August 12, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode of Restoration Beyond the Couch, Dr. Lee Long sits down with speech writer and coach Josh Storie to explore what it takes to truly communicate effectively. They discuss how to go beyond words to connect with others, build trust, and convey your message with clarity and confidence. Whether in leadership, relationships, or everyday interactions, this conversation offers practical strategies for speaking with purpose and impact.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long here for opendiscussions, helpful tools and
real-life ways to show up asyour best self.
Together, we'll explore what ittakes to live with clarity,
purpose and hope.
I went to a wedding recentlyand the best man's speech was so
(00:22):
perfectly on point.
And the best man's speech wasso perfectly on point.
Later I learned his speech wasinspired by Josh Story's book
Wedding Toast Don't have to Suck.
Great title right, it remindedme.
Great speeches, like greatlives, start with truly knowing
the subject.
In our mental wellness, thatsubject is you.
(00:44):
In this episode, josh and Italk about storytelling,
authenticity and how to show upwell on stage and in everyday
life.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
One of the things that I wantto make sure that I read is I
came across something that youwrote Okay, and I want to read
(01:08):
this and I want to get your takeon this.
So, you, you, uh, on LinkedIn.
I found you there, Okay, andunder the about section you said
the short version I buildthings out of words.
The longer version is whatcaught me.
The longer version is, you sayI grew up with a pretty gnarly
(01:31):
stutter.
That means I grew up with adeep frustration over the
inability to say what I wantedto say and how I wanted to say
it.
But something pretty dramatichappened in first grade.
I learned to write.
All of a sudden, a new worldwas open to me.
With a pen in my hand, I couldbe funny, I could be insightful,
(01:52):
I could be poetic.
With a pen in my hand, I couldfinally be fluent.
Yeah, when I read that, itstopped me in my tracks.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I love that.
Thanks, man.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Why do you think it stopped you in your tracks?
Because I think a lot of peoplesee things that they have to
(02:33):
overcome or get to overcome asdeficits, as, like I am stuck
this way and it's like you foundsuch a beautiful workaround and
I mean, you're a guy who is apublic speaker and and you
started like the the, youstarted this with a hat.
I grew up with a pretty gnarlystutter, yeah, and most people,
I'm imagining that feel likethere's a deficit there or
something that they don't wantto necessarily interact with.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah.
So I might be jumping ahead alittle bit, Jump away, but I
actually share that story everysingle time I meet with a new
client, and specifically when Ido speaker coaching.
Because what's reallyinteresting with speaker
coaching is you have those whoraise their hand and they say
I've identified some areas whereI want to grow, Can you help me
(03:18):
grow?
Or they've been voluntold andsomeone has said, hey, you have
areas where you need to grow.
We want you to go see thisperson, which I would imagine is
very similar to counseling aswell.
There's folks who say I want tobe here and then others are
like my mom or whoever is makingme come my wife, my dad?
Yeah, exactly.
And so what I found is thatwhen I share that story from the
(03:40):
front end, I always share thatstory and I'll say I tell you
that because, while you don'thave a stutter, you probably
feel stuck.
I said I know what it's like tofeel stuck.
I know what it's like to feelstuck and what this process is
designed to do is to help youfeel unstuck, because there are
a few things more discouragingthan not being able to say
(04:01):
things the way that you want to.
There are a few things moreexhilarating than knowing that
you absolutely nailed apresentation.
I was like so, wherever you are,if things aren't coming out
right, I was like that's whyyou're here.
It's like you're here because,on some level, the words just
aren't coming out the way thatyou want them to.
So that was my whole childhood,growing up.
I was like so I get that on adeep, deep level, and so we're
(04:23):
going to help you get to a spotwhere things do come out right
and you can almost see liketheir shoulders just go.
And I found that, from a storystandpoint, there is something
about just telling that storythat builds a little bit of
connection.
They feel more connected to me.
But also there's a level ofthey have a framework with which
they can now view what we'reabout to do, and so, yeah, I
(04:46):
tell that story whenever I can,because people seem to connect
with it.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, I mean, I connected with it when I read it
, because I remember the firsttime I heard you speak, I was I
mean, I'm not trying to fluffyour cushion here but I truly
was blown away by what you weresaying and I just thought, wow,
what a just the moxie, thecourage, the yeah, the all of
(05:16):
those for you to be a guy whohad struggled with that and to
be up there and it's like here Iam, because I have really good
things to say, and that did notimpede you.
I love that.
Thanks, man.
The last paragraph of it sayswhile most people don't know
what it's like to have a stutter, everyone knows the frustration
(05:37):
or knows how frustrating it canbe when things just don't come
out right, and that's what getsme out of bed every morning.
Yeah, it's helping people findthe joy and the freedom of being
able to say exactly what theywant to say and how to say it.
Yeah, so you wrote a book.
I did.
You've actually written three,am I right about that?
Yeah, okay, the first two wereabout well, I shouldn't say the
(06:01):
first because I don't know whatorder they're in yeah, but the
two of them are about your faithand about common grace and that
theme, am I right?
Yep, but the other book thatyou wrote, which to me is wildly
intriguing and the title I love, is how Wedding Toasts Don't
(06:21):
have to Suck Yep, I love thatAgain.
I love the way you communicate,so walk me through that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So we've all been at the wedding, right, where
everyone's having a great time.
Then the glasses begin to clinkand you look up and you realize
that some drunk best man has amicrophone in his hand and
everyone is thinking, oh Lord,do I have enough time to make it
to the bathroom before thiswhole thing starts right and
(06:53):
just hide out?
I am of the persuasion that Ithink that the wedding toasts,
like the wedding speeches,should be the most memorable
part of an entire reception,that people should, like hop in
the car and think what an honorit was for us to get to go to
that wedding, what an honor thatwe were invited because of what
(07:17):
they said about the couple.
That it's a reminder of what aprivilege it is for you as the
guest to be here because thesepeople are so amazing, reminder
of what a privilege it is foryou as the guest to be here
because these people are soamazing.
And oftentimes the conversationin the car is oh my gosh, that
guy was hammered.
Or oh my gosh, like that was souncomfortable to sit through.
Or oh my gosh, like I felt sobad for that bridesmaid.
She was clearly so nervous.
(07:38):
And so we walk away typicallythinking about something
completely different than whatshould be happening.
And so I had a lot of folks overthe years approach me and say,
hey, you write speeches andstuff like that.
I have to go give a best mantoast, I have to go give a man
of honor speech, can you help medo it?
And so I just kind of sat downand wrote it all down because it
(07:59):
was stuff that I was kind ofsaying that I kind of assumed
was common knowledge and I wouldhave these looks of saying that
I kind of assume was commonknowledge and I would have these
looks of that's so helpful.
Thank you so much.
I go okay, cool.
And so, yeah, just wrote it alldown and, you know, made a book
out of it.
And I always tell people whenI'm talking about I said you
know, floral arrangements areimportant but floral
(08:19):
arrangements don't ruinfriendships.
Best man speeches do, and youknow.
So if you're choosing on whatyou should really invest in,
maybe spend $7 and invest in thespeech that could turn either
an embarrassing or forgettable,because that's typically the
spectrum.
Right, that this is either man,this is really embarrassing or
(08:42):
it's forgettable.
But if you could change thespectrum and you can actually
make that the most meaningfulmoment in the reception.
So that's kind of the impetusthere.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
How would one go about that?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Writing a speech like that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, just what are some of the highlights, without
giving it all away.
Yeah, yeah totally Because youshould go to Amazon and you
should buy this book.
Tell me the title again WeddingToast Don't have to Suck.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
See, that's just brilliant.
So I'll give you my threefavorite tips.
Okay, one and this is going tosound, I mean, all of these
sound so basic One is that youhave to remember that the speech
is not about you, it's aboutthe couple, and that should be
(09:26):
like well duh.
But you'd be surprised at howmany times folks hop up there
and they start telling storiesabout themselves disguised as
the story about the couple.
Okay, say more about that.
So it's always easier for us totalk about ourselves, right?
And so what you find is thatpeople will so like.
An example of this, there was aguy who I saw giving a toast.
Honestly, half of these arejust really bad.
There was a guy who I sawgiving a toast.
Honestly, half of these arejust really bad examples I saw
(09:48):
and I was like, do the oppositeof that.
But I saw this guy stand up andhe had met his wife, because
the guy that was getting marriedintroduced them, and so his
entire story was really abouthow he met his wife, and then at
the end he kind of tacked onand that's the kind of friend
that so-and-so is, and it's likeyou just told us your entire
(10:12):
story about meeting your wifeand the only connection to the
groom is that he was the one whoinitially instigated that.
He was the one that said, hey,you should meet so-and-so.
And I remember thinking I waslike I know nothing about the
groom.
I know nothing about the groomexcept for the fact that he
hooked y'all up and you justspent 15 minutes telling me a
story that was not about thegroom, it was about you and your
(10:33):
love, not his love.
And so even just like stufflike that or like, hey, you know
, you know, if you tell a story,oftentimes it's hey, so me and
Joe, we were roommates freshmanyear and this crazy thing
happened.
And you hear the story andyou're like I don't know what
that has to do with Joe or whywe're here or why he's going to
be a great husband, and sooftentimes we just tell stories
(10:55):
about ourselves because we thinkthe stories are great and fun,
but they're not about the couple.
So step one is like naked aboutthe couple, not about you,
they're not about the couple.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So.
So step one is like naked aboutthe couple, not about you,
because what we tend to do is wetend to tell the story about us
, but thinking we're talkingabout the other person Because
there's a principle, and this is.
This is really part of thereason why I wanted us to have
this podcast today is because II see what you and I do, yeah,
is very, very similar.
(11:25):
Oh, totally.
And the thing that I see in myoffice often is that people
think that they're talking aboutand this is going to be a
little reverse People think thatthey're talking about
themselves, people think thatthey're telling a great story,
right, but really what'shappening is is that I am
looking to you to tell me aboutme.
(11:46):
So it is the inverse, but ithas a very similar impact, where
that comes across as selfish.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right In a marriage will I say this all the time If
you would quit focusing on yourspouse and what they did and
telling me how you hurt myfeelings and you did this and
you said these mean things to me, and if you don't stop this,
then we can't stay together andit's like we're focused on the
(12:17):
wrong person, and that's whatyou're saying in these speeches.
Like you're saying yeah, that'sfine to tell a story about you,
as long as it includes thegroom or the bride or the groom.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Totally yeah, a hundred percent.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world.
Otherwise, it's very irrelevantand you've lost your audience.
The same when you're as aparent, you know you're wearing
me out.
Today you are acting so poorly,or you found your opinion and I
don't know what to do with youand it's like the audience is
like well, I don't know whereyou are, or why, you're talking
(12:53):
and it's, I believe, as we'vetalked about this.
You know, I believe it's a verysimilar theme.
You're losing your audience.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Totally 100 love that .
So that's that one.
A few more that I will I'llthrow out uh.
Two is uh, have a point,meaning that oftentimes there's
not a, there's not a point thereis.
You just tell some stories fromcollege and you say something
(13:22):
pseudo-sentimental at the endhey, you know, cheers to the
happy couple and that's it.
And people are like, I don'tokay, I mean cool, like yeah,
yeah, fun story, but I don'tknow what that was about, right?
So even if it's so, like that'seven going from, it's not that
it's about you, it's not aboutanything, you know, it's just,
it's just something that y'allexperienced.
