February 29, 2024 • 70 mins
Meet Kimberly Lee Minor, a dynamic force in retail leadership with over 25 years of industry experience. She's held pivotal roles in renowned organizations like Footlocker Global, London Fog, and Bath & Body Works. Currently serving as CEO of Bumbershoot, LLC, Kimberly's expertise lies in providing cultural and market insights for inclusive, equitable, and diverse representation across brand, content, product, and customer experience.
Kimberly's passion extends beyond business success. She's the founder of the Women of Color Retail Alliance (WOCRA), dedicated to closing the gender parity gap in retail leadership. As an educator and mentor at The Ohio State University Fisher College of Business, she promotes cultural competence and organizational excellence.
Join us in this episode as Kimberly shares her inspiring journey, leadership insights, and unwavering commitment to positive change in retail.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's so much, there's so much I want to talk
to you about.
This conversation has been soso long overdue.
I think the one place that Iyou know we're gonna get into
your career and all the greatthings that you've done but I
think the definitely the onequestion that I definitely want
to start with is, of course, thewoman of color in retail.
(00:20):
Right, I just think that's thebest place to start, because I
want to kind of put that stickin the ground and what you're
doing and what you're talkingabout, and what's the woman of
color and retail alliance whatis it and what are you?
I know you're trying to changethe world.
It's like pinky in the brain,Like what are you doing tonight,
Kimberly?
I'm trying to take over theworld, Steve.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Wait, I'm trying, yeah, no, I appreciate you
starting there because that islike foremost on my brain, not
just because it's what I'm doing, like 80 hours a week, but
there are so many topics thatare affecting people, and
especially women and women ofcolor, and so the issues that
(01:11):
have come up in every industryas it relates to women, women in
leadership and women of colorin those pipelines.
It's not germane to retail.
However, as someone who hasspent the past 30 plus years in
this industry, it is intimate tome.
(01:33):
I know it, and while I've hadan incredible career and it's
not over, but I've had anincredible career I was in this
industry, steve, for maybe 10 or12 years before I realized that
being a woman of color wasgoing to get in my way Right, I
(01:57):
just hadn't and I just I show upas
myself every day, but once I.
But I'm not naive either, andso when I got into situations
where I knew I was bringing it,I had the receipts, my sales
were happening, my people weregreat, my people were great.
My people were great and Istill was being treated a
(02:19):
certain way.
I started to talk, look forpeers and community, and it
wasn't there, because we're soisolated.
And so, as the years have goneon and you create your small
little personal board ofdirectors and we were talking
and we shared so many differentexperiences and while we were
(02:43):
all women, we were all differentwomen, right, and so, if you
think about it, I think it's agreat thing.
If you thought that the problemwas just for black women, then
you have friends who areHispanic or Asian and you're
having these conversations andtheir stories are almost
identical.
It's just a different person.
And so I was in 2018 and wewere talking and I said you know
(03:06):
, I've been wanting to dosomething about this for a long
time.
I just didn't know what it wasand I honestly didn't know what
other people's stories were,because I was so busy trying to
manage my own.
And so, the more we talked, themore we said well, no, let's
just start simple, we shouldknow each other.
Simple, and we kicked off witha virtual.
(03:30):
By the time we got it alltogether, it was September 20.
And we did a virtual gatheringwe should know each other and it
was beyond capacity.
Incredible People were, youknow, there were tears, there
was, you know, just thisrealization that we need each
(03:52):
other.
But beyond that, there wassomething that really could be
changed with the right focus,with the right allies, and we
said, okay, well, let's figureit out.
And so that's what we've beendoing since then, and it has
grown significantly.
So in three years, you know, wewent from 100 people on a Zoom
to this last year we did it 30events, 12 of them were C-suite,
(04:17):
which was new right, because wesaid, well, hey, let's have
conversations with the peoplewho are knowingly or not
standing in the door ofinclusion.
Have those conversations,understand why, like, what are
you thinking?
How do you see us?
Let's talk about that.
And so that turned into 12dinners across the United States
(04:38):
and in Toronto talking toC-suite leaders in retail so
that we could have theinformation we needed to help
them.
In addition, we've done a lotof partnerships with researchers
, because I am a data-basedprofessional and we have to have
the data and there's a lot ofdata to have Because there, but
(05:01):
it's not usually at theintersections, right.
So we've been doing a lot ofresearch to pull those pieces
together and to write a whitepaper so people could really
understand what is the state ofretail for women of color, why
does it matter, why does itmatter to you and what do we?
(05:23):
You know, walk Retail Allianceplan to do about it, but just to
throw some of the data outthere.
Yeah absolutely, women are 65%of corporate retail workforce,
just 65%.
Frontline 70%, but let's justtalk about corporate.
(05:47):
So 65% of corporate retail theyare 37% corporate retail
leadership and that's vicepresident and above.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Okay, so women of color combined, all women, all
colors, right, all women ofcolor are 6% of that number 6%.
Now here's the thing when westart out as trainee, he's an
entry level.
(06:19):
We start out equal.
They're 18% white women, 18%black women.
When you get to the first level, 10% black women, 20% white
women, and it continues tobifurcate from there.
Right, those numbers cannot beignored.
(06:43):
There's another research I justread the other day, I think it
was from Pew.
It said that if the pipeline tolead trip was open for all
women and that gap closed byjust 15%, that would be an
(07:05):
additional $12 trillion to theGDP.
And yet here we sit.
So that's what the Walk RetailAlliance is based on.
It's based on those numbers,making sure that we are
constantly seeking, updating andchanging the numbers.
(07:26):
And so last year was the firsttime we were really able to
track what our programming haddone, and as a result of our
programming, because ourprogramming is, as I said, the
C-suite dinners, but we alsohave level appropriate
programming.
That is networking, it'slearning.
We do workshops, careerstrategy workshops and panel
(07:48):
discussions, and it's alwaysaround networking and we always
curate who's going to be in theroom.
No-transcript we had by I thinkit was by December 1st 23, five
women who were actually able tomove up in stations as a result
(08:12):
of coming to our events andmeeting people, because we
should know each other and alsounderstanding how to be
strategic in their career.
And so we had one who becameSVP, two became AVPs right.
So now we're moving, we'redoing what?
we said we want to do, we'regoing to get them into the
leadership pipeline.
And there are also challengesthat women of color face,
(08:37):
through microaggressions or selfyou know, just like second
guessing them, and it's alwaysoh, you did that, that was great
.
Now here's another hurdle.
Show me you can do that.
Show me you can do that.
And there was a.
There were two young women whohave been promised some things
and then every time there wastime to discuss it, oh, but you,
(08:58):
you did these 10 things, butyou didn't do this a lot.
And so they were actually ableto get into much better
situations and now they're doinglike international business
with a company.
So I'm very proud of that andI'm looking forward to scaling
that as we continue.
You know, 24 is going to be apivotal year for us.
We are going on the road, we'vemade some incredible new
(09:21):
partners and you know that's howwe grow.
It's all about collaboration.
I'm when FUBU was a brand I wasreally proud of Damon Great.
I was at Foot Locker and we gotto sell it and I was really
happy.
But that as a concept forpeople who are trying to really
(09:42):
make a difference doesn't reallywork.
It's, you know, because,especially if it's a situation
you didn't create.
There's no way that you can fixit without having allies who
have actually been moreinstrumental in creating the
issue, and so partnership isvery important to us.
You know, our vision for thefuture is, you know, women of
(10:08):
color.
Elevated right, cs elevated.
The C suite needs to bediversified and then the
industry will change.
It will naturally change, it'llget bigger because, you know,
it's about economic empowerment,it's about professional
advancement, but it's reallyabout, and it's really about all
(10:30):
women.
You know, and I know thatoftentimes people will say, well
, we're for all women, so okay,well, let's talk about, let's
see your numbers.
And when you say that 37% ofleadership is women but only 6%
is six groups, then you're notfor all women, but we are,
(10:51):
because that's the only waywomen will rise is if all women
have the same access.
So that's why we're allianceand I'm super excited.
I was on the board and I tookthe leadership role as official,
as official, in January 2.
So, as a January, one becamethe CEO but actually started
working in that capacity inOctober.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
There are three things that I wanted to kind of
like layer in and actually kindof kind of combine.
You talked about pipeline.
You talked about, in thecontext of every level, the
number from a diversity you knowblack and brown goes down.
But then the other part thatyou talked about, which I loved.
(11:35):
You said that you know, as youare having these meetings and
you are dealing with the C suitepeople who are actually sort of
the, the ones who actually aresort of the gatekeepers, if you
will, for for these issues, whenyou have these conversations
with these individuals, are theyactually seeing the issue or is
it because of your conversationthat the light bulb sort of
(11:57):
comes on and they're kind oflike oh, I didn't really
recognize that I actually hadthis problem and now I need to
maybe do something differentfrom any pipeline standpoint and
then also, as they kind of go,as as the leaders go through and
go up the next letter level, Ineed to be doing something
different from an organizationalstandpoint.
Are they?
Are they?
Are they actually getting whatyou're talking about, or is
(12:18):
there is still more work to bedone?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
So both honestly.
But here's an example I wastalking to and this actually
didn't happen in our C suitedinner, but this is the catalyst
for our C suite dinner.
But I was at luncheon and therewas a woman there who is she's
pretty iconic in retail.
(12:44):
She's been in retail probablylonger than we've been a lot.
She's been CEO, she's beeninvestors on the boards, she's a
trailblazer.
And I introduced myself and Isaid I'd love to introduce you
to the walk retail alliance.
And so she said but wait, tellme more about you.
(13:06):
And so I did.
I told her she's like why don't, why don't I know you, like
I've never met you, and I said Idon't know, I don't know.
And she said Well, well, okay.
She said Can we stay in touch?
And I said yes.
I said but let me give you somemore information.
So I shared more data similarto what I shared with you.
(13:28):
This you know last year's.
The data has been updated sincethat book and so we exchanged
information.
She said I'll be right back.
She went and she got someinformation that she wanted me
to have.
She gave it to me and then shecalled me a few weeks later and
she said Kimberly, you've really, you really shook me and I said
(13:49):
how, what?
And she said I have been in mycareer for long, so long, and
I've been committed to making adifference for women in retail,
she said and I have placed womenon boards, I have promoted
women, I'm 100% high women, shesaid.
(14:10):
But after our conversation Iwent back and I did a little
self assessment and I found out,to my embarrassment and
disappointment in myself, that Ihad not promoted or or mentored
(14:32):
a woman of color in 40, someyears.
And I was like Well, you know, Iappreciate your honesty and I
don't want you to feel too badbecause I think you know we
reflect.
We reflect, I said but now thatyou know, I want you to be
active in helping me change that.
(14:54):
You know, and she is awonderful person, but it's those
, and those are the people thatyou know will be helpful because
they really self reflection.
Now, when we had the C sweetdinner, it's, it's.
You know, we hear a lot ofthings like I.
The one thing I've heardrepeatedly is we don't know
(15:17):
where to find them.
So I said Well, that'sinteresting because they're
working for you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Place number one right Start there.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Let's start there.
But for some reason, three,four, five years in, you stop
seeing them.
But you see other people andand those people's careers have
been nurtured, supported,sponsored, but there's something
about the women of color thatdon't get the same attention.
I said so that's what I wouldtell you start knowing who works
(15:53):
for you because they're there.
Other than that, that's whywe're having these C sweet
dinners, so we should know.
So now you can call me, or youcan call Bernadine, who's one of
our.
You know she's also with walkretail lines.
I said you can call us.
We have a database now of over3000 amazing women of color and
(16:15):
is growing every day, and sothat was the next idea for walk
retail lines.
Like we should be recruiters.
Right, Right, Like what, come on, I'll be a hard first one.
Like, we want to make sure youhave what you need.
