Unlocking You and Your Relationships: A Deep Dive into the Enneagram

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Unlock the secrets to your true potential with the profound wisdom of Enneagram experts Jeddy Bowen and Dayna Corley. Promising a journey of self-discovery, our conversation on Restoration Beyond the Couch reveals how understanding the Enneagram can transform both personal and professional lives. With insights from modern psychology and ancient spirituality, this episode promises to shift your perspective on personality, character, and how we relate to the world.

Jeddy and Dayna guide us through the Enneagram's nine distinct personality types, each with unique motivations and challenges. From the Perfectionists and Helpers to the Individualists and Investigators, we examine how our early life experiences shape these types. The discussion also highlights the duality between our authentic and adapted selves, enlightening listeners on the journey to genuine spiritual growth. Their discussion is enriched by the fascinating work of Dr. Jerome Lubbe, who bridges the Enneagram with neuroscience, offering a contemporary twist to this ancient wisdom.

As we explore the intricacies of each Enneagram type, the episode underscores the transformative power of self-awareness and empathy. By understanding not just our own type but also those around us, we can enhance communication and compassion in all our relationships. Whether in a family or team setting, the Enneagram serves as a dynamic tool for fostering deeper connections and adaptability. Embrace the path to your most authentic self and discover how to nurture profound connections with others through the enriching insights shared in this episode.

Check out Dayna and Jeddy at: https://www.telosfw.com
Enneagram Assessment: https://assessment.yourenneagramcoach.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Restoration Beyond the Couch,
hosted by Dr Lee Long.
In this episode, dr Longinterviews Jetty and Dana, a
dynamic duo of Enneagram expertswho work together to bring
transformation to both personaland professional lives.
Jetty, a therapist specializingin personal growth and healing,
and Dana, who works withorganizations and businesses,

(00:23):
combine their expertise to helpindividuals and teams foster
deeper connections andself-awareness.
Together, they provide apowerful perspective on how the
Enneagram can unlock personaland professional transformation.
Join us as we dive into theirjourney and explore the profound
impact the Enneagram has onrelationships, work environments

(00:45):
and personal development.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
Welcome Dana Corley and Jetty Bowen to, honestly,
two of my most favorite peoplehere to talk about a subject the
Enneagram.
I think people it's so funnybecause I feel like when we talk
about the Enneagram it's askosh bit polarizing, because
people are like, oh, thosenumbers and all that.
But then other people are liketotally bought in, they totally

(01:11):
sink into it and they have somuch fun with it.
And then they say, oh well,that's so one of you.
Or oh my gosh, that's youreight popping out and it's like
this creates this littlelanguage, right?
Oh yeah, it's a wholesubculture, a whole subculture,
and that's what we're going toexplore today.
So thank you so much for beinghere.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
Yeah, I'm excited.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
So how would you all, how would you give us an
overview and I know this is abig question, but how would you
all give us?

Speaker 4 (01:44):
an.
What would your overview of theEnneagram be?
Well, in its most simple form,the Enneagram is a tool
utilizing both modern psychologyand spirituality ancient
spirituality to really discoverwho we really are and in all of

(02:04):
our glory.
We have two selves a false selfand a true self, or an
authentic self and an adaptedself.
And, at its basic core, theEnneagram has been able to
identify nine distinctpersonalities that all of us
will fall into one of those, andthere's a lot of crossover on

(02:28):
how we manifest that personality, so it can be challenging to
discover which type you actuallyfall into, but there's.
It's just a tool for personalself-discovery and, hopefully,
growth.

Speaker 5 (02:48):
Love that.
Yeah, yeah, I would echo thatand just say it's a tool for
transformation.
It's really.
It helps to put language to thebox that you've been living in
and it's an invitation to stepout of that.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, I love the way you guys are characterizing this
, because it is ancient.
I mean, how far back does it go?
Like several thousand years,correct?

Speaker 4 (03:09):
Yeah, I mean it's theorizing, putting historical
things together, but as far backfor sure as the desert fathers
and mothers, and then itutilizes things out of sort of
the mystics of multiplereligions, multiple faiths, the

(03:30):
Sufis of the Kabbalah, of theBible, and just utilizing the
traits that are similar in thosemystic books.
And a lot of it has been passeddown orally and then put
together in the last century bya few guys that kind of put it

(03:55):
on paper and then startedrefining it more with modern
psychology.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Now, to your knowledge, has there been any
research like like, have have wehad any studies or anything
using the Enneagram?
Do you all know?

Speaker 4 (04:15):
Well, using the Enneagram.
Can you expand on that?

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah.
Has anybody utilized theEnneagram and studied it in a in
a, a um in a?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
Well, there are a lot of psychologists that use it,
um, a lot of guys that are thatare, you know, teaching on
emotional health?
Um, and our emotional quotientwill often utilize the Enneagram
in becoming more aware of whowe are that way.
There is one person inparticular currently, dr Jerome

(04:53):
Love, who has an organizationcalled the Brain-Based Enneagram
, and his work is fascinatingbecause he really is a scientist
as well as a psychologist.
Nice is a scientist as well asa psychologist, nice, um, I have
read his book and utilized someof his stuff, but I'm not

(05:16):
proficient at it to be able tospeak at length about but, he.
He incorporates the way ourbrains work and the different
parts of our brain, and how theytie in with the different
personality styles.
Nice.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
Nice, looking at the neurochemistry and all that good
stuff that's nice.
That's nice.
So it's a tool to discoveryourself, Would you say.
Because here's my take on theEnneagram is that it is a it's.

(05:59):
First of all, I found it to bethe most usable for my own
personal sense, the most usabletool that gave me insight into
why is it that I'm so driven byfun and I discipline is so
difficult for me, but I found aworkaround that, if I could look
at something as an enjoyablething, like running, People used
to say to me you are such adisciplined person to get up so
early all the time.
And I'm thinking to myselfthat's not discipline.
I so enjoy the people that Irun with that if I know they're

(06:21):
going to be there, that we'regoing to have these great
conversations and I don't wantto miss out on that.
So there's so're going to bethere, that we're going to have
these great conversations, and Idon't want to miss out on that.
So there's so much fun to behad and I use that as my
workaround, if you will, tocreate a sense of disciplined
outcomes.
But the process was all aboutfun and that's how I found my
workaround and I think that forothers, if it's utilized, I'm

(06:45):
guessing that you guys feel thesame way, that if you utilize
this, it it works for otherpeople as well, in the way that
they're maybe bent orpredetermined in their sense of
who they are.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
Absolutely and in in your example we could actually
unpack a lot more in there butwe won't because you didn't ask
that question Unpack away.
Well, as a seven, you do wantfun, you do want adventure.
But why do you want that?
And the Enneagram will getbehind, not what we do, but why

(07:18):
we do it Right.
Why do you want that fun?
And for a seven, sevens want toavoid pain.
So there's something drivingour personalities that is, we
want to avoid something and wewant to get our basic needs met.
And also, the cool thing aboutthe Enneagram is there.