And so I always tell peoplefind like one thing because like
(13:45):
, really, it's not going to be along speech Like, find one
thing, one character, quality,one thing that you think is
going to make this person agreat husband, a great wife,
that one thing to say hey, thisis why you're so lucky to be
married to this person, right,like one thing that makes the
people in the crowd go oh mygosh, that's beautiful.
So, like makes the people inthe crowd go oh my gosh, that's
(14:06):
beautiful.
So like and like, have like ahave a point to it.
So like when, when my bestfriend got married.
I was giving his speech and andI I talked about how, from from
the moment that we were born,we were best friends.
Our parents had been friendsbefore we were born and I told
this story about how my dadcoached our basketball team as a
(14:28):
kid and how my dad used to callus the dynamic duo, because we
would play basketball just forfun all day, every day, and so
we just always knew where eachother was and stuff like that,
and it was one of those thingsthat my dad told us behind the
scenes.
Right, that's not like a monikerthat he would say in front of
the team you know, and so and soone day we were down by a few
(14:51):
points and my dad kind of calleda you know time out in the
huddle and I, in front of thewhole team, I'd said dad is a
time for the dynamic duo.
And my dad says sit down he'slike because you know it was
like it's like you don't justcall yourself the dynamic duo in
front of the rest of the team,and so I made this joke of us.
(15:12):
I said that was the first timethat the dynamic duo had ever
been separated was in that game.
I was like that was the firsttime that had ever happened
until tonight.
And tonight there's a newdynamic duo.
That's happening, right, rightthat like we've been best
friends our entire lives and nowhe gets to be a part of a new
dynamic duo.
And this is why you are solucky to be a part of this duo,
(15:34):
why you are so lucky to be thenew addition of this duo, and I
was able to kind of talk aboutthat, right, and so that's just
a just like having a point,having something to say, that
kind of building it around it,and so it can be that it can be
an experience, it can be a story, it can be a characteristic and
really just finding that onething that you want to highlight
(15:54):
about the person and buildingsomething around that.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, and I think that's first of all.
That's beautiful.
Like I was, I had chillslistening to that, going dang.
I wish I wish I had that speechsaid about me or you know what
I'm saying?
Yeah, or or could be a part ofthat, like because that really
is a peek into sort of the likea, a private like, like you got
(16:18):
to peek into his private worldin a very appropriate and
uplifting manner.
Yeah and gosh, what a gift.
Yeah, were there lots of tears?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
or cheers.
There were a few.
I think what's been funny is, Iwould say, I don't think I'm
naturally a great speech writer,I just think I work really hard
at it, and I think that that'sjust kind of been my MO as a kid
is because I always feel likebecause of the stutter, I was
always starting a few steps backand so I just became really
(16:53):
obsessed with wanting to do thiswell, and so I just worked hard
at it and I was actually givinga speech at a wedding one time
and there were three of us guysgiving a speech and I remember
the first guy was a dentist andhe didn't want to give the
speech.
He was really nervous and hesaid can I go first?
(17:13):
I just want to get this thingover with.
And we're like yeah, man,totally.
And then the other guy was likeyou know what, josh?
How about you go second?
And then I'll like I'll likefinish it up.
And I said, all right, cool man.
I was like I was like sure,cause, I mean I can go last too,
I don't mind.
He's like no, no, no, no, likeyou go.
And then I'll like bring ushome.
I was like okay, and then, theback of my mind.
I was thinking I don't say, hey, man, maybe I go last, and I
(17:47):
was like, okay, so the first guygoes, he does what he can and
it's great.
He kind of stays in his lane,does.
Well, I get up and I give avery thoughtful speech and
everyone claps and stuff likethat and you can kind of feel
the emotion in the room BecauseI think I just put some thought
into it and the guy grabs themicrophone and he goes.
(18:09):
You hustled me.
I forgot that you're aprofessional speech writer.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
He's like how am I supposed to follow that?
I was like I tried, man, Itried to you know, give you.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
But you know, I think that's part of it too.
It's just point.
If you just have a thought,it's just going to set you apart
significantly from folks whoare just get up there and wing
it.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
I think that's right.
I think that you bring up areally interesting point, though
, is that you feel like you'recoming from behind, and so you
work really hard in this, andone of the things that I love
about what you're explaining orwhat you're what you're talking
about is is that you, you know,you, you know, I know my
(18:52):
limitations, but I'm not definedby those.
Yes, I use those and say I knowwhat I have to offer, and
you're a grinder Like that'spart of your character.
Yeah, is that?
I mean?
That's fair to say.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I'm sure you've heard that before.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
You're a guy who's not afraid of hard work.
I've known you for a very longtime and I've never seen you shy
away from hard work or anythingdifficult like ever.
And I think that that is partof your character and it's like
you know you well and being ableto walk that out and and and
(19:31):
have a point, it's like, okay, Iknow what I have to offer, and
that's me.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And I'm going to offer me by way of then now
learning you or like having mypoint and getting there, and
it's really powerful.
Thanks, man.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, I will say.
I think it took me a long timeto get there, though, and I
think that anyone who givesspeeches or is in public
speaking at all- I think thenatural inclination is we all
want to be like an off-brandversion of our favorite speaker,
and I think that that's kind ofwhere I was for a long time is
I was just doing my best MattChandler impression, or I was
(20:12):
doing my best, you know, insertpublic speaker here my best
Simon Sinek impression orwhoever and I remember the
moment that it clicked for me ofreally kind of knowing who I
was as a communicator was I was.
I was a pastor at the time andI had just taken over for a guy
who got promoted and and so youknow, oftentimes if you get a
(20:33):
new job in ministry specifically, it's either usually it's hey,
this thing is tanking, and weneed you to like spice it up and
do whatever Right.
And I was in a really uniqueposition where it wasn't hey,
this is tanking, it's actually,this is going really really well
, so well that this guy gotpromoted.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So now don't rock the boat, like don't you know,
don't mess this good thing up,right.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Exactly.
And the guy who had created itis a mutual friend of ours, has
a very specific personality andhas a very specific dynamism on
stage, right, the way that hespeaks is so unique that I
remember thinking, well, that'show I need to speak when I
preach.
I mean, that's what built thisthing, that's what, like, that's
(21:16):
the type of communication thatthis audience is drawn to.
So I need to be like him.
And it took about, you knowRight.
So I need to be like him.
And it took about, you know,probably a year, a full year,
before I realized that his humorisn't my humor, his delivery
isn't my delivery, the way thathe illustrates isn't the way
that I illustrate, the way thathe structures isn't the way that
(21:36):
I structure.
And when I realized that I hadto figure out who am I as a
communicator, that's when thingsreally started to click.
And because I do think for alot of folks and I see this a
lot, especially with youngpastors is it's, you know,
whoever the hottest preacher isat the moment.
You know they're, you know, anoff-brand Matt Chandler,
(21:57):
off-brand John Mark Comer,off-brand Andy Stanley.
You know, fill in the blank,they're trying to find the guy
that they listen to the most andthey're just doing their best
impression.
And I think that there'ssomething about learning and the
time it takes and it's a bit oftrial and error, right Of
learning.
Uh, that joke didn't work.
Why?
Because that's not how I talk,that's not how I make a joke,
(22:18):
that's not how I deliver a joke.
Or that illustration didn'tland.
Why?
It's because I don't.
I didn't find that illustrationdidn't land.
Why it's because I didn't findthat illustration interesting,
or that's not how I think aboutthings.
I was just trying to take thatperson's illustration and plug
it in here because it worked forthem, so surely it would work
for me.
And this takes time to kind oflearn who you are.
But then I feel like once youlearn who you are as a
(22:40):
communicator, that's when itgets really, really fun, because
you're not trying to be someoneelse, you're really stepping
into how God has wired you as acommunicator and that's a blast.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
You know, the cool thing about what you're saying
is that authenticity is whatresonates the most with other
people.
There was a study done wherethey were measuring the energy
waves.
And this isn't woo-woo, but wedo emit energy.
You do feel other people'spresence and they they were
(23:15):
looking at the, the energy thatwas being emitted in this.
I forget what it's called, butit's like a.
It's like a box that they putpeople in.
It's a big one.
It's not like a coffin, it's abig box.
So those of us who areclaustrophobic, it was a nice
spacious box, but they put themin there where there's no other
energy waves that were impactingthe reading of the energy and
people.
You know, when we say what'sthe greatest impact of energy,
(23:39):
people usually say, oh, it'slove or it's joy or it's some
positive emotion.
That's not what they found,it's authenticity, and that when
someone is open and meets youwith their authenticity, then
your waves collide and theydouble.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And so there's, all of a sudden, this ah, I can be,
and it's like an encouragementto be yourself.
Yeah, for almost three decades.
(24:20):
That that's what people want isI want to know that I'm
acceptable, I want to be known,I want to be loved, I want to be
, you know, accepted.
Well, what you're talking aboutis I'm going to go up there in
front of an entire crowd orcongregation, whatever the,
whatever the situation is, andI'm going to be somebody that's
(24:42):
not me.
And what's the impact on theaudience?
Right, it's pretty stale fromwhat you're saying, but when I
go up there and if I tell astory or give an illustration or
try to tell a joke that is notin line with my sense of humor,
then the energy that I'm sendingout is not going to be that
(25:05):
great Totally.
So what am I producing outthere?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Right.
So okay, let's take it from thescale of a big group, let's
take it to a group of friends.
Let's take it to one-on-onewith your partner, your spouse,
whatever your best friend.
One-on-one with your partner,your spouse, whatever your best
friend.
Yeah, it's like if and look, Iknow we struggle, we're all
going to struggle to beauthentic in in various settings
(25:31):
, and I'm not saying that youwalk into a dicey situation and
you're not guarded, Right, but Ido think that the more we learn
who we are, the more authenticwe approach things.
We get different results.
Yeah, and you're saying that'strue on any stage.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And basically trying to be somebody that you're not.
You're going to get back.
Yeah, you're going to get back.
Yeah, I don't want to say anegative response, but it's
certainly not going to be theresponse that's going to.
You know, that's not theresponse.
You wake up every day, excitedto embrace Totally.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
And it's tough to do that.
I'll give you another example.
So I also write speeches.
I'm a corporate speech writerand we write for executives at
tech companies and stuff likethat.
Writer and we write forexecutives at tech companies and
stuff like that.
And a couple of years ago wewere writing a speech for a
woman who was coming in as thenew CEO of a tech company.
There were two co-founders.
One of the co-founders was theCEO, the other was the CTO.
(26:36):
The CEO had just rolled off andretired, and so she was coming
in and this was her first majorpresentation as the new CEO and
the way that it was.
So no pressure.
Yeah, zero pressure at all right, and so what was pitched to us
was this is her chance forpeople to get to know who she is
.
Right, because the former CEOhad a very unique personality,
(26:59):
very distinct way ofcommunicating and people really
loved it and so it wasn't awe're judging her to see if
she's as good, but it was asense of they knew who he was.
Now they're excited about her,but they just don't know her.
They don't know who she is.
And this was her chance toreally show people who she is
(27:22):
and we start working with herand we hadn't been this excited
about working with the client ina long, long time, because what
a cool opportunity to helpsomeone discover their voice,
hone their voice and thendeliver that in a way that has
this really amazing introductionas the new CEO.
But what we found to be reallyinteresting is that the other
(27:44):
co-founder who was still therealso has a very unique
personality and people love hispresentations he has.
