Like I love you, Ilove your brother and sister, I
love your mother and I want tobe like, I want to be with y'all
in that, you know.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think that translated well, because I never
felt like you were overbearingor like trying too hard to like
be a part of things.
Good, because I can imaginemaybe sometimes it feels that
way with parents, like trying tobe a part of things, and it
sometimes I, it, I could see howthis would be difficult.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Sometimes we try to live out our dreams through our
children, through our kids andthat's.
I think that's where theoverbearing comes in is, because
my dream isn't your dream.
Where the overbearing comes inis because my dream isn't your
dream and your dream has to bewhat you're pursuing.
(30:55):
Otherwise it's dreadfullyinauthentic and it won't.
You won't be able to pull itoff very well.
But if it's your dream, notmine, then I just get to enjoy
your dream with you and to me.
That's how we stay separate.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
It's like the attachment language is it's warm
but separate, and the warmth isthe closeness but the
separateness is obviously theseparate.
And so it's like, yeah, I meanI never wanted to play baseball,
but your brother does.
And so it's easy for me to say,you know, get after it.
I never wanted to be ahorseback rider, but your
brother does, and so it's easyfor me to say, you know, get
after it.
I never wanted to be ahorseback rider, but your sister
(31:30):
does.
And so it's like, yeah, go tearit up you never wanted to be in
a sorority.
I never wanted to be in asorority I never wanted to be in
dance, I never wanted to be anartist.
You know, like that, those weremy dreams but, they're y'all's
dreams and I think that I thinkthat as much as we can stand
(31:52):
back from now and if you allsaid like, oh, I wanted to be,
you know, a really successfulpsychologist, like that's my
dream are really successful.
If y'all said you wanted to bea really successful, you know
therapist or mental healthprofessional, wanted to be a
really successful, you knowtherapist or mental health
professional, I don't want toget involved in that.
I would love to see you do thatif that's your dream, but it
(32:21):
it's not my dream is that I wantit to be my dream, isn't that I
want?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
it to be that through you.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I'm honored to be here.
I'm actually honored thatyou're here.
Part of what we do, as you willknow, beyond the couches, we
want to leave our listeners withsome tips, some practical
advice.
Do you have any practicaladvice for our listeners that
you think might be intriguing?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
um, well, I'm in my third year of college now.
Um, and one of the things I wasalso homeschooled in high
school and so and I also thatwas 2020 when covid was
happening so it was a verylonely time, I wasn't doing a
lot, I wasn't seeing a lot, andI kind of realized the
(33:11):
importance of going out of mycomfort zone.
I'm a very introverted personand so kind of pushing back
against that sometimes when it'sneeded, and especially coming
to college, when you're facedwith a lot of opportunities, a
lot of different relationships,and just take hold of
opportunities, don't be scaredof them.
(33:31):
And going out of your comfortzone is a big thing because I
dread social events where Idon't know who I'm going to see,
I don't know what I'm going todo.
I hate it, but every singletime I force myself to go do
something, I always end up beingmy favorite day every time.
I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I love that because I think what you're proposing
which I think is fantastic isthat don't be defined by your
fears, don't be defined bydiscomfort.
Be defined by your fears, don'tbe defined by discomfort.
That when you experiencediscomfort and I think knowing
yourself well, you'll know isthis discomfort or is this
(34:16):
debilitating?
If it's debilitating, honorthat and work through that a
different way.
But if it's discomfort, you canpress through discomfort, and
so I love that You'reencouraging people press through
the discomfort.
If it's debilitating, workthrough that a different way.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Exactly.
That's brilliant, thank you.
What about you?
Do you have any advice?
Speaker 1 (34:40):
I think I would piggyback on what you said and
say and just encourage ourlisteners know yourself, know
yourself and what you bring tothe table right.
That was my whole hope.
Not my whole hope.
That was.
That is part of my desire foryou and for your siblings, for
(35:02):
your mom, for me, for all of ourfriends and families.
That we know who we are, thatwe understand like what we bring
to the, to the table, so tospeak.
That by knowing who we are,we'll understand is that a
discomfort or is thatdebilitating, and we can act
(35:23):
accordingly.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
So that's really good .
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Thank you.
If you found value in ourdiscussion and wish to uncover
more about the fascinating worldof mental wellness, don't
forget to subscribe to thepodcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
(35:47):
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
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