So, as we are meeting you, weknow, Okay, this person needs
(16:35):
this training over here, thisperson needs a mentor to help
them over here, this person'sready to just need exposure.
Those are the things that arereally important.
But those, those comments,that's what we hear.
C sweet I have not heard.
I've heard this, but not withour C sweet dinners.
But I've heard Well, we wantthe best, which you know always
(16:57):
just makes me happy here thatpeople are thinking that we
can't have the best because theydon't understand the concept
that the more diverse yourtalent pool, the more options to
have to really have the bestand understand what the best
(17:18):
looks like, because it's not acolor and it's not a gender,
it's a thing that people bringwith.
And so if we can get peoplebecause I can't change racism
and I can't change what was it?
Gender discrimination?
(17:40):
I can't, I can't change thatbut what I can do is make it
more difficult for people to saythose things and they have to
be proven wrong, Right, so I canhelp the candidate and I can
help the company that isinterested in being, but the
ones who aren't.
(18:00):
Honestly, they're just going tobe left behind.
Right, Because, as you look atthis coming, well, they're here.
Right, Generation Z they'rehere and while there are a lot
of things that they didn't getbecause of pandemic and they
need that nurturing they need,they need a little extra help in
(18:24):
how they conduct themselves,how they but what's important to
them is Outstanding and thefact that they are willing to
die on a sword for your cause.
It has to be what's importantto them for them to walk into
your building to work for you,and they're very talented and
intelligent and just curious.
(18:45):
If you can't make anenvironment that they can see
themselves being successful in,you will lose out 100%.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It's interesting I'm and we're gonna move into some
leadership.
You know perspectives here In asec.
But when I, when I heard yousay the word we want the best,
it's almost, it's very.
It seems like code.
For I remember the word that alot of companies used to use,
word fit, and you know, culturalfit.
Are they a fit?
And it was that for me In myretail experience, that of what
(19:20):
that was code for.
You know, do they fit withinthe organization, whether it's
from a, you know, you know, racestandpoint?
They wouldn't say it that wayand when it wouldn't actually be
that overt.
But that's actually what they,that's what they really meant.
And it's interesting that nowthe I feel like some of that
terminology I've heard this,I've heard someone else say that
same phrase that you just saidwe just won't, we just want the
(19:42):
best.
And what does that really mean?
Whose definition are you usingof best right?
What are the parameters of bestright?
And then, more importantly,what are you actually doing To
cultivate the best?
And I don't think you knowthose two are Really necessarily
happening and what we're seeingout there in a lot of instances
, leadership is like yourbackbone, I mean.
(20:05):
I mean when I think about when I, when I first heard about you
and you know I just did my duediligence, so you probably saw
me like all on your LinkedInprofile I was like, okay, who
was this young me?
I got it, I got, I got a figure, I got to figure this thing out
.
I went to, I went to school onyou and everything that you've,
that, that you've done, ofcourse, and then, as CEO of a
(20:27):
bumper shot right, that is notthe that was at the beginning of
you know, of your, of yourleadership.
When you think about I'm gonnatalk, take from a broad
perspective and then kind ofdrill down.
When you think, look at thelandscape of leadership we just
kind of talked a little bitabout diversity and women of
color.
But when you just think aboutretail leadership in and of
(20:48):
itself you just came from NRF,things like that what's what's
missing in in in retail?
Because I have my ownperspective, I have my own
thoughts, because I don't feellike the retail industry pays
enough attention to the actualretail leader.
I'm a different place in theforefront.
But I want to get your ownperspective and I try to lead
(21:10):
the witness here.
But that's just my own thought.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well, no, I mean, yeah, I think you're spot-on
right.
When I, when I came into theindustry, I was fortunate enough
to come in through Macy'sexecutive training program and
at the time you know that waslate 80s and it was it was a
Well known that Macy's executivetraining program was like the
(21:34):
Harvard of retail and there were, there were several, you know,
lauren Taylor had theirs,blooming Dales but what was
special about the Macy'straining program is that it
taught you to be a merchant andso and, and it's also taught you
what a merchant was, and so amerchant is a business leader,
(21:57):
right.
So you are building yourbusiness and and it teaches you
all the connections and you know, you ran your business and so,
by having that background, whenI moved on to Express, which was
very entrepreneurial and it wasspecialty store and it was at
the beginning stage, like youknow, it was 91 92 Again, you
(22:22):
were responsible for yourbusiness.
So you had to understand theseare people who I have to work
with.
This is what it needs to looklike.
These, this is what successlooks like.
I'm negotiating, I'm findingthe product.
You know, I'm working directlywith my stores, even though I'm
not responsible for stores.
If I want my product to sell, Ineed to have relationships with
(22:45):
my store people because I needto know why isn't selling what?
What should be doing all ofthat?
So now let's fast forward totwo thousands those of us who
were in those leadership rolesor those training programs who
led to leadership roles.
We're doing well because we'vehad that training.
By the time you get to, like the2005, 2010, those programs
(23:10):
aren't the same.
They're very siloed and amerchant in title is Not
necessarily a merchant becauseyou're just picking right.
So now you, you don'tnecessarily know how to run a
business.
You know how to select yourproduct and your customer
relationship has kind of goneaway because you sit in your
(23:32):
office and so then it's astoryline versus the corporate
Organization, as opposed tounderstanding that this is one
brand.
And then you so your leadersStart to reflect this new way of
doing business.
Oh, it's very interesting towatch because I don't think I'm
(23:55):
old.
But when you know, when you'reinterviewing or you know called
about these jobs like I had aconversation not too long ago
with a recruiter you said youknow Kimberly Two years ago, the
fact that you have beenpresident of these brands as
well as worked for L brands andMace and had Macy executive
(24:17):
training experience, would havebeen automatically in door.
Now, these new brands, withthese new younger leaders who
don't know anything about whatretail is supposed to be and
where those connections weresupposed to be, they want
someone who is digital, who hasdone something innovative.
(24:37):
Now, to my benefit I waspresident of Bandir so they're
like yes, you know how to youknow still, but most people
don't, and so we those are the.
They kind of been put out topasture because this pendulum
has swung to it.
You had to be digitally nativeand how do we find all the you
(25:00):
know?
How do we find all these people?
That is a disservice to theindustry, because no business,
none, none, steve, there's not abrand out there who isn't
selling to people.
And so what?
How can you be successful in aconsumer, hyper consumer focused
(25:25):
industry if all of your focusis on algorithms and it's cost
of acquisition?
How are you retaining thiscustomer but you're not
interacting with the customer,so you don't even know what
they're, who they are, what theywant, right, and I think that's
(25:45):
that's what I think is a bigproblem with leadership, because
they have not been taught howto lead people and a business.
They've been taught how to readthe numbers and react to those
numbers and create influencerstrategies and all these things
that you can see.
They're just waning.
Yesterday I was talking to aformer colleague who is in the
(26:12):
Celebrity and sports influencerbusiness and doing Hella great.
I Just happened to reach out toher, ask a question yesterday
and she's like oh, I lost my jobtoday and I said what I just
talked to you you have this bigthing going with you know this
big celebrity.
She's like, yeah, and thenOctober 7th, and Now those
(26:38):
people, those celebrities,sports stars, they're all.
They all have an opinion andwhen they put their opinion out
there Then it becomes a problemfor the brand.
So these three brands who werehuge, like they did an event,
one event that cost a milliondollars, and they've decided
(27:00):
they don't want to do influenceranymore because it's dangerous
to the brand.
So now, if you are a leader whoall you know is that and you
don't know how to really connectwith your customer, how can you
be successful, right?
(27:21):
And how do you lead a teamwhere you don't have the
experience of having humancontact and you know, just like
having people embrace a commoncause, which is whatever the
brand you're selling, but it hasto be, it has to be some
(27:43):
emotion to it, right?
Because even brands, brandsthat lead with function, don't
do as well as brands that leadwith emotion and community and
all those things.
Right, we were talking aboutSamsung and Apple In the United
States.
Samsung leads with function,right, so we know they're
incredible.
(28:04):
Their function is incredible,right, was their market size
compared to Apple in the UnitedStates.
So those are the things I thinkare missing, and I don't know
if you've seen the same thing,but I just think that it's very,
very short-sighted approach100%.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
No, you're spot on when the individuals that I see
coming through from a coachingstandpoint there's two sides of
it.
They're the executive who'sbeen with the company for 15, 20
years and they are so heavilytied to that I think you and I
(28:48):
had this conversation before.
They are so heavily tied tothat brand and now they are
trying to become Kimberly Minorand understand what you want to
stand for and they don't know.
They're like I don't reallyknow what I stand for.
It's because I've been soheavily tethered to this company
and so trying to help them kindof decouple themselves and
(29:09):
really find out who they reallyare and what it is that they
want to stand for.
And then you go to the otherend of the spectrum where you
have the younger leaders who arecoming because they do have
created a really good onlinepresence, they understand
digital, but they don'tunderstand, they don't have the
business acumen, they don'tunderstand data literacy, they
(29:30):
don't understand how to havejust a one-on-one conversation
in order to provide feedback.
And so you have these twodifferent ends of the spectrum
from a leadership standpoint andthere is this massive gap that
really needs to be addressed,and I know that's what your
organization is doing isaddressing that gap on both ends
(29:51):
.
The interesting thing is thatwhen I think about, just like a
lot of people, my retail careerstarted I was in accounting,
hated it.
I lasted probably six monthsand I remember I was thrown into
a district manager and trainingprogram with Caribou Coffee and
(30:12):
, like I told him, I said Idon't know anything about coffee
.
I have no clue about coffee.
In college I was a Mountain Dewguy.
But he said you know what, youhave business acumen.
You understand how businessworks.
And then in the Air Force I hadoversight for two different
planes and so you understand howto lead people Right, and so I
(30:33):
didn't think about thosetransferable skills and I've
leveraged that my entire career.
And I think that's what we'remissing to your point is that
ability to be able to take dataand make a decision but also
understand how people play arole within that decision that
you're going to make and notalso making sure that you're
able to lead people effectively.
We are missing the humanconnection.
(30:53):
It's talking to someone in ourcommunity.
We have a learning calledLearning Labs.
These are one hour, intensifiedlike programs, and we're doing
one generative AI for retailleaders.
And it's interesting becausethe individuals who I've been
talking to around this AI islike Steve, I have no clue.
(31:15):
Like I hear my boss talkingabout it, I can hear think about
it in principle, but what doesthis really mean to me?
So just kind of further yourpoint around, like when you
think about the data and youthink about all these different
things, the leader has to beable to kind of translate that
and turn it into and internalizeit and then be able to educate
(31:36):
other people.
I think that's a massive piecethat's missing right now in the
retail leadership.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Well, you know what's interesting?
What we have in common is thatwe didn't come to retail by
retail Right.
My degree is in radio,television and film, with a
minor in art, dance and speech.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Really Malagachia.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right.
And the recruiter who was oncampus, he was relentless.
So, kimberly, you're going tosign up for that test yet no, no
, I have no interest in retail,because what I knew about retail
I had no interest in.
I was not working on the floor,right, I was like yeah no no, I
(32:24):
don't.
I said I didn't study retail,I'm not your person, sorry.
So he would talk to me everytime he saw me, like it was in a
sack.
So finally, I was talking to mydad and I was like this guy
just went home and my dad waslike well, you're not going to
be a starving artist.
Like well, so what do you planto do with this?
You know, you got offered a jobin some place in like North
Dakota.
(32:44):
I don't see you doing that,right?
And I said yeah, I'm not sure.
I said I'm going to go to gradschool.
I'm not sure.
And he was like well, I thinkyou should get sure, because I
think you think about having ajob.
You can go to school whileyou're working and I think you
should just take the test.
And I said, but why?
(33:05):
He said but you've always beenentrepreneurial.