(07:39):
It's a dynamic system.
Nobody's stuck in one place.
We may all have a type that weidentify with because of what
the motive of that type is, butwe move around that Enneagram
diagram and we connect to othertypes and we can actually

(08:01):
connect to every type and havesome of every type within us.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (08:19):
Yeah, person who's most concerned about getting
their basic needs met andprotecting themselves and what
they think they need.
And we have the social person,who's more about connecting with
other people and being part ofthe group and moving the group

(08:41):
forward and having their role inthat group space.
And then there is theone-on-one, which is also
referred to as the sexual.
That's more about the couplingwith that one other person and
really connecting deeply.
Well, you, as a seven, are alsoa social seven, so when you
want to run, it's the connectionwith others that's driven by

(09:04):
your social also.
So there's several things goingon when you make that choice.
And the discipline part isthere for you too, because, as a
seven, you also go to the onespace which is an
extraordinarily disciplinedperson, right, so you've got a
lot going on, but it's sofascinating.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
It is so fascinating going on, but it's so
fascinating, it is sofascinating and I'd love for you
to give our listeners a littlepeek behind what a seven, what a
one or any other type that youwant to highlight.
But that's the part that to me,was so freeing, so helpful is
that I would take differentpersonality tests because in our
, in our field, especially goingthrough our programs test,

(09:46):
because in our, in our field,especially going through our
programs, we had to take a lotof personality inventories and I
would always.
I had one mentor look at me andsaid you broke the test,
because he said you have all ofthese sanguine qualities.
But then you have thismelancholic quality and he's
like I think you broke the testand I was like, well gosh, I
didn't mean to break the test.
And when I understood theEnneagram better I was like I

(10:09):
didn't break the test.
It's pointing to the twodifferent places that I think I
was under a lot of stress andpressure when I took that
inventory and what it wasshowing that in stress I go to a
sense of perfectionism tomyself and so that's that
melancholic piece is that, youknow, it's that enthusiastic or

(10:31):
that sanguine piece is that at,I guess at my baseline I would
say, is what I where I would go,but in stress it's there and
that's where it doesn't.
The personality inventoriesdon't always pick that up.

Speaker 5 (10:45):
Yes, and something that we mentioned also is is
what makes the Enneagram sounique from other personality
assessments is a lot of timesthese personality assessments,
there's a lot of emphasis onbehavior and what we're seeing
right.
Whereas the Enneagram is reallygiving language.
It's kind of like lifting thethe the lid a little bit and
looking below the surface ofwhat's actually driving and

(11:05):
motivating the behavior.
What are my core beliefs, whatare those core fears that are
moving me towards thesebehaviors?
And that's what I would saymakes it so unique and so
helpful and provide thisopportunity or invitation for
transformation.
And you mentioned kind of thisworkaround, right, Like when I
understand that I can, I canstart to kind of move to shift

(11:29):
out of that.
But I think, on the flip side,the other thing that's beautiful
about it is it also thatawareness of what's below the
surface really can increase ourcompassion for not only
ourselves but for those aroundus.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
You know.
That's so.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, with allexclamation points behind it.
The thing that sold me on theEnneagram I was already sold
before, but the thing thatsolidified it to me at its core,
or to my core, was I had astruggle in a relationship with
a very close person and once Iunderstood their Enneagram

(12:07):
number, all of a sudden for me,I was like, oh, now I understand
where you're coming from, andall of the hurt, all of the pain
in our interactions justdisappeared.
I had an.
I had a better understandingthat, yes, their impact on me

(12:28):
may have been painful, but theirintent was certainly more
illuminated.
Therefore, I could have a wholelot more space and grace for
the impact.

Speaker 5 (12:39):
Yeah, it doesn't feel so personal.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Correct yes Cause, it wasn't about me.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
And the reality is, we all live out of our ego or
our false self.
If we don't realize thatthere's something deeper and
that false self is designed toprotect us and to promote us,
and if we don't, like Jenny said, pull back the lid undo the

(13:06):
veil to look deeper inside ofwhat's really going on in our
hearts, we will continue to livein the subconscious, automated
program that's been running ourentire lives, and so change
doesn't occur without an honestevaluation of what's really

(13:29):
going on inside.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Right.

Speaker 5 (13:32):
An honest yet nonjudgmental evaluation.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
That's so important.

Speaker 5 (13:36):
Because what you're describing is this adapted
version of us, which all of ustake on a personality.
It's this adapted version andit's simply just our means for
survival, like we're justsurviving, we're just learning
to, to function.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Right.

Speaker 5 (13:51):
And so I think that piece is so important is when we
are evaluating and we're reallytaking a deeper look at
ourselves.
We have to be willing to let goof the judgment and give
ourselves the grace that I'm.
I really am doing the best.
I know how to do Right, yep.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
This promotes curiosity versus that sense of
certainty, which certainty, Ibelieve, often leads to judgment
.
I'm certain it's this, but wait, are you?
And I think about what you'retalking about, with that false
self, that ego, that adaptiveself.
We have a term in our fieldperceptual understanding.

(14:29):
And okay, we all know whatperception is.
Well, that was my perception ofit.
We hear that was my truth, thatwas my reality.
But in our field I don't knowthat we all give as much
credence to the understandingthat that perception is a lens
that we look at the worldthrough.
That lens is built onexperiences from the past.

(14:51):
It's built on presentexperience, but it's built on
how we ingested the world.
And I think about the termproprioception, which is a
physical term and that's howdoes my body move through, how
does my body navigate gravityRight?
To me, proprioception is thephysical, where perceptual

(15:13):
perception or perceptualunderstanding is the
metaphysical, because it's howdo I move through life with an
understanding of my lens Right?
And do I ever take my lensesoff and try to clean them a
little bit to see that maybe mylens is not the factual truth,

(15:35):
it's my understanding of it?
I'm not saying that therearen't absolutes there.
Let me make this very clearthere are absolutes, there are
Mm-hmm, but then there's myperceptual understanding of the
absolute.
Exactly and how often do wenavigate through those right?

Speaker 4 (15:52):
And it has been interesting because there have
been studies done usingEnneagram where you take a set
of twins that were raised in thesame environment and they're
very different personalities andthey perceived their
experiences, their traumasdifferently because of the lens,
and that's why I think that ourpersonalities are part of our

(16:14):
soul DNA.
It is obviously a combinationof nature versus nurture, but I
think that it is innate in howwe look at the world and in the
Enneagram world.
It's a disconnection fromwhat's true about our being.
It's a disconnection fromactually what God imprinted on

(16:36):
us.
Wow, one of the things in theEnneagram we love is to talk
about.
Personality is actually a mask.
The Latin word for personalitycomes from the word mask, and so
our personalities are a maskthat we put on and we move
through the world with this maskbecause we want other people to
see what we want them to see,or we want to believe that the
mask we're wearing is who wereally are.