He's just really unique, like Idon't know another speaker like
him.
And what we found is, as wewere working with her, is she
would tell us, she would say hisname and say I need you to
(28:05):
write me some so-and-so isms andwe said what are so-and-so isms
?
She goes well.
When he hops on stage he hasthese little one-liners everyone
loves and I know y'all workwith him too.
Can I get some of thoseso-and-so isms?
And we said, well, first off,we don't actually write those.
(28:29):
Those are uniquely him, thoseare his isms, like those
one-liners.
That's just the way that hetalks and the way that he thinks
that's unique to him.
And we said but why do you wantso-and-so isms?
Why don't you want your nameisms?
And she goes well.
I know that's what people like,that's what works.
And we went back and forth ofsaying we're not going to create
you so-and-so-isms, becausethat's not you, that's not
authentic, that's you trying tobe like him, because you know
(28:49):
that people like him.
What we're trying to do is toget you to a place where people
understand who you are and theyfall in love with you, not you
doing your best impression ofso-and-so.
And it was a real struggle.
And, to be completely honest,when I go back and I watch the
presentation, there are somereally great moments.
But there are also some momentswhen we see her make a decision
(29:11):
, because we were behind thescenes.
We see her make decisions and Ican say that's not you.
That's not you.
That is you trying to cater toan audience based on what you
think they like, based on whatthey've seen in the past, as
opposed to giving them the fullversion of you that we saw
behind the scenes, that we thinkthey would know and love.
(29:32):
Because we fell in love with,like we, as soon as we saw that
version of you not the versionlike the true, authentic self
and we saw those things aboutyour personality and you told
those stories.
That's the version of you thatwe thought, oh my gosh, that's
what everyone else needs to see.
And so, even if you're on thebiggest stage, you're a CEO of a
massive company, there's stillthat level of we look around and
(29:56):
we think, well, I need to belike these other people because
that's what works, and it reallyis tough to be able to show up
and authentically deliver asyourself.
It doesn't matter if this isyour first time giving a speech
or you're a really seasoned CEO,like it's a very common
struggle across the board.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, I do think we need to show up and embrace
authenticity.
I think there's such a powerfulmessage in that right that it's
and it's.
It's not just in in publicspeaking, it's in our
relationships.
I'm sitting here thinking, man,I wish, I wish we could teach
(30:34):
this to everybody in middleschool you know, because you
think about the unique dynamicsof of people as they grow, and
it's like I can think of all thepeople that are my best friends
and I'm like, yeah, they're allincredibly unique, yeah, and
they're all quirky, totally.
They have their own isms.
(30:55):
Yeah, you know what I mean, andit's like that's part of what
their uniqueness is, part ofwhat I love about them, part of
what their uniqueness is part ofwhat I love about them.
And if they tried to be aversion of something different
to I don't know, to be morewell-liked, it's like you know,
oh, yeah, that's so-and-so, notbeing themselves, and so we kind
of pull back from that TotallyBecause it doesn't feel
(31:18):
authentic.
Yep, and you're saying thatyou're watching this happen in
real time in speeches andpresentations.
Yeah, man, I wish we couldteach kids and people this.
I mean, this is my life's work,this is your life's work.
It just comes out in differentavenues.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Totally Right and it'd be funny to think, or it
would be fun to think about astudy where you can measure
middle schoolers who were taughtto be authentic versus middle
schoolers who live the typicalmiddle school life, that believe
like I can't be myself, becauseif I was myself they won't like
(31:58):
me or they won't, you know,accept me X, y, z.
I would love to see atrajectory of what happens when
they, at a young age, begin tounderstand the power of being
authentic.
That would be fascinating.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, I think so, because one of the things that
that puts you in when you'retrying to be somebody else.
I always say in anyrelationship, in any
interpersonal dynamic, mindreading is one of the most
dangerous things that you can do.
We live in a lonely, we'reliving in a time where there's
(32:36):
this loneliness epidemic andpeople say, oh well, I just saw
something just yesterday that,oh, people are so they have more
access to therapy today thanthey have in the last hundred
years, right, and yet we havethis loneliness epidemic.
I'm like, yeah, because wedon't know us and I don't always
(33:00):
know that anytime someone sitsdown in a therapy situation, do
we fall into a trap where we'retalking constantly about
so-and-so or such-and-such or myparents, and it's that
quintessential.
Oh yeah, blame it all on yourparents.
And it's like yeah, but where'syour focus?
Totally Not on you, not ondiscovering you.
It's like, okay, great, I thinkI wear people out with this and
(33:24):
I'm okay, great, I always Ithink I wear people out with
this and I'm okay with that.
But it's like they come in andthey'll tell a story and it's
like, well, and then you know myparents did this and okay, well
, where were you in that People?
I think people are going toetch that on my, on my.
That's going to be my epitaphwhen I die is that okay?
well, where were you in that?
And it's in my question in thatis is okay, you've told me
(33:47):
about your parents, but I don'tknow about you yet and I don't
know that, as a culture, that wehave mastered that piece of it
where there's the authenticityof.
Where were you in that?
Well, I came home and you knowmy parents were griping at me
and I know I was late, but Imean, can't they just have a
little bit of flexibility, likesometimes lights turn red and
(34:10):
they don't, like you know it'sfive minutes out of light.
And I mean I'm like, yeah, andwhere were you in that?
Whoa?
Um, I don't know.
Were you frustrated?
Were you sad?
Were you embarrassed?
Yeah, I was kind of embarrassedbecause I didn't want to be in
trouble again.
Okay, let's go with embarrassed.
(34:31):
And how'd you handle yourembarrassment?
Well, I told them they werestupid.
Okay, back to them.
And so it became about themright.
Instead of it's like hey guys,I'm sorry, I'm kind of
embarrassed that I was late.
Now I get that that takes somevulnerability and authenticity
takes vulnerability and if wecan move through the world, the
(34:51):
world, in that way we canunderstand and let's, let's
change the story.
Like you're talking to somebodythat you don't, you're not
comfortable being vulnerablewith, Okay, you don't have to
say I felt embarrassed.
You just have to know, gosh,I'm operating out of a place of
embarrassment, so I need to tendto the fact that I feel
embarrassed.
(35:12):
I don't need to make myembarrassment his problem or
read his mind and think he needsto see me be a strong person
and you know, I've got to comeback at him and tell him why his
perspective is wrong or stupidor anything like that.
Yeah, and I think that that's.
You know.
You're seeing that in ways thatpeople communicate to the
(35:34):
public.
Totally.
I see that in the way thatpeople communicate with
themselves.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yeah, on that note, I'm curious your thoughts on
this.
I find that, from acommunication standpoint,
there's a difference betweentransparency and vulnerability.
Right, that transparency, Iactually think, can earn you
some points, like, like there's,you know, to me, transparency
from a communication standpointis oh, I'm going to tell a story
(36:00):
about the time that I, you know, I messed up with my wife or I
dropped the ball as a dad and Iforgot the.
You know, I went to the store,I forgot the milk and you know,
and it's really kind of designedto be like, hey, like I'm just
like everybody else Like there'ssome transparency in it and it
creates favor with your audiencebecause it makes your audience
say, oh man, he's just like usor she's just like us.
(36:21):
She's so real, she's soauthentic Because you're letting
people into your world.
But the difference, in my mind,from transparency and
vulnerability is vulnerabilityis the idea that if I tell you
this, this could change yourperspective of me, this could
change the way that you thinkabout me, because it is so real
(36:48):
me, because it is so real, it isso authentic that I'm not
covering my story in this sortof gloss of yeah, I'm telling
you something embarrassing orsomething that I did to make a
mistake, but I'm still curatingit in the sense that you get to
see inside, but you don't reallyget to see fully inside.
Versus vulnerability says I'mgoing to tell you something real
about me and I have no controlover whether you accept me or
(37:10):
reject me, and that's how it'sgoing to go.
And I find that for a lot ofpresenters, being truly
vulnerable is terrifying,because transparency is actually
pretty safe because it scoresmany points, but vulnerability I
don't know how.
This is actually pretty safeBecause it scores me points, but
vulnerability I don't know howthis is going to go.
And it could go really, reallywell.
I could get a standing ovationfor it or I could lose customers
(37:33):
.
I could lose clients.
You know, this one statementcould actually be the end of my
speaking career.
Should I let people know thisthing about me?
What are your thoughts on thedifference there between
transparency and vulnerability,when it comes to us truly being
authentic?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I think this is a great question.
I think that it's knowing youraudience.
Okay, because I don't thinkthat there are.
Oh, let me say it differently.
I believe that there are peoplethat you do not want to be
vulnerable with.
They're not safe to bevulnerable with is one to
somebody in their mind.
(38:10):
But if you truly have a personin your world who is
narcissistic and they and I meanthey meet the criteria in the
(38:30):
DSM five for narcissism, not thecolloquial oh, they're so into
themselves, they're a narcissist.
Not that but if you truly havesomebody who is very
narcissistic, then beingauthentic with them is a little
bit like, you know, opening ared, like opening your, your,
your jacket, to a red shirt, toa bull, it's like you're
(38:55):
probably going to geteviscerated.
Yeah, and I don't think thatthat's wise because you're not
being authentic with yourselffirst.
Yeah, and so I do think thattransparency for speakers makes
sense.
You don't know who's in theaudience but I do think that in
that transparency you have to bevulnerable with yourself first
(39:18):
to know what could this cost me,is it worth it and do I see it
and am I comfortable with it?
Otherwise it's not going tocome off as authentic.
And so I think that inrelationships there are certain
people that you, you may have aboss who is just hard, harsh,
and it's like I don't want to beauthentic or I'm, sorry,
(39:40):
vulnerable in saying, you know,when you said that, like man, I
really kind of beat myself upinside and really like that kind
of destroys my sense ofwellbeing.
Yeah Well good, you needed that,yeah, and maybe you need to get
stronger and tougher.
It's like that's not that'sbeing met with a fist in the
(40:01):
face, right, I always thinkabout it as um.
I love the movie elf.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
And I just, I just think that that movie has so
many great, great um metaphorsthat that show up.
And I think about when elfcrosses through and he makes it
to New York and he sees a, a, araccoon, and that raccoon he's
like oh, somebody's sad, do youneed a hug?
And the raccoon jumps on hisface and the camera cuts.
(40:28):
But the idea is that he maulshim for his sense of ignorance.
Right, and that ignorance wasvulnerable.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
And I just think there are times where I don't
know that that's appropriate.
Yeah, makes total sense, yeah,but I do think that yeah Makes
(41:28):
total sense who you are andwhere are you in that.
Well, that was embarrassing orthat was painful, okay, I think
another example to your point oflike should should we, to our
audience, be vulnerable?
I mean, you know, there's there, there are times where I'm
meeting with like a, a um, ahigh schooler or somebody in
college, or even a person who'snew to to the workplace and, you
(41:50):
know, just starting out theircareer, and especially I had a.
I had an incident or aninstance where recently, a
person who's starting out intheir career and they have
decided that they want to givesales a try, okay, and their
life is authentic.
(42:10):
They just naturally are anauthentic person.
And they came in to talk abouthow frustrated they were with
some of their coworkers becausethey feel like they can't be
authentic with them, becausethey feel like they can't be
authentic with them, they can'tbe vulnerable with them, because
, like, he laid out an idea forthis presentation that they were
all gonna collectively give andall of a sudden, these other
(42:35):
guys were like, taking his ideasand he was like, what?