Right, I had my first businesswhen I was 12 and I was catering
for my mom's friends.
Right, I've always beencreative.
Like telling the story hadbackyard you know his backyard
theater, like the summer theaterthings.
You hang up a, you hang upsheets off the side and you
(33:25):
write a play, like I used to dothat stuff all the time I was
that person post child for thegeek, you know like, oh, we're
going to do, and I was.
I danced, you know.
I was on stage, like all thosethings.
I did art, I had an art show, Ihad hurt my knee and I couldn't
dance, and so I was like, mom, Ihave to do something.
And she's like, okay, what doyou want to do?
(33:47):
I said, well, I love to, I loveart.
She's like, yeah, I know.
Oh, well, there's art school,let's see if you can get in.
You had to be 12 to get in,nine, but I passed the test and
so they let me in.
And so I've always just had avery diverse background, lots of
interest.
(34:08):
And when I finally said, yes, Ithink his name was Rick and I
said, okay, okay, rick, fillet,take the test.
And we, you know, after I tookthe test and I had a very high
score, we were talking and hesaid you know, here's why,
here's why I saw how youinteract with people, and they
(34:32):
were all people and you hadsomething of interest to say to
all of them.
And he said to me that is whatretail, retail, is how we tell
stories and how we connect witheach other, and we can do it
through products, we can do itthrough the marketing, but it's
a connoisseur and the fact thatyou have all these different
(34:53):
interests means you haveinterests in different people,
which is what makes a reallygood merchant and retailer,
because you don't have a pre, aprethought, right you, there's
no prejudice.
It's like oh, that's the personwho's different than the person
I met five minutes ago.
That's cool, who are you, andso you know.
(35:15):
I say that to say that's what Ithink also might be missing a
little bit, because we we havedivided and taken teams and make
judgments very quickly aboutpeople that we don't know and
we're not open to get to knowthem.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
My good friend Torben , over in the Netherlands.
He and I were just having thisconversation the other day and
he was a vice president for Nikeand was over here in the States
for a long period of time andthen moved back over.
He's from the Netherlands, buthe lives in Amsterdam right now
and we were talking about this,talking about leadership, and he
(35:54):
said, steve, you know, the onething that I feel is missing
very soon to what you said isthe ability for me to have a
conversation and to learn aboutthe person that's right in front
of me.
Like how do I move, remove theblinders, remove all this other
stuff and really just be curiousabout who you are as a person,
as an elite and as an individual?
And then, how can I help you?
(36:17):
What, after I'm learningsomething about you, what can I
do to actually help you?
What can I do to not justadvance your career right,
because that's that I thinkhonestly.
I think those are some of theeasy parts, but it's like, how
do I help you become better atwho you are?
Right?
I think we you and I are bothbeen very fortunate in our in
our careers to have had someamazing, amazing, amazing
(36:39):
leaders and mentors who you know, you know, in our lives.
I had a question here, one ofthe things that, oh, here's a
question I had.
Here's a question.
I'm going to cut this up inpost.
Were you a reluctant leader?
Where you are a reluctantleader, did you always?
You know, because I think a lotof when people see you right,
(37:01):
they see you on stage and theysee you having a conversation
and they're like man, kim Leewas probably like she, probably
like you know, you know at youknow, talk to the doctor like,
hey, don't, don't you slap me.
Like you know, when you wereborn, it was like, hey, let me
tell you something aboutyourself.
Right, like you were, like youwere born like a leader, or were
(37:23):
you a reluctant leader?
You kind of like morphed andmoved into this role.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I wish I could say I was reluctant leader.
But it's good yeah.
I know you're a friend of minefrom elementary school.
This weekend because I've beenasked by my high school to endow
a scholarship, and I wastalking to a friend and we
(37:51):
hadn't talked in a while, like Iactually had been 15 years, and
she said something that it hitme a certain way.
So we were talking about abunch of stuff and and where I
grew up it was a suburb ofPhilly very few black people
thinking it was too bad in ourschool.
(38:12):
And when the woman who hadreached out to me when I told
her what I wanted thescholarship to be about and who
it was for, she was like, well,I want your scholarship to be
successful and you know, theyjust don't seem to come out for
(38:32):
scholarships.
So I was like, who is that?
I knew that my friend worked atthe high school, right, and so I
reached out and I was like okay, so this is the feedback I've
gotten, but this is what Ireally want to do.
I want this money every year togo to a woman of color who
(38:54):
wants an education but doesn'tknow what she wants to do.
It's like that's amazing.
Like that's amazing.
No adult has said it's okay notto know what you want to do and
I said right, but that's what Iwant.
And she got quiet and she saidokay.
So I said to say this, becauseI've known you since you were
(39:14):
five she's like how did you?
Just?
She's like you were kind oflike a kick-ass kid and you just
were like this is what we'regoing to do, we're going to do
this, and this is why she said,and you get in that way your
whole life and like whensituations happen, you're like,
okay, so let me just recap.
(39:35):
So here's where we had theproblem, so let's just fix that.
And so when I was in school,you know, I was president of my
class, I was president ofstudent government in my
community organizations and youknow, but I never really here's
the thing, steve I never steppedup or said I want to do that.
(40:01):
It would always come like hereare the nominees, like before
you even think about it, andthey're like okay, kimberley's
been nominated, right.
So I guess, while I feltcomfortable I've always felt
comfortable in that space I'vealso been supported by people
who see me in that role andrespect me to be a leader who
(40:24):
would do the right thing forthem.
And that's what she was talkingabout too, because I said
there's still some issues.
There sounds like there areissues.
I guess they still exist whereneighborhood politics like you
live in the neighborhood withall white people and then I live
(40:44):
in the neighborhood that's nearthe railroad tracks, and so I
feel bad about myself.
And what Kimmy said was she waslike well, you never cared.
You never cared.
You saw us all as, hey, we'reall in this.
Why are you mad at me?
My mom and dad bought thathouse.
(41:04):
I don't know anything to dowith that house, but I'm here
with you and what do you need?
How can I help?
How can I make this better?
How can I help?
And so I think and I come frompeople like that, you know, I'm
from my mom and dad be thosepeople for other people and in
my community, and I thinkthere's a lot of me.
Who that is, I didn't know.
(41:29):
There was another choice,because I felt like, like I'm
just that person that ifsomething's not right and it
needs to be done, am I going towait for somebody else to do it,
or am I going to start figuringout how to do it and bring
people with me to make it happen.
(41:49):
And I'm more of that.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
That's so good.
That's so good.
I got two more things I want tocover, and everything we just
spoke about is a perfect segueinto you being an adjunct
professor Right, you having thatsurety of who you are, what you
stand for.
You know when you see a problemhey, you know what I see it.
(42:14):
We talk about leadership.
Right, you see and seizeopportunities.
Right, you have that ability todo that.
But now, as an adjunct, right,you are teaching a generation of
leaders or people, students,who may not have that same kind
of like you know understandingof the world, and they may have
(42:35):
to think differently.
How are you able to, or whatare some of the lessons that
you've learned personally fromeducating and connecting with
some of these students that youknow?
You were like, oh, I didn'texpect that this was going to
happen.
I thought I was just going tobe able to share all of my
wisdom.
And here I am.
I'm learning X, y and Z fromsome of these guys and gals and
(42:56):
people at Ohio State University,right?
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, ohio State Fisher School, so let me just
say this Childbirth and teaching20 year olds scary as hell.
I just put it out there.
Not a lot of shaking I will,not a lot of shakes me, but
(43:24):
childbirth and walking into thatclass for the first time shook.
I was shook, right.
I was like, oh, and I'm becauseI did walk in, thinking I know
this, I know this informationand I've done it.
I can bring this and look at 45people, just right.
(43:49):
And so I just I was thinkingabout it and think about it and
I actually called my son, who isalso a senior in college, and I
said I need some advice.
Here's what I'm thinking.
What do you think?
And he was like he is great.
(44:10):
He was like, look, mom, firstof all, you're intimidating as
hell.
Like, just put it out there.
He's like I love you, I'm notintimidated, but sometimes,
right, he's like so you justhave to.
You might want to take a fewminutes to think about that Like
you carry yourself a certainway and everybody who's in your
(44:31):
class has looked you up.
You think about that.
Right, like that's what youbring with you and it's positive
, but you're going to have tomake it almost invisible, right,
bring it, bring it, but notbring it right.
Oh, that's good, john, thankyou he's like and let people
(44:53):
ease into it.
He said you are funny.
You're really funny when youlike the stuff you say you're
like mom right.
He said say that, be that person, don't feel like you have to
put that in a bag.
Just be.
You make people laugh, and welearn things when we are
(45:14):
comfortable, and just like youwould do with Carter or me, and
if we say something that'sridiculous and you're like what,
wait a minute, we need to goback and let's talk about that.
He said that's good.
He said because that doesn'thappen in classrooms.
Most people don't really teach,they put slot.
He says so if you just bringyourself and understand, it's
(45:36):
going to take a while for peoplenot to be intimidated.
It's going to be, it's going tobe good.
And so that's what I did.
Now, most people liked it.
Some people know, but that'sthe way it is too.
But what I've learned?
I learned a lot from mychildren, but what I've learned
(45:58):
from my students is the worldhas really big expectations for
them, but we haven't given themall the tools for them to live
up to those expectations.
And so this is my secondsemester teaching and in my
(46:19):
brand management class here's anexample.
We were talking about brandpositioning statements and how
important they are, and so theyhad an exercise to do and they
were doing, and they alsoeverybody's once in A.
And so they were, like you know, we won, was you know doing
this?
But then, point to you, askedus for 250 words statement on
(46:43):
who we are as a brand.
But when I, when we looked atthe video, it was just a one
liner.
So I said well, there are twoparts to your your assignment
that one refer to existingbrands in the marketplace for
you to create a brand statement.
And then your classmates weregoing to tell you what brand
(47:06):
that was.
And there's two yes, it's 250words statement about who you
are.
Because we're going to createbrand positioning statements on
you.
You are a brand.
And I said has anyone evertalked to you about who you are
as a brand, your personal brand?
One person raise your hand.
I have 50 students thissemester.
(47:28):
One person raise your hand andI said well, have you ever aside
from someone telling you that?
Have you ever considered it?
And they were like well, no.
I said well, tell me why.
I said because when we think ofa brand, we think of selling
you have to sell brand, butwe're not selling ourselves.
I said so what are you doingwhen you go in your job area?
Oh, and then do you haveLinkedIn pages?
(47:53):
Yes, and what's on those pagesif you're not a brand?
And so they're like right.
And so it was just so much funbecause I was like okay, here
are four statements.
I want you to take those 250words, I want you to condense
them into these four statementsI am, I have, I will and I want.
(48:18):
And it was just eye-opening tothem.
And when we came back to classearly, we never really thought
about that because we thinkabout this, right, or you know,
and what I love about them nowthat they're more comfortable
because we're going into ourfourth week class is that they
will ask questions aboutanything.
(48:39):
And I told them at thebeginning I was like if you
don't ask me questions, we'renot going to be friends, like.
I want to ask a bunch ofquestions and they're good
questions and I ask themquestions just for questions.
But I'm also seeing the mostintrovert of students go up to
class a little early to have theconversation, talk about okay,
(48:59):
that's important, or stay afterclass, and I absolutely love
that because they're not gettingthat information anywhere else.
And I thought I said we'regoing to learn brand strategy,
but you're also going to learnhow to leave this classroom and
graduate and go out with theconfidence that you need to be
(49:19):
successful.
And so you know people seem tolike that.
They're also used to coaches.
You know they had an assignmentto do an outline and they came
to the professor do you justwant the outline with the names
and how we're going to approachthis project?
I said yes, nothing else.
(49:40):
I said no, is this not right?
Yes, but they're used to.