(16:58):
But the word character comesfrom the word being engraved,
and character, in our opinion,is the divine engraving, the
divine imprint of the Imago Dei.
That's the true self, that'sthe essence of who we are.
But we disconnect from that inorder to protect and promote

(17:19):
ourselves in the world, becausewe don't have a manual and all
of the first seven years of lifeis just programming.
We're taking information in butwe don't have the maturity to
know how to process that intruth, and so it's a distortion
through our lens and thatbecomes the basis for the

(17:44):
personality, and so we developcoping strategies and defense
mechanisms for that promotionand protection Right, and they
become more ingrained, moreingrained with our experiences,
with our hurts, with our traumas, with our unhealed pain, and we
don't realize the interiorinfrastructure that is being

(18:06):
built and solidified, and that'swhat we live out of, and
without the work, that's what welive out of, and without the
work, that's what we continue tolive out of right which offers
as a therapist right.
It offers us so much, I guess,fertile ground to to help people

(18:28):
walk through healing from whatyou're describing and the beauty
is the language is there in theprogram, so it's a helpful tool
, right, it's not just pullingout of thin air, it's really
being able to to, to narrow downand have people relate to.
Once they read it, they mightnot have been able to come up

(18:52):
with the language themselves,but this gives them the ability
to go oh my gosh.
I identify with that.
That feels so true to me and Idon't want to be that way
necessarily.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Right.
I've always said it wasinteresting that the, the, the
questionnaires.
People will say, well, I didthe questionnaire and I came out
this and you're thinking?
I've interacted with you enoughto know.
I don't know that that'saccurate, because what is the?
What is the stat that it's?

Speaker 5 (19:19):
the test are about 70% accurate.
So, that's tricky, right, socause, you're right.
A lot of people are like, well,I did the free online test and
I'm always like Ooh, because wealso in in the Enneagram world
like I can't tell someone, eveneven if I know them intimately,
I cannot tell someone whatmotivates them.
Right, and so it's.
It is a journey ofself-discovery that we've talked
about, but just simply takingthe test is not always going to

(19:43):
be accurate, because, whether welike it or not, we're answering
the way we want to believe thatwe are or how we want to be
perceived.
Another thing, too, is when youtake the test, it's recommended
to think back on your kind ofearly adulthood years, like
early 20s, where you don't haveas much stress and

(20:03):
responsibility, right, right,and so you're probably more
aware of yourself, but also morereally living out of that, that
kind of core space.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
You haven't had to adapt as much.

Speaker 5 (20:16):
Yes, yeah, um so we kind of like to say, yes, take a
test, but read your top, yourtop few and see if one of those
like study those a little bitand see if one resonates with
you.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Again, that's a.
That is what is so to me.
What is what's intriguing aboutthe Enneagram is that it is a.
It is a point to discoverbecause there is so much
complexity and this is some ofthe criticism I hear is there's
so much complexity, am I a one,am I a two?
A three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.
And then you have wings.

(20:48):
So okay, are you a seven, sixwing?
Are you a seven, eight wing?
Oh, I was winging on my sixthere, oh, I was winging on my
eight there.
And then you say okay, but I'min stress, so I go to a one in
stress.
And then, oh, but I was happy,so I was going to a five, and
it's.
And then are youself-preserving, right?
Are you social?
Are you one-on-one?

(21:09):
What's your?

Speaker 4 (21:09):
level of health when you travel Right it is very
complex, which it's really funfor those who like to geek out
on that Right, but for those itcan be overwhelming to think
about all that too.
And the reality is you arealways a unique individual,
created in the image of God, nomatter what type you might

(21:30):
identify with.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yes, which is that's part of the discovery process.
Right, it's because how do weshow up in the world?
How do we show up in the worldand are we aware of our impact?
Are we curious of how we showup in the world?
And I think this can be a largewormhole that sends you into a
whole new galaxy of trying tofigure out how you show up in

(21:53):
the world.
So could you give our listenersa little background on you?
We've said seven, we've saidone, six.
What would you mind giving us abackground on what, like what,
the numbers are and sure?

Speaker 5 (22:06):
Do you want like an overview of each number?

Speaker 3 (22:08):
Sure, that'd be great .

Speaker 5 (22:09):
Okay, what do I want to start with?
I'd go ahead and start withones.
Okay, you want to start?
Okay.
So ones are they're known asthe perfectionist.
Ones kind of see what's missing, what's broken, and they have
the solution and they know, theyknow how to fix it, and so

(22:33):
oftentimes they can come across.
The impact might be that peoplepeople receive them as critical
but in their mind they'rereally just helping because they
have the solution, right, andso they can be.
They tend to be very black andwhite people and ones what?
What sets them apart is a onehas this voice in their head
that is their inner critic andit has been with them probably
for as long as they can remember, right, and many ones.
When you say to them, you know,not everybody has that they're

(22:55):
shocked because it's so familiarto them this, this voice that
is constantly criticizing andand perfecting and correcting,
um, yeah, am I missing anythingyou want to add?

Speaker 4 (23:08):
no, I don't know how deep you want us to go.
Because, their most familiaremotion would be anger, and it's
more of an anger that thingsaren't the way they should be,
because they have an ideal imageof what the world should be
like, and so they live trying toperfect that and bring that
about.
And not everybody has that, andso there's this inner anger

(23:31):
that you don't see what they see.
And why aren't you helping tomake this world a better place
or this person a better person?

Speaker 3 (23:39):
Right, and the beauty of the one is that they truly
do have a sense of somethingthat they're aiming for.

Speaker 4 (23:48):
They do.
We kind of like to call it asuperpower.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
They really do have an innate sense of how to make
things better, honestly, but allof us, all of us tend to
over-identify with thepersonality and lose ourselves
in that Right and loseperspective because of that.

Speaker 5 (24:07):
Right right and for the one, their core motivation
is to be good.
They don't want to be a goodperson, and so their gift is
discernment.
They really do have the gift ofdiscernment and are able to
very quickly kind of discernwhat is right, what is wrong,
what is good, bad yeah, and theyfear being bad.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
Sure.

Speaker 4 (24:27):
So they're very hard on themselves and tend to be
hard on others because of that.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
We're trying to perfect there Exactly.

Speaker 4 (24:35):
They want the best for you, right.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah, right, and it's really.
I do think that there's a areal pure for lack of a better
word motivation there, so okay,so there's the one, now the two
two, two's there, so okay, sothere's the one now the two, two
, twos um.
I'm assuming we're going inorder.

Speaker 4 (24:53):
Yes, okay yes, uh, twos have a need to be needed.
They're called the helper, um.
Each number has a little namefor it and there's multiple
names for it, but that's the twoand they want desperately to be
liked um, and so they go out oftheir way to try to meet the
needs of others and they kind ofhave a superpower of what

(25:17):
others' needs are, and sothey're very attuned to that.
But they're not very attuned totheir own needs, and so they're
not good at identifying whattheir own needs.
But deep inside they want youto know what their needs are,
because they know what yourneeds are, and they want you to
meet their needs.
But they will never ask you tomeet their needs.