Like these people aren'ttrustworthy.
And as he was realizing thatthat, he was like, okay, I have
to now think about how I canstill be authentically me but
also not give away the farm withpeople who aren't trustworthy.
(42:58):
Yeah, and it was.
It was a very interesting, um,the very cool process that he
walked through.
It's like finding his limits ofwhat he was willing to share
and what he felt like he neededto keep back.
Yeah, and even to be able toshare his frustration with these
other guys that were, you know,grabbing onto his idea and
(43:21):
twisting it to make it theirs ishow he could stand up for
himself in saying, hey, I don'tthink that's appropriate.
I'm, I am, I was part of that,and I think we need to figure
out a way where we can walkthrough this and where it's
collectively our idea, insteadof you staking, instead of
people staking their claim onthese ideas and owning them
(43:45):
holistically as their own.
And I think that, as I waswatching him now, granted, he is
very psychologically aware,very emotionally in tune, his EQ
is off the charts and he wasable to walk through that of
saying, not accusing, notdemanding, but just standing up
(44:06):
for himself without demeaningthem and I was like that's a
really.
That audience is not safe foryou to be vulnerable, to go, hey
man, that's not cool.
It kind of I'm feeling a littleleft out over here, we.
(44:27):
That is like chum in the waterfor sharks to just take him and
go, oh poor you.
Let's, let's sideline you more,right?
And I do think that you'reright that there are certain
like speakers or are c-suitefolks or you know, whatever the
situation is, where they're,like I can't be.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Well, I cannot be that vulnerable something that I
heard you say and tell me ifI'm thinking about this right,
because I do think this is sucha fascinating that it's a
fascinating idea is thatauthenticity or vulnerability is
not something that audiencesare entitled to.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
That is very well said.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Because I think that that's one of the things that
speakers feel like oh, to beauthentic as a communicator, I
have to be vulnerable, becausethose are so intertwined.
And I love the idea of sayingcertain audiences have earned
the trust to receivevulnerability and that
vulnerability is a gift, butit's not something that
(45:22):
audiences are entitled to inorder for you to be authentic.
And I think that, as acommunicator, that's a really,
really important point tounderstand, because I can be
transparent, I can have a levelof transparency and honesty
without being so vulnerable thatI just give away stuff to folks
(45:43):
who haven't earned the right orearned the trust to actually
receive that info.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I think that's very well said and I think that I
know one speaker who came outand talked about vulnerability
and then her response to thatwas she.
Her description was I have avulnerability hangover.
And I think, yeah, because ittook something from you and I'm
(46:11):
glad she gave the vulnerability,yeah, the vulnerability, and
hopefully the audiences haveearned it over time, but I don't
, I don't think we all have towalk that path.
Yeah, I remember a time where wehad an interaction with
somebody that I thought thisperson isn't safe as a family.
(46:33):
Yeah, this wasn't a familymember, it was an outside person
that we'd met once or twice andwe had bought something from
them.
It was from them, and Iremember thinking we were going
to return what we had purchasedbecause it just it wasn't
working out.
And we all agreed as a familyit wasn't working out and I
thought to myself I don't knowthat this is a safe space and so
(46:57):
I've got to walk my kidsthrough.
How do we, how do I not teachyou or how do I teach you to
have like?
Basically, there's times tocompartmentalize your emotion.
And I remember we were drivingto return the item and they were
crying and we were all sad andI said I pulled over and I said,
(47:18):
hey, listen, guys.
I said is it in?
My kids are, at this point, um,familiar with the fact that I'm
going to ask you randomquestions, that I promise
they're going somewhere?
But I said hey, guys, let meask you something.
I said when you go to school,is it appropriate for you to
wear your bathing suit?
(47:38):
And they're like, no, that'd beweird.
I said okay, if you go to thepool, would it be appropriate
for you to wear your churchclothes?
No, that'd be strange.
I said, okay, is it appropriatefor you to wear your church
clothes in the bath?
No, that'd be weird.
(47:58):
I said, okay, is it appropriatefor you to show up to school
naked?
No, that'd be really weird.
And I said, okay.
I said but is it appropriatefor you to be in the bath naked?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to church in your church
clothes?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to school in your
uniform?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to a school in your
uniform?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to the pool in your
(48:18):
bathing suit?
I said do you see that?
It's that what you're wearingand the appropriateness of it is
in the context in which youwear it.
They're like, yes, I said wherewe are going is Antarctica.
Zip it put your parka on, Okay,but when you get back into this
(48:40):
car, it is like the bathtub, itis like the shower.
You can let your emotions flow.
You're safe here.
Where we're going is notemotionally a safe place for you
to just give all your emotionsaway.
So I want you to understand thecontext with in which your
emotions are safe andappropriate.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
And that's to me.
You're that, that's I thinkwe're kind of saying similar
things that I don't think thatthe speaker is going to show up
to their presentation in theirBrazilian, you know, speedo.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Totally.
It's not appropriate.
Yeah but if they're on thebeach and they choose to wear
that.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
And so, yes, I do think that there is a context in
which and I think it depends onthe audience and any more most
all things are recorded.
So the context of the audiencespans even further beyond that
that's a great point.
And so I do think it entered.
Recording things does introducea different dynamic of how do I
want to show up, and I believehow we show up to things really
(49:47):
is about the context.
But I have to know me, to knowwhat my context is Totally.
Therefore, you know, it's likeit's like the self-awareness of
like, oh, my shirt's untucked,oh, I forgot to button my pants.
Or even, oh gosh, my fly isdown, right, right.
It's having the context ofknowing like, oh wait, I've got
(50:07):
to show up a little morebuttoned up here.
Oh, I need I can be a littlemore relaxed here.
Yeah, so you had, you said youhad, you had three tips that you
were going to give for thewedding toast.
Let's hear that third one, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
So I think the third one that I would say actually
I'm going to combine two, ifthat's okay.
Of course I know that'scheating a little bit.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I'm okay with you cheating.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
So one is to be creative, right, not kitschy,
but be creative, right, ifthere's a creative way that you
can approach something.
I remember one of my favoriteones I ever saw was a buddy of
mine was giving a toast for hisbrother and his brother was was
a big baseball fan.
(50:51):
And so he said, hey, you knowmy.
So he like hopped up there andsaid, hey, so my brother doesn't
understand a lot of things, um,but he understands baseball.
He's really good like he knowsa lot about baseball.
So I want to give him somemarriage advice based on
baseball, because I think that'swhat's going to really make him
get it.
So, hey, girl, I got you allright, like watch this.
And then he had this just reallyclever, you know description of
(51:15):
all these things that wouldmake his marriage great, using
baseball analogies or baseballterms.
And then I just happened to beat the wedding of him and his
brother gave a best man speechand he said so, my brother
actually doesn't know a lotabout a lot of things he says,
but he understands the craftbrewing experience.
(51:35):
He said so I'm going to givehim some wedding advice or some
marriage advice based on thecraft brewing experience.
And so he essentially took hisbrother's speech, flipped it on
its head and it was just thisreally fun, creative thing and
if you were at both of them youthought that's a really
memorable way to go about it.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
So be creative.
However, the other point that Iwould make this is not a moment
to assassinate someone'scharacter.
This is a moment to build themup and encourage them, and I
pair those together because Ithink that oftentimes, in the
creative process, we end upassassinating someone's
character and we think thatthat's funny, and the reality is
(52:15):
this is not the moment.
This is a moment to highlightthe fact that this is one of the
best human beings I've ever metin my entire life, and if
you're close enough to thisperson to be holding a
microphone, you should have moreammunition than anybody of what
an amazing person.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
This is right.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
And oftentimes folks will hop up there and they'll be
like hey, so I'm going to giveyou five things that you should
know about living with so-and-so.
I've been roommates with Joefor seven years and so, sarah,
you know good luck.
First thing you should knowabout Joe he's super messy.
Point number two he neverwashes dishes and it's like dude
(52:56):
one.
No one cares about that.
This is not the time versussaying hey, so I've.
I've lived with joe for sevenyears.
I know more about living withjoe than anybody on the planet.
So I'm gonna give you seventhings that you should know
about living with joe.
Number one he is the mostthoughtful roommate I've ever
had in my entire life.
Number two he you know, if youcome home at the end of the day,
(53:19):
it doesn't matter what's goingon in Joe's life.
He actually wants to hearwhat's happening in your day,
and I think you're going to findthat to be an absolute delight
at the end of a really long,long day.
Number three right, and you canjust like mix stuff up.
So, so I do do it in a way thatbuilds people up, as opposed to
(53:41):
assassinating their character,because far too many people just
choose that as a moment to ragon their friends, and it's not a
roast.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
I think this is an you bring up an interesting
point, because you talked aboutthe idea of the study with the
junior hires.
I would love, I would love tointerview the best men, the best
, the brides, the maid of honorwhatever.
I would love to interview theperson that steps off of a
speech like that and say wherewere you in that, Like, help me
(54:12):
understand where your psyche waswhen you wrote that speech?
Yeah, Because I I would bet adecent amount of money on the
fact that there was some levelof something going on inside of
that person giving the speechthat prevented them from truly
(54:34):
connecting with the positiveabout what was going on for Joe.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, totally, and I think thatour lack of self-awareness and
I know that that's a buzzword,oh, I'm so self-aware I would
posit that no, you're not.
You're aware of what's aroundyou Right.
That's called environmentallyaware, but you are not aware of
self, because a self awareperson I don't.
(55:00):
I don't believe, if they wereasked to stand instead with
somebody like that, that a selfaware person would truly go
eviscerate the character or themaybe not the character, but
whatever they're not going to goeviscerate a person that they
are that close to, to your point.
And so it's like, really, howare you showing up?
(55:22):
Because how you show up impactseverything, everything in how
you communicate, because Ireally believe that what we're
communicating is why I hatesarcasm.
I love I shouldn't say that Ilove sarcasm.
If sarcasm is not the expenseat the expense of another person
and it's not mocking or chiding.
(55:43):
I hate mocking and chidinghumor.
I don't like it, and itunfortunately tells me a lot
about the person that'sdelivering the humor.
So I'm like dang, where are you?
Why are you so frustrated?
Yeah, what's going on inside ofthat head of yours?
Totally, I'd love to get inthere and tinker around and
understand you better, but Isure don't want to be on the
other end, the receiving end, ofthat stinger.
(56:05):
Totally, I don't like it.
You know what you do, what, whatwe do, what we're talking about
, is far more than giving likeorating, or giving a speech.
(56:26):
We're talking about leaving alegacy, because our words have
impact positive, negative,neutral and your whole career
has been around, been a part of,or been focused around leaving
a positive legacy empoweringpeople, encouraging people,
(56:49):
teaching people and that's whatI feel like my life, my life's
work has been as well, and Ithink what we're both saying is
man, it's time to show upauthentically.
It's time to show up as you notan angry you, not overly
vulnerable you, butauthentically you.
Because the thing that I wantedmy kids to understand about zip
(57:12):
it like we're in Antarctica isyou can be authentic in your uh,
arctic coat, right, your parka,your parka.
You can be an authentic personin a parka, but you don't want
to be vulnerable to everything?
Yeah, but it's like man, can wecreate a space where people are
(57:33):
more willing and thoughtfulabout who they are?
Right?
I think it's a huge call outthere.