And I was like wow, did we dothat?
Did we create these children oryoung people who A don't know
what to expect, but when theyare expecting something, it's a
gotcha.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
That's so good.
That's so good.
We see that professionally,though, too right.
We see that gotcha mentality.
The one thing I love about whatyou said is that I did adjunct
for a number of years and whatwe do now in the campus we do
the majority of all of ourtraining is live right, we have
(50:22):
a couple of you know what wecall learning labs, things like
that, but we actually recordthose live and then they're up
in the community.
There's this thing that it's notnew, but I've kind of sort of
coined the phrase.
It's these moments ofrevelation right that you get,
or that the students get.
Right, that you can't get froman LMS setting.
(50:43):
Right, if you're looking at, ifsomeone who is training and
they're looking at LMS, you knowthat learning management system
and someone you know looking atand they say something awesome,
all you can do is rewind andthen repeat what that person
just said.
You can't go deeper, you can'tgo broader.
There isn't any at that momentof revelation when someone wants
(51:03):
to go deeper and broader justlike you were talking about the
students that were that wouldstay afterwards there was
something that you said in classthat resonated with them so
much they were like I got toknow more about this one.
I got to know more about thatthat's where the real learning
kind of takes place and it getssolidified.
I think so much, so often we somuch surface level training,
(51:26):
education and even conversationsand concepts around leadership
that everybody can talk aboutleadership, everybody can be an
expert.
But really can you actually goa little deeper and actually
help somebody kind of like feelit where they actually want to
move forward?
Because we've talked aboutfeeling.
The last question, the verylast question that I have for
you is your TED talk on failure.
(51:49):
You know I was going to, youknow I wasn't going to let you,
let you, you know, in thisconversation, without us talking
about that, I watched itseveral times, several times,
and you know I love the, the,the, the, the concept around,
around fail and this idea aroundchanging our perspective around
(52:12):
what failure is.
Right.
You've had this and youcontinue to have this
illustrious career right, whereyou started in stores and, and
you know, rocked it out there,crushed it there.
Now you are changing the entiredynamic of the retail industry
with, with women of color, ofretail.
You know alliance, right, andnow you're actually in the
(52:35):
classroom and you're changinglives there, right.
So when you think about the,the, the gravitas of actually
doing a TED talk about failure?
Cool Um, were you nervous aboutthat topic?
And then how did you actuallycome up with that topic?
Because you've had a lot ofsuccess in your career but I'm
(52:56):
quite sure you've had somefailure.
Could you kind of correlate thefact of of the idea around why
you wanted to actually have thatTED talk and then maybe some of
the failures or one failurethat you've actually had to kind
of maybe spurred thatconversation or the dialogue
that you wanted to have for thatTED talk?
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Well, yeah, I mean um , yes.
So when I was contacted to dothe TED talk, um, I was really
surprised that they werecontacting me because I didn't
know how TED talks work.
I watched TED talks but not,and, um, when I was being
interviewed, they were talkingabout the subject matter.
(53:33):
The theme was growth.
And I was like, oh, okay.
So I said, are therelimitations to what you can talk
about?
I'm like no, that's okay.
So I went home because they Iknow, they said we really
enjoyed meeting you, we thinkyou have a presence, that'd be
(53:54):
great.
So I was like what?
What has been my biggestcatalyst to growth?
If I'm honest, I love it, andit's been loss and failure.
And so I was like, okay, butare people going to accept that?
(54:15):
Right.
Cause you know there's so manybuzzwords around like fail fast
and all this stuff.
But if I'm going to do this, ithas to be honest and it has to
be meaningful and I'm hoping, ifit's meaningful to me to
deliver, it's meaningful forothers to receive and um, and
(54:40):
I've had a few like.
I've had some really big lossesand um and failures and you
know, personally I'mprofessional.
I lost my mom at an early age,I had poor miscarriages before I
had my older son, you know, andso I touch on those things in
there.
But I would say that my biggestprofessional failure that has
(55:04):
cattle, I mean it has catapultedme was being fired from Bath
Body Works and it.
You know how when something ishappening and you're like what
am I?
Is this happening?
And then when you just sit init and you're like, oh, I know,
(55:28):
and it doesn't have anything todo with me, and that's what it
was, that's what it was when I,I, I, my, my career at Bath Body
Works was solid.
I added over a billion dollarsto the home business.
My team was outstanding.
(55:48):
I went from leading oneorganization, which was the home
team, as the chief merchant, tobeing SVP over a merchandising
group, I had to build thestrategy group and I had
operations.
I had to create a whole newprocess for the business because
(56:12):
we were shutting down the NewYork office and I didn't know
that was going to be ourresponsibility until I was
called into a meeting.
It's okay, Kimberly, once youmeet, this is what we're doing,
Thank you, and left.
And I was left to figure it allout.
I spoke at the quarterlybriefings because my business
was on fire and I was changingthe way we worked.
(56:33):
And then I got sick and while Iwas out sick, some stuff
happened that I had no nothingto do with, but I was blamed for
it.
And when I came back I was letgo.
And I had never been let go.
I had been a part of a companywhere we had to shut the
(56:59):
business down, but I wasn't letgo.
I was part of that shutdown andthen I had to decide what I
wanted to do next, but toactually just be let go.
And you knew there wassomething else to it, because
what the people were saying toyou in the room didn't make
sense, and I left there.
On that day I went to themovies and I just sat in the
(57:21):
movies and then I went home andI was like you know, I moved my
family for this job and I'mgoing to tell them.
So that's another layer offailure, because now I've failed
.
I got fired.
Now I'm failing as a motherbecause I moved my children from
their friends and farther fromtheir family to be here, and I'm
failing as a partner becauseour lifestyle is based on both
(57:45):
of our careers.
Right, and it just went deep andI had to take some time and
talk to my therapist.
It was great.
She was like, okay, I heareverything you're saying, but
you're bigger than that.
(58:05):
Like you're bigger than that.
So I want you just to sit in it.
Just sit in it and see what youwant to do about it.
And when I sat in it, the moreI sat in it, the more I was got
angry and stopped feeling like Iwas a failure and started to
have this fire because, like Isee very clearly, because after
(58:25):
I was let go, there are only twoother women of color there and
they each were let go, Similarfashions.
So I was like huh.
And then a member of the boardreached out to me and said
everything we've heard about you, all these things you've been
doing were fantastic.
And then you came back.
In the next week you came backand then a week later you're no
(58:48):
longer there.
Why.
I said, well, I don't know why,I can, I can guess.
But and it was just having thoseconversations, steve, and
saying, all right, it's time todo something.
It's time to do something.
And I didn't know what it was,but it was like a fire in me and
(59:13):
I know what this is some BSthat had nothing to do with me
and it is happening to women ofcolor every day, or other women
like there were women who werelet go because of their age.
They didn't say that, but youknew, based on all the stuff
that was going on, and I waslike, yeah, I have to use my
(59:39):
powers for good now and I needto be a truth teller and not
afraid, because I'm not beholdento any of these people and I
think all of this happened forthat reason, because it was.
I remember it was the first, itwas LinkedIn post and it was
about something that happenedand I gave my honest, totally
(01:00:01):
true, like this is some mess andhere's why.
And the woman I worked for atBath and my Work had gone on,
she had moved on before they letme go.
She was the first person to hireBumption and she was like you
(01:00:22):
know, I'm sorry I was part ofsome mess so I didn't even know
about it until it happened, butyou're very valuable and it was
from there.
I got another and then I got VanDeere and I went into all that
with this newfound freedom thatI just I was like, well, I don't
(01:00:45):
think failure is a loss anymore, because all those failures
have has led me here, and everyday I wake up, I can meet new
people, my time is my own, I'mmaking a change in the industry,
I'm mentoring young people.
If that's what that failure hasled to, I am so good.
(01:01:07):
I am so good and I want peopleto understand that.
You know Every experience.
It might feel bad when ithappens, but if you really sit
in it, there's a reason for itand there's a lesson to me learn
.
And if you've learned a lesson,it's not a failure.
It's just not a failure.
But you have to feel it.
You know, I didn't.
I wasn't like yeah, but I alsowas pretty secure as and I teach
(01:01:31):
this to young people now I saidI negotiated my exit before I
walked in the door.
So when they were telling thoselittle stories, I was like,
okay, my attorney already has my.
I'm good.
I just didn't know what wasgonna be next.
(01:01:52):
And it's also just given me thefreedom that I don't have to
chase the next corporate job,because I'm working on something
that's much more meaningful tome now and I would have never
gotten here if it wasn't forback-and-body works.
Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
No, oh my goodness, oh my goodness.
We could go on, but I'm gonnabe extremely respectful over
your time.
Correct Sage you have.
You know what you've created,and this is.
I'm gonna chop this part off,but you, as I was thinking about
this, I said I have like five,six in different episodes Out of
(01:02:32):
this conversation.
I am so excited to actually goahead and get to the editing
part of this conversationbecause I know it is going to
bless so many people.
It's 2024, I'm just sort of thelast who round.
I'm gonna talk about this onetoo.
It's 2024.
What's next?
(01:02:53):
What are your plans?
Q1, q2?
What are like one or two thingsthat you're really gonna be
going after personally, but alsolike from a professional
standpoint, if you will?
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
They may go inside.
So, personally, I'm gonna tellmy age.
I'm a leap year baby, mybirthday is February 29th and I
was born the year of the dragonand this is the year of the
dragon and I have a realbirthday.
So, personally, I'm gonna bepartying for a year Because I'm
(01:03:26):
gonna celebrate me as a personwho's the year of the dragon.
So that's personally.
That's awesome.
Professionally, there's so manythings that just in the past
four months, I've put in thepipeline for women of color
retail alliance that I'm soexcited to just pop off.
So we have a podcast coming,we're working with incandescent
(01:03:50):
media, we have memberships nowright, corporate and visual
memberships and we have somereally cool new partners that
we're gonna be bringing someunique programming to our roster
of offerings.
So I'm super excited about that.
(01:04:11):
And we also just startedworking on our 2025 summit.
We're actually gonna do asummit, and what's cool about
that summit is that it's gonnabe about people.
It's gonna be focused on thesofter side of retail, and so
we'll be looking for partnerswith that, and I know you and I
(01:04:32):
had started that conversation,but we're gonna really do that
so that we can kick it off in 24, because it's gonna happen in
25.
And so, professionally, I thinkthat's what I'm excited about.
I'm also excited my songraduates in May.
Super excited to celebrate thatmilestone with him and see
(01:04:55):
what's next.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
He had so much great stuffgoing on.
I truly, truly wanna thank youfor, dare I say, our friendship.
Right, I know we've connectedseveral times and I know we
haven't connected in person,which is crazy, but we will.
We will very soon.
Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
I'll be in Atlanta.
Oh yeah, I think in Februaryand then definitely in May.
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Oh, okay, well, definitely, we'll definitely
connect then.
But just following your career,you have been an inspiration
and just learning from you andwhat you're doing with your
organization, I've been able toapply several things to what I'm
doing over here as well.
So you are truly an inspirationto not just women of color, but
(01:05:45):
to men of color too, I hope youknow that.
I don't know if anyone's evertold you that, but if not, you
are Just because of yoursteadfastness and who you are
and what you stand for.
There's no wavering in you,there's no guessing in you and
who you are, and there's asurety of conversation and what
(01:06:06):
you're gonna get, and I thinkthat's lost.
It's a lost trait, if you will,of a lot of leaders now, not
who they are, but it is who youare, which is why I asked that
question around where you wereelected leader.
I kind of knew the answer, butI just wanted to get your
perspective on that one.
I just want to thank you somuch for your time and for
(01:06:28):
everything that you've done forfor the retail industry and also
for myself as well.
I thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Thank you, steve.