(25:37):
So resentment can kind of buildup in the twos, but they spend
their lives trying to take careof others and have a just real
sensitivity towards others andknowing they could walk into a
room where there's a conferencebeing held and be sensitive to

(25:58):
oh, is that?
Is the temperature right inthis room for everybody?
Is the light right?
I want to make it right foreverybody.
And they're lovely people,they're very warm and they look
towards others before they kindof react to things or respond to
things.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
So it's an external orientation where it seems like
a I guess a one.
Is that the one actually?

Speaker 4 (26:22):
looks towards others also.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yeah, there's that.

Speaker 4 (26:24):
We could get into a word for this, but we're going
to keep it simple and not gothere, but I want the word now.
It's their stance, theirdependent stance, and our stance
is basically our posture, thatwe move through the world in how
we sort of react to things, andthe two's posture is always
looking towards others.

(26:44):
They want to get the feedbackfrom others and again, this is
subconscious Most of our living,our most of our living, 95 of
our living, is autopilot rightso it's comes in, coming out of
the subconscious, uh part of us.
So that's what twos do, uh, theywant to make sure every
everybody's okay so ones andtwos are both in the dependent

(27:05):
stance.

Speaker 5 (27:05):
Just to clarify yeah sure yeah, yeah, do we cover
twos?

Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (27:10):
Threes.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
Go for it Uh.

Speaker 5 (27:12):
Three.
The word for three is theachiever, performer, um.
Threes are um.
They are also in what we callthe image triad, so they're very
aware of how other peopleexperience them and so they.
They don't necessarily movetowards others the way that the
twos or the ones might, butthey're very in tune with.

(27:32):
Okay, when I step into thisspace, what's expected of me?
What do other people perceiveas successful?
And they're able to kind ofmeet that expectation.
Threes highly value efficiency.
They're typically veryhardworking and very focused on
productivity.
For a three, they equateadmiration with love.

(27:54):
They deeply want to be admired.
Um, and they are not in thedependent stance here, the
aggressive or, what I like tosay, assertive stance right,
Because aggressive has a littlebit of negative connotation.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Right which?

Speaker 5 (28:07):
really what that means is people in the
aggressive, assertive stance.
They are willing to moveagainst others in order to get
what they want right.
So they've kind of got theireye on the prize or on the goal
and they'll kind of do what ittakes to get there.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
So when you think about a three who's
achievement-oriented eye on theprize, the one who is perfection
oriented, Can you delineate alittle bit of that?
That's a good question.

Speaker 5 (28:34):
Um, because actually they're the subtype of the three
, which is a self-preservingthree, looks a lot like a one,
and so that's a really goodquestion and clarifying question
.
Um, one thing is that, uh,while threes highly value
efficiency, they, they, they'reokay to cut corners as long as
they get the job done and itlooks good enough.
Got it Because they want to geta lot of jobs done right,

(28:56):
whereas the one really valuesbeing thorough and doing it
precisely and perfectly right.
They will dot their I's andcross their T's and take time
doing it, and the three doesn'tquite have that inner critic
voice.
They're more focused on again,like how am I being experienced
by those around me and how can Iset myself up to be admired,

(29:21):
whereas the one has this innatesense of what is right and what
is moral and they will stickwith that kind of regardless of
the environment, right.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Okay, that makes sense, no that's good.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
Ones are going for goodness.
Threes are going for admiration.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (29:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Okay, makes sense.

Speaker 5 (29:44):
Four, fours.
I'll let you do fours.

Speaker 4 (29:46):
Fours are the people that desire to be unique and
they are very connected to theirhearts.
They're also in the image triad, so the twos, threes and fours
are in the image triad, which ismost concerned with connections
and relationships.
Those three numbers and we callthat the heart triad also, okay

(30:09):
and fours just have a need tobe special, a need to stand out
and to be separate for theiruniqueness, and they have a
great deal of empathy, like asuperpower of empathy, okay.
And they also have this hugerange of emotions, and so the

(30:33):
fours can often feel deeplysaddened in one moment and 10
minutes later be elated oversomething.
Fours are the person you wantto sit with you in your pain and
sorrow, because they will sitwith you in that, whereas other
numbers are ready to go okayenough let's go

(30:53):
um force can usually sit a longtime in that and they can sit a
long time in their own.
They want to deeply feel thatto them is a source of life
where other types want to avoidfeeling certain feelings or the
depth of emotions because it'sdisruptive.
For fours it feels like they'reliving, no matter how good or

(31:18):
bad that emotion is.
Fours have this innatesuperpower of bringing beauty to
the world.
They tend to be very creative,the world.
They tend to be very creative,Very often people in the arts of
any kind, whether it's music orperforming or textiles,

(31:39):
whatever it is.
They just have this real giftof creativity and so the world
is a better place because ofthat.
And they have this ideal worldof everybody being special and
unique and getting along.
And they can be superchallenging because they're

(32:03):
probably the most misunderstood.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Interesting.

Speaker 5 (32:07):
And at their core they believe that there's
something innately missing inthem that everybody else has,
yeah, and so for them.
They oftentimes really strugglewith envy.

Speaker 4 (32:17):
And I'm glad you brought that up, that is true.
So that feeling inside of themof something's lacking is always
there.
Okay, so there's a lot of ofunconscious comparison going on
with the four and they don'tever measure up.

(32:38):
So part of their uniqueness,part of their way of being, is
trying to prove that they dohave something to bring to the
table.
Wow, yeah, yeah.
So any questions on the four?

Speaker 3 (32:52):
No, I love, I love how you all are putting this out
.
There is that, there's this,there's this bottom line
Humanity is beautiful.
Now I understand, when weoperate out of our as y'all are
saying our false self, ouradoptive self, that we can be
painful to other people, but theuniqueness of each type of

(33:12):
person is just so beautiful toobserve and to think about.
Okay, moving toward this typeof individual, this is what
would be so helpful for me tooffer to connect, not that I
need to change me, I just needto understand them.
And it's knowing, it's giving,maybe, parameters, not not to

(33:37):
sound confining, but it's givingparameters to how people may
show up for you or with you, andknowing how to be curious in
that.
So this is, to me, this.
That's what I love about theEnneagram is learning those
parameters of this is how theymay show up and it's unique to
them, which is beautiful becausethen we can explore it.

Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yes, so we move to the five which is the, the five
is the investigator or observer.
I was thinking you were goingto say explorer because of what
I said.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, the explorer with theexplorer.
I'm just kidding um fives are.

Speaker 5 (34:15):
We talked about stances a minute ago and fours
and fives are both in what'scalled the withdrawing stance,
so they go inward.
Um, fives really live in theirhead.
They're in the head triad uh,which means they.
A familiar emotion to them isanxiety or worry, um, but for a
five, the kind of this conceptthat knowledge is power is sort
of what drives them.