Yeah, so, man, thanks forpopping in here and having this
great conversation.
I love it.
I always love talking to you.
Same here.
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch.
I'm Dr Lee Long here for opendiscussions, helpful tools and
real-life ways to show up asyour best self.
Together, we'll explore what ittakes to live with clarity,
purpose and hope.
I went to a wedding recentlyand the best man's speech was so
(00:22):
perfectly on point.
And the best man's speech wasso perfectly on point.
Later I learned his speech wasinspired by Josh Story's book
Wedding Toast Don't have to Suck.
Great title right, it remindedme.
Great speeches, like greatlives, start with truly knowing
the subject.
In our mental wellness, thatsubject is you.
(00:44):
In this episode, josh and Italk about storytelling,
authenticity and how to show upwell on stage and in everyday
life.
Your path to mental wellnessstarts here.
One of the things that I wantto make sure that I read is I
came across something that youwrote Okay, and I want to read
(01:08):
this and I want to get your takeon this.
So, you, you, uh, on LinkedIn.
I found you there, Okay, andunder the about section you said
the short version I buildthings out of words.
The longer version is whatcaught me.
The longer version is, you sayI grew up with a pretty gnarly
(01:31):
stutter.
That means I grew up with adeep frustration over the
inability to say what I wantedto say and how I wanted to say
it.
But something pretty dramatichappened in first grade.
I learned to write.
All of a sudden, a new worldwas open to me.
With a pen in my hand, I couldbe funny, I could be insightful,
(01:52):
I could be poetic.
With a pen in my hand, I couldfinally be fluent.
Yeah, when I read that, itstopped me in my tracks.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I love that.
Thanks, man.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Why do you think it stopped you in your tracks?
Because I think a lot of peoplesee things that they have to
(02:33):
overcome or get to overcome asdeficits, as, like I am stuck
this way and it's like you foundsuch a beautiful workaround and
I mean, you're a guy who is apublic speaker and and you
started like the the, youstarted this with a hat.
I grew up with a pretty gnarlystutter, yeah, and most people,
I'm imagining that feel likethere's a deficit there or
something that they don't wantto necessarily interact with.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah.
So I might be jumping ahead alittle bit, Jump away, but I
actually share that story everysingle time I meet with a new
client, and specifically when Ido speaker coaching.
Because what's reallyinteresting with speaker
coaching is you have those whoraise their hand and they say
I've identified some areas whereI want to grow, Can you help me
(03:18):
grow?
Or they've been voluntold andsomeone has said, hey, you have
areas where you need to grow.
We want you to go see thisperson, which I would imagine is
very similar to counseling aswell.
There's folks who say I want tobe here and then others are
like my mom or whoever is makingme come my wife, my dad?
Yeah, exactly.
And so what I found is thatwhen I share that story from the
(03:40):
front end, I always share thatstory and I'll say I tell you
that because, while you don'thave a stutter, you probably
feel stuck.
I said I know what it's like tofeel stuck.
I know what it's like to feelstuck and what this process is
designed to do is to help youfeel unstuck, because there are
a few things more discouragingthan not being able to say
(04:01):
things the way that you want to.
There are a few things moreexhilarating than knowing that
you absolutely nailed apresentation.
I was like so, wherever you are,if things aren't coming out
right, I was like that's whyyou're here.
It's like you're here because,on some level, the words just
aren't coming out the way thatyou want them to.
So that was my whole childhood,growing up.
I was like so I get that on adeep, deep level, and so we're
(04:23):
going to help you get to a spotwhere things do come out right
and you can almost see liketheir shoulders just go.
And I found that, from a storystandpoint, there is something
about just telling that storythat builds a little bit of
connection.
They feel more connected to me.
But also there's a level ofthey have a framework with which
they can now view what we'reabout to do, and so, yeah, I
(04:46):
tell that story whenever I can,because people seem to connect
with it.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, I mean, I connected with it when I read it
, because I remember the firsttime I heard you speak, I was I
mean, I'm not trying to fluffyour cushion here but I truly
was blown away by what you weresaying and I just thought, wow,
what a just the moxie, thecourage, the yeah, the all of
(05:16):
those for you to be a guy whohad struggled with that and to
be up there and it's like here Iam, because I have really good
things to say, and that did notimpede you.
I love that.
Thanks, man.
The last paragraph of it sayswhile most people don't know
what it's like to have a stutter, everyone knows the frustration
(05:37):
or knows how frustrating it canbe when things just don't come
out right, and that's what getsme out of bed every morning.
Yeah, it's helping people findthe joy and the freedom of being
able to say exactly what theywant to say and how to say it.
Yeah, so you wrote a book.
I did.
You've actually written three,am I right about that?
Yeah, okay, the first two wereabout well, I shouldn't say the
(06:01):
first because I don't know whatorder they're in yeah, but the
two of them are about your faithand about common grace and that
theme, am I right?
Yep, but the other book thatyou wrote, which to me is wildly
intriguing and the title I love, is how Wedding Toasts Don't
(06:21):
have to Suck Yep, I love thatAgain.
I love the way you communicate,so walk me through that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So we've all been at the wedding, right, where
everyone's having a great time.
Then the glasses begin to clinkand you look up and you realize
that some drunk best man has amicrophone in his hand and
everyone is thinking, oh Lord,do I have enough time to make it
to the bathroom before thiswhole thing starts right and
(06:53):
just hide out?
I am of the persuasion that Ithink that the wedding toasts,
like the wedding speeches,should be the most memorable
part of an entire reception,that people should, like hop in
the car and think what an honorit was for us to get to go to
that wedding, what an honor thatwe were invited because of what
(07:17):
they said about the couple.
That it's a reminder of what aprivilege it is for you as the
guest to be here because thesepeople are so amazing, reminder
of what a privilege it is foryou as the guest to be here
because these people are soamazing.
And oftentimes the conversationin the car is oh my gosh, that
guy was hammered.
Or oh my gosh, like that was souncomfortable to sit through.
Or oh my gosh, like I felt sobad for that bridesmaid.
She was clearly so nervous.
(07:38):
And so we walk away typicallythinking about something
completely different than whatshould be happening.
And so I had a lot of folks overthe years approach me and say,
hey, you write speeches andstuff like that.
I have to go give a best mantoast, I have to go give a man
of honor speech, can you help medo it?
And so I just kind of sat downand wrote it all down because it
(07:59):
was stuff that I was kind ofsaying that I kind of assumed
was common knowledge and I wouldhave these looks of saying that
I kind of assume was commonknowledge and I would have these
looks of that's so helpful.
Thank you so much.
I go okay, cool.
And so, yeah, just wrote it alldown and, you know, made a book
out of it.
And I always tell people whenI'm talking about I said you
know, floral arrangements areimportant but floral
(08:19):
arrangements don't ruinfriendships.
Best man speeches do, and youknow.
So if you're choosing on whatyou should really invest in,
maybe spend $7 and invest in thespeech that could turn either
an embarrassing or forgettable,because that's typically the
spectrum.
Right, that this is either man,this is really embarrassing or
(08:42):
it's forgettable.
But if you could change thespectrum and you can actually
make that the most meaningfulmoment in the reception.
So that's kind of the impetusthere.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
How would one go about that?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Writing a speech like that.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, just what are some of the highlights, without
giving it all away.
Yeah, yeah totally Because youshould go to Amazon and you
should buy this book.
Tell me the title again WeddingToast Don't have to Suck.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
See, that's just brilliant.
So I'll give you my threefavorite tips.
Okay, one and this is going tosound, I mean, all of these
sound so basic One is that youhave to remember that the speech
is not about you, it's aboutthe couple, and that should be
(09:26):
like well duh.
But you'd be surprised at howmany times folks hop up there
and they start telling storiesabout themselves disguised as
the story about the couple.
Okay, say more about that.
So it's always easier for us totalk about ourselves, right?
And so what you find is thatpeople will so like.
An example of this, there was aguy who I saw giving a toast.
Honestly, half of these arejust really bad.
There was a guy who I sawgiving a toast.
Honestly, half of these arejust really bad examples I saw
(09:48):
and I was like, do the oppositeof that.
But I saw this guy stand up andhe had met his wife, because
the guy that was getting marriedintroduced them, and so his
entire story was really abouthow he met his wife, and then at
the end he kind of tacked onand that's the kind of friend
that so-and-so is, and it's likeyou just told us your entire
(10:12):
story about meeting your wifeand the only connection to the
groom is that he was the one whoinitially instigated that.
He was the one that said, hey,you should meet so-and-so.
And I remember thinking I waslike I know nothing about the
groom.
I know nothing about the groomexcept for the fact that he
hooked y'all up and you justspent 15 minutes telling me a
story that was not about thegroom, it was about you and your
(10:33):
love, not his love.
And so even just like stufflike that or like, hey, you know
, you know, if you tell a story,oftentimes it's hey, so me and
Joe, we were roommates freshmanyear and this crazy thing
happened.
And you hear the story andyou're like I don't know what
that has to do with Joe or whywe're here or why he's going to
be a great husband, and sooftentimes we just tell stories
(10:55):
about ourselves because we thinkthe stories are great and fun,
but they're not about the couple.
So step one is like naked aboutthe couple, not about you,
they're not about the couple.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So.
So step one is like naked aboutthe couple, not about you,
because what we tend to do is wetend to tell the story about us
, but thinking we're talkingabout the other person Because
there's a principle, and this is.
This is really part of thereason why I wanted us to have
this podcast today is because II see what you and I do, yeah,
is very, very similar.
(11:25):
Oh, totally.
And the thing that I see in myoffice often is that people
think that they're talking aboutand this is going to be a
little reverse People think thatthey're talking about
themselves, people think thatthey're telling a great story,
right, but really what'shappening is is that I am
looking to you to tell me aboutme.
(11:46):
So it is the inverse, but ithas a very similar impact, where
that comes across as selfish.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right In a marriage will I say this all the time If
you would quit focusing on yourspouse and what they did and
telling me how you hurt myfeelings and you did this and
you said these mean things to me, and if you don't stop this,
then we can't stay together andit's like we're focused on the
(12:17):
wrong person, and that's whatyou're saying in these speeches.
Like you're saying yeah, that'sfine to tell a story about you,
as long as it includes thegroom or the bride or the groom.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Totally yeah, a hundred percent.
I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world.
Otherwise, it's very irrelevantand you've lost your audience.
The same when you're as aparent, you know you're wearing
me out.
Today you are acting so poorly,or you found your opinion and I
don't know what to do with youand it's like the audience is
like well, I don't know whereyou are, or why, you're talking
(12:53):
and it's, I believe, as we'vetalked about this.
You know, I believe it's a verysimilar theme.
You're losing your audience.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Totally 100 love that .
So that's that one.
A few more that I will I'llthrow out uh.
Two is uh, have a point,meaning that oftentimes there's
not a, there's not a point thereis.
You just tell some stories fromcollege and you say something
(13:22):
pseudo-sentimental at the endhey, you know, cheers to the
happy couple and that's it.
And people are like, I don'tokay, I mean cool, like yeah,
yeah, fun story, but I don'tknow what that was about, right?
So even if it's so, like that'seven going from, it's not that
it's about you, it's not aboutanything, you know, it's just,
it's just something that y'allexperienced.