It's been a pleasure to be heretoday and it's been a pleasure
to get to know you, and I'vebeen able to reach out to you
about some personal things andalso put you on the list of our
advisors for Walker.
I didn't know if you knew that,but you are.
And I'm surprised because menof color and retail.
They need attention.
Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Yeah, just a little bit, Just a little bit, just a
little bit.
That's a whole anotherconversation with you on that
one too.
But you're 100% correct.
Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
All right well, thank you.
There's so much, there's so much I want to talk
to you about.
This conversation has been soso long overdue.
I think the one place that Iyou know we're gonna get into
your career and all the greatthings that you've done but I
think the definitely the onequestion that I definitely want
to start with is, of course, thewoman of color in retail.
(00:20):
Right, I just think that's thebest place to start, because I
want to kind of put that stickin the ground and what you're
doing and what you're talkingabout, and what's the woman of
color and retail alliance whatis it and what are you?
I know you're trying to changethe world.
It's like pinky in the brain,Like what are you doing tonight,
Kimberly?
I'm trying to take over theworld, Steve.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Wait, I'm trying, yeah, no, I appreciate you
starting there because that islike foremost on my brain, not
just because it's what I'm doing, like 80 hours a week, but
there are so many topics thatare affecting people, and
especially women and women ofcolor, and so the issues that
(01:11):
have come up in every industryas it relates to women, women in
leadership and women of colorin those pipelines.
It's not germane to retail.
However, as someone who hasspent the past 30 plus years in
this industry, it is intimate tome.
(01:33):
I know it, and while I've hadan incredible career and it's
not over, but I've had anincredible career I was in this
industry, steve, for maybe 10 or12 years before I realized that
being a woman of color wasgoing to get in my way Right, I
(01:57):
just hadn't and I just I show upas
myself every day, but once I.
But I'm not naive either, andso when I got into situations
where I knew I was bringing it,I had the receipts, my sales
were happening, my people weregreat, my people were great.
My people were great and Istill was being treated a
(02:19):
certain way.
I started to talk, look forpeers and community, and it
wasn't there, because we're soisolated.
And so, as the years have goneon and you create your small
little personal board ofdirectors and we were talking
and we shared so many differentexperiences and while we were
(02:43):
all women, we were all differentwomen, right, and so, if you
think about it, I think it's agreat thing.
If you thought that the problemwas just for black women, then
you have friends who areHispanic or Asian and you're
having these conversations andtheir stories are almost
identical.
It's just a different person.
And so I was in 2018 and wewere talking and I said you know
(03:06):
, I've been wanting to dosomething about this for a long
time.
I just didn't know what it wasand I honestly didn't know what
other people's stories were,because I was so busy trying to
manage my own.
And so, the more we talked, themore we said well, no, let's
just start simple, we shouldknow each other.
Simple, and we kicked off witha virtual.
(03:30):
By the time we got it alltogether, it was September 20.
And we did a virtual gatheringwe should know each other and it
was beyond capacity.
Incredible People were, youknow, there were tears, there
was, you know, just thisrealization that we need each
(03:52):
other.
But beyond that, there wassomething that really could be
changed with the right focus,with the right allies, and we
said, okay, well, let's figureit out.
And so that's what we've beendoing since then, and it has
grown significantly.
So in three years, you know, wewent from 100 people on a Zoom
to this last year we did it 30events, 12 of them were C-suite,
(04:17):
which was new right, because wesaid, well, hey, let's have
conversations with the peoplewho are knowingly or not
standing in the door ofinclusion.
Have those conversations,understand why, like, what are
you thinking?
How do you see us?
Let's talk about that.
And so that turned into 12dinners across the United States
(04:38):
and in Toronto talking toC-suite leaders in retail so
that we could have theinformation we needed to help
them.
In addition, we've done a lotof partnerships with researchers
, because I am a data-basedprofessional and we have to have
the data and there's a lot ofdata to have Because there, but
(05:01):
it's not usually at theintersections, right.
So we've been doing a lot ofresearch to pull those pieces
together and to write a whitepaper so people could really
understand what is the state ofretail for women of color, why
does it matter, why does itmatter to you and what do we?
(05:23):
You know, walk Retail Allianceplan to do about it, but just to
throw some of the data outthere.
Yeah absolutely, women are 65%of corporate retail workforce,
just 65%.
Frontline 70%, but let's justtalk about corporate.
(05:47):
So 65% of corporate retail theyare 37% corporate retail
leadership and that's vicepresident and above.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Okay, so women of color combined, all women, all
colors, right, all women ofcolor are 6% of that number 6%.
Now here's the thing when westart out as trainee, he's an
entry level.
(06:19):
We start out equal.
They're 18% white women, 18%black women.
When you get to the first level, 10% black women, 20% white
women, and it continues tobifurcate from there.
Right, those numbers cannot beignored.
(06:43):
There's another research I justread the other day, I think it
was from Pew.
It said that if the pipeline tolead trip was open for all
women and that gap closed byjust 15%, that would be an
(07:05):
additional $12 trillion to theGDP.
And yet here we sit.
So that's what the Walk RetailAlliance is based on.
It's based on those numbers,making sure that we are
constantly seeking, updating andchanging the numbers.
(07:26):
And so last year was the firsttime we were really able to
track what our programming haddone, and as a result of our
programming, because ourprogramming is, as I said, the
C-suite dinners, but we alsohave level appropriate
programming.
That is networking, it'slearning.
We do workshops, careerstrategy workshops and panel
(07:48):
discussions, and it's alwaysaround networking and we always
curate who's going to be in theroom.
No-transcript we had by I thinkit was by December 1st 23, five
women who were actually able tomove up in stations as a result
(08:12):
of coming to our events andmeeting people, because we
should know each other and alsounderstanding how to be
strategic in their career.
And so we had one who becameSVP, two became AVPs right.
So now we're moving, we'redoing what?
we said we want to do, we'regoing to get them into the
leadership pipeline.
And there are also challengesthat women of color face,
(08:37):
through microaggressions or selfyou know, just like second
guessing them, and it's alwaysoh, you did that, that was great
.
Now here's another hurdle.
Show me you can do that.
Show me you can do that.
And there was a.
There were two young women whohave been promised some things
and then every time there wastime to discuss it, oh, but you,
(08:58):
you did these 10 things, butyou didn't do this a lot.
And so they were actually ableto get into much better
situations and now they're doinglike international business
with a company.
So I'm very proud of that andI'm looking forward to scaling
that as we continue.
You know, 24 is going to be apivotal year for us.
We are going on the road, we'vemade some incredible new
(09:21):
partners and you know that's howwe grow.
It's all about collaboration.
I'm when FUBU was a brand I wasreally proud of Damon Great.
I was at Foot Locker and we gotto sell it and I was really
happy.
But that as a concept forpeople who are trying to really
(09:42):
make a difference doesn't reallywork.
It's, you know, because,especially if it's a situation
you didn't create.
There's no way that you can fixit without having allies who
have actually been moreinstrumental in creating the
issue, and so partnership isvery important to us.
You know, our vision for thefuture is, you know, women of
(10:08):
color.
Elevated right, cs elevated.
The C suite needs to bediversified and then the
industry will change.
It will naturally change, it'llget bigger because, you know,
it's about economic empowerment,it's about professional
advancement, but it's reallyabout, and it's really about all
(10:30):
women.
You know, and I know thatoftentimes people will say, well
, we're for all women, so okay,well, let's talk about, let's
see your numbers.
And when you say that 37% ofleadership is women but only 6%
is six groups, then you're notfor all women, but we are,
(10:51):
because that's the only waywomen will rise is if all women
have the same access.
So that's why we're allianceand I'm super excited.
I was on the board and I tookthe leadership role as official,
as official, in January 2.
So, as a January, one becamethe CEO but actually started
working in that capacity inOctober.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
There are three things that I wanted to kind of
like layer in and actually kindof kind of combine.
You talked about pipeline.
You talked about, in thecontext of every level, the
number from a diversity you knowblack and brown goes down.
But then the other part thatyou talked about, which I loved.
(11:35):
You said that you know, as youare having these meetings and
you are dealing with the C suitepeople who are actually sort of
the, the ones who actually aresort of the gatekeepers, if you
will, for for these issues, whenyou have these conversations
with these individuals, are theyactually seeing the issue or is
it because of your conversationthat the light bulb sort of
(11:57):
comes on and they're kind oflike oh, I didn't really
recognize that I actually hadthis problem and now I need to
maybe do something differentfrom any pipeline standpoint and
then also, as they kind of go,as as the leaders go through and
go up the next letter level, Ineed to be doing something
different from an organizationalstandpoint.
Are they?
Are they?
Are they actually getting whatyou're talking about, or is
(12:18):
there is still more work to bedone?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
So both honestly.
But here's an example I wastalking to and this actually
didn't happen in our C suitedinner, but this is the catalyst
for our C suite dinner.
But I was at luncheon and therewas a woman there who is she's
pretty iconic in retail.
(12:44):
She's been in retail probablylonger than we've been a lot.
She's been CEO, she's beeninvestors on the boards, she's a
trailblazer.
And I introduced myself and Isaid I'd love to introduce you
to the walk retail alliance.
And so she said but wait, tellme more about you.
(13:06):
And so I did.
I told her she's like why don't, why don't I know you, like
I've never met you, and I said Idon't know, I don't know.
And she said Well, well, okay.
She said Can we stay in touch?
And I said yes.
I said but let me give you somemore information.
So I shared more data similarto what I shared with you.
(13:28):
This you know last year's.
The data has been updated sincethat book and so we exchanged
information.
She said I'll be right back.
She went and she got someinformation that she wanted me
to have.
She gave it to me and then shecalled me a few weeks later and
she said Kimberly, you've really, you really shook me and I said
(13:49):
how, what?
And she said I have been in mycareer for long, so long, and
I've been committed to making adifference for women in retail,
she said and I have placed womenon boards, I have promoted
women, I'm 100% high women, shesaid.
(14:10):
But after our conversation Iwent back and I did a little
self assessment and I found out,to my embarrassment and
disappointment in myself, that Ihad not promoted or or mentored
(14:32):
a woman of color in 40, someyears.
And I was like Well, you know, Iappreciate your honesty and I
don't want you to feel too badbecause I think you know we
reflect.
We reflect, I said but now thatyou know, I want you to be
active in helping me change that.
(14:54):
You know, and she is awonderful person, but it's those
, and those are the people thatyou know will be helpful because
they really self reflection.
Now, when we had the C sweetdinner, it's, it's.
You know, we hear a lot ofthings like I.
The one thing I've heardrepeatedly is we don't know
(15:17):
where to find them.
So I said Well, that'sinteresting because they're
working for you.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Place number one right Start there.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Let's start there.
But for some reason, three,four, five years in, you stop
seeing them.
But you see other people andand those people's careers have
been nurtured, supported,sponsored, but there's something
about the women of color thatdon't get the same attention.
I said so that's what I wouldtell you start knowing who works
(15:53):
for you because they're there.
Other than that, that's whywe're having these C sweet
dinners, so we should know.
So now you can call me, or youcan call Bernadine, who's one of
our.
You know she's also with walkretail lines.
I said you can call us.
We have a database now of over3000 amazing women of color and
(16:15):
is growing every day, and sothat was the next idea for walk
retail lines.
Like we should be recruiters.
Right, Right, Like what, come on, I'll be a hard first one.
Like, we want to make sure youhave what you need.
So, as we are meeting you, weknow, Okay, this person needs
(16:35):
this training over here, thisperson needs a mentor to help
them over here, this person'sready to just need exposure.
Those are the things that arereally important.
But those, those comments,that's what we hear.
C sweet I have not heard.
I've heard this, but not withour C sweet dinners.