(34:35):
They accumulate and um uh,gather as much information as
they can Um, and that uh thathelps them to feel competent,
which is one of their top values, is competency.
Um, fives also have, uh, a lotof fives that I've talked to.
It's almost like they have thisvisual of a battery or or a

(34:57):
tank of gas and they start theday like this and they're
watching it start to go down andthey've kind of got to be back
in their safe space beforethey're they're out of juice, um
, and so they're, they're out ofjuice, and so they're very
aware of and focused onpreserving their energy, which
means that they oftentimesaren't the quickest to willingly

(35:19):
share, whether it's knowledgeor insight.
Fives are oftentimes the wiseston the Enneagram, but they're
not quick to share that insightand wisdom Because, again,
they're so focused on preservingtheir capacity and their energy
.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
So would a self-preserving five look
different than a more preservingthan a five?
Yes, and a social five wouldstill be looking at that gas
gauge, so to speak, but theywould be a little more willing
to connect.
While there's a the, theone-on-one five, that's really

(35:56):
linked together with that oneperson, but they're still
watching that as if they wereself-preserving.
I bet that's an interestingsubtype to uncover and discover
with a five.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
Cause the fives, you know they they hoard their
resources because of that falsebelief that they won't have
enough to get through the day.
So they're constantly measuringwhat they can give and what
they need to just hold on to.
And, like Jenny said, theirhead is their castle, it's their

(36:27):
favorite place to be and theycan be super creative fives and
creating in there.
Many of our really brilliantpeople are fives and they spend
so much time in their head, youknow, coming up with ideas, huge
solutions to the world'sproblems, and so it is

(36:50):
interesting.
But the fives, also because ofthat, they are the most
emotionally detached of all thetypes.
They value their informationmore than they value emotional
connections often, and so yousee them really withdrawing and

(37:11):
holding on to that, because thatinformation, that proficiency
of what they own, is everythingto them and they are willing to
share it if you're willing tolisten.
But if they share it and youreally aren't paying attention,

(37:31):
they're like a turtle, they'llgo back into their shell and
they're not ever going to sharethat again.
So they risked it one time.
If it's well received, that'sreally good, but if not, it's
backed off Wow.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (37:45):
Okay, you can imagine a five with a four wing or a
four with a five wing has a lotof internal.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yeah, there's a lot of.
There's the opportunity for alot of internal turmoil, but
there's also an opportunity tobe tapped in to.
I mean, like you could takeover the world.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
Yeah, a five with a four, I think, is a real gift,
because it does have thatemotional connection there when
the five with the six, they'reboth in their heads all the time
, Gotcha.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
So moving to the six.

Speaker 4 (38:15):
Moving to the six.

Speaker 5 (38:16):
Do you want to do six or me?
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Oh, you do sevens, I'll do six.
So five, sixes and sevens,where the twos, threes and fours
were all in the emotional heart, most concerned with
relationships and connections,the fives, sixes and sevens are
in what we call the head triad,or the intellectual side.
They are always in their headsso they think their way through

(38:42):
life.
They don't feel their waythrough life.
They think their way throughlife.
They don't feel their waythrough life, they think their
way through life.
And so for the sixes.
The sixes are constantlythinking, but what they want
most, which all of the ones inthis head triad want, certainty
and security.
That's what the head space isgoing for.
The sixes, especially, aregoing for security and certainty

(39:06):
.
And the sixes are in thedependent stance, so they're
looking towards others.
They want the world to be asafe place.
And so if you're a type six,you often, if you go into a
restaurant, you're going to sitwhere you can see the door.
You want to know where theexits are.
You want to know what you haveto do to get out of there if
something goes down.

(39:26):
I mean, that's sort of anextreme example, but it's not
uncommon right so sixes arekeenly aware of how secure they
are in the world and they'reconcerned with everybody's
security.
So they tend to be verycommunal in their concern and
putting things in place thatbenefit all of the group.

(39:48):
They're in the society they'rea part of, whatever it is right?
um, because sixes are always intheir head.
They have a high level ofanxiety, a high level of worry,
and so their wheels are alwaysspinning in their head, but
they're never really at rest orat peace because they are
constantly thinking of worstcase scenarios that, well, this

(40:13):
might happen.
Well, if that doesn't happen,this could happen.
And if that doesn't happen,well, this could happen.
So they're creating plans allthe time plan A, plan B, plan C,
plan D to cover their bases ifsomething goes wrong.
Plan B, plan C, plan D to covertheir bases if something goes
wrong.
But they spend so much of theirenergy concerned with what
might happen they're notliberated to live in the now.

(40:37):
Right.
And what is good and true aboutnow.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
And what's so fascinating about what you're
describing to me is, I thinkabout you know, when I was
trying to type myself thinkingwell, but I identify with that I
.
I walk in and I look at therestaurant and I'm like what's
the best view that I can have inthis restaurant to see
everything.
And you think, oh gosh, okay,well then maybe I'm a six.

(41:02):
And then I think, well, wait,what's the motivation for that?
The motivation in my mind isnot so that am I safe?
The motivation in my mind is Iwant to see everything.

Speaker 4 (41:13):
I want to experience everything and I might see
somebody.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
I know and I want to say hi.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
But there's also that space of I am always thinking
and planning, but it's not theworst case scenario, it's for
best case scenario.
It's for best case scenario,it's how to maximize things, and
so I think that that's what Ilove about the Enneagram is that
it truly is about motivation,and that's why the test, those

(41:41):
online quizzes, are probably notas accurate, because are we
being prompted in each question?
What's your motivation behindthis?

Speaker 5 (41:52):
And how many of us are aware of our motivations?
Right, and so we usually right,because we don't know that
again, that's that perceptualunderstanding of ourselves.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
Are we aware of that?
No, not always.
Well, I would say very rarelyare we aware?
I think we in this field have aan advantage.
Well, it would say very rarelyare we aware.
I think we in this field havean advantage.
Well, it could be an advantageif we utilize it to really think
through.
Wait, what is it?
Why is it that I do this?
Yes, not to beat ourselves todeath with that Right, but it
truly is to discover, curiouslyRight To discover yourself and

(42:23):
those around you, right, okay,so the sixes are plagued with a
lot of self-doubt.
Right.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
And so where the ones have the critic in their head,
the sixes tend to have acommittee in their head.
Right.
And so they don't trustthemselves.
And so in their mind, they'llgo around to different people in
mind, they'll also physicallygo to different people to check
out things before they make adecision for themselves, because
they just simply don't trustthat inner voice of assuring

(42:54):
them that, yes, they can go forit, they can do it.
So the sixes have to reallydraw up a lot of courage to move
through the world and get whatthey want what a beautiful thing
to observe in a six and tocelebrate with them and and
superpower of the six is they.

Speaker 5 (43:13):
They are incredibly loyal people, like incredibly,
and like my sixes that are or,I'm sorry, my friends that are
sixes.
Those are the ones that Iprobably am in touch with the
most because they make theeffort to reach out.
Um, so they're really goodfriends.
And the other, the other beautythat they bring, I would say,

(43:35):
is that they're oftentimes theyare prepared for things right, I
love being on a play date withanother mom who's a six, cause
she's got an extra bandaid,she's got extra snacks, like she
is ready.

Speaker 3 (43:44):
She's got the Mary Poppins bag bag I'm like thank
you you know, so I do I justthink it's so important.

Speaker 5 (43:50):
It's easy to look at.
You know the the pitfalls orthe downside of each type and
but, like you said earlier,every single type brings a
unique beauty to the world.
I think that's so important tohighlight.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, on to the seven seven.