And so I always tell peoplefind like one thing because like
(13:45):
, really, it's not going to be along speech Like, find one
thing, one character, quality,one thing that you think is
going to make this person agreat husband, a great wife,
that one thing to say hey, thisis why you're so lucky to be
married to this person, right,like one thing that makes the
people in the crowd go oh mygosh, that's beautiful.
So, like makes the people inthe crowd go oh my gosh, that's
(14:06):
beautiful.
So like and like, have like ahave a point to it.
So like when, when my bestfriend got married.
I was giving his speech and andI I talked about how, from from
the moment that we were born,we were best friends.
Our parents had been friendsbefore we were born and I told
this story about how my dadcoached our basketball team as a
(14:28):
kid and how my dad used to callus the dynamic duo, because we
would play basketball just forfun all day, every day, and so
we just always knew where eachother was and stuff like that,
and it was one of those thingsthat my dad told us behind the
scenes.
Right, that's not like a monikerthat he would say in front of
the team you know, and so and soone day we were down by a few
(14:51):
points and my dad kind of calleda you know time out in the
huddle and I, in front of thewhole team, I'd said dad is a
time for the dynamic duo.
And my dad says sit down he'slike because you know it was
like it's like you don't justcall yourself the dynamic duo in
front of the rest of the team,and so I made this joke of us.
(15:12):
I said that was the first timethat the dynamic duo had ever
been separated was in that game.
I was like that was the firsttime that had ever happened
until tonight.
And tonight there's a newdynamic duo.
That's happening, right, rightthat like we've been best
friends our entire lives and nowhe gets to be a part of a new
dynamic duo.
And this is why you are solucky to be a part of this duo,
(15:34):
why you are so lucky to be thenew addition of this duo, and I
was able to kind of talk aboutthat, right, and so that's just
a just like having a point,having something to say, that
kind of building it around it,and so it can be that it can be
an experience, it can be a story, it can be a characteristic and
really just finding that onething that you want to highlight
(15:54):
about the person and buildingsomething around that.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yeah, and I think that's first of all.
That's beautiful.
Like I was, I had chillslistening to that, going dang.
I wish I wish I had that speechsaid about me or you know what
I'm saying?
Yeah, or or could be a part ofthat, like because that really
is a peek into sort of the likea, a private like, like you got
(16:18):
to peek into his private worldin a very appropriate and
uplifting manner.
Yeah and gosh, what a gift.
Yeah, were there lots of tears?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
or cheers.
There were a few.
I think what's been funny is, Iwould say, I don't think I'm
naturally a great speech writer,I just think I work really hard
at it, and I think that that'sjust kind of been my MO as a kid
is because I always feel likebecause of the stutter, I was
always starting a few steps backand so I just became really
(16:53):
obsessed with wanting to do thiswell, and so I just worked hard
at it and I was actually givinga speech at a wedding one time
and there were three of us guysgiving a speech and I remember
the first guy was a dentist andhe didn't want to give the
speech.
He was really nervous and hesaid can I go first?
(17:13):
I just want to get this thingover with.
And we're like yeah, man,totally.
And then the other guy was likeyou know what, josh?
How about you go second?
And then I'll like I'll likefinish it up.
And I said, all right, cool man.
I was like I was like sure,cause, I mean I can go last too,
I don't mind.
He's like no, no, no, no, likeyou go.
And then I'll like bring ushome.
I was like okay, and then, theback of my mind.
I was thinking I don't say, hey, man, maybe I go last, and I
(17:47):
was like, okay, so the first guygoes, he does what he can and
it's great.
He kind of stays in his lane,does.
Well, I get up and I give avery thoughtful speech and
everyone claps and stuff likethat and you can kind of feel
the emotion in the room BecauseI think I just put some thought
into it and the guy grabs themicrophone and he goes.
(18:09):
You hustled me.
I forgot that you're aprofessional speech writer.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
He's like how am I supposed to follow that?
I was like I tried, man, Itried to you know, give you.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
But you know, I think that's part of it too.
It's just point.
If you just have a thought,it's just going to set you apart
significantly from folks whoare just get up there and wing
it.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
I think that's right.
I think that you bring up areally interesting point, though
, is that you feel like you'recoming from behind, and so you
work really hard in this, andone of the things that I love
about what you're explaining orwhat you're what you're talking
about is is that you, you know,you, you know, I know my
(18:52):
limitations, but I'm not definedby those.
Yes, I use those and say I knowwhat I have to offer, and
you're a grinder Like that'spart of your character.
Yeah, is that?
I mean?
That's fair to say.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I'm sure you've heard that before.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
You're a guy who's not afraid of hard work.
I've known you for a very longtime and I've never seen you shy
away from hard work or anythingdifficult like ever.
And I think that that is partof your character and it's like
you know you well and being ableto walk that out and and and
(19:31):
have a point, it's like, okay, Iknow what I have to offer, and
that's me.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And I'm going to offer me by way of then now
learning you or like having mypoint and getting there, and
it's really powerful.
Thanks, man.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, I will say.
I think it took me a long timeto get there, though, and I
think that anyone who givesspeeches or is in public
speaking at all- I think thenatural inclination is we all
want to be like an off-brandversion of our favorite speaker,
and I think that that's kind ofwhere I was for a long time is
I was just doing my best MattChandler impression, or I was
(20:12):
doing my best, you know, insertpublic speaker here my best
Simon Sinek impression orwhoever and I remember the
moment that it clicked for me ofreally kind of knowing who I
was as a communicator was I was.
I was a pastor at the time andI had just taken over for a guy
who got promoted and and so youknow, oftentimes if you get a
(20:33):
new job in ministry specifically, it's either usually it's hey,
this thing is tanking, and weneed you to like spice it up and
do whatever Right.
And I was in a really uniqueposition where it wasn't hey,
this is tanking, it's actually,this is going really really well
, so well that this guy gotpromoted.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So now don't rock the boat, like don't you know,
don't mess this good thing up,right.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Exactly.
And the guy who had created itis a mutual friend of ours, has
a very specific personality andhas a very specific dynamism on
stage, right, the way that hespeaks is so unique that I
remember thinking, well, that'show I need to speak when I
preach.
I mean, that's what built thisthing, that's what, like, that's
(21:16):
the type of communication thatthis audience is drawn to.
So I need to be like him.
And it took about, you knowRight.
So I need to be like him.
And it took about, you know,probably a year, a full year,
before I realized that his humorisn't my humor, his delivery
isn't my delivery, the way thathe illustrates isn't the way
that I illustrate, the way thathe structures isn't the way that
(21:36):
I structure.
And when I realized that I hadto figure out who am I as a
communicator, that's when thingsreally started to click.
And because I do think for alot of folks and I see this a
lot, especially with youngpastors is it's, you know,
whoever the hottest preacher isat the moment.
You know they're, you know, anoff-brand Matt Chandler,
(21:57):
off-brand John Mark Comer,off-brand Andy Stanley.
You know, fill in the blank,they're trying to find the guy
that they listen to the most andthey're just doing their best
impression.
And I think that there'ssomething about learning and the
time it takes and it's a bit oftrial and error, right Of
learning.
Uh, that joke didn't work.
Why?
Because that's not how I talk,that's not how I make a joke,
(22:18):
that's not how I deliver a joke.
Or that illustration didn'tland.
Why?
It's because I don't.
I didn't find that illustrationdidn't land.
Why it's because I didn't findthat illustration interesting,
or that's not how I think aboutthings.
I was just trying to take thatperson's illustration and plug
it in here because it worked forthem, so surely it would work
for me.
And this takes time to kind oflearn who you are.
But then I feel like once youlearn who you are as a
(22:40):
communicator, that's when itgets really, really fun, because
you're not trying to be someoneelse, you're really stepping
into how God has wired you as acommunicator and that's a blast.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
You know, the cool thing about what you're saying
is that authenticity is whatresonates the most with other
people.
There was a study done wherethey were measuring the energy
waves.
And this isn't woo-woo, but wedo emit energy.
You do feel other people'spresence and they they were
(23:15):
looking at the, the energy thatwas being emitted in this.
I forget what it's called, butit's like a.
It's like a box that they putpeople in.
It's a big one.
It's not like a coffin, it's abig box.
So those of us who areclaustrophobic, it was a nice
spacious box, but they put themin there where there's no other
energy waves that were impactingthe reading of the energy and
people.
You know, when we say what'sthe greatest impact of energy,
(23:39):
people usually say, oh, it'slove or it's joy or it's some
positive emotion.
That's not what they found,it's authenticity, and that when
someone is open and meets youwith their authenticity, then
your waves collide and theydouble.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And so there's, all of a sudden, this ah, I can be,
and it's like an encouragementto be yourself.
Yeah, for almost three decades.
(24:20):
That that's what people want isI want to know that I'm
acceptable, I want to be known,I want to be loved, I want to be
, you know, accepted.
Well, what you're talking aboutis I'm going to go up there in
front of an entire crowd orcongregation, whatever the,
whatever the situation is, andI'm going to be somebody that's
(24:42):
not me.
And what's the impact on theaudience?
Right, it's pretty stale fromwhat you're saying, but when I
go up there and if I tell astory or give an illustration or
try to tell a joke that is notin line with my sense of humor,
then the energy that I'm sendingout is not going to be that
(25:05):
great Totally.
So what am I producing outthere?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Right.
So okay, let's take it from thescale of a big group, let's
take it to a group of friends.
Let's take it to one-on-onewith your partner, your spouse,
whatever your best friend.
One-on-one with your partner,your spouse, whatever your best
friend.
Yeah, it's like if and look, Iknow we struggle, we're all
going to struggle to beauthentic in in various settings
(25:31):
, and I'm not saying that youwalk into a dicey situation and
you're not guarded, Right, but Ido think that the more we learn
who we are, the more authenticwe approach things.
We get different results.
Yeah, and you're saying that'strue on any stage.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And basically trying to be somebody that you're not.
You're going to get back.
Yeah, you're going to get back.
Yeah, I don't want to say anegative response, but it's
certainly not going to be theresponse that's going to.
You know, that's not theresponse.
You wake up every day, excitedto embrace Totally.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
And it's tough to do that.
I'll give you another example.
So I also write speeches.
I'm a corporate speech writerand we write for executives at
tech companies and stuff likethat.
Writer and we write forexecutives at tech companies and
stuff like that.
And a couple of years ago wewere writing a speech for a
woman who was coming in as thenew CEO of a tech company.
There were two co-founders.
One of the co-founders was theCEO, the other was the CTO.
(26:36):
The CEO had just rolled off andretired, and so she was coming
in and this was her first majorpresentation as the new CEO and
the way that it was.
So no pressure.
Yeah, zero pressure at all right, and so what was pitched to us
was this is her chance forpeople to get to know who she is
.
Right, because the former CEOhad a very unique personality,
(26:59):
very distinct way ofcommunicating and people really
loved it and so it wasn't awe're judging her to see if
she's as good, but it was asense of they knew who he was.
Now they're excited about her,but they just don't know her.
They don't know who she is.
And this was her chance toreally show people who she is
(27:22):
and we start working with herand we hadn't been this excited
about working with the client ina long, long time, because what
a cool opportunity to helpsomeone discover their voice,
hone their voice and thendeliver that in a way that has
this really amazing introductionas the new CEO.
But what we found to be reallyinteresting is that the other
(27:44):
co-founder who was still therealso has a very unique
personality and people love hispresentations he has.
He's just really unique, like Idon't know another speaker like
him.