But I've heard Well, we wantthe best, which you know always
(16:57):
just makes me happy here thatpeople are thinking that we
can't have the best because theydon't understand the concept
that the more diverse yourtalent pool, the more options to
have to really have the bestand understand what the best
(17:18):
looks like, because it's not acolor and it's not a gender,
it's a thing that people bringwith.
And so if we can get peoplebecause I can't change racism
and I can't change what was it?
Gender discrimination?
(17:40):
I can't, I can't change thatbut what I can do is make it
more difficult for people to saythose things and they have to
be proven wrong, Right, so I canhelp the candidate and I can
help the company that isinterested in being, but the
ones who aren't.
(18:00):
Honestly, they're just going tobe left behind.
Right, Because, as you look atthis coming, well, they're here.
Right, Generation Z they'rehere and while there are a lot
of things that they didn't getbecause of pandemic and they
need that nurturing they need,they need a little extra help in
(18:24):
how they conduct themselves,how they but what's important to
them is Outstanding and thefact that they are willing to
die on a sword for your cause.
It has to be what's importantto them for them to walk into
your building to work for you,and they're very talented and
intelligent and just curious.
(18:45):
If you can't make anenvironment that they can see
themselves being successful in,you will lose out 100%.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It's interesting I'm and we're gonna move into some
leadership.
You know perspectives here In asec.
But when I, when I heard yousay the word we want the best,
it's almost, it's very.
It seems like code.
For I remember the word that alot of companies used to use,
word fit, and you know, culturalfit.
Are they a fit?
And it was that for me In myretail experience, that of what
(19:20):
that was code for.
You know, do they fit withinthe organization, whether it's
from a, you know, you know, racestandpoint?
They wouldn't say it that wayand when it wouldn't actually be
that overt.
But that's actually what they,that's what they really meant.
And it's interesting that nowthe I feel like some of that
terminology I've heard this,I've heard someone else say that
same phrase that you just saidwe just won't, we just want the
(19:42):
best.
And what does that really mean?
Whose definition are you usingof best right?
What are the parameters of bestright?
And then, more importantly,what are you actually doing To
cultivate the best?
And I don't think you knowthose two are Really necessarily
happening and what we're seeingout there in a lot of instances
, leadership is like yourbackbone, I mean.
(20:05):
I mean when I think about when I, when I first heard about you
and you know I just did my duediligence, so you probably saw
me like all on your LinkedInprofile I was like, okay, who
was this young me?
I got it, I got, I got a figure, I got to figure this thing out
.
I went to, I went to school onyou and everything that you've,
that, that you've done, ofcourse, and then, as CEO of a
(20:27):
bumper shot right, that is notthe that was at the beginning of
you know, of your, of yourleadership.
When you think about I'm gonnatalk, take from a broad
perspective and then kind ofdrill down.
When you think, look at thelandscape of leadership we just
kind of talked a little bitabout diversity and women of
color.
But when you just think aboutretail leadership in and of
(20:48):
itself you just came from NRF,things like that what's what's
missing in in in retail?
Because I have my ownperspective, I have my own
thoughts, because I don't feellike the retail industry pays
enough attention to the actualretail leader.
I'm a different place in theforefront.
But I want to get your ownperspective and I try to lead
(21:10):
the witness here.
But that's just my own thought.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well, no, I mean, yeah, I think you're spot-on
right.
When I, when I came into theindustry, I was fortunate enough
to come in through Macy'sexecutive training program and
at the time you know that waslate 80s and it was it was a
Well known that Macy's executivetraining program was like the
(21:34):
Harvard of retail and there were, there were several, you know,
lauren Taylor had theirs,blooming Dales but what was
special about the Macy'straining program is that it
taught you to be a merchant andso and, and it's also taught you
what a merchant was, and so amerchant is a business leader,
(21:57):
right.
So you are building yourbusiness and and it teaches you
all the connections and you know, you ran your business and so,
by having that background, whenI moved on to Express, which was
very entrepreneurial and it wasspecialty store and it was at
the beginning stage, like youknow, it was 91 92 Again, you
(22:22):
were responsible for yourbusiness.
So you had to understand theseare people who I have to work
with.
This is what it needs to looklike.
These, this is what successlooks like.
I'm negotiating, I'm findingthe product.
You know, I'm working directlywith my stores, even though I'm
not responsible for stores.
If I want my product to sell, Ineed to have relationships with
(22:45):
my store people because I needto know why isn't selling what?
What should be doing all ofthat?
So now let's fast forward totwo thousands those of us who
were in those leadership rolesor those training programs who
led to leadership roles.
We're doing well because we'vehad that training.
By the time you get to, like the2005, 2010, those programs
(23:10):
aren't the same.
They're very siloed and amerchant in title is Not
necessarily a merchant becauseyou're just picking right.
So now you, you don'tnecessarily know how to run a
business.
You know how to select yourproduct and your customer
relationship has kind of goneaway because you sit in your
(23:32):
office and so then it's astoryline versus the corporate
Organization, as opposed tounderstanding that this is one
brand.
And then you so your leadersStart to reflect this new way of
doing business.
Oh, it's very interesting towatch because I don't think I'm
(23:55):
old.
But when you know, when you'reinterviewing or you know called
about these jobs like I had aconversation not too long ago
with a recruiter you said youknow Kimberly Two years ago, the
fact that you have beenpresident of these brands as
well as worked for L brands andMace and had Macy executive
(24:17):
training experience, would havebeen automatically in door.
Now, these new brands, withthese new younger leaders who
don't know anything about whatretail is supposed to be and
where those connections weresupposed to be, they want
someone who is digital, who hasdone something innovative.
(24:37):
Now, to my benefit I waspresident of Bandir so they're
like yes, you know how to youknow still, but most people
don't, and so we those are the.
They kind of been put out topasture because this pendulum
has swung to it.
You had to be digitally nativeand how do we find all the you
(25:00):
know?
How do we find all these people?
That is a disservice to theindustry, because no business,
none, none, steve, there's not abrand out there who isn't
selling to people.
And so what?
How can you be successful in aconsumer, hyper consumer focused
(25:25):
industry if all of your focusis on algorithms and it's cost
of acquisition?
How are you retaining thiscustomer but you're not
interacting with the customer,so you don't even know what
they're, who they are, what theywant, right, and I think that's
(25:45):
that's what I think is a bigproblem with leadership, because
they have not been taught howto lead people and a business.
They've been taught how to readthe numbers and react to those
numbers and create influencerstrategies and all these things
that you can see.
They're just waning.
Yesterday I was talking to aformer colleague who is in the
(26:12):
Celebrity and sports influencerbusiness and doing Hella great.
I Just happened to reach out toher, ask a question yesterday
and she's like oh, I lost my jobtoday and I said what I just
talked to you you have this bigthing going with you know this
big celebrity.
She's like, yeah, and thenOctober 7th, and Now those
(26:38):
people, those celebrities,sports stars, they're all.
They all have an opinion andwhen they put their opinion out
there Then it becomes a problemfor the brand.
So these three brands who werehuge, like they did an event,
one event that cost a milliondollars, and they've decided
(27:00):
they don't want to do influenceranymore because it's dangerous
to the brand.
So now, if you are a leader whoall you know is that and you
don't know how to really connectwith your customer, how can you
be successful, right?
(27:21):
And how do you lead a teamwhere you don't have the
experience of having humancontact and you know, just like
having people embrace a commoncause, which is whatever the
brand you're selling, but it hasto be, it has to be some
(27:43):
emotion to it, right?
Because even brands, brandsthat lead with function, don't
do as well as brands that leadwith emotion and community and
all those things.
Right, we were talking aboutSamsung and Apple In the United
States.
Samsung leads with function,right, so we know they're
incredible.
(28:04):
Their function is incredible,right, was their market size
compared to Apple in the UnitedStates.
So those are the things I thinkare missing, and I don't know
if you've seen the same thing,but I just think that it's very,
very short-sighted approach100%.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
No, you're spot on when the individuals that I see
coming through from a coachingstandpoint there's two sides of
it.
They're the executive who'sbeen with the company for 15, 20
years and they are so heavilytied to that I think you and I
(28:48):
had this conversation before.
They are so heavily tied tothat brand and now they are
trying to become Kimberly Minorand understand what you want to
stand for and they don't know.
They're like I don't reallyknow what I stand for.
It's because I've been soheavily tethered to this company
and so trying to help them kindof decouple themselves and
(29:09):
really find out who they reallyare and what it is that they
want to stand for.
And then you go to the otherend of the spectrum where you
have the younger leaders who arecoming because they do have
created a really good onlinepresence, they understand
digital, but they don'tunderstand, they don't have the
business acumen, they don'tunderstand data literacy, they
(29:30):
don't understand how to havejust a one-on-one conversation
in order to provide feedback.
And so you have these twodifferent ends of the spectrum
from a leadership standpoint andthere is this massive gap that
really needs to be addressed,and I know that's what your
organization is doing isaddressing that gap on both ends
(29:51):
.
The interesting thing is thatwhen I think about, just like a
lot of people, my retail careerstarted I was in accounting,
hated it.
I lasted probably six monthsand I remember I was thrown into
a district manager and trainingprogram with Caribou Coffee and
(30:12):
, like I told him, I said Idon't know anything about coffee
.
I have no clue about coffee.
In college I was a Mountain Dewguy.
But he said you know what, youhave business acumen.
You understand how businessworks.
And then in the Air Force I hadoversight for two different
planes and so you understand howto lead people Right, and so I
(30:33):
didn't think about thosetransferable skills and I've
leveraged that my entire career.
And I think that's what we'remissing to your point is that
ability to be able to take dataand make a decision but also
understand how people play arole within that decision that
you're going to make and notalso making sure that you're
able to lead people effectively.
We are missing the humanconnection.
(30:53):
It's talking to someone in ourcommunity.
We have a learning calledLearning Labs.
These are one hour, intensifiedlike programs, and we're doing
one generative AI for retailleaders.
And it's interesting becausethe individuals who I've been
talking to around this AI islike Steve, I have no clue.
(31:15):
Like I hear my boss talkingabout it, I can hear think about
it in principle, but what doesthis really mean to me?
So just kind of further yourpoint around, like when you
think about the data and youthink about all these different
things, the leader has to beable to kind of translate that
and turn it into and internalizeit and then be able to educate
(31:36):
other people.
I think that's a massive piecethat's missing right now in the
retail leadership.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Well, you know what's interesting?
What we have in common is thatwe didn't come to retail by
retail Right.
My degree is in radio,television and film, with a
minor in art, dance and speech.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Really Malagachia.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Right.
And the recruiter who was oncampus, he was relentless.
So, kimberly, you're going tosign up for that test yet no, no
, I have no interest in retail,because what I knew about retail
I had no interest in.
I was not working on the floor,right, I was like yeah no no, I
(32:24):
don't.
I said I didn't study retail,I'm not your person, sorry.
So he would talk to me everytime he saw me, like it was in a
sack.
So finally, I was talking to mydad and I was like this guy
just went home and my dad waslike well, you're not going to
be a starving artist.
Like well, so what do you planto do with this?
You know, you got offered a jobin some place in like North
Dakota.
(32:44):
I don't see you doing that,right?
And I said yeah, I'm not sure.
I said I'm going to go to gradschool.
I'm not sure.
And he was like well, I thinkyou should get sure, because I
think you think about having ajob.
You can go to school whileyou're working and I think you
should just take the test.
And I said, but why?
(33:05):
He said but you've always beenentrepreneurial.
Right, I had my first businesswhen I was 12 and I was catering
for my mom's friends.
Right, I've always beencreative.
Like telling the story hadbackyard you know his backyard
theater, like the summer theaterthings.
You hang up a, you hang upsheets off the side and you
(33:25):
write a play, like I used to dothat stuff all the time I was
that person post child for thegeek, you know like, oh, we're
going to do, and I was.