Speaker 5 (44:06):
do you want to talk about seven?

Speaker 3 (44:08):
No, no, I would love to hear y'all's take on this.

Speaker 5 (44:11):
Um, okay, so sevens are like we've mentioned.
They're pain avoiders, um, andhow that manifests is they're
they're looking at all theiroptions again in their head and,
like you said, they're notnecessarily scanning worst case
scenario.
They're looking at all theoptions.
Right, sevens want options.
There's this fear of beingtrapped, and because if they get

(44:32):
trapped, they might get stuckin pain, and that is their worst
fear.
And so they're always creatingoptions.
We kind of joke.
The sevens are the ones who youknow.
They want one of everything onthe menu.
We just want to try it all youknow they tend to be adventurers
, tend to be life of the partypeople.
Um, there's something that isvery magnetic about a sevens

(44:53):
personality.
People are drawn to them.
Um, they do enjoy having fun,they're up for an adventure.
They tend to be, yes, people,and so they're really fun to
have around, for sure, um, butagain, what's the motivation?
Right?
A lot of times it's creatingthe options and bringing the
energy, so as not to have toconnect with the pain that is.

(45:15):
That is an inevitable part oflife, right?
Um, I'm trying to think of whatelse about sevens are so much.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
Yeah, sevens are very charismatic.
Like you said, they reallyendear people to them.
They have a high, high, highamount of energy.
They tend to go, go, go, andwhen we say they're pain
avoiders, it can also be justnegativity.
You know, anything that kind oflowers their own energetic

(45:45):
level.
They want to avoid that if theycan, and they will sometimes be
non-committal because if theycommit to something that feels
like they're trapped and lockedin and that means if something
better comes along, they can'tdo it.

(46:07):
So they would rather, if youask them to do something,
they'll say instead of oh, yes,put it on my calendar.
Good to go.
They'll often say that soundsreally great.
Yeah, check back with me onthat.
I think that would be reallyfun.

Speaker 5 (46:19):
Well unhealthy seven would say that.
I think unhealthy sevens wouldsay yes in the moment because it
sounds fun but if somethingbetter comes along, they have no
problem and the thing about itis, is sevens don't take things
as personally.

Speaker 4 (46:39):
So if they better deal, yeah, they don't think
that's a big deal, because ifsomebody did that to them they
wouldn't mind so much.
They kind of get it, but forthose that don't get it, it can
feel very personal yeah.

Speaker 5 (46:52):
Well and they're not taking things personally to that
point they are one of theirgifts is they can reframe things
immediately, right?
So they're.
They're kind of the eternaloptimist until they're not.
But they, because they're sooptimistic and wanting to see
the good and experience the good, they are so quick to reframe

(47:13):
anything, anything that may beperceived as negative.
They can very quickly spin itand make it seem fine, or even
good or positive.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
So they're one of the idealist types that wants an
ideal world that's free of pain,and they see the silver lining
in every cloud.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
yeah, that makes a lot of sense and thank goodness
for sevens.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
It makes the world of much more fun and adventurous,
that is true, they tend to beimpulsive too.
That's something yes, they do,because they they think and then
act.
They're pretty disconnectedfrom their feelings and they
also think if one is good, then10 is better.

Speaker 5 (47:49):
Yes, More is always better, that's right.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Right.

Speaker 5 (47:54):
Did we miss anything you want to add?

Speaker 3 (47:56):
No, I think you covered it all.
Yes, and I'm feeling very bareright now.
No, I'm kidding.
No, I'm kidding Because I thinkyou do bring up a really
interesting point is that thereis a healthy side to each of
these numbers and then there isan unhealthy side to each of
these numbers, and there's thatspace of learning.
Again, to me, like you allstarted out the conversation,

(48:19):
this is a tool.
It's a tool of discovery, andin discovery we, then it creates
options, and those options arewe can operate in a healthy
manner or we can operate in anavoidant manner, and sometimes
it's knowing that.
My option is that, yeah, I'mgoing to have to do some things
here that I may not enjoy andI'm going to have to be hemmed

(48:43):
in a little bit if I say yes tothis, but let our yes be yes and
our no be no, and let's beloyal and our no be no, and
let's be loyal and stick to thethings that we need to stick to,
because that may be somethingthat I, that there may be a knee
jerk reaction to that, but Iget to act opposite action, you
know, to emotion or to to fear,and that I, we get to move

(49:05):
through and we may look like adifferent number, but it's
because we're operating out of ahealthy space, right?
So I just think that's really.
That's the joy of understandingyourself.

Speaker 4 (49:17):
Yeah, okay, on to the eight.
One more thing about sevens.
Sevens also tend not to beterribly emotionally connected
to themselves, because they wanteverything to be light and
happy.
And sevens often look likethrees because they're actually
more interested in their imagethan you would think.

(49:38):
But it's a big part of sevensis how are other people
perceiving me?

Speaker 5 (49:43):
I want to be the fun person I want to be light.

Speaker 4 (49:45):
Yeah right, yeah, so okay, moving on to eights, so
eights are in the gut triad, orwhat we also call the
instinctual triad, and these arepeople that respond from that
just sense of knowing okay.
So they're not thinking theirway through life, they're not
feeling their way through life,they're sensing their way

(50:06):
through life.
So eights are typically verystrong people because they want
to avoid weakness andvulnerability.
They tend to be leaders becausethey're also in that aggressive
stance.
By the way, sevens are also inthe aggressive, assertive stance

(50:27):
, so they'll go against othersto get what they want.

Speaker 5 (50:32):
And eights, Sevens do it in such a charming way you
don't realize.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Yeah, they bring you along with them.
Eights, on the other hand, tendto just kind of put their foot
down and go no, I'm doing this,you know, and so they are strong
.
But people are often drawn toeights because of their strength
, and that can be a verymagnetic pull for people that
want that in their life, thataren't oriented towards really

(51:00):
stepping up or standing up, andso they'll look to eights for
that leadership and guidance.
And so they'll look to eightsfor that leadership and guidance
.
Eights are really, underneaththe surface, very sensitive
people and they want to do wellfor people.

(51:21):
They want to have an influencein people's lives and they want
to have an influence for good inpeople's lives.
They are often um impulsive,like sevens, because they're

(51:43):
very quick at making decisions.
Like eights sum up thingsreally quickly, they'll assess
something and they will have adecision like that and they
don't tend to go back on thatdecision.
Now they can be talked out ofit, if you know, with somebody
coming up with a reasonablereason to consider things
differently.
But they're just real quickassessors.
They move through life veryquickly and they move forward

(52:03):
through life.
Eights don't tend to look backand eights have a way of
communicating that can be verycut and dry.
They're not couching theirlanguage in softness or flowery
language, not because they wantto hurt anybody.

Speaker 5 (52:24):
They don't.

Speaker 4 (52:25):
They simply are so moving forward.
They want to get things done.
They don't want to spend a lotof time on extraneous
conversations because that getsin the way of getting things
done.
And eights have the most amountof energy of all the numbers on
the Enneagram.