And what we found is, as wewere working with her, is she
would tell us, she would say hisname and say I need you to
(28:05):
write me some so-and-so isms andwe said what are so-and-so isms
?
She goes well.
When he hops on stage he hasthese little one-liners everyone
loves and I know y'all workwith him too.
Can I get some of thoseso-and-so isms?
And we said, well, first off,we don't actually write those.
(28:29):
Those are uniquely him, thoseare his isms, like those
one-liners.
That's just the way that hetalks and the way that he thinks
that's unique to him.
And we said but why do you wantso-and-so isms?
Why don't you want your nameisms?
And she goes well.
I know that's what people like,that's what works.
And we went back and forth ofsaying we're not going to create
you so-and-so-isms, becausethat's not you, that's not
authentic, that's you trying tobe like him, because you know
(28:49):
that people like him.
What we're trying to do is toget you to a place where people
understand who you are and theyfall in love with you, not you
doing your best impression ofso-and-so.
And it was a real struggle.
And, to be completely honest,when I go back and I watch the
presentation, there are somereally great moments.
But there are also some momentswhen we see her make a decision
(29:11):
, because we were behind thescenes.
We see her make decisions and Ican say that's not you.
That's not you.
That is you trying to cater toan audience based on what you
think they like, based on whatthey've seen in the past, as
opposed to giving them the fullversion of you that we saw
behind the scenes, that we thinkthey would know and love.
(29:32):
Because we fell in love with,like we, as soon as we saw that
version of you not the versionlike the true, authentic self
and we saw those things aboutyour personality and you told
those stories.
That's the version of you thatwe thought, oh my gosh, that's
what everyone else needs to see.
And so, even if you're on thebiggest stage, you're a CEO of a
massive company, there's stillthat level of we look around and
(29:56):
we think, well, I need to belike these other people because
that's what works, and it reallyis tough to be able to show up
and authentically deliver asyourself.
It doesn't matter if this isyour first time giving a speech
or you're a really seasoned CEO,like it's a very common
struggle across the board.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, I do think we need to show up and embrace
authenticity.
I think there's such a powerfulmessage in that right that it's
and it's.
It's not just in in publicspeaking, it's in our
relationships.
I'm sitting here thinking, man,I wish, I wish we could teach
(30:34):
this to everybody in middleschool you know, because you
think about the unique dynamicsof of people as they grow, and
it's like I can think of all thepeople that are my best friends
and I'm like, yeah, they're allincredibly unique, yeah, and
they're all quirky, totally.
They have their own isms.
(30:55):
Yeah, you know what I mean, andit's like that's part of what
their uniqueness is, part ofwhat I love about them, part of
what their uniqueness is part ofwhat I love about them.
And if they tried to be aversion of something different
to I don't know, to be morewell-liked, it's like you know,
oh, yeah, that's so-and-so, notbeing themselves, and so we kind
of pull back from that TotallyBecause it doesn't feel
(31:18):
authentic.
Yep, and you're saying thatyou're watching this happen in
real time in speeches andpresentations.
Yeah, man, I wish we couldteach kids and people this.
I mean, this is my life's work,this is your life's work.
It just comes out in differentavenues.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Totally Right and it'd be funny to think, or it
would be fun to think about astudy where you can measure
middle schoolers who were taughtto be authentic versus middle
schoolers who live the typicalmiddle school life, that believe
like I can't be myself, becauseif I was myself they won't like
(31:58):
me or they won't, you know,accept me X, y, z.
I would love to see atrajectory of what happens when
they, at a young age, begin tounderstand the power of being
authentic.
That would be fascinating.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah, I think so, because one of the things that
that puts you in when you'retrying to be somebody else.
I always say in anyrelationship, in any
interpersonal dynamic, mindreading is one of the most
dangerous things that you can do.
We live in a lonely, we'reliving in a time where there's
(32:36):
this loneliness epidemic andpeople say, oh well, I just saw
something just yesterday that,oh, people are so they have more
access to therapy today thanthey have in the last hundred
years, right, and yet we havethis loneliness epidemic.
I'm like, yeah, because wedon't know us and I don't always
(33:00):
know that anytime someone sitsdown in a therapy situation, do
we fall into a trap where we'retalking constantly about
so-and-so or such-and-such or myparents, and it's that
quintessential.
Oh yeah, blame it all on yourparents.
And it's like yeah, but where'syour focus?
Totally Not on you, not ondiscovering you.
It's like, okay, great, I thinkI wear people out with this and
(33:24):
I'm okay, great, I always Ithink I wear people out with
this and I'm okay with that.
But it's like they come in andthey'll tell a story and it's
like, well, and then you know myparents did this and okay, well
, where were you in that People?
I think people are going toetch that on my, on my.
That's going to be my epitaphwhen I die is that okay?
well, where were you in that?
And it's in my question in thatis is okay, you've told me
(33:47):
about your parents, but I don'tknow about you yet and I don't
know that, as a culture, that wehave mastered that piece of it
where there's the authenticityof.
Where were you in that?
Well, I came home and you knowmy parents were griping at me
and I know I was late, but Imean, can't they just have a
little bit of flexibility, likesometimes lights turn red and
(34:10):
they don't, like you know it'sfive minutes out of light.
And I mean I'm like, yeah, andwhere were you in that?
Whoa?
Um, I don't know.
Were you frustrated?
Were you sad?
Were you embarrassed?
Yeah, I was kind of embarrassedbecause I didn't want to be in
trouble again.
Okay, let's go with embarrassed.
(34:31):
And how'd you handle yourembarrassment?
Well, I told them they werestupid.
Okay, back to them.
And so it became about themright.
Instead of it's like hey guys,I'm sorry, I'm kind of
embarrassed that I was late.
Now I get that that takes somevulnerability and authenticity
takes vulnerability and if wecan move through the world, the
(34:51):
world, in that way we canunderstand and let's, let's
change the story.
Like you're talking to somebodythat you don't, you're not
comfortable being vulnerablewith, Okay, you don't have to
say I felt embarrassed.
You just have to know, gosh,I'm operating out of a place of
embarrassment, so I need to tendto the fact that I feel
embarrassed.
(35:12):
I don't need to make myembarrassment his problem or
read his mind and think he needsto see me be a strong person
and you know, I've got to comeback at him and tell him why his
perspective is wrong or stupidor anything like that.
Yeah, and I think that that's.
You know.
You're seeing that in ways thatpeople communicate to the
(35:34):
public.
Totally.
I see that in the way thatpeople communicate with
themselves.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yeah, on that note, I'm curious your thoughts on
this.
I find that, from acommunication standpoint,
there's a difference betweentransparency and vulnerability.
Right, that transparency, Iactually think, can earn you
some points, like, like there's,you know, to me, transparency
from a communication standpointis oh, I'm going to tell a story
(36:00):
about the time that I, you know, I messed up with my wife or I
dropped the ball as a dad and Iforgot the.
You know, I went to the store,I forgot the milk and you know,
and it's really kind of designedto be like, hey, like I'm just
like everybody else Like there'ssome transparency in it and it
creates favor with your audiencebecause it makes your audience
say, oh man, he's just like usor she's just like us.
(36:21):
She's so real, she's soauthentic Because you're letting
people into your world.
But the difference, in my mind,from transparency and
vulnerability is vulnerabilityis the idea that if I tell you
this, this could change yourperspective of me, this could
change the way that you thinkabout me, because it is so real
(36:48):
me, because it is so real, it isso authentic that I'm not
covering my story in this sortof gloss of yeah, I'm telling
you something embarrassing orsomething that I did to make a
mistake, but I'm still curatingit in the sense that you get to
see inside, but you don't reallyget to see fully inside.
Versus vulnerability says I'mgoing to tell you something real
about me and I have no controlover whether you accept me or
(37:10):
reject me, and that's how it'sgoing to go.
And I find that for a lot ofpresenters, being truly
vulnerable is terrifying,because transparency is actually
pretty safe because it scoresmany points, but vulnerability I
don't know how.
This is actually pretty safeBecause it scores me points, but
vulnerability I don't know howthis is going to go.
And it could go really, reallywell.
I could get a standing ovationfor it or I could lose customers
(37:33):
.
I could lose clients.
You know, this one statementcould actually be the end of my
speaking career.
Should I let people know thisthing about me?
What are your thoughts on thedifference there between
transparency and vulnerability,when it comes to us truly being
authentic?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I think this is a great question.
I think that it's knowing youraudience.
Okay, because I don't thinkthat there are.
Oh, let me say it differently.
I believe that there are peoplethat you do not want to be
vulnerable with.
They're not safe to bevulnerable with is one to
somebody in their mind.
(38:10):
But if you truly have a personin your world who is
narcissistic and they and I meanthey meet the criteria in the
(38:30):
DSM five for narcissism, not thecolloquial oh, they're so into
themselves, they're a narcissist.
Not that but if you truly havesomebody who is very
narcissistic, then beingauthentic with them is a little
bit like, you know, opening ared, like opening your, your,
your jacket, to a red shirt, toa bull, it's like you're
(38:55):
probably going to geteviscerated.
Yeah, and I don't think thatthat's wise because you're not
being authentic with yourselffirst.
Yeah, and so I do think thattransparency for speakers makes
sense.
You don't know who's in theaudience but I do think that in
that transparency you have to bevulnerable with yourself first
(39:18):
to know what could this cost me,is it worth it and do I see it
and am I comfortable with it?
Otherwise it's not going tocome off as authentic.
And so I think that inrelationships there are certain
people that you, you may have aboss who is just hard, harsh,
and it's like I don't want to beauthentic or I'm, sorry,
(39:40):
vulnerable in saying, you know,when you said that, like man, I
really kind of beat myself upinside and really like that kind
of destroys my sense ofwellbeing.
Yeah Well good, you needed that,yeah, and maybe you need to get
stronger and tougher.
It's like that's not that'sbeing met with a fist in the
(40:01):
face, right, I always thinkabout it as um.
I love the movie elf.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
And I just, I just think that that movie has so
many great, great um metaphorsthat that show up.
And I think about when elfcrosses through and he makes it
to New York and he sees a, a, araccoon, and that raccoon he's
like oh, somebody's sad, do youneed a hug?
And the raccoon jumps on hisface and the camera cuts.
(40:28):
But the idea is that he maulshim for his sense of ignorance.
Right, and that ignorance wasvulnerable.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
And I just think there are times where I don't
know that that's appropriate.
Yeah, makes total sense, yeah,but I do think that yeah Makes
(41:28):
total sense who you are andwhere are you in that.
Well, that was embarrassing orthat was painful, okay, I think
another example to your point oflike should should we, to our
audience, be vulnerable?
I mean, you know, there's there, there are times where I'm
meeting with like a, a um, ahigh schooler or somebody in
college, or even a person who'snew to to the workplace and, you
(41:50):
know, just starting out theircareer, and especially I had a.
I had an incident or aninstance where recently, a
person who's starting out intheir career and they have
decided that they want to givesales a try, okay, and their
life is authentic.
(42:10):
They just naturally are anauthentic person.
And they came in to talk abouthow frustrated they were with
some of their coworkers becausethey feel like they can't be
authentic with them, becausethey feel like they can't be
authentic with them, they can'tbe vulnerable with them, because
, like, he laid out an idea forthis presentation that they were
all gonna collectively give andall of a sudden, these other
(42:35):
guys were like, taking his ideasand he was like, what?
Like these people aren'ttrustworthy.