I danced, you know.
I was on stage, like all thosethings.
I did art, I had an art show, Ihad hurt my knee and I couldn't
dance, and so I was like, mom, Ihave to do something.
And she's like, okay, what doyou want to do?
(33:47):
I said, well, I love to, I loveart.
She's like, yeah, I know.
Oh, well, there's art school,let's see if you can get in.
You had to be 12 to get in,nine, but I passed the test and
so they let me in.
And so I've always just had avery diverse background, lots of
interest.
(34:08):
And when I finally said, yes, Ithink his name was Rick and I
said, okay, okay, rick, fillet,take the test.
And we, you know, after I tookthe test and I had a very high
score, we were talking and hesaid you know, here's why,
here's why I saw how youinteract with people, and they
(34:32):
were all people and you hadsomething of interest to say to
all of them.
And he said to me that is whatretail, retail, is how we tell
stories and how we connect witheach other, and we can do it
through products, we can do itthrough the marketing, but it's
a connoisseur and the fact thatyou have all these different
(34:53):
interests means you haveinterests in different people,
which is what makes a reallygood merchant and retailer,
because you don't have a pre, aprethought, right you, there's
no prejudice.
It's like oh, that's the personwho's different than the person
I met five minutes ago.
That's cool, who are you, andso you know.
(35:15):
I say that to say that's what Ithink also might be missing a
little bit, because we we havedivided and taken teams and make
judgments very quickly aboutpeople that we don't know and
we're not open to get to knowthem.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
My good friend Torben , over in the Netherlands.
He and I were just having thisconversation the other day and
he was a vice president for Nikeand was over here in the States
for a long period of time andthen moved back over.
He's from the Netherlands, buthe lives in Amsterdam right now
and we were talking about this,talking about leadership, and he
(35:54):
said, steve, you know, the onething that I feel is missing
very soon to what you said isthe ability for me to have a
conversation and to learn aboutthe person that's right in front
of me.
Like how do I move, remove theblinders, remove all this other
stuff and really just be curiousabout who you are as a person,
as an elite and as an individual?
And then, how can I help you?
(36:17):
What, after I'm learningsomething about you, what can I
do to actually help you?
What can I do to not justadvance your career right,
because that's that I thinkhonestly.
I think those are some of theeasy parts, but it's like, how
do I help you become better atwho you are?
Right?
I think we you and I are bothbeen very fortunate in our in
our careers to have had someamazing, amazing, amazing
(36:39):
leaders and mentors who you know, you know, in our lives.
I had a question here, one ofthe things that, oh, here's a
question I had.
Here's a question.
I'm going to cut this up inpost.
Were you a reluctant leader?
Where you are a reluctantleader, did you always?
You know, because I think a lotof when people see you right,
(37:01):
they see you on stage and theysee you having a conversation
and they're like man, kim Leewas probably like she, probably
like you know, you know at youknow, talk to the doctor like,
hey, don't, don't you slap me.
Like you know, when you wereborn, it was like, hey, let me
tell you something aboutyourself.
Right, like you were, like youwere born like a leader, or were
(37:23):
you a reluctant leader?
You kind of like morphed andmoved into this role.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I wish I could say I was reluctant leader.
But it's good yeah.
I know you're a friend of minefrom elementary school.
This weekend because I've beenasked by my high school to endow
a scholarship, and I wastalking to a friend and we
(37:51):
hadn't talked in a while, like Iactually had been 15 years, and
she said something that it hitme a certain way.
So we were talking about abunch of stuff and and where I
grew up it was a suburb ofPhilly very few black people
thinking it was too bad in ourschool.
(38:12):
And when the woman who hadreached out to me when I told
her what I wanted thescholarship to be about and who
it was for, she was like, well,I want your scholarship to be
successful and you know, theyjust don't seem to come out for
(38:32):
scholarships.
So I was like, who is that?
I knew that my friend worked atthe high school, right, and so I
reached out and I was like okay, so this is the feedback I've
gotten, but this is what Ireally want to do.
I want this money every year togo to a woman of color who
(38:54):
wants an education but doesn'tknow what she wants to do.
It's like that's amazing.
Like that's amazing.
No adult has said it's okay notto know what you want to do and
I said right, but that's what Iwant.
And she got quiet and she saidokay.
So I said to say this, becauseI've known you since you were
(39:14):
five she's like how did you?
Just?
She's like you were kind oflike a kick-ass kid and you just
were like this is what we'regoing to do, we're going to do
this, and this is why she said,and you get in that way your
whole life and like whensituations happen, you're like,
okay, so let me just recap.
(39:35):
So here's where we had theproblem, so let's just fix that.
And so when I was in school,you know, I was president of my
class, I was president ofstudent government in my
community organizations and youknow, but I never really here's
the thing, steve I never steppedup or said I want to do that.
(40:01):
It would always come like hereare the nominees, like before
you even think about it, andthey're like okay, kimberley's
been nominated, right.
So I guess, while I feltcomfortable I've always felt
comfortable in that space I'vealso been supported by people
who see me in that role andrespect me to be a leader who
(40:24):
would do the right thing forthem.
And that's what she was talkingabout too, because I said
there's still some issues.
There sounds like there areissues.
I guess they still exist whereneighborhood politics like you
live in the neighborhood withall white people and then I live
(40:44):
in the neighborhood that's nearthe railroad tracks, and so I
feel bad about myself.
And what Kimmy said was she waslike well, you never cared.
You never cared.
You saw us all as, hey, we'reall in this.
Why are you mad at me?
My mom and dad bought thathouse.
(41:04):
I don't know anything to dowith that house, but I'm here
with you and what do you need?
How can I help?
How can I make this better?
How can I help?
And so I think and I come frompeople like that, you know, I'm
from my mom and dad be thosepeople for other people and in
my community, and I thinkthere's a lot of me.
Who that is, I didn't know.
(41:29):
There was another choice,because I felt like, like I'm
just that person that ifsomething's not right and it
needs to be done, am I going towait for somebody else to do it,
or am I going to start figuringout how to do it and bring
people with me to make it happen.
(41:49):
And I'm more of that.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
That's so good.
That's so good.
I got two more things I want tocover, and everything we just
spoke about is a perfect segueinto you being an adjunct
professor Right, you having thatsurety of who you are, what you
stand for.
You know when you see a problemhey, you know what I see it.
(42:14):
We talk about leadership.
Right, you see and seizeopportunities.
Right, you have that ability todo that.
But now, as an adjunct, right,you are teaching a generation of
leaders or people, students,who may not have that same kind
of like you know understandingof the world, and they may have
(42:35):
to think differently.
How are you able to, or whatare some of the lessons that
you've learned personally fromeducating and connecting with
some of these students that youknow?
You were like, oh, I didn'texpect that this was going to
happen.
I thought I was just going tobe able to share all of my
wisdom.
And here I am.
I'm learning X, y and Z fromsome of these guys and gals and
(42:56):
people at Ohio State University,right?
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, ohio State Fisher School, so let me just
say this Childbirth and teaching20 year olds scary as hell.
I just put it out there.
Not a lot of shaking I will,not a lot of shakes me, but
(43:24):
childbirth and walking into thatclass for the first time shook.
I was shook, right.
I was like, oh, and I'm becauseI did walk in, thinking I know
this, I know this informationand I've done it.
I can bring this and look at 45people, just right.
(43:49):
And so I just I was thinkingabout it and think about it and
I actually called my son, who isalso a senior in college, and I
said I need some advice.
Here's what I'm thinking.
What do you think?
And he was like he is great.
(44:10):
He was like, look, mom, firstof all, you're intimidating as
hell.
Like, just put it out there.
He's like I love you, I'm notintimidated, but sometimes,
right, he's like so you justhave to.
You might want to take a fewminutes to think about that Like
you carry yourself a certainway and everybody who's in your
(44:31):
class has looked you up.
You think about that.
Right, like that's what youbring with you and it's positive
, but you're going to have tomake it almost invisible, right,
bring it, bring it, but notbring it right.
Oh, that's good, john, thankyou he's like and let people
(44:53):
ease into it.
He said you are funny.
You're really funny when youlike the stuff you say you're
like mom right.
He said say that, be that person, don't feel like you have to
put that in a bag.
Just be.
You make people laugh, and welearn things when we are
(45:14):
comfortable, and just like youwould do with Carter or me, and
if we say something that'sridiculous and you're like what,
wait a minute, we need to goback and let's talk about that.
He said that's good.
He said because that doesn'thappen in classrooms.
Most people don't really teach,they put slot.
He says so if you just bringyourself and understand, it's
(45:36):
going to take a while for peoplenot to be intimidated.
It's going to be, it's going tobe good.
And so that's what I did.
Now, most people liked it.
Some people know, but that'sthe way it is too.
But what I've learned?
I learned a lot from mychildren, but what I've learned
(45:58):
from my students is the worldhas really big expectations for
them, but we haven't given themall the tools for them to live
up to those expectations.
And so this is my secondsemester teaching and in my
(46:19):
brand management class here's anexample.
We were talking about brandpositioning statements and how
important they are, and so theyhad an exercise to do and they
were doing, and they alsoeverybody's once in A.
And so they were, like you know, we won, was you know doing
this?
But then, point to you, askedus for 250 words statement on
(46:43):
who we are as a brand.
But when I, when we looked atthe video, it was just a one
liner.
So I said well, there are twoparts to your your assignment
that one refer to existingbrands in the marketplace for
you to create a brand statement.
And then your classmates weregoing to tell you what brand
(47:06):
that was.
And there's two yes, it's 250words statement about who you
are.
Because we're going to createbrand positioning statements on
you.
You are a brand.
And I said has anyone evertalked to you about who you are
as a brand, your personal brand?
One person raise your hand.
I have 50 students thissemester.
(47:28):
One person raise your hand andI said well, have you ever aside
from someone telling you that?
Have you ever considered it?
And they were like well, no.
I said well, tell me why.
I said because when we think ofa brand, we think of selling
you have to sell brand, butwe're not selling ourselves.
I said so what are you doingwhen you go in your job area?
Oh, and then do you haveLinkedIn pages?
(47:53):
Yes, and what's on those pagesif you're not a brand?
And so they're like right.
And so it was just so much funbecause I was like okay, here
are four statements.
I want you to take those 250words, I want you to condense
them into these four statementsI am, I have, I will and I want.
(48:18):
And it was just eye-opening tothem.
And when we came back to classearly, we never really thought
about that because we thinkabout this, right, or you know,
and what I love about them nowthat they're more comfortable
because we're going into ourfourth week class is that they
will ask questions aboutanything.
(48:39):
And I told them at thebeginning I was like if you
don't ask me questions, we'renot going to be friends, like.
I want to ask a bunch ofquestions and they're good
questions and I ask themquestions just for questions.
But I'm also seeing the mostintrovert of students go up to
class a little early to have theconversation, talk about okay,
(48:59):
that's important, or stay afterclass, and I absolutely love
that because they're not gettingthat information anywhere else.
And I thought I said we'regoing to learn brand strategy,
but you're also going to learnhow to leave this classroom and
graduate and go out with theconfidence that you need to be
(49:19):
successful.
And so you know people seem tolike that.
They're also used to coaches.
You know they had an assignmentto do an outline and they came
to the professor do you justwant the outline with the names
and how we're going to approachthis project?
I said yes, nothing else.
(49:40):
I said no, is this not right?
Yes, but they're used to.
And I was like wow, did we dothat?
Did we create these children oryoung people who A don't know
what to expect, but when theyare expecting something, it's a
gotcha.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
That's so good.
That's so good.
We see that professionally,though, too right.
We see that gotcha mentality.
The one thing I love about whatyou said is that I did adjunct
for a number of years and whatwe do now in the campus we do
the majority of all of ourtraining is live right, we have
(50:22):
a couple of you know what wecall learning labs, things like
that, but we actually recordthose live and then they're up
in the community.