(52:45):
Sevens are right behind them,but eights just, and they can be
like a bull in a china shop.
They don't mean to, but it'slike they have blinders on going
through life.
Especially the unhealthier youare, you're not very aware of
how you're impacting others, andso the healthier you are,

(53:07):
you're taking that intoconsideration.
It'll modify your language,you'll slow down and bring
people along.
But eights are the type that ifthey give you something to do,
they expect you to do it, and ifyou don't, they'll take it away
from you and do it themselves,um, real quickly.
So eights are um, not eightsget each other so we're not

(53:35):
offended.
We, we like the directness ofhow you talk to one another
directly when, and can getunderneath real quickly and not
be offended by it.
But eights can offend otherpeople if they're not aware of
how they're coming across.
Like I can't tell you how manytimes my husband will say do you

(53:57):
know what you just sounded likeand I'll go.
Oh, I'm so sorry, we don't meanto.
It's just the way it comes outso quickly.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 4 (54:10):
Yes, do you want to add?

Speaker 5 (54:10):
anything about AIDS.
Um, you mentioned the fear ofvulnerability and and I think
even just making that connection, that they move so quickly and
are so focused on, kind of um,maintaining a sense of control
and getting the job done, andthat is a self-protective
mechanism right.
Like that's a self-defense thatkeeps them from really being

(54:33):
able to connect with themselvesand and connect with others.
Right, it's that kind of thatis true.

Speaker 4 (54:39):
And in fact I'm glad you brought that up, because
eight, nines and ones, those arethe types that are in the gut
instinctual triad.
Those types are most concernedwith power and control, and that
is why anger is the mostfamiliar emotion for all three

(55:00):
of those types.
Now they manage that angerdifferently.
Eights tend to be moreexplosive and say it like it is,
and so that's why, whensomething happens, they feel it
in the body.
They're real, connected to whatthe feelings in the body are.
So, whether it's a tummy acheover something, a headache over

(55:21):
something, a shoulder strain,something is intuitively going
on that they need to be aware ofbecause they're feeling it in
their body.
And so eights are orientedtowards the future and, like I
said, they don't tend to lookback, which means not all eights
are great at keeping uprelationships of chapters in

(55:43):
their life in the past, notbecause they don't dearly love
those people, but becausethere's people in the future
that they're they're having tomove towards Right, and so power
and control is that that thingthat most drives the eights,
nines and ones.
So, but the power and controlis so important to these three

(56:06):
numbers we all have a need for.
Power and control is soimportant to these three numbers
?
We all have a need for powerand control, we all have a need
for connections and relationship.
We all have a need for safetyand security, right, but we have
a dominant need, depending onwhat your type is, and this is
the dominant need of the eightsMakes sense.
So, moving on to the nines, ourlast number that we're going to

(56:27):
talk about, these are calledthe peacekeepers and nines,
interestingly enough, have aconnection to anger, but you
don't see it so much Becausenines manage their anger by
pushing it down, by suppressingtheir anger, because nines have

(56:47):
a desire to not have theirinward peace disrupted, and
having to deal with things thatbother them disrupt their inner
peace, and so nines tend to gothrough life like this where
fours have these emotions likethis, nines have their emotions
like this so nines are totallysteady and fours are peaking and

(57:11):
valleys.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
Yes, lots of back and forth.

Speaker 4 (57:14):
Right, yes, yes, and the nines have a disconnect of
knowing who they are and knowingwhat they want, of knowing who
they are and knowing what theywant.
It's much easier to ask a ninewhat they don't want, because

(57:35):
they can identify that betterthan asking them what they want.
So if you're going to go todinner, don't ask a nine where
do you want to go to dinner?
There's way too big of aquestion.
They have no idea, but you canstart narrowing it down for them
.
Do you want Asian food?
Do you want Mexican food?
Do you want that?
Okay, now we've landed on Asianfood, here's three picks.
You know, and I will force.

(57:58):
We have all of the types in ourfamily because our family is so
large, we get to practice withevery type practice with every
time, and I will force our ninesto make decisions, because they
could easily just acquiesce towhat the group wants or what the
other person wants.

Speaker 5 (58:15):
Right and and they ultimately believe their voice
doesn't really matter that muchfor a nine.
A lot of times they have thismentality of I mean, if I wasn't
there it wouldn't really make adifference, it wouldn't matter,
which sounds sad to some of us,but to them that's not
necessarily this like depressing, sad thing.
I think it actually kind oflets the pressure off a little

(58:38):
bit right, like if I can believe, it doesn't really matter if I
show up or not show up.
That allows me to keep my innerpeace.
Nines are in the withdrawingstance and so that means they go
inward right and the, the typesin the withdrawing stance, they
really do struggle toacknowledge the impact that they
have on others because, again,they live inside Right.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Exactly, exactly, it's interesting because each
there's a group, there'sgroupings, as you all have
pointed out there's theinternalizing group, there's the
externalizing group and thenthere's the group of trying to
figure out the balance of theinternal, external and what
they're trying to achieve withall of that.
And I think the beauty again,this is a tool is that I think a

(59:24):
lot of times when we look at atool and we see a static well, I
am an eight, I am a three, I ama seven, I am a whatever we
think, well, I'm stuck there.
Well, I'm a seven, I don't dopain, so I'm not going to go to
that.
I'm an eight, I deal in realism.
That hurt, sorry, that's thetruth.
I'm a three.

(59:44):
Well, I'm achieving Sorry, thatdoesn't matter to me, you know.
Or I'm a six, hey, I want to besafe.
So if that impacts you in anegative way, sorry, I'm a six.
And I do see people use it thisway where it is an immovable
theme in their life.
But I think where the health ofthe Enneagram comes in is is
this is a starting point ofexploration and curiosity.

(01:00:08):
Now, how do I move beyond?
I didn't intend to hurt you.
Let me say that softer.
Whoa, that is painful.
I need to sit in that with you.
I don't want to, but I'm goingto because that's what's best
for both of us.
You know that's there anachievement and an efficiency.
Well, intimacy doesn't lenditself to efficiency.

(01:00:29):
Therefore, I need to sit in anintimate moment because
efficiency could really drivethe intimacy out of this, but I
know that intimacy has its placeas well.
So it's that moving throughthat, I think, is a starting
point as a tool, not a staticpoint, that's right, that's
right, and not to wear your typeas a badge of honor.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
Right and never to beat one another up because well
, I, you know, you do thisbecause you're this or to
justify.
Well, I do this because that'sjust who I am I'm an eight.
That's just arrogant andunproductive and unbeneficial,
right.
And so the beauty, like yousaid, is moving underneath to

(01:01:14):
recognize.
wow this is my way of being, butit's not the most beneficial
way of being for me and can Igrow out of that and until we
get to that place of beinghonest with the reality of of
who we are in our false self?

(01:01:34):
That's really where we meetjesus so deeply too, because we
find that jesus meets us thereand he's not judging us.
He knows how that developed andformed to survive in the world
he wants to.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
In the world he wants to walk with us out of that
strong stronghold into a placeof freedom and liberation Right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
And authenticity.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
Yeah, I love that.
And so you all have taken theEnneagram and thank you for
going through all the numbers,because it gives us a foundation
for which for which for me toask this next question.
So you all have taken theenneagram and you utilize it
with teams, and so what's beenyour experience with that?

(01:02:22):
How is that?
What does that look like?

Speaker 5 (01:02:25):
it's really fun.
First of all, it's really fun,um, I think I think one of the
coolest parts of it is helpingpeople to see themselves in a
more honest light for thepurpose of having compassion and
understanding.
And again, this invitation ofyou don't have to stay stuck in
how you've been functioning andoperating, but within the

(01:02:47):
context of a system, whetherit's a family or a team, um,
where where we've seen a lot ofreally just neat things happen
or conversations, is when, whenthe people in that space begin
to understand each other and seeeach other in a more honest
light, right, and kind of likesome of the examples you gave

(01:03:08):
you, you begin to let certainexperiences go and it doesn't
feel so personal because youactually understand the
motivation, right, or at leasthave space to be curious about
what the motivation might be andto explore that.
But also it gives a lot ofinsight into how to move towards
those individuals, thoseindividuals, um, and then

(01:03:28):
finally, in a work setting whichwe've worked with, a lot of um,
of businesses and stuff is uh,kind of even like the roles that
each person plays in that teamand you know, is this the best
fit as far as the role or jobdescription, um, and you know
maybe when their boss or manageris is having to have a

(01:03:48):
difficult conversation.
This gives so much directionand freedom to have those
conversations in a reallyproductive, effective way.
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:04:02):
Some of our businesses we've worked with
have, after we've gone in andpeople have identified their
type, they'll put on theiroutside their office door their
name with their type and um, andagain, it's not because we're
putting you in that box, it'sgiving people an understanding

(01:04:22):
of a deeper part of how you seethe world.
And then when I come in andhave a conversation with you and
I remember, oh yeah, you'reseven, then I can shift and
expand my own understanding andeven communicate differently,
because the way we solveproblems, the way we have

(01:04:42):
conversations and having to havehard conversations, we can
adapt that to the person's style.
Now, that takes a lot of work,it's not going to be a one time
thing.
We can adapt that to theperson's style of.
Now that takes a lot of work,it's not going to be a one-time
thing, but then when you usethat in families because we've
done it with families also, andthey begin to understand their

(01:05:02):
children or the spousesunderstand each other, you
really are opening the door to adifferent way of communicating
and a different way ofunderstanding.
But again, like your work, ittakes a lot of self-awareness.
It takes intentionality andattentionality to be able to do

(01:05:25):
the work.
So for some people, theEnneagram is just kind of a fun
thing to learn about and theynever do anything with it.
Some people, the Enneagram isjust kind of a fun thing to
learn about and they never doanything with it.
And for others, they want tolive out of who Jesus says they
are the truth of their being andnot the egoic way of our being.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
What a beautiful service to offer, because you're
offering a tool.
Because I'm thinking about likea couple, and if you have like,
say, a six and a seven that endup together as a husband and a
wife, you have someone who isalways preparing for the

(01:06:06):
negative, someone who's alwaysliving for the positive, and
there could either be a wholelot of symbiosis there, right,
that could go positive ornegative, but there also could
be some explosiveness there thatdoes not go towards the
positive and understanding fromwhere they're coming, that

(01:06:27):
there's a, there could be a lotof freedom, right.
Or if you have, say, a two anda seven who get together, you,
the two, would be so oriented tothe seven, and the seven being
oriented to themselves.
There's that space of like doyou just take right, and so,
again, it's that, it's, you know, an an eight being with a nine.

Speaker 5 (01:06:48):
I'm happy to tell you how the world needs to look
Right and the nine's happy tolet you take charge.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
And in unhealth, that's what we do, right, you
know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:58):
And having that roadmap of something that is not
only an understanding but aspace to begin exploration.
I mean, because you know Ithink about.
In any realm, I don't care whatyour number is.
If someone says go paint theuniverse, that's overwhelming,

(01:07:19):
yeah.
But if somebody says hey, Iwant you to start here, I want
you to explore this area, I wantyou to see what you think, what
resonates with you.
Even the tool itself isself-discovery.

Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
Right, right, brilliant, yeah.
And I think the other greatthing about the Enneagram is it
is a tool of self-discovery andin our egoic way of being, it's
so much easier to see the flawsin others, to want to blame
others and not to look inward atthe self.

(01:07:53):
But once we do, once we takeownership, once we start doing
the work, even the things thatothers do that maybe used to
really bother us or annoy usstart to be more minimal and

(01:08:15):
diminish the impact that othersways of being used to impact us
in a big in.
Exactly one of my favoritethings that I kind of discovered
this year is where I can'tremember whether it's Matthew
mark I'm sorry I don't have theaddress for it but where the man
comes to Jesus at this it mighthave been the parable of the

(01:08:37):
sheep and the goats and theycome to Jesus and he says get
away from me, I don't know you.
And they said but I did this inyour name and I did this for
you and I did this for you.
And it seems so harsh whatJesus is saying Get, I did this
for you and I did this for you.
And it seems so harsh what Jesusis saying Get away from me.
I don't even know you Right andwhat I learned this year, and I

(01:09:00):
don't know where I heard thisor discovered this, but it was
Jesus saying you're coming to mein your false self.
I don't know the false self.
I know the true self that Icreated and that's how you come
to me, that's who you are,that's who I made you to be, and
it is beautiful and it isperfect and it is lovely, and we

(01:09:21):
keep trying to perform our waythrough this world and prove
things, and we don't need to doany of that with him.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
Yeah, prove things, and we don't need to do any of
that with him.
Yeah, and what a beautifulspace it could be that we would
have a community where we didn'thave to do that with each other
.
Yeah, not to say that we couldlive out of a place of being
reckless, but that we could also.
But that we could liveauthentically and say, yeah,

(01:09:49):
that that is me, but I also needto consider you, and that we
have space for each other, thatwe could allow ourselves to grow
in authenticity, and that wouldthat would be following.
What his whole plan was for usis to live authentic, to live
out of our true sense of who weare.

(01:10:11):
And it's so beautiful that youall offer this to corporations,
to businesses, to families, andwhat a what a beautiful service
and what a wonderful tool.
So thank you for coming andsitting down with me to talk
about this, and every time wetalk about this, I feel like I

(01:10:35):
always learn something, so thankyou.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
Thank you, it is a blast.
It's so much fun.
We feel like we're sevens whenwe're doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
I love it.
If you found value in ourdiscussion and wish to uncover
more about the fascinating worldof mental wellness, don't
forget to subscribe to thepodcast.
Stay tuned for our upcomingepisodes, where Dr Long will
continue to delve intoempowering therapies and
strategies for mental wellness.
Your journey to understandingand embracing mental health is
just beginning and we're excitedto have you with us every step

(01:11:08):
of the way.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep growing and remember to
celebrate restored freedom asyou uncover it.
Thank you.