And as he was realizing thatthat, he was like, okay, I have
to now think about how I canstill be authentically me but
also not give away the farm withpeople who aren't trustworthy.
(42:58):
Yeah, and it was.
It was a very interesting, um,the very cool process that he
walked through.
It's like finding his limits ofwhat he was willing to share
and what he felt like he neededto keep back.
Yeah, and even to be able toshare his frustration with these
other guys that were, you know,grabbing onto his idea and
(43:21):
twisting it to make it theirs ishow he could stand up for
himself in saying, hey, I don'tthink that's appropriate.
I'm, I am, I was part of that,and I think we need to figure
out a way where we can walkthrough this and where it's
collectively our idea, insteadof you staking, instead of
people staking their claim onthese ideas and owning them
(43:45):
holistically as their own.
And I think that, as I waswatching him now, granted, he is
very psychologically aware,very emotionally in tune, his EQ
is off the charts and he wasable to walk through that of
saying, not accusing, notdemanding, but just standing up
(44:06):
for himself without demeaningthem and I was like that's a
really.
That audience is not safe foryou to be vulnerable, to go, hey
man, that's not cool.
It kind of I'm feeling a littleleft out over here, we.
(44:27):
That is like chum in the waterfor sharks to just take him and
go, oh poor you.
Let's, let's sideline you more,right?
And I do think that you'reright that there are certain
like speakers or are c-suitefolks or you know, whatever the
situation is, where they're,like I can't be.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Well, I cannot be that vulnerable something that I
heard you say and tell me ifI'm thinking about this right,
because I do think this is sucha fascinating that it's a
fascinating idea is thatauthenticity or vulnerability is
not something that audiencesare entitled to.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
That is very well said.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Because I think that that's one of the things that
speakers feel like oh, to beauthentic as a communicator, I
have to be vulnerable, becausethose are so intertwined.
And I love the idea of sayingcertain audiences have earned
the trust to receivevulnerability and that
vulnerability is a gift, butit's not something that
(45:22):
audiences are entitled to inorder for you to be authentic.
And I think that, as acommunicator, that's a really,
really important point tounderstand, because I can be
transparent, I can have a levelof transparency and honesty
without being so vulnerable thatI just give away stuff to folks
(45:43):
who haven't earned the right orearned the trust to actually
receive that info.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I think that's very well said and I think that I
know one speaker who came outand talked about vulnerability
and then her response to thatwas she.
Her description was I have avulnerability hangover.
And I think, yeah, because ittook something from you and I'm
(46:11):
glad she gave the vulnerability,yeah, the vulnerability, and
hopefully the audiences haveearned it over time, but I don't
, I don't think we all have towalk that path.
Yeah, I remember a time where wehad an interaction with
somebody that I thought thisperson isn't safe as a family.
(46:33):
Yeah, this wasn't a familymember, it was an outside person
that we'd met once or twice andwe had bought something from
them.
It was from them, and Iremember thinking we were going
to return what we had purchasedbecause it just it wasn't
working out.
And we all agreed as a familyit wasn't working out and I
thought to myself I don't knowthat this is a safe space and so
(46:57):
I've got to walk my kidsthrough.
How do we, how do I not teachyou or how do I teach you to
have like?
Basically, there's times tocompartmentalize your emotion.
And I remember we were drivingto return the item and they were
crying and we were all sad andI said I pulled over and I said,
(47:18):
hey, listen, guys.
I said is it in?
My kids are, at this point, um,familiar with the fact that I'm
going to ask you randomquestions, that I promise
they're going somewhere?
But I said hey, guys, let meask you something.
I said when you go to school,is it appropriate for you to
wear your bathing suit?
(47:38):
And they're like, no, that'd beweird.
I said okay, if you go to thepool, would it be appropriate
for you to wear your churchclothes?
No, that'd be strange.
I said, okay, is it appropriatefor you to wear your church
clothes in the bath?
No, that'd be weird.
(47:58):
I said, okay, is it appropriatefor you to show up to school
naked?
No, that'd be really weird.
And I said, okay.
I said but is it appropriatefor you to be in the bath naked?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to church in your church
clothes?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to school in your
uniform?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to a school in your
uniform?
Is it appropriate for you toshow up to the pool in your
(48:18):
bathing suit?
I said do you see that?
It's that what you're wearingand the appropriateness of it is
in the context in which youwear it.
They're like, yes, I said wherewe are going is Antarctica.
Zip it put your parka on, Okay,but when you get back into this
(48:40):
car, it is like the bathtub, itis like the shower.
You can let your emotions flow.
You're safe here.
Where we're going is notemotionally a safe place for you
to just give all your emotionsaway.
So I want you to understand thecontext with in which your
emotions are safe andappropriate.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
And that's to me.
You're that, that's I thinkwe're kind of saying similar
things that I don't think thatthe speaker is going to show up
to their presentation in theirBrazilian, you know, speedo.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Totally.
It's not appropriate.
Yeah but if they're on thebeach and they choose to wear
that.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
And so, yes, I do think that there is a context in
which and I think it depends onthe audience and any more most
all things are recorded.
So the context of the audiencespans even further beyond that
that's a great point.
And so I do think it entered.
Recording things does introducea different dynamic of how do I
want to show up, and I believehow we show up to things really
(49:47):
is about the context.
But I have to know me, to knowwhat my context is Totally.
Therefore, you know, it's likeit's like the self-awareness of
like, oh, my shirt's untucked,oh, I forgot to button my pants.
Or even, oh gosh, my fly isdown, right, right.
It's having the context ofknowing like, oh wait, I've got
(50:07):
to show up a little morebuttoned up here.
Oh, I need I can be a littlemore relaxed here.
Yeah, so you had, you said youhad, you had three tips that you
were going to give for thewedding toast.
Let's hear that third one, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
So I think the third one that I would say actually
I'm going to combine two, ifthat's okay.
Of course I know that'scheating a little bit.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I'm okay with you cheating.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
So one is to be creative, right, not kitschy,
but be creative, right, ifthere's a creative way that you
can approach something.
I remember one of my favoriteones I ever saw was a buddy of
mine was giving a toast for hisbrother and his brother was was
a big baseball fan.
(50:51):
And so he said, hey, you knowmy.
So he like hopped up there andsaid, hey, so my brother doesn't
understand a lot of things, um,but he understands baseball.
He's really good like he knowsa lot about baseball.
So I want to give him somemarriage advice based on
baseball, because I think that'swhat's going to really make him
get it.
So, hey, girl, I got you allright, like watch this.
And then he had this just reallyclever, you know description of
(51:15):
all these things that wouldmake his marriage great, using
baseball analogies or baseballterms.
And then I just happened to beat the wedding of him and his
brother gave a best man speechand he said so, my brother
actually doesn't know a lotabout a lot of things he says,
but he understands the craftbrewing experience.
(51:35):
He said so I'm going to givehim some wedding advice or some
marriage advice based on thecraft brewing experience.
And so he essentially took hisbrother's speech, flipped it on
its head and it was just thisreally fun, creative thing and
if you were at both of them youthought that's a really
memorable way to go about it.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
So be creative.
However, the other point that Iwould make this is not a moment
to assassinate someone'scharacter.
This is a moment to build themup and encourage them, and I
pair those together because Ithink that oftentimes, in the
creative process, we end upassassinating someone's
character and we think thatthat's funny, and the reality is
(52:15):
this is not the moment.
This is a moment to highlightthe fact that this is one of the
best human beings I've ever metin my entire life, and if
you're close enough to thisperson to be holding a
microphone, you should have moreammunition than anybody of what
an amazing person.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
This is right.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
And oftentimes folks will hop up there and they'll be
like hey, so I'm going to giveyou five things that you should
know about living with so-and-so.
I've been roommates with Joefor seven years and so, sarah,
you know good luck.
First thing you should knowabout Joe he's super messy.
Point number two he neverwashes dishes and it's like dude
(52:56):
one.
No one cares about that.
This is not the time versussaying hey, so I've.
I've lived with joe for sevenyears.
I know more about living withjoe than anybody on the planet.
So I'm gonna give you seventhings that you should know
about living with joe.
Number one he is the mostthoughtful roommate I've ever
had in my entire life.
Number two he you know, if youcome home at the end of the day,
(53:19):
it doesn't matter what's goingon in Joe's life.
He actually wants to hearwhat's happening in your day,
and I think you're going to findthat to be an absolute delight
at the end of a really long,long day.
Number three right, and you canjust like mix stuff up.
So, so I do do it in a way thatbuilds people up, as opposed to
(53:41):
assassinating their character,because far too many people just
choose that as a moment to ragon their friends, and it's not a
roast.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
I think this is an you bring up an interesting
point, because you talked aboutthe idea of the study with the
junior hires.
I would love, I would love tointerview the best men, the best
, the brides, the maid of honorwhatever.
I would love to interview theperson that steps off of a
speech like that and say wherewere you in that, Like, help me
(54:12):
understand where your psyche waswhen you wrote that speech?
Yeah, Because I I would bet adecent amount of money on the
fact that there was some levelof something going on inside of
that person giving the speechthat prevented them from truly
(54:34):
connecting with the positiveabout what was going on for Joe.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, totally, and I think thatour lack of self-awareness and
I know that that's a buzzword,oh, I'm so self-aware I would
posit that no, you're not.
You're aware of what's aroundyou Right.
That's called environmentallyaware, but you are not aware of
self, because a self awareperson I don't.
(55:00):
I don't believe, if they wereasked to stand instead with
somebody like that, that a selfaware person would truly go
eviscerate the character or themaybe not the character, but
whatever they're not going to goeviscerate a person that they
are that close to, to your point.
And so it's like, really, howare you showing up?
(55:22):
Because how you show up impactseverything, everything in how
you communicate, because Ireally believe that what we're
communicating is why I hatesarcasm.
I love I shouldn't say that Ilove sarcasm.
If sarcasm is not the expenseat the expense of another person
and it's not mocking or chiding.
(55:43):
I hate mocking and chidinghumor.
I don't like it, and itunfortunately tells me a lot
about the person that'sdelivering the humor.
So I'm like dang, where are you?
Why are you so frustrated?
Yeah, what's going on inside ofthat head of yours?
Totally, I'd love to get inthere and tinker around and
understand you better, but Isure don't want to be on the
other end, the receiving end, ofthat stinger.
(56:05):
Totally, I don't like it.
You know what you do, what, whatwe do, what we're talking about
, is far more than giving likeorating, or giving a speech.
(56:26):
We're talking about leaving alegacy, because our words have
impact positive, negative,neutral and your whole career
has been around, been a part of,or been focused around leaving
a positive legacy empoweringpeople, encouraging people,
(56:49):
teaching people and that's whatI feel like my life, my life's
work has been as well, and Ithink what we're both saying is
man, it's time to show upauthentically.
It's time to show up as you notan angry you, not overly
vulnerable you, butauthentically you.
Because the thing that I wantedmy kids to understand about zip
(57:12):
it like we're in Antarctica isyou can be authentic in your uh,
arctic coat, right, your parka,your parka.
You can be an authentic personin a parka, but you don't want
to be vulnerable to everything?
Yeah, but it's like man, can wecreate a space where people are
(57:33):
more willing and thoughtfulabout who they are?
Right?
I think it's a huge call outthere.
Yeah, so, man, thanks forpopping in here and having this
great conversation.
I love it.
I always love talking to you.
Same here.
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