There's this thing that it's notnew, but I've kind of sort of
coined the phrase.
It's these moments ofrevelation right that you get,
or that the students get.
Right, that you can't get froman LMS setting.
(50:43):
Right, if you're looking at, ifsomeone who is training and
they're looking at LMS, you knowthat learning management system
and someone you know looking atand they say something awesome,
all you can do is rewind andthen repeat what that person
just said.
You can't go deeper, you can'tgo broader.
There isn't any at that momentof revelation when someone wants
(51:03):
to go deeper and broader justlike you were talking about the
students that were that wouldstay afterwards there was
something that you said in classthat resonated with them so
much they were like I got toknow more about this one.
I got to know more about thatthat's where the real learning
kind of takes place and it getssolidified.
I think so much, so often we somuch surface level training,
(51:26):
education and even conversationsand concepts around leadership
that everybody can talk aboutleadership, everybody can be an
expert.
But really can you actually goa little deeper and actually
help somebody kind of like feelit where they actually want to
move forward?
Because we've talked aboutfeeling.
The last question, the verylast question that I have for
you is your TED talk on failure.
(51:49):
You know I was going to, youknow I wasn't going to let you,
let you, you know, in thisconversation, without us talking
about that, I watched itseveral times, several times,
and you know I love the, the,the, the, the concept around,
around fail and this idea aroundchanging our perspective around
(52:12):
what failure is.
Right.
You've had this and youcontinue to have this
illustrious career right, whereyou started in stores and, and
you know, rocked it out there,crushed it there.
Now you are changing the entiredynamic of the retail industry
with, with women of color, ofretail.
You know alliance, right, andnow you're actually in the
(52:35):
classroom and you're changinglives there, right.
So when you think about the,the, the gravitas of actually
doing a TED talk about failure?
Cool Um, were you nervous aboutthat topic?
And then how did you actuallycome up with that topic?
Because you've had a lot ofsuccess in your career but I'm
(52:56):
quite sure you've had somefailure.
Could you kind of correlate thefact of of the idea around why
you wanted to actually have thatTED talk and then maybe some of
the failures or one failurethat you've actually had to kind
of maybe spurred thatconversation or the dialogue
that you wanted to have for thatTED talk?
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Well, yeah, I mean um , yes.
So when I was contacted to dothe TED talk, um, I was really
surprised that they werecontacting me because I didn't
know how TED talks work.
I watched TED talks but not,and, um, when I was being
interviewed, they were talkingabout the subject matter.
(53:33):
The theme was growth.
And I was like, oh, okay.
So I said, are therelimitations to what you can talk
about?
I'm like no, that's okay.
So I went home because they Iknow, they said we really
enjoyed meeting you, we thinkyou have a presence, that'd be
(53:54):
great.
So I was like what?
What has been my biggestcatalyst to growth?
If I'm honest, I love it, andit's been loss and failure.
And so I was like, okay, butare people going to accept that?
(54:15):
Right.
Cause you know there's so manybuzzwords around like fail fast
and all this stuff.
But if I'm going to do this, ithas to be honest and it has to
be meaningful and I'm hoping, ifit's meaningful to me to
deliver, it's meaningful forothers to receive and um, and
(54:40):
I've had a few like.
I've had some really big lossesand um and failures and you
know, personally I'mprofessional.
I lost my mom at an early age,I had poor miscarriages before I
had my older son, you know, andso I touch on those things in
there.
But I would say that my biggestprofessional failure that has
(55:04):
cattle, I mean it has catapultedme was being fired from Bath
Body Works and it.
You know how when something ishappening and you're like what
am I?
Is this happening?
And then when you just sit init and you're like, oh, I know,
(55:28):
and it doesn't have anything todo with me, and that's what it
was, that's what it was when I,I, I, my, my career at Bath Body
Works was solid.
I added over a billion dollarsto the home business.
My team was outstanding.
(55:48):
I went from leading oneorganization, which was the home
team, as the chief merchant, tobeing SVP over a merchandising
group, I had to build thestrategy group and I had
operations.
I had to create a whole newprocess for the business because
(56:12):
we were shutting down the NewYork office and I didn't know
that was going to be ourresponsibility until I was
called into a meeting.
It's okay, Kimberly, once youmeet, this is what we're doing,
Thank you, and left.
And I was left to figure it allout.
I spoke at the quarterlybriefings because my business
was on fire and I was changingthe way we worked.
(56:33):
And then I got sick and while Iwas out sick, some stuff
happened that I had no nothingto do with, but I was blamed for
it.
And when I came back I was letgo.
And I had never been let go.
I had been a part of a companywhere we had to shut the
(56:59):
business down, but I wasn't letgo.
I was part of that shutdown andthen I had to decide what I
wanted to do next, but toactually just be let go.
And you knew there wassomething else to it, because
what the people were saying toyou in the room didn't make
sense, and I left there.
On that day I went to themovies and I just sat in the
(57:21):
movies and then I went home andI was like you know, I moved my
family for this job and I'mgoing to tell them.
So that's another layer offailure, because now I've failed
.
I got fired.
Now I'm failing as a motherbecause I moved my children from
their friends and farther fromtheir family to be here, and I'm
failing as a partner becauseour lifestyle is based on both
(57:45):
of our careers.
Right, and it just went deep andI had to take some time and
talk to my therapist.
It was great.
She was like, okay, I heareverything you're saying, but
you're bigger than that.
(58:05):
Like you're bigger than that.
So I want you just to sit in it.
Just sit in it and see what youwant to do about it.
And when I sat in it, the moreI sat in it, the more I was got
angry and stopped feeling like Iwas a failure and started to
have this fire because, like Isee very clearly, because after
(58:25):
I was let go, there are only twoother women of color there and
they each were let go, Similarfashions.
So I was like huh.
And then a member of the boardreached out to me and said
everything we've heard about you, all these things you've been
doing were fantastic.
And then you came back.
In the next week you came backand then a week later you're no
(58:48):
longer there.
Why.
I said, well, I don't know why,I can, I can guess.
But and it was just having thoseconversations, steve, and
saying, all right, it's time todo something.
It's time to do something.
And I didn't know what it was,but it was like a fire in me and
(59:13):
I know what this is some BSthat had nothing to do with me
and it is happening to women ofcolor every day, or other women
like there were women who werelet go because of their age.
They didn't say that, but youknew, based on all the stuff
that was going on, and I waslike, yeah, I have to use my
(59:39):
powers for good now and I needto be a truth teller and not
afraid, because I'm not beholdento any of these people and I
think all of this happened forthat reason, because it was.
I remember it was the first, itwas LinkedIn post and it was
about something that happenedand I gave my honest, totally
(01:00:01):
true, like this is some mess andhere's why.
And the woman I worked for atBath and my Work had gone on,
she had moved on before they letme go.
She was the first person to hireBumption and she was like you
(01:00:22):
know, I'm sorry I was part ofsome mess so I didn't even know
about it until it happened, butyou're very valuable and it was
from there.
I got another and then I got VanDeere and I went into all that
with this newfound freedom thatI just I was like, well, I don't
(01:00:45):
think failure is a loss anymore, because all those failures
have has led me here, and everyday I wake up, I can meet new
people, my time is my own, I'mmaking a change in the industry,
I'm mentoring young people.
If that's what that failure hasled to, I am so good.
(01:01:07):
I am so good and I want peopleto understand that.
You know Every experience.
It might feel bad when ithappens, but if you really sit
in it, there's a reason for itand there's a lesson to me learn
.
And if you've learned a lesson,it's not a failure.
It's just not a failure.
But you have to feel it.
You know, I didn't.
I wasn't like yeah, but I alsowas pretty secure as and I teach
(01:01:31):
this to young people now I saidI negotiated my exit before I
walked in the door.
So when they were telling thoselittle stories, I was like,
okay, my attorney already has my.
I'm good.
I just didn't know what wasgonna be next.
(01:01:52):
And it's also just given me thefreedom that I don't have to
chase the next corporate job,because I'm working on something
that's much more meaningful tome now and I would have never
gotten here if it wasn't forback-and-body works.
Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
No, oh my goodness, oh my goodness.
We could go on, but I'm gonnabe extremely respectful over
your time.
Correct Sage you have.
You know what you've created,and this is.
I'm gonna chop this part off,but you, as I was thinking about
this, I said I have like five,six in different episodes Out of
(01:02:32):
this conversation.
I am so excited to actually goahead and get to the editing
part of this conversationbecause I know it is going to
bless so many people.
It's 2024, I'm just sort of thelast who round.
I'm gonna talk about this onetoo.
It's 2024.
What's next?
(01:02:53):
What are your plans?
Q1, q2?
What are like one or two thingsthat you're really gonna be
going after personally, but alsolike from a professional
standpoint, if you will?
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
They may go inside.
So, personally, I'm gonna tellmy age.
I'm a leap year baby, mybirthday is February 29th and I
was born the year of the dragonand this is the year of the
dragon and I have a realbirthday.
So, personally, I'm gonna bepartying for a year Because I'm
(01:03:26):
gonna celebrate me as a personwho's the year of the dragon.
So that's personally.
That's awesome.
Professionally, there's so manythings that just in the past
four months, I've put in thepipeline for women of color
retail alliance that I'm soexcited to just pop off.
So we have a podcast coming,we're working with incandescent
(01:03:50):
media, we have memberships nowright, corporate and visual
memberships and we have somereally cool new partners that
we're gonna be bringing someunique programming to our roster
of offerings.
So I'm super excited about that.
(01:04:11):
And we also just startedworking on our 2025 summit.
We're actually gonna do asummit, and what's cool about
that summit is that it's gonnabe about people.
It's gonna be focused on thesofter side of retail, and so
we'll be looking for partnerswith that, and I know you and I
(01:04:32):
had started that conversation,but we're gonna really do that
so that we can kick it off in 24, because it's gonna happen in
25.
And so, professionally, I thinkthat's what I'm excited about.
I'm also excited my songraduates in May.
Super excited to celebrate thatmilestone with him and see
(01:04:55):
what's next.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
He had so much great stuffgoing on.
I truly, truly wanna thank youfor, dare I say, our friendship.
Right, I know we've connectedseveral times and I know we
haven't connected in person,which is crazy, but we will.
We will very soon.
Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
I'll be in Atlanta.
Oh yeah, I think in Februaryand then definitely in May.
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Oh, okay, well, definitely, we'll definitely
connect then.
But just following your career,you have been an inspiration
and just learning from you andwhat you're doing with your
organization, I've been able toapply several things to what I'm
doing over here as well.
So you are truly an inspirationto not just women of color, but
(01:05:45):
to men of color too, I hope youknow that.
I don't know if anyone's evertold you that, but if not, you
are Just because of yoursteadfastness and who you are
and what you stand for.
There's no wavering in you,there's no guessing in you and
who you are, and there's asurety of conversation and what
(01:06:06):
you're gonna get, and I thinkthat's lost.
It's a lost trait, if you will,of a lot of leaders now, not
who they are, but it is who youare, which is why I asked that
question around where you wereelected leader.
I kind of knew the answer, butI just wanted to get your
perspective on that one.
I just want to thank you somuch for your time and for
(01:06:28):
everything that you've done forfor the retail industry and also
for myself as well.
I thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Thank you, steve.
It's been a pleasure to be heretoday and it's been a pleasure
to get to know you, and I'vebeen able to reach out to you
about some personal things andalso put you on the list of our
advisors for Walker.
I didn't know if you knew that,but you are.
And I'm surprised because menof color and retail.
They need attention.
Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Yeah, just a little bit, Just a little bit, just a
little bit.
That's a whole anotherconversation with you on that
one too.
But you're 100% correct.
Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
All right well, thank you